UNCLASS 1 IFIED 1 2 3 4 5 PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE, 6 joint with 7 COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM 8 and the 9 COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS, the 10 U.S. 11 WASHTNGToN, D.C. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, L2 13 t4 15 DEPOSITION OF: TIM MORRISON 16 T7 18 r.9 Thunsday, Octoben 20 31, 2Ot9 Washington, D.C. 2L 22 23 24 25 The deposition in the Capitol Visiton Center, above matten was held commencing UNCLASS at 8:10 a.m. I FIED in Room HVC-3O4, UNCLASS L 2 I FIED Pnesent: Repnesentatives Schiff, Himes, Sewe11, Speien, 2 Quigley, Swalwe11, Castno, Heck, WeIch, Maloney, 3 Knishnamoonthi, Nunes, Conaway, Tunnen, Wenstnup, Stefanik, Hund, and 4 Ratcliffe. 5 Demings, Also Pnesent: Repnesentatives Bena, Cicilline, Connol1y, 6 Coopen, Keating, Lieu, Lynch, Malinowski, Phi1lips, Raskin, Rouda, 7 Tlaib, Schultz, Anmstnong, C1oud, Higgins, Jondan, Ke11y, 8 Massie, Meadows, Nonman, Penny, and Wassenman UNCLASS Roy. I FIED 3 UNCLASS I F]ED 1 2 Appeanances: 3 4 5 Fon the PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE: 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 L4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 27 22 23 24 UNCLASS ] F]ED UNCLASS 1 IFIED Fon the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM: FOn thc COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS: 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 74 15 16 L7 18 19 Fon TIM MORRISON: 20 2L BARBARA VAN GELDER 22 HANNAH CORNETT 23 UNCLASS I FIED 4 5 UNCLASS I FIED 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Good 2 monning, Mn. Monnison. We'ne on the necord 3 now. 4 on Intelligence, which, along with the Foneign Affains and Oversight 5 6 7 8 9 Good monning, and welcome to the House Penmanent Select Committee this investigation as pant of the official impeachment inquiny of the House of Repnesentatives. Today's deposition is being conducted as pant of the impeachment inquiny. In light of attempts by the administnation to dinect witnesses not to coopenate with the inquiny, including effonts to limit Committees, is conducting 10 witness testimony, the committee had no choice but to compel L1 appeanance L2 congnessional subpoena. today. We thank you for complying with the duly authonized Mn. Monnison has senved 13 fon almost two decades in in both the executive t4 having held positions 15 Mr. Monnison senved as a pnofessional staff 16 Mank Kennedy 17 Monnison senved as 18 on the House Anmed Senvices Committee. In July 19 of Minnesota and bnanches. fon Repnesentative of Anizona. Laten, Mn. the longtime policy dinecton fon the 201-8, Mn. Monnison government, legislative memben and Senaton Jon KyI Republicans joined the National Secunity Council 20 staff 2t Following the depantune of Dn. Fiona Hill 22 assumed 23 youn as Senion Dinecton fon Countening Weapons of Mass Destnuction. in JuLy 2OL9, Mp. Monnison the position of Senion Dinecton fon Russia and Eunope. In this position, Mn. Monnison would have had access to and been 24 involved in key policy discussions, meetings, and decisions on Russia 25 and Uknaine that nelate dinectly to UNCLASS I aneas under FIED investigation by the 6 UNCLASS I 1 FIED committees. Fina1ly, to nestate what I and others have emphasized in othen 2 will not tolenate any neprisal, threat of 3 interviews, 4 nepnisal, on attempt to retaliate against any U.S. Govennment 5 fon testifying befone Congness, including you on any of 5 colleagues. Congness youn to pnohibit fnom coopenating with the inquiny and have tnied to limit It is distunbing that the 7 official 8 employees 9 what they can t^Jhite House has sought 10 say. This is unacceptable. Thankfully, consummate pnofessionals have demonstnated nemankable courage in coming forward 11 to testify We L2 and tell the tnuth. undenstand that you have nesigned fnom the NSC, Mn. Monnison, this is not a nesult of netaliation on repnisal hene today. If it is, we would ask youn attonney 13 and we sincenely hope t4 due 15 to infonm us L7 of any relevant information as Soon as possible. Befone I tunn to committee counsel to begin the intenview, I invite the nanking memben of the Intelligence Committee, Mr. Nunes, 18 to make any opening remanks. 16 to youn testimony 19 MR. NUNES: Welcome, Mn. Mornison. 20 Just be advised, because this is being done behind closed doors, 27 the tnanscnipts anen't being neleased, thene's been a histony of the 22 majonity cutting 23 leading the witness. And so I just want to advise you of that in 24 advance. 25 we hope off oun questioners. Thene's also been a histony of that you will be fonthnight with us and answen the UNCLASS 1 FIED 7 UNCLASS I EIED 1 2 questions and not take coaching fnom the 3 4 thnoughout the youn counsel should be advised 8 9 my last colleague, but recognize Mn. MR. GOLDMAN: Thank Mn. Mornison, 20 zt zz 23 24 zs you, Mn. Chainman. Permanent Select Committee on 11 Lz 18 19 Goldman. This is a deposition of Timothy Monnison conducted by the inquiny announced by the 16 t7 that this has been a common theme month 10 13 t4 15 And youn lawyen, of these depositions. And, with that, welcome. It's great to have you. THE CHAIRMAN: In the intenest of time, I will not bothen to nebut s 6 7 majority. youn last name if Intelligence punsuant to the Speaken impeachment of the House on Septemben 24th, you could please state youn House 2OL9. fu1l name and speII fon the recond. MR. MORRISON: Timothy Aron Monrison, M-o-n-n-i-s-o-n. if you could just pu1l the mike close to then you can nelax and just talk into it. Thank you. MR. GoLDMAN: And Now, along you, with othen pnoceedings in funthenance of the inquiny to date, this deposition is pant of a joint investigation led by the Intelligence Committee, in coondination with the Committees on Foneign Affains and Ovensight and Reform. In the noom today are majonity staff and minonity staff thnee committees, and this of will be a counse may ask questions duning fnom all staff-Ied deposition. Membens thein allotted time, as has been the case in eveny deposition since the inception of this investigation. My name is Daniel Goldman. I'm the dinecton of investigations for the Intelligence Committee's majonity staff. UNCLASS I EIED And I want to thank 8 UNCLASS I 1. you again fon coming Let 2 me in FIED today. do some bnief intnoductions. To my night hene is Daniel 3 Noble, senion investigative counsel fon the Intelligence Committee's 4 majority staff. Mn. Noble and I will be conducting most of the 5 intenview fon the majonity. And now 6 7 intnoduce themselves. MR. CASTOR: Steve Caston 8 9 I'd like to ask my countenparts on the minonity to Republican with the Ovensight Committee staff. 10 t7 12 13 I 15 will be conducted entinely at the unclassified leve1. Howeven, it is being conducted in HPSCI secure 16 spaces and 17 cleanances. t4 18 MR. GOLDMAN: This deposition in the pnesence of staff with appropniate security We understand that youn attorneys also 19 cleanances. Is that night? 20 MS. VAN GELDER: 2T MR. GOLDMAN: have thein secunity NO. Okay. They do not. 23 It is the committee's expectation, regandless of that, that neithen questions asked of you non answens pnovided by you will requine 24 discussion of any information that 25 be pnopenly classified unden Executive Onden 13526. 22 UNCLASS is cunnently or at any point could ] FIED 9 UNCLASS You are neminded L that I FIED E0 13526 states that, quote, "in no case 3 shall infonmation be classified, continue to be maintained as classified, on fail to be declassified fon the punpose of concealing 4 any violations 5 entity. 2 If 6 of law on pneventing embannassment of any penson " any of our questions can only be answened with classified 7 infonmation, please infonm us of that fact before you answen the 8 question, and we can adjust accondingly. Today's deposition 9 of the sensitive 10 because 11 and matenials L2 deposition Unden 13 L4 staff 15 today. that will will is not being taken in executive and confidential natune of be dlscussed, access be limited some memben to the thnee committees in of the topics attendance. Congness non any can discuss the substance of the testimony will session, but to the tnanscnipt of the the House deposition nuIes, no Memben of You and youn attonney 16 on have an oppontunity that to you provide review the 19 it is neleased. Befone we begin, I'd like to go oven some of the gnound nules fon the deposition. We will be following the House negulations fon 20 depositions, which have pneviously been pnovided to youn counsel. t7 18 tnanscnipt befone The deposition 21. t will pnoceed as follows. will be will be given t houn The majonity 23 to ask questions; then the minonity to ask questions. Theneaften, we will altennate back and fonth between 24 majonity and minonity 25 complete. 22 given houn in 45-minute nounds UNCLASS I FIED until questioning is UNCLASS L 2 will take peniodic bneaks, but if please let us know. We Unden 3 the House 10 IF]ED you need a bneak attend. are penmitted to have government agencies may not 5 attonney pnesent duning this deposition, and 6 two. 8 9 At this time, if any time, deposition nules, counsel fon othen pensons 4 7 at You I see that on an you have bnought counsel could please state thein appeanances fon the necond. MS. VAN GELDER: BANbANA VAN GEldEN. 10 MS. CORNETT: Hannah Connett. 11 MR. GgLDMAN: Thene is a stenognaphen taking down evenything that 13 is said hene today in onden to make a wnitten necord of the deposition. Fon that necond to be cIean, please wait until each question is 74 completed befone you begin your answen, and we 15 finish 72 16 you youn nesponse befone asking the next question. The stenognaphen cannot necond nonvenbal answens such as shaking it is 77 your head, so 18 audible, venbal 19 will wait until We ask important that you answen each question with an answer. that replies to questions you give complete based on your 27 If a question is unclean on you ane uncentain in youn response, please let us know. And if you do not know the answen 22 to a question or 20 23 best necollection. You may cannot nememben, simply say so. only nefuse to answer a question to pneserve a pnivilege the committee. 24 necognized by 25 the basis of pnivilege, staff If may you nefuse to answen a question on eithen proceed with the deposition UNCLASS I FIED 1l ] F]ED UNCLASS objection. If the chair 1 on seek a nuling fnom the chairman on the 2 ovennules any such objection, you ane requined it is Fina1ly, you ane neminded that 3 false infonmation to of to answen unlawful 4 pnovide 5 impenative that you not only answen oun questions 6 you give 7 Omissions may also be considened as Now, as 8 9 and complete answers this deposition is Do you swean that Congress to all unden to delibenately or staff. It is truthfully but that questions asked false of statements. to be you swonn? youn testimony pnovided hene today will be the whole tnuth and nothing but the tnuth? I L2 MR. MORRISON: 13 MR. GOLDMAN: Thank L4 Let the necond neflect that the witness has been swonn. 15 Mn. Monnison, 16 MR. MORRISON: Thank you. t7 Chainman do. ifyou you. You can be seated. have an opening statement, now is the time. Schiff and membens of the committees, I 18 under subpoena to answen youn questions about 19 fon 20 Council. I will give you the 2T consistent with 22 classified infonmation. Eunopean 23 I 24 speculate as 25 you. oath, Mn. Monnison, would please stand and naise youn night hand 10 11 full Membens the question. Affains at the White my House Befone time as Senion Directon in the National most complete infonmation Secunity I can, obligations to the Pnesident and the pnotection of do not know who the whistleblowen to my appean today who it is, non do I intend to may be. joining the NSC in 2OL8, I UNCLASS spent 17 years as a Republican I FIED UNCLASS I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 e 9 10 tt L2 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 zL 22 23 24 zS t2 FIED staffer senving in a vaniety of noles in both houses of Congness. My last position was policy directon for the then-majonity staff of the House Anmed Services Committee. Fnom luly 9, 2078' to July 15, 2OL9, I senved as a Special Assistant to the Pnesident fon National Secunity and as the NSC Senior Directon fon Weapons of Mass Destnuction and Biodefense. In that roIe, I had limited exposune military sales to Uknaine, focusing pnimanily on foneign and anms contnol. I became Deputy Assistant to the Pnesident for Secunity. In this nole, I serve as the lead intenagency July tS, 2O\9, On National coondinaton fon nationat security issues involving Europe and Russia. It is impontant to stant with the nole of the NSC. Since its cneation by Congness in to suit the needs and size Advison 1947 it senves , the NSC has appropniately evolved in shape of the Pnesident and the National Secunity at the time. But its mission and core function has fundamentally nemained the same: to coondinate acnoss departments and agencies of the executive branch to ensure the Pnesident has the policy options he needs to accomplish his objectives and to see that his decisions ane imPlemented. The NSC staff does not make when we ane policy. NSC staff ane most effective neutral anbitens helping the nelevant executive bnanch agencies develop options fon the Pnesident and implement his dinection. In my cunnent objective in Ukraine position, I understood oun primary U.S. policy was to take advantage of the once-in-a-generation oppontunity that nesulted fnom the election of President Zelensky UNCLASS I EIED and 13 UNCLASS ] E]ED L the clean majonity he had gained in the Uknainian Rada to see neal 2 anticonnuption nefonm take noot. The 3 administration's policy was that the best way fon the United 4 States to show its suppont fon Pnesident Zelensky's nefonm efforts 5 to make sure the United States' longstanding bipartisan 6 stnengthen Uknaine's secunity nemained unaltened. was commitment to 10 It is easy to fonget here in Washington, but impossible in Kyiv, that Ukraine is still unden anmed assault by Russia, a nuclean-anmed state. We also tend to fonget that the United States had helped convince Uknaine to give up Soviet nuclear weapons in 1994. 11 United States secunity-secton assistance fnom the Depantments of 7 8 9 is, thenefone, essential to Uknaine. Also essential L2 Defense and State 13 is a stnong and positive nelationship with Ukraine at the highest levels L4 of oun respective In 15 my governments. nole as Senion Dinecton fon Eunopean Affains, 16 dinectly to L7 Kuppenman and fonmen 18 I L9 awaneness on when 20 Duning I reponted fonmen Deputy National Secunity Advison Dn. Chanles National Secunity Advison Ambassadon John Bo1ton. kept them fully infonmed on mattens that I felt I I believe menited thein needed some dinection. the time nelevant to this inquiny, I neven bniefed the to Ukrainian secunity. 2L Pnesident on Vice Pnesident on mattens nelated 22 It 23 Ukraine, William Taylon, Special Repnesentative fon Uknaine 24 Negotiations Kunt Vo1ken, and othen intenagency stakeholdens in the 25 Depantments was my job to coondlnate with the U.S. Embassy Chief of Mission to of Defense and State on othen Ukrainian mattens. UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS My pnimany 7 responsibility 74 I FIED has been to ensune Fedenal agencies had 2 consistent messaging and policy guidance on national secunity issues 3 involving Eunopean and Russian As Dn. Fiona 4 Hill 5 the aneas 5 me 7 the 8 depantment and agency 9 involved chiefly the U.S. of we discussed was pnepaned fon nonmal intenagency pnocess me led by the that Ambassadon that were occunring: with the typical NSC Ambassadon Sondland and to 13 not know what t4 the meeting with Dn. 15 a Uknainian energy 19 infonmed to the Eunopean Union. 72 18 succeed hen, one of panticipation, and a sepanate pnocess that pensonal lawyen, Rudy Giu1iani, wene tnying L7 to Uknaine. In that discussion, she LT 16 me hen concenns about two Uknaine pnocesses Dr. Hill told 10 I and affairs. reopen Uknainian investigations Bunisma was on what HiIl, I President Trump's to get Pnesident Zelensky into Bunisma. At the time, I did the investigation entailed. Aften googled "Bunisma" and leanned company and that Hunten Biden was on that it its was boand. I also did not undenstand why Ambassador Sondland would be involved in Uknaine policy, often without the involvement of oun duly appointed Chief of Mission, Ambassador Bill Taylon. My most fnequent convensations wene with Ambassadon Taylor of Mission in Uknaine, and I his chief 20 because he was the U.S. Chief 27 conduit fon infonmation nelated to White House delibenations, 22 including secunity-sector assistance and potential head-of-state 23 meetings. This is a 24 25 nonmal In pnepanation fon my Ambassadon Taylon pnovided part of the coondination appearance today, this inquiry UNCLASS I was pnocess. neviewed the statement on October 22nd' I EIED 2019. I can 15 UNCLASS that the substance of his statement as it nelates to 1 confinm 2 convensations 3 on two that he and of the details, I had is accunate. My necollections differ howeven. I have a slightly diffenent 4 I F]ED necollection of my Septemben L,2OL9' 5 convensation with Ambassadon Sondland. 0n page t@ of Ambassadon 6 Taylon's statement, he recounts a convensation 7 neganding Ambassadon Sondland's convensation 8 Pnesidential Advison 9 I nelayed to him with Uknainian Yenmak. Ambassadon Taylon wnote, and I that secunity assistance quote, "Ambassadon Sondland money would not told until 10 Mn. Yenmak LT Pnesident Zelensky committed to punsue the Bunisma investigation, " end L2 quote. 13 My necollection is that Ambassadon come Sondland's pnoposal to that it could be sufficient if the new Ukrainian L4 Mn. Yenmak was 15 Pnosecuton General, not Pnesident Zelensky, would commit 16 Bunisma t7 I to punsue the investigation. would also like to clarify that I did not meet with the Uknainian in his hotel noom, as Ambassadon Taylor 18 National Secunity Advison 19 indicated on page 11 of his statement. Instead, an NSC aide and I 20 with Mn. Danylyuk in the hotel's business centen. met 23 I also neviewed the memonandum of convensation of the July 25 phone call that was neleased by the White House. I listened to the call as it occunned from the Situation Room. To the best of my 24 necollection, the 25 substance 2t 22 MEMCON accunately and completely reflects the of the caII. UNCLASS I EIED UNCLASS L 2 3 16 IP]ED I also necall that I did not see anyone fnom the NSC Legal Advison's Office in the noom duning the caII. Aften the ca}1, I pnomptly asked the NSC Legal Advison and his deputy to neview it. I 4 it had thnee concenns about a would play out in potential leak of the MEMCON: finst, tnlashington's polanized envinonmentl second, 5 how 5 how a 7 curnently expenience in Congness; and, thind, 8 Ukrainian penceptlons of the U.S.-Uknaine nelationship. I 9 10 leak would affect the bipartisan suppont oun Uknainian pantnens want to be clean: I was not how concenned it would affect the that anything iI1ega1 was discussed. I 1.1. was awane that the White House was holding up secunity-sector -- me. I not aware that the L2 assistance passed by Congness 13 White House was holding up the security-secton assistance passed by L4 Congness 15 I until my succeeded Dn. I 16 excuse was supenior, Dn. Chanles Kuppenman, told that the Pnesident thought Uknaine had a connuption L7 problem, as did many othens familian with Uknaine. 18 that the Pnesident believed that 19 assistance I 20 aften Hil1. was awane to me soon Eunope I was also did not contnibute aware enough Uknaine. was dinected by Dr. 2t interagency stakeholdens 22 demonstnate 23 to Kuppenman to coordinate with the to put togethen a policy process to that the intenagency supponted secunity- secton assistance Uknaine. 24 I 25 Secnetanies was confident that oun national secunity pnincipals -- the of State and Defense, the Dinecton of the Centnal UNCLASS T FIED UNCLASS I L7 FIED 2 of the National Secunity Council -- could convince Pnesident Tnump to nelease the aid, 3 Pnesident Zelensky and the nefonm-oniented Rada wene genuinely 4 invested 1 Intelligence Agency, and the in thein anticonnuption Ambassadon Taylon and 5 head agenda. I wene concenned that the longen the money more questions withheld, the the Zelensky administnation would ask 6 was 7 about the U.S. commitment 8 money would be neleased 9 not want the newly constituted Uknainian 10 11 L2 13 to Uknaine. Oun initial hope was that the before the hold became public, because we did Govennment to question U.S. suppont. I have no neason to believe the Uknainians the neview until August 28, Ambassadon Taylon and I had no neason to believe that the release of the secunity-secton 15 statement reopening the Bunisma investigation 16 20L9, convensation with Ambassadon Sondland. Even then, I had any knowledge of 201-9, t4 L7 because assistance might be conditioned on a public hoped that Ambassadon until my Septemben 1, Sondland's stnategy was 18 exclusively his own and would not be considened by leadens in the 19 administnation and Congness who undenstood the stnategic impontance 20 of Ukraine to oun national secunity. 2t f 22 needed to 23 negret is that Uknaine 24 impeachment 25 process. am pleased oun pnocess gave appnove the Pnesident the confidence he the nelease of the secunity-secton assistance. even leanned inquiny, Uknaine has of the neview and that, with this become subsumed UNCLASS My I FI ED in the U.S. political 18 UNCLASS I EIED After 7 I of 19 yeans govennment senvice, have decided have not submitted a fonmal resignation 2 NSC. 3 I 4 today and my impending depanture. 5 from the do not want anyone NSC aften to leave the at this time because to think thene is a connection between my testimony my Duning my time 6 I I plan to finalize my tnansition testimony is complete. in public senvice, I have wonked with some self-sacnificing people in this countny. of the Senving 7 smantest and most 8 at the White House in this time of unpnecedented global change has been 9 the oppontunity of a 10 in some lifetime. I small way to help the am pnoud Tnump of what I have been able administration to accomplish. fon your attention. LT Thank you 72 THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Goldman, you ane necognized 13 MR. GOLDMAN: Thank you, Mn. for t hour. Chainman. BY MR. GOLDMAN: L4 I just L7 to stant whene you ended, about your resignation. You said that it had nothing to do with youn testimony today. What is the neason that you ane nesigning anound this 18 time 15 16 19 20 21 22 23 a Mn. Monnison, want ? A I have decided that it's time fon a change in my careen. a And so it had nothing to do with this Uknaine issue and the impeachment inquiry? A a No. Did you have any discussions with anyone -- othen than any 24 fonmal lettens on convensations between any attorneys and youn 25 attonney, did you personally have any discussions with anyone at the UNCLASS I FIED 19 UNCLASS 1 White House about youn testimony hene today? A I 2 be 4 would be. 6 7 8 9 discussed with pensonnel at the White House that I would testifying. I did not talk about the substance of what my testimony 3 5 I EIED a Did anyone A No. discourage you from testifying? a Who did you speak to? A I talked to the Deputy National Secunity Advison, Matthew pensonnel fnom NSC Pness. And I talked Pottingen. I talked to vanious 10 to the NSC Legal Advisor 11 deputy and his deputy. that I would be testifying And I believe I informed my hene today. L4 a Did anyone ask you what you wene going to say hene today? A No. a Did anyone encounage you to testify in a centain way? 15 A No. 16 a So t2 13 L7 is youn testimony hene today A Yes, and based 19 a 2L 22 23 24 25 own necollection and volition? 18 20 entinely of youn on the consultations with my lawyen. Did you review any notes befone you came to testify hene today? A Yes. a What did you neview? A I reviewed, among othen things, the notes I took on Ju1y 25th duning the head-of-state phone call between Pnesident Trump and Pnesident Zelensky. I neviewed vanious entnies in my official UNCLASS ] FIED UNCLASS 20 I FIED 1 calendar with nespect to dates that meetings occurned, dates that phone 2 calls occunred. I 3 remembering 4 a 5 Now, 6 sent to make sune the timelines on which things I was connectly occunned. Iet's focus on when you took oven as the Senion Dinecton for Russia. What date was that? A July 15, 2OL9. a And, pnion to that, you indicated that you had some 8 10 I Okay. Eunope and 7 9 neviewed emails involvement in Uknaine nelated to some of the anms sales that was the focus of youn pnion position? 13 A Foreign militany sales and anms control. a Okay. Wene you following -- pnion to when you assumed this -- wel1, when did you know that you wene going to take oven this t4 nole 1L L2 ? 21, A I began negotiating with Ambassadon Bolton and Dn. Kuppenman pnobably mid-May of 2@19 about whethen and if I would take on the no1e. a How much of youn time in this position related to Uknaine? A Which position? a Your cunnent position. A A significant quantity. a And when you had those initial convensations with Ambassadon 22 Bolton and Dn. Kupperman in May, did you specifically discuss Uknaine 23 at all? 15 15 \7 18 19 20 24 25 A a No. Were you awane of the, sont of, swinling UNCLASS I FlED pness neponts 27 UNCLASS 1 I EIED to Uknaine in May? A In passing. nelated 2 5 a And can you explain what you knew at that time? A I necall seeing vanious pness neponting about these -- about Uknaine issues, but I had a mone-than-full-time job that kept me pnetty 6 occupied. 3 4 7 8 9 a And what do you rememben? What issues do you nememben? A I have no specific necollection of a panticular Uknaine issue. I just neca}l seeing press neponting about who this Pnesident 10 Zelensky 11 issues. a Uh-huh. Wene you following any public L2 13 t4 15 was. He's a comedian. He had a TV show. Those kinds of Rudy Giuliani related to A a Not that I Uknaine at this And between mid-May when you accepted stanted, what did you do, if when you L7 issues befone you took oven the job? 19 20 27 A I had one on That was befone July 15th? That was befone JuIy 1, the fact of the tnansition 23 talking about how to 25 a anything, to study up on Ukraine HilI. 22 24 the job and July 15th two, sont of, tnansition convensations, handoff convensations with Dn. a A time? can recaI1. 16 18 statements made by 15th. Pnobably beginning around July became known make sune to Dn. Hi11, there was an ondenly handoff. But aften you knew you were going to take you pay closen attention and we began this position, to the media neponts nelated to UNCLASS I FIED did Uknaine? 22 UNCLASS L 2 3 A In fainness, no. I still occupying a Okay. So when you of full-time job that 5 and othens were pnomoting As any started talking to Dr. Hill of the altennative nannatives that wene you awane A had a was me. 4 6 ] FIED on July 1st, Mn. Giuliani in the media? I said in my statement, DF. HiI1, when we began these 7 handoff convensations, Uknaine was a topic of those convensations, and 8 she infonmed me of hen concenns about this altennate pnocess. 10 I just want to undenstand what youn knowledge was befone you met with Dn. HiII. Wene you awane of any of these altennative LL narnatives befone that? 9 12 13 a So A I have no specific recollection about any altennative nannative. 15 that in your meeting with Dn. Hi1l, in youn opening statement, that you discussed, I think you said two -- I 16 don't want to misstate what you said, but two pnocesses nelated to L7 Uknaine. Is that night? L4 18 L9 20 2L a Okay. A a Yes. So can you descnibe what you undenstood from Dn. the two separate A So you descnibed As I Hill to be pnocesses? said in my statement, thene was the nonmal pnocess, where 22 decisionmaking went thnough the duly appointed pensonnel, whethen 23 that's the Chief of Mission, 24 appnopniate pensonnel fnom the Depantments 25 Energy and Ambassador Taylor, Envoy Volken, the of State and Defense and intetligence agencies and so forth, as we nonmally UNCLASS I FIED do 23 UNCLASS I E]ED 1 business unden the NSPM-4 pnocess. And thene was 2 chiefly led 3 come up. by Ambassadon Sondland, where Rudy Giuliani's name would policy positions of both pnocesses, 6 thene was any diffenence between the, sont 7 policy as you of, two tracks Not as such. It was that I was job, 11 Giuliani L2 issues such as the Bunisma investigation, and I noted 13 was L6 of familian with fnom my own 10 and hene was this other tnack where Ambassadon involved. wene Fiona mentioned Sondland and Mn. that they wene intenested in that. And that essentially the substance of the convensation. a his tenms chiefly focused on, hene's the nonmal pnocess where decisions get made L4 in ? A 8 about the call them, including whethen 5 15 second tnack, a In that convensation, did you have any discussion 4 9 this What did she say specifically about Ambassador Sondland and nole? A She described Ambassadon Sondland as a pnoblem. We both 20 in the EU, which led to the follow-on question of, why is he involved in Ukraine? And, as I mentioned, she mentioned Bunisma, which I neaIly did not know what that was. a So just focusing on Ambassadon Sondland fon a minute, did 2t she explain 22 involved L7 18 19 discussed that Uknaine was not 23 A 24 mandate 25 a to you hen undenstanding as to why Ambassadon Sondland was in Ukraine policy? She stated that Ambassadon to get involved Was it based on based on Sondland believed he had the his nelationship with the Pnesident. his nelationship on based on a dinective UNCLASS I F]ED fnom 24 I EIED UNCLASS 1 the Pnesident, as you undenstood it? A 2 3 I necall hen nelating it to me, based on hen penspective, was his nelationship. a 4 5 The way Othen than the fact that Uknaine is not in the EU, did she indicate to you any othen concenns about Ambassador Sondland's nole? A It 6 was less about his nole in Ukraine and mone about himself. did not panticipate in the pnocess. 7 conducted 8 very pnocess-oniented on the NSC; we have a way 9 And so when people come in and 10 of that process, it a A 77 L2 And what He that she stayed 74 be wise to things that works. get involved in issues and they'ne not did she say to you about Rudy Giuliani? that Gondon talked with Rudy, and she mentioned away fnom any convensation do the So we ane cneates risk. She mentioned 13 we do how he with Rudy and that I would same. 18 in a minute, but did she mention anything else, othen than Bunisma, in connection to what Rudy Giuliani's interest in Uknaine was? A She mentioned Rudy - - and I should say cleanly fon the recond 19 that, in some cases, I considen Bunisma to sont of 20 Bunisma 21. and 22 chiefly 15 16 L7 23 a I And is we'1l get to Bunisma Bunisma the company, Bunisma be a bucket of issues. is Hunten Biden on the boand, sometimes lump togethen Burisma and the 2016 serven in my head, I tnied to stay away from. a Why did you tny to stay away -- do you necall that she also because they ane all issues in that convensation or 24 mentioned 25 election, separate from -- subsequent convensation UNCLASS I FIED the 2016 25 UNCLASS t A She mentioned 2 a Bunisma? I FIED the fact 8 A -- of some -- excuse me. a Go ahead. A She mentioned the fact of some speculation about a senven. a And did she mention anything about some allegations that Uknaine may have been involved in intenfening in the 2016 election? A She mentioned that thene was some concenn in some quantens 9 that thene was a server that 3 4 5 6 7 10 but 11 L2 to do with the it was all fairly unknown to me. a And why did you want to stay away fnom this 2@L6 election, bucket that you descnibe as Bunisma? A I 13 L4 had something deemed it to fo1low Dn. HilI's counsel to appropniate do so. a A a A 15 16 L7 18 And what was the neason that she gave you Because it Can you explain We wene chiefly involved in issues nelated to -- in had nothing to do with chiefly involved in issues related to Uknaine pnocess, we were 20 the 2L agenda, wonking 22 othen projects that ane beyond the scope new Uknainian Government, wonking a House 25 Amenican them on Did you come with 24 with Ambassadon officials, oun policy process. how on why? 19 23 to do so? managing with them to cement thein nefonm secunity, wonking with them on a Ambassadon Sond1and, as well as Uknainian officials? UNCLASSIFIED dozen of today's proceeding. to leann about a July 10th meeting at the Bolton, the White Volken, othen 26 UNCLASS A a A 1 2 3 Dn. Hill didn't tell that meeting at all? didn't attend it? 5 6 a So, by the time she No. left, of this meeting to the July 25th call, did you have any sense as to whethen you wene not aware that had occunned? A a 8 9 No. Okay. Pnion 10 11 you about No. And you 7 FIED No. a A 4 1 Ambassadon Sondland was speaking with any Uknainians directly? A Yes. I think that was pant of the handoff convensations that t2 Hill I had and pant of why she expnessed concenn about him acting 13 Dn. 14 outside of the nonmal process. and 16 a Okay. When you had these tnansition meetings with Dn. Hill -- and, by the way, how many wene thene, do you know, nelated 77 to 15 18 19 Uknaine? A I think 24 25 Did Dn. 2L 22 23 - - thene wene pnobably three meetings, about an houn each. Ukraine came up in two a A a A a 20 Uknaine pnobably And do you When necall ofthe meetings. when? the meetings occurred? Right. Between July 1 and JulY L5. Okay. Hilt discuss with you the possibility UNCLASS IEIED of a White House 27 I FIED UNCLASS 1 meeting between Pnesident Zelensky and Pnesident A 2 Yes. A What did she say to A It was on a list of 3 4 Tnump? You about that? meetings that we were tnacking, 5 head-of-state meetings, othen impontant meetings that would involve 6 the Pnesident. 7 pending. called them schedule pnoposals. So, here's what's In youn convensation with Dn. HiIl about a potential 8 a 9 House meeting 10 tnle White all Ambassadon role on Rudy Giuliani's nofe in setting up that meeting? Sondland's fon Pnesident Zelensky, did she discuss at 11 A No. L2 a Did she indicate to you at all whether thene wene some 13 L4 15 of numblings about punsuing the bucket to get a White A No. a 16 So Bunisma investigations in onden House meeting? aften July 15th and pnion to JuIy 25th, let's focus on minute. L7 that 18 the possibility of a 19 President timefname fon a phone When call did you become awane that thene was between Pnesident Zelensky and Tnump? 22 A Fainty eanly. I 'd have to necall exactly when the Uknainian Rada election occunned, but we wene watching it closely. We expected Pnesident Zelensky's panty, the Senvant of the People, to do weII. We 23 did not expect it to do as well as it did. It obtained a clean mandate, 24 a clean majonity. And we wanted Uknaine -- we wanted thene to be a 25 phone 20 21 call similan to the phone call the Pnesident placed to UNCLASS ] FIED UNCLASS 28 I FIED 1 congnatulate Pnesident Zelensky fon his own election, we wanted thene 2 to 3 victony. be a phone a 4 5 A a A a A 7 8 9 10 to 13 I 16 24 25 So how do you know that it was congnatulatory? that was the punpose of the call that was descnibed Because never read the t,lJhen of that package. just descnibe to you genenally MEMCON a A a My phone call A a A call by what happened? occunned, it was a on his election. you said we wanted who do you mean 2t 23 No. me. a 20 22 Did you get a neadout on any information about that call? congnatulatony phone 18 19 No. a Did someone A It was descnibed to me that the call 15 77 took oven this role, did you go back and neview the a So someone did descnibe it to you? A I was awane that thene was a caII. I neven got a debniefing. L2 1.4 hlhen you Pnesident Zelensky fon his decisive tnanscript of the Apnil 21st call? 6 t1 call to congratulate to set up a congnatulatony phone caII, "we"? office, my dinectorate. Did you even speak to Ambassadon Bolton specifically about between Zelensky and Tnump? Yes. What did Ambassadon Bolton say to you about that possibility? That he was wonking on it. UNCLASS I FIED 29 UNCLASS 1 2 a thene some discussion as to whethen it would be befone Was the election or aften the election, as fan as you know? 3 A No. 4 a By 5 I FIED the time you got thene, it was always going to be aften the panliamentany election? 6 A YeS. 7 a To youn knowledge, was thene any 8 9 difficulty in setting this call? A No. it set up, as fan as you know, thnough Was 11 a A t2 a Do you know whethen Mn. 13 anyone about t4 A No. 15 a Do you know whether Ambassadon Sondland had any 10 nonmal channels? Yes. Giuliani had any discussions with setting up a call? discussions 16 with anyone in the Chief of Staff's office on the Pnesident t7 setting up this call? A Yes. hJhat do you know about that? 20 a A 2t MS. VAN GELDER: 18 19 22 23 24 25 up Which? Pnesident he can I don't think that his convensations with the talk to. MR. GOLDMAN: About Ambassadon Sondland's Pnesident about conversations with the ? MS. VAN GELDER: I'm going to say if he knows about it, if he was UNCLASS ] FIED 30 UNCLASS I E]ED 1 thene, he can't talk about 2 he can I'11 bneak it out. a 7 spoke 8 call? 13 by Ambassador Sond1and, Do you know whethen Ambassadon Sondland with Mick Mulvaney on anyone in Mick Mulvaney's office about A MS. VAN GELDER: Which call? BY MR. GOLDMAN: A potential call with Pnesident Zelensky, what ultimately a became 7/25. L4 A No. 15 a Do you know whethen Ambassadon Sondland spoke 15 Trump about A I 18 Pnesident about know that Ambassadon Sondland Pnesident told me he spoke to the it. did he teII you that? And when 20 a A 21 a And so can you describe 22 to it? 17 19 a No. 11 L2 told BY MR. GOLDMAN: 6 10 he was anothen way. 5 9 If talk about it. If you could nepeat the question, maybe we can get thnough it 3 4 it. The morning Ambassadon Sondland of JuIy 25th. the monning the convensation that you had with of July 25th? 24 A Ambassadon Sondland emailed me and sevenal othen t^Jhite House staff to inform us that he had spoken to the Pnesident that monning 25 to bnief him on the caII. 23 UNCLASS IFIED 31 UNCLASS I a L 2 bniefing 3 A 4 email 5 was 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 And The convensation was spoke a bniefing did he explain to you what he told the Pnesident in that ? listing "I FIED entinely oven emai1. thnee topics that he was wonking on, the to the President this And so he didn't give monning He sent me an finst of which to bnief him on the calL." any more descniption as to what his was? A The convensation was exclusively oven email. a I undenstand, but in the email he didn't explain any more A That was the extent of what he said about the Uknaine call. a OkaY. And do you know if Pnesident Tnump was pnepped thnough the nonmal NSC pnocess? 18 A I know we provided him the regulan call package. a Did Ambassadon Bolton even express any reservations to you about a call between Pnesident Trump and President Zelensky? A No. a Pnion to this caII, did you have any discussions with 19 Ambassadon Bo1ton 20 Sondland and Giuliani? t4 15 16 L7 2t 22 23 24 25 A a younself about this altennative pnocess with No. Did Dn. HiIl bnief you at all on Ambassadon Bolton's views about Sondland on Giuliani? A a Could you nestate and be more specific? In youn tnansition meetings about Uknaine with Dn. Hi11, did UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS 7 she relay 2 of to you what she undenstood 32 I P]ED to be Ambassadon Bolton's opinion Mn. Giuliani? A 3 No. a A a 4 5 6 And how about Mn. Giuliani's role as it nelates to Uknaine? No. this call So, prion to on July 25th, YoU wene unaware, eithen dinect convensations on convensations with othen people, about 7 fnom 8 any resenvations Ambassadon Bolton had about the Uknaine situation? A a 9 10 That is conrect. OkaY. Were you pnesent when 1.1 A a A a 72 13 t4 15 the Pnesident was pnepped for this caIl? No. Do you know if he was onaI1y pnepped fon No. Do you know whethen Ambassadon Sondland 16 withdrawn. L7 Uknaine When did you we1l, ? A 19 THE CHAIRMAN: 20 Mn. Monnison, you mentioned 2L a negulan 22 night Duning call the tnansition meetings with Dn. HiI1. If I package could just clanify, Mn. Goldman. that eithen you on others pnepaned in anticipation ofthe July 25th call. Is that ? 23 MR. MORRISON: COrrCCt. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: And NSC or -- finst leann about Kunt Volken's role with 18 25 it? as to that would've been what should take place on the UNCLASS I FIED the necommendations of the call on to help prepare the UNCLASS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 7t t2 13 33 I FIED Pnesident fon the call? MR. MORRISON: Yes. I take it that the of issues that you descnibed was not mentioned anywhene in that ca}l package? MS. VAN GELDER: He can't talk to what was in the call package. THE CHAIRMAN: And THE CHAIRMAN: Bunisma bucket WeII, I'm asking what was excLuded fnom the call package. to avoid that whole bucket of issues. I take it that bucket of issues was not part of the official call package to the Pnesident. You said you wanted Mn. Monnison M5. VAN GELDER: I'm going to instruct him not to answen that question. I to infonm you and youn House has not invoked any pnivilege. They had the THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Monrison, need L4 counsel, the White 15 oppontunity, knowing of youn testimony, to convey to the committee that t7 this question on that question on this convensation on that question was pnivileged. They have made no such nepnesentation to the 18 committee, non have they sought to obtain an opinion fnom the Justice 19 Depantment 16 20 So we that anything that we'ne asking about is pnivileged. don't recognize any potential futune invocation of 27 pnivilege in this committee, and you are instnucted to 22 question. 23 MS. VAN GELDER: f'm going to instnuct him not to. I will just 24 basically 25 decision in U.S. v. Miens. say we ane answen the taking oun guidance fnom the We U. S. Distnict Count's believe that there is a pnesumptive UNCLASS IEIED UNCLASS 34 IF]ED 1 Pnesidential pnivilege. It is not his to waive. It is not his to 2 answen. tl If the committee desires to go to the count, as Judge Bates said in the Miens case, it is a question-by-question matten, then we will But we have been put in an awkward position, at most, in answen it. which the bunden of noncompliance is on the individual. so I say this with all due nespect, sin. I do not want to have eithen him on I in contempt, but I also recognize that this is a man with an ongoing secunity cleanance and that, you know, if we can get this laten, you can deal with it, we can go anound it, maybe we can wonk it out. But fon this moment, I would respectfully ask you if you L2 could table that and go back and get to the other issues which he can 13 talk. 14 point, it's a hard 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Then we can maybe, duning a bneak, talk about it. But at this stoP. t7 will -- let's do this. Let's duning a bneak see if we can do a workanound. But I do want to say fon the necond, while it is not the witness's position to waive a pnivilege, it is also 18 not his position to assent the pnivilege on behalf of the White House. 