1 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE, 4 joint with 5 COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM 6 and the 7 COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS, 8 U.S. 9 wAsHrNGToN, D.C. HOUSE the OF REPRESENTATIVES, 10 11 72 13 DEPOSITION OF: JENNIFER WILLIAMS 74 15 76 t7 Thunsday, Novemben 18 7, 2@19 Washington, D.C. 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 in the above matter was held in Capitol Visiton Centen, commencing at 9:35 a.m. The deposition Room HVC-304, Present: Repnesentatives Schiff, Swalwell, Heck, Maloney, Demings. AIso Pnesent: Raskin, Nonton, Penny, Jordan, and Meadows. UNCLASSIFIED and 2 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 Appeanances: 3 4 5 Fon the PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE: Fon the COMMITTEE 6 7 8 9 10 11 72 13 74 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 0N OVERSIGHT AND REFORM: 24 25 UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 4 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Fon the COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS: 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Fon ]ENNIFER WILLIAMS: 9 10 EMILY 1L ]USTIN 72 CALEB HAYES.DEATS 13 ELIZABETH SAWYER L4 MOLOLAMKEN L5 600 New Hampshine Ave, 16 Washington, 0. C . 20037 DAMRAU SHUR N.W. UNCLASSIFIED 5 UNCLASSIFIED 1 THE CHAIRMAN: We'11 come to the to onden. Good monning, Ms. Wi11iams, Select Committee on Intelligence 2 and welcome 3 which, along with the Foneign Affains and Ovensight Committees, is 4 conducting 5 6 House Penmanent this investigation as pant of the official inquiny of the House of Repnesentatives. Today's deposition is being conducted as a part impeachment of the impeachment 7 inquiry. In light of attempts by the Office of the Vice Pnesident to 8 dinect you not to coopenate with the inquiny, the committee had no 9 choice but to compel youn appeanance today. We thank you for complying 10 with a duly authonized congnessional subpoena, as othen cunnent and 11 fonmen 72 officials fnom acnoss the Fedenal Govennment have done. Ms. Williams curnently senves as the Special Advisen fon Eunope in the Office of the Vice Pnesident. detailed 13 and Russia L4 to this position fnom the State Depantment since April 2OL9. 15 Williams 16 pneviously held posts at our embassies in the United Kingdom, Lebanon, 77 and lamaica. L8 Ms. is a long-senving She has been careen Foneign Senvice Officen, Williams, thank you fon youn senvice. We Ms. and look fonwand to youn 2t of and involvement in key policy discussions, meetings, and decisions on Ukraine that nelate dinectly to aneas unden investigation by the committees. This 22 includes developments nelated to the necall of 23 the Pnesident's Ju1y 25, 2079, call with Ukrainian President Zelensky; 24 the hold placed on the Pnesident on neanly 25 on neanly $400 million 19 20 testimony today, including your knowledge Ambassadon Yovanovitch; -- placed by the Pnesident of secunity assistance for Uknaine; UNCLASSIFIED and the Vice 6 UNCLASSIFIED call with Pnesident Zelensky in 1 Pnesident's meeting and phone 2 Septemben. 3 Pnesident's response to the impeachment inquiry, including the 4 committee's request fon documents, with which the Vice Pnesident has 5 nefused to We wilt also have questions about the Office of the Vice comply. Finally, to nestate what I 5 and othens have emphasized will not tolenate in oun any nepnisal, thneat of 7 intenviews, Congness 8 nepnisal, or attempt to netaliate against any U.S. 9 fon testifying befone Congress, including you on any of your Govennment official It is disturbing that the Office of the Vice Pnesident, 10 colleagues. 7L in coordination with the White L2 senvant, such as younself, fnom coopenating with the inquiny and with 13 Congness and have House, has sought to pnohibit a public 15 say. This is unacceptable. Thankfully, consummate pnofessionals like you have demonstnated nemankable counage in coming fonwand to testify and telI 16 the tnuth. t4 tnied to limit what you can 19 to committee counsel to begin the intenview, I invite Ranking Memben Nunes on, in his absence, a minonity memben of the Foneign Affairs on Ovensight Committees to make any opening 20 remanks. t7 18 Befone I tunn 2t MR. IORDAN: Thank you, Mn. Chairman. 22 I just want to welcome Ms. Williams and thank hen fon her senvice 23 to oun countny. you. Mr. Goldman. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank 25 MR. GOLDMAN: Thank you, Mn. Chainman. UNCLASSIF]ED 7 UNCLASSIFIED This 1 is a deposition of Jennifen Williams Intelligence punsuant to the 2 Permanent Select Committee on 3 inquiny announced by the Speaker of the 4 and affinmed by House Resolution Ms. Williams, 5 6 spe1l your name well 66@ House on Septemben impeachment 24th, 2O19, on Octoben 31st, 2O19. you could please now state youn fuII name and fon the recond. lennifen Williams. And, sorny, spell that MS. WILLIAvIS: 7 8 last if conducted by the House as on MR. GOLDMAN: Common spelling? 9 10 MS. WILLIAVIS: Common 11 MR. GOLDMAN: Along spel1ing, yes. with othen proceedings in funthenance of the L2 inquiny to date, this deposition 13 by L4 Foneign is pant of a joint investigation led the Intelligence Committee, in coondination with the Committees on Affains and Ovensight and Refonm. In the noom today ane majonity staff and minonity staff fnom all 15 will staff-Ied deposition. 16 thnee committees. And this t7 of 1,8 the case in eveny deposition since the inception of this investigation. 19 be a counse, fidy ask questions during thein allotted time, as has been My name is Daniel Goldman. I'm the Dinecton of Investigations 20 fon the Intelligence Committee's majonity 27 you, again, fon coming in today. 22 Membens, Let me do some bnief intnoductions. staff, To my and I right want hene to thank is Daniel 23 Noble. He's the Senion Investigative Counsel fon the Intelligence 24 Committee's majority 25 of the intenview fon the majonity. staff. Mn. Noble and UNCLASSIFIED I will be conducting most 8 UNCLASSIFIED And now 7 2 I'lI ask my minonity countenpants to intnoduce themselves. MR. CASTOR: Steve Caston 3 with the Republican staff. 4 5 6 7 8 9 will be conducted entinely at the unclassified level. Howeven, it is being conducted in HPSCI secune MR. GoLDMAN: 10 spaces and 11 cleanances. This deposition in the pnesence of staff with appnopriate security It is the committee's L2 expectation that neithen questions asked L7 of you, non answens provided by you, will nequire discussion of any information that is cunnently on at any point could be propenly classified unden Executive Onden t3526. You ane neminded that EO-13526 states that, quote, "In no case shall information be classified, continue to be maintained as classified, on fail to be 18 declassifiedr " unquote, fon the punpose of concealing any violations 19 of 13 L4 15 16 20 law on preventing embannassment of any penson on entity. If any of oun questions can only be answened with classified fact befone you answen the 27 infonmation, please infonm us of that 22 question and we can adjust accondingly. 23 Today's deposition of the sensitive 24 because 25 and matenials that will is not being taken in executive and confidential natune of be discussed, access UNCLASSIFIED some session but, of the topics to the transcnipt of the 9 UNCLASSIFIED will be limited 1 deposition 2 Unden 3 memben 4 today. 5 tnanscnipt befone attendance. the House deposition nules, no Member of Congness non any staff of the testimony that you pnovide will have an oppontunity to neview the can discuss the substance You and youn attonney it is Befone we begin, 6 to the thnee committees in will I neleased. would like to go over the ground nules fon this 7 deposition. 8 depositions which we have previously pnovided to youn counsel. 9 deposition to We will be following the House negulations fon pnoceed as follows: The majonity ask questions, then the minonity will wiII be given one be given one houn. 10 houn 11 Theneaften, we will altennate back and fonth between majonity L2 minonity in 45-minute nounds until questioning 13 take peniodic bneaks, but t4 us you need a bneak is complete. We and will at any time, please let know. Unden 15 if The the House deposition nuIes, counseL for othen persons on 16 govennment agencies may not attend the deposition. You ane penmitted L7 to this deposition 18 have brought counsel. 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 have an attonney pnesent during At this time, if and I see that you counsel could please state thein appeanances fon the necond. MR. SHUR: lustin Shun, Emily Damnau, and Ca1eb Hayes-Deats fon Ms. Williams. MR. GOLDMAN: Thene is a stenognaphen taking down everything that is said hene today in onden to make a wnitten recond of the deposition. Fon that necond to be clean, please wait until each question is UNCLASSIFIED 10 UNCLASSIFIED will wait until L completed befone you begin youn answen, and we 2 finish 3 stenognaphen cannot necond nonvenbal answens, such as shaking youn 4 head, so it 5 venbal answen. 6 We youn nesponse befone asking you the next ask is question. you The impontant that you answen each question with an audible that you give complete neplies to questions, based on youn 8 If a question is unclean or you ane uncentain in youn nesponse, please let us know. And if you do not know the answen 9 to a question on cannot nememben, simply say so. 7 10 best necollection. You may only nefuse to question to pnesenve a pnivilege answen a the committee. If you refuse to answen a question 11 necognized by L2 the basis of pnivilege, staff 13 deposition, on seek a nuling fnom the chainman on the objection. L4 the chain overnules any such objection, 15 question. 16 And t7 pnovide finalIy, eithen continue to proceed with the may You ane nequined If to answen the it is unlawful to delibenately to Membens of Congness on staff. It is you ane neminded false infonmation on that 19 truthfully, but that you give fu1I and complete answens to al1 questions asked of you. 20 Omissions may also be considened as 18 2t 22 23 24 25 imperative that you not only answen oun questions As this deposition is unden stand and naise youn night hand Do you swear that false oath, Ms. WiIliams, would you please to be swonn. youn testimony pnovided hene today whole tnuth and nothing but the tnuth? MS. WILLIAVIS: I statements. dO. UNCLASSIFIED will be the 11 UNCLASSIFIED 1. MR. GOLDMAN: Thank 2 And have any mattens to discuss, MS. WILLIAMS: 5 6 You may be seated. let the necond neflect that the witness has been swonn. Ms. Williams, if you have an opening statement on youn attorneys 3 4 you. I now do not have an opening statement MR. GOLDMAN: Nothing fnom 8 MR. SHUR: Nothing. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Noble Thank is the attonney? necognized fon one houn. MR. NOBLE: Thank you, Mn. Chairman. EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. NOBLE: L2 13 today. you. 7 10 is the time. Ms. Williams, you wene detailed fnom the State Depantment a t4 to the Office of the Vice Pnesident in Apnil of this yean. Is that 15 connect ? 16 A That is L7 a Can you connect. just descnibe bniefly youn expenience, youn 21. to being detailed to OVP? A Sune. So I joined the Depantment of Homeland Secunity in 2OO5, shontly aften gnaduating fnom univensity, and I senved fon Secnetary Michael Chentoff fon neanly 1 yean as a political appointee. 22 And then duning 23 the Foneign Senvice Ln 2QO6. 18 19 20 24 25 govennment expenience pnion Duning my that time, I took the Foneign Senvice neanly 14 yeans in the Foneign Senvice, exam and I've joined done touns, as mentioned, in Jamaica, Beirut, Lebanon, wonked on the Synia UNCLASSIFIED L2 UNCLASSIFIED 4 crisis fon oun Refugee Bureau fon about 4 yeans, senved oun Deputy Secnetany of State covening Middle East and Nonth Afnica policy, did a yean of gnaduate school duning that time as weI1, and most necently, senved fon 3 yeans at oun Embassy in London as a Public 5 Affains Officen. L 2 3 humanitarian to the -- to 7 a A Yes, 8 a And can you 6 9 Did you go I the Embassy in the U.K.? did. nesponsibilities in A Sune. I 10 OVP fnom just descnibe bniefly youn noles and OVP? am one of the Vice Pnesident's Special Advisens on t2 his foneign policy team. I senve in the National Secunity Affairs Office unden the command of Lieutenant Genenal Keith Ke11ogg, who is 13 the National Secunity Advison to the Vice President. In 1.4 coven Eunope and Russia issues. 11 So, in that regard, 15 I my role, I keep the Vice Pnesident awane and abneast 16 of all foneign policy issues going on in that negion, prepane him fon t7 his foneign policy 18 phone 19 ovenseas 20 2t 22 23 24 25 calls and foneign leaden engagements, whethen on in-penson meetings here in Washington, as to the EunoPean negion. a And does that include mattens nelating to A It does. a What is the Vice Pnesident's nole as it nelations with oun Eunopean aI1ies, and Uknaine A policy and by well as tnavel Ukraine? nelates in that's to U.S. panticulan? So the Vice Pnesident cannies out the President's foneign is a key advisen to the President, as well as a nepnesentative UNCLASSIFIED 13 UNCLASSIFIED L of the 2 leadens, again, both hene in tlJashington and ovenseas, often 3 panticipates in meetings with the Pnesident as well as holds his 4 meetings with ovenseas leaders. govennment overseas. He often has intenactions with foneign In the case of Uknaine, I can only speak to 5 my own time since starting 6 in April, but once Pnesident Zelensky was elected in Apni1, the Vice 7 Pnesident elected to make a congnatulatony 8 Ieaden in onden to establish a good nelationship with him. And 9 call of his own to the new I've kept him up to date on developments in Ukraine thnoughout 10 the summen. And as -- as the committees ane awane, theVice Pnesident tt was asked by 12 the Vice Pnesident met with Pnesident Zelensky fon the 13 so 74 he a 15 meetings the Pnesident to go to Poland in eanly Septemben, whene and has spoken finst time, with him by phone aften that as well. And you pnepped the Vice Pnesident fon those phone cal1s A That's night. L7 a We'11 go thnough those as we kind of go thnough the outline. 18 In youn no1e, do you communicate dinectly with any Uknainian 19 officials? 2t A that. I 22 the Uknainian 23 and ? 16 20 and Not was often. Oun Embassy in Kyiv neaIIy takes the lead on in touch fon logistical Embassy hene in in JuIy. 24 Washington 25 JuIy 9th, and so, I at vanious points with related to potential visits. of Uknainian officials that came to The gnoup met helped punposes Washington And thene was a delegation Govennment with my boss, Genenal Kellogg, facilitate that meeting. UNCLASSIFIED on But othen than 74 UNCLASSIFIED r 2 3 + 5 G 7 8 9 10 It t2 13 L4 1s t6 L7 18 19 zo 21 22 23 24 25 that, I have Q engagement directly with Uknainian officials. typically interact with kind of in the on Ukraine mattens? Who are youn points of contact at And who do you intenagency State, limited DOD, and A I the NSC? wonk pnobably most closely with my NSC colleagues, with Lieutenant Colonel Alex Vindman, who's kind of my counterpant on the NSC, HiIl, but also with his supenions as well. So pneviously, Dr. Fiona mone Buneau of recently Tim Monnison. At the State Depantment, with the Eunopean Affains and the office that covers Uknaine policy, including Deputy Assistant Secnetany Phil Reeken, and conrespondence Geonge Kent, Assistant Secnetary the Ukraine desk team. And then I'm often on email with oun Embassy colleagues in Kyiv, but not as much in-person intenaction. a And who typically do you cornespond with at the Embassy in Kyiv? A I've been on email cornespondence with Ambassadon Bill Taylon. I don't often neach out to him dinectly. It's usually mone I'm copied on email Embassy's penspective. And, YoU know, in the lead-up to vanious engagements was in cornespondence on developments going on fnom the that the Vice Pnesident contact with the had Embassy duning a Okay. You nefenenced a call President Zelensky in Apni1. I think with Ukrainian officials, I those times. between Pnesident Trump and you said call. Is that night? A That's right. UNCLASSIFIED it was a congnatulatony 15 UNCLASSIFIED a That's the call on Apnil 21st? A The Pnesident's call was Apnil 2Lst. 1 2 3 The Vice President called Zelensky 2 days later on Apnil 23rd. 11 a Okay. Did you -- wene you involved in pnepping the Pnesident for his call on Apnil 21st? A I was not. a Did you listen in on that call? A No. a Did you even get a neadout of that call? A I saw the tnanscnipt of that call in pnepanation fon the Vice Pnesident's calL 2 days laten. We wanted to make sune the Vice 72 President was aware of what the Pnesident's convensation had been. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 a 13 t4 15 16 you necall the contents of that call tnanscnipt? Was that like a memcon of the call? A It was a tnanscnipt in tenms of fonmat veny similan to the one that's been neleased nelated to the Ju1y calI. So similan fonmat. a t7 18 Do Do you necall the substance of the convensation between Pnesident Tnump and Pnesident Zelensky on Apnil 21st? 20 A I do. It was a nelatively bnief caII, I'd say maybe 10 minutes on so. It was reaLly focused on congnatulating President 2L Zelensky on his victony 22 taken place that day, and looking fonwand to a good nelationship with 23 him. 19 24 a 25 any nefenence in the recent Pnesidential election which had To youn knowledge, was thene to any -- on necollection, was thene of the investigations into Bunisma, the Bidens, UNCLASSIFIED 16 UNCLASSIF]ED t o? 2OL6 duning A a 2 3 4 Thene was not. Did you pnep the Vice President fon his said Apnil call on, I think you 23rd. Is that night? A r did. a And what -- did you participate in that call? A r did. a Can you descnibe the convensation between Vice Pnesident 5 6 7 8 9 that phone call? Pence and Pnesident Zelensky? A Sune. It 10 was similan. It was an offen of congratulations 11 fon Pnesident Zelensky's necent victony, which 72 victony in that nace. They talked, again, also about the impontance 13 of the U.S.-Uknaine nelationship 1.4 to 15 he had nun, which was veny much focused on anticonnuption, and looking 16 to nealIy bning Uknaine even closen to the tnans-At1antic and Eunopean L7 community. And there was discussion 18 Pnesident Tnump 19 Pnesident Pence as we11, 20 not yet been set. a 22 Tnump's 23 House meeting 24 phone 25 and how eagen we wene, the U.S. was, see Pnesident Zelensky take steps 21 Was call was an ovenwhelming to implement the agenda on which -- Pnesident Zelensky invited initially, but thene was discussion about Vice to his inaugunation, but the date of that had thene discussion on the -- sorny, going back to Pnesident 21st, was thene any discussion of a possible White fon Pnesident Zelensky, or a meeting with call that you can necall? A I don't necall that in that initial Apnil UNCLASSIFIED Tnump on 21st that call. I t7 UNCLASSIFlED 1 recall 2 inaugunation Pnesident Zelensky invited Pnesident Tnump to attend his 3 in Kyiv. Again, the date hadn't been set, and the Pnesident acknowledged the invitation without making a commitment 4 the at that time. phone a 5 on And did Vice Pnesident Pence nefenence anything nelating to 6 a meeting between Pnesident Trump and Pnesident Zelensky duning his 7 Apnil 23nd call? 11 A I don't believe so. Again, it was mone focused at that time on the issue of who might attend the inaugunation. So Pnesident Zelensky, in the Vice Pnesident's caI1, also extended the invitation to Pnesident Tnump on Vice Pnesident Pence if the Pnesident wasn't 12 available, and the Vice Pnesident looked forwand to accepting that 13 invitation if the dates wonked out. 8 9 10 a t4 In pnepanation fon the Vice Pnesident's calL with Pnesident 15 Zelensky, did anyone at the White House on National Secunity Council L6 pnovide any A I L7 talking points or othen lnput fon the Vice wonked Pnesident? with Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, since he had the Pnesident's briefing papens fon his call 2 days pnion. 18 pnepaned 19 So 20 but not the talking points, pen se, fon the conversation. I wanted to make sune 2L a 22 THE CHAIRMAN: that the substance was in line with U.S. policy, calls and the invitation -Can you explain a little mone about -- Following those phone 23 mentioned how you pnepane the Vice Pnesident fon 24 you go about doing that? 25 MS. WILLIAvIS: Yes, sin. So I the call. you How did prepane a bniefing memo, pnoviding UNCLASSIFIED 18 UNCLASSIFIED talking points fon the Vice Pnesident 1 draft talking points z along with backgnound infonmation. 3 + 5 of the Pnesident's call tnanscnipt fnom 2 days pnion, a set of talking 6 7 g the Vice Pnesident to communicate duning the call. 9 with pnesident Zelensky and his 10 11 on suggested point cands, and then THE how pnovided him with a caII did a pnebnief in penson just befone the call. CHAIRMAN: And what genenally wene the points MS. WILLIA\4S: victory we I also that you wanted Finst and fonemost, congnatulations on his to establish a good wonking nelationship and how eagen he was new administnation, his new cabinet; the Vice Pnesident looked forwand to seeing Pnesident Zelensky rea11y implement the agenda on which he had nan, had nun, nelated to t2 anticonnuption nefonms; talking about nefonming the nule of law; 13 refonming the judiciary; taking steps to remove permanent immunity fnom t4 members of Panliament, fon example, which had neally 1ed to a lot of 15 cornuption in Ukraine oven a long peniod of time; looking at ways to 1.6 neform the defense industny in onden to neally stneamline and neduce 17 18 waste, and so that we could nea11y incnease and enhance oun secunity 19 20 2t 22 against Russian aggnession; and, you know, neally supporting his 23 24 call in the Vice Pnesident's binden? MS. WILLIAI4S: I thought it would be usefuL fon the Vice Pnesident to be awane of what the Pnesident had conveyed to Zelensky two days 25 nelationship; encounaging President Zelensky to continue to push back effonts to do so since he had spoken a lot about that duning his campaign. Along those lines. THE CHAIRMAN: And what was the punpose of including the call record fnom the President's UNCLASSIF]ED 19 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 pnion. THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Nob]e. BY MR. NOBLE: 3 4 5 6 a What nole does Genenal Kellogg these types A play in helping pnepane fon of calls? Genenal Kellogg was present fon the call as well as the 7 pnebrief with the Vice Pnesident just befone the catl as weII, and 8 neviews the 9 the Vice Pnesident. 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 talking points and bniefing memos that he ane put fonwand to a That you pnepane? A That I pnepane. a It goes to Genenal Kellogg? A That's night. a How frequently does General Kellogg speak with the Vice President ? A Fainly fnequently. I'm often not pnesent for those engagements, so I couldn't teII you veny specifically, but I would say at least on a daily basis, when the Vice Pnesident is not tnaveling. a And do you know does Genenal Kellogg have dinect conversations with the Pnesident? 22 A I believe he does, but, again, I'm not pnesent fon those, so I couLdn't teII you how fnequently on on what kind of topics they 23 discuss. 2L 24 25 a How do And why do you say that they do have dinect you know that? UNCLASSIFIED communications? 20 UNCLASSIFTED 7 A Genenal Kellogg often will panticipate in meetings with the 2 Pnesident oven in the Oval Office, whethen those ane mone fonmal foneign 3 policy 4 5 6 7 engagements on intennal staff meetings, including the bniefings. Again, I've neven been pnesent fon those, so I can't rea1Iy speak to what they discuss. Pnesident's intelligence a Does Genenal Kellogg ever telI you about what happens in those meetings? 8 A 9 might nelate 10 a Not genenally, unless thene's some specific to Now, 11 shortly befone t2 necall that? an upcoming engagement fon the Vice Pnesident. the President and the Vice Pnesident's call took place Ambassador Yovanovitch was necalled fnom L4 A That's night. a Is that night? 15 Did you have any sense about what was about 13 15 t7 detail that Yovanovitch when those calls wene A I can't necall pnecisely taking when to happen Kyiv. Do you to Ambassadon place? I finst saw some of the media 18 neponting, the open sounce reponting about concerns about Ambassadon 19 Yovanovitch's ongoing position in Uknaine, and how that ovenlaps with 20 the pnecise timing of those two calls, but I do necaII seeing within 2L Apni1, the ApniI timeframe, the media neponting about 22 Yovanovitch. 23 24 25 a And do you you wene seeing Ambassador necall the substance of the media neponting that at that time? A I necall thene being stonies about -UNCLASSlFIED about centain 2L UNCLASSIFIED 1 individuals expnessing concenns, including Mn. Giuliani, 2 Ambassadon Yovanovitch and hen 3 but, again, it 4 a was Do you 5 Yovanovitch 6 Giuliani. loyalty to the Tnump about administnation, all just open sounce neponting. necall else was speaking about who Ambassadon in the pness? You mentioned othen pensons besides Rudy 10 A I necall -- and I couldn't give you the pnecise date -- that I believe the Pnesident's son, Don ln., at one point netweeted a story about Ambassadon Yovanovitch, but I couldn't teLl you the timeline. a Did you have the opportunity to wonk with Ambassadon 11 Yovanovitch on Uknaine befone she was necalled? 7 8 9 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 A Not in, I believe, a couple of intenagency policy committee meetings, in which I also panticipated, and so she was on scneen via video teleconfenence. And so I listened to hen updates fnom post, but I had never met, and stilI have never met hen in penson. a Wene dinectly. She panticipated you familian with hen wonk anticornuption efforts? A Only vaguely. Befone coming 20 Pnesident's office, again, 2t focused on those 22 as closely. 