UNCLASS 1 I FIED PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE, joint with the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM and the COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGToN, D.C. DEPOSITION OF: CHRISTOPHER ANDERSON Wednesday, October 30, 2O1.9 Washington, D.C. The deposition in the Capitol Visiton Centen, above matten was held commencing at 2:37 p.m. UNCLASS I EIED in Room HVC-304, 2 UNCLASS I E]ED Pnesent: Repnesentatives Schiff, Himes, Sewel1, Quigley, Swalwe11, We1ch, Demings, Nunes, and Stefanik. Also Pnesent: Representatives Cicilline, Espaillat, Jondan, and Meadows. UNCLASS I E]ED Penny, 3 UNCLASS I FIED Appeanances: Fon the PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE: Fon the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM: UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS Fon the COMMITTEE 0N IEIED FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Fon CHRISTOPHER ANDERSON: MARK J. MACDOUGALL ABBEY MCNAUGHTON AKIN GUMP STRAUSS HAUER Robert S. Stnauss 20Ot K Stneet, & FELD, LLP Towen NW Washington, D.C. 2OO06-LO37 UNCLASS I FIED 4 UNCLASS THE CHAIRMAN: Good monning, Mn. House Penmanent 5 ] FIED Andenson. And welcome to the Select Committee on Intelligence, which, along with the Foneign Affains and 0vensight Committees, is conducting this investigation as pant of the official of impeachment inquiny of the House Representatives. Today's deposition is being conducted as pant of the impeachment inquiry. In light of attempts by Depantment of State and the administnation to dinect you not to coopenate with the inquiny, the committee had no choice but to compel youn appeanance today. We thank you fon complying with the duly authonized congnessional subpoena, as othen cunrent and fonmen officials fnom acnoss the Federal Govennment have done. is a caneen Foneign Senvice officer. He senved at Embassy Kyiv fnom 2OL4 to 20L7 and as the Special Advison fon Uknaine Mn. Andenson Negotiations fnom August 2OL7 to JuIy 2Ot9. Mn. Andenson, we thank you fon youn senvice. youn testimony today, including youn knowledge key policy discussions, meetings, of We look fonwand to and involvement in and decisions on Uknaine that nelate dinectly to areas unden investigation by the committees. This includes developments related to the necall of Yovanovitch; the Pnesident's July 25, 2019, call with Ambassador Uknainian Pnesident Zelensky; as well as the documentany necond that has to light about effonts befone to get the Uknainians to announce come publicly investigations into the two aneas Pnesident Trump asked President Zelensky to punsue: the Bidens and Bunismal and the conspinacy theony UNCLASS ] FIED 6 UNCLASS I EIED about Ukraine's punponted interfenence in the 2016 elections. will also have questions about the Depantment's We nesponse to the impeachment inquiny, including the committee's subpoena, which the Depantment continues to defy despite the fact that alneady collected significant documentary evidence heant of we know that it goes has to the oun inquiny. Fina1ly, to nestate what intenviews, Congness I and others have emphasized will not tolenate in other any nepnisal, thneat of nepnisal, on attempt to netaliate against any U.S. Govennment fon testifying befone Congness, including you on any of official youn colleagues. It is distunbing that the State Depantment in coondination with the White House have sought to pnohibit Depantment employees coopenating with the inquiny and with Congness and have tnied what you can say. This public senvants like you fonwand to testify and is unacceptable, fnom to limit and, thankfully, consummate have demonstrated nemankable counage in coming tell the tnuth. to committee counsel to begin the intenview, I invite Ranking Member Nunes to make any opening nemanks. Befone I tunn MR. NUNES: I thank the gentleman. Mn. Andenson, you haven't been hene fon previous intenviews, but we've had a challenge with the majonity intennupting the questionens side. We expect and hope that you will not be coached by the majority and will answen all the questions that you ane asked. Hopefully -- the majonity, I heand, the last nound was fairly on the Republican UNCLASS ] EIED 7 F]ED UNCLASS I decent; thene wene not a lot of internuptions. So hopefully that behavion continues. But, with that, Mp. Andenson, welcome, and we thank you fon appeaning today. I yield back. THE CHAIRMAN: MR. GOLDMAN: THE yield to Mn. Goldman conducted by the have yield t houn I'm sonny. Befone fon This some pneliminany last name Mn. Goldman. we yield the Andenson Select Committee on Intelligence of the Speaken you could please state youn fuII name and speI1 the 24th, 20t9, if necond. MR. GOLDMAN: Along A-n-d-e-n-s-o-n. with othen pnoceedings in funthenance of the inquiny to date, this deposition Foneign I will announced by fon the Intelligence houn, logistics. MR. ANDERSON: Chnistophen Jonathan Andenson, by the t is a deposition of Chnistophen to the impeachment inquiny Mn. Andenson, to to do the House Penmanent House on Septemben youn now CHAIRMAN: 0h, MR. GOLDMAN: punsuant I I Committee is pant of a joint investigation 1ed in coondination with the Committees on Affains and Ovensight and Refonm. In the room today ane majonity thnee committees, and this will of counse may ask questions staff be a and minonity staff fnom all staff-Ied deposition. Membens duning thein allotted time, as has been the case in eveny deposition since the inception of this investigation. My name is Daniel Goldman. I'm the dinector UNCLASS IEIED of investigations 8 UNCLASS I FIED fon the Intelligence Committee's majonity staff. And I want in today fon this deposition. Let me do some brief introductions. To my night is to thank you again fon coming Nicolas Mitchel1, senion investigative counsel fon the Intelligence Committee's majonity staff, who will be conducting most of the intenview today. And now I'11 1et my counterpants in the minonity intnoduce themselves. MR. CASTOR: Steve Castor with the Republican staff of the Oversight Committee. I MR. GOLDMAN: This deposition will be conducted entinely at the -I unclassified leve1. Howeven, HPSCI secune spaces and secunity cleanances. the deposition is being conducted in in the pnesence of staff with appropniate hJe that youn attonneys also have understand thein secunity clearance. It is the committee's of you nor answens pnovided by you infonmation classified expectation that neithen questions asked will that is cunnently on at requine discussion of any any point could be pnopenly unden Executive Order L3526. You ane neminded that E0 L3526 states shall infonmation be classified, continue UNCLASS ] FIED that, quote, "in no case to be maintained as 9 UNCLASS ] F]ED classified, on fail to be declassified, " unquote, for the purpose of of concealing any violations penson on If law on pneventing embannassment of any entity. of any oun questions can only be answened with classified infonmation, please infonm us of that, and we will adjust accondingly. Today's deposition of the sensitive because and matenials that will is not being taken in executive session, and confidential natune of be discussed, access some but of the topics to the tnanscnipt of the deposition will be limited to the thnee committees in attendance. Unden staff the House deposition nules, no Memben of Congness nor memben today. any of the testimony you pnovide will have an oppontunity to neview the can discuss the substance You and youn attonney tnanscnipt after today's deposition. Befone we begin, deposition. We will I'd like to go over some gnound nules fon the be following the House negulations fon depositions, which we have pneviously pnovided to your counsel. The deposition given t houn will pnoceed as follows. The majonity to ask questions; then the minonity will be given will t Theneaften, we will altennate back and fonth between majonity be houn. and minonity in 45-minute nounds until questioning is complete. will take peniodic bneaks, but if please let us know. We Unden you need a bneak the deposition nu1es, counsel fon othen at any time, pensons on government agencies may not attend. You ane penmitted to have an attonney pnesent during UNCLASS I F]ED this UNCLASS I deposition, and I see counseL could please that you have bnought two. At this time, if state thein MR. MACDOUGALL: Mank D.C., fon Mr. 10 FIED appeanance MacDougall, Akin fon the Gump necond. Stnauss, Washington, Andenson. MS. MCNAUGHTON: Abbey McNaughton, Akin Gump, Washington, D.C. MR. GOLDMAN: Thene is a stenognaphen taking down everything that is said hene today in orden to make a wnitten necond of the deposition. Fon the necond to be cIean, we'd ask that you please wait until each question is completed befone you begin youn answen, and we will wait until you finish youn nesponse befone asking you the next question. The stenognaphen cannot record nonvenbal answens such as shaking youn head, so it is audible, verbal We ask that impontant that you answen each question with an answer. you give complete replies to questions based on youn If a question is unclear on you are uncentain in youn nesponse, please let us know. And if you do not know the answen best necollection. to a question You may on cannot nememben, simply say so. only nefuse to necognized by answen a question the committee. the basis of pnivilege, staff If may you nefuse to pnesenve a pnivilege to answen a question on eithen pnoceed with the deposition on seek a nuling fnom the chainman on the objection. If the chair ovennules any such objection, yoU are requined Fina11y, you are neminded that it is to answen unlawful the question. to delibenately of Congness or staff. It is impenative that you not only answen our questions truthfully but that pnovide false infonmation to Members UNCLASS I FIED 11 UNCLASS you give fuII and complete answens I FIED to all Omissions may also be considened as As this deposition is and nothing but that false of you. statements. oath, Mn. Andenson, would you please right hand to stand and naise youn Do you swean unden questions asked be swonn? youn testimony hene today will be the whole tnuth the tnuth? MR. ANDERSON: MR. GOLDMAN: I dO. Let the necord neflect that the witness has been sworn. And you may be seated. Now, Mn. Andenson, if you have an opening statement on youn attonney has any intnoductory mattens to discuss, now is the time. MR. MACDOUGALL: Mn. Chainman, befone Mn. Andenson begins his I'd like to make a bnief statement fon the record. Christophen Andenson is a careen Foneign Senvice officen who served as Special Advison fon Uknaine Negotiations until JuIy 12th, testimony, 2019. 0n October 28th, his lawyens, wene 2@1-9, Mr. Andenson neceived a letten, thnough fnom Under Secnetany of State Brian Bulatao in which we instnucted that Mn. Andenson cannot panticipate in the impeachment inquiny being conducted by the House of Repnesentatives and these committees. Unden Secnetany wene issued punsuant Bulatao's letten stated that these instnuctions to a dinective Counsel. Nonetheless, Mn. fnom the Office of White Andenson has been senved UNCLASS I FIED House with a valid 72 TF]ED UNCLASS subpoena, and so he is obliged to be hene today. to all of the to the best of his ability, I need to addness While Mr. Andenson is pnepared committee's questions to respond at the outset. A gneat deal of attention has been dinected to the infonmation one consideration submitted to the Office of the Inspecton Genenal of the Intelligence to Community by an unnamed govennment employee pursuant Intelligence Community Whistleblowen Pnotection Act. the Mn. Andenson is not the whistleblowen. As the committee is well awane, the govenning statute associated negulations penmit whistleblowens is to and pnesenve thein to nespect in his testimony today the Iega1 standards and equities that pnotect whistleblowen anonymity in the Intelligence Community. So, to the extent we neasonably conclude that any questions dinected to Mn. anonymity. Andenson We this believe that Mn. Andenson objections and With to assist aftennoon ane intended the identity of the whistleblowen, obligated we will anyone in establishing make the necessany will give the witness appnopniate instnuctions. that, Mp. Andenson has a bnief opening statement. Thank yoU, Mn. Chainman. MR. ANDERSON: Thank you. Mn. Chainman and Ranking Memben, thank you to pnovide I this statement today. have senved as a Foneign Senvice since 2005. I for the oppontunity have spent most of officen in the State my careen senving UNCLASS I FIED in Department countnies on UNCLASS 13 I FIED the penipheny of the Russian Federation, including Mongolia, Anmenia, and, most necently, Uknaine. Oven the last 5 yeans, I advance oun nationaL secunity have wonked in Kyiv and Washington to intenests by promoting a peaceful nesolution to the conflict in eastenn Uknaine, countening Russian aggnession, and defending the pninciple that intennational bondens should not be changed by fonce. It has been a pnivilege to senve oun country and promote oun nationaL intenests on such an impontant foneign policy lssue while wonking alongside dedicated and talented public senvants. effonts have benefited fnom stnong bipantisan My wonk March of netunned in 2@L4, Uknaine began suppont. with a 3-week temporany duty to Kyiv in just aften Russia invaded to Kyiv in These September 2OL4 to and occupied Crimea. I senve as the External Unit Chief in the Po1itical Section of oun Embassy. I senved in Ky;.' fron 2074 to 20t7 and wonked closely with Ambassadon Yovanovitch fnom 2OL5 to 20L7. In August of 2@t7, Advison fon Uknaine Ambassadon Volken asked me Negotiations. I August 2OL7 unt:-l July senved to senve as Special in this position t2th,2OL9. In this nole, I fnom late helped develop negotiating solutions, analyzed Russian and Uknainian ceasefine pnoposals, and pnovided context on the histony of the conflict and past negotiations. f also tnaveled with Ambassadon Volken to the fnont Iines of the conflict to negotiate with the Russians and to Eunopean countenpants. UNCLASS I EIED meet with t4 UNCLASSI FIED 0n Novemben 25th, 20t8, Russia escalated the when conflict furthen its fonces openly attacked and seized Uknainian militany vessels to a Uknainian pont in the Sea of Azov. heading While my colleagues at the State Depantment quickly pnepared a statement condemning Russia fon its escalation, senion officials in the White House blocked it issued. being Ambassadon Volken drafted a tweet from condemning Russia's actions, which I posted to his account. In to meet December 2@:.8, Ambassadon Volken and with EU officials and key assentive European nesponse visit, we met with NATO I tnaveled allies to push to Russia's escalation. Ambassadon Sond1and, who hosted to Bnussels for a mone Duning this a lunch bninging togethen key EU officials fon a discussion on coondinating oun nesponse to Russia's escalation. When Volodymyr Zelensky was elected President Ambassadon Volken and Pnesident could Befone I wene in Apnil, hopeful that a newly empowered Uknainian neinitiate high-Ievel U.S. engagement. the inaugunation in May, my colleagues and I saw a tweet by Rudolph Giuliani alleging that President-elect Zelensky sunnounded by enemies In an effont Ambassadon pushed of Pnesident was Trump. to counten the negative nanrative sparked by Yovanovitch's withdnawal and Giuliani's statements, we fon a high-Ievel delegation to attend Zelensky's inaugunation. Secnetany Penny, Ambassadon Sondland, Ambassador Volken, Alexanden Vindman, and Senaton Ron Johnson tnaveled of a Pnesidential delegation fon the inaugunation. UNCLASS IEIED NSC Dinecton to Kyiv as pant 15 UNCLASS I FIED After the delegation netunned, the panticipants the President on the tnip. Ambassadon Sondland was anrange a meeting with the President fon May wanted to bnief able to quickly 23rd. I panticipated in the prepanatony meeting at the White House, in which we discussed key delivenables that would demonstnate Pnesident Zelensky's commitment to nefonm. focused on thnee key aneas: demonstnating Zelensky's We independence fnom powenful vested interests and punsuing anticonnuption as well as antltnust nefonm; stnengthening U.S.-Uknainian enengy coopenation; and impnoving oun bilateral secunity nelationship, which included Uknaine purchasing key U.S. military equipment. Ambassadon Volken had agneed meeting that the Pnesident to invite Pnesident Zelensky to the White House fon a meeting and would issue a May 29th told me aften the letten shontly. that included an The Pnesident signed a letten on invitation for Pnesident ZeIensky, but the letten did not include a specific date for the visit. 0n lune 13th, I accompanied Ambassadon Volken to a meeting with National Secunity Advison lohn Bolton. In that meeting, Ambassadon Bolton stated that he agneed with oun thnee lines of effont and that he also supponted incneased senion White he cautioned that Mn. Gluliani House engagement. Howeven, was a key voice Uknaine, which could be an obstacle to with the Pnesident on incneased White House engagement. He did suggest that penhaps the Vice Pnesident would be available UNCLASS I EIED 16 UNCLASS I to travel to Tononto to meet FIED with Pnesident Zelensky in eanly July at the Uknaine Reform Confenence that the Canadian Government was hosting. We laten leanned that the Vice Pnesident would not attend the confenence. The monning after the meeting, I sent a bnief Geonge Kent summanizing Assistant Secnetany NSA Bolton's summany message about Mn. laten that day to On my message to Deputy the meeting and relaying Giuliani. I sent anound a mone fonmal State Depantment colleagues. lune 18th, Secnetany Perry hosted a followup meeting at the Depantment of Enengy to discuss how to move fonwand on these thnee key aneas. In pnepanation fon that meeting, colleagues fnom diffenent offices in the State Depantment, the Depantment of Energy, and oun missions in Kyiv and Bnussels worked to develop a joint list of policy outcomes that would demonstnate Pnesident Zelensky's commitment to nefonm and impnove the bilateral U.S.