UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 6 EXECUTIVE SESSION 7 PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE, 8 joint with the 9 COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM, 10 and the 11 COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS, 12 U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 13 WASHINGTON, D.C. 14 15 16 17 DEPOSITION OF: AMBASSADOR DAVID MACLAIN HALE 18 19 20 21 22 Wednesday, November 6, 2019 23 Washington, D.C. 24 25 UNCLASSIFIED 1 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 The deposition in the above matter was held in Room HVC-304, Capitol Visitor Center, commencing at 9:12 a.m. 3 Present: 4 Also Present: 5 2 Representatives Schiff and Quigley. Maloney, Norton, Connolly, Jordan, Meadows, and Perry. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 Appearances: 3 4 5 For the PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE: 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 UNCLASSIFIED 3 UNCLASSIFIED 1 For the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM: 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 For the COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS: 9 10 11 12 13 14 For AMBASSADOR DAVID MACLAIN HALE 15 16 BRIAN GLASSER 17 CARY JOSHI 18 BAILEY GLASSER, LLP 19 1055 Thomas Jefferson Street, NW 20 Suite 540 21 Washington, DC 20007 UNCLASSIFIED 4 UNCLASSIFIED 1 THE CHAIRMAN: 2 Good morning, Ambassador Hale, and welcome to the House Permanent 3 Select Committee on Intelligence, which along with the Foreign Affairs 4 and Oversight Committees is conducting this investigation as part of 5 the official impeachment inquiry of the House of Representatives. 6 7 Okay. 5 The committee will come to order. Today's deposition is being conducted as part of the impeachment inquiry. 8 In light of attempts by the Department of State and the 9 administration to direct you and others not to cooperate with the 10 inquiry, the committee had no choice but to compel your appearance 11 today. 12 We thank you for complying with the duly authorized congressional 13 subpoena, as other current and former officials from across the Federal 14 Government have done. 15 Ambassador Hale is the Under Secretary of State for Political 16 Affairs, the most senior career official at the Department of State. 17 He has held this position since August 30, 2018, after being appointed 18 by President Trump. 19 Ambassador Hale joined the foreign service in 1984 and has served 20 with distinction in various positions throughout his long career in 21 public service. 22 appointed by Presidents of both parties, including but not limited to 23 Ambassador to Pakistan, Ambassador to Lebanon, and Ambassador to 24 Jordan. 25 He has served across administrations and has been Ambassador Hale, thank you for your service, and welcome. UNCLASSIFIED 6 UNCLASSIFIED 1 We look forward to your testimony today, including your knowledge 2 of and involvement in key policy discussions, meetings, and decisions 3 on Ukraine that relate directly to areas under investigation by the 4 committees. 5 Ambassador Yovanovitch; the President's July 25, 2019, call with 6 Ukrainian President Zelensky; as well as the documentary record that 7 has come to light about efforts before and after the call to get the 8 Ukrainians to announce publicly investigations into two areas 9 President Trump asked President Zelensky to pursue: This includes developments related to the re-call of the Bidens and 10 Burisma, and the conspiracy theory about Ukraine's purported 11 interference in the 2016 U.S. elections. 12 We will also have questions about the Department's response to 13 the impeachment inquiry, including the committee's subpoena, which the 14 Department continues to defy despite the fact that we know with great 15 specificity that it has already collected significant documentary 16 evidence that goes to the heart of our inquiry. 17 Finally, to restate what I and others have emphasized in other 18 interviews, Congress will not tolerate any reprisal, threat of 19 reprisal, or attempt to retaliate against any U.S. Government official 20 for testifying before Congress, including you or any of your 21 colleagues. 22 It is disturbing that the State Department in coordination with 23 the White House has sought to prohibit Department employees from 24 cooperating with the inquiry and with Congress and have tried to limit 25 what they can say. This is unacceptable. UNCLASSIFIED 7 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Thankfully, consummate public servants like you have 2 demonstrated remarkable courage in coming forward to testify and tell 3 the truth. 4 Before I turn to committee counsel to begin the interview, I 5 invite Ranking Member Nunes or, in his absence, any of the other 6 Republican members present to make any opening remarks. 7 MR. JORDAN: 8 Ambassador, thank you for being here today. 9 10 Mr. Chairman, thank you. long service to our country. Thank you for your We greatly appreciate that. I would just add one thing, Mr. Chairman, for the record. I think 11 we've had some witnesses not appear this week and throughout 12 this -- throughout these depositions over the past several weeks. 13 think we would have some of those individuals show up if, in fact, the 14 majority would reconsider their decision to not allow agency counsel 15 to represent folks from the State Department or other agencies in the 16 government to be here as counsel for them. I 17 If we're truly focused on getting to the truth and developing a 18 full picture of the facts, I think we could have more witnesses and 19 get more information if, in fact, agency counsel would be permitted 20 to represent some of the folks who have been called by the majority. 21 With that, I would yield back. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: I thank the gentleman. I would just point out 23 that when the gentleman was part of the Benghazi investigations, those 24 interviews were -- depositions were conducted without agency counsel 25 present. It was a good practice for my colleague then, it remains the UNCLASSIFIED 8 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 better practice now. MR. JORDAN. Mr. Chairman, if I could, just a quick response. You've raised this several times. The example I'll point to is Cheryl Mills, who was not even an 5 employee at the State Department at the time we deposed her in the 6 investigation you referenced, and she was permitted to have agency 7 counsel there as well as her own counsel. 8 the room than just about anyone I could imagine. So she had more lawyers in 9 All I'm saying is I think there would be more witnesses show up 10 for this investigation if, in fact, we are determined the to get to 11 the full picture, get the full picture and get to the truth, if the 12 chairman would permit agency counsel to represent some of the witnesses 13 that the majority has called. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: I'll just point out again, and then we should move 15 on to the witness interview, that was not a deposition. 16 transcribed interview. 17 adopting -- we are using the same practice, Mr. Jordan, that you fully 18 supported at the time. 19 That was a We're not being -- we are not being -- we are We'll go forward now. And with that, I'll recognize Mr. Goldman. UNCLASSIFIED 9 UNCLASSIFIED 1 [9:17 a.m.] 2 MR. GOLDMAN: This is a deposition of Ambassador David Hale 3 conducted by the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence 4 pursuant to the impeachment inquiry announced by the Speaker of the 5 House on September 24th, 2019. 6 7 Ambassador Hale, if you could please state your full name and spell your last name for the record. 8 AMBASSADOR HALE: 9 MR. GOLDMAN: David Maclain Hale, H-A-L-E. Thank you. You can leave your microphone on 10 and -- well, as we begin and then so you can just talk and we won't 11 have to worry about it. 12 Along with other proceedings in furtherance of the inquiry to 13 date, this deposition is part of a joint investigation led by the 14 Intelligence Committee in coordination with the Committees on Foreign 15 Affairs and Oversight and Reform. 16 In the room today are majority staff and minority staff from all 17 three committees. 18 of course, may ask questions during their allotted time, as has been 19 the case in every deposition since the inception of this investigation. 20 And this will be a staff-led deposition. My name is Daniel Goldman. Members, I'm the Director of Investigations 21 for the Intelligence Committee's majority staff, and I want to thank 22 you again for coming in today. 23 Let me do some brief introductions. To my right here is Nicolas 24 Mitchell. He's the senior investigative counsel for the Intelligence 25 Committee's majority staff, and Mr. Mitchell and I will be conducting UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 10 most of the interview for the majority. Now I'd like to allow my counterparts on the minority to introduce themselves. MR. CASTRO: Morning, sir. Steve Castor with the Oversight Committee Republican staff. 6 7 8 9 10 MR. GOLDMAN: This deposition will be conducted entirely at the 11 unclassified level; however, the deposition is being conducted in HPSCI 12 secure spaces and in the presence of staff with appropriate security 13 clearances. 14 It is the committee's expectation that neither questions asked 15 of you nor answers provided by you will require discussion of any 16 information that is currently or at any point could be properly 17 classified under Executive Order 13526. 18 You are reminded that EO13526 states that quote, "in no case shall 19 information be classified, continue to be maintained as classified, 20 or fail to be declassified" unquote, for the purpose of concealing any 21 violations of law or preventing embarrassment of any person or entity. 22 If any of our questions, however, can only be answered with 23 classified information, please inform us of that fact before you answer 24 the question and we will adjust accordingly. 25 Today's deposition is not being taken in executive session, but UNCLASSIFIED 11 UNCLASSIFIED 1 because of the sensitive and confidential nature of some of the topics 2 and materials that will be discussed, access to the transcript of the 3 deposition will be limited to the three committees in attendance. 4 Under House deposition rules, no Member of Congress nor any staff 5 member can discuss the substance of the testimony that you provide 6 today. 7 8 9 You and your attorneys will have an opportunity to review the transcript. Before we begin, I'd like to just go over the ground rules for 10 this deposition. 11 depositions, which we have previously provided to your counsel. 12 We will be following the House regulations for The deposition will proceed as follows: The majority will be 13 given 1 hour to ask questions and then the minority will be given 14 1 hour. 15 and minority in 45-minute rounds until questioning is complete. 16 17 18 19 20 Thereafter, we will alternate back and forth between majority We will take periodic breaks, but if you need a break at any time, please let us know. Under the deposition rules, counsel for other persons or government agencies may not attend. You are permitted to have an attorney present during this 21 deposition, and I see that you have brought one. 22 counsel -- sorry. 23 24 25 At this time, if I see you brought two. At this time, if counsel could please state their appearances for the record. MR. GLASSER: Brian Glasser. UNCLASSIFIED 12 UNCLASSIFIED 1 MS. JOSHI: 2 MR. GOLDMAN: Cary Joshi. There is a stenographer taking down everything that 3 is said here today in order to make a written record of the deposition. 4 For the record to be clear, please wait until each question is completed 5 before you begin your answer, and we will wait until you finish your 6 response before asking you the next question. 7 The stenographer cannot record non-verbal answers such as shaking 8 your head, so it is important that you answer each question with an 9 audible verbal answer. 10 We ask that you give complete replies to questions based on your 11 best recollection. 12 your response, please let us know. 13 question -- do not know the answer to a question or cannot remember, 14 simply say so. 15 If a question is unclear or you are uncertain in And if you do not answer the You may only refuse to answer a question to preserve a privilege 16 recognized by the committee. If you refuse to answer a question on 17 the basis of privilege, staff may either proceed with the deposition 18 or seek a ruling from the chairman on the objection. 19 overrules any such objection, you are required to answer the question. 20 Finally, you are reminded that it is unlawful to deliberately If the chair 21 provide false information to Members of Congress or staff. 22 imperative that you not only answer our questions truthfully, but that 23 you give full and complete answers to all questions asked of you. 24 Omissions may also be considered as false statements. 25 It is Now, as this deposition is under oath, Ambassador Hale, would you UNCLASSIFIED 13 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 please stand, raise your right hand to be sworn. Do you swear that your testimony provided here today will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth? 4 AMBASSADOR HALE: 5 MR. GOLDMAN: 6 Let the record reflect that the witness has been sworn. 7 You may be seated. 8 Ambassador Hale, if you have any opening statement or your 9 10 I do. Thank you. attorney has any matters to discuss, now is the time for either. AMBASSADOR HALE: Well, good morning. As the chairman said, I 11 am and have been the Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs 12 since August 2018 and a foreign service officer for over 35 years with 13 a career primarily in the Middle East. 14 15 16 17 18 19 It has been my great honor to serve as an Ambassador for three administrations, representing presidents of both parties. I'm here in response to your subpoena and I'm ready for your questions. MR. GOLDMAN: Thank you. hour of questioning. EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. GOLDMAN: 21 22 We will now begin the majority's first Q Ambassador Hale, just following up a little bit on your 23 service and your background, you said that you were an Ambassador in 24 three different countries. 25 those Ambassadorships? Which countries were those and when were UNCLASSIFIED 14 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 A I was Ambassador in Jordan from 2005 to 2008, Ambassador to Lebanon from 2013 to 2015, and Ambassador to Pakistan from 2015 to 2018. Q And as the under secretary that you are now, that's a -- that is a confirmed position. Is that right? 5 A Correct. 6 Q And is it generally -- are you the -- am I correct in 7 understanding that you are the highest ranking career servant in the 8 State Department right now? 9 A There are actually four career Ambassadors. I am one of the 10 four, and I'm also the most senior in terms of the position that I hold 11 as Under Secretary of State. 12 13 14 Q Okay. Can you explain a little bit what -- the duties and responsibilities of the Under Secretary of Political Affairs? A The Under Secretary for Political Affairs covers the globe. 15 I'm responsible for the management of our bilateral relations with 16 every country in the world that we recognize, for the management of 17 our policies toward those countries, as well as our relations or 18 policies as they relate to multi-lateral organizations, the U.N. and 19 other such bodies. 20 I oversee all the regional bureaus and the International 21 Organizations Bureau and all of the embassies that report to those 22 bureaus. 23 I advise the Secretary of State as needed on all of those matters. 24 Q How frequently do you meet with the Secretary of State? 25 A It varies. If we're both in town, we could meet several UNCLASSIFIED 15 UNCLASSIFIED 1 times a week or we can meet several times a day. 2 on the schedules and what's happening. 3 4 Q And how often -- how frequently are you in written communication with the Secretary? 5 A 6 me an email. 7 respond. 8 phone. 9 Q 10 11 It really just depends We almost never exchange email. I never respond. He has once or twice sent I go back through his staff. Or rarely I primarily go back through his staff or directly on the As you know, our inquiry is focused on Ukraine, which is one of many countries, obviously, that you oversee. Just generally speaking, how much attention have you paid to the 12 State Department's engagement and policy towards Ukraine since 13 you assumed this position in August of 2018? 14 A Well, I obviously pay attention to all of our relationships. 15 I first focused on it really when Ambassador Yovanovitch came to see 16 me, as many Ambassadors do, to introduce herself in October 17 of -- October 5th of 2018. 18 encouraged me to come visit Ukraine before the presidential elections. 19 And so I did go in February. 20 postponed. 21 And she briefed me on Ukraine. She I planned a trip in December that got So it was in the context of my trip that really, as often is the 22 case, trips focus the attention of a visitor. 23 that trip in spending time with her. 24 Q When did you go to Ukraine? 25 A It was in February of 2019. UNCLASSIFIED And I learned a lot on 16 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Q Where did you go? 2 A To Kiev. 3 I'm sorry. 4 It was March, if I may correct the record. March 5th to 7th. 5 Q And what prompted your visit to Ukraine? 6 A Oh, the Ambassador had encouraged me to come. She felt it 7 was important to have a senior officer come to indicate our continued 8 presence and engagement with Ukranian officials. 9 eve of the election, so it was an opportunity for me to meet with It was also on the 10 President Poroshenko and the two leading contenders against him for 11 office, which I did. 12 13 14 Q When you met with Ambassador Yovanovitch in October of 2018, what did she say to you about the state of play in Ukraine at that time? A I really don't remember the details of the conversation. 15 There was nothing unusual about the conversation. 16 the importance of our anti-corruption effort, the importance of 17 standing up to the Russians and helping the Ukrainians do that. 18 19 Q She talked about Did you have any discussion about any complaints that had been made by any other Americans related to her role there and her job? 20 A I don't remember that it came up there. 21 Q When you were there in March, did you have a discussion with 22 23 Ambassador Yovanovitch about extending her stay there? A Yes, I did. I remember that we had a conversation, as 24 the -- later in the program, after I had some time with her, I felt 25 that I could make an assessment that she was doing a very good job, UNCLASSIFIED 17 UNCLASSIFIED 1 and I asked her if she was -- because we had a gap coming, we didn't 2 have an Ambassador lined up and confirmed to be there when she was due 3 to leave in the summer, I asked her if she would consider staying longer. 4 She said she wanted to think about it. 5 She got back to me after the trip and indicated that she was 6 prepared to stay longer. 7 Bureau to work it and see if there would be agreement on that. 8 9 Q So I turned it over to our head of the European Did you know Ambassador Yovanovitch before you met with her in October of 2018? 10 A No. We had never met. 11 Q Did you know her by reputation at all? 12 A Somewhat. I don't think I'd heard it until I took this 13 position. 14 I was not familiar with, and I had heard positive things about her. 15 16 17 Q And I was asking people about various Ambassadors in areas Did anything else stand out to you about your visit to Ukraine in early March of this year? A No. As I said, it was new terrain for me. I had been to 18 Ukraine only once before as a -- as a staffer for a Secretary of State 19 20 years earlier, so it was new terrain. 20 in the developments there. 21 Q I was just very interested When you offered Ambassador Yovanovitch the extension of her 22 appointment there, did you have any discussions with any more senior 23 members of the State Department about that, or was that within your 24 complete domain? 25 A It's not within my complete domain, but I don't remember UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 1 discussing it. 2 but I just don't remember those conversations. 3 4 Q I may have. 18 It was not something I could do on my own, And by early March of this year, were you aware of any complaints that anyone had about Ambassador Yovanovitch? 5 A By what time period? 6 Q Early March, when you visited Ukraine. 7 A Yes. The Secretary of State had mentioned to me some time 8 in the fall that he had received a letter from a Member of Congress 9 with complaints saying that the Ambassador was saying derogatory things 10 about President Trump. 11 Q Can you describe that conversation in a little more detail? 12 A Only to say that the Secretary told me that his attitude to 13 her or his response to that was that he needed to see evidence. 14 wasn't going to take these allegations seriously unless he saw evidence 15 behind them. 16 Q And was he aware of any evidence at that point? 17 A No. 18 Q Prior to your trip to Ukraine in March, did you have any 19 Not to my knowledge. He He indicated he had not. further discussions with the Secretary about those allegations? 20 A I don't remember. 21 Q Now, did you know who the Congressman was who had made the 22 complaint? 23 A I did. 24 Q Who was that? 25 A Congressman Sessions. UNCLASSIFIED 19 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Q Did you do anything to look into those allegations? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you have any reason to believe that there was any validity 4 to them? 5 A No. 6 Q Now, shortly after you returned from Ukraine, did there come 7 a time when you read some news articles that included additional 8 allegations related to Ambassador Yovanovitch? 9 A Yeah. In late March, there were several articles, including 10 an article in The Hill, which came out, which were brought to my 11 attention in the context of discussion by email amongst various staff 12 as to what we should do as a Department in response to these press 13 articles. 14 15 16 17 Q Before we get to these press articles, there were a couple questions that I wanted to ask you. Were you aware of any efforts by Robert Livingston in connection to Ukraine or Ambassador Yovanovitch? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you have any discussions with Ambassador Yovanovitch 20 21 22 when you were in Ukraine about Rudy Giuliani? A I don't remember it coming up. I don't believe so, because I don't remember it. 23 Q Okay. Or any associates of Rudy Giuliani? 24 A Same. 25 Q So when you received those emails about the articles at the UNCLASSIFIED 20 UNCLASSIFIED 1 end of March, what was the context that you received those emails? A 2 Well, there were a series of emails that came over a period 3 of time. 4 primarily from the European Affairs Bureau indicating -- there was one 5 stream which was, what press statement, if any, should we issue in 6 response to these various allegations, another stream was, what should 7 we do to protect or otherwise defend Ambassador Yovanovitch, who was 8 the target of much of these various things that were in the public arena 9 about her conduct. Q 10 11 I mean, it was from March 21st till about the 23rd, 24th, Let's take each of those two streams. As to the public statement, what do you recall about that stream? A 12 There was a back-and-forth about what we should say. We did 13 put out a statement that said that one of the -- there was an allegation 14 that we had somehow -- the United States Government had presented a 15 "do not prosecute" list to the Ukranian authorities, and we put out 16 a statement saying that that was an outright fabrication. And then there was a separate stream about the so-called smear 17 18 campaign against the Ambassador. 19 there. And there were various suggestions There was discussion of whether Mayor Giuliani was involved or 20 21 not. 22 abnormal to me, but there was more and more information and allegations 23 that came out. 24 25 Initially, I found that a little bit hard to believe, it seemed Finally, on March 24, it was a Saturday -- by the way, I was traveling during this time period, I was in Beirut, so communications UNCLASSIFIED 21 UNCLASSIFIED 1 were difficult, given the time change and not having access to your 2 electronics at all times, but in any case, we landed at 3 or 4 o'clock 3 in the morning on a Sunday. 4 And that morning, Ambassador Yovanovitch had emailed me 5 indicating that the tempo of the social media and other criticisms of 6 her were such that she felt she could no longer function unless there 7 was a strong statement of defense of her from the State Department. 8 So I read that email at some point that day, and called her up 9 in the afternoon to hear firsthand from her just exactly what it was 10 that was going on. 11 Q What did she say to you? 12 A I don't remember anything differently than what was in the 13 email, to be honest with you. And I asked her to send me in writing 14 an account of what she thought was happening to her, because, again, 15 it was extremely confusing. 16 information churning in the public arena. 17 to me and indicated that I would review that on Monday and we would 18 see what we would do. It was just this mass amount of I asked her to send that 19 Q Did she send that email to you? 20 A She did. 21 Q What did that email say? 22 A The email basically talked -- didn't provide what I was 23 expecting, which was an account of what was happening, but rather an 24 informed series of speculations about the motivations of people who 25 may have been behind this campaign. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 22 1 Q Do you recall any more specifics? 2 A Well, there was stuff about how -- why the -- Lutsenko, the 3 Ukrainian Prosecutor General, would want to do these things for his 4 own political reasons. 5 And then there was a section speculating on what Mayor Giuliani 6 may or may not have been motivated, if he was indeed involved in this, 7 which there was, you know -- it was speculative, including, you know, 8 references to -- most of it was about his business relationships in 9 Ukraine, but there was also reference to the fact that the Mueller 10 report had just come out, and that it somehow may be related to that. 11 And there was a reference to trying to -- by raising the Biden 12 family connection to that company, that this was something that might 13 be derogatory of Vice President Biden and therefore something that 14 Mayor Giuliani might find appealing to do. As I say, this all struck me as speculative, but I took it on board, 15 16 certainly. Q 17 18 trail of the statement that you mentioned. What, if anything, did you do next in regard to a full-throated 19 20 Before we circle back to Mayor Giuliani, let's follow the statement in defense of Ambassador Yovanovitch? A 21 At 7:15 on Monday morning, I attended a routine meeting we 22 have at that time every Monday with the Secretary of State, and I raised 23 it. 24 Q What did the Secretary of State say? 25 A I don't remember exactly what he said. UNCLASSIFIED There's -- it's a 23 UNCLASSIFIED 1 group meeting, the deputy secretary's there; the counselor, Ulrich 2 Brechbuhl, is there; Mike McKinley usually attends, and the Under 3 Secretary for Management or whoever is filling in in that role. 4 I do know that coming out of that meeting, I wrote an email to 5 her -- and I've reviewed this. 6 details. 7 Ambassador Yovanovitch immediately following that meeting saying that 8 I had briefed the Secretary; that she should get in touch with Phil 9 Reeker for more details, because I had briefed him as well; and that 10 the Secretary had asked Ulrich Brechbuhl, the counselor, to get in touch 11 with Americans who were apparently -- or thought to be involved in 12 passing this alleged information about the behavior of the Ambassador 13 into the social media arena or around into the White House or whatnot, 14 that they would talk to those individuals. 15 be on hold until such time as those conversations had been concluded. 16 17 Q I, frankly, did not remember these I researched them, and I found the email that I sent to And that a statement would When you say you reviewed these emails, you mean prior to your testimony here today -- 18 A Yes. 19 Q -- you went back and -- 20 A Yeah. 21 Q -- reviewed these emails -- 22 A That's right. 23 Q -- to prepare? 24 And who were the American individuals that Ulrich Brechbuhl was 25 tasked with reaching out to? UNCLASSIFIED 24 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A I really don't know. 2 Q Do you remember any names? 3 A No. 4 Q Were you aware of any Americans who, individuals who were I don't think I was given the names at the time. 5 promoting the narrative that was first included by John Solomon in The 6 Hill at the time? 7 A You know, I don't know what I knew at the time. 8 I -- you know, you know the names. 9 be honest with you, sir. 10 11 Q I mean, now I don't know what I knew then, to Do you recall there being a discussion of specific individuals who were promoting this narrative at that meeting? 12 A I don't think so, but I don't know for sure. 13 Q Well, would you deduce that there was at least an awareness 14 that there were some prominent Americans who were promoting this 15 narrative? 16 17 18 19 20 A Yeah. Certainly Mayor Giuliani's name was obviously prominent at that point. Q Were you aware of whether Donald Trump, Jr., had tweeted about these articles? A I don't remember when I -- I mean, at some point I knew that 21 when it happened. 22 can deduce that when it happened, I probably knew at that point. 23 24 25 Q I don't remember when it happened, but I'm sure -- I Do you recall whether you understood whether -- that Sean Hannity was promoting these narratives on his television show? A Yes, I was aware of that. UNCLASSIFIED 25 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Q And did that come up at that meeting? 2 A I don't know if it came up at that meeting. 3 at some point with the secretary. 4 Hannity. It did come up I understood that he did call Sean 5 Q You understood the Secretary called Sean Hannity? 6 A Yes. 7 Q What did you understand that the Secretary said to Sean 8 9 10 11 12 Hannity? A What the Secretary had consistently been saying, which is: If there are these allegations, I need to see what the evidence is. Q Within the State Department, as far as you knew, was there any validity to any of these allegations about Ambassador Yovanovitch? 13 A Could you repeat the question? 14 Q Within State Department circles, in terms of your 15 conversations with anyone within the State Department or your 16 communications with anyone within the State Department, did anyone in 17 the State Department view these allegations against Ambassador 18 Yovanovitch to have any validity? 19 A No. No one that I met. The Secretary of State consistently 20 maintained that he could not credit these allegations in the absence 21 of credible evidence, and I never met anyone who felt that they had 22 received that credible evidence, including the Secretary of State. 23 24 25 Q Did you have any further discussions with Ambassador Yovanovitch about a statement issued by the State Department? A I don't remember doing that. I believe that at a staff UNCLASSIFIED 26 UNCLASSIFIED 1 level, at least a more junior level, the word got back to her eventually 2 that there would be no statement. 3 Q Do you recall recommending to anyone within the State 4 Department, including potentially Phil Reeker, that Ambassador 5 Yovanovitch deny the allegations and quote, "reaffirm her loyalty, as 6 the Ambassador and foreign service officer, to the President of the 7 United States and the Constitution?" 8 9 A Yeah. We were working on -- throughout this period, I was advocating strongly for a State Department statement, a very robust 10 full-page statement of defense and praise, actually, for the 11 Ambassador's work. 12 coordination anyway, she would put out a statement. 13 debating in her embassy whether she should do it on camera or a written 14 statement. And the concept was that simultaneously, or in And they were I don't know exactly who initiated that idea. 15 I thought it was a good idea for her to demonstrate that 16 she -- there was -- because it had become so personal, that she needed 17 to remind people what foreign services are and who we were loyal to 18 and who we work for and that she was committed to that, and that that 19 would be backed up, of course, by the statement that she was also seeking 20 from the State Department. 21 Q Now, if you were a strong proponent of the statement and one 22 was ultimately not issued, who made the decision not to issue the 23 statement? 