23 24 25 in Uknaine, particulanly on issues. I was So in to this position in the Vice oun embassy in London and very much I wasn't tracking the Ukraine issue quite a What date did you join OVP? A Apnil lst. a Okay. In Apni1, was thene any concenn within the Office of UNCLASSIFIED 22 UNCLASSIFIED 1 the Vice Pnesident on the White 2 Yovanovitch A a 3 4 5 House mone genenally about Ambassadon that you wene awane of? Not that I was aware of. Did you even speak with the Vice Pnesident about Ambassadon Yovanovitch befone she was necalled? A 6 No, I neven had a convensation with the Vice Pnesident about 8 I believe I lncluded a wnitten update just neporting on when her final date at post was and some of the pness 9 neponting about hen situation 7 10 Ambassadon Pnesident, but a 11 L2 Yovanovitch. A neven had an in-penson convensation. Around that time as weII, that 15 of our negulan staff t7 news was coming a A out, I raised meetings did he -- And what We didn't 20 media neponting him had seen when one was mone fon his summany of I that. of some was And of the awaneness. Did you have any discussions with anyone else in the Office on the White House about these media reports about of the Vice Pnesident 23 Ambassador Yovanovitch, 25 It an update, and he acknowledged with, you know, a wnitten 22 24 late Apnil Genenal Ke1logg. convensation. laten, I pnovided was of the media neporting in have a fulsome 19 a some I think it did he respond? just providing him with I to and how 1.8 2t Kellogg, did you even discuss the Genenal him? 1.4 16 with What about situation with 13 I in a negulan nightly update to the Vice that you can necall? A Around that time -- and, again, I couldn't give you a pnecise date -- I necall speaking with Fiona Hill, Dn. HiII, and Lieutenant UNCLASSIFIED 23 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Colonel Vindman about the situation befone 2 Ambassadon Yovanovitch was going 3 to Washington fon consultations. At that time, 4 meant she was going So 5 I basically, 7 going we wene both be was clean whethen recalled. She had been it wasn 't necalled clean if that be leaving hen post. with Dn. HiII about the situation, had a convensation 6 8 to to it just expressing that it to happen, and that it seemed like it going to be nemoved fnom the position. was was unclean what was a shame that she 10 that neally more hen opinion. But from 11 Ambassadon Yovanovitch, so 72 what 13 Yovanovitch had senved a veny dedicated and upstanding careen, L4 including in her time in 15 she would need I was had known fnom State Depantment colleagues, Ambassadon a Wene to Kyiv. So we wene not awane of any neason that be necalled fon cause. you generally familiar with 77 having been in the Foneign Senvice fon so 18 on hen reputation? 19 Ambassadon Yovanovitch, long? Had you heand of hen A I had heard hen name but, to be honest, I had been mone focused 20 on Middle Eastenn policy pnion to going to London. 2L is she's of 22 hadn't 23 was a And why do you say it was a shame? A In -- I think Dn. Hill had wonked more cLosely with 9 L6 but had mone a focus in So my undenstanding Eunasia and Russia, so oun paths nea1ly cnossed. a Okay. Anound that time, had you even heand of these of Rudy Giuliani, 24 associates 25 that name befone? Mn. Pannas, Lev Pannas? Had you heand UNCLASSIFIED 24 UNCLASSIFIED A I 1 had not, no. What about Igon Fnuman? 3 a A 4 a Wene 2 5 you familian with any of thein effonts to tny to get Ambassador Yovanovitch nemoved? A No. I'd 6 7 No. was seen the bnoaden media neporting, but I hadn't -- I not familian with those two individuals. a 8 Wene you familian, on did you have any awareness of this 10 of matenial that was put togethen about it's denogatony matenial of Ambassadon Yovanovitch that was sent to the State 11 Depantment 9 dossien A I only became awane of that L2 13 mone necently thnough othen testimony and othen discussions. a At the time you - A No. a -- had no awaneness that that !4 15 16 77 ? had been compiled and sent to the State Depantment? 18 A No. 19 a Did you - - you said that you infonmed Vice Pnesident Pence the 20 and Genenal Kellogg about 2L that night, on wene they alneady A Yes. I 22 nemoval of Ambassador Yovanovitch, aware? had pnovided a wnitten update 23 in oun negulan daily repont, just stating that 24 last 25 provided some commentany about day at post, if I'm connect, is Ambassadon Yovanovitch's be May 6th and that - - and of the media neponts sunnounding was going some to the Vice Pnesident UNCLASSIFIED to 25 UNCLASS]FIED 1 hen nemoval. 2 I was not aware of any othen discussions on infonmation outside I did not pnovide those. And, again, I it to Genenal Kellogg in a staff meeting. 3 of those channels, 4 mentioned a 5 Do and so, you know whethen Vice President Pence on General Kellogg 6 wene othenwise aware 7 on of the situation involving that the Pnesident Ambassador Yovanovitch had concenns about hen? A I don't know. I'm not awane. a When did you finst become awane of Rudy Giuliani's activities 8 9 10 had in Uknaine? A TT neponting, I want to say probably eanly in Thnough media had stanted my position. 72 Apnil, not long after I 13 intenviews that he had given neganding his concerns about connuption t4 and about things going on 15 open sounce neponting. a 16 17 that a 22 that was of some all just fnom of his tweets that he was sending out anound him on Twitten, so I hadn't but I had seen them neponted in the 20 2L in Uknaine, but, again, it was awane time? A I don't folLow 18 19 Wene you awane I And seen them myself, media. did you -- did thene come a time when you became awane initiate centain investigations? A I think the finst media nepont I necall that was specific he was advocating fon Uknaine to 23 to particulan investigations 24 outlet towands the 25 in a wnitten end was an intenview he did with a Uknainian of May. I want to say May 28th. summany fnom And I saw that oun Embassy colleagues who do an English UNCLASSIFIED 26 UNCLASSIFIED 3 of Uknainian news on a daily basis. And I noted that in that intenview that Mn. Giuliani had given, he neferenced panticular investigations that he would like to see the 4 Uknainians undentake. L 2 language tnanslation a And which investigations wene those? A I believe they related to the 2016 election, and what nole, 5 6 any, Ukraine may have played in that, as well as looking into the 7 if 8 situation with 9 10 11 L2 a that Giuliani was pnessing fon those investigations? seeing those panticulan investigations mentioned by Mn. Giuliani in the press. L4 that -- 15 Ukraine 18 said that anticle you saw in late May. Pnion to that, A That's the finst time I necall a 77 And you wene you awane 13 16 fonmen Vice President Biden's son and Burisma. Do you whene necall a New Yonk Times anticle in eanly May Giuliani announced that he was going to be tnaveling to to tny to meet with Pnesident Zelensky about these mattens? A I do. I necall that anticle. I just don't nememben if those panticulan investigations wene mentioned in that article, but yes. a Okay. It seems like you followed the news about Uknaine 19 nelatively closely aften you stanted in the Office of the Vice 20 President. Is that fain to 27 22 23 24 25 saY? A I do. a Did you even discuss Rudy Giuliani's activities in Uknaine with Genenal Kellogg? A Not -- not specifically. I of Mn. Giuliani's statements about what had flagged he wanted UNCLASSIFIED to the press see covenage the Uknainians 27 UNCLASSIFIED in the context of Ambassadon Yovanovitch's nemoval, but othen than t do 2 that had no specific discussions with 3 Giuliani. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 l4 15 16 L7 a A a Pnesident What about with the Vice Genenal Kellogg about Mn. Pnesident? No. Did you flag those -- the news anticles fon the Vice ? A I had flagged the May 28th Uknainian media intenview in a daily update -- Uknainian for the Vice President, but had had no pensonal convensations with him about a Okay. intenview Did you become aware of it. Giuliani's intenest in having Ukraine investigate Bunisma Holdings? A I believe I became aware of it thnough that May 28th intenview. Again, I can't necall if it was also mentioned in the New Yonk Times intenview -- on anticle from sevenal weeks pnion. a connected And fnom that anticle, did you become awane that to Hunten Biden at that Bunisma was time? 20 A I believe so, but the neason I hesitate is I sti1I -- the name Bunisma hadn't reaIly nesonated with me at that time. I was more -- I centainly necognized that he was interested in looking into 2L the nole that 22 of a company. 18 19 23 24 25 fonmen Vice Pnesident Biden's son had played on the boand a Okay. And sometime laten, you made the connection that that company was Bunisma? A That's night. UNCLASSIFIED 28 UNCLASSIFIED 7 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 72 13 Did you know, you know, at whose dinection Giuliani a working on these mattens in Uknaine? A I did not. a Do you know the nelationship between the Pnesident Giuliani and ? I can see in the pness. I've never intenacted with Mn. Giuliani on seen him in penson with the Pnesident. A Only from what A A And what was Acconding to that relationshiP? pness neponting, I undenstood Mn. Giuliani to be wonking as the President's pensonal attonney. Did you ever have any discussions with any of youn colleagues a at the NSC A about Giuliani's Not specifically activities in that I can Uknaine? necall. I think my colleagues 74 at the NSC wene also tnacking the pness neponting about 15 intenest in pushing the Uknainians to undentake certain 16 investigations, but we never had 18 that issue specifically. a You neven had -- 19 was up L7 was to in Uknaine Mn. Giuliani's neally substantive convensations you discussed concerns about what with Lieutenant Colonel on Giuliani Vindman? 2L A I think if -- you know, if we'ne still in the context of April-May, again, I spoke with Dn. Hill and Lieutenant Colonel Vindman 22 anound 23 specific information, but it 24 statements about concenns about hen penfonmance and political leaning. 20 25 the time of So, Ambassadon in that context, Yovanovitch's nemoval, and we had seemed nelated to we discussed it. UNCLASSIFIED some of But, again, Mn. no Giuliani's I don't necaII 29 UNCLASSIFIED 1 any neally substantive discussions a 2 Did it naise any kind of specifically about Mn. Giuliani. ned flags fon you that you had this 3 pnivate citizen out in Uknaine, a countny that you coven, pnessing these 4 investigations, pnessing fon the removal of 5 kind of just leanning about an Ambassadon, and you're it in pness neponts? 8 A It wasn't clean at the time what exactly his nole was and how official it might be. Again, not being pnivy to the nelationship between Mn. Giuliani and the Pnesident, it neally wasn't clean at that 9 time, on neally thnoughout the counse of the 6 7 in what kind of capacity, summen, what and how that might ovenlap 10 he was playing and 11 with oun official U.S.-Uknaine foreign policy. a A a L2 13 L4 15 0n not? 0n not. L7 18 19 Not a A a What about General Kellogg? of Not infonmation 25 to my knowledge. of unofficial or back channel lines of that wene flowing to the Pnesident on Uknaine? any othen kind 2L 24 to my knowledge. Aside fnom what Rudy Giuliani was up to in Uknaine, wene you awane 23 Pence even had calIs on othen communications with Giuliani? A 20 22 -- do you know whethen Vice Pnesident Did you any meetings on phone 16 kind of nole A No, no. And, again, fon Mn. Giuliani was only thnough pness neponting. a Ane you Tnump and Pnime familiar with the May 13th meeting Ministen Onban of Hungany? UNCLASSIFIED between Pnesident 30 UNCLASSIFIED 2 A Yes, I am. I believe the Vice Pnesident also panticipated in that meeting, so I prepared the Vice Pnesident fon that meeting as 3 welI. T 5 duning that A I 6 7 Do you know whethen thene was any discussion about Uknaine a 4 NSC meeting? colleagues aftenwands, but You wene 9 a A 10 a Okay. 8 LL not in the I was Do you A I recall not in the meeting. meeting? necall what the readout said about the to NSC Uknaine? colleagues neponting that Mn. Onban 13 expressed some concenns about Ukraine, but, to be honest, 74 nememben a 15 fnom No. convensation nelating 72 that thene was from neceiving a neadout undenstood specifics of his had I don't nea11y concenns. Did you on Genenal Kellogg even panticipate in any calls on 16 meetings between Pnesident Tnump and Pnesident Putin whene the matten L7 of Uknaine came up? A No. 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 And I'm just thinking. I necalI seeing a neadout of I believe also in late May, in which Ukraine had come up, but Genenal Kellogg and I wene not on the call or pnesent fon the call. a You saw a readout or a memcon of the call? one of the President's calls with Pnesident Putin A That's night. a Do you necaIl what it said about Uknaine? A I neally don't. I'm sorny. I know that it UNCLASSIFIED came up in the 31 UNCLASSIFIED 2 I think of wanting to see a nesolution to the ongoing conflict with Uknaine, but I don't necall the specifics of that pant of the 3 convensation. 4 a 1 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 context You don't neca1I anything about what Pnesident Putin may have said to Pnesident Tnump about Uknaine? A I don't. a Anything about security assistance, to Uknaine? A In convensation with Pnesident U.S. secunity assistance a A Putin? Yes. No. 74 a Ane you familian with an NSC staffen named Kash Patel? A No. I've seen his name come up mone necently in pness neponting nelated to this inquiny, and I've seen -- I've been on email 15 chains with L2 13 16 him. He wonks in a different dinectonate than the Eunopean Buneau with whom I wonk most closely. So I knew his name, but I didn't L7 know him on what 18 a Do 19 at the NSC? 20 A I 2L 22 23 24 25 his role was. you know whethen he had any involvement was not awane that he had any. I've in Uknaine mattens seen pness neponting since that time that indicate that he may have, but a A a You have no pensonal knowledge of that? No. Ane you familian of in his cunnent nole as the whethen Mn. Patel even tnaveled to Europe countentennonism Senion Dinecton at the UNCLASSIFIED NSC? 32 UNCLASSlFIED L 2 3 A I'm not aware. a So I'd Iike to tunn to the inauguration of Pnesident in -- I believe that was on May 2?th. 4 A 5 THE CHAIRMAN: 6 Zelensky Uh-huh. Is thene any mone light you can shed on the concerns that Onban expnessed on Ukraine? MS. 7 WILLIAvIS: Mn. Chainman, I'm tnying to neca11, but I honestly 8 don't neally necall a lot of the detail of what exactly they discussed. 9 I undenstand I necall that Mn. Onban had some concenns about 10 Uknaine. There's an ongoing issue that 11 ongoing T2 nelated to nights of Hunganians L3 Hunganian language. NATO Hungany has been blocking coopenation with Uknaine oven a veny specific issue living in Uknaine to speak and be taught 16 fainly niche issue, but it's something that's important to Pnesident Onban. So I believe that was pant of the discussion. But othen than that, since I wasn't in the noom, I don't know if thene wene L7 mone L4 15 So a THE CHAIRMAN: And 18 19 22 do you have any sense why Onban would bning in a convensation with the U.S. Pnesident? MS. WILLIAMS: I can't speak to what his motivations might have up Uknaine 20 27 -- you know, funthen discussion about Uknaine. been. THE CHAIRMAN: As a genenal matten, does Mn. Onban take a veny 23 pno-Russia penspective on issues 24 Russia 25 of conflict between the U.S. and ? MS. WILLIAMS: I believe it's fain to UNCLASSIF]ED say in oun experience that 33 UNCLASSIFTED 1 Pnesident Onban does tend 2 views on centain issues. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: And 4 MS. WILLIAVIS: 5 THE to -- yes, does tend to have mone pno-Russia that would include Uknaine? I believe that' s f ain to say. CHAIRMAN: And do you know whethen thene were any commitments 6 made by the President to Mn. Onban duning that convensation vis-a-vis 7 Ukraine ? 8 9 of any. THE CHAIRMAN: And duning the call between Pnesident Putin MS. WILLIAVIS: I'm not awane and 10 Pnesident Tnump, wene thene any asks by Pnesident Putin vis-a-vis 11 Uknaine ? L2 MS. WILLIAVIS: I don't necall any. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: 0n any commitments made by the Pnesident? t4 MS. WILLIAVIS: Not 15 THE CHAIRMAN: MT. Nob]e. my necollection. BY MR. NOBLE: 16 !7 to a Was thene any discussion in the White 18 of the Vice President about Pnime Ministen 19 Uknaine 20 House on the Office Onban's concenns about ? A Again, to the best of my necollection, in pneparation fon 2t that meeting, we wene tnacking most closely Hungary's 22 the rights, as they would say, the nights of the Hunganian population 23 living in Uknaine. 24 to encounage Hungany to stop blocking funther 25 Uknaine. And the U.S. position UNCLASSIFIED concenns about is -- has always been to tny NATO coopenation with 34 UNCLASSIFIED And 1. so, fon example, if I 2 to that issue 3 in the meeting, so I don't a 4 5 Do had pnepaned the Vice Pnesident Uknaine came up to speak in the meeting. But, again, I wasn't know exactly what was discussed. you know whethen the Vice Pnesident followed those talking points 10 A I don't know. a -- you pnovided fon him? A I don't know if the issue was naised. a Befone we go to the inauguration, I want to go back to Giuliani bniefly. Did you even discuss I asked you about your 11 colleagues at NSC, but how about the State Department? Did you even t2 discuss with Mn. Kent or Mn. Reeker about Giuliani and what he was 13 to in 6 7 8 9 Uknaine? 15 A a 16 Aside fnom Pnesident Putin, Pnime Ministen Onban, ane you 1.4 up No. No, okay. L7 of 18 relating to Uknaine, aside fnom Pnesident any othen convensations Pnesident Tnump had awane with any foneign leaden Zelensky? 23 A In that particulan timefname? a Yeah. On even, since then, since you joined OVP. A I mean, I would say that Uknaine is a shaned pnionity countny fon a numben of oun Westenn European allies. And so, I can't necaIl specifically, but I believe that the Pnesident has spoken with 24 Pnesident Macnon and the Pnime Ministens 25 Thenesa May, mone necently Bonis lohnson, and othens about, fon 19 20 21 22 UNCLASSIF]ED of the U.K., at the time 35 UNCLASSIFIED 1 exampLe, Eunopean effonts to work towands, you know, implementation 3 of the Nonmandy pnocess in onden to find nesolution to the ongoing conflict in Uknaine. So I believe it's come up in that context with 4 othen leadens, but 2 5 a Okay. So Tnump, 7 the invitation to 9 you specific dates you said, during the Apnil 21st on conversations. call with President Apnil 23nd with Vice Pnesident Pence, Pnesident Zelensky naised 6 8 I couldn't tell come to his inaugunation. Is that night? A That's night. a Can you descnibe the -- kind of the followup fnom those phone specifically, like 10 ca11s, leading up to the inaugunation on May z?th, 11 whethen 12 whether Vice Pnesident Pence would attend, on who would nepnesent the 13 United States at the inaugunation? -- discussions about whethen the Pnesident would attend, 15 A Sune. So shontly aften the President's Apnil 21st convensation, I learned thnough email fnom oun chief of staff that the 16 Pnesident had asked the Vice Pnesident 77 Again, at that time the date of the inaugunation had not yet been set. L4 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 to attend the inauguration. a Can I pause you fon a second? A 0f counse. a You mentioned chief of staff. Do you mean Mick Mulvaney on the Vice Pnesident's chief of staff? A The Vice Pnesident's chief of staff. a And who is that? A Manc Shont. a I'm sonny, I intennupted. I just wanted to get a name on UNCLASSIFIED 36 UNCLASSIFIED 1 the necond. A 4 that's okay. That's fine completely. So I leanned fnom our chief of staff, Manc Shont, that we should start planning fon the Vice President to possibly panticipate 5 if -- again, if the dates wonked out. 2 3 No, 7 of the scheduling constraints that we wene looking at was, oun undenstanding at the time, was that the Ukrainians were looking 8 to 9 the best infonmation that oun Embassy colleagues in Kyiv had at the 6 10 One have the inaugunation towands the end of May, maybe early June was time. tt President of May and Tnump was going to be tnaveling ovenseas, both at the eanly in June, so thene was a veny nannow window in which 72 end 13 the Vice Pnesident would be able to tnavel ovenseas, in onden to avoid L4 a double absence. 15 15 77 18 19 20 27 So, fnom a scheduling perspective, we wene planning, but would depend on when the Uknainians decided date. So we stanted that kind of hypothetical tenms, I suppose. a down planning pnocess, And do you know who necommended attend the inaugunation, whose idea A to nail My undenstanding fnom oun it it nealIy the specific just in that Vice Pnesident Pence was? chief of staff, Manc Shont, was to attend shortly aften 22 that the Pnesident 23 the Pnesident's phone call with Pnesident Zelensky on Apnil 2Lst. 24 25 a And was asked the Vice Pnesident the Vice President amenable to enthusiastic about going to show suppont that? Was he for Zelensky, or what was his UNCLASSIFIED 37 UNCLASSIFIED 1 attitude ? A I 2 wasn't pnesent when he was asked specifically, so I can't 4 to that. But I can say that in the phone call that Vice President had 2 days later, obviously, the issue of the 5 inaugunation came up as weII, and the Vice Pnesident accepted that 6 invitation from Pnesident Zelensky, and looked 7 to attend, again, if the dates worked out. 3 nea11y speak a 8 9 Can you A My undenstanding was on May 13th, I L2 my colleagues saying 13 the inauguration. 16 t7 18 neceived a phone call fnom oun chief at some time in the monning, of staff's office he neceived funthen dinection fnom somebody at the White A My undenstanding fnom my 20 Pnesident not a to -- was colleague -- House? and, again, that the Pnesident f wasn't asked the Vice attend. Do you know did that phone call from Mn. Shont's office 22 befone on aften the meeting with Pnime Ministen Onban that 23 was May 25 of a And who was that colleaguei A I believe it was the chief of staff's assistant. a And why wasn't Vice Pnesident Pence going to attend? Had thene fon the conversation 24 fnom one that the Vice Pnesident would not be attending 19 2L able explain why Vice Pnesident Pence did not attend, 11 15 to being ended up not attending? 10 t4 fonward the day? come That 13th, night, you said? A It was. I don't neca1l pnecisely what time the Onban meeting took pIace. I necall that I spoke to my colleague in the chief of UNCLASSIFTED 38 UNCLASSIFIED 3 staff's office somewhene aften 11 a.m., anound that timefname, maybe 11:15, !!:3Q. But I don't necall what time the Onban meeting was. a Aften it was decided that Vice Pnesident Pence was not going 4 to attend the inaugunation, 5 in helping 1 2 6 7 8 9 10 pnep wene you involved any funthen at that point the delegation that ended up going? I learned that the Vice Pnesident would not be attending, I ca11ed my NSC colleagues. I called Lieutenant Colonel Vindman to let him know that the Vice Pnesident was not able to attend, since it was neal1y the National Secunity Council's nesponsibility to then fonm a U.S. delegation. So I wanted them to know that. A And LT So when then since we had alneady stanted making initial steps towands L2 the Vice Pnesident's tnavel to Uknaine fon that possible event, I 13 alented State Depantment and L4 Pnesident would not be attending, and then neferned them 15 fon funthen discussion about a U.S. delegation. THE CHAIRMAN: 16 Embassy if I 18 Ieanned fnom Manc Short 19 to attend the inauguration? can go thnough the dates with MS. WILLIAV1S: APNiI 21St. 2t THE CHAIRMAN: And that the Pnesident MS. WILLIAVIS: MAy 13th. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: So the dinective fnom What date was it that you what date did you learn fnom the assistant to 23 25 you. see that the Pnesident wanted the Vice Pnesident 20 Mn. Shont to the NSC I'm going to just foIlow up. I just want to t7 22 Kyiv colleagues that the Vice at now wanted him some point the Pnesident between not to attend? April 21st and May L3th, changed fnom wanting him UNCLASSIFIED to attend 39 UNCLASSIFIED 1 to not wanting him to attend. Is that M5. WILLIAMS: Those ane the dates on which 2 3 can't neally 4 it 5 6 7 8 9 10 LL night? I to the -- to what the dinective speak was infonmed. may have been, but would appear so. THE CHAIRMAN: Wene you even change given a neason fon the Pnesident's of mind on this? MS. WILLIAVIS: NO. until the dinective was given fon the Vice President not to attend, wene pnepanations being made for the Vice THE CHAIRMAN: And to President up attend? MS. WILLIAVIS: They wene. We wene making pnepanations. But, 72 again, since the date hadn't actually been selected, it was veny 13 pneliminany. L4 We hadn't gotten veny far. THE CHAIRMAN: that it 15 assuming 76 necommendation But it was the Vice Pnesident's intention, wonked with his calendan, to follow the President's that he attend? That's right. t7 MS. WILLIAvIS: 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Noble. BY MR. NOBLE: 19 20 2L a At that point, had you had any intenactions with the to the Ambassadon EU, Gondon Sondland? 22 A I don't believe I 23 a 24 25 I delegation had And wene you awane of at that point, how he came to no. be added to the ? A I saw his name on the final }ist of the delegation UNCLASSIFIED members, 40 UNCLASSIFlED 1 but since at that point, the Vice Pnesident wasn't involved, 2 pensonally involved 3 delegation. 4 5 6 a in the discussions of who would be I wasn't part of that Aften the tnip, did you get a neadout of the vanious meetings that occunned in Kyiv fnom, Iike, A I did. Alexanden Vindman on anyone else? While the delegation was on the gnound fon the May 7 20th inaugunation, Alex Vindman had sent some email updates reganding 8 thein meetings, 9 the delegation, which ended up being led by Secnetany Penny, had and it sounded like they had been veny successful, that I been undenstood fnom that 10 veny impnessed with Pnesident Zelensky. And 11 communication L2 the Pnesident to convey what they had heand fnom the Uknainians. 13 t4 15 15 a that the delegation Did Alex Vindman Pnesident Zelensky while he was on the ground in he had with Kyiv? A I'm sonny, convensations with whom? a Sonny. Yeah, I ' 1t say it again. Did Alexanden Vindman tell that you about any convensations 18 the inauguration activities in 20 to come back and meet with te1I you about any convensations 17 19 was eagen he had with Pnesident Zelensky duning Kyiv? A lust the two of them? a The two of them, on in fnont of othen people, the meetings 2L with Zelensky. 