L PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE, joint with the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM and the COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. DEPOSITION OF: DAVID A. Fniday, HOLMES Novemben 15, Washington, D.C. 2Ot9 2 The deposition in the above matter was held in Capitol Visiton Centen, commencing Room HVC-304, at 4:L2 p.n. Pnesent: Repnesentatives Schiff, Canson, Speien, Quigley, Swalwell, Castno, Heck, Welch, Sean Patnick Maloney of Demings, Tunnen, Wenstrup, Stewart, New Yonk, Stefanik, Ratcliffe, and londan. AIso Present: Representatives Canolyn B. Maloney of Lieu, Conno1ly, Raskin, Wassenman New Yonk, Schultz, Meadows, Ze1din, and Roy. AQQear?ances: For? the PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE: 4 FoT thE COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM: Fon thc COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Fon DAVID A. HOLMES: KEN WAINSTEIN PAUL ]. NATHANSON KATHERINE SWAN DAVIS POLK & WARDWELL LLP 9OL - 15TH STREET NEW WASHTNGToN, DC 20OO5 5 THE CHAIRMAN: A11 As we ane night. The committee getting a late stant -- and I will come to onden. thank you, Mn. Holmes, fon being hene, and thank you for being patient with us as we were concluding anothen heaning going to just can move -- with my colleagues' penmission, submit my opening statement fon the necond so quickly to the deposition. I I am that we know people have planes and othen things they'd like to catch. I to would encounage the minonity, submit if you have any opening statement, it fon the necord. MR. JORDAN: that. I'm fine with One question. THE CHAIRMAN: YCAh. MR. IORDAN: When might we we have them befone Vindman, is get those foun tnanscnipts, and can the next heaning? I think Mn. Vindman, Colonel scheduled for Tuesday. The foun that haven't been released. THE CHAIRMAN: I wilI double check with my staff, but I am hopeful that they will all be out by then. MR. JORDAN: Okay. At least the ones we've done so fan. THE CHAIRMAN: MR. IORDAN: I undenstand Mn. Holmes, we would his done as quickly as possible, we like, obviously, centainly want those foun -- THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. MR. JORDAN: -- befone the next. I think that is veny doable, and we will try to put them out as soon as we can. But I think that should be doable. THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, 6 If it to be, I will get back to I'm going to yield to Mn. Noble. tunns out not you. MR. NOBLE: Thank you Mn. Chairman. This is a deposition of Mn. David Holmes, Permanent Select Committee on impeachment Septemben Intelligence, pursuant to the inquiny announced by the 24th, Speaken of the House on 2O\9. name and spell last into the mike. Maybe pul1 Mn. Holmes, could you please state youn fon the necond? And it a little bit conducted by the House if can speak directly fu1I to you. They're veny sensitive. Yes. David Andrew Holmes. The last closen MR. HOLMES: is name spelled H-o-1-m-e-s. MR. NOBLE: Thank you. in furthenance of the inquiny to is pant of a joint investigation led by the Along with othen pnoceedings date, this deposition Intelligence Committee in coondination with the Committees on Foneign Affains and Ovensight and Refonm. In the room today ane thnee committees, and this majority staff will be a and minonity staff staff-led deposition. fnom aII Membens, their allotted time, as has been the case in every deposition since the inception of this investigation. of course, fiBy ask questions duning My name is Daniel Nob1e. I am a senion counsel, investigative counsel fon HPSCI on the majority staff. senion And for coming in today fon this deposition. I'd like to do bnief introductions. To my night is I want to thank you Daniel 7 Goldman, staff. the dinecton of the investigations fon the Mn. Goldman and I will be conducting most HPSCI majonity of the intenview fon the majonity today. I'11 now let my countenparts fon the minonity intnoduce themselves. MR. CASTOR: Steve Caston with the Republican staff. I MR. NOBLE: This deposition with be conducted entinely at the unclassified level. Howeven, the deposition is being conducted in in the pnesence of staff with appnopniate secunity cleanances. It is the committee's expectation that neithen questions asked of you nor answens pnovided by you will nequine discussion of any infonmation that is cunnently or at any point could HPSCI's secune spaces and be pnopenly classified unden Executive Onden t3526. You'ne neminded "In no case that Executive Onden 13526 states that, quote, shall infonmation be classified, continue to be maintained as classified, on fail to be declassified, " unquote, fon the punpose of concealing violations of penson on any entity. If any 1aw on pneventing embannassment of any of our questions can only be answened with classified information, please infonm us of that and we'11 adjust accondingly. Today's deposition because of the sensitive is not being taken in executive and confidential natune of some session, but of the topics 8 and matenials that witl to the tnanscript of the be discussed, access deposition will be limited to the thnee committees in attendance. Unden the House deposition nules, no Memben of Congness non any staff memben of the testimony you pnovide today. can discuss the substance You and youn will attorney Befone we begin, to have an oppontunity I'd like to neview the tnanscnipt. go over the gnound rules fon the deposition. We will be following the House negulations fon deposition, which we have pneviously provided to youn counsel. The t houn deposition will pnoceed as follows. will given houn to ask The majonity to ask questions, then the minonity will be given t questions. Theneafter, we will altennate back and fonth between majonity and minonity in 45-minute nounds until questioning is complete. We'11 take peniodic bneaks, at any time, please Under the if necessany. And if you need a break let us know. fon othen pensons on house deposition nuIes, counsel government agencies may not attend. You'ne penmitted attonney present duning this deposition, and I to have an that you have bnought their appearances fon see some. At this time, if counsel could please state the necond. MR. WAINSTEIN: Good Wandwell, with aftennoon. Ken tnJainstein, Davis my colleagues. MS. SWAN: Kathenine Swan, Davis PoIk & Wandwell. MR. NATHANSON: And Paul Nathanson fnom Davis PoIk. Polk & 9 MR. NOBLE: Thank you. Thene is a stenognaphen taking down evenything today in onden to necond to be make that is said hene a wnitten necord of the deposition. Fon the clean, please wait until each question is completed befone you begin youn answen, and we will wait until you finish youn response befone asking you the next question. The stenognaphen cannot recond nonvenbal answens, such as shaking youn head, so it's audible venbal We ask impontant that you answen each question with an answen. that you give complete neplies to questions based on youn If a question is unclean on you're uncentain in your response, please let us know. And if you do not know the answen best necol]ection. to the question You may on cannot nememben, simply say so. only nefuse to necognized by answen a the committee. If the basis on pnivilege, the staff question to pnesenve a pnivilege you nefuse may to answen a question on eithen proceed with the deposition on seek a nuling fnom the chainman on the objection. If the chain overnules any such objection, yoU'ne nequined to answen the question. Fina11y, you'ne reminded that unlawful to delibenately of Congness on congnessional staff. It is impenative, therefone, that you not only answen oun questions tnuthfully, but that you give fuII and complete answens to all questions asked of you. Omissions may also be considened as false pnovide false infonmation to it is Members statement. As this deposition is unden oath, Mn. Holmes, would you please 10 stand and naise your Do you swean right that hand to be swonn? youn testimony provided hene today wiIl be the whole tnuth and nothing but the truth? MR. HOLMES: I dO. MR. NOBLE: Thank you. Let the record neflect the witness has been swonn. You can be seated. if you have an opening statement on if youn attorney has any mattens that need to be discussed, now is the time. MR. HOLMES: Okay. I do have an opening statement. And now, Mn. Holmes, THE CHAIRMAN: You may pnoceed. Thank you. MR. HOLMES: Thank you, Mn. Chainman and membens committees. Good Foneign Senvice August 2Ot7, in Kyiv, I aftennoon. My name is political the David Holmes. I'm a caneen officen with the Depantment of State. have been the of counselon Since at the U.S. Embassy Uknaine. trlhile it is an honor to appear befone you today, I want to make I did not seek this oppontunity to testify today. You have detenmined that I may have something of value to these pnoceedings, and it is thenefone my obligation to appean and to telI you what I know. Indeed, Secretany Pompeo stated last week: I hope evenyone who clean that testifies wilt do so tnuthfully and accunately, when they do, the ovensight nole will have been penfonmed and I think Amenica will come to see what took place hene. That is my goal today, to testify tnuthfully and accunatelY, to 11 to penfonm that nole. And to that end, I have hunniedly put togethen this statement oven the past couple days to descnibe as best I can my necollection of events that may be nelevant to this matten. I've spent my entine pnofessional caneen senving my countny as enable you a Foneign Senvice I senved at the officen. Embassy in Pnion to my cunnent post in Kyiv, Moscow, Russia, as Deputy and Uknaine, Intennal Unit Chief in the Political Section, and befone that as Senion Energy Officen in the Economic Section. In Washington, I senve on the National Secunity Council staff as Dinecton fon Afghanistan and as Special Assistant to the Unden Secnetany of State. My pnion ovenseas assignments include New De1hi, India; Kabul, Afghanistan; Bogota, Colombia; and Pnistina, Kosovo. of Pomona degrees I am a gnaduate College in Claremont, Califonnia, and received my gnaduate in intennational affairs fnom the Univensity of St. Andnews in Scotland and fnom Pninceton Univensity's Woodnow Wilson School of Public and Intennational Affains. the political counselon at I Political Section covening Uknaine's domestic politics, foneign policy, and conflict diplomacy, and senve as the senion policy and political As to the Ambassadon. The job of an embassy political Embassy Kyiv, lead the advison about the host countny's internal counselon is to gathen infonmation politics, foneign relations, and secunity policies, nepont back to Washington, nepnesent U.S. policies in the foneign -- in that countny, development and implementation. and advise the Ambassadon on policy T2 In this nole, I'm a senion memben of the and Embassy's Countny continually involved in addnessing issues as they arise. may also called upon to take notes in meetings involving the on visiting senion U.S. officials with Team I'm Ambassadon Uknainian countenpants, particulanly within the Uknainian Pnesidential administration. Fon this reason, I have been pnesent Pnesident Zelensky and his administration, to this inquiny. including enengy Othen issues and that in many meetings with some may be of which this inquiny, unden my specific nelevant to the justice secton, did not fall may be germane pontfolio, and I was not the expent, but I followed those issues they had a political inasmuch as While I am component. the Political Counselon at the Embassy, it is impontant I am not a political appointee on engaged in U.S. politics in any way. It is not my job to coven on advise on U.S. politics. 0n the contrany, I am an apolitical foneign policy professional, and my job is to focus on the politics of the countny in which I senve, so to note that that we can betten undenstand the loca1 landscape and betten advance U.S. national intenests thene. I joined the Foneign Senvice thnough an apolitical, menit-based pnocess unden the George W. Bush administnation, and served administnations of both parties and wonked fon both political and caneer. I anrived in Kyiv to take up my assignment in August 2OL7, a year aften appointment. Fnom August as until have pnoudly their appointees, Political Ambassador Yovanovitch 2Q77 I Counselon received hen removal fnom post hen in May 2079' 13 I was Ambassadon Yovanovitch's deep respect During fon hen I we wonked closely together, speaking multiple accompanied Ambassadon Yovanovitch meeting with senion Uknainian counterpants. I was to many of met whom at least a dozen times. Oun wonk and hen also the notetaken fon senion U.S. visitors with, for example, Pnesident Ponoshenko, I a dedication, detenmination, and pnofessionalism. this time, times pen day, and chief policy advison and developed in Uknaine focused on thnee pillans: addnessing peace secunity, economic gnowth and nefonm, and anti-conruption and nule of law. These pillars matched the thnee consistent pniorities of the Uknainian people since 2OL4, as measuned in public opinion polling, namely, an end to the and conflict with Russia that nestores national unity tennitonial integnity, nesponsible economic policies that deliven of growth and opportunity, and effective and impantial nule of law institutions that deliven justice in cases of high level official connuption. Oun effonts on this third pi11an menit special European standands attention special mention, Yovanovitch's tenune that because we achieved it was during Ambassadon the hand-fought passage of a law establishing an independent anti-connuption count to tny connuption cases bnought by the National Anti-Connuption Buneau, anothen independent These institution established with U.S. suppont. effonts strained Ambassadon Yovanovitch's nelationship with President Ponoshenko and some of his aIlies, including Pnosecuton Genenal Yuriy Lutsenko, who nesisted fulIy fonmen empowening truly L4 anti-corruption institutions that would help ensune that independent no Uknainians, howeven powenful, wene above the Ambassadon and Beginning Uknaine changed in towand Uknaine. the situation at the Manch 2019, Embassy and in dramatically. Specifically, our diplomatic policy had been focused on supponting Uknainian democnatic refonm and resistance to Russian aggnession became ovenshadowed Giuliani and a cadne operating with a direct channel to the White House. agenda being pnomoted by Rudy That change began with the emengence of Howeven, the the Embassy kept pushing anti-conruption and othen pillans of oun policy that law. of by a political of officials pness neponts cnitical Ambassador Yovanovitch and machinations by Mn. Lutsenko and othens to discnedit hen. In mid-Manch 20L9, an Embassy fnom a Uknainian contact Ambassadon Yovanovitch nefusal to suppont him that Mn. Lutsenko had complained that had, quote, unquote, destnoyed him, with her until commitments and ceased using he followed thnough with made political intenests. had ondened NABU service, solely of the nefonm a senies of unsupponted Yovanovitch, mostly suggesting that Ambassadon Ambassadon Yovanovitch impnopenly used Democnats' his his position for pensonal gain. In netaliation, Mr. Lutsenko allegations against colleague leanned the Embassy to advance Mr. Lutsenko claimed that the Embassy to investigate the fonmen head of Uknaine's tax because the formen head was the main Uknainian contact Republican Party and of Pnesident Mn. Lutsenko also claimed that the Tnump pensonally. Embassy had pnessuned formen 15 Pnosecuton Genenal Shokin fonmen his to engineen the closing of the case against Ministen of Ecology Zlochevsky because of the connection between company, Bunisma, and fonmen Vice Pnesident Biden's Lutsenko said that after Ambassadon Yovanovitch's posting in Kyiv, would face, quote, unquote, senious pnoblems Embassy colleagues had made additional son. Mn. in the United she States. also heand fnom a neponten that Mn. Lutsenko unsupponted claims against Ambassadon Yovanovitch, including that she had allegedly given him a, quote, unquote, do not pnosecute list containing the allegation the State of her supposed a1Iies, an names Depantment called an outright fabnication and that Mn. Lutsenko laten netracted. Mn. Lutsenko also alleged he neven neceived an estimated $4.4 office. head of And, NABU finally, million in U.S. funds intended fon his he alleged that there was a tape ofthe cunnent saying he was tnying to help Hillany Clinton win the 2016 election. Pub1ic opinion polls in Uknaine indicated that Uknainians genenally did not believe Mn. Lutsenko's allegations, and March 22nd, Pnesident Ponoshenko issued on a statement in suppont of Ambassadon Yovanovitch. Anound this same time, the Uknainian Pnesidential election was appnoaching, and Volodymyn Zelensky was sunging in the pol}s, ahead of Mn. Lutsenko's political a1Iy, Pnesident Ponoshenko. On Apnil z?th, I was pnesent fon Ambassadon Yovanovitch's thind and final meeting with then candidate Zelensky, ahead in the nunoff election the next day. As in of his landslide victory hen two pnion meetings that 16 I also attended, they had an entirely condial, pleasant convensation and signaled thein mutual desine On in April to wonk togethen. 