24 25 A I don't remember actually being told that. I must have been, but given my position in the State Department, it could only have been UNCLASSIFIED 27 UNCLASSIFIED 1 someone more senior to me. 2 the person. 3 Q The Secretary most likely would have been And did you ever understand any rationale or reason why your 4 recommendation of a full statement in support of Ambassador Yovanovitch 5 was not acted upon? 6 A Well, the impression we had was that it would only fuel 7 further negative reaction. And our plan at that point was to try to 8 contain this and wait it out. 9 Q How would it fuel further negative reaction? 10 A That a statement of endorsement for the Ambassador might lead 11 these various individuals, whoever they were who were conveying 12 information that was derogatory about the Ambassador, to counter it, 13 and so it would just further fuel the story and there would be more 14 back and forth. 15 16 17 18 19 So I think the judgment was that it would be better for everyone, including the Ambassador, to try to just move past this. Q Do you recall any discussions related to the statement that included the views of the President of the United States? A Yeah. I mean, one point of view was that it might even 20 provoke a public reaction from the President himself about the 21 Ambassador. 22 Q 23 24 25 And were you or -- were you aware at that time of the President's views about the Ambassador? A I don't know that I can say that affirmatively. I think there was a general impression that there was a serious problem, yes, UNCLASSIFIED 28 UNCLASSIFIED 1 but I don't know that firsthand at all. 2 Q Well, who do you know that from? 3 A It was just in the -- it was in the atmosphere. 4 I mean, I don't -- I can't say who I learned that from. 5 Q Well, let's unpack this for a second. 6 If there was some concern that the President would issue a 7 statement or a comment in contradiction to the State Department's 8 defense of Ambassador Yovanovitch, presumably someone within the State 9 Department knew that that was a possibility, right? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And who do you think -- do you recall who that was? 12 A I don't. 13 Q If it was in the atmosphere within the State Department, what 14 was your understanding -- what was your understanding of the 15 President's views towards Ambassador Yovanovitch at that time? 16 17 A Well, the President actually did go public on March 24 and said, "We need less of these jokers as Ambassadors." 18 Q I think that was the President's son, Donald Trump, Jr. 19 A I see. 20 Q The President around that time did re-tweet the -- one of 21 John Solomon's articles that was entitled, "As Russia Collusion Fades, 22 Ukranian Plot to Help Clinton Emerges". 23 But I guess, just taking a step back, what was -- at that time, 24 as you recall, and based on your refreshing your recollection with your 25 emails, what did you understand the President's concerns about UNCLASSIFIED 29 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Ambassador Yovanovitch to be? 2 A I didn't know. I found the entire thing confusing. 3 Bear in mind, I have global responsibilities. I don't follow 4 social media. 5 don't have electronics in my office, so I don't know exactly what's 6 happening on the social media unless someone alerts me. 7 center does alert us. 8 9 I'm not -- my office is a SCIF as well, so I'm not -- I Our operations So it is not as though I'm constantly following these matters on social media. It was just -- we knew we had a problem. 10 was a White House problem with Ambassador Yovanovitch. 11 definitely a factor. 12 was being evaluated by the Secretary of State. 13 14 15 We knew there That was And that, I think, you know, was something that I would also add that counselor, Ulrich Brechbuhl, was the point person in dealing with this set of issues. Q But just to clarify, there was concern, am I correct, that 16 if you did issue a statement, it would provoke a reaction either from 17 the President or other allies of the President? 18 A I think that was the reasoning behind not going forth with 19 the statement, was that there would be, as I said, a negative reaction 20 in the public arena, which was the very thing we were trying to bring 21 to an end. 22 23 24 25 Q And do you recall anyone enunciating or elaborating on that concern? A I can't pin it down to a specific conversation or individual. I'm sorry. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 Q 30 And you specified that Ulrich Brechbuhl was the point person. What did that mean as it related to this matter? A Well, the counselor plays a quasi chief of staff role. 4 There's no chief of staff at the State Department under Secretary 5 Pompeo, and that often involves dealing with sensitive issues that are 6 potentially, you know, related to personnel or sensitive issues that 7 touch on domestic politics or White House, as opposed to NSC-White House 8 matters. 9 10 11 Q And do you know following -- well, withdrawn. Did you have any subsequent conversations on this issue with the Secretary himself after that 7:15 Monday morning meeting? 12 A Which? 13 Q Of Ambassador Yovanovitch and -- well, the issue of the 14 The issue of the -- statement, I should say. 15 A 16 MR. GOLDMAN: 17 THE CHAIRMAN: 18 No one believed that there was any merit to these allegations 19 20 21 22 I don't know, to be honest with you. Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to try to clarify things. against the Ambassador. AMBASSADOR HALE: Is that right? No one that I talked to at the State Department. That's correct. THE CHAIRMAN: The Ambassador wanted a statement of support from 23 the Secretary, did she not? 24 AMBASSADOR HALE: 25 THE CHAIRMAN: That's correct. You recommended it? UNCLASSIFIED 31 UNCLASSIFIED 1 AMBASSADOR HALE: 2 THE CHAIRMAN: 3 AMBASSADOR HALE: 4 THE CHAIRMAN: 5 AMBASSADOR HALE: 6 7 That's correct. Secretary Reeker recommended it? Correct. Mr. McKinley recommended it? At that point, I don't remember Ambassador McKinley being involved in this discussion, but he may have been. THE CHAIRMAN: And there was a decision made not to issue the 8 statement, despite your recommendation and others. 9 seniority at the Department, that decision to refuse the statement 10 could have only come from the Secretary. 11 AMBASSADOR HALE: 12 THE CHAIRMAN: 13 14 And given your Is that right? That's right. But you don't recall why the Secretary told you he was turning down this unanimous request? AMBASSADOR HALE: I don't remember him coming back to me 15 directly, which is not unusual when it comes to press statements. 16 have a press -- whole press operation and a spokesperson, an assistant 17 secretary who would normally, once -- if I make a recommendation, which 18 in itself is unusual for me to be specific about doing something like 19 that, it will often come back in other channels through the press 20 spokesperson, it might have come back through Ulrich. 21 sent it to me directly. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: 23 We He might have I honestly don't remember. But it was unusual for you to make this kind of recommendation? 24 AMBASSADOR HALE: 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Correct. And you think you might have gotten the answer, UNCLASSIFIED 32 UNCLASSIFIED 1 not from the Secretary, but through the Secretary's press person? 2 AMBASSADOR HALE: 3 THE CHAIRMAN: I just don't remember, Mr. Chairman. But you've conveyed also that the message that got 4 back to you was that this was in everybody's interest, including the 5 Ambassador? 6 AMBASSADOR HALE: 7 THE CHAIRMAN: 8 [Nonverbal response.] But you acknowledge the Ambassador didn't think that was in her best interest, right? AMBASSADOR HALE: 9 The Ambassador had said to me that -- in that 10 conversation and email exchanges that I mentioned over the weekend, 11 that the statement we put out saying that this was an outright 12 fabrication had helped stabilize the media environment in Kiev. 13 the problem was back in the United States with the U.S. media 14 environment. 15 problem. But So she was looking for a statement to help deal with that 16 And so it's not just the Ambassador's judgment, obviously, but 17 also a judgment of the people here as to what would be most effective 18 in dealing with that particular media event. THE CHAIRMAN: 19 Well, I understand that, but you testified just 20 a moment ago that the decision was made it was in everybody's best 21 interest, including the Ambassador's, not to issue the statement, but 22 that was not the Ambassador's view, was it? 23 statement from the top of the State Department, including the 24 Secretary, supporting her against these baseless allegations, did she 25 not? UNCLASSIFIED The Ambassador wanted a UNCLASSIFIED 1 AMBASSADOR HALE: 2 THE CHAIRMAN: She did. Mr. Goldman. BY MR. GOLDMAN: 3 4 33 Q Did you -- do you recall whether there was -- do you recall 5 any more specifics about what the Secretary or other senior officers 6 in the State Department were concerned about the White House reaction? 7 Do you remember any further specifics about the concerns about a 8 blowback to a statement? 9 A No. 10 Q Was the President, as you recall, specifically mentioned in 11 that meeting? 12 A The meeting on Monday morning? 13 Q Yes. 14 A I don't know. 15 Q So once the statement was put on hold, I believe you I have no record of that. 16 testified, what happened next with regard to this -- the State 17 Department's reaction to these smears against Ambassador Yovanovitch? 18 A Well, there were a series of emails about the smear campaign, 19 and basically we moved on. 20 on that -- at least I stopped working on that issue. 21 Q For whatever reason, we stopped working And you testified earlier that the Secretary called Sean 22 Hannity. 23 Secretary or Ulrich Brechbuhl, reach out to any other individuals to 24 sort of tamp down these allegations? 25 A Do you know whether anyone else from, whether it be the The last I heard really was that Monday morning meeting. UNCLASSIFIED I 34 UNCLASSIFIED 1 may have heard more information. I just don't have a record of it. 2 I have no recollection of it. 3 wasn't paying a great deal of attention to it. I was not involved in doing it, so I 4 Q Do you know whether anyone reached out to Rudy Giuliani? 5 A Again, in researching the materials available to me for this 6 deposition, I did ask to and saw the routine documents that our 7 operations center keeps about the calls that the Secretary of State 8 is making. 9 two calls to Mayor Giuliani, once on March 28 and again the next day So I don't believe I knew this at the time, but he did make 10 on March 29. 11 Q And that Monday, what date was that? 12 A March 25. 13 Q And just so the record is clear, you are looking at a document 14 to refresh your recollection. Can you -- 15 A That's true. 16 Q -- describe what that document is? 17 A This is a document that my attorney worked on based on public 18 information, information released by this committee, and information 19 available to me based on my recollection or access to documents. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Secretary, you've given us the dates of two 21 calls between Secretary Pompeo and Secretary Giuliani. 22 calls precede the decision that was made not to issue the statement 23 of support to Ambassador Yovanovitch? 24 25 AMBASSADOR HALE: I don't know, frankly. Did those two I can't pinpoint chronologically when we were informed that there would be no statement. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 1 THE CHAIRMAN: 35 You mentioned, though, these two calls in the 2 context of discussions about trying to find out what the basis was for 3 these attacks on the Ambassador. 4 likely preceded the decision on the statement? 5 AMBASSADOR HALE: 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Does that indicate to you that that I honestly don't know, sir. You mentioned that -- what the Secretary had 7 stated to Mr. Hannity. 8 what Mr. Hannity's response was why he was pushing out this smear? 9 AMBASSADOR HALE: Did you find out from the Secretary or others I believe that the Secretary's takeaway from 10 the conversation was that there was no evidence that was credible 11 about -- to support these allegations. 12 13 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that something Hannity acknowledged or is that something that he deduced from the conversation with Hannity? AMBASSADOR HALE: It's what I deduced, really, from 15 the -- hearing from the Secretary after the call that the Secretary 16 believed that there wasn't any evidence to back up these allegations. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: BY MR. GOLDMAN: 18 19 20 Mr. Goldman. Q Do you know whether -- did you ever hear anything about the Secretary's conversations with Mr. Giuliani? 21 A No. 22 Q But is it true that at the time that Secretary Pompeo was 23 focused to some degree on whether there was any evidence to support 24 these allegations? 25 A Who was focused? UNCLASSIFIED 36 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Q Secretary Pompeo. 2 A Throughout this period, the Secretary, whenever these issues 3 came up of the so-called smear campaign against Ambassador Yovanovitch, 4 said that he wasn't going to act upon them unless somebody could 5 demonstrate that there was credible evidence that backed them up. 6 at no point, to my knowledge, was that evidence presented. 7 8 9 10 11 Q And Do you know whether he asked Mayor Giuliani for any evidence to back up the smear campaign? A I don't know from firsthand knowledge, nor at the time. I was not aware of these calls at the time. I've seen reports since then about this, but that was all after 12 these -- I only learned from the news reports that came out of the 13 whistleblower and so forth. 14 Q You didn't understand from Secretary Pompeo that at the time, 15 whether you knew about these specific calls or not, but that he had 16 asked Mayor Giuliani for any evidence? 17 A I did not know that. 18 Q Did you come to learn about a submission that 19 ultimately -- of documents and information that ultimately made its 20 way to the Office of Inspector General in the spring of this year? 21 22 A I knew nothing about that until, again, the news reports came out of this committee's activities about that. 23 Q And that's the State Inspector General, right, that -- 24 A That's right. 25 Q Did you do any follow-up on any of those materials within UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 1 the State Department to determine how they came in to the Department? 2 A Well, I didn't know about it. 3 Q No. 4 37 Once you learned about it more recently, did you do any -- make any inquiries about these documents? A 5 No. I mean, at that point, the investigation was already 6 underway, and it was clear that anything I might do or any of us might 7 do could look like we were trying to involve ourselves in trying to 8 influence, you know, witnesses or whatnot, so, no, I did not act at 9 all. 10 11 Q Did you learn whether these materials were given directly to the Secretary himself? 12 A I did not, no. 13 Q Have you reviewed those materials? 14 A I have not. 15 Q Are you aware that it is information relate -- including some 16 of these articles as well as other information related to the same 17 topic? 18 A I only know what I've seen in the open media. 19 Q You said that Mayor Giuliani's role was -- around this time 20 in Ukraine matters, was, I think you said, quote "hard to believe?" 21 unquote. 22 A What did you mean by that? There was an email from George Kent that Phil Reeker 23 forwarded to me right at the beginning of this -- well, some time in 24 the late March period, and in it, Mr. Kent conveyed information from 25 two journalists, so Ukranian journalists that he had talked to who made UNCLASSIFIED 38 UNCLASSIFIED 1 a number of allegations, including that the President -- they were 2 quoting Giuliani saying to a Ukranian that the President really wants 3 Ambassador Yovanovitch to go. 4 was that this was a roundabout way the President was trying to get rid 5 of the Ambassador through this smear campaign. And this seemed to be -- the implication I found it at the beginning very -- I found it very hard to 6 7 understand why a President of the United States would do it that way 8 when he can just -- I mean, all Ambassadors are Presidential 9 appointees, they serve at the pleasure of the President, so it 10 didn't -- it didn't add up to me. 11 be. 12 I didn't understand why that would Plus you have to, again, appreciate my career. I've served in 13 environments of a great deal of corruption where information is 14 manipulated, and I'm not -- was not prepared to believe on face these 15 kinds of allegations. 16 whatever motivations they may have. People make these charges all the time for 17 So that's one of the reasons why I called Ambassador Yovanovitch, 18 was I wanted to get straight from her her best most -- you know, the 19 senior person on the ground, the assessment of what was happening, and 20 she gave that to me here, not really an assessment of what was happening, 21 but as I said earlier in this deposition, her speculation on the motives 22 of various individuals. 23 24 25 Q Did she indicate to you that she was aware that Mr. Giuliani was in communication with Mr. Lutsenko? A I don't remember that being stated clearly, but she was UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 1 39 talking about two people in that email, Lutsenko and Mayor Giuliani. 2 Q What did she say about Mayor Giuliani? 3 A She was speculating that he might have motives to perpetuate 4 these allegations about the Ambassador. 5 Q What were those motives? 6 A As I mentioned, they seemed to focus on his business 7 practices, his business connections in Ukraine, but she also mentioned 8 the fact that the Mueller report had just come out, and she mentioned 9 that he might have an interest in reminding the public of the 10 investigation -- or the affair related to the company that 11 Vice-President Biden's son was on the board because that would be bad 12 news -- bad for the former Vice-President. 13 14 Q You were obviously aware at this time that Mayor Giuliani was the personal attorney for the President, right? 15 A Well, it was in the news. 16 Q Right. 17 I mean, I didn't know myself. I mean, you have no reason to think that when Mayor Giuliani said that, that he was making a false statement? 18 A I've -- 19 Q He said that he was. 20 A I found it very hard to believe. 21 Q Well, I'm just talking about the fact that he was the personal 22 attorney for the -- 23 A I understand that, yeah. 24 Q You found it hard to believe that he was the personal attorney 25 for the President? UNCLASSIFIED 40 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 A No. I found it hard to believe the journalists who were stating what he allegedly was stating. Q But you also had information from Ambassador Yovanovitch that was not relying on those journalists, right? 5 A Right. 6 Q Did you find that hard to believe? 7 A I wouldn't say I found it hard to believe. I found the whole 8 thing puzzling, I suppose would be the best word to use. 9 not making connections between Giuliani and the President, which is 10 what George -- the email that George Kent had conveyed, was conveying 11 information that Ukranian journalists were saying that there -- that 12 Mayor Giuliani was asserting that these activities were on behalf of 13 the President. 14 initially. 15 Q But she was That was the piece that I found hard to credit And you found it hard to credit because there were obviously 16 official channels that the President could go through to get to the 17 same objective? 18 A Correct. 19 Q But you did know at the time that Rudy Giuliani was the 20 President's personal attorney? 21 A It's been in the news, yes. I mean, I -- 22 Q I understand you didn't have a conversation with 23 Mr. Giuliani or the President about it, but you -- that was very 24 public -- 25 A Yes. It's well known. UNCLASSIFIED 41 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Q -- and undisputed, right? 2 A It's well known in our country, yes. 3 Q Okay. And you -- so as we move forward, let's focus a little 4 bit on the allegations in these press reports that were unrelated to 5 Ambassador Yovanovitch. You're aware that there were -- you mentioned the "do not 6 7 prosecute" list and that she had said -- she had disparaged President 8 Trump, that that was included, but you also were aware of other 9 allegations that were in these articles too. Is that correct? 10 A I'd have to reread the articles. 11 Q Well, you just mentioned this Biden and company that Joe 12 Biden's son was a member of the board, right? Was that one? 13 A What's the question, sir? 14 Q You were aware that there were other allegations in these 15 news articles unrelated to Ambassador Yovanovitch? 16 A I suppose. I mean, I was looking at the articles. 17 Our focus was on the issue before the State Department, which was 18 the allegations directed at our Ambassador. 19 our conversations was what was the best way to deal with that. Q 20 And the focus of all of Well, did you receive, directly or through a forward, an 21 email from George Kent where he outlined the four narratives that were 22 included in these press reports and other allegations that flowed from 23 them? 24 25 A I don't remember the phrase "four narratives," but there were certainly emails from the European Affairs Bureau speculating on what UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 42 was happening. Again, my focus was on the issue that we had to face, which was what would be the best way to deal with it. Q Right. And I guess what I'm trying to get at is putting aside 5 the Ambassador Yovanovitch aspect of this, do you recall there being 6 another aspect of these allegations unrelated to Ambassador 7 Yovanovitch that you had to deal with? 8 9 10 11 A My focus was on the issue of Ambassador Yovanovitch and the issue of a statement. As I said, Counselor Brechbuhl was the point person on dealing with this entire set of matters. Q Okay. When Ambassador Yovanovitch mentioned to you that 12 after the Mueller report came out and there was a -- there were 13 allegations of -- related to a company that the Vice-President's son 14 served on the board of that might hurt the Vice-President -- former 15 Vice-President, what, if anything, did you do in connection to that 16 allegation? 17 A The allegation about the vice-president's son? 18 Q Yes. 19 A Nothing. 20 Q Nothing. Were you aware that there were allegations related 21 to Ukraine's involvement in 2016 election interference here in the 22 United States? 23 24 25 A Somewhat. Again, my focus really was pretty much on the issue of our Ambassador and whether or not to put out a statement. Q I'm really just trying to establish when you first heard of UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 1 43 these allegations related to Biden, the Bidens, and the 2016 election. 2 A I honestly don't know, sir. 3 Q But you did indicate that at least in Ambassador 4 Yovanovitch's email to you on March 24th, that she included something 5 about the Bidens in that? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Okay. Yes. Now, you indicated that it died down a little bit 8 after this initial reaction and the initial specific statement 9 debunking the allegations. 10 11 12 Did there come a time a little bit later when issues surrounding Ambassador Yovanovitch flared again? A Yes. It was around -- well, it was -- on April 25, I 13 attended a meeting chaired by the Deputy Secretary of State with 14 Counselor Brechbuhl and the Director General of the Foreign Service, 15 Carol Perez, which is basically like the head of our human resources 16 division, to discuss what we learned of, I think probably a little bit 17 prior to that meeting, that the President had lost confidence in the 18 Ambassador. 19 her assignment there in a way that brought this matter to a conclusion. 20 21 22 Q And the purpose of that meeting was to discuss how to end How did the State Department learn that the President had lost confidence in Ambassador Yovanovitch? A I don't know. I don't remember exactly how I learned of it, 23 but I don't believe it would have come through any other channel but 24 the Secretary of State. 25 Q Why do you not -- why do you believe that? UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED A 1 44 Because it didn't come from below me, and so there are limited 2 options, and the Secretary of State and the Counselor were obviously 3 the people who were involved in this, I guess. Q 4 5 And do you recall hearing any reason why the President had lost confidence in Ambassador Yovanovitch? 6 A We were not given a reason. 7 Q When you say "we," who do you mean? 8 A Myself, the deputy, the people in -- that I mentioned who 9 were in the meeting. 10 Q Who ran that meeting? 11 A The deputy secretary. 12 Q And did he indicate that he had any conversations with 13 Secretary Pompeo about this issue? A 14 15 I don't remember. My guess is he had, that's why he was convoking the meeting. Q 16 So it's your understanding, based on common practice and 17 usual procedures within the State Department, that the -- that the 18 deputy secretary called this meeting because the Secretary had relayed 19 to him that the President had lost confidence in Ambassador 20 Yovanovitch? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Now, this was almost a month after these articles had come 23 out. 24 to the articles at the end of March. 25 And you had indicated there was a flurry of activity in responding Do you recall having any communications about this issue in April UNCLASSIFIED 45 UNCLASSIFIED 1 leading up to this April 25th meeting? A 2 Yeah. There was an email from George Kent in that -- we 3 guess it was in that timeframe. I don't have it with me -- of the same 4 nature of what we were just describing. 5 it may have been in late April. 6 on -- I can't answer that question based 7 Q You mean early April or -- 8 A No. 9 It may have been in late March, My records indicate that there was an exchange of emails on press guidance and how to deal with it in late March. And 10 that -- remember I mentioned the March 21st to March 25th timeframe 11 when I finally heard from the Ambassador. 12 And then my notes reflect that there may have been, but it's 13 undated, another email from George Kent -- sorry -- that same week that 14 we heard about the President's position that was of the same nature. 15 And so what I'm saying is I don't know if what I was just describing 16 about these two Ukranian journalists and so forth, whether that was 17 in late March or late April. 18 brought to you today. 19 MR. GOLDMAN: 20 THE CHAIRMAN: I can't pin that down based on what I Mr. Chairman. On the information by those two Ukranian 21 journalists, and I don't know whether you're referring to that 22 information or the information that Ambassador Yovanovitch provided 23 in terms of what she thought the rationale for some of the smear campaign 24 might be, with respect to, I think it was in the journalists, if I 25 understood what you said earlier, you said you found it hard to credit UNCLASSIFIED 46 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 initially. Did you later find reason to credit either what was suggested in those articles or what was suggested by the Ambassador? AMBASSADOR HALE: Yeah. That's why I think that email was in 5 late March, because it was earlier in the period of time, but I can't 6 pin the date down based on the records that I had with me. 7 Well, it just became more and more obvious that this was an unusual 8 set of things that were happening and that the mayor was involved. 9 as I said, by the April 20 -- what was it -- the April 25th meeting, 10 it was self-evident that the Secretary -- that the President had lost 11 confidence in the Ambassador. 12 And, Now -- so I didn't -- I did say I initially couldn't credit that. 13 It just -- over time, it became much more confusing to me what was 14 happening, so I suspended -- in fact, if I can use the word, I was more 15 prepared to suspend my disbelief than I was when I was first was 16 confronted with this information. UNCLASSIFIED 47 UNCLASSIFIED 1 [10:11 a.m.] 2 3 THE CHAIRMAN: And can you, you mentioned I think two occasions 4 in which the Secretary called Rudy Giuliani. 5 occasions, or were there more occasions that you found when you were 6 reviewing the call records that you were looking at? 7 AMBASSADOR HALE: 8 THE CHAIRMAN: 9 AMBASSADOR HALE: 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Were those the only two Those were the two occasions that I found. And I think you said those were what dates again? March 28 and March 29. In prior testimony, there was reference to your 11 special assistant sending an email to the European Bureau press office 12 that read: "P said no statement." 13 AMBASSADOR HALE: 14 THE CHAIRMAN: That was March 25. Are you P? Yes. Do you recall asking your special assistant to 15 send an email, or the circumstances around her sending an email or him 16 sending an email that read: 17 AMBASSADOR HALE: "P says no statement"? I don't remember that specifically, but it's 18 consistent with the note -- the email that I sent to Ambassador 19 Yovanovitch that same day saying that there would be no statements now. 20 But after these various contacts were made with Americans who were 21 involved in the social media effort against the Ambassador, we would 22 be back to look at whether or not there would be a statement. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: So on March 25 then: "P says no statement," that 24 was not necessarily indefinite, but at that point, the decision had 25 been made to make no statement. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 1 AMBASSADOR HALE: 2 be issuing a statement. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: That's right. 48 That day we were not going to And then a few days later you have those two calls 4 between Secretary Pompeo and Mr. Giuliani, and after those calls, the 5 status remained the same. 6 AMBASSADOR HALE: 7 THE CHAIRMAN: 10 That's right. Mr. Goldman. BY MR. GOLDMAN: 8 9 There would be no statement. Q Do you know if anyone, either Secretary Pompeo or Counselor Brechbuhl called Donald Trump Jr.? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q Did you have -- did you have any conversations with 13 Ambassador Gordon Sondland about this issue around this time? 14 A No. 15 Q Do you know whether he was involved in responding to these 16 allegations about Ambassador Yovanovitch in any way? 17 A No. 18 Q Were you aware at this time in late March early April whether 19 Ambassador Sondland had taken an interest or been involved at all with 20 Ukraine? 21 A 22 with the E.U. 23 Division accompanied him on a trip that drew attention to the Russian 24 occupation and reflected a jointness between us and the European Union. 25 Q I was aware that he had taken a trip to Ukraine in connection My counterpart in the European Union External Affairs So you viewed that as a trip in his official capacity as the UNCLASSIFIED 49 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Ambassador of the European Union? 2 A Correct. 3 Q Other than that, were you aware by April that Ambassador 4 Sondland had taken extra interest in Ukraine beyond that one trip? 5 A No, I was not aware. 6 Q Let's go back to this April 25th meeting. 7 8 9 What do you remember about that meeting? A I remember that we discussed the fact that the President had lost confidence in the Ambassador, and that the discussion focused on 10 how to implement that position that he had taken in a way that 11 caused -- that limited the controversy, and, you know, the damage that 12 that might do to the Ambassador's own reputation and to the State 13 Department and to the embassy in Kyiv so that we could all continue 14 to do our work. 15 So the decision was made to bring the Ambassador back to 16 Washington in order to have a consultation with her on how best to 17 achieve that. 18 19 Q By the end of April, were you aware of any additional evidence to support the allegations against her? 20 A No. 21 Q In that meeting, was there any discussion of the validity 22 23 of these allegations? A No. No one, to my knowledge, believed that they had seen 24 anything that would suggest that the Ambassador had done anything 25 wrong. So that was not the focus of the conversation. UNCLASSIFIED 50 UNCLASSIFIED 1 The focus of the conversation was that we were given a decision 2 by the President that he had lost confidence in the Ambassador and our 3 task was to implement that. 4 Q But as far as the State Department was concerned, Ambassador 5 Yovanovitch was doing a stellar job representing the United States 6 official policy in Ukraine, is that right? 7 A I felt she had been doing an exceptional job, yes. 8 Q And you were unaware of anyone either above you or below you 9 who disagreed with that assessment? Is that right? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q So what happened, after this meeting it was decided that 12 Ambassador Yovanovitch would be called back. 13 involvement in that process after this April 25 meeting? 14 15 16 17 A I left on a trip on April 26. and I was gone until May 6. Q Did you have any more I left for a long trip to Asia I will stop there. So you did not meet with Ambassador Yovanovitch when she returned? 18 A No, I was out of town for the whole period she was back. 19 Q And do you know what ultimately was decided by the Department 20 21 in dealing with this issue related to Ambassador Yovanovitch? A Yeah, I mean, in general, the Deputy Secretary met with her 22 and he had the conversation that I think all -- he discussed himself 23 during his confirmation hearing the other day, and the gist of the plan 24 was that she would go back to Kyiv and relatively quickly pack up her 25 personal effects, meet with her staff, and find a graceful way to leave. UNCLASSIFIED 51 UNCLASSIFIED 1 And we were going to issue a -- and did issue a statement that 2 was -- didn't refer to the issue of confidence and just said that she 3 was rotating out of Ukraine. 4 Q And that statement actually indicated that her return was 5 as planned. 6 A Was that accurate though? No, in fact, I was, again, traveling at that time, so I was 7 sort of at times behind the curve and the press guidance and whatnot, 8 and I have, again, in researching documents available to me for this 9 deposition, I reread an email exchange on that where my chief of staff 10 11 was reminding me that I had not cleared on this press statement. So I looked at it, and I said, please delete the words "as 12 planned." 13 with those two words in it. 14 too late. 15 to get it out. 16 Q It's too cute, and it's not exactly accurate. I don't know why. You know, press guidance has to go. It went out My guess is that I was Sometimes you just have And it just went forward without my input. Did you ever learn what Ambassador Reeker and Ambassador 17 Yovanovitch had agreed upon in terms of the timing of her extension 18 in March? 19 20 21 22 A No, I don't believe that it was ever agreed upon in an official way. Q But you understood that this recall was not as planned related to Ambassador Yovanovitch? 23 A 24 THE CHAIRMAN: 25 Oh, absolutely. want to ask you now. Secretary, we may get into this later, but I just It seems like an appropriate point. UNCLASSIFIED 52 UNCLASSIFIED 1 We don't have the advantage of the documents that you have been 2 referring to. 3 by the State Department. 4 5 6 To my knowledge, not a single document has been provided Have you been part of discussions about why those documents are being withheld from Congress? AMBASSADOR HALE: It's not in my area of responsibility. It's 7 handled by the Under Secretary for Management Affairs. 8 that period of time when this first developed, I heard from him on the 9 fly -- we didn't sit down and have a meeting, but I was sort of standing 10 in the hallway, what directions -- what our intentions were, what the 11 directions were from the White House on this matter. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: 13 AMBASSADOR HALE: I did, during And what did he tell you? I just want to emphasize, it was not as if I 14 was hearing the final outcome of this. 15 of it. 16 search. 17 that, we got notice from the White House that we were not to share these 18 documents. We were and have put out directions. We've done the document The documents have been gathered. And while we were doing 19 THE CHAIRMAN: 20 AMBASSADOR HALE: Did they give you a reason? They may have. 21 myself in this. 22 the question accurately. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: 24 25 I just was getting snippets It's not my area. I don't -- I didn't involve So I just -- I honestly can't answer And when you had this conversation in passing, what explanation was given to you then? AMBASSADOR HALE: I really don't remember the specific UNCLASSIFIED 53 UNCLASSIFIED 1 explanation. It was just clear that the White House did not want 2 agencies to provide documents to the committee. 3 back to you. 4 have it. I'm sure it's in writing, frankly. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: 6 Thank you, Mr. Goldman. 9 10 11 12 13 I'm interested in how it was explained to you. Q Let's just followup on that. You said that all of the documents had, to your knowledge, been gathered and were prepared to be provided to the committees. A Is that right? They were in the process of being gathered and they have now been gathered, yes. Q Okay. So if the Department decided to provide them to the 14 committees, that could happen quite quickly. 15 understanding? 16 I just -- I don't BY MR. GOLDMAN: 7 8 I can try to get that A Well, we have gathered the documents. Is that your I'm not -- I've never 17 really dealt with this matter before. 18 of responsibility so I have not been asking the questions about how 19 long it would take us to respond, but I'm sure it could be done, you 20 know, straightforwardly. 21 Q And again, it is not my area Were you aware of a letter written by the Secretary to the 22 committees on or about, I believe, October 1 related to this 23 investigation? 24 A Vaguely. 25 Q Where the Secretary accused the committee of bullying UNCLASSIFIED 54 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 members of the Department? A Yeah, I -- vaguely. I can't tell if I saw it internally or 3 if I just read about it in the media. 4 have entailed my clearance in any ways. 5 Q It was not a document that would Did you receive a memo to file written by George Kent related 6 to that letter and the State Department's response to the subpoena from 7 the committees? 8 A Mike McKinley forwarded to me an email from George. It was 9 a memo to the record in September in which -- I'm sorry, October 3rd, 10 George wrote for the record, a memo describing a meeting that he and 11 other officials of the European Affairs Bureau had had with a lawyer 12 from the legal adviser's office and a representative of the 13 congressional relations office in which George said that the lawyer 14 had behaved in an intimidating and unprofessional way. 15 lot of detail in there. 16 There was a I don't remember if the letter -- the Secretary of State's letter 17 was referenced there. 18 the issue of an officer who ultimately reported to me being intimidated, 19 by his account, from the Legal Affairs Office. 20 It may well have been. My focus was really on Mike forwarded this to me -- George had not sent it to me -- late 21 on a Friday, I believe. I discussed it with the Under Secretary for 22 Management Affairs and we kind of went back and forth. 23 inconclusive. 24 officers about this matter. 25 Affairs Bureau, the acting head. It was The next morning on a Saturday I spoke to a number of I talked to the head of our European I spoke to the Legal Affairs adviser. UNCLASSIFIED 55 UNCLASSIFIED 1 I spoke to the Under Secretary for Management again, and I spoke to 2 my chief of staff. 3 I directed that the legal adviser remove that lawyer from the file 4 of George Kent, and assign a different lawyer. My impression from the 5 conversation was that he may have already been moving in that direction, 6 but in any event, I wanted to make sure that that was the case and there 7 was no argument about it. 8 And we had a back and forth on the appropriateness of my going 9 to meet with George and these officers to make amends and introduce 10 them to the new lawyer. 11 Saturday, so we came back to the office on Monday morning. 12 Monday when I asked the status of the effort to get the meeting together, 13 I was told that because George had an attorney, a private attorney, 14 that the legal adviser had to deal with the attorney and not with George 15 directly. 16 I decided I was going to do that on that By midday And so that was what was causing the delay. And then I was told either late that Monday or the next day, 17 Tuesday, that the attorney on behalf of George had declined the offer 18 of a meeting with me. 19 20 21 Q Our time is up, so we will circle back to that. But just before we do, one last question, if I could. Did you get the sense from any career members of the State 22 Department that they felt bullied by the committee's requests for them 23 to testify? 24 A Bullied by the committee, no, I had not heard that, no. 25 Q All right. I yield to the minority. UNCLASSIFIED 56 UNCLASSIFIED 1 MR. JORDAN: Ambassador, you were for two statements, I think you 2 said earlier. You supported a statement from the Department in support 3 of Ambassador Yovanovitch, but then you also supported a statement from 4 the Ambassador, is that right? 5 AMBASSADOR HALE: 6 MR. JORDAN: 7 Correct. And did you or did the Department convey that to the Ambassador that she should put forward a statement as well? 8 AMBASSADOR HALE: There were email exchanges where I said I 9 thought it was a good idea. I don't remember whether or not I 10 specifically spoke to the Ambassador about it. 11 prepared to do something. 12 MR. JORDAN: 13 AMBASSADOR HALE: I know that she was And why didn't she do something? Well, because the -- it was clear that the 14 Department was not going to be issuing a statement. 15 these would be two parallel statements. 16 17 MR. JORDAN: Did she submit any type of draft or anything to you or anyone else at the Department? 18 AMBASSADOR HALE: 19 MR. JORDAN: I never saw drafts, sir. Okay, great. Mr. Castor. BY MR. CASTOR: 20 21 The concept was Q The email from George Kent that I believe was forwarded to 22 you about the interaction he had with the lawyer, did you ever get any 23 information about the lawyer's side of that account? 24 25 A No, I talked to the legal adviser, and he agreed that it was -- we needed to assign a different lawyer to the case. UNCLASSIFIED 57 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 Q Okay. So it was concluded that the lawyer may have acted in a way that was -A The legal adviser -- acting legal adviser, I should 4 say -- had ample opportunity to explain to me a different account. 5 did not. 6 there. 7 I had no reason to disbelieve George. He There were witnesses My interest was not in investigating the behavior of this lawyer. 8 The L was the designation for the legal adviser. 9 me, but I wanted, very swiftly, to make sure that George did not feel 10 intimidated and, therefore, regardless of what actually happened, it 11 was important to put new people on it. 12 13 Q Okay. They don't work for Did you ever have any communications with Ambassador McKinley? 14 A 15 this point. 16 Q Okay. 17 A Mike McKinley's role? 18 Q Yeah. 19 A His title was Senior Adviser, I believe, to the Secretary 20 I don't remember getting back to him. He had resigned at What was his role? of State. 21 Q And what functions was he performing? 22 A Ad hoc advisory on matters that he and the Secretary wanted 23 to discuss. 24 Department. 25 Q He did not have an operational role in the State Okay. And do you know what matters he got involved with? UNCLASSIFIED 58 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A It would vary over the time, you know, depending on what is 2 on the Secretary's plate and what issues are in front of us. 3 often focus on those issues where he had had personal experience where 4 he had served as an Ambassador. 5 Q Okay. He would Did you ever have any communications with him about 6 Ambassador Yovanovitch during the dependency of this -- since the late 7 March time period through her recall? 8 9 10 A No, I have no recollection of Mike really being in the picture in these meetings on these emails at all. Q Okay. There were a couple instances where a 11 discussion -- or discussion about making a statement of support for 12 Ambassador Yovanovitch came to the floor? 13 A Yeah. If you are referring to Mike in that connection, that 14 came much later. 15 transcript of -- the White House released the transcript of the phone 16 call with President Zelensky. 17 Q Okay. That was after the -- after the release of the So there were two time periods where State 18 Department, senior State Department officials were discussing 19 potentially a statement of support of Ambassador Yovanovitch in the 20 March-April timeframe. 21 forward on that. 22 transcript? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q And what can you tell us about the discussion, communication 25 Ultimately, a decision was made not to go And then, again, after they released the call about the statement during that period? UNCLASSIFIED 59 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A On September 28, Ambassador McKinley sent an email to a 2 number of senior colleagues, including myself, and he proposed that 3 there should be a very strong statement of support for the Ambassador, 4 who, of course, had already left the post, and he also -- he was coming 5 in and out of my office that week, so I think that probably on at least 6 one occasion he may have suggested that directly to me. 7 that's my answer. 8 9 10 Q Okay. And so -- sir, And were you in favor of a statement at that point in time? A Well, in general, I thought that, you know, I understood what 11 Mike was doing, and I agreed with the content of the statement. 12 didn't, based on my prior experience in the first episode, it just 13 seemed to me extremely unlikely that that statement was going to be 14 issued, but I had no concern about proposing it. 15 16 Q At this point, Ambassador Yovanovitch had returned to the United States. She is at Georgetown at this time? 17 A That's right. 18 Q And so was the statement a public one that was being 19 20 I discussed? A Yes, I believe Mike's email suggested that there be a strong, 21 on-the-record public statement by the Department of State, maybe in 22 the Secretary's name -- I don't know that -- defending her. 23 Q And do you know if that related to her transition out of being 24 the Ambassador, or specifically to her mention in the President's call 25 transcript? UNCLASSIFIED 60 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 A It was the transcript that I think prompted Mike to make that proposal. Q Was there ever any discussion of sending an internal email to the State Department officials? 5 A Not that I remember, no. 6 Q Okay. 7 So Ambassador McKinley's interest here was a public statement? 8 A That's how I reacted to it at the time, yes. 9 Q Okay. 10 11 And to the best of your recollection, Ambassador McKinley was not involved during the March 25 to April 25 timeframe? A That's right. To my knowledge, I mean, he sits right next 12 to the Secretary, so there are lots of things that I don't know about 13 that go on between them. 14 Q Okay. But to the best of your knowledge, he didn't advocate 15 for keeping Ambassador Yovanovitch during this time period when he 16 was -- 17 A Right. He was not part of the conversation, to my 18 knowledge -- at least any conversation I was part of. Although, I 19 mentioned that 7:15 meeting after Ambassador Yovanovitch's email on 20 the 25 of March. 21 have been there that morning, but he would -- he would routinely be 22 in that meeting where we discussed -- where I raised Ambassador 23 Yovanovitch's desire for a strong statement. That's a meeting Mike normally attends. He may not 24 Q You were attending that meeting via SVTC? 25 A Oh, no, we'd go into the Secretary's office and sit down. UNCLASSIFIED 61 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 Q Okay. So you were not traveling at that point? You had returned home? A I had come back. On March 24, I was traveling with the 4 Secretary of State in Lebanon. We landed about 3 o'clock in the 5 morning, and that day I got the email from Ambassador Yovanovitch, so 6 the next day, on a Monday, we had that 7:15 meeting. 7 Q Okay. 8 A That was -- we were already back, so that was in the United 9 10 11 And that was in the United States? States. Q Okay. But you don't remember whether Ambassador McKinley was in that meeting? 12 A No. 13 Q And you don't remember Ambassador McKinley ever raising the 14 issue with you directly about whether Ambassador Yovanovitch needed 15 additional support? 16 A 17 MR. JORDAN: 18 No. Ambassador, was Ambassador Yovanovitch willing to do a statement -- 19 AMBASSADOR HALE: 20 MR. JORDAN: 21 AMBASSADOR HALE: Yes. -- back in the March timeframe? Yes, she had misgivings about whether to do it 22 on camera or a written statement. 23 prepared to do a statement. BY MR. CASTOR: 24 25 But in general, she was very much Q Ultimately, the decision not to do a statement in the UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 62 1 March-April timeframe was made because the assessment -- correct me 2 if I'm wrong -- the State Department officials thought it might make 3 things worse. Right? 4 A Correct. 5 Q So a public statement of support would be good for the 6 Ambassador on one hand, but on the other hand, it could end up being 7 very bad. Right? 8 A That was the -- precisely, I think the reasoning. 9 Q And the President can bring home an Ambassador at any time 10 for any reason or no reason. Right? 11 A That is correct. 12 Q This particular President has a -- sometimes he asks people 13 to leave their duties. Right? 14 A We've seen that, yes. 15 Q Okay. 16 So he has had a number of different senior people at various posts through government. Correct? 17 A Correct. 18 Q So the concept of a President, this President, deciding to 19 bring someone home or relieving somebody of their duties is certainly 20 not unusual. 21 A 22 23 Correct? Correct. You know, I have been an Ambassador three times. We all know that we serve at the pleasure of the President. Q Was there ever any discussion with the counselor, or the 24 Secretary to maybe try to go to the White House and make a pitch to 25 alter the course of the President's views of Ambassador Yovanovitch, UNCLASSIFIED 63 UNCLASSIFIED 1 but before the decision was made to bring her home? A 2 I don't have specific data on that. The impression was that 3 the Secretary of State was doing what he could to, again, maintain the 4 point that while there are allegations without evidence, they could 5 not be credited. Q 6 In the April 25th meeting when you were discussing the best 7 way to have the Ambassador leave gracefully, what were some of the 8 options on the table to help her transition gracefully? A 9 Well, to do it quickly, so that this matter was just dealt 10 with and there was no further reason for public criticism of the 11 Ambassador, to explain that this was a normal rotation. 12 but to explain that it was, that she was due out that summer anyway, 13 and thank her for her service, and move on. Q 14 15 It was not, Was she afforded the opportunity to stay longer if she thought it was in the best interest of the situation, or -- 16 A At that point in time? 17 Q Yeah. 18 A In other words, what are we talking about, in April. 19 Q April 25th. 20 A At that point, again, I was on travel during that week when 21 she was back. 22 you. 23 24 25 Q Okay. I don't know what she was saying to being honest with Around this time period, too, it is right around President Zelensky's election and inauguration? A Yeah. UNCLASSIFIED 64 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 Q Does it sometimes happen that the Ambassadors switch out when a new President comes in? A Yes. Your question prompts my memory. That was a factor 4 in the discussion about this that the fact that there was a transition 5 of leaders in Ukraine afforded an opportunity to have a fresh team 6 there. 7 8 9 Again, the reason we were -- she was being recalled was the lack of confidence that the President had expressed in her. Q Right. You mentioned at one point that before the -- before 10 she was relieved of her duties in Kyiv, it became apparent that the 11 President had a serious problem with her. 12 A Is that correct? Yes, I -- this was seemingly a problem over this whole period 13 of time, and we learned categorically that week that the President had 14 lost confidence in her. 15 Q Did any of the top State Department officials ever explain 16 to her that these things happen, and that if the President has these 17 serious concerns, it might be impossible to alter the outcome? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I think that conversation was the one conducted by the Deputy Secretary when she came back. Q Did you get any feedback from the Deputy Secretary or these key people involved with Ambassador Yovanovitch's views? A I don't have any records of that, and I just know that she went back and she did as had been directed. Q Okay. Did the Deputy Secretary ever have any communication with him about how she took the news? UNCLASSIFIED 65 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A I don't -- again, I was on travel, so I don't think anyone 2 specifically got back to me about that. I just have no recollection 3 of it. 4 Q Okay, not the Director General Perez (ph)? 5 A She may have. I think, again, my focus is on making sure 6 that what we were directing was happening and I have no doubt that I 7 learned that the Ambassador was going back to wrap up her affairs. 8 cleared on the May 9 statement that we issued, as was mentioned in the 9 previous session. 10 Q How about with Phil Reeker? I Did you have any communications 11 with him after she had been relieved of her duties about, you know, 12 helping her through this at this time? 13 A I don't have any records of that. 14 Q Okay. 15 A Nothing specific that jumps out of the ordinary. 16 Q Do you know if she was particularly upset by this? 17 A Yeah, she was -- I'm sure she was, but, again, I didn't talk 18 to her. We may have. But you don't remember any? We had no further communication, actually. 19 Q Okay. And that wasn't unusual given your post? 20 A That's right. 21 Q There's been some discussion of the role of Ambassador 22 Sondland and Ambassador Volker and how their involvement -- even 23 Secretary Perry -- how their involvement came to be and how it 24 interacted with the duties of Ambassador Taylor who was subsequently 25 installed as the Charge. When did you first become aware of the Volker, UNCLASSIFIED 66 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Sondland, Perry involvement? A 2 When the Presidential delegation to the inauguration was 3 announced on May 18, I believe the date was, the composition of the 4 delegation included Ambassador Sondland and Ambassador Volker. 5 Q And what was Ambassador Volker's role at that time? 6 A Ambassador Volker was a special envoy. I don't know the 7 exact title, but basically his responsibilities were to pursue the 8 Minsk process which is a diplomatic effort to engage the Russians and 9 some of the Europeans in order to effect the Russian departure from 10 Ukraine. Q 11 12 And how did his duties overlap with the Ambassador in Ukraine? A 13 That's a good question. I don't really know. I only met 14 Kurt once in the fall. 15 trip. 16 really heard that there was any problem or issue, so I'm sure they just 17 worked it out amicably. 18 19 I asked to see him in order to prepare for my At that time I was thinking I was going in December. Q I never Have you known Ambassador Volker before that time period or was that the first time you met him? 20 A First I met him. 21 Q Okay. 22 A When he was a career officer, he was very talented one and 23 Knew him by reputation. And what was that reputation? then he retired. 24 Q So you had no question to question his integrity? 25 A No. He had a very strong reputation and the fact that he UNCLASSIFIED 67 UNCLASSIFIED 1 was on this delegation gave me some confidence about, you know, how 2 they would operate. 3 4 5 Q And Sondland's involvement, the first time you became aware of that was preparing for the inaugural? A That's right. I mean, it came out in this announcement. 6 The State Department had, and I had cleared on a document -- we always 7 do, on these matters -- which was to propose an inauguration team, a 8 delegation. 9 We had wanted the Vice President to lead it. That was our idea. 10 For whatever reason, the Vice President couldn't do it, and this thing 11 came back, and Ambassador Sondland had been added to the delegation. 12 13 14 Q Okay. And did you ever develop any concerns about Ambassador Sondland's role in these events? A Well, again, it was a surprise that he was included because 15 his responsibilities don't cover the Ukraine. But it is often the case 16 where these delegations include a wide array of individuals that the 17 President knows or that he has admiration for, or believes are a good 18 fit for the Ukraine. 19 was on that, but that's how I assessed why Gordon was included on it. 20 And, again, when I saw that we had a professional who was steeped Again, I don't know what the President's thinking 21 in Ukrainian issues like Kurt Volker on the delegation, I had no 22 concerns. 23 Q Did you subsequently become involved with some of the 24 specific things Ambassador Sondland and Ambassador Volker were 25 involved in, such as trying to get a White House meeting? UNCLASSIFIED 68 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A I received a written readout of the June 23 meeting -- I'm 2 sorry, May 23 meeting that the President had. I believe the meeting 3 was on May 23. 4 meeting the President had with the delegation members, and that note 5 to me outlined the policy guidance that the President had given to the 6 group. 7 Q What was that guidance? 8 A The note was classified, but I will summarize -- 9 Q Please. 10 A -- it as best I can. 11 Q As best you can without revealing classified information. 12 A Yeah. At any rate, on May 23, I received a readout of the That the President would send a letter of 13 congratulations to President Zelensky and would be inviting him to the 14 Oval Office, and that the delegation should push for reform and flag 15 the President's deep concerns about corruption in that country and its 16 poor investment climate, and the oligarchical control over the economy, 17 and that they should ensure that Zelensky was coming to the Oval Office, 18 prepared to commit to improving U.S.-Ukraine relations and addressing 19 these matters. 20 Q Okay. And the corruption environment, the poor investment 21 climate, and the other items you mentioned, was that consistent with 22 your view of Ukraine at the time? 23 A It was consistent with my view and with our policy, stated 24 policy, yes. 25 Q And Ukraine has been beset by corruption over the years, is UNCLASSIFIED 69 UNCLASSIFIED 1 that correct? 2 A Correct. 3 Q And a lot of the involvement of the oligarchs presents 4 problems with regard to corruption. Is that correct? 5 A Correct. 6 Q And some of these oligarchs, they have government positions 7 and then they go into the private sector, or at least, supposed to be 8 the private sector, and they use their connections, their former 9 connections in government to sometimes take money, take, you know, 10 licenses to, you know, do things. Is that correct? 11 A Correct. 12 Q There is one particular oligarch, Mykola Zlochevsky. 13 you familiar with him? 14 A I've seen the name, yeah. 15 Q And he was the Minister of Ecology. 16 Are And do you know anything about him or just what you've read? A I don't know firsthand anything about him, and I've read 18 things. There's so many of these, I don't know the details, to be 19 honest. 17 20 Q Okay. But his involvement with a company called Burisma, 21 it didn't surprise or shock you that the company was, you know, involved 22 possibly with corruption, had been subject to a number of 23 investigations over the years? 24 25 A I wasn't focused on this. I was Ambassador to Pakistan at that time, and I had a full plate there, so I really wasn't following UNCLASSIFIED 70 UNCLASSIFIED 1 what was happening in Ukraine until I was preparing for my trip to 2 Ukraine. 3 4 Q And this matter was not the subject of the discussions. Okay. But, generally, an oligarch in the country certainly could be subject to charges of corruption. Right? 5 A Correct. 6 Q After the readout that you received from the May 23 meeting 7 in the Oval Office, did you come to learn that there was an interest 8 in involving Mr. Giuliani? 9 A No. 10 Q When did you subsequently become aware of his changed role? 11 A When these various revelations came out after the 12 whistleblower's activity. 13 Q Okay. So not until late September? 14 A Thereabouts, yes. 15 Q And your only awareness of Mr. Giuliani's role on a 16 diplomatic front, whether it was irregular or not, only came to your 17 attention via the public news stories? 18 A Correct. 19 Q Did you ever have any discussions with some of the State 20 Department players at this point? 21 A No. 22 Q Okay. 23 A Because it was clear that these were matters that were going And why was that? 24 to be under, or already were under investigation, and therefore I didn't 25 want to appear in any way to be influencing potential witnesses to this UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 71 committee or other. Q Okay. So back in the March-April timeframe, you are aware 3 that Mr. Giuliani was pushing a negative narrative about the Ambassador 4 and the climate in Ukraine. 5 A Right? I didn't know that, but I had seen, as I said, allegations 6 of that, and certainly speculation on the part of our Ambassador as 7 to what his motivations might be if he was involved. 8 9 Q And then you never learned that Mr. Giuliani's name was mentioned in the May 23rd meeting in the Oval Office? 10 A That was not in the readout that was provided to me. 11 Q Okay. 12 And never related to you until the public news accounts emerged? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Just in your experience as a State Department official, how 15 common or uncommon is it that a President might lean on a private person 16 for public diplomacy? 17 A Well, it's not unprecedented. 18 Q Can you give any examples or -- 19 A Well, throughout history, I mean -- I'm trying to think of 20 a recent example. 21 this particular one. 22 Presidents have relied upon people who he trusts or -- he trusts 23 to -- for certain initiatives. 24 It's not leaping in my mind right now. 25 Q It's hard to think of an example that quite matches But I do believe that it's safe to say that But it's true, I can't think of someone. To the extent the President had involved Mr. Giuliani, that's UNCLASSIFIED 72 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 not necessarily in and of itself concerning? A No. I will give you an example. I wasn't expecting the 3 question, so forgive my pauses. 4 government officials, who have been emissaries for the President to 5 North Korea, to Cuba. 6 Richardson, others, who performed tasks like that. 7 8 Q Okay. But we've had private citizens, former I remember President Carter, Representative And Mr. Giuliani as the former mayor of New York during 9/11 had a relatively high public profile? 9 A Correct. 10 Q And so if the President had trust in him given his role in 11 U.S. history, that's not entirely surprising that the President might 12 lean on somebody of that stature for these issues? 13 A Not unprecedented. 14 Q At any point in time when the discussion of a White House 15 meeting was being worked on by Ambassadors Volker and Sondland, did 16 George Kent or Ambassador Reeker ever bring you into the loop of some 17 of the challenges that were going on? 18 A Well, I was not informed about the back and forth going on. 19 What I did know was that there was an invitation extended, as I 20 mentioned, to President Zelensky. 21 At some point, and I don't know why, the concept of the meeting 22 shifted from being in the Oval Office to being in Warsaw. I interpreted 23 that just being logistically simpler because they were all -- both going 24 to be in Warsaw for another event. 25 Carolinas, the President indicated that he would not be traveling there Then when the hurricane hit the UNCLASSIFIED 73 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 and the Vice President would be going instead. I may have learned some of this from the European Affairs Bureau, 3 I may have learned some of it from the Secretary. 4 I was not following this. 5 I was not particularly focused or concerned about it. 6 Q I just don't know. I was not the operational lead on it, so Did Ambassador Reeker or DAS Kent seek your leadership on 7 any of these issues to sort out concerns that Ambassador Taylor may 8 have been having? 9 A No, I did not hear about that. Again, my frame of mind was 10 that we had Volker -- it was clear that the President, from the readout 11 I had received, the President had tasked that group, members of that 12 delegation to pursue these objectives: 13 goals that I outlined earlier. 14 the meeting, and the policy So I was, you know, knowing I was aware that Ambassador Volker 15 and Ambassador Sondland would be doing that. So to my mind, it sort 16 of checked, that's being handled. 