15 t6 THE CHAIRMAN: trle MS. VAN L9 20 GE just dinecting . LDER: Right him not to tale ' answer re not asserting pnivilege therein lies the THE CHAIRMAN: And 22 MS. VAN GELDER: Yes, 23 THE CHAIRMAN: We}1, we',11 come back 24 can do a wonkanound. 25 to me thene we are it. 27 I . problem. know. to this, and hopefully we If this was not part of the call package, it seems is no potential pnivilege involved UNCLASS I hene, but we can discuss FIED ) 35 UNCLASS] FIED 1 that duning a necess. Mn. Goldman. 2 BY MR. GOLDMAN: 3 a 4 So I was asking you about Ambassadon Volken, who was the 5 Special Envoy for Uknaine negotiations. But when did you leann that 6 Ambassadon Volken was al.so Let 7 me phnase 8 Vo1ken was 9 pant 10 TayIon. 72 a L4 15 16 19 20 And when was your aften July did you learn that Ambassadon one first of my convensations with Ambassadon convensation with Ambassadon Taylor 15th? You may consult with youn attonney. I nefnesh youn necollection with any document IDlscussion mean, You ane fnee to that you wish to look at. off the necond.] BY MR. GOLDMAN: a We'11 move Ambassadon A on. I guess the question is, did you speak with Taylon, do you know, befone the luly 25th call? To the best of my necollection, to pnovide 21 Ambassadon Taylon was 22 out-bniefing on the call. him what didn't speak to Not that I can necall. So you 24 a A 25 a Did you speak with 23 When involved in issues sepanate fnom the conflict in the eastern 77 18 it this way: of Uknaine? A It would've been in TL 13 involved in broaden Uknaine issues? my I initial thought was an appnopniate Ambassadon Ambassadon UNCLASS IFIED conversation with Taylon befone the call? Volken befone the call? UNCLASS ] A 1 a A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 36 FIED No. Did you speak with Can you be mone Ambassadon Sondland befone the call? specific? a Speak on the phone on in penson. A 0n any topic? a No. Sonny. 0n Uknaine issues. A I believe so. a When did you speak to him? 0n -- sonry. Let's just do it this way. The specific date doesn't matten as much as: Did you speak to him between July 15th and July 25th? L4 A YeS. a And can you descnibe what that conversation was about? A So we had an initial discussion, sont of an introduction, befone I officially took oven, whene we just genenally had an 15 introductony convensation. 7L L2 13 We 16 had a phone convensation not long t7 we wene planning 18 was asking, did aften I took oven, and while the cal1, to discuss what I knew, essentially. I have any visibility on when a He call might occun. 23 A And how did you respond? A I told him whene I undenstood it to be; we wene trying to schedule it. I -- yeah. I mean, we just generally -- "Do you know when the call will occun?" I placed inquinies in oun pnocess to figune out whene the nequest fon the call was, and I informed him of what I 24 knew. 19 20 2l 22 25 a Did he say anything to you about convensations UNCLASS ] FIED - - duning that 37 UNCLASS I t 2 FIED call, did he say anything to you about convensations with any Uknainian officials? 3 A Not 4 a Do you know whethen he spoke 5 A I The only necollection have neviewed to 9 I have of that fact is of some of these engagements. a Okay. That's a diffenent L2 Wene answen. you awane of whethen Ambassadon Volken was in touch with 74 officials about the call pnion to the call? A No, I don't believe I was. 15 a 16 Wene you awane t7 based on what in the testimony. 11 13 officials any Uknainian a Okay. And did the testimony nefnesh youn necollection? A To the best of my necollection, it was the finst I }eanned 8 10 that I necaII. befone the call? 6 7 he was having phone any Uknainian A11 right. that Dn. Kuppenman had a call with Oleksandn Danylyuk on July 20th? A 0n JuIy 20th? No. a 0n anound that time? A No. But I was on tnavel pnetty much immediately 18 19 20 2L over on July 22 a 23 So you helped aften taking 1-5th. Okay. 24 fon a Pnesidential 25 the to pnepane calll And those, sont of, typical talking points I say "typical-" nonmal pnocess. UNCLASS I F]ED in the sense that that's UNCLASS I A 1 2 We have a fonmal package. everything has a template. 38 FIED t^Je are veny pnocess-oniented; We completed the template. 4 at that point, you had alneady detenmined that you wanted to stay away fnom the Bunisma bucket of investigations. Is that 5 night 3 a ? A I 6 7 And, was advised to do so by Dn. Hill duning oun tnansition convensations, yes. And 9 a A 10 a So 8 did you follow that advice? Yes. let's -- in neviewing open-sounce infonmation today, did 11 you review any text messages that have been neleased nelated L2 issue ? 13 A Yes. 74 a Did you neview a 15 IDiscussion a 17 Did you neview a 79 President Z convinces 20 what happened' 27 Good 25 text -- one second. message fnom Kunt Volken said, quote, Yenmak whene Volken 24 message fnom off the necord.] 18 23 text BY MR. GOLDMAN: 16 22 to this "Heand from White to House. Andney Assuming will investigate/'get to the bottom of in 2OL6, we will nail down date fon visit to Washington. Tnump he luck"? Did you A Yes. a -- read that one? You wene not awane of this back-channel effonts by Ambassadon Volker? Is that what youn testimony is? A At what point in time? UNCLASS I FlED UNCLASS I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 L7 12 13 L4 15 16 L7 a A a A a awane of A a A At this point. In the lead-up to the call on JuIy No. And pnion to neading about Yes. 0kay. When did you become f can't recaLL exactly, Taylon bnought 24 25 it was something that Ambassadon a Okay. In the JuIy 28th call you had with him? A No. a A11 night. Let's get to the July 25th call. Whene did you listen to the call? A The White House Situation Room. a Who else was in the Situation Room with you? A To the best of my recollection, Rob BIain from the White House fnom my 23 but awane? to my attention. 19 22 it in the news, did you become -- Chief of Staff's office, 27 25? Right. 18 20 39 F]ED I fnom NSC Pness, Alexanden Vindman office, lennifen Williams, and Genenal Keith Kellogg fnom OVP. a Was Dn. Kupperman thene? A He was not in the Situation Room. a Do you know whethen he was listening to the call elsewhene? A I have been infonmed, based on neview of open-source matenial aften the fact -- and f can't speak to its venacity -- that he was. a But you didn't leann fnom him dinectly at that point? UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS A 1 2 3 4 40 IE]ED NO. a Do you know whethen Secnetany Pompeo joined the call? A I've leanned fnom open-sounce neponting aften the fact that Secnetany Pompeo's counseLon was listening to the call on a dnop 1ine, 6 but I can't independently vouch fon that fact. a Okay. We1l, let me ask you this question: 7 whethen any 8 wene 5 other American officials not in the Situation 9 A Yes. 10 a Who? 72 13 1.4 A we They pnepane then review. a 19 To youn knowledge, 2t 22 23 24 25 Room? the original input to the MEMCoN package that 18 20 who that has been neleased? 16 17 listening to the call A WHSR pensonnel who prepane the MEMCON package. a What pensonnel? A Sonny. hJhite House Situation Room. a Okay. They'ne the ones who pnepane the summany of the call 11 15 wene Do you know Okay. did President that you had pnepaned fon Tnump follow the talking points him? A On advice of counsel, I can't answer that question. a Okay. Sonny. I'm just pulling up youn -- Mn. Morrison -A I would like to clanify, I was not the sole author of the bniefing package. I was the final neviewing authonity. a Undenstood. who was the othen -- who was the pnimany author? UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS 1 A Alex Vindman. 2 a 3 call, did thene come a time concenned about anything that you heand? So, as you wene listening to the when you became 4 A Yes. 5 a And what do you 6 moment 7 you 8 4L IE]ED necall being the first time -- fon the finst that you were concenned, what was the subject that concenned ? A So I was concenned about how Pnesident Zelensky was talking L2 to President Tnump. I found it obsequious. I heand issues nelated to the senven. And I was concer.ned that Dn. HiIl was connect about thls panalIe1 pnocess. And I gnew concenned that the call was not the full-thnoated endonsement of the Uknaine refonm agenda that I was 13 hoping 9 10 11 t4 15 16 L7 18 to hean. a What language did Pnesident Zelensky speak? A I necall him speaking sont of chopped English, but he also had a tnanslaton. a A Meaning Yes. 20 a Okay. A No. 2t a 19 22 23 24 25 that he also spoke Uknainian? Do you speak Uknainian? You said that when you heand the senven mentioned that of Dr. Hill -- ot', sonry, that concerned the altennative pnocess of Dn. Hill, what do you mean by that? A It menely pnovided confinmation of the concenns Dn. Hill naised about this panallel pnocess that was completely new to me. This confinmed the concenns UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS 7 2 3 is 42 IF]ED in that para1Ie1 pnocess. a And did it concern you because this was now the Pnesident one of the topics she advised of the United States was pnomoting those altennative views? 6 I was focused on -- I was waiting fon the president to talk a little bit more fonwand-leaning -- with a little bit mone of a fonwand-leaning endonsement of the Zelensky nefonm 7 agenda. 4 5 8 9 A a My pnimany concenn was okay, but you specifically said that the senven confinmed fon you that there was an alternative pnocess that was you knew thene was an 11 pnocess. What was youn concenn hearing Pnesident 13 A I not directly awane of it. I was Tnump? not dinectly awane of it finsthand, pensonally, until that point. L4 a 15 Do you 16 was guess -- on you had been told thene was an altennative 10 t2 -- but I Got it. recall in the moment when President Tnump stanted talking about Ambassadon Yovanovitch? 18 A I necall -- I don't think he mentioned her name, but I necall him making an oblique refenence that I laten understood was Ambassadon 19 Yovanovitch. 77 20 21 22 23 24 25 a A a A a A And did you have an immediate neaction to that? No. Do you necall hearing him mention Bidens? Yes. to that? of what Dn. Hill And what was youn immediate neaction Again, it was mone confirmation UNCLASS I FIED had infonmed UNCLASS 1 me was out thene. a 2 43 I FIED You said that an NSC Legal no one from the NSC Legal noom but that you pnomptly went to see the Legal Advison and his deputy to -- on you asked them to review it. 3 Advisor's Office was in the 4 NSC 5 Who ane 6 A 7 Michael E]]is. you nefenning to, with the NSC Legal Advison and the deputy? The NSC Lega1 Advisor is lohn Eisenbeng. His deputy is 10 a How pnomptly aften the call did you ask them to neview it? A It was fainly contemponaneous. It was -- I don't recall if it was the finst thing I did after the caII, but it was fainly shont 11 orden. 8 9 a 72 13 And why did you go to speak to them to ask them to neview it? A Oniginally -- 74 so my initial concern was, as I said in my 15 statement, thene was nobody fnom the Lega1 Advison's Office on the 16 I L7 thein deputies, 18 on 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 wanted them to have eyes on one it. I didn't want of the line attonneys. I call. it to fall to one of wanted them to put eyes it. a tl'Ihy? A Because I was concenned about whethen on not they would agnee that it would be damaging fon the neasons I outlined in my statement if the caII package if the call MEMCON on its contents leaked. a So your primany concenn aften this call occunned was that it would leak? A Yes. UNCLASS I FIED 44 F]ED UNCLASS I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 zS Q was wenen't I You understand iIIegaI, but did you think that it A Q that you didn't think that it was appnopniate on propen? I think what was appnopriate on pnopen? Did Pnesident Tnump's convensation. Do you think that Pnesident Tnump's wonds wene propen? A I did not have a view on that. Q Okay. So you wene just concenned that it would leak. And you wene concerned that it would leak you gave fon thnee neasons in youn opening statement. The first is how it would play out in Washington's polanized envinonment. So is another way of saying that that you were concenned about the political implications of that? A I was concenned about how Washington's political the contents would be used in pnocess. a Because you thought it would look poonly on the Pnesident? A Wel1, I mean, it's neally the thnee neasons I outlined. It was, I was concenned about how it could be used. I didn't necessarily fully undenstand how everybody could use it, but I was concenned that it would wind up politicizing Uknaine. I was concenned that that would, in turn, cost bipantisan suppont. And I was concenned about how the Uknainians would intennalize that. a A a A We1}, the Uknainians wene obviously on the cal1. Yes. So what was youn concenn about them? We1I, thene's one thing fon what they hean finsthand fnom the Pnesident; thene's anothen thing fon UNCLASS IFIED how that then gets used in UNCLASS 1 2 the political 45 pnocess. But you wenen't concenned what they heard about finsthand. a 3 You were 4 pnocess 5 IFIED just concenned about what they would hean ? A Yes. UNCLASS ] FIED in the political UNCLASS I 19:tO a.m. l L BY MR. GOLDMAN: 2 a 3 4 46 FIED the political Why wene you more concerned about pnocess rathen than what they heand fnom the Pnesident of the United States? 6 A I can't speak to that. I'm simply netelling you what I was wonnied about when I heand the call and why I went oven and talked to 7 the Lega1 Advisor. 5 a A 8 9 10 is what Why can't you sPeak to that? I'm tnying to relate to you what thought at the thought at the time as I nelated I a Right. I 11 I time. This it in my statement. undenstand what you said in youn statement. I'm 12 cunious, though, that you wene concerned about the effect on Ukrainian 13 penceptions t4 penceptions of a leak, but you wene not concenned about Uknainian from the content of the convensation? 15 A 16 THE CHAIRMAN: 17 MR. MORRISON: No, 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Connect. of the concerns, to Did you have anything you wanted add? sir. Okay. I just wanted to fo1low up a bit and thene may be an overlap between the on this. finst two 19 One 20 concenns you mentioned about 27 Finst, you said you wene concenned how it would play out in Washington's 22 polanized envinonment and, second, how a leak would affect bipantisan 23 suppont fon oun Uknainian pantners. 24 25 Wene the caII, and if the call became public. those concenns nelated to the fact that the President asked his Ukrainian countenpant to look into on investigate the UNCLASS I FIED Bidens? 47 UNCLASS I FIED not sPecificallY. t MR. MORRISON: No, 2 THE CHAIRMAN: So you didn't think that the Pnesident of the 3 United States asking his countenpant to conduct an investigation into 4 a potential opponent 5 suppont in in the 2@2@ election might influence bipantisan Congness? 6 MR. MORRISON: 7 THE CHAIRIvIAN: And you 8 bninging up one of his 9 and asking a favon NO. wenen't concenned that the Pnesident political opponents in the Pnesidential election with respect to the DNC senven or 2@!6 theony, you 10 wenen't concerned that those things would cause people to believe that 11 the Pnesident was asking his countenpant to conduct an investigation t2 that might influence his neelection campaign? 13 MR. MORRISON: No. L4 THE CHAIRMAN: That neven occunned to 15 MR. MORRISON: NO. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you necognize duning the 77 to the call that if 18 it would inure a 21 23 24 25 -- as you }istened investigations, that to the Pnesident's political intenests? NO. BY MR. GOLDMAN: 20 22 Uknaine wene to conduct these MR. MORRISON: 19 you? and Did the Pnesident's discussion the Bidens, was official policy A No. a of CnowdStnike, the senven, that consistent with what you undenstood to be U.S. towands Uknaine? Did you have any funthen convensations with lohn Eisenbeng UNCLASS I EIED 48 UNCLASSI FIED 1. or Michael Ellis about this call? A 2 3 Subsequent to when I talked to them on the 25th, did I have additional convensations with them about the call? 11 A Yes. A Yes. a When was the next convensation that you had? A It may have been laten that day. a Okay. And had they neviewed the call tnanscript by the time you had youn second meeting - - on the preliminany - A Yes. a -- tnanscnipt? And what was the punpose of that second t2 conversation with 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 A I necommended to them that we restnict access to the package. a And how did you necommended to do that? A I recommended that we did not need quite so many people to 13 74 15 16 have access a A a L7 18 L9 20 2L them? Why to the package. Did you No, necommend way to nestrict access? I did not. Why wene you concerned about a leak of did you think this call A a specific Because it's this call? I'm sonny. may be leaked? been my expenience in government thene's veny 23 little that doesn't. a Had you even asked fon nestnicted access to any other head 24 of state call that 22 25 A you listened in on? Could you nestate? UNCLASS I FIED 49 UNCLASS I a t 2 Have you FIED Iistened to othen caIls between Pnesident Tnump and foneign leadens? 3 A 4 THE YeS. CHAIRMAN: In that negand, Mn. Monnison, wene thene any othen 5 calls that you listened in on whene immediately theneaften you went 6 stnaight to the Office of the Legal MS. VAN GELDER: 7 8 9 I 'm sorry. You can 't answer that. I think that in looking at youn subpoena, it's been subpoenaed to testify about. THE CHAIRMAN: WeI1, 10 Counsel? outside the bounds of what he with nespect, Counsel, has if this is the only 11 time that he went dinectly to the legal counsel's office, that would t2 be nelevant. 13 nelevant. Mr. Mornison, can you tell us whethen thene t4 15 where you went 16 Advisor 19 20 2t essentially dinectly fnom wene any othen calls the call to the Office of Legal ? MS. VAN 6ELDER: Can he answen L7 18 If this was a noutine pnactice, that would also be the question whethen it was noutine on THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Let's ask it that way. it noutine fon you, aften a Presidential call that listened in on, to go to the Lega1 Advison? Was 22 MS. VAN GELDER: To 23 THE CHAIRMAN: 24 MS. VAN GELDER: 25 THE CHAIRMAN: nestrict access, to ask to nestnict No. I'm just asking whethen you accesses. -- Okay. A11 right. -- this was unusual, UNCLASS I EIED on your usual pnactice aften UNCLASS I 1 listening in on Pnesidential call to go dinectly to the legal MR. MORRISON: Not 3 THE CHAIRMAN: youn answen. the best of youn necollection, this 5 To 6 MR. MORRISON: 8 necollection about. 9 today's heaning, on the scope you outlined L2 13 t4 15 76 say something I am specifically prepaned, fon the THE CHAIRMAN: So I this way: Was it your practice to go immediately to the legaI counsel's office aften you listened in on Pnesidential calls on was this unusual? with nespect to othen ca1ls. Let It BY MR. 19 a me ask you was not my pnactice. THE CHAIRMAN: MN. GOIdMAN. GOLDMAN: Have you even asked the legal counsel to restrict access on any othen Presidential phone call? A Could you nestate the question? Had you even asked 24 a A 25 a -- to nestnict access? 23 in youn letten. No, I'm not asking about evenything that you did 18 22 punpose of caII. Thene wene othen calls I listened in to. I did not invest any time in attempting to reca11 evenything I did about those caI1s. MR. MORRISON: 2t in tenms specifically looked into what I did with nespect to the July 25th phone t7 20 my answen that I subsequently have a diffenent of I don't want to 11 was unusual? Sin, I'm tnying to be caneful in 7 10 counsel? to the best of my recollection. I just want to make sune that I'm undenstanding 2 4 50 F]ED the Legal Advison No. The answen UNCLASS I FIED is no. UNCLASS Do you 1 2 call 51 ] FIED necall whethen the White House neleased a neadout of this ? 11 A Yes. a It did? The Whlte House did, publicly? A A press neadout aften the call? No, I guess I don't necall. a You pnepaned one, though? A Yes. a Was that pnepaned in advance of the call? A Yes. a Did it have to be changed aften the call? A It was -- it may have been. It was not uncommon fon us to 72 adapt a pnepaned statement fon what actually transpined on the ca11. 3 4 5 6 7 I 9 10 a 13 L4 to 16 A 19 statement 20 up 22 23 24 25 nead public neadouts? points that you and Lieutenant Colonel Vindman had 18 2L the pness nelease on A I don't necall specifically. a Was that a pne-pnepaned pness nelease based on the talking 15 t7 change Undenstood. But do you necaIl specifically whethen you had Oun pnocess pnepaned? is to coondinate with NSC pness to to issue aften a call pnepane a to come Going back to youn conversations with.the Lega1 Advison, just based on, yes, what we expect in the ca1l. A to necap, you asked them to nestnict access. Did you say anything else to them about the call? A I asked them to take a look at the call, see anybody fnom their office on the call. UNCLASS IFIED because I didn't 52 UNCLASS a That was in the finst A Connect. L 2 T FIED convensation? 4 a The second convensation? A I necommended that we nestnict 5 a 3 to the package. And did you say anything else about the substance of the 7 call -A 8 a 9 second time? 6 that I necall. -- to them? Did you speak to both Eisenberg and Ellis Not 10 A I believe so. 11 a T2 to And who nesponded youn request A 15 Who nesponded? them spoke. Okay. their L7 a 18 MS. VAN GELDER: 19 MR. MORRISON: TheY agneed. 20 MR. GOLDMAN: Did to anyone What was nesPonse? I'm going to ask you fon this one they indicate to you whethen they had spoken else about the call? 22 MS. VAN GELDER: ThAt 23 MR. GOLDMAN: The 24 MS. VAN GELDER: 25 access that a Yes. Ellis or Eisenbeng? A It was an in-person convensation. I don't necall which of 74 21 to nestnict the you recall? 13 16 access I -. is not pnivileged. with you on that. If you go fanthen, fact of the agree convensation you'ne night. I was pnematune, and I withdraw my objection. UNCLASS IE]ED 53 UNCLASS I FIED BY MR. GOLDMAN: L a Did they indicate whethen they A Yes, I undenstood they did. 2 3 4 a who? 5 A The NSC Executive Secnetaniat. 6 a Was 7 access connection to A Yes. 9 a And No. 72 a Did you have an oppontunity edits was 16 a Undenstood. Sonny. A A MEMCON package. L7 a 15 to A MEMCON make any 19 A I 20 a 22 23 24 25 to anybody to review the tnanscnipt to make based on youn notes? A I wouldn't agnee it L4 2t spoke else who listened to the call? A 18 anyone else? to nestrict the did they speak -- do you know if they 11 13 youn request to ? 8 10 that in had spoken edits a tnanscnipt. How would you like to descnibe it? package. Did you neview the MEMCON package in orden based on youn notes? neviewed the package. I do not recall making any edits. But the punpose of the neviewing the package was youn notes and make any edits to neview that you deem necessany? A Yes, but it's also to neview the original speech-to-text tnanslation of the caIl. a And by the time that you neviewed it, had the tnanscnipt alneady divented fnom the nonmal pnocedunes? UNCLASS I EIED 54 UNCLASS I L A FIED No. 5 a At some point did you become aware of whethen it was put into sYstem? the highly classified f IDiscussion off the necond.] MR. MORRISON: I don't want to acknowledge the tenms fon the 6 systems, but yes. 2 3 4 BY MR. GOLDMAN: 7 will just talk about a highly classified system. 8 a 9 And wene you even pnovided 10 11 L2 13 L4 15 16 77 18 L9 20 2L 22 23 24 25 placed We in the highly classified with an explanation for why it was system? A Yes. a What was the explanation you wene given? A It was a mistake. a It was a mistake? A Yes. a Who told you that? A lohn Eisenbeng. a When did he te}l you that? A It would have been in the course of pneparing the Pnesident fon the meeting between himself and Pnesident Zelensky in a How did that convensation come uP? A Because I tried to gain access to the package. a And what happened when you tnied to gain access? A It was no longer in the Pontal. a And what did you do next? UNCLASS I EIED Wansaw. 55 UNCLASS 1 A I figured out 2 a How? 3 A By 4 a And 5 system 7 a And Eisenbeng 10 11 told you it was a mistake to have been put it staff related that they believed they wene instnucted by John Eisenbeng to put it on that system. a And so whose mistake was it to put it on the system? The Exec-Sec A Thein mistake. A So, just to be cIean, John Eisenbeng said to the Executive 13 t4 Secretany 15 it -- said that Executive Secnetary made a mistake by putting on the highly classified system? 16 A Yes. L7 a And that this was aften John Eisenbeng had told you that he agneed access would be nestnicted? 79 A Yes. 20 a Ane you awane 2L in this highly classified ? A L2 18 was ? Yes. 9 was. it turned out that it A thene it talking to the Executive Secnetaniat staff. 6 8 where ] FIED of any othen Pnesidential phone put on the highly classified 22 A I 23 a calls that wene system? of that. thene was nothing in this have no finsthand knowledge To youn knowledge, 24 would meet the nequinements 25 connect to be put on a ? UNCLASS I FIED MEMC0N highly classified that system, 56 UNCLASS 7 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A Conrect. Sorny. a Did you have any funthen discussions with John Eisenbeng about nemoving it fnom the highly classified system? A Yes. a Descnibe what -- that convensation. It is not pnivileged. MS. SEWELL: [Pnesiding.] I just want to nemind the attonney that it is impontant that you speak into the mike MS. VAN GELDER: -- 0h, I'm sornY. that it so 10 MS. SEWELL: tl MR. CASTOR: When you confen L2 I EIED can be tnanscnibed. Thank you. with youn client, turn at any nate, fonmally speaking into the mike when the mike off? 13 MS. VAN GELDER: Did you hean what L4 MR. CASTOR: 15 MS. VAN GELDER: Thank you. L6 MS. SEWELL: But t7 tnanscnibed. MS. VAN GELDER: We have 19 MS 20 MS. VAN GELDER: . SEIdE LL : GOtChA a height diffenence here. . In an effont to continue this, can he speak in a genenal tenm and then if you want to foIlow 22 MR. GOLDMAN: SUTC. 23 MR. MORRISON: Could you nepeat up? the question? BY MR. GOLDMAN: 24 25 I said, Steve? I did not. 18 21 don't you why a So describe, genenally, the convensation that you had about UNCLASS I FIED 57 I EIED UNCLASS L lohn Eisenbeng about aften he said 2 was any discussion about moving it was a mistake and whethen thene 6 it out of that system. A So when we -- if we'ne still on when we wene tnying to gain access to it to pnepare the Pnesident fon the planned Wansaw meeting, it was, how did it get on thene. John nelated that he did not ask fon it to be put on thene, but that the Executive Secnetaniat staff 7 misundenstood 3 4 5 8 9 to nestnict access. a So he undenstood that he had told the Executive Secnetany staff to nestnict access, that much he acknowledgedi A 10 his necommendation He acknowledged -- fon how he agneed with my necommendation and he had also infonmed the 15 staff to restnict access. a What othen ways would thene be to nestrict access? A You have to undenstand the pontal system. You can assign access to any panticular package on, nealIy, any topic to an entine distnibution list fon an entire dinectorate, like my dinectonate, the 16 EUR dinectonate, or you can, by name, assign access. 11 t2 13 t4 L7 a And just to Exec-Sec be cIean, you 19 this highly classified A I did not. 20 a 2L MR. GOLDMAN: 22 MS. SEWELL: The minonity 23 MR. CASTOR: Thank you. 18 placed on MEMCON to be system? OkaY. I think oun time is up, so we yield to the minonity. will have t houn. BY MR. CASTOR: 24 25 did not ask fon this a When you mentioned to lohn Eisenberg UNCLASS I FIE D youn concenns about the UNCLASS leaking, did you have any idea what might be implemented othen 1 memo 2 than put it on the highly classified system? A I had in mind that we would by name -- that we would nestnict 3 4 to by name access. a And that can be done on the system that's not highly access 5 6 classified ? A That's connect. That's the function of the Exec-Sec 7 8 pensonnel. a Okay. 9 Did you have any 10 communications you had 1.I nefenned on nelated -- with Eisenbeng, 13 the -- what 74 Assembly, we again sought access and 15 So 16 out 20 2t 22 23 24 25 EIlis. became the Ambassador POTUS-ZeIensky meeting it Any othens about that 0'Bnien fon at the U.N. Genenal was again sti11 nestnicted. I necall talking to John at that time of, John, did we even figune how to get this thing a Did Eisenberg on T7 19 you talked about two to the 7 /25 call? A So, in the counse of preparing L2 18 58 I FIED that moved down? EIIis even appnoach you about othen concenns to them by othen people? A Based -- I'm going to be clean -- wene naised based on the July 25 call? a Connect. A No. a Did you know if anybody else listening to the call -A -- even, ever? Not to the best of my necollection. a Okay. Do you know if anyone else on the call went to Eisenbeng to express concenns? UNCLASS I FlED 59 I FIED UNCLASS L A I leanned based on pnepaning fon today's pnoceedings, based I have no finsthand knowledge, that 2 on open-sounce neponting, which 3 othen pensonnel did naise concenns. a A 4 5 6 Based on the open-sounce neporting, without finsthand knowledge, AIex Vindman on my a A a 7 8 9 10 Who? staff. to you, conrect? And he neponts He does. find Did you it unusual when you leanned that that youn dinect report went to Mn. Eisenbeng? A 11 Unfontunate, but not unusual. 16 a Can you explain that? A My pnedecesson had a diffenent style fon managing hen staff than I do. a And what was that style? A She did not have the same view of how neponting thnough the L7 chain L2 13 l4 15 18 19 20 2t of command a Okay. to you ought to A a should work. So it was youn expectation keep you in the loop that people who neponted about impontant mattens? Yes. And so people if people that neponted to you needed to go 22 talk with the lega1 team about concerns they had, you would expect to 23 be kept 24 25 in the loop? A Depending upon the issue. a Okay. If the issue didn't involve any, you know, sensitive UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS t 2 3 misconduct A a or 60 I EIED employee issues? Yes. So, if it is official business, you would expect to have a 4 convensation with youn dinect reponts befone communicating with the 5 lawyens 6 7 8 9 10 1.7 72 13 14 15 15 ? A a Yes. And it wasn't until -- at what point did you learn that Lieutenant Colonel Vindman went to Mn. Eisenbeng? A About the JuIy 25th phone call? a Yes. A In the counse of neviewing for this pnoceeding, the open a A a neviewing necond. So nelatively recently? Yes. So Eisenberg neven came conversation to you and relayed to you that ? 23 A No. a El1is didn't eithen? A Not to the best of my necollection. a The memonandum of convensation that, the MEMCON, you believed it was accurate? A I believe it was accunate and complete. a And in youn view, there was nothing impnopen that occunred 24 duning the call? L7 18 19 20 2t 22 25 A Correct. UNCLASSI FIED 61 UNCLASS a A a 1 2 3 4 Nothing illegal? As I said in my statement, connect. And that you'ne A only reason fon going to legaI counsel No, thene wene two reasons. but 7 appnopniate senion been awane know, level attention. of that give you concern that these things that leaks is something to L2 13 M5. VAN GELDER: Sonny, Mn. go beyond the scope a 16 A a 19 Caston. I'm not going to have him of his testimony hene today. Yes. Duning the counse of the editing process of the in the loop with othen individuals you 2L to the package? 25 us about othen leaks genenally? But thene have been enough leaks that you had a genenalized 20 24 you concenn about that? 18 23 -- BY MR. CASTOR: 15 22 have been be wonnied about? A Yes. a Okay. And what can you tell 11 t7 was concenned about leaks, a Okay. Fain enough. Had thene been any leaks that you had 8 74 I I also wanted to make sune that the package was reviewed by the 6 10 youn was because you wene concenned about leaks? 5 9 I FIED A a A a I am who MEMCON, wene supplied or suggested edits effectively the final cleaning authonity. okay. Were you awane of Colonel Vindman's suggested edits? I saw edits in the package made by Colonel Vindman and othens. okay. Do you nememben what Colonel Vindman's UNCLASS IF]ED edits were? UNCLASS A 1 As I necaII, Colone1 Vindman, being a fluent points, the tnanslation 2 speaken, was concenned at vanious 3 was 4 he heand. And 5 packages ane cneated, 5 with a foneign language like Ukrainian 7 have 8 9 10 11 t2 13 L4 15 16 not high fidelity. And so he made true, edits to tny to connect what it's not uncommon, especially when you're deali.ng and foreign language tenms, to a Do you nememben if all his edits wene inconporated? A I accepted all of them. a Okay. To the extent he believes edits wenen't accepted, do you know how that could have occunned? A I do not. a Any othen edits fnom othen individuals that supplied edits, listened to the cal1, but wene not implemented -- A Not that I can necall. a -- to youn knowledge? 18 agneement So is your pnactice as the final to accept the edits if you had a contemporaneous with what occunned? 20 A a 2L MR. CASTOR: Can you make as Yes. Okay. exhibit 1 the call recond on the MEMCON? 23 [Minonity Exhibit No. 24 was manked fon 25 was not to cornect things. cleaning authonity 22 Uknainian in the counse of these neviews, based on how these 77 19 62 ] FIED identification.l BY MR. CASTOR: UNCLASS I 1 FIED 63 UNCLASS a 1 2 want to Hene mank is exhibit 1. it Hene ane a couple of extna copies if you up. I'm going to nefen you to 3 I FIED page 4. The ]ast line of the finst 5 it. . . it sounds horrible to me. " Do you necall if anybody offened edits to fill in the gap there 6 fon the ellipse? 4 panagnaph ending 8 what t2 13 t4 15 76 L7 in That this is a conversation a Okay. 19 Then So mean and it doesn't necessanily occun the ellipse could mean that the speaken tnailed Okay. I want to 20 is the seventh line 2t on she 22 you mentioned 25 into off without finishing a sentence? A It could. a Could it mean anything else? A That's the most commonplace meaning. Usually if something is said that is inaudible, we would note in bnackets "inaudible." a 24 you can look complete sentences. 18 23 if ? A 10 11 "So A I do not. a And would an ellipse ondinanily, in youn expenience, 7 9 in, will nefen you down, to the veny next panagnaph. I think it sixth line down, as He look into this situation, specifically to the company that in this issue -- Do you rememben if and this is Pnesident Zelensky speaking. anybody supplied MEMCON? A I the sentence neads: do not. UNCLASS I FIED edits to this pant of the 64 UNCLASS I Q okay. 1 And you wene on 2 3 4 the 5 5 7 the word Bunisma to the 8 call, 9 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 15 L7 18 19 ZO 2t 22 23 24 25 name Bunisma came up on FIED the call. Do you nememben whethen the call? A No, I don't believe it did. Q Okay. Do you rememben whethen anyone suggested edits adding MEMCON? A Idonot. e Okay. But if somebody had suggested and youn contemponaneous necollection that edit, that the was on the wond was mentioned, you would have gone ahead and implemented the edit? I recalled on had in my notes that was mentioned, I would have agneed to the edit. Dr. A Had a Did you have any convensations, emails, communications with Kuppenman about YQS, this call? that I necall. A Not a Okay. Anybody else on the call on your chain of command that you spoke with about the call? A Beyond a A Yes. a And those I've already mentioned? No. with those that you've mentioned, did you have bny communications with them about concerns, about the content of the A Within my chain of command? A Within eithen the people on -Blain, I, call? on the call and you mentioned Vindman, Wi1liams, Kellogg, and then youn chain would be Dr. Kuppenman, Ambassadon Bolton. UNCLASSI FIED of command UNCLASS A a A a A t 2 3 4 5 Uh-huh. So that's sont of the univense I'm thinking And also Mn. Eisenbeng. Uh-huh. Did you have any communications with any of that 7 concenns, whethen they wene youn concenns on anyone 8 concenns 9 A 10 about hene. Uh-huh. a 6 65 I EIED gnoup about in that gnoup's ? My only necollection of discussing concenns was with lohn and Michael. 24 a Okay. And it was about the leak issue? A Yes. a Duning the July 25th ca}I, you're in the Situation Room, the I think you refenned to them as the WHSR staff? A Yes. a How many officials pnepane the I'm going to say tnanscnipt -- that's not the night tenm, as I undenstand it, but how many Situation Room officials ane tnanscnibing the call? A I don't know. a Do they do the -- thein wonk in a diffenent noom? A YeS. a So it is an anteroom off the Situation Room? A It's mone appnopniate to think of the Situation Room as a lange facility of which the listening noom is a small pnivate confenence 25 noom. 11 72 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 21 22 23 UNCLASS I F]ED 66 UNCLASS I L 2 3 a A a So FIED they ane in anothen pant of the Situation Room complex? Yes. Do you know how they pnepane thein tnanscnipt? Do they have 6 into a micnophone? A I have no firsthand knowledge. My knowledge of how they do it this is limited to what I have obsenved -- what I have nead in 7 neponting 4 5 8 9 10 11 72 13 1.4 15 16 L7 18 count neporting type devices, or do they speak in pnepanation fon today exclusively. a Okay. Fnom youn expenience of MEMCONs genenally, ane they considened accurate among those A a Cou1d you nestate on be mone Are considened MEMCoNs, definitive genenally A We do oun best to adhene to the Pnesidential Reconds Act. a Okay. So -A It should be a complete and accunate netelling of the convensation. a Okay. And have there any been any episodes whene you can nememben whene people wene -- 20 Mn. Caston, and 21 the scope of this inquinY. not going to answen that. just fon the necond the basis is it is outside MR. CASTOR: OkaY. BY MR. CASTOR: 23 25 NSC documents? MS. VAN GELDER: He's 24 specific? within the building, within the 19 22 in the building? a Did you subsequently have a convensation with Taylon about what occunned on the July 25th call? UNCLASS I FIED Ambassadon 67 UNCLASS] F]ED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A Yes. a And do you nememben when that was? A I remember neaching out to Ambassadon Taylon to that day to find out when we could schedule a secune call so I could pnovide him what I deemed an appropniate neadout of the call. a Okay. And when did that occun? A Um -a A To the best of youn necollection. So I think Ambassadon Taylon's statement is genenally 10 the night timefname fon 11 togethen. t2 13 when we wene able about to get on a secune call a Okay. And what do you rememben relating to Ambassadon Taylon about the caII? 19 I said in my statement, I think his -- his statement is genenally conrect. I gave him a genenal neadout of the calI, and I told him I think it could have gone betten. A And why did you think the call could have gone betten? A As I said in my statement, and subsequent to that in answering questions today, I was hoping fon a mone fonward leaning embrace of 20 Pnesident Zelensky's nefonm agenda fnom the President. 1.4 15 16 t7 18 A As 22 a In the counse of youn duties, what othen officials did you pnovide a neadout to about the call? Wene thene any othen intenagency 23 pantnens 2t 24 25 that you had to bnief? Anybody A Not that I necall. a Okay. So including Ambassadon UNCLASS at the State Depantment? Taylon, we sort of identified IFIED UNCLASS I 68 FIED 2 all of the folks you spoke to about the call duning the time peniod? THE CHAIRMAN: If I could intenject hene and counsel wanned about 3 this at the initiation of the heaning. L We want to make sune that thene 5 to tny to, by pnocess of elimination, identify the whistleblowen. If you think these questions ane designed to get at 6 that infonmation, on may pnoduce that information, I would 7 you 4 is no effont to follow youn counsef's advice. off the necond.] 8 IDiscussion 9 MR. MORRISON: Could you nepeat a lust wondening if 11 call 14 you had any othen communications about the ? A a 13 Not that I -- not that I in the course of his duties 16 neadouts to? 18 19 you. What types of officials would he be nesponsible fon providing off the necond.] MR. MORRISON: He -- he may have felt it appnopniate to speak to other depantments and agencies if they had questions about the ca11. IDiscussion BY MR. CASTOR: 20 23 a A a 24 MS. VAN GELDER: 21 22 25 can recall. Colonel Vindman, he neports to 15 L7 the question? BY MR. CASTOR: 10 L2 encounage is beyond Do you know if he did? Yes. And who -- do you know who he spoke to? I'm not going to allow him to the scope of this inquiny. UNCLASS I FIED answen that, it 69 UNCLASS I EIED MR. CASTOR: How 1 2 asking we' ne talking about the 7 /25 cal1, just he knew who Lieutenant Colonel Vindman pnovide readouts to. MS. VAN GELDER: 3 4 if is that, Yes. And he is to talk about his knowledge with respect MR. CASTOR: WeI1, 5 6 he doesn't know about. 7 MS. VAN GELDER: I'm not asking him to testify about something I'm just saying it is outside the scope of 8 I believe his testimony is, which is 9 jeopandized U.S. national secunity by pnessing Ukraine whethen President what Tnump to intenfene 10 with the 2O2Q election, and by withholding a White House meeting with LL Ukraine and militany assistance pnovided by Congness L2 counten Russian aggnession, as well as any effonts 13 matters. L4 If 15 to cover 18 like to ask him if an he knows it to coven up these of anybody who has asked up those mattens MR. CASTOR: Oh, 16 t7 you would to help Uknaine official who wonks no, I'm just asking about readouts that Vindman, fon Morrison, gave on the call. MS. VAN GELDER: Mn. Caston, with all due nespect, we can talk 19 with counsel as I alneady have an appointment with Mn. Goldman duning 20 the bneak on how we can maybe 2L MR. CASTOR: Okay. 22 MS. VAN GELDER: But 23 THE CHAIRMAN: And 24 25 wonk anound these. night again, I now I'm going to instnuct him not to. want to expness my concenn that these to identify and out the whistleblower. And I would hope that's not counsel's intention. The whistleblowen questions are designed to tny UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS I to anonymity. public neponts that the 1. has a night 2 the whistleblowen has been thneatened. 3 used, on 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 LL 70 F]ED Thene ane We do not want this life of committee this testimony used, to tny to exact political netnibution again the whistleblowen. So I would, again, unge caution to both counsel and the witness to avoid anything that pnesents that nisk. MR. CASTOR: question is it lust so I'm clean, the objection nelated to that on is letter answening the nelated to executive pnivilege? it is beyond scope of his testimony. His subpoena is related to his letten. MS. VAN GELDER: My deposition it to does not nelate objection, to who Vindman spoke to His about a call. MR. CASTOR: Okay. BY MR. CASTOR: L2 15 I ask whethen you know on don't know, because if you don't know, then this kind of ends this. MS. VAN GELDER: I think that if the way that -- sonny -- the way the state of the play night now is do you know if he talked to anybody t7 about this? 13 L4 15 a Can 20 in the counse of his official In his official duties, the people he's supposed to be talking to. MS. VAN GELDER: And he said he may have. He has no finsthand 2L knowledge. 