22 A The neadout I neceived fnom Lieutenant Colonel Vindman was 23 describing the delegation's meeting with Pnesident Zelensky. So it 24 was neaIly descnibing 25 a the convensation that the whole gnoup had had. Did he say anything about the issue UNCLASSIFIED of advising Pnesident 4t UNCLASSIFfED L to stay out of U.S. domestic politics A Whether that issue had come up? Zelensky 2 a Whether that had come up. A I don't recall that coming up in the context 3 4 5 in Uknaine fon the inaugunation. But, to 6 pnecisely. a 7 8 So you be honest, of those meetings I just don't necall got a neadout fnom Lieutenant Colonel Vindman. How of the delegation? A Not specifically. I'm tnying to think if, penhaps, Geonge about anybody e1se, any othen 9 10 come up? membens Kent had sent a separate email, but Just going back to the Vice Pnesident's potential tnip thene, a 11 I don't believe so. t2 ane you aware of 13 conflicts that would have pnevented him fnom attending the inaugunation L4 on May 20th? A 15 whethen Vice Pnesident Pence had any scheduling We1I, again, when the dinective -- when the discussion took place, the date for the actual inaugunation had not yet 16 May 13th L7 been 18 thene was going 19 Iater, I just don't necall what was on the Vice Pnesident's 20 fon May 20th in the end, since 2L to 22 23 24 25 on set. So it was to not possible fon us to say at that time whether be a scheduling conflict. Once we had alneady known lt that was set 3 days schedule he wasn't going be attending. -- I'm going to ask you some questions about Ambassadon Sondland. Did you come to be awane that he was involved in Uknaine mattens at some point? A f recall -- I imagine -- I think my first awaneness of a Okay. Now, did you come to be awane UNCLASSIFIED 42 UNCLASSIFIED L Ambassadon Sondland's involvement would have been when 2 was saw that he panticipating in the delegation to attend the lnaugunation. a A a 3 4 5 6 I Had you even met on spoke with him before that? No. And did you have an undenstanding of as the Ambassadon to the why Ambassadon Sondland, EU, was now involved in Uknaine? A I didn't know specificallY, no. a Did you even come to learn whY? A No. 7 8 9 72 a Did that stnike you as odd, on -A I guess I assumed just because the EU is also veny involved in Uknaine, and has made it a foreign policy pnionity for the Eunopean 13 Union 10 11 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 27 22 23 24 25 to also fosten a good relationship with Ukraine, and wene also veny eagen to see the new Pnesident Zelensky administnation come in, I assumed it was nelated to that, but I didn't know specifically. a Pnesident A a of whethen he had been tasked by the to play some nole in Uknaine? You wenen't awane No. Did you ever discuss Ambassadon Sondland's noLe in Uknaine with Genenal Kellogg? A a A a A No. 0n with the Vice Pnesident? No. How about youn colleagues Not in tenms at NSC? of his role and why he was involved. UNCLASSIFIED Mone 43 UNCLASSIFIED to, you know, again, that he was going to be pant of 1 nelated 2 delegation, and then also, a part of the debniefing with the Pnesident 3 aften the netunn of the delegation aften the inaugunation, but 4 speciflc conversations with them about 5 6 a Who did you discuss no Ambassadon Sondland's nole. Ambassadon SondLand's panticipation in the delegation and the debnief with the Pnesident at A It the NSC? 11 in negular convensation with Lieutenant Colonel Vindman about the -- the effont to put togethen the final delegation Iist, just so I could keep my office informed of that pnocess. And then I flagged fon Alex Vindman, upon the group's retunn, that if the Vice President were available, he would pnobably want to be pant of 72 that debnief since he hadn't 13 Pnesident Zelensky. t4 Vice Pnesident was actually 7 8 9 10 was been present fon the meetings with I -- if I recall cornectly, I don't believe the in that meeting in the end. 22 a And that's the debnief that occunned on May 23rd? A That's night. a Wene you involved in the debnief at all? A No. a You wene genenally awane that it was happening? A I was awane that it was happening, yeah. A I mean, as somebody who follows Uknaine fon the Vice Pnesident, I mean, wene you -- did you get a neadout fnom the l(ay 23rd 23 meeting what happened 15 16 L7 18 19 20 27 24 25 A in the Ova1 Office? Not a detailed neadout. Again, I was in regulan contact with Lleutenant Colonel Vlndman about, you know, klnd of next steps on UNCLASSIFIED oun 44 UNCLASS]FIED policy. And I understood L Uknaine 2 and 3 view of Pnesident Zelensky, but 4 that meeting 5 a 6 that the delegation had come back fnom Ukraine with a veny positive I didn't get a detailed Wene not 100 pencent be honest. I don't think 11 a No convensations, no. l4 a you awane Wene A No. I L7 a how Pnesident Tnump reacted to the A was neven got a detailed readout of the meeting. Did you even have any communications with Ambassadon Volken relating to 19 23 of delegation's recommendations upon thein retunn? 16 22 in the Oval Office on May 23nd? A No. 21. did, but I'm Did you speak with anybody else about what happened 13 20 he sune. 10 18 how you awane of whethen Lieutenant Colonel Vindman a Do you know why he did not participate? A I don't. 15 of had gone. A I don't know, to 9 L2 neadout panticipated in the debnief in the 0va1 Office on not? 7 8 that that meeting had taken place Uknaine? Not me personally. I was on some email chains in which a pant of those convensations as weI1, but a Volken he no. Did you even panticipate in any meetings with Ambassadon ? A I did. I don't recall the precise date, but I want to say eanly May, Ambassador Volken had a negulan senies of video 24 maybe 25 confenences with his Fnench and Genman, maybe UNCLASSIF]ED British, but I think 45 UNCLASSIFIED 1 mostly French and Genman countenpants 2 that 3 4 wene all to -- it pushing towands pnogness And so they were was kind of a small gnoup in the Nonmandy pnocess. just kind of companing notes on what each of those countnies had taken away fnom initial engagements with the Zelensky 6 I joined one of those video conferences that Ambassador Volken chained at some point in May. I can't necal1 7 the date. 5 8 9 10 11 administnation. a reca11 But neven had any nelating to A a I So direct convensations with him about mattens Uknaine? No. Did eithen Ambassador Vo1ken on Ambassadon Sondland even t2 contact the Office of the Vice Pnesident on have any communications 13 with the Vice Pnesident, to youn knowledge? What about 16 A a A t7 a Wene L4 15 18 19 20 27 22 23 24 25 Not Not to to my knowledge. with Genenal Kel}ogg, eithen of the my knowledge. you at all awane of Ambassadon Sondland's communications with Rudy A a A a Ambassadons? Volker and Ambassadon Giuliani -- No. beginning No, I was in on anound JuIy of not 2Ot9? aware. So you had no idea that they wene talking to Rudy Giuliani about Uknaine mattens? A a No. Did you even have any intenactions with Ambassadon Bolton UNCLASSIFIED 46 UNCLASSfFIED 7 on Dn. Kuppenman? 5 A About Uknaine? a Relating to Uknaine on -- on mone genenally, what was your kind of -- you intenacted with Alexanden Vindman and you said Mn. Monnison and Dn. Hill sometimes. Did you even have any 6 intenactions with kind of thein supenions at the 2 3 4 A 7 Not one-on-one that either interactions. I panticipated in 8 meetings 9 no personal convensations with 10 when Ambassadon 11 Pnesident Ambassadon Taylon nelating 18 eIse, in communication with 19 to Kyiv in A a 20 2L I had was pnobably in a pnebnief with the Vice -- you wene at least on some emails with to Ukraine. Is that night? I And I sent back to -- no. Wene you awane at all that he was going to be appointed No, not prion A I but Ambassadon Taylon befone he was lune? d'affaines fon 23 25 closest A That's right. a Was anybody in the Office of the Vice Pnesident, YoU on anyone L7 24 The chained, but on Septemben Lst Now, you said you had 15 22 them. Kuppenman 0kay. L4 15 Bolton on Dn. several in Poland. a Okay. We'11 talk a littte bit about that when we get thene. L2 13 Ambassadon Bolton panticipated in -- NSC? Change Uknaine? had heand his name. I couldn't teII you pnecisely when, that thene was discussion of sending him out thene. had -- I didn't know him personally. I had heand that he was had heand UNCLASSIF]ED 47 UNCLASSIFIED prion -- a previous Ambassadon 1 a 2 foneign senvice officen, so a 3 to Uknaine, and a veny well-nespected -- but I didn't know him personally. Following the delegation to the inaugunation and the meeting of a letten that Pnesident 4 in the 0va1 5 Tnump sent to Pnesident Zelensky, which included an invitation to Office on May 23rd, wene you awane come 8 visit the White House? A Yes, I was awane of the letten. a Was that letten cinculated in advance to the Office of the 9 Vice Pnesident? 6 7 13 A No. My understanding was that NSC colleagues had done an initial dnaft of a letten, of a congnatulations letten. I believe the initial plan was that Secnetany Penny would take the signed letten with himto deliven it in person, but I believe it wasn't signed befone they L4 1eft, 10 11 L2 15 so that hadn't occunned. And I believe thene was discussion in the 0va1 Office meeting 16 the 23nd about the letten, but, again, L7 what they discussed pnecisely. 18 19 20 a Do you know how an I wasn't thene so I don't invitation to the White House got on know added to that letten? A I don't. My understanding aftenwands, that aften it was signed 21 fnom some email cornespondence, was 22 centainly suppontive of extending an invitation to Zelensky in that 23 letten. But, again, I 24 know what 25 a Ambassador Sondland was wasn't privy to the convensation, so I don't the discussion was back and fonth on that issue. Did you even have any discussions with Genenal Kellogg UNCLASSIFIED on 48 UNCLASSIFIED I the Vice Pnesident about whether on not to suppont a visit fon Pnesident 2 Zelensky A I don't believe so, no specific convensations with eithen 3 4 to the White House? about that issue. a 5 Wene you familian with whethen on not they wene suppontive 7 of that idea on not suppontive? A I believe in genenal, they 8 good stnong wonking 9 necollection, I don't necall 6 10 offening a White wene suppontive of fostening a relationship with Pnesident Zelensky, but, to House even having a visit to my specific convensation about President Zelensky. 13 a Did you take any steps to tny to help schedule the meeting? A I was not involved in that pnocess. NSC really leads that pnocess. I was awane that NSC had, you know, thnough the normal t4 administnative pnocesses put fonwand a scheduling pnoposal fon that 15 to go -- to 15 Vice President was not involved v. L2 a L7 18 be considened by the schedulens. But the Office Were you, though, genenally supportive of a meeting between 27 Ambassadon Sondland on Rudy 22 to 25 pnocess. A I was. a Wene you awane of any nole that Ambassadon 20 24 the Pnesident Tnump and Pnesident Zelensky? 19 23 in that of Giuliani wene Volken on playing in whether on not schedule a meeting with Pnesident Tnump and Pnesident Zelensky? A No, I was not. a At the time? A At the time, no. UNCLASSIFIED 49 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 a Did you have any discussions with youn colleagues at the NSC about scheduling the meeting? 4 A I don't necal.l any specific discussions on that issue, othen than I was awane that they centainly were suppontive of the meeting 5 being scheduled as well. 3 6 7 8 9 10 11 72 13 14 15 Within the counse of oun intenagency policy coordination pnocess, oun negulan meetings on Uknaine with interagency colleagues, once the letter -- once the Pnesident's letten had been signed that offened the meeting, it was discussed on a numben of occasions what would be the most oppontune date fon a White House meeting to a take p1ace. My necollection is that agencies wene genenally suppontive of waiting until aften the Uknaine parliamentary elections on JuIy 21st wene oven, just to see how those went and to make sune that it wasn't intenfening at all with that political pnocess. But othen than that, I don't necaLL any specific discussions about scheduling the meeting. UNCLASSIFIED 50 UNCLASSIFIED 1 [10:35 a.m. ] BY MR. NOBLE: 2 a Okay. You mentioned kind of intenagency 3 4 5 A a 7 Wene you awane No. What about a lune 28th conference call involving Volken, Sondland, Taylon, and Secnetany A a 9 10 LT on of a lune 18th meeting and confenence call that was held from Secnetany Penny's office on June 18th? Uknaine. 6 8 coondination that Penny? No. Ane you aware that they spoke with Pnesident Zelensky laten day? A I was not awane of that, no. a Ane you at all familian with Ambassadon 72 13 Ambassadons Volken's and Mr. 74 Kent's tnip to Tononto on July 2nd and 3nd where they met with Pnesident 15 Zelensky? A I 16 am aware that they panticipated in the Tononto - - the 17 Uknaine Refonm Confenence 18 yes. 19 a 20 meetings 2t 22 23 A a A that took place in Toronto on those dates, Did you speak with either of them in advance of those ? Not with those two individuals, no. Did you even get a nead-out No, not precisely. of what happened Thene had been an 24 whethen the Vice Pnesident would 25 he did not because in Tononto? original discussion panticipate in that confenence, but of a scheduling conflict, UNCLASSIFIED so aften that I neally 5L UNCLASSIFIED t wasn't involved in that a 2 Why was pnocess. the Vice Pnesident possibly going to panticipant in 3 the Tononto confenence? Is that something that the Vice Pnesident 4 nonmally would A 5 attendl Is that that type of Not nonmally, but we thought it confenence? might be a good oppontunity 6 fon the Vice Pnesident to meet Pnesident Zelensky in person since 7 hadn't had a chance to do that at that time on at that point. I 9 nea11y just didn't make sense logistically since the Vice Pnesident had just been in Canada sevenal weeks pnion, 10 and LT it L2 it In the end, though, he the confenence was itself nea1Iy wasn't at the Vice Pnesident's IeveI, a ministenial leve1. a Ane you awane of whethen Ambassadon Volker had kind of a 13 one-on-one sepanate and apant with Pnesident Zelensky in Tononto? Did L4 you even hean anything about that? 15 A I understood if it that they wene planning to didn't 77 up going 18 the confenence, but 19 fon that on any of the read-outs aftenwands. 20 a was a one-on-one to the confenence planned to Ane you 22 OIeksandn Danylyuk? 25 with Zelensky sepanate wasn't reaIly involved fnom in eithen the planning July 10th involving Ukrainian officials House on 24 meet familian with meetings that took place at the White 21 23 I a -- well, I -- but that the gnoup that ended 16 know have Andney Yenmak and A I am awane of them because my boss, Genenal Ke}logg, met with the gnoup on the day befone, on July 9th, but I was not involved at all in the luly 10th meeting. UNCLASSIFIED 52 T]NCLASSIFIED a Let's talk a little bit 1 the punpose 2 was 3 Uknainians 4 A about the July 9th meeting. What of the meeting between Genenal Kellogg and the ? AIex Vindman was helping coondinate the Ukrainian 5 delegation's engagements in Washington. 5 gnoup was coming, and we thought 7 Genenal Kellogg 8 you know, the 9 10 11 72 13 L4 15 to have, as weI1, it So he had alented me that the would be a useful discussion fon to get to know the gnoup, and to hean, latest of what Pnesident Zelensky's administnation was doing on a nange of issues. So I annanged a meeting to take place on July 9th. a And whene did that take Place? A In Genenal Kellogg's office. a t^Jho panticipated? A Fon the U.S. side it was General Kellogg, AIex Vindman, and myself. 18 a And what was the discussion? A It was a very positive discussion, probably about 30, 40 minutes, about the status. It was veny secunity-focused, 19 obviously. 20 advison to Pnesident 2t with the conflict with Russia, you know, what steps the Zelensky 22 administration was considening in tenms of making pnogneSs in those 23 negotiations, and, genenally speaking, about the U.S.-Ukraine 24 nelationship, but not about anything 16 17 25 a Secnetany Danylyuk was Zelensky. So at the time the national secunity it was mone focused on mone the situation specific than that. Did a topic of a White House meeting fon Pnesident Zelensky UNCLASSIFIED 53 UNCLASSIFIED 1 in that meeting? A Not to my necollection. even come up 2 a A 3 4 Anything about secunity assistance? Not secunity assistance -- a U.S. secunity assistance to Uknaine? A Right. Rlght. No, just broadly about kind of the 5 6 7 U.S.-Ukraine secunity assistance nelationship, but not about any 8 specific assistance funding, if that a 9 10 A 13 74 L7 1.8 19 A I don't know specifically, and I can't necaIl exactly when it was eithen. I want to say end of Septemben. a Did you have any involvement in the meetings the next day, on July 10th, with Danylyuk and Yenmak? A I did not. a You weren't in Ambassadon Bolton's office? A No. a Wene you awane that there was a second meeting in the l,rJand 2L 22 23 25 no longen senving as national security advison? 20 24 Yes. a -- on is no longen in that position? A Yes. a Do you know the cincumstances of that, why he is t2 16 said Danylyuk was the national secunity advison to Pnesident Ze1ensky. Ane you awane he's since nesigned -- 11 15 Now, you makes sense. Room? A No. UNCLASSIFIED 54 UNCLASSIFIED 4 a You know nothing about eithen of those meetings? A No. I mean, I knew that they wene coming in the next day to meet with Ambassador Bolton, but I was not a pant of them. a Did you even speak with Alexanden Vindman on Dn. Hill about 5 what happened 1 2 3 in those meetings? 6 A NO. 7 a No. 8 A No. I 9 10 assumed would have been a similan convensation to what we had had the day befone, so nead -out I neven neached out to get a specific . they neven told you about what had And t2 a A 13 a or that they 7L happened? No. 74 meetings 15 A No. 16 a Okay. 17 it had concenns about what had happened in ? When did you finst leann of the hold on Uknaine secunity assistance -- U.S. secunity assistance to Ukraine? A I believe it 18 was JulY 3nd. 22 a And how did you leann about it? A I saw an email -- orr I suppose, a wnitten update, electnonically, that was drafted by Alex Vindman, neponting -- intennally neponting that the State Depantment 23 notified 24 notification 25 fon 19 20 2L those him that OMB was documents had not cleaning the latest nound of congnessional to move the next tnanche of secunity assistance Uknaine. UNCLASSIFIED 55 UNCLASSIFIED 3 a Do you necall who else was on that email? A It was neally an intennal update that AIex had drafted that I'm pant of the distnibution list fon, but it was just within the NSC 4 Eunope team. 5 a 1 2 6 team Okay. And that's the distnibution list, is the NSC Eunope ? A Wel1, it's in 7 pnepanation fon a nightly update fon the 8 national security advison. 9 have eventually neceived 10 a that the U.S. secunity assistance A No. 14 a Had knowledge 16 L7 18 I saw was an email just would as the 3nd email, did you have any inkling was going to be put on hold? there been any discussions about it at the NSC to youn ? A No. a A Had you heand anything about lt fnom OMB? No. a No. So this kind of came out of the blue? A rt did. a In the email did AIex Vindman pnovide any neason on nelay 19 20 2L 22 But what Okay. Prion to that July 13 15 the national secunity advison pnoduct was being cnafted fon the day. TL t2 it. So any neason as to why OMB hadn't cleaned the State funds? 24 A No. At that time it was unclean. I believe that the note -- the update indicated that OMB was holding the assistance in 25 orden 23 to conduct a funthen neview to ensune UNCLASSIFIED that the secunity assistance 56 I.INCLASSIFIED sti1l in line with administration prionities. Q Is that what it said in the email? A That's what it said in the email. L 2 3 was 4 5 Q And did AIex Vindman say whene he got that infonmation fnom? A I believe the State Depantment had neponted it to him because that's what OMB had told the State Depantment. I don't know which individuals wene involved in that. Q And you said that email was in prepanation fon a nightly 6 z s 9 10 to the national secunity A That's night. update L1 L2 13 74 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 2s a That's lohn A Cornect. a Would you advison? Bolton? also pnepane a nightly update for General Kellogg on fon the Vice Pnesident and include such infonmation? daily pnoduct. I chose not to include that update on that date because it just wasn't neally clear at that time what the neason might have been fon the hold, whethen it was maybe just mone A We do a of an administnative on technical issue. And, genenally speaking, I don't keep the Vice Pnesident infonmed of that level of detail. MR. NOBLE: to Okay. I think my time is up, so I'11 tunn it over my RePublican colleagues. THE CHAIRMAN: One houn fon the minority. MR. CASTOR: Thank You. BY MR. CASTOR: a When was the inaugunation date finally set by the Ukrainian UNCLASSIFIED 57 UNCI,ASSlFIED L Panliament A a A a A a A 2 3 4 5 6 7 May 16th. -- the Rada? Sorny. And May 16th. the inaugural was on May 20th? That's night. So thene wene 4 days in between the -- 10 Yes. Yes. It was a veny shont notice tunnanound in the end. We had been told essentially it was because the Uknainian Panliament needed to come back into session in onden to officially confinm the 11 inaugunation date, and t2 would end up recommending 13 they wene looking at the end of L4 to 8 9 move it 15 a 16 that the t7 what types 18 up to A wasn't clean what date President Zelensky to the Panliament. May window, We had been told that but in the end they decided May z0th. Between the VP may be it time peniod of Apnil 21st, when you finst learned going to the inaugunal, and the date of the inaugunal, of communications had you been having with the folks in Kyiv? Just regulan email conrespondence just to hean what they 19 heaning fnom the Uknainians about what dates wene maybe unden 20 considenation. 2l But we all necognized that we would not have a until, I believe it 22 detenmined 23 Uknainian Panliament came back 24 based on 25 was the week of into session. final So you knew it So it would be May 1-3th? UNCLASSIFIED date May 13th when the was speculation thein communications with the Uknainian officials. a Okay. wene 58 UNCLASSIFIED A 1 2 a in 9 to to know for when I believe he was Eunope. the VP into that space the President would be in the U.S. Is that conrect? A That's cornect. So we had infonmed the Uknainians that if they wanted the Vice Pnesident to attend, the ideal dates fon us would 10 have been May 29th, May 30th, on June IL dates it would be veny L2 week the Pnesident was tnaveling. A That's night. a You said that you wene tnying to fit 6 8 You mentioned Japan and then he was going 5 7 until that sure when the inauguration date would be set. 3 4 Yes, but we would have to wait A Knowing difficult 1st, and if it wasn't one of those on lmpossible. that you wouldn't have centainty until May 13th on 13 14th on 15th on 16th, did the VP's office take any affinmative steps L4 to plan the tnip? did. I 15 A 16 the team that We manages had been in touch with oun advance colleagues, the Vice Pnesident's tnavel, so that they could 19 at least have initial convensations with thein embassy countenpants on, you know, logistical anrangements in tenms of hotel availability and security and those type of things. But it was stiIl veny much 20 pneliminany since we didn't have a date. 17 18 24 a Do you know if they neserved any hotels on made A I believe -- I can't speak to the specifics since I was not involved, but fnom the email chains that I saw, I believe they wene exploning availability of hotel dates. I don't know what steps were 25 taken 2t 22 23 to make any nesenvations. UNCLASSIFIED 59 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 wonk if a Do you know A The main convensation the Secnet Senvice deployed fon thein advance ? 3 I was having with oun to advance 4 colleagues at that time was they wene very eager 5 Senvice and othen advance colleagues as soon as possible so they could 6 do pnopen planning. And so that was the ongoing discussion up 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 L4 15 16 L7 'May 13th, was when can we send send out the advance team since we out Secret until just didn't know. a Do you know if the advance team deployed? A I don't know. I don't believe they did in the end, but I'm not 100 pencent confident. a reserved You don't know if any hotels wene actually booked on ? A I believe they wene just exploning availability of hotels since we still didn't have a finm date. a Okay. Would the Vice Pnesident have been able to attend on May 20th? A 2L I don't neally recall at this time what was on his schedule for May z?th, Obviously, in the end, it was a veny shont notice, so it would have been difficult, panticulanly since we hadn't sent out the advance team, as fan as I necall. But I just don't 22 necall what was on his schedule that 18 19 20 23 24 25 a As I mentioned, day. But the window you had pnovided 29th, 30th, to the Uknainians was May 31st? A That's connect, night, and lune 1st, because that was the UNCLASSIFIED 60 UNCLASSIFIED T window we wene expecting them to be aiming fon. 2 a Okay. 3 A To be honest, we hadn't nea1ly looked that closely at the 4 Vice President's schedule before the President's trip at the end of 5 May 6 timefname. just a 7 8 because we wenen't expecting Okay. Short, one of And when Manc the Ukrainians to look at that you -- you mentioned that you heand from Manc Short's staffens? A That's night. 9 13 a And what did that person te1I you on May 13th? A It was a phone call, so I don't necall the pnecise language. But I necall being advised that the Vice Pnesident would not be attending the inaugunation. I recaIl -- I believe I asked, why not? t4 And 10 11 t2 15 I told was told that the Pnesident a Okay. But you neven had any finsthand had him not to go. knowledge fnom 20 this penson? A Conrect, I neven had -a What function does this penson penform? A She is an assistant to Manc Shont, oun Chief of Staff, is veny much involved in the scheduling of the Vice Pnesident's 2t schedule. 16 L7 18 19 22 23 24 25 anybody othen than a Okay. Did you even have any follow-ups with the decision of the A The VP and anybody about not to tnavel? only convensation I had was, immediately aften leanning that infonmation, I called my NSC countenpants UNCLASSIFIED to let them know just 61 UNCLASSIFIED L so they could stant planning next steps. 4 a But did you have a convensation with Genenal Kellogg? A No. I don't recaLl. I probably 1et him know what I had heand, because I don't believe he was involved in that convensation 5 eithen. 2 3 a Okay. A But no followup discussion as to the neason why. a Okay. Any othen communications with any othen VP office 6 7 8 9 staff? 16 initial phone ca1I, I also was in touch with oun head of advance to let him know, since he needed to tunn off the tnip planning pnocess and alent his colleagues. a Okay. And then did you also communicate back to Kyiv that the VP was unable to -A I did laten that day. I sent an email to State Depantment and Embassy Kyiv colleagues to let them know that the Vice President 77 would not be attending. 10 11 L2 13 L4 15 A Anound that same time of the 20 a And do you know what you said? A I believe my language was that the Vice Pnesident would not be able to attend. And then I put them in touch with NSC colleagues 21, fon funthen steps on who would be included in the U.S. delegation 22 the date 18 19 was set. MR. PERRY: Ma'am, 23 24 the -- Repnesentative 25 thene is once if I could ask Penny fnom -- down hene at Pennsylvania. What's the nonmal, if a nonmal lead time on a bnacket of a nonmal lead time UNCLASSIFIED for a 62 UNCLASSIFIED L Vice Presidential visit ovenseas? 2 MS. WILLIAVIS: 3 MR. PERRY: 4 MS. hIILLIAMS: Sin, obviously, the mone notice the better. Sune. I get that. I will say, fon example, to Tunkey, 5 veny necently went 6 it's possible to obviously 7 we when the Vice Pnesident got notice of that 48 houns out. do these on shont notice. But, on the other hand, fon the Vice Pnesident's tnip in eanly oniginally was meant to be the U.K., Iceland, and 8 Septemben, which 9 Ineland, we had stanted that planning pnocess months in So 7L MR. PERRY: L2 MS. WILLIAMS: Of 16 L7 18 19 20 Okay. Thank you. COUNSC. BY MR. CASTOR: 13 15 advance. ideally, obviously, the mone notice the betten. 