17 nature of my job is such that a situation like that happens, unless 18 there are problems, people don't come back to me. 19 development that is somehow complicating this, people don't come back 20 to me, and no one came back to me. There's a pro on the team. And the Or if there's a new 21 Q Okay. 22 A Yeah. 23 Q Were you involved with installing Ambassador Taylor? 24 A I was aware that the decision had been made. 25 Ambassador Volker was the pro? Counselor Brechbuhl was involved in that selection in finding a person that we UNCLASSIFIED 74 UNCLASSIFIED 1 needed. We knew we needed a senior leadership there during the interim 2 period. And but I was not -- and I was consulted. 3 if I was okay with that, and I was. 4 before he went out to Kyiv. I'm sure I was asked And I met Ambassador Taylor once 5 Q Did you know him from prior service? 6 A Yeah, we had -- when I was handling Middle East piece, he 7 was, I think, the coordinator for assistance in the Near East Bureau. 8 So we would occasionally attend staff meetings together. 9 have a personal relationship with him in particular. 10 Q What was your experience with him? 11 A Yeah. 12 13 14 But I didn't Was it positive? He was a very well regarded person, well respected in the Department. Q The decision of installing him as the Charge, ultimately, whose call was that? 15 A The Secretary of State. 16 Q But below the Secretary of State, is that your call or is 17 18 that -A It's really, there's no system for doing this. 19 unusual situation. 20 go to the Secretary if everyone is on board with this. 21 called the D Committee that's chaired by the Deputy Secretary that makes 22 recommendations on Ambassadorial nominations. 23 charge, although it is not an Ambassador, those same people would 24 normally be consulted. 25 So it would be basically a consensus. It is an It would There is a body So, informally, for a And that's the Under Secretary for management, myself, the UNCLASSIFIED 75 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Director General of the Foreign Service, the Deputy Secretary, and 2 Consular Brechbuhl. 3 4 5 Q Did you ever become aware of Ambassador Taylor's trepidation about taking the post? A As I said, at the meeting we had, he did talk to me. 6 don't remember the contents of that meeting. 7 if he really wanted to take this on. 8 he said, yes, he did. 9 about it. 10 11 Q I really I remember asking him It is a challenging thing. I don't remember him expressing any reservations He seemed to be actually rather enthusiastic. Okay. And it was a challenge because of the external and environmental challenges? 12 A Well, also what our Ambassador had just been through. 13 Q That's what I mean. 14 A Yes. 15 Q -- promoting a negative narrative? 16 A That's right. 17 Q But he was okay with that at that time? 18 A Yeah, he was enthusiastic about going. There were outside forces -- Again, I don't 19 remember, frankly, any of the details of the conversation, 20 but -- except that I did ask that question, and I sensed total 21 enthusiasm and a very positive attitude about going there. 22 glad to have that. 23 And Q And we were That's what we needed. Do you know if he contemplated, you know, what he would do 24 if he became the subject of the negative narrative that Ambassador 25 Yovanovitch had had? UNCLASSIFIED 76 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A No, I don't remember that conversation. I don't think 2 anyone expected he would experience that again, but you never know, 3 I suppose. 4 Q Okay. And during this time period, did you or Counselor 5 Brechbuhl assure Ambassador Taylor that if the going got tough, the 6 State Department leadership would have his back? 7 A I did not, to my knowledge, have that conversation, but I 8 really don't -- the details of my discussion with him are not clear 9 to me. 10 Q Okay. 11 A I don't know. 12 Q -- at the Secretary level, or the counselor -- 13 A I don't know. And do you know if anyone else -- There was a meeting that he had with the 14 Secretary to get guidance. 15 know why. 16 17 18 Q I did not attend that meeting. I don't It may have been a schedule conflict. And once Ambassador Taylor was on the ground in Kyiv, did you hear of any concerns that he had had? A No, I heard from him only very rarely. I met with him on June 7. So he met with the 19 Secretary on May 23rd. He sent me an email 20 on July 2nd, basically reminding me that the Secretary of State 21 had -- there was a telegram that reminded people that there was a pending 22 invitation of Zelensky to Washington, D.C. -- and I'm just finding the 23 next time I heard from him. 24 On August 27, Ambassador Taylor emailed me with a -- in doing so, 25 he was forwarding a telegram, a State Department communication from UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 77 1 an embassy, a classified cable, so I will be a little bit cryptic. But 2 in that cable, he said there was something in the cable about a foreign 3 official asking the question about the status of our policy toward 4 Ukraine, without providing any further context. 5 And Ambassador Taylor said that he wanted to remind me that he 6 had said that the Secretary -- not to me, but to the Secretary -- in 7 that earlier meeting, that if our policy changed, there would be no 8 use in having him stay in Kyiv. 9 And he cited three things in the note to me as to why he was raising 10 these concerns. One was what he had heard in the media about the 11 President pondering a possible expansion of the G7 to -- G8 status to 12 include Russia; the freeze on security assistance, which, by this time, 13 was well-known in our government; and the fact that the Zelensky meeting 14 did not occur because of the -- we thought because of the hurricane. 15 Q Was that the first time you heard concerns? 16 A That's the first time I heard of any concerns, yes. 17 Q So Deputy Assistant Secretary Kent never brought to your 18 attention any of Ambassador Taylor's concerns? 19 A No. 20 Q Ambassador Reeker the same? 21 A To my knowledge. 22 Q Are you aware of any other action Ambassador Taylor took to 23 try to get the attention of State Department leadership about his 24 concerns? 25 A I'd like to step back on this series of questions. UNCLASSIFIED I was 78 UNCLASSIFIED 1 well-aware of the problems related to the freeze on security 2 assistance. 3 if that's what you're referring to, I did have backs and forths with 4 various Department people on this. 5 Q So during this period of time, my focus was on that. Okay. I will get there in a second. But, you know, 6 Ambassador Taylor has documented his concerns now. 7 committee. 8 concerns during the pendency of this time period? 9 A There was this public statement. I was aware because of his email he sent me that he was concerned. 11 be a shift underway in our policy toward Ukraine. Q He came before the Were you aware of his 10 12 So He cited these three things as evidence that there might Do you know if he pursued any other avenue to get the 13 attention of State Department leadership that he was concerned either 14 before or after this cable? 15 A He sent on August 29 a cable as well, also classified, which 16 I have reread now to prepare for this deposition, in which he laid out 17 in a very professional fashion all of the negative consequences of the 18 freeze of our assistance if the assistance did not go forward. 19 Q Okay. Between the Oval Office meeting on May 23, and 20 August 27, are you aware of any actions the Ambassador took to raise 21 concerns? 22 A No. 23 Q So the 8/27 communication was an email or cable that was 24 25 forwarded to you -A That's right. UNCLASSIFIED 79 UNCLASSIFIED Q 1 2 -- was the first time it became front and center that Ambassador Taylor had a big time issue? 3 A That's right. 4 Q What did you do with that concern? Did you try to engage 5 Assistant Secretary Reeker, the Acting Assistant Secretary, or DAS 6 Kent? 7 8 9 10 A Well, we had already engaged at the White House an interagency meeting related to the security assistance. Q Okay. So at that point in time, you thought Ambassador Taylor's concern was related to the -- just to the security assistance? 11 A That was the most tangible piece. 12 Q Okay. 13 A And the one that I had direct responsibility to deal with. 14 Q Okay. 15 A We were already dealing with it. The other matters, the 16 White House, you know, meeting with the President, first of all, was 17 not in my power, but my understanding was circumstances were what was 18 making it -- delaying it. 19 that was contradictory to what I was briefed on on May 23 out of the 20 May 23 meeting. But there had not been a policy decision 21 Q Okay. 22 A And the G7-G8 thing, it struck me the President had said that. 23 No one at the State Department was working on a plan to expand G7, so 24 it was not an operationalized -- at that point anyway, an 25 operationalized thought. So that was my reaction to Ambassador UNCLASSIFIED 80 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 Taylor's concerns. Q Okay. Now, stepping back to the securities assistance hold that first emerged on July 18, when did that first come on your radar? A Again, having researched it to prepare for today, I first 5 started to hear that there was a problem with it on June 21; that OMB 6 had stopped the aid. 7 I learned from a member of my staff, I believe, and the aid package 8 to Lebanon was also being held in the same fashion. 9 people started asking: 10 So, you know, What's the problem? On July 23, in relation to Lebanon, our Assistant Secretary for 11 Near Eastern Affairs emailed me that he had a conversation with an 12 official in OSD, the Office of the Secretary Defense, about the Lebanon 13 assistance, in which that officer also raised the freeze on the Ukraine 14 assistance, and the two of them speculated, was this a new normal on 15 assistance. 16 The context, bearing in mind, is that the administration has been 17 embarked on a foreign assistance review in which we are trying to 18 reestablish the norms that guide the assistance that we provide 19 overseas. 20 And I was briefed that on July 23 there was a lower-level 21 interagency meeting in which OMB said that the Ukraine assistance was 22 suspended. 23 the Deputies Small Group on Ukraine. 24 the foreign affairs agencies that have concerns, chaired by Deputy 25 National Security Adviser Kupperman. And on July 26, I was called to a meeting of what we called That's the deputies of all of UNCLASSIFIED 81 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 Q Were there any events between 7-26 and the cable from Ambassador Taylor on this topic? A No, I mean, what happened in the -- in the Small Group meeting 4 was that Mr. Kupperman asked each agency, starting with me, as the 5 State's senior cabinet agency what our view was on this matter, and 6 I advocated strongly for resuming the assistance, as did every other 7 agency represented there with the exception of one, which was the OMB. 8 9 10 Q And did you have confidence that the aid would be ultimately released? A Well, OMB said that the -- when asked why by someone, perhaps 11 Kupperman, they said that they had guidance from the President and from 12 Acting Chief of Staff Mulvaney to freeze the assistance. 13 So I went back to the office and sent a note to the Secretary 14 through his staff reporting this and saying that it seemed to me that 15 this was going to have to be resolved at the principals level and that 16 it was unlikely that OMB would be shifting their position at the 17 principals level given what we just heard. 18 have to be resolved, if he wished to have it resolved, directly with 19 the President. So I left it at that, and time passed. 20 Q Okay. 21 A No, I never did. 22 23 24 25 And, therefore, it would Did you get any feedback from that communication? I mean, nothing that I remember, let me put it that way. Q Okay. You mentioned that there was a foreign assistance review undergoing -A Yes. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 82 1 Q -- at that time. What can you tell us about that? 2 A Well, it had been going on for quite a while, and the concept, 3 you know, the administration did not want to take a, sort of, 4 business-as-usual approach to foreign assistance, a feeling that once 5 a country has received a certain assistance package, it's a -- it's 6 something that continues forever. 7 programs and to make sure that we have a very rigorous measure of why 8 we are providing the assistance. It's very difficult to end those 9 We didn't go to zero base, but almost a zero-based concept that 10 each assistance program and each country that receives the program had 11 to be evaluated that they were actually worthy beneficiaries of our 12 assistance; that the program made sense; that we have embarked on, you 13 know, calling everything that we do around the world countering violent 14 extremism, but, rather, that's actually focused on tangible and proven 15 means to deal with extremist problems; that we avoid nation-building 16 strategies; and that we not provide assistance to countries that are 17 lost to us in terms of policy, to our adversaries. 18 Q And do you know if the President also had concerns about 19 whether the allies of Ukraine, in this example, were contributing their 20 fair share? 21 A That's another factor in the foreign affairs review is 22 appropriate burden sharing. 23 meeting, OMB did not really explain why they were taking the position 24 other than they had been directed to do so. 25 Q Okay. But it was not, in the deputies committee You are aware of the President's skeptical views on UNCLASSIFIED 83 UNCLASSIFIED 1 foreign assistance? Right? 2 A Absolutely. 3 Q And that's a genuinely held belief, correct? 4 A It is what guided the foreign affairs review. 5 Q Okay. 6 A Absolutely not. 7 Q Did you ever come to learn in, you know, during the course It's not just related to Ukraine? It's global in nature. 8 of these meetings on 7-23 and 7-26 and some of the earlier meetings, 9 that there was a concern about the corruption environment in Ukraine 10 and that might be related to the hold? 11 A 12 corruption. 13 Q 14 We knew that the President was a skeptic about the issue of Did you know what was the source of his deep-rooted views about the corruption environment in the Ukraine? 15 A I couldn't comment on that. 16 Q Did anyone brief you? 17 A Again, on the note that I mentioned that was the readout of 18 the May 23 letter, the comment was attached to it. 19 observation that the President did express skepticism, that he was 20 skeptical about our ability to succeed in all of these, but that he 21 endorsed the approach. Q 22 Okay. This is an Are there any other key events during that time period 23 related to the foreign assistance holds that you haven't touched on 24 yet? 25 A No, I mean, there have been various backs and forths about UNCLASSIFIED 84 UNCLASSIFIED 1 it leading up to the meeting of July 26, and I have not received or 2 have available to me anything on it until the August 27 email from 3 Taylor, and the August 29 cable. 4 released sometime in early September, I believe. 5 6 Q Right. And then, of course, the aid was During the period of July 26, and you said shortly thereafter you brought this to the attention of the Secretary? 7 A Yeah. Immediately following the meeting I sent him a note. 8 Q Okay. Between that time period and September 11 when the 9 aid was ultimately released, did you have any feedback from your staff, 10 whether it be Ambassador Reeker, Deputy Assistant Secretary Kent, about 11 some of the drama going on here? 12 A 13 about? 14 Q You mean the exchanges amongst Sondland, that we have heard Yeah. Well, there was a real concern on behalf of Ambassador 15 Taylor, DAS Kent that while the aid was held, it was contributing to, 16 you know, a negative impact on U.S.-Ukrainian relations? 17 18 19 20 21 A No, that was not the case. I was not so informed other than the cable, or the email from Taylor was the first time. Q But on the flip side, the public reveal that the aid was held didn't come until late August. A Are you aware of that? I wasn't tracking that in particular. I didn't understand 22 that the information had been communicated to the Ukrainians. 23 was not the focus of the deputies committee meeting. 24 state of things, it would not be communicated until -- a freeze would 25 not be communicated to a foreign government, only a decision. UNCLASSIFIED That In the normal It then 85 UNCLASSIFIED 1 has to be notified to Congress. It could be at that point. 2 leak out, of course. 3 That is not to keep the army going now. Things And bear in mind, this is future assistance. It is to help them in the future. 4 Q So did you become aware of when it was made public? 5 A I wasn't tracking that, to be honest. 6 Q There was an article, I think, on August 28 that revealed 7 this was held. A 8 9 10 it. I don't remember it going public. So it probably didn't surprise me. I certainly knew about I didn't register it, but I don't remember that. Q 11 12 Is that consistent with your understanding? Were you aware around the same time Ambassador Bolton had traveled to Ukraine? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Did you get any readouts of his meeting on the ground? 15 A I may have. Q Okay. 16 17 I don't really remember anything unusual about it. Right around the time of Ambassador Bolton's visit, 18 the Rada convened and President Zelensky was trying to push through 19 some of his opening legislative vehicles. 20 Did that ever come to your attention? 21 A Well, in general, I'm sure I was tracking Zelensky's, you 22 know, activities. 23 things that we wanted to see done. 24 25 The general impression was that he was doing the Bear in mind, I had met him back during my visit in March. impressed by him. I felt, obviously, it was an hour-long meeting. UNCLASSIFIED I was You 86 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 can only draw so many conclusions. We, obviously, had to test them. But I felt that this was 3 somebody we were going to be able to work with. 4 all of the right things. 5 6 7 8 And he certainly said No surprise there. We want to look at his actions. Right? And the actions he was taking subsequent to his inauguration seemed to be the right ones. Q And so at the time, you thought President Zelensky was a genuinely -- a genuine reformer? 9 A I think it would be premature to say that. 10 Q That would be the hope? 11 A Yeah, that we had an opportunity here that we needed to take 12 advantage of. 13 Q That he was in it for the right reasons? 14 A Yes. That he was saying the right things, and that our 15 approach could make sure that he really pushed for the reforms we 16 wanted. 17 18 19 Q That was the case we were trying to test. And to your knowledge, you had no evidence that he was somebody in it for himself? A Well, there's always questions about Ukrainian, you know, 20 public officials. I mean, and those exist. 21 say categorically anything on that score. 22 what steps would he take to pursue the anticorruption and reform agenda 23 that was so important to both of our countries. 24 UNCLASSIFIED I don't think anyone could We were looking at actions; 87 UNCLASSIFIED 1 [11:11 a.m.] BY MR. CASTOR: 2 3 Q And were you aware that when he did finally get control of 4 the process and the Rada was seated, that he did, in fact, push through 5 a number of reform initiatives? 6 A I hesitate to talk in detail. 7 to today. 8 moving in the right direction. 9 10 11 12 13 Q I'm not sure. I didn't bone up on that prior But the general impression was that he was And the feedback from Ambassador Bolton's visit, do you remember if that was positive? A I don't really have any recollection that there was anything notable out of that. Q And then, subsequent to that visit, it was over the Labor 14 Day time period, I believe that's when the Secretary was able to engage 15 the President on the security assistance question? 16 A Perhaps, yeah. 17 Q And did you ever get any feedback of how that went from the 18 Secretary? 19 A If I did, I don't really remember it, to be honest with you. 20 Q And then the aid September 11 was -- the hold was lifted? 21 A That's right. 22 Q And how did you learn about that fact? 23 A I think from the public, or maybe someone told me. 24 just look at my chronology here. 25 someone telling me that. Let me I don't have any document that shows I think we just learned it when it happened. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 88 1 Q Did you receive any feedback about how that occurred? 2 A No. 3 Q So the Secretary never followed back up with you and related 4 to you how this occurred? 5 A I don't remember him doing that. 6 Q Okay. 7 Did it surprise you that, ultimately, the aid was released? 8 A I was relieved that it was released. 9 Q During that time period where it was on hold, do you know 10 if the State Department had taken any action to deal with the 11 possibility that the aid would not be released, whether it be through 12 reprogramming or other avenue? 13 A In what timeframe? 14 Q During the time period that it was on hold; but mostly the 15 16 7/26 to 9/11 time period. A I received some emails on the assistance freeze on the 25th 17 of July. I believe it was just confirming that the freeze existed. 18 I don't remember discussion about going so far as reprogramming. 19 Obviously, that was the implication. 20 All of this was really leading up to what ended up being a deputies 21 meeting on July 26, where we did discuss -- I mean, I pointed out in 22 that meeting that there was a soft earmark on the money and so, whatever 23 happened, we would have to be spending that money in Ukraine, and OMB 24 acknowledged that. 25 And then I advised -- not that I'm an expert on it, but I advised UNCLASSIFIED 89 UNCLASSIFIED 1 that it was most likely, given the bipartisan support in Congress for 2 this assistance, that if we actually suspended the aid for the military, 3 we would face a hard earmark in the following year; and that was 4 acknowledged as a possibility as well. 5 6 Q The posture of providing javelins to the Ukrainians, what do you know about that decision? 7 A Nothing actually. 8 Q Do you know that at one point, the U.S. Government had a 9 10 position not to provide lethal defensive assistance to the Ukrainians? A I'm not expert in this. Our Political and Military Affairs 11 Bureau normally handles all these things. 12 didn't research the history. 13 freeze. 14 Q Okay. I don't get involved. Our focus at that meeting was on the When the cable came in from Ambassador Taylor, was 15 there any renewed focus at your level to zero in on the irregular 16 channel, as he described it, of diplomacy? 17 A No. I I was unaware of anything other than what I've already 18 described this morning. And he did not reference that in the August 27 19 email or the August 29 cable. 20 As I said, it focused on the inability to get a Zelensky visit 21 with the President, the freeze on the security assistance, and this 22 idea of expanding the G7. 23 Q Right. Ambassador Taylor's statement walks through what he 24 characterizes as this irregular channel. 25 characterized that channel? UNCLASSIFIED What is your view on how he 90 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A What I knew was that goes back to the meeting that the 2 President had on May 23rd, I think, in which it was clear that the 3 members of that inaugural delegation were empowered to pursue the 4 policy themes that I mentioned earlier. 5 I concluded from looking at the names that, de facto Secretary Perry 6 was unlikely to be able to spend his full-time on this matter. 7 Member of Congress, Senator Johnson, was unlikely to pursue this in 8 a constant way. And, as a practical matter, The 9 And so, as a practical matter, it would be Ambassador Volker and 10 Ambassador Sondland, presumably working with Ambassador Taylor, who 11 would be the ones really doing the continual effort here. 12 a supposition on my part; that's based on the information I had. 13 Q That was When he testified, and with his statement, you know, he 14 really went through what he viewed as this irregular channel. 15 look at this issue, did you have any issue with the irregular channel? 16 A I didn't have an issue with what I heard, based on the readout 17 from the President's meeting and guidance on May 23rd. 18 problem with that. 19 Second, we had pros doing it. 20 line with our policy objectives. 21 22 Q As you I had no It was the President's decision, first of all. And the policy goals were totally in When he testified here, did you get a chance to read his statement? 23 A I read it at the time yeah. 24 Q And did his statement bring anything to your attention that 25 you wish you had learned of earlier? UNCLASSIFIED 91 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A Yes. I didn't know of these interactions. 2 of Mayor Giuliani's involvement. 3 that had been discussed. 4 Q Okay. I didn't know about these conditions And were you disappointed that that wasn't brought 5 to your attention? 6 Ambassador Taylor's level or DAS Kent's level? 7 8 9 10 A I didn't know Or were you glad that this was being handled at I was surprised to learn that this was happening, and I was surprised that I was not involved or informed. Q Okay. And why don't you think Ambassador Taylor brought any of this to your attention prior to August 27th? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q Have you had any communications with Ambassador Reeker about 13 14 what was going on, now that you know about it? A Well, again, once the stuff started to come out, I think -- I 15 mean, I'm speaking for myself. 16 matters would be a problem, perception problem, because we might be 17 accused later of trying to influence witnesses, so I steered away from 18 discussions of these particular matters, and maybe others were doing 19 that as well. 20 21 22 MR. CASTOR: I felt that the discussions of these There's about 10 minutes left. I want to make sure if any of other members have questions that they get an opportunity. MR. MEADOWS: Ambassador Hale, Mark Meadows, from North 23 Carolina. I want to thank you for your service. 24 everybody will read this transcript later and so, for the record, I 25 want to just say thank you for just calling balls and strikes and trying UNCLASSIFIED And you know, 92 UNCLASSIFIED 1 to do your best to just help the American people understand the truth 2 on all of this. 3 the interaction that we actually have here in this particular 4 deposition room. And that's maybe not picked up in the nonverbals or 5 I want to circle back, because it has long been my understanding 6 that aid to foreign countries has been a concern of this President; 7 specifically, of this administration, and so, at what point were you 8 asked to embark on a review of foreign aid broadly, in terms of that 9 reset that you were talking about earlier? 10 AMBASSADOR HALE: The President announced it at his speech at the 11 opening of the U.N. General Assembly in September of 2018. 12 attended a meeting earlier that year -- I really couldn't pin down what 13 it was. 14 meeting, where I represented the State Department and, basically, we 15 were being briefed on the new direction, and we were being asked to 16 offer reactions to it. 17 I had I didn't research this topic for today -- a large interagency Based on my experience in countries with large assistance 18 programs, Pakistan, Jordan, and Lebanon, I warmly welcomed the foreign 19 assistance review. 20 take that kind of approach, and pledged strong State Department 21 support. 22 I thought it was long overdue that we needed to I ask that we always bear in mind, though, the need for 23 case-by-case study of this, and not just impose it; look at the 24 circumstances of each country; study carefully what the pros and cons 25 are of what we are trying to accomplish. UNCLASSIFIED 93 UNCLASSIFIED 1 After I did that, it was then decided -- and after the announcement 2 by the President, it was decided that our policy planning office and 3 our foreign assistance office would take the lead on this matter. 4 So my role was minimized -- not minimized but I was no longer 5 representing the State Department and things were being cleared by my 6 office. MR. MEADOWS: 7 But as a career, a distinguished career foreign 8 service official, you embraced this, and felt like that it was a prudent 9 thing for the United States Government, on behalf of the American 10 taxpayer, to embark on, to make sure that every dollar that goes out 11 has a strategic or, at worst case, tactical advantage for the United 12 States. Is that correct? 13 AMBASSADOR HALE: 14 MR. MEADOWS: Absolutely correct, sir, and long overdue. And long overdue. And so would it surprise you at 15 all to learn that Ambassador Volker, in 2017, expressed real concerns 16 about the corruption within the Ukraine? 17 all. 18 AMBASSADOR HALE: 19 MR. MEADOWS: 20 21 22 23 Would that surprise you at No. Would it surprise you at all that the President of the United States, in 2017, shared that view, that Ukraine was corrupt? AMBASSADOR HALE: It wouldn't surprise me. I was in Pakistan then so I wasn't tracking it, but yes. MR. MEADOWS: So as you start to look at your new role, and looking 24 at this from a 30,000 foot level in terms of trying to make sure that 25 the foreign assistance that we provide is properly and efficiently UNCLASSIFIED 94 UNCLASSIFIED 1 deployed, part of that review, obviously, will -- well, when will the 2 review be completed? 3 MR. HALE: 4 5 I don't know. I asked that question just the other day, and I was told that it's still pending. MR. MEADOWS: I don't know why. And so if it's still pending, at this particular 6 point, reviewing that, because we have had other testimony in here that 7 would indicate, oh, well, we always review before foreign assistance 8 goes out about corruption and about some of the other concerns. 9 characterize that more as a check-the-box kind of review. I 10 Would you indicate that the -- or would your testimony be that 11 this foreign assistance review that you embarked on in 2018 would be 12 more comprehensive than perhaps the normal review that's associated 13 with foreign aid, currently? 14 AMBASSADOR HALE: Well, what we are expecting, what is pending 15 is the broad policy guidance and guidelines that have been developed 16 by the various players. 17 guidance -- is that we will then apply that on a case-by-case basis 18 to different countries. And my hope is -- and I'm waiting for that 19 In the meantime, we are trying to -- we understand the intent of 20 the President, and so we are doing our utmost to try to meet the intent 21 of the President; even in the absence of a finalized review. 22 MR. MEADOWS: 23 MR. JORDAN: Thank you, Ambassador. Ambassador, you mentioned earlier, that at the time, 24 on June 21, you learned that the hold was placed on Ukraine. 25 was also a hold placed on Lebanon; is that right? UNCLASSIFIED There UNCLASSIFIED 1 AMBASSADOR HALE: 2 MR. JORDAN: 3 Correct. Any other countries over the last several months, or in the calendar year where there has been a hold on assistance? AMBASSADOR HALE: 4 5 95 The northern triangle countries of South America. 6 MR. JORDAN: Honduras? 7 AMBASSADOR HALE: Yeah. Pakistan, this goes back to my tenure. 8 The President suspended the vast majority of our military assistance 9 to Pakistan because of their failure to conform to our concerns about 10 terrorism activity and the proxies that were operating in the border 11 area of Afghanistan. I'm just trying to go across the globe and try to remember what 12 13 else. 14 MR. JORDAN: Several. 15 AMBASSADOR HALE: 16 MR. JORDAN: Several. Several. Thank you. BY MR. CASTOR: 17 18 Q 19 round. 20 mentioned, such as those relating to specific companies like Burisma, 21 the Bidens, 2016 election? 22 A Just one last question before 0our time expires here in this When did you first hear of specific investigations being Investigations. I suppose the email from Ambassador 23 Yovanovitch that I mentioned was speculative, where she was speculating 24 on the motives of various actors who might or might not be behind the 25 smear campaign; Lutsenko and Giuliani were the ones she spoke of UNCLASSIFIED 96 UNCLASSIFIED 1 specifically. And she mentioned that the timing of the Mueller report 2 might be a factor. 3 She mentioned that Mayor Giuliani might have been motivated to 4 sully Vice President Biden's reputation by reminding the world of the 5 issue regarding his son's activities in Ukraine. 6 things that were mentioned at that stage. 7 Q Those were the two But during the pendency of the security assistance hold, from 8 July 18 through the date you got the cable from Ambassador Taylor, did 9 you hear the names Biden, Burisma? 10 A No. No, not in government channels. If it appeared in the 11 media, it was in the New York Times -- I won't say I don't read the 12 New York Times or whatever. 