22 youn answen. 18 19 23 24 25 MR. CASTOR: I assume MR. CASTOR: that Lieutenant Vindman preceded us and you have Okay. I'm just asking doesn't know, that would be the the witness knows. If he answen. talk about UNCLASS I FIED MS. VAN GELDER: We can if this laten, Mn. Caston. I UNCLASS 7 neally am not tnying to -- I'm not tnying to -- 2 MR. CASTOR: 3 MS. VAN GELDER: 4 can I've wonked with you befone, I undenstand. We talk later. MR. CASTOR: Do you know 5 6 7t I EIED communications if Lieutenant Colonel Vindman had with any State Depantment officials like MS. VAN GELDER: We'ne not going 7 8 had convensations with. 9 MR. CASTOR: Okay. Can I talk Geonge Kent? about anybody Mn. Vindman ask him about his convensations with 10 Mn. Vindman, on Colonel Vindman? 11 MS. VAN GELDER: You may. My instnuction, again, not by the t2 White House, not by anyone. My instnuction based on my neading 13 applicable count documents, which L4 Myens is a question-by-question MR. CASTOR: Fain 15 wene neven cited which ls U.S. v. basis. enough. Just to be clean, like 16 to get around these things 77 oun houn. And we will and of the I want get as much infonmation as to tny we can in 18 BY MR. CASTOR: 19 Did you have any communication with Colonel Vindman about the 20 2t 22 23 24 25 call? A Yes. a How many? A I r-- I can't necall precisely, but A Okay. What do you nemember about youn communications Colonel Vindman about the call? UNCLASS ] EIED with UNCLASS I L 2 off the necond.] MR. MORRISON: Alex and I spoke about the prepanation of the IDiscussion 3 package and what we believed needed 4 as possible? 7 8 9 10 to be done make the package a Did Colonel Vindman expness any concenns to you about what happened on A a A the call? Yes. What wene his concenns? He had two namely. He was concenned, as 11 did not get into the subject matten we had hoped. L2 about the 13 T4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2t a I was, that the call And he had concenns fidelity of the tnanslation. And pnepanation that of the communication occunned duning MEMCON the counse of the package? A That communication did, yes. a Okay. Did you have any subsequent communications with him? A Yes. a And what's the next time you nememben whene he naised content of the call? concenns about the subject of the call IDiscussion off the necond.] MR. MORRISON: Could you repeat youn question? BY MR. CASTOR: 22 23 as tnue BY MR. CASTOR: 5 6 72 FIED a What's the next time you with Colonel 24 Vindman, on emailing 25 have had about what happened on nememben talking to Mn. -- Colonel Vindman about any concenns he might the call? UNCLASS I EIED 73 UNCLASS I FIED 1 A About concenns he had about what happened on the call? 2 a yes. 3 A That was the only time 4 the content of the call. Did you have any othen communications with him about a Okay. 5 6 the call? 7 A Yes. 8 a And what wene those? 9 MS. VAN GELDER: You're not going to talk about that. BY MR. CASTOR: 10 a 11 L2 I necall him expnessing concenns about Taylon Colonel Vindman on the Was call you had with Ambassador ? 13 A No. L4 a And was that unusual? Like, to if you wene going of othen countnies in to have a pontfolio, 15 with the 16 you ondinanily, t7 directon with nesponsibility fon that country on that call? ambassadon 18 A 19 assignment. 20 been on one in the negulan counse of At this point I had been youn call would youn duties, include the -- at this point, I was 10 days in the office fon maybe 4 days, in to the this because I had 2l first week. And so, I don't know that thene was an ondinany at this point. It was my decision to have the convensation 22 one on one 23 24 25 tnavel the with a Okay. Vindman Ambassador Taylon. Did you give a neadout ? A Yes. UNCLASS ] F]ED of that call to CoIoneI UNCLASS 1 2 3 74 I FIED a Okay. And what do you nememben nelating to Colonel Vindman? A lust that I bniefed BilI. Bill was concerned and that was -- that was effectively -- and it was a brief neadout. 7 a Okay. Did Colonel Vindman expness concenns that he wasn't on the call with you? A He may have. a Okay. In -- we'll get into Ambassadon Sond1and, youn 8 expenience 4 5 6 9 10 77 t2 13 14 15 15 L7 with him. A Yes. a When was the finst time you met him? A JuIy 10. a And was that befone on aften Dn. Hill had nelated to you hen expeniences A a with the Ambassadon? Aften. And did you communications with A I don't -- subsequent Ambassadon Sondland? regulan, because that speaks to know about 18 peniodicity. But I had it 19 convensation with Gondon. 20 2L 22 23 24 25 to that, did you have negulan was not uncommon fon me to have a a Did he nelate to you that he speaks to the Pnesident A Yes. a -- with some fnequency? A I don't know that he spoke to the fnequency. a Okay. But it was youn undenstanding that, in his own mind, he believed he had a 1ot of convensations with the Pnesident? UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS 1 A Yes. 2 a And thene ane times is relating he 4 you by Ambassadon Sondland? 6 7 8 9 10 A a Ambassadon infonmation you conveyed 3 5 in 75 I F]ED to Taylon's statement him that whene was conveyed to Yes. And to the best of Ambassadon Taylon what you youn knowledge, you wene nelating to believe Ambassadon Sondland nelated to you? A Yes. a And but you'ne not able to evaluate whethen -Ambassadon Sondland was telling what you was accunate? 16 A Connect. a Did you have any concenns that anything Ambassadon Sondland was telling you may have been exaggerated on inaccunate? A Yes. a And why is that? A Fiona's -- Dn. Hill's admonitions and my own nead of L7 Ambassadon Sondland's sense 11 t2 13 14 15 18 19 20 2L 22 a Okay. Do you of think that he was saying, on do you think A I self-impontance. Ambassadon Sondland that believed what he exaggenated intentionally? believed that Ambassador Sondland believed what he was saying. a Okay. But if he was nelating something that may have 23 in the exaggenation categony, you know, he may have just 24 misintenpreted 25 fallen ? A I -- I believe that Ambassadon Sondland believed what he was UNCLASS I E]ED UNCLASS ] 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 t7 L2 13 telling me is a Okay. with the A a is he what He nelated 76 FIED what he thought occunned. to you a number of communications he had Pnesident? Yes. And is thene any way to know whethen he was actually talking to the President? A Yes. a Okay. And you believe he was? A I was not able to confinm eveny time he said he talked to the Pnesident, but I did so as often as I had the time to do. a okay. And wene thene times when he to the President, when you came A No. a I want to dinect indicated he was talking to learn he was not? 15 to -THE CHAIRMAN: Counsel, if I could, I have got to go up to the floon to speak on the resolution on the impeachment pnocess. If thene t7 ane any disputes about whethen questions ane appropniate on not 18 appropniate, on should or should not be answened, we can hold those 19 into abeyance until I L4 15 netunn. Okay. I will try to stay out of 20 MR. CASTOR: 21. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank 22 23 your attention any of those aneas. you, Counsel. BY MR. CASTOR: a I'd like you to tunn youn attention to Ambassadon Taylor's 24 statement that you nefenenced, page 9, the penultimate panagnaph, 25 concenns have -- about midway thnough the penultimate panagnaph: UNCLASS I FIED my My 77 UNCLASS L concerns deepened the next day sentence. Ambassadon 2 Taylon is nelating a telephone convensation 3 with you on on about August 22nd. 4 be a change 5 you nesponded, 6 necollection, accurate? A a 7 8 9 I FIED He asked you whether thene would in policy in stnong suppont of Uknaine, to which he nelates, It nemains to be seen. That's to the best of What youn A else do you nememben of that convensation and what you Ambassadon Taylon? So it was not uncommon duning in with each othen, this the issues check t2 sync'd on was the timeline fon oun pnocess 13 and whethen on not thene's any neason 74 yet among peniod fon we wanted 11 to have Bill to ensune the aid neleased, to believe the Uknainians t7 about the hold? A To the best of my knowledge, and of 20 believed they wene yet awane of hold. 22 my convensations with the best of Ambassadon Taylon and my knew necollection I, neither one of us a Okay. And duning this time peniod, did you have a hope that the aid would be neleased? 24 A a 25 neleased 23 had become awane 19 27 to we wene 1.6 18 I and of the ho1d. a Okay. And at that point in time, acconding to youn statement, you didn't -- you wenen't awane that the Ukrainians 15 had Yes. nelated to 10 he Yes. And did you have an expectation that, in fact, ? UNCLASS] FIED it would be UNCLASS 1 2 3 78 IEIED A Expectation? The best I could say is I had a hope. a Okay. Just genenally, what ane the Pnesident's views on foneign aid? 10 A He doesn't -a Does he have some skepticism about it? A Yes. a Okay. I think I may have been talking oven -- did you say he doesn't like it? A Genenally, he does not. a And when foneign aid is going to a countny like Uknaine that 11 has a negional significance, and thene's othen L2 negion, does the Pnesident often want oun allies to also step up thein 13 aid contnibutions? 4 5 6 7 8 9 L4 A Without going on it, I of oun allies in the would argue Uknaine's significance 18 is beyond the negion, but, yes, he would like to See a Eunopean country more supponted mone supponted by Eunopeans. a Okay. If the aid wene to be penmanently, you know, not released, he1d, not neleased, thene would have to be a pnocess of 19 nescission on nepnognamming. 15 16 17 20 21 took any affinmative steps 23 pnocess 25 connect? A That's my undenstanding. a Do you know if any officials at OMB or DOD, State Department 22 24 Is that to begin the nescission on nepnogramming ? A At this time, thene was a paraIIeI foneign aid nescission pnocess. It was neponted that we were considening $4 billion in UNCLASS I FIED 1 79 I FIED UNCLASS foneign aid nescissions. a A 2 3 Okay. To my knowledge, thene was no pnocess even undentaken to seek 4 a neprognamming of the Defense Depantment on State Depantment funds. 5 a Okay. Was the nescission effont even neLated to the Uknaine 6 7 8 9 funds ? A of the funds that would have been included in the nescission package, as it has been nelated to the pness, would have touched on funds that could have gone to Uknaine. Some t2 a A a 13 MR. GoLDMAN: Did you say $4 L4 MR. MORRISON: $4 1.0 11 Could have gone? Yes. Okay. a Retunning to Ambassadon 18 Pnesident doesn't want 20 2T 22 23 24 25 A a A page 9 of Ambassadon to pnovide told -- Taylon's statement. told him that the any assistance at all? Taylon nelates that you 77 19 billion. BY MR. CASTOR: 15 16 million? you Yes. And can you help me understand what that meant? to foneign aid, as well as his concenn that the Uknainians wene not paying thein fain shane, as well as his concern when oun aid would be misused because of the view that Uknaine has a significant connuption pnoblem. a Okay. In youn mind, ane the lavelins sepanate fnom the The Pnesident's genenal antipathy UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS I L 80 FlED secunity assistance funds? A 2 Yes. 5 0kay. And wene the lavelins in play -- the funds fon the lavelins in play at this time? A So the Javelins, to the best of my knowledge, have always 6 occunned thnough foneign 3 4 a militany sales 7 a Okay. 8 A -- which is a sepanate a Okay. A Yes. 9 10 pnocess entinely. Sepanate process from USAI? 13 at the time of youn ca]I with Ambassadon Taylon, August 22nd, it was the USAI funds that wene A No. Thene were two pots of money, which is why I don't T4 typicalty 15 secton assistance, because secunity assessments -- assistance has L6 lawful meaning. Thene wene Defense Depantment funds and State L7 Depantment funds that 18 been appnopriated by 11 t2 a a 19 20 speak about secunity wene included the $445 million that Ambassadon Taylon had what Vindman? alneady answened this. I on or about July 28th and 24 a I'm sonny. I'm talking A 0h. 25 a 23 within the a Congness. the call to Colonel A I believe I've with assistance. I speak about secunity Okay. Did you -- aften the cal1, did you nelate happened on 2L 22 And youn understanding had a conversation I pnovided about the August calI. My bad. UNCLASS I F]ED 81 UNCLASS I EIED t 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 74 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 A I -- I don't necall specifically, but it was my pnactice to pnovide my team with readouts a OkaY. A -- of those kinds of things. a Okay. But Colonel Vindman, was he on the call with you? A I don't believe so. a Was Colonel Vindman on any calls with you that you did with Ambassadon Taylon duning this nelevant time peniod? A Yes. WeII, so, please define the nelevant time peniod. a Fnom luly 15th thnough Septemben 25th. A And about the topic of this inquiny? a yes. A No. a Okay. complain Did Colonel Vindman expness concenn that he wasn't allowed to be on the to you on caI1, any of these calls? A Yes. a Okay. And how often did he raise that concenn to you? A Once on twice. a Okay. And what was youn neason fon doing the call without Colonel Vindman? A The natune of the convensation. a OkaY. A The subject matten of the convensation. a Okay. It had nothing to do with youn tnust in Colonel Vindman ? UNCLASS ] FIED UNCLASS I A I 1 had two motivations to do my best to pnotect this issue, the concerns that I 2 from 3 the Washington's political environment. my concenns about 4 a Uh-huh. 5 A And 5 7 8 LL off the necond.] MR. MORRISON: I had concerns about Lieutenant j udgment Colonel Vindman's . BY MR. CASTOR: a A Judgment Among with nespect to what? the discussions I had with Dn. Hill in the tnansition its stnengths and its weaknesses. And Fiona was oun team, my team, 13 and othens had raised concenns about 15 weighed out about -- 12 L4 my personnel IDiscussion 9 10 82 FIED a something Alex's judgment. Okay. Did you ever have any concenns that he might leak ? 16 A No. L7 a Did anyone even bning concenns to you that they believed 18 Colonel Vindman may have leaked something? 19 A Yes. 20 a Would you te11 us about that? 21 MS. VAN GELDER: That 22 is outside the scope. MR. CASTOR: How many instances of that 23 MS. VAN GELDER: 24 but he's not going to 25 Again, we can talk about this during the bneak, answen it. MR. CASTOR: Okay. UNCLASS I EIED UNCLASS BY MR. CASTOR: 1 a 2 3 fnom Wene thene any othen things that Colonel Vindman was excluded that he naised to A a 4 5 6 83 IF]ED youn attention, that he felt excluded? Could you nestate the question? talere there any othen things Colonel Vindman was excluded fnom that he bnought to youn attention? 13 A I'm only going to speak within the scope of this inquiny, and the answen is yes. a Okay. And what was that, in the scope of the inquiny? A I took steps eanly on to attempt to pnotect my people fnom being dnagged into this process -- what I expected would become a pnocess. And when I saw that thene was a pnocess that was going to happen, I took steps to ensune that neither myself non they would L4 subsequently be accused 7 8 9 10 11 t2 15 L6 L7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 of coondinating testimony. a Okay. And when did you implement that pnocess? A Sometime in August. a Did you nelate that to Colonel Vindman? A No. a And did he come ask you why he felt excluded from centain things ? A Yes. a And what did you tell him in nesponse to that? A It was my judgment as to the needs of the mission. a Okay. And did he push back? Did he take his concenns to any other authonities? UNCLASS I FIED 84 UNCLASS I EIED A He pushed back. I can't speak to the latten. a Okay. So you don't know if he went to Dr. Kuppenman on 1 2 3 anybody else A I can't sPeak to -a Did Dn. Kuppenman on anybody else, lohn Eisenbeng even come 4 5 6 to you and nelate 7 topic that I A Not 9 a okay. 10 Do L2 that were nelated to them by Vindman on this ? 8 t\ concenns you know whethen Colonel Vindman even had access he wasn't supposed A can recall. to see? Not finsthand. UNCLASS ] FIED to infonmation UNCLASS L 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 L4 15 16 L7 18 It@:@9 a.m.l BY MR. CASTOR: a But you have secondhand infonmation about that? A It was bnought to my attention that some had -- some of my pensonnel had concenns that he did. a Okay. How was it bnought to youn attention? A In penson and by email. a Okay. And how many people ane in youn team? MS. VAN GELDER: I don't know who -BY MR. CASTOR: a I'm not going to ask. I just want to know how many people ane on the team. . A At the time, it was maybe f a Okay. Any concenns about his handling of classified infonmation naised to you? A In what sense? a Did anyone bning concerns to you that they wene -- they had issues with the way he was handling classified infonmation? 19 MS. VAN GELDER: With nespect 20 MR. CASTOR: With nespect 27 MS. VAN GELDER: He 22 MR. CASTOR: 23 85 I FIED mattens subject won't to to the Uknalnian investigation? anything. answen anything outside the scope. Okay. With nespect to the Ukrainian -- with the to this inquiry. 24 MR. MORRISON: Could you nepeat 25 MR. CASTOR: Did anyone the question? bring concenns to you about how they UNCLASS I FIED 86 UNCLASSlFIED L 2 3 believed Colonel Vindman was handling classified infonmation? MS. VAN GELDER: hJith nespect Pnesident the States? BY MR. CASTOR: 4 5 of the United to the Uknainian calls with a Yes. 13 A Not that I can necall. a Okay. The luly L0th meeting that Mn. Goldman asked you about in the finst nound A Yeah. a -- this was a meeting involving Ambassadon Sondland, Volken, Ambassadon Bolton, and some Ukrainian officials, Danylyuk and A My only undenstanding is what I -- my only awareness of the meeting is what was nelated to me in the -- by Ambassador Taylon's 1.4 statement 6 7 8 9 10 tt L2 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2T 22 23 24 25 a Okay. the question So I think when Mn. Goldman was asking was whethen Dn. Hill nelated you about that, to you A I don't necall that she did. a And I guess, I just wanted to follow up and ask whether anybody else that was in that meeting told you about it? A I have no necollection of that. a Okay. So youn only knowledge of the meeting comes via open-sounce infonmation, neponts, pness reports? A From Ambassadon Taylor's statement. a Okay. And pness nePonts? A I'm sure I read pness neponts about how Ambassadon Taylon's UNCLASS I FIED 87 UNCLASS L I FIED statement has been, you know, was neponted on publicly. a Okay. At any point fnom July L5th thnough Septemben 11th, 2 3 did anyone in the counsel's office, Mn. Eisenbeng, MP. E1}is, 4 communications 5 developed involving Ambassadon Sondland? with you about this altennative channel that 7 A a 8 MS. VAN GELDER: He's 6 9 10 pnesenve had Yes. And what wene those concerns? talking to legal counsel. I can only the pnivilege, and so I would say that attonney-client pnivilege. MR. CASTQR: 11 have Okay. He it's tnaditional will not discuss that. You discuss a sepanate pnocess that chiefly of these bilatenal effonts. t2 involved Sondland nelating to 13 else can you teII us that L4 pnocess? Was it pnincipally Sondland led on Volken led on Giuliani 15 led some was youn undenstanding of the sepanate ? MR. MORRISON: 16 It was principally Sondland Ied, based on !7 intenactions with Ambassador Sondland and his netelling to 18 issues. me my of these I would noutinely infonm Ambassador Taylon about my convensations 19 20 with 2t nelating to 22 I 23 What Ambassadon Sondland when me had neason I felt that Ambassador a convensation he had with the Ukrainian to believe 0n occasion, when Ambassadon Taylon was Sondland was official that not aware of. talking to Ambassadon Taylon, he would nelate 24 to me that he was involved in text 25 Sondland. I believe Bill would messages teII UNCLASS me I FIED with Kunt, with Ambassadon that sometimes Mr. Giuliani 88 UNCLASSI FIED t was on these 2 concern to both of MR. CASTOR: 3 4 text messages. This cornespondence our time is up. was us. I lale want to I pivot to Mr. Ratcliffe befone 12 minutes, I think, left in oun nound. make sune have about 5 MR. RATCLIFFE: Thank you, Steve. 6 Mr. Mornison, is lohn Ratcliffe. I just 7 8 9 a matter of my name have a couple questions fon you. to stant with what you addnessed a little bit earlien neganding chain of command and what I heand you say eanlier. I want You undenstand 10 that Colonel Vindman went to the National Secunity 11 Council lead legal counsel to nepont his concenns about the luly 25th L2 ca1I, connect? I did not at the time. I do now. MR. RATCLIFFE: I want to -- and is it youn understanding that MR. MORRISON: 13 L4 15 he did so shontly aften the July 25th call? MR. MORRISON: Based on what has been neponted 16 77 I don't have firsthand knowledge and 18 MR. RATCLIFFE: And when 19 MR. MORRISON: 20 can't vouch pub1ic1y, of which for its venacity, did you leann that he had done yes. so? Within the past week on 2 when pnepaning fon today's pnoceeding. MR. RATCLIFFE: 2L of Okay. So is youn issue with you said something that, as you talked to the effect of, quote, 22 about chain 23 unfontunate but not unusual. 24 Youn 25 the concenn, it's that as his dinect nepont, he didn't keep you infonmed command, I want to make sune the record's clean. issue is not that he didn't on shouldn't have the UNCLASS I FIED ability to repont UNCLASS 1 89 ] F]ED of his concenn? MR. MORRISON: 2 HlIl's Unfontunate but not unusual was within the context style, was diffenent than mine, that 3 of 4 had allowed hen team 5 not unusual that hen team would undentake steps of which she was not 6 fully witting. Fiona management to take on unfontunate pnactices. MR. RATCLIFFE: But 7 I guess what And so it I'm saying is, you'ne not she was hene 8 assenting that he didn't have the night to nepont a concenn on a pnoblem 9 that he had to the National Security Council's lead 1egal counsel, 10 connect ? f'm saying that 11 MR. M0RRISON: t2 MR. RATCLIFFE: 13 Okay. I'm not saying that. Veny c1eanly, you do have a diffenence of opinion with Colonel Vindman with nespect to what was heand on the July call. 16 I think, speaks veny cleanly to this issue on page foun, whene you say, negarding that July 25th ca1l, "I want to be clean: I was not concenned that anything illegal was discussed. " 17 I L4 r.5 25th nead Youn statement, that cornectly? 18 MR. MORRISON: You 19 MR. RATCLIFFE: did. Okay. And then in followup to that, in questions 20 fnom Mn. Caston, he asked you whethen on not you thought anything 2t impnopen on illegal had happened, and youn nesponse was no. 22 MR. MORRISON: Conrect. 23 MR. RATCLIFFE: CoIoneI Vindman, on 24 that 25 that a foneign he was concenned and the othen hand, testified that he did not think it govennment was propen investigate a U.S. citizen. UNCLASS I FIED to demand UNCLASS I As you listened 7 90 FIED to the caII, did you hean Pnesident Trump make 3 of President Zelensky to investigate a foreign citizen? MR. MORRISON: I did NOt. 4 MR. RATCLIFFE: A U.S. CitiZCN. 5 MS. VAN GELDER: Thank 5 MR. RATCLIFFE: 7 So 2 a demand that the I necond want you, counsel. to make sune is clean, if I said that. you did not hean Pnesident Tnump make 77 to investigate a U.S. citizen? MR. MORRISON: To be clean, I did not fully undenstand this subject matten at the time, the CnowdStrike issue, these issues. I only had a confinmatony necognition that this was what Dn. Hill had t2 bniefed 8 9 10 a demand on a foneign government me on in oun handover. 13 MR. RATCLIFFE: t4 But in talking about concenns that Colonel Vindman had that UNdCNStOOd. illegal was done, as I heand youn testimony 15 something impnoper on 16 eanlien, you said that you did have a discussion with him L7 expressed his concenns. You 18 call 19 to that, and two, the fidelity of the tnanslation. MR. MORRISON: YCS. 27 MR. RATCLIFFE: You 23 24 25 that identified two, the subject matten of the negarding Uknainian nefonm genenally and the President's appnoach 20 22 whene he something iIlega1 did not say that he expressed on impnopen had occunned to you concenn that should be neponted to the National Security Council's lead legal counsel. MR. MORRISON: I have no necollection of him doing so. MR. RATCLIFFE: Is that something, as his dinect nepont, UNCLASS I FIED you 91 UNCLASS I EIED 1 to do if would have expected him 2 MR. MORRISON: YCS. 3 MR. RATCLIFFE: And you would have 4 MR. MORRISON: Yes. 5 MR. RATCLIFFE: 0n page 6 "I 7 neview that concenn? he had five of a recollection if he did youn statement today, you say, have no neason to believe the Ukrainians had any knowledge 8 until August 28th, 2019." Did I nead that cornectly? 9 MR. MORRISON: You MR. RATCLIFFE: And by neview, what do you 11 MR. MORRISON: L2 mean mean? the pnocess I was dinected by Dn. Kupperman to initiate. 13 MR. RATCLIFFE: That nelated L4 MR. MORRISON: Related 15 of the did. 10 I so? to what? to the secunity-secton assistance to Ukraine. 16 MR. RATCLIFFE: t7 MR. MORRISON: Okay. I'd 18 I apologize. I'm a bit 19 MR. RATCLIFFE: No 20 we're talking about the The secunity assistance on militany aid? pnefen the term "secunity-secton assistance. " ana}. apologies necessary. same I just want to make sune thing. 23 in shont, youn testimony today is consistent with what Ambassadon Taylon testified to me unden oath, which was that the Uknainians had no knowledge that any secunity assistance might be 24 withheld until anound August 28th, 2L 22 25 So 2019. That's inconsistent with what Colonel UNCLASS I FIED Vindman told us yestenday UNCLASS L in his testimony. THE CHAIRMAN: 3 MR. RATCLIFFE: 4 THE CHAIRMAN: 5 Counsel, Thene thene a question fon the witness? is. of other witnesses I'11 get to my question. -- and making nepnesentations about whethen MR. RATCLIFFE: 7 THE CHAIRMAN: 9 is mid-August Because you'ne neading testimony 6 8 testified that in He 2 92 IF]ED they'ne conflicting on not conflicting. MR. RATCLIFFE: I'11 get to my question, you, counsel. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank 11 MR. RATCLIFFE: YOU bct. L2 If Colonel Vindman neceived light 13 concenned about the withholding 74 in mid-August, is that MR. MORRISON: YES. 15 MR. RATCLIFFE: quenies fnom Uknainians of secunity assistance something 15 Chainman. that he should on militany aid have reponted L7 Is that something that he neponted to MR. MORRISON: I have no necollection of that. 18 MR. RATCLIFFE: And 19 if he 20 MS. VAN GELDER: Do you want 2t MR. RATCLIFFE: ThAt WAS it. 22 MR. MORRISON: the question? 24 MS. VAN 25 MR. RATCLIFFE: GELDER: you? you? did not, would you considen that to an issue where he was not acting within the chain 23 to to of be command? complete the sentence? I'm sonny, Congnessman. Could you please nepeat I wish he was, but he's not. I'm what? UNCLASS I FIED You are. 93 1 2 MS. VAN GELDER: You UNCLASS I F]ED ane. ahead. I thought you wene the Go attonney. he's a 3 MR. MORRISON: No, 4 MR. CASTOR: No, he's 5 MS. VAN GELDER: I'm so sonny. 6 7 8 9 10 IL L2 Congnessman. Congnessman John Blame Ratcliffe. the attonney, not the witness. it as a compliment. MR. RATCLIFFE: They'ne so rare, it's just I can't MR. GOLDMAN: Take anymore, to be honest with you. THE CHAIRMAN: counsel. necognize them He is I made the same mistake in nefenning to my colleague. MR. RATCLIFFE: My question was, should -- if thene wene quenies fnom the Uknainian Govennment on Ukrainian L4 Vindman about 15 in mid-August, is that something he should have reported to the withholding of secunity assistance on militany aid 16 MR. MORRISON: Yes. L7 MR. RATCLIFFE: He 18 MR. MORRISON: 19 MR. RATCLIFFE: And 21. light officials to Colonel 13 20 him as f did he a violation of the chain of MR. MORRISON: I NOt? have no necollection if you? of him doing so. did not, would you considen that to be command? would considen 22 picked up fnom his pnion boss. 23 MR. RATCLIFFE: How much 24 MR. CASTOR: Thnee 25 MS. VAN GELDER: Could we have it to be an unfortunate time do we have? minutes. UNCLASS Two minutes, sonny. a bneak aften? I FIED habit he UNCLASST L THE CHAIRMAN: YCS. 2 MR. NUNES: Mn. Monnison, this also, but in 3 on 4 between 5 you 6 7 8 -- nespect I think Mn. Ratcliffe has a followup to the senvers, you said that Fiona HiI1, JuIy 1st and July 15th, bnought up senvers to you. I think what wene you refenning to? I did not know at the time. I necall googling Bunisma. I did not recalI googling on othenwise looking into any of the nest of this. MR. MORRISON: Congressman, MR. NUNES: But you 9 I MR. MORRISON: 11 MR. NUNES: But you senvens wene, what to be honest, said that she had mentioned senvens to you. had 10 t2 94 FIED a necollection, Y€s, don't -- she didn't Congnessman. expand on what those that might be? 13 MR. MORRISON: No, L4 handoven, and they wene sin. tlle had a limited amount of time on the sort of, be awane of this bucket. I'm just tnying to figune out why she would mention 15 MR. NUNES: 16 to you something about t7 I 18 anything else from that time peniod fnom those convensations? 19 20 mean, I know you senvens and how she would know about senvens. don't know, but she didn't -- can you necollect MR. MORRISON: Congnessman, pnocess, the pnocess, it was very much a thene is this this is the subject matter, stay away. 2t MR. NUNES: Did she mention CrowdStnike? 22 MR. MORRIS0N: 23 MR. NUNES: Steve. BY MR. CASTOR: 24 25 I don't necall that, sin. a And just to be clean befone we Lose oun UNCLASSI FIED -- oun time is up, 95 UNCLASS ] FIED 1 the cincumstances of you leaving the National Secunity Council, you'ne 2 not nesigning in pnotest? 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A a A No. Nobody's asking you to leave? No. a You'ne leaving on youn own tenms? A Yes. a It's just a simple coincidence that your depantune hene is nelated to youn congnessional testimony temporally? 10 A 11 MR. CASTOR: Okay. L2 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Okay. We'II take a bneak. I would like to keep the bneak shont, if I 13 coming up, so 74 hopefully get you out eanlien. Wou1d 5 15 MR. MORRISON: I 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Let's L7 18 We'11 nesume We have some votes at 10:35, can, and we'11 on 10 minutes be sufficient? can be fasten, sin. make it a 5-minute bneak then. and we'11 resume pnomptly. IRecess. ] UNCLASS I FIED 96 UNCLASS I EIED t ItO:40 a.m.l 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Going back on 3 Mr. Monnison, I just want to 4 covened, and then 5 the I'1] hand it the record. go oven a few back to Mn. of the aneas that we've Goldman to go funthen through chnonology. 7 I think you testified eanlien that one of the concenns that Dn. Hill raised with you befone you took youn position was this 8 innegulan channel, and that inregulan channel involved issues nelating 9 to 6 Bunisma or 2Ot6. Is that right? MR. MORRISON: 10 It was, Chainman, genenallyr Y€Sr it it was chiefly view, did not 11 a concenn about L2 neally belong in Uknaine policy. And, yes, she naised these issues 13 that she said were being wonked T4 a concenn to Ambassadon Sondland, who, on was oun in this alternate channel that wene hen. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: And why were 76 MR. M0RRISON: As I recall they a concenn to hen relating to hen? me, hen concenns wene 18 just about the specific this is 19 necall these ane these issues that I 20 tried to 2L necall of one on two handoff convensations befone I fonmally took oven. L7 I don't necall a howthey could be used on anything like that. I just about the issues themselves. convey something knew that I didn't absonb. THE CHAIRMAN: Was she concenned 22 nothing about. So maybe she that 23 naising of this bucket of issues anound 24 odds 25 the And that was what I Ambassadon Sondland's 2OL6 or Bunisma might be at with U.S. policy vis-i-vis Uknaine on cause pnoblems in tenms of advancement of the official U.S. policy? UNCLASS] FIED 97 UNCLASS I 1 MR. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: 3 No, MORRISON: FIED sin. I don't necall that. What do you necaI1 about why she was concerned about it? it Again, Chainman, MR. MORRISON: 4 of was that this was -- the chief involved and that this was occunning 5 concenns wene sont 6 outside of the regulan pnocess. But, again, 7 the finst time I can consciously necall heaning about these issues, 8 and I neally just didn't I was -- this was pnobably even know what they wene. if you wou1d, I think you testified the lines of wanting to avoid the whole Bunisma bucket THE CHAIRMAN: And nemind me, 9 10 earlien along 11 of issues? MR. MORRISON: t2 13 who was way to descnibe I was admonished I it. -- Dr. Hill to stay was advised by did that "admonished" may be the wnong Like sensible advice to 14 THE CHAIRMAN: And 15 MR. MORRISON: Based on having no knowledge seem away. of what they you? wene 18 until I necall walking out into the hal1 and googling Bunisma, I took it onboand. And the way I necall pnocessing it was when I went out and I googled "What is Bunisma?" and I saw Hunten Biden, I said, okay, 19 yeah, 16 t7 20 that sounds night, I'11 stay ,Iry. THE CHAIRMAN: And you could undenstand, because 21. Hunten Biden and Joe Biden was nunnlng 22 be a pnoblematic anea? MR. MORRISON: 24 THE CHAIRMAN: And you wene listening involved fon Pnesident, that this could Generally, yes. 23 25 it so when this came up to Pnesident Tnump and UNCLASS I F]ED in the convensation as Pnesident Ze1ensky, and the UNCLASS I 1 Pnesident bnought up 2 what Dn. Hill MR. MORRISON: YCS. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: And 5 she expnessed and 6 Bunisma was and to the July was this was a nealization of the concenns that that you would laten fonm when you looked up what the association with the MR. MORRISON: We1l, 7 the Bidens, You necognized that this had wanned about? 3 8 and 2@L6 98 FIED sin, I Bidens? had looked up what Bunisma was pnior 25 cal1. THE CHAIRMAN: COTTECt. 9 MR. MORRISON: 10 It was more -- in heaning the caI1, it was langely 13 that thene reaIly -- okay, thene's something going -- thene is something here. I was awane that Ambassador Sondland had bniefed the Pnesident that monning by this point, pen his email, t4 which t\ 72 15 confinmatony eanlien. So it was mone a neflection that, Fiona was night, thene is this panaIIeI pnocess. I nefenenced THE CHAIRMAN: And 16 t7 Bunisma and leanned 18 of the fnom 2t 22 23 Dr. Hill pant expnessed? I centainly took onboand, yeah, I want to stay away this. THE this I think you said that when you did look into of the Biden connection, you shared at least MR. MORRISON: 19 20 concenns okay, and CHAIRMAN: And so did it concern you when the President naised that the Pnesident wasn't staying away fnom this? MR. MORRISON: Sin, it was more 24 the focus of the call should be. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: So you wene that it was not what I thought not concenned that Pnesident UNCLASS I FIED Tnump 99 UNCLASS I EIED 1 asked Pnesident Zelensky 2 President, only that it way. I neca1l might leak? Sin, f'm not sure I neca1l the convensation the MR. MORRISON: 3 to look into a Democnatic candidate fon that to look into the Vice President's he asked him 4 same 5 son, not the Vice Pnesident. I'm not trying 6 tnying to necall the convensation. THE 7 CHAIRMAN: Let me, foun, "The othen to be cute. I'm just if I cou1d, nead that language to you. thing, thene's a fot of talk about Biden's 8 page 9 that Biden stopped the pnosecution. And a 0n son, lot of people want to find 10 out about that, so whateven you can do with the attonney genenal would 11 be gneat. 12 so lf Biden went anound bnagging you could look You undenstood 13 to nefen into it. It that he stopped the pnosecution, sounds honnible to me." that aften nefenning to Biden's son he then goes to loe Biden. That's the Biden he's nefenning to about 74 on r.5 stopping the pnosecution, that Biden went bnagging about he stopped 16 the prosecution. You undenstood that he was talking about Joe Biden, 77 candidate fon Pnesident Joe Biden, night? MR. MORRISON: 18 Sin, you ane connect. I did not know what the 19 pnosecution he was nefenning 20 THE CHAIRMAN: So 2t you wene not concenned 22 Zelensky 23 it 24 25 do I to, what that pnosecution was. undenstand youn testimony connectly that Pnesident Tnump was that asking Pnesident to look into a Democnatic candidate fon Pnesident, only that may leak? MR. MORRISON: MEMCON and Sin, I was concenned the subject of the call UNCLASS -- I was concenned that the -- the content of the call could I FIED UNCLASS 1 2 100 I EIED leak. I was concenned that it did not focus as much on what I hoped it would focus on, which was Pnesident Zelensky's nefonm agenda. THE CHAIRMAN: And when 3 the Pnesident naised -- we1l, when Pnesident Tnump naised immediately after 4 immediately 5 Pnesident Zelensky expnessed intenest 6 Pnesident of the United States asked fon a favon and that favon involved 7 looking into the issues that Fiona 8 concenn you? MR. MORRISON: 9 THE CHAIRMAN: 0n1y 11 MR. MORRISON: YCS. t2 THE CHAIRMAN: mentioned Hill mone Javelins, had warned about, and the that didn't NO. 10 13 in buying Did that that might leak? it concern you that Rudy Giuliani was in the call with Pnesident Zelensky? t4 MR. MORRISON: 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Only 16 MR. MORRISON: NO. that that might leak? L7 being mentioned I don't know if I was concenned that Mr. Giuliani in the call would leak. I don't know that I was 18 concenned about that. THE CHAIRMAN: Now, L9 20 you didn't think it was you mentioned in your wnitten testimony that -- that what you listened to was a violation 24 of 1aw. Are you an attorney, Mn. Monnison? MR. MORRISON: I am not admitted to a ban. I do not pnactice. THE CHAIRMAN: And when you went to visit with an attonney night aften this cal}, that is the top attonney at the National Secunity 25 Council, did you ask him whethen this might be a violation of the 27 22 23 UNCLASS I FlED law? 101 UNCLASS I F]ED 1 MS. VAN GELDER: Did you ask him? 2 MR. MORRISON: No. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: And 4 of the prepanation that I think you've said that you wene not awane Ambassadon Sondland on othens may have pnovided 7 to the Pnesident in this othen channel in pnepanation for the call. Is that right? MR. MORRISON: I was awane that thene was a call between 8 Ambassadon Sondland and 9 call did happen. 5 6 10 11 L2 13 the extent of that was in tenms I confirmed that my knowledge. of evaluating the legality of what happened on the caII, you didn't have the advantage of knowing what took place befone the caII, how the Pnesident might have been prepaned fon that call? THE CHAIRMAN: So MR. MORRISON: L4 15 And the Pnesident that monning. to -- as Sin, I did not then and I do not now opine on to the legality. THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Go]dman. L6 BY MR. GOLDMAN: L7 18 a lust one more away fnom the 19 stay 20 testimony, night? thing on this. You said that you wanted to Bunisma bucket of investigations. That was youn 24 A That's what I was advised to do, and that's what I did. a Why did you want to do that? A It did not it was nothing a pant of any -- the pnopen policy pnocess that I was involved in on Uknaine, it had nothing to 25 do with the issues 2t 22 23 that the intenagency UNCLASS IFIED was wonking on. UNCLASS I a So it wasn't a pant of U.S. PoIicY? A ft was not a pant of the formal intenagency policy process. a Okay. Mn. Monnison, befone you came to testify hene today, 7 2 3 4 did you speak to any staff A a 5 6 7 t02 FIED the Republican staff membens fnom No. Did you speak to any Members of Congness about your testimony hene today? A 8 No. 11 a Did you shane youn opening statement with anyone? A No. Othen than counsel, no. a Undenstood. t2 MS. VAN GELDER: And 9 10 13 with for the recond, counsel a 16 In youn July 28th call with 19 20 it BY MR. GOLDMAN: 15 18 has not shaned anyone. 74 L7 hene? A a A a Thank you. I'm sonny, sir, which Ambassador Taylon, the minonity -- date? July 28th. JuIy 28th, okay. Yes. The minonity -- this is on page nine of Ambassadon 22 -- the minonity nefenenced that you said that the call could have been betten. But they didn't nead the nest of the 23 sentence, which says: And that President Tnump had suggested that 24 pnesident Zelensky on his 25 Genenal 2l Taylon's statement William staff meet with Mn. Giuliani Bann. UNCLASS ] FIED and Attonney 103 UNCLASS ] T'IED that the Pnesident of the United States Did you have any concenns L 2 was asking a foneign leaden 3 not a govennment employee? 4 A 5 the question? 6 a So you lost me to meet a litt1e You confinmed bit with his pensonal attonney on the question. that you dld -- that who is Could you repeat Ambassadon Taylon's 7 descniption of youn convensation on July 28th was connect. Is that 8 night ? A It is. 9 Okay. a 10 Ambassadon Taylon says that Pnesident Zetensky on his staff 11 suggested t2 and Attonney Genenal William Barn. L4 asked anothen foneign leader 15 was with Mn. Giuliani to meet with his pensonal attonney who not a U.S. Government official? A No. You 18 a A 19 a And you L7 meet Trump had Did you have any concenns that the President of the United States 13 16 that Pnesident didn't? No. 20 Giuliani 2L nelated 22 U.S. policy? was to didn't have any concerns even though you knew that publicly advocating fon this bucket of investigations Burisma that wene not a pant of the well-settled official 24 A I'm not sune I knew that he was publicly advocating. I did know that Fiona, Dr. Hill, had advised me of this pana1le1 pnocess in 25 which Mn. Giuliani was a pant. 23 UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS I 7 is it a So know that 2 not 3 investigations 5 dinecton A a A a 7 8 9 10 1.7 youn testimony today Giuliani was that as of July 28th you did publicly advocating fon these ? A I have no necollection of that. a And you wene in change of covening Uknaine as the senion 4 5 Rudy 104 FIED in the National Security Council? Fon 13 days. Right. Yes. that you wene going to be for 2 months pnion And you knew to that? A No. I L2 13 Dn. t4 NSC when 15 not clean to Kuppenman on had begun negotiations taking over. I with had planned Ambassadon Bolton at the time to leave the I finished a yean at my then cunnent position. me that we wene going to come to and And it was an agneement on my assuming 20 Hill's nesponsibilities. a Okay. We11, at least as of July 1st, you stanted transitioning in meetings with Dn. Hi11, connect? A Connect. a And at that point you stanted getting up to speed on the 2L countnies within youn new pontfolio? 