10 L4 So a Pnesident to the July 25th call between the Pnesident Zelensky. You wene in the Situation Room? Tunning and A Yes, sin. a Pnesent fon that call? A That's night. a And do you nememben who else was in the noom with you? A I necall my boss Genenal Kellogg was there, Lieutenant 2L Colonel Vindman, and Tim Monrison, the Senion Dinecton fon Europe fon 22 NSC. I necall there wene maybe one or two othen NSC colleagues pnesent, 23 but I honestly don't 24 25 nemember which ones. We had a numben of calls that week, and I just don't necaIl who exactly was in that one. a And was that the finst time you had been on a Pnesidential UNCLASSIFIED 63 UNCLASSIFIED 1 phone call? A 2 No. 5 a Okay. And how many calls have you panticipated in? A Oh, probably a dozen since I stanted in April. a Okay. And do you know how the tnanscnipt is pnepaned? 6 A I don't 3 4 7 8 9 copy 11 of 13 t4 15 16 the mechanics behind how it's pnepaned, no. a Okay. What do you know about it? A I mean, we the Vice Pnesident's office, will get a copy of the tnanscnipts after -- once it's pnepaned so that we can pnovide a 10 L2 know to the Vice Pnesident. But I don't pnepaning I know anything about the pnocess that transcnipt. it's similan to how we neceive tnanscnipts fon the Vice Pnesident's calls. In that instance oun office, our administnative team will neceive the electnonic dnaft fnom the White House Situation Room and look at it fon -- mainly to mank the classification levels of the panagraphs, but also to check fon accunacy. imagine 20 a Okay. So the White House Situation Room pensonnel pnepanes the initial dnaft? A I don't know precisely, but that's who we neceive it fnom. a Okay. You don't know if they have count neponten-type 2L devices 17 18 19 22 23 24 25 A I don't know. a - on how they do it? A I'm not sune. a And do you know if they'ne neconded UNCLASSIFIED or not? 64 UNCLASSIFIED A I don't know, honestly. a So in the noom, that you reca11, 1 2 3 Genenal Ke11ogg, Colonel Vindman, Tim Monnison, and how many other NSC colleagues? A I can't say pnecisely, but I 4 to want 6 a Okay. Was Dn. Kuppenman thene? A I believe so, but I couldn't teII 7 a 5 8 And when you received involved with the editing say one on two othens. you 7@Q pencent. the tnanscnipt of the caII, wene you pnocess? that panticulan call? 9 A Fon 10 a Yes. 11 A I did not neceive a hand -- a copy of that panticulan call colleagues who help pnepane the Vice Pnesident's daily t2 tnanscnipt. 13 bniefing book fon his evening neading neceived the hand copy of that 1.4 panticular tnanscript. And, genenally speaking, we are neven involved 15 in the editing 16 nesponsibility for the Vice Pnesident's caLls. My pnocess of the Pnesident's 18 19 didn't have an oppontunity 20 you 2L suggest edits to check youn notes 24 A No. a -- on that type of thing? A No. 25 a 23 calIs, we only have a So you'ne i.n the Situation Room. Did you take notes? A r did. a But when the initial dnafts of the tnanscnipt came through, L7 22 phone to the tnanscnipt, Did you have any communications with anybody in the UNCLASSIFIED noom 65 UNCLASSIFIED t about the editing process A No. a Okay. 2 3 4 A No. No. I neason 9 10 11 t2 15 16 me . A I was A I didn't my notebook fnom I nead word-fon-wond. 25 that it convensation. in the noom and taking notes and then neading accunate and complete? as a panticipant on Presidential phone calls? 19 24 have that particulan tnanscnipt, so no a Okay. As accunate as can be, given youn expenience matched my 23 Genenal until the publicly neleased vension that the White House neleased in Septemben. So I nead that tnanscnipt. And at a finst neading it looked substantially accurate to me. 18 22 a convensation with never saw the tnanscnipt When 2t have neven saw Based on being L7 20 to the tnanscnipt, 13 14 fon a 7 8 didn't So you Kellogg about whethen the tnanscnipt was accunate? 5 6 of the transcnipt? a expenience A do a wond-fon-wond companison. I didn't get out July at that point and look canefully. it fon the finst time in Septemben, it genenally necollection fnom the caII, but, again, not looking at So it's as complete as it can be to the best of it youn ? Yes, not knowing -- not looking canefully at the specific wonds. a A Did you even compane youn notes More necently to the tnanscnipt? I went back to look when I UNCLASSIFIED had heand that there 56 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Lt t2 13 1.4 15 15 t7 18 19 zo zL 22 23 24 2s was other testimony thnough this pnocess that Colone1 Vindman had noticed a couple My -- I believe Lieutenant of small discnepancies. notes did neflect that the wond Bunisma had come up in the that the President had mentioned Bunisma. I caII, hadn't noticed that when I finst nead the tnanscniPt. Q Which President? A I'm sonrY. Pnesident TnumP. Q OkaY. A But I had not looked that canefully back in Septemben when the tnanscript was first neleased to notice that detail. a Did you come communications to leann thnough public neponts on direct with Colonel Vindman A only through the public I have his discnepancies? neporting of this inquiny pnocess. not had any convensations with Alex Vindman about this. a And what was to, the best of youn knowledge, what wene his issues? A I would have to refer to the public recond in terms of what pnecisely he said. a But you said something about Burisma? A I recall that one of the issues he had noted was that the tnanscnipt neleased did not include the back at my notes, I wond Bunisma. But on looking do see that Bunisma was mentioned by name in the call. a Okay. And do you know whethen Colonel Vindman's issue with Bunisma was nelated to something Pnesident Zelensky said on Pnesident UNCLASSIFIED 67 UNCLASSTFIED 1 Trump said? 4 A I don't know what Colonel Vindman's issue was. When I went back to check my notes, I had wnitten that President Tnump had naised Bunisma. I don't know if that neflects what Colonel Vindman said as 5 weIl. 2 3 a A 6 7 8 12 a Have you nefenned to youn notes necently? A Within the last week. a Okay. You have? A Yes. a Okay. But you just don't nememben as you sit 15 16 77 18 24 25 I don't hene today whene A I 20 23 laten on in the ca1l, but now. t4 22 mean, a Like, do you nememben whene in youn notes it appeans? A I don't have my notes, so I can't neaIly nefen to them night 11 2t I a Okay. Laten on in the call? A Yes. 10 19 Not pnecisely. the caII he mentioned that? know pnecisely when. 9 13 Do you nememben when duning mean, not having it in front of me, not pnecisely whene, no. a Any othen issues with the call that you flagged? A Not that I noticed. a Okay. Wene you awane of any othen issues Colonel Vindman had flagged? UNCLASSIFIED 68 UNCLASSIFIED A 1 2 3 4 so I don't know exactlY what he 8 9 10 LL L2 13 L4 15 16 t7 18 19 I wasn't pnesent fon his testimony, -- Q Okay. But you nead some news accounts about it? A That's night. 5 5 7 Not pnecisely. Again, Q Okay. Have you been following along in the news as witnesses have been appeaning hene? A I have. Q okay. And which witnesses have you nead news accounts about? A ProbablY all of them. a Okay. Have you been neading the opening have been some have been neleased? A I have. statements that a OkaY. ComPletelY? A Probably not all of them, but, yes. a At any point in time between July 25th and the release of the call tnanscnipt on Septemben 25th, did you have any communications with Vindman about A the call? No. 20 a okay. When the tnanscnipt was made available to the VP's 21, office, do you nememben when that occunned? A My colleagues I can't nememben the pnecise time, but 22 23 24 2s before the end of the day that day my colleagues who help pnepane the Vice pnesident's bniefing book neceived a hand copy of the tnanscnipt fnom the White House Situation Room to include in that book. I didn't UNCLASSIFIED 69 UNCLASSIFIED 1 pensonally see 2 we wanted but I undenstood to make sune the Vice that they had neceived it Pnesident got because it. a 0n the 25th on 26th? A It was on the 25th. a Okay. Was that the final vension? 0n don't you know? A I don't know. I mean, it's the vension that we provided to 3 4 5 6 7 it, the Vice Pnesident. 13 a Okay. So that went into his bniefing book? A That's night. a And do you know if he even neviewed the call? A I don't know. a So nobody told you one way on anothen whethen the Vice Pnesident was able to read it, whethen it be General Kellogg on some t4 othen VP staffen? 8 9 10 11 L2 A That's right. I just don't know if he nead it. a Do you know how fnequently the VP neads his bniefing book? A We pnovide him with a daily bniefing book of various updates 15 16 t7 18 on foneign policy mattens. I'm not pnesent when he neviews that, so 20 I nealIy -- I'm not in a position to say. a Okay. So you have no idea one way on anothen whethen it's 2t his regulan practice to 19 nead nead the book? A I'd like to think that he neads the book, but I don't know 22 23 if 24 convensations with him about 25 the book on not he neads them eveny a day. We don't nonmally have follow-on it aftenwands. And was thene any fol1ow-on convensation about UNCLASSIFIED the content 70 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 of the 7 /25 ca}l? A No. a 3 Okay. So he didn't task anybody, such as Manc Short or 4 Genenal Ke1logg, 5 the call? 6 A Not 7 a Duning 8 do anything on get any my additional infonmation about knowledge. He didn't task the peniod of 7/25 to me. Septemben 25th, did you have any communications with anybody about the content of the tnanscnipt? A 9 No. a 0n the content of the call? A No. a Okay. So aften the call occurned, did you talk with Genenal 10 11 L2 13 to to Kellogg about it? 16 A No. He was in the noom during the call as weIl, so I didn't feel a need to have a convensation with him. a Did you wnite up a memo or anything to anyone else on the t7 VP t4 15 18 19 staff? A I had included an update that evening fon that same in the Vice Pnesident's daily repont bniefing book, mentioning that the Pnesident 2L call that day with Pnesident Zelensky and kind of pnoviding a bnoad ovenview of the call and noting that the transcnipt was also 22 included in the book. 20 23 24 25 had had a a Do you nememben what else you included in that descniption? A It was veny general. I didn't mention anything specific. I'm trying to nememben if thene was anothen Uknaine update that day. UNCLASSIFfED 7L UNCLASS]FIED sonry. Coincidentally, the Vice Pnesident's office Oh, yes, 1 had 3 letten fnom Senaton Lankfond expressing the Senaton's suppont fon Uknaine. I believe he had wnitten it on July 18th, but 4 it 2 neceived a 6 office on JuIy 25th, so I thought that was something that the Vice Pnesident would want to neceive and nead. So the update I included was nefenencing that letter, and then 7 also mentioning that, since it was also Uknaine-nelated: Fon youn 8 awaneness, the Pnesident, President Tnump had also had a 9 with President Zelensky; that call tnanscnipt is included in youn book 5 10 was neceived by oun a Okay. But you didn't flag anything notewonthy about the call? 13 A That's night. L4 a 15 you had no discussions with anybody fronT /25 So A No. 17 a So 19 if you had any concenns, you didn't naise A I neven discussed that call flagging it fon the Vice 2L Pnesident's attention in his book that evening. 24 25 with Genenal the call with Genenal KeIIogg, and neven specifically 23 them Kellogg? 20 22 to 9/25 about what happened on the call? 16 18 day as welI. 11 t2 call that a nefenenced beyond Okay. So it wasn't until the call became public that it of issues to think about? A I think that's fair to say. a Aften the call tnanscnipt was made public, did you have any neemenged on youn nadan UNCLASSIFIED 72 UNCLASSIFlED L communications 3 A a 4 nenewed 5 A 2 with anybody about it, such as Genenal Kellogg? About the accunacy No, just of the tnanscnipt on just in about what happened on the call. Thene's 7 some focus, obviously -Sune. a -- once Septemben 25th comes anound. A 0f course. Not specific to the call. I think 6 genenal? we aII, in 9 office, anyway, the Vice Pnesident's office, wene neading the news and, you know, the updates related to that call and concenns about 10 Uknaine. But I don't necall any specific convensation with General 11 Kellogg on othens kind of going back to the oniginal 72 in it. 8 13 oun a By the time Septemben call and what was 25th comes anound, everybody is L4 talking about, you know, Biden and Bunisma and Rudy Giuliani and all 15 that stuff. Did you even cincle 15 of nevisit, you know, what wene you thinking t7 A 18 specifically. 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 back with General Kellogg and sont when you heand this? No, we neven had a folIow-on conversation about the call a Okay. Wene you sunprised by the attention that those aspects of the call neceived once it became public A No. in Septemben? a A No, I was not sunpnised. a Okay. Did you expect that at some point it would? A Yes. UNCLASSIFIED 73 UNCLASS]FTED 1 a okay. 2 A Sorny, just to clarify. It's not that I 3 call would someday 4 sunpnised 6 that that a Okay. 5 The A Yes, sln. 8 a For 12 a 13 20 27 22 tnip to Wansaw, yoU tnaveled with the Vice meeting the Vice Pnesident had with And what was the date, do you nememben, of the VP's meeting Zelensky? A Septemben lst. a Okay. And maybe just walk us thnough the chnonology of that 76 19 was not a focus. that bilatenal with Pnesident 15 18 I A r did. a You wene on the whole tnip? A Yes. LL t7 was neleased Pnesident Zelensky? 10 t4 was public, but once it Pnesident on that? 7 9 become that the expected tnip ? A Sure. a To the extent you remember? A Absolutely. I had been working on that trip up until that point. So we had been fon many months oniginally planning fon the Vice Pnesident to 23 tnavel to the U.K., Iceland, and Ineland in eanly September. The date 24 of that 25 nelated was neally hooked to an event that to tnade. UNCLASSIFIED he panticipated in in London 74 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 the United States, When Hunnicane Donian was appnoaching obviously, as I think evenyone hene knows, the Pnesident decided to stay back in tnlashington and asked the Vice pnesident to tnavel to Poland in his 5 place. That tnip was nevolving anound a World War 6 z that took place in Warsaw, also on Septemben the pnesident had been 8 9 10 multilatenal meetings on the tL we found tz 13 L4 15 16 I t7 18 I hadn't So tnip because was on mangins commemonation event 1st. numben And the plans fon of bilatenal and of that. been closety tnacking we were the plans fon the Pnesident's kind of busy with oun own trip planning, but once out on August 29th that the Vice Pnesident would be going, with spoke also to engage in a II my NSC colleagues the Pnesident's agenda undenstanding of what fon the tnip so that we could start to take that on. pneparing the Vice Pnesident the range of diffenent to get a better So we walked thnough engagements planned and then pnoposed fon the VP. We had to scale it tacking the Poland component it 19 20 2L to 22 Pnesident make that as tight nemained on A in poland component ZS papens the meeting with Pnesident Zelensky. the bniefings that occurned fon the Vice of the bilatenal meeting with Pnesident Zelensky? So we had veny that they was And what wene advance 23 24 possible. But, obviously, one of the engagements the schedule Okay. a as little bit just since we wene basically onto oun existing tnip. So we wene tnying back a limited time, obviously, to of the tnip. So pnepane fon the I nelied heavily on the NSC bniefing had alneady pnepaned fon UNCLASSIFIED the Pnesident's 75 UNCLASSIFIED 1 panticipation, which are not the 2 a pinch so we used those, and r pnepaned sepanate 3 on 4 his wnitten bniefing materials. same fonmat as that infonmation fon the Vice President. a A 5 6 So ouns, but we wene in talking points that kind of based compnised OkaY. Pnion to leaving, General Kellogg had asked, at the nequest 7 of the Vice Pnesident, fon an update on the status of the security 8 assistance that was at that time 9 thene had been a Politico anticle that had come out neferencing the 10 hold on U.S. secunity assistance to Uknaine, so we anticipated that L7 Pnesident Zelensky would want an update on L2 the pnepanation Once we 13 still on hold. In that that. So same that timefname, was pant pnocess. got on the gnound in Wansaw thene was a pne-bnief meeting 14 just 15 Bolton, Genenal Kel1ogg, oun Chief 16 of Staff, L7 colleagues bniefed the Vice Pnesident befone meeting Pnesident 18 Ze1ensky. 19 20 befone the meetlng with Pnesident Zelensky Manc Shont, and myself, a Okay. of So thene was in which Ambassadon of -- the Vice Pnesident's Chief and I believe a couple of othen OVP wnitten bniefing matenials that you sent thnough General Kellogg? 23 A That's night, and we added to oun ovenall trip book. Yeah. a Okay. So the VP gets the wnitten matenials, and then thene's a bniefing. And you said -- who was the main speaken duning the 24 bniefing? 2L 22 25 A In that bniefing, Ambassadon Bolton had just been in Uknaine UNCLASSIFIED 76 UNCLASSIFIED L sevenal days prion and had had a senies of very in-depth engagements, 2 including with Pnesident Zelensky, so he nea1Iy took the lead in that 3 pne-bnief to pnepane the Vice Pnesident fon the meeting. a 4 5 the And do you nememben what Ambassadon Bolton communicated to VP? A 6 He basically pnovided a nead-out of his meeting. He had had 7 veny positive engagements and had been impnessed by President 8 Zelensky's nefonm agenda in the sense that thein parliamentany pnocess 9 had 7L just stanted. So the election had been held just pneviously, and I think they had just come into session. And one noteworthy item was that the Zelensky administnation t2 alneady had hundneds of 10 16 to go, and so Ambassadon Bolton pnovided an ovenview of some of those. And then in tenms of the secunity assistance, because that Politico stony had just come out 2 days pnion, Ambassadon Bolton kind of outlined that, you know, what that secunity assistance was fon and the need -- they agneed on the t7 need L3 L4 15 bills ready 18 to get a final decision on that secunity assistance as soon as possible so that it could be implemented befone the end of the fiscal 19 yean. 20 27 a At the time, A Yes. 23 a And so 25 the genenal mood that -- the hope was that the secunity assistance would be delivened? 22 24 was the idea that the secunity assistance would penmanently withheld wasn't as much of A I think I be a senious considenation? sensed evenyone wanted UNCLASS]FIED to avoid that scenanio. 77 UNCLASSIFIED 1 a Okay. And was it Ambassadon 3 Pnesident Zelensky? 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 A I believe so, yes. a That he nan on a nefonm agenda? A Uh-huh. Yes. a And so the conclusion, at least at that point, 15 ongoing influence 16 impnessed by 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 he's headed a And he's a genuine nefonmen? A Connect. a And his anticonnuption initiatives were legitimate? A Yes. I mean, I think that, you know, there's still ongoing concenn about what 18 was in the night dinection? A Yes. t4 L7 that bniefing that Bolton was genuinely impnessed with the authenticity of 2 4 youn impnession duning kind of limitations Zelensky face given the of oligarchs in Uknaine. But I think we wene all his effonts and wanted to suppont them. a Okay. And duning that pne-bniefing -bniefing may whene did the occun? A The pne-brief? a Yeah. A It was in a hotel noom, in the hotel whene we wene staying. a So it was in Warsaw? A In Warsaw. a The hotel in Wansaw? A That's night. TINCLASSIFIED 78 UNCLASSIFIED 2 A A 3 that bniefing. 1 Was Ambassadon Sondland thene? Not in that briefing, no. He was on the tnip, but not a Was he in any othen bniefings with the VP? A I believe he had been in a bniefing eanlien in the day, night 4 5 of a genenal bniefing, and an 6 aften oun arrival, which 7 intelligence update fon the Vice Pnesident since 8 all A11 right. But I 10 11 was discussed. L2 13 14 18 bniefing t9 was they got to the L7 16 not in that briefing, so I don't And you saw Ambassadon Sondland enten know exactly what the bniefing? Connect. Do you know if he was a scheduled panticipant in that ? A I believe he nequested to be added to that frankly, evenything about this tnip 27 nealty a scheduled was shont notice. bniefing. So thene But, wasn't list of panticipants in advance. a And do you know if he was even, you know, on the official -- on a fonmal 24 list fon that bniefing? A Again, thene wasn't nealIy a fonmal list 25 pne-bnief, so I can't say one 23 flying noom. 20 22 we had been a Were you in and anound that bniefing? A I was neanby that bniefing. I had helped to make sune that a A a 15 was mone night. a A 9 on way on fon that particulan the othen whethen he was a scheduled UNCLASSIFIED 79 UNCLASSIFIED L 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 panticipant. Okay. a So thene was an intelligence bniefing with the VP in the monning. You didn't go to that one but A Connect. a A And you wene neanby, you said? a And then Ambassador Sondland did? Yes. occunned the bniefing in advance of the bilatenal meeting laten in the day? A Connect. It occunned aften we -- the delegation -- the Vice 10 Pnesident and the delegation had netunned fnom the Wonld War 11 commemonation t2 was happening 13 the meetlng with Zelensky. event back to the just aften that, 15 a Okay. A No. 16 a 74 t7 talking Okay. A He did. 19 a Did the the meeting with Uknaine the pne-bnief happened just befone Was Ambassadon Sondland in that And you Bolton did most of the call said come Ambassadon one? up, the 7/25 caIL between Pnesident and Zelensky, come up duning 2t A No, not to 22 a 23 and so And ? 18 20 hotel. II Tnump that bniefing? my necollection. So nobody flagged for the VP, "Hey, the Pnesident had a call with Pnesident Zelensky"? 24 A No. No. It neally didn't 25 a come up. Okay. UNCLASSIFIED 80 UNCLASSIFIED A Yeah. t No, it 2 mone necent engagements 3 a couple days prion. a 4 5 VP with President Zelensky that to the best of your recollection, 8 Politico stony that had 10 assistance ho1d. And so 11 be L2 pnepane finst just have bnoken 2 days I think had taken place no one flagged fon the pnior about the secunity the group anticipated that that would and fonemost on President Zelensky's mind, and we wanted to the VP to be able a Is thene anything 13 15 much A Connect. Thene was no discussion of that whatsoeven. a Okay. In hindsight, does that sunpnise you? A No, not neaIIy. I think the mone immediate concenn was the 7 L4 Bolton's that Pnesident Zelensky may be on alent to talk about investigations? 6 9 But was nea1ly focused on Ambassadon to to those questions. else fnom that briefing? Did anybody nespond else a speaking nole othen than Ambassadon Bolton? A I added a few points on othen agenda items that might come 19 in gneat detail. a Okay. Is thene any othen detail you can nememben at the meeting worth telling us about? A I don't think so. It was pnetty focused on the secunity 20 assistance. 16 17 18 2t 22 23 Up, but not a Okay. And then the next event is the bilateral meeting? A Connect. a And can you necollect genenally what the Vice Pnesident 24 communicated 25 A to Pnesident Zelensky -- Sure. UNCLASSIFIED 81 UNCLASSTFIED a -- duning that meeting? A Yes. So it was a good meeting. 1 2 So it stanted 3 of these foneign engagements do, with a pness spnay. 4 made comments off, So each as most pnincipal 6 of minutes. Once the camenas left the noom, the veny finst question that Pnesident Zelensky had was about the status of secunity assistance. 7 And 8 Uknaine, but wanting 9 the status of his nefonm 10 to the Pnesident, and also wanting 11 Eunopean countnies 5 12 13 the on camena fon a numben neaIIy expnessing oun ongoing suppont fon VP nesponded by a Okay. to hean from Pnesident Zelensky, you know, what effonts could do to wene that he could then convey back to hean if thene was mone that suppont Uknaine. Did the VP express the President's ovenall outlook on foneign aid? L] speclfically. I think in tenms of discussing the nole of Eunopean countnies, I think it was meant to make that point in tenms of the Pnesident's Pnesident Trump's expectations that othen countnies would also step up to pnovide mone suppont. It was more in 18 those tenms. 74 15 16 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 A a Not Sepanate fnom that, are you awane of the Pnesident's on foreign aid? A Yes. a That he has a skeptical view of fonelgn ald? A I think that's fain to say. a Ane you awane that he's commissioned a review acnoss govennment of all U.S. fonelgn assistance? UNCLASSTFTED view 82 UNCLASSIFIED A I'm awane thene have been a numben of I 2 assistance. I'm not sune of the specific one neviews of foneign that you'ne neferencing. 6 a But it's centainly a well-established fact that Pnesident Tnump is extnemely skeptical of U.S. foreign aid? A I think that's fair to saY. a And he wants to make sune U.S. taxpayen dollans ane spent 7 in the night way? 3 4 5 77 A Sune. Correct. a And we'ne getting a good retunn on that investment, connect? A That's what I've heand him expness, yes. a So the Vice Pnesident - - coming back to the meeting, the Vice t2 Pnesident's meeting with Pnesident Ze1ensky, and he naises the pnospect 13 that the U.S. hopes on at least Pnesident L4 allies step up and contnibute more? 8 9 10 A That's connect. 15 16 conveyed a A 77 18 19 to That was part of what the Vice Pnesident Pnesident ZelenskY. And what was Pnesident Zelensky's neaction? President Zelensky agneed He made that it the point, though, that as impontant as the funding the stnategic value was, 22 suppont 23 the Uknainians as the actual dollans. a A was itself of -- the symbolic value of U.S. 2L 25 that oun Eunopean in the sense that I think he centainly would welcome mone suppont fnom all allies and pantnens. 20 24 Tnump hopes in tenms of security assistance that was just as valuable to Okay. He was making the point that, you know, any hold on appeanance UNCLASSIFIED 83 UNCLASSTFIED 1 of 2 that the United States was no longen neconsidenation of such assistance might embolden Russia committed to to think Ukraine. 6 a Okay. And what was the Vice Pnesident's reaction to that? A He assuned Pnesident Zelensky that thene was no change in U.S. policy in tenms of oun fuII -- full-thnoated support fon Uknaine and its soveneignty and tennitonial integnity, and assuned that he 7 would convey back 8 Zelensky 9 hopefully 3 4 5 10 13 Tnump what he had heand fnom in tenms of Zelensky's we could President good pnogness on nefonms, so that get a decision on the security assistance as soon as possible. a 11 t2 to Pnesident the So nefonm A the Vice Pnesident signaled to Pnesident Zelensky that effonts that he had implemented to date He did. He didn't make a concnete wene encounaging? pnomise on a decision, t4 but expnessed a positive view of what Pnesident Zelensky had conveyed 15 and pnomised to convey that 16 a Okay. And did he t7 give a specific timeframe or 20 A a A 2t Tnump befone 18 19 22 23 24 25 back to the how Pnesident. did he communicate that? Did he For a decision? Fon communicating back He told with the President? Pnesident Zelensky the end of the that he would speak to Pnesident day. a Okay. So it was a nelatively -A Shont timefname. a Okay. And specific. The VP committed to talk to the Pnesident about this? UNCLASSIFIED 84 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A That's right. 