-Uknaine nelationship. In the meeting at the was broad agneement on Depantment of the interagency Enengy on lune 18th, thene fnamewonk neganding policy delivenables. There were some initial discussions about how to delineate the lines of effont among the Depantment of Enengy, the State Depantment, Ambassadon Volken, Ambassadon Sondland, and Ambassadon Taylon, who joined by phone from Kyiv. Thene was also genenal agneement that it would be important to schedule a White House visit was visit quickly, even if the actual date of the aften the Ukrainian panliamentany elections. There wene some vague discussions UNCLASS I in the meeting about how to FIED t7 UNCLASS I addness Mr. Giuliani's continued calls fon a conruption investigation. Aften the meetirg, to discuss the on FIED I spoke atmosphenics with Ambassadon Taylon of the meeting and next in a phone call steps. We agneed the impontance of not calling fon any specifics investigations but othenwise agneed the thnee lines Ambassadon Volken Confenence in wene useful. then led a delegation to the Uknaine Tononto July 1st and officials, including of effont 2nd. We Pnesident Zelensky. Zelensky highlighted pnogness in some met with sevenal Uknainian In the meeting, Pnesident of the key aneas we had identified and pushed fon a date fon a White House visit. schedule a call with Pnesident Tnump in onden nelationship and theneby incnease the chance the White House Reform Volker unged him to to stant building a of secuning a date for visit. I was scheduled to complete my assignment as Special Advison for Uknaine Negotiations on July L2th, 20L9. In the few nemaining days I continued to push my Uknainian countenpants for concnete progress in key nefonm aneas, and the Uknainians nemained focused on scheduling a White House visit, seeing such a visit as a cnitical step in empowering Zelensky in his negotiations with the of my assignment, Russians. My last day with Ambassadon Vo1ken was luly 12th. Cathenine Cnoft was my successon. In closing, I want to neitenate that my colleagues and I in the Foneign Service ane nonpantisan and advance the foneign policy set by oun duly elected leadens. I take that UNCLASS commitment as I EIED well as my oath 18 UNCLASSI FIED to defend the Constitution seniously. Wonking abnoad at times led to to advance harassment and the intenests of the United States intimidation by hostile intelligence senvices, death threats, and othen significant challenges fon and me, but I has my family I believe we ane than ounselves and are wonking to pnomote have accepted these bundens because advancing a cause gneaten the general welfare. Thank you fon your oppontunity to pnovide this statement, and I weLcome youn questions. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I'lI now necognize Mn. Mitchell fon I houn. BY MR. MITCHELL: a Good aftennoon, Mn. Andenson. youn long senvice coming hene and Befone we to this country. testifying get into the I want And we to thank you finst fon centainly appreciate you unden these circumstances today. meat of the topics that we want to coven, could you bniefly sketch out your caneen in the Foneign Senvice fnom to 2Ot4? And, panticulanly, if you could highlight any responsibilities that you had on intenactions you had with Ukraine-nelated mattens duning that time peniod. noughly A 2@o5 Okay. So my finst assignment in the Foreign Senvice was in Buenos Aines, I then went to Mongolia -- Ulaanbaatan, Mongolia, for 2 yeans aften that. And then I went to Anmenia -- Yenevan, Anmenia, whene I worked on tnying to Angentina, doing consuLan wonk. UNCLASS I FIED 19 UNCLASS ] nesolve the And conflict thene in then, fnom thene, I FIED Nagonno-Kanabakh to Kyiv in went fon 3 yeans. March of 2Qt4, and that finst involvement with Uknaine specific. And then, fnom thene -- I was thene fon 3 yeans, and then I came back to D.C. fon 2 was my yeans. a Okay. I to talk to you a little bit finst about youn time in Kyiv fnom 2OL4 through 2017. Can you just generally descnibe want both youn position as well as youn noles and responsibilities? A So f was the head of the Extennal Unit, which is a unit within the Political Section, and that was nesponsible fon addressing aII the typical foneign policy issues, pnimanily Uknaine's nelationship with Russia, with the EU, wlth neighbons, and with intennational onganizations like the OSCE. The pnimany We nesponsibility was in covening the conflict itself. did not have gneat sounces in the Russian-contnol1ed, Russian-occupied aneas, and so netwonk I was nesponsible of contacts and going out to the field imageny and othen nesounces And I would send back fon developing a and also using satellite to assess the conflict. daily updates and in-depth neponts, as well, to key Washington policymakens about what was happening in the conflict. And then I would suppont the Assistant Secnetany's effonts to negotiate with the Knemlin fnom Kyiv as we1l. a Okay. And so how much time, appnoximately, would you spend within the Embassy vensus outside the Embassy doing these neconnaissance effonts? UNCLASS I EIED 20 UNCLASS I FIED A WeI1, I would just -- "neconnaissance" makes it sound mone like I was doing militany wonk, but I take the point. I would spend in the Embassy, with most of the time doing that's why I was sent to the Kyiv, to be out meeting about 3 on 4 houns a day meetings. Because people. So - - a Okay. And when you say you wene out there meeting people, wene you -- that includes Uknainian officials, presumably? A Yes. It included Uknainian officials, included nepnesentatives from the OSCE, wan connespondents, anyone who would -- NGOs -- anyone who would have infonmation about what was going on in the negotiations. Thene was an OSCE office that was responsible fon, like -- it was have called the Tnilateral Contact Gnoup, nesponsible fon negotiating with the Uknainians and the Russians, and meet I would meet with with the Uknainian negotiatons and also with the them. I OSCE would office to figure out what was going on on a daily basis with the negotiations. a Okay. talas one of the topics that you touched upon U.S. security assistance? A OnIy in a veny genenal way. handled secunity assistance, and Thene was a sepanate unit that that was the pol-mi1 unit. And so I was doing more neponting and analysis about ceasefines and the ongoing conflict, they would -- and the Office of Defense Coopenation. So while anothen office would then figune out a Okay. descnibe what So when you how to nespond. said "in a veny general wayr " can you just that genenal waY was? UNCLASS I FIED 2L UNCLASSI FIED A In talking -- when thene was discussion, sont of, discussion about whethen we should pnovide lavelins on big questions, then the Ambassadon would ask me, what do you bniefing with the think? And Ambassadon, what we ca1led I would have a weekly the Minsk update, week, and they would be touching on any bnoad nange the day-to-day management of that issue feII to each of issues. what we called But ODC, Office of Defense Cooperation, and the poI-mi} unit. a Okay. And when you were in Kyiv, duning youn tenune thene wene at least two different Ambassadons. A a A Ambassadon a A a Pyatt Is that conrect? Yes. Who was the finst? Ambassadon Pyatt, leff Pyatt. the second? And Ambassadon Manie Yovanovitch. And did you discuss the issue of the lavelins with Ambassadon ? A Yes. nelationship, But Ambassador mone Yovanovitch I in-depth discussions with had a mone in-depth Ambassadon Yovanovitch. Pyatt had a very clean oplnion fnom the stant, so -- A Okay. When did Ambassadon Yovanovitch finst annive in Kyiv? A I believe it was August of 2015, but I might be off by a month on so. It was 2015. a 0kay. And you lndicated that you had, I think you said, in-depth convensations with Ambassadon Yovanovitch Is that night? UNCLASS IFIED about lavelins. 22 UNCLASS I FIED A Yes. a lust as a genenal matten, can you descnibe the natune of those discussions ? A It it would be was whether on not this would be a good policy, whethen -- there was some debate whethen providing this lethal assistance would be escalatony and would lead to gneaten fighting, on thene was another point of view, which was shaned by many in the Embassy, that it would be a stnong signal to the help Ukraine defend was itself and a moot point since they Russians and it would actually that wonrying about Russian escalation wene escalating on thein own anyway. But we talked about, you know, what did she think the Genman I think the Genman reaction would be, what did I think the Uknainian neaction would be. So those wene some neaction would be on what did of the things we discussed. a Okay. And, ultimately, oven the course of these discussions that you had with the what hen position Ambassadon, did you get a genenal sense as to was? A I think she favoned a stnong secunity think, supported Javelins, but I'm - - that is just assistance and, I my necollection from our discussions, but I'm not certain. a Okay. Did you also engage with Ambassadon Yovanovitch about cornuption genenally? A t{onking in Uknaine, you can't avoid talking about conruption, but not in any substantive way. Thene wene sevenaL other people who dealt with conruption more specifically. UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS a Okay. wonked But working in the Embassy closely with A Yes. a Okay. Ambassadon 23 I FIED -- and it sounds like you Yovanovitch. Is that night? Did you get a sense as to hen position on the in Uknaine? We often fnamed it as if there wene two wans conruption on anticonnuption effonts A Cornuption? going on. One was the wan in the east against Russia; the othen was the wan against connuption. And the wan against cornuption was just as impontant, because even if Ukraine defeated Russia on the battlefield, Russia would win thnough connuption. And so evenyone in the Embassy existential thneat fon saw conruption as almost an Uknaine and pushing back against systems as an essential way of ensuning that the connupt Uknaine would be a stnong and stable aI1y. a A What do you mean, Russia would win thnough connuption? Because we believed in my view, Russia uses conruption as a way to undermine the Uknaine and political to dominance thnough ensune Uknaine stayed -- it within its onbit to exent control and to maintain connuption. And, by doing that, had used connuption to ensune it is able that Uknaine and was not an independent, soveneign countny. that is pantly why the pnotest in the Maidan happened, because Uknaine wanted to be independent and pant of the West, and so And so thene was no way they could achieve that desire and be a good a1ly of the West and partnen with the West if they did not tackle connuption. a Okay. So is it fain to say UNCLASS that thene was a stnong U.S. I FIED policy to help Uknaine tackle A a connuption? Yes. And that was -- counten any sont A a 24 FIED UNCLASS I of one of the neasons fon Russian aggression that was that it would or contnol oven Uknaine? Yes. And was that a policy position shaned by Ambassador Yovanovitch as well? A a By Ambassadon Pyatt and Ambassadon Yovanovitch. OkaY. Ane you familiar with the Pnosecuton Genenal Lutsenko? A I know who he is. I have never met him, and I have not engaged with him on substance on with his office on substance. a Okay. wene you A involved in the 2Qt7/early Ambassador Volken was of lavelins, and he saw that stnengthening the Ukrainian 2@18 deliveny of lavelins? a stnong advocate fon the pnovision as a key effont in ability to nesist oun negotiations, whene Russian aggnession would help encounage Russia to negotiate. -- U.S. suppont fon Uknaine is vital to the negotiating effont, because if Russia does not believe that the U.S. is going to pnessure them about this issue, they will just wait out Uknaine. And they believe Uknaine, left to its own devices, will colIapse. So lavelins was a veny -- the pnovision of lavelins was a veny stnong signal to Russia that we would continue to incnease the cost If thene was a sense that Russia UNCLASS I FIED 25 UNCLASS I EIED to Russia fon this escalation, that they would not be able to win by waiting us out, and that the U.S. was committed to seeing a Uknaine independent and able to choose its own pantnens. So I was, in many ways, Vdlken's nepnesentative to advance that policy, but thene wene specific offices that dealt with it dinectly. But I would nepeatedly weigh Volken was suppontive in and Iet mone people know that of this position. a Okay. And so youn involvement in the pnovision of lavelins changed from the time that you wene wonking at you tnansitioned Ambassadon A Embassy Kyiv to to the Special Advison fon Uknaine Negotiations when unden VoIken. Is that cornect? Connect. a Okay. And that's essentially what you just descnibed. A Connect. a AlI night. So to what extent wene you actually involved in the decision to pnovide lavelins to the Uknainians at the and then eventually half of end of 2@!7 the deliveny of those lavelins duning the finst 2OL8? helped pnovide some top coven to the people, the offices that that and saying, y€s, this Ambassadon was veny wene doing helpful in the negotiations. Volken, as a nepnesentative of the Secnetary, taken veny seniously within the Depantment, especially at a time thene were perhaps not as many confinmed had a veny strong voice. And so, officials ] FIED when as normaL. So he when he would come UNCLASS was in and weigh in 26 I FIED UNCLASS and say, this is veny helpful for oun policy on Uknaine, people took that seriously and they would move it fonwand. But this was a decision that was done both in oun Mititany Assistance in the Political-Militany but then also at the White Buneau Office of House. a Okay. Wene you awane of any hold that was put in place on the provision of lavelins duning this time peniod, the end of early 2Ot8? A I not 2OL7 or know was awane that this specifics about where was it a pnotnacted pnocess, but I did was. a Okay. Did you have any convensations with anyone about the fact that it was a pnotnacted pnocess on whene it was at any given time? A We would endtessly speculate about what was going on, but oun undenstanding was that was happening at levels well above oun pay gnade, so -- a Okay. And did you have a sense of at what level? A It was at the White House, and so -- the White House was opaque, so I don't know exactly what was going on. a A11 night. So when you became Special Advisor 2OL7, was Vol ken fon Uknaine Negotiations in that the finst time that you stanted wonking with Ambassadon ? A I had met him in Kyiv in my last week in the countny. He came out with Secnetany Tillenson. And I think Ambassadon Yovanovitch knew that I would be a good fit to be his advison UNCLASS I FTED and suggested that 27 UNCLASS I help onganize his visit. days I FIED And so I spent about 3 or 4 days, a few with him in August of -- on, sonny, July of 2O!7, helping all the key playens in him meet Kyiv. I think he thought I would be a good fit. And so when I anrived back in D.C., he invited me to take his job. And I initially wonked with him as a -- fnom a detail fnom the Russia desk, which is And so whene f to go, and then eventually cneated a sepanate to be thene for a fuI1 2 yeans. was supposed assignment a For 2 yeans? A Yeah. a Okay. And how closely did you wonk with Ambassadon Volken duning that 2-yean peniod? A Veny closely. I was -- so the only -- I was the only officen in his office. He had a part-time office management specialist. But, at the same time, he is incnedibly expenienced and he knows lot of the key playens, so thene wene lots of things that he would just do dinectly. Fon example, he would be in dinect contact with the Assistant Secnetany, whethen it was Wess Mitchell on Reeken -- Assistant Secnetary Reeken. And so he would have his own a contacts. But he also wonked in a sepanate building, part-time. He was wonking on a So he would basically to come up because he was volunteen basis and worked pant-time. with the bnoad stnategy and then ask implement it. And then when we wene negotiating, he would say, hene's UNCLASS I F]ED me 28 UNCLASS I F]ED -- fon example, we had a stnategy fon how to implement a peacekeeping fonce. And he said, weI1, hene's my overall idea, so I want you to talk to people to develop the details. And then we would what bat proposals back and fonth and nefine ideas And so I would say I worked very closely with him but in a somewhat untnaditionaL annangement, because he was not in the building. a Okay. And you say wonk person as well as through vanious communication A closely with him. hlas it both in different means of electnonic ? Yes. a Including email? A Email. We'd also speak on the phone a Iot, do some WhatsApp messages. And I would stop by his office; he would stop by the State Depantment. tnJe'd often tny to do -- We'd have meetings, and then at the end of meetings I would sont of stay behind to touch base, make in the right dinection. Okay. To the extent that Ambassadon sune we'ne a communicating Volken with these othen individuals with whom was he's developed a netwonk, I think you descnibed A Uh-huh. - would you be copied on those communications on would you participate in any of the calls if thene wene conference cal1s? A - A That was veny topic-dependent. So, often, he would CC me, pantly to make sune that the State Depantment was awane and so that I could make sune othen people wene kept UNCLASS I in the 1oop. But on centain FIED 29 UNCLASS I EIED things, fon example, his contacts with the Assistant Secnetany, would handle that himself and then he bnief me about them as he thought necessany. a A And how would he He would tell me bnief you about them? about them the next time we saw -- when we wene discussing, he'd say, yeah, weII, for example, Mitchell is with this, I've talked with him. 0F, you know, sometimes he would fonwand messages, but mostly he was just telling me on boand the next time we saw each othen. a Okay. And by that, you mean onaIly? A 0na11y, yeah. a And would you memonialize his onal necitations in any way? A No, not unless -- if there was -- occasionally if thene was something that would be sont of an officia] necond on was necessany fon moving something fonwand, I would put it in email and infonm othens about it. But often it would be, "Hey, I've made sune that Mitchell's on boand with thisr" on -- part of what we wanted to make sure was that the diffenent offices wene coondinated, and so he would I've coondinated with this." But it document eveny phone call we had, so -"Yes, a So me, wasn't that we had to Okay. I want to skip ahead to Novemben statement, yoU descnibe an escalatlon A a just tell of 2O18, In youn opening in the conflict. Uh-huh. Can you just bniefly explain what happened UNCLASS I FIED thene? 30 UNCLASS I A FIED Sure. that Thene wene some Uknainian vessels wene tnaveling from the BIack Sea to thein pont in the Sea of Azov. And they wene transiting thnough the Kench Stnait, which is, in the U.S. Government's view, a stnait. The Uknainians -- because pant of it is Cnimea, and pant of it is the Russian Fedenation. And so we considen the Cnimean so it has histonically been pontion to be Uknainian, but it is shaned shaned. But Russia nefused to allow the ships to tnansit the stnait and fined upon and seized the ships and the sailons. This was the finst act of Russian militany ovently fining on this was a dnamatic escalation. They had typically done what I would calI implausible deniability, whene they wene thene openating in eastenn Uknaine but they wouLdn't admit it. And this was an ovent escalation. And, aIso, we believed this happened in intennational watens. Uknainian militany vessels, and so a Okay. And did you have convensations on othen colleagues at the State with Depantment about Ambassadon Volken this incident? A Yes. I mean, this happened the weekend aften Thanksgiving, so a lot of people wene wonking fnom home, but thene was a flunny of activity to tny and make sune we got something out that same day. And our Eunopean colleagues and othens had gotten statements out, and wene tnying to make sune we had we a statement out as wel1. a Okay. And you mentioned that statement in youn opening statement hene. And you indicated that youn colleagues quickly pnepaned a statement condemning Russia fon UNCLASS I FTED its escalation. Wene you UNCLASS 31 IEIED in pneparing that statement? A I think I looked it oven, but I have to say my memony on that is a little bit fuzzy. That was handled by the Uknaine desk, but I was keeping Ambassadon Volken in the loop on that. a Okay. And was he suppontive of such a statement? A Veny. involved a A a And wene you? Yes. Did you know of anyone within the State Depantment who was not suppontive of issuing the statement condemning Russia for its escalation A ? Not that f'm awane of, but then I was dealing with the Uknaine desk, so -- a senion And then you also indicated in youn opening statement that officials in the White House blocked this issued. What do you know about that? A I was looking thnough my notes and nemember how Volken statement fnom being I leanned emails, and I don't this, but I did send a message to Ambassador that evening that the Pnesident had put an embango on any statements. a A And how did you feann about the Pnesumably from a convensation with team, the Uknaine desk, but a phone a embango? I didn't see members on the Ukralne it in my emai1, so presumably call. Did you talk to anybody about UNCLASS I the FIED neason fon this embango? 