16 L7 18 79 22 23 Dn. A Connect. a Right. And Dr. Hill 24 channel 25 A that involved Rudy wanned you about Giuliani, connect? Connect. UNCLASS I FIED this altennative 105 FIED UNCLASS ] 2 And so you took no a 1 understand what effonts fnom July 1st until July 25th to this altennative channel nelated to Rudy Giuliani was? 5 A I took ]imited efforts, but I also had a vaniety of other things going on in my pontfolio. a Okay. But it is youn testimony today that as of July 25th 6 you did not know 7 investigations related to Bunisma, Joe and Hunten Biden, 8 election 9 A Connect. 10 a Aften this call -- we1I, 1et 3 4 that Rudy Giuliani was publicly advocating fon and 2016 ? sune. You had two convensations, me go back. I think So I just make t2 with lohn Eisenbeng and Michael Ellis nelated to the call A want to you said, on July 25th 11 13 the Yes. L7 a -- at that time? Did you have any funthen convensations with them in the few days after that nelated dinectly to the phone caII? A Not that I can necaII. a Okay. Did thene come a time when you became awane of a 18 meeting 19 A Yes. 20 a What do you L4 15 16 2L nealtime 22 A 23 24 25 that Mn. Giuliani had with -- when Andney Yermak in Madrid, Spain? did you -- did you leann about that in ? No. a When did you leann about that? A Within the past week or so in neading press pnoceedings. UNCLASS I FIED covenage of these UNCLASS a t So you to -- only hour tny 3 and what you knew pnion So you 5 it 6 necently? 9 10 with 74 mutually agreeable 15 White House 19 20 2L the press reponts pness neponts, okay. this -- weII, I should say, you leanned at the time, on you leanned it fnom press neponts A I think the only do-out I 13 18 an be fnom the July 25th call? L2 L7 fon the next half A Recent1y. a Okay. Wene you awane that it was in the pness at the time? A No. a Okay. What wene your -- did you undenstand youn do-outs to 8 16 to only leanned about fnom pness neponts 7 11 I just -- Iet's just sepanate out what you've l-eanned fnom 2 4 so 106 I FIED Ambassadon Taylon a attempt is I decided to wonk to detenmine dates that would be Pnesident Tnump and President Zelensky fon a visit. And did you have any discussions within the hJhite House about this potential A a A a to to can necall White House visit? Yes. Who did you speak to? Ambassadon Who Bolton, Dn. is that? Kuppenman, Sonny. 23 is the senion dinecton for visits. She handles -- we have a team on the NSC that handles foneign -- foneignens who visit 24 the White House, whether to meet with Ambassador Bolton on to meet with 25 the Pnesident on the Vice Pnesident. And so she was a conduit fon the 22 A She UNCLASS I FIED LO7 UNCLASS 1 schedule pnoposals and the intenface with the Pnesident's schedulers. a 2 3 5 6 7 9 10 LT And what did you understand to be the dinection about whethen on not you should begin 4 8 I FIED to set A a A a We wene A a Pnesident Zelensky. And up a White House seeking a White House that came fnom Ambassadon visit? visit. Bolton? That came fnom the Pnesident. Who did he -- who did you undenstand him to have told that to? And so -- and you had convensations and Dn. Kuppenman about with that as a do-out fnom the Ambassadon Bolton convensation? 15 A I think I -- what I necall telling them is, I'ffi going to put togethen -- we have a schedule pnoposal. Let's move the schedule pnoposal. I think the schedule pnoposal pneceded the Ju1y 25th phone cal1. Let's move the schedule pnoposal. I will work with Ambassadon L6 Taylon L2 13 t4 L7 to a detenmine dates that ane agneeable Okay. 18 IMajority Exhibit No. 19 Was manked 20 to the Uknainians. 2 for identification.l BY MR. GOLDMAN: 22 a I'm going to show you a document that is a bunch of text messages that we'11 mank as exhibit L -- sonry, exhibit 2. And if you 23 could go to page 38 27 24 25 -- A I don't think these ane numbened. a We1l, Bates No. 38, KV38. UNCLASS I EIED 108 UNCLASS A a I 2 3 Excuse me, okay. And if A a 5 to you go two-thinds of the way 4 I F]ED Uh-huh. Now, this is a gnoup text chain with Bill Taylon, and Gondon Sondland. You ane not on 7 othen 8 like 10 17 two: I bad have a sec it. Kunt Volken, But Sondland wnites to the call with Tim, Monday, "Monr" Monday, sounds news. Kunt, call Do you anound about down. 6 9 at 11:19 a.m. It's August 3rd if you have a sec. necall having a convensation with this time about a White A I'm awane that I had a Thanks. Ambassadon'Sondland House meeting? call with him. I'm awane that I had 15 it was an open line, but -- nonsecune 1ine, on Monday, August 5. I don't recall the subject matten, but it was an open 1ine. a Did thene come a time aften the July 25th call when you 15 leanned L2 13 L4 17 18 19 20 a call with him. My recond indicates that the prospect of a White A No. a No? You thought that it House meeting was was on tnack fnom not good? luly 25th to the pnesent day? A Thene came a time when it became clean that the eanliest to meet would be in 2L oppontunity fon the two Pnesidents 22 believe that was Pnesident Zelensky's suggestion, and that'S what 23 scheduled 24 land a White House meeting. 25 for. a Okay. l,rlansaw. I we But we wene in panallel looking fon oppontunities to So you have no idea what Ambassadon Sondland means UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS t here when he says, "sounds 2 3 bad news"? A No, but he also indicates a So, thenefone, you question whethen thene was bad it was a secune call and it was not. 4 5 because he 6 to -- because it may have changed in 2 news days fnom a secune call an open call? A I simply can't know what was in Ambassadon Sondland's mind. a If we could go down to 8/6 at 7:57 a.m., BiIl Taylor wnites: 7 8 9 like 109 IFIED Uknaine nesponded saying on the week aften wonks. The week 10 befone 11 doesn't. t2 hope 13 said, quote, UNGA one of tnip, that they will so the week Septemben 9th But my convensation with Tim on Sunday did not fill me with agnee on a date anytime soon unless, comma, Tim "Gondon Do you necalL 1.4 that they want to plan tunns it anoundr" unquote. that conversation with Ambassadon Taylon on 19 -- on August 5th maybe? Sunday, so I don't know. August 4th, it would have been, acconding to Ambassadon Taylon. A No. In my review of occasions whene I scheduled a call with Ambassadon Taylon, it's possible something -- you know, it didn't wind up getting scheduled, it's just that he called unscheduled. I don't 20 have 15 16 T7 18 2L August 6th that cal1. a We11, do you nememben having a convensation 22 Taylon along the lines 23 descnibed hene? 24 25 A a of whene with Ambassadon the convensation included what he No. Do you necall even giving him any reason that did not fill UNCLASS ] FIED 110 UNCLASS ] FIED r him with hope that the White House would agnee on a date anytime soon? A It's not -- I don't have a clean necollection, but I'm not 2 3 sunprised. 4 Q Why are you not sunPnised? A Because my directonate had a dozen schedule nequests in with 5 G the pnesident fon meetings with foneign teadens that we were looking 7 to land,.and Uknaine was but one. S Q Do you neca]I telling Ambassador Taylor that it was not going 9 tO happen Soon unIeSS, quOte, "GOndOn tunnS it anoundr " unquOte? A No. 10 11 a The next line, Bill Taylor says: "Gondon, you talked to Tim 72 yesterday, right? Is that youn sense, question mank. Panentheses, 13 Tim actually said, quote, "unless Gondon tunns it anound like he did 14 with the phone calI, " unquote. Do you recall saYing that? 15 16 A No. L7 18 19 a Do you dispute that you did say that, if Ambassador Taylon wrote that contemponaneously in this text message with quotation anound manks it? A I have no necollection of that, and I wasn't on the text ZO 27 messages. I can't sPeak to it. 22 a I undenstand. But do you have any recollection of 23 saying -- of thinking that Ambassadon Sondland had played any nole in 24 helping to facilitate the phone call between Pnesident Trump and 25 Pnesident ZelenskY? UNCLASSl FIED UNCLASS A a A Yes. 4 a This was before the 5 about, night? 1 2 3 7 8 told me he did it. luly 25th call that he also told you wheneven he wanted. a 10 11 He did he do that, to youn knowledge? A YeS. a Okay. And did he tell you how he did it? A No. WeII, so he bragged that he could call the Pnesident 6 9 And how 111 ] F]ED Pnesident So you understood that he facilitated it by calling the i 18 A f undenstood that he believed he did. a Okay. But you didn't confinm with the Pnesident -- with the -- you didn't confinm that they did have a convensation? A I wasn't always able to confinm these things. Sometimes I didn't have time. Sometimes I just couldn't find somebody who could confinm it. a Appnoximately how many times over the counse of the JuIy 15th 19 to 20 Sondland 2t and Pnesident Tnump spoke? 12 13 L4 15 16 L7 22 23 24 25 Septemben 1Lth -- time peniod do you necall heaning Ambassador on leanning one way on anothen that Ambassadon Sondland A I can't quantify it exactly, but I a Would you say more than five? A Appnoximately five. a Appnoximately five? UNCLASS ] FIED would say several times. UNCLASS I A Yeah. It's not -- it wouldn't be double digits, but half 1. 2 a dozen, sevenal, something 3 Several. a Okay. 4 5 to 5 The 7 on text this chain: a few. did you even leann in the -- weI1, 1et's go, sorry, at 5:35, which is about two-thinds of the Monnison neady Do you have any thene in that batlpark. Not a couple, not neads fnom Gondon Sondland way down. to Kurt Volken, Bill Taylon is not to get dates as soon as Yenmak confinms. idea what Ambassadon Sondland is refenencing ? 10 A No. LT a Wene 72 So page 42, KV42, 8 9 772 FIED you awane that Ambassadon Sondland was having any communications with Andney Yenmak anound this time? 15 A I'm hesitating to answen because I knew Gondon was having convensations with Uknainian officials. I don't know if I knew befone on aften August 9th, and I don't know that I knew specifically he was 16 talking to Mr. Yenmak. 13 74 23 a A a A a A a 24 July 15th to 25 A L7 18 19 20 2t 22 Wene you talking to any Uknainian officials anound this time? Yes. Who wene you in contact with? The then Uknainian Nationa] Security Advison. Danylyuk? Yes. And appnoximately how Septemben fnequently did you speak with him, fnom 11th, and not when you met Thnee on foun times. UNCLASS I EIED in Wansaw? 113 UNCLASS a A a 1 2 3 4 I FIED Did you even discuss the White House meeting with Not that I So what can necaII. did you know about Ambassadon Sondland's convensations with Uknainians nelated A I don't know that I 5 to a White House meeting? knew he was having conversations with 6 Uknainians about a White House meeting. 7 convensations with Ukrainians. 9 taken 13 t4 became aware of a Govennment in this eanly to mid-August timefname? A Not eanly to mid-August, oo. a When? A I necall Gondon mentioning it 16 when he nelated convensation with Yenmak on 1 Septemben to me his in Warsaw. a Okay. We'11 get to that in a minute. But anound this mid-, 18 to mid-August timefname, you had no knowledge 19 eanly 20 discussion A a A a 21 22 23 24 25 Did thene come a time when you possible statement that was to be neleased by the Ukraine 15 L] knew he was having to discuss as the Bunisma bucket. a Okay. 11 L2 I a Did you undenstand what he was speaking to them about? A I undenstood that he was speaking to them about what I've 8 10 him? be that thene was a of Uknaine issuing a statement? No. Related obviously to the U.S.? No. And what did you undenstand Rudy Giuliani's involvement to in Uknaine mattens in the finst UNCLASS 2 weeks of August? I FIED tL4 IFIED UNCLASS 3 A I'm not sune in the finst 2 weeks of August I knew any specifics about his involvement. I had the supenficial awareness given to me by Dn. Hill, and, of counse, the President suggested that 4 Mn. 5 data points 1 2 Giuliani should a 6 7 8 9 10 11 72 13 should go I go to Uknaine. I think those wene chiefly the two had. When did you leann that the Pnesident suggested Rudy Giuliani to Uknaine? A He said it in the cal}. a He said that he should go to Uknaine or that they should A I think -- weI1, So, fongive me, you're right. That they should meet with him, I believe. a Okay. And did you even follow up as a do-out to detenmine whethen the Uknainian - - any Uknainian officials did meet with Rudy 15 Giuliani punsuant to the Pnesident's request on the July 25th call? A And to be c1ean, in reading the call again, the President L6 asked t7 president Zelensky had mentioned that they' ne hoping that Mn. Giuliani 18 would tnavel t4 19 that he call -- that Mn. Giuliani to Uknaine. a Right. Mn. Giuliani is Yes. 2L A a 22 But just to get back to 20 23 24 25 and Pnesident Zelensky caII. mentioned sevenal times so it's hard to keeP tnack. my question, did you view it as a do-out to tny to help facilitate contact between Mn. Giuliani and Uknaine officials punsuant to the Pnesident's nequest in this call? A No. UNCLASS I FIED 115 UNCLASS a Why not? A Because I did not. a WelI, but ondinanily, right, 1 2 3 visit 4 White 5 in the caI1, night? 6 7 ] FIED House was a do-out from this you thought that call because that A Cornect. a Getting in touch with Rudy Giuliani was was mentioned also 8 sevenal times by Pnesident Tnump. Why didn't you view 9 do-out fnom the call? 10 A It is 11 the scope of 12 to the White 13 L4 15 16 L7 18 my the nequested that to be a not within the scope of my nesponsibilities. Within nesponsibilities is to help annange head of state visits House on othen head of state meetings. I did not considen it to be a dinection to me. a Why was it not within the scope of youn nesponsibilities if it nelates to Uknaine -A Because I -policy mattens? a A -- I would help set up meetings with Ambassadon Bolton and 19 foreign delegations and the Pnesident on Vice Pnesident and foneign 20 delegations, not othens. 2L 22 23 24 25 a But you wene also in change the U.S. policy toward Uknaine, of coondinating too. It wasn't and onchestnating just head of state visits, night? A Connect. a And if the Pnesident wanted the Uknainians to meet with Rudy UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS I 116 F]ED 1 Giuliani, isn't that -- wouldn't that be pant of youn pontfolio 2 overseeing Uknaine? 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 A I did not considen it to be. a Because why? A It was not within my -- the pnocess I was involved in. a It was not in the official U.S. policy towand Ukraine to have -- to involve Rudy Giuliani? A Not one that I was involved in. a So is it youn view that the Pnesident sets the policy? A Yes. a 11 72 A I Mn. was awane Giuliani, a 15 that was pant t7 meet with 19 20 this call that the what the Pnesident naised with nespect to yes. of U.S. policy if the Pnesident dinect asked Rudy Uknaine to Giuliani? thought at the time. I did not think at the time this was my nesponsibility to help implement. a Whose nesponsibility was it? A I did not have an opinion then, and I 22 23 25 of A No. a Why not? r don't A I'm tnying to tel1 you what I 18 24 away fnom That wasn't answering my question. Did you not think that 16 27 did you not take Pnesident's policy decisions on Uknaine included Rudy Giuliani? 13 L4 And so do not have an opinion now. a And was this something that you wene just trying to stay UNCLASS I FIED away Lt7 UNCLASSI FTED 1 fnom? A It just 2 3 I did not see it within the scope of my nesponsibility. 7 a But is this something along the Bunisma line that you wene tnying to stay away fnom, as you testified earlien? A It was that pnocess I was not I was not getting -- Mn. Giuliani was a pant of that pnocess in which I was not 8 involving myself. 4 5 6 a Okay. 9 10 aware that Mn. So you wene Giuliani not awane in the was meeting -- when did you become with Uknainian officials? 13 in -- I had sevenal calls with Ambassadon Taylor. So I think it would have come up in one of the ca1ls -- it would have had to at this point - - one of the calls I had with him in 14 August. 11 L2 A It a 15 16 may have come up Did you have any calls with Ambassador Taylon in the finst 2 weeks of August? 2t A I believe so. I had -- I had at least one that I -- that I have a necord of, yes. a What date? A 16 August. a And just fon the necond to be c1ean, what ane you looking 22 at to L7 18 19 20 23 24 25 nefnesh youn necollection? A I pninted out calendan entnies. a And so you don't have anything else between July 28th and August 16th UNCLASS I FIED 1 2 3 4 A Not a -- with Ambassadon Taylon? A Not -- we11, JuIy 28th, y€S. I also spoke with him on -- I spoke with him on Sunday July 28th, and I spoke with him beyond then. a 5 5 7 8 When you mentioned Rudy Giuliani to Ambassador Taylon on that? I'm just asking fon youn necollection. A Yeah. Not that I can necall. a Mn. Did you know what Ambassador Taylon's views wene about Giuliani's involvement in A a A a A 11 L2 13 t4 15 of July 28th? As of July 28th, Uknaine mattens? As No, yeah. I don't believe I When did you learn Again, I did. those? referenced convensations text Uknaine whene he mentioned 17 Mn. Giuliani whene he shared his views, and 18 them. a A hJhat were his BilI and messages and phone 16 19 July 28th, did he say anything about Mr. Giuliani in nesponse to you naising 9 10 118 I FIED UNCLASS I -- I had involving calls he and he had with I discussed views? 27 -- pnincipally that he did not always know what Rudy was doing. He and I discussed a lack of, shaIl 22 we say, OPSEC, that much of Rudy's discussions wene happening oven an 23 unclassified ce11 phone on, perhaps as bad, 24 therefone you can only imagine who else knew about them. 20 25 a WeII, he was concenned that Was he concenned at all WhatsApp messages, and about the substance UNCLASS I FIED of what 119 UNCLASS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ] F]ED Mr. Giuliani was pnessing? A I'm tnying to necaII a WelI, let me ask you this. Did he nelay to you that Mr. Giuliani was pnessing fon these investigations? A Not around this time. I think we had discussions about what they were doing Iaten, but not anound August 16th, I don't believe. WeII, what did he descnibe to you was going on with the text a messages with Sondland, Volken, and Giuliani? A I nememben being focused on the fact that Rudy was having fact that thene wene text all of these phone calls oven 10 messages, the 7t unclassified media. And I found that to be highly pnoblematic t2 indicative of 13 secunity pnocesses ane 1.4 a someone who By August 15 the Uknainians to 16 election L7 18 19 20 27 22 23 24 25 didn't neaIly and undenstand how national nun. 15th, did you know that Rudy initiate investigations into Giuliani was pnessing Biden, Bunisma, and 2@L6 ? A I think I did, yes. I think I deduced that fnom the JuIy 25th call. a So aften the July 25th call, did you take any steps to figure out r^ihat Rudy Giuliani believed on was advocating related to Uknaine? A I decided to stay out of that line of pnocess. a So the only knowledge you had was fnom the JuIy 25th ca}l? A As of when? a August 15th. A Yes, that's my necollection. UNCLASS ] FIED UNCLASS I a L And you t20 F]ED didn't discuss it with Ambassadon Taylon 4 to youn necollection? A Not to the best of my recollection. a Okay. So you were not awane that -- well, 5 that thene was a discussion eithen 6 Sondland 7 Ambassador 8 White 9 August 15th? 2 3 -- L7 No. at the You mentioned 13 the L4 was around 15 to 16 necollection as to MEMCON Warsaw A if so 19 week of a 2L meeting to meet So I was when with last nound that Mr. Eisenbeng to place the tnanscnipt - - on was a mistake that conversation Do it you have a mone specific was? Ambassador Bolton on 1 Septemben, visit tnavel pnior to Warsaw, would have been maybe the thind August. So how fan in advance would you ordinanily so nonmal to 24 centain things befone a oun with Pnesident Zelensky. 23 25 of the time that you wene pnepaning fon Pnesident Tnump's like this? A In this -- be on it end in the highly classified system. And you said that that Wansaw was anound 20 22 between Ambassadon Volken, and Rudy Giuliani related told you in a meeting that 18 wene you aware thene wene discussions among Ambassadon Sond1and, t2 l7 -- that, to conditioning the House meeting on the initiation of this investigation by A a 10 among befone -- in this tnavel fon about a week befone Undenstood. pnepane for a case, because r was planning Wansaw, I wanted to put in place I left the countny. When was youn UNCLASS -- you'ne talking about the tnip I FIED L2t UNCLASS I 1 you took FIED to Kyiv as well as a couple othen I staffed the Pnesident and Ambassadon 2 A 3 in Biannitz. 4 and So places? Belanus. Ambassadon Bolton then pnoceeded And we then proceeded to to Bolton at the G7 Uknaine, Moldova, Wansaw. 11 a I see. And did -- so I just want to be very clean about this. Mn. Eisenbeng told you that it was a -- you looked fon the MEMCON in the system and you couldn't find it. Is that night? A Connect. a And then you went and asked -- what did you do -- Iet me ask it this way: What did you do aften you couldn't find it? A I called the NSC Executive Secnetaniat staff to say, 12 essentially, what gives? 5 6 7 8 9 10 13 L4 15 16 77 a A And what did they say? They said John Eisenbeng had dinected it be moved to a diffenent senven. a What did you do nextl A I talked to John. 23 a And what did he say to you? A He said he did not. a What did you say back to him? A I said, well, that you need to talk to Exec Sec because they think you dinected it. a And then what did he say to you? When did he say it was a 24 mistake 18 19 20 21 22 25 ? A Aften he talked to -- weI1, I don't necall if it UNCLASS I FIED was in that UNCLASS I T exact 2 he checked 3 them 4 to nestnict 5 5 same convensation on to do in with the that. 722 FIED a sepanate convensation, but at Exec Sec some point to find out why they thought he dinected And he came back and said, wel1, I agneed with you access. They took which was not my that as a direction to -- move it to a different senven, which was not his instnuction nor my necommendation. UNCLASS I FIED 723 I FIED UNCLASS 7 ItL:22 a .m. BY MR. GOLDMAN: 2 3 l a And so was it youn undenstanding that at the point of that 4 meeting the thind week of August, Mn. Eisenbeng was not awane 5 tnanscnipt had been moved to the highly classified that the system? 8 A That's my necollection, yes. a You said that thene was a -- that you pnetty eanly on -- and cornect me if this descniption is wrong, but you testified eanlien that 9 you pnetty eanly on undenstood that 6 7 10 11 12 13 t4 this issue was going to become a I think was youn language, and you tnied to pnotect your team, I think is what you said. Is that youn necollection ofwhat you said? pnocess, A Yes. a A What did you mean by "a That at this point, anound 15 I stated in my statement, if it 16 partisan political issue. l7 about the call pnocess"? JuIy 25th, leaked And so I was lt I was afnaid of, would wind up becoming -- that as a was among my concenns leaking. 22 to -- I don't necaLl pnecisely what was playing out contemponaneously in the media, but I became funther concenned that it could become mone than just a pantisan issue, and I wanted to essentially put myself between my staff and that issue. I was in change. It was my nesponsibility to pnotect them from anything 23 that would be a distnaction 18 19 20 21. As time went on, and 24 a 25 whistleblowen And I'm not I'd have fnom thein mission. I don't want to go anywhene nean who the is, but when did you become awane that there was a UNCLASSIEIED 724 UNCLASS I EIED 1 to this issue? A When the -- when the pness -- pness covenage of the fact of whistleblowen complaint nelated 2 3 a whistleblowen began. that in 5 a A Whenever 6 a So you wene unawane 4 7 So that SePtemben? happened, Y€s, a whistleblowen complaint the best of 8 A To 9 a Do you 10 was at some A t\ at that any point was when. in August that thene was that had been filed nelated to this my issue? necollection, yes. recall getting a request to point nelated to Uknaine pnesenve youn documents mattens? Yes. 18 a Did you know what that nelated to when you neceived it? A I don't know that I did. We've received a couple dozen of those kinds of lnstructions -- pnesenve youn documents, pnesenve your documents. And my -- you know, punsuant to the Pnesidential Reconds Act, the way oun email is set up, the way oun phone calls happen, you know, my sont of entny-level basic openating assumption is thene's a necond of evenything. And, you know, I don't even think I have the 19 capability to delete an emai1, fon L2 13 L4 15 16 L7 a 20 27 24 25 undenstand that. But did you undenstand what the pnesenvation nequest nelated to? A I think I 22 23 I example. I saw that it was nelated to Ukraine. I don't believe of much mone than that. a Did you think it nelated to the July 25th call? A I think, if I'm connect in necalling, I think what it had any undenstanding UNCLASS I FIED nelated L25 UNCLASS I E]ED 1 to 2 Ieaked 3 to. 4 was the disclosune of the ho1d, the hold on assistance. in late August, I think that's a 0kay. We1I, I what I thought the email was before the date that the public 6 secunity assistance hold. 8 9 10 A in August, did he mention a whistleblowen L2 nelated 13 A L4 MR. GOLDMAN: Oun of complaint No. time is up. So ane you good if we go another 45 minutes on do you want a break? MR. MORRISON: Yeah, t7 MR. BITAR: 18 MR. GOLDMAN: If I'm good. we go anothen Okay. 45, we'IL have lunch aften that. And we'11- yield to the minonity. BY MR. CASTOR: 19 a I belleve you testified eanlien that the July 25th call nequested thnough the regular NSC pnocess. Do you 23 24 and had pnoposed a 25 was rememben who officially nequested the call? A I know -- I know we, the NSC staff, wene advocating 22 the to Uknaine? 16 2L became awane a So it would be hard fon it to be that. A Okay. I'm telling you what my best necollection is. a And just to be cIean, in any of your convensations with Mn. Eisenbeng 20 was related Okay. 11 15 that believe that the date you would have received 5 7 it When a call call. a Okay. And wene thene any temponal considenations of the UNCLASSI FIED 126 UNCLASS 1 I FIED caI1, befone on aften the panliamentany elections? it to 2 A 3 panliamentany 4 anound 5 Pnesident Zelensky had tnavel laten that week. We wanted happen as close as possible elections. That's the time of the 25th, when it's we were keen on most it nipe. to the And I nememben happening then, because 7 I don't necall what day of the week the 25th was. Monday was the 22nd, so it was Thunsday or so. That Fniday, I believe, Pnesident Zelensky had tnavel pIans. 8 So he would be away fnom 9 have such a 6 the secune phone he has that in youn tnansition with Dn. Hill, did she expness an opinion on the -- whethen she was in favon of having the call? A Not that I recall. And 1,3 a OkaY. t4 MS. VAN GELDER: IN fAVOT? L7 L2 to calI. a 10 we would use UNCLASS I FIED 127 UNCLASS BY MR. CASTOR: 7 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 I FIED a In favon of on against the call? A Not that I necall. a So you don't nememben if she was against having that type of cal]? A Not that I necall. a Okay. Do you nememben if she was against having the meeting, the Oval Office meeting on the meeting in A a No, I Wansaw, which do not. Do you necall any concenn about whethen Pnesident Zelensky 11 would be a genuine nefonmen and follow thnough on L2 commitments 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 A a apologize 19 A 20 a 2t A Yes. And whethen he would be try to influenced by oliganchs and whethen noot out connuption? Yes. I believe thene's an oliganch by the name of -if I get the pnonunciation wnong -- Kolomoisky. And Yes. 22 23 his campaign ? he would genuinely A a -- AI 24 25 UNCLASS I FIED and I UNCLASS I 128 FIED 1 2 3 BY MR. CASTOR: 4 a Okay. 5 But can you 6 the lead-up to the call? 7 to 8 9 10 11 12 13 L4 15 16 Was tell us about what the NSC view was in that a concern on a potential noadblock having the call? A I think oun view was we wanted to -- the United States to engage the Zelensky administration, to test a And do you know by the time the JuIy 25th whethen he had an oppontunity A He had election. of August. not. The Rada, The the him. to call had happened implement any nefonms? July 25th call was incident to the new Rada, would Rada not be seated until the end a Okay. And aften the Rada was seated, do you know if Pnesident Zelensky made an effont to implement those refonms? 20 A I do. a And what nefonms genenally can you speak to? A We11, he named a new prosecuton genenal. That was something that we wene specifically intenested in. He had his panty introduce 21 a spate of legislative neforms, one of which 22 significant was stnipping 23 immunity. That 24 things. t7 18 19 25 a And passed Rada membens was panticulanly of thein panliamentany fainly quickly, as I recalI. within what time peniod UNCLASS wene some I FIED Those kinds of of those initial 129 UNCLASS I 7 FIED nefonms passed? A Veny, veny quickly. a Okay. So in the month of August? A When we wene -- when Ambassadon Bolton was in Ukraine and 2 3 4 that 5 he met with Pnesident Ze1ensky, we obsenved 6 Uknainian side 7 fon days wonking on, you know, nefonm legislation, wonking on the of the table evenybody on the was exhausted, because they had been up new tt to get thnough as much as possible on the first day. a Remind me again of Ambassadon Bolton's visit. Was that August, at the end of August? A It was the end of August. It was between the G-7 and the L2 Wansaw commemonation. 8 9 10 Cabinet, a So by Labon Day, for example? A I seem to recall we were -- we -- we wene there on the opening 13 L4 of the Rada. Pnesident -- Pnesident Zelensky met 15 day L6 Bolton on the opening day of the Rada, and they wene L7 session. Yeah. So, I 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 mean, with in Ambassadon an all-night things wene happening that day. a So by Labon Day, things had neally -- thene had been A Yes. a -- definitive developments A Yes. a -- on the fnont to demonstrate that President Zelensky was committed A a to the issues he campaigned on? Yes. Did you emenge fnom those meetings with Ambassadon Bolton UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS L encounaged A a A a A a A a 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 13 14 2L 22 23 24 25 And he had the best interests of the Uknainian people in mind? Yes. And that he was not a self-dealing bad guy? Yes. Do you think Ambassadon Bolton shaned that view? Yes. And did you look fonward to coming back to the United States that thnough the intenagency pnocess? home? A We communicated it befone we got home. a Okay. So nelatively quickly, that message was communicated L7 20 Yes. up the chain once you did get 16 19 nefonmer? A Yes. a Up the chain to the President and so fonth? A Yes. a Okay. And did you have an opportunity to communicate that t2 18 that Pnesident Zelensky was a genuine and communicating 11 15 130 I FIED back to Pnesident Tnump and his top aides? A Yes. a okay. Do you know if that infonmation was well-neceived? A By whom? a By President Tnump and his top aides. Did you get any feedback on wond A please of feedback? Could you nestate the question on repeat the question, ? UNCLASS ] FIED 131 UNCLASS t 2 3 a Did you -- well, maybe I I FIED should stant with who passed that infonmation on, was that you on Ambassadon Bolton on both A of you? Ambassadon Bo1ton. 8 a 0kay. And do you know whethen Ambassadon -A I passed some of the infonmation along, too. a Okay. And did you get any feedback that these ane good, positive finst steps? A So we -- I called back to my team. I told them to pnovide 9 some updates 4 5 6 7 to the pnep materials that we had pnepared fon the 10 President fon what we then believed would be his meeting with Pnesident 11 Zelensky. it became clean, because of the hunnicane, that the Pnesident L2 When 13 would not tnavel L4 the Vice Pnesident's staff. 15 16 t7 18 a A a 2t communicated 23 24 25 convey that infonmation to to Wansaw? went fnom Ukraine, Moldova, Belanus, to Wansaw. in the meeting between the Vice Pnesident and Pnesident Zelensky? 20 22 to was going You wene A a 19 made sune the next pant of the tnip And We to Wansaw, I Yes. Can you necal-l genenally to the message Vice Pnesident Pence Pnesident Zelensky? A Yes. a What was that? A It was to convey U.S. suppont fon Ukraine. It was to convey Pnesident Tnump's focus on Pnesident Zelensky's -- well, not UNCLASS I FIED 132 UNCLASSIFIED 1 necessanily President Zelensky's 2 cornuption nefonm in Uknaine. It 3 was -- Pnesident Tnump's focus on also to convey Pnesident Tnump's concenn that the United 4 States ought not be the only countny pnoviding secunity assistance to 5 Uknaine. Did the Ukrainians naise the issue 6 a 7 support 8 A Yes. a A And what do you nemember 9 10 at that point? They wene of that? fnustnated. They wene sunpnised by the public 11 disclosune on or about the L2 fnom 13 was 28th. And they wene looking the Vice President about why thene was a hold, what the a Okay. And did the Vice Pnesident tny to encounage them that A He tnied to encounage them that -- to continue to hold tnue, L7 that the United States supponts Uknaine, 18 to do as much as possible to gain 19 to continue the a 20 22 23 and that they should continue mone support fnom the Eunopeans and connuption nefonm agenda. Okay. Did he attempt the aid would be delivened? to a1lay thein concenns about whethen Because we'ne coming up on the end of the fiscal year. To the best of youn recollection? A Thene was only so much he could say. a 24 25 neview the hold would be lifted? 16 21 for clanity looking at. t4 15 of support, financial that Okay. Did he make any commitments meeting? UNCLASS] FIED to the Uknainians duning 133 UNCLASS 1 A No. 2 a okay. 3 A WeIl, yes, he made one. I FIED He would nelay what he believed was 4 a veny positive meeting, the content of that meeting, to Pnesident 5 Tnump. a Okay. In shont onder? A Yes. a Okay. Do you know if the Vice Pnesident did that? A Yes. a And did you get any neadout of how that convensation went A Yes. a -- on the Pnesident neceived it? A Yes. 5 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 15 a In a positive way? A I did neceive a neadout. 16 a t4 t7 skeptical 19 A Yes. a okay. 22 24 25 ? thein suppont of Uknaine financially? 2t 23 the Pnesident positive at that point on was he still A Still skeptical. a Was the Pnesident's skepticism, in pant, based on oun allies, 18 20 Was mone So he was still concenned that oun allies could do ? A a Yes. And he was still concenned by UNCLASS his general issue with using ] EIED UNCLASS L U.S. taxpayen dollans ovenseas? 2 A To 3 a Duning the Warsaw 4 the best of a sideban with my understanding. visit 7 8 a it Okay. had just see exchange? And wene you pant of the exchange on did you occun? 10 A I 11 a L2 f guess, Uknainian Pnesidential Adviser Yenmak. a Did you witness that A I witnessed it, yes. 6 Ambassadon Sondland, Yenmak? A Yes. 5 9 L34 I EIED saw it Okay. occun. And what Ambassadon Sondland A 13 He came -- told he did you leann about that exchange? I guess you what he told essentially walked acnoss a, you know, a -- I to describe the noom. He walked L4 don't 15 he bniefed me on what he said he had said know how Yenmak? to acnoss the space and Mn. Yenmak. 18 a Okay. What did he teII you? A He told me that in his -- that what he communicated was that he believed the -- what could help them move the aid was if the 19 pnosecuton general would go to the mike and announce 20 the 16 77 Bunisma And So 24 a A Yes. 25 a And 22 23 he was opening investigation. a A 2L that this occunned aften the Vice Pnesident's meeting? Yes. the Vice Pnesident had just met with Pnesident Zelensky? the wond "Bunisma" wasn't -- didn't UNCLASS I FIED come up? 135 UNCLASS L A 2 MR. CASTOR: Ane you going 3 MR. I EIED No. to intennupt BITAR: No. lust fon the necond, 4 the witness mentioned 5 I just want to "Bunismar make sune I " meant by that the 7 MR. BITAR: Undenstood. Thank you. 8 MR. CASTOR: Sonny. I didn't MR. CASTOR: 0kay, L2 been some back-and-fonths 13 So I apologize to 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 mean recond's fain enough. Believe it that maybe led to some on not, thene have questions on my pant. my colleague. BY MR. CASTOR: 74 L7 in the ain. accunate. 11 L6 when Bunisma bucket. to -MR. BITAR: No, no. It was just to make sune the 9 -- that that's in the MR. MORRISON: 15 when you mentioned he put quotation manks 5 10 me? a Getting back to the Vice Pnesident's meeting, the wond didn't come up in lt? A It did not. "Bunisma" a The name Biden was not mentioned? A It was not. a A Whethen Hunten Biden on fonmen No fonm of Vice Pnesident Biden? Biden. a The wond "CnowdStnike" didn't A It did not. come up? a Any specific investigation? A No, not to the best of my necollection. UNCLASS I FIED 136 UNCLASS] FIED 1 a 2 election investigation nelating to the nun-up to the Any 2016 ? 5 A No. a Okay. So the meeting ends and that's the definitive, know, U.S. position at this point. The Vice President just 6 communicated 3 4 7 8 9 10 TL 72 A a with the Pnesident of Uknaine, right? Yes. So did you have any idea why Ambassadon Sondland a Okay. Ambassador Sondland 14 A 15 MS. VAN GELDER: Doing what? 16 MR. CASTOR: Going L7 MR. M0RRISON: 20 2L 22 23 24 25 was to go and tnack Mn. Yenmak down? A No. But, in fainness, I also didn't know why Ambassador Sondland was in the meeting. that, did he? 19 felt it necessany 13 18 you didn't consuLt you pnion to doing No. to speak with Yenmak. Fain Yes, he did consult with me enough. about going to the meeting. BY MR. CASTOR: a Okay. And what did you tell him? A He said he wanted to have a seat in the meeting. okay, Gordon, I'11 see what I can do. And I said, a Okay. And did you help him get a seat in the meeting? A No. a Okay. How did he get a seat in the meeting? UNCLASS T FIED L37 UNCLASS 1 A I do not know. 2 a I FIED Okay. Did you even have any communicatlons with him in that 3 timefname about not doing something of 4 these communications with 5 A No. 6 a Okay. this sort, of going up and having Yenmak? When he came back to you and related what he just with Mn. Yermak, did you give him any feedback, such as, 7 exchanged 8 did you do that? 0n did you just -- on you wene just neceiving? 9 10 11 L2 13 L4 15 A I took it on boand and immediately stanted thinking about who I wanted to call about it. a Okay. And who did you call about it? A Ambassador Bolton, Ambassadon Taylon. And I made sune to -- thene wene no NSC lawyens on this tnip. I made sune to communicate the same to the lawyens when I got back. a Okay. And you just related the communication? A Yes. And youn concenn about 18 a A 19 a Okay. 16 t7 And did any of those panties give you any advice necommendations on how 2t file on to handle it, or was it just noting it fon the ? 22 A 23 was make sune 25 it? Yes. 20 24 Why a Ambassador Bolton's dinection, consistent with my instinct, the lawyens are tnacking. Okay. At any point did you feel comfontable telling Ambassadon Sondland that maybe what he was doing UNCLASS I FIED hene wasn't helpful? 138 UNCLASS I EIED 1 A I didn't 2 a Okay. 3 4 5 6 I didn't Had you deem it would result in anything. ever, befone this point, had you even tnied to modenate some of his tendencies? A a A 0n -- yes. And how So did you try to do that? staying within the scope of the inquiny, I would I in I 7 issues that 8 on what othens 9 his instinct or his impulse, on I would te11 a thought were my punview, in the intenagency effective were doing to get it just -- on would offen him counsel that him he should facton into that I thought thene done than he was 10 was perhaps LL contemplating. t2 a And he wasn't a caneen diplomat, night? A No. a He's somebody coming fnom outside of government. He's a hotelier. Is that night? A As I understand it fnom pness neporting. 13 L4 15 16 mone L7 a okay. 18 Sondland related to the 19 and hadn't 20 A And do you way think fact that some he of these issues with just wasn't neally been steeped in the ant of tnlhen Fiona stanted talking 27 then when I met with 22 nepresented to me a pnofessional diplomat diplomacy? to me about the pontfolio, and Ambassadon Sondland that his Ambassadon on 10 JuIy, I found mandate fnom the Pnesident was 23 MS. VAN GELDER: 24 MR. MORRISON: Sonny, Ambassador Sondland. 25 That his mandate from the Pnesident was to he go make WhO? UNCLASS I FIED to go make deals. And 139 UNCLASS I FIED 1 he expnessed 2 fnustnation -- this is in the 10 July meeting -- he expnessed his that he felt that on occasion Fiona thwanted him, and she 3 didn't tell him she was going And Fiona's 4 5 I 6 punsue was 7 outside 8 my said I best oniginal advice was just steen clean of Gondon. thought what would be mone effective and the appnoach to spy, you know, pnoblems as opposed to that, 11 noble things t2 success, do you think? you know, you want scope being ignonant. Those ane would offen ane outside the of the inquiny and a Okay. 15 5o you had a nelatively amicable nelationship with him? A That's what I saw it, and I believe I had it. a Okay. Did he ever undenstand that -- I mean, the t7 18 19 intenagency pnocess and the coordination nole 20 Secunity Council penfonms is 2t you 23 I would to achieve, but did you have any A I think so, but the examples I 13 22 And I'd nathen have him inside the tent, you know, nathen than the tent. And so I wanted to know what he was doing and do a Okay. And did you have any success whatsoever? 10 16 do that. BY MR. CASTOR: 9 74 to that the National -- you know, has its complexities. Do think he appneciated that? A No. a Okay. And did you even tny to help him undenstand that if 24 he's having communications with the Uknainians about issues 25 thene's, you know, a gneat leveL of complexity involved he might foul UNCLASS I FIED whene UNCLASS \ something 140 I FIED up? A Yes. WeII, I'm sonny, please nestate the question 2 3 the question. 4 a That thene's complexities involved here, and 5 fuIly 6 intenagency components he might appnise himself of these complexities involving A 7 So 9 something he doesn't the diffenent up? specific to Uknaine -- a Right. A -- I will 8 foul all if on ne-ask say that I did. I was very tnanspanent with him, 10 fon example, with nespect to trying to schedule meetings with the 11 Pnesident, that t2 do 13 appnopriate L4 Ukrainians. 15 16 L7 18 that thnough a A I was not going to do that with him. I was going to Bill Taylon. He was our chief of mission. He's the conduit. He should be having those discussions On Ambassadon Bolton, the fnont office of the a If thene's going to be meetings scheduled with the President. A If thene would be meetings scheduled with the President, yes, 20 2L meetings with? 22 23 24 25 NSC, night? What about Ambassadon Bolton? I'd expect Ambassadon Bolton -MS. VAN GELDER: Can we identify 19 with the which Pnesident we'ne having BY MR. CASTOR: a I'm sonny. Pnesident TnumP. A If we'ne talking about a meeting between Pnesident Tnump and a foreign head of state on head of government, I would finst make sune UNCLASS] FIED UNCLASS L4t ] FIED Bolton supponted such an engagement. And if he did, then 1 Ambassadon 2 I 3 chief of mission, BilI Taylon. would endeavon to help schedule it, and I would do that thnough the 7 a Okay. TelI us about youn experience with Ambassadon Volker. A I had known Kunt fon some time befone we both found ounselves senving in the Tnump administnation. And in the course of the Tnump administnation, I met with him two on thnee times. I talked to him 8 two on thnee additional times. 