2 a 4 Q s 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 74 15 t6 t7 18 L9 20 27 22 23 24 2s of And duning the counse of the meeting thene was no discussion any investigations A No that the Uknainians specific investigations, do? flo. Q Okay. Like the 2016 election didn't A It did not. Q CnowdStnike didn't come uP? A to wene come up? No. Q OkaY. Formen VP Biden -A No. a -- didn't come up? The name wasn't uttened? A Not once. the name Bunisma neven came up? A A And a A And you wenen't surpnised by that? No. No, I wasn't expecting those specific issues to necessanily come up. a A And Ambassadon Sondland, he was in that meeting? He was. a To the extent you can rememben, who wene the othen U.S. officials staffing the VP at the bilatenal meeting? A It was a big meeting, so fongive me if I miss a name on two. But, obviously, the Vice Pnesident was the lead. We had Secnetany Penny. We had Ambassadon I believe we Sondland. Tim Monnison. also had Wells Gniffith, UNCLASSIFIED who is the Enengy Senion 85 UNCLASSIFIED I Dinecton fon NSC; ; myself. 2 3 4 5 6 7 I. I We had pnobably am missing a name on two. Fongive a Was Ambassadon Volken thene? A I'm tnying to necall. Pnobably. I apologize, I just neally don't me. nemember. It was LI call a six plus six. So thene wene six fnont-benchers and six back-benchers on each side. But I just don't necaIl. 0h, sonny, Ambassadon Bolton was there. He had to }eave pantway thnough the meeting to catch his flight, but he was thene fon at least L2 pant of the discussion. 8 9 10 13 what we a And -- Ambassador 74 Gondon's 15 Uknainians 16 77 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 aften the meeting ended, wene you awane of any of Gondon Sondland, any of his activities with the ? A I wasn't awane, no. a Okay. It's been neponted, and you may have nead this in some of the news accounts, that he confenred with some of Pnesident Zelensky -- at least one of Pnesident Zelensky's aides? A I've read that, but I wasn't aware at the time. a Okay. So you didn't witness Ambassadon Sondland puII aside any Uknainians? A I did not, no. a And did that fact come to light on come to duning the tnip? UNCLASSIFIED youn attention 85 UNCLASSIFIED L A No, not until the more necent press neports of that. 2 After the Zelensky meeting, the Vice Pnesident went on with his that evening. And kind of 3 schedule. 4 the Uknaine component of oun tnip concluded and we moved on to the nest 5 of We had an evening dinnen event oun itinenany. a Okay. So you left with the VP's delegation? A That's night. So the next day we had bilatenal 6 7 engagements of Poland, with the President, with Pnesident 8 with the 9 and sevenal othen events, a quick engagement with the Pnime Ministen Govennment Duda, 12 to Ireland, I believe. a Okay. Did anyone nelate to you -- I think you said the answen is no, but I'1I just double back -- no one nelated to you that Sondland 13 had 10 11 74 of Poland, flew onward a communication with Yenmak? and then A No. Not -- no. talked about that with Colonel a A So you neven -- on Tim Monnison? 18 a A No. 79 a Did Monnison stay fon the whole meeting on did he leave with 15 16 77 20 27 22 23 Vindman No. Ambassadon Bolton? A He stayed, because he engagements a the next also joined us fon the Poland day. Okay. At this point in time -- and you've seen the news 24 accounts about whethen thene wene any conditionality fon White House 25 meetings -- did that topic come up at all? UNCLASSIFIED Wene you awane that 87 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Ambassadon Sondland was pnessing this? 5 A In tenms of scheduling a White House meeting? a Right, some of this conditionality with -A I wasn't awane of Ambassadon Sondland's panticular role in that. I was aware that President Zelensky was veny eagen to get a 6 scheduled meeting 7 Zelensky may naise that with the Vice Pnesident 8 But 9 speak, 2 3 4 I 11 wasn't awane of any, of a 10 at the White House. And we expected actually that Iike, in his meeting as well. discussions behind the scenes, so to scheduling that meeting. Did you know Ambassadon Volken had been wonking with Mn. Yenmak? A I was not awane, oo. a Okay. So at the time you had no awaneness that thene was L2 13 t4 this concept of the Uknainians looking into the 2016 election 15 up any othen sont on opening of investigation? A The 18 a Okay. 19 At any point duning this tnip, you know, you went on to meet -- the 16 17 20 27 22 23 24 25 only reference I had heand to that was on the JuIy 25th call. Vice Pnesident went on to meet with, I think you said A Poland and, like, the rest of the tnip? a Right. Went on -- did he tnavel to Poland on was the meeting -- A WelI, we stayed in Poland an extna day to do the Polish engagements and then flew onwand to Ineland, Iceland, and the U.K. UNCLASSIFIED 88 UNCLASSIFIED t a A 2 So you met We did. It with the was Pnime Ministen of Poland? a bilatenal meeting with the Pnesident of bnief meeting with the 3 Poland and then a 4 on 5G, and then we flew onwand to Ineland. a 5 6 No. 8 a Thene was a press A That's night. L1 a 72 availability? 15 16 availability, I think, between the VP and Do you nememben whethen anything came up A Yes. One of the U.S. repontens, I can't during that nememben this is So 18 19 a A reponter asked the Vice Pnesident whethen 20 21 pness which one, I believe asked the Vice President about that issue, I believe, whethen it had come up in the Uknaine meeting the day before, since it was the Vice Pnesident's finst pness engagement since the Zelensky meeting. a A L7 with Duda. 10 L4 come up about Biden on Bunisma? A 13 Ministen to sign an MOU In the meeting with Pnesident Duda, did anything 7 9 Pnime had come A on Septemben 2nd? Cornect. -- what exactly up? My necollection is that the U.S. neporten asked the -- 22 Pnesident -- sonny, the Vice Pnesident 23 Vice Pnesident Biden on Bunisma had come up in his meeting with 24 Pnesident Zelensky the day befone. 25 a And what was whethen the issue of fonmen Vice Pnesident Pence's neaction to that? UNCLASSIF]ED 89 UNCLASSIFIED 8 A He said no. a Okay. Was he sunpnised that it was raised? A I don't know. I don't know if he was sunpnised by it. But it hadn't come up, so it was easy fon him -a It was easy fon him to say no? A Yes. a Okay. Duning this time peniod, in discussions with the NSC staff, whethen Colone1 Vindman on Tim Monnison, had you had any 9 discussions with them about Biden, Bunisma, 2016 investigations? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A No. a Okay. 10 LL L2 Had you had any discussions point about the nole of A No. 13 Ambassadon Sondland We had neven had instance in which Ambassador Sondland's 15 Pnesident assumed the nole of the Pnesident 16 I L7 delegatlon. That 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 a Dn. Fiona A that You that. The only in the tnip to to the Vice Poland and be pant of the it. us eanlien that you did have one convensation with HilI that involved Giuliani? Much Yovanovitch' a told staff at this name came up was when Ambassadon Sondland was scheduled was NSC on Rudy Giuliani? discussions about L4 leanned with eanlier on, in May, with negands to Ambassadon s nemovaL. Fnom that point forwand had you had any about the Giuliani component nelating to A No. a -- with anyone? UNCLASSIFIED Uknaine other convensations 90 UNCLASSIFIED I A No. 2 neponting kind 3 any nelated 4 5 I'm tnying to think of mone if thene was even any specific press in the July-August timefname. I don't neca11 to Giuliani's nole in Uknaine. But we neven -- I had any intennal convensations about his nole. neven a Okay. And through this whole pnocess, have you had any 6 discussions with Tim Monnison about Giuliani's nole or the concept of 7 these investigations? 11 A a A a 12 leanned about 8 9 10 13 74 15 15 t7 18 No. How about with Colonel Vindman? No. The security assistance ho1d, you mentioned you finst that on July 3nd? A That's night. a So that was about 2 weeks befone the JuIy 18th sub-PCC meeting ? A a Connect. And was the hold at that point on July 3nd known outside of the complex? The complex meaning the EEOB? 19 A 20 Yes, in the sense that the nepont that Sune, the EEOB. to that had 2t Depantment neponting 22 at least OMB and State knew about lt. 23 24 25 NSC OMB I told had seen was the State them about the hold. So a Okay. And then did anything happen between that exchange A email that you told us about and the July 18th sub-PCC meeting? Not that I saw. I don't know if UNCLASSIFIED othen agencies or 91 UNCLASSIFIED t individuals the status of the assistance. had funthen discussions about 5 a And wene you involved with the luly 18th meeting? A I did not attend that meeting because I was on pne-advance tnavel fon the Vice Pnesident's tnip that week. So my finst meeting that I attended on that issue was the following week, the luly 23rd 6 PCC. 2 3 4 \L a Okay. And did you get a nead-out of the July L8th meeting? A r did. a What do you necaIl about the secunity assistance hold? A I nead the summany of conclusions fnom that meeting that NSC had pnepaned, and it discussed the fact that the intenagency was made 72 awane, fon those who wenen't alneady awane, 13 assistance. 74 fon 15 the hold 7 8 9 10 17 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 on the secunity State and DOD and othen agencies expnessed suppont lifting that hold as soon as possible and that the reason behind a A a A a A a A 16 And of the hold was because Okay. OMB And then was conducting a funthen neview. the next event was the PCC? Connect. And what date was July again? 23nd. Okay. r that And you attended that did. And what do you nememben fnom It meeting? was a veny that meeting about the similan discussion. Essentially, it hold? was just level up, at the assistant secnetary }evel, all the agencies supponting -- expnessing thein suppont fon lifting the hold. And the one UNCLASSIFIED 92 UNCLASSIFIED repnesentative conveyed that they had been dinected by the Chief 1 OMB 2 of Staff, the White 3 funther notice. a 4 5 Chief of Staff, to continue holding it until the hope generally at that point that the assistance And was would be neleased? A 6 Yes. a And did you panticipate in any other meetings A r did. a -- with negard to the secunity assistance? 7 8 9 A Yes. 10 tt House The next meeting was a Deputies Committee meeting on July 26th, so 3 days laten. a Okay. A And, again, it 12 13 was a veny similan discusslon with all 1.4 agencies, deputy secnetanies expnessing suppont, and OMB expnessing 15 that the hold would continue until funther notice. A Okay. 16 Was thene any discussion that with the new Uknainian L7 Govennment, with the new 18 that was pant A It 19 20 Zelensky and the new Rada, whethen hold? was not discussed in those tenms. OMB neven -- did not provide a detailed explanation fon the reason behind the hold. a 2t 22 of the -- President Okay. And anything else notable about the 7/26 Deputies meeting? A I 23 guess to kind of I would do the due 24 meant 25 the policy chain, in just say this whole pnocess of meetings was diligence of wonking the issue up the chain, onden to pnompt the scheduling of a Pnincipals UNCLASSIFIED 93 UNCLASSIFIED at 1 Committee meeting 2 guidance on whethen 3 4 a Okay. to lift the hold. aften theT/26 meeting, what was the next scheduled meeting? 5 A 6 a Pnincipals 7 a 8 So which Cabinet-level secnetanies would pnovide My undenstanding was NSC colleagues wene So Committee meeting, Connect. 10 a And what can you 11 Septemben L1-th, when T2 finsthand facts? 15 A Behind a A yes. tell is the the aid us between JuIy 26th and was neleased? Did you come the hold and what the status into any was? Not specifically. Because thene was no Principals 16 Committee meeting scheduled duning t7 my nadan, othen than 18 was neven scheduled. last one? A 74 it the 7/26 meeting, to the best of youn knowledge, 9 13 but looking to schedule that timefname, it wasn't high the fact that And then towards it continued to on be held. the end of August once the Vice Pnesident 19 inhenited the tnip to Poland and we knew he'd be meeting with Pnesident 20 Zelensky, he nequested infonmation about the status of the hold so 2t could pnepane fon those meetings. So I pnovided an update to Genenal 22 Ke1logg, who passed 23 24 25 that to the we VP. a And do you rememben when the news of the hold became public? A I believe it was August 29th on 30th a Thnough the Politico stony? UNCLASSIFIED 94 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A a Right. 3 of anything in panticular that happened once you got back fnom the Wansaw tnip, between that date and 4 Septemben 5 convened 2 6 And ane you aware 11th? Do you know if the Pnincipals Committee even ? A I don't believe that thene was even a Principals is that the Vice Pnesident Committee had spoken with 7 convened. 8 the Pnesident dinectly aften his meeting with Pnesident Zelensky 9 Septemben My undenstanding lst, 10 exactly what 11 about L2 t3 74 15 it but I wasn't pnivy to that convensation, so I don't was discussed and whether upon on know they had a funthen convensation the Vice Pnesident's netunn after his tnip. a Did you get a read-out of that call? A I did not. a So between July 26th and Septemben 11th thene wene no meetings on communications that you were a pant of? 17 A I necall that -- I believe right before we left on the tnip on, I guess it was August 30th, the Fniday, that I learned through oun 18 Chief of Staff that thene had been a small gnoup discussion, not a fonmal t9 meeting, 20 of Staff, 21 of Ukraine security assistance, but I 22 a Okay. And anything 16 23 24 25 I Septemben believe involving Dn. and Kuppenman and Manc Shont, oun Chief I don't know who the othens wene, nelated to the status was not present fon that meeting. you know about what happened up to 11th fnom September 1st? A I will say that also in the lead-up to oun tnip, to the Vice Pnesident's tnip to Poland, Senaton lohnson had neached out to tny to UNCLASSIFTED 95 UNCLASSIFIED with the Vice Pnesident because he was also tnaveling to Uknaine 1 speak 2 shontly 3 he 4 than 5 that took but I believe also wanted to discuss the status of secunity assistance. But othen that, I'm not awane of any fonmal meetings on othen discussions pIace. a Okay. 6 7 aften. I don't believe that call even connected, Do you nememben when Senaton lohnson's tnip was, noughly? A It 8 9 Po1and, so 10 ]ike that. I was a few days want to say it aften the Vice Pnesident saw Zelensky was pnobably Septemben 3nd on 4th, in something 13 a And who else was on that trip? Any othen Senatons? A I believe so, but I honestly don't nememben. We wene on our tnip in othen pants of Eunope, so I wasn't tnacking it closely at that L4 point. LL 12 a Okay. And do you know if the Senatons had a view on the aid? A My undenstanding was that they wene suppontive of getting 15 16 L7 the hold neleased as soon as possible. a 18 19 point And do you know any othen Senatons had weighed in at this ? A I 20 if understood that Senaton Pontman aLso was intenested -- f'm not 9th, 9th on 10th -- that 2t status of the secunity assistance, and that anound the time 22 sune 23 Members 24 the status of the secunity assistance and to tny to find the 25 fon the hold. the precise day, of I want to say Septemben Congness had opened an in the inquiny, possibly two inquinies, into UNCLASSIFIED neason 95 UNCLASSIFIED a Okay. Any othen Senators that you haven't identified? A Not to my knowledge. There pnobably were, but not that I 7 2 3 was awane a Okay. How did you know about Senaton Pontman's interest? A I had seen pness neponting that he was interested in the 4 5 6 status of the hold. a A 7 8 9 of. Do you know if any Senatons contacted the Vice Pnesident? Othen than back in July, Senaton Lankford and Senaton lohnson neaching out anound the time 10 I'm not 11 President. a T2 awane of of oun tnip to Poland, any othen Senators neaching out Since youn -- 13 folks that 1.4 appeanance hene, about 15 lnto wniting a letter, dinectly to the Vice have you had any discussions have been befone with any of the us, you know, befone or aften thein the content of what the committees ane looking ? 16 A t7 testimonies, Not about the content of these discussions, no. UNCLASSIFIED these 97 UNCLASSIFIED L [11:35 a.m.] BY MR. CASTOR: 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 a Okay. Outside youn lawyens, like who have you discussed youn testimony with? A No one. a Okay. When was the last time you spoke with Tim Monnison? A That's a good question. I'm tnying to nemember when he appeaned. Last week, night? 13 a He was here on Halloween? A Convenient. a I nememben that. A Okay. Befone then. I -- honestly, I don't necall pnecisely. I mean, I would see him on a fainly negulan basis fon t4 meetings. 9 10 11 t2 15 16 t7 18 a Okay. But you haven't spoken with A No. a -- Mn. Monnison -A No, not since then. 24 since Halloween? a A No. Yeah. a When is the last time you spoke with Colonel Vindman? A I saw him in the hallway yestenday. I had a meeting with him on last Fniday, r believe, wlth an" I Ambassadon to the United States, since he has a lange -- oun pontfolios ovenlap. And 25 so we panticipated 19 20 2L 22 23 in a meeting togethen with the I UNCLASSIFIED Ambassadon. 98 UNCLASSIFIED A Okay. And what do you nememben ColoneI Vindman telling you I 2 at that A a A 3 4 5 6 policy 8 10 77 72 13 L4 15 16 77 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 - and after the meeting? About? About anything. We11, that meeting, obviously, we wene focusing on oun U.S. - a Right. A -- towandt l 7 9 meeting on befone the meeting, the nefonms in the I democnacy. So it and looking at what next steps might be Govennment towards becoming a stnongen was veny focused on that. a Did Colonel Vindman tell you anything about his testimony? A He did not, no. a Okay. Did he tell you that he mentioned your name duning his testimony? A He told me that he had been asked, but we did not discuss the testimony beyond that. a Okay. So what exactly did he tell you? A He said that he had been asked who was on the call and that my name was mentioned, but that was it. a Okay. And he affirmatively bnought that up to you? A Yes. a Was that in the context of -- like what was that in the context of? A I think he just wanted me to be awane that my name had been introduced. That was it. We didn't discuss the testimony beyond TINCLASSIFIED 99 UNCLASSIFIED 1 that. a Okay. At that point, did he know that you wene scheduled 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 LL L2 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 to come in? A I don't believe so. I don't know that any of us wene awane of who was going to be pant of this pnocess. a Okay. So as of last Fniday, you didn't know that you wene coming No, in A today? As of last I got called by the committee last Fniday evening, so not befone then. a That was the first time? Being in the minority -A Sune. a -- we'ne not pant of the scheduling pnocess A Not befone then, no. a A a among other pnocesses. Noted. So you found out on Fniday night that the committee had intenest in speaking with A an you? Connect. 20 a Okay. And when you saw CoIoneI vindman at the I meeting, that was the finst time you'd talked to him since he had 2L testified 19 22 23 24 25 ? A I believe so, yes. Yeah. a Okay. And he mentioned to you that he had identified - - he'd been asked and A identified youn name as being on the caII? Connect. UNCLASSIFIED 100 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 72 13 L4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 zt 22 23 24 25 Q And did he say anything else to you, on is that -A No, we didn't talk about it funther. I was advised not to. Q Okay. Did he give you any recommendations, Iike you should get a lawyen, anYthing of that sont? A I had already netained counsel well before then, so -Q Okay. Because you had an expectation the committees might be intenested in youn testimonY? A I netained counsel in eanly Octoben thinking that it up may come at some Point. a And I'm not tnying to get into any -A No, undenstood. a -- attonney-client privilege matters. That's not what we're seeking hene. A No. It MR. CASToR: sune -- was well befone then. Okay. I want to make is almost uP, to say thank you fon your anything? MR. MEADOWS: Ms. senvice. Yeah, these to Befone oun time talilliams, I want tnying times, and it's not fun fon ane anybody us. And so -MS. I^JILLIAVIS: It's a long pnocess. come hene, even I MR. MEADOWS: And so want to thank you fon youn senvice. I want to clanify two things: I believe you said that it was actually on the pnesident's schedule to go to Warsaw, and that was canceled, and the Vice Pnesident took his p1ace. MS. WILLIAVIS: That ' Is that s conrect. UNCLASSIFIED connect? 101 UNCLASSIFIED MR. MEADOWS: And 1 2 it 3 pnepping people. sounds like then in all of youn prep fon the Vice Pnesident, you'ne a pretty thonough individual when Is that I it comes to conrect? do my best, sin. 4 MS. WILLIAvIS: 5 MR. MEADOWS: A11 night. So in all of youn PreP, as it relates 6 to the aid, the Uknainian aid that this whole 7 to fold into, the aid 8 now spending 9 even any bniefing with the Vice Pnesident impeachment process seems and seven wonds on a phone tnanscnipt that we'ne unbellevable time and effont, but in any of that, was there to that says, by the way, you bning up these investigations, on you need 10 know, you need 11 cautious about the investigations, one way on the othen? to be not At A]1. t2 MS. WILLIAIVIS: No, 13 MR. MEADOWS: And so as someone who's advising the Vice Pnesident L4 of the United States, would it 15 any 20L6, Bunisma, Biden, was not a considenation 16 pnionity for the Vice Pnesident of the United States as you t7 him fon his meeting with Pnesident Zelensky? be fain to say that investigations into that was a top pnepped That,s connect. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: 19 MR. MEADOWS: And so, as we go even furthen, in tenms of the 2L is, due-outs, thene was no due-out that would suggest that thene had to be any 22 conditionality to neleasing the aid, othen than what Ambassadon Bo1ton 23 bnought up 24 I 20 25 neadouts and, in in tenms tenms of what I think youn nomenclatune of real aggnessive anticonnuption measunes that in late August. Is that connect? MS. WILLIAMS: I guess I would say, I did not knowthe guess happened UNCLASSIFIED motivation L02 UNCLASSIFIED 1 behind the hold in the finst 2 MR. MEADOWS: Right. 3 MS. WILLIAvIS: So I was p1ace. not aware of any conditionality on what 4 the neason fon the hold was, and what that might be dependent on. 5 only laten on thnough this pnocess that I undenstand there 6 conversations happening outside 7 official diplomatic channels. 8 MR. MEADOWS: And 9 MS. WILLIAvIS: Pness neponting. -- of 11 MS. WILLIAVIS: t2 MR. MEADOWS: So evenything L4 15 16 what we would considen that you know about any nefarious what the actual neason fon the hold was. MR. MEADOWS: Okay. And so, I Ambassadon Bo1ton, 18 I think it's 19 anticonruption measures. Is that accunate? 22 had a gneat meeting been descnibed MS. t^JILLIAIvIS: That to is the end of with Pnesident Zelensky. August, says, Listen, 27 channels? That's cornect, and we had no undenstanding of L7 20 be CONNCCI. actually came thnough pness reponts, no official MS. WILLIAvIS: to open-sounce pness neponting? MR. MEADOWS: punpose wene othen you've learned that thnough -- 10 13 It's us they wene up what he conveyed alI night passing these to the Vice Pnesident in the pne-bnief, connect. MR. MEADOWS: And so a veny positive the Vice Pnesident of the United States has a 23 Bolton. 24 positive meeting with Pnesident Zelensky 25 mutual nespect and desine Then message fnom Ambassadon to wonk whene they talk togethen. Is that UNCLASSIFIED veny about thein connect? 103 UNCLASSIFIED . WI LLIA\4S : That ' s conrect 1 MS 2 MR. MEADOWS: So a . positive meeting, a positive meeting, a phone 3 ca11, and then intenvention fnom at least one on two Senatons, 4 Senaton Johnson and Senaton Pontman. I Is that connect? not involved -- 5 MS. WILLIAVIS: 6 MR. MEADOWS: And Lankfond, Senator Lankfond, 7 I guess, thnee diffenent MS. WILLIAvIS: 8 9 was I guess I was awane that those Senatons had expressed I wasn't pnivy to what those discussions were. And so, in tenms of a due-out, would you -- is it intenest in the issue. MR. MEADOWS: 10 belief, youn swonn testimony hene today, that your belief that L7 youn L2 Vice President Pence would give a favorable necommendation to the 13 Pnesident of the United States to L4 MS. t^JILLIAVIS: 15 MR. MEADOWS: 16 MS. WILLIAVIS: Thank 17 THE CHAIRMAN: 18 nesume 19 I at t2:3O. was nelease the aid and move fonwand? YCS. I thank you. I yield you, sin. Okay. We ane back. in Why don't we take recess. Recess. ] UNCLASSIFIED oun lunch break now and L04 UNCLASSIFIED I It2:35 p.m. l 2 THE CHAIRIvIAN: 3 Ms. Wi11iams, Okay. Let's go back on the necord. I just had a couple followup questions befone I give 4 it 5 questions In nesponse to some of the fnom minonity counsel, you descnibed the efforts made to 5 advance a potential Vice Pnesidential 7 effont to see if back to . Mn. Noble on Mn. Goldman. WI LIAVIS : 9 THE CHAIRMAN: L . Yes, sin . I take it once the message was passed down that Uh - MS the available and the like? nooms wene 8 visit to the inaugunation, huh 10 the Pnesident did not want the Vice President to attend, ohy further 11 effont to make those annangements also t2 MS. WILLIAVIS: That 13 THE CHAIRIvIAN: The 14 15 L6 L7 ' Vice Pnesident wasn't going to countenmand the THE CHAIRMAN: inaugunatlon Okay. And you neven leanned of mind on the Vice want him to? the was neason fon the Pnesident's attending the ? 20 MS. WILLIAVIS: No, sin. 2t THE CHAIRMAN: 25 didn't I can't speak fon the Vice Pnesident, but I instnucted to stop the trip planning at that point. 19 24 an end? MS. WILLIAMS: Pnesident's change 23 to s connect. Pnesident and go even though the Pnesident 18 22 came This is no slun on the Secretary of Enengy, but I think you said one of the noles of the Vice Pnesident is to high-Ieve1 meetings that the Pnesident cannot attend? MS. WILLIAVIS: Yes, sir. THE CHAIRIvIAN: And that's attend viewed with a centain status by foneign UNCLASSIFIED 105 UNCLASSIFIED L govennments having a Vice Pnesidential 2 Pnesident but maybe numben two? I believe so. 3 MS. WILLIAMS: 4 THE CHAIRMAN: And 5 somewhene 6 this . the decision to send the Vice Pnesident WI LLIAvIS : his That ' s night MS 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, 10 LL t2 13 74 15 16 MS . WI LLIAVIS : That ' s correct along made in . that's lmpontant, both in tenms of assuning Uknainians that the United States has its back, but also in detenning Russian aggnession, is it not? the same might be said for the status of a Pnesidential on Vice Presidential visit to an inaugunation? MS. WILLIAVIS: Connect. I think you said it was a big meeting. It was a six-plus-six. Is that night? at the meeting in THE CHAIRMAN: Now, . WI LLIAIvIS: That 23 MS 24 THE CHAIRMAN: And 25 this is THE CHAIRMAN: And THE CHAIRIvIAN: And 22 and is it's not just getting militany assistance that's impontant, it's the fact that it's coming fnom the United States that's also impontant. Is that night? 