32 UNCLASS I FIED A No. WeII, I think thene was a neference of wanting mone information, but I -- that was what I passed along to Ambassadon Volken. a Did you even get any mone infonmation? A It was a veny complicated situation. It wasn't clean exactly where the ships wene in intennational waters. There was some allegation -- the Russian side was anguing that it fnom the Uknainians and that tny and fonce Ponoshenko had done was a pnovocation this on purpose to Westenn suppont. I will say, I think a statement was -- Secretany Pompeo issued a statement the following day. Ambassadon Haley did eventually pretty quickly issue a statement as well. But thene was neven a statement fnom that I'm awane of. And did you find that to be unusual? the White a A House We neceived jounnalists as to not my why thene decision to a questlons fnom Uknainian countenparts and wasn't a stnongen statement, but that is make. And so what was youn nesponse when you neceived those inquinies from Ukrainian officials and jounnalists? A I would assune them that Ambassadon Haley spoke fon the adminlstnation; Secnetany Pompeo's statement was a veny stnong statement as wel1. We expressed strong concenn and defended oun actions. a Did you have any concenns at this time peniod, November 2QL8 on eanly Decemben of 2OL8, that penhaps the U.S. policy suppont fon Uknaine was shifting in any way? UNCLASS 1 FIED of stnong 33 UNCLASS I A In Thene wene some F]ED indications, possibly, of Uknaine fatigue. Januany, thene was an effont to get a noutine fneedom-of-navigation openation into the BIack Sea. That was of a -- I it was a destnoyen, but I'm not centain. It may have just been a -- actual1y, I don't think it was a destroyen. The destnoyen was laten. Thene was a fneedom-of-navigation openation fon the Navy. So we -- w€, the U.S. Govennment -- notified the Turkish Govennment that thene was this intent. Thene was a news nepont on CNN, and then the White House asked the Navy to cancel that. And there wene neports that thene was an effont to neview all assistance to Uknaine. That cneated a lot of fean that that was a shift in oun policy. believe Eventually., w€ met with Ambassadon Bolton and discussed this, and he made it clean that the Pnesident had called him to complain about that news repont. And that may have just been that he was sunprised. We don't -- I can't speculate as canceled, but then we wene able to why. But that that operation to get a second one fon laten in Febnuany. And we had an Anleigh-cIass destroyen anrive the of in Odesa on fifth annivensany of the Cnimea invasion. a Okay. You mentioned this meeting with Ambassadon Would was Bolton. that have been in the same genenal time peniod, noughly? A This would've been Decemben -- y€S, I believe it was Decemben 2O18. a Did you attend that meeting with Decemben 2Ot8? A r did. UNCLASS I FIED Ambassadon Bolton in UNCLASS I 34 FIED a And whene was it? A In Ambassadon Bolton's office. a And who else was thene? A I believe eveny meeting -- and I think we had four on five meetings with Ambassadon Bolton oven the time. Eveny meeting would have been with Dn. Fiona Hill and pnesumably -- I believe AlexVindman was in eveny meeting as a A a well, but I'm not centain. 0kay. He may have missed one on two. the genenal topic of discussion what And was 25th Novemben A It of 2OL8, on wene thene othen fuI1 focus of that meeting -- the how do we nespond concenn I topics as well? was, we1l, always about oun negotiations and how do nespond, how do we push back on Russian And happened on aggnession. But I believe the pnimany focus of that meeting was to this escalation. believe that we Ambassadon Bo1ton nelayed Ponoshenko was using that thene was some this fon his political advantage, that thene was skepticism about Ponoshenko's motives. But we also wanted to make sune the Eunopeans took the lead on nesponding to this escalation, because this was a And so we went our NATO allies -- this Eunopean to Bnussels laten that and European partnens to happened in Eunope. month and pushed hard with make sune thene was a stnong Eunopean nesponse. a And is this the Bnussels meeting that you nefenned to in youn opening statement UNCLASS I FIED 35 UNCLASS A I FIED Yes. in which Ambassadon Sondland also panticipated? a A Cornect. a Okay. So these foun to five meetings with Ambassadon Bolton wene befone you tnaveled A This was oven to Bnussels? the time that I with the -- as Special was Advison. a I see. A I think whene we wanted after thene was one meeting shontly to make sune he was on boand with he was appointed Ambassador Volken's general stnategy of using an intenim peacekeeping fonce. Thene one at this point. anound Thene was anothen one the elections. So a okay. A -- if shontly -- in the peniod And then thene was one I those ane foun that you'd 1ike, can nememben I can was in lune as well. off the top of my head, but -- tny to tnack down the exact numbens and times. a And I think we'ne going to step thnough Iaten today, hopefully not too Now, you each of those a little Iaten today. much indicated that thene was a news nepont, if I undenstand connectly, that Pnesident Trump was upset about on not pleased with. Can you A explain that a little mone? Thene was a CNN stony which seeing the news nepont, but said that -- and I don't nememben that neferenced this fneedom-of-navigation operation into the Black Sea and made UNCLASS it seem ] FIED as if this wene a dinect 35 UNCLASS] FIED nesponse to Russia and that it was a challenge to Russia. -- the news neport seemed to be, in my understanding, exaggenating the situation, because all the Navy had done was file a standand notification unden the Montreux Convention Now, that they a I don't know wene planning to tnansit into the Black Sea. And how do you know that the Pnesident was not pleased with this repont? A Ambassadon Bolton relayed that he was called at home by the Pnesident, who complained about this news nepont. a Do you have an undenstanding as nelationship with Pnesident to Ambassadon Bolton's Tnump? A I do not. a Do you know whether Ambassadon Bolton and Pnesident Tnump speak fnequently? A I can only assume theY would, as a I'm not asking you to assume. A Okay. a A11 night. And do you necalI noughly came when the CNN anticle out, on stony? A It was a news stony. I believe it was eanly Januany. a Going back to Decemben 2@L8 in Bnussels, can you again of that panticulan meeting? A So we did a senies of meetings at oun mission to NATO with aIlies and pantnens to tny and develop a stnong nesponse. And then we had meetings -- so thene was a militany component to try to get a descnibe the punpose UNCLASS ] FIED UNCLASS I FIED militany alliance nesponse, that this was 37 a -- the Black negion fon NATO. And then we had othen meetings with to say EU is a vital countenpants that thene was a nonmilitany aspect as well. And, laten on, veny Sea helpful. And did adopt a Black Sea policy that I think NATO the by Russia's attempts EU to has incneased assistance choke the Kench was to negions affected Stnait and choke off the Sea of Azov. So -a Wene meetings Uknaine in thene any concenns expnessed duning the senies of Bnussels about, again, a shift in U.S. stnong support fon ? A I don't believe in Bnussels thene wene. But some Uknainian cnitics had labeled oun nesponse anemic, and thene wene some cnitics that said that So we we oun nesponse emboldened Russia. tnied to fosten a stnongen nesponse, and that's pantly also called -- we tnied to dtnong -- that make sune that we could have why a that the destnoyen was able to visit we could make sune 0desa. And we wene able to annange it so that not only did the destroyen go but that we had a high-pnofile intennational visitons day at the same time, whene we had senion Poroshenko, Ambassadon visit; officials, including Pnesident officials from the EU; and we had Ukrainian we had senion Volker lead the delegation; and we had soon-to-be-announced Acting Assistant Secnetany Reeken thene; and Ambassadon Gondon Sondland was thene as weII. So it was a pnetty nobust message to the UNCLASS I EIED Russians that we ane not UNCLASS T 38 FIED this -- we are taking this seniously and not lying down. And, in fact, in sepanate infonmal meetings I had with Russian, sont of, back-channel diplomacy, they admitted this was a veny sharp message that they heand loud and clean. So -taking a A Wene To you on that tnip also? Odesa? a Yes. A Yes. a And you said Ambassador Sondland was also at Odesa? A Uh-huh. Yes, he helped annange for the EU officials to come to Odesa, and he was veny to coopenate And wene it enthusiastic and enengetic about getting EU with us on that. was actually quite extnaondinany because the EU officials genenally reluctant to be seen overshadowed by a U.S. destroyer. So they wene veny a -- it was a stnong show of unity in Odesa. What was Ambassadon Sondland's noLe genenally with negard to Uknaine? for nefonm in Uknaine, both on energy issues but also just nule of law. And they pnovide incnedible amounts of assistance. A We1I, the EU is the leading, sont And our assistance oven because we'ne play donors sune fonce the last few years has been very effective coordinated. Often, in the past, Uknaine would sort of off that the of, each othen and we would EU, the U.S., fMF, not be effective. So making Wonld Bank, and others wene all coordinated was a key point to making sune oun assistance was effective. UNCLASS IFIED UNCLASS ] And so the EU -- oun mission to the EU had played a veny stnong role in coondination. And Ambassadon Sondland was veny enthused about panticipating. of his enengy engaged. someone a 39 FIED excited So Ambassadon Volker was happy to get Did you have an undenstanding that thene came a point Ambassadon Sondland was given a special assignment and whene to wonk on Uknaine-nelated matters? A I think I know the news neponts you'ne talking about, and I don't know that. I do not have independent confinmation of that. What I can say is, when he was made pant of the delegation, thene was an -- I undenstood there was an informal taskingof Penny, Volken, and Sondland to sont of lead engagement on Uknaine fon the peniod night -- the finst 60 to 90 days. But I don't know if that qualifies as the tasking that you'ne nefenning to. But I do know that they wene taking the lead on policy aften and thene was lots of coondination between the thnee of them. a Okay. And when you say the delegation, you mean the May 21th, 2OL9, inaugunation of Pnesident Zelensky? A Connect. a 0kay. How did you come to l-eann that Ambassadon Sondland, Secnetary Penry, and Ambassadon Volken wene going to play a nole in these Ukraine effonts? A I believe I heand it fnom Alex Vindman. a When did you hean that? A It would have been the day the delegation was announced. UNCLASS I F]ED But UNCLASS 40 I FIED thene wene discussions about tnying to cneate a delegation. Thene wene some discussion about trying to include, I think, Senatons Congressmen as different -- we11. And thene were discussions about who could be pant ofthe delegation. I impontant that we had at least a Cabinet-level We and mean, official it was very as part of it. also had hoped that the Vice Pnesident could go, at one point. And they wene tnying to find windows. And while the inaugunation did of those windows, it also occunned I think it was 3 days' notice. So we had to scramble to onganize a delegation pretty occur in one quickly. a delegation And wene you involved in that effont to organize a ? A OnIy to the extent that I would nelay Ambassadon Volken's wishes to Alex Vindman and othens that he wanted a high-level delegation. a Okay. Did you attend the inaugunation? A No, I was not able to attend. a Did you get a neadout of the inaugunation? A Yes. Ambassadon Volken gave me -- I think he sent anound a quick update, and then we spoke about it when he came back. a When you say he sent out a quick update, you mean by email? A I believe so, but I -- that would be his nonmal pnactice. So I don't nememben the specific email, but I'm -a L{hat did he te}I you about the inauguration? THE CHAIRMAN: Can I, before counsel -- I just want to go back UNCLASS ] FIED 4t UNCLASS] FIED a little bit in the chronology. You said in youn opening statement, before the inaugunation in May, that you and youn colleagues saw a tweet by Rudy that Pnesident-elect Zelensky Giuliani alleging was sunnounded by enemies of Pnesident Tnump. to that saw that tweet? at the Embassy. So I would've been in Which colleagues ane you nefenning MR. ANDERSON: Colleagues touch with people at the Political Section. AIso with my colleagues at the Eunopean -- the EE Bureau, so Eastenn Eunope office, which covers Moldova, Belanus, and Uknaine. it just the tweet, on did you see othen public statements that Mr. Giuliani had made I'm tnying to think if this was the same time peniod -- in which Mn. Giuliani spoke about THE CHAIRMAN: And was not meddling in an election but meddling in investigations? Did you see those comments as well? MR. ANDERSON: newspapen, Yes. I believe. And thene were sevenal So we had been tnacking those. to what extent that was, I guess, fneelancing, penhaps, neflected -- that was he was a The Hill did not know on whether that stories in We pnivate citizen, so we did not know to what extent significant. But we wene centainly awane of those news neports and tweets. THE CHAIRMAN: And you wene awane that he nepnesented the Pnesident. MR. ANDERSON: Correct. THE CHAIRMAN: And I think at least in UNCLASS I FIED one of those intenviews 42 UNCLASS I he was doing was with that what he said FlED the knowledge and the support of the Pnesident? MR. ANDERSON: I don't nememben that pant, but I also know he was that he was nepnesenting him in a pnivate capacity. THE CHAIRMAN: And I think you said in youn opening statement saying one this high-level delegation to attend the inaugunation was a dinect nesult of concenns naised by Mn. Giuliani's of the neasons you pushed fon tweets and othen statements? MR. ANDERSON: Thene was -- with the withdnawal of Ambassadon Yovanovitch, and there was concern that U.S. suppont was flagging. And so we wanted and to show that the U.S. continued to that, with a new Pnesident, thene was a support Uknaine willingness to neenengize oun nelationship. THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. MitChEll. BY MR. MITCHELL: a So when did you first leann that Rudy Giuliani was taking in Ukraine? A I don't necaIl. I was seeing the news reponts of, I guess that was Manch and Apni1. I saw his name anound that. And we sawthe an intenest that he put out. We had hoped that it would nefen - - he was referning, in many ways - - we undenstood it to nefen to Leschenko, Senhiy Leschenko, who tweets -- he ended up not being pant of Zelensky's team. And so we hoped that that and a new Ambassador would -- on Change - - would address those concerns. was an MP. And he was not UNCLASS I EIED UNCLASS a Okay. things thene. intenest in A So I think you've mentioned a couple So what was youn undenstanding of of diffenent Rudy Giuliani's Leschenko? This was speculation on my Giu1ianl. But we undenstood this, refenned 43 IF]ED pant, since I had no contact with based on news neports, to Leschenko's involvement in publicizing that it what was called the black ledgen, whlch is nelated to Paul Manafont's activities. a Okay. And when you say "wer" who do you mean by "we"? A The Uknaine desk, myself, and people in Embassy Kyiv. a And did you speak with Ambassadon Volken about these eanly effonts, as well, by Giuliani? A I bniefed him that these wene occurning, and background on Lutsenko's nole tnying to in this I pnovided and what Lutsenko was seemingly do. a Okay. trJhat did you believe Lutsenko to be doing? A I believed that Lutsenko was tnying to keep his job by making himself useful to the U.S. Govennment, on to centain people in the U.S. Govennment, or in the U.S. a And who was that? A Giuliani and others. It that he was tnying to -- Lutsenko was tnying to play into U.S. domestic politics and theneby win favons. But anything mone I think would be speculation. a Okay. And wene these youn concenns at the time that you leanned it of Rudy seemed Giuliani's intenest in Uknainei was noughly Manch on Apnil of 2@L9? UNCLASS ] FIED And I think you said UNCLASS 44 I FIED A Connect. a Okay. And you indicated that you were speaking with othen individuals at the State Depantment, including people on the Uknaine desk? A Conrect. a And people at Embassy Kyiv as well? A Uh-huh. Connect. a Can you just genenally descnibe how you wene communicating on talking to all these folks within the State Depantment about the Giuliani A issue? So countenpant Unit. I in Embassy Kyiv who neplaced in Washington, And then I me as the head my of the Extennal on -- I would bnief them on what and he would te1l me And so we would touch base happening calls with would have regulan secune telephone what was going on in Kyiv. would have negular meetings with Geonge Kent, for example, Bnad Fneden, John Kuny (ph), othens on the Uknaine team, Lazaneth (ph), aII, sont of, would a this and how affect oun policy. Okay. And you was Ben people working on this. And we would tny to figune out what was happening in the news, what this meant, it was indicated that Leschenko Rudy nanrative. Giuliani was - - one You also mentioned of his intenests the Change I think what you wene neferning to thene was -- and connect me if I'm wnong -- was the fact that Rudy Giuliani also was D'Affaines. And involved in a negative nannative about Ambassadon Yovanovitch as well. UNCLASS I FIED 45 UNCLASS ] FIED Is that connect? A Connect. a Biden Was thene also a thind nannative involving Burisma and Hunten ? A I was awane that that was pant of it, but I was in those discussions, so I didn't neaIly focus on that a you say you wenen't invoLved When not involved pant of it. in those discussions, what ane you nefenning to? A Thene was discussions about whether these were whethen these wene tnue and how we should nespond. And factual and I did not take pant in those discussions, and that was mone the connuption team looking at that. a A The connuption team where? Thene wene people tasked and then also a A been in with conruption in the Uknaine desk Embassy Kyiv. Okay. But pnesumably George would've been -- Geonge