26th, Ambassador Yovanovitch depanted fon consultations necalled. I Washington, D.C., whene she leanned she would be not know the details of hen conversations in Washington until I hen deposition statement, do nead but it was clean at the time she was being removed eanly. The bannage of allegations dinected at Ambassadon Yovanovitch, a caneer ambassador, which included aggnessive neponting against in the U.S. media, is unlike anything I've seen in hen my pnofessional caneen. Following President-elect Zelensky's victory, our attention in the Embassy focused on getting to know the incoming Zelensky administnation and coondinating with tnlashington on pneparations fon the inauguration scheduled fon May 2?th, the same day Ambassadon Yovanovitch depanted post penmanently. In eanly May, shontly aften Mn. Giuliani cancelled a visit to Uknaine, alleging Mn. Zelensky was, quote, unquote, surnounded by of the U.S. Pnesident, we learned that Vice Pnesident Pence no longen planned to lead the Pnesidential delegation to the inaugunation. The White House ultimately whittled back an initial enemies official delegation to the inaugunation fnom oven a dozen individuals to just five: Secnetany Penny, as its head, Ambassador to the Eunopean Union Gondon Sondland, Special proposed list fon the Repnesentative fon Uknaine Negotiations Kunt Volken, repnesenting the L7 State Depantment, National Secunity Council Dinecton AIex Vindman, repnesenting the White House, and temponary acting Change d'Affaines Joseph Pennington, nepnesenting the Embassy. While Ambassadon Sondland's mandate as Ambassador to the Eunopean Union did not coven individual memben states, countnies access like Iet alone nonmemben Uknaine, he made clean that he had dinect and frequent to Pnesident Tnump and Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney and pontnayed himself as the conduit to the Pnesident and Mn. Mulvaney for that gnoup. Ambassadon Penny -- sonny, excuse me Ambassadon Sondland, and Ambassadon Volken Thnee Amigos and made -- Secnetany Perny, laten styled themselves the clear they would take the lead on coondinating oun policy and engagement with the Zelensky administnation. Anound the same time, I lawyen, was taking a dinect role 25th, Ivan Bakanov, Giuliani, a pnivate in Uknainian diplomacy. 0n Apnil became awane who was Mn. that Mn. Zelensky's childhood fniend, campaign chain, and ultimately appointed head of the Secunity Senvices of Uknaine, indicated to someone named me pnivately that Giu1iani, who said he was an advison to the Vice Pnesident, unquote. I neponted Mn. Bakanov's message Assistant Secnetany of State Oven it became appanent that dinect influence on the foneign policy Thnee Amigos were executing on to Deputy Geonge Kent. the following months, was having a he had been contacted by, quote, Mn. Giuliani agenda that the the gnound in Ukraine. In fact, at one point duning a preliminany meeting of the inaugunal delegation, in the group wondened aloud about why Mr. Giuliani was so someone active in 18 the media with nespect to Uknaine. Sondland and stated: Dammit, effs evenything up. Rudy. My necollection is that time Rudy gets involved he goes Eveny He used Ambassadon the "F" wond. The inaugunation took place on May z?th, and I took notes in the delegation's meeting with Pnesident Zelensky. Duning the meeting, Secretany Penny passed Pnesident Zelensky a he tnusts" list of, quote, "people fnom whom Zelensky could seek advice on enengy secton refonm, which was the topic of subsequent meetings between Secnetany Perny and key Ukrainian enengy secton contacts, from which Embassy personnel wene excluded by Secnetary Penry's On May staff 23rd, Ambassadon Volken, Ambassadon Sondland, Secnetary Penry, and Senaton Ron Johnson, who also attended the inaugunation, though not in the official delegation, netunned to the United States and bniefed Pnesident Trump. 0n May 29th, Pnesident Tnump signed congratulatony letten to Pnesident invitation to visit the White It is impontant to House undenstand critical to Pnesident Zelensky. at the highest levels, both to agenda Zelensky, which included at an unspecified advance an date. that a White House visit He needed a was to demonstnate U.S. suppont his ambitious anti-connuption at home and to encounage Russian President Putin to take seniously President Zelensky's peace efforts. President Zelensky's team immediately began to pness to set a date for the visit. President Zelensky and senion membens clean they wanted Pnesident Zelensky's l,,lashington to send a stnong signal of finst of his ovenseas team made tnip to be to Westenn suppont, and nequested 19 a call with Pnesident We at the Tnump Embassy as soon as possible. also believed that a meeting was cnitical to the success of President Zelensky's administnation and its agenda and we wonked hand When Pnesident neply, they to be that to to get it Bnusse1s, Zelensky's team did not neceive an affinmative in pant to attend an Amenican Ambassadon Sondland hosted hosted a dinner annanged. plans fon Pnesident Zelensky's made nefonm finst ovenseas tnip Independence Day event on June 4th. Ambassadon Sondland in Pnesident Zelensky's honon following the neception, which included President Ze1ensky, laned Kushner, Ulnich Bnechbuhl, Fedenica Moghenini, and comedian Jay Leno, among othens. In the week leading up to the event, Ambassadon Secnetary Penry, and Secnetany Penry's and unconventional nole staff in fonmulating wene taking a veny active oun pnioniti.es fon the Zelensky administnation and pensonally neaching out Zelensky and his senion Bill Sondland, to new President team. in Kyiv as Change d'Affaines on June 17th. For the next month, a focus of oun activities, along with the Thnee Amigos, was to coondinate a White House visit, and to that end, we wene wonking with the Uknainians to deliven things that we Ambassador thought Pnesident Taylon annived Tnump might cane about, such as commencial deals benefiting the United States. Ambassadon pnion Taylon neponted that Secnetany Pompeo had told him to his annival in Kyiv, quote, We need to work on turning the Pnesident anound on Uknaine, unquote. Ambassadon Volken told us the 20 next 5 yeans, which I took to mean Pnesident Zelensky's tenm would hang on what we could accomplish Within a week on two, it in office, in the next 3 months. became appanent that the enengy secton neforms, the commencial deals, and the anti-connuption refonms on which we wene making some the White House On lune process wene not making a dent in tenms of pensuading to schedule a meeting between the Pnesidents. 27th, phone conversation, Ambassadon Sondland told Ambassadon Taylon in a the gist of which Ambassadon Taylon shaned with at the time, that President Pnesident Tnump that Pnesident me of, quote, investigations. I Zelensky needed to make clear to Zelensky was not standing undenstood that this in the way was refenning to the Bunisma-Biden investigations that Mn. Giuliani and his associates had been speaking about in the media since Manch. While Ambassadon Taylon did not brief communications with the Thnee Amigos, he did call with Pnesident Zelensky, it was made clean was that some Ambassadon me on eveny tell me with even if action on a Burisma-Biden investigation a meeting could occun, Embassy on a June 28th Taylon, and the Thnee Amigos, a pnecondition for an Oval Office meeting. that that detail of his it We became concenned would not go we1l, and I discussed colleagues whethen we should stop seeking a meeting altogethen. I in the Embassy conference noom fon the National Security Council secune video confenence caII on July 18th when an Office of Management and Budget staff member sunprisingly announced was pnesent the hold on Uknaine secunity assistance near the end of an almost 2-houn 27 meeting. The official and had been conveyed said that the onden had to OMB come fnom the Pnesident by Mn. Mulvaney without funther explanation. This began a week on so of efforts by various agencies to identify the nationale fon the fneeze, to conduct a neview of the assistance, and to neaffinm the unanimous view of its impontance. change NSC of the Uknainian policy countenpants affinmed that thene community had been no in our Uknaine policy, but could not determine the cause of the hold on how to While I lift it. am awane of testimony neganding discussions Ambassadon Taylon, Ambassadon Volken, and and 20th, I was not awane between the Thnee Amigos on Ju1y 19th of those discussions at the time. 0n Ju1y 25th, President Tnump made a congnatulatony phone call to President ZeLensky after his panty won a commanding majonity in Uknaine's panliamentany election. Contnany to standand pnocedune, the Embassy neceived no read-out of the caII, and I was unawane of what was discussed until the transcript was neleased on Septemben 25th. Upon neading the tnanscnipt, I was deeply disappointed to see that of what I undenstood to be oun intenagency foneign policy pniorities in Uknaine and instead naised the Pnesident naised agreed-upon none the Biden-Bunisma investigation and nefenned to the theony about CnowdStnike, which was supposedly connected played a nole to Uknaine and allegedly in the 2016 election. The next day, JuIy 26,20L9, I attended meetings Pnesidential Administnation Building in Kyiv with at the Ambassadon Taylon, 22 Volker, Ambassadon and Ambassadon Sondland, and took notes during those meetings. We first had a meeting Zelensky. Pnesident with Andniy Bohdan, the Chief of Staff to bnief, as Mn. Bohdan The meeting was been summoned by Pnesident Zelensky to prepare for had alneady a subsequent bnoader meeting, but he did say that President Tnump had expressed intenest duning the pnevious day's phone cal} to the Pnosecuton decisions nelated The senion in Pnesident Zelensky's pensonnel delegation then met with President Zelensky and sevenal othen officials. During the meeting, President Zelensky stated that during the Ju1y 25th caI1, Pnesident times naised, quote, unquote, to follow would have in penson. did not General's Office. Tnump some veny had, quote, unquote, thnee sensitive issues, those sensitive issues were. quickly Ambassadon SondIand, who was to fty out that afternoon, stayed behind to As top aide to President I was leaving had not expected When I Ze1ensky. I was told Ambassadon Sondland and Yenmak as a notetaken. to join that meeting Ambassador Sondland have a meeting with Andniy the meeting with Pnesident Zelensky, to join the meeting with I Ambassadon Vo1ken and left the Pnesidential Administnation Building for a tnip to the fnont 1ines. Yenmak, a he of the July 25th calI, I Aften the meeting with President Zelensky, Ambassador Taylon that up on those issues when they met, quote, unquote, Not having neceived a nead-out know what and and was a as he headed to meet Mn. neached Mn. Yenmak's office, flight of stains behind Yenmak. Ambassadon Sondland had 23 alneady gone in. I explained to Mr. Yenmak's assistant that I was to join the meeting as the Embassy's nepnesentative and stnongly urged hen to let me in. But she told me that Ambassadon supposed Sondland and Mn. Yenmak had insisted that the meeting be held one-on-one with no notetaken. I then waited in the antenoom a member of Ambassadon Sondl-and's until the meeting ended, along with staff and a memben of U.S. Embassy Kyiv staff. When the meeting ended, the two staffens and I Ambassadon Sondland and to the Embassy to Iunch, to go if he wanted out of the Pnesidential Administnation Building vehicle. and accompanied Ambassadon Sondland said that he wanted I told Ambassadon Sondland I would be happy to join to bnief me out on the Yenmak meeting on discuss other issues, and Ambassadon Sondland said that I should join. The two staffens joined fon lunch as well. The foun of us went to a neanby nestaunant and sat on an outdoon ternace. I sat dinectly across fnom Ambassadon SondIand, and the two sides. staffens sat off to oun Ambassadon Sondland foun At finst, the Iunch was Iangely social. selected a bottle of wine that he shared of us, and we discussed topics among the such as manketing stnategies fon his hotel business. Duning call a the lunch, Pnesident call Tnump Ambassadon Sondland to give him an update. said that he was going to Ambassadon Sondland placed on his mobile phone, and I heand him announce himself sevenal times, along the lines of: Gondon Sondland holding for the Pnesident. 24 It appeaned that he was being transfenned thnough sevenal layens of switchboards and assistants. I then noticed Ambassador Sondland's demeanon change, and undenstood that he had been connected to President Tnump. While Ambassadon Sondland's phone was not on speaken phone, I could hean the Pnesident's voice through the ean piece of the phone. The Pnesident's voice was veny loud and necognizable, and Ambassadon Sondland hetd the phone away fnom pnesumably because I he was of the loud volume. heand Ambassadon Sondland gneet calling fnom Kyiv. I Ambassadon Sondland was in Uknaine, he was his ean fon a peniod of time, heand President Tnump then in Uknaine. and went on the Pnesident and explain that Ambassador Sondland clanify that replied, Y€s, to state that Pnesident Zelensky, quote, unquote, loves youn ass. I then heand Pnesident Tnump ask, quote, "So he's going to do the investigation?" unquote. going to do it, " adding Ambassadon Sondland neplied that, "He's that Pnesident Zelensky wiI1, quote, "Do anything you ask him to." I did not take notes of these statements, I had a clean necollection that these statements wene made. I believe that my colleagues who wene sitting at the table also knew that Ambassadon Even though Sondland was speaking with the Pnesident. The convensation then on behalf and shifted to Ambassador Sondland's of the Pnesident, to assist a nappen who was efforts, jailed in Sweden, I could only hean Ambassadon Sondland's side of that pant of the 25 convensation. Ambassadon Sondland was, quote, unquote, kind told the Pnesident that the nappen of eff'd thene -- I think I said the magic -- he was kind of eff'd thene -- he used the actual wond -- and, quote, he should have pled guilty. He recommended that the Pnesident, quote, wait until aften the sentencing on it would only make it wonse, unquote, adding, the Pnesident should, quote, let him get sentenced, wond play the nacism cand, and give him a ticken-tape when he comes home, unquote. Ambassadon Sondland funthen told the Pnesident that Sweden, quote, should have neleased him on youn wond, unquote, but that, quote, you can teIl the Kandashians you tnied. Aften the end of the cal1, Ambassadon Sondland nemarked that the in a bad mood. As Ambassadon Sondland stated, it was often the case eanly in the monning. I then took the oppontunity to ask Ambassadon Sondland for his Pnesident was candid impression of the Pnesident's views on Uknaine. In panticulan, I asked Ambassadon Sondland give a shit about Uknaine. Pnesident did not give a I asked why not, if it was tnue that the Pnesident did not Ambassadon Sondland agneed that the shit about Ukraine. and Ambassadon Sondland only canes about, quote, unquote, "big stuff. stated, the Pnesident " I noted that thene was, quote, unquote, big stuff going on in Uknaine, Iike a wan with Russia. And Ambassadon Sondland replied that he meant, quote, unquote, "big stuff" that benefits the Pnesident, like the, quote, investigation" that Mn. Giuliani was pushing. unquote, "Biden The convensation then 26 moved on to othen topics. Upon of Mission neturning to the Embassy, I immediately told the Deputy Chief and othens and my convensation Embassy in the with Embassy about Ambassadon the call with the Pnesident Sondland. I also emailed an official in Sweden reganding the issue with the U.S. nappen that was discussed on the caIl. July 26th, that a planned vacation same that day, was my last day in the office ahead of ended on Ju1y neturning to the Embassy, I told caII. I also nepeatedly nefenned Ambassadon Sondland in 6th -- sonny, August 6th. Aften Ambassador Taylon about to the call the July 26th and convensation with meetings and convensations where the issue of the Pnesident's intenest in Ukraine was potentially nelevant. At that time, Ambassadon Sondland's statement of the Pnesident's lack of intenest in Uknaine was of particulan focus. that in orden to secure a meeting between Pnesident Zelensky we would have to wonk hard in We undenstood Tnump and Pnesident to find a way to explain Uknaine's that he found compelling. Oven the ensuing weeks, we continued to try to identify ways to importance fname to Pnesident Tnump tenms the impontance of Uknaine in ways that would appeal to the pnesident and to tny to move fonwand on the scheduling of a White House visit stilt by President Zelensky. 