18 2L I think you mentioned -- Warsaw MS. WILLIAVIS: Yes. 20 . similan lines, that one of the points that Pnesident Zelensky 77 19 fon inaugunation? 7 9 in Uknaine as a signal of U.S. suppont would be viewed new Pnesident, visit, not as good as the ' Wansaw, s night . that means that thene wene essentially six U.S. pnincipals and six staff people behind UNCLASSIFIED them? 106 UNCLASSIFTED MS. WILLIAvIS: Connect, and then 1 2 of the 4 room, so Pnesident Zelensky and the Vice President. THE CHAIRIvIAN: 3 I see. And then on the Ukrainian side of the table, they would have thein own six-plus-six? 5 MS. WILLIAVIS: Correct. 6 THE CHAIRIvIAN: So 7 the two pnincipals in the front people at that thene would be essentially around two dozen meeting? 8 MS. WILLIAVIS: That 9 THE CHAIRMAN: And , s right . so in this meeting with two dozen people, the 10 Vice Pnesident did not bning up what the Pnesident said on the July TL phone L2 the Bidens, Bunisma, or call in tenms of the Pnesident's desine fon investigations of 2OL6? 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Connect, he 74 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, did not naise that. you've seen, I'm sune, a pness nepont about 15 what Ambassador Sondland said happened just aften L6 you not? I've L7 MS. WILLIAVIS: 18 THE CHAIRIvIAN: And seen if that meeting. Have the pness neponts, yes. affidavit is theneaften, stil1 Ambassador Sondland's new 19 accurate and he spoke with Mn. Yenmak immediately 20 at the 21 assistance was tied to doing these investigations, that would have 22 influence on how Uknaine would penceive what the Vice Pnesident 23 when he was 24 25 same meeting, but in a pu1I-aside, talking about connuption. MS. WILLIAVIS: convensation I 25 would imagine and conveyed Would it that militany meant not? that they would take that into account, but obviously, I can't UNCLASSIFIED speak an fon the L07 UNCLASSIFIED t Uknainians on how they would intenpnet that. THE CHAIRMAN: 2 But you would centainly expect 3 to President 4 would veny quickly convey 5 the pnivate discussion with 6 theneaften? I top adviser a in on the Vice Pnesidential Zelensky, who sat to that meeting, Pnesident Zelensky what he had heand in Ambassadon Sondland immediately would imagine so. 7 MS. WILLIAvIS: 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, I think you said that, in anticipation fon 9 the Vice Pnesident's calI to congnatulate Pnesident Zelensky on his 10 inaugunation, which followed Pnesident Trump's caII, that you included 1.1 the caII recond of Pnesident Tnump's caII for the Vice President? That's connect. L2 MS. WILLIA\4S: 13 THE CHAIRMAN: And I think you said that aften the July 25 call t4 between Pnesident Trump and Pnesident Zelensky you also included 15 call in the Vice Pnesident's daily bniefing book? MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, 16 t7 necond July in his daily briefing book that diligent in neading his Pnesidential Pnesident was quite 20 Pnesidential daily bniefing books. MS. WILLIAVIS: He 22 I've 23 he does, but 24 25 day, on othen testimony that the Vice 19 27 same 25. THE CHAIRIT{AN: And we heard 18 that following But in on Vice youn expenience as well? I have to admit, his pnocess of neading them. I I can't confirm if up on that receives them eveny evening, so neven pensonally witnessed THE CHAIRMAN: Was -- pnesume he neads every item eveny day. youn convensations with the Vice Pnesident the bniefing materials that you give him, does he seem UNCLASSIFIED 108 UNCLASSIFTED L familian with what you had bniefed him in wniting? MS. WILLIAIvIS: Genenally, 2 but I don't see him on a daily basis, hand fon me to be veny pnecise it's 3 so 4 have read each night. in terms of what items he will THE CHAIRIvIAN: We1I, even though you 5 don't see him on a daily 6 basis, on the opportunities you do see him and you discuss things that 7 you briefed him about 8 pnovided him, does he not? in wniting, he seems familian with MS. WILLIAIVIS: Yes, siN. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: And 10 in in the briefing,book pnion to his visit with 77 Pnesident Zelensky 72 in that bniefing book as well? MS. 13 L4 WILLIAvIS: I don't believe THE CHAIRMAN: So around awane it was. We been don't normally include his familianity with the call would have the time it occurned of that fnom the oniginal briefing book? the only oppontunity that I'm I think you testified that Senaton lohnson tnying to neach the Vice Pnesident. About when did -- 20 was 21 that effont when was made? MS. WILLIAvIS: I neceived an email fnom my Vice President's 23 office colleague 24 of Senator lohnson's staff 25 believe it been he would have had that tnanscnipt. THE CHAIRMAN: Now, 19 22 the July 25 call necond have MS. WILLIAVIS: That would have been L7 18 Wansaw, would call tnanscripts in tnip bniefing books. 15 16 what you was who covens legislative affains connecting me with one membens just before we left fon Wansaw, I August 3O, on that Fniday, and we depanted that Satunday. UNCLASSIFIED 109 UNCLASSIFIED 1 It may have even been THE CHAIRMAN: So 2 3 that Satunday, either August 30th on 31st. was tnying to neach WILLIAMS: August 30th on 31st was when Senaton lohnson the Vice Pnesident? undenstanding fnom Senaton Johnson's 4 MS. 5 that the 6 Pnesident, eithen befone the Vice Pnesident went to 7 Uknaine 8 Pnesident had met with Zelensky 9 was My to Senaton was looking on, have a phone staff call with the Vice Wansaw to talk about if that wasn't possible, possibly night aften the Vice that Sunday because Senaton lohnson it tnaveling out to Kyiv the following week. And so, to compane would be oppontunity fon them lt convey what he had heand fnom Zelensky before Senaton Johnson 72 Zelensky. THE CHAIRMAN: Ane you anticle, dated Octoben 4, in which 15 lournal that 16 involving a t7 elections 18 that the Pnesident 19 with that anticle? Senaton lohnson Ambassadon Sondland had descnibed commitment by Kyiv to told to The WaII Stneet him a quid pro quo pnobe mattens nelated to U. S. the status of neanly $400 million in U.5. aid to Uknaine had ondened to be held up in July? Ane you familian I'm not, no. No, sin. 20 MS. WILLIAVIS: 2t THE CHAIRMAN: The anticle indicates that the 22 this 23 the subject which Senator 24 Pnesident 25 saw familian with The WaIl Street Journal L4 and an notes and fon the Vice Pnesident to 10 13 was by Ambassadon Sondland in August. Senaton was Do you know whethen Johnson sought to told this was discuss with the Vice ? MS. WILLIAVIS: I don't know specifically. UNCI,ASSIFIED What I undenstood 110 UNCLASSIFIED staff that the Senaton wanted to 1 fnom Senaton lohnson's 2 discuss the status of secunity assistance, so I took that to 3 status of the 4 that. THE 5 : A11 night . Mn. Noble 7 a Thank you, Mn. Chainman. 8 You testified eanlien that 10 Colonel Vindman. Is that A That's cornect. 72 a detail than . you finst leanned that thene had been And then on night? July 9 you had the meeting in General Kellogg's office with the Uknainian National Secunity Advison A a t4 15 15 any more the a hold placed on the Uknaine assistance on July 3 in the email from tl 13 -- mean BY MR. NOBLE: 5 9 was But I didn't know what hold. CHAIRIVIAN memben Danylyuk? Connect. So, at that point, you were aware that thene had been this freeze placed on the Uknainian assistance. Is that night? A At that point? a Yes, as of July 9. A I had seen -- connect. I L7 18 19 had decided on had conveyed mean, I to the State had seen the update that Department that they were 20 OMB 2t not cleaning these panticulan congnessional notifications. 22 believe 23 in 24 motivation 25 clearing the assistance, yes. it tenms was clear, even as of July 9, what exactly I don't was behind that this a, you know, long-tenm hold on what was the behind it. But I was awane that thene was a pnoblem with of was UNCLASSIFIED 111 UNCLASS]FIED t THE CHAIRIvIAN: And I apologize, Counsel. Thene wene a couple I'd forgotten I wanted to ask just to follow up on the 2 othen questions 3 questioning by minonity counsel. I 4 take it fnom what you said eanlien that in terms of Ambassadon 5 Sondland's convensation with Mn. Yenmak on the sidelines of the 6 meeting between Pnesident Zelensky and Vice Pnesident Pence, 7 wene 8 the conditioning militany aid on the investigations that 9 pneviously by the Pnesident out of the loop on any discussion MS. WILLIAMS: 10 11 I was not awane this descnibed in 13 seen L4 innegulan 15 message fnom 16 to do. Is that night? tnack. you Ambassadon Sondland had about wene descnibed I was not present at that meeting, and had taken place. you THE CHAIRMAN: And wene t2 that in the July 25 call? Connect. that it Wansaw -- and so you had vanious ways, aS an You were the -- official you may have tnack and an in the official track hearing the official the Vice Pnesident of what the United States wanted Uknaine t7 MS. WILLIAVIS: Correct 18 THE CHAIRMAN: . But in terms of the unofficial tnack nepnesented that conversation on the sideline 19 by 20 Mn. Yenmak, you wene not pant 27 MS. WILLIAvIS: No, sin. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: And in between Ambassadon Sondland and of that innegulan tnack? tenms of effonts by those in that irnegulan to commit to the investigations 23 tnack to get Pnesident Zelensky 24 Pnesident descnibed in that July 25 phone ca11, you wene not pnivy to 25 those convensations eithen, not part of that tnack? UNCLASSIFIED the 712 UNCLASSIFIED 1 MS. WILLIAVIS: No, sin. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: So effonts to get Ambassador -- well, efforts to public commitment to punsue these two 3 get Pnesident Zelensky to 4 investigations into the Bidens 5 theony about 2Ot6, pnion to getting the hJhite House meeting, you wene 6 not pant of those discussions, you were out of that loop as well? make a 7 MS. WILLIAVIS: Connect. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: You 9 10 Vo1ken on Ambassadon to and Burisma and this debunked conspinacy of effonts that Ambassadon Sondland wene making to get Pnesident Zelensky weren't awane announce these investigations? 1t MS. WILLIAVIS: No, sin. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: And 13 Ambassadon Sondland nor anyone 14 about effonts to get Pnesident Zelensky to go on CNN, even as the aid 15 was 16 Tnump wanted? take MS. WILLIAvIS: No, 18 THE CHAIRIVIAN: si.r, I a So going back to that July had you had any discussions 22 the Uknaine assistance? 25 was not awane of those effonts. OKay. MN. NOblE. 27 24 else brought you into thein confidence BY MR. NOBLE: 19 23 it that neithen Ambassadon Volker non withheld to publicly announce these investigations that Pnesident 17 20 I 9 meeting, pnion to that meeting, with Genenal Kellogg about the fneeze on A I don't believe so, because, again, when I leanned about it on July 3, it was a veny bnief panagnaph, and it wasn't entirely clean what mone to the stony thene was. So I don't believe I naised it to UNCLASSIFIED 113 UNCLASSIFIED L General Kellogg's attention at that panticulan time. 6 I believe I did naise it with him fon his awaneness befone the JuIy 9 meeting just in penson. Actually, yes, I did. I necalI now. As I was pnepaning him fon that meeting, I did pnovide some briefing matenials on a nange of, you know, policy mattens that we expected Danylyuk would naise. And I believe I bniefed him venbally iust fon 7 his 8 in 2 3 4 5 awaneness about case a 9 10 it this issue with OMB holding the assistance just came up. Why did you think it might come up in the meeting with Danylyuk? A I 11 had no neason to believe that the Ukrainians t2 of it at that time, but I just 13 in wanted Genenal Kellogg to were awane be awane just case. a In case it did come up? A Connect a To youn knowledge, was when you briefed General Kellogg about 74 15 16 L7 the fneeze, based on Vindman's email, was that the finst time that 18 was leanning 19 pneviously he that a freeze had been placed, on do you think he was awane? 2T A I don't neal1y necall his neaction, to be honest, so I can't neaIly say one way on the othen whethen it was the finst time he was 22 heaning 23 a 20 of the infonmation on not. And 24 about that 25 that was did you and Genenal Kellogg have a substantive discussion topic, on was it just kind of one way, you bniefed it? UNCLASSIFIED him and rL4 UNCLASSIFIED A It 1 it was one was a fainly bnief pne-bnief, not a lengthy convensation about it. 2 so 3 that point, this was way. It to speak, And, again, even at 7 it, it still wasn't entirely clean what was behind the issue, whethen it was still -- OMB's nationale, I had leanned, was to detenmine whethen the aid was still in line with administnation pnionities. But I stilI had not seen any clanification of what exactly that meant, and if this was 8 going 4 5 5 9 was about a week to be a long-tenm pnocess. a And I believe you aften I so testified -- had finst learned of that July 9 and duning 10 meeting, I'm assuming this topic did not come up with the Uknainians, 11 the freeze? 13 A Connect, it did not come up. a I believe you testified that OMB was tasked with doing some L4 kind of policy neview, on OMB said that there was going to be a policy 15 neview T2 16 of the assistance A pnovided In the bnief update that it I to Uknaine. Is that night? had seen on July 3, f don't necall descnibed. But what I necall t7 pnecisely 18 was conveying 19 to continue holding these congnessional notifications 20 neview to how was to NSC make sune was State Depantment that they wene told by OMB that they were going that the assistbnce was pending funthen in line with administnation 23 pnionities. It was not specific in that shont panagnaph what exactly that neview would entail. a And did you get any mone color on that at the July 23 PCC 24 meeting 25 A 2L 22 that you attended? Not nealIy. The OMB nepnesentative UNCLASSIFIED at that meeting 115 UNCLASSIFIED essentially just 2 to the gnoup that the guidance they had neceived fnom the White House chief of staff was to continue to hold 3 the assistance without funthen explanation. t a 4 conveyed But the unanimous view of all the agencies that panticipated 5 in the PCC was that the hold should be lifted 6 to Uknaine? A That's cornect. a Okay. Now, I believe 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 that suggested that 15 alneady 2L 22 23 24 25 that line you know, bnoad view But at that point in time, hadn't the Depantment of Defense and A Yes, they did. a Yeah. I mean, Ukraine had been invaded by Russia. They 18 20 You remember certified that the assistance was, in fact, effective should be pnovided to Uknaine? t7 19 Pnesident Tnump may have been concenned about, of questioning? A I necall we discussed Pnesident Tnump'S, on the effectiveness of foneign aid. a the aid should flow Mn. Caston asked you some questions 1ike, a netunn on investment fon these funds. L4 L6 and litenally fighting a hot wan against Russia, and this military assistance was going dinectly to help Uknaine fight the Russians. fsn't that accunate? A Connect. And DOD also made the point that this assistance primanily goes to U.S. defense contnacting companies to implement. wene a So the money was not only benefiting Uknaine, but indinectly benefiting U.S. companies, which is also a UNCLASSIFIED it was also concenn of 116 UNCLASSlFIED L President Trump, connect? A 2 3 That was a message that DOD was conveying to help make thein point. a 4 And so eveny this -- basically, eveny dolIan Uknaine assistance, the U.S. is that is being seeing returns to spent both the 5 on 6 national security of Uknaine, the national security of the United 7 States, and to essentially the pockets of defense contnactons? 8 9 10 LL L2 A a That was centainly DOD's point So penspective that seems of view. like a pnetty good investment fnom youn ? A I believe so. a And until this fneeze that kind of came out of the bIue, fnom 13 youn penspective, on t4 assistance 15 A I to July 3, Pnesident Uknaine, didn't Tnump had pneviously supponted he? believe that Pnesident Tnump had been 16 overall U.S.-Uknaine foneign policy. I don't 17 specific insight into his particular views 18 pen se. suppontive know that I of our had any on the secunity assistance 20 a But, again, all of the agencies at that point in time, as of Ju1y, all these intenagency meetings that minonity counsel asked 21 you about, the view was unanimous that the aid should be pnovided to 22 Uknaine 19 ? 23 A 24 holding 25 a Connect, except fon OMB's clanification on why they wene it. And that view neven changed, connect? UNCLASSIFIED Lt7 UNCLASSIFTED A a 1 2 No, sir. Did you neceive any instnuction fnom Vice Pnesident 3 on General Kellogg about the position that you should take 4 intenagency meetings that you panticipated A 5 No, I did not. I in? Pence in the Did you discuss that? pnepaned Genenal Kellogg for his 6 panticipation in the Deputies Committee meeting on JuLy 26' but prion 7 to that, 8 Genenal Kellogg aftenwards. I was kind of panticipating at my own level and then bniefing LL a Can you teII us about how you pnepped Genenal KeIIogg fon the -- was that the deputies' meeting? A That's night. I pnepaned some talking points fon Genenal 72 Kellogg's panticipation in the TuLy 26 Deputies Committee meeting 13 pnovided him some backgnound on how the pnevious meetings, the sub-PCC L4 and 15 and whene 9 10 the a 16 L7 18 19 And of the status of the discussion did he neact in any way to youn bniefing, youn ? A He seemed a And ane you awane whethen Vice Pnesident Pence supponted position at that A duning to that agnee the that time? I'm not aware because we didn't have a specific convensation that timeframe about it. a 24 25 he was awane that, you know, OVP should take position to also suppont the lifting of the fneeze. 22 23 that the intenagency stood on the issue of secunity assistance. prepanation 20 2t PCC, had gone so and Ane you familian with a Pnesidential decision was dated on on about August L5 about UNCLASSIFIED memonandum lifting the fneeze on UNCLASSTFIED L 118 secunity assistance? 16 A I don't believe so, no. a Okay. So you don't necall even neceiving a copy of that? A I can't say that I didn't neceive a copy in my email traffic at one point. I took some leave around that timefname, so I may have missed it. a When did you take leave? A Around that timeframe, in mid-August. a Yeah. I mean, that's a usual time of yean -A Yeah. Apologies if I missed it, but, yeah. a No wonnies. But I was just -- my question was going to be if you knew whethen Genenal Kellogg on Vice Pnesident Pence even got a copy of that memonandum, and whethen they concunned in it or Vice Pnesident specifically concunned in it? A I don't know. I just don't know. a Okay. Ane you familian with -- you may have been on leave, t7 but are you familian with a meeting that the Pnesident had with advisens 18 at Bedminsten in 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 72 13 1,4 15 20 2t 22 24 25 lensey on August 16? A I'm not awane of that meeting, no. a 0n whether Vice Pnesident Pence attended that meeting? A I'm not awane. He may have, but I don't necall. a Ane you familian with anothen PCC meeting that was held on 19 23 New July 31? A Yes. I was in that meeting. a Okay. Can you tell us what happened in that meeting? UNCLASSIFIED 0r 119 UNCLASSIFIED 5 -- what was A I'I1 tny. a What was the purpose of that meeting? Was it focused on Uknaine, on was it about something else? A It was a Ukraine PCC, and as I recall, it was focused on kind 6 of the, quote/unquote, nonmal nange of 7 Uknaine 8 economic 9 stood. 1 2 3 4 1et's maybe policy. But 10 So we discussed effonts on I compnise oun the secunity tnack, on the necall that because befone that, the the Deputies 12 nesulted 13 necommended week befone, you know, Committee meeting had taken place and in the same conclusion that all essentially agencies except fon had OMB had that the hold be lifted. The next step in that process, there needed to Pnincipals Committee meeting, and that was 16 PCC 17 security assistance ho1d, 18 to talking about the nonmal agenda items. the following week thene was no and so be a PC, still pending. 15 met that tnack, and kind of the assistance tnack and whene all those 11 L4 agenda items a So when the resolution to the issue of the essentially, the gnoup just went back 19 essentially, the secunity assistance fneeze was the elephant in the noom that we just 20 skipped oven, because 2L towands a Pnincipals Committee meeting. a Okay. 22 So 23 JuIy 31 PCC meeting 24 night 25 that was sti1l tnying to move forward wonking in the JuIy 23 PCC, the JuIy -- I 26 deputies, on the believe you panticipated ? A And Yes, sin. UNCLASSIFIED in all of those, 720 UNCLASSIFIED a 1 2 Did the issue of the legality of the hold even come up? anybody even naise questions about whethen this Did was 1ega1 on not? 4 actually. I think it may have been in the 31st meeting. I can't recall if it was the 23rd on the 31st, but there wene 5 discussions -- 3 A MR. SWALWELL: Counsel, can we 6 7 Yes, just get the dates on that, just which month? 0h, July. 8 MR. NOBLE: 9 MS. WILLIAVIS: 0h, sorny. JuIy. 10 MR. SWALWELL: lust L7 MS. WILLIAMS: fon the necord, thanks. JuIy 23 or JuIy 31, both at the PCC IeveI, thene 13 -- raised I believe both by State Depantment and DOD, essentially trying to wonk out if there was no lifting of the t4 hold, and we wene getting closen to the end of the fiscal yean, how 15 those agencies would need to go back to Congress to nemedy the situation 16 with unspent funds, and what would be the lega1 t7 nequesting a nescission of those funds on, you know, what steps would 18 need 72 wene discussions about to be taken to addness that befone necounse fon eithen the end of the fiscal yean. BY MR. NOBLE: 19 2L A And ane you awane that ultimately after the fneeze was lifted, on Septemben 11, DOD did have to come back to Congress and 22 Congness 23 to 20 24 25 did have to write an amendment to effectively al1ow the funds be spent aften the Septemben 30 deadline? A I was not awane of that, but I wasn't tnacking at that time. UNCLASSIFIED it that closely t27 UNCLASSIFIED a 7 Duning this of time, counse was being considered 3 discussions 4 Pnesident should on could be doing A the secunity assistance hold in the intenagency, did you have funthen with Genenal Ketlogg about what the Office of the Vice 2 5 when No to tny to get the fneeze lifted? specific discussions othen than my bniefing him befone 6 the Deputies Committee meeting on JuLy 26, which would have been his 7 pnimany oppontunity 8 the 9 August, but after the Deputies Committee meeting, since no meeting was 10 LL same if scheduled, of engagement on that issue. I would have done thene had been a Pnincipals Committee meeting sometime in I didn't a Okay. specific convensation with him about it. have a How in the eanly part of August, about t2 stanted pneparing fon the 13 assistance came up again -- Wansaw befone you meeting, when I know the secunity L4 A 15 a -- did you have any funthen convensations with Genenal 16 Right. KeIIogg on anybody else at OVP about what ane you going to do about 21 this hold that was on -- hold in place? A No specific convensations. I was kind of tnacking the pnocess to see if a Pnincipals Committee meeting would be scheduled at some point. I have to say also duning the timefname of the month of August, we wene stitl pnepaning fon the Vice Pnesident's trip to 22 Eunope, L7 18 19 20 23 24 25 to the U.K., Ineland, and lce1and, so that neaIly consumed lot of my time. So I was awane of the pending issue, it myself on a day-to-day basis. but not wonking a Okay. Are you aware of whethen the Uknainians UNCLASSIFIED a leanned of 722 UNCLASSIFIED L the hold pnion to 2 August it becoming public thnough that Politico anticle on 28? 7 A I'm not aware. a One way on the othen? A One way on the othen. a So I do want to ask some mone questions about the JuIy 25 ca1l, but it might make sense just to kind of finish with Wansaw and 8 the secunity assistance. 3 4 5 5 17 A Sune. a In pnepaning fon the bilat between Vice President Pence and Pnesident Zelensky, I believe you testified that the Vice Pnesident t2 had asked 13 that night? 9 10 A That's connect. a And that Genenal Kellogg tasked you to gathen infonmation 14 15 16 fon an update on the hold on the secunity assistance. Is and an update fon the Vice Pnesident? A a L7 18 Connect. Can you explain to us what you did to get the update that 24 to Genenal Kellogg and the Vice Pnesident? A Sure. I had seen a necent similan update pnepaned by Colonel Vindman, my NSC colleague, that nea11y laid out the status of the secunity assistance and what would be the necessany timings in onden to get the assistance implemented by the end of the fiscal yean, how much was being he1d, just neally the basics of whene it stood. So I 25 used 19 20 2L 22 23 was pnovided that infonmation to cnaft an update fon Genenal Kellogg UNCLASSIFIED to pnovide 123 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 zo 2t 22 23 24 2s to the Vice Pnesident. Q And how fan in advance of the Septemben 1st bilat did you pnovide the update? A I is was asked August 30, so it to pnovide was that on that Fniday, which I believe -- Q Right befone? night befone, because we only found out about the tnip A the day befone that. in the counse of gathening this infonmation, wene you able to detenmine why the hold had been put in place and any insight into whethen on not it was going to be lifted? Q And 3. I was still not awane of what the motivation behind the hold was, but I knew that A At that point, it Genenal Kellogg was also of the hold since he had panticipated awane in the JuLy 26 Deputies Committee meeting, and change in the status oven going to funding, what I the counse of August. that -- the issue of why in how much July had been held since was my update. It And I So the timeline looking like it any to -- if it was pnovide. believe you testified that you anticipated that public with the Vice Pnesident A Cornect. of just focused on Pnesident Zelensky would naise the issue of the hold aften the Vice Pnesident on awane I did not address was nea}ly be neleased, and, you know, what would a okay. wasn't how and that you it had become and others may have pnepped to nespond. Is that right? Ambassadon Bolton neally took the lead in that pne-bnief conversation night befone the meeting with Pnesident UNCLASSIFIED 724 UNCLASSIFIED just seen Zelensky a few days pnion. Zelensky, since he had 2 believe his meeting was befone the Politico anticle had taken p1ace, 3 so Ambassadon Bolton had not discussed the hold with Zelensky, 4 undenstanding. But Ambassadon Bolton and the Vice Pnesident 5 But I L is my in the small gnoup 5 discussed how to nespond to that question. And obviously, that gnoup 7 did not 8 a decision might be made, but they talked about, you know, obviously 9 a decision would need have a pnecise answen to pnovide to Zelensky in tenms of to be made before the end of the fiscal when yean, -- a bit 10 which was veny quickly approaching. And they talked about 11 about, you know, what othen Eunopean countnies could do to help suppont 72 Uknaine 13 a t4 small in the meantime. Was thene any discussion of the neason fon the hold gnoup? A No. a No. f 15 in that 23 it seems a litt1e odd that thene's this hold in place that's been in place since July 3, as you said, the entine interagency supponts lifting the hold, the Vice Pnesident anticipates getting questions about it fnom Pnesident Zelensky, but thene's no discussion of like why ane we even doing this, like why is this hold in place? A That's connect. a Okay. Ane you familian with a finsthand on finst-penson 24 cable that Ambassadon Taylon dnafted and sent to Secnetany Pompeo, and 25 that 16 t7 18 19 20 27 22 we mean, believe was funthen distnibuted possibly to the White UNCLASSIFIED House? 