4 5 6 a 9 10 Sondland L2 bit mone expenience A L6 to me I Ambassadon Sondland, asked role hene? but also by What do you think of what's going on? youn 20 his 2L was pnoblematic, and we wene attempting 22 nonmal concenns about what he saw going on. to follow as best A activities? No. UNCLASS ] FIED that it we could the outcomes. Did you even ask Ambassadon Volken Ambassador Sondland's And he expnessed And we both agneed policy process to achieve the night a Ambassadon Taylon. Kunt: Kunt, what's youn involvement hene? What's 19 25 hene? Yes. langely by And 18 24 openations a And what do you nememben telling Ambassadon Volker? A I told him what I was awane of happening as had been nelated 15 23 than Ambassadon ? Ambassadon Volken abolrt Ambassadon Sondland's L4 L7 a little A Yes. He was oun penm nep to NATO. a Right. And did you even have any communications with 11 13 And he had to attempt to modenate L 2 3 4 5 6 a Okay. L42 F]ED UNCLASS I Did he even suggest to you affirmatively that he doing his best with the Ambassadon Sondland aspect A of this? I'm hesitating, because I'm struggling to reca11 exactly we discussed what he was tnying to was how do. I don't necall how he descnibed any attempt to modulate Gondon. a Okay. Did you see Ambassadon Vo1ken as someone that might to 7 be able 8 Vo1ker's modulate Ambassadon Sondland, on was he beyond Ambassadon 72 ability to influence? A I saw Kunt as a like-minded advocate fon U.S.-Uknainian nelations, and I wanted to chiefly undenstand what his role in this side pnocess was, because of -- I'd heand his name by both Ambassadon Sondland and Ambassadon Taylon as being involved, and I wanted to 13 undenstand 9 10 LL 1.4 15 16 17 18 fon myself what he was doing. to learn that he was doing? That he was trying not to get involved in what -was doing. He saw that it was it was pnoblematic. did you a A And what a And you neven heand Ambassadon Volken advocate of investigation into Vice come 22 23 of specific investigation of a U.S. penson? 20 2L 24 25 he fon any sont Pnesident Biden, did you? A I did not. a 0n Hunten Biden? A I did not. a Did you even hean Ambassadon 19 what Volker advocate fon any sont A I did not. a Getting back to the Warsaw visit, UNCLASS I FIED You had a meeting at the L43 UNCLASS 1. hotel, not in a hotel noom, but with Mr. 3 4 5 the 6 share his Pnesident's state 7 cnedibility of U.S. 8 space 10 11 L2 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 Danylyuk? A r did. a And what can you teIl us about that meeting? A Thene wene a couple topics. The one I will discuss is 2 9 I EIED he wanted to discuss the secunity assistance. He wanted to suppont of mind as to his confidence in the for what Uknaine was doing in the secunity chiefly. And so that's why I went oven to meet with him. a Okay. And wene you able to -- did he -- wene you able to allay his concenns that the secunity assistance would be forthcoming? A No. a Did you tny to do that? A I tnied to explain to him, based on what I thought a foneignen to know about what was going appnoach to foneign assistance. needed a Okay. And you wene still on and Pnesident Tnump's genenal hopeful at this point the aid would be neleased? A a Yes. And did you in any way signal to him that you were hopeful the aid would be neleased, given the bipantisan suppont fon it? A I tnied to fname it mone fnom the penspective of he -- I did I did not feel comfortable pledging to him that the aid would be neleased, or I did not feel comfontable foneshadowing a positive outcome, but I also tnied to let him know -- I tnied to assune him that we wene stil1 in the neview process and thene not think he needed to despain. UNCLASS ] FIED UNCLASS 1 was 2 3 744 FIED 1 stil1 time. a Okay. And did you nelay to him that you were suppontive of the aid being neleased? A No. a Okay. Moving fonwand to aften the Wansaw visit 4 5 Taylor relates in his opening statement on page 12 that 5 7th, 7 you descnibed a phone conversation 8 Ambassadon Ambassadon A a 9 10 on Septemben Sond1and. This that I guess was nelated is the thind panagnaph on page 12. Yes. Ambassadon Taylon wnites, "Mt^. Monnison said that he had a LL sinking feeling aften leanning about this convensation fnom L2 SondIand. " Let 13 74 me askyou a question finst. a sinking feeling aften talking to Was Ambassadon this the finst time you had Ambassadon Sondland? A No. a Okay. What do you nememben Ambassadon Sondland telling 15 16 L7 to you fnom on this you day? 2L A If I necall connectly -- so we'ne talking 2 days laten, Septemben 7th. So this is after, I believe -- so this was, I think, the convensation whene -- I don't know if this was the finst convensation on the second convensation I had aften 1 Septemben with 22 Gondon, 23 both -- the Pnesident said thene 24 stated that Pnesident Zelensky should want to go to the micnophone 25 announce pensonally 18 19 20 but this was a convensation -- was whene Gondon nelated that not a quid pno quo, but he funthen and so it wouldn't be enough fon the prosecuton UNCLASS I F]ED 145 UNCLASS ] FIED 1 genenal, he wanted to announce pensonally, Zelensky pensonally, that 2 he would open the investigations. a Okay. Was this Ambassadon Sondland talking? A I was relating to Ambassadon Taylon my convensation with 3 4 5 Ambassadon Sondland. a 6 7 And do you think -- was Ambassadon Sondland -- to you that the Pnesident had said this? A Yes. a Okay. And you had a sinking feeling 8 9 10 explain 11 A had he nelated about this. Could you why? We1I, it's September 7th. Septemben 30th that we would be able to is coming. I was the tumblers align T2 gnowing pessimistic 13 to get the right people in the noom with the Pnesidents to get the aid t4 neleased. I L5 16 L7 also did not think to - - at this point I in oun politics. a 18 And did you - did you tny to it was a good communicate he 20 discussions were not helpful? 21 A the Pnesident. 23 Pnesident. 24 25 that to I mean, to me - - involve himself Ambassadon Sondland when unge Ambassadon Sondland We1I, he was tnansmitting 22 idea fon the Uknainian Pnesident had a betten undenstanding 19 - see that these types of a convensation he had with he'd alneady had the convensation with the a Right. But did you pnovide him any feedback, like if this comes up again, we shouldn't be doing this? UNCLASS I FIED 1.46 UNCLASS 1 A No. 2 a You spoke again with -- I'm sorny, 3 following day spoke on the 4 even nelated to I FIED phone with Ambassador Taylon on the Ambassadon Sondland. Was that you? A I'm sonny, nepeat that. 5 10 a 0n the following day, Septemben 8th -A Yeah. a -- Ambassadon Taylon wnites: Ambassadon Sondland and I -- meaning Ambassadon Taylon -- spoke on the phone and he related that Pnesident Tnump had suggested that he needed to clear things up 11 with Pnesident Zelensky. 6 7 8 9 A I was not awane at the time that this happened. a okay. Did you even have any communications with Ambassador t2 13 1.4 Taylor about this? 15 A About the phone 15 a Yes. L7 A Not 18 call on September 8th? that I necaIl, because this would soon be supenseded by the decision to nelease the aid. a 19 Okay. Did you know at this point in time that Ambassadon 20 Taylon had begun to wonk his own channel, expnessing his concenn about 2t the separate pnocess, as you describe? 22 A I 23 descnibing. a 24 25 his guess I'm not necessanily familian with what you'ne Ane you awane own chain of that command Ambassador Taylon expnessed concenns up about Ambassadon Sondland? UNCLASS I FlED 747 UNCLAS A No. a okay. t 2 3 with Ambassadon S I FIED Did he even nelate to you that he had a communication Bolton during the Wansaw tnip? 6 A Yes. a Okay. And what do you rememben fnom that communication? A He descnibed fon me that 7 MS. VAN GELDER: Who's "he"? 8 MR. MORRISON: 9 Ambassadon 4 5 I'm sonny, fain Point. Taylon descnibed fon me that his convensation with 10 Ambassadon Bolton, 11 Ambassadon Taylon: If I L2 back 13 t4 16 sent that cable? 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 wene you, I Ambassadon Bolton suggested to would send a finst-penson cable about the BY MR. CASTOR: a Okay. 18 essentially to Secretany Pompeo, descnibing to him your concenns impact of failing to pnovide the aid to Ukraine. 15 t7 whene Did you ever come to learn whethen Ambassadon Taylon A r did. a Okay. And did Ambassador Taylon even tell did you just leann from public you about it on neponts? A He told me about it. a Okay. And at this point, was Ambassadon Taylon getting -- did he ever talk to you about possibly nesigning? A Yes. a Okay. And what was -- what wene those communications? A He -- so this -- I mean, I fonget exactly when, but he had UNCLASS I FIED 148 IFIED UNCLASS in policy? 1 a convensation about, has thene been a change 2 it 3 Pompeo when 4 to be clean support fon Uknaine, Ukrainian secunity, that 5 senve 6 nemained to be seen. agneeing that And he said he had explained to take the post that if oun policy And to I said Secnetany was not going he could not in the post and he would nesign. a And did you do anything with that infonmation? Did you tny 7 to alent Ambassador Bolton on anybody that we need to 8 Taylon on the team hene? keep Ambassadon 10 A I kept -- so I would tell Ambassadon Bolton -- I don't know that I even specifically nefenenced a convensation I had with 11 Ambassadon Taylon 72 convensation on Septemben 13 7th -- L4 convensation, Ambassadon Taylon discussed that Ambassadon Sondland had 9 15 15 17 18 19 20 2T 22 23 24 25 because it with Bolton except fon possibly the Ambassadon 7th, because I think it discussed when Ambassadon Sondland was September -- in that told him: No, I don't actually think it will be enough fon the pnosecuton genenal to say it. I think the President is going to want to hean fnom the Pnesident. I made a mistake. So I nememben having that discussion with Ambassador Taylon. And I'm sonny, was that nesponsive? a I think so. But did you even put your head togethen with officials about now Ambassadon Taylor has some neal concenns about this -- you descnibe it as a sepanate pnocess. Ambassador Bolton on othen A a A Uh-huh. Ambassador Taylon ca11s it an inregular pnocess. Uh-huh. UNCLASS I EIED UNCLASS 1 a Diffenent 2 So 149 I FIED people hene have chanactenized did you have any it diffenently. -- did you try to communicate to anybody at of like, 3 the State Department on up the 4 Taylon has some senious concerns hene, we should do something to 5 alleviate A 6 NSC chain command, Ambassadon them? I -- in tnaveling to Ukraine, I spent some time talking Bolton about who Ambassadon Taylon is and about our WeII, 7 to 8 convensations and about Ambassadon Taylon's sense of what was happening 9 on the gnound Ambassadon in Uknaine. I don't necall if 10 Ambassadon Bolton was 11 Taylon fnom pnion govennment senvice. t2 conveyed 13 had been a change to 15 this time did 16 was I don't neca1l Ambassador that I Bolton Ambassadon Taylon's view that Ambassadon a Okay. t4 familian with in policy he would have to Duning youn convensations you signal to him even if there nesign. with Ambassador Bolton at that what Ambassador Sondland was doing not helpful? A I L7 kept Ambassadon Bolton -- on a few occasions, when there 18 had been some new development fnom Gondon, something new he bniefed 19 me 20 Ambassadon Taylon was 2t on that he was And so I doing, had a I would bnief Ambassadon Bolton and make sune tnacking. numben of convensations with Ambassadon get the Pnesident to yes on the 22 whene we stnategized on how we would 23 secunity assistance, and we wene both mindful 24 about Gondon is 25 a And as Bolton in those discussions this free nadical out thene. it was getting cLosen to the end of the fiscal UNCLASS I EIED yean, 150 UNCLASSI FIED 1 that fnee nadical element could 2 A 3 BeCauSe 4 focused on Septemben 5 of the notice-and-wait 6 7 8 9 We have tunned neal problematic, night? wene mostly focused on how do we see us getting this done. it wasn't -- you know, in SOme nespects, we wenen't actually 30th. trle wene focused on Septemben 15th, because requirement on State Depantment assistance. a Okay. And did you even make a determination, 1ike, ]et's get him out of this pnocess so we can get this done? A So I neven made that detenmination, because I think at my level I didn't think I could do that, because Ambassadon Sondland L2 to the Pnesident. I think -- I do necall -- I knowAmbassadon Bolton was fnustnated with Ambassadon Sondland's involvement in these issues -- fnankly, 13 involvement L4 Ambassadon Sondland's 10 11 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 nepnesented he had access in a lot of issues -- and we wene both fnustnated that essentially dinect boss didn't seem to be engaged in reining him in. a And his dinect boss was Secnetany Pompeo? A Yes. a Did you know if Ambassadon Bolton tnied to talk to -- communicate with Secretany Pompeo? A About Ambassadon Sondland? a Yes. A I do not. a Okay. Do you know if 24 concenns 25 A Secnetany Pompeo was awane ? Which concenns? UNCLASS I FIED of these 151 UNCLASS 2 About Ambassadon Sondland involving himself a 1 A I 4 a am not About Uknaine? About Ambassadon Sondland. 8 a A 9 a Okay. 7 No. Did you have any 10 Ambassadon Sondland's 11 than A No. 13 a Okay. L7 18 19 have any discussions with Geonge Kent Sondland. pnocess, such as Rudy Giuliani? 2L a Okay. 25 didn't a Assistant Secnetany Reeken on Ambassadon Reeken? A Not about Ambassadon Sondland in this pnocess. a Okay. How about othen elements of this sepanate No. 24 So you A Not about Ambassadon A 23 nole to anybody at the State Depantment othen on -- 20 22 -- did you expness your concenn about Ambassadon Taylon? L2 16 Counselor ? A 15 what you awane. Okay. Did you have any convensations with Bnechbuhl 6 74 in descnibed as a sepanate pnocess. 3 5 ] F]ED pnocess And wene thene any sepanate that you did discuss with Ambassadon Reeken? A No. What I Gondon is a problem. a other elements of this discussed with Ambassadon Reeken was, gosh, Okay. Did he agree? UNCLASS I EIED UNCLASS I 7 2 3 4 5 A a Yes. Did evenyone agnee on that A a Did you that 7 investigations 10 Did anybody think he was Gordon did. statement 9 topic? adding value hene? 6 8 752 FIED -- when did you was being discussed to leann that thene was this with Mn. Yenmak about ? MS. VAN GELDER: You asked we're doing come is not -- encompassing anything the question: Did you? I mean, what we've alneady agreed what we'ne doing that is then in UNCLASS pnepanation I E]ED of this. is not 153 UNCLASS] EIED BY MR. CASTOR: 1 2 a 3 Did you 4 7 L4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L 22 not awane an on? text in messages. was of. a Okay. Did you have any advance notice that these text messages wene being neleased? A No. a So you wene sunpnised when they wene? A My surpnise was my name was in them. a Okay. And you wene surprised -- h,ene they youn text messages? A No. a Okay. They wene just nefenning to you in the text messages? A Yes. a Is that the finst time that you leanned that thene was a of an anticornuption statement being dnafted by the 23 discussion 24 Uknainians fon possible issue? 25 of a Okay. So this is aften he started? A I was surprised to see my name in text messages that I 10 13 language neviewing the public disclosune of Ambassador Volken's 9 L2 that thene was dnaft A I did become awane. a And when did you become awane of that? A My cleanest necollection of when I became aware is 6 11 become awane anticonnuption statement that the Uknainians wene wonking 5 8 Sune. A As nean as I can neca1I, yes. UNCLASS ] F]ED UNCLASS ] 1 2 3 a Okay. A No. a Wene 154 FIED So you wenen't awane of this in neal time? you awane in real time that thene was some discussion 6 of having President Zelensky give an intenview where he would communicate his anticonnuption bona fides? A Beginning Septemben 1, when I heand fnom Ambassadon 7 Sondland, yes, 8 do this 4 5 9 10 1t L2 13 14 a A Sondland. a And did you communicate youn concenn to Ambassadon Sondland? A f communicated my concern to Ambassadon Taylon, because I to not to do it. 17 a 2L be in a position to take action to advise the Uknainians Okay. I communicated my concenns to Ambassadon Bolton, dinected me to communicate them to NSC Legal. A And a Okay. And ultimately, thene was no intenview, A Connect. 23 a So that was a good result? A Yes, fon the time. 24 a 22 25 he should YeS. 16 20 that thene was that idea that, hey, did you have any concern about that? And wanted him 19 was awane A Okay. A -- fnom Ambassadon 15 18 I Wene you comfontable with any aspect of who connect? this public statement on public affinmation that Zelensky, you know, make at the behest of UNCLASS I FIED 155 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 U.S. -- you know, the U.S. Govennment? A So keeping in mind when I leanned about a statement, I was 3 not comfontable with any idea that Pnesident Zelensky should a1low 4 himself to be involved 5 6 7 8 9 L0 11 72 13 L4 a Okay. Yenmak in oun polltics. But going back to the sideban that Sondland had with in Warsaw? A Going back to it, was I comfontable with -a WeIl, I want to just nefen you back to the sideban -A Yes. a -- Sondland had with Yenmak. At that time, Sondland is tnying to get the Uknainians to do something public, A a A a connect? Yes. With negand to investigations? Yes. 1,6 is, did you have a concenn with anything nelated to, you know, investigations, on was it just specific t7 investigations 18 A 15 19 20 And I guess my question ? My concenn was what Gondon was pnoposing about Uknainians puIled a Okay. getting the into oun politics. So if the Uknainians had issued a genenalized 2t statement about anticornuption effonts and nefonm, that would have been 22 okay with you? 23 24 25 A They had, in fact. a Okay. So it's only when they get into Bunisma and 2016 and the Bidens and so fonth that it became pnoblematic in youn mind? UNCLASS I EIED UNCLASS ] A a 1 2 Yes. Going back to the spring of 2@19, 3 nanratives cinculating in the media with 4 and The 5 the black ledgen, about specifically 6 you 7 impact 8 9 10 11 -- 156 FIED Hill when nelating to some did you finst Rudy thene wene a numben of Gluliani of these issues that come Ambassadon and lohn Solomon we discussed about Yovanovitch. Did to know about these issues and thein ? A The finst I've even heand of a black ledgen is you just now. a Okay. So you'ne unfamilian with the issue nelating to Paul Manafont ? A I'm awane of Paul Manafort. I'm awane of, you know, the L2 prosecution about Paul Manafont. I'm aware he was doing business 13 until a point in Uknaine. t4 a Okay. I'11 just 15 Were you awane 16 it oven. Serhiy Leschenko, that published infonmation about the black ledgen? A 18 MR. CASTOR: 19 MR. G0LDMAN: Why 27 say one mone thing and I'11 turn of an investigative jounnalist in the Uknaine, 17 20 up No. that good? Okay. My don't And we'11 neturn time we is up. take a half-houn break fon lunch? Is at L2:45. IRecess. ] UNCLASS I FIED 157 UNCLASS 1 [12:53 p.m.] THE CHAIRMAN: 2 3 to Let's go back on the necond. Fonty-five minutes Mn. Nob1e. BY MR. NOBLE: 4 a 5 6 last 7 Was So, Mn. Monnisofl, nound you nefenenced a that at the White 8 A Yes. 9 a And can you 10 I FIED I'd like to go back to -- I believe in July 10th meeting with the Ambassadon Sondland. House? just tell us what happened duning that meeting, what you discussed with Ambassadon Sondland? 12 A Yes. It wasn't -- thene was no panticulan policy discussion. ft was mostly -- by that point, it was fairly well-known 13 I 11 was succeeding Fiona. And Ambassadon Sondland came L4 in and just made clear he did not 15 believe he had a constructive nelationship with Fiona, her office, the 16 NSC 17 be an oppontunity 18 be a mone constnuctive nelationship. 19 ovena1I, and he was a -- he hoped that that was to tunn the -- that this page and have what he would believe to Did he say anything about how he came to be involved in 20 Uknaine, given that he's the Ambassadon to the EU? Did he explain 2t he was getting 22 his authonity A I don't recall. if 23 necaIl 24 because 25 a would whene fnom? he explained Ambassadon Sondland making clean in that meeting, but I that he was the Pnesident wanted him involved in Do you know whethen Ambassador UNCLASS I FIED do involved in Uknaine Uknaine. Bolton ever spoke to the 158 I FIED UNCLASS Ambassadon Sondland and his 7 President, Pnesident Tnump, about 2 involvement and your concenns about his involvement? Just the fact 3 of the convensation, whethen there was a convensation on not. 4 MS. VAN GELDER: WhCthCN hC 5 MR. NOBLE: Exactly. 6 MR. MORRISON: Between Ambassadon 7 BY MR. NOBLE: a Exactly. A I am not awane. a Okay. What about any conversation 9 10 11 between Ambassador Bolton and the Pnesident about Rudy Giuliani and his nole in Uknaine? A I am not awane. a I want to just ask you a quick question about something else 13 t4 15 Bolton and the Pnesident about Ambassadon Sondland? 8 t2 KNOWS? that's in Ambassadon On page 16 Taylon's testimony. 6 of his opening statement, if you go down to the thind it states that on July 10th, Ambassadon Taylor had t7 panagnaph, 18 convensations with Oleksandn Danylyuk and Andney Yenmak. Oh, 19 I'm sorny, next panagnaph. The same day, July 10th, 20 with Pnesident Zelensky's chief of staff, Andniy 27 Foneign Policy Advisen 22 Pnystaiko, who told 23 Giuliani that the 24 to 25 Taylon said he nelayed thein concenns happen and to the Pnesident Ambassadon Taylon phone call between Bohdan and then and now Foneign Ministen Vadym that they had heand fnom Mn. the two Pnesidents was unlikely that they were alanmed and disappointed. UNCLASS he met Ambassadon to Counselon Bnechbuhl. IFIED 159 UNCLASS Did Ambassadon Taylon ever 1 ] FIED teII you that Mn. Giuliani dinectly with Uknainian officials? 2 such communications 3 he says he alented 4 he have ever alented you, on did he even alent you 5 convensations was having Because here at least Counselon Bnechbuhl as of July 10th. hJould to these ? 8 A I have no clean necollection of him infonm -- of Ambassador Taylon telling me about Mn. Giuliani's engagements with Uknainian officials. We wene chiefly focused on Ambassadon Sondland's 9 engagements 6 7 A 10 11 something L2 something 13 Fast-fonwanding a little bit to August, following up on that you testified about eanlien, you said that thene was that pnompted you to want to shield youn people who are involved in Uknaine policy, on something to that effect? A a L4 15 16 with Uknainian officials. Uh-huh. Can you explain those concenns on want to us what pnompted you to, to shield youn people? A It -- not pnecisely. It L7 you know, have may have just been the accumulation 19 of data points, but at some points I just became concerned that this paraIlel pnocess was going to turn into something -- and hene we 20 ane 21 have them dragged 18 -- and I wanted to keep my people focused on thein mission and not 24 into anything if I felt like I could handle it. a So thene was nothing that you can necall in panticulan that prompted this concenn at a panticulan date? A It was -- it was -- so thene were the two things I nefenenced. 25 It 22 23 was, you know, I had been advised when UNCLASS I FIED I took over the shop by Dr. UNCLASS 160 I FIED in the office 1 Hill 2 Alex was the dinecton nesponsible fon Ukraine. So I wanted to 3 very canefully his involvement. and hen deputy and othens But 4 5 the I a1so, you know engagements with -- I made sune Ambassadon about Alex's judgment. that f was manage the one to handle Taylon, I didn't defen them down to 7 I just -- I had concerns that this issue, the injection of this panalleI pnocess, it just -- I was concenned about 8 it. 5 my deputy on to A1ex, because LT a Who was youn deputy? A lohn Enath. a Was he youn deputy -- oh, to this t2 A 9 10 day? Yes. 15 a Did you inhenit him fnom Dn. Hill? A Yes. trlell, yes. a So to speak? 16 A Yes. L7 a Okay. So I'd like to ask you about a senies of the 13 t4 18 intenagency meetings to discuss the secunity assistance. ' 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 You So I believe thene initially was a sub-PCC meeting on July L8th. wouldn't have attended that meeting, connect? A No. a Okay. Did you get a neadout aften that A Yes. a A Who did you get the neadout fnom? AIex. UNCLASS IF]ED meeting happened? 161 UNCLASS ] FIED 3 a Okay. What did he teII you? A That at his Ieve1, the depantments and agencies were aligned, that they -- that evenyone supponted the ongoing disbursement of the 4 secunity-secton assistance. L 2 a 5 6 the telI you the sub-PCC about A I think that thene had been an announcement made at hold? at the sub-PCC, and they had elabonated on what we had alneady heand about the hold 7 8 Did he he indicated that OMB was pnesent 10 it covened all dollans, DOD and Depantment of State, and it was -- it was beyond funds not yet obligated LL to include funds that had, in fact, 9 and a A L2 13 L4 the extent of the hold, that When was been obligated but not yet expended. the finst time you leanned about the hold? I don't have a clean necollection. This was not a meeting between Dn. Kuppenman and myself. But it was So scheduled 19 some it was on on about 1-5 JuIy. a Okay. And what did Dn. Kupperman tell you about the hold? A 0n1y that OMB had -- the chief of staff had infonmed OMB -- I should be clean -- the chief of staff's office had infonmed OMB that it was the Pnesident's dinection to hold the assistance. 20 Dn. Kuppenman stated that we owe the Pnesident the views of the 2L intenagency, make sune alI the depantments and agencies ane aligned 22 as 23 up thnough 24 behind the continuation 15 16 L7 18 25 to the a impontance of the aid, in onden to pnovide the President on the intenagency process the endonsement of the intenagency of the aid. And ane you awane that by that point, July 15th, UNCLASS I FIED when you UNCLASS 762 I F]ED 3 that, the Depantment of Defense, in consultation with the Department of State, had alneady centified that Uknaine had met the pneconditions to neceive the aid unden the National Defense 4 Authonization Act? 7 2 5 6 Ieanned A I don't know when I became awane of that. It might have been at the PCC I chained. But I did become awane of that. a Okay. Let's talk about the PCC you chained. 7 8 A I believe it was 23 JulY, a Okay. And did anyone from OMB participate at that meeting? A Yes. a Who wene the nepnesentatives of OMB? A Thene wene two pensonnel fnom OMB. I don't I did not 10 11 72 13 bning with me their t7 18 19 20 OMB say about the hold A at that and they had been informed a What were meeting? it was of staff's office, at the dinection of the Pnesident. the views of the other interagency panticipants at the meeting? A 22 nelationship 23 oppontunity. 25 anything, did the -- eithen of the neps fnom That the hold had been imposed by the chief 2t 24 names. a Okay. What, if 15 16 did that take place? 9 L4 When a is essential to Uknaine's secunity, the U.S. with Uknaine, and it should be neleased at the eanliest That the aid Was thene any reason pnovided by the at the meeting for the hold? UNCLASS I FIED OMB neps on anyone else 163 UNCLASS I EIED 1 A No. 2 a Where 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 did you -- what wene at the PCC? A t^Je would have a Deputies a Was thene any discussion the hold at the PCC A Yes. a A What was Because the do-outs on next steps decided Committee meeting. of the legality on illegality of meeting? -- can you explain what was discussed? of the natune of the appnopniations, is it actually 10 legally penmissible fon the President to not allow fon the disbursement 11 of the funding. And what law would be possibly L2 a 13 disbunsement violated if the 16 A I'm going to hesitate from pnoviding a legal opinion. f know there wene vanious views. And up until the nelease of the assistance there wene vanious views as to whethen on not there was, in fact, a 17 legaI pnoblem. t4 15 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 Okay. a pnoblem A Who was naising concenns that thene may be a Iegal ? OSD. a That's Office A Office of the Secnetany of Defense. a DOD, okay. And did they naise concenns about possible violations of the Impoundment Act? A Yes. UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS I a 1 2 Was A There was. a When did that take place? A I don't recall exactly. a Was it on or about July 26th, a few days within the PCC? A About a week laten. a Okay. And did you panticipate in that meeting? A Yes. a Can you tell us what happened at that meeting? A Deputies endorsed that the pnincipals meet and necommend to 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 7t 13 of the funding, among othen things, but the only one that's within the scope of this meeting. the Pnesident the a 1.4 15 meeting 20 23 l,,Je the NSC even issued a statement of did. And the place agneed next steps wene to necommend a pnincipals ? A Yes. a Okay. 19 22 Do you know whethen A a L7 2t pnompt disbunsement conclusions aften the deputies meeting? 16 18 said the next step was going to be a deputies meeting. thene a deputies meeting? 3 12 So you 764 FIED Do you know whethen the pnincipals meeting even took ? A It did not. a Why not? UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS 1 165 IFIED [1:05 p.m.] I Bolton and MR. MORRISON: Ambassadon 2 discussed launching 3 Pnincipals Committee meeting, and as a nesult of that discussion, 4 opted not to a 6 it. do to the deputies meeting fon a minute, was thene provided at that time that meeting fon the hold? Going back any neason A I believe at that meeting OMB nepnesented that 8 9 Chief of Staff's Office was pnesent - - that the Pnesident 10 about connuption in Uknaine, 11 was doing enough to manage that a okay. t2 13 A a A a A A A a t7 18 19 20 2L 22 24 25 was concenned make sune that Uknaine connuption. the nepresentatives from OMB and the Chief To the best of my recollection, OMB was nepresented by Mike Duffey and the Chief of Staff was nepnesented by Rob Blain. 16 23 Who wene to and he wanted and the of Staff's Office at the deputies meeting? t4 15 we BY MR. NOBLE: 5 7 a up Was thene a separate PCC meeting on July 31st? Yes. Thene I was. Did you attend that chained Okay. It's at that PCC it. What was beyond Okay. PCC meeting? the topic of the meeting? the scope of this inquiny. Did the issue of the fneeze on Uknaine assistance meeting? A Yes. a Okay. Can you tell us what was discussed about the UNCLASS IEIED come UNCLASS L assistance? A a A a A a A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 What was Okay. r the status in getting And did anybody provide it neleased. a nepont at that meeting? did. What It did you neport? had not yet been neleased. Okay. Did you know why? At that point, we were still waiting fon an oppontunity fon pnincipals to engage the President. a Okay. Why did you and Ambassadon 10 11 166 I EIED convene the principals MS. VAN GELDER: 12 13 going to -- 14 that. But someone Bolton decide not to meeting? That's a deliberative pnocess that we ane not else is going to have it to decide if he can answen it is tnue that, as a nesult of that, thene was no meeting. 16 just state fon the necord, we don't necognize that deliberative process pnivilege. But 77 we 15 18 THE CHAIRMAN: You will add 2L 22 23 24 25 this point, let me this to the list that we can discusses at a bneak. MS. VAN GELDER: I appneciate that. BY MR. NOBLE: 19 20 know, at a At some point, did the idea of dnafting a Pnesidential decision memonandum on the fnozen Uknainian assistance anise? A Yes. a Whose idea was it to dnaft the memo? A Ambassadon Bolton. A Okay. Did he instnuct you to dnaft the memo on have youn UNCLASS I FIED L67 UNCLASSI F]ED L staff draft the memo? 7 A Yes. a Okay. Was the memo dnafted? A Yes. a Who dnafted it? A Alexanden Vindman was the pnincipal authon. I was the final authonity. It went through the nonmal NSC coondination pnocess to 8 prepane such a document 2 3 4 5 6 10 a A 11 a Okay. 9 12 And what was for the Pnesident. the recommendation in that memo? That he neLease the aid. necommendation Did Mn. Vindman, on Colone1 Vindman make that ? 15 A It was, at that point, the deputies-endonsed position. a Okay. And you agneed with that position? A Yes. 16 a Okay. 13 74 t7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 Pnesident Do you know whethen the memo was even pnovided to the ? A I do. a When was it -- was it pnovided? A No. a The memo was neven pnovided to the Pnesident? A No. a Okay. Why not? A Because Ambassadon Bolton decided not to. a Why didn't Ambassadon Bolton want to pnovide the memo to the UNCLASS ] F]ED UNCLASS I I Pnesident ? A I think I'11 let Ambassadon Bolton speak to that point when 2 3 he appeans befone you. list. MR. NOBLE: Okay. We'll add that to the list too, I guess. THE CHAIRMAN: Can I just ask fon clarification, but you do know MS. VAN GELDER: We can pUt 4 5 5 7 the neason why Ambassadon Bolton 8 memo this made MR. MORRISON: I do, Chairman. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. L4 15 that you awane t7 next day at Bedminsten? 19 20 27 22 23 24 25 Thank you. a Do you necall the date that the memo was finalized? A I mean -- so I would say it was final and neady fon the Pnesident on 15 August when Ambassadon Bolton initialed it. a Okay. Yeah, that was my question, so thank you. And ane 16 18 the decision not to pnovide that BY MR. NOBLE: 11 13 on the to the Pnesident? 9 t2 168 F]ED A a A a A a Ambassadon Bolton had a meeting with the Pnesident the Yes. Okay. What was that meeting about? Outside the scope of this discussion. It was about Afghanistan? lt's been neponted in the pness. Okay. Do you know who else attended pnincipals attended that meeting? A I do. UNCLASS I FIED that meeting, what othen 169 UNCLASS a A 1 2 Can you So I tell I FIED us? know some of them. I'm not going to -- I did not bnush 4 this detail in pnepaning to appean today. But I believe Genenal Dunfond panticipated by secune video teleconference. I believe Acting 5 Secnetany Shanahan 6 Secunity Advison did. 3 up on participated. I believe that - - I I know the National believe the taJhite House Chief of Staff did. 8 I believe the Secretany of State did. a And do you know whethen or not they discussed the ongoing 9 hold on the Uknainian assistance? 7 13 A I do. a Do you know what they discussed? Was it a discussion amongst themselves, on was it a discussion with the President? Was it a discussion amongst the pnincipals themselves, or was it discussion t4 between 10 11 L2 the pnincipals and the President? off the necond.] 15 IDiscussion L6 MR. MORRISON: t7 MR. NOBLE: Okay. Hold 18 IDiscussion off the recond.] So, I'm sonny. I on. BY MR. NOBLE: 19 20 A 0kay. I apologize. Yeah, so my question was, was thene a 2t discussion amongst the pnincipals about the Uknainian assistance, not 22 involving the Pnesident? We'11 just take 23 your 24 25 knowledge. A Yes. a Okay. And -UNCLASS I EIED it one step at a time. To UNCLASS I A 1 So let me 770 ElED step back, and I may, if I have the pnenogative, -- I to I 2 ask the count neponten 3 pneceding question 4 on not they discussed Uknaine assistance with the Pnesident at that 5 time 8 cornectly. Did you ask me am I know at -- we1I, one step at a time. awane Do you know whethen Bedminsten had a discussion about heand youn of whethen the pnincipals the Uknaine assistance? 11 MS. VAN GELDER: Among themselves. L2 MR. NOBLE: What's that? 13 MS. VAN GELDER: Among themselves. BY MR. NOBLE: t4 a Among themselves, yes. A I do know that they had a discussion among themselves. a Okay. And do you know whethen they naised that issue with 15 16 L7 18 make sune a I may have phrased it that way, so let's just A That's the way I a Yeah, Let's just make the necond cleanen. So do you 7 10 want ? 6 9 because the Pnesident at Bedminsten? A I do know that they did not. 19 a Okay. Do you know why not? A Because the other subject matten of that 20 2t 22 all the time. 23 a Okay. Do you know whether it meeting consumed was Ambassadon Bolton's 24 intention to naise the issue, given that he had just signed off on the 25 memo -UNCLASS I FIED 177 UNCLASS I FIED 5 A He was a -- at the meeting? A He wanted to be pnepaned to naise it if the oppontunity to pnesented itself. a Okay. And so, at that meeting, it ultimately -- that issue 6 did not come up on the 1 2 3 4 A a 7 8 9 10 A 11 72 Not with the Pnesident. Not with the Pnesident. is that when Ambassadon give the 16th? memo to the He decided And then, at Bolton decided not some to point theneafter, naise the issue on to Pnesident? not to naise it on the 16th because of the other subject matter. 16 a OkaY. A And we then pnoceeded to look fon anothen oppontunity to naise it. a Okay. And that's when you -- you said you and Ambassador L7 Bolton had a convensation, and the decision was made not to give the 18 memo 13 t4 15 to the Pnesident. A No. I said Ambassadon Bolton 20 I discussed whether on not to punsue a Pnincipals Committee meeting. And I said I was awane of 2L why Ambassadon Bolton opted 19 and not to pnovide the PDM to the Pnesident. 22 a 23 Did you take any steps, following Ambassadon Bolton's signing Okay. 24 on the memo, 25 again to tny to get this issue -- to tee ? UNCLASS ] FIED it up off for the President A Yes. a What steps did you take? A I pnoceeded to coondinate among my interagency peens to see L 2 3 4 if 5 the 5 Pnesident. 7 8 9 10 tt t72 FIED UNCLASS I we could same establish place at the when the night group of pnincipals would be in same time that we could get them in with the a Okay. And wene you even able to coondinate the pnincipals in that way to tee up a meeting? A No. a 0kay. Was it just a scheduling issue, or was thene some other issue? 13 A lust a scheduling issue. a OkaY. 74 Do you know whether Ambassadon Bolton even had a one-on-one 72 15 convensation with the Pnesident about the fnozen assistance aften 16 August 15th? Yes. 19 A a A 20 a What about Secnetany 77 18 Did he? Yes. of State Pompeo? Do you know whether 2t he even had a one-on-one meeting or another meeting with the Pnesident 22 about the Uknainian assistance after August 15th? 23 A Based on open-sounce reponting and, I that 24 Taylon's statement, 25 with the Pnesident whenein he took undenstand Secnetany Pompeo had a meeting Ambassadon UNCLASS I I believe, Ambassadon FIED Taylon's finst-penson UNCLASS 1 cable 3 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 L4 15 16 discuss the Uknalne topic with the Pnesident. a Okay. A No. 2 4 to ' 173 I EIED Do you know whethen on a Yeah. So Ambassadon not that in fact Taylon's memo, I believe, occunned? was tnansmitted A The finst-penson cable. a The finst-penson cable -- did I say "memo"? A Yes, sin. a I apologize. The cable, the finst-penson cab1e, was tnansmitted on August 29th. Is that night? A That sounds conrect. a Okay. And did you get a copy of it at that time? A r did. a A a A a Okay. Wene you on the distnibution? What did you do when you neceived a copy of the cable? No. Okay. 19 it with Ambassadon Bolton. Okay. And then you said that it's been publicly neponted that Secnetany of State Pompeo -- on Ambassadon Taylor said that 20 Secnetany 2L at the White L7 18 22 23 24 25 I neviewed it, and I shaned of State Pompeo took the memo to the White House, to a meeting House. A Yes. a Do you know when that meeting occunned? A No. a Okay. Do you know anything about that meeting, Iike UNCLASS I EIED what L74 UNCLASSI FIED 1 happened what Ambassadon Taylor said. Okay. a 4 5 that 6 Pnesident, 7 8 9 10 have any independent, pensonal knowledge the cable to the White House, met with the A I'm not tnying to be cute. I know -- a Yeah. A -- Secretany Pompeo has, wheneven he and the Pnesident ane in town at the same time, has a one-on-one lunch with the OkaY. 72 A Could 15 don't and a L4 So you Pompeo bnought L1. 13 meeting? A No. I'm not awane that the meeting occunned. I only have 2 3 at that awane it have come up Pnesident. in that occasion? Penhaps. I am not that it did on which lunch he bnought it up in, if even. a Okay. So youn only knowledge is just fnom what you nead in Ambassadon Taylon's statement 19 A Conrect. a -- that that meeting occunned? A Cornect. a Okay. 20 So, sticking with that cable, the idea, the genesis of that cable 15 L7 18 2L was Ambassadon 22 connect 23 24 25 Taylor's convensation with Ambassadon Bolton in Kyiv, ? A a That was the impetus The for sending the cable. impetus. Did you panticipate in that convensation between Ambassador Taylon and Ambassadon Bolton UNCLASS I FIED -- 175 UNCLASS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A A I EIED No. in Kyiv? Now, did you -Ambassadon Bolton's visit to Kyiv? A Yes. you helped pnepane fon a Okay. And, in doing so, did you speak with Ambassadon Taylon as pant of that pnepanation? A Yes. 1L a Okay. I want to go back to the text messages, if we could, and tunn to page 28. And if you go to August 27th at 7:34 a.n. -- these ane text messages between Bill Taylon and Kunt Volken. At 7:34' Bill Taylon t2 wnites, "Bol-ton said he talked to you and Gondon bniefly, nothing 8 9 10 13 L4 15 16 t7 18 19 specific. What should they talk about? Tim says Bolton wants to stay out of politics." I'm assuming "Tim" is a nefenence to you? A I would assume. a Do you necall a convensation with you conveyed that Ambassadon Bolton wanted A I don't necall a specific I would have 20 as something 2L to stay out of politics. 22 23 24 25 a A a And what said, Ambassadon Taylon where to stay out of politics? convensation, but that strikes because I me also explained to him I wanted did you mean by staying out of politics? to stay away fnom the Gondon channel. Did you also want to stay away fnom the Bunisma bucket of We wanted issues, as you've nefenned to them? UNCLASS I F]ED UNCLASS t76 IE]ED 3 A Yes. a Okay. And I believe you testified eanlien that you perceived -- on you believe that if Pnesident Zelensky wene to make 4 a public announcement about 5 that that would 5 night 1 2 investigating the have entangled him Bunisma bucket in U.S. domestic of issues, politics. Is that ? 10 A I became concenned about that. a So was that kind of the same concenn that you wene conveying to Ambassador Taylon that he is panaphnasing hene? A I don't necaLl pnecisely when I told Ambassadon Taylor that 71. Ambassadon L2 as a neasonable conclusion. 7 8 9 13 a L4 And 15 Bolton wants to stay out of politics, but that stnikes me Okay. the Bunisma bucket of issues, that you about duning youn was what Dn. HiIl had warned transition peniod. Is that night? 17 A Connect. a Okay. And it's fair to say also that the Bunisma bucket of 18 issues were neferenced in the Pnesident's July 25th call with President 79 Zelensky? 