Kent would've taking the lead on those discussions. A Okay. And do you have any neason to believe that these allegations that wene investigated by the Uknaine desk, and DAS Kent had any basis A I Kyiv, tnuth? believe he put out a statement saying thene was no basis in tnuth in August. a in Embassy But I have no independent knowledge of that. Okay. And why wene these issues -- or^, UNCLASS I Giuliani's FIED invol-vement in UNCLASS Uknaine, why was that something A negotiations mone that pant of that that you wene paying attention -- to? Russia had been stalling in the or less since the spning of 20L8, and we believed in Because 46 I FIED onden to was a get belief by Russia that the U.S. Govennment was getting Uknaine fatigue on was no longen as intenested in nesolving this. And we wanted to convince Russia that we wene senious, that the U.S. would not accept Russia's continued aggnession, and that we believed a stnong U.S. high-Ievel engagement with Uknaine would help bning Russia back to the negotiating table so that we could end this lives, displaced millions of and I think injuned tens of thousands of people. wan, which has cost over t3rOO0 So we neally believed that getting high-1evel U.S. cnitical to restanting negotiations UNCLASS I engagement was which had been stalled. FIED people, UNCLASS 47 IFIED 13:37 p .m. l By MR. MITCHELL: a Okay. And what's the nelationship between what you just said and youn focus on intenest in what A Rudy Giuliani was up to? that I had a fean, I'11 speak about myself, I had the fean that if Giuliani's narrative took ho1d, that Thene was a fean the Uknainian Govennment was an enemy of the Pnesident, then it would be veny hand to have high-leve1 engagement, and -- that that would mean that -- that it would be handen fon us to pnessune Russia to come back to the negotiating table. a So if I undenstand conrectly, you saw Rudy Giuliani's effonts as potentially undenmining the U.S. Govennment's ability to bning Russia back to the negotiating table to nesolve this issue in the we would Donbas Russia would not ? A That was my pensonal opinion, a yes. And what was youn undenstanding nelationship with Pnesident of Rudy Giuliani's Tnump? A I do not know. a WeIl, did you know that at the time Rudy Giuliani himself out as the personal attonney of Pnesident was holding Tnump? -- yes, I believed he was neponting that he was the pensonal attonney. I do not know if that was tnue on if thene was a fonmal nelationship, but I saw tweets to that effect on news neponts to that effect. A It a was my And you have no neason to doubt that? UNCLASS I FIED 48 UNCLASSI FIED A I did not actually focus that much on Giuliani, just that thene was concenns about this, and I noticed it, and I said it was more in the fname of I hope this doesn't continue. But I had no engagement with him and did not dinectly -- yeah, I had no dinect engagement with him. a Do you know whethen Ambassadon VoIken had dinect engagement with Rudy Giuliani? A I leanned aften the and Ambassadon Volken relayed continue with fact that to me that he had been in touch with he believed Mr. this vein. I think he but I don't him, Giuliani would know the exact of those communications. But he did nelay to me that he had been in touch and that he did not think this issue was going away. nature a When did you have that conversation with Ambassadon Volken? A I don't nememben. I think it would have been late spning, but I don't know fon sune. I don't nememben. a Do you necall whether it was prion to Pnesident Zelensky's inaugunation on May 20th? A I believe it was, because I think it was also befone Ambassadon Taylor had been -- had been convinced to go out to Kyiv. a When Ambassadon Vo1ken told you that he believed that Rudy Giuliani would not abandon these effonts, did he communicate that to you in penson on over email? A In penson, I believe. a What convensation else did Ambassadon Volken ? UNCLASS I EIED teII you duning that UNCLASS I A 49 F]ED That happened in the context of: to get Zelensky And we need to show that he's diffenent, we need to get Zelensky to show that he is senious about neform, and that we would have we'd have to do something to change to do something -- that the narnative. it was not it was -- the comment about Giuliani was a small comment in passing. The langen discussion was: We need to do But something a to develop a nelationship. Ane you awane Ambassadon Volken on A of a phone call on about May 10th On1y based on news neponts. between Rudy of Giuliani and 2@t9? I did not have any knowledge of it at the time. a You indicated that Ambassadon VoIken said you had to change the nannative. Did you have an understanding of what he meant by that? A was And just to be clear, those ane words to that effect. That not a dinect quote. In the this as well sense -- of we wanted believed that have a pensonal nelationship meet as to get it -- was impontant and I came to believe that Pnesident Tnump with Pnesident Zelensky, and that they quickly as possible, both to was committed, he show the Russians that the U.S. but also so that they could develop a pensonal -- that positive nelationship. And we believed that once they met they would hit it off. neLationship and that would wene both political They outsidens who had committed to changing the status quo, and we thought they would connect, and so that would help insulate the policy from daily contnovensies. UNCLASS I EIED 50 UNCLASS I a And was elsewhere A FIED this in the context of a White House visit on a meeting ? Any of the above. The goal was a White House visit, because that has the langest significance. But any -- that also led to - - wanted to get a Vice Pnesident meeting, meeting on the mangins of the U.N. Genenal Assembly. But, you know, in sont of the scale of meetings, the best would be an Oval Office a A pomp and visit fon Pnesident Zelensky. is that? Because it is the best show of suppont and it And why cincumstance, and so but also in that has the gneatest has the most impact, both in Uknaine Moscow. a And did you have any convensations with any Uknainian officials about a White House visit? A I did. We met -- I would meet with repnesentatives fnom the Uknainian Embassy noutinely to talk about tnying to -- where they would express thein intenest we wene would be in a White House meeting, talking about in tenms helpful to increase the was committed to and I would relay what of policy deliverables that chance neform and could be of that and to show we thought that Zelensky a strong energy and security pantnen. a A was And what were those Thene wene sont Kolomoisky. policy delivenables? of three veins that And Ambassadon Volken and Kolomoisky atso involved of the oliganchs. And I we wene wene anti-tnust nefonm, to looking at. of the opinion that bneak up the fon Zelensky that was, in panticulan, UNCLASS] FIED Qne powen it was UNCLASS 51 ] FIED that he was independent from an oliganch named Kolomoisky. There was also -- so that was one tnanche we wene sont of showing. showing So a key delivenable on that was PrivatBank, making sune that does not get given back to Kolomoisky, but also tnying to fix a law on illicit ennichment. Then the othen to show -- anothen vein was secunity assistance in tnying that they wene a stnong security pantnen. That meant, in panticulan, purchasing -- encouraging them to punchase lavelins, which the Pnesident had authonized as pant of his decision to pnovide lavelins. And the thind was impnoving enengy coopenation, and that included incneasing -- tnying to cneate a situation whene Amenican companies could successfully compete. mone a And when did you have these -- on when did these convensations begin with the Uknaine Embassy representatives neganding scheduling a White House meeting? A I know fon sune they wene going on in May. They may have stanted a little bit eanlien, but I know fon sune they wene going on in May. -- Ambassadon Volken met with Zelensky in Kyiv duning the inaugunation, and I believe it came up thene. But And then we also met with then also we talked about had a meetingthene, that nequest fnom eanly on a it again duning the Toronto confenence, was an issue thene. And it was a veny stnong of the Zelensky administnation. So you've mentioned a convensation Volken had at the UNCLASS I EIED we 52 I FIED UNCLASS inaugunation. You've mentioned Tononto. communications Wene thene othen that you pensonally wene involved in with Uknainian officials neganding setting up a White House meeting? A I was meeting with repnesentatives fnom the Embassy at least eveny othen week, I believe. a A a Duning the May time peniod? During May-June time peniod, yeah. And you wene discussing, it sounds 1ike, these thnee policy deliverables. 1s that night? A a Correct. Did the topic of Rudy Giuliani even come up with any of these convensations with Uknainian officials? if they didn't ask about it, but I had no direct knowledge of it. So it was more just how do we -- we focused on how do we -- how can We focus A I have no dinect necall of on these thnee aneas a A a So you of delivenables that. I and sont would be sunpnised of push fonwand on don't specifically necaIl, but it that. may have come up? Yes. What about the topic of investigations, did that come up the context of any of these convensations negarding a White House A t^Jith a Yes. A a that I'm awane of. Not that I necall. What about the toPic of Bunisma? A NO. the Ukrainians? Not UNCLASS I FIED in visit? UNCLASS 53 I E]ED a Hunter Biden? A No. The only exception, I don't nememben, this some would be sont of comment about a news anticle that the Uknainians asked about, but a it was may have not a topic of discussion. And what about 2016 elections if election intenfenence in the U.S. ? A I don't discussing that. nememben I just wanted to follow up on a couple quick THE CHAIRMAN: questions in tenms of the context. In your opening statement you said that aften the delegation netunned fnom the inaugunation the panticipants wanted to bnief the Pnesident on the tnip, and Ambassadon Sondland was quickly able to annange a meeting with the Pnesident fon May 23rd, context of pnepaning It was in the that meeting that you discussed these three delivenables. Is that right? MR. ANDERSON: mess whene we We had a meeting outside the White House talked about what ane some aneas that we could -- ane some things show Connect. that we could ask what the Uknainians in which they would to neform and to being a stnong pantnen. THE CHAIRMAN: And in tenms of youn statement that Ambassadon they wene committed Sondland was quickly able -- was able to quickly annange a meeting fon the Pnesident -- with the Pnesident -- what date was the inaugunation? MR. ANDERSON: I believe it was May 2?th, THE CHAIRMAN: And Ambassadon Sondland was able with the Pnesident just 3 days laten? UNCLASS ] F]ED to get a meeting 54 I FIED UNCLASS MR. ANDERSON: it Yes. would be the Depantment stiIl debating intennally whether of Enengy or the Depantment of State that We wene would be fonmally nequesting the meeting, but Ambassador Sondland was able to schedule the meeting pretty quickly. does THE CHAIRMAN: And that indicate to which Ambassadon Sondland was able Ambassador Sondland was on with Mick Mulvaney to you annange that the speed with that meeting that eithen very well connected with the Pnesident to get that meeting that quickly? MR. ANDERSON: We thought he had connections to the White House and was taken mone seniously than the State Depantment buneaucracy. fact, he was veny successful, wasn't he, THE CHAIRMAN: And, in in getting the meeting? did, yes. MR. ANDERSON: He THE CHAIRMAN: And so the discussion demonstnate Zelensky's commitment to of these delivenables to neform, YoU're discussing them in the context of a meeting youn colleagues ane about to have with the Pnesident? Is that night? MR. ANDERSON: CONNCCI. THE CHAIRIvIAN: And what was the connection between discussing those delivenables that you wene going to want Zelensky to pnoduce and what you expected the panticipants to Tnump discuss? MR. ANDERSON: go in the meeting with Pnesident in and argue cnitical, ft that and we need was my understanding we have 90 -- that they -- you know, the first we should go UNCLASS all in to I FIED wene going to 90 days is and make sune we have 55 UNCLASS a stnong pantnen And so thene. if they'ne be a good test So it was seniousness I EIED they ane pledged to deliver on these aneas. And senious and deliven on this, we should to make sune -- that would they are a stnong pantnen. tnying to identify ways that we could judge the of the Uknainian THE CHAIRMAN: So Govennment. the idea was that in this meeting wlth the Pnesident, the participants in the meeting would say, effectively, Mn. Pnesident we think you should have a meeting with Pnesident Zelensky if is willing to to these thnee things? MR. ANDERSON: Roughly. I don't know if it would be that explicit. But it would -- the idea would be we can get pnogness in Zelensky commit to achieve, and we think a White House meeting would help lead to that. But I don't know -- I was not in the meeting, so f don't know exactly how it was phnased. these thnee key policy aneas that we want THE CHAIRMAN: And the discussion of these delivenables would have taken place in the chnonology aften talked with Giuliani eanlien in Rudy MR. ANDERSON: convensation, but happened Ambassadon Volken would have May? Again, I don't know that he did have that I've seen news neponts about it, so it would have aften that if those news neponts ane connect. THE CHAIRMAN: And one of those delivenables, I mean, this is not specifically mentioned in youn statement, but I think you mentioned in youn testimony, in tenms of impnoving bilatenal secunity, incneasing punchases of key U.S. military equipment, pant of that to lavelins. UNCLASS ] FIED was refenning 56 UNCLASSI FIED MR. ANDERSON: Connect. THE CHAIRMAN: in fact, And, Pnesident Zelensky would bring up the lavelins in his convensation with the Pnesident, right befone the Pnesident asked fon a favon. Am I night? MR. ANDERSON: CONNCCI. THE CHAIRMAN: MN. MitChcl]. BY MR. MITCHELL: a These thnee key eanlien and also wene found policy delivenables that you testified to in youn opening statement, these delivenables that wene conceived by you and othens prion wene to policy meeting with the Pnesident, conrect? A Connect. They had been discussed, Ambassadon -- I think the delegation and had sketched them out tnip, but they wene fleshed out in significantly In the intenagency I think pnocess we had gneaten detail. a phone cal1, lune 5th or so that thene was a weekend with during thein Embassy I think it was Kyiv, our mission to the EU, and enengy fo1ks, where we talked about how we could delineate these. We had an options papen whene we discussed in gneater detail about how these things could wonk out. And then we ended up meeting with Ambassador Bo1ton and he endonsed those lines of effont as we11. a And do you know whethen these thnee key policy delivenables were, in fact, communicated to Pnesident Tnump on May 23rd? A I do not. a Did you get a neadout of that May 23nd meeting? A I did. Thene was an email cinculating anound with that UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS summary. But 57 ] FIED I don't necall exactly -- I don't necal-I exactly what I believe the aneas wene discussed, but I don't what extent and to what detail. was in it. a Okay. To May 23nd meeting? Ambassadon Volken told me that the Pnesident said something to the effect of the Uknainians tnied to take me down. foun pnincipals, to the best of youn recollection, what was the neadout that you neceived of the A know Ambassadon And then the Volken, Sondland, Senaton Johnson, and that, no, this is diffenent, thene is a neal possibility of change hene, Uknaine is on the cusp of tunning Secnetany Penny, convinced him a whole page, and if we engage now we can make a neal diffenence hene and they can become a stnong secunity pantner. That is my undenstanding fnom place. But I am Ambassadon Volken of what took pretty sure thene was an email which involved -- which included input fnom Ambassadon Sondland as well summanizing the meeting. a Did Ambassadon Volken mention was discussed at the to you whethen Rudy Giuliani May 23nd meeting? A I don't reca1l Ambassadon nelation to that meeting. VoIken mentioning Giuliani in a What about investigations? A I don't necall investigations MR. MITCHELL: I think my time is coming up. up. BY MR. CASTOR: a When was the finst time you heand Ambassador Volken mention UNCLASS I FIE D 58 UNCLASSI FIED the Rudy Giuliani aspect? HilI statements came out -- when The Hill news reponts came out, and I believe Pnesident Tnump tweeted something about those anticles. Ambassador Volken sent me a question, what is the backgnound to this? And that's when I provided some context about Lutsenko and what he was doing. So that was the finst time I nememben A When The discussing anything nelated to a When this with him. did you leann that Ambassadon Volken was engaging with Mn. Giuliani? A It But -- it I don't nememben exactly nemember he but was sevenal was several weeks when aften he had done it. that was. But if you know when he - - I saying something to the effect of, I was in touch with him, I don't -- and that was after the fact. So I don't knowthe exact. a Did he te11 you anything else about the intenactions he had with Mn. Giuliani? A lust that he didn't think it would go away. Like his concenns wene we'ne not going to be -- I understood what he was saying, that if we -- we shouldn't hope that he'lI focus on something else and move on to another issue, he's going to keep naising this issue. And so -- a Who is he? A Mr. Giuliani. a Okay. Did he even nelay to you that he believed Mr. Giuliani was amplifying a negative narnative about the cunnent outlook with Pnesident Zelensky and Uknaine? UNCLASS I FIED 59 I EIED UNCLASS A I obstacle a to undenstood fnom to his comments that he believed this was an impnoving relations and putting pnessune on Russia. And do you know if he was engaging convince him that his views of Uknaine with that Rudy Giuliani to tny he was pnomoting wene not accunate? A tny That was -- I that he had neached out to undenstood sort of pnovide him some mone infonmation, and got the sense that this issue a Okay. was and not going to go that's him to when he away. Did he even give you any neadout of whethen he thought he would be successful with convincing Mn. Giuliani that he had an inconnect take on Uknaine? A I undenstood that by Ambassadon which they would stay, that Volken admitting this issue, indication admission that he was was an not successful in changing his opinion. I wiIl and tnying to convince him to take the position, impontant I also note that in oun discussions with had a that someone with independent statune I that with dinect -- discussed Ambassadon Taylon we thought be out Ambassadon it was thene. In fact, Taylon, that it was impontant that thene was someone who could be independent of any outside pnessune. a A And what did to you in netunn? Ambassadon Taylon was wondening how he could do a he could be successful about Ambassador Taylon say this, I think -- I and we had believe at this job. job -- how And we wene exchanging messages