13 apparent to me. 14 15 Q But, yeah, it was not something that was So at no point during that time did the official chain of command, from the field, articulate these concerns to you? 16 A No. 17 Q And, in fact, you didn't even hear the name Biden, Burisma? 18 A No. 19 No. No. When the whistleblower reports and all that came out of that, that's when I first saw this. 20 MR. CASTOR: 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Okay. My time has expired. Thank you. I would suggest we take an early lunch 22 break. 23 the witnesses that have not shown up, as well as get a bite to eat. 24 25 That will give us a chance to handle the proceedings involving So why don't we recess until, say, 12:15. We will take up the matter of the witnesses who have not attended, and then at 12:30, UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 1 Ambassador, you could prepare to resume at 12:30. 2 AMBASSADOR HALE: 3 THE CHAIRMAN: 4 [Recess.] Okay. So we are in recess until 12:15. 5 UNCLASSIFIED 97 98 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 [12:30 p.m.] THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Let's go back on the record. Ambassador, 3 I wanted to just follow up on some of the questions that my colleagues 4 in the minority asked during their period of questioning. 5 I think you were asked whether it was the view of the State 6 Department that issuing a statement of support for Ambassador 7 Yovanovitch might make things worse. 8 that was the view of the State Department. 9 on that. 10 11 But I want to drill down It was your view, in fact, that a statement should go out supporting the Ambassador, wasn't it? 12 AMBASSADOR HALE: 13 THE CHAIRMAN: 14 And I think you indicated that Yes. I have been advocating for a statement. And others who brought the issue to your attention were also advocating for a statement in support of the Ambassador? 15 AMBASSADOR HALE: The general trend was, yeah, to -- I mean, we 16 were working on drafts. And, yes, the European Affairs Bureau, myself, 17 and the Ambassador, Ambassador Yovanovitch, were working on it, and 18 I had said early on that I supported that. 19 of things. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: And that was the spirit So, when my colleague asked you about the view of 21 the State Department being that as such a statement would make things 22 worse, what that really indicates is that it was the decision of the 23 Secretary of State not to do it, and the explanation was that it might 24 make matters worse. 25 Is that right? AMBASSADOR HALE: Yes. As I said earlier, I don't have a memory UNCLASSIFIED 99 UNCLASSIFIED 1 of being told at a specific time by a specific person that there would 2 be no statement other than the meeting I had with the Secretary on that 3 Monday when it was clear there wasn't going to be a statement that day, 4 that we were going to have a series of contacts, and then they would 5 be assessing it. 6 passed, that I learned, in some fashion I can't specifically remember, 7 that there was an assessment that it might make matters worse. 8 9 10 11 12 So it's evident that, by the matter of number of days THE CHAIRMAN: But that assessment was made by the Secretary, correct? AMBASSADOR HALE: I don't remember exactly, but I can't conclude that anyone else would have made that assessment. THE CHAIRMAN: You also, I think, testified, that the President 13 had lost confidence in the Ambassador, and I want to drill down on that 14 as well. 15 The term "lost confidence" is one that can be applied in a number 16 of different circumstances -- as a diplomatic euphemism. 17 ultimately found no reason to credit the allegations against the 18 Ambassador, I think you have said, correct? 19 AMBASSADOR HALE: 20 THE CHAIRMAN: 21 You Correct. In fact, no one was able to find any merit to those allegations in that smear campaign. 22 AMBASSADOR HALE: 23 THE CHAIRMAN: No one that I know. And so there was an effort to find out if there 24 was any basis, and as a result of those efforts, including efforts by 25 the Secretary, the conclusion was there was no substance to these UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 1 attacks on her, correct? 2 AMBASSADOR HALE: 3 THE CHAIRMAN: That's right. So, when you say, or others say, that the President 4 lost confidence in the Ambassador, that was notwithstanding the 5 realization that the attacks on her had no basis, correct? 6 100 AMBASSADOR HALE: Well, it was the President who was taking the 7 position that he had lost confidence or had no confidence in the 8 Ambassador. 9 to be. I have no insight into what information or how that came I am just answering the questions about the interactions I had 10 with the Secretary of State on the allegations, in general, throughout 11 this period. 12 them unless he was shown credible evidence, and that never happened. 13 And throughout that period, he said he wouldn't credit THE CHAIRMAN: And so, the Secretary of State, to your knowledge, 14 never found credible evidence supporting these allegations against the 15 Ambassador, right? 16 AMBASSADOR HALE: 17 THE CHAIRMAN: 18 As far as I know. And you didn't, and the other people who reported to you didn't find any evidence to support that smear. 19 AMBASSADOR HALE: 20 THE CHAIRMAN: I never saw any. And so, if the President, nonetheless, to use the 21 parlance of lost confidence, it would have been on the basis of what, 22 what he was hearing from Rudy Giuliani or others? 23 AMBASSADOR HALE: 24 THE CHAIRMAN: 25 AMBASSADOR HALE: I can't speculate. Or from his son on Twitter? I couldn't speculate, Chairman. UNCLASSIFIED 101 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 THE CHAIRMAN: But it wasn't from the Secretary or anyone else at the Department, as far as you know. 3 AMBASSADOR HALE: 4 THE CHAIRMAN: 5 Now, you mentioned a readout of the May 23rd meeting that you received, correct? 6 AMBASSADOR HALE: 7 THE CHAIRMAN: 8 AMBASSADOR HALE: 9 THE CHAIRMAN: 10 A member of my staff. And was that member of your staff present during the meeting at the White House? AMBASSADOR HALE: 12 THE CHAIRMAN: 14 Yes. Who prepared that readout? 11 13 As far as I know. No. So how did the member of the staff get the information to prepare the readout for you? AMBASSADOR HALE: I don't know, but those -- I didn't ask. Those 15 kinds of readouts are usually provided by someone who was in the 16 meeting, who then provides it -- if they're from the State Department 17 would probably read it out to a member of their staff, who, given my 18 interest in the topic, my staff would then get that information from 19 that individual staff. 20 21 THE CHAIRMAN: That would be one normal way for that to occur. So someone in the meeting would have prepared the readout, and, eventually, it would have gotten to you? 22 AMBASSADOR HALE: 23 THE CHAIRMAN: That's right. Now, you mentioned what was in that readout, and 24 what was in that readout was kind of a more or less generic recitation 25 of U.S. policy toward Ukraine, correct? UNCLASSIFIED 102 UNCLASSIFIED 1 AMBASSADOR HALE: 2 THE CHAIRMAN: 3 Yes. There was nothing striking, any notable departure from U.S. policy in that readout. AMBASSADOR HALE: 4 No, the only departure from not so much policy 5 but the implementation of the policy was that the members of the 6 Presidential inauguration delegation were being entrusted with 7 carrying out, reaching the goals that were described in the meeting. THE CHAIRMAN: 8 9 But there was at least one very notable omission from that readout, wasn't there? 10 AMBASSADOR HALE: 11 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm not sure what you're asking, sir. You have become aware, have you not, that the 12 President, during that meeting, instructed those present that they 13 needed to talk to Rudy Giuliani. AMBASSADOR HALE: 14 15 was not in the readout, sir. THE CHAIRMAN: 16 17 I have no independent knowledge of that. It Yes. But you have become aware of that since, have you not? AMBASSADOR HALE: 18 Based on the things that have become public 19 since the whistleblower report and everything else that the committee 20 has been doing and so forth. THE CHAIRMAN: 21 Why would the person creating the readout leave 22 out the President's instruction that those he was now charging with 23 Ukraine policy needed to talk to Rudy Giuliani? AMBASSADOR HALE: 24 25 I couldn't speculate on that, sir. know. UNCLASSIFIED I don't 103 UNCLASSIFIED 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, here's someone, Rudy Giuliani, involved in 2 the smear campaign against Ambassador Yovanovith, and during this 3 meeting on Ukraine policy, the President is instructing the 4 participants to talk to Rudy Giuliani. 5 important piece of information for people to know about what took place 6 in that meeting? 7 AMBASSADOR HALE: Wouldn't that be a very All I know, Mr. Chairman, since I wasn't in the 8 meeting is that I read a readout of the meeting given to me by a member 9 of my staff. 10 all I knew. 11 It seemed like a perfectly normal readout. THE CHAIRMAN: And that is Wouldn't you have like to have known, though, that 12 one of the people involved in the smear campaign that ultimately 13 resulted in the recall of the Ambassador was mentioned during that 14 meeting, and the President had charged those present with working with 15 that person? 16 AMBASSADOR HALE: It's always good to get the fullest possible 17 readouts you can so you have a full understanding of what has happened 18 and what the President's intent is so we can try to meet that intent. 19 I had no reason to believe that I was not getting that. 20 21 22 23 THE CHAIRMAN: But you now have reason to believe you weren't getting that, do you not? AMBASSADOR HALE: Only because of what has been made public indirectly through the work of this committee and the whistleblower. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: 25 Kupperman chaired. I want to ask you also about the meeting that Dr. That was a deputy principals meeting, was it? UNCLASSIFIED 104 UNCLASSIFIED AMBASSADOR HALE: 1 2 Yes. It was technically called a deputy small group. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: And who's part of the deputy small group? 4 AMBASSADOR HALE: Well, it's composed of the Deputy Secretaries 5 for the most part, or whatever their title is, the deputies of each 6 of the agencies that has something at stake in foreign affairs. 7 my recollection is that that particular -- and the participation will 8 vary, possibly depending on the topic. 9 inviting. It's the NSC who does the That's chaired, of course, by Deputy National Security 10 Adviser Kupperman. 11 OSD, Energy, DHS. 12 I remember. 13 group. State Department was there, Treasury, OMB, JCS, That's not a comprehensive list. Those are the ones It was a large number of agencies, despite the title, small THE CHAIRMAN: 14 So And I think you mentioned that, as you went around 15 the room, everyone from the different policy areas advocated on behalf 16 of resumption of the Ukraine aid? AMBASSADOR HALE: 17 USAID was there as well. Yes, either they 18 endorsed the resumption of military aid, or they spoke of their own 19 aid programs and indicated they wanted their programs to continue as 20 well. 21 22 23 THE CHAIRMAN: And what did Dr. Kupperman -- what was his role during this meeting, and what do you recall him saying? AMBASSADOR HALE: My recollection is it was a fairly neutral 24 chairing of a meeting to gather the information from each agency and 25 what their position was on this matter. UNCLASSIFIED 105 UNCLASSIFIED 1 THE CHAIRMAN: And at some point, was it someone from OMB or 2 someone relating what they had heard from OMB that was the lone 3 objection? 4 5 AMBASSADOR HALE: The objection, the lone objection came from the -- directly from the representative of OMB. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: And who was that? 7 AMBASSADOR HALE: I don't remember the name of the person. 8 don't go to these meetings very often. 9 handles them. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: I Our Deputy Secretary normally And all that representative of OMB said was the 11 President has instructed, through Mr. Mulvaney, that that be suspended, 12 the military aid be suspended? 13 AMBASSADOR HALE: 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Essentially, yes. Now, my colleagues in the minority asked you about 15 an overall review of foreign assistance, and I want to make sure that 16 we're not conflating the two here. 17 foreign assistance, correct? 18 AMBASSADOR HALE: 19 THE CHAIRMAN: 20 21 It was an overall review of all That's right. But there was a very specific hold placed on this assistance to Ukraine for inexplicable reasons, was there not? AMBASSADOR HALE: That is correct. There was information that 22 came to me starting in late June that a hold had been placed on both 23 Ukraine assistance and Lebanon military assistance without any 24 explanation on those, about those holds; that's correct. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: And when you had that meeting chaired by Dr. UNCLASSIFIED 106 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Kupperman, it was clear that everyone was IN agreement that this aid 2 should be resumed. 3 AMBASSADOR HALE: 4 THE CHAIRMAN: With the exception of OMB. And, again, to distinguish between the overall 5 review of foreign assistance, I think you were asked by my colleagues 6 in the minority, well, aren't their circumstances where aid to a country 7 is withheld? 8 other than Ukraine was withheld in order to secure political 9 investigations of a political opponent of the President? Are you aware of circumstances in which aid to a country 10 AMBASSADOR HALE: 11 THE CHAIRMAN: 12 No. So the Pakistan aid wasn't withheld so that a political investigation of the Bidens could be done, was it? 13 AMBASSADOR HALE: 14 THE CHAIRMAN: That's correct, it was not. And the aid to the Northern Triangle wasn't 15 withheld because there was an effort to get political investigations 16 involving the Bidens, was there? 17 AMBASSADOR HALE: 18 Mr. PERRY: That's correct; it was not. Mr. Chairman, I want to object. I mean, you're 19 making some pretty loose assumptions there, based on -- it's fair that 20 that's your opinion. 21 the fact of the matter, and it is not established as the fact of the 22 matter. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: But you're asking the witness as if that were I appreciate that. And in your questions, you can 24 seek to flesh that out any further as you like. 25 counsel seeking to conflate a suspension in foreign assistance with UNCLASSIFIED But it was the minority UNCLASSIFIED 107 1 what happened with Ukraine, and I think they are two very different 2 illustrations. 3 But I take it, the circumstances involving the suspension of aid 4 to Jordan did not involve a request for political investigations, did 5 it? 6 7 AMBASSADOR HALE: I think maybe you misspoke, Mr. Chairman, about Jordan. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry; Lebanon. 9 AMBASSADOR HALE: I see. No, we didn't -- no one explained to 10 us in either case, Ukraine or Lebanon, the reasoning behind the hold, 11 or the freeze really. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Goldman. BY MR. GOLDMAN: 13 14 Q When was the Lebanon aid released? 15 A It's still not been released. 16 Q And has there been a reason provided? 17 A No. 18 19 I mean, we -- it appears to be that there is a dispute over the efficacy of the assistance to Q Does it relate to some of the concerns about 20 how the aid is being used 21 your knowledge? 22 A 23 Q 24 25 and , to Was there -- if the aid has not been released at this point, was there a reprogramming or rescission request made? A . On Lebanon? UNCLASSIFIED 108 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Q Yes. 2 A Not yet. 3 Q Was it 2-year money or 1-year money? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q Okay. 6 It's still a pending matter before agencies. And so you still -- have you -- has the State Department been provided with a reason why the hold has been withheld? 7 A Officially, no; formally, in no way, in no manner. 8 Q How about informally? 9 A Not even informally, no. We just understand there are 10 differences of opinion on this, or there had been. 11 rests with OMB. 12 outside of OMB. 13 14 Q I don't think that the differences currently exist And was this congressionally authorized aid as well to Lebanon? 15 A I'm pretty sure of it, yeah. 16 Q You think so? 17 A Yeah. 18 19 20 And the matter now Yes. I mean, I don't know the ins and outs of legislation as well as others perhaps, but -Q Okay. We will circle back to this issue in a bit. But I want to go back to where we ended the first round. 21 Before I do that, though, you indicated that you were careful not 22 to speak to other potential witnesses prior to, once the whistleblower 23 complaint was made public and the call record from the July 25th call 24 was made public. 25 Did you have any conversations though with Secretary Pompeo about UNCLASSIFIED 109 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 this investigation? A We have had one conversation I can remember in which it was 3 just -- maybe two conversations, just a general comment he made 4 that -- and I made as well, that the State Department is going to have 5 to continue to stay focused on America's business and the conduct of 6 our foreign policy throughout this period, including our Ukraine 7 policy. That was one conversation we had. 8 The second conversation we had in which, again, we came back to 9 the point that we needed to make sure that we were continuing to focus 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 on our policy goals in Ukraine. Q Did the Secretary make any comments to you about the propriety of this investigation? A We have not discussed anything other than what I just described. Q It was entirely -- both conversations were entirely about Ukraine policy? A That was the focus of the conversations. I can't swear that I remember every word uttered in the meeting. Q Did you have any discussion about whether the State Department would cooperate with the investigation? 21 A We didn't, he and I did not discuss that. 22 Q After you were asked to come testify, did you have any 23 It is not my area. conversation with Secretary Pompeo about your own testimony? 24 A No. 25 Q Did you -- other than any formal correspondence through the UNCLASSIFIED 110 UNCLASSIFIED 1 legal adviser, did you have any conversations where anyone discouraged 2 you from testifying? 3 A No, the contrary. 4 Q Who encouraged you? 5 A Well, when I received the letter from the committee, I 6 notified, by email, the Secretary's office, and then directly notified, 7 by email, the Deputy Secretary, the under Secretary for management, 8 the legal adviser, and the head of legislative affairs to say I just 9 received this letter. 10 I just want you to know. I got no reaction to the email. And after -- I guess it was 11 yesterday I had a discussion with the Deputy Secretary, and he said -- I 12 just wanted to make sure that he knew I was coming. 13 I didn't think anyone didn't know. 14 people weren't surprised when I came. 15 legislative affairs knew it because they were working on the 16 arrangements. 17 18 19 20 21 22 But I just wanted to make sure Our legal adviser knew it and But I just wanted to make certain that it registered. And he said, by all means, and he said do what your lawyer and your conscience tell you to do. Q Did you receive any formal writing, formal correspondence telling you not to appear? A There was this form letter that my attorney received, which I frankly, I glanced at it. I didn't read it. 23 Q What did that say? 24 A Well, everyone knows what it said. 25 It was in the news. reasons -- it was sent to you. UNCLASSIFIED It basically says for 111 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Mr. GLASSER: It's essentially an attachment -- it's just a form 2 letter stating the position of the Department about documents and 3 attaching the 10-page letter from the White House by Counsel Cippione 4 (ph), I think, something like that. 5 6 Mr. GOLDMAN: Okay. But you were -- it did not direct you not to appear. 7 Mr. GLASSER: No, or if it did, we didn't follow it. 8 have to go look for it. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: I mean, I'd We did not -- it didn't matter. Ambassador, you mentioned -- and you gave the 10 title, but I don't know who you're referring to that you went to talk 11 to, to just alert them, to make sure they knew you were coming here 12 today. And who was that you spoke with? 13 AMBASSADOR HALE: 14 THE CHAIRMAN: 15 AMBASSADOR HALE: 16 THE CHAIRMAN: 17 Last night? The Deputy Secretary of State. Could you tell us his name? John Sullivan. So you told John Sullivan, and he said: You know, by all means, do what your conscience and your lawyer recommend? 18 AMBASSADOR HALE: 19 THE CHAIRMAN: That's right. Are you aware that Mr. Brechbuhl was also supposed 20 to testify today, but I believe he is on a plane out of the country 21 right now? 22 AMBASSADOR HALE: I had heard that he had been -- and I don't know 23 who told me, but I heard that he had been called up. 24 media that he was supposed to appear today. 25 of my lawyer and I were having a meeting to prepare for this, and I UNCLASSIFIED It was in the And it was in the course 112 UNCLASSIFIED 1 was informed in that meeting by my attorneys, I believe, that he 2 had -- was not going to be appearing. 3 4 5 6 Maybe you heard that from -- well, I don't want to put words in your mouth. THE CHAIRMAN: And do you know whether he was given a different instruction than you were by the Deputy Secretary? 7 AMBASSADOR HALE: 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you. BY MR. GOLDMAN: 9 10 I have no idea. Q Going back to shortly after Ambassador Yovanovitch was 11 removed, and I want to address one issue that came up from the minority's 12 questioning. 13 Department requested that Ambassador Yovanovitch extend her stay was 14 because Ukraine was going through elections? 15 A Is it fair to say that one of the reasons that the State Yes. I mean, her testimony refreshed my memory of this 16 conversation, so, I don't know -- I read it when you released it. 17 do remember also that the conversation partly was about the fact that 18 there was, I think, in October, Rada elections, and it made sense for 19 the Ambassador to see through that process. 20 when I was in Ukraine and had been talking to her. 21 Q I This was in early March So, maybe you misspoke, but the fact of a foreign country 22 having elections is actually a reason to encourage continuity among 23 U.S. Ambassadors, not discourage continuity. 24 25 A I think it is a case-by-case matter. situation. Is that right? You have to assess the Most of the time, actually, it would not be a factor at UNCLASSIFIED 113 UNCLASSIFIED 1 all. 2 schedule of their assignments. 3 are a lot of times where it is deemed prudent to have an Ambassador 4 transition out at a different time than that. 5 6 7 I mean, most of the time, we would rotate our Ambassadors on the Q Usually, that is the norm, but there But certainly, in this case, it was a factor in extending her stay, the Ukrainian elections? A Well, this was an idea that I had when I was with her, was 8 that I knew that a vacancy was going to be upon us when she left, and 9 it seemed to me, given her performance there, and the elections 10 schedule, that there was some logic to asking to see if she would be 11 willing to stay for some time longer. 12 I had. 13 I had not checked with anyone on that. 14 process of extending her had gotten very far in the decisionmaking 15 stream. I had not checked with anyone on that. I think she knew that And I don't think that the Right. Well, 11 days after you left Ukraine, these articles 17 came out, right? And you have testified here, and no one disputes that 18 the ambassadors serve at the pleasure of the President. 19 President believes that -- well, withdrawn. 16 20 21 Q That is a conversation she and But if a The President did not remove Ambassador Yovanovitch at the beginning of his term in early 2017, right? 22 A Yes. 23 Q I mean, she served almost her full 3 years in the end, right? 24 A That's right. 25 Q Notwithstanding the fact that the President felt the need UNCLASSIFIED 114 UNCLASSIFIED 1 to recall her just shy of her 3 years, correct? 2 A Correct. 3 Q After she left and was recalled, there was no Ambassador or 4 Charge in Ukraine until Ambassador Taylor got there in mid-June. 5 that right? 6 A That is not technically correct. Is Any time an Ambassador 7 leaves the country, whoever is next in the line of command automatically 8 Charge d'affaires unless there is some reason, unusual circumstance 9 where you want to make someone else that, take that role. 10 Q And the person underneath the Ambassador or Charge 11 d'affaires is commonly referred to as the DCM, the Deputy Chief of 12 Mission? 13 A Correct. 14 Q And were you aware that around this time the Deputy Chief 15 16 of Mission who had been in Ukraine also left? A Yeah, that was part of the problem. I mean, it may have been 17 a factor in my thinking about having the Ambassador stay longer. 18 don't really remember that. 19 I said "case by case," why we evaluate the circumstances. I But those are the kinds of things, when 20 Q Right. 21 A What was clear was that we wanted a senior officer, a seasoned 22 senior officer, preferably at the Ambassador rank to be there. 23 Q Why? 24 A Because of the importance of Ukraine. 25 Q But there was clearly a void because the DCM had left, or UNCLASSIFIED 115 UNCLASSIFIED 1 was leaving; Ambassador Yovanovitch was recalled; and so no one with 2 much experience who was on the ground in Kyiv after Ambassador 3 Yovanovitch was recalled, correct? A 4 I don't remember exactly who played the charge role during 5 that relatively brief period. 6 and an extensive body of expertise and competence amongst our Foreign 7 Service officers and other agencies represented on the country team. Q 8 9 10 was, that received some press attention? A 15 I later recalled it. Do you recall that? In researching for this deposition, I saw the New York Times story about that. 13 14 Do you recall a time in, around May 9th, when the public became aware of a trip to Ukraine that Mayor Giuliani had planned that 11 12 But we have, of course, a country team Q But you do not recall seeing the New York Times story at the A I was surprised when I saw that it was forwarded to me at time? 16 that time, and I had not remembered it until I saw the email to prepare 17 for this moment. 18 Q But it was forwarded to you at the time? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And around this time, had you indicated to your staff and 21 others that you wanted to be a little bit more engaged with Ukraine 22 issues? 23 A I don't remember that, per se. I think that, since the fact 24 that I had gone to Ukraine and there were elections coming, it's a normal 25 thing for my staff to keep my informed. UNCLASSIFIED 116 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Q Well, you had just said that you, in relation to the May 23rd 2 readout, that you had a particular interest in Ukraine around that time. 3 Obviously, with everything going on with Ambassador Yovanovitch, was 4 it fair to say that you were more focused on Ukraine than you might 5 otherwise be around this time because of these issues? 6 A No. I tend to focus on where there is a current problem. 7 Q And there was a current problem with Ukraine, correct? 8 A What timeframe are you talking about? 9 Q I'm talking about the April-May timeframe. 10 A Well, the issue of the Ambassador had -- you know, the issue 11 of the campaign about the Ambassador had more or less ceased at the 12 end of March and early April, and then we faced another issue to focus 13 on when the President met with -- the issue was really the composition 14 of the Presidential inaugural delegation, its composition, and then 15 the guidance that the President was giving to it. 16 substantive focus. 17 18 Q That was the When you prepared for your testimony today, did you reread that New York Times article? 19 A I did, yeah. 20 Q And so you saw in it where Mr. Giuliani states that he 21 intended to go to Ukraine to press the Ukrainian government to initiate 22 two investigations that would benefit the President, one related to 23 the Bidens and Burisma, and the other related to the 2016 election? 24 A Yes, that's in that New York Times article. 25 Q And at the time, that would have confirmed some of the UNCLASSIFIED 117 UNCLASSIFIED 1 information provided to you by Ambassador Yovanovitch in her email of 2 March 24th, correct? 3 A I didn't -- I don't remember, frankly, my reaction to the 4 New York Times article. 5 policy pieces of this. 6 I just want to emphasize, my focus was on the Ulrich Brechbuhl, the Counselor of the Department, was 7 focused -- was the point person on issues, as I mentioned, related to 8 the Ambassador and her status and the issues of this campaign. 9 Q We understand, Ambassador Hale. But as you can imagine, 10 there comes a point where official U.S. policy collides with unofficial 11 efforts to promote other policies. 12 understanding of what other efforts may have been is relevant to your 13 testimony here today. 14 And so your knowledge and So the real question -- we fully understand that your focus is 15 on policy, that you have a very broad portfolio. 16 really is, do you recall, in mid-May, understanding that Mayor Giuliani 17 was pressing, or intended to press Ukrainian officials to conduct these 18 two investigations? 19 A As I said, I did not remember the New York Times article until 20 I was researching for this gathering. 21 I see a lot of things said, that people say. 22 But the question I see a lot of news reports. I knew that Ulrich was handling these matters, or had been, in 23 any event, and nothing seemed to come of it. Usually, when you see 24 a report like that, if there is an issue to follow up, then people are 25 bringing to you more to follow up on. That didn't occur, to my UNCLASSIFIED 118 UNCLASSIFIED 1 knowledge. 2 focused instead on the issue of the Presidential delegation, which, 3 came forth not long after that. 4 5 6 Q He didn't travel to Kyiv, and we focused instead -- I was Although, are you aware that they did not announce the inaugural date until about a week after this article? A Yeah. I'm not saying that I was focused on the inauguration 7 on May 9, May 10. I'm just saying, in the sequence of things, the event 8 I was looking toward, and we were all preparing mentally for the fact 9 that there was going to be an inauguration, and how were we going to 10 use that moment? 11 officials to attend those inaugurations to demonstrate our position 12 toward the country and to push forward certain policies. 13 Q These are important for us because we can get senior The information that Mr. Guiliani is quoted as saying in that 14 article confirmed some of the email that Ambassador Yovanovitch wrote 15 to you that you referred to be speculative. 16 accurate reading right now, having reread it in preparation for this? 17 A Is that at least an If the New York Times article is accurate, it did seem to 18 touch on some of the same matters that Ambassador Yovanovitch 19 speculated on may have been part of why she was encountering a smear 20 campaign. 21 investigations. But Ambassador Yovanovitch did not discuss any 22 Q She just discussed -- what did she discuss? 23 A She just discussed -- the thrust of her email was to list 24 a number of things that might or might not have been 25 behind -- motivations behind Mayor Giuliani's involvement in these UNCLASSIFIED 119 UNCLASSIFIED 1 allegations against the Ambassador if he was, in fact, involved. 2 was no evidence of that in that email. 3 There And it included a reference to -- there was references to his 4 business interests in Ukraine, which was the body of the text. 5 there was one reference to the fact that bringing up this issue 6 involving Vice President Biden's son might be attractive because it 7 would remind people of a problem that the Vice President has. UNCLASSIFIED And 120 UNCLASSIFIED 1 [1:00 p.m.] MR. GOLDMAN: 2 And so, at that time, these were just allegations. 3 There was -- 4 A Yeah. 5 Q -- no discussion of whether there would be investigations 6 into the allegations? A 7 8 There was nothing in her email, to my memory, that referred to any kind of investigation. Q 9 And I want to go back to another George Kent email, whether 10 it was narratives or another description. 11 email from George Kent where he described four categories of 12 allegations that were included in those John Solomon articles in The 13 Hill? 14 A Did you ever receive an As I said earlier, I don't remember an email that outlined 15 four categories. 16 about The Hill story. 