16 A It's 20 mone -- I mean, it nefenences content fnom 2t It's 22 Bunisma, 23 serven and CnowdStnike and those issues. mone -- the way I think about the Bunisma bucket the Uknainian finm, it's Hunten Biden, that cal1. of issues is it's it's the election 24 a Yeah. And at least sevenal of those things wene naised by 25 President Trump in his call with Pnesident Zelensky on July 25th, night? UNCLASS I FIED r77 UNCLASS I EIED 2 A a 3 So, on August 28th, Politico published an anticle about the U.S. 1 4 fneeze. 9 10 Wene you familian with saw it when it came that anticle? out and any numben of people sent it to me. a Okay. And I 7 8 Okay. A I 5 6 Yes. the Uknainians believe you seemed sunpnised about A I don't know that I wene concerned about it. a A a 11 L2 13 the announcement of the fneeze? said they wene sunpnised. They wene concenned about I know they it. Yes. Okay. Now, 1.4 testified eanlier that, in Wansaw, in pnepanation fon the Wansaw bi-lat I between Vice Pnesident believe you said that, aften it 15 Pence and Pnesident Ze1ensky, 15 known t7 the Vice Pnesident on helped his staff pnep the Vice Pnesident fon that 18 meeting? that Pnesident A I 19 made sune 20 the Vice Pnesident. 2t And I Tnump was made sune I not going to attend, You helped -- Ambassadon pnep Bolton conducted the bniefing of helped to make sune that he had all of the latest. that one of Vice Pnesident Biden's policy staffens 23 I think MR. MORRISON: WhAt did I SAY? 24 MS. VAN GELDER: BidCN. 25 MR. MORRISON: 22 became MS. VAN GELDER: Whoa. 0h, excuse me. UNCLASS I you'ne a little -- stayed up late watching the I F]ED UNCLASS I 1 2 game. I made sune that Vice Pnesident Pence's staff 3 on what we had seen 4 Zelensky in in our discussions, including with Pnesident Ukraine. 7 a Okay. And which staff A lennifen Wi1liams. 8 a 9 wene pnepaned based BY MR. NOBLE: 5 6 t78 F]ED Was memben was that? Keith Kellogg involved in pneparing the Vice Pnesident fon the bi-]at? 10 A I 11 a Okay. 72 In advance can only speculate that he was. of the Wansaw meeting, do you know whethen the 13 Pnesident knew about the convensation that President L4 Pnesident Zelensky on July 25th? 15 A I believe he did. 15 L7 18 19 20 pnovided and had on his plane a copy of the 22 23 a 24 25 with a Do you know whethen he had been provided a copy of the MEMCON? A I don't have finsthand knowledge. a Do you have secondhand knowledge of that? A I have a -- I have a faint necollection that he had been a 0n the plane to tnlansaw? A 0n his aincnaft, yes. 2t Tnump had had Vice MEMCON Okay. Do you know who pnovided MEMCON. the Vice Pnesident with the on would have pnovided the Vice Pnesident with the A I mean, no. His staff would have contacted the UNCLASS I FIED NSC MEMCON? Executive I79 UNCLASS I EIED 1 Secnetany and asked fon a copy fon the Vice Pnesident. 4 is it typical that if the Vice Pnesident is meeting with a foneign head of state that MEMCONs of necent convensations between the President and that head of state would be included in a 5 bniefing book fon the Vice 2 3 I a mean, Pnesident? 6 A Yes. 7 a Okay. Did you ever get a copy of the bniefing 8 the Vice Pnesident neceived fon the A No, but I helped lennifen 9 LL Okay. a 10 Do you know bi-lat? pnepane pants of it. whether she included the A No. told As I said, I believe -- I the Vice Pnesident 13 she t4 usually the case that 15 Pnesident would neceive a copy 16 the next day in his MEMCON from the me when faint necollection that neviewed it on the plane. And it's have a thene's a head-of-state phone ca11, the Vice of the MEMCON as soon as it's available PDB. a Okay. What's "PDB," fon the necond? A The Pnesident's daily bniefing fnom the Intelligence 77 18 Community. 20 a 2L So OkaY. I want to ask you some mone questions about the convensation to 22 that 23 on the sidelines of the Wansaw bi-Iat. 24 in Ambassadon 25 that July 25th call? t2 19 Wansaw package Ambassadon Sondland neponted So -- you that he had with Andney And I just want Yenmak to find that Taylon's statement. Page 10. and you testified about UNCLASS this eanlien in questloning I FIED by my UNCLASS I just teIl us, when did this convensation between 1 colleague. 2 Ambassadon Sondland and Mn. Yermak 3 between 4 Zelens ky ? 5 6 7 8 9 A So can you his delegation depanted, Pnesident Zelensky and his delegation departed, and 15 16 77 18 19 20 2L 22 some of the Lessen people stayed behind. There ane no lessen people. Thene ane other people a left behind, right? A a A Mene montals. Mene montals. So who else was pnesent? Secnetany Penny and a numben of cleanly necall Mn. Who his aides. else And nemained? I only can Yenmak and Ambassadon Sondland and myself. a Did you see Ambassadon Sondland speaking to Andney Yenmak? A r did. a Was anybody else speaking with them at the same time? A Not that I can neca1l. a Okay. Do you know whethen Ambassadon Sondland even told 23 anyone 24 Yenmak? 25 long after the bi-1at a 0h, it was 1ike, it happened night afterward? A So the Vice President and his delegation left the facility -- this is on the second floon, mezzanine level of the Wansaw Manniott. And it was in one of the meetings nooms. And so the Vice LL L4 How About 5 minutes. Pnesident and 13 occun? the Vice Pnesident -- oun Vice President and Pnesident 10 L2 180 FIED else about the convensation that he'd just had with A I do not know. UNCLASS I FIED Andney UNCLASS t 2 3 4 5 6 7 a So, when he neponted A I mean, walked oven to me, said, wnote, and you say money would Gondon litenaIly what we talked about. the Bunisma investigation. That's what Ambassadon that's telling 15 Mn. Yenmak, was 16 the statement to obtain Taylon connect. A No. I said I disagnee. I recall me that the secunity not come until Pnesident Zelensky committed to L4 2t this is No, Ambassadon Sondland told Mn. Yenmak a t2 20 you and Ambassadon BY MR. NOBLE: punsue 19 just MS. VAN GELDER: Ambassadon Taylon? 11 18 was a Okay. And duning that convensation, as Ambassadon Sondland recounted it, he told Mn. Yermak that the secunity -- assistance L7 it they bnoke thein convensation, and 10 13 to you, Sondland speaking? 8 9 it 181 I FIED Ambassadon Sondland that what he conveyed to the Uknainian Pnesidential advisor, that the pnosecuton genenal would be sufficient to a 0kay. And I neLease make of the aid. believe you testified that that caused you concenn. A Yes. a Is that night? Why did it cause you concenn? A Because, at that point, I saw an obstacle to my goal, as 22 dinected to me, to get the process to suppont the President making the 23 decision 24 assistance. 25 to nelease the secunity assistance -- secunity-secton a Okay. Why did you think that Ambassadon Sondland's UNCLASS I FIED pnoposal UNCLASS 7 L82 I FIED to you achieving youn policy goal? A I mean, it was the finst time something like this would be an impediment 2 had been 3 injected as a condition on the nelease of the assistance. So it 4 not something 5 how do we 6 that it I tracking as pant of oun pnocess fon calculating had been get the Pnesident the infonmation he needs to was within Amenican a 8 So Ambassadon Taylon, on 10 also the Okay. first the top of page 11, says that this was time that he had heand that the secunity assistance and So ane you saying 12 heand anyone say 13 to 15 18 that this was the finst time that you'd ever that the nelease the secunity assistance was going be conditioned on the Bunisma bucket investigations? A Yes. a Okay. And did you neport what Ambassadon Sondland told you 74 77 the decision not just the White House meeting was conditioned on the investigation. LL 15 make intenest to nelease the assistance. 7 9 was to anyone? A a A Yes. Who did you nepont it to? 23 it to Ambassadon Bo1ton. And when I got back to the States, I neponted it to NSC Legal lohn Eisenberg, Michael ElIis. a Okay. And when did you nepont it to Ambassadon Bolton? A About an houn on two after the debniefing by Ambassadon 24 Sondland occunned. 19 20 27 22 25 WeII, beyond Ambassadon Taylon, I a Okay. And what was his neaction? UNCLASS I FIED neported 183 UNCLASS I A His neaction was: L F]ED Stay out of it, bnief the lawyens. a Okay. Did you undenstand what he meant by "stay out of it"? A Fainly plain -- plain meaning. 2 3 a A a 4 5 What was Stay out of it. 7 night? And he's saying, stay out of it. So what do you take that to be, in terms of the instnuction to you as 8 to 6 9 He's youn supenion, this issue? A Continue not to be engaged in this panallel tnack. how to handle 27 a Okay. And did you think that was appropriate advice? A Yes. a t^Jhv? A trleIl, it componted with my instincts. a And what wene youn instincts? A To stay out of this paralle1 tnack. a Okay. Fain enough. And I believe you testified eanlien that Ambassadon Bolton told you to nepont it to the lawyens to make sune the lawyens wene tracking it, connect? A Connect. a But that just confirmed youn own instinct that you should 22 repont 10 11 t2 13 L4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 23 24 25 this to the lawyens. Is that night? A Connect. a Okay. Why did you think the lawyens needed to be awane that Ambassadon Sondland was telling the Uknainians that the nelease of the UNCLASS I EIED UNCLASS to be conditioned 1. assistance was going 2 Bunisma-bucket-nelated investigations? 3 A Because we 4 fon me. 5 the Pnesident -- My nole -- my nole is to repont it make sune NSC 784 ] FIED on their announcement of the -- Ambassador Sondland up to Legal my doesn't wonk chain of command, make sure -- the issue with Eisenbeng and 7 Ellis is they'ne dual-hatted; they'ne aLso in the White House Counsel's Office. So they ane not just the NSC lega1 advisors; they ane the 8 Pnesident's attonneys as White House counsel. 6 9 And we wanted 10 I will 11 Ambassadon 12 13 1.4 say I wanted that thene was a necond of what -- to make sune to make sune, because Bolton wanted to make sune -- I I don't know precisely what wanted to the lawyens, that thene was a necord of was doing, to pnotect the Pnesident. a And did you to make sure, in going what Ambassador Sondland know whethen Ambassador Sondland was wonking 15 the dinection of anyone else 16 Uknainians so when he was conveying this message at to the ? L7 A 18 a At that time. But, laten on, I He did not ho, I did not. believe you -- Ambassadon 19 Taylon necounts some convensations that Ambassadon Sondland had with 20 the Pnesident concenning these investigations. 2t 22 23 24 25 A I'm sonny. Please nepeat that. a I'll -- maybe if we just go in orden, it'11 make mone sense. A Okay. a So let's fast-forwand to the Septemben 7th call. I believe that's on page L2 of Ambassadon Taylon's opening UNCLASS I FIED statement. So thene, 185 UNCLASS ] F]ED down. It says, 2 days laten, on Septemben 1 it's the third 2 7th, 3 descnibed a phone convensation eanlien 4 Sondland and Pnesident Trump. 6 Taylon had a convensation with you Ambassadon And 5 panagnaph let me just stop you there. How did you know about this convensation between Ambassadon Sondland and Pnesident Trump? A I believe because 8 MS. VAN GELDER: 9 MR. MORRISON: He, Ambassadon Sondland, to let me know he called me not long aften -- He? called me L2 a 13 confinm L4 A of it. Okay. And was that Ambassador this one Sondland of the ca11s that you wene able to did have with Pnesident 16 No. going on that morning. 18 a 19 Ambassador Taylon says Okay. that you said that he -- you -- 20 sinking feeling aften leanning about this convensation 2L Sondland. Acconding to you, Pnesident 22 that 23 that Pnesident 25 Tnump? a You wene not able to confinm it one way on the anothen? A I don 't know that I tnied to. I think I had j ust othen things 15 24 not long aften BY MR. NOBLE: LL L7 which you that day between Ambassadon 7 10 in he was not asking for a quid Tnump told had fnom Ambassadon Ambassadon Sondland pno quo, but Pnesident Tnump did insist to a micnophone and say he is opening investigations of Biden and 20!6 interfenence and that Pnesident Zelensky should want to do this himself. Zelensky go UNCLASS I EIED a UNCLASS Is that L 2 an accunate 186 I EIED necitation of what you told Ambassador Taylon on Septemben 7th? 3 A 4 a Okay. YeS. Do you neca1l anything else about the convensation Taylor? Did you tell him anything else about what 5 with 6 Ambassador Sondland and Pnesident Tnump had discussed? A I mean, not to my by Ambassadon Taylon is connect. 7 8 Ambassadon a Okay. 9 Do you knowledge. that you had with Ambassadon TT his convensation with the A 13 jog I 'm sonny, I my memory. believe what's nelated hene necall anything else about the convensation 10 t2 I Sondland when he was telling you about Pnesident? don't. If thene ' s mone, please ask; maybe it ' 11 But no. 19 a No, I mean, I'm asking you what you necall. Was this A I think this is an accunate netelling of what my convensation was like with Gondon as I nelated it to Ambassadon Taylon. a How long was youn convensation with Ambassadon Sondland? A Not very long. a So you just don't necall anything else that Ambassadon 20 Sondland t4 15 15 77 18 27 22 23 told A I you duning that phone call? do not. I apologize, I absent, I think, when you covened this the finst time around. THE CHAIRMAN: Can 24 MR. MORRISON: SiN. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: If I I if I could. And understand youn testimony, UNCLASS I FIED in the was L87 UNCLASSIEIED L convensation with Ambassadon Sondland, you know, 5 minutes aften 2 talked with Mn. Yenmak, 3 conveyed 4 the -- was it the Attonney General? to Mn. Yermak Ambassadon Sondland you that he had that the militany aid wouldn't be neleased until 5 MR. MORRISON: The pnosecuton general. 6 THE 7 told he CHAIRIvIAN: pnosecuton genenal announced these Burisma bucket investigations. Is that night? 8 MR. MORRISON: Yes, sin. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: In a subsequent convensation with r.0 Mn. Sondland that my colleague was asking about that you would laten LT discuss with Ambassadon Taylon, did Ambassadon Sondland nepnesent that t2 13 just the pnosecuton genenal but it had to Zelensky who committed to these investigations? it wasn't MR. MORRISON: L4 15 Yes, sin. be Pnesident That had happened a couple days eanlier. THE CHAIRMAN: 16 So, at some point following the Wansaw L7 convensation you had with Ambassadon Sondland, Ambassadon Sondland 18 told 19 fon the pnosecuton genenal to 20 to 2L you that the President had conveyed make to this him nepnesentation, that enough it had come fnom Pnesident Zelensky? MR. MORRISON: No, sin. As I recall, I had, I think on Septemben 22 1st and on Septemben 2nd, convensations with 23 Septemben 24 nelated 25 that it wasn't I 1st, Ambassadon Taylon. 0n I nelated to Ambassadon Taylon what Ambassadon Sondland to me of his convensation with Mn. Yenmak. believe that same day on eanty the next morning UNCLASS I FIED -- pant of the UNCLASS I 188 FIED 3 difficulty in nemembening this is my phone and email wene set to eastenn time, and I was in Wansaw, and Ambassadon Taylon was in Kyiv. So, in tenms of tnying to necneate by email when I was setting up these ca11s, 4 it's a little challenging. 7 2 Ambassadon Sondland had 5 5 Taylor to inform 7 Sondland, scnewed up 8 Ambassadon Taylon MR. MORRISON: -- THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Ambassadon convensation about screwing L4 Pnesident Zelensky, not 15 about 19 Taylor related that to would me the next let me just bneak this down a bit. The up, that the statement had to come fnom just the pnosecuton genenal, that? Did Ambassadon how did you leann Sondland te11 you that? MR. MORRISON: Ambassadon Taylon told me that on Monday, September 2nd. nelating to you what Ambassadon THE CHAIRMAN: And he was Sondland had told him? 20 MR. MORRISON: Yes. 2L THE CHAIRMAN: 22 0h. And Okay. Let me yield back to Mn. Nob1e. did Ambassadon Taylon te11 you whene Ambassadon Sondland that the statement 23 had leanned 24 not just the pnosecuton genenal? MR. MORRISON: He did not. 25 -- he, Ambassadon So 13 18 Ambassadon day. L2 17 he scnewed up to THE CHAIRMAN: ANd 10 16 that spoken -- in telling that to Mn. Yenmak, that it need to be coming fnom the Pnesident of Uknaine. And 9 LL called aften I'd had to UNCLASS I come fnom Pnesident Zelensky, FIED 189 UNCLASS]FIED THE 1 CHAIRMAN: Okay. And did Ambassadon Sondland even convey to felt that he had spoken mistakenly in thinking that the 2 you why he 3 pnosecuton genenal's statement would be enough? did not. 4 MR. MORRISON: He 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. BY MR. NOBLE: 6 a 7 Fon clanity -- hopefully we can find some clanity -- I 8 believe you testified you had two separate convensations with 9 Ambassador Sondland A a 10 11 after Septemben 1st. Is that night? That sounds connect. Yes. So one we know fnom Ambassadon 7th. Do you know Taylon's statement that the date of the othen one, the L2 occurned on Septemben 1,3 othen convensation that you had with Ambassadon Sondland? Was it t4 befone on aften Septemben 7th? A a A 15 16 t7 18 79 So I talked to Ambassadon it Sondland on September Lst. Uh-huh. And then I talked again to Ambassadon Sondland on Septemben 7th. a Okay. So it was just the in-penson meeting in Warsaw and 20 then the telephone convensation on September 7th. Those ane the two 21. convensations 22 23 24 25 that you've been refenning to? A Yes. a Okay. lust want to make sune we'ne not A Fon Ambassadon Sondland. a Yeah. Wene thene any othens? UNCLASS I EIED UNCLASS I A With Ambassadon L 190 FIED Sondland? a With Ambassadon Sondland in this timefname. A Septemben? a Yeah, like, after September 1st, aften Warsaw. A None fon which I have records. That's not to say that 2 3 4 5 he 6 didn't -- I 7 ceIl 8 occun and they wenen't fonmally scheduled so they weren't on my calendar 9 so I can't repnoduce for you that they occunned. had made the mistake phone numben. So, I think the MR. NOBLE: 11 THE CHAIRMAN: t2 So you had one in-penson Yeah. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: And what 18 19 a foIlowup. discussion with Ambassadon Sond1and, and then you had a phone call with him sevenal days laten. MR. MORRISON: YES. \7 chainman has would Sonny. 74 16 Sondland my wonk again, sometimes these conversations 10 13 of givingAmbassadon did Ambassadon Sondland tell you in the call? phone MR. MORRISON: that he had just 7th phone call -- he told me he In the phone cal1, he told off the phone -- the September had just gotten off the phone with the gotten me Pnesident. 24 this because he actually made the comment that it was easier fon him to get a hold of the Pnesident than to get a hold of fi€, which 1ed me to nespond, "We11, the Pnesident doesn't wonk fon Ambassadon Bo1ton; I do, " to which Ambassadon Sondland nesponded, "Does Ambassadon Bolton know that?" But that's why I have a vivid 25 necollection of this. 20 21 22 23 I rememben UNCLASS I FIED 191 I FTED UNCLASS to tell what he had discussed with the President. 1 And he wanted 2 THE CHAIRMAN: And what 3 MR. MORRISON: He me told did he te}I me, as you? is nelated hene in Ambassadon 4 Taylon's statement, that there was no quid pno quo, but Pnesident 5 Zelensky must announce the opening of the investigations and he should 6 want to do it. Okay. I think that clanifies things then. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: 8 So, in Wansaw, Ambassadon Sondland telIs the pnosecuton genenal has to make 9 to Yenmak you that he's conveyed these statements. He 10 Iaten conveys to you aften tatking with the Pnesident several days later 11 that the nequinement is actually that Zelensky has to 72 investigations. 13 L4 MR. MORRISON: Yes . And I had alneady heand commit to these that from Ambassadon Taylon. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 16 And L7 MR. MORRISON: I'm fine, sin. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. The time is with the minonity fon 19 22 23 24 25 Unless you need a bneak, we'11 - - 45 minutes. BY MR. CASTOR: 20 2L that's the end of oun time. a You said when you and googled finst heand the name "Bunisma" you went it? A r did. a Wene thene any othen -- did A I did not. UNCLAS S you google "CnowdStnike"? ] FIED UNCLASS L 2 3 t92 I FIED a Did you know anything about CrowdStnike at that point? A What I necaII Dn. Hill discussing with me was not CrowdStnike but the 2016 senven. And I did not know what that meant. 7 a Did you google that topic? A No. I found enough to undenstand the general idea of what she was talking about when I googled "Buni.sma." a Okay. Was thene anything else that you looked into? I 8 asked you 9 black ledgen issue relating to Paul Manafont, and you said you wene 4 5 5 10 at the end of the last nound whethen you wene awane of this not. A I 77 was not. a Okay. Wene thene any othen issues that you looked into? A Not at the time that I googled "Bunisma." a Okay. Subsequent to that? A Subsequent to it, you know, I looked mone into understanding L2 13 L4 15 -- trying to the CrowdStnike issue was, tnying 16 what L7 to 18 intenested in what these things wene when I knew the Pnesident naised 19 them. 20 2t undenstand what undenstand what a the 2016 senven was. Obviously, I Did you even look into any of the issues nelating to A No. 23 a Okay. Did you even look lnto any of the 25 the prosecutor genenal, Lutsenko? 22 24 became mone that nelated to A No. tweets news accounts on Ambassador Yovanovitch befone hen UNCLASS I FIED recalI? 193 UNCLASS I FIED 2 a Wene you awane of the issues preceding her necall? A No. I was awane she was necalled; I was not aware of 3 a 1 4 Okay. Vindmani A I think I 5 did you have any discussions about those topic And with Colonel aneas had convensations 6 Mn. Enath about, why 7 Why 8 nesponded, 9 necalled ean1y. 10 11 L2 13 1.4 15 16 is essentially, a Okay. A Yes. And so that was the finst you leanned of it? that he had authonitative OkaY. 20 Duning youn 25 "Because Ambassadon Yovanovitch had been into any of these issues? A No, not that I necall. a 24 that's -- they both looked 19 23 Taylon not the actual U.S. Ambassador? a Did they nelate anything else to you about that situation? A Not that I necall. a Did Colonel Vindman even teII you that he had, you know, 18 22 Vindman and " 0n 2t is BiIl with CoIoneI he the CDA, the Change d'Affaines? And a A L7 why. sounces on these issues? No. tnansition, Dn. HilI bnought up issues of nelating to Colonel judgment Vindman? A Yes. a Can you elabonate on that at all? A First, I just want to be clean that Alex is a patniot who has litenally bled for this country. UNCLASS ] FIED 794 UNCLASS I P]ED But, in 1 my expenience in govennment, not evenybody is cut out fon often find with - - and these people ane on 2 the policy pnocess. 3 the NSC. 4 can't get out of the analytical nole into developing policy. State 5 Department pensonnel who 5 wniting neponting cables can't get out of that role into making policy. A1ex, I think, was get who get detailed that they pnomoted based on their pnoficiency in is cut out fon the policymaking pnocess, and in that categony. Did you even have any discussions with him when you took over a 9 10 often find with CIA analysts So not evenybody 7 8 You You the job about youn expectations fon him neponting to you? 13 A No. At that point, I had the concenns naised by Dn. Hill and Mn. Enath. I also had been advised by othen pensonnel within the dinectonate of thein concenns about Alex. And I set about to keep an t4 eye on Alex and fonm my own conclusions. \L L2 18 a Okay. And what wene youn conclusions when you formed them? A That he did not always exencise the best judgment in tenms of the policymaking pnocess and -- the policy pnocess. a Did he have an undenstanding that you wene in his chain of 19 command 15 16 L7 ? 20 A Yes. 2L a Wene 22 of command and there any instances didn't whene he went keep you looped in? 23 A We1l, we've talked about one. 24 a Can you 25 IDiscussion -- outside of his chain was this a pensistent off the necond.] UNCLASS I FIED pnoblem? 195 UNCLASS I EIED 2 I mean, I think I'm -- as counsel advised, I think I'm going to limit it to the one instance that was within the 3 scope 1 MR. MORRISON: Yeah, of the inquiry today. that unusual, though? MS. VAN GELDER: That answens the question. With all MR. CASTOR: 4 5 Okay. if Was due we'ne only dealing with what happened in 6 nespect, Mn. Caston, 7 Ukraine, saying "was that the only time" answens a question as to 8 whethen thene wene othen BY MR. CASTOR: 9 a 10 11 committees Did you see Colonel Vindman's opening statement befone the ? A Yes. a In his opening statement, he talks about his -- how he views L2 13 L4 times, which goes down that slippery slope. the chain of command as being veny impontant. Did you see that? 18 A I saw his statement. a Okay. And the one instance that we know of nelated to Uknaine, he did not follow the chain of command. And so I guess the question is, was that consistent with youn expenience with him on was 19 that 15 16 L7 20 unusual? A As I mentioned, Dn. Hill's management and leadenship 27 is diffenent than mine. In my opinion, 22 when she was 23 24 25 in change some bad that a Did you tny to connect them? A I set about tnying to connect. a Okay. What wene those bad habits? UNCLASS I FIED style habits had been cneated UNCLASS I 196 FlED 2 A I did not find that thene was the habit of keeping the senior dinector in change of things -- keeping the senion dinecton infonmed 3 about things that the senion dinecton should've been infonmed about. 1 8 a Okay. And did that pnove pnoblematic at any point? A Yes. a Can you describe? MS. VAN GELDER: It is something that we're going to say that going into it would go down the idea of whethen on not there was any 9 numon 4 5 6 7 or anything about who he talked to that might lead to his 10 speculation of who he thought the whistleblowen was, which we ane not 11 going L2 13 to answen because it's MR. SWALWELL: Mn. Chainman, THE REPORTER: Yes. 15 MS. VAN GELDER: 16 MR. SWALWELL: ThAnKS. 20 2L 22 23 24 25 I'm fnom Boston. They get everything. BY MR. CASTOR: L7 19 just fon the recond, did the count neporter get that? 74 18 outside the scope. a Did you have any concenns with his tnustwonthiness? A No. a I believe you did mention thene -- was thene any instances tried to access infonmation outside of his A Not that I could confinm firsthand. a Okay. But you heand that secondhand? whene he A a lane? Yes. And can you teI1 us anything about that, or UNCLASS ] FIED does that fal1 UNCLASS t the same objection? unden 2 A 3 MS. VAN GELDER: We'ne making a 5 6 become 7 had 9 10 Yes. the same objection. BY MR. CASTOR: 4 8 L97 I FIED a The issues of judgment that Dn. nelated to you, did they -- wene you able to connect those issues of judgment aften you chance to wonk with him as his direct A It was a wonk in pnogness. a Uh-huh. And did that wonk in stalled Hill nepont? pnogness at any point get ? 16 that'l1 sta1l it. At what point did you detenmine that you wanted to -- I think you said it was mid-August when you determined that these events might Iead to congnessional heanings on something of that sont? A I don't know that I said they would lead to congnessional heanings. I think I said it just became clean to me, as f considened 77 these mattens, that 18 that I 19 continue to be focused on the mission, and that 20 nespect to AIex, because 11 L2 13 L4 15 A a We1I, I'm resigning fnom the NSC. So wanted to, this could wind up becoming, you know, a problem as best I I cou1d, shield my people fnom so they could was I felt eanly in, with tnying to help menton AIex, that I thought 23 it best fon me to pensonally handle the secunity assistance issue secunity-secton assistance. a Okay. Wene thene othen elements of the Uknaine pontfolio 24 that you also handled sepanately fnom him? 2L 22 25 A One. UNCLASS I FIED 198 UNCLASS I 2 a What was that? A I can't speak to it 3 a 4 MR. CASTOR: 1 5 I of a classification MR. MORRISON: scope want to make sune that oun Membens get a chance can't speak to it, is it because issue? It's of this inquiny. a classification issue, and So probably mone MR. MEADOIaJS: Mn. Monnison, 10 11 Okay. MR. ZELDIN: When you say you 8 9 hene. to ask questions. 6 7 FIED I want the beyond it's the beyond the scope. to get pensonal fon just a few seconds and expness two things. Qne L2 is, when we knew that we were going to have this deposition starting at 8 o'clock, I think it was -- the question 13 this L4 we1l, why so eanly and why 8 o'cIock? And the neason that was given 15 was nea1Iy because you wanted 16 family, and I just want to applaud that. monning MR. MORRISON: Thank L7 to you, make sune you wene available fon was, youn Congnessman. 19 It just -- in this city, so many times, family gets put on the back burnen. And I just want to -- I just want to say thank 20 you. 18 MR. MEADOWS: you, 2t MR. MORRISON: Thank 22 MR. MEADOWS: Secondly, Congnessman. I think it's a shame that you'ne going be leaving the NSC. You've been dinect with youn answens today. 23 to 24 You've been pnecise with youn answens. And 25 the best in youn future caneer, but I candidly wish you all it is the Federal UNCLASS I F]ED Govennment's loss 199 UNCLASS I 1 that you'ne leaving. And so, on those two pensonal notes, 2 littIe bit anea. It's a 4 in the meeting with the Vice President 5 Is that connect? on one MR. MORRISON: 7 MR. MEADOWS: And to been covened; 9 Ambassadon Sondland and we've in to just cincle that you wene back actually in Wansaw. know they've and Pnesident Zelensky so, in those convensations - - and 8 convensations want Yes, sin, it is. 6 I just my I undenstanding 3 10 FIED want Wansaw. make sune I'm clear. I Because we've got got the Vice Pnesident actually having Is that connect? Yes, sir. 11 MR. MORRISON: 12 MR. MEADOWS: And as you wene in those meetings with the Vice 13 Pnesident and Pnesident Zelensky, did investigating the Bidens come t4 up MR. MORRISON: 15 16 at all? In the bi-Iat between Vice President Pence and Pnesident Zelensky? L7 MR. MEADOWS: Yeah. 18 MR. MORRISON: No, 19 MR. MEADOWS: it did not. Did Pnesident Zelensky at that point know that the 20 aid was being withheld? 2t MR. MORRISON: He 22 MR. MEADOWS: And so did, sin. there was no indication fnom the Vice 24 at all that the aid was being held up, waiting fon an investigation into the Bidens on Bunisma on -- he didn't bning that 25 up 23 Pnesident at all? UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS I at all, sin. 7 MR. MORRISON: Not 2 MR. MEADOWS: And you'ne 3 MR. MORRISON: One hundned pencent, 4 MR. MEADOWS: Because lot 200 FIED I confident of that? sir. think, as, you know, we'ne heaning would about what Ambassadon Sondland said and may have said and 5 a whole 6 may have heard and 7 briefing with the Vice Pnesident, in your -- go ahead. I just -- I yet in youn clean. I did not pne-bnief the Vice Pnesident. Okay. So you actually helped thein staff was pne-bnief -- did you prepane thein staff? MR. MORRISON: L2 13 I MR. MEADOWS: 10 LL hope may have happened, and Sin, I want to 1et you finish youn question, but MR. MORRISON: 8 9 directions that pnepaning I prepaned thein briefing matenials fon the Vice Pnesident. MR. MEADOWS: And 74 15 being veny precise 16 misspeaking, and L7 So, in is thein staff, and I assisted them in that gets back to the othen point about you in all of this. You were able to connect me on I appneciation the precision. that, with that same degree of precision, do you think that that President Zelensky left the meeting with the Vice 18 thene 19 Pnesident with an undenstanding fnom the Vice Pnesident that the aid 20 was somehow conditioned upon an 2L Bidens any way investigation into Bunisma on the at all? sin. 22 MR. MORRISON: No, 23 MR. MEADOI^,IS: And 24 MR. MORRISON: One hundned pencent, 25 MR. MEADOWS: With you'ne 100 percent confident of that? that, again, I just UNCLASS I EIED sir. want to say thank you, and 201 UNCLASS 1 I FIED I'11 yield to another Memben. you, sin. 2 MR. MORRISON: Thank 3 MR. MEAD0WS: Mn. Monnison, can colleague -- so did the pause of aid 4 my 5 the discussion between I on MR. MORRISON: 7 MR. MEADOWS: the hold on aid come up duning came up; they knew it was on 8 hold. 9 Pnesident's point of view in that meeting that you witnessed 10 And yet thene was not a condition placed on that MR. MORRISON: L2 MR. MEADOWS: the Vice Conrect, sin. Okay. I'11 yield back. BY MR. CASTOR: 13 a L4 Colonel Vindman's tenune at the NSC, he's on a 1-yean tenm, followed by a second 1-yean tenm? Ane you awane? A 16 L7 fnom a pensonally? 11 15 that the Vice Pnesident and Pnesident Zelensky? It did, sin. And so it actually 6 ask one followup question To be honest, I don't know. I think he might have been on 2-year onders oniginally. a 18 Okay. Was thene any discussion about maybe having him move 24 to a diffenent pant of govennment or netunn to the Anmy? A Um -a If it wasn't a fit? A So, oniginally, Alex was not bnought in to handle Uknaine. He was bnought in to handle Russia. This pnecedes me. But there wene othen staffing -- I'11 call them "snafus" that wound up leading to 25 excess covenage on Russia, below the nequined covenage on 19 20 2L 22 23 on UNCLASS I FIED Uknaine. And UNCLASS I '). 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 TL L2 so Alex was asked a Wene to 202 FIED handle the Ukraine/Belanus/Moldova pontfolio. there any tnips to these countnies in the July 25th that Colonel Vindman was scheduled Bolton that we had from the G-7 L4 BeIarus, Moldova, to Wansaw. And, in 15 the seat on the plane and the hotel expenses 16 were no L7 I did not think it 18 come oven 19 pneparation, 20 he needed fon successful 23 24 25 to tnavel on? a And what was the neason given that he was not included? A I did not think his presence was nequired. We had an aincnaft fon 22 since A No. a Wene thene any trips to these countnies? A Yes. a And was he excluded fnom tnavel fon any neason? A He was not excluded. He just was not included. a Okay. Did he ask to be included? A He did. 13 2L last -- Ambassadon A a A estimation, -- was it G-7 in the taxpayens' interest to sepanately on commencial ain when, by we could make sune that Ambassadon Uknaine, was not wonth and, fnankly, thene hotel rooms available in Biannitz -- at the a Okay. decision my to ' to bning him. pay fon him to you know, good Bolton had the matenial visits. Did ColoneI Vindman give you any feedback about that ? Yes. And what fonm did the feedback take? He pensonally appealed to me. UNCLASS ] FIED 203 UNCLASS]F]ED a Okay. Did he send you an email? A I don't necall an email. I necall an in-penson 1 2 3 convensation. 4 a Okay. And did the convensation get heated? 5 A a And did you anticulate the neasons to him? A Yes. a And did he accept them? A I don't know if he accepted them, but he didn't have a choice. a Okay. And did he even expness to you that he felt cut out 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 L4 No. of, you know, aneas that were, YoU know, within his policymaking? A Yes. a A And what wene those concenns He was concenned tnip, he would be seen -- discussions, the 16 because he would be seen by 18 he would be less a And did you think that was the case? A I thought the neasons I had fon not including him outweighed his concenns. 20 a 2L MR. CASTOR: Yes, 22 MR. IORDAN: Thank you, Steve. 23 Mn. Monnison, did he make an appointment? Did he walk 25 effective the intenagency as not being nelevant. 19 24 you? that, by not being included in certain 15 t7 that he nelated to office? OkaY. Mr. Did you go see MR. MORRISON: Jondan. into youn him? I think he walked into my office. UNCLASS ] E]ED He said what UNCLASS to talk about. I said I 1 he wanted 2 appointment. And I 3 appointment. 5 expness some displeasune 6 MR. MORRISON: YCs. 7 MR. IORDAN: So 8 would you descnibe busy. I asked him to make an into your office was common or that on other occasions and at decisions you had made neganding this happened sevenal him? times? How it? MR. MORRISON: So 9 was made sune John Enath was pnesent when we had MR. IORDAN: Did he walk 4 204 ] FIED I had an open doon, unless I was busy, and so 11 it was not uncommon fon my team to walk in. Depending upon the issue, I would te1I them to come back because fon whatever neason I wanted L2 to 10 -- MR. IORDAN: But you 13 L4 have them come back didn't have a policy -- so people could walk in 15 MR. MORRISON: Yes. 16 MR. IORDAN: -- L7 If 18 you always L9 make an appointment? 20 MR. MORRISON: and talk to you about concerns, pant of youn team. time permitted, you'd deal with the concenns at that time, on would then -- or is that not the case? Would you always say, no, WeII, in the matten of Alex and the 2L example, on the question about being excluded, 22 enough to know, on trip, fon I've been around long potential pensonnel actions, you want a witness. 23 MR. IORDAN: Okay. 24 MR. MORRISON: So 25 MR. JORDAN: Did you do I made sune he came back when I had a witness. that with othen membens of UNCLASS I FIED youn team? 205 UNCLASS 1 2 3 I FIED I did not have complaints fnom othen membens of my team. So, sin, the answen is no. MR. JORDAN: So, I mean and I, like you, Mr. Monnison, I MR. MORRISON: 5 to oun countny and the sacnifice he has made. But I think in the last -- or since you've 6 been hene 7 of judgment, that 8 the chain of command. 9 guess, 4 appneciate the senvice Colonel Vindman has given to today, you've talked about Colonel Vindman. Thene was issues he openated outside Was his lane. He youn use youn language, was not included on centain tnips. of Uknaine that you kept him nestnicted fnom being And thene was an anea 1.1 a pant of, and you said you couldn't get into that. 13 L4 -- did talk too much? MR. MORRISON: I had concenns that he did not appnopniate judgment as to whom he would say what. Did Mn. Vindman 15 MR. JORDAN: Okay. 16 Steve t7 MR. CASTOR: Mn. Roy? 18 MR. PERRY: Can 19 MR. CASTOR: Mn. 20 MR. PERRY: 2L 22 23 24 25 adhere to not included, specifically excluded -- I 10 L2 didn't he exercise ? I -Penny. I'm sonny Sticking with Colonel Vindman, I just have an affinity fon him because I, too, senved in unifonm and I undenstand his circumstances. I think maybe as a penson that's intenested in following the chain of command, et cetena -- and those standands ane very impontant to every single one of us. They'ne inbred into us. Do you think that he -- I don't know how to put -- maybe he was UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS in the change of 206 IF]ED his autonomy -- on maybe his own 1 disappointed 2 perceived autonomy unden Fiona 3 that that was a 4 On do you think he just undenstood intuitively that there 5 sheniff in town, so to speak? 0r -- how HilI, when you came in, do you think point of fniction? Did you sense that at some point? was a new 8 I don't know that I can speak to his neaction being based on a change in management or if it was merely a nesult of him chafing in tenms of how I wanted to use, you know, the 9 nesounce 6 7 MR. MORRISON: Congressman, that he was. Okay. Fair enough. A1I night. 10 MR. PERRY: 7L MR. CASTOR: L2 MR. ROY: A11 Mr. I Thanks. ROY? was going to do is take 30 seconds to undenscone 13 what Congressman Meadows said about appreciating youn senvice and L4 appreciating your being here. And, you know, we ovenlapped 15 Senate when I was with lohn 16 MR. MORRISON: t7 MR. it's Connyn and you wene in the with Senator KyI. Yes, sin. ROY: And that's been oven a decade ago since we've engaged, in the public senvice. I good to see you again here could get to my kids' tnick-on-tneating tonight and see my 1O-yean-oId 18 but 19 I And wish 22 all things, in a tuxedo and cannying a plastic martini gIass, nunning anound, but I'm going to miss that. So THE CHAIRMAN: As long as your son is not dnessed up as me, I'm 23 happy. 20 21 24 25 son playing James Bond, of MR. ROY: Thene's Bo, but I appreciate a joke in there somewhene, but I'11 that, Mn. Chainman. UNCLASS IF]ED let that 207 UNCLASS I The only 1 FIED thing I will say, something I did want to follow up on 3 just to make sune I heand conrectly -- and I'm sonry, because we've been in and out and, you know, putting all this togethen -- was with 4 nespect to the convensation with Mn. Sondland about what the Pnesident 5 said to him on Septemben 7th, that conversation, that you did not 6 confinm that that convensation took 7 wene unable 8 Pnesident and Mn. Sondland? 2 place. You eithen didn't tny on to confirm that the convensation took place between the 11 sin. f'm sonny, I don't nememben if it was Septemben 7th on Septemben 8th, but I necall that being an especially busy day, which led to the joculan exchange. And I was not able to L2 confinm that he did actually speak with the Pnesident on that panticulan 13 occasion. 9 10 MR. MORRISON: L4 MR. ROY: Okay. 15 And then Yes, the only othen thing is, with nespect to the 15 chanactenization of the phone call fnom Mn. Sondland to younself t7 the descniption in Mn. Taylon's statement pnovided, and when he 20 -- in the wonding in his statement that it was his opening investigations of Biden and 2@16 election intenfenence, did you hean that jointly on sepanated? 0n how would you chanactenize the natune 21. of that 22 convensation 18 19 descnibes 25 was of that ? MR. MORRISON: On Septemben 23 24 expnession fnom Mn. Sondland about the natune 7th on Septemben 8th, whicheven it ? MR. ROY: Uh-huh. UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS MR. MORRISON: As L I necall 208 I FIED what Ambassadon Sondland related to the Pnesident had stated to Ambassador Sondland, "Thene is no quid 2 me, 3 pno quo, 4 to say it. but I want to hean it fnom Pnesident Zelensky. He should want " ROY: That's the specific language that you nememben heaning? 5 MR. 6 MR. MORRISON: 7 fnom Ambassadon Sondland. That's the specific language I Okay. 8 MR. ROY: 9 MR. MEADOWS: nememben heaning Thank you. Mn. Monnison, so I want to come back. I've thought 11 of a couple of othen -- it's not a "Columbo" moment. I'm not trying to catch you in it, but I've thought of a couple othen questions as t2 it relates to the Vice Pnesident 13 hlarsaw. 10 meeting with Pnesident Zelensky in L4 I don't 15 chanactenize 16 Pnesident Pence as a condial convensation between two wonld leaders? have a that convensation MR. MORRISON: 17 was L9 He was veny eagen 27 22 23 24 25 Wou1d you between Pnesident Zelensky and Vice Yes, sin, absolutely. It was neally the one meeting that the Vice Pnesident 18 20 fu1l charactenization of that meeting. -- as I reca11, it was adamant he take. to Pnesident Zelensky and do his best to convey to President Zelensky his, the Vice Pnesident's, suppont and the suppont of the United States for Pnesident Zelensky and the neform agenda he was undentaking in Ukraine. to speak MR. MEADOWS: So the message was very clean fnom the Vice insisting on meeting pensonally, not sending someone else in his place to meet with the President to expness -- would Pnesident. He was UNCLASS ] FIED 209 UNCLASS I it as a new solidarity 1 you chanactenize 2 the Uknaine in tenms of thein 3 connuption? 