additional pnivate convensations. But I said, my nesponse, to the best of UNCLASS ] FIED my necollection, was UNCLASS I 60 FIED it's not so much -- I can't promise that you'11 be successful, but you'11 do a Iot better job than the needs you a to step to this, up alternatives, something and I think the countny to that effect. Did Ambassadon Taylon nelay to you his concenns concenning the Giuliani involvement? A expnessed He was his -- yes. concenn He was nepeatedly that Giuliani would make his job difficult, he nequested a meeting with the Secnetany And he nequested that to do the job and that oun suppont a Okay. -- He for also -- that he would be able Uknaine would made and to discuss those concenns. he be neassuned about fon Uknaine would not change. changed, he would concenned nepeatedly it not -- clean that oun policy if that policy he would resign. Did you even hear any discussion of Ambassadon Volker encounaging some sort of investigation that would have involved Burisma on the Bidens? A I did not. a meeting in the There was some vague discussion Depantment of Energy, I believe it was in -- thene was lune 18th, whene eithen in the meeting on on the mangins thene was some discussion of I don't nememben and I looked back in my neadout, my email neadout of that, and there was no mention of it. So it was a veny vague discussion. But I nememben it was enough that when I spoke to Ambassadon Taylon aftenwards, we agneed that the investigations. And thnee lines of effont that had been identified wene the right ones and anticonnuption was impontant. But we also had to make sune that any UNCLASS I PIED call fon Kolomoisky was not UNCLASS 61 I FIED called for individual -- fon not specific individual cases, as that was not appnopriate, and that thene was a specific pnocess that existed for doing -- fon nequesting help on ongoing cases. a And what was that pnocess? A I don't believe we mentioned it, but it is call an MLAT, a mutual lega} assistance -- it falls unden mutual legal assistance tneaty. a initiate And that would be lf the Uknainian some Govennment was sort of investigative activity with a U.S. going to penson? A 0n if the Depantment of Justice wanted help investigating an ongoing matten, they could file a nequest. We have a legal attache in Kyiv who can help with these issues. So thene's a fonmaL channel fon that. a But if company Bunisma in, would that thene was, you know, an investigation neganding this of Uknainians and wnongdoing be something that that they panticipated Ambassadon Volken would be comfontable recommending? A I don't know what Ambassadon Volken would be comfontable necommending. a Okay. So he neven discussed that with you -A No. a -- that he was tnying to advocate fon that? A No. a Okay. Ane you familiar with the company Bunisma? A Honestly, no. I mean, I've nead news neponts about lt. UNCLASS ] EIED 62 UNCLASS ] a A and FIED OkaY. But I was veny focused when the fighting, and that I was in Kyiv on the conflict was mone than enough wonk fon me. a So the company never came to your attention when you were -- because you wene in Kyiv fon -A Thnee yeans. a -- fon 3 years. A Connect. a subject And duning nememben unease about the Vice it it was, but heaning a vague President's I that Pnesident's something I news a vague complaint on son. I did not know his name on what Kent, I don't nememben. coming up once, maybe on visit that. And But thene was -- I nememben heaning someone comment on may have been Geonge nememben on maybe somewhene the mangins of the Vice else. But, again, that was not focused on. a I believe you testified is Bunisma openation was to a numben of investigations? A I company that time peniod, the hene today that connuption in Uknaine pnetty widespnead? A a Connect, but getting betten. And so ane most of the oliganchs and thein contnol, you know, the entities they control, ane they, you know, most points in time to charges of cornuption? A Yes. Corruption in Uknaine is a tool that is wielded, and since evenyone is connupt, who you pnosecute is a political decision. subject UNCLASS IEIED 63 UNCLASS I E]ED And I management no that connuption is in have believed tool in that's Uknaine whene institutional stnuctunes that many ways a tool -- how you ensune, when wonk, you use connuption to a there is make sune you can incentivize, you can get what you want. a Ane thene centain sectons like the enengy beset by cornuption, A It is but I it industny? is veny connupt, that some of the enengy secton is also betten my undenstanding aLso undenstand run because in Uknaine which are especially the enengy secton has mone a fonmal structune that ane listed on in Eunopean companies. So it would be veny hand to saywhich secton also depends on whether you the Pnesident appoints its mean is mone connupt. sont of the gnand connuption penson on if it's the petty connuption It whene whene you can't get health insunance without infonmal fee fon senvice, right? So it's veny hand to say what's the most connupt. a Okay. So, you know, any allegations that Bunisma may have, you know, thein oliganch, Zlochevsky, may have misappnopniated, you know, enengy licenses to his familian with at the time? own benefit, that's something you wenen't A I was not familian with that. a Okay. The allegation that they went out and put centain offlcials to prevent on at least give them some coven fnom investigative wonk, is that something you only heand of aften the fact on thein boand ? A I know that is common pnactice UNCLASS I FIED in the fonmen Soviet Union UNCLASS I to try to -- that all 64 FlED try to get Westennens on thein boands and tny to make it look mone Iegit. As to more specifically the Uknainian companies situation, I cannot a Okay. comment. During youn time in Kyiv, do you nememben if the Vice Pnesident, Vice Pnesident Biden, because you wene thene fnom 2014 to if thene wene any visits from the Vice Pnesident? A Thene were visits. I helped organize I was the site officen fon the meeting with Pnesident Ponoshenko. But I was not in 2OL7, do you rememben any of the meetings. a Do you rememben how many times the Vice Pnesident visited? A I believe it was five on six, but that would include befone I was thene. But that is my -- but that's a rough estimate. a Okay. That in total he was in Uknaine five on six times? A But he was a it was also oun undenstanding that he had a -- we saw him as one of the lead policy people on Uknaine, that he was sont a you of veny focused on Uknaine. And what was he intenested in with nespect to Uknaine, do nememben? A told that My undenstanding was sevenaL of my neponts that he led the gamut. And so I that I wnote on the of the fighting, Russia's no1e, those wene, conflict, the natune I was to1d, wene well-nead in the Office of the Vice Pnesident. I also undenstand in tenms was he was thene of connuption. a Uh-huh. A But, you know, othen than people telling UNCLASS I FIED me good job, you 65 UNCLASS I EIED I don't know. a Do you rememben a visit in December 2Ot5 whene the Vice know, youn nepont was thene, Pnesident came to Kyiv and got involved with advocacy nelated to one at the time, his name is Shokin? A I nememben that. I believe that is when I was wonking on being the site officen fon the -- for his -- I believe it was a lunch of the pnosecutor with the Pnesident, with Pnesident and meeting a on genenals Ponoshenko. the pneparations fon that visit What do you nememben about that panticulan issue, if you nememben anything? A What I was focused on was the logistics of where the motorcade would go, how long the meetings would go, whethen it would be -- so I was veny focused on those things. I'm happy to discuss those, but I don't think that you'ne a So you wenen't involved with the pnepanation fon the issue of the pnosecuton genenal? A a No. Do you have any infonmation on recollections about the issue with the finsthand -- finsthand pnosecutor? A I have no finsthand necollection. a Do you know if anybody at the Embassy at the time did on was that something being handled out of A I have been Washington? believe the Ambassador -- -- was that Pyatt? Yovanovitch, I believe. I believe that was -- that would Or 2Ot5, no, it would have beenAmbassadon So she would have been that is only based on the stnuctune. UNCLASS I F]ED involved. But, again, UNCLASS I a Speaking of Ambassador opinion on Javelins, but was 66 FIED Pyatt, eanlien you mentioned his I don't think you told us what his opinion ? A He was veny suppontive of incneasing oun defensive assistance. a Okay. So he was aligned with some of the othen policymakers you discussed? A Uh-huh. Connect. a Okay. When is the finst time you met Ambassadon Sondland? A I believe it was in December at this at the meeting we had night before the -- on the -- when we went and had the lunch aften the Kerch We may tnip incident. have had a t^Je hadthe substantive meeting was at with he hosted a lunchfon us in Brussels. bnief pu11-aside meeting fon 5 minutes we had thnough Bnussels, a -- And how many times but this I don't nemember. and another Our finst lunch. in total do you think you were in a meeting Ambassadon Sondland? A WeII, when he came to Odesa, it was -- we had -- like 10 meetings that day, and we had a -- he and AmbassadonVolken, was something and he was in Enengy and a time with I was in a coffee most of thene of those, befone the meeting, on June 19th befone the meeting with the Depantment Ambassadon Vo1ken and he met I think this was Enengy, shop nean the Depantment of in that meeting. Any othen time peniods whene you spent considerable meeting Ambassadon Sondland? UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS I 57 FIED A ft was in the - - at the White House befone the meeting with the -- befone his meeting with the Pnesident. So that would be the 23nd, I believe. a Is that pnetty much the univense? A Yeah, I had touch -- I was in mone fnequent touch with his office. But I did not directly intenact with him othen than when I was with a Ambassadon Vo1ken. Do you even hean Ambassadon Sondland descnibe what has been chanactenized as a lange nemit necessanily the A to I think wonk on issues beyond EU? Thene wene people who wene uncomfontable nemit, but my view was he is someone who is trying to with his do langen the right thing is enengetic and has political capital, and so he can help us move the ball fonward. and a Okay. Did Ambassador Volken have any concenns that you wene awane of neganding Ambassadon Sondland's invofvement? A Ambassadon VoIken encounaged people who wene energetic and wanted was to the night thing to play a nole, and he did not think it useful to try and tunn them off. a of do So thene was no concern between younself on Ambassadon Volken Sondland's j-nvolvement A We ln some of these things? believed we had to help steen, and he had an nonconventional approach. But, no, we thought he could be helpful. a And sometimes people with unconventional approaches, you know, he wasn't a pnofessional diplomat, he was an outside businessman, UNCLASS I FIED 68 UNCLASSI FIED sometimes people like that need to be, you know, focused into the pnopen channels. Is that A a some connect? Yes. Did you even have any communications with Geonge Kent about of these Biden, Bunisma, 2016 issues? A With Biden, Burisma specifically? No. But if issues, I did let him know aften the meeting that we had you mean by with Ambassador I believe was lune 10th -- thene's a lot of dates swinling in my head at the moment -- but I nelayed to him through a message befone Bolton, which -- eanly in the monning, before he he went to his meetings, I had othen meetings. I just want to give you a heads-up. And I said something to the effect of, Ambassadon Bo1ton So I gave him a quick message saying, said he supponted our lines of effont, he supponted White engagement, but wanned that Giuliani was House a key voice on Uknaine and could be an obstacle. So that the only communication was Kent about the Biden, a to When it to pnobe having with Geonge of that stuff. to you that thene was some allegations nelated to effont 201-6 or ? A My last even was awane day in the office of -- that it was believe it was July 12th, had gotten communication fnom Alex Vindman, which I nememben Bunisma, any become appanent convince the Uknainians Bunisma I did Giuliani, I and so specific. I I'm not sure had I nelayed to Ambassadon a Volken, July 10th, which was basically saying we need to UNCLASS I FIED make 69 UNCLASS sune we sepanate any a okay. A And WhatsApp, and IFIED collusion investigation stuff from oun policy. that's the message that I sent to I made sune Ambassadon Volken on that system was available on our State Department senvens. a that A lot of people in the State Depantment use WhatsApp. Is connect? A Connect. a It's almost essential in centain pants of the wonld, night? A Our countenpants will not nespond to text messages in many places. They assume intelligence senvices are listening, which is good assumption. And so we have a So most State Depantment of anchiving thein just used officials WhatsApp messages fon a that pnactice. have a punposes policy or pnactice of the Fedenal Records Act? A Yes. I is some it's not always clean what recond. But, Y€s, a lot of this is infonmal mean, thene constitutes a Fedenal communication, which then gets documented a When Vindman expnessed that's just befone you in email or othen formats. concerns on July 10th, gnanted, left the job, do you rememben any othen colon on detalls that he pnovided about his concenns? A understanding, and honestly, the is of that. That was shontly after the meeting with Danylyuk, I I believe it was focused on was in the aftenmath my But, tnying to get Cathenine on boand and me out doon. UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS I 70 FIED a Did you attend that meeting, the luly 10th meeting? A No, I did not. a And did you get a readout? You may have testified to that. A I do not believe I got a detailed neadout. I do rememben heaningfrom -- I think it was fnomAIex, sayingthat it was cut shont, and that but I did not have time to get a fonmal neadout. a Okay. Do you nememben if Lieutenant Colonel Vindman expnessed any concenn about what Ambassadon Sondland may at that have said or may not meeting? A I don't necaII. He did in that he must have said something because I nelayed to Ambassadon Volken that Vindman was concenned about sepanating investigations fnom oun policy. a Okay. What was Vindman's Council's, you know, nole Were hene view of the National Secunity with the Sondland piece coming into play? they fnustnated about the Sondland element? A Not necessarily. I think thene was some concern that thene was -- I don't know what he thought about this. I don't think we even had a discussion about Ambassadon Sondland that I can necall. a And did you have a nelatively good working nelationship, younself and Ambassadon Volken, with the National Secunity Council at the time? A Yes. a A Regulan communications? noutine We -- had regulan communications. And we would I -- we would have noutinely have meetings at the NSC. UNCLASS I FIED I would meet UNCLASS with Alex. so that 7L F]ED And we would have negulan coondination sessions, secune communications the White T with the House Fnench and Germans, and we would with eithen Dn. Hill hold it on Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, could show close coondination with the White House with we at oun pantnens. a nememben No majon policy disagneements with them that you can I think Dn. ? A Thene wene no majon got sometimes nenvous with Ambassadon appnoach sometimes. But no a And how did she -- Ambassadon Vo1ken's A Because it policy differences. HilI Volken's fonwand-leaning policy diffenences. how did you know that she got nenvous about fonward-leaning approaches? to Cnoft when she was point of coondinating veny canefully. And was nelayed me by Cathenine at the NSC. a A Okay. And so we made a if not I think it was weekly phone calls to make sune that she could let Fiona know, on Dn. Hill know, what we wene doing at all times. a And did that pnove successful on was it sti1l a touchy especially situation when Cathenine was thene we would have ? A I think she had a very stnessful job, but I think she undenstood we wene wonking within -- we had a common policy view and we nespected hen authonity and position. But I think she was sometimes she always wanted mone infonmation about what we wene UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS I 72 FIED doing. a She's excitable, too, isn't she? A I'm not sune I would chanactenize her that way. a Okay. How would you chanactenize her -- like how did she manifest hen A nenvousness? WeI1, thene was one meeting when she was frustnated, that she believed Ambassadon Volker sufficiently. And so she felt -- that we had not coondinated she was not awane of something we wene doing. But, in genenal, she was a consummate pnofessional, and she incnedibly knowledgeable and knew more about -- it was was always insightful to go meet with hen because she would always have other ideas of, weI1, this will impact this policy and this policy. And we wene laser focused on Donbas and Uknaine, and she was always intenested -- she would always put it in context of othen pnoblems they wene facing. a Okay. And was that the only time she got frustnated with you ? A a A Yes. Okay. WeII, the only time she expressed fnustnation. She may have been fnustnated in pnivate, but a Okay. Fain enough. Any issues A with Lieutenant Colonel Vindman? No. UNCLASS I EIED Any disagreements? 