725 UNCLASSIFIED 4 A I am. I've read the cabIe. a Wene you on the distnibution of the cable? A I received it, I believe, fnom State Department colleagues, but not on the oniginal distnibution, since it was a limited cable that 5 went stnaight 1 2 3 to the Secnetany's office. Do you nememben who sent it to you or how you got it? a A I don't necaII, to be honest. It might have been from NSC 6 7 8 colleagues. a Do you necall what the cable said? A It was a cable outlining Ambassadon Taylon's nationale 9 10 on 11 the impontance of oun U.S. secunity assistance to Ukraine, and why it 72 was impontant a A a 13 t4 15 16 fon the secunity assistance to continue to flow. Do you necall him saying that the hold was foIly? Yes. Do you necommendations necall anything else that he said, on any othen that he made? 23 A ft was a lengthy cabIe. I don't nemember it venbatim, but I thought it was a veny pensuasive case. a Do you nememben approximately when you neceived a copy of it, on obtained a copy of it? Was it befone the Wansaw bilat? A It was centainly befone the Wansaw tnip, because I necall neading it in the pnocess of pneparing fon the tnip. I don't recall the pnecise date, but it would have been anound that timefname, end 24 of L7 L8 19 20 2t 22 25 August. A Did you use it in pneparing the Vice Pnesident fon the bilat UNCLASSIFIED 726 UNCLASSIFIED 1 when you 2 to pulted togethen the matenials that Genenal Kellogg asked you 5 to the hold on the assistance? A I'm tnying to necall, because I found it a veny pensuasive cable, whethen I actually included it in the tnip book or not. I believe I, at least, provided a copy to Genenal Kellogg. I can't necall 5 fon centain whethen 3 4 do nelating a Okay. 7 8 I put So you it in the Vice Pnesident's tnip book on not. don't Pnesident Pence even saw know one way on that memo -- the othen whethen Vice on cable, nathen? L2 I found it significant, but I couldn't say definitively whethen I put it in the book or not. I may have. I just can't necall. A You've used wonds "significant, pensuasive." Why did you 13 think 9 10 L1 A I don't necalI. I Ambassadon Taylon's know memo was both significant and pensuasive? A I thought he Iaid out a very stnong case fon the effectiveness L4 15 of U.S. secunity assistance to Ukraine, as We've discussed befone, not 16 just L7 pnovides, but also the symbolic value of 18 cnitical 19 any signal 20 President Zelensky just as he was tnying to implement his neform agenda. 2t because a of the actual physical moment of in Uknainian politics And you said you necall thought the fneeze was 23 assessment as well? 25 A a it; and and that it that at this particulan security environment, that wavening U.S. suppont would send the wnong message to 22 24 and substantial suppont Ambassador Taylon -- the hold was foIIy. writing that Did you agnee with that Yes. And you said Pnesident Zelensky, when he met with Vice UNCLASSIFIED he t27 UNCLASSIFIED t Pnesident Pence, noted the symbolic va1ue, not 2 of the assistance, 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 just the monetany value night? A Right, he did. a Did he naise the symbolic value of a White House meeting on a meeting with President Tnump as well? A I'm tnying to necall. The neason I'm hesitating is I know he naised it in the public remanks he made with the Pnesident -- with at the meeting on the margins of the U.N. General Assembly not long aften, so I don't want to conflate the two. Pnesident Tnump I think he made a joke about 11 a A L2 a -- the fact that the White House meeting still 10 L3 L4 15 16 77 18 scheduled Yeah, He did. had not being ? A That we had fongotten to give him the dates fon the visit. a Yeah? A I just -- I can't recall specifically if he also raised it in the meeting with the Vice a But you would agnee Pnesident. that a meeting with the Pnesident at the 19 White House, on elsewhene, also canries symbolic value and could 20 valuable to the Ukrainians. Even though 27 va1ue, it may not have a be monetany 22 it's valuable in showing that the U. S. has the full - - on Uknaine has the fulI suppont of the United States, panticulanly when they're 23 battling 24 25 Russia? A Yes, I a Okay. agnee. Do you necaIl whethen -- UNCLASSIFIED going back to the 128 UNCLASSIFIED 6 -- Ambassadon Bolton ever raised the cable in the pne-bnief fon the Vice Pnesident in Wansaw? A No, I don't believe he did, not specifically. The topic was discussed, but I don't believe thene was reference to the cabIe. a Okay. So I think I want to go back to the July 25 caII, and I know you wene asked questions about this fnom minonity counsel but 7 I had a few othens. Finst, on the issue of Bunisma, the company coming 8 up, does the wond "Bunisma" actually appear in youn notes that 9 neviewed necently? 1. 2 3 4 5 cable A a 10 11 t2 Yes. A a 74 wouldn't have wnitten that down if So you duning the 13 cal}. Is that Do you necall whethen it it Do youn notes say one way on who 20 2L 22 23 24 25 In }ooking again at raised the MEMCON was Pnesident Tnump who said the my othen? notes, I believe it was Pnesident Tnump Bunisma. a Okay. 19 come up have been Pnesident Zelensky who said Bunisma? 16 18 hadn't Connect. Bunisma, on might A it night? 15 77 you that Do you know why the wond "Burisma "doesn't appean in was neleased publicly?" A I don't know why. a Okay. You wenen't involved in the editing pnocess, right? A No, sir. a And I believe you testified that pnion to the July 25 call, you had listened in on about a dozen othen calls UNCLASSIFIED between Pnesident Tnump 129 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 of state. Is that night? A Pnobably, around that numben. a Okay. Duning the July 25 calI, did you have any concenns and othen foneign heads 4 about the convensation that you heand between Pnesident Tnump and 5 Pnesident Zelensky? A I centainly 6 7 investigations 8 foneign leadens. 10 seemed unusual Tnump fon that JuIy 25 call? A 15 a Okay. t7 18 19 to othen discussions with that stnuck me as unusual. a Wene you involved in pneparing talking points fon Pnesident t4 16 as companed and so 72 13 that the mention of those specific a And why wene they unusual? A I believed those nefenences to be mone political in natune 9 11 noted advance A a No. Did you see the call package on talking points in of the call? No. So you panticipate just -- you leanned about the call and were asked to in it? 2L A Connect. a Okay. As you wene sitting in the Situation Room and you wene 22 taking notes, did you notice whethen othen people wene taking notes? 20 23 24 25 A Yes, othens wene taking notes as well. a Do you necall who took notes duning the call? A I believe evenybody in the noom was taking notes, yes. UNCLASSIFIED 130 UNCLASSIFIED a Okay. 7 Pnion to the July 25 caII, you said political 2 the investigations that you said 3 even heand Pnesident Tnump 4 Pnesident on the White House naise the issue 5 Uknainian senven? 6 A No. 7 a I 8 A No. mean, on the or wene anybody that these things, and unusual, had you else in the Office of the Vice of CrowdStnike or the DNC serven? 13 a Sothat was -- that stnuckyou as -- that was something new? A I had never heand the wond "CnowdStrike" befone, so that's why it stnuck me as noteworthy. a Okay. And what about the -- Pnesident Trump's naising the issue of the 2016 etection duning the call? Had there been discussion L4 in the Office of the Vice 15 knowledge, about concerns about possible Uknainian intenfenence 16 2OL6 9 10 LT L2 18 22 25 in the U.S. Pnesidential election? Had you heand anything -- A No. a What about investigating the Bidens? A I had neven heard discussion of that issue pnion to that phone 27 24 youn U.S. policy channel? 20 23 to A No, not to my knowledge. a Okay. So that wasn't anything that was part of the official 77 19 Pnesident on the White House, ca}l. a Okay. Do you necall what language President Zelensky speaking during the phone caII? UNCLASSIFIED was 131 UNCLASSIFIED t A 2 Russian. 3 that. 4 5 6 7 8 9 I don't. My understanding, he's more comfortable in But not speaking eithen Uknainian on Russian, I can't confinm a WelI, was he speaking English -A No. a -- the whole time? A No. The call was intenpneted on both sides. a So in youn othen calls with -- that you listened in on between Pnesident Tnump and foneign heads 10 you would descnibe as 11 issues been naised political of state, had any othen issues been naised, on domestic that political in those calls? 15 A No. a How did Genenal Kellogg react when Pnesident Tnump naised these political issues on the July 25 caII? A I didn't sense any reaction. We wene all neally just focused 16 on taking notes. L2 13 t4 20 a Did you notice a neaction fnom anyone in the room? A No. Honestly, we wene all pnetty busy taking notes in the moment, and we didn't have any follow-on convensations about it. a And I believe you testified you neven spoke to Genenal 2t KeIlogg about the t7 18 19 22 23 24 25 calI aftenwands? A I did not. a Did you speak to anybody about the fact that you found these -- the call unusual on that political issues had come up in a call with a foneign leaden? UNCLASSIFIED 732 UNCLASSIFIED A a L 2 No, I did not. Were you awane of whether Ambassadon Vo1ken on Ambassadon 3 Sondland had pnepaned the Uknainians to expect Pnesident Tnump 4 these political issues on the call? Were you awane to naise of that? 6 A I was not awane of that. a So you wenen't awane of like text messages and phone 7 conversations they were having with Andney Yenmak behind the scenes? 5 A No. a Okay. Wene you awane, aften the Wansaw bilat in September, 8 9 to have Pnesident Zelensky do a televised intenview duning 10 of 11 which he would announce the investigations t2 intenfenence, Burisma, on the Bidens? a proposal into Wene 2016 election you awane of that? 19 A No, I was not awane of that. a So there was no discussions of that in the official Uknaine policy -- policymaking channel? A No. a No, okay. Now, I believe minonity counsel had asked you that -- on maybe it was Mn. Meadows had asked about the fact that aften the bilat in 20 t,Jansaw, 27 I 22 you panticipate 13 t4 15 16 77 18 23 24 25 Vice Pnesident Pence was going to call Pnesident Trump to neIay, guess, the positive feedback he got fnom Pnesident Ze1ensky. Did in that phone call that night? A No, I didn't. a Okay. Do you know that a phone call did occun though between the Vice Pnesident and the Pnesident? UNCLASSIFIED 133 UNCLASSIFIED 3 A I believe he did have a phone call with the Pnesident, but, again, I don't know what topics they discussed. a Okay. But Pnesident Tnump didn't -- aften that phone call 4 did not immediately nelease the hold on the secunity assistance, did 5 he? 1 2 10 A No. a It wasn't until about t@ days Laten that the hold was lifted? A That's connect. a And I believe you testified that it was on Septemben 9, so 2 days befone the hold was lifted, that you became awane that the 11 Congress had launched an L2 Uknainian issues mone 6 7 8 9 investigation into the fneeze and the generally. Is that night? 15 A I believe so. I can't necall if it was the 9th or the 10th, but, y€sr it was befone the hold was lifted. a Was that investigation discussed within the Office of the 16 Vice Pnesident? 13 L4 18 A a 19 investigation t7 20 2L 22 23 24 25 No. Did you have any discussions with Genenal KeIIogg about the ? A No. I'm tnying to nememben whene I leanned of it, but, no, I didn't have any convensations. a Yeah. Do you necall how you leanned about it? A Not neally. Apologies. I don't, honestly. I don't necaLL if it was thnough open-sounce neponting, on if thene was some sont of intennal update, but I don't neca11 having any convensations with UNCLASS]FIED 134 UNCLASSIFIED 1 it. General Kellogg about a Okay. And not sticking 2 even just within this timeframe, but genenally, did you even become aware of a document request that 3 mone 4 these committees had sent to the 0ffice of the Vice Pnesident fon 5 documents A I 6 7 I believe Uknaine? saw a letten issued that was publicly neleased requesting documents, yes. a 8 9 relating to Was thene ever any discussion about that nequest in the Office of the Vice Pnesident that you wene involved in? 10 A I'm not sune how to answen nelated to document nequests. 11 MR. SHUR: Could you repeat t2 MR. NOBLE: the question? Sune. The question was, was thene any discussion 13 within the Office of the Vice Pnesident of the L4 the committee sent to the Vice President's office? MR. SHUR: The concenn, 15 16 call fon pnivileged L7 office. document nequest that I think, is that the answen is going to communications with lawyens in the Vice Pnesident's 19 I think she can say whethen, yes on no, thene was discussion on not without is the privilege attonney-client 20 pnivilege? Is that 18 MR. NOBLE: 2L MR. SHUR: YeS. 22 MR. NOBLE: 23 was Okay. But I think she can answen whether on not there a discussion without getting into the content. 24 MS. WILLIAVIS: OKay. YeS. 25 MR. NOBLE: Now, all of these documents that you've UNCLASSIFIED been talking 135 UNCLASSIFIED 1 about today, did you tunn those oven to anybody? Like youn notes and 2 the emails nelating to Ukraine? The notes of the Ju1y 25 caII? The 3 copy 4 nefenenced 5 of Ambassadon Taylon's cable and the othen documents that you've MR. in youn testimony? SHUR: I guess, 6 anguably wonk pnoduct 7 provide to same objection in the sense that it's in tenms of what she was asked to collect and counsel. BY MR. NOBLE: 8 9 I think, a Oh, weII, okay, I can ask it this way: maybe Those documents 11 still exist within the Office of the Vice Pnesident. Is that fair? A Cornect. t2 a Okay. And do you necall about when the discussion of the 10 13 committee's nequest fon documents was t4 occunred 15 A held? Do you nememben when that ? Not pnecisely. I'd have to go back and look at when 16 pnecisely the letten was issued vensus when we stanted collecting 77 documents. 18 19 20 2t 22 a Okay. Ane you awane of the call between Vice Pnesident Pence and Pnesident Zelensky on Septemben A a A 18? Yes. What was the punpose The purpose was of that call? to follow up on his successful meeting with to neitenate the news that 23 Pnesident Zelensky on Septemben 1, and 24 secunity assistance hold had been lifted, and that the secunity 25 assistance would be pnovided. We knew at that point that UNCLASS]FIED the Pnesident 136 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Zelensky was alneady awane that the secunity assistance would 2 neleased. 3 Pnesident Zelensky, 4 follow-on convensation. 5 6 7 8 9 But because the Vice Pnesident had a successful meeting with it was a good opportunity fon them to have a a And did you listen in on the call? A Yes. a Can you describe the convensation fon us? A Sure. It was a veny positive discussion, again, kind of following up on thein successful meeting fnom September 1, as well as, just pnion to Pnesident Tnump's first 10 at that point, I believe it 11 meeting with Pnesident Zelensky 12 place the following week. 13 be So it was in was a good oppontunity New York, which, I believe, took to kind of bnidge that gap and to that the Pnesident -- Pnesident Tnump was looking fonwand to L4 convey 15 meeting Pnesident Zelensky 16 Pnesident neitenated the news that the secunity assistance had been t7 neleased. 18 19 a Was in New Yonk the following thene any discussion about the July 25 2T 22 What about 23 24 25 call between Pnesident Tnump and Pnesident Zelensky -- A No. a -- duning that call? 20 week, and the Vice the investigations that we've been talking today? A No. a No. 0h, sonny, I think my time UNCLASSIFIED is up. about L37 UNCLASSIFIED Forty-five minutes to the minonity. t THE CHAIRMAN: 2 MR. CASTOR: We have 3 to just just a few questions. It might keep going on youn end and then 4 MR. NOBLE: Yeah, 5 THE CHAIRMAN: I think Yeah. we'ne almost done. And we want to go 6 I don't think we'ne going to be that Iong. 7 up and then you can go and 8 MR. CASTOR: 9 something, but 10 and then we'IL it Right. Like, I might 11 THE CHAIRMAN: L2 MR. NOBLE: just mean, I make mone sense Yeah. LCt'S dO a Did the topic I of Pnesident could go fon 5 minutes on to finish what you'ne doing did that Pnesident's caIl with Pnesident Zelensky? asked you about, t7 A No. 18 a Were you awane 19 at the time? of whethen that was come up duning stilI the Vice unden considenation A I was still not awane of that at aII at that point. a Did Vice Pnesident Pence give Pnesident Zelensky any advice to approach on how 22 on how 23 United Natlons Genenal 25 wrap Zelensky doing a televised 16 24 to Okay. Gneat. Thanks, Steve. intenview that 2t So do you want us thAt. 15 20 oun membens too, but to BY MR. NOBLE: 13 L4 make sense to deal with Pnesident Tnump at the upcoming Assembly? just to -- that the Pnesident -- Pnesident Tnump would be eagen to hean about Pnesident A Nothing specific, othen than UNCI,ASSIFIED 138 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Zelensky's progress in his reform agenda. UNCLASSIFIED 139 UNCLASSIFIED lL:28 1 p.m. l BY MR. NOBLE: 2 a A 3 4 On -- nefonm agenda on what, on connuption? Bnoadly, on anticonnuption nefonms, on nefonming the 5 judiciany, and the legislative action that his administnation was 6 undentaking, but there was no discussion 7 investigations. a 8 9 10 of Did Vice Pnesident Pence give President Zelensky any kind of talking points on phnases on keywonds to duning their A a LT t2 any specific use with Pnesident Tnump meeting? No. to Septemben 11th, just quickly, Going back ane you aware 13 of a meeting that evening at which the hold on secunity assistance t4 discussed, on Septemben was 11? t7 A No. I'm tnying to nememben was I leanned about the lifting of the hold, I believe, on Septemben 11th, but I thought I leanned about it in the monning. So no, I'm not awane of a meeting 18 that took place that 15 16 a 19 So you'ne evening. not aware of whethen the Vice Pnesident on Genenal 20 Kellogg panticipated 2L question of whethen in a meeting with Pnesident Tnump at which the to lift the hold was discussed on that day? A I necall anound that timefname, Septemben 10th-11th, thene 22 discussion with about trying to have a discussion on 23 was 24 of the hold with the Pnesident, but I'm not -- 25 it occunned, and NSC I was not I don't believe that Genenal Kellogg UNCLASSIFIED the status awane of when on the Vice 740 UNCLASSIFIED L Pnesident wene a pant 2 centain. a 3 To youn of it, although I can't confinm that. I'm not necollection, though, you didn't have any 4 conversations with General Kellogg in advance of that, of such a meeting 5 on aften such a meeting? A No. I 6 mean, at that point, the issue of the secunity 7 assistance hold had been ongoing, so 8 I needed a 9 to bnief him on. Are you awane of whether to 77 to lift the hold on secunity 13 14 15 panticipated A L7 to unge them assistance? The Vice Pnesident was up in New Yonk fon about a day and haIf, I believe, but he did not participate in the Pnesident's a 19 with Pnesident 27 House ? 18 20 Bolton ever called oven A I'm not awane. a Did you panticipate in the U.N. Genenal Assembly? A No. a Do you know if Vice Pnesident Pence on Genenal Kellogg L2 15 anound Ambassadon the time that he depanted the White 10 OMB I didn't feel thene was anything meeting Ze1ensky. a Okay. Did you do any pnep work for the Vice Pnesident's tnip to UNGA? 24 A No. I don't believe he had any engagements nelated to my negion, so I did not. a You watched the pnessen between the Pnesident and President 25 Zelens ky ? 22 23 UNCLASSIFIED t4L UNCLASSIFIED A r did. a Okay. 1 2 3 pnivate meeting that the two Pnesidents had? A I believe I did neceive a neadout later 4 5 Did you get any neadouts fnom anybody about the fnom Tim Monnison about the meeting. 10 a Do you necall what Monrison nelayed? A I don't necall a lot of detail, to be honest. It sounded like it had been a veny positive meeting. I just don't necall the specifics of it. a Are you awane of any convensations that the Vice Pnesident 7t had L2 nelating to the secunity assistance? 6 7 8 9 13 t4 15 15 17 with eithen Secnetany of State Pompeo on Secnetany of Defense Espen A I'm not awane of any. I can't say that it didn't come up in inside convensations, but I'm not awane of any, no. THE CHAIRMAN: I just had one question, then I'm going to hand it to my colleagues. You mentioned at the Wansaw meeting between Pnesident Zelensky 18 and Vice Pnesident Pence that Pnesident Zelensky made clean his 19 intenest in the militany assistance. Did Pnesident Zelensky naise at 20 that meeting his continued interest in a meeting with Pnesident 27 as well? 22 23 24 25 MS. WILLIAIvIS: I'm tnying to necalI. I Tnump honestly don't necall if that specific issue came up. THE CHAIRMAN: assistance and His numben one -- fon its own pnionity night, was and what UNCLASSIFIED getting the militany it would say to the L42 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Russians about . the U.S. having Ukraine's back militanily? WI LLIAVIS : That ' s right 2 MS 3 THE CHAIRIVIAN: MN. SWAIWC1l. 4 MR. SWALWELL: Thank you, Chairman. 5 Thank you, Ms. t,.Jilliams. 6 0n the Apnil 21 congnatulatony . call between Pnesident Tnump and 7 Pnesident Zelensky, did you hean Pnesident Tnump mention cornuption 8 at all? MS. WILLIAMS: 9 10 I only nead the transcnipt, so I wasn't listening to the cal1. 11 MR. SWALWELL: I'm sonny. Did you nead connuption? t2 MS. WILLIAMS: I believe may have come up in the context of ovenall foneign policy objectives for Uknaine to addness the issue 13 oun L4 of anticonruption nefonms. MR. SWALWELL: And 15 it I undenstand that those wene the objectives 16 of the team, but what Pnesident Tnump actually said to L7 Zelensky, did he ever use the word "connuption"? MS. WILLIAMS: 18 19 20 2L 22 be would have to nefen back to the tnanscript to centain. I haven't looked at it in quite a long time. MR. SWALWELL: And you would agnee in the July 25 call that L@@ pencent Pnesident Tnump neven used the wond "connuption"? 100 pencent 24 ca11, but I'd to look at the tnanscript to be centain. I believe he did talk about cornuption in that MS. WILLIAvIS: Again, 23 25 I Pnesident MR. SWALWELL: You have necall heaning the UNCLASSIFIED wond "conruption" fnom 143 UNCLASSlFIED 1 Pnesident Tnump? 2 MS. WILLIAMS: To be honest, 3 MR. SWALWELL: I'd have to neview the tnanscnipt. Aften the April 21st cal1, you said the Vice call to 4 Pnesident neviewed the 5 Pnesident ZeIensky. Do you necal1 that? I memonandum be pnepaned fon provided the tnanscnipt 6 MS. WILLIAvIS: 7 MR. SWALWELL: Fon him 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Connect. 9 MR. SWALWELL: And to to his call to him. neview? I think you descnibed the punpose of that as 10 being so the Vice Pnesident was pnepaned and could canny out the 11 Pnesident, Pnesident Tnump's foneign policy objectives when he spoke 13 to President Zelensky -- on Pnesident-elect Zelensky? MS. WILLIAvIS: Yes. I wanted him to be familian with 14 conversation that Pnesident Trump had had with Pnesident Zelensky 15 days pnion. L2 that Vice Pnesident 16 MR. SWALWELL: And would you say 77 consistent with the message that Pnesident 18 27? 19 MS. WILLIAMS: I believe the two Tnump delivered on Apnil messages were consistent, yes. They both congnatulated Pnesident Zelensky and looked fonwand 2t wonking nelationship. MR. SWALhJELL: So fast-forwand memonandum 24 in his briefing 25 to a good to JuIy 25. Aften that call is pnoduced, you, again, pnovide that to the Vice 23 2 Pence was 20 22 the matenials? MS. WILLIAvIS: Cornect. UNCLASSIFIED Pnesident 144 UNCLASSIFIED 2 Pnesident Zelensky aften July 25 Yes. MS. I^JILLIAvIS: 3 4 the next time the Vice Pnesident talks with MR. SWALWELL: And 1 The Vice Pnesident had Zelensky since Apnil 23nd until Septemben MR. SWALWELL: And 5 so, between Pnesident Tnump's foneign 7 with 8 thein 10 LT how spoken to 1st, yes. the consistency policy objectives in the July 25 call Vice Pnesident Pence intenacted with Pnesident Zelensky in Wansaw meeting? is, Apnil 2L, Pnesident Tnump expresses foneign policy objectives. It sounds like Vice Pnesident Pence stays pretty consistent with those in his followup call. I guess my question L2 MS. WILLIAvIS: Connect. 13 MR. SWALWELL: Now Zelensky. take the luJ-y 25 call between Pnesident and Pnesident 15 consistency with President Tnump's objectives? MS. WILLIAMS: 16 1st in 17 Septemben 18 objectives. I Wansaw was MR. SWALTaJELL: But 20 MS. WILLIAMS: as I've How would say 19 spoken about I I Tnump would you descnibe Vice Pnesident Pence's t4 2L not how would you descnibe 6 9 is in Wansaw. Is that night? that the Vice Pnesident's meeting on consistent with U.S. foneign policy asked about Pnesident Tnump's objectives. undenstand. I undenstand. I would say that, eanlien, that I did find a couple of the nefenences 23 in the Pnesident's July 25th call unusual, and more of a political natune, and that is not something that the Vice Pnesident has even 24 naised with the Uknainians. 22 25 MR. SWALWELL: You would agree that the Pnesident of the United UNCLASSIFIED 145 UNCLASSIFIED 1 States sets the foneign policy objectives fon the United States? MS. WILLIAVIS: Yes, siN. 2 3 4 5 6 in the JuIy 25 caII, the pnionities fon Pnesident Tnump wene for the Uknainians to look into CnowdStnike and MR. SI^IALWELL: And to investigate the Bidens? MS. WILLIAVIS: That is what he naised. MR. SWALWELL: And wene those 7 pnionities of the Pnesident of the 8 United States naised by the Vice Pnesident when he met in penson with 9 Pnesident Zelensky? 10 MS. WILLIAVIS: \L MR. SWALWELL: Why wenen't t2 MS. WILLIAMS: NO. It 13 that meeting, L4 Vice Pnesident intended 15 up. they naised by the Vice Pnesident? was neven part of any of the pnepanation fon of oun -- the message that the to convey to Pnesident Zelensky. It neven came and centainly not pant t7 it as unusual when you heand those pnionities raised on the July 25 call. How did they make you feel as 18 you heand those wonds expnessed by the Pnesident 19 to the Pnesident of Ukraine? 