17 trends going on: 18 in response to The Hill story; and other related theme was what would 19 we do -- what was behind the smear campaign, if that's what you call 20 it, and what were we going -- what were we thinking about that? 21 Q I do know that there was quite a number of emails And as I said earlier, there were basically two One was press guidance basically, what would we do Within the State Department, as far as you were aware, did 22 anyone know whether there was any factual basis to the allegations 23 related to the Biden-Burisma allegations or the Ukrainian interference 24 in the 2016 election? 25 A Could you repeat the beginning of the question? UNCLASSIFIED 121 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Q Within the State Department, as far as you knew -- 2 A Yeah. 3 Q -- was there -- were you informed or were you notified or 4 were you provided any factual basis to support the allegations related 5 to the Biden-Burisma allegations and the Ukrainian interference in the 6 2016 election? 7 A 8 And I do want to emphasize that I did not focus on that aspect 9 of things. Q 10 11 No. I never saw any evidence of that. It did not seem to be relevant to what -- No. You have emphasized that. We understand. And we're just trying to understand your vantage point here. The -- when -- were you aware of any conversations within the 12 13 State Department in response to The New York Times article which 14 outlined Mr. Giuliani's intention to go to Ukraine to press for these 15 investigations? 16 17 18 19 A No. I have no recollection of any discussions related to Q The State Department did not try to intervene in any way as that. far as you know? 20 A I have no information about what happened. 21 Q Would you have been concerned if a private citizen was going 22 over to press Ukrainian officials to do investigations that -- specific 23 investigations that would benefit the President? 24 25 A It wasn't clear to me at the time that that was, in fact, happening. UNCLASSIFIED 122 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Q I understand. 2 A So you're asking me a hypothetical question, and I really 3 4 don't wish to speculate. Q Were you aware that Mr. Giuliani told a Ukrainian journalist 5 on May 14th that Ambassador Yovanovitch was recalled because she was 6 part of the efforts against the President? 7 A That's the first time hearing that. To my recollection, I 8 have not seen that in my research to get ready, and I don't remember 9 that from the time. 10 11 Q But that was consistent with the allegations related to Ambassador Yovanovitch in The Hill articles in March. Is that right? 12 A That's right. 13 Q Do you recall a meeting that you had with Fiona Hill and 14 Philip Reeker on May 16th? 15 A Yes. 16 Q What do you remember from that meeting? 17 A Very little. I really don't remember an intensive 18 discussion of Ukraine. The meeting notes that were prepared for my 19 meeting said that we were going to be discussing the composition of 20 the Presidential delegation for the inauguration. 21 I recall -- my memory of the meeting is more about Russia, frankly. 22 We were trying to think of ways in which we could renew more senior 23 and more sustained engagement of Russia. 24 has had its difficulties, and so there was -- there were proposals that 25 I go to restart a long, suspended political dialogue with my counterpart UNCLASSIFIED The relationship, of course, UNCLASSIFIED 123 1 to discuss the issues around the world, that we would also resume 2 counterterrorist dialogues that we have held in the past and that the 3 Deputy Secretary would conduct, and we discussed also resuming arms 4 control discussions that Under Secretary for those matters, Andrea 5 Thompson (ph), would conduct, and all of those things actually did 6 unfold. 7 8 9 And my recollection is that that's the strongest memory I have from that meeting, again, because it was operational for me. Q And given that -- the issues with Russia as you've described 10 some of them, where does Ukraine fit in in U.S. policy in countering 11 concerns -- Russian concerns or Russian aggression? 12 A Well, it's a major, major dimension of why we have a strained 13 relationship with Russia, is because of their occupation of large parts 14 of Ukraine. 15 continual topic of disagreement in all of our exchanges. 16 17 Q That's why we have the sanctions in place, and it's a And so Ukraine is an important ally for the United States in fighting Russia? "Fighting" may not be the right word. 18 A Yeah. 19 Q In combating Russia. 20 A I'm not sure I'd use the word "ally," but partner, certainly. 21 And because of what Russia's doing to target Ukraine, that's one of 22 the reasons we wanted to strengthen Ukraine's resilience to counter 23 that kind of pressure. 24 25 Q Do you remember the topic of Ambassador Sondland coming up in that May 16th meeting with Dr. Hill? UNCLASSIFIED 124 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 A I don't. Again, we were discussing the composition of the Presidential delegation, so it's possible it came up. Q Did you recall having any discussion about Ambassador Sondland's irregular role in Ukraine at that meeting? A Well, any time Ambassador Sondland came up, there is usually 6 a discussion of the fact that he was involving himself in matters that, 7 I think, went beyond the normal writ of an Ambassador to the European 8 Union. 9 Q That includes Ukraine, but as well as other countries? 10 A That's right. 11 Q Were you aware at that May 16th meeting that Ambassador 12 Sondland wanted to go to the inauguration as part of the U.S. 13 delegation? 14 A I don't remember that, but, again, I'm not surprised if it 15 was -- it would not surprise me that we discussed that at the time, 16 but I don't remember that. 17 Q Do you recall having any concerns whether -- at this point 18 or even after the May 23rd White House meeting where he was tasked by 19 the President to handle Ukraine policy, with the fact that Ambassador 20 Sondland was taking such an active role in Ukraine matters? 21 A Well, the State Department had not recommended that 22 Ambassador Sondland be on the delegation. 23 of recommendations that the Vice President lead the delegation and that 24 officials who were in the normal line of authority for Ukraine policy, 25 including Ambassador Volker, be among those on the delegation. UNCLASSIFIED We had sent a different set 125 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Ambassador Sondland's name was not among them. 2 Q Do you know how it got -- how he was ultimately invited? 3 A I don't know. It was confirmed only when I saw the 4 announcement of the delegation and the readout that came from meeting 5 that the Secretary -- excuse me -- the President had with the 6 delegation in which he affirmed not only -- well, it was clear who was 7 going to be on the delegation. 8 going to be responsible for pursuing the goals that he spelled out. 9 10 11 12 Q And he affirmed that that group was Were you aware of Ambassador Sondland's relationship with President Trump? A Only the things that Ambassador Sondland said about that relationship. 13 Q What did he say to you? 14 A Well, I've only met him a few times. I went to Brussels and 15 he came to my office a couple times. 16 definitely wanted people to know that he had direct access to the 17 President, and he would often invoke the President's name for certain 18 things he wanted and he was pursuing. 19 problematic. 20 Q He's a political appointee? 21 A Political appointee, exactly. 22 Q Do you know whether he had regular communication with the 23 It was hard to pin down. He None of it struck me as I mean -- chief of staff office or -- 24 A I don't know. 25 Q -- the chief of staff? UNCLASSIFIED 126 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A I don't know. 2 Q And you don't know ultimately why the Vice President did not 3 go to the -- 4 A I don't know. 5 Q -- to the inauguration? 6 Your meeting with Ambassador Taylor was after he met with 7 Secretary Pompeo, correct? 8 A I think so, yes. 9 Q You said you met on June 7th with Ambassador Taylor? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q You testified earlier that you had a July 2nd communication 12 13 with Kurt Volker. A I met him on June 7th. Is that right? My notes said -- and maybe I misspoke earlier -- but on 14 July 2nd, Ambassador Taylor emailed me to just draw my attention to 15 the fact that the Secretary was reported to be saying that the President 16 had invited Zelensky to Washington, and he was just reminding me of 17 that and reminding me that it was important that we nail that down. 18 19 20 Q Okay. Were you aware that Kurt Volker met with the President of Ukraine on July 2nd in Toronto? A Yes. I was aware that that meeting was coming. At one 21 point, it was suggested that I might attend the meeting. 22 possible, because of my schedule, for me to go, so we -- I didn't 23 remember, but it would not be a surprise that we sent Ambassador Volker, 24 given his direct responsibilities for this, to that meeting, with a 25 number of countries attending. UNCLASSIFIED It was not 127 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Q And to the extent -- go ahead. 2 A Well, it was a group meeting with Zelensky, and then he may 3 have had his own meeting with him. 4 meeting. In fact, I know he had his own The Embassy in Ottawa reported on that meeting. 5 Q What did they report? 6 A Well, I reread the cable again to prepare for today. It was, 7 again, just a straightforward account discussing what President 8 Zelensky's plans were on all the agenda items that we had and that I've 9 mentioned earlier. 10 11 12 And it also noted that Ambassador Volker was encouraging President Zelensky to make a call to President Trump. Q Did it include anything about a reference to investigations that Ambassador Volker discussed with President Zelensky? 13 A I don't believe so, no. 14 Q That would be something outside of the normal official 15 16 17 18 policy. A Is that right? Well, it wasn't presented in anything I'd ever seen about what it is that we were trying to achieve. Q I understand you don't want to speculate. We understand 19 that you don't have firsthand knowledge of any of this activity related 20 to these investigations, but you are very familiar with official State 21 Department policy and procedures and readouts and cables. 22 23 And the real question, I guess, to you is that these readouts and these cables are official State Department documents. Is that right? 24 A Correct. 25 Q And so they are created with some degree of care and UNCLASSIFIED 128 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 precision with an eye towards being official documents, right? A Certainly cables and memos are. I think people are sloppier, to be honest, about email. Q So, if, let's say -- and it's a hypothetical -- but it 5 wouldn't surprise you if Ambassador Volker had a conversation with 6 President Zelensky about urging him to conduct specific 7 investigations, that that wouldn't be in an official cable if that 8 occurred? 9 A Well, I think all of us have been in a situation where we 10 have a sensitive topic to raise, and we might do that in a one-on-one 11 in which the notetaker's not present and we may choose to report that 12 back to whoever we believe needs to hear about it orally. 13 with some frequency. That happens 14 Q Are you familiar with a July 10th meeting at the White House? 15 Did you want to jump in, Mr. Chairman? 16 THE CHAIRMAN: 17 I take it that Ambassador Volker never discussed with you, along Yeah, before we go to that. 18 the lines you mentioned, a more private oral conversation, never 19 discussed with you any conversations he may have had with President 20 Zelensky or members of President Zelensky's team about investigations 21 that President Zelensky should either raise with the President or be 22 aware that the President would want conducted? 23 AMBASSADOR HALE: 24 THE CHAIRMAN: 25 AMBASSADOR HALE: About investigations? Yes. That's correct. UNCLASSIFIED I never heard that. And, in UNCLASSIFIED 129 1 fact, I only heard -- only had an exchange verbal or written with 2 Ambassador Volker when I first met him in the fall of 2018, the first 3 and last meeting with Ambassador Volker, to my memory. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: So, initially, it was thought you might go to the 5 meeting, but then it was decided that Ambassador Volker could cover 6 the meeting. 7 didn't appear in the readout and he never relayed it to you orally? 8 AMBASSADOR HALE: That's correct. BY MR. GOLDEN: 9 10 But if Ambassador Volker had those conversations, they Q And to your knowledge, you never got any reports from the 11 Acting Assistant Secretary or DAS Kent related to any of those 12 investigations that -- any discussions related to an investigation? 13 A I have no recollection of hearing about that. 14 Q And so what was the reporting structure -- what were the 15 reporting requirements of Ambassador Volker and Ambassador Sondland 16 if they were tasked with pursuing this Ukraine policy by the President 17 on May 23rd? 18 A I don't know what -- all I know from that meeting was the 19 readout I shared with you earlier. There was nothing in the readout 20 I received that offered information on that. 21 As I said earlier, I was confident -- Ambassador Volker reports 22 to the Secretary of State, and I was confident that on the delegation, 23 we had someone with great expertise and who was a great professional, 24 so I had no reason to be suspicious or worried about anything. 25 Q And would you have expected Ambassador Sondland to report UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 1 130 up the chain ultimately to you through proper channels? 2 A I would expect that, yes. 3 Q And were you aware -- have you seen the text messages that 4 have been now published? 5 A I may not have seen all of them, but I've -- yes, I've -- 6 Q And did you -- 7 A -- seen the ones that got the most of the media attention. 8 Q Right. You saw the text message from Ambassador Volker to 9 Andrey Yermak, a senior official, Ukrainian official, advising him that 10 if President Zelensky emphasizes the investigations and getting to the 11 bottom of what happened in the election, that a White House meeting 12 would follow? 13 A The question was whether I knew about -- 14 Q Whether you read -- 15 A I did not. 16 Q Yeah. 17 But that was not official State Department U.S. policy? 18 MR. GLASSER: 19 AMBASSADOR HALE: 20 Oh, I read the emails, yes. Can we get straight on the timeline? Yeah. I read those when they became public knowledge. BY MR. GOLDEN: 21 22 Q Right. I understand you were not privy to them -- 23 A Yeah. 24 Q -- and you were not present. 25 A Yeah. UNCLASSIFIED 131 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Q But as you read them and reacted to them as the 2 policy -- overseeing all policy for the State Department, would you 3 assess that that type of statement was not a part of official U.S. policy 4 towards Ukraine? 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 A with anything that I had seen in terms of policy guidance. MR. GOLDMAN: I believe our time is up, so we'll yield to the minority. THE CHAIRMAN: Forty-five minutes for the minority. Ambassador, if you need a break at any time, let us know. It doesn't have to be when we break. AMBASSADOR HALE: Thank you. BY MR. CASTOR: 13 14 I was surprised when I saw them, and it was not consistent Q You spoke this morning about the sub-PCC and small group 15 meeting and some of the official meetings that the National Security 16 Council convenes over the security assistance. 17 type of process is also in effect for loan guaranties? Do you know if that 18 A Related to Ukraine? 19 Q Yeah. 20 A This is the first time I've heard the question arise, so I'm 21 22 23 not -- no one's brought my attention to that. Q Okay. So the funds at issue were the FMF, or foreign military? 24 A That's right. 25 Q And the State Department controls that money? UNCLASSIFIED 132 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A It's a State Department account, yes. 2 Q And then the Ukrainian Security Assistance Initiative? 3 A That's right. 4 Q That's a DOD account? 5 A That's right. 6 Q And do you know any other pots of money or forms of assistance 7 8 9 that go through that process, the sub-PCC and so forth? A Yeah. I mean, my guess -- I didn't get a detailed readout on other aspects of it. It was the freeze of the security assistance 10 that was the big issue, but that group will discuss all assistance to 11 Ukraine. 12 meeting, and when they went around the room, although it was clear that 13 the agenda for the National Security was the frozen security 14 assistance, many agencies felt that it was a moment for them to also 15 advocate for continuation of their own security assistance. 16 17 18 19 20 And as I said, when we had the Deputies Committee small group I focused my comments on what I thought was the germane issue at the time, which was the security assistance. Q Okay. But you're not aware of how the loan guaranty programs are -- some of the IMF-sponsored programs and so forth? A I've not been briefed up on that. 21 there -- of there being an issue there. 22 me, anyway. 23 Q 24 25 I'm not aware of that -- of It certainly does not involve Are you aware of Vice President Biden's role in Ukrainian policy? A I was in Pakistan. I was in Lebanon and Pakistan for the UNCLASSIFIED 133 UNCLASSIFIED 1 entire second term of the Obama administration. 2 on Ukraine. 3 Q Okay. 4 A Not at the time. Q Okay. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 I just was not focused Were you aware that he had an interest in Ukraine? I am now, with all the news that's come out. And would that be considered a regular channel to have the Vice President manage Ukraine policy? A I don't know that he did. It's a hypothetical question. But the Vice President in many different administrations have been given or take responsibility for certain discrete relationships. I remember Vice President Gore had a very intense and structured dialogue with the Russians, with his Russian counterpart. Q Okay. Are you aware of the instance when Vice President 14 Biden talked about his effort to secure the firing of Prosecutor General 15 Shokin? 16 A Only when I've seen these TV and other reports about that. 17 Q He talked about, you know, being in Ukraine 12 or 13 times, 18 and there was another, you know, $1 billion loan guaranty that was in 19 the balance and that he used that to secure the firing of a prosecutor 20 general. 21 And the question is, is that something that a Vice President can 22 do that cleanly, or is there a more structured front-end process that 23 the State Department would have had to go through before something like 24 that would actually happen? 25 A Again, you're asking me questions about matters of which I UNCLASSIFIED 134 UNCLASSIFIED 1 have absolutely no specific knowledge because I was far removed at the 2 time. 3 Q I mean, you're -- 4 A What you're asking me is sort of a generic question about 5 how we conduct our business, and it would really be case by case. 6 mean, Vice Presidents can be very effective in advocating for policies 7 of the President of our Nation on trips or in other ways. 8 9 10 Q I Just given your experience as a senior State Department person, there would likely be a relatively complete record of events of that? 11 A I would hope so. 12 Q Okay. At various points today, we talked about the 13 allegation that the Ukrainian Government or certain Ukrainians may have 14 interfered or tried to interfere in the 2016 election. 15 any information related to that? Do you have 16 A I do not. 17 Q Were you aware that there were some distinct efforts of some 18 certain Ukrainians? 19 A I have no knowledge of that. 20 Q Have you read news accounts? 21 A I have seen the news reports, yes. 22 Q Okay. 23 Like, were you aware that the Ambassador had written an op-ed against candidate Trump? 24 A Which ambassador? 25 Q The Ukrainian Ambassador to the United States. UNCLASSIFIED 135 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A I'm not aware of that until you said that said so. 2 Q Okay. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: I think it was -- Counsel, it was an op-ed against 4 the President's statements about Crimea. 5 against the President per se. 6 7 MR. CASTOR: Ambassador: MR. GOLDMAN: 9 MR. CASTOR: 10 MR. MEADOWS: 12 13 14 15 At the time, the title of the op-ed is "Ukraine's Trump's comments send wrong message to world?" 8 11 I don't know that it was Do you have a copy of it? Yeah. Mr. Goldman, are you suggesting this is the first time you've heard about this or would read this? MR. GOLDMAN: Well, Mr. Meadows, the witness just said he had never heard about it, so I want to make sure he's -MR. MEADOWS: I'm asking about -- I'm asking about you, Mr. Goldman. 16 MR. GOLDMAN: I am -- I'm very familiar with it. 17 MR. MEADOWS: I'm assuming by your smile that this is not the 18 first time you've heard of that. 19 MR. CASTOR: 20 MR. GOLDMAN: This is exhibit 1? Yes. 21 [Minority Exhibit No. 1 22 was marked for identification.] BY MR. CASTOR: 23 24 25 Q This is just a marked copy. The other one you can use to write on if you need to. UNCLASSIFIED 136 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Just -- the question I had about this is, do you think the 2 Ukrainian Ambassador to the United States would be able to draft an 3 op-ed and have it placed without the okay of his government back in 4 Ukraine? 5 A I don't know what Ukrainian Government procedures are. I 6 know what American -- our government's procedures are. 7 not -- an American Ambassador would not place an op-ed item without 8 it being thoroughly cleared and vetted. 9 10 11 Q Okay. I mean, in your experience, do you know Ambassador Chaly, the former Ambassador? A the election. 13 to be honest with you. 15 16 17 18 19 Q Have you ever met him? I met the Ukrainian Ambassador who has been in office until 12 14 We would Okay. I don't really remember if it's the same guy or not, But you would think that if he was going to place that op-ed, he would have had the authority of President Poroshenko? A That's a speculative thing. nothing to do with Ukraine. Q Okay. And as of this time, I had I can't answer the question. Are you aware of the effort to -- of some Ukrainians to publish the role of Paul Manafort in his consulting work? 20 A I have no direct knowledge of that. 21 Q But you've heard of it being reported? 22 A I've heard various media reports about Paul Manafort, and 23 24 25 I've certainly watched the trials and so forth. Q There was a Ukrainian investigative journalist who went on to become a remember of the Rada, Serhiy Leshchenko. UNCLASSIFIED Does that name UNCLASSIFIED 1 ring a bell? 2 A Leshchenko? 3 Q Yeah. 4 A Yes. 5 Q What do you know about him? 6 A Isn't that the name of the prosecutor general? 7 Q Oh. 8 A Lutsenko. 9 Q Fair enough. 10 A -- as I've just proven. 11 Q So you don't have any knowledge of this 137 That's Lutsenko. Sorry. I'm not an expert on Ukraine -- 12 investigative-journalist-and-turned-parliamentarian Leshchenko and 13 his role in publicizing information about Paul Manafort? 14 A I mean, the name rings a bell, and I obviously was following, 15 as every -- all Americans interested in the news were following the 16 events related to Mr. Manafort. 17 in the way in which I had something to do about it, so -- 18 19 Q And I wasn't -- had no intense focus But were you aware there was a Ukrainian -- a current Ukrainian nexus during the 2016 time period? 20 A I didn't know that myself, no. 21 Q Are you familiar with a Ukraine Minister of Internal Affairs, 22 Avakov? 23 A Again, I've seen the name, yes. 24 Q And are you aware that he had some negative comments about 25 then-candidate Trump on social media outlets during the 2016 election? UNCLASSIFIED 138 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A I wasn't aware of that till -- 2 Q And -- but have you become aware of it since? 3 A Again, I can't say I didn't see a piece of paper from the 4 media that had that. 5 now. 6 Q Okay. I had not focused on it until you mentioned it But, collectively, though, you're aware of these 7 various pieces of, you know, information that give rise to the question 8 of whether Ukrainians tried to exert some influence on the 2016 9 election? 10 11 12 13 A I know there's been lots of things in the media about it. Again, it's not an area where I've been ever asked to focus on or -Q Did you ever know whether or not the President had a genuine belief that certain Ukrainians were advocating against him? 14 A I don't know that. 15 Q Okay. You indicated that, turning your attention back to 16 Ambassador Yovanovitch, that she emailed you on March 24th. 17 in the email, if I'm not mistaken, she asserted that she could no longer 18 function in her role? 19 A I think, She said that -- I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the 20 email in front of me, but the basic thrust of it was that things had 21 reached a point where, unless there was a strong State Department 22 support, public support of her, that it was becoming increasingly 23 untenable for her to continue to function. 24 25 Q Okay. And you had requested that she put together an email or cable to you? UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 139 1 A Yeah. 2 Q And I think you said that when you received that information, 3 it wasn't what you were expecting or what you had asked for? A 4 Well, I, of course, didn't really know what she had to say, 5 and we didn't want to talk on an open line about it, so I said, "Why 6 don't you send me information on what's happening to you by classified 7 email in the morning, and I -- you know, the next morning, and I'll 8 deal with it," because I was very confused by all this stuff. 9 And what I got was not so much data about what was happening but 10 informed speculation about the possible motivations, what they may or 11 may not be, of people behind the -- these allegations and the -- that's 12 what I received. Q 13 Okay. And I forget if you had mentioned to us here today 14 whether you circled back with her to get additional information or maybe 15 something more along the lines of what you were expecting or looking 16 for? 17 A No. It was clear that was what she had. 18 Q Okay. 19 A And so it's on that basis I briefed -- and this is also -- you 20 know, she -- given the time change, she had sent it earlier in the day 21 on Monday. 22 on a Sunday. 23 This is now Monday. Her -- my conversation with her was Overnight, I get this email. My meeting with the Secretary is 24 at 7:15, so I don't have a great amount of time to have a back-and-forth, 25 so I took it to the Secretary, said: This is what Ambassador UNCLASSIFIED 140 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Yovanovitch is saying, and she believes a statement is needed. 2 Q Okay. Turning your attention to Ambassador McKinley's 3 resignation. 4 A It did. 5 Q He had no involvement in the discussion of Ambassador Did that catch you by surprise? 6 Yovanovitch from the time period that she was brought home until the 7 July 25th call transcript is made public, correct? 8 A Yeah. I don't remember him being -- being involved in that. 9 Q And then there were -- the transcript was made public. 10 George Kent, I believe, had gotten to Ambassador McKinley about his 11 concerns. 12 requested a statement of support for Yovanovitch? 13 accurately -- Does that There were -- partially. There were two separate events, 15 if I can use that word, for emails. One was that, on September 28th, 16 Mike McKinley sent an email to several of our colleagues, including 17 myself, proposing a very strong statement supporting Ambassador 18 Yovanovitch. 19 transcript of the phone call and the -- what came out in public. 14 20 A And then Ambassador McKinley, on the heels of that, I believe he was reacting to the release of the And then -- and then, separately, and I think it may have been 21 the next week -- no, it was at the end of that week. 22 George Kent wrote the memo -- and Mike circulated it -- and said that 23 he was very concerned about this treatment of one of our officers by 24 the lawyer. 25 Q Okay. On October 3rd, And McKinley, he was in a little bit of an ombudsman UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 141 1 type of role, is that a fair characterization, for the Foreign Service 2 Corps? 3 A Well, people look -- there were only two foreign service 4 officers in what we call the seventh floor in these jobs, and that was 5 Mike and myself. 6 7 Q But the Secretary relied on him to provide feedback from the corps, right? 8 A Sure. Yes. 9 Q And so it seems that the actions that he took with regard 10 to this matter, you know, there were two, that -- two email instances, 11 and then he resigned. 12 Was there anything else that occurred or conversations that 13 happened that you subsequently learned as to what was -- that seems 14 abrupt, does it not? 15 16 17 A Yes. was resigning. It was abrupt to me. I had no inkling of it. And he came to tell me that one morning during that week, I don't 18 remember which day it was. 19 the week. 20 21 I was quite surprised that he Q I think it was toward the latter half of That's what I know. I mean, he's served the State Department for upwards of close to 40 years, right, in a number of challenging posts. 22 A Yes. 23 Q He's dealt with diplomatic challenges for his entire career. 24 A Yes. 25 Q And, you know, he's faced with what could be an internal set He's a very distinguished Foreign Service officer. UNCLASSIFIED 142 UNCLASSIFIED 1 of diplomatic challenges here. 2 know, the Secretary invited him into the inner circle. 3 Secretary has related publicly that his office was next door and he 4 could freely come and go. 5 6 And he had the platform. He was -- you I think the Just trying to understand a little bit more why he, you know, sent the two emails and then left. 7 A That's a very good question. I don't know the answer. 8 Q Okay. 9 A Well, as I said, he previewed the fact that he had some -- he So you never had any talks with him about -- 10 didn't preview. 11 in fact, had submitted his resignation, which surprised me. 12 when he was ready to go, he came down to my office to say goodbye. 13 Q He told me in the course of a conversation that he, And then, When he told you he submitted his resignation, did you ask 14 him why, or has it really gotten to that point, should we talk about 15 this a little bit more, should we get Counselor Brechbuhl involved? 16 A He made clear that the decision was not something he really 17 wanted to talk about. 18 further. 19 clear why he was resigning, to be perfectly honest with you. 20 just very unhappy about things. 21 Q He was unhappy, clearly. I can only speculate He said it was -- at the time, he didn't really make very Okay. He was Now, is this consistent -- is this, like, State 22 Department culture where, you know, you just write a couple emails, 23 and then, if your concerns aren't allayed, you just go away, or -- 24 25 A Well, I don't have the impression that he resigned as a result of these emails -UNCLASSIFIED 143 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Q Okay. 2 A -- per se. 3 In fact, the 10/3, 10/4 email came out long after he told me he had submitted his resignation. 4 Q Okay. 5 A Not long, but, I mean, after that point. 6 I really just don't know really why. I wouldn't say it's normal 7 to -- I don't know what the normal way to resign is, but most people 8 plan it in advance. Q 9 Okay. So, at the time that he submitted his resignation, 10 he had only put forth the email about the statement of support regarding 11 the Ambassador? A 12 13 I guess. I don't know exactly when he submitted his resignation to the Secretary, and I'm not sure he told me that. Q 14 Okay. Did you ever have any communications with Deputy 15 Secretary Sullivan or Ambassador Reeker or other key players in the 16 senior leadership structure about Ambassador McKinley? A 17 About Mike? I had a conversation with the Secretary of State 18 about it, and I mentioned to him that Mike seemed to me to be worked 19 into a very negative state of mind, based on one of the meetings I had 20 and the one in which he said that he had submitted his resignation. 21 And I said that it could be creating a problem -- 22 Q Okay. 23 A -- for the morale of everyone -- you know, all those around Q Okay. 24 25 him. And do you remember what the Secretary said in UNCLASSIFIED 144 UNCLASSIFIED 1 response to that? 2 A He didn't really react to it. 3 Q Okay. Turning back to Ambassador Taylor's statement, he 4 says in his statement about his -- the prospect that he would, in fact, 5 resign as well. 6 Did that catch you by surprise, that things had gotten so bad for 7 Ambassador Taylor during the pendency of the aid freeze that he wanted 8 to resign? 