73 UNCLASS]EIED a No. We wene discussing a littIe bit eanlien a Uknainian MP, Senhiy Leshchenko. He was an investigative jounnalist, undenstand A is that what you ? That is my undenstanding fnom news neponts and othens. I'm not sune I've actually met him pensonally. a Okay. And do you know what exactly he published when he put out the infonmation on Manafort? I mean, I can tny to nememben those fon you if you want. But it's not -- I have A My undenstandings ane based on news neponts, So, no -- a Okay. You don't have any firsthand discussed A at the Embassy at the We time? discussed the news, but no panticulanly -- I information on it wasn't I don't rememben any -- I have no infonmation that was not othenwise I it available in the news, and I'm not even sune nemember have connectly. at the time that it gets tnicky when, you know, officials in the Ukraine ane dabbling in what could be considened the U.S. -- in the nun-up to the U.S. election? a Was A We thene any concenn expnessed widely undenstood that Manafont had been wonking fon manifestly connupt Pnesident. And it was the a common undenstanding - - and again, I'm not substantiating this on any concnete facts, but this is was my common undenstanding that I that he had engaged in cniminal activity payments. UNCLASS I FIED had fnom my time thene, and was getting iI}egaI UNCLASS And this was pant and parcel of 74 I FIED how opposition bloc operated, that they had -- thene wene -- which was the party that he was advising, and thene was connuption and money flows. that's all just knowledge of that. But a Do you have any common undenstanding, I have no dinect familianity with ? A No. a Okay. A No. a ) How about Okay. In the nun-up to the 2016 election, thene was an op-ed by the Uknainian Ambassador to the U.S., Ambassadon Cha1y. Do you that nememben op-ed? A I do not. a Okay. And it was taking issue with then-candidate Tnump's some statements he had made neganding Cnimea. A I don't nememben that op-ed. a okay. Thene's an Intenion Ministen somebody A in the Uknaine, Avakov. Is that you'ne familian with? Yes. a And he's a nathen influential penson at pnesent, isn't he? A I don't know at pnesent, but he centainly was in the time that I was in Kyiv. UNCLASS I FIED 75 UNCLASS I EIED a And he's one Ponoshenko to of the few that sunvived the tnansition fnom Zelensky? A I left befone the new govennment was formed, so -a Okay. A -- if you say so, I believe that, but I don't know fon sune. a Okay. He had some negative Facebook posts and other social media activity with negand to then-candidate Trump. Did you have any familianity with that? A No. My discussions with Ministen Avakov wene nelating to the -- wene stnictly nelated to a town called Tunakanay (ph), which the Russians and the Uknainians figune out if we with occupying, and we trying to could negotiate a withdnawal of fonces from that area. And so we had discussions and wene both with oun assistant secnetany at the time Pyatt about Ambassadon how to do that. And the Russian just to raze the whole town and then withdnaw. That's all. The limits of my intenactions with him in Kyiv wene nelated to nesponse was that. And then he came hene had a pnoposal fon an And so those wene inkblot to panticipate in the USIP event whene he appnoach to nestoning control over the only issues in which I engaged Donbas. with him on. a Okay. Fain enough. Do you have any -- what was youn undenstanding of the intenagency decisionmaking pnocess with negand to lavelins in Uknaine in 2016? policy then A changed in 2OL7, What do you know about that? My undenstanding was thene was bnoad support fnom the UNCLASS I FIED The 76 F]ED UNCLASS I intenagency, and that Ambassadon Volken was consulted by then Secnetany Mattis on his deputy. And I was -- don't they would check with him to and I'm not sune, but make sune he that he supponted this policy. And and we I just nemember that at one point we wene got a ca11, we set up a call through the Secnetany on we wene still his senior advisons, tnavellng in Embassy and they wanted to London, eithen the make sune that suppontive, on that he was still suppontive, Ambassador of providing Javelins. And he agneed that he was. And they discussed the impontance of this issue. And then it Volken was suppontive was handled a at levels What was above my -- the administnation's position befone 20L7 ' going back 2OL6, 2Ot5? A Thene was -- my undenstanding of the policy was not want to pnovide lethal defensive assistance because undenmine the unity of oun that we did it would -- with the Eunopeans, and would possibly escalate the conflict with the Russians. a Okay. And do you know what changed between when the administnation -- when thene was a switchoven in administrations? Do you know what motivated the change? A My undenstanding was it was a -- weII, I don't -- I pnivy to the top leve1 policy discussions. on the gnound had changed Advison had we wene to told us pnovide I wilI say was not the situation in tenms of the Genman National Security that he didn't think it would be a big problem if it. UNCLASS ] FIED UNCLASS 77 I FIED In fact, he made a joke to us, which was that, we}I, of course, they will have people in complain about pnoviding it, but they weapons to the Genman militany as weII. So Genmany who that -- that's will complain out it stuck in my head. So the Genman position seemed to soften. The conflict at that we thought why point was much olden and it was clean that it escalated. But beyond that I would -- yeah, I would have to dinect you to the White House fon policy on the pnincipals. Okay. The Pnesident's a concenn about Uknaine's atmosphene of connuption, what was youn undenstanding of the Pnesident's beLiefs on I this, A and how did he get there? So NSC -- I dinect knowledge have no when we have no -- I of have neven met Pnesident Tnump and what he believes. I -- in Uknaine when the tnansition Uknaine was happened, know that the Pnesident of of the view that, oh, conruption would no longen matten. telling oun countenpants was, weI1, the language may change in the sense of it may not be the good governance, nule of law And what we wene language that was happening befone, but U.S. was still concenned about of is that this issue we assuned him it that the to the heant a -- that was -- that is the only thing I can speak because went oun assistance effective. So that was to, is what we wene telling the Uknainians at the time was that, don't think that we no longen cane about connuption. We may be using diffenent wonds, it's about business climate. And if thene is no -- if thene is connuption, then there is no -- it's hand fon us to get business UNCLASS I FIED 78 UNCLASS hene and hand a to his I FIED fon us to justify pnoviding assistance. Do you know whethen the Pnesident's concenns were nelated expenience as a businessman? A I do not know. A And then the influence of Kolomoisky, I believe you mentioned that eanlier. A a Conrect. l.,that was the view of the genuine thneat Kolomoisky pnesented to the new administnation, the new Zelensky A I'm not sune I the thneat a was of undenstand administnation? the question. what did I think KolomoiskY? we1I, what was the considened judgment of the intenagency neganding Kolomoisky? A I don't know if I I can can nepresent the intenagency te1I you that Pnesident Zelensky came to a senvant of the people, as his slogan is. wnit Iange. powen pnomising And if he were to be to punsue the interests of a single oligarch, that would undermine oun effonts. But I don't think a was I can speak to anything broaden. there any concenn that while on one hand Pnesident Zelensky was elected on an Kolomoisky platfonm, on the othen hand was -- you know, had the suppont of a majon oliganch that had his he own cornuption allegations? A I'm not sune I question would necessanily accept the pnemise in the sense of we did not know to the extent -- it a given that he nea11y nepresented Kolomoisky. UNCLASS I FIED of that was not 79 UNCLASS I a F]ED OkaY. A It was a Was it Kolomoisky was a supponten of his? Is that fain? A He had appeaned on Kolomoisky's TV channel, and Pnesident Zelensky -- on then-candidate Zelensky said -- was quite clean that he did not nepnesent Kolomoisky, and quite significantly on his channel, and that Kolomoisky had benefited fnom his pnesence, fnom Zelensky's content being that he didn't think he owed Kolomoisky anything. -- I don't -- yeah, Ithinkthat'swhatwe knew. a Do you know if the National Secunity Council officials, Dn. So, you know, we HilI and Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, had concenns about Kolomoisky? A I think you'd have to ask them. a Okay. But you don't nememben any discussions whene they naised that with you? A Thene wene discussions about that it was impontant that Zelensky demonstnate his independence and punsue Kolomoisky refonm, I think that's -- I think that's about all I can say to that. a In youn view, did Pnesident Zelensky demonstnate that, at Ieast up until the time that you left the post? A When I left on July 12th he had not had -- he did not even have his own foneign ministen in pIace. a Okay. So it was too early? A 5o it was too eanly. a Okay. The inaugunation, that you spoke earlien today in but anothen round of questioning about how quickly the delegation had to UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASS I come 80 FIED togethen, and you mentioned youn involvement with that, looking for a Cabinet secretany. was an And at one point I think you said that thene intenest in having the Vice Pnesident join the delegation? A 0n to lead the delegation. But, yeah. a And, ultimately, the Vice Pnesident was unable to do that. Is that because of scheduling conflicts on -A I don't know. a Do you know any facts about that decision of the Vice President not to go? A I don't. Okay. a And the inaugunation was put togethen in 3 on 4 days? How was A It Embassy told was put togethen veny quickly. What the Uknainian me was that Zelensky wanted to seize the moment, and thene lot of back and fonth oven when the inaugunation would take place, some pnoposals fon it being I think as late as June 5th on 6th. But that Zelensky wanted to seize the moment, I think was the -- on strike was a while the inon is hot, on something to that effect. But I don't That was just what was nelayed me by an Embassy official. the U.S. had 3 on 4 days to put this delegation togethen? a A We had to a Okay. What was So to know. scnamble, yes. the nexus fon Secretany of Enengy to involved with this trip? A I do not know. I believe I received an email on a communication of some sont that said that he was available and UNCLASS 1 FIED be UNCLASS 81 IFIED intenested. We looked at -- I I was not the one dinectly involved with c1ean, input. Thene was a question and they wene or some of thene were some -- and, again, just to it, but be I was pnoviding othen people also panticipating, -- sevenal people wene eithen unavailable on at funenals othen situation. So as him on nememben to why Secnetany Perny was intenested, you'd have to ask his staff. a Wene you even in any meetings with Secnetany Penry? A I was in two meetings that I can necall. One was the White House pnep meeting befone his meeting with the Pnesident, other was the meeting at Department of and then the Enengy on June 18th. a Okay. You know, at some point I believe Ambassadon Sondland stanted nepnesenting himself, Ambassadon Volken, Secnetany Penny as the thnee amigos. Is that something you nememben? A thnough That does sound my emails, and Genman familian. Although, when I I also saw that as a nefenence colleagues. So I'm not sune a Okay. And what was the, as it looked back to myself and my Fnench if that nelated to Ambassadon Sondland, Volken, and Secretany Penny, what was the thnee amigos? Do you rememben whene that came from? A I don't. It complex a was policy issue, so the thnee of them wonking togethen on a -- but beyond that, I don't -- I don't know. Did you even hean Ambassadon Volken refen to himself of the thnee amigos, on was that mostly a Sondland thing? UNCLASS ] FIED as one UNCLASS 82 I FIED A I don't nememben Ambassadon Volken using that phnase. a Okay. In youn time wonking fon Ambassadon Volken, he's somebody you had gneat nespect fon? Is that fain? A I do. He is a veny accomplished diplomat, veny polished and very good at public diplomacy. And a Somebody who always I leanned a lot wonking with him. acted, to the best of youn knowledge, with honesty and integnity? A He was committed to a mission, and he believed that it was vital that the U.S. stand with Uknaine and that we push back against Russian aggnession. And that, I think, was a cone belief of his that has motivated him fon a long time, and I shaned that belief. a Now, wene you wonking fon Ambassadon Volker duning the time peniod when he stanted to wonk with Yenmak on a possible statement that President Zelensky would make to demonstrate his commitment to Kolomoisky? A I am not So all I can say is to awane of any effont he had been of his to craft a statement. in touch with Yenmak, who was believed be the next National Secunity Advison, but what they discussed, don't know. That was night as I was finishing I up. a And he had a pnetty good relationship with Yermak, to the best of youn knowledge? A I believe they had met once on twice by the time I left. a So their nelationship was just in the eanly stages? A As fan as a How I can necall, yes. about with Danylyuk? Did Ambassadon Volken have a good UNCLASS I FIED 83 UNCLASS]FIED nelationship with Danylyuk, to youn knowledge? A To my knowledge, they met sevenal times and they seemed to get along nelatively welI, although meeting with them together. But seemed I don't know if I I don't was even nememben. But in a he -- but Ambassadon Volken seemed to nespect Danylyuk and believe he was helpful. But I'd consummate add one diplomat. he demonstnated thing about And Volker, I think in oun last tnip that by -- feminist socialist, Ambassadon we met of Sweden, is a togethen in Tononto with the socialist, Foneign Ministen whene he hen own phnase, the nationalist, his of Hungany, and sevenal EU officials and Uknainian officials, and alI of them, despite thein divense political penspectives, all thought Volker was an ally and a key pantner. tenm, Foneign Minister And I think that veny much was Ambassadon Volken's appnoach, which was to talk to people in the tenms of neference that they undenstood and to tny and wonk with people to get them to the right pIace. a many The tnip to Tononto you took with Ambassadon Volken tnips do you nememben taking with A It was about one a month. 2@ how him? My wife insisted it be no mone than one a month because thene was a lot of probably anound -- tnavel. So it was sevenal, oe so, oven the 2 yeans. a And what do you nememben about the tnip to Tononto? A It was a full schedule. We stanted -- we had meetings fnom 6 o'cLock in the monning to I think about t@ o'clock at night. We met with Pnesident Zelensky, which was supposed to be a UNCLASS ] EIED UNCLASS I 3O-minute meeting, and Pnime Minister Tnudeau And we met 84 F]ED I think it lasted almost an houn, and we kept waiting. with, as I mentioned, the Swedish Foneign Ministen, officials, civil society. And we did a pness -- he did a pness bniefing. And we also the Polish and Hunganian Foneign Ministens, senion had some time to listen to Pnime EU Ministen Tnudeau speak. And he also attended a dinner with the foneign ministens and othen high leve1 officials. a How many othen meetings wene you in with Pnesident Zelensky? A I'm pnetty sune thene was only one other meeting that I met with him, where I was in a meeting with him, and that was in Kyiv. And that would have been before the finst round of the elections, if I rememben connectly. So befone he was Pnesident. a The meeting in Tononto, what do you necall fnom that meeting? A Thene was a What was the date of that again? A July Lst on 2nd. a July 1st or 2nd. A And I wrote up a summany, an infonmal summany, which I sent anound. Thene was also a foimal cable summanizing the fuII tnip. But it was a discussion about -- Pnesident Zelensky neitenated meeting. Pnesident Volken that he wanted a White House make a -- to set up a phone call with Pnesident Pnesident Zelensky expnessed obviate the need fon a White House some concenn visit, UNCLASS IF]ED unged him to Tnump. that penhaps and Pnesident -- that might Ambassadon UNCLASS 85 ] F]ED that it would not, that developing a pensonal Volken assuned him nelationship with the Pnesident would be helpful to the effont of a hlhite House visit. Pnesident Zelensky neiterated that they had made pnogness on few of the aneas we had identified. secuning agneement to the pnocess, purchase Javelins, that they had just whlch had gone And some to I believe some a They wene making pnogress on papenwonk, buneaucnatic reality to announced some energy tendens U.S. companies. thene was one other anea of pnogness, and thene was discussion about what Pnesident Putin had been doing, about some what wene called disengagement aneas whene the two sides wene hoping to cneate a line of sepanation between the two fonces. I the idea that we had come up with tny and identify three aneas we could stant that And nisk, build some sepanation when was in Kyiv wene sont was of to lowen thene between the fonces, and then over time expand along the line of contact. And so thene was a particulan focus on one town called Sanysluhanskin (ph), so he talked about that. We also talked about the possibility of a joint visit with Ambassadon Volker and Pnesident Zelensky. His advisor laten puIled 't think Pnesident Zelensky could do that trip. But we talked about a joint visit of some sont laten that month. him aside and don Okay. Did you talk about the 7/!O a Bolton said, I meeting with Danylyuk and upcoming? A Not a And what othen U.S. State Depantment that I'm awane of. UNCLASS] FIED officials wene thene UNCLASS in the meeting, A do you Deputy -- rememben? Assistant Secretany Kent was there. There would to been also the to the , who I believe the name is U. N. oun Ambassadon But oun Ambassadon was thene. A was thene as 86 I FIED wel1. And Canada, who Cook, is have now oun Ambassadon I think, but I'm not centain. political officen fnom the Embassy I think our Assistance Coordinaton was also thene. a Ambassadon Sondland was not thene? A I don't believe so. a Ambassadon Taylor wasn't either? A No, I believe he was in Kyiv. Yes, he had sent in an email the day befone the meeting highlighting -- summanizing pnogress on delivenabtes and trying a to nefine some things that we could ask. And do you nememben any discussion Ambassadon Volken, about any of these with Pnesident Zelensky, -- the investigations of 2@16 on Bunisma? A No. But thene was some discussion about the -- one of the of the Ukrainian delegation made a joke about, we won't hold you accountable fon -- don't hold me accountable fon who I nepnesented membens as a he lawyen. fon Kolomoisky. And accountable fon who my clients wene. And joke about Giuliani as we1l. But that was it. I He had been a lawyen who had wonked said, wel1, don't hold then thene was don't nememben a A some me the actual sont of the -- A lightheanted moment? Yes. UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS 87 I FIED [4:39 p.m.] BY MR. CASTOR: A I don't nememben the actual -- the a A lightheanted moment? A Yes. a And they undenstood the Uknainians, to the best of youn knowledge, undenstood that Ambassadon Vo1ker, DAS Kent, nepnesented the interest of the United States? A Yes, they wene -- Ambassadon Volken was seen not just the negotiator, but as the a request, that So if thene is an official bnoaden in many ways voice on Uknaine policy. U.S. position, on an official U.S. a reliable penson to Ambassadon Volken would be communicate ? A I don't know what the Uknainians believed, but Ambassadon Volken was oun -- to policy. canry fonth a my understanding was he was So what he stated I tnusted by the Secnetany took to be U.S. policy. Did you even have any discussions aften the meeting with Kent about what occurned DAS in that meeting? A Um -a Did DAS Kent expness any concenns? A I don't believe we discussed -- I don't nememben discussing that tnip. I think he then went on leave night aftenwands and I finished up, so a Okay. -- Did DAS Kent send you any neadout of the meeting, on did you send my neadouts younself? UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS A I 88 I EIED sent out a neadout to the bnoader State Depantment audience. a meeting So you wene the penson that did the email, summanizing the ? A I didn't necond was from email summanizing the meeting, but the the Embassy. Thene was an Embassy cable summanizing the tnip and othen things, but I sent an email that was -- the idea that that would be the gnist fon the note taken, but I wanted official most of it. There was an official to get a quick summany out to people, so they if necessary. a Did the official note taken, DAS Kent, take