0n July 28th, while Pnesident not moving fonwand -- sonny -- was still not moving Tnump was fonwand with a meeting with President Zelensky, he met with Russian President Putin at the of G20 Summit suppont in Osaka, to Uknaine. Japan, sending a furthen signal of lack 27 Uknainian Independence Day is August 24th, also pnesented a good to oppontunity show suppont fon Uknaine. Secnetany Pompeo had considened attending, National Secunity Advison Bolton attended the pnion yean in 20t8, and Secnetany -- Defense -- then-Secretany Mattis attended in 2@L7. But in the end, senion to Ambassadon Volken attended. Secnetany nobody Shontly theneafter, on August 27th, Ambassadon Bolton visited Uknaine and bnought welcome news that President meet Pnesident Zelensky on Septemben Ambassadon Mn. Tnump had agneed to 1st in Wansaw. I tOok notes in Bolton's meeting with Pnesident Zelensky's Chief of Staff, Bohdan. Ambassadon the Pnesidents in nelationship. Bolton told Mn. Bohdan that the meeting between Wansaw would be, quote, "cnucial to cementing their " Between meetings Ambassador Taylon and that day, I heard Ambassador Bolton expness to National Security Council Senion Dinecton Monrison his fnustnation about Mn. Giuliani's influence with the Pnesident, making clean that thene was nothing he could do about He necommended that new Prosecuton Tim Genenal Ruslan Ryaboshapka, it. who would neplace Mn. Lutsenko, open a channel with Attonney Genenal Banr in place of Mn. Yenmak's channel with Mn. Giuliani. He also expnessed fnustration about expansive intenpnetation staff to confinm Union was mandate, musing that he should ask his that the mandate of the U.S. Ambassadon to the limited to the individual of his Ambassadon Sondland's memben Eunopean Union and had no Eunopean authonity with the states, Iet alone nonmembens like Uknaine. 28 Bolton funther indicated the hold on secunity Ambassadon assistance would not be lifted pnion to the Wansaw meeting, whene it would hang on whethen Pnesident Zelensky was able "favonably impness Pnesident to, quote, unquote, Tnump." tnip, hold nemained in place with no clean means to get it lifted. Pnesident Tnump ultimately pulled out of the Wansaw Aften the tnip was cancelled, Ambassadon Taylon also told Ambassadon Bolton necommended me that that Ambassadon Taylon send a finst-penson cable to Secnetary Pompeo anticulating the impontance of the secunity assistance. At Ambassadon Taylon's dinection, and tnansmitted so the I dnafted the cable August 29th, which furthen attempted to explain Ukraine's impontance and the impontance of the secunity to U.S. national secunity. Duning this time, we wene still tnying to appeal to Pnesident Tnump in foneign policy and national security tenms. By this point, assistance howeven, my clear impression was that the secunity assistance hold was likely intended by the Pnesident eithen to express dissatisfaction that the Ukrainians had not yet agneed to the Bunisma-Biden investigations effort to incnease the pressune on them to do so. I've since nead in Ambassador Taylon's testimony an account of on as an a meeting in Warsaw was acconding would not be to in which Ambassadon Sondland told Mn. Mornison, lifted until Mn. Yenmak, this that the security assistance freeze Pnesident Zelensky committed to the investigation. I have also nead Ambassadon Taylon's testimony about the text exchange and phone call between Ambassadon Burisma-Biden 29 Taylon and Ambassadon Sondland in which Ambassadon Sondland admitted that, quote, "evenything was dependent on an announcement, Pnesident Tnump wanted Pnesident Ze1ensky, quote, " and "in a public that box. " I took notes at Senaton lohnson and Senaton Chnis Munphy's meeting with Pnesident Zelensky in Kyiv. Pnesident 0n Septemben 5th, Zelensky asked about the secunity assistance. Although both Senatons stnessed bipantisan congnessional suppont fon Uknaine, Senator lohnson cautioned Pnesident Zelensky that Pnesident Tnump has a negative view of Uknaine and ovencomlng it. that President Zelensky would have a Senaton Johnson funthen explained difficult time that he was, quote, "shocked" by Pnesident Tnump's negative neaction duning an Oval Office meeting on May 23nd when he and the Thnee Amigos pnoposed that Pnesident Tnump meet Pnesident Zelensky and show suppont I was not awane until I nead Ambassadon fon Uknaine. Taylon's testimony on the vanious exchanges on Septemben 7th and 8th about Pnesident Tnump apparently insisting that Pnesident Zelensky pensonally go to a micnophone and say he was opening election interfenence on investigations of the Bidens and 2@t6 of Mn. Yenmak' s message that President Zelensky was pnepaned to Howeven, Ambassador Taylon did te}l make to Ambassadon Sondland a statement on CNN. me on Septemben 8th, quote, now they'ne insisting Zelensky commit to the investigation in an intenview with CNN, unquote. I was sunpnised the nequinement was so specific and concnete. While we had advised oun Uknainian counterpants to voice a commitment to following the nule of law and genenally to investigate cnedible 30 conruption allegations, pensonally commit political nival this was a demand that Pnesident to a specific investigation of Zelensky Pnesident Tnump's on a cable news channel. 0n Septemben 11th, the hold on secunity assistance was lifted, though it nemained unclean to us why it Although we knew the hold was was imposed lifted, Pnesident Zelensky may have committed we wene in the finst place. sti11 concenned that to give the intenview at the in Kyiv on Septemben 12th to 14th whene CNN's Faneed Zakania was one of the modenatons. annual YES ! Confenence On Septemben 13th, an Embassy colleague received a phone call fnom a colleague at the U.S. Embassy to the Sondland and texted me reganding Zelensky intenview Septemben is supposed 16th -- sonry, today Eunopean Union under Ambassadon the ca1I, quote, Sondland said the to be on Monday -- that would be on Monday, Septemben 16th, and they plan to announce that a centain investigation that was, quote, "on hold" will pnogness. The text also explained that oun Eunopean Union Embassy colleague did not know if this was decided on if Ambassadon Sondland was advocating fon it. AIso on Septemben 13th, following a meeting with Pnesident Zelensky and I nan in his pnivate office in which I took notes, Ambassadon Taylon into Mr. Yenmak on the way out. stnessed the importance When Ambassador of staying out of U.S. politics hoped no intenview was planned, Mn. Yenmak shnugged Taylor again and said he in nesignation and did not answen, as if to indicate he had no choice. In shont, evenyone thought thene was going to be an intenview and 31 that the Uknainians believed they ultimately did not had to do it. occun. 0n Septemben 21st, Ambassadon Taylon and he sent to Mn. Monnison Septemben 25th meeting in New York to bnief that on the mangins of July 25th call The intenview was released not seen a read-out of the Pnesident Tnump ahead had been scheduled of the U. I collaborated of on input a with Pnesident Zelensky N. Genenal Assemb1y. The tnanscnipt the same Septemben day. As of today, I stil1 have 25th meeting. As the cunnent impeachment inquiny has pnognessed, followed pness neponts and neviewed the statements of I have Ambassadon Taylon and Ambassadon Yovanovitch. Based on my expenience in Uknaine, my recoll-ection is genenally consistent with thein testimony, and I believe that the nelevant facts wene, thenefone, being laid out fon the Amenican people. Howeven, in the last week on so, I read pness neponts expnessing fon the finst time that centain senion officials may have been acting wlthout the Pnesident's knowledge in their dealings with Uknaine. At the same time, I also nead neponts noting the lack of finsthand evidence in the investigation and suggesting that the only evidence being elicited at the heanings was heansay. I came to nealize I had finsthand knowledge neganding centain events on June 26th that had not othenwise been neponted, and that those events potentially bone on the question of whethen the President did in fact have knowledge that those officials oun diplomatic powen to induce the new wene using the levens of Uknainian Pnesident to announce 32 the opening of a particulan criminal investigation. point that I I made the obsenvation to Ambassador Taylon that the incident had witnessed had acquined greaten neponted I manks in his testimony would It is at that eanlien significance, which is what this week. like to take a moment to tunn back to Uknaine. the sixth -- he marks 6 yeans since thnongs Next week of pro-Westenn Uknainians spontaneously gathened on Kyiv's Independence Square to launch what became known as the Revolution of Dignity. While the in opposition to a tunn towands Russia and away fnom the West, they expanded oven 3 months to neject the entine connupt, pnotests began nepnessive system that the Pnesident oversaw, his flight from Uknaine to and ultimately led to Russia. Those events were followed by Russia's occupation Cnimean Peninsula and adhered to the to Uknaine's the invasion of Uknaine's eastenn Donbas region, mastenminding an ensuing war Oven of that to date has cost almost L4TOOO 1ives. the past 5 yeans, they have rebuilt a shattered a peace process, and moved economically and West, towand oun way economy, socially closen of life. this yean, lange majonities of Ukrainians again chose a fnesh start by voting fon a political newcomen as Pnesident, neplacing Eanlien 80 percent of thein panliament, with our democratic values, and endonsing a platfonm consistent nefonm pnionities, and stnategic interests. This yean's revolution at the ballot box undenscones that, despite its imperfections, Uknaine is a genuine and vibnant democnacy 33 and an example to to othen post-Soviet countnies and beyond, fnom Moscow Hong Kong. to this histonic oppontunity will set the How we nespond tnajectony of our nelationship with Uknaine and oun position on cone pninciples centnal to oun vital national interests fon yeans to Uknainians want to hean a clean and unambiguous reaffinmation come. of oun longstanding bipantisan policy of stnong suppont fon Uknaine, that nemains unchanged, and it that we fully back it at the highest leve1s. Vice Pnesident Pence said aften his meeting with Pnesident Zelensky been to in Wansaw, quote, "the U.S.-Uknaine nelationship has stnonger." Uknainians and thein new govennment neven eannestly want believe that. Uknainians chenish thein bipantisan Amenican support sustained thein Euno-AtIantic aspinations, and they necoil thought of playing a nole in U.S. domestic politics that at has the on elections. At a time of shifting allegiances and rising competitors in the wor1d, we have no betten fniend than Uknaine, a scnappy, unbowed, detenmined, and above aII dignified people who ane standing up against Russian authonitarianism and aggnession. We ane now at an inflection point in Uknaine, and it is cnitical to oun national secunity that we stand in stnong suppont of oun Uknainian pantnens. Uknainians and fneedom-loving people evenywhene ane watching the example we Thank set of democnacy and nule of Iaw. you. I'm happy to answen questions. 34 THE CHAIRMAN: YCS. MR. MEADOWS: Having read this and undenstanding desine fon a U.S.-Ukraine nelationship, I would submit the witness' that the things in here could indeed be classified. And I would a point of infonmation, just caution the chainman to that we of just, as look at that all of us to hold this until you have a chance to do that and admonish so maybe some don't hanm diplomatic relations. investigation. I think we can look at that in a way. But I just, as a point of infonmation, would I don't think it'tI impede youn offen the caution. THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Meadows, this that I see I take And that is it, I don't agnee. Thene's nothing in even nemotely classified. MF. Holmes, you pnepaned this statement mindful of the necessity of pnoviding this in unclassified fonm. MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. THE CHAIRMAN: We'11 now majonity and -- oh,1 begin 45 minutes of questions fnom the houn, I'm sonny t houn -- and as you may know, we'11 altennate between both panties. Let me statement, I just go thnough a few of -- thene's so much in youn appneciate its compnehensive natune. I'm going thnough a few things befone methodically than I I allow counsel to do it to go much mone wi11. at the beginning of youn statement, because I didn't see this, whene you testified, Secnetany Pompeo stated last week, quote, I hope everyone who testifies will do so truthfully, I was intnigued 35 accunately, when they do the oversight nole and I think Amenica will come to will have been penfonmed, see what took place hene. Are you awane, Mn. Holmes, that Secnetany Pompeo has nefused to tunn oven a single document from the State Depantment? sir, I am awane of that. THE CHAIRMAN: I take it in his statement last week he didn't make any mention of how we could do oun ovensight nole if he continued to withhold all the documents? MR. HOLMES: This was from an intenview I saw in the pness, sin, so I don't know what the scope of his comments wene. MR. HOLMES: Yes, notes THE CHAIRMAN: Did you of some connect -- I think you mentioned that you had taken of the meetings and conversations you sat in. Is that ? MR. HOLMES: That's cornect. THE CHAIRMAN: Depantment Did you pnovide those notes to the State ? MR. HOLMES: I did. THE CHAIRMAN: You also testified that -- and this was a subject of testimony earlien today with Ambassadon Yovanovitch -- that hen effonts brought her into conflict with Prosecuton General Lutsenko. Is that night? MR. HOLMES: That's cornect, sin. THE CHAIRMAN: Lutsenko had independent anti-conruption nesisted fulIy empowering tnuly instltutions that would ensune Uknainians, however powenful, wene above the law. Was no that youn 36 te stimony ? MR. HOLMES: That's correct, sin. THE CHAIRMAN: Ambassador and I think you said, theneaften, howeven, the the Embassy kept pushing anti-connuption and othen pillans of oun policy towand Uknaine. Did Yovanovitch an advensary, that make Ambassadon at least as fan as Lutsenko was concenned? MR. HOLMES: Yes. THE CHAIRIvIAN: Subsequent to that, thene began a senies of effonts by Lutsenko to discnedit the Ambassadon? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. THE CHAIRMAN: He made against the a series of unsupponted false allegations Ambassador? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. including the false allegation that THE CHAIRMAN: And Ambassador Yovanovitch was using political Embassy to advance democnatic intenests? MR. HOLMES: Yes, THE CHAIRMAN: sir. ThAt wAS fAISC? MR. HOLMES: That THE the ' s fa1se. CHAIRMAN: Mn. Lutsenko, you also said, also claimed that the Embassy had pressuned fonmen Pnosecuton Genenal Shokin to engineer the closing of the case against fonmen Ministen of Ecology Zlochevsky because of the connection Pnesident Biden's that Lutsenko son. made? between his company Bunisma and fonmer Vice Was that one of the othen false allegations 37 MR. HOLMES: So those events happened befone my annival in that, and my countenpants at the Embassy at the time believed those to be false. THE CHAIRMAN: You went on to say that: We leanned that Vice Uknaine, but Lutsenko did alIege President Pence no longen planned to lead the Presidential delegation to the inaugunation. Was it initially thenefone, was going youn undenstanding list of potential initially quite a long list. memben a of that delegation. likely to be Pnesident, to go to the inaugunation? MR. HOLMES: We had gone back and pnoposing that the Vice NSC staff of the delegation. It membens We had asked who would be We wene that to about was the senion told that Vice President Pence was that senion memben, it so we wene anticipating fonth with was fuIly agneed to. not yet the case. And And then the Giuliani event happened, and then we heard that he was not going to play that be nole. THE CHAIRMAN: So what about is the Giuliani event you'ne talking ? MR. HOLMES: That was THE CHAIRMAN: Was MR. HOLMES: was in saying tnip that the intenview whene he -- That's The NewYork Times, that night. Yeah, so he had there was he had planned -- he gave an so I believe it interview basically to tnaveL to Uknaine, but he canceled his because thene wene, quote, unquote, enemies in Zelensky's onbit. -- of the U.5. Pnesident 38 THE CHAIRMAN: So Rudy Giuliani plans this tnip to Uknaine, and I think you said publicly in that anticle that he was thene to meddle in investigations, not meddle in elections, but to meddle in investigations, and that was his night, something along those lines? I actually don't necal] the details of that anticle, I haven't nefenned back to it since I nead it the finst time. But he MR. HOLMES: gave a numben of of intenviews oven time what he was saying his intent whene I believe that was the upshot was. this came to the public's attention and there was pushback. And I think he blamed people -- blamed Democrats on people in Uknaine for him having to scuttle the tnip. Is that night? THE CHAIRMAN: And he was MR. H0LMES: when he Yes. We fnustnated when had theonies about who he was refenning to said enemies, and these wene people, you know, who had supponted Zelensky's campaign. to this Giuliani event, the Vice had at least been planning to attend the inaugunation? THE CHAIRMAN: So Pnesident MR. HOLMES: who wene making pnion That's my understanding fnom colleagues at the NSC the preparations fon that delegation. THE CHAIRMAN: Wene you awane that the Pnesident ultimately told the Vice Pnesident not to go to the inaugunation? MR. HOLMES: I'm THE CHAIRMAN: not awane of that. But he had been planning to go -- you ane awane that he had been planning to go up until the Giuliani incident? MR. HOLMES: I want to be veny clean, sin. Qun understanding was 39 that thene was -- the discussion wene asking told the us he was NSC staff who was was -- let pnecise. me be veny 1ike1y to lead the delegation. They lead the delegation, but a final decision likely to not yet been made. That's what we wene THE CHAIRMAN: We've had hotels fon the Vice Pnesident. We awane had of. othen testimony about looking into None of that is inconsistent with what you obsenved? I don't know if we'd gotten to the point of booking hotels, I'm not sune of that, sin. THE CHAIRMAN: You then went on to say that Secnetany Perry, Ambassador Sondland, and Ambassadon Volken, the Three Amigos, made it MR. HOLMES: clean they would take the lead on coondinating policy and engagement with the Zelensky administnation. About when was that? MR. H0LMES: So was when they by Secnetany came Penny. And fon the encountened them as a group -- Ied they wene in pnepanatony meetings at the hotel wene discussing how can we work responsibilities, agenda finst time that I fon the Presidential inaugunal delegation with the monning of, they the policy, the this, togethen, how can we divvy how can we, you know new Zelensky about how can we coondinate -- up how can we come up administnation. And each of with them an had contnibutions to that. THE CHAIRMAN: But you mentioned in your testimony that they were going to take the lead on coondinating policy and engagement with the Zelensky administnation. MR. HOLMES: That ' Is that night? s connect. 40 THE CHAIRMAN: And that would have been immediately on almost immediately aften the inauguration? MR. HOLMES: That was the same day that the day of the inaugunation, on May 20th, Ambassador Yovanovitch depanted post. THE CHAIRMAN: So the same day that Yovanovitch is litenally recalled, there's a new team put in place to be the liaison with the that's the Thnee Amigos? The decision to recalI hen happened prion to Zelensky administnation, and MR. HOLMES: the 2?th, but that was the day she got on a plane. THE CHAIRMAN: You know, you that a -- that it's impontant that mention in youn wnitten testimony we undenstand that a White visit was cnitical to President Zelensky. He needed U.S. suppont at the highest levels, both to anti-connuption agenda at home and House it to demonstnate advance his ambitious to encounage Russian Pnesident Putin to take seniously Pnesident Zelensky'S peace effonts. Can you expand on that? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. THE CHAIRMAN: I think the public has an undenstanding of why is important. They may have a lessen undenstanding why diplomatic suppont is impontant. militany aid MR. HOLMES: of SUNC. THE CHAIRMAN: Why was this White House meeting so impontant to Zelens ky ? MR. HOLMES: Sune. First of all, I'1I state the fact that the Zelensky team wene adamant that it was important. So we heard that 47 that it absolutely was cnitical fon them fon Zelensky to get the impnimatun of the U.S. President to indicate that the United States would continue to suppont Uknaine and his administnation, at least as it had done with the pnion administnation, fon the past 5 years. So they wene clean that was in fnom them eveny intenaction to them. Why, in general, is a meeting with the U.S. Pnesident important fon the Pnesident of Uknaine to advance both the domestic agenda and impontant the peace process? Thene's two sepanate So on the domestic agenda, the United States has cnedibility in Uknaine. The fonmer Foneign I answers. mean, thene They negand us as Ministen, you know, said tnemendous thein critical pantnen. we wene bnothens is a veny stnong feeling of coopenation and in anms. the impontance the United States plays with nespect to Uknaine and its aspinations. So to have the, like I said, the the most powenful is backing them to them. So man in in the wonld, including able to the head of the govennment that that's veny, veny impontant to signal to the people that Pnesident Zelensky was able to get the suppont of the United States at a time and and what they are doing, that's cnitical to Uknainian impnimatun of the U.S. Pnesident, some command them domestically, when the Uknainian people wene wondening, of Zelensky's opponents, wene wondening if he'd be the same level of suppont that his pnedecesson had. critical fon him to addness the anti-connuption agenda at home, which was going to nequine passing a 1ot of veny And that was 42 difficult laws and very, very deep nefonms that wene to signal the United him in that nefonm effort, including contnoversial and difficult. States was supponting politically And so he needed anti-conruption nefonms that have since gone beyond the pnion administnation in significant The othen side of the ledger is Uknaine's foreign policy conflict with Russia. I Uknaine. ways. My expenience senved in and its Russia fon 3 yeans befone going to then and since, and in talking with analysts on Russia, the consensus view is that Pnesident Putin doesn't take a lot of things seniously unless the Pnesident of the United States does. He wants to be seen on -- aS a peen, on level with the United States in terms of globa1 affains. It's certainly the case in Uknaine. A 1ot of the effonts the Uknainians make, fnankly, the Russians don't need to pay attention to unless othen countnies that they need to contend with think that those effonts ane impontant. So Zelensky came wnap up -- came into office -- into office to kind of lean in sonny pnomising on peace, and in to orden for the long punsue to do a peace process that he needed to that he had the United States' backing, that even if peace, that our security assistance and our answer, I'11 and show he took nisks on political backing of his effonts was sound. THE CHAIRMAN: So undenstanding that it's this wasn't just kind of the intangible impontant to world leadens generically to have a meeting with the U.S. Pnesident. The Ukrainians conveyed multiple 43 times just how impontant this was to MR. HOLMES: That's connect. It them? was veny impontant to them, and also in thein particulan cincumstances with nespect to Russia. THE CHAIRMAN: And given the impontance to Uknaine of this meeting, did that give levenage to the United States oven the Pnesident of the Uknaine? MR. HOLMES: They nea}ly wanted the meeting. I think you mentioned also in youn testimony, and you just talked about how impontant it was fon Uknaine to have this THE CHAIRMAN: meeting vis-a-vis thein domestic audience, but also vis-a-vis their advensany the Russians. MR. HOLMES: That THE CHAIRMAN: ' s night . That it was a set back to Ukraine that the Pnesident wouldn't meet with Zelensky, but he would meet with Putin. That meeting would come finst. Is that night? MR. HOLMES: That ' s connect. THE CHAIRMAN: And did that make the pness in Uknaine? MR. HOLMES: Yes. THE CHAIRMAN: You'ne smiling because that must be an undenstatement. Yes. In panticulan, the Pnesident canceled his with Putin at the last minute when the Russians seized MR. HOLMES: pnion meeting two Uknainian naval vessels on Novemben 25th of last yean and detained thein cnews. That was seen as a very stnong signal of suppont fon that iIIega1 Russian action. 44 When the President was going to next time, the Uknainians asked us meet in stnong tenms, if the President is going to meet him, could he at least detained cnew And to membens who nemained -- I'm not sure if my Putin -- Pnesident Putin this in please naise the issue of oun Russian he did on captivity at that not, but it was time? a veny in Uknaine at the time that these cnew membens wene by Russia, in Russian jaiIs, and the Pnesident had impontant issue still detained canceled his last meeting over him without nesolving to meet did, he did, you neven found out whethen he naise that with Putin? MR. HOLMES: I don't know. I don't THE CHAIRMAN: You mentioned guess he was choosing that issue. THE CHAIRMAN: And in fact, that issue, but know. that in the week leading up to, I this would have been the event in Bnussels, Ambassadon Sondland, Secretany Penry, and Secnetany Penny's staff taking a veny active wene in fonmulating our pnionities fon the new Zelensky administnation and pensonally neaching out to Pnesident and unconventional nole Zelensky and his senion team. unconventional tenms of did you mean by that being ? MR. HOLMES: in tnlhat Yeah. Secnetany Perny's staff was veny aggressive pnomoting an agenda and excluding Embassy pensonnel fnom meetings without giving explanations. We'd ask what, you know, they plan to instance, these pnepanatory sessions. They would say, we want to say this. say in the meetings, fon 45 And we'd say, why would you say nationale. And Can you it not -- they explain to us? they was clean that? We knew what We don't can discuss this. they wanted to it. I'm not an expent in the enengy issues, but it wene undenstand youn do and wene not giving us explanations fon was an unusuaL interaction between the Embassy and staff. THE CHAIRMAN: Did any of those intenactions involve a Texas oil company? MR. HOLMES: There was Secnetany Penny handed a the -- sont of what I testified to, that Iist of tnusted individuals to Pnesident Zelensky fnom whom he could take advice on enengy sector refonm. didn't see the list. I I heand thene wene some individuals who wene I also wasn 't in the meetings with his staff on enengy issues, it was just not my anea of expentise. involved with enengy issues in Texas. But I should also add, sin, you asked about the staff and the membens. that point on, you know, they wene getting business cands and WhatsApping and sending messages and things like that dinectly to the pnincipals. Oftentimes those things would involve the Embassy in some Fnom way so we had same visibillty pnincipals on what policies who we would see on we wene advancing with those a negulan basis, and we wenen't getting that. THE CHAIRMAN: So these individuals, at least two of the Thnee text messages in a way that left the tnaditional Embassy staff out of the loop? Amigos, wene communicating with WhatsApp and MR. HOLMES: We wene in the loop on some things, but we suspected we were out of the loop on other things. 46 47 l5:t2 p.m.l THE CHAIRMAN: You Ambassadon Taylon in Taylor shaned with make mentioned on June 27 Ambassadon Sondland a phone convensation, the me told gist of which Ambassador at the time, that Pnesident Zelensky needed to clean to Pnesident Trump that Pnesident Zelensky was not standing in the way of investigations. I to the undenstood Bunisma/Biden investigations associates had been speaking about Why was that that this Mn. was nefenning Giuliani and his in the media since Manch. that youn undenstanding? this was a veny unusuaL peniod fnom Manch. As I said -- testified, I'd neven seen anything like it in my caneen. It was a constant dnumbeat of media, pness anticles, tweets, news show MR. HOLMES: So appeanances by people who ofwhom at least I've who wene, come I wasn't familiar with pneviously, but some to nealize were associates ofMn. Giuliani, in various ways, advancing thnee on foun different nannatives in all these diffenent beginning of engagements, all of which stanted at the Manch and continued thnough Ambassador Yovanovitch's nemovaL. And one And so, that of those nannatives was the Bunisma/Biden investigation. was the only specific investigation that we wene typically, in the Embassy, don't talk about specific investigations on panticular cases; we talk about building nule of 1aw and anticonnuption institutions, justice institutions that follow the facts and the allegations as they judge fit. discussing. We THE CHAIRMAN: You mentioned as a nesult of a convensation you 48 had with Taylor on June 28th, it was made clean that Ambassadon was a pnecondition action on a Burisma/Biden investigation Office meeting. occun, We became concenned it could -- it fon an Ova1 that even if a meeting would not go we11, and I some could discussed with Embassy colleagues whether we should stop seeking a meeting altogethen. That's pnetty extnaondinany, given what you knew about the importance to Pnesident Zelensky about having that White House meeting. t^thy did you even ententain the idea that maybe you should pnevent this meeting fnom happening? MR. HOLMES: The impontance of the meeting was langely signaling to Zelensky's domestic audience and to his foneign advensanies. A bad meeting would be wonse than no meeting. And we did not yet have that -- that thene was an intenest in having a positive intenaction with Zelensky that would send that signal. confidence THE CHAIRMAN: Wene you concenned in which the Pnesident pnessed Zelensky that you might get a bad meeting to do the Biden investigation? MR. HOLMES: Possibly. THE CHAIRMAN: And when neleased on Septemben 25th, did you saw the call recond when it was that confinm your wonst fear about what might have a happened in a pensonal meeting? MR. HOLMES: I was disappointed to see that naised. in your wnitten testimony about a meeting with Andriy Bohdan, the chief of staff of Pnesident Zelensky. The meeting was bnief, you said, but he did say that Pnesident Tnump had expnessed interest during the pnevious day's phone call in THE CHAIRMAN: You mentioned 49 Pnesident Zelensky's personnel decisions nelating genenal's office. MR. HOLMES: What to the did you undenstand that to I didn't it undenstand pnosecuton mean? it. when he naised He was 1itenal1y standing up. He said the Pnesident has calIed me, I to go. have He expnessed some this in intenest in these pensonnel decisions. I my notes. And then he said, I have thnee questions fon asking us about individuals f've since come to you. And he stanted undenstand they wene considening appointing to diffenent noles in the PGO. I have It wasn't until call transcnipt that I nealized that the had mentioned Mn. Lutsenko in that call. read the July 25th phone Pnesident THE CHAIRMAN: And at that time of that ca11, Lutsenko was still the pnosecuton general? MR. HOLMES: to agnee -- has Yes. So in the Ukrainian system, the Panliament has to approve the nesignation on the fining of a pnosecuton genenal. Zelensky was elected, but thene wene sevenal months that went by until the parliamentany elections and then whene he then acquined the panliament would begin to a position to actually the mandate meet whene then he would be in make pensonnel changes. of 2 or 3 months whene a lot of Uknainians wene hoping Lutsenko would just go, but he held on until Zelensky won So thene was a period this -- his ovenall panliamentany majority, to make new appointments. And then pnion he was considen -- and was then in a position to that, you know, Zelensky had told us pnivately who he was considening neplacing Lutsenko with and 50 then did do. So thene wene convensations about this, but he wasn't in a position to actually nemove him fnom office until laten. THE CHAIRMAN: Was Lutsenko, during this peniod, still tnying to angle to keep his job? MR. HOLMES: I believe so, THE CHAIRMAN: And was potential Yes. pant of his angling to sunvive the election, change befone the and the change once the took place, was pant of the stnategy appealing to Donald Tnump by pushing out these the election Giuliani and false theonies about the Bidens and Rudy 2016 election? MR. HOLMES: I believe that's the THE CHAIRMAN: The case. delegation you said then met with Pnesident Zelensky and sevenal othen senion officials. Which delegation ane you refenning to thene? MR. HOLMES: I'm sonny, whene ane THE CHAIRMAN: Page MR. HOLMES: pensonally you, sin? Which 5 of youn wnitten testimony. Yes. You know, I don't necall who else -- I was in the meeting with President Zelensky, but they had annanged othen meetings. THE CHAIRMAN: And who was MR. HOLMES: So delegation. I it Penny, the people I this is -- this is So Secretany THE CHAIRMAN: thene on the American side? was the inaugural mentioned befone. SCE. MR. HOLMES: ThC fiVC. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. During the meeting, you said Pnesident 51 Zelensky stated that duning the July 25th call, Pnesident Tnump had thnee times naised some very sensitive issues and that he would have to foIlow Now up on those issues when they met having nead the call in penson. necond, do you undenstand what he meant by the veny sensitive issues he had naised thnee times? MR. HOLMES: Thene wene in that call, naised and THE CHAIRMAN: And only a couple issues that the President so, I assume those ane the issues he meant. those involve the investigations that the President wanted Zelensky to do? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. THE CHAIRMAN: So up with those issues impont Zelensky hene when he is saying he'11 have to foIlow gets his White House meeting, is that the ? MR. H0LMES: Yes, sin. THE CHAIRMAN: So Zelensky is communicating that he wants this meeting, and if the Pnesident wants to talk funthen about this, he needs to give him the meeting. fs that night? MR. HOLMES: I think that's a reasonable intenpnetation. THE CHAIRMAN: 0n page 6, you mentioned how you wene excluded fnom the meeting between Ambassadon Sondland and Mn. Yenmak, and waited outside with a memben of Ambassadon Sondland's a memben of Ambassadon Sondland's staff that staff. that you Was thene accompanied him on most of the Uknaine tnips? of his staff on this tnip. I practice -- I don't necaLl- if he had a staff MR. HOLMES: Thene was don't know if his standand a memben 52 memben accompany him on his othen THE CHAIRMAN: Do MR. HOLMES: mission Hen name Let THE CHAIRMAN: at the nestaunant. that staff memben was? is me move ahead to the call that you overheand You said Ambassadon Sondland placed this call on phone? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. THE CHAIRMAN: of that you recalI who Yes. It's a State Depantment officen in the U.S. to the EU. his mobile tnips. I don't recall. Did that cause you any concenn about the secunity phone call? MR. HOLMES: It was sunpnising to me that he -- yes. In my expenience, generally, phone ca11s with the Pnesident ane veny sensitive and handled accondingly. THE CHAIRMAN: And.making a cell phone call fnom Uknaine, is there a risk of Russians listening in? MR. HOLMES: I believe at least two of the thnee, if not a11 thnee of the mobile netwonks ane owned by Russian companies, or have significant stakes in those. We genenally assume that mobile communications in Uknaine ane being monitored. THE CHAIRMAN: And, in fact, Ambassadon Nuland's communications at one point had been monitoned and neleased for political effect? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. THE CHAIRMAN: So ownenship of the thene was not only the concenn with the telecommunication companies, but past pnactice? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. 53 you said the Pnesident's voice was loud THE CHAIRMAN: Now, and necognizable, and Ambassadon Sondland held the phone away fnom his head. Is that night? MR. HOLMES: on, and then Yes, sin. He sont of was waiting fon him to on, he sont of winced when he came the finst couple exchanges. sonny. THE CHAIRMAN: He moved MR. H0LMES: because cal1, He sont his like that fon -- the neponten can't THE CHAIRMAN: Now, MR. HOLMES: I'm then And and went come of necond that. winced head away fnom the phone? -- winced and then moved the phone away fnom his ean, the volume was 1oud, and then -- fon the finst pontion of the and then he stopped doing that. I don't know if he tunned the if the penson, the Pnesident, I believe, on the other line modenated his volume. I don't know what happened, but fon the finst part, he was pulling it away fnom his head. volume down on got used to it you heand Ambassador Sondland greet the THE CHAIRMAN: And Pnesident and say he was fnom Kyiv, and then you could hean Ambassadon SondLand was, in Ukraine? MR. HOLMES: Yeah. Yes. THE CHAIRIvIAN: And Sondland went on meaning calling to clarify that Pnesident Tnump wanting fact, in on to You mean, Uknaine? Yes, Uknaine. then you said Pnesident Zelensky on Ambassadon say that "Pnesident Zelensky loves that he loves the youn ass, " Pnesident? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. THE CHAIRMAN: And then you could hean Pnesident Tnump say, so s4 he's going to do the investigation? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sir. THE CHAIRMAN: And Sondland MR. HOLMES: THE Yes. He neplied, He's going to do it? said, 0h yeah, he's going to do it. CHAIRMAN: And then he went on to say, Pnesident Zelensky will do anything you ask him to? MR. HOLMES: YCS. THE CHAIRMAN: And those ane the wonds you heand, to the best of your necollection? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. I think you said you have quite a clean recollection of that. It left an impnession on you, did it? THE CHAIRMAN: MR. HOLMES: And, you know, This was an extnemely distinctive expenience in Foreign Senvice caneen. I've neven seen anything like this, my someone calling the Pnesident fnom a mobile phone at a restaunant, and then of this leve1 of candon, colonful language. There's just so much about the call that was so nemankable that I having a convensation nememben it vividly. THE CHAIRMAN: nappen, but Iet I won't go thnough the convensation me ask you about aften the you can neca11 about the Ukraine pontion MR. HOLMES: It was veny descnibed it, bnief. It about the calI ended. Anything else of the convensation? was thnee sentences on whateven. It exactly as was I have -- and then it was immediately, what about Sweden and then the nappen portion. THE CHAIRMAN: So the call ends. You'ne still at the restaunant. 55 You take the oppontunity to ask Ambassadon Sondland impnession of the President's views on Uknaine and, ask him, fon his candid in panticulan, is it tnue the Pnesident doesn't give a shit you about Uknaine? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. to believe that the Pnesident Uknaine? That's an intenesting way to stant THE CHAIRMAN: Now, didn't give a shit about what 1ed you a question asking fon feedback. MR. HOLMES: Yeah. I'm not pnoud of infonmal tone of the lunch and the language my I language. But the had heand him using in just sont of, you know, two guys oven lunch talking about stuff, and it seemed to me that was the kind his call with the President, of we wene that he used. And so I was -- I, at that point, believed that it language had been very difficult fon us to get the Pnesident intenested in what we wene tnying to do in Uknaine. Those ane the wonds I chose. THE CHAIRMAN: And Sondland agneed with you that the did not give a shit about Uknaine. So his Pnesident doesn't give a MR. HOLMES: My shit answen was Pnesident to you, the about Uknaine? recollection, he said, Nope, not at all, doesn't give a shit about Uknaine. THE CHAIRMAN: And you asked him why not, and what did the Pnesident say? MR. HOLMES: SondTand? THE CHAIRMAN: MR. HOLMES: I'm sonny. Yeah. He What did Ambassadon Sondland say? said, he only cares about big things. 56 Big things on big stuff? THE CHAIRMAN: MR. HOLMES: Big things. Big stuff. THE CHAIRMAN: And Big. you noted that thene was big stuff going on in Ukraine, like a wan with Russia? MR. HOLMES: Yes. THE CHAIRMAN: And what MR. HOLMES: He Biden investigation THE did Ambassador Sondland say in neply? said, no, big stuff that mattens to him, like this that Giuliani is pushing. CHAIRMAN: So Ambassador Sondland conveyed that the big stuff the Pnesident cared about was stuff that benefited the Pnesident, like the investigation into the Bidens? MR. HOLMES: That was my undenstanding, yes. THE CHAIRMAN: And then aften that, the convensation moved in othen dinections? MR. HOLMES: YCS. THE CHAIRIvIAN: When you netunned to the Embassy, you told the of Mission about this convensation? MR. HOLMES: Yes. So she's my dinect supervison. THE CHAIRMAN: And who is youn Deputy Chief of Mission? Deputy Chief MR. HOLMES: THE Knistina Kvien, K-v-i-e-n. CHAIRMAN: And how much detail did you go into with the Deputy Chief of Mission? I believe I told hen the whole thing. I said, You'ne not going to believe what I just heand, and then I just went through -- eveny element of this was extnaondinary. MR. HOLMES: 57 THE CHAIRMAN: What was hen neaction? the one hand, she was shocked, as I was, MR. HOLMES: You know, on that that just happened. It was pnetty exceptional. She thought of it, I think, she -- confinmed some of the things we thought wene the case, as I said, because fon months, we'd been heaning about things like the Biden investigation and having of it pants wene funny. Pants tnouble tnying to get traction on the meetings we wene seeking. it had a ning of tnuth to it. I got. THE CHAIRMAN: Bolton you necommends testified that Let to So So that was the kind of reaction that timeline. Aften that he send a cable to Pompeo, I think me now move Taylon you helped funthen on the in the drafting and tnansmission of the cable? MR. HOLMES: Yes, out in the sin. Eveny cable that an Embassy sends goes of the Chief of Mission, has Taylon at the bottom. Oftentimes, the Chief of Mission will give guidance on what to wnite, or will dnaft portions themselves and nequest that a staff penson make name the anguments. And then they would then clean the cab1e, signaling they'ne comfontable with it befone we would then tnansmit it. that's what we did in that THE CHAIRMAN: And MR. HOLMES: So And case. what was the gist of the cable that you sent? I'm going to be veny oblique, because that was a classified cable. to I undenstand, sin. It THE CHAIRMAN: MR. HOLMES: Yes, and we want keep was this all unclassified. anticulating oun view of 58 the impontance of Uknaine to oun national secunity, and the importance of the secunity assistance to Ukraine. THE CHAIRMAN: You testified that duning this time we wene still tnying to appeal to Pnesident secunity tenms. Was this is why it THE CHAIRIvIAN: my in foreign policy and national the cable atong those lines? MR. HOLMES: Yes, tenms, Tnump sir. I believe it said: In foreign policy mattens. But you also go on say: to By this polnt, however, clean impression was that the secunity assistance hold was 1ikely intended by the Pnesident eithen to expness dissatisfaction that the Uknainians had not yet agneed to the Bunisma/Biden investigations, on as an effort to incnease the pnessune on them to do so. Why was for why there that youn impressi.on, youn clean impnession? MR. HOLMES: We had no othen explanation was disintenest in this meeting that the Pnesident had already offened. He didn't offen a date yet oven the counse of of evenyone to tny to And then you had months, despite effonts schedule that. the additional hold of the secunity assistance with no exptanation whatsoeven, and we still don't have an explanation fon why that happened or in the woy, as I understand way that it happened, an unconventional it. THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Mulvaney gave an explanation. MR. HOLMES: HC did. I just mention, the witness is often giving nonverbal nesponses. If he could just anticulate his nesponse. MR. MALONEY: Can 59 MR. HOLMES: I'm sorny. THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Mulvaney gave one MR. HOLMES: I saw THE he? his comments in the pness, yes. CHAIRMAN: You then on page 8 about a demand explanation, didn't talk about in youn testimony funthen down that Pnesident Zelensky pensonally commit to a specific investigation of Pnesident Tnump's political nival on a cable news channel. Have you even seen anything like that? MR. H0LMES: No, sir. THE CHAIRMAN: And even to the White House and Congness launching an investigation and the aid finally being lifted, you were complaint and still it concerned with the CNN making its aften the filing of the whistleblowen that Zelensky way was going to feel compelled to go fonward intenview? MR. HOLMES: Yes. Some of these things wene happening -- and, again, time diffenence in Uknaine. These things ane happening on, as I necall it, the 11th, 12th, potentially 13th. That a lot of things wene happening at the same time. It wasn't clean to us whowas talking to whom when. It wasn't clean to us of these things. So when the Uknainians heand some there was a bit of a mangin of ennon on who knew what when. it also occunred to us potentially that the hold might have -- this is a theony -- might have been lifted -- on we wonnied that the hold was lifted aften Zelensky potentially gave a commitment to do the intenview. And I included some testimony, some evidence that And might have pointed ln that dinectlon. 60 THE CHAIRMAN: So you wene concenned made the that Zelensky had already commitment MR. HOLMES: THE YCS. CHAIRMAN: in orden to get the aid. MR. HOLMES: YES. THE CHAIRMAN: Get the meeting. MR. HOLMES: YCS. THE CHAIRMAN: And then the stony blew up with the whistleblower complaint, and the aid's neleased. MR. HOLMES: YCS. THE CHAIRMAN: And the question was, does Zelensky still have to follow through with what may have been committed? is conrect, sin. I'm going to yield now to MR. HOLMES: That THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Noble. MR. NOBLE: Thank you, Mn. Chainman. BY MR. NOBLE: a Mn. Holmes, I want to ask you a few follow-up questions, based on the line of questioning from the chainman, but finst I want to make sure I undenstand. A lot ofyour quotation veny detailed opening nemarks ane based manks. A Uh-huh. a Again, those ane quotes that you eithen took, based on youn notes on youn necollection as to what people actually night -- include ? said. Is that 61 A a Yes. And did you use youn notes that you laten tunned over to the State Depantment to help pnepare this opening statement? A I did, yes. a You said in your opening statement that you nead the of the deposition Yovanovitch. Is that night? A Yes, sir. tnanscnipts a A testimony of Ambassadons Taylor and Did you also nead Ambassadon Sondland's testimony? So some things I nead I sat down with the testimony Ambassadon I can't say fon sune that itself or the statement. I nead in the news. Yovanovitch, Ambassadon Taylon's deposition opening I nead those veny canefully fon a sense of, as I said, whethen what I knew or my expenience, that stony was generally getting to1d. And then othen witnesses, I just sont of nead it in the news. statements. a Wel1, to youn point, in tenms of getting your stony toId, was it your assumption that Ambassadon Sondland would have told Congness about these convensations, including his July 26 phone call with President Tnump at the restaunant? A I would think so, especially if asked. I would suspect that he would mention that. a I mean, I wonden if that I Ambassador Sondland would have nelayed mean, did you think that these communications with Pnesident Tnump, given that they'ne obviously nelevant to the inquiny? Is that why you thought, like, the infonmation you had would have been 62 redundant to Ambassadon Sondland's testimony? A I won't to what Ambassadon Sondland thought was impontant on not to share. I don't know. My process was, you know, as I've testified, I've been involved in this in some way all the way thnough. And I was some of the finst testimony to come out wene speak that chapter, Ambassadon Yovanovitch fnom fnom that chapten, and I read and then Ambassadon Taylon it to see if largely what I knew was getting out. And every day I was waking uP, impeachment befone, but need? I out, I had I've neven been thnough an thinking is thene something this question eveny day. was neasonably confident And as I that what I saw I have that people the testimony coming knew was getting out, as I said, until laten when it became appanent that this one issue -- maybe othen things, too -- wene panticulanly genmane. a And what, again, was it about this panticular phone call on JuLy 26 that you thought was so impontant to tell Ambassadon Taylon about, again? A So at the time, it was confirming things that many people suspected. And so we took that and learned lessons from it, and I I said, as we know, he doesn't neally cane about Uknaine. It's going to be a tough noad to convince him. neferned to it laten in meetings. this investigation and, you don't get involved in politics, so thene's nothing we can do And, you know, he does seem know, we to cane about about that. So we talked about this nepeatedly and -- but, you know, for me, 63 in the end, as I saw the stony coming out and then stanted heaning that thene was not a lot of finsthand information, plus the notion that these thnee been officials that wene close officials to the Pnesident may have acting without his knowledge on fneelancing. I think I've heard vanious descniptions. It seemed to then, in retnospect, that this event me was finsthand of those people with dinect contact to the President, whene they explicitly mentioned one of the things that was at issue. So it just -- wheneas I took it as an indication we wene kind of night what and one we'ne thinking was going on; in netnospect, it seemed like it was more cnitical. Sticking with the July a I just 26 call between Sondland and Pnesident to ask