9 10 11 A Yes, I suppose. I mean, again, I only saw it based on the revelations to the media that occurred. I will say that he -- and I mentioned that he had emailed me at 12 the end of August. I was trying to find the notes here in which -- on 13 August 27, he had sent me an email, and he had said that if there was 14 a change of policy, it was subjunctive, that he wanted to remind me 15 that he had told the Secretary of State when they met that he 16 would -- there would be no real reason for him to be there, was the 17 way he put it. 18 And I was -- had a minor reaction to the fact that I was not in 19 the meeting with the Secretary, so I had not actually known that before, 20 but on August 27, that's what he emailed me about. 21 And he focused on three specific things that concerned him about 22 why there might be a shift in policy. He pointed to the President's 23 public comments about the possibility of inviting Russia back into the 24 G7-G8 process. 25 suspension or freeze of the military assistance. He talked about the fact that there had been the UNCLASSIFIED And he cited the fact 145 UNCLASSIFIED 1 that the President's meeting with President Zelensky had not yet 2 occurred. 3 Q And did you think it was a drastic move for Ambassador Taylor 4 to want to resign over those issues without having an opportunity to 5 work with the senior leadership in the Department to get a resolution 6 to some of his concerns? 7 A I didn't react so much to this message from him, because I 8 felt these things were going to be resolved. 9 thought, as I said, the State Department was not working on any plan 10 that involved Russia coming into the G7, so I didn't -- that didn't 11 strike me as an immediate thing that would prompt anyone to do anything. 12 And we were still working on a Zelensky-President meeting. 13 the reason it had not occurred, as far as I knew, was based on what 14 the White House had said, which was the hurricane that hit the Carolinas 15 compelled the President to stay home and send the Vice President 16 instead. 17 18 19 I mean, I didn't take -- I And And the third issue on security assistance was a serious issue, but we were working on it. Q Right. Okay. Did George Kent ever bring to your attention 20 the concerns that Ambassador Taylor had were so serious that he was 21 contemplating resigning? 22 A Not that I remember. 23 Q How about Reeker? 24 A Not that I remember. 25 Q Okay. Did he? So the prospect of him resigning is something that UNCLASSIFIED 146 UNCLASSIFIED 1 you just found out about once the statement was put forward? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q Okay. 4 A Other than this phrase, that "there would be no reason for 5 6 7 8 9 10 me to be here," which is a little bit ambiguous. Q Okay. But you never zeroed in on that as a problem that you had to go to work on? A I didn't sense there was some imminent thing that was going to prompt him to present his resignation. Q Did you instruct any of your deputies, the folks that work 11 for you, whether it be Kent or Reeker, to go work on Taylor and find 12 out what his concerns are and see if there's anything that needs to 13 be done to keep him? 14 A No. I mean, he -- I didn't sense that there was an imminent 15 problem, to be honest with you. 16 others on the email. He emailed me. He may have copied I don't know. 17 As I said, two of these three -- one of the issues struck me as 18 something that was not -- you know, something we were working on, so 19 I didn't understand why he was concerned about it, and the other two, 20 there were strategies to try to make them happen. 21 22 23 So I was focused on dealing with the substantive problems, less on his frame of mind. Q Okay. So, if he was actually going to resign and there was 24 an imminent threat, that would be something that you would get more 25 involved with? UNCLASSIFIED 147 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A Probably. 2 Q Okay. 3 MR. MEADOWS: 4 MR. CASTOR: Mr. Meadows. 5 MR. MEADOWS: So, Ambassador, indeed, the U.S. Ukraine policy has 6 Can I follow up? not changed? 7 AMBASSADOR HALE: 8 MR. MEADOWS: 9 10 11 12 That's correct. And our policy towards Ukraine in terms of aid to Ukraine has actually become more robust over time. AMBASSADOR HALE: Is that correct? I don't know that I've watched it long enough to say it's been more robust, but it's certainly very robust. MR. MEADOWS: Okay. So, if Ambassador Taylor was alleging that 13 he wanted to resign and suggesting that he would resign if 14 Ukrainian -- U.S.-Ukrainian policy shifted, and it was with those three 15 points, I think it's -- would it be correct to assume that, one, the 16 policy hasn't changed, and, two, the issues that he raised there were 17 really not issues that would warrant his resignation? 18 AMBASSADOR HALE: That's correct. BY MR. CASTOR: 19 20 Is that correct? Q You identified a couple emails that -- from George Kent that 21 had made their way to you, either through Ambassador McKinley or through 22 Ambassador Reeker. 23 A How many -- were there just two from George Kent? Well, there was just -- the one from Ambassador McKinley is 24 just the one email in his record on this unfortunate exchange with the 25 lawyer from the legal department. UNCLASSIFIED 148 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Q Okay. 2 A In the late March timeframe, there are a large number of 3 emails related to the press guidance and the allegations about the 4 Ambassador. 5 mess of -- mass of information coming to me at that time on something 6 I, frankly, had a hard time fully comprehending, again, which is why 7 I reached out to Ambassador Yovanovitch when she did email me, to try 8 and get a senior office officer on the ground's explanation to me, best 9 explanation as to what was happening. 10 Q Some of them were being forwarded to me. It was a real When George Kent was before us, he recounted a number of 11 instances where he prepared memos to file over various things that he 12 said concerned him. 13 14 15 Did any of those memos to file, or whether they took the form of email, make their way to you? A I really don't remember that. I remember the memo for the 16 file on the issue of the meeting with the lawyer. And during the period 17 of late March, there were a number of emails that he did express some 18 views on -- speculated on what was happening, I think I've already 19 discussed that, in terms of these two journalists. 20 email well. 21 That's what I remember. I remember that And he had some ideas on how to counter the allegations. 22 Q And have you known George Kent? 23 A No. 24 Q Okay. 25 MR. MEADOWS: I didn't know him until I assumed this position. Ambassador, did I mishear? UNCLASSIFIED I think maybe in the 149 UNCLASSIFIED 1 first hour earlier today when we were talking about that particular 2 timeframe, and that timeframe being, I guess, that May timeframe where 3 all of this was going on, and there was a concern and wanting a statement 4 that was put out, did I hear you correctly that there were some Ukrainian 5 initiatives that the Embassy put forth in terms of confidence in the 6 ambassador in Ukraine? 7 AMBASSADOR HALE: 8 MR. MEADOWS: 9 AMBASSADOR HALE: Was it -- did you say that earlier? This would have been in late March -- Late March. 10 MR. MEADOWS: 11 AMBASSADOR HALE: I apologize. -- when this thing was cresting. Yeah. And we did put out a statement that used the 12 word "outright fabrication" to make clear that we had no -- there was 13 nothing behind this story that we had put a "do not prosecute" list 14 in front of the Ukrainian judicial authorities. MR. MEADOWS: 15 And that seemed, I think -- according to your 16 testimony earlier today, that kind of softened everything, at least 17 in the Ukraine. Is that correct? AMBASSADOR HALE: 18 In the Ukraine. Ambassador Yovanovitch said 19 that that statement had put them on stable ground inside Ukraine. 20 problem was what was happening in the media in the United States. MR. MEADOWS: 21 The But I guess what was happening here in the United 22 States and the impact on Ukraine largely are disconnected, are they 23 not? 24 know Ukrainians are up watching Fox News. 25 I mean, they may be important to us as Americans, but I don't AMBASSADOR HALE: Well, the interpretation I put on it at the UNCLASSIFIED 150 UNCLASSIFIED 1 time, which may or may not have been correct, was that she said that 2 the statement helped deal with her issues in Ukraine -- 3 MR. MEADOWS: 4 AMBASSADOR HALE: 5 Right. here also seeped into Ukraine. 6 MR. MEADOWS: 7 AMBASSADOR HALE: 8 9 10 11 12 -- but the social media and other stories back Okay. I mean, it was not as if there was a hermetic seal here. MR. MEADOWS: Okay. AMBASSADOR HALE: And that needed to be addressed, and she couldn't do it herself, you see. MR. MEADOWS: It was all back here. So what tangible thing was being impacted in 13 Ukraine in terms of her ability to be a diplomat? 14 other than reputation, I mean, was there something she was trying to 15 negotiate that she couldn't negotiate? 16 AMBASSADOR HALE: 17 MR. MEADOWS: Did she -- I mean, She didn't elaborate. So you're not aware of anything in terms of a 18 concrete problem other than a perceived problem that was being 19 identified? 20 AMBASSADOR HALE: 21 MR. MEADOWS: A reputational problem. So this was more about Ambassador Yovanovitch's 22 reputation than it was actually a deployment of diplomatic duties. 23 that correct? 24 25 AMBASSADOR HALE: Is Yes, so it may be hard to distinguish than -- and as a practical matter when you're in the field. UNCLASSIFIED I mean, 151 UNCLASSIFIED 1 an ambassador has a great deal of authority. 2 be able to -- everyone knows is speaking for the authority of the 3 President and has the confidence of the President. 4 of confidence is so damaging to an ambassador, and there's no point 5 in trying to resist that. 6 That's why a loss So the reputation does matter, I guess is what I'm trying to say, 7 to your functionality. 8 MR. MEADOWS: 9 An ambassador needs to So, based on all of this that was going back and forth and the decision to extend -- and I understand that, earlier, 10 you were talking about there was no one to replace her. 11 correct? 12 AMBASSADOR HALE: 13 MR. MEADOWS: 14 15 Is that There was no one lined up and confirmed. And so the decision to extend her stay was more one of just logistics until she could be replaced? AMBASSADOR HALE: Yeah. Is that correct? I thought she was doing a good job, an 16 excellent job. 17 given all of the complexities of Ukraine and all of the uncertainties. 18 At that time, Presidential elections had not even occurred. 19 a cautious person. 20 as we can be to deal with anything unexpected or even expected, so I 21 suggested the idea to her. 22 And we had a gap, which was not desirable, particularly So I'm I want to try to make sure that we're as staffed I had not cleared it with anybody. And I hesitate to even call it a decision because I don't recollect 23 that it ever really -- 24 MR. MEADOWS: 25 AMBASSADOR HALE: It was a recommendation? Yeah. It was just an idea that -- UNCLASSIFIED 152 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 MR. MEADOWS: Yeah. since you're coming back, we" -- 3 AMBASSADOR HALE: 4 MR. MEADOWS: 5 to do that?" Yeah. -- "we may ask you to stay on. Would you be willing Is that -- 6 AMBASSADOR HALE: 7 MR. MEADOWS: 8 AMBASSADOR HALE: 9 "I've got this idea that we may -- you know, That's correct. -- how you would characterize it? That's right. And I have to be cognizant that, when I say things like that and because of my position, they can take 10 on a certain momentum. 11 MR. MEADOWS: 12 AMBASSADOR HALE: And I want -- Because you're on the seventh floor? Yeah. And I wanted that. I mean, I thought 13 that was a good idea. 14 I turned it over to our European bureau to work with the personnel 15 section to see if it would fly, and I expected it to come back up the 16 system. 17 18 MR. MEADOWS: Yeah. AMBASSADOR HALE: 20 elections in October. MR. MEADOWS: No. I talked about through the parliamentary Okay. BY MR. CASTOR: 22 23 But you don't believe today that she was under the impression that she might be there for another year? 19 21 So I said -- when she came back and said, "Yes," Q Was there a time when you were getting these emails from 24 George Kent in the March-April timeframe that you related to Reeker, 25 who advised Kent, to keep his head down? UNCLASSIFIED 153 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 A Begin the question again. I'm sorry. I missed the beginning. 3 Q 4 was -- 5 A Right. 6 Q -- sending up. 7 A Yeah. 8 Q I think you said massive amount? 9 A No, not from George. 10 Q Oh, massive information. 11 A A mass, a large body of information coming to me. 12 Q Okay. 13 14 We've been discussing the various emails that George Kent Was that -- I said there was a mass of information. Okay. Was there ever a time when you told Reeker to have Kent keep his head down? A Yes. I was concerned that -- George himself was the target 15 of some of these allegations, and we were already dealing with all these 16 problems for our Ambassador. 17 encounter this kind of turbulence. 18 talk to George about keeping his head down. 19 20 21 Q Okay. I did not want another officer to So I did suggest to Phil that he And what would that entail? Just not having as many meetings with Ukrainians or -A Yeah. That would -- might be one of them. This is just a 22 time, I think, to be careful, to have everything considered carefully 23 and not solo, that there be, you know, up the chain, there be an 24 evaluation of what would be smart and what -- make sure nothing would 25 be misinterpreted. That was my intent. UNCLASSIFIED 154 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Q So was it encouraging Kent to -- if there were decisions that 2 would ordinarily be made at the DAS level, to perhaps raise them to 3 the Assistant Secretary level? 4 5 A I wasn't very specific. I just wanted them to know that this was a time to be extra cautious and careful. 6 Q Okay. 7 A There were a lot of allegations flying around, and I did not 8 want another officer to suffer what our ambassador was suffering. 9 Q Okay. 10 A He traveled a fair amount, but he was assigned in D.C., yes. 11 Q Okay. 12 13 And at the time, Kent was in D.C., right? And do you remember what the allegations were regarding him? A Well, again, these details are hard to grasp, but he was DCM 14 the previous year, so I think that the allegations related to -- went 15 back to the "do not prosecute" list and that he'd somehow played a role 16 in that. 17 Q 18 We talked about one meeting that you had with Fiona Hill. 19 other meetings that you had or communications with the NSC regarding 20 the facts here? 21 A Okay. Fair enough. I had two meetings with Fiona Hill. Any I'll just have to take 22 a moment to cover my notes. There was the one that we discussed on 23 May 10, and then I met her again -- well, actually, the May 10, 24 I -- according to my notes, and this is a reconstruction of research 25 based on documents, I received a briefing note for a meeting I was UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 155 1 scheduled to have with Fiona Hill on May 10, but in fact what happened 2 was a secure call with Fiona Hill. 3 4 5 I really don't remember what the content of the call was. Again, I was focused more on Russia. And then, as was discussed in the earlier session, on May 16, I 6 met with Fiona Hill, and on the agenda was the Presidential 7 delegation -- it wasn't a formal agenda, but the note from my staff 8 said this is a good question to ask about the status of the Presidential 9 delegation. 10 11 12 And then we had -- I believe we had a discussion on Russia that I've already outlined. Q Okay. Any other meetings with NSC officials relating to these events? 13 A No. 14 Q Right. 15 Not until the July 25 visit meeting of the small group. How about discussions with Tim Morrison, her successor? 16 A July 26 meeting. 17 I didn't meet Tim Morrison until Mr. Kupperman invited me to lunch 18 with himself at the NSC sometime in September, because he and I had 19 not had a chance to have a discussion. 20 to be a one-on-one lunch, but Tim Morrison and John Erath, another 21 officer in the European Affairs part of the NSC, attended that lunch. I, frankly, thought it was going 22 Q Okay. 23 A We talked about -- the reason for the meeting, a "get to know 24 you" partly, but also I was going to Belarus, and they wanted to just 25 discuss that and make sure that we were coordinated. UNCLASSIFIED 156 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 Q Okay. At that lunch, did they raise any concerns about the Ukraine matters? 3 A No. 4 Q Was it even brought up? 5 A I have no recollection of the topic of Ukraine coming up. 6 It could have, but I don't believe it did. 7 things that are the focus of this committee. 8 9 10 11 We discussed my trip. discussed that. Certainly none of these I had taken a trip to Moldova. We Next to Ukraine, I don't know, there may have been a discussion. There was actually -- I will -- my memory's just -- on the issue 12 of Belarus, they informed me that Ambassador Bolton had a strong 13 interest in trying to promote three-way energy cooperation between 14 Ukraine, Poland, and Belarus. 15 but I was not aware that Ambassador Bolton had a strong desire to see 16 us promote that, and I did raise it, as the NSC had hoped I would, in 17 Belarus. 18 Q Okay. 19 A No. I was not -- I was aware of that issue, Any meetings with Ambassador Bolton? Ambassador Bolton and I rarely would -- you know, he's 20 above me in the rank order, so we didn't have very many exchanges. 21 I don't remember anything that summer on this topic. And 22 Q Any other discussions with Dr. Kupperman? 23 A No. 24 Q Do you think all the focus that this investigation has 25 brought on the U.S.-Ukraine relationship is a good thing or a bad thing? UNCLASSIFIED 157 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A Well, I believe that our policy toward Ukraine is sound. And 2 I believe that we are continuing to pursue that policy. 3 that the bases of our relationship, bilateral relationship continue 4 to be strong. 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q And I believe The intense focus that this investigation has brought to the Ukrainian relationship, does that present some challenges? A I think it's too early to say, frankly, what impact it is having. Q Are you surprised, in the wake of the July 25th call, that this has all ensued? 11 A Was I surprised? 12 Q Yes. 13 A I'm sorry. 14 Q In the wake of the July 25th call transcript -- 15 A Yes. 16 Q -- and what happened on the call, are you surprised that all 17 18 Can you repeat the whole question? of this has ensued? A Well, it's -- yes. I mean, during that period, it wasn't 19 just the phone call, but then the information that was revealed about 20 the conduct, what people were pursuing, were allegedly pursuing with 21 Ukrainian officials, it did surprise me. 22 was happening. 23 MR. CASTOR: 24 MR. PERRY: 25 I didn't know any of that Mr. Perry. Mr. Ambassador, Scott Perry from Pennsylvania. First of all, thanks for your longstanding service and sacrifices on UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 behalf of our country. 158 Being away from home a lot is hard on anybody. I want to go back to something we talked about in the last round. 3 You're generally aware that the President has some -- I'm going to 4 describe it as an aversion, but I don't want to put words in your 5 mouth -- to foreign aid, or at least he has concerns about foreign aid, 6 the amounts of foreign aid. 7 could agree with? 8 AMBASSADOR HALE: 9 MR. PERRY: 10 I mean, is that a general statement you Yes. And in light of that, you're aware that the last three White House budgets made significant changes to foreign aid amounts? 11 AMBASSADOR HALE: 12 MR. PERRY: 13 Are you also aware that the President's looking to unveil an 14 15 16 17 Right? [Nonverbal response.] So that kind of proves that -- that out? overhaul of how we should distribute foreign aid. AMBASSADOR HALE: Yes. The Foreign Assistance Review is pending, and I have been involved somewhat in that. MR. PERRY: Are you familiar with the U.N. General Assembly quote 18 where the President said, "Moving forward, we are only going to give 19 foreign aid to those who respect us and, frankly, are our friends," 20 unquote? Have you heard that before? 21 AMBASSADOR HALE: 22 MR. PERRY: Yes. I attended that speech. And are you familiar that there's a general theme 23 about the importance of countries eventually graduating off of U.S. 24 foreign assistance completely that would be envisioned in the 25 President's new strategy or policy, foreign policy? UNCLASSIFIED 159 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 AMBASSADOR HALE: Yes. That's been discussed in our agency as part of that. MR. PERRY: Okay. And an OMB, Office of Management and Budget, 4 spokesperson described themselves as having an obligation to ensure 5 American taxpayer money is being used widely. 6 I mean, would you dispute that description of one of their roles? 7 AMBASSADOR HALE: I would not dispute it. 8 MR. PERRY: You referred to the fact that the OMB asked 9 10 11 12 13 Yes. agencies for a balance sheet of foreign aid projects early on in the last round. If I can -- AMBASSADOR HALE: surprise me. I don't know that myself. That doesn't That would be a normal give and take, given the review. MR. PERRY: If that were, maybe this helps, I don't know, are you 14 aware that the request included eight areas that cover a variety of 15 assistance: 16 and activities; international narcotics control and law enforcement; 17 development and aid; assistance for Europe, Asia and Central Asia; 18 economic support funding; foreign military financing programs; and 19 global health programs? 20 21 22 international organizations; peacekeeping operations Are you familiar with any of that, or does any of that sound like it would be out of the realm of what the review would include? AMBASSADOR HALE: The review, yes, that -- those are among the 23 topics, the headlines of how we sort of organize the aid in order to 24 understand it. 25 MR. PERRY: Okay. UNCLASSIFIED 160 UNCLASSIFIED 1 AMBASSADOR HALE: 2 MR. PERRY: Yes, sir. Are you aware that, last year, the OMB asked the State 3 Department and USAID to provide similar balance sheets of unobligated 4 projects just 6 weeks before the end of the budget year? 5 AMBASSADOR HALE: I'm not the budget guy. I don't get involved 6 in this level of detail, but, again, that sounds normal; particularly 7 as you reach the end of the fiscal year, then you want to deal with 8 your unobligated -- 9 MR. PERRY: Six weeks, if you're looking at 6 weeks prior to the 10 end of the fiscal year, that's kind of almost in line with what occurred 11 this year, but that happened actually in 2018, you know, the review 12 that I brought up there. 13 Are you familiar that, on August 3rd, the budget office sent a 14 letter to the State Department and the AID agency ordering them to 15 freeze spending on all funds in the 10 broad foreign aid accounts that 16 I previously mentioned? 17 this year -- you're familiar with that? 18 AMBASSADOR HALE: That was August 3rd. So that's the -- of I remember hearing something about it, yes. UNCLASSIFIED 161 UNCLASSIFIED 1 [2:00 p.m.] MR. PERRY: 2 So that kind of falls in line with that. And are you 3 familiar with -- you might not be familiar with this, but I will just 4 ask if you are familiar with a New York Times article that reported 5 that the President who often talks about cutting spending ultimately 6 decided the fight over $4 billion was not worth it because of the 7 pressure campaign from Mr. Pompeo and a barrage of calls from his allies 8 on Capitol Hill. Maybe you are not familiar with the article or the statement, but 9 10 does that sound plausible? 11 AMBASSADOR HALE: Well, I know that I don't have any information 12 on conversations between the Secretary of State and the President on 13 this topic, to be honest with you. MR. PERRY: 14 Okay. Fair enough. Let me ask you this: Do you 15 know of any other Federal agency known to have received a similar letter 16 from OMB directing it to freeze spending while the accounting was made? AMBASSADOR HALE: 17 18 I don't know, and I don't think it's unusual for me not to know about other agencies, so -- 19 MR. PERRY: 20 AMBASSADOR HALE: 21 THE CHAIRMAN: 22 more left. 23 that. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Ambassador, I think we have about 20 or 30 minutes I don't know if the minority contemplates much more after 24 MR. CASTOR: 25 THE CHAIRMAN: No. Do you want to just power through it, or do you UNCLASSIFIED 162 UNCLASSIFIED 1 want to break? 2 AMBASSADOR HALE: 3 THE CHAIRMAN: 4 I'm here to go. Okay. Why don't we continue then. Let me just pick up where my colleague in the minority left off. 5 In terms of the chronology, are you aware, Ambassador, that prior 6 to lifting the hold on the military assistance for Ukraine, the White 7 House was informed of the existence of the whistleblower complaint and 8 that Congress was doing an investigation into these issues? 9 10 AMBASSADOR HALE: THE CHAIRMAN: I didn't know that. Had the -- I think you testified that, although 11 it was conveyed by the representative of OMB that the President ordered 12 this aid suspended, no reason was given for the suspension, correct? 13 AMBASSADOR HALE: 14 THE CHAIRMAN: 15 16 That is correct. And had that suspension persisted, that would have been a fundamental change in Ukraine policy, would it not? AMBASSADOR HALE: Yes, it was contrary to our policy to not be 17 able to continue to support the Ukrainian military as they dealt with 18 Russia. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: And, in fact, because the President delayed the 20 Ukraine aid as long as he did, it was necessary for an act of Congress 21 to step in so that Ukraine could get the assistance that the clock would 22 have otherwise prohibited. 23 AMBASSADOR HALE: Isn't that right? I'm not expert on the ins and outs of 24 legislation. All my focus was on trying to break through this freeze. 25 And I attended this deputies meeting. I informed the Secretary of UNCLASSIFIED 163 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 State, and then we waited, and we waited. THE CHAIRMAN: But are you familiar with the fact that Congress 3 actually had to pass a law to effectuate this aid because it was withheld 4 as long as it was? 5 6 7 AMBASSADOR HALE: I'm sorry, sir, to interrupt. I think I saw something in the news about that. THE CHAIRMAN: And that even though -- after Congress took that 8 act, there was still in excess, I believe, of $10 million that could 9 not be allocated to Ukraine for its defense because the aid was withheld 10 as long as it was by the President? 11 AMBASSADOR HALE: 12 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm not familiar with that level of detail. You mentioned that Ambassador McKinley didn't 13 discuss with you at any length the reasons for his resignation. 14 that right? 15 AMBASSADOR HALE: 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Is Yes. Would it surprise you that Ambassador McKinley was 17 concerned about the lack of support from Ambassador Yovanovitch and 18 what that might do to morale in the Department? 19 AMBASSADOR HALE: Oh, he was very concerned about that, and that 20 had been the subject of the email, of course, that he sent to me on 21 the 28th of May -- of September. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: And if he raised this concern repeatedly with 23 either Mr. Brechbuhl or with the Secretary himself, he would not have 24 necessarily included you in those conversations, right? 25 AMBASSADOR HALE: No, I was not included. UNCLASSIFIED 164 UNCLASSIFIED 1 THE CHAIRMAN: And if he found that the relief that he was seeking 2 was unavailing from the Secretary, he wouldn't necessarily have shared 3 that with you, would he? 4 AMBASSADOR HALE: No, I mean, in the conversation he had, in which 5 he finally told me he was resigning -- it came at the end of the 6 conversation -- it was clear he was very concerned about the fact that 7 the State Department had not issued a statement of support for 8 Ambassador Yovanovitch. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: 10 11 12 13 You made a comment a few minutes ago about what our ambassador was suffering, I think were your words. Tell me a little bit about your appreciation for what Ambassador Yovanovitch went through. AMBASSADOR HALE: Well, she was dealing with a series of 14 allegations to which we basically said: Unless we at the State 15 Department -- unless there is evidence to back this up, we don't credit 16 these allegations. 17 But the allegations continued to be made, creating an extremely 18 difficult situation, and any of us can put ourselves in that position 19 to know how difficult that would be. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: On that point, Ambassador, did it occur to you that 21 this might have happened to you as an ambassador, there would be a smear 22 campaign against you somewhere when you were serving at a post overseas 23 and the State Department wouldn't provide support? 24 Did it occur to you that that could have happened to you? 25 AMBASSADOR HALE: Well, I was advocating for a strong statement UNCLASSIFIED 165 UNCLASSIFIED 1 of support. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: So you could relate to the Ambassador's position? 3 AMBASSADOR HALE: 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Of course, yes. And did it occur to you as well that ambassadors 5 around the world who saw how Ambassador Yovanovitch was treated and 6 the lack of support she got ultimately from the seventh floor might 7 suffer morale problems wondering whether they might be similarly 8 treated or thrown under the bus. 9 Did that concern you? 10 AMBASSADOR HALE: I was focused really on trying to get a 11 statement of support for Ambassador Yovanovitch so she could stay there 12 and continue to do the good work that she was doing. 13 aware that, in the absence of such a statement, that people might draw 14 various conclusions. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm certainly Well, Ambassador McKinley was concerned about 16 what that might do for the morale of the Department. 17 concern you as well? 18 AMBASSADOR HALE: 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Didn't that Yes, of course. And, indeed, in terms of the other personnel at 20 the mission in the Embassy in Ukraine, did it concern you what it would 21 do to the morale of people in the diplomatic corps in Ukraine, our 22 employees seeing how she was treated? 23 AMBASSADOR HALE: I had many concerns, which is why I was 24 advocating for a strong statement of support for her. 25 sure that she could continue to be as an effective ambassador as she UNCLASSIFIED I wanted to be 166 UNCLASSIFIED 1 could be. 2 on the moral of our people wherever they may be. 3 I was also concerned about the effect that it would have THE CHAIRMAN: One of the other concerns that Ambassador McKinley 4 had was over what you would come to later learn about, that is, efforts 5 to get the State Department involved in domestic American politics. 6 Did that concern you as well? 7 AMBASSADOR HALE: We all know, those of us who have served long 8 enough in the State Department, to know that there is a separation 9 between domestic political activities and the conduct of our foreign 10 policy. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: At least there should be, right? 12 AMBASSADOR HALE: 13 THE CHAIRMAN: That there should be. And if these were the two bases on which 14 Mr. McKinley decided that he could no longer serve in the State 15 Department, that wouldn't surprise you, would it? 16 AMBASSADOR HALE: I don't -- again, I don't know specifically why 17 he resigned. 18 I don't want to speculate. 19 I know that he was very upset about what was happening. THE CHAIRMAN: Ambassador Taylor sent a cable, I think, at the 20 suggestion of Mr. Bolton, to the Secretary of State in the first person. 21 That's unusual, isn't it, to send a first-person cable? 22 AMBASSADOR HALE: It does happen. It's something ambassadors, 23 good ambassadors, would think carefully about doing. 24 to overuse that channel. 25 is a sign that an ambassador wants to make sure -- there's an issue But I've done it. UNCLASSIFIED You don't want I know it happens. It 167 UNCLASSIFIED 1 that is concerning him in some way that he wants to make sure it gets 2 attention. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, that cable is one of the many documents that 4 the State Department has refused to provide to the committee. 5 can you tell us about that cable in an unclassified setting? 6 AMBASSADOR HALE: Yes. What Although I, again, reread it to 7 familiarize myself with it to prepare for today, and it struck me as 8 an extremely professional and well-argued case for continuing our 9 security assistance for Ukraine, laying out all of the pros and all 10 of the cons if we were not to do that. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: And what else did it cover in the cable? 12 AMBASSADOR HALE: 13 THE CHAIRMAN: 14 expressed in the cable? That was the subject of the cable. Were the concerns about why it was being withheld 15 AMBASSADOR HALE: 16 THE CHAIRMAN: No, not that I recall. And there were reports that the Secretary of State 17 carried that cable with him into the White House. 18 about that? 19 AMBASSADOR HALE: 20 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't. Nick. BY MR. MITCHELL: 21 22 Do you know anything Q You were asked some questions earlier from my colleagues in 23 the minority about a meeting between Secretary Pompeo and President 24 Trump at the beginning of September. 25 A Do you recall that? They meet -- I don't recall a specific meeting. UNCLASSIFIED They UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 168 meet -- they have regular meetings all the time. Q Do you know whether Secretary Pompeo met with President Trump about this cable? 4 A I don't. 5 Q Do you know whether they met at the beginning of September 6 7 regarding security assistance? A I don't. But, again, I would go back to the note that I sent 8 to the Secretary's staff for the Secretary after the small deputies 9 meeting with my advice, or at least my assessment -- I should put it 10 that way -- that because we were unable to resolve it at the deputies 11 level, that this would have to be elevated to the principals level, 12 meaning the Cabinet Secretaries level, and because of OMB's position 13 as described, being directed by the President, that it was unlikely 14 to be resolved at the principals level, and therefore, ultimately, 15 those immediately involved -- probably including Secretary 16 Pompeo -- would have to take this to the President. 17 That was my assessment if we were going to get this resolved. 18 if the thrust of your questioning is, did the Secretary go back to the 19 President on this, I don't know that for a fact, but it does not surprise 20 me that he did so. 21 Q So, Are you familiar with a meeting on or about August 16 at 22 Bedminster in which the principals gathered and discussed Ukraine 23 security assistance? 24 25 A up there. Now that you mention, I do remember that there was a meeting I don't remember that Ukraine assistance was on the agenda, UNCLASSIFIED 169 UNCLASSIFIED 1 but, again, I am not surprised. Q 2 3 It was a pending issue for discussion. But you didn't talk to anybody who attended that meeting about what was discussed? 4 A I don't remember getting a readout on it. 5 Q Do you recall preparing Secretary Pompeo for the Bedminster 6 meeting? 7 A No. 8 Q Did you see any materials that were provided to Secretary 9 Pompeo in advance of that meeting for his preparation? A I may have. I can't remember it. 12 Q Mid-August. On or about August 16? 13 A I just -- August 16, okay. 10 11 14 15 Can you remind me of the date? I just wanted to mention I had some foreign travel in that time period. Q I was in the U.S. on the 16th. Switching gears a little bit, when was the first time that 16 you became aware that Ambassador Volker was in communication with Rudy 17 Giuliani in or about the middle of July of last year -- of this year? 18 A I found out about it when all of this emerged from the 19 whistleblower and the subsequent stuff that went into the media out 20 of the investigation and whatnot. 21 22 Q Okay. And when did you first learn that Ambassador Volker had introduced Rudy Giuliani to Mr. Yermak? 23 A Again, when this all came out in the media. 24 Q Are you aware of an August 22, 2019, State Department 25 spokesperson statement regarding Mr. Giuliani and his communications UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 1 with Ambassador Volker and introduction to Mr. Yermak? 2 A 3 MR. MITCHELL: 4 170 No, I'm not familiar with that. I'm going to hand you what we will mark as exhibit 2. 5 [Majority Exhibit No. 2 6 was marked for identification.] BY MR. MITCHELL: 7 8 Q Let me know when you have had a chance to read that document. 9 A Yeah, I have -- I don't remember seeing it at the time, and 10 I did not -- this was not something I looked at in preparation for today. 11 I will say that I was traveling in Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan from 12 August 18 to 24. 13 account for why I didn't see it, but it's perhaps related to that. 14 Q It's not unusual. It's very hard to get -- I can't But this spokesperson's statement says that Ambassador 15 Volker has confirmed that at Presidential Adviser Andriy Yermak's 16 request, Volker put Yermak in direct contact with Mr. Giuliani. 17 you see that? 18 A Yes, I do see that. 19 Q Okay. 20 Do But you're saying that you did not know that that occurred at the time? 21 A That's right. 22 Q And you also say that you did not know at the time of the 23 May 23rd debrief meeting with the Presidential delegation that the 24 President directed Ambassador Volker, Ambassador Sondland, and others 25 to talk to Rudy about these Ukraine matters? UNCLASSIFIED 171 UNCLASSIFIED A 1 I did not know that. The only information I had about that 2 meeting was what my staff provided to me. 3 summarized for you earlier today, and it did not include that point. Q 4 It is a readout that I When did you first become aware that Ambassador Volker was 5 in communication with Andriy Yermak immediately before President 6 Trump's July 25th call with President Zelensky? A 7 Well, I've been following the information that's come out 8 into the media about all of this. 9 data point in it. 10 11 12 I wasn't necessarily tracking each So, if it came out in that context, I must have seen it. Q And when you say all of the information that's come out within the media, do you mean within the last couple of weeks? 13 A Yeah. 14 Q And the investigation that's being conducted -- 15 A That's right. 16 Q -- by these committees? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q And when did you first learn that Andriy Yermak met with Rudy 19 20 The stuff since the whistleblower's action. Giuliani at the beginning of August in Madrid? A Again, I didn't know it at the time. This information about 21 these various meetings has come out during the investigation. 22 I've not, you know, I'm not investigating, so I'm not keeping track 23 of each data point about his actions, so -- 24 25 Q Again, Did you know on or about August 9th and 13th that Ambassador Volker, Sondland, and Yermak were discussing a statement by -- or a UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 172 1 potential statement by President Zelensky or perhaps even the 2 prosecutor general about conducting investigations into Ukrainian 3 interference in the 2016 elections as well as Burisma? 4 5 6 A Again, I learned about this as the information became public as a result of this investigation. Q But at the time that Ambassador Volker and Ambassador 7 Sondland were engaging with Mr. Yermak and Rudy Giuliani, it was your 8 understanding that these individuals were taking point on 9 Ukraine-related matters at the direction of the President, correct? 10 A That the members of that -- that composed that delegation 11 had been tasked to lead the effort on the goals the President outlined 12 or endorsed. 13 Q And I think you testified earlier a couple of times that 14 Ambassador Volker you considered to be a professional and you, 15 therefore, trusted his ability to carry out these policies that had 16 been dictated by the President? 17 A Correct. 18 Q Now, you know sitting here today that Ambassador Volker was 19 in contact with Rudy Giuliani, put him in contact with Mr. Yermak, that 20 they were working on this statement to have investigations conducted 21 in the 2016 elections in Burisma and Biden. 22 Do these efforts by Ambassador Volker and Ambassador Sondland 23 reflect any of these three policy goals that you saw at the readout 24 of the May 23rd meeting? 25 A I don't think I have enough direct information to really UNCLASSIFIED 173 UNCLASSIFIED 1 comment on that. 2 have been released. 3 ones that came out yesterday were so extensive. 4 All I've seen is these testimony transcripts that I haven't even been able to read all of them. I'm reluctant to comment on that. The I can restate what our policy 5 goals are, obviously, which is that we want to build -- help Ukraine 6 become a resilient democracy so that it can counter the intimidation 7 and military assault from Russia. 8 of course, means that they are aggressively combatting the corruption 9 that is endemic in their country, and the oligarchic control over the 10 economy, that they are on a strong reform agenda, and that they are 11 able to benefit from U.S. investment, including in their energy sector. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: And part of being a resilient state, If I could develop on that, but you do distinguish, 13 don't you, Ambassador, between all of those laudable U.S. policy goals 14 in Ukraine and trying to get Ukraine to be involved in U.S. domestic 15 politics? You do distinguish between those two, don't you? 16 AMBASSADOR HALE: 17 THE CHAIRMAN: 18 19 20 Yes. While they are conferring, let me just ask another question. In the call record -- which I take it you weren't aware of until it was made public, correct? 21 AMBASSADOR HALE: 22 THE CHAIRMAN: 23 Yovanovitch says, quote: 24 quote. 25 Correct. -- the President, referring to Ambassador She's going to go through some things, end What did you think when you read that for the first time? AMBASSADOR HALE: It concerned me. UNCLASSIFIED I was not aware that there UNCLASSIFIED 174 1 was anything that was happening in consequence of that, again, bearing 2 in mind that there's a passage of time from when that call occurred 3 to when it was made public. 4 And during that period of time, and I realize reflecting back on 5 it, nothing was -- that was not an operational comment that had been 6 operationalized in any way. 7 8 9 10 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, it hadn't been operationalized in terms of anything through the State Department, correct? AMBASSADOR HALE: THE CHAIRMAN: I take it, though, you didn't know what things she was going to go through, according to the President? 12 AMBASSADOR HALE: 13 THE CHAIRMAN: 14 15 Right. No, I could not interpret that. Had the President said that Ambassador Hale is going to go through some things, I take it that would have alarmed you? AMBASSADOR HALE: Of course. BY MR. MITCHELL: 16 17 Q 18 in Brussels? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And when was that? 21 A I was in France, Morocco, and Belgium April 2nd to 22 23 24 25 You testified earlier that you had met Ambassador Sondland April 11th, so it would have been on that trip. Q Do you recall discussing any Ukraine-related matters with Ambassador Sondland on that trip? A No. UNCLASSIFIED 175 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Q What about any time thereafter? 2 A I couldn't make a categorical statement. I would not be able 3 to make a categorical statement that we had never discussed Ukraine. 4 But it -- in my recollection of my discussions with him, nothing out 5 of the ordinary stuck is what I can say. 6 Q All right. So Ambassador Sondland didn't tell you about any 7 of these activities that I was asking questions about earlier with 8 Mr. Yermak or Mr. Volker in the middle of July. 9 10 11 A I have no -- yes, I do not remember, and I do not believe that I heard any of that. Q Or anything that Ambassador Sondland would have done in 12 August regarding this statement about investigations, he also did not 13 keep you apprised of that? 14 15 16 A That's right. I had had no contact with Ambassador Sondland after the meeting in July that I mentioned. Q Okay. Changing gears a little bit to security assistance. 17 You testified earlier about some reviews that were being conducted. 18 Are you aware of any specific reviews regarding the Ukraine security 19 assistance that were being conducted in or about August of this year? 20 A No. 21 Q What about in September? 22 A No. 23 Q So the reviews that you discussed earlier, those were larger 24 25 policy reviews, not reviews specific to any given country? A Right. There had been a process underway from roughly when UNCLASSIFIED 176 UNCLASSIFIED 1 I started this job which would have been August 30, 2018, so early 2 September of 2018, as I mentioned earlier, I was -- I represented the 3 State Department at a large interagency meeting where the NSC briefed 4 us on the concept behind the foreign affairs review. 5 announced that the review was occurring, as was quoted, during the 6 General Assembly speech later in September. And the President 7 As I said earlier, at the State Department, it was decided to 8 assign this task really to our Policy Planning Office with the support 9 of our Foreign Assistance Office, so I stepped back from it -- although, 10 11 obviously, I wanted to follow. But to answer your question, this is about setting forth the 12 principles that in the future we will use to assess the prioritization 13 of our assistance and decisions made to the best management of our 14 money. 15 That has not yet been finalized or unveiled. Meantime, as I 16 mentioned earlier, all of us who work for the State Department anyway, 17 are doing our utmost to abide by the President's intent, which we know 18 is to take a very rigorous look at all of the assistance and to make 19 sure that it is truly in America's and our foreign policy interests. 20 And that -- I mentioned these things earlier, that there is 21 appropriate burden sharing, and that these are not, sort of, forever 22 programs in which States never graduate from them and that such things 23 as using counter -- violent extremism is not used as a rubric to 24 covering a wide range of assistance. 25 focused on -- in a tried and true fashion on the task. It is not really specifically UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 1 177 I don't believe though that it would be correct to leave the 2 impression that the foreign assistance review has been applied on a 3 case-by-case basis to any countries. 4 Q Okay. And you indicated earlier that in the interagency 5 meetings, it was your assessment and the uniform assessment, with the 6 exception of OMB, that the hold should be lifted with regard to Ukraine 7 security assistance. Is that correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q And is that because it was in the national security interest 10 of not just the United States but also of Ukraine that this aid be 11 released? 12 13 14 A From my perspective, it was because it was in the United States' interest. Q Can you explain -- without getting into any classified 15 material -- why the security assistance to Ukraine would be in the U.S. 16 national interest? 17 A It is very important that we be seen to be providing tangible 18 support, not just rhetorical support, for Ukraine as it faced Russian 19 intimidation and aggression, military aggression and intimidation in 20 all kinds of ways, including interference in their elections, in their 21 media, and so forth. 22 States can demonstrate that support for any country in that situation 23 is military assistance. 24 25 Q And one of the most tangible ways the United And this military assistance that we are talking about, again, is two different programs. It's DOD, USAI, as well as State UNCLASSIFIED 178 UNCLASSIFIED 1 FMF? 2 A That's what I understand. 3 Q And back in September of 2018 was when Congress enacted the 4 Department of Defense spending bill that included the $250 million for 5 USAI, correct? A 6 7 detail. 8 were. 9 10 Q I don't doubt that. I didn't, you know, study that kind of I was, again, focused on making clear what the policy goals And is it your understanding that the President would have signed that bill into law after Congress had enacted it? 11 A I'm having trouble following that. 12 Q Sure. 13 So, after Congress enacted the DOD spending bill, that would have been signed into law by the President. 14 A 15 Department. 16 with those kinds of legislative details. 17 do it. 18 get into all of the nuts and bolts, so I just -- I don't know the 19 sequencing, but, yeah, why would that not be true? 20 Q I guess. Correct? Again, I just -- I have been 35 years in the State I don't mean to give you a nonanswer. I don't really deal We have a whole office to I don't -- my experience in my career, I have never had to really Yeah. And are you aware that, in May, the Department of Defense 21 issued a certification saying that Ukraine had met all of the 22 requirements necessary in order to receive USAI funding? 23 A Again, it doesn't surprise me. That's part of the process. 24 I had also signed a report to Congress about their -- Ukraine's record 25 on corruption, anticorruption, and that the situation was improving. UNCLASSIFIED 179 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Q 2019, correct? 2 THE CHAIRMAN: 3 AMBASSADOR HALE: Such that -- When was it that you made that certification? I'll have to look it up. It's a matter 4 of -- it's a public document. 5 as I do many reports for Congress that's required by Congress just to 6 say that Ukraine had made progress on corruption was the thrust of the 7 report. BY MR. MITCHELL: 8 Q 9 10 Yeah, on May 8th, I signed a report, And, in fact, funds were being obligated with regard to USAI as early as June and July of 2019, were they not? 11 A I don't know that level of detail, sir. 12 Q But you learned on, I think you said June 21st, about the 13 freeze? A 14 Yes. Again, in researching the records for this meeting 15 today, it was evident that I knew from my staff -- I think it was from 16 my staff -- that OMB had stopped the aid, or at least we were getting 17 inklings of that, that that was happening, and that the FMF-11 was also 18 held. Q 19 And with regard to the aid for Ukraine, was it your 20 understanding that that freeze on or about June 21st related to both 21 FMF and USAI? A 22 I don't know if that distinction was apparent to me at that 23 time. 24 meeting when I would focus on that particular issue. 25 May not have been until I was getting prepared for the D.C. Q Okay. And what was your understanding of where the UNCLASSIFIED 180 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 instruction to place a hold on the aid came from on or about June 21st? A Well, we weren't sure. And I actually -- there were several 3 emails that came to me after there was what we call a PCC meeting, which 4 is a lower level interagency meeting on July 23rd, and I was being told 5 that the aid -- that there's a Presidential directive. 6 emails that show. 7 I reacted to that and said: And I have the Who is saying this? 8 level aid cannot just stop assistance based on say-so. 9 have that authority. 10 That a lower PCC doesn't And I didn't want -- I was not satisfied that someone just saying 11 there was a Presidential directive actually even meant that the 12 President had done this. 13 14 15 I wanted clarity. I wanted a name of a named person who was saying: This is the President's wish. I never got that response until we were into the small group 16 meeting, the deputies small group meeting on July 25 in which OMB stated 17 on the record that it was the President through Chief of Staff Mulvaney. 18 19 Q At that deputies meeting, do you recall a discussion about the legality of the hold? 20 A No. 21 Q Do you recall having any discussions at any point with anyone 22 about the legality of the hold? 23 A 24 given. 25 Q I did not, no. I don't know. It may have been in some of the papers I was Again, I was focused on the policy. You testified earlier about a soft earmark. UNCLASSIFIED What did you 181 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 mean by that? A Well, it was based on the information that had been provided 3 to me to enable me to participate in the meeting that there was what 4 we call a soft earmark and that that meant -- the interpretation of 5 that meant that the money would have -- even if aid to the military 6 was frozen, the money would have -- money would have to be found to 7 go, that amount, and be spent in Ukraine. 8 9 10 11 Q All right. Going back to the beginning of September before the hold was lifted, do you recall any conversations that you had with anyone about security assistance? A There's nothing that I remember other than the small group 12 meeting and my note to the Secretary. 13 I may have reminded him at some point that this was still pending and 14 a problem. 15 remember a specific instance. 16 I may have -- we meet often. I don't have any record of that, and I don't -- I can't And there may have been cases where people were reminding me that 17 the assistance was still pending and that it was a problem. 18 certainly got the cable from the Ambassador, and the next day -- and 19 I believe it was the cable that prompted it -- but the next day the 20 European Bureau, Phil Reeker, wrote a memo which I would have seen at 21 the time that, quote, "the clock is ticking" on the time needed in order 22 to provide the assistance, and, again, asking for -- I think that the 23 intention was to remind people that we needed to try to get this done. 24 Q And did you do anything to follow up on that email? 25 A No, I knew it was in front of the Secretary already. UNCLASSIFIED We I may 182 UNCLASSIFIED 1 have mentioned it to him at the time. 2 he was fully versed on the matter. 3 Q I don't remember. But I knew Do you recall seeing a Washington Post editorial board 4 opinion on or about September 5th reporting that Trump was withholding 5 security assistance as part of an effort to pressure Ukraine to 6 investigate the Bidens? 7 A I don't remember that. 8 Q You don't recall having any discussions with anybody at the 9 beginning of September about that? 10 A No, I don't remember that. 11 Q And what about just generally about these allegations that 12 13 security assistance was being used as leverage? A My memory is that I first saw that when the whistleblower 14 stuff, which was coming out almost at the same time. I don't know 15 exactly when that occurred. 16 these -- there was this -- people were saying that there had been a 17 connection made. But that was when I saw that there were 18 Q And you had no discussions with Secretary Pompeo about this? 19 A I don't remember having them. 20 Q Okay. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: 22 questions on your side? I think we are finished. 23 MR. CASTOR: Just one or two. 24 MR. MEADOWS: No, go ahead. 25 Do you have any further Mr. Meadows? BY MR. CASTOR: UNCLASSIFIED 183 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 Q You mentioned in the Ambassador Taylor cable, he went through the pros and the cons of the withholding of the aid? A Well, the pros of going forth with the aid, and the cons about consequences if we did not go forth with the aid. Q Okay. That's fine. Sorry. And then the -- foreign aid, 6 for a variety of reasons, is subject to holds. 7 statement? Is that not a true 8 A That's true. 9 Q And the holds come from a variety of places. 10 are generated from the Hill; sometimes not. 11 aid is often held? 12 A It happens. Sometimes they But as a general matter, As I said, it was happening on Lebanon as well. 13 As I said earlier, there was speculation in an email between Assistant 14 Secretary -- well, the Assistant Secretary got back to me and said that 15 he and his OSD counterpart had been speculating on the Lebanon aid and 16 the fact that this was having on Ukraine, whether this was a new normal 17 in terms of -- I think the context was, is this the way we are going 18 forth with our foreign assistance review? 19 20 Q But we didn't know. And oftentimes the holds or the freezes, whatever you want to call it, gets resolved? 21 A Right. 22 Q And in this particular instance, were you hopeful or 23 24 25 Correct. confident that the hold would be resolved? A I very much hoped so. I believed that because of what we learned from OMB during that meeting, that the only thing that could UNCLASSIFIED 184 UNCLASSIFIED 1 be done about it was to convince the President. And I was 2 hoping -- very hopeful that the Secretary of State would be persuasive 3 and convince the President that this was the right thing to do, to 4 release the money. 5 Q And ultimately it was? 6 A It was. 7 Q And to your knowledge, there was no strings attached to that 9 A Right. 10 Q But, ultimately, you're not aware of any conditions being 8 11 12 aid? I never knew that. attached to the aid? A As I said, all I saw is what was exposed to the media of these 13 various things that people were saying about it, but, no, if you're 14 asking in the conduct of my job, no. 15 Q Okay. 16 MR. MEADOWS: And so I want to follow up there, Mr. Ambassador, 17 because the majority, you know, they want to document The New York 18 Times, Washington Post, and have us look backwards to have you opine 19 on all of these nefarious motivations as it relates to the aid. 20 And from your testimony, I think it's been very clear. You're 21 actually one of the few people that work on the seventh floor at the 22 State Department. Is that correct? 23 AMBASSADOR HALE: 24 MR. MEADOWS: 25 As a principal, correct. As a principal. And so Ambassador Hale, your testimony here today is that you were aware of no connection of the UNCLASSIFIED 185 UNCLASSIFIED 1 aid being held up in exchange for investigations into anything. 2 that correct? 3 AMBASSADOR HALE: 4 MR. MEADOWS: That's correct. Is I had no knowledge of that. And to your knowledge, you're not aware of 5 Secretary Pompeo having any direct knowledge of a connection between 6 investigations and the aid being held up. 7 AMBASSADOR HALE: 8 MR. MEADOWS: Is that correct? He never discussed it with me. All right. And so, as a person who would know at 9 the seventh floor, no matter how informed The Washington Post Editorial 10 Board may or may not be -- and I would put the emphasis on the "may 11 not be" -- as a person who should know, you're saying your sworn 12 testimony today is that you were not aware of connections to withhold 13 foreign aid to Ukraine. 14 AMBASSADOR HALE: 15 MR. MEADOWS: 16 17 Is that correct? Not aware of any what? Any nefarious motivations to withhold aid to Ukraine. AMBASSADOR HALE: That's correct. I did not know that. It was not explained to us. We did 18 not know why this had occurred. The 19 context, of course, as we knew, A, the President was skeptical of 20 assistance, generally, and, B, he was skeptical of the corruption 21 environment in Ukraine. 22 MR. MEADOWS: And so, as we look back through all of this, it was 23 your belief, I believe you testified not once, but several times today, 24 that it was your belief that the aid would ultimately get unsuspended 25 and released, and that the Ukrainian aid that you deemed as very UNCLASSIFIED 186 UNCLASSIFIED 1 necessary would ultimately arrive at its destination and be deployed 2 efficiently and effectively. AMBASSADOR HALE: 3 Is that correct? I believe in our system, sometimes it is very 4 convoluted; sometimes there are delays. 5 and differences of opinion as that process is unfolded, but I had 6 confidence that the argument in favor of this assistance was so strong 7 that, in the end, it would prevail and we would be able to resume the 8 assistance. MR. MEADOWS: 9 It is normal to have delays And, lastly, as we look at all of this, are you 10 aware, you know, we talk about the check off -- and I think Mr. Mitchell 11 was talking about a check off that happened in May that you go through 12 this process where they check off so that the aid can actually flow 13 through. If, indeed, a check off happened, which we have from other 14 15 witnesses suggested that they checked off and said that the Ukrainian 16 Government was making efforts on corruption, would it be reasonable 17 to put a pause on something if you had a Presidential election with 18 a new government coming in at that particular time to evaluate that, 19 because the timeframe that Mr. Mitchell put forth was May of 2019. 20 What other significant events were happening in the Ukraine at that 21 time? 22 AMBASSADOR HALE: Well, it's true that there was a Presidential 23 transition underway, as we all know and have discussed, and there were 24 parliamentary elections coming which were also very important to see 25 how strong the forces of reform would be in the country. UNCLASSIFIED Those were 187 UNCLASSIFIED 1 all factors in play at the moment. 2 President's mind as to why he took the position he took, but these are 3 factors that were occurring simultaneously. 4 MR. MEADOWS: I can't put myself in the And so I will close with this: Again, thank you 5 for your service. Thank you for your willingness to answer questions 6 from both the majority and the minority in a direct and succinct way. 7 And thank you for helping our Nation as it relates to foreign 8 policy. 9 actually make a real difference, where we don't have to address those 10 on Main Street here in the United States because we have you doing it 11 in places abroad. 12 13 It's the dedicated public servants, folks like you, that AMBASSADOR HALE: And I'll yield back. If I may just respond, thank you very much for that comment, and I will take that back to my colleagues. 14 MR. MEADOWS: 15 THE CHAIRMAN: 16 So I want to thank you. Please do. I have a few more followup questions based on my colleague's questions. 17 You probably have seen now the text mail communications as well 18 as some of the testimony of other witnesses that there was an effort 19 to get President Zelensky to commit to doing two investigations -- one 20 involving Burisma and the Bidens, and another involving this conspiracy 21 about 2016 -- in order to get a meeting with the President. 22 it you were out of the loop on that? 23 AMBASSADOR HALE: 24 THE CHAIRMAN: 25 I take Correct. So those that were involved in trying to arrange that, Ambassador Volker, Ambassador Sondland, or others, they did not UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 188 1 inform you that they were trying to get President Zelensky to commit 2 to these two investigations? 3 AMBASSADOR HALE: 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Correct. You were not on the text messages between these 5 parties discussing what needed to go into that public statement to get 6 the meeting. I take it you were out of the loop on that? 7 AMBASSADOR HALE: 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Correct. Ambassador Sondland's discussions with 9 Mr. Yermak in Warsaw about the conditioning of the military aid to 10 the -- to Ukraine's commitment to do these investigations, you were 11 out of the loop open that? 12 AMBASSADOR HALE: 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Correct. Ambassador Sondland didn't brief you about the 14 discussions he was having with his Ukraine counterparts to either 15 condition the White House meeting or the aid on these investigations, 16 you were out of the loop on that? 17 AMBASSADOR HALE: 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Correct. When Mr. Mulvaney acknowledged from the White 19 House in a press conference that, indeed, he had discussed with the 20 President doing this investigation into 2016 and that was part of the 21 reason they held up the aid, I take it you were out of the loop on his 22 conversations with the President, were you not? 23 AMBASSADOR HALE: 24 THE CHAIRMAN: 25 Correct. You just knew that Mulvaney had placed a hold on the aid, but you were not aware of his discussions with the President? UNCLASSIFIED 189 UNCLASSIFIED 1 AMBASSADOR HALE: Correct. Just to expand on that, what the OMB 2 deputy said was that this was a directive of the President and of Acting 3 Chief of Staff Mulvaney. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: And I take it the conversations that Ambassador 5 Sondland had with the President on the holdup of Ukraine military 6 assistance and that there would be a stalemate as long as Zelensky 7 didn't do what the President felt he should do, you were out of the 8 loop on that as well? 9 AMBASSADOR HALE: 10 THE CHAIRMAN: 11 MR. MEADOWS: 12 Correct. I have nothing further. Let me go ahead and have a followup against Mr. Chairman's cross. 13 Are you aware of anything that the Ukrainian Government has done 14 other than fighting corruption and passing bills to fight corruption 15 as it relates to the aid? 16 I mean, was there a leverage? I mean, was there a deliverable? 17 Are you aware of any deliverable the Ukrainians gave the United States 18 Government other than passing anticorruption bills that happened in 19 late August of 2019? 20 21 AMBASSADOR HALE: I don't know of anything that the Ukrainians have done in order of that nature, no. 22 MR. MEADOWS: 23 THE CHAIRMAN: 24 Ambassador Hale. 25 we are adjourned. All right, I will close. Okay. Thank you. That concludes the deposition of I want to thank you for your testimony today, and UNCLASSIFIED 190 UNCLASSIFIED [Whereupon, at 2:44 the deposition was concluded.] UNCLASSIFIED