20 MS. WILLIAMS: As 16 MR. SWALWELL: You descnibed 2t political in natune 22 engagement 23 I mentioned, I think I with a foneign leaden, to be mone political than 25 mentioned to be mone -- on an diplomatic. the JuIy 9 meeting between the Vice Pnesident's the Uknainians that you wene pant team and found them and, in the context of a foneign policy MR. SWALWELL: 0n 24 of the United States at all in that meeting? UNCLASSIFIED of, was Rudy Giuliani 146 UNCLASSIFlED 1 MS. WILLIAIVIS: No. 2 MR. SWALWELL: Wene you a pant 3 the July 25 call necond and making 4 MS. WILLIAMS: No. 5 MR. SWALWELL: Was 6 to it make of it public? to MS. WILLIAIVIS: Not 8 MR. SWALWELL: Can you descnibe 10 my knowledge. fon us, fnom youn intenactions with the Uknainians, what the secunity assistance meant to them as fan as life and death in the eastenn pant of their countny? MS. 11 WILLIAMS: My only pensonal intenactions with the Uknainians July 9th, and again on Septemben 1st, in the meetings that we've t2 wene on 13 discussed. MR. SWALWELL: And L4 15 public? the Vice Pnesident a part of any discussions 7 9 any discussions about neleasing to have that In both contexts, both Secnetany Danylyuk on JuIy t7 9th, 18 time on Septemben 1st in Warsaw, conveyed quite seniously L9 emphatically the impontance 20 2L and them assistance? MS. WILLIAMS: 16 did you get a sense of what it meant to centainly Pnesident Zelensky and Secnetany Danylyuk at that and of U.S. secunity assistance to Ukraine, in tenms of, again, not just the physical support pnovided, but the symbolic value of that suppont. 22 MR. SWALWELL: Thank you. 23 I yield 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Raskin. 25 MR. RASKIN: When back. the hold was finally tifted UNCLASSIFIED on the security 147 UNCLASSIFIED 1 assistance on Septemben 11th, what was youn undenstanding at that point 2 of why the hold was lifted? MS. WILLIAMS: 3 I never neceived any readout 4 the Pnesident on how that decision 5 position to the nationale comment on what MR. RASKIN: So you 6 7 issue, but 8 what motivated the was made, so of a discussion with I'm really not in a was. got no neadout fnom the Pnesident on that was thene any discussion on the Vice Pnesident's staff of lifting of the hold? MS. WILLIAMS: No. I found out fnom a colleague that monning, 9 13 I believe that monning, that the Pnesident had made the decision to Iift the hold, but with no funther discussion as to the rationale. MR. RASKIN: So between JuIy 3nd, when you finst leanned of the hold, and Septemben 1lth, when you leanned it was lifted, you neven L4 came 10 TL L2 to undenstand why the hold was imposed on the secunity assistance? is 15 MS. WILLIAMS: That 16 MR. RASKIN: And wene you cunious about L7 18 cornect. it, on you just accepted it? MS. WILLIAvIS: I was certainly cunious about it, but I didn't have 22 to the neasoning. MR. RASKIN: Okay. And you stated that you took notes of the mentions of the political conditions in the July 25th caII because you thought that they wene impnopen, because they wene mone political than 23 diplomatic. Is that night? 19 20 2L 24 25 any finsthand knowledge as I think that's how I would chanactenize nefenences to specific investigations on that caII, yes. MS. WILLIAIvIS: UNCLASSIFIED those two 148 UNCLASSIFIED L MR. RASKIN: Some people would say political, that diplomacy itself is is, to that. and so evenything diplomatic definition, 2 inhenently 3 political 4 out what you saw as impnoperly political about those mentions? 5 6 7 a1so, but you had a stnong neaction I believe I found the specific nefenences to be -- to be mone specific to the Pnesident in natune, to his personal political agenda, as opposed to a bnoaden -to a campaign? Potentially, as opposed to a bnoaden foneign MR. RASKIN: Do you mean nelated 9 MS. WILLIAvIS: policy objective of the United States. Okay. 71 MR. RASKIN: t2 THE CHAIRMAN: 13 Can you spe1l MS. WILLIAVIS: 8 10 by Thank you, Mr. Chainman. Repnesentative Heck and then Repnesentative Demings. you, Mn. L4 MR. HECK: Thank 15 Ms. Wi11iams, thank you again veny much fon being Chainman 16 actually want to bniefly follow up on a question that T7 Swalwell asked. He asked you how 18 Pnesident 19 fon which you've it made you feel here. I Congressman when you heand the in the July 25th call invoke the specten of investigations now chanacterized as personal political intenest. 22 to that was that you found them unusual and political. But the question was how did it make you feel? Given that what you've just said, would it be fain to infen that it made you 23 uncomfontable 20 27 24 25 And youn nesponse MS. ? WILLIAvIS: I guess I would say, as a diplomatic pnofessional, I tny to keep my own pensonal feelings out of, UNCLASSIFIED you know, the day-to-day L49 UNCLASSIFIED 1 wonk, but MR. HECK: You had no pensonal 2 3 how MS. WILLIAMS: Again, MR. HECK: Ms. make you I would say that it struck me as unusual Williams, that's not the question. MR. HECK: 11 guess I'm going I guess for me it did it shed some light on possible othen WeII, I asked thnee times and didn't get thene, so I to let it go at that. L2 I yield back, Mr. Chainman. 13 THE CHAIRIvIAN: Congnessman Maloney. L4 MRS. MALONEY: Thank you veny much 15 MS 16 MRS. MALONEY: We've been gneat . WI LLIAVIS detail. : Thank you fon youn senvice. ma ' am. discussing these telephone calls in of these telephone calls? I do not, and I'm not awane of any. Do you keep tapes 18 M5. WILLIAMS: 19 MRS. MALONEY: You'ne 20 MS. WILLIAVIS: 2t MRS. MALONEY: Ane 22 M5. WILLIAMS: 24 say. awane awane of of any? any necondings. you positive thene's no necondings? I don't pnoduces the tnanscnipts MRS. MALONEY: not I'm not 23 25 How motivations behind a secunity assistance hold. 10 L7 given feel? MS. WILLIAIvIS: 8 9 to that, and inappnopniate. 6 7 nesponse you've chanactenized it? 4 5 feeling know how of calIs, so the White House Situation Room I'm neally not in a position to WeII, I'11 tell you UNCLASSIFIED how we do them in Congness. 150 UNCLASSIFIED of it, it tnanscnibed, and then they t We have 2 put the tape with the words and you have an 3 people 4 Putin is Iistening to these phone calls, given his formen pnofession 5 as the head a tape and then we have official necond. And so, have joked in the pness and Membens talking that, of counse, of the KGB. 6 Right 7 now many of us ane in elections, and when you'ne it's taped, in a 8 contested election, you neven say anything unless 9 your opponent may tny to mix youn wonds up on whateven. So we always 10 have a tape. And something as impontant as LI this, don't you think t2 talking to a foneign government, that thene's got to 13 of this? MS. WILLIAMS: L4 I'm nealLy not in position to 15 I 16 intennal neconds. 77 there's a tape on not. know we neceive 20 21 Who would MS. tell It's me whethen WILLIAvIS: My handtes the pnocessing could I go undenstanding to get this question is the White of those tnanscnipts. 23 MS. WILLIAvIS: 25 say. I don't know. answened? tell me? Situation Room on not there's a tape? Who could MRS. MALONEY: Can you email addness that be a tape someplace neaIly above my pay gnade to detenmine whether 22 24 when you'ne the written tnanscripts aftenwards fon oun own MRS. MALONEY: t'lhene 18 19 because give me a House So they would name? I couldn't, honestly. I -- there's a genenic we communicate MRS. MALONEY: Who's with them, and it'S a veny lange team. in change of the White House Situation UNCLASSIFIED Room? 151 UNCLASSIFIED 3 I don't pensonally know. I MRS. MALONEY: Can you find out fon us? MS. WILLIAVIS: I centainly can. 4 MRS. MAL0NEY: Thank you. 5 Now, what MS. hJILLIAvIS: L 2 of I find veny confusing is I'm a fonmer Yonk. And buneaucnat in State the governors change all the time, but 6 Govennment 7 the buneaucnats stay, and we wonk fon 8 fon the State with a specific job. New apologize. whoeven it is. We'ne working 10 It's the same fon the pnofessionals, not the political appointees, but the pnofessionals ane wonking for the Pnesident, 11 whoeven 9 the Pnesident is, night? : Yes, ma ,aM. MRS. MALONEY: That's it. MS. L2 13 WI LLIAVIS And so the chain of to the Secnetany of State down to L4 Pnesident 15 nesponsibility, command whoeven has is the that connect? MS. WILLIAIVIS: Yes, ma'am. 16 18 I find, if I wene in youn position or othens, so confusing is that you have this chain of command fnom the 19 Pnesident thnough the State Depantment. Then you have anothen chain 20 of 2L who knows 22 Giuliani told L7 MRS. MALONEY: We1I, what command coming fnom the Pnesident thnough Giuliani. Now, anyone thein nelationship, they'ne veny close fniends. And if 24 I'd believe him. I'd believe he's pnobably speaking fon him when he's not saying it. So hene how, as a professional, you have this and what was being 25 told 23 me he's speaking fon the Pnesident, was sepanate, was diffenent. You had UNCLASSIFIED Giuliani saying the 152 UNCLASSIFIED this, 7 Pnesident wants 2 saying the President -- they've So have you even seen 3 4 and then coming down hene, command coming come the State Depantment in here and testified about this. that befone, on heand of two chains of into the State Depantment? 5 MS. WILLIAVIS: Not 6 MRS. MALONEY: in that way, ro, But am I descnibing ma'am. it connectly? it Was 7 confusing to pnofessionals? You wene pnobably a political appointment 8 wonking fon the Vice Pnesident 9 appointment or ane you professional MS. WILLIAvIS: LT MRS. MALONEY: So the ane you a political with the State Depantment? I'm a caneen foneign senvice officen. 10 t2 or maybe you're -- you'ne a caneen officen, so you'ne wonking fon government. 13 MS. WILLIAVIS: Yes, ma'am. L4 MRS. MALONEY: How do it 15 uncomfontable? Did 16 a chain of L7 then you had a chain of 18 channel, command you -- he was saying, did that feel make you make you feel uncomfontable and confused that from the State Depantment was saying one thing and command from the, I'1I caII it the fniendship 19 I don't knowwhat it is, cominB in, and you'ne sitting thene, both coming fnom the Pnesident. How do you -- how did you and your 20 colleagues handle that? MS. WILLIAvIS: 2t WelI, I pensonally was not awane of a lot of the 22 discussions that wene going on with Mn. Giuliani and othens until 23 necently thnough this inquiry pnocess. The finst nefenence 24 pensonally heard related 25 ca11. to Mn. Giuliani UNCLASSIFIED was on I more had the July 25th phone 153 UNCLASSIFIED 1 5o until that time, I really wasn't awane of what othen the Uknainians may have had 2 engagements 3 nepnesentatives, whethen official on not UNCLASSIFIED with othen U.S, 154 UNCLASSIFIED MRS. MALONEY: We1l, neading 1 conflict the papens, it was clean that thene the interpnetation of the pnofessionals at the 2 was a 3 State Depantment and what was coming in thnough the veny powenful 4 fniendship channel. Now, 5 between I'm veny sensitive to how women are tneated pnofessionally, 6 and I 7 aII accounts, by evenyone, both sides 8 beautiful things about hen: a professional, a menton, she inspined 9 fie, followed veny closely we tunned And 10 I to hen Ambassadon see a pattern all this stuff isn't true, maybe we t2 should stand behind oun pnofessional. the State Department's position usually to back up the t4 Amenican nepresentatives 15 I 16 if they factually know they'ne connect? What this Ambassadon, she's absolutely connect. And wouldn't you say that's true? heard is evenybody was backing t7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, ma'am. 18 MRS. MALONEY: And to 19 seemed 20 diffenence It 27 come then there was a change. Now, the aften the Muellen neport came out. change Did you see a ? seemed 22 was tneated and 23 hen when she 24 of 25 said of the State Depantment sont of contnolling the situation and saying: Hey, Isn't it of the aisle, they all by fon advice. 11 13 Yovanovitch. But she was, to me that thene was a diffenence in how hen situation that State Depantment officials did not stand pled fon them to suppont hen. Is that behind a connect assessment what came out? MS. WILLIAIvIS: I don't necall pnecisely when the Muellen nepont UNCLASSIFIED 155 UNCLASSIFTED it that it 7 was neleased, but 2 in a position to 3 the situation with 4 when she was'recalled fnom Kyiv 5 MRS. MALONEY: WeI1, seems make was anound a linkage between the But all I their can say to think that the gneat countny of 8 counten evenybody else's tape is was awane of the end of Apnil, is, if eveny candidate has necond is pontnayed accunately, 7 mean, evenybody I fon consultations. tape to make sune that I two. Ambassador Yovanovitch towands 6 9 that timefname. I'm not Amenica has a I've got got to have a tape to that's out thene. saying -- 10 tt t2 13 74 And it's just common sense that we would have a necond. And I would -- what's youn -- what's youn -- I guess this is not an appnopniate question fon you. 16 I just want to thank you fon youn senvice. And I yield back. L7 MS. WILLIAvIS: Thank 18 THE CHAIRIvIAN: Back 15 ma'am. to the minonity. BY MR. CASTOR: 79 20 you, a for youn senvice and fon appeaning hene today and our questions. This is, indeed, not a comfontable Thank you 2t answening 22 envinonment. So to the extent you have sat here 23 questions, thank you. 24 25 all day and answened A Thank you. a rI just have a couple of followup questions UNCLASSIFIED 156 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 A Of counse. a -- which should be hopefully bnief. A No wonnies. a Wene thene any -- aften you netunned from Poland, did the 5 VP have any funthen intenactions 6 knowledge 7 8 9 10 with President Zelensky, to your ? A Not until the September 18th calI. a Okay. And could you just nefnesh my necollection of what occurned on the Septemben 18th call? A Sure. So we had proposed that the Vice President make a 7L followup call to Pnesident Zelensky to fo1low up on thein very positive L2 discussion fnom Septemben 13 not only could they discuss the fact that the secunity assistance hold L4 had been neleased, but 15 would see Pnesident Zelensky 1st. It also it seemed like good timing, because was about a week befone Pnesident Tnump in New Yonk. L7 that's why the call took place, and it was veny -- again, a veny positive call, yoU know, with the Vice Pnesident neitenating the 18 nelease 19 Zelensky's effonts wene going 16 20 2L So of the funds and asking a bit a Okay. And on that call, investigations A No. 23 a Any -- A a No 25 about, you know, how thene wasn't any mention of ? 22 24 mone specific investigations, no. Not 2016, not -UNCLASSIFIED L57 UNCLASSIFIED L A 2 a 3 A No 4 a Not Biden? 5 A No. Bunisma ? a Not CnowdStnike? A No. a Okay. How often do you intenact with the Vice Pnesident? 6 7 8 9 No Like how fnequently ane you bniefing him A It 10 depends on the week. It's not a veny concnete answen. 11 It's L2 is 13 with a foneign leader on a phone call. T4 least once a week, but it 15 and to his engagements with issues in my pontfolio, which and Russia. So whethen that's in pneparation fon a meeting acconding Eunope a depends on And ondinany bniefings So the I would say, you know, at week. with the Vice Pnesident, what's the L7 of staff that panticipates? A In his foneign leaden engagements on just in 18 a 19 typical undenstanding or your 20 that is involved? 16 nosten The bniefings that you'ne involved with. What's 23 24 So when 22 25 always youn typical necollection of the type of staff A Well a I mean, you'ne not bniefing him one-on-one, A Sune. No, oor ho, of counse. 27 genenal? connect? I've been involved in bniefings with him, it's -- almost Genenal Kellogg is pant of that discussion as well, and often UNCLASSIFIED 158 UNCLASSIFIED 7 his Chief of Staff. THE CHAIRMAN: 2 issue. If I can just intennupt, be an 4 on seek 5 out thene, that 6 way on anothen, then you should 7 8 9 Lo if And so youn answens would tend a No, f'm just tnying to undenstand, when you A Usually - - it's usually a smaI1 gnoup. of Staff, Kel1ogg, Manc Shont, oun Chief 77 Deputy National Secunity Advison as well. 22 23 24 25 to pnoceed. bnief the Vice is it 5, is it just you, Ke1logg, 16 2L counsel BY MR. CASTOR: and -- 20 one I didn't realize I was anywhene close to that. THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know if you ane. When we stanted getting into tell me all the names you know, then that's when I took intenest. L4 19 I just put that caveat to give any indication that caveat, I will allow the Pnesident ane thene 10 staffens thene, 18 pnobe not go there. 13 15 may on may not MR. CASTOR: Ll t2 to identify the whistleblowen. And, with this tny to be veny caneful not to aIIow questions to 3 We and and It's usuaLly Genenal myself. Sometimes oun a Okay. And in tenms of the bniefing books the Vice Pnesident gets, you know, like any senior executive, I mean, is it youn understanding he reads the briefing books eveny night on he neads it sometimes and not sometimes -- on not other times, excuse me? A I honestly don't know. We pnovide it daiIy. a A a Okay. Yeah. But you have no way of knowing whethen on not the Vice UNCLASSIFIED 159 UNCLASSIFIED I mean, he might have a at night. It just might not 1 Pnesident neads a panticular briefing book? 2 veny busy 3 happen. A a A a 4 5 6 7 8 calendan. might have things Connect. And thene's just no way of knowing. Connect. And so the briefing book that the Vice Pnesident on JuIy 25th, you said it included the neceived call tnanscnipt. A That's night. a And to the best of youn knowledge, that was the only bniefing 9 10 set of matenials pnovided to the Vice Pnesident nelating to 11 book on t2 that call? A a 13 L4 15 He Cornect. And you genuinely just don't know if the Vice Pnesident nead that infonmation? t7 A That's night. I just don't a Okay. 18 The concenns 16 know. that you've outlined about the ca1l, 19 communicated youn concenns 20 President's office? at any point to anyone inside the Vice A No. My boss, Genenal Ke1logg, was on the call 2t as 22 I 23 bniefing book that evening. But given 24 the Vice President, 25 Pnesident in that mannen was neally outside my punview. knew that the Vice Pnesident I had access considened my have you well. to the tnanscnipt fnom his role as Special Advisen to that something nelated to UNCLASSIFIED And the 150 UNCLASSTFIED a t Now that you'ne hene testifying in Congness, that thene's 2 a tnanscnipt that could be made public, befone you came up hene did 3 you communicate 4 nest of the staff that you'ne coming up hene and you'ne planning to 5 teII to the Vice President's -- to Genenal Kellogg and the Congress about the concenns you had? 8 A I didn't discuss my testimony with anyone in the office. a So it's possible Genenal Kellogg, the othen staff in the Vice Pnesident's office, this might be the finst they'ne heaning of youn 9 concenns about 6 7 A a 10 11 72 May A a 13 74 15 13th the 7/25 call? That is possible. The infonmation you neceived fnom Marc Shont's -- was 17 18 19 20 that the day? Connect. You wene told by Manc Shont's assistant that the A Conrect. a A a A And did the assistant -- I think you said it VP was not was a she, night? Yes. Did she explain why on how she came My to best necollection is that she infonmed leann that? me that the VP would 2t not be tnaveling to Ukraine for the inaugunation. And 22 why 23 the Pnesident 25 on going on the tnip? L6 24 assistant not? a A And my best necollection had detenmined is that she then let I was not asked hen, me know that that the Vice Pnesident should not Okay. But I privy to that convensation. UNCLASSIFIED go. L67 UNCLASSIFIED 6 a Okay. And it was a telephone convensation? A Connect. a And you didn't ask any followup questions? A I took that to be the guidance and then moved on with stopping the trip pnepanation. a So as you sit hene today, you don't know how she leanned that 7 infonmation 1 2 3 4 5 A Cornect, I don't. a Okay. Have you had any funthen discussions with hen since 8 9 10 11 72 ? May 13th about that convensation? Have you -- A No. engage We don't neally talk about policy issues. I genenally with hen nelated to scheduling issues. 15 try to refresh youn necollection about exactly how you came to leann this infonmation? A No. No, I nefneshed my memony just fnom looking at my own L6 intennal 13 74 L7 18 19 20 a 5o you didn't go back to hen and documents. a Okay. And to the best of your knowledge, and today, you haven't even discussed A a that with hen, night? Not with hen, no. And I think you said this monning that once the VP's 21 to Kyiv was not going to 22 Genenal Kellogg on Mn. Shont on anyone on the VP's 23 24 25 between May L3th tnip happen you neven had any discussions with staff about why? A No. No, I conveyed that infonmation to NSC colleagues and let them take it fnom thene. a So youn infonmation about the why solely comes fnom UNCLASSIFIED L62 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Mn. Shont's assistant, night? A That's right. a I fonget if you indicated to us, but how many intenactions 2 3 4 have you had 5 A 6 7 8 9 A with Ambassadon Sondland? handful. I'm tnying to be mone pnecise than there. I had seen him at some point in the summen at anothen meeting nelated to, I believe, othen EU issues. So not a lot, foun on five. a Okay. And have you had any discussions with othen staffens that you work with about Ambassadon 11 these issues? Sondland and his nole in t2 A In his nole in Ukraine issues in panticulan? 13 a 15 16 17 20 2t some of Yes. I think his name came up in vanious discussions about Uknaine, and so I deduced from that that obviously he was involved. I didn't know if he had a -- some sont of fonmal designation to do that on if it was just his interest in it. 18 19 He was obviously pant of the delegation in Wansaw, so I saw him a couple times 10 L4 that. to I A Not specific discussions. a Did you know whether on not Ambassador Sondland repnesented mean, with the peopte that he fnequently communicated A a Can you nephrase? That he nepnesented -- Pnesident? Do you know whethen Ambassadon Sondland had nepnesented to 22 other people in your cincle of, you know, wonking these staff issues, 23 nepnesented 24 the President? 25 to those people that he had fnequent communications with A I don't know. I didn't have enough pensonal interaction UNCLASSIFIED 163 UNCLASSIFIED L 2 3 4 with Ambassadon Sondland a Okay. So it to say. value pnoposition hene is that he's close A that he may have had 6 know how he chanactenized a to you that pant of his to the Pnesident? Again, you know, I'm only now becoming aware of engagements 8 to was never communicated 5 7 be able some of the with Uknainians and othens, so I don't himself in those discussions. The communication that only leanned about that in the he had with Mn. Yenmak in Wansaw, You pness? 13 A That's night. I was not awane of it at the time. a And wene you tnacking what happened yesterday? He submitted an addendum, I think it is. A I've seen that. a An addendum? Was that what it was, an addendum to his 14 testimony 9 10 11 t2 2L A a A a A about it. a 22 Wansaw 15 16 L7 18 19 20 23 ? I've seen it. Did you see that? I've seen the neponts, yes. Okay. And did you tnack what was in the addendum? I haven't nead it yet. I've just seen the news neporting Do you know whether the addendum included an account of the -- A I don't know, I haven't nead it yet. But I undenstand I think I wasn't his meeting with Mn. Yenmak. But, again, 24 he was descnibing 25 pant of that meeting in Wansaw. UNCLASSIFIED 164 UNCLASSIFIED t 2 Okay. But the -- Mornison, Bolton, a nobody communicated you about the Sondland-Yenmak communication? A 3 Connect. 5 a You just nead about it in the pness? A Yes. I was not awane of that until this 6 MR. CASTOR: Okay. 7 That's all I 8 Mr. 9 MR. IORDAN: So 4 25th 11. didn't londan? the concenns you had, Ms. Williams, with the July shane any concenns 12 MS. WILLIAvIS: No, 13 MR. IORDAN: Pnesident week. have. caII, I just want to make sure I 10 L4 to with heard what you said eanlien. You anyone? sin, that's night. Okay. Not with Genenal Kel1ogg, not with the Vice ? 15 MS. WILLIAVIS: Connect. 15 MR. IORDAN: Okay. And the Vice President had the thnee t7 intenactions with Pnesident Zelensky. He had the call in Apni1, 18 had 19 call a few weeks laten. the face-to-face in Wansaw Septemben 20 MS. WILLIAvIS: Septemben 2L MR. JORDAN: Septemben 22 MS. WILLIAVIS: ConNeCt. 23 MR. IORDAN: 24 you know, the things 25 thene. he 1st, and then the followup 18th, y€s, sin. 17th, 18th. Okay. 18th? And Mn. Caston asked you about what, that wenen't discussed thene and what UNCLASSIFIED was discussed 165 UNCLASSIFIED L 2 3 4 5 6 Did the Vice Pnesident officials in this talk with any othen high-nanking Uknainian timeframe? No. Thene wene othen Uknainian officials in the Septemben 1st bilat meeting, but that's it. MS. WILLIAVIS: obviously involved MR. JORDAN: But the focus was always the Vice Pnesident Pnesident Zelensky, talking with -- 7 MS. WILLIAV1S: Connect. 8 MR. JORDAN: 9 official -- oun Vice Pnesident That's right. MS. WILLIAVIS: 11 MR. IORDAN: t2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 13 Ms. Williams, thank you fon youn senvice talking with thein top -- top ? 10 L4 and to the Okay. Thank you. testimony. Thank you for country. this deposition, and we ane adjounned. at 1:57 p.n., the deposition was concluded.] 15 That concludes 16 IWhereupon, UNCLASSIFIED youn Justin V. Shur MoloLamken LLP 600 New Hampshire Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20037 T: 202.556.2005 F: 202.556.2001 jshur@mololamken.com www.mololamken.com November 11, 2019 The Honorable Adam Schiff Chairman Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence U.S. House of Representatives Washington, D.C. 20515 Re: Correction to the transcript of Jennifer Williams’s deposition testimony Dear Chairman Schiff: We write on behalf of Jennifer Williams under Rule 8 of the 116th Congress’s Regulations for Use of Deposition Authority. Ms. Williams has reviewed the transcript of her deposition testimony from November 7, 2019, and wishes to amend it as described below. At her deposition, Ms. Williams was asked whether the Ukrainian company Burisma was mentioned by name during the call between President Trump and President Zelensky on July 25, 2019. She testified that it was. Tr. at 66-67, 129. She was then asked who had mentioned it and whether she had taken notes. Ms. Williams testified that she had taken notes, and that she believed her notes reflected that President Trump had referenced Burisma. Id. At the time of her testimony, that was Ms. Williams’s recollection. Following the deposition, Ms. Williams reviewed her notes again and discovered that her recollection had been incorrect. Her notes reflect that President Zelensky mentioned Burisma during the July 25 call. They do not indicate that President Trump did so. Accordingly, Ms. Williams wishes to amend her response to the question discussed above so that it accurately reflects what she recorded during the call. We thank the Committee for considering this letter. Sincerely, Justin V. Shur Emily K. Damrau Caleb Hayes-Deats Counsel to Jennifer Williams Jennifer Williams