you a few mone questions about youn recollection of that call. And backing up., right befone the ca1l, Ambassadon Sondland Tnump, want with Andney Yenmak. Did he even te11 you what that meeting? A He a But you were told by an aide they discussed duning didn't. Sondland sald he it to met to Mn. Yenmak that didn't want notes taken of that meeting Ambassadon and he wanted be a one-on-one? A He wanted it to be a one-on-one. And when I said, I'm the note taker and Embassy nepnesentative, they said they don't want anyone else in the meeting. a And then the lunch that you then went to, do you neca11 about 64 of day you went to lunch? A Yes. So the -- I believe 1 to 2 P.ffi., in that anea. I what time believe the Zelensky meeting ended at noon and then we had the meeting, and then So roughly 1 a lunch we dnove Yenmak to the nestaunant, which wasn't too fan away. to 2 p.n. that two othen staffens And you said accompanied you to the ? A a Yes. Can you please A Yeah. One Ambassador Sondland at oun mission to the Eunopean Union. that day was the with a And the , who is in the , the last name is economics section a , the staffen to is othen is who wonks identify those people? at the Embassy in Kyiv, who's the enengy expent, Embassy's contnol visitor and annanges officer, and call it, the person as we thein schedule and thein meetings. okay. A a Thank you. Do you know which, on what type of cel1 phone Ambassador Sondland used? A a him No, I don't. Did you obsenve whethen he had one on mone cell phones on at the time? A I only saw him using one at a time. a So he had multiple cell phones? A I don't -- he could have been using diffenent ones one at 65 a time, but I only saw him using one at a time. I see. a And about how Ambassadon Sondland duning Tnump away wene you this convensation fnom between him and Pnesident was dinectly in fnont of him. The settings, kind of a nunnen between them. his plate widen sitting ? A I two fan was hene. about. It Maybe about the same as was cl-ose enough we were table And so my was set up with plate was hene, this tab1e, maybe slightly sont of shaning an appetizer togethen. a Cou1d you descnibe fon the reponter? A I'm sonny, this is difficult. THE CHAIRMAN: You'ne indicating -- I don't want to estimate measurements of the table. We I was dinectly in fnont of him. MR. NOBLE: He was a couple feet -THE CHAIRMAN: He was on the othen side of a table that is noughly MR. HOLMES: what, 3 feet wide? 2 feet wide? MR. HOLMES: for It sounds about night. A nonmal dinnen-size table two. THE CHAIRMAN: MR. HOLMES: anothen Table fon two, okay. It felt to me like thene wene a table fon two table fon two pushed togethen. It may have been that it and was a double-wide table. BY MR. NOBLE: a And can you pnovide any mone details about how Ambassadon 66 Sondland went about connecting like You said it sounded he was being nelayed thnough sevenal switchboands, on can you provide any A mone He was of, just details about that? stanting a caI1, and he kind of said, I'm going to call the Pnesident kind to Pnesident Tnump? and give an update. And he was waiting and he was, expnessing, kind of, fon the Pnesident, and then impatience as he'd say, Gondon Sondland someone else would come on, and I'm waiting I don't know who he was getting tnansferned to, but he was -- I believe hd said something like, Oh, it's always so hard to neach him, like that kind of thing. a Did he just place one call on did he have to place multiple fon the Pnesident. And as he got tnansfenned, calls in A a onden to -- One calI. One ca1I, okay. Do you know whethen he used connect to the Pnesident A I don't the State openations switchboand to on which switchboand he was using? know. a Do you neca1l about how long the call lasted, the dunation? A It was not long. That Ukraine pontion was thnee or foun sentences, pretty quick, and they veny quickly tunned to the Sweden bit. It's exactly as I nelayed it. At that point, I pulled out my phone. Evenyone was checking thein phones occasionally, checking emails. I was able to pu11 out my -- I realized that the call was significant. I pulled out point and I opened a note and I took notes of the my phone Sweden at that pontion. I 67 was a little slow getting it out. a Okay. But did you take notes on the portion about Uknaine? A I didn't. It was so quick and up front, and that's when I nealized how significant it was. By the time I got it out, he moved on. a oven And did you tunn that note nelating to the to the State Depantment? A Yeah. So I -- Ambassadon Sondland and was Sweden pontion staying. the Embassy. when I node with the two staffers back to the Hyatt They stayed When I -- aften the 1unch, I whene he with him, and I peeled off and went back to annived back to the Embassy, I opened that note, it into an email, which I sent to oun Deputy Chief of Mission in Stockholm so she had it. So that email with the notes that I took is in the neconds. a And about how long fnom Ambassadon Sondland dialing to when pasted he hung up with President Tnump was the call? A It was shont, a couple minutes. a Duning the call, you said you ovenheand the wond "investigation" on "investigations" -- A Yes. a -- mentioned by Pnesident Tnump. Is that night? A Yes. a At the time, did you undenstand what investigations the Pnesident was nefenning to? A Yeah. It's the same answen you asked befone. I mean, that 58 was the investigation that had been in the media fon I was awane people wene some talking about. It time. I was heaning, as I've testified at vanious stages, about this investigation being of impontance to the Pnesident, and so that's what I assumed he meant. a In youn statement, yoU said that you told the Deputy Chief of Mission about the call aften it occunned. Did you te11 anyone else about the call contemponaneously? A Yeah. So I went back to the Embassy, and I had a 1ot of wonk to do. I had to wnite up the Bohdan meeting, the Zelensky meeting. I had a fuII aftennoon of wonk to do. And so I went back to the Embassy and I went to the political section, and I nan into the Deputy Chief of Mission. And I said, Great, glad you'ne hene, I have something I nea1ly need to bnief up to you. And I walked her thnough the ca1l. And then I necall 1ike, fnankly, telling this stony to almost anyone I encountened, because it was so nemankable. I don't exactly necalI who those othen nememben it was individuals were. And pant of the the Deputy Chief of Mission is neason because she's supenvison. And thene wene thnee people, three people that I I my would to pass that on to. Those thnee people are my deputy in the political section, so that if I'm not anound, she knows what's going on. And yeah, I was about to go on vacation. want a Who is that? A , Ambassadon Taylon. my deputy; Knistina Kvien, my supenvison; Two and of those three people wene on the fnont with 69 Ambassadon Taylon. That *as !, who was staffing that tnip, and Ambassadon Taylon. The only one of the thnee people who obligation to ensune knew about this I would have felt an immediate and would have tnusted that infonmation what was nequined, on at least to shane to do with it within the I told the one who was thene, and then I tunned to the othen wonk that I had. And I emailed the Sweden pontion to the DCM thene, because that pontion was nelevant to issues she was dealing with. And she was the Embassy, in Ukraine as we1I, so was someone I could neach directly out to. Othenwise, I might not have done that. And then -- and then I tunned to the othen work I had to do. fonmen DCM a Did you do a wnite-up of the call A No. between Sondland and -- a Why not? A No. So we take notes on meetings between foreignens. If a delegation comes, night, we wnite up what was discussed. If we'ne meeting with the Uknainian Govennment, we wnite up what was discussed. We in fnont-channel cables. Thene's a pnocess. When we have meetings with -- among Amenicans, and even some of nepont those things the membens hene have been we have to Ukraine on congnessional delegations, the oppontunity to meet and bnief and discuss, I don't take notes of those things. I don't say what this Uknaine on whatnot, because we they thought. We don't Congnessman nepont on U.S. nepont on Uknainian officials thought about officials and what and what they thought. 70 it didn't occun to me to put this in any of the nonmal neponting channels that I would do in my daily wonk. In fact, I was coming back to wnite up the meeting with the Pnesident of Uknaine which I had just been in, and so that's what I was doing. a Okay. Ane you familian with an intenview that Ambassadon So Sondland did that same day on July 26 with Ukraine TV? Wene you aware of that? A lust -- this is what I rememben of that. I nememben he did do an intenview, but I don't necall the details of it. a We11, would it sunprise you that he actually nefenences the lunch that he had with his staffens at the beginning of that interview? A That would surprise me, yeah. WeII, maybe it wouldn't. The lunch happened. Yeah. He did do an intenview. I'm sorry. a A Go ahead. Rea11y, maybe he I'm just necalling this now. He I want to told me, on someone else told me that he was say talking about, 1ike, Ukraine and how nice it was, and it's nice weathen and things like that. mention And I thought it was -- it wasn't the usual topics in an intenview. a intenview Wel1, wene you awane that he also said during that -- that's Ambassadon Sondland -- that he had spoken with Pnesident Tnump the day before on July 25th, Pnesident Tnump's phone doesn't call with Pnesident just minutes befone Zelensky? it in an interview, but surpnise me, because I saw him do it. And I saw him do it on A I it we would guess it would sunpnise me he said 7t the -- I saw that he was able to get directly to the Pnesident. So it doesn't sunpnise me that he may have done it on othen occasions. a My next question is, did Ambassadon Sondland even te}} you what he told Pnesident Tnump on July 25th night befone he spoke to Pnesident Zelensky? A a No, he didn't. Ane you awane Ambassadon Sondland had A a of any othen one-on-one with Pnesident convensations that Tnump? With Pnesident Tnump? No, I'm not aware. I think you said something in your opening statement that Sondland spoke about how he had direct communication - - But Ambassadon A Yeah. line of communication with the Pnesident? a A Yeah. He -- he would -- he would say things in meetings Iike, I know the Pnesident would agnee with what you just said, on I I mean, he would pontnay heand the President say something like himself as having knowledge, dinect knowledge of the President's pnionities and interests. a Mulvaney And he nepnesented the same with nespect to Chief of Staff ? -- like that way, but a lot of this is me heaning from othen people, so I don't have dinect knowledge of that. But there wene othen stonies about how he might have wonked A So less so in that kind of with Mulvaney to get centain things done, like that involved the Pnesident signing the congnatulatony letten. Thene was -- I heand an 72 account of the fact that Sondland had engaged Mulvaney that tetten signed and to a make sure to tny to get the letten included an offen of visit. a Did Ambassadon Sondland even say anything else with Mick Mulvaney on nelating to A a Not that I'm Ane you awane and Taylor had awane that he wonked Uknaine? of. of a dinner that Ambassadons Sondland, Volker, with Oleksandn Danylyuk on that evening, July A I don't recaIl. I 26? would be sunpnised, because they went to I don't -- I don't necall it. And then I left the next monning, so if it happened I wouldn't have gotten a neadout. a 0n it might have been a dinnen on July 25th, on you'ne just the fnont and they would have gotten back quite not late. So awane? A That's possible. -- of the people that those individuals were aI1 sepanately in touch with, and had Thene Danylyuk was one meetings with on a negulan basis when they visited. a Okay. Duning that lunch on JuIy 26 with Ambassadon Sondland, did he make any other phone Tnump, calls aside fnom calling Pnesident that you can necaIl? A He was using the phone to check emails and whatnot. recall him making othen phone calIs. a Did he make any phone calls on the nide back I don't to the Hyatt that you can necall? A I don't necall anything specific, but I certainly don't 73 necalI any policy-nelevant phone calls. a Was thene anything else that you can necall that was of significance duning the July 25th and A wene visit of Ambassadons Sondland and Volken on 26th? That's plenty. I testified to all the things that I thought nelevant, sin. a Okay. same phone Do you call to caII necall whether Ambassador Sondland used the Pnesident Tnump that he had been using to email on? A I think so, but I just I only saw him using one phone. I had no neason to believe it's not the same phone. I just don't know. a Thene's a Twitter - - or a photo that was put out by Ambassadon of the July 2@ -- .oh, actua1ly, hor I believe it was the May 20th meeting with Pnesident Zelensky duning the Sondland on Twitten inaugunation. You'ne in the photo. A Uh-huh. a rhene't , I the intenpneten on was sitting next to Secnetany Penny. Was that that.a staffen? A This was the actual delegation meeting? a I believe it was a delegation meeting with the Amenicans on one side and the Uknainians on the Iike you're taking notes. A I would have to I believe, y€s, it other, double-check would have been I and you'ne on the end looking who , but 74 a Do you that delegation, and, if so, who they duning A staff, necall if Secnetany Penny had any staffens with wene? Secnetany Penny did. Bnian McConmack, was was thene. And I'm blanking on him the name. his chief of He had at least two staffens. I don't necall thein names. a Ane you awane that Mn. McConmack has defied a subpoena to appean before the committee to testify in this impeachment inquiny? othen A I did nead a think you Do that, y€S. he would have relevant infonmation to shane with the committee nelating to the mattens unden investigation nelating to Uknaine ? A Potentially, but you'd have to ask him. a Did Ambassadon Sondland have any staffens with him duning the May 20th visit to the delegation othen than -- on was thene on did he have anyone else? A I don't necall. I could check. I have this in my notes. I mean, I have the -- you know, the schedule of the visit and who panticipated. Moton pool, you know, motoncade diagnams. I just -- I was focused on a I the principals. have about 4 minutes. Let me see if I can do this panticulan phone call. Eanlien today, Pnesident Trump neleased a transcnipt what appeans Pnesident to be a tnanscnipt of the Apnil 21st call ZeIensky. Did you on anyone at the points to help pnepare Pnesident Tnump of -- or between him and Embassy pnepare fon that call? talking 75 A Ondinanily, the pnocess would have been that oun at the National Security CounciI, in this case, Alex I think Fiona Hill was still thene at the time before Tim countenpants Vindman, Monnison arnived, would have generally wonked office at the State Depantment andlon the input fon an engagement of that sont. the Uknaine office, with eithen the Uknaine Embassy, and asked us fon Sometimes we'd pnovide and they would pnovide it to it, I mean, but - - and that's the genenal pnactice. I don't recaIl. I hadn't focused on that call as much in my pnepanation fon this and it's going back a little funthen. And I actually was busy today. I didn't see what the actual -- what was neleased today, this monning. I heand it was out. a WeII, nonmally would -- so talking points would be pnepared In that case, fon the Pnesident. Is that night? A a Nonmally, yes. And would those of the call that to talking points was issued aften sometimes infonm the call on the Amenican side? A Infonm the neadout? I'm not sune what you a Would coven those the readout mean. the talking points, assuming the President is going points, infonm on pnovide the basis fon a neadout of the call? A 0h, you mean public A The public announcement. A That is connect. Yes. I don't know how it is that panticulan office, but typically, now and you would pnepane a dnaft in 76 neadout and then they would edit, to what might have actually acconding happened. A So to President if the neadout of a call may have Trump unging Pnesident Zelensky included a reference to fight conruption in Uknaine, might that have been based on talking points that were pnovided to the Pnesident? A It might have been. a Would it surprise you if the President did not actually nefenence anticonnuption effonts in Uknaine duning the actual phone ca1I, as neflected by the tnanscnipt that House was neleased by the White ? A Look, the President decides what he says on the caII. He not. I think we saw that with the July 25th ca1l. It didn't include the things that I would neceives advice, and he can take it on ondinanily have thought would have reflected oun policy in that ca1l. So I don't want to speak to what may on may not