0n what would is: between the United States and new govennment's willingness to fight it -- MR. MORRISON: Congnessman, 4 FIED the way I'd pnefen to frame it, of bi-lats we had planned 5 it's 6 Pnesident Tnump. Vice Pnesident Pence was adamant okay, Thene wene a numben if fon that he keep the 10 bi-Iat with Pnesident Zelensky. And, as I undenstand it, it was because he wanted to convey, as best he could, Amenican support and his pensonal suppont for what Pnesident Zelensky was trying to do. MR. MEADOWS: A11 night. So it would not sunpnise you if the Vice 11 Pnesident of the United States came back and advised the Pnesident that 72 this nelationship is 13 that you witnessed. 7 8 9 one that hlould he could tnust that sunprise UNCLASS ] F]ED based on you? the convensation I l2:A5 p.m. l Sin, I am awane 2 MR. MORRISON: 3 MR. MEADOWS: You'ne awane 4 MR. MORRISON: YCS. 5 MR. MEADOWS: So that he did. that he did? you'ne awane that the Vice President came back told the Pnesident that it was a good meeting and 5 and 7 nonmalize any relationship with Ukraine? MR. MORRISON: To 8 9 made 10 11 L2 270 FIED UNCLASS I the best of my knowledge, that we should the Vice Pnesident that phone call to the President that same night. MR. MEADOWS: Okay. I'11 yield back. MR. IORDAN: And, Mn. Monrison, the fact that the meeting went well didn't sunprise you, did it? sin. L3 MR. MORRISON: No, 74 MR. IORDAN: Because I think you'd said eanlien today that you 15 felt that once Pnesident Zelensky got with eithen President Tnump on Vice President Pence, I think you said you thought they would hit it t7 off. 15 Yes, sin. 18 MR. MORRISON: L9 MR. IORDAN: And 20 MR. MORRISON: 27 MR. IORDAN: And 22 MR. MORRISON: The 23 24 25 that's exactly what happened. Yes, sin. this happens on -- eanly in Septemben. Vice Pnesident's bi-Iat with Pnesident Zelensky was 1 September. MR. IORDAN: And then the Vice Pnesident comes back and Pnesident that, hey, this Zelensky guy UNCLASS I is FIED te1ls the a good guy, on something to zLL UNCLASS 1 that effect, talks about the meeting and the intenaction they had. sin, essentia1lY. And then it's just a few days aften that that the 2 MR. MORRISON: 3 MR. JORDAN: 4 I FIED aid actually happens and MR. MORRISON: 5 Yes, is Sin, to neleased. my knowledge, the President detenmined to 6 release the aid the evening of Septemben 7 conveyed 8 a few days gap. But yes, sin. to the interagency the MR. JORDAN: 9 Gneat. That infonmation of Septemben 12th, was so thene's Thank you. BY MR. CASTOR: 10 a 11 The meeting that you had with Colonel Vindman and John Enath, that the finst time that you had asked John Enath to sit in a meeting L2 was 13 with you and Colonel A L4 Based on Vindman? I felt it was appnopniate because it was a meeting in the natune of the natune of the meeting, 15 to 16 a pensonnel action. have my deputy present a Okay. And had you had any othen meetings like that with lohn 17 18 monning 11th. Enath and Colonel Vindman? A 19 So I made a habit of including my deputy in meetings because 2L If I was unable to attend something because I was called into something e1se, I wanted my deputy to be ful1y informed 22 about what 20 he was my 25 I was doing so a Okay. 23 24 backstop. like that he could step Not to a beat. But wene thene any other pensonnel-nelated meetings that? A in without skipping my knowledge. UNCLASS IEIED UNCLASS I t a 212 FIED Okay. Thene's been some questions here with othen witnesses 2 about whethen Kash Patel got involved with the Uknaine 3 you know anything about that? A 4 a Okay. A I do. 5 6 a A 7 8 9 10 Fon a in the pness. And you know Kash Patel? he's a -- what's his When he came anea of nesponsibility at NSC? to the NSC he was a dinecton in the Dinectorate He is now a senion dinecton in the Okay. And to youn knowledge, he doesn't have any Uknaine-nelated involvement? A Connect. a Did Dn. Hill - A I should say, my firsthand knowledge. I \4 15 of certain a 17 18 nead Do Countentennonism Dinectonate. 13 16 And I've International Onganizations. L1 72 0n1y what portfolio. of -- am, of counse, awane pness neponts. Okay. And what ane on what did you leann the pness neponts that you're in the pness about this awane issue? 2L A I'm not sune I leanned anything in the pness about this issue. I'm awane of pness reponting. I don't have any finsthand knowledge. I'm not tnying to be cute. I don't have any firsthand knowledge. I 22 can't vouch fon the venacity 23 the public neponting is that he has somehow been involved in 24 and has had a dinect 19 20 25 a on the cnedibility of the neponting. But line to the Pnesident. And you'ne not awane of that, night? UNCLASS I F]ED Uknaine UNCLASS 273 I FIED 3 A I have no finsthand knowledge. a Okay. Thene was a meeting in the Oval Office before you assumed Dr. HiIl's nesponsibilities on, I believe it was May 23th, 4 whene Ambassadon Sondland, Ambassadon VoIken, Senaton lohnson bniefed 5 the Pnesident on thein 6 you familian with 1 2 7 8 9 that visit to Pnesident Zelensky's inaugunal. meeting? A I'm not sune I'm familian with that meeting. a Thene's been an allegation naised that Colonel excluded fnom Ane that meeting. Do you know Vindman was anything about that? 11 A It's not uncommon fon dinectons not to be included in meetings with the President. It's the senion dinecton's job. But I t2 have no finsthand knowledge 10 13 1.4 a Okay. To of that the best of youn knowledge, A Yes. 16 a And you have had no issues 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 Kash Patel is somebody with integnity? 15 \7 meeting. senvice with him with Kash Patel duning youn joint at NSC? MS. VAN GELDER: Excuse me, I believe that we've alneady established that Kash Patel is outside the scope of his testimony today. MR. CASTOR: Okay. I wish he was outside the scope of these pnoceedings, but we've had a lot of questions MS. VAN GELDER: He's al-neady about him. said he has no dealings with Kash PateI. BY MR. CASTOR: a Okay. But he's a colleague of yours on the NSC, night? UNCLASS ] FIED I UNCLASS 1 2L4 I FIED mean 2 A He 3 a Okay. And so you've never had any dealings with 4 what soeve is. him n? 5 A I 6 a 7 MS. VAN GELDER: have. Okay. Have they been positive? Let's keep it to the inquiny. It's a slippery 8 slope when we stant going into what could be personnel actions and othen 9 issues. MR. CASTOR: 10 11 yield done. I think I'11 tJould you like to take a shont break or should we keep going? t4 MR. MORRISON: 15 THE 16 much back. THE CHAIRMAN: L2 13 Okay. I think I'm pnetty tunn it CHAIRMAN: oven to I'm fine to keep going, Okay. I'm just going to my House Do you know whethen t7 Chainman. ask a few questions, then colleagues before we go back to Mn. Goldman. Colonel Vindman had consulted with the legal 18 counsel about concerns oven what you've descnibed as the Bunisma bucket 19 of issues pnion to youn annival 20 MR. MORRISON: 2l THE CHAIRMAN: at the NSC? I have no finsthand knowledge, sin. If he had been advised by the 1ega1 advisen to 22 raise those concenns directly with him and not discuss themwith othens, 23 would you he should discuss those issues MR. MORRISON: Chainman, 24 25 sti11 believe that me I would expect somebody that thene was that conduit in which I UNCLASS I FIED to with you? have advised was not involved. UNCLASS L THE CHAIRMAN: 275 I FIED But you would agnee that 2 advice of the legaI counsel, he would not 3 command ? he was following the be violating the chain of Yes, sin, I would agnee. 4 MR. MORRISON: 5 THE 6 MR. MORRISON: 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Pnion 8 MR. MORRISON: 9 if CHAIRMAN: Now, I know Mr. Patel had a pnomotion of some Yes, sin. to his pnomotion, what was his position? Sin, he was the directon in the Dinectorate on Intennational Onganizations. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: And how does 1.1 MR. MORRISON: I mean, that compane to youn position? thene's special assistants who are Thene's dinectons in the policy staff. lane. There's 72 administnative 13 dinectors, thene's the senion dinecton, and then thene's the L4 National Secunity Advison and the National Secunity Advison. 15 16 THE CHAIRIvIAN: And would yours? Equivalent to MR. MORRISON: Below, 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Below 19 MR. MORRISON: As 20 THE CHAIRMAN: sin. your position? he did involve himself in Uknaine mattens, should that have gone thnough you? Yes, sin. MR. MORRISON: 23 THE CHAIRMAN: So 25 his position be above youns? Below a dinecton, y€s, sin. If 22 24 Deputy youns? 77 2t kind? if he involved himself in Uknaine mattens, he of his chain of command? MR. MORRISON: Sin, in my opinion, as the Senion Directon fon would have been outside UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS Affains, if he engaged in policy on Uknaine and he did not 7 Eunopean 2 advise me, that would be a pnocess foul. 4 in command a way that would be a pnocess foul? MR. MORRISON: 5 issue. 6 command 7 command. It youn chain Sin, I don't see would be a pnocess foul. of if he's wonking on Uknaine, But he should be in command, conrect? MR. MORRISON: No, 10 that I this as a chain of to me. He's not in my chain of know not repont He does THE CHAIRMAN: 8 9 that would be outside the chain of so THE CHAIRMAN: And 3 2t6 I EIED sir, not necessanily. Thene could be Uknaine to the U.N. Secunity LL countentennonism issues on Uknaine issues nelated t2 Council on Intennational Onganizations when he was assigned L3 dinectonate that he could be engaged in, but as the regional senion t4 dinecton, I should be awane of that. It's my to that nesponsibility to attempt 17 to be awane of everything the United States is doing in Uknaine. In that, I'm assisted by people like AIex. THE CHAIRMAN: And if you'ne not advised of that, that can be a 18 pnoblem because L9 as 15 16 20 it should it means that youn decisionmaking is not as infonmed be? MR. MORRISON: We1I, I blanch that I make 27 necommendations, my ability 22 of the United States to not be in a situation 23 engaging Uknaine without 24 thenefone we look confused to the Uknainians, 25 exists to pnevent that. to wonk decisions. My with the interagency, the whene policy ability the night hand is the left hand knowing what's going on UNCLASS1TIED and for example, the pnocess 217 UNCLASS THE 1 2 Okay. I CHAIRMAN: want I FIED to follow up on some about the Vice Pnesident. I think you said that 3 you would expect that the Vice Pnesident of the call that Pnesident 4 would have been given a recond 5 with Pnesident Zelensky since 6 meeting with Pnesident Zelensky. 7 pnesidential -- the vice pnesidential daily bnief? MR. MORRISON: 8 9 of the questions Tnump had he was veny soon thereaften going It would be part to a of his Yes, sin. At that point the idea of the Vice Pnesident meeting with President Zelensky was not planned. But it's L0 the normal process fon a head of state call fon a copy of the tnanscnipt 11 to L2 be made available THE CHAIRMAN: to the Vice Pnesident the next available day. I know thene have been questions raised, and I'm the venacity of them, about 13 not going to ask you to L4 the Pnesident neads his daily bnief on doesn't nead his daily bnief. 15 Do you have any neason 16 his daily bnief? L7 18 19 MR. MORRISON: neaden comment on whethen to believe that the Vice Pnesident doesn't Sin, the Vice Pnesident is known to nead be a vonacious of his dally bnief. THE CHAIRMAN: So you would imagine that the call necond would 24 in his daily brief and that he would have nead it? MR. MORRISON: It is the nonmal pnactice fon it to have been in the daily bnief. I cannot speak authoritatively that it was in his daily bnief the next available day aften the luly 25th caII, but I attempted to say that it was my undenstanding he had access to it while 25 he was 20 2t 22 23 have been flying oven to Wansaw. UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS 1 2L8 FIED 2 that bilatenal meeting that the Vice Pnesident participated in, that was a fainly lange numben of people, 3 was 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, it not? 4 MR. MORRISON: The Zelensky-Pence bi-1at? 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 6 MR. MORRISON: 7 THE CHAIRMAN: So how 8 mean, Yes, sin, we had a lange delegation. I don't need an exact numben, think thene 11 a lange U.S. delegation. of seat on the U.S. side. I to 30 people? MR. MORRISON: I would say mone like a dozen, maybe -- I 73 would say about a dozen. THE CHAIRMAN: So 15 you said two nows of nepnesentatives fnom the United States? Yes, sin. T7 MR. MORRISON: 18 THE CHAIRMAN: And how many 19 MR. MORRISON: So about 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. MR. MORRISON: I don't think the second row was a complete 2L 22 23 24 25 was THE CHAIRMAN: So maybe 2@ 12 16 I only one now of seats on the Uknainian side. It 10 was it but was it two on thnee dozen people? MR. MORRISON: There wene two nows 9 74 lange was the delegation? Was side So people in each now? six on seven. that would be about 12 to 14 on the U.S. ? row, sin, but I necall we had two nows, they had one now. And sometimes it was -- it can be embannassing in these cincumstances how much biggen oun side is than the opposite countny side. UNCLASSI FIED 219 UNCLASS] FIED 1 THE CHAIRMAN: So it sounds like you'ne talking about 3 to 20 people, then. MR. MORRISON: Sin, I think it was closen to about 12. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 5 MR. MORRISON: 0h, in the meeting ovenall? 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, in the meeting ovenall. 7 MR. MORRISON: Yes, sin, pnobably about 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 2 9 neighbonhood of 10 So you'ne saying pnobably about 20. that in the meeting with 20 people pnesent, Vice Pnesident Pence did not bning up the Bunisma 11 of issues. Is that night? MR. MORRISON: That is connect, sin. L2 THE CHAIRMAN: 10 the bucket But immediately aften that lange meeting thene's 13 a pnivate meeting between Ambassadon Sondland and Mr. Yenmak whene 14 does bning up the Bunisma bucket night? Yes, sir. 15 MR. MORRISON: 16 THE CHAIRMAN: And t7 of issues, then immediately aften that he goes and tells you about it? Yes, sin. 18 MR. MORRISON: 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. 20 MR. ENGEL: 27 THE CHAIRMAN: 22 Mn. Swalwe11. 23 MR. SWALWELL: Thank 24 And thank 25 Fo1lowing up on the chainman's question, one neasonable I he Engel, do you have questions? have no questions Okay. Mns. you, at this time. Thank you. Maloney? Chainman. you, Mn. Monnison, fon coming in. UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS 220 I EIED 1 conclusion could be that the Vice Pnesident did not wish 2 that bucket you've descnibed in fnont of 3 that night? such a large to bning up audience. Is 4 MR. MORRISON: Sin, I don't want to speculate on why. 5 MR. SWALWELL: Is it also a reasonable conclusion that 6 the Vice President thought 7 MR. MORRISON: 8 13 74 15 why the Vice the Vice President's job is to carny out the policy pnionities of the Pnesident. You would MR. MORRISON: agnee to that? Yes, sin. if the Vice President nead the call record as a vonacious reader, as you described, it's pnetty clean in that call necond that a pnionity of the Pnesident of the United States is fon the Pnesident of Uknaine to investigate the Bidens. Is that night? MR. SWALWELL: And MR. MORRISON: These issues wene naised 16 L7 to bning up those issues? Sin, again, I prefen not to speculate MR. SWALWELL: We1l, 11 72 would be wnong Pnesident conducted the meeting the way he did. 9 10 it perhaps and in the MEMCON, yes, sin, the phone caII. if Vice 18 MR. SWALWELL: So 19 face-to-face meeting with -- Pnesident Biden 20 MS. VAN GELDER: Vice Pnesident Pence. 2t MR. SWALWELL: Sonry. If Vice Pnesident in his finst Pence in his finst 22 face-to-face meeting with Pnesident Zelensky about a month aften the 23 July 25th call does not bning up a centnal pnionity of the Pnesident's, 24 is that the Vice 25 pnionities Pnesident failing to canny out ? UNCLASS I FIED the Pnesident's UNCLASS MR. MORRISON: L 2 I Sin, I listened to the July 25th phone cal1, : MR. 4 MR. MORRISON: SWALT^JELL responsibility, Why not ? I did not considen them to 7 MR. MORRISON: 8 MR. SWALWELL: But wene they wnong? 9 MR. MORRISON: Sin, they 13 MR. SWALWELL: But 16 not that judgment at the time. make the judgment now. that judgment make I did make that Sin, I judgment have not come to that judgment, that Ambassadon 19 talk about what was discussed. MS. VAN GELDER: how we Do you know what Bolton spoke with I didn't hean you they discussed? I believe that that is fon laten to be detenmined get around that. MR. SWALWELL: 22 and at the time. Pnesident Tnump about the security assistance, but 2t at the time. ane 18 20 Ane at this time today, do you believe they MR. SWALWELL: You nefenenced 17 make ? MR. MORRISON: 15 of not issues f would have naised. I'm asking you to Sir, I did not MR. MORRISON: wnong my anea wnong? 72 L4 wene Sin, I did not MR. SWALWELL: But they within think they wene wnong? MR. SWALWELL: Did you 10 be my 1ane. 6 11 and neven naised these issues eithen. 3 5 22t I FIED Okay. Wene you -- wel1, Iet me ask you, I asked 24 if it's wnong fon the Pnesident to bning up those investigations. Is it night fon him to bning up those investigations with Pnesident 25 Zelens ky ? 23 you UNCLASS I FIED 222 UNCLASSlFIED MR. MORRISON: L 2 with a foneign leaden. MR. SWALWELL: 3 4 you awane about you talking point aften the luly 25th phone caIl, wene awane? public, I of the whistleblowen complaint became became aware. MR. SWALWELL: But wene you awane L2 MR. MORRISON: No, 13 MR. SWALWELL: -- by any way? t4 MR. MORRIS0N: No, 15 MR. SWALT^,IELL: Ane you awane intennally befone it 18 that if it's L9 we 20 wene awane good stant saying intennally -- sin. sir. of anyone else being awane became public? MS. VAN GELDER: With t7 in the wonks? What timefname ane we 11 16 was wene ? MR. MORRISON: When news 9 10 I'm sonny, sir. MR. STTJALWELL: At any 7 8 At any point aften the July 25th phone cal1, that a whistleblower complaint MR. MORRISON: 5 5 Sin, it's the Pnesident's choice what he naises all due nespect, Congressman, I believe fon the goose, it's good fon the ganden. And when we can't go into who the whistleblowen was on what we 22 of when the whistleblowen was, that that would be beyond the scope of this testimony. MR. SWALWELL: If the investigations into Bunisma, the Bidens, 23 and 2076 wene 21 24 25 not policy pnionities, what would you descnibe them as? the Pnesident's nadan, issues that had MR. MORRISON: Issues on his attention. But these were not issues that the policy pnocess was UNCLASS IFIED 223 I EIED UNCLASS 1 2 3 wonking on. MR. SWALWELL: And who is more impontant, the policy pensonnel on the Pnesident? Sin, the Pnesident is the President. 4 MR. MORRISON: 5 MR. SWALIdELL: What does 6 MR. MORRISON: That means we 7 MR. SWALWELL: 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Repnesentative Speien. 9 MS. SPEIER: Thank you, Mn. Chainman. that I'11 yield mean? all senve at his pleasune. back. 10 Thank you, Mn. Monnison. 11 At one point you nefenenced that this was night aften the 9/L t2 meeting, and you neponted to Mr. Bolton and to Mn. Taylon about this 13 condition 1,4 Mn. Bo1ton said, stay out 15 NSC. And I scnibbled down what you said, and something to that effect 16 that you wanted to 17 said to pnotect the Pnesident. now before the aid was going to be of this, MR. MORRISON: CONNCCt. 19 MS. SPEIER: So you wanted 20 available. it to the And lawyens at a necord of what Sondland had to pnotect the Pnesident fnom what? MR. MORRISON: And, Congnesswoman, I'm still not completely 27 centain that this 22 fnom Ambassadon Sondland. 23 and you took make sune thene was 18 made And so if was coming fnom the Pnesident. I'm only getting this Ambassadon Sondland is doing this, and I am not entinely 24 centain that thene's any involvement hene of the Pnesident, 25 make sune thene's a necond. And to UNCLASS my way I FIED I want to of thinking, that necond UNCLASS I 224 FIED t should go through the lawyens, especially White House counsel, about 2 what I am seeing and hearing and leanning about. MS. SPEIER: But 3 let's, this, 4 Pnesident didn't 5 neponting it to the lawyens, 6 was 7 this public know about that you thought it of lawyens. I was a pant of includes extnaondinany numben 11 Pnesident L2 know, 13 evidently, does not have that kind of protection. that ane not legal. chiefly only involved Ambassadon Bolton 15 pnotection. 16 lawyens L7 And 18 centain that he is. So pant is We This other pnocess that, as fan as I Ambassadon Sondland, Mn. fond of an do not develop options fon the 10 is on there's a neason I framed it as two processes. The propen pnocess that Giuliani saying that the pnocess is youn of what I'm trying to do hene in talking to the making sune they'ne awane of what Mr. Sondland he's saying the Pnesident MS. SPEIER: A11 19 him by statement by Mn. Zelensky? MR. MORRISON: Ma'am, t4 to protect as you ane tnying ane you saying then if in fact the unjust, i11egal, inappropriate fon the aid to be conditioned 8 9 fon discussion purposes, night. is awane, When but I'm the issue is doing. still not entinely came up at that bilatenal 20 meeting with Vice President Pence and Pnesident Zelensky, and Pnesident 2t Zelensky asked why was the secunity assistance being withheld, what 22 did Vice Pnesident Pence say? that 23 MR. MORRISON: He focused on Pnesident Trump's concenns, 24 President Trump wanted to make sune that Uknaine was making pnogness 25 on its connuption nefonm agenda. And he made the points UNCLASSI FIED -- I'm sonny, UNCLASS -- the Vice Pnesident made the point to 1 excuse me 2 that Pnesident 3 mattens 4 assistance 5 that the 6 assistance. in Tnump that secunity assistance, security-secton Eunope, and given to Uknaine was entinely Amenican, the Pnesident believed Eunopeans should be contnibuting mone in secunity-secton did Pnesident Zelensky say to that? MS. SPEIER: And what 8 MR. MORRISON: He agneed Pnesident Pence Pnesident Zelensky believed the Eunopeans should be doing mone about 1 9 225 I F]ED -- Pnesident Zelensky agneed with Vice that the Eunopeans should be doing mone. to Vice Pnesident 10 he related 11 Eunopean leadens about L2 And he stated doing -- this Pence convensations getting them to do his stnong was 2 on t4 othens, had been in Uknaine meeting with Pnesident MS. SPEIER: And he investigation? He didn't didn't use say anything about he was punsuing that 19 MR. MORRISON: He who, ma'am? 20 MS. SPEIER: Pardon he? 2t MR. MORRISON: He who, ma'am? 22 MS. SPEIER: 23 MR. MORRISON: No, 24 25 I, among Zelensky -- even in those 2 on 3 days, what Pnesident Zelensky and his Senvant of the People Panty in the Rada had done on the cornuption nefonm agenda. 77 18 things he had Ambassadon Bolton and been t6 neca11, mone. 13 15 I he'd been having with commitment and some of the 3 days aften As any of the Bunisma an wond? I'm sonry. Pnesident Zelensky. ma'am. I have no necollection that he naised investigation. MS. SPEIER: 0n just used the wond "investigation"? UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS I 226 I FIED have no L MR. MORRISON: No, ma'am, 2 MS. SPEIER: When oun colleagues on 3 making 4 made a 5 6 7 8 -- recollection that he did. the othen side wene asking you questions about Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, you patniot. And then thene wene a senies of questions asked that, fnom my view, wene attempting to undenmine him as someone who is doing his job. So why don't you te1l us a little bit about the work that you obsenved of Lieutenant Colonel Vindman that were indeed exemplary. point of saying he was a MR. MORRISON: Ma'am, 9 I'm limited based on the scope of the 10 inquiny to talk about mattens nelated to secunity assistance. t7 I t2 clear that he know as well as you do Lieutenant ColoneI Vindman's bio, which is makes a tremendous patniot. He has been deployed 13 I think to conflict zones. fon his countny, been the He has been wounded and Heant. L4 shed blood L5 should be no imputation that Colonel Vindman is anything othen than 16 an absolute patniot. WeII, L7 MS. SPEIER: 18 MS. VAN GELDER: L9 c lient I I awanded ask fon youn indulgence. May 22 MS. SPEIER: So on 24 25 I speak to my ? 2L 23 Thene know, but off of the necond.] MS. VAN GELDER: I aPologize. 20 Punp1e IDiscussion this issue anea, I mean, you would -- would that he's an exPent? MR. MORRISON: I think he knew his pontfolio, Y€s, ma'am. MS. SPEIER: And you'ne awane that he has been working on this you not agnee UNCLASS I FIED 227 UNCLASS IETED if I 1 issue, 2 foneign anea officen am nemembening my notes hene, MR. MORRISON: 3 in Eunasia. 2@@8 he has been a of that? WeII, ma'am, he was necruited to come to the NSC 4 because he was a Russia 5 had a staffing since expent. nequinement You'ne awane We had a staffing unden Dn. that he not come oven -- that HiI1, we he not do the 8 at the time fon a Uknaine officen. And he's Uknainian, so it seemed like a good fit at the time. MS. SPEIER: And he centainly got good job penfonmances, I 9 pnesume 6 7 Russia pontfolio because she had a need ? 10 MR. MORRISON: I 11 MS. SPEIER: So the issue that was raised about chain of neven did an employee neview of L2 I just want to come back to it. 13 dinectly to the attonney in the L4 telephone call? 15 MR. MORRISON: YeS. L6 MS. SPEIER: 0n L7 MR. MORRISON: YeS. 18 MS. SPEIER: So 19 of 20 aisle? command, as it JuIy it He had NSC command, the night, did he not, to go to naise his concenns about that 25th? was not that he was not following the chain was suggested by colleagues on 2T MR. MORRISON: We1I, ma'am, 22 should have bnought his concerns 23 to NSC 24 do it. If 25 had come we had coondinated the othen side of the it's my view, as his supenvison, he finst to me since I was also going Legal with those concenns. to me as I him. We didn't necessanily need betten, yoU know, the chain of would have expected, UNCLASSTFIED that's the issue. to both -- if he UNCLASS MS. SPEIER: L 2 But, again, there was no MR. MORRISON: He 4 MS. SPEIER: 5 THE CHAIRMAN: pass he didn't violate any it on to did not violate any fonmal nules. night. I yield A1I back. I just have a couple followup questions befone I Mn. Heck. You mentioned one 7 of the reasons why aften the Wansaw discussions 8 you had with Ambassadon Sondland you went 9 document to the legaI counsel to that conversation to pnotect the Pnesident. Is that night? 10 MR. MORRISON: That was among my 1.7 THE \2 -- nules by going to the attonney? 3 6 228 I FIED CHAIRMAN: In case what motivations, yes, Mn. Chainman. Ambassadon Sondland said had not been authonized by the Pnesident. MR. MORRISON: Mn. Chainman, 13 that is one of the concenns t4 about the way Ambassadon Sondland undentook what he undenstood 15 his pontfolio. THE CHAIRMAN: 16 I had to be But did you undenstand also at the time you took 18 this action that if, in fact, Ambassador Sondland was acting at the dinection of the Pnesident, you wene also cneating a paper tnail 19 incriminating the Pnesident? 77 WelI, sin, you could make that angument, yes. 20 MR. MORRISON: 27 THE CHAIRIvIAN: Now, told you 22 Sondland 23 genenal needed 24 aid, 25 to in I think Po1and commit that you testified eanlien that Ambassadon he had told that the pnosecuton to these investigations to get the militany night? MR. M0RRISON: Yenmak Yes, sin. UNCLASS I F]ED 229 UNCLASSIFIED THE CHAIRMAN: And 1 then it was subsequently on the phone whene 3 to you, Ambassador Sondland that is, and said, ho, the pnosecuton genenal is not going to be sufficient, Pnesident Zelensky 4 has 2 he came back to that, right? MR. MoRRISoN: Yes, sir. to 5 6 was no 7 want 10 related the Pnesident told Okay. CHAIRMAN: Now, was there anyone in a position to give instnuctions about what Uknaine MR. MORRISON: YCS. L2 THE CHAIRMAN: And who would 13 MR. MORRISON: l4 THE CHAIRMAN: And do apant of things, Sin, thene were a numben of actors. I'm not talking about in the sont of because we've already discussed scheme 16 channel. But in t7 Ambassadon 18 instnuctions that he was to convey to nonmal this as a regulan youn experience, apant from the President on penhaps Bolton, was thene anyone giving MR. MORRISON: Ambassadon Sondland Uknaine? So, sin, I'm sonny, I may not undenstand youn 20 question. fn a pnopen pnocess the Acting Assistant 2L Reeken would have 23 to that be? 15 22 needed the Pnesident? L7 19 him thene to do lt. Ambassadon Sondland fnom He quid pro quo, but President Zelensky had to do it and he should THE 8 9 commit THE CHAIRMAN: Secnetany of State Yeah. I'm not asking about the propen pnocess. I'm asking about the impropen pnocess. Yes, sin. 24 MR. MORRISON: 25 THE CHAIRMAN: And that is, in UNCLASS youn expenience, apant fnom the ] FIED 1 Pnesident, was anyone 2 can do this in a position to tell Ambassadon Sondland you on you can't do that? MR. MORRISON: 3 230 F]ED UNCLASS I Sir, in the context of what I understood 4 panal1el pnocess, Ambassadon Sondland believed and 5 to me that the Pnesident was giving THE CHAIRMAN: So 6 at least nelated him instnuction. Ambassadon Sondland acknowledged making an in oniginally saying that the pnosecutor general could make this 7 ennon 8 commitment and 9 Pnesident, 10 if to be the it laten connected and said, hor according to the has to be Pnesident Zelensky, thene would have been nobody else othen than the Pnesident that could've naised the bar that t7 MR. MORRISON: Sin, something I was thinking about eanlien way? when t4 it could have been as simple as Ambassadon Sondland thought mone about it and decided, no, this won't wonk fon some neason, because there was no discipline in how he was 15 cannying out what he undenstood 72 13 16 t7 18 19 20 I was answening youn nelated question was, THE to be CHAIRMAN: And he undenstood what the President asked him MR. MORRISON: He his nesponsibilities to be doing to do? nelated to me he was acting -- he was discussing these mattens with the Pnesident. THE CHAIRMAN: And, in fact, eveny time you went in fact, talked to the Pnesident 27 whethen he had, 22 talked to the Pnesident? 23 MR. MORRISON: Yes, MP. Chainman. 24 THE CHAIRIfiN: And 25 his nesponsibilities. delegation meeting, in to check you found to see that he had Poland, aften the vice pnesidential when Ambassadon Sondland goes UNCLASSI FIED to have that pnivate UNCLASS 231 ] FIED 7 convensation with Mn. Yenmak and te1ls him about the conditioning of 2 the aid, nemind me what Mn. Yenmak's position was in nelationship to 3 ZeIensky. MR. MORRISON: 4 5 akin to me. 6 issues. He was a Sir, I fnankly, he was pnobably somewhat Pnesidential advisen on American issues, Amenica THE CHAIRMAN: And 7 mean, told is it neasonable to expect that aften that the aid would not happen unless 8 Ambassadon Sondland 9 thene was the commitment to these investigations, then Mn. Yermak, as 10 the advisen to Zelensky, would have pnomptly told Zelensky about this? MR. MORRISON: LT Yenmak Slr, if I take the panaIle1 that he's something L2 Iike me, he might have had one on two layens between 13 Pnesident L4 to have gone to first. But I somewhat hesitate speculate too much about whene he would have gone next. THE CHAIRMAN: 15 16 that he would him and the Zelensky in But that message would have gotten to Pnesident shont onden, you would expect? L7 MR. MORRISON: It 18 THE CHAIRMAN: WeIl, that's not the kind of thing you would fnom 20 panticulanly when he naised in the 23 with the Vice Pnesident. 25 simply can't say. meeting with the Vice THE CHAIRMAN: it, if keep you wene his advisen, that in the meeting with the Vice Pnesident? MR. MORRISON: We11, he 22 24 sir, I the Pnesident of Uknaine, would 19 2L may, didn't naise -- sin, President. He naised it he didn't naise it aften the meeting WeII, I'm talking about Zelensky. Zelensky raises the aid in the meeting with Vice Pnesident UNCLASS I FIED Pence? UNCLASS 7 MR. MORRISON: Yes, sir. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Immediately 3 I 4 Ambassador Sondland? 5 MR. MORRISON: 6 7 8 9 understand the top advisen after the meeting his advisen, and as to ZeIensky, has this convensation with Yes, sin. It's on the subject of what he just -- Zelensky just talked to Pence about. You would expect that Yenmak would communicate that to Zelensky, would you not? MR. MORRISON: Sin, he -- I'm sonny. He may have. I don't know THE CHAIRMAN: could've gone to anothen 1evel, and that othen leve1 10 fon a fact. 11 said, hor this is ctazy, keep it He t2 THE CHAIRMAN: Do 13 MR. MORRISON: 14 232 I EIED away from you have any neason Sin, I don't the President. to believe that's the have any neason to believe case? on eithen side of the coin what he did with that infonmation. 19 in your position and undenstanding the role that Mn. Yenmak plays, your testimony is you can't ventune a guess as to whethen that critical piece of infonmation, that cnitical conditionality would have been shared by Mn. Yenmak with his boss? MR. MORRISON: Sir, if it were me and I was -- I'm applying this 20 to 21. anything went 15 16 L7 18 THE CHAIRMAN: And me -- I would have gone to the Danylyuk finst and talked to him befone Pnesident. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: WeI1, 23 MR. MORRISON: 24 THE 25 to I'm not sune that it is equivalent Yes, sin. CHAIRMAN: in youn position with one of Pnesident Zelensky's top advisens. UNCLASS I FIED 233 UNCLASS I EIED I will 1 But 2 MR. HECK: No questions 3 THE CHAIRMAN: 4 Mn. Cicilline? 5 MR. CICILLINE: Mn. Monnison, now necognize Mn. Heck. at this time, MF. Chainman. I can't see who's behind Mn. Heck. in youn testimony just a few said, I think, the Pnesident talk to a foneign 6 moments ago you 7 about anything he wants. Was that youn testimony? MR. MORRISON: 9 MR. CICILLINE: But you necognize 10 convensations a Pnesident could have 11 night MR. MORRISON: Yes, sin. 13 MR. CICILLINE: I1Iega1? t4 MR. MORRISON: 15 MR. CICILLINE: Undenmine oun 76 MR. MORRISON: t7 MR. CICILLINE: So when you say 18 anything he wants, 19 convensation some that would be inappropniate, that it national secunity? Yes, sin. doesn't mean a Pnesident can talk about that you would chanacterize eveny a President has with a foneign leaden as acceptable? MR. MORRISON: Acceptable as 2L MR. 25 ane Yes, sin. 20 24 that thene ? t2 23 leaden Yes, sin, effectively. 8 22 can to what standand, sir? CICILLINE: WeI1, you said a -- what did you mean when you said a Pnesident can talk about anything he wants with a foneign leaden? f know of no -- no one could teII him he can't do it. A lawyer could tell him you shouldn't do it, it's iIlegal, but ultimately the Pnesident is the Pnesident. MR. MORRISON: UNCLASS ] FIED 234 UNCLASS I MR. 1 FIED CICILLINE: WeIl, I mean, ultimately the Pnesident can utten 2 the wonds. But as a national secunity expent you necognize, of counse, 3 thene are things 4 foreign leaden which would undenmine oun national secunity, night? that a Pnesident could say in a convensation with a Yes, sin. 5 MR. MORRISON: 6 MR. CICILLINE: That would undenmine 7 the integrity of oun elections, night? Yes, sin. 8 MR. MORRISON: 9 MR. CICILLINE: That would be contnany MR. MORRISON: 10 to U.S. policy? Yes, sin. L2 to the last, if the Pnesident says it, it may no longen be incompatible with U.S. policy. He may have just 13 anticulated a L4 MR. 11 15 WeI1, sir, with new nespect U.S. policy. CICILLINE: So youn view is a President can -- 1et me stnike that. Thene ane no 16 to a foneign limits to what a Pnesident of the United States leaden on a telephone that you would t7 say 18 inappnopniate, inadvisable, i11egaI, on contnany 19 secunity intenests? 20 2L 22 23 24 25 MR. MORRISON: to can considen oun national Sin, youn -- the President can choose to naise if thene is MR. CICILLINE: Even if it's illegal? MR. MORRISON: Even if thene is a 1egaI opinion that it is iIIegaI, he could still choose to naise it. He could choose MR. CICILLINE: And then he would be -- he on she would be whatever he wants, even UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS 1 accountable for that conduct, connect? Yes, sin. 2 MR. MORRISON: 3 MR. CICILLINE: Okay. 5 view 6 of fnom on does it, it can't be a violation I'm not a legal expent, sin. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have to be a IegaI expert to expness an opinion on that? MR. MORRISON: 10 11 fon 72 matten. me now is Sin, thene ane, dating back to law school, which oven 12 yeans ago, thene ane vanied opinions on this THE CHAIRMAN: You 13 don't think the President is above the law, do you? MR. MORRISON: 15 Sin, I think thene are -- thene is foneign -- foneign policy and law with nespect to foneign affains and thene 16 law L7 is 18 is pnetty much the ultimate authonity 19 Anticle II. domestic THE 20 policy, and I think I faI1 within the camp of the Pnesident you believe the President 22 MR. MORRISON: is above on mattens of foneign policy CHAIRMAN: We11, I 'm not asking you about foneign 2t 23 that you don't subscribe to the law? MR. MORRISON: 1.4 funthen questions. I take it that if a Pnesident says it 7 9 No THE CHAIRMAN: So 4 235 IFIED the 1aw I of the United States is do not believe the Pnesident above Mrs. THE CHAIRMAN: 25 MRS. DEMINGS: Thank Demings. you, Mn. Chainman. UNCLASS I FIED policy. the Do law? of the United States as articulated by the Constitution. 24 unden UNCLASS 1 236 FIED 1 And, Mn. Monnison, thank you fon being here with us today. 2 That was an someone who enfonced the for 27 years, the President is not above the law, Constitution on 3 law 4 otherwise. I just 5 interesting exchange. Being want to veny quickly ask you, when you talked about going lead counsel about youn concenn about the content of 6 to 7 the July 25th ca11, and I believe you said youn main concern was about 8 the call being leaked because of the political environment in D.C., 9 who 10 11 t2 13 74 15 16 see the NSC did you, if you could please clanify fon me, who did you speak with befone you went to see the legal counsel about youn concenn? I anticulated in my statement thnee concenns about what would happen if it leaked. MRS. DEMINGS: No, I'm just asking, who did you speak with, MR. MORRISON: Ma'am, that was the issue fon Lieutenant Colonel Vindman about him not speaking to you. Who did you speak with befone you went to see the lead counsel about youn concenn about the call? because one, 17 MR. MORRISON: No 18 MRS. DEMINGS: You spoke 19 MR. MORRISON: The Deputy ma'am. 20 Nationa] Secunity Advison. 2L MRS. DEMINGS: 22 Thank you, 23 THE CHAIRMAN: MN. WClCh. 24 MR. WELCH: No 25 THE to no one. And who do you nepont to? National Secunity Advisor and the Okay. A11 night. Thank you. Mr. Chain. questions, MP. Chairman. CHAIRIfiN: Ms. Eleanon Holmes Norton? UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS Then 1 I will hand it back to 237 IEIED Mn. Noble. BY MR. NOBLE: 2 a I 3 want to go back to youn Septemben 7th convensation Taylon, on page t2 of 4 Ambassadon 5 alneady went oven 6 this 7 that convensation 8 connect this, Ambassadon Taylon's statement. We I did want to ask you, that aften you had but convensation with Ambassadon Sondland, you neported as with well to both that call on Ambassador Bolton and the NSC lawyens, ? A Yes, sin, connect. a And that would be Mn. Eisenbeng and Mr. Ellis? A Connect. a 0kay. So am I right that this was at least the thind time 9 10 11 T2 13 that you L4 the had neponted convensations nelating to the Uknaine matter to NSC lawyens? 18 A At least. a Okay. Do you necall any othen occasions that you went to the NSC lawyers aside fnom -- I believe, just so we can account for it on the necond, I believe you had the luly 25th conversation about 19 the Pnesident's phone ca1l. 15 16 L7 2L A a 22 convensation, 23 lawyens about the convensation you'd had with Ambassadon Sondland on 24 the 20 25 And it may have been Two convensations two convensations. that day, okay. And then you had the I believe, aften you netunned fnom Wansaw. 1st. Is that night? A Yes. UNCLASS I FIED You told the UNCLASS I a L And then you 2 with 3 Septemben 7th? 238 FIED also told them about this convensation you had Ambassadon Sondland, I believe it was on, is it the 7th, 4 A Yes. 5 a Okay. So any othen times you went to the 6 NSC lawyens on Uknaine mattens A 7 Yes. 10 -- that you can recall? What wene the othen occasions? MS . VAN GE LDER: I think, following Chainman Schiff' s admonition not to Iet people ask questions that might eventually get to the t7 whistleblower' s identity. 8 9 a L2 THE CHAIRMAN: Can 13 MR. NOBLE: Sure. you nepeat the question fon me? The question was, aside fnom the that we've discussed alneady 74 convensations you had with the 15 today, wene thene othen occasions that he went to the 76 discuss Uknaine-related mattens? NSC L7 MR. MORRISON: YCS. 18 MS. VAN GELDER: Can we lawyens put a caveat, NSC lawyens to nonpensonnel? 2T Yes. You should not answen that question in any way that you believe would nelate to the whistleblowen. But outside of that univense you -- the identity of the whistleblowen, outside of 22 that 19 20 23 THE CHAIRMAN: univense. MR. MORRISON: Thene was one other occasion whene I spoke with 24 the lawyens about Ukraine-nelated mattens, but I will not get into the 25 substance. UNCLASS I FIED 239 UNCLASS ] FIED THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 1 BY MR. NOBLE: 2 a We'II talk 3 we'lL and maybe come back to that. 5 I want to go back just as a nefenence point to the text messages quickly. 0n page 53, it's the last page, this is a text message group 6 involving 4 So Gordon Sondland, And do you see up 7 wnites: Ambassadon Sondland 9 I take to mean Zelensky -Pnesident of the United Now, we've alneady LL with Pnesident L2 had 13 you on Septemben L4 L5 16 t7 18 19 A a Taylon, and Kunt Volken. at the top on Septemben 8th at 8 10 BiIl Guys, multiple convos with Ze and POTUS -- which Tnump on on which to mean the Sondland about Septemben 7th that he nelated to 7th, right? Yes. That was the one that Ambassadon Taylon wnote about in his statement on page 12? A I'm sonny. Sometimes I get confused about these convensations. So we've alneady talked about the convensation that 2L conversation 22 eanlien that day. 25 take talked about the convensation that Taylon had with me on September 7th, whene 24 I -- States. 20 23 11:2@ a.m., I had had with I was Ambassadon talking about a Ambassadon SondIand, which I believe a Okay. And that was the convensation that Ambassador Sondland had had with Pnesident Tnump? A That's what he nelated to me, yes. UNCLASS I EIED was UNCLASS I Okay. Did he -- the question is, did he, a L Sondland, 3 Pnesident Zelensky anound this time? A I don't know that I necall a panticular convensation that to he had with the Uknainian Pnesident. 