issue with youn could take action neadout A of the meeting? No. a Okay. So thene was no dispute about what had occunned thene? A No. a Okay. And so, like you said, thene was no mention of investigations, on a statement, on anything of that sont. It was just a lighthearted A a Not moment that I about Rudy Giuliani? nememben. Do you nememben any Zelensky do a CNN intenview discussion about having Pnesident talking about his anticonnuption initiatives A No. a -- on any othen intenview on TV? A No. UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS a When undencut hen did you finst ability to 89 I FIED become awane that thene was an effont to senve as ambassadon? A I actually don't know much about this situation. I -- I was outside that -- that pnocess. a A Okay. So I don't know much, yeah. a When did you become awane that thene was an issue? A I think Apnil, maybe May. a And how did you become awane of it? Was it news accounts, on was it intennal State Depantment? A I think it was pnobably at a staffmeeting, but f'm not sune. I don't rememben. a 0kay. And do you nememben what was communicated genenally? A What I nememben -- what I nememben leanning was that thene was -- they wene considening withdnawing hen fnom Kyiv. And this was right anound the time, I believe, she was back in D.C. to receive a -- she was inducted into the National Defense Univensity's HalI of Fame for hen excellent service. And I think that is when I -- I believe that is around the time when I heand that she may not go back, on she may be necalled. a situation Did you have any discussion with Ambassadon Volker about the ? A I notified him that that was a possibility. And I asked if -- a tweet, on anything of that natune. And he said, not at this moment, and then he -- yeah. he wanted to do a statement of suppont UNCLASS on do any IF]ED UNCLASS a He had knowledge 90 FIED a good nelationship with hen, to the best of youn ? the best of A To a Do you know she was 1 -- just if my knowledge, he spoke to they did. hen duning that time peniod when befone she was necalled on bnought home, whateven the appnopniate tenm is? A I believe I tnied to set up a phone call at one point, and he told me that he'd alneady spoken to hen. a Okay. You had worked with Ambassadon Yovanovitch relatively closely, I think you mentioned. A Yes. a And so you had a lot of nespect to hen? A I a do. Did you have any communications with hen while oh, on aften she had this was going come home? A I attended hen induction into the National Defense University HaIl of Fame, and my -- I continued to have contact with hen. There was a funeral fon hen mothen, I think on Satunday, I attended that funenal. a Okay. Sonny to hean the passing of hen mothen. When she was visiting with us, we undenstood that hen mothen was not doing weII, so we centainly pass oun condolences aIong. A It is a tough peniod, yes. a Did Ambassadon Yovanovitch even nelate to you the sounce of her being bnought home? UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS A No. a So you never had any 97 IFIED discussions about Rudy Giuliani, whether to he was amplifying a negative nannative nelating A not have She would -- hen? hor she's a consummate pnofessional, and would engaged me on those issues. if Ambassadon Volken tnied do anything to engage wlth State Depantment officials, to suppont Ambassadon Yovanovitch a Do you know prior to this time period? A I do not know. a You neven had any discussion with him about it? A I asked him about, as I said, about whethen we should do a tweet, and he said no. And at one point, we wene discussing another way that we could maybe when neceiving this would amplify awand that the State, the Embassy announced hen fon the Nationa] Defense Univensity, whether and congratulate hen, but by we that point, she had -- I'm not sune the Embassy ever did an announcement of that. a Aften you Ieft, there was a hold put on centain Uknaine aid. I believe that was on July L8th I believe, it was July L8th. Did you been have any advanced wanning A a that that was going to be an issue? No. So at the time that you depanted youn post, thene wene no issues negarding aid? A I did not know anything a Duning the tnansition what wene some negarding aid by the time that I left. peniod with younself and Ms. Cnoft, of the tnansition tnicky points? UNCLASS IF]ED You pointed out to hen about some .A Rudy the job, specifically about the of these nontnaditional I don't believe we fonms of discussed Giuliani specifically. We 92 FIED UNCLASS I Rudy Giuliani diplomacy that component in wene ongoing? -- I don't nememben discussing talked a 1ot about the substance of negotiations. I sti11 sincenely believed that we might be able to get nushed back to the negotiating tab1e. So we talked about sequencing an intenim peacekeeping fonce; what special status would look what you need to do in the fall; what ane some things like; coming up; a lot of discussion about Ambassadon Vo1ken's possible joint visit to the front lines of eastenn Uknaine. And as you might imagine, onganizing visit to a wan zone is complicated. And so thene was a lot of discussion of that. I think thene was discussion about wonking with Ambassador Taylon. But pant of the reason she -- she spent in Kyiv. a Pant of that there. But a me, as it advance was to I don't rememben a specific Pnion to wonks here on the Hill team convensation about Giuliani. youn intenview hene today, and you'11 have sometimes to excuse the minonity doesn't have notice of what witnesses ane coming, and fon what reason, get to show up, and so we do. We like to panticipate in way. Did you have any idea about why the in nelationship with the make sune she had a good we a meaningful committees wene intenested speaking with you? A I had expected Ambassadon Volken that fon a long time since I that eithen was wonking fon my documents on myself would be subpoenaed, but a Okay. So it was just because you wene wonking with UNCLASS I F]ED UNCLASS ] Ambassadon to 93 FIED Volker that you thought the committees would want to speak you? A I think you have -- yeah. I'm not sune I undenstand. Did anybody give you any topics that wene of panticular a intenest today? A I had no advance notice of what specific questions on I pnepaned by reviewing my notes, but neviewing my emails, and tnying to, sont of, make sune I had an undenstanding of the timeline in my head. comments, so Okay. Did anybody at the State a you not to panticipate, othen than letten A Othen than Unden Secnetany a -- Depantment encounage fnom Unden Secnetany Bulatao? -- communications, did they come and asking if you had any tny to te1I you not to -- I'm -- A I neceived some emails, and I notified them of my attonney, that I had an attonney, and then they dinected all communications to him. So I don't know if you want to ask him. MR. CASTOR: I don't. MR. MACDOUGALL: I'm not answering any questions and I'm not unden oath. MR. CASTOR: I didn't indicate I MR. MACDOUGALL: Ask was going to ask any questions. the witness youn next question. BY MR. CASTOR: a pnocess So did anybody in L encourage you not to panticipate in this ? UNCLASS I FIED 94 UNCLASS] FIED A I believe I had one email initially. I don't nememben it was fnom, but I notified them I had an attonney, and all communications went through him so who -- a How about anybody in leg affains? A I don't remember. It was eithen, I neceived an email fnom maybe it was one on two emails, and it was eithen fnom L on H, I don't nememben which they wene. I immediately just said, Okay, this is about this issue, talk to my lawyen. I did not want to get involved in a sort of a -- yeah. I wanted to make sune my lawyen was involved in all those things. a neganding Wene you a pant collection of A I was of any meetings at the State Depantment documents? calIed. I am now a language student, so I do not work building. So when thene was a subpoena, they called me and said you need to -- thene was a tasken fnom oun executive secnetariat saying, Hene is what you need to do, and I made a point of doing that. And I think it was time 24 houns. And so I in the main State Depantment stopped my studying and wonked on making sune all my documents wene that if thene were relevant documents, where they would be in my office, on my fonmen office. MR. CASTOR: My time is uP. available. And I notified people MR. GOLDMAN: Should we take a 5 minute bneak? MR. MACDOUGALL: YCS. MR. GOLDMAN: Come back at 5:o'clock. I Recess . ] UNCLASS I FIED 95 UNCLASS ] FIED MR. GOLDMAN: We ane back on nound of 45 minutes, the necond. And majonity's Mn. Mitchell. BY MR. MITCHELL: a You testified eanlien that Ambassadon Volker had what you described as a fonwand-leaning appnoach. What dld you mean by that? A That he wanted the govennment to be nimble, and to make policy decisions quickly, and not spend endless -- not to go thnough endless committee neviews, and we know what we want do, Iet's go ahead and do it. that affect the way in which he conducted diplomacy? We had many discussions about the need to move quickly and tny to get things done. So in that nespect, I would say, yes, but -- so a A Did a You yeah. about, testified eanlier that Dn. Hill expnessed fnustnation I think you said what we wene doing, but I don't think you elaborated what that was. Do you necall what you wene doing that caused fnustnation by Dn. Hill? A I actually don't and I think -- I don't necalI. It was around the time of a Pnesidential meeting with his -- with Pnesident Putin, but I don't nememben which one it was, and I don't rememben the specific issue that it was. a To the best of youn necollection, did it have anything to do with Uknaine? A It coondination -- I necall is that it was a question of and hen not getting -- being fnustnated because she was mone what UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS 96 I FIED thought she should have known something. But substance, and doing. It a was not something she disagneed about what we wene was mone infonmation told you A a sont of questions. that? lrlhat was youn undenstanding issue? A What I understood was, would move I of what Ambassadon Volker meant had hoped that this was a passing -- that was linked to maybe Serhiy something e1se, and on. Volken was wanning that the tweets would And Ambassador Volken me that this might still a was not going Yes. this and so management that this issue, that being Rudy Giuliani, issue that with we flow, testified eanlien that you had a communication with Volken in which -- some time in May, I think it was, in which to go away. Do you necall by rememben the You Ambassadon he it I don't No, be Leshchenko on the end of the stony and -- I took it to mean Ambassadon Giuliani is not moving on to other issues, be a pnoblem fon us moving forwand. You mentioned Leshchenko. But what do you mean by "this issug"? A So Mn. Giuliani tweeted that thene wene enemies around -- enemies of the Pnesident anound Zelensky. And we took it to be pnoblematic fon impnoving oun nelationship if he was still spneading that message, that thene wene enemies that Ukraine -- the people anound Pnesident Zelensky wene enemies that is a what I meant by of the President. this issue. hJith the President being Pnesident UNCLASS I FIED Tnump? So 97 UNCLASS I EIED A Enemies A a A Connect. of Pnesident Tnump anound Pnesident Zelensky. a A11 night. And this issue was one that you wene concerned with at the time, cornect? As was Ambassadon Vo1ken? We discussed, assuming what he was concerned with, but was something a it to discuss and impnove. But can you explain why -- was Rudy Giuliani just any o1d this, these effonts in Uknaine, on was youn concenn nelated at all to the fact that Giuliani had a close U.S. citizen who was doing nelationship with Pnesident A WeII, Tnump? I don't actually his nelationship know how cLose was -- with the Pnesident. I -- but what I wonnied was that he would -- that if this continued, it would influence the President's with his thinking about Uknaine, and that would be problematic fon oun efforts to neenengize oun nelationship. a It could have A a was youn undenstanding some at the time that Rudy Giuliani influence oven Pnesident Tnump? Connect. To be clean again, when you say "this issuer" you'ne talking about Rudy Giu1iani, but you'ne also talking about specifically the investigations that he was peddling into Biden, Bunisma the 2016 U.S. elections, connect? A Not pnecisely. I was -- it was mone the sense that Uknaine was -- thene ane enemies in Uknaine that Uknaine was not an aIIy. I UNCLASS ] FIED UNCLASS 98 IEIED believe that Uknaine -- that Uknaine is a strong pantnen of the United States, we have stnong secunity nelationships, and the Uknainian Govennment that that it is trying to achieve closer integnation with the West, and was a cone prionity, and, thenefone, intenest. achieved oun U.S. penception, this, And wonth supponting because what I took to be false is thene wene enemies of the Pnesident in the Pnesident's administration was inaccunate, and would be a pnoblem fon our policy moving fonwand. a You'ne focusing now on that specific tweet, but Rudy Giu1iani, as you testified eanlien, in investigations as well Uknaine, connect? A in was pushing Thene wene news neponts about that in The Hi1I, I believe, Manch and Apni1. a And you testified a couple of times about separating genenal anticonnuption effonts with conducting specific investigations. did you mean A by specific investigations? Thene wene news neponts news neponts back in Manch and that I've since nead -- there wene Apnil, that was nefenning to Bunisma, and I of detail. undenmine a So what I effonts to knew was and from what was I leanned Iaten, not involved in that level that Giuliani had the potential to impnove nelations. But on July 10th, yoU indicated that you had a convensation with Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, A a What connect? Conrect. About -- was that about specific investigations? UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS I 99 FIED A I don't nememben the full details of that convensation. What I remember is the message f sent back to Ambassadon Volker, which was -- which was talking more the bnoaden policy, and I nelayed that Vindman had said -- had expnessed concenn about the need to maintain oun policy and keep it separate fnom investigations and collusion. a When you say "collusion," you mean -- what do you mean by collusion ? to mean genenal concenns that I don't even know the contouns, the specific contouns of this idea, but it was A I took that neferning to some idea that Ukraine was involved, that it was Uknaine involved in the 2016 election, not Russia. But again, I to sont out the details of that situation, so I just knew was a theony about Intelligence a this tnied that thene the 2016 election that did not match with what oun Community had And have not identified, communication and that that that you had with was a confusion. Ambassadon Volker nelaying Lieutenant Colonel Vindman's concenns on July 10th, was that following an eanlien meeting on Ju1y 10th at the White Uknainian delegation that Vindman was House with a pant of? A I don't knowwhene it falls in the sequence of events ofthat day. I can check the time stamp, but I don't rememben at the moment. a Can you necalI whethen VoIken was pant of that same meeting? A I believe he was, but I don't -- I believe that there was an effont that he would be involved. I don't nememben if he actually was. He had a veny complicated schedule of tnaveling a lot fon both this job and fon his othen job. So, I don't know -- and when I was UNCLASS IFIED UNCLASS looking through my notes, meeting. I don't know if I he saw 100 I FIED that he was authonized actually attended, to be in the I don't nememben that. a So you didn't talk to Ambassador Volken about that meeting? A No, I think -- ro, not that I nememben. a Okay. To the best of youn recollection, sitting here night now, today, do you neca1l what Lieutenant CoIoneI Vindman that told you about meeting? A No. fact, I didn't A11 I necall is what I mentioned about nelaying it. rememben back thnough my notes that I had this convensation until I to tny and prepane, and I saw was this In looking message to Ambassadon Vo1ken. a Okay. A11 night. of May, thene was a May 29th Going back to the time peniod at the invitation letten fnom the White end House to Pnesident Zelensky. Wene you involved at a1l in the drafting of that letten on the issuance of the letten? A I was not. a 0n June 13th, in youn opening statement, accompanied Ambassador Vo1ker YoU say to a meeting with National that you Secunity Advisor lohn Bolton? A I think lune 13th was the Department of Enengy meeting. a Do you have youn statement in fnont of you, sin? Page 3. A So yeah, the 18th, yeah, okaY. a So that meeting on the 13th, it was Ambassador Volken, National Secunity Advisor Bolton. A The standand pnactice was Who else was thene? fon Dr. UNCLASSI FIED Hill to be there, Alex Vindman to someone else, but I don't 10L IF]ED UNCLASS be thene, and then possibly Ambassadon nememben Bolton's deputy on the actual set list. a Did you take notes duning that meeting? A Pnesumably. I don't rememben specific taking notes, but pnesumably I did. a Do you know if thene was a neadout fnom that meeting? A Thene was an infonmal one the definitely a neadout. And f sent Geonge, I would have sent a high side email day. Okay. a to finst thing in the monning so he would have something fon his monning meetings. And then laten that one And you indicate in youn opening statement that Bolton cautioned that Mn. 6iuliani was a key voice fon the Pnesident on Uknaine, which could be an obstacle to incneased White House engagement. What did National Security Advison Bolton say about Giuliani A Rudy ? To the best of my necollection, he made a joke about eveny time Uknaine is mentioned, Giuliani pops up and that the Pnesident was listening to Giuliani about Uknaine. A Anything else? A That is what I a nemember. Did anyone else -- how did anybody nespond to that comment by Bolton? A I don't nememben compnessed, and we covened think that's when we a response; these meetings wene pnetty a lot of gnound in those meetings. So I -- I think that's when we switched UNCLASS]F]ED to We11, could LO2 UNCLASS I we FIED get the Vice Pnesident to go to Tononto, on what ane some othen engagement options? a And be an obstacle also in youn opening statement, You said that this could to incneased White House engagement. What did you mean by that? A If Mn. Giuliani is saying that Uknaine is an enemy of the in Ukraine that ane an enemy of the Pnesident, then that would make it -- then the Pnesident would be Pnesident, on that thene ane people unlikely to engage on Ukraine issues, on develop a positive nelationship with the new administnation in Uknaine. a Because Pnesident Tnump may his pensonal attonney, says to to A Pnesumably. a And you listen to what Rudy Giu1iani, him? indicated that you nelayed a summary of this meeting DAS Kent? A Cornect. a Did you have a convensation with DAS Kent about this meeting as well? A a that I necall. A11 night. Then on June 18th, Not Secnetany Perny, the Depantment meeting fon of you had anothen meeting with Enengy, and thene was a pnepanatony that as well? A Not the no. We