have happened in that case. a But if the neadout of the call the United States says unged President Zelensky that the Pnesident of to fight connuption, something along those 1ines, wouldn't you expect the President actually said that duning the phone to on have call? A Yes. I take youn point. I would, yes. a Okay. So if that nefenence to fighting connuption appears in the neadout, might it have been based on talking points that wene provided, but wene not actually used by the Pnesident during the call? 77 A It's possible. a Yes, And you said you have of the Apnil 21st call that A neadout it's So I possible. not actually neviewed the tnanscnipt was neleased today? have a dim necollectlon of that call pneviously quite that. it was this. of some having seen some kind of time ago, and I don't necall the vehicle fon Sometimes we get an email saying, Hey, in genenal, Sometimes we talk it was confenence whene we say, We heand what's called ,n which lcable, about it on a secure video this, and sometimes we get is a limited distnibution fonmal just -- there were a couple things that happened in that call that were distinctive that I necognized. MR. NOBLE: Okay. I think my time is up, but maybe we'II pick neadout. And on that one, I back up thene when we nesume. THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Hofmes, do you want neady a bnief bneak on ane you to go fon the second houn? MR. HOLMES: I would take THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Why that bneak. don't we take a S-minute bneak, but Let's tny to keep it shont. IRecess. ] THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go back on the necord. Before I yield to the minonity, Mn. Holmes, I want to let you know, negnettably, has leaked youn wnitten testimony, which advise oun membens, and oun staff alneady is someone deeply distnessing. I knows at just about eveny deposition we do that the deposition rules nequine testimony to stay in this noom. It's up to you and youn counsel, if you want to nelease 78 youn own statement. to to up membens that's to do so, but it is not so. And I 'm deeply disappointed and distunbed that but I wanted to let you know as soon as I found out. do happened, The You ane mone than welcome time is with Mn. Caston fon one houn. MR. CASTOR: Mn. londan has questions. MR. IORDAN: Mn. Holmes, when decide to I I -- did you duning the week befone Ambassador Taylon for his testimony. I think was When come fonwand? MR. HOLMES: back did you decide? at the same time he left on came the Fniday. That's when neading pness accounts that MR. IORDAN: Last Fniday? MR. HOLMES: I'm sonny, sir? MR. IORDAN: Was thene Yes. like a specific I mean, you'ne No. Yeah. I'm sorny. MR. IORDAN: -- in fnont of thnee committees -- MR. HOLMES: impeachment othen and pant of an inquiny talking about a pnivate convensation between two individuals. One MR. HOLMES: Yes, of them's the Pnesident of the United States. sir. It sounds like you'd sont of like know when you decided, I'm going to go do that. trlhen did that happen? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. As I said earlien, I sont of woke up eveny day neading the news about this process and wondening to myself, do I have something that's impontant? And as it played out, I was MR. IORDAN: neasonably confident that most of the things that I knew wene getting out and mone, because I wasn't involved in aII these -- a 1ot of these 79 engagements So as week and a maybe I was heaning about. I said, sin, it half befone, wasn't until that week on maybe it was the whene I stanted getting a sense like actually this thing, this event, this MR. JORDAN: What I'm asking is -- go ahead. I'm MR. HOLMES: Yeah, I'm sonny. I know what think the point is thene wasn't a single point nelevant. Actually, it was when Ambassadon sonny. you're getting whene -- I I said, that is Taylor was depanting. You I was in his office, and I said, you know, I'mthinkingthis might be nelevant. It's been weighing on me the last couple days, just, you know, this discussion of firsthand infonmation and of, you know, know, all that. f'm thinking this might be relevant. MR. IORDAN: So what prompted -- I'm sonny, go ahead. MR. HOLMES: Actua11y, it was his depantune fon the next nound. fneelancing and I had nead what he testified the pnion nound, neasonably confident that it was what I had to say at that point. But subsequent to that testimony, I nealized that thene was this focus on this fneelancing and MR. IORDAN: So what pnompted you was Ambassadon the Embassy and coming back hene heaning Taylor's leaving to testify in fnont of -- in the open ? MR. HOLMES: YCah. MR. JORDAN: Was thene anyone e1se, some othen penson prompted you to come and shane MR. HOLMES: No, sin. this infonmation? who 80 it MR. IORDAN: So shaned was solely -- now, you had indicated you had this information with Ambassadon Taylor on August 6, I think, when you netunned fnom vacation. MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. MR. JoRDAN: Is that MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. night? MR. JORDAN: Any idea why Mn. Taylor didn't shane this infonmation with us when we deposed him MR. HOLMES: You'd have in Octoben? to ask him that. MR. IORDAN: He shaned eveny othen convensation he even had with anyone. MR. HOLMES: You'd have to ask him MR. IORDAN: Had you conveyed that, sin. I'm not sune. it to him mone than just that August 5th time? MR. HOLMES: and I -- as That's when I I testified, I just -- I I heand, call as sont as we wene tnying to undenstand repeatedly nefenned to that of a touchstone piece of infonmation why we wenen't able bniefed him on what to get the meeting and what was going on with the secunity hold. I would nefer back to it nepeatedly in oun, you know, monning meetings. We'd talk about what we'ne tnying to achieve this, that. meeting. And I Maybe it will do. We'ne convince the Pnesident staff tnying to to have the would say, We11, as we know, he doesn't nea11y cane about Ukraine. He canes about some other to keep Ukraine out of oun politics things. and so, you know, And we're that's trying what we'ne 81 up against. And I -- would nefen MR. JORDAN: So you use that nepeatedly as a nefnain. didn't just talk to Ambassadon Taylon about the call on August 6. You nepeatedly nefenred to the call and the convensation with Ambassadon Sondland in meetings and convensations with othen folks, but centainly several times with MR. HOLMES: Ambassadon Taylon? I nefenned to the call and what I took fnom the call, yes. MR. IORDAN: And meetings did you nefen the exact that you nefenned to MR. HOLMES: I can't hene in same things in those youn testimony? be confident that eveny time I mentioned, I -- I didn't bnief the entine call again. I just neferned back to the call as -- as when I -- you know, when I dnew those conclusions that I mentioned. MR. JORDAN: And tell me again -- I know you shaned this with majonity counsel. TeII me again who all you did shane -- you shaned this conversation that you ovenheand, yoU shaned it with the people up youn chain of command. Is that night? sir, I came back fnom the meeting, and I would have wanted to shane it with thnee people. 0n1y one was thene. I MR. HOLMES: So, shaned with that penson. MR. JORDAN: And tell me that name again. MR. HOLMES: Knistina Kvien. MR. IORDAN: That's Chief of Mission? of Mission, sin. MR. IORDAN: Deputy Chief of Mission. And then when did you MR. HOLMES: Deputy Chief 82 it with your Chief of Mission? MR. HOLMES: trlhen I came back fnom leave, which is actually the next business day that we were both in the office at the same time. MR. IORDAN: So you shared it with one person on the 26th, night shane after -MR. HOLMES: Correct. MR. IORDAN: -- your dinect nepont, When you came back on the it with the Chief of Mission and Ambassadon Taylon. MR. HOLMES: With Ambassadon Taylor. He was the chief. Yes. 6th, you shaned Same penson, yes. MR. JORDAN: Okay. And then who else? I, again, mentioned this call nepeatedly to a lot of people. Befone I depanted, that aftennoon on the 26th, I necall talking about the cal1, but I don't know to who. It was sont of, like, "you won't believe what I just heand" kind of MR. H0LMES: So aften I came back, thing. But at the same time, I came back fnom that meeting, I had a lot of wonk to do. I had to go sit in my computen terminal and wnite up the Zelensky meeting and the Bohdan meeting. And so, I can't te1l I talked to on that aftennoon. Let's go back to the call itself, page 6 of you who pnecisely else MR. IORDAN: youn written statement. MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. In the middle of the Page, it looks like middle you said, the Pnesident's voice was loud, veny loud and MR. IORDAN: panagnaph, necognizable. 83 MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. MR. IORDAN: So loud Ambassadon Sondland was that the Pnesident -- on excuse me, that pulled the phone away fnom him when the Pnesident speaking. Is that night? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. MR. JORDAN: And then though the next I did not take notes of these statements, I necognition that these statements wene So you heand these MR. HOLMES: That had a clean things cleanIy. Is that night? is connect. say: I sitting at the table also knew that Sondland was speaking to the Pnesident. colleagues who wene you say "you believe"? necognizable. f assume Even made. MR. IORDAN: The next sentence, though, you Why do say: panagnaph down, you It believe my Ambassadon was cLean and loud and they wene sitting appnoximately the same is it you believe? MR. HOLMES: So two things: They wene a little funthen away, finst of all. They wene off to the side and I was dinectly in fnont of him. So I don't know what they heand, and I neven talked to them distance from Mn. Sondland that you were. Why about what they heand. MR. IORDAN: Wene you all sitting at the same table? MR. HOLMES: They wene -- they were -- Sondland and I wene hene. off to the side oven hene. VOICE: And, Mn. Chainman, just fon the necond -- They wene THE CHAIRIfiN: Fon the recond, what "hene" and "hene" mean. 84 MR. HOLMES: fnom me Okay. in fnont of me, having convensations. So Sondland was dinectly acnoss the table dinectly in fnont of me. We And he and I wene were having a two-penson convensation fon the majority of this lunch. Let me not say The two othen people, to that. We I was Ambassadon Sondland's was sitting to my night and! left. the Embassy was sitting They wene acnoss fnom each othen. nesponsibilities at this They had sepanate I were having a two-penson convensation. 1unch. contnol officen fon the ovenall visit, you know, she was checking hen phone, coondinating, you know, the moton pool and the flight and these kind of things. I was Ambassadon Sondland's staffen, who was also checking hen phone. I don't know what, but emails fnom -- back fnom Brussels, whatever. They wene, occasion, on the phone, on they wene checking thein emails. on They were fully always engaged in the conversation that Ambassadon Sondland and I wene having. So it was my necollection, it was much mone of a two-penson kind of engagement, and they wene also thene. I don't know what they would not have heand fnom the caIl. MR. IORDAN: Okay. When lunch is over, you get back to the Embassy. MR. H0LMES: Yes, sin. MR. IORDAN: Did Did the thnee of the thnee of you talk? Mn. Sondland is gone. you talk? MR. HOLMES: No. So the foun of us left the restaunant together 85 in the same vehicle, was going ro I and! was going and dnove to the Hyatt. And the thnee of them, to stick with Sondland until the end of his visit, to fly out with Sondland. So the thnee of them stayed at the Hyatt. I, then, went back to the Embassy myself. So I the two of them aften this meeting when Sondland was was never with not thene befone I left fon my vacation the next day. a subsequent convensation with MR. IORDAN: Did you even have eithen one of the othen two individuals at the lunch after the one stays with Ambassadon Sondland, one goes with Ambassadon Sondland when he leaves, did you even have a subsequent convensation with those individuals two ? until I retunned from my vacation, and theneaften possibly, but only in the genenal sense of, you know, we MR. HOLMES: Centainly not might have been in the same meeting at some point when I said, you know, what I had, to my knowledge, a dinect said befone about this being nelevant infonmation. But convensation with eithen one I neven of them about specifically -MR. IORDAN: You neven went up this up to was -- eanlien you said this them and was to -- I mean, you said unbelievable. So you neven went said, Hey, can you believe that call the Ambassadon had? is at a diffenent mission. I don't is in a diffenent section. know if r even even saw hen since. AndI She's a Lowen level than I am. I don't intenact. She's not my countenpant in that section. MR. HOLMES: Yes. So I 86 MR. loRDANr is in Kyiv with I you? is in the economic section. She is one of I the line officens in the economic section. I'm in the political section. I walk by hen in the ha1lway, but we wene not wonking on a daily basis. The meetings that I would be in on a negular basis would MR. HoLMEs, be with the MR. IORDAN: f'm not talking about meetings. MR. HOLMES: I'm MR. IORDAN: I'm talking about you walk by hen in the hallway. sonny. MR. HOLMES: YCAh. MR. IORDAN: Did you say, Hey, can you believe that call we had a week ago when we wene having lunch with MR. HOLMES: doing I mean, Ambassadon Sondland? I might have done that, but I don't necalI that. I don't necaIl having a convensation with hen about that ca11. this convensation you had with Ambassadon Taylon that was prompt -- on what convinced you, whateven MR. IORDAN: tenm you want TelI me about to use, to come fonwand. When was this? MR. HOLMES: That was on Fniday, a week ago. MR. I0RDAN: A week ago today? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. MR. IORDAN: Okay. MR. HOLMES: I was And in tell me about Ambassador that convensation. Taylon's office just on my I said, you know, have a good tnip, si-n. I said, you know, it's been on my mind, I wonden if, in light of, negulan business, and And you 87 know, what we'ne now heaning with the nanrative about potentially fneelancing and the first-penson that I ovenheand And he is stuff, I'm wondening now if that call incneasingly nelevant. said, 0h, which call is that? And I said, WeII, you sin, I told you about this call in which -- I didn't go in detail, but I said, in which I ovenheand this conversation at lunch. rememben, And he told said, me I do nememben on someone else MR. JORDAN: And something about told me, but that. I'm not sune if you that nings a bell. did he give you advice on counsel on what to do? MR. HOLMES: No. MR. IORDAN: What MR. HOLMES: I did you do aften that? went back to my office. next day on two. He sent me a message saying, my attonneys. to have They think it's significant. He I left, I believe, naised the issue with They feel they'ne going to naise it with the gentlemen, with the ladies of the committees. And my lawyens MR. IORDAN: Then what MR. HOLMES: and gentlemen think you should netain counsel. did you I said, I've the do? neven done that befone. I don't know to begin. Can you ask fon, you know, any necommendations, any names ? I don't even know whene to stant. And he sent me a couple names fnom his lawyers. And I said, we1l, I nea1ly need -- I didn't teII himthis. I said whene is a professional association, where I'm awane they have a legal defense fund. And so I called -- I emailed AFSA, the AFSA pnesident to ask him, you know, to myself, I neally need to stant with AFSA, which 88 if I wene to need to netain counsel ungently, what would I do about it. I think this was on a Saturday, so I was aware I wouldn't get an answen. So, in panallel, I was neaching out to them to make sure I had, their -- whateven the night pnocedune was. And then I neached out to my lawyen and I, you know, looked at his resume. He looked veny qualified. And so things ane moving -- you know, I Laughten. ] THE CHAIRMAN: He wasn't qualified, so I looked fon anothen lawyen littIe bit fnightened by how fast this was moving, and so I did what I could veny quickly. MR. HOLMES: So I was a MR. IORDAN: And youn counsel contacted MR. HOLMES: My counsel the committee? -- MR. IORDAN: Then youn counsel contacted the committee? so. I believe so. Yes, sin. Yes, sin. MR. IORDAN: A11 night. I'm going to 1et Mn. Caston go. MR. HOLMES: I believe BY MR. CASTOR: ) a AI. a A She ovenheand pants So of the call as well? I'm almost centain she knew that Ambassadon Sondland was talking to the Pnesident. I do not know what she ovenheard, because I neven talked to hen about what she a Okay. So since ovenheand. the luly 26th event? 