5 Ambassadon Sondland nelated 5 I think I would nemember that because 7 attention now. 8 9 10 I me that would it's naising my I've eanlien today talked about my concenns when Ambassadon Sondland would say he was talking to Uknainian officials, know, and but Ambassadon Taylon, oun chief of mission, was not a 11 t2 Ambassadon te1I you about any of the conversations that he had with 2 4 240 FIED Okay. it might be helpful to look at on page 12 in the next panagraph. So maybe Taylon's statement A 13 aware. Ambassadon Uh-huh. 15 a About in the middle it says -- and this is a call that -- on this is a convensation that Ambassadon Taylor is nelating that he had 16 with L4 Ambassadon Sondland. And he t7 says: Ambassadon Sondland said that he had talked to that although this 18 Pnesident Zelensky and Mr. Yenmak and told them 19 not a quid pno quo, 20 upr" end quote, in public, we would be at a, quote, "stalemate." Pnesident Zelensky did not, quote, "cIean things And then Ambassador Taylon 2L 22 if said he undenstood a stalemate to that Ukraine would not neceive the And then Ambassadon Taylon 23 was much-needed also -- mean militany assistance. Ambassadon Sondland also said 24 that this convensation concluded with Pnesident Zelensky agneeing to 25 make a public statement in an intenview with UNCLASS I FIED CNN. UNCLASS And my question 1 24t ]EIED is, did you have a convensation with Ambassadon this time where he nelayed to you this convensation 2 Sondland anound 3 he had with Pnesident Zelensky about doing an intenview on CNN? 5 A No. But, I'm sonny, I guess whene I'm still confused is did -- okay. I see. Right. Ambassadon Sondland said that his 6 convensation concluded with Pnesident Zelensky. 4 a A a A a A a 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 Sure. Yeah, take your time to review that. Yeah. No, this is the first I would have heand of this. Okay. So, yeah, my -And, again, this is not involvlng me. This is involving -- Right. -- Ambassadon Sondland and Ambassadon Taylon. Yeah. And my question was, did you have similan L4 convensations with Ambassadon Sondland whene he nelayed 15 spoken 15 he was going to 77 investigation ? to Pnesident Zelensky and President A a 18 19 go on CNN to make Zelensky had agneed that announcement about the Bunisma No. Did you have any convensations with anyone about Pnesident 20 Zelensky making a statement on 27 Bunisma-nelated investigation? A I 22 the that he had CNN on othen netwonk about the had conversations with Ambassador Taylon about what I was 23 hearing fnom Ambassadon Sondland that he believed the Pnesident wanted 24 Pnesident Zelensky to go 25 that public. And Ambassadon Taylon and Ambassadon Taylon should counsel- Pnesident Zelensky not UNCLASS ] FIED I agreed to do it. a Okay. And do you know -A 0n counsel Uknainian officials not to do it. a Right. And do you know if Ambassadon Taylor, in fact, I 2 3 4 counseled at 7L L2 13 believe he did, and of did you and Ambassadon Taylor agnee that Pnesident Because we agreed Uknaine that we did not want to -- neally any Uknainian official -- see the Pnesident take a step which we this point would clearly inject them in oun politics. a Okay. I want to ask you about the September 1lth meeting whene it was decided to lift the fneeze on the assistance. believed at A a A 15 16 Okay. Do you know who panticipated My undenstanding, because 77 the Pnesident, 18 it 20 believe he said so in his statement point. And why A t4 19 I Zelensky shouldn't do that? 9 10 some a 7 8 the Uknainians not to do it? A I 5 6 242 I FIED UNCLASS was it I in that was was the Vice Pnesident, meeting? not thene, it was that it was was Senator Pontman, and Chief of Staff Mulvaney. a Okay. Do you know when the meeting occunned on Septemben l1th? 23 A I believe it was the afternoon on the evening of Septemben 1Lth. I'm basing that off of Dr. Kuppenman hearing fnom the chief of staff's office anound 8 p.m. that night that the hold was 24 lifted. 2L 22 25 a Okay. And whene did the meeting take place? UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS A I don't know. I 7 assume 243 I EIED the 0va1, but I don't know. 4 a Okay. Do you know what was discussed at the meeting? A I believe Senaton Portman was nelating, and I believe Vice President as we11, nelated thein view of the impontance of 5 assistance. 6 convensation with Pnesident Zelensky, and they wene -- they convinced 7 the Pnesident that the aid should be disbunsed immediately. 2 3 a 8 9 The Vice Pnesident was obviously anmed you know whether the Bunisma bucket Do 11 A I do not. a -- meeting? t2 So I just want to establish Ambassadon He And Secretary 16 a A L7 a And what about Deputy 15 was he who wasn't did not, to thene? thene? Was he Septemben National Secunity Advison Kuppenman, acting at that time, I guess, on Septemben 11th? L1th, I guess, he was because it was -- Monday, 9th was Ambassadon Bolton went home nepontedly having 21 delivened a letten of nesignation. And I 22 Tuesday was Septemben 23 that Ambassadon meeting, To your knowledge, of State Pompeo didn't, wasn't Septemben a thene. my knowledge. 20 25 of investigations came To my knowledge, he was not. A 19 24 with his Bolton didn't panticipate in that meeting? A L4 18 the up during that 10 13 the 10th. That was when we saw a tweet indicating Bolton had been tenminated. Okay. And, in any event, Dn. to think, if I'm connect, the youn knowledge? UNCLASS ] FIED Kupperman wasn't at that UNCLASS 244 IFIED 4 A Not to my knowledge. a Okay. And Defense Secnetany Esper wasn't thene? A I'm not 100 pencent confident Secnetany Espen was yet Secnetany of Defense. I don't remember fon a fact. We had a few in 5 that ena. But to 6 Acting Secretany was not thene. 7 2 3 a Okay. 7 my knowledge, he was Do you know why not thene. The Secnetany or the Pnesident made the decision to 11 lift the fneeze at that time? A I do not. Based on what I had been to1d, and it's not finst penson, obviously, it's second and thind penson, it was -- the case was made to the Pnesident that it was the appnopniate and pnudent thing 72 to 8 9 10 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 27 do. A Okay. And who told you that? A Dn. Kuppenman. I believe lennifen Williams nelated to me what she'd heand from her channel, hen system, per the Vice President. Yes, those people. a Okay. So Dn. Kuppenman and lennifen Williams? A Yes. a To the best of youn recollection? A Yes. a Okay. lnlene you aware that on Septemben 9th the Intelligence the Foreign Relations Committee, and the 22 Committee, 23 Ovensight had launched an investigation 24 effonts to push the Uknainians to investigate the 25 investigations ? UNCLASS I EIED Committee on into Tnump and Giuliani's Bunisma bucket of 245 UNCLASS t 2 3 4 -- the executive bnanch, the White House a letten on that day, and I think I necall seeing it. A I think had received I FIED a Okay. maybe we Did you have any discussions with folks at the NSC about that? 9 A I think it may have been discussed in a staff meeting. a Who was pnesent at that staff meeting? A If I'm connect about the staff meeting, alI of the NSC senion dinectons, Docton -- maybe, if it was the 9th, Ambassador Bolton was still in the seat. If I'm remembening it connectly, I believe it was 10 discussed in the !@ a,m. Monday senion dinectons meeting. I'm sonny, 11 thene's a 1ot of meetings, so I 5 6 7 8 L2 13 L4 15 16 not be nemembening the night meeting. a Okay. Do you nememben what A It may have happened the following week. a Do you nememben what was said about the investigation in sum and substance? A That funthen guidance would come fnom NSC Legal as to what nesponsibility L7 NSC PensonneL's 18 Pnesident decided 19 a 20 MR. NOBLE: 2L THE 22 may to respond was to be pnepaned fon howeven the to the letten. Okay. Yeah. I believe my time is CHAIRMAN: up. Mr. Monnison, do you need a bneak fon the restnoom to on anything, or do you want keep plugging along? going, sir. 23 MR. MORRISON: Keep 24 THE CHAIRMAN: 25 Mn. Caston, 45 minutes. Okay. Good man. UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS 246 I FTED houn in the majonity 2 you said thene wene four times you went to the counsel's office: aften 3 the luly 25th MR. IORDAN: So, Mn. Monnison, 1. in the last 6 caIl, aften the Wansaw meeting between the Vice Pnesident and President Zelensky, and then after the Septemben 7th Ambassadon Sondland ca1l. And then thene was another time that you went. And the othen time, I just want to be clean, was nelated to the subject 7 matten 4 5 of today's deposition? 8 MR. MORRISON: YCS. 9 MR. IORDAN: And can you 10 you can't say - give me the date that that was? I know - L4 I can't necall the date, sin. MR. IORDAN: Was it -- so we did them in sequence, the 25th of JuIy, Septemben 1st, Septemben 7th. Was it aften that? MR. MORRISON: It was after -- it was after the -- it was aften 15 the secunity assistance was neleased. LL L2 L3 MR. MORRISON: MR. JORDAN: So 16 L7 date MR. MORRISON: 19 MR. IORDAN: 23 got an idea of the Sin, unfortunately, I do not. Okay. Thank you. BY MR. CASTOR: 20 22 You ? 18 2L after Septemben 11th. a The Septemben 7th convensation, thene was a question, I think, about whethen you wene able to in some cases venify whether Ambassadon Sondland had actually talked to the Pnesident? 24 A Yes. 25 a And thene wene some instances whene you UNCLASS I FIED weren't able to 247 UNCLASS]F]ED 7 venify an actual conversation A 2 So, okay, sometimes -- I think it occurned? it was because, was Septemben 7th -- for example, on whateven I was -- I was 3 Septemben 4 exceptionally busy that monning, and I simply did not have the ability 5 to 6 did they have any -- did out to the Sit neach July 25th, On 7 Room 9 President and do L2 the White House Sit Room, to find out you know. to confinm thnough the White House Sit that that call Sondland. had occunned between the I did not have the bandwidth to that on Septemben 7th, fon example. happened So you wene neven able to venify if that call ? A I 13 L4 Ambassadon a Okay. L7 -- was able and anothen staffen 8 10 I Room, was neven able indeed speak to the to venify Pnesident that whethen Ambassador Sondland did monning. 20 a Okay. Going back to the MEMCON. If I undenstood you connectly, and this was eanly in today, so if I'm getting anything wnong, please connect me, I don't mean -- I'm not -- thene was nothing unusuaL about the prepanation of the MEMCON? Did you say that? 0n did it follow the regulan pnocess? A So the MEMCON itself was being pnepaned in the usual way 2L except fon the 22 I 15 16 t7 18 19 23 24 25 fact that I flagged fon Mn. Eisenbeng and Mr. EIIis that thought we should neduce access to that package. a Okay. And you pnovided definitive in Exec Sec and whethen there actual pnepanation of the document happened UNCLASS testimony on what was a mistake on IFIED not. But the UNCLASS A It foIlowed, as nean as I can recall, the nonmal pnocess. a Okay. And had any staffer had edits on connections you had L 2 3 248 I E]ED an open doon to discuss possible edits? 6 A Yes. a And ordinarily if any staffen -- and I think I asked you this befone if a staffer that was on the call and heand something and 7 had notes and wanted an 8 as the 4 5 edit, yoU would ondinanily install that edit final authority? A So I had myself in the postune befone the MEMCON would be 9 10 closed, so to speak, and sent off to the Exec Sec folks to process lL then be sent to Ambassadon Bolton fon him to sign 72 was I And so I neady. 13 had to have the would review any this edits pnoposed by anybody else who was I believe it on the MEMCON. So in 15 and NSC 16 was on 17 don't recall that they had any edits. 18 19 I chiefly the case that the because we do a my dinectonate Enengy Dinectonate lot with Uknaine on enengy. But I put myself in the place of a Okay. Have you seen any Colone1 Vindman's issues he naised A a 23 25 MEMCON may have been was I would be the final authonity to neview any edits pnoposed befone it would go off to Exec Sec. 22 24 the But 20 2L Legal. It off that the package final set of eyes on it. l4 case and with of the public with the neponting about MEMCON? Yes. And how do you squane what's been neponted about what he said what A Diffenent people have diffenent recollections. UNCLASS IFIED I put in my 249 UNCLASS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 statement that I belleve the I FIED MEMCON is accunate and complete. a Okay. Ane you familian with a fonmen DAS fnom the Defense Depantment, Evelyn Fankas? A a Yes. Wene you awane of any effont that infonmation on Tnump allies as MS. VAN GELDER: it nelates I'm sonny, befone she was undentaking to to get Russia? he even answens that question, 8 I'm going to say that goes back to what we'll call the whistleblower 9 attempt, that infonmation. This nelates to the whistleblowen, the 10 MR. CASTOR: 11 MS. VAN GELDER: with I -- you can ask whethen he with hen, then that's totally within believe that unless hen on had an issue L2 wonked 13 youn scope, L4 tnied to get infonmation, then that's outside the scope of what he is 15 testifying fon. sin. But if J.t's, have you wonked with hen and has Okay. We'Il just go one at a time then. 16 MR. CASTOR: 77 MS. VAN GELDER: 18 she Okay. Sune. BY MR. CASTOR: 23 a You know DAS Fankas? A DASD, yes. a Yeah. And how do you know her? A I knew hen when she was the deputy assistant secnetany of defense fon -- I think that pontfolio was RUE, Russia and Uknaine and 24 Eastenn Eunope, duning 19 20 27 22 25 the Obama administnation. A Okay. You knew hen just that way? UNCLASS IFIED UNCLASS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 250 A As a HASC staff memben, I had neason to engage with hen. a Okay. And is thene anything about any communications that you had with her in 2OL7 that you nememben? MS. VAN GELDER: Objection. The scope of this, by definition, does not stant in 2@L7. So I'm going to object it's out of scope. But also unless it nelates to the subject matten here, whateven -- if you have a discussion nelating to this then we'11 take it on a case by case. 8 MR. CASTOR: Fain enough. 9 Any othen 10 I FIED I yield Members? back. 13 I think we have a few mone questions and then we should pnobably -- we1l, what I was going to say is I think we have a few more questions. And then we should huddle with you and see if 74 we can nesolve some 15 nefused 11 L2 16 THE CHAIRMAN: I to of the questions that we've asked that answen on potential pnivilege issues. necognize Mn. Goldman. UNCLASS I F]ED you've 257 UNCLASS I L F]ED [3:05 p.m.] BY MR. GOLDMAN: 2 a 3 You nefenenced 4 Ambassadon Volken about 5 policy pnocess that 6 openating. 7 Volken earlier this altennative policy Rudy When wene some convensations that you had with pnocess on the shadow Giuliani and Ambassadon Sondland wene those convensations that you had with Ambassadon ? 7L A I necall a specific one example eanly Septemben, whene Kunt came by the office -- actually, I'm sorny, apologies -- early August, where Kunt came by the office with some of his staff, and I had Colonel Vindman and Mn. Enath accompanying me. And it was genenally an update 12 on what Kunt was doing as Special Envoy fon Uknaine Negotiations. 8 9 10 15 that subject had exhausted itself, I asked for Kunt to have his staff leave. I asked my staff to leave. And that's when I asked Kunt about what he knew of this panallel channel, 16 this panallel 13 14 When the meeting -- when pnocess. And, based on the ca1I, the Pnesident's phone cal1, based on what L7 19 Hill had nelated to me, I wanted -- I like to tny to evaluate things fon myself. I wanted to evaluate one-on-one with somebody I'd known 20 fon quite 18 27 22 23 24 25 Dn. some time what was he tnacking. a And you said eanly August. Do you have any mone specificity? A 2 August. a August 2nd? A Yes. a Okay. And what did he say to you? UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS I A 1 He 252 FIED said, yes, he was -- to the best of my necollection, he said, yes, he was awane 4 doing. I think he said he'd had some phone calIs with Mn. Giuliani and that it was his pnactice to tny to stay out of the political side of it and simply keep focused 5 on neform in Uknaine. And did the topic of these Bunisma bucket of investigations 2 3 a 6 7 of what Gondon was come up? 72 A I think the -- I don't necaLl the idea of an investigation, pen se, coming up. I recall the topic of Bunisma, the topic of -- I don't know that I specifically mentioned the senver on he mentioned the senven issue on I centainly don't have any necollection of CnowdStrike. That it was just generally, you know, what is youn take 13 on what's going on hene? How ane you involved? And we both agneed 1.4 we nea11y 8 9 10 IT a A 15 16 didn't want And what To the best of convensations with Mn. 18 Mn. 20 2t 22 23 24 25 be involved. did he say about Mn. Giuliani? 77 19 to my necollection, he said that he'd had Giuliani from time to time and that, you know, Giuliani had a belief that Uknaine was somehow involved. a Uknaine was somehow involved? A I'm sonny, that Uknaine was somehow involved in 2OL6, the election. a And what did he -- what else did he say? A I think that's effectively it. It was maybe a lO-minute stay- behind a Okay. Ten minutes is a long time. Did he give his -- UNCLASS I FIED did 253 UNCLASS I E]ED 1 he indicate 2 this to you that he was also any Uknainians on topic? topic being the -- 3 MS. VAN GELDER: The 4 MR. GOLDMAN: The 5 MR. MORRISON: The Bunisma 6 in touch with have no necollection investigations. of that if bucket. No, I don't believe so. I he did. BY MR. GOLDMAN: 7 a A And what what it is that 8 Ambassadon Sondland's nole? TL I think we both agneed that Ambassador Sondland was, you know, sort of a fnee nadical. He was sont of out thene, engaging when he wanted, and it was not always possible to keep track t2 of 9 10 Yeah, a 13 And I did he say about mean, he was doing and who he was talking to. so, as of August 2nd, aften, you know, 2-L/2 weeks on 1.4 the job, you understood, younself, that Sondland was, quote, "a fnee 15 nadicalr " unquote? 20 A I mean, I had some neason to believe that, based on Dn. Hill's, you know, wannings when we wene doing the handoff. a And had you witnessed it younself? A Yes. Not on Uknaine, but yes. a Uh-huh. And what did Ambassadon Volken say about Sondland's 27 connection with Giuliani? 16 77 18 19 A I think it 22 23 chiefly just that they wene talking, that they wene engaging negulanly on a 24 25 was was And these issues. did Ambassador Volken reveaL whether Ambassadon Sondland also engaging with any Uknainians? UNCLASS I FIED UNCLASS I L A Not 2 getting 3 What was he that I can necall. I fnom Ambassadon Volken what 254 FlED was neaIIy chiefly focused did he -- what on was he involved in? 4 I neally only had what I'd heand at this time fnom Dn. HiIl. And I think this was the finst time I was in a 5 position to talk to 6 one-on-one. 7 a seeing? Right. Because Ambassadon Volken No, it makes penfect 8 out what's going on aften this call. 9 tnying to undenstand is what 10 his expenience with other than on an open phone line, sense. I You'ne tnying to figune guess I'm just -- Ambassadon Vo1ken descnibed Ambassador Sondland what I'm to you about nelated to Uknaine. t4 A And, again, all I can necaLl is, you know, he pnovided his own -- he provided me with an additional confinmation that thene was this panallel channel and it was focused on this -- you know, thene wene these Bunisma issues. But I have no recollection of, you know, 15 Ambassadon Volken speaking about any convensations 16 VoIken, had with Uknainian L7 Ambassadon Volken 18 wene having convensations 19 matter. LL 12 13 20 21 a So he telling that that I And that 24 a A 25 a Yeah. about this subject matten Ambassadon Sondland on Mn. non Giuliani with Ukrainian officials about the subject you veny day meeting with Andney Not 23 me didn't tel1 A 22 officials that he, Ambassadon that Rudy Giuliani was in Madnid that arnanged that Yenmak? can necaII. 0n August 2nd? And that Ambassadon Volken had UNCLASS ] FIED actually UNCLASS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 2s5 I FIED meeting? A I don't believe so. a Did he mention anything about the White House visit in that meeting ? A I think that was in the main meeting, was, you know, whene wene we on getting a White House visit set up. a And what did you say? A I said it was in -- we had endonsed it, it was in the 10 to find an oppontunity. I mentioned to him -- I believe I mentioned to him that I was wonking 11 that with Bill Taylor. 9 t2 13 L4 15 t6 17 18 19 scheduling pnocess, and we were wonking a Uh-huh. Did you even hean fnom anyone that Rudy Giuliani was weighing in on whethen thene should be a meeting on not? A No, I don't think so. a But you wene awane that Rudy Giuliani had negulan communications A I with Pnesident mean, that 2L Pnesident Tnump. 24 25 I'm not sunpnised, but I don't think of that. a And you said eanlien that every time -- undenstood 23 guess I have any finsthand knowledge 20 22 I Tnump, connect? Ambassadon Sondland had and that you also regulan communications with A Centainly, Ambassadon Sondland nelated to me that he did. a Right. And eveny time that you checked to confinm whether his nepnesentations of those convensations A And that's -UNCLASS I FIED was accunate -- 256 I FIED UNCLASS 4 a -- they wene, in fact, accunate. A Sonry. Yes. Eveny time he told me he had a convensation whene I was able to search to see could I confinm that a call happened, yes, I was able to confinm a call happened. I was not able to confirm 5 that Ambassadon Sondtand's repnesentations about 6 call were accurate. t 2 3 a 7 No, I undenstand that. I just meant thene was no time when did, you know, your backgnound nesearch to 8 you 9 his nepnesentation about the fact of a call 10 11 A a to confirm whethen he did speak with Pnesident 13 a staffen also told you that he did? 15 A a 15 A I believe it 18 19 20 was wnong. call, when Trump, that also said, by the way, on that luly 25th And you you sought 77 confinm whether on not Cornect. L2 L4 the substance of the Yes. Who was the staffer? . I was an assistant to the Pnesident fon scheduling, Pnesidential scheduling. I helps to schedule the phone calls, and so you to -could neach out to I A WelI, ! helps to schedule the Pnesident's schedule. I a Okay. So 27 doesn't necessanily schedule the Pnesident's - - 22 phone all of the Pnesident's calls. 23 a 24 Aften that August 2nd convensation with Kunt Volken, did you have 25 OkaY. any mone convensations with Kunt Volken on UNCLASS ] FIED this topic? UNCLASS 1 A 0n the topic of the so-caIled Burisma 2 a 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0n the 257 I F]ED bucket? topic of the non-eastern-Ukrainian issues nelated to Uknaine, non-war issues. A No, I don't believe so. a Nothing? A I don't belleve so. I think I -a The White House visit? A -- only had one mone -- so I had one more meeting with Kurt, which I think was befone the U.N. Genenal Assemb1y. And then, if I'm 10 not mistaken, 11 U.N. Genenal Assembly meeting. 72 times poking 13 POTUS-ZeIensky Ambassadon Volken may have nesigned I the day aften the nememben Ambassadon Volker sevenaL to try to get himself a seat in the bi-Iat, in the bi-lat, and I did not suppont him getting a seat. me L7 a Did you have any discussions with him about the luly 25th call at any point, including in the UNGA? A I don't know if I had a convensation -- I don't believe I had a convensation with him at UNGA about the caIl. I believe I had 18 a convensation with him eithen immediately befone on immediately 19 the call, back to July 25th, about the caIl. L4 15 1"6 20 2t 22 23 24 25 after a What do you nememben about that? A Yeah. So I'm just looking again at what I pninted out on my calendan. I had a convensation with him on Monday, July 22nd. And I think it was -- it was an unclassified call. So I think it was only Ambassadon VoIken checking in, "Hey, is thene going to be a call? What can you tell me about ane we going to be able to land a calL?" UNCLASS I FIED 2s8 UNCLASS ] Okay. that 1 a 2 sonny. 3 whistleblowen complaint Anound And the UNGA was FIED the only other time. Did you -- oh, peniod, did you talk to him about the 5 at all? A So, no. I mean, I just want to fname -- Kunt showed up fon the bi-Iat at UNGA kind of by sunpnise. I was sont of -- I didn't undenstand why he was thene since we didn't get him a seat. He had 7 no seat 8 up 4 5 9 in the meeting. And so 1L a L2 What about Secnetany 13 Secnetany Penny about Uknaine? 15 77 18 19 20 27 22 23 24 25 A a A a A a A He was chiefly surpnised when he showed him? pnetty Pissed off at A No. 15 was that he was even thene. a And you didn't talk to 10 t4 I me. Okay. Penny? Did you have any convensations with Yes. When? How many? Thnee, three And do you So one of at the most. necaIl approximately when they them was befone the Wansaw were? bi-Iat. Which he attended, night? I talked to him befone the Wansaw bi-lat about an unrelated matten. I talked to him at the Warsaw bi-lat about the bi-1at and an unrelated matten. And I talked to him -- I mean, I talked to him at a couple PCs, fnankly, I guess, now that I'm thinking about it. He did attend the But, neally, Uknaine Wansaw was a bi-Iat. So nelated issue to othen policy mattens UNCLASS I EIED 259 UNCLASS 1 that 2 Nordstneam we wene wonking 2. The impact 4 5 6 Secnetany Penny about 7 about today? A a 8 9 in A a L2 of that pipeline affects this altennative 15 Did you even speak to been talking him about Ambassadon Sondland and his in Uknaine mattens? 18 between the United 19 claimed some cnedit fon helping memorandum States, Poland, of undenstanding on enengy secunity and Uknaine, and Ambassadon Sondland to negotiate that document. a And that was the topic of youn discussion with Secnetany 20 25 that you've No. signing a tnilatenal 24 process Did you even speak to him about Rudy Giuliani's involvement t7 23 Did you ever speak with A Yes. a When did you speak to him about that? A In the nun-up to the bi-Iat, because Secnetany Perny was 15 22 Uknaine's No. involvement L4 27 I think I -- so, fon example, Ukraine? 11 13 Fon example, a Uh-huh. A -- economy and enengy secunity. a We1I, 1et me ask you this way: 3 10 on. I EIED Pe nny ? A About Ambassadon Sondland? a A a Yeah. Yes. Wene you awane that thene's a nickname fon UNCLASS I FIED Ambassadon 260 UNCLASS I 1 FIED Sondland, Volken, and Penry? A I 2 am now. a What is it? A It's been neported, and I 3 4 have no finsthand knowledge, 6 it's the thnee amigos. a Did you even hean any of the thnee of them call 7 that 5 A I don't believe so. a So you neven discussed with Secnetany Perny any of these 9 Bunisma bucket 72 with Mn. Bnechbuhl? A a 14 15 15 No. What about Geonge A He would've been on vanious secure 18 appointments. 19 PCCs 2t Kent? Did you have any occasion to with him? I undenstand he's sont of a leveI below L7 20 of investigations? A I did not. a What about U1nich Bnechbuhl? Did you even discuss Uknaine 7L L3 themselves ? 8 10 that that I think he would've come to speak you. video teleconfenence one on mone of the Uknaine we wene nunning. a Uh-huh. Did you even have any convensations with him whene he expnessed concenns about the Sondtand-Giuliani bucket of issues? 23 A I necall a PCC whene he expnessed concern about Ambassadon Sondland's role in Ukraine at all, but not any of the 24 investigation/Bunisma bucket issues. 22 25 a Was that a private convensation between the two UNCLASS I FIED of you? 261 UNCLASS L 2 3 4 I FIED A No. It might've been duning the PCC itself. a Duning the PCC, he announced to the whole room that he was concenned about Ambassadon Sondland's nole? A I think the way he fnamed it is just in tenms of, we wene 5 doing a status check. State, what have youn engagements been with 6 Ukraine 7 evenybody knows what evenybody 8 fnamed 9 Iate1y, but we don't lately? it 10 a 11 And Again, part of the object of the Tnump had L4 Uknaine. 18 19 20 2L 22 A a little bit we take a moment to talk to youn lawyer, about genenal complaints that Pnesident about Eunope not pnoviding enough secunity assistance to Yes. Ane you aware that Eunope pnovides a lot of to Uknaine? A Roughly 15 billion eunos, yes. a Right. That's quite a significant economic assistance amount of assistance to Uknaine, connect? A Not secunity assistance. a Right. So youn understanding is that 23 undenstood 24 assistance 25 believe the way he know why." the last thing befone 13 L7 I Okay. you've descnibed a 16 And is to make sune was, "We undenstand Ambassadon Sondland has been to Uknaine t2 15 is doing. PCC Pnesident the nuance between secunity assistance Tnump money and economic ? A I know Pnesident Tnump was concenned UNCLASS I FIED that the United States UNCLASS 262 IFIED essentially the only supponten of secunity-secton assistance to 1 was 2 Uknaine. 4 a In any of youn matenials that you pnoduced as pant of this pnocess to, as you descnibed it, to convince Pnesident Tnump to nelease 5 the aid, did you even authonize or include the fact that Eunope pnovided 6 15 3 biltion euros of economic assistance? off the necord.] 7 IDiscussion 8 MR. MORRISON: We made sune 9 wene complete and accunate. BY MR. GOLDMAN: 10 is that a "yes"? t2 a A 13 complete and 74 in the Pnesident's briefing 7L the Pnesident's bniefing matenials So tnle made sune the Pnesident's bnief ing matenials accunate. I don't want to get into what was and was not matenials. 15 MR. GOLDMAN: Maybe now 16 THE CHAIRMAN: if wene I just is a good time to discuss this. have one question, and then why we can nesolve some pnivilege issues. don't we And we'11 stop t7 huddle and see 18 the clock, and then we'I1 go back on the clock and then see if the 19 minority has followup questions as well. 20 The last question I have is: Did Ambassadon Sondland have an aide 21 on an assistant who wonked with him on what we'ne descnibing as the 22 innegulan channel issues? Someone 23 with him or that you could 24 MR. MORRISON: 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Do neach No. It that, to your knowledge, tnaveled out to if you needed to contact him? was always Gondon himself. you know who his UNCLASS I FIED staff was? MR. 1 2 M0RRISON: I engaged 263 IEIED UNCLASS with the U.S. EU Mission staff on various topics fnom time to time. those staff, 3 THE CHAIRMAN: And 4 MR. MORRISON: He may fnom It's not uncommon for would they have been with him. 6 them, you know, with baggage calls and things }ike 7 neca11 8 with mean, wheneven we wene in this -- Gondon wene one-on-one, phone Why 10 don't we recess calls to have somebody help that. most of But I don't my engagements and such. fon discussions, and we'11 tny to quick, as we would like to get you out at a reasonable t2 MR. MORRISON: Thank 13 IRecess. ] L4 THE CHAIRMAN: 15 an Ambassadon THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 9 11 Eunope? time to time have had an aide travel 5 -- I in you, make them houn. Chainman. Okay. Let's go back on the recond. And we can continue the clock fnom hene. I'm handing it oven to Mr. 16 And 77 MR. GOLDMAN: Thank Go1dman. you, Mn. Chainman. BY MR. GOLDMAN: 18 a 19 I'm going to go back to the Mn. Monrison, cincumstances the fneeze on the secunity-secton assistance. And you 20 sunnounding 21 said that, after the Deputies Committee meeting on JuLy 26, you 22 a conversation with 23 Committee meeting on the 24 to 25 accurate punsue Ambassadon a Pnincipals topic had Bolton about holding a Pnincipals and that Ambassador Bo1ton decided not Committee meeting on ? UNCLASS IFIED that topic. Is that 264 UNCLASS I EIED L A Conrect. 2 a What was 3 the neason that Bolton gave you fon not Ambassadon holding the Principals Committee meeting? A 4 He believed of that it was unnecessany, that he already had a the pnincipals wene, and he wanted to get 5 neasonable idea 6 dinectly to the Pnesident as eanly as possible in the most effective 7 way. a A 8 9 10 whene And whene did he undenstand that the pnincipals That they wene all wene? suppontive of the continued disbunsement of the aid. a 11 And, in fact, that was pnetty much the unanimous position 1.4 of the entire intenagency, night? A It was the unanimous position of the entine intenagency. a Uh-huh. And is it fain to say that, by the end of JuIy, the 15 intenagency genenally believed 15 true to his L2 13 A 17 commitment What I that Zelensky had been, to that point, fon nefonm? would say is, the intenagency believed it was 18 impontant to give Zelensky a chance. He had not yet nealIy been able L9 to 20 would be seated, which 2L 22 23 24 25 demonstnate a When pnosecution that he would deliven, just didn't happen because until the end of when of August. the did he implement the high count fon connuption ? A f don't have that date in mind. a But it was befone the Rada A That sounds night to me. UNCLASS I FIED Rada 265 UNCLASSIFIED a 1 2 none And of the that fainly significant anticonnuption Pnesidents had done. Is that night? was a pnevious 3 A Connect. 4 a And so why did Ambassador Bolton want 5 say that 6 to discuss Ambassadon A 7 9 Sor that sonny. Did you Bolton wanted to tny to get the Pnesident one-on-one this issue? No. it that to do nathen than -He wanted to get the pnincipals themselves in with the a A 8 -- move What was he wanted 11 to convey thein suppont dinectly. a I see. And what effonts did he take to convene that meeting? L2 A 10 13 L4 15 16 t7 Pnesident it if neady We1l, that was the impetus behind dnafting the PDM, having fon him to take with him to Bedminsten on 1.6 August, so that to naise it with the Pnesident, he would be pnepaned to have that instrument fon the Pnesident to sign and memonialize the nelease of the aid. a Got it. And did they have time in the meeting to pnesent thene was an oppontunity 20 it to the Pnesident? A They did not. a You said that, 2L pnincipals gathened and did discuss Uknaine. 22 as well? 18 19 23 24 25 pnion to that meeting, you leanned that the Was that in Bedminsten A That's my undenstanding. a What did you leann about that discussion? A I leanned that they all nepresented to Ambassadon Bolton that UNCLASS IF]ED UNCLASS 1 they wene prepared to 2 and disbunsement teIl the Pnesident they endorsed the swift nelease of the funding. a Okay. And, by this time, by August 16th -- 3 Did Ambassadon Bolton even tny 4 5 266 IF]ED withdnawn. to pnovide the PDM to the Pnesident aften the August 16th meeting? 8 A a A 9 to meet with 5 7 to Not my knowledge. Why not? WeII, it was August 16th. We wene expecting the Pnesident Pnesident Zelensky on 1 Septemben. It's the middle of LL it's about 2 weeks. I believe Ambassadon Bo1ton did not think, although I necall trying to figure out if we could, get the key t2 pnincipals togethen with the President to get the decision made. 13 quickly detenmined they L4 on 10 15 16 77 18 19 August; vacation. a A a A a And So wene a1I oven the place and of them wene the next oppontunity nealIy would be Wansaw. did that oppontunity anise in Wansaw? No. Because the Pnesident didn't go? Cornect. And you also testified eanlien that 20 have a one-on-one meeting 27 secunity assistance. Ambassadon with the President nelated to Bolton did Uknaine Is that night? -- he neven -- 22 MS. VAN GELDER: He never 23 MR. GOLDMAN: He never answened. A11 night. BY MR. GOLDMAN: 24 25 some We a Did the Pnesident have a meeting with Ambassadon Bolton, UNCLASS I FIED a 267 UNCLASS I EIED 1 one-on-one meeting, nelated to Uknaine secunity assistance? t2 A Yes. a When was that meeting? A I don't necall exactly. a Befone Wansaw? A No, I don't think so. a After Wansaw? A WelL, so excuse me. It was befone Wansaw. I hesitated because I believe it was -- I believe it was also befone Bedminsten. a 0h, it was before Bedminsten. A Yes. a Okay. And can you descnibe fon us whethen there was a change 13 of counse in youn duties that flowed fnom that meeting? t4 any instnuctions fon you that flowed fnom that meeting? 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 LT A I 15 was told to continue to }ook fon oppontunities to get the 1.6 principals togethen to t7 the Pnesident about this topic. a 18 open 20 occunned 2t 22 23 24 25 have the direct, in-penson convensation with Did you understand, at that point, that the Pnesident to neleasing the secunity assistance, 19 A at that meeting? Ambassadon Bolton's one-on-one meeting with the Yes. sometime pnion to Bedminsten? Right. UNCLASS ] FIED was based on what you undenstood Pnesident a A a Wene thene UNCLASS off the necond.] t IDiscussion 2 MR. MORRISON: The Pnesident was 3 nelease a 5 assistance. And did you undenstand what the neason that he had was? Did you have an undenstanding of that? A I only -- 7 a A 8 9 10 not yet ready to appnove the BY MR. GOLDMAN: 4 6 of the 268 I FIED Fnom Ambassadon Bo1ton? The extent of my necollection simply said he wasn't neady to do A 11 that he had about the any concenns 13 descnibing hene today? A So thene was Bolton it. Did you have any discussions with T2 L4 is that Ambassadon Ambassadon Bolton about altennative pnocess that you've the genenal concenn Ambassadon Bolton had about -- genenal, not specific to Ukraine. And thene 15 Ambassadon Sondland 16 was 17 Ambassadon Sondland 18 dinection fnom Ambassadon Bolton was, "Do not get involved, and 19 sune 20 27 22 23 24 25 the specific been concenn we both shaned about what we understood chiefly to be doing, about which my consistent make the lawyens ane tnacking. " finst time that you spoke to Ambassador Bolton about that specific issue related to Uknaine? A I believe it would've been anound the 7 August -- was it 7 August? -- 7 August phone cal1. necall the a Do you a A With Ambassadon Taylon? Ambassadon Sondland. When UNCLASS did IF]ED I -- I had an early -- what 269 UNCLASS ] EIED 1 was the convensation I had with Ambassadon Sondland? off the necond.] 2 IDiscussion 3 MR. MORRISON: So thene was the genenal admonition fnom I finst took oven and I told him about my finst 4 Ambassadon Bolton when 5 non-Uknaine convensation with Ambassadon Sondland, whene he said, 6 essentially, ignone him, don't talk to And thene was 7 with -- on Uknaine, the had 9 would've been on -- it was finst convensation the Septemben 1 call. And to his office aften the Septemben 7th call. 10 went over 11 I'm tnying to keep stnaight in I would've then, again, I So that's what my head. BY MR. GOLDMAN: L2 a 13 So, even after you had the convensation with Kunt Volker in office L4 youn 15 the topic of A a 16 L7 on August 2nd, you didn't speak Ambassadon Sondland and Not -- to Ambassador Bolton about his effonts fon a month? yeah, not yet. Did you have any convensations with Ambassadon Bolton about his concerns about Rudy Giuliani on any concenns about Rudy Giuliani? L9 A No. 20 a Did the 2L him. Ambassadon Bo1ton about what Ambassadon Sondland was doing 8 18 just names Igon Fnuman and Lev Pannas even come acnoss youn desk? A a 22 23 Not across mine, no. Did John Eisenbeng relay any concenns to you about 24 of altennative 25 me put pnocess it this way: this sont that we've been discussing here today? 0n let Did John Eisenbeng even nelay to you any concenns UNCLASS I FIED 270 FIED UNCLASS I 1 about 2 3 4 about Ambassadon Sondland and his efforts? A Yes. Centainly aften the 1 September phone call. 5 6 Centainly aften the 7 Septemben phone call. a Uh-huh. And what concenns did he naise, did he expness to 7 8 this pnessune for these investigations? A No. a Any concerns about -- did you discuss with him any concenns you ? 15 A I don't knowthat he -- I don't knowthat he nelayed concenns to me. I think it was mone of a one-way bniefing, one-way convensation. a He took it in? A Yes. a Did he take notes? A I don't necall. Sometimes I can necall him taking notes on conversations we had; sometimes not. I think he was kind of Iike me, 16 in the case 77 needed to take. 9 10 7L t2 13 L4 a 18 19 MEMCON 20 it 27 him? 22 23 that he typically took notes actlon he you said eanlier that he indicated that the tnansfen of the to the highly classified was taken A when thene was an off of that As been taken system was a system aften of the third week of a Do you know whY? 25 A No. Septemben, UNCLASS Do you know that discussion that off. 24 mistake. I F]ED it was not if you had with -- it had not UNCLASS a 1 2 Did you suggest restnicted that it 27L I EIED be put back on the nonmal system with access? 4 A I don't know that I affirmatively suggested it. I think I assumed that it would be moved down when we discovened that it was put 5 thene by mistake. 3 a 5 7 pontal a nestrict 13 t4 16 77 They But would you be able to dinect the Executive Secnetany to access? A Yes. a So why didn't you just do that? A I think I was looking fon, sont of, a second opinion that t2 15 ? contnol those penmissions. 10 11 not able to nestnict access, younself, on the nonmal A No. That's a function of the Executive Secnetary. 8 9 Ane you I was not ovenneacting. a In what way would you be overneacting? A I guess I don't want to speculate. I just -- I thought it 20 to make sune they agneed with me that this was the kind of thing that menited a mone restnicted access. a And I think my last question. I don't know if -- Chainman 2t Schiff may have 22 at the NSC, whethen 23 infonmation on matenial related 24 investigations to the Pnesident? 18 19 25 appnopnlate A I am a couple mone. But do you know, duning youn tenune not the National Secunity Council even pnovided any awane to this Bunisma bucket of of any NSC matenial being UNCLASS I FIED pnovided to the 272 UNCLASS 7 Pnesident on I FIED this topic. this topic," 2 MS. VAN GELDER: "0n 3 MR. MORRISON: The Bunisma bucket. 6 mean? BY MR. GOLDMAN: 4 5 you Sonny. Did you say a matenial non-NSC matenial, on did you say NSC ? t7 A If I did, I misspoke. I am not aware of any NSC matenial being pnovided to the Pnesident on this topic. a And ane you aware of any othen matenial that has even been provided to the Pnesident on this topic? A No. We1I, with the potential exception of -- I'm not 72 necessanily awane, but one could speculate about what 13 Sondland was pnoviding the 7 8 9 10 Pnesident. I Ambassadon mean, he pne-briefed him fon 77 this July 25th call. a Right. On Rudy Giuliani, fon example. A So I don't have any -- I don't have any knowledge of any Giuliani-POTUS engagements. I said eanlien I could speculate that L8 they did, because he's the Pnesident's pensonal attonney, but l4 15 16 20 Right. THE CHAIRMAN: I just 2L In the one-on-one meeting 19 22 MR. GOLDMAN: did the topic of the OkaY. have a couple questions. Bunisma bucket 23 MR. MORRISON: Not that 24 THE CHAIRMAN: And in the 25 know whethen anyone between Mn. Bolton and the Pnesident, of issues come up? Ambassadon Bolton discussed with Bedminsten principals meeting, in that meeting brought up what you've UNCLASS I EIED me. do you descnibed UNCLASS L as the Bunisma bucket of issues? not that 2 MR. MORRISON: Mn Chainman, 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 4 Any othen questions fnom 5 Any questions fnom the minority? 6 MR. CASTOR: We'ne good. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: I was even informed. Membens? Thank you, sin. WeII, we are nemankably on time, which, 8 soy, I'm shocked. WeII, 10 minutes 9 we'ne at least 273 I F]ED I have to late, but by congnessional time, an houn eanIy. 10 Mn. Monrison, thank you fon youn testimony today. 11 MR. MORRISON: Thank L2 THE you, sin. CHAIRMAN: And you ane excused. And I know we have some othen I think, that Mn. londan wanted to naise, 13 business, L4 youn testimony, and happy Halloween. 15 MR. MORRISON: Thank 16 [Wheneupon, at you, but thank you fon Chainman. 4:Q9 p.m., the deposition was concluded.] UNCLASS I FIED