met Ambassadon Sondland fon coffee, I think, half an houn befone the meeting, but I don't know if that -- maybe -- that could be considened pneparatony, but not a broaden UNCLASSI FIED 103 UNCLASS]FIED pnepanatony a like When we had with the at the White House. you wene talking with Ambassadon Sondland did the topic of Rudy Giulianl on these investigations at coffee, come up? A Not that I rememben. a What about duning the meeting with Secnetany Penny? A I don't nemember any specific discussions about Giu1iani, but day, I know we that in my convensation talked about the need to make with Ambassadon Taylon sure we laten that don't talk about individual investigations, which -- yeah, so pnesumably, thene was something that made -- that made us discuss that. a What you mean by that is, there would have been a discussion duning a meeting with Secnetany Penny about individual on specific investigations based on youn communication aften the fact with Ambassadon Taylon? A I don't necall -- I don't necall that, and when I did the -- I did a summany email of the meeting, and thene is no mention of that. it may have so I don't necall So I think it was mone just a anything -- I don't think that's an accunate -- I don't think I can accurately say I recall that. a Do you know why you would have sensed this meeting -- sonry -- this communication to Ambassador Taylon aften the meeting neganding the impontance investigation A of not calling fon a specific ? Wel1, I caIled to talk to him about the atmosphenics of the meeting, the genenal mood, and how things ane going, and UNCLASS I F]ED how we could LO4 UNCLASS I move fonwand on these thnee lines of FIED effont. it So, may have been that it that way, but I nememben because -- I just rememben that we wene -- we did say it was important not to talk about -- not to push fon individual we knew he was wonried about Giuliani, and so maybe he naised investigations. a A thene is And why? if Because you'ne going a fonmal pnocess to do individual investigations for that, which is the, the Depantment of lustice and oun policy we should go thnough is fon anticonnuption wnit lange, not indivldual cases. a And when you say oun Depantment A policy, You mean the policy of the State ? Longstanding U.S. Govennment policy, as that we did not intenfene in individual cases. I undenstood it, We tnied to set was bnoad policy stnokes of moving fonwand of anticonnuption. a And, -- othen than it U.S. policy -- would it be a pnoblem in your mind, would it would be contnany to longstanding be a pnoblem to call fon investigations into specific cases, not thnough channel an MLAT ? A I would be concenned about changing policy without appnopniate considenation, but that is -- yeah. to Tononto at beginning of July which you also attended. Is that night? a You said eanlien about a delegation A a Connect. Do you neca1l Ambassadon VoIker meeting UNCLASS I FIED the with Pnesident 105 UNCLASS ] F]ED Zelensky during a puII-aside? -- as -- yes, aftenthe bigmeeting, he had a bnief puIl-aside with Pnesident Zelensky and a few of Zelensky's staffens. A Thenewas a Were you pnesent fon that puII-aside? A I was not pnesent for that -- weII, f was in the noom, but I was not pant of that convensation. a Othen than Volken and Pnesident Zelensky's staffens, who else was pant of that puII-aside? A I don't rememben. I don't nememben any othen U.S. official being pnesent in the pul1-aside. a Did Ambassadon Vo1ken teII you befone the pu}1-aside what he was doing? A No, it was have a pu1I-aside not uncommon. In fact, it was quite noutine to with the leadens to have a sma1l -- smallen session aften or befone meetings. a Did Ambassadon Volken tell you what happened duning the puI1-aside aften? A I don't a nememben Ane you awane getting a neadout of the pul1-aside. of a conference call on on about lune 28th between Ambassadon Volken, Sondland, Taylon, and Penny? A I rememben that thene was a -- thene wene convensations that they had. I'm including one that I think Ambassador Bo1ton onganized, but I don't rememben that one in panticulan. a Do you know whethen the same group of individuals Pnesident Zelensky on on about lune 28th by telephone? UNCLASS ] EIED spoke with 106 UNCLASSI FIED A I do not nememben. a Did Ambassadon Volken even tell communications close - hold that you that occunned on lune 28th need to these be kept veny ? A I -- I don't even nememben him telling me about these phone calls. So I don't -- sothenewould be no -- I don't nemember himalso saying keep it close-hold. MR. GOLDMAN: IDiscussion Off the necond. off the necond.] BY MR. GOLDMAN: a So Mn. Andenson, a couple have any knowledge By of just general questions. Do you of any convensations on communications -- withdnawn. the time that you left on July 12th, did you have any knowledge of any conversations, on communications, between Ambassadon officials might initiate? A No. I don't any Uknainian Vo1ken and about any specific investigations that Uknaine nememben -- I don't necalI Ambassador Volker talking about specific investigations. a A a testimony How about Not So that tenm, on the tenm "investigations"? that I necall. if he did, he just didn't tell you about it. Is that youn ? A Ifhe -- onthat I don't rememben, because I -- all I'm saying is I don't nememben that. So if he a Okay. You've outlined a numben of convensations that you UNCLASS I FIED 107 UNCLASS I F]ED had with vanious American officials about this issue of investigations. Ane there any othen convensations with any Amenican officials about bnoadly the notion the media at a of investigations that minimum wene in the -- that wene in that you can necall? A You'ne talking about at the time I by the time I left. a By the time you left A In the last -- few weeks. a What I'm tnying to get at is not what you've nead in the pness A a Right. - but any conversations you had in youn nole as a Foneign Senvice officen, whethen it was befone July 12th, on penhaps aften JuIy - 12th. A I had discussions Embassy, whene I with my countenpart neitenated that our policy was anticonnuption and antitnust nefonm bnoadly, that what he was reading at the Uknainian to punsue we wene in the press, that was despite not, despite these othen things, what we were focusing on were these issues. a individual in oun Embassy A to have that convensation with this in Uknaine? What prompted you This would have been hene with a Uknainian diplomat, and would have been penhaps him asking, We}l, what's going nememben the specifics, but convensation a in it would be it nesponse about news reponts. And when was this? UNCLASS I E]ED was it on? I don't the type of UNCLASS A a 108 I FIED This would have been May on June. And othen -- what I don't necall specifics. specifically in the news neponts did this Uknainian diplomat ask you about? A I don't nememben. a But do you neca1l about investigations A I nememben that it nelated to having a convensation about anticonnuption, in anticornuption, anticornuption count, nelated to PnivatBank, to -- and of these nannatives in the media? what we neally wanted him do and some which related illicit that was neally what oun key leveIs and to the investment (ph) wene that we wanted on anticornuption. a I undenstand, but what did he ask you about? That's the question. I thing I have to be careful about is saying what a foneign official told me specifically. lust as a genenal nu1e, I don 't think we do that, but I don't recall specifics. What I nememben is a general discussion about this topic, and so, I could pnesume what would spark that, but I don't think that's appropriate fon me to speculate. But what I nemember is that we had a discussion about what A So one oun actual policies were. a But you undenstood that the news neponts at the time nelated to investigations of Biden and Bunisma and the 20L6 election? A I nememben there was confusion, so I neitenated what actual policy was. But I don't a nememben Okay. UNCLASS] FIED the details. oun 109 UNCLASS You have been hewing veny I FIED closely to this idea of this tweet that I am going to show you a news anticle, which we'll mank as exhibit 1, which is a May 9th, you have in youn opening statement about Amenicans. 2O19, New Yonk Times anticle. IMajonity Exhibit No. fon identification. l was manked MR. GOLDMAN: Do you want MR. CASTOR: I a 2 copy? have one. MR. GOLDMAN: Sonny, we'ne at exhibit 2. You put r'1rr in. BY MR. GOLDMAN: a Is this anticle familian to you? A I don't nemember the specific anticle, but this does, but I nemember this issue coming up. And I subscnibe to The New York Times. a Okay. WeII, I'm just going to nead a couple of panagnaphs that I think are nelevant: Mn. Giuliani said he plans to tnavel to Kyiv, the Uknainian capital, in the coming days and wants to the nation's Pnesident-elect to urge him to punsue meet with inquiries that allies of the White House contend could yield new infonmation about two matters of intenest -- intense intenest to Mn. Tnump. One is the onigin of the Special Counsel's investigation into Russia's intenfenence in the 2016 election. The othen is the involvement of fonmen vice pnesident Joseph R. Biden's son and a gas company owned by a Uknainian oliganch. this is May 9th. And you said you subscnibe to The New York Times, night? And youn entine job is to focus on Uknaine? So UNCLASS I FIED 110 UNCLASS A Yes. a Fain to say -A Sonny. a Fair to say that if I E]ED The New Yonk Times has an Uknainian foneign policy, that that's something anticle that would about have come to your attention? A I was awane of this issue, yes. a So is it also fair to say that as of anound this time, You wene awane that it wasn't just the tweet about Pnesident Trump having enemies in Uknaine, but you wene also awane that Rudy Giuliani was pushing Uknaine to initiate these two investigations? A Yes. a Okay. And so, fnom that point fonwand, eveny nefenence to specific investigations that you testified hene Is that accunate? A I wouldn't -- I think it's being a these two investigations. knewthat thene was this issue out here -- this little specific. If we -- out thene, the tnip did get canceled, and we knew that thene was thene be why to today, nelated to effort. I think that would goes along with why we wene talking with Taylon about to avoid specific investigations. This would also be why, penhaps, the Uknainians wene asking, We1I, what is the policy, and I the need reitenate what oun official policy was. a I actually intentionally, on these am tnying to get you to be mone specific because you continue mattens. And to dnaw it out to say I'm wondening, ane thene any - UNCLASS I FIED this issue when Ambassadon UNCLASS 111 I EIED Taylon nefenences specific investigations on June 18th, are thene any othen specific investigations that you think he might be refenning to than these two, Biden, Bunisma, and 2016 election? A f'm not sune I can -- I think you'ne asking me -- we wene not specific, because this was not because this was an issue floating anound I think -- we wene not that specific outside oun official purview, official duties, and so, it was something we wene awane of, but we wene not focused on this. This tnip was canceled. I mean, this was not my official nesponsibility. I was awane of it, we knew thene was nisk that if this continued, it could impact oun official outside of oun duties, but this was that Hey, this is focus on. it So something you need to take care of me at the time on you need to -- I think the neason we wene not specific is we was knew thene was some trying to -- not something that anyone had told -- this was a possibility out thene and so, we wene still tnying to openate in the normaL pollcy channel of hene's what we would like. Hene's what oun policy is and trying to a we wene make sure we And kept that walled off. the specific investigations wene outside of the official policy channel. Is that night? A It was it was not within my policy of Uknainian negotiations. a I fully understand that this is tangential to what you wene focusing on. But it also was tangential am fully awane of that, and we to the oniginal job that Ambassadon Volken was focusing on, y€t, was very involved in this. So the neason we'ne asking you these UNCLASS I FIED he UNCLASS questions is because you wene Volken's deputy essentially. the dynamic was, even if But when you say it's t12 ] FIED the special -- you wene Ambassadon And so, we'ne tnying to undenstand what unnelated to what youn "specific investigationsr " that's just tnying to undenstand what you mean by youn tenm, and we'ne of the official policy that convensation. A I'm sonny. What is the question? a What ane those specifics investigatlons, when you had A It are. specific investigations that you and Ambassadon Taylon wanted to keep out as you descnibed activities this as of June 18th, conversation? nefenenced in this in this anticle, the two investigations ane the would be investigations of the natune anticle. a okay. And Biden Burisma investigation and the 2016 election -- A a A Yes. a Undenstood. And these wene the same -- wene these the cornect? -- I don't nememben even specifically discussing these specific investigations. It was more -- this genenal appnoach was not pant of oun official policy. But we did not specifically investigations that you undenstood Colonel in that Vindman convensation on July 10th when he said collusion and investigations out of the to that official same be nefenencing we need to keep policy? A I would say indinectly, it was Giuliani's effonts. a And I think you testified eanlien that you dnew a distinction UNCLASS I FIED 113 UNCLASS I between anticonnuption night FIED effonts and specific investigations. Is that ? A a Connect. felt like anticornuption effonts, wnit lange, wene pant of the official U.S. policy, correct? A It was oun policy to push -- we have specific delivenables And you on anticonruption that we had developed. Individual investigations were not pant a something conrect of that policy that I And, in fact, that nan counten was awane of. advocating fon specific investigations to U.S. policy to was noot out connuption, ? A a it was contrany, yes. And you did review the JuIy 25th call necond between As I undenstood policy at the time, Pnesident Tnump and Pnesident Zelensky, connect? A f nead it in the papens. a Right. You only nead it when it was published? A Right. a Undenstood. And to youn necollection, does the Pnesident nefenence the specific investigations, on does he nefenence anticonnuption effonts A ? That is not nelated to my -- MR. MACDOUGALL: I bnoaden Wait, wait, wait. Let me object to that. lf undenstand youn question, you'ne asking the witness, based upon his review of a public document what his analysis is? Is that youn question ? UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS Lt4 FIED T MR. GOLDMAN: Yes, as an expent on Uknaine and someone who foneign policy and is in change with implementing foneign policy. MR. MACDOUGALL: Can you MR. GOLDMAN: nestate the question? SUNC. BY MR. GOLDMAN: a nefenence You nead the luly 25th calL necond. Did Pnesident the specific investigations that you undenstood Tnump Rudy Giuliani to be advocating? A I'm not sune I am being asked a to that question. It can answer seems like I speculate on something I'm not familian with. to speculate. You are asked did you nead Did -- we}1, let me ask you this way: Did the call necond You'ne not asked a document? mention the wond "Biden"? MR. MACDOUGALL: You'ne asking him which does he recall? to show you the document if you don't It's not a veny -- it's not a contnovensial topic hene. nemember it. And I don't undenstand why it is so difficult fon you to answen the MR. GOLDMAN: I'm happy question. MR. ANDERSON: Because this was not MR. MACDOUGALL: The question you ane necollection, you can show him the as document asking is if it his you'd 1ike, specific to the facts. Is that the question? MR. GOLDMAN: YeS. MR. MACDOUGALL: WeI1, mank the document. This [Majonity Exhibit No. UNCLASS I FIED 3 is exhibit 3. 115 UNCLASSIFIED was marked for identification.] UNCLASSIFIED 116 ] FIED UNCLASS [5:50 p.m.] MR. GOLDMAN: of page 3. And I'm just going to point youn attention to the top the Pnesident says: "I would like though, because our country has been thnough a a lot about would like you of your wealthy people. . . familiar with -- Wene you A Honestly, lot to find out what situation with Uknaine, they whole one it. I you to do us a favor and Uknaine knows happened say CnowdStnike. I with this guess you have The senven, they say Ukraine has ane you it. " familian with what this relates to? I was not familiar with the CnowdStnike nefenence on the senven. a that So penhaps nefenence was A that's our disconnect. to when you nead So you didn't know what this? No. to the top of page 4, Pnesident Tnump says: "The othen thing, thene's a Lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the pnosecution. A 1ot of people want to find out a about And that, then, if you go ahead so whateven you can do with the Attonney Genenal would be great. Biden went anound bnagging that he stopped the prosecution, so if you can look into it... It sounds honnible to me." Is that a nequest fon a specific investigation? A That appeans to be a specific nequest fon investigation. a And, in youn necollection as to reading this document, does the pnesident mention any of the broaden anticonnuption effonts that wene pant of the U.S. official policy? UNCLASS I FIED 1.17 UNCLASS A a conruption I FIED in my neading of this document. And one last thing. You mentioned the high count fon Not ? A Uh-huh. Not that actual name. a Yeah. What is the name, do you necall? A It was -- we nefenned to it generally as the Antitnust Count, but I don't actually -- again, that was not my specific anea of nesponsibility. So I nememben Pnesident Ponoshenko had stalled on implementing it, said he neven would, then got pushed, and he finally agneed to do it, but he hadn't actually appointed the judges, if I nememben conrectly. And then Zelensky moved it fonwand and stanted implementing it. a And how soon aften he was elected did Pnesident Zelensky do that? A I don't nememben. It may have even happened aften I left. a But you know that at this point, he has alneady implemented this count? A I fonwand on nememben seeing a news antlcle on repont that he had moved that. a And this is a significant anticonnuption effont that was pant -- that the U.S. was promoting in Uknaine? A YeS. a And Zelensky made it happen in a way that Ponoshenko had not? A Connect. a And ane you awane of any othen nefonms that Pnesident UNCLASS I F]ED 118 UNCLASS I FIED Zelensky has alneady implemented nelated to anticonnuption? A Not specifically. a Ane you awane of whethen he nemoved pa nliamenta nian A s Yes. so they can now be pnosecuted on connuption changes? a A He has done a So that's that, connect. anothen anticonruption neform Zelensky has implemented. A immunity fnom that Pnesident Is that night? Yes. MR. GOLDMAN: A11 night, thank you. We ane done. We yield to the minority. MR. CASTOR: Thank MR. GOLDMAN: You. We ane done. Mr. Andenson, thank you veny much fon coming in. And we'ne adjounned. MR. ANDERSON: Thank [Wheneupon, you. Go Nats. at 5:53 p.m., the deposition UNCLASS I F]ED was concluded.]