89 A Yeah. a You haven't had any occasion to speak with her about the caII? A I just haven't spoken with hen about the call. Did you know at one point the committee had invited a Okay. hen to participate in this process? A Actually, I do know that, yeah. a Okay. And did you have any communications with hen about that ? A I didn't hean from hen that she got invited to panticipate in the pnocess. I heand fnom othen people just secondhand, Hey, did you hean I is going back? But that was it. a Okay. So you haven't had any talks with hen about mattens nelating to this investigation? A No, not the substance of it. So she, I guess, came back. I don't exactl-y know what happened when she was hene, because I don't talk to hen on a negulan basis. But when I was going to go back -- I'm trying to think Yeah. I need how Then to know? I this went. I did run into hen and know you wene said, I'm going back. Anything just back. And she said -- she said, I didn't end up giving a deposition. I don't know what she did. And I said, WeII, it's looking like this thing is moving nealIy fast and I'm going to go back, and I think some of the things that I heand, you know, at that event that you were at as well 0h, well, it tunned out may be nelevant to this. a That's pnetty much the sum and substance? 90 A That's pnetty much the sum of it, a When you necounted this episode, told the DCM and you subsequently told any othen key figunes than - yeah. you sort Ambassadon of identified, Taylor. Wene you thene that you communicated about this episode other - A About on with? I'm sorny. People I spoke with on about? a Any othen officials at the Embassy -A No. Right. a -- that you bniefed out on this caIl, not the side convensations that you made about,it? A Right. No. wanted That's why -- it was three people I would have to bnief this on, and only one was thene and I did that. a Okay. Did the DCM give you any instnuctions for memonializing the convensation? A No, she didn't. a Okay. So you just -- you bniefed her, and that was pnetty much A Yes. a -- the end of it? A Yes. a And then when you neconvened with Ambassador youn vacation, and you related what you heand on the you nememben his Taylon aften call to him, do neaction? A You know, yes, I nememben the look on his face. And it was like -- how do I descnibe this without -- so we can take it down. It 91 was 1ike, yeah, as we expected. a Okay. When is the finst time the Sondland-Volker component of this sont of come into your lane? 92 16:27 p.m. l MR. HOLMES: So the finst time that what became, you know, ca1led the Thnee Amigos, got togethen and what they wene doing and came to Kyiv and engaged and I saw all that, I believe, was on May 20th, that inaugural delegation. BY MR. CASTOR: a Okay. And was that the finst time you had met Ambassadon Sondland ? it right. He came to Uknaine pneviously, but I wasn't involved with that. I think he went down to Odesa for a ship visit. I don't necall meeting him or engaging with him subsequently. a Okay. And how many times do you rememben him visiting, was it the -- fon the -- whene you had, you know, one-on-one intenactions with him? It was for the inaugunation and then it was July 25th, and A Let me get wene thene others? A Those wene the two main was anothen one, it would have been something, but not having a 1ot a Okay. investigations ones. I mean, I'm sonny, if thene like r joined fon one meeting on of interaction. But no othen meetings that naised the pnospect of the ? A As fan as I know. a So to the best of I can't necall other meetings so I don't know. youn knowledge, anything relating to the 7/25 call, the investigations, that's aI] captuned in your statement? A Yes, sin. 93 Okay. a Had you been awane of the, 1ike, the role that Volker, Sondland, and Penny were, you know, penfonming pnior to the inaugunal? Like when you saw that they were coming had you been clued in that A Yeah. a A -- they had a nole? all They Ambassadon VoIken had been invoLved in panticulan Washington because he was who sont policy, of -- some fashion in Uknaine. was a veny impontant penson of helping us advance Uknaine to get out messaging veny quickly in suppont of Uknaine to, and he played a numben of impontant noles, fnankly, in helping, you know, fnom the time he came on that only in the peace pnocess, which nange of fon us in this special envoy, special nepnesentative, we undenstood was sont was able when we needed in was assignment, not his specific focus, but in a bnoaden events to us. We wonked closely with his staff. The extennal unit in the political section that I supenvised was in negulan contact with his staff on those issues. So he was well known So he was to us, well known and we knew how to wonk with him. it's that nelationship with him then changed in some ways when he became pant of this gnoup. And we undenstood that he was sont of panticipating in that to sont of harness the abilities of Gondon Fon example, Sondland and possibly Secnetany Penny and engagement on Uknaine to get the Pnesident's intenest to help advance what we alneady knew he was wonking on. a And Ambassadon Volker had been a careen Foneign Senvice 94 officer. He was somebody of diplomacy, with a professional skill set in the realm night? A I believe so, yes. a And the nole of Secnetany Penny, when did you finst leann in Kyiv. about his involvement? A Yeah. So the Depantment They have a whole agenda of Energy has an attache with the Uknainian Govennment, whethen it's of vanious kinds. So thene is a whole nange of things that the Depantment of Enengy has wonked on fnom nuclean issues to enengy issues thene. That's not my expentise. And so I know involved in vanious ways oven the counse of that I undenstood that he was involved that Secnetany Penny was time. But the finst time in a compnehensive effont to in the way that they did in a new administnation, fonmulate a new policy -- not a new -- formulate an agenda and whene they wene oun main points of contact to do that was stanting with this Thnee Amigos engage formation. a Okay. And the tenm, when did you finst hear the tenm "Thnee Amigos " ? A It just stanted getting used. I believe Sondland might have used it in a press intenview. I don't rememben exactly. But it became what a A a Okay. Yeah. He mentioned it in the 7/26 interview that we wene talking 95 about in the finst nound. I don't know if that rings any bells fon you. -- the genesis of it. I was calling them the tniumvirate at finst, the thnee of them. And then people stanted using the Thnee Amigos, so I stanted using the Thnee Amigos. I don't know whene it came fnom. a Okay. You mentioned Secnetany Penny had passed a list to A Honestly, I don't know when Pnesident Zelensky neganding enengy industny contacts that he could tnust. Is that how you A So I didn't see the list. I saw him pass a piece of papen. I don't know what was on it. He described it in the meeting as a list of tnusted individuals who he would encounage Pnesident Zelensky to consult on enengy nefonm issues. a Okay. In youn intenactions with Secnetany Penny could you just sont of walk us thnough the vanious data points involving him? A sir, a panticulan -a Wel1, he was -- and he came to the inaugunation? A Yes. So what I can say -- again, so he had involvement with Uknaine, with Embassy staff, with an attache on vanious issues at vanious times. I did not tnack closely because I don't work on enengy 0n what date, issues. The when he finst time that I stanted tnacking those issues closely started playing a nole, a centnal no1e, as the head of was the Pnesidential inaugunal delegation and as a figune in this gnoup that wene collectively advancing an agenda. 96 a Okay. Ane there any othen key meetings involving him? A I mean, fnom that point, as I undenstood it, he was involved in those convensations, so I don't a The meetings that you wene in. A WeI1, on the mangins of these meetings a Right. A -- we would intenact, we would wait in the waiting go into the Pnesidential Administnation Office or, team bnief when they'd visit noom to you know, a countny and we'd give them oun sense of what was going on. So thene were mangins intenactions, but I don't -- but, You know, on the of these othen events. is the finst time you became aware of the investigations, you know, whethen it be Bunisma oe 2@L6? Like when is the finst time that that -A Yeah. concept stnuck you? a A The concept seemed to be gathening in impontance and a kind a When of a centrality of focus stanting bannage stanted theme anound March when that I descnibed pneviously, of those nannatives. And that's when and I this that sont of media was a consistent stanted focusing on that live issue as opposed to a histonical issue, because a lot of that stuff happened befone I even anrived in Uknaine. as being a a Okay. And did you learn of that just thnough news accounts? A Yes, mostly. I mean, but people wene talking about it, you 97 know. So you would meet people at a, you know, neception on something, and they would say, you know, what's going on about Bunisma and all that, you know. I with these pness neponts mean, it was a topic of convensation. a Okay. But it wasn't any firsthand infonmation based Sondland, Volker, on Penny? A We1I, except what In that on timefname. I've testified to, sin. a In the Manch timefname. A Not that I'm awane of, Not that I'm awane of, no. a I guess what I'm tnying to connect is, you know -A Yeah, sune. it was a concept that was in the news and people wene a talking about it. A It was. a And then it became pant of youn -- something that you panticipated in and you stanted A That's connect. a And I was wondening if that came to to get finsthand infonmation you could about. just sort of explain how be. A I think I've outlined it in my testimony, sin, that we hean about these -- this investigation coming from various sounces, whethen it's in the media, and then oven time thnough these intenactions that I've explained sont of stanted drawing the conclusion this was a -- potentially a centnal element of kind of an agenda that was not consonant with what we undenstood to be oun formal policy. 98 a youn And did you even, you know, relate concerns that you had with on Ambassador Taylon on Ambassadon Vo1ken on Ambassador DCM Sondland when these events wene coming togethen? A In a diffenent kind of way. We wene told to do oun jobs and advance oun Uknaine policy as we understood it. And we wene trying to to undenstand why these things wene coming pnominence and wene not going away and why thene's so much focus on them. So that's how I focused on it mone. a Okay. And do you know if tried to anybody confen with Vo1ker on Sondland at the -- at post, you know, or Secnetany Penry to expness concenn about these investigations? So, again, you know, we wene -- how do I put A this? We to be political things that are nelevant in politics, and we stayed out of that. undenstood those things U.S. domestic And so I'm not sune if we expressed concenn that thene was a nannative in the U.S. media about this sont of thing, but we were concenned that that was out and was something that seemed incneasingly impontant. And didn't upon it was knowwhat our a concenn of ours that to do about it, ability to was an expnession advance and of concenn, but someone Because among with the didn't seemed the policy that we a Okay. And do you know if with Volken? it we didn't undenstand why, increasinglyto impinge understood. So thene we know what anyone from post the thnee, Volken skill set in pnofessional we is to do about it. tnied to connect pnobably closest to diplomacy, connect? 99 A I mean, the convensations, the intenactions that I've testified to and that I undenstand that Ambassadon Taylon testified to are the ones we think are nelevant with nespect to these issues. a Okay. So you neven had an oppontunity to have a one-on-one convensation with Ambassadon Vo1ken to get his feeling on where these matters ane pnoceeding? A Not outside of the instance that I've descnibed and othens have descnibed. a Okay. So you haven't neally had a one-on-one with Volken? A I have not had a one-on-one with Volken, but in Volken's visits we would talk about things, a Okay. When Ambassador even an intnoductony bniefing discussed A we was to come in Kyiv, was thene wene in Uknaine. I've seen it is nememben when he annived, I because he anrived -- he mean, penhaps mone than out of a bunch of meetings in Washington whene talking about what meet Taylon annived to him whene any of these issues tnying to of these issues wene. He'd just he was in the counse of the visits. ? The reason I'm Was awane you know, he was going to -- what his, You know, nole neponted and he has mentioned also that he wanted the Secnetany pensonally to ensune he understood what his mandate was and if he would be backed by the Uknaine policy as he understood it. the Secnetany to So I seem implement to necall him testifying about some of these issues. So he came to post, at least on this set of issues, these 100 telling us what the Secnetany, you know, his instnuctions to him, y€S, I'11 back you and whatnot. So it wasn't like we did a soup-to-nuts bniefing fon him on the Bunisma issue, but we, you know -- and like I said, it was something investigations and whatnot, that pneceded us. We wene awane and all neading the media. a I mean, he arnived at post about a month into this, you know, if the Thnee Amigos, as they're called, you know, came fon the inaugunation, you know, May 20th. A month later, June 17th, Ambassadon Taylon annives. And I guess I was wondening, did -- if you Taylon. Did nemember any of the intnoductony meetings with he communicate anything A Yeah. said, do youn He Ambassadon specific about, is this going to said, we be oun postune? don't get involved in U.S. politics. jobs, be pnofessionals. He Focus on implementing Ukraine policy. Don't worry about that. Don't wonny about that static. That's fon othen people to worny about. So, sonny, bnought I didn't convey to post. His instructions that cleanly, but that's what wene to he do oun jobs as we undenstood them. a Okay. involved with So some to the extent Sondland, Volken, Penny wene of these issues, you had instnuctions, undenstanding from the Ambassador, Ambassadon Taylor, not A wanting Conrect, which to to get involved? is in many cases why Ambassadon have those intenactions staff. a Okay. Fain enough. Taylon is with them, not those of us on the 101 You nelated the convensation you had with Ambassadon Sondland at the lunch. A a why Sune. And I think you said something to the effect of, doesn't Pnesident A a Tnump cane about Ukraine? you know, Is that night? Yes, sir. And, you know, thene ane sont that have occunned of a numben of, you know, facts duning the Trump administnation that have been favonable, connect? A a A Yes, sin. You know, the pnoviding of -- Yes, sin. letha1 defensive weaponny -a A Yes. a -- the Javelins A That's night. is a positive development. a A Yes, sin. a Also a symbolic development. A Exactly. a And the delegation to Pnesident Zelensky's inaugunation was a good gnoup, connect? A I would negard that as -- how do I put this? as senion a delegatlon as we might have expected. a Okay. Even given the short timefname? That was not L02 A It's a fain considenation. It's a fain question. But, like I said, it's not the level that we wene hoping fon. a Like our undenstanding from the Vice President's side of things is that, you know, willing to go and had given some dates and I betieve the dates were, you know, May 28th, 29th. A Yes. a Do you necall any of that, the window the Vice Pnesident's office A Yeah. It was a nannow window. I'm just saying that even despite the nannow window, oun understanding was the pnoposal was fon the Vice Pnesident to attend and in the end he didn't. I'm not a A a 16th Okay. Yeah. And the May 20th inaugural date was set, I believe, on the on A a A Yes. night anound that time? So, yeah, we knew thene was going to be an inaugunation from the time he was elected in the second nound, and so we began making pnepanations fon what that delegation would look like. I don't to put the date on it, but we knew we'd need to do that want and prepanations wene undenway. You'ne to when when it it right, when it was actually finally called happened, but we had had an was likely to haPPen. was veny close indication befone that about 103 a Okay. But manshalling the Vice Pnesident's openation is somewhat complicated, connect? A That's connect, y€s. a He's got a whole Secnet Senvice component A Yes, sin. a -- to do advance wonk and book hotels, and his tnaveling contingent is A That's connect. a -- much largen than just about anyone othen than the Pnesident, connect? A . That's cornect. a So if the Vice Pnesident, you know, couldn't attend given the shont timefname on for some othen neason, Iike, what type of delegation did you -- wene you hoping for? A We1I, I'm going to just -- we were hoping fon the Vice Pnesident and a Right. A -- but since he wasn't available then sending a Cabinet secnetany was a neasonable thing to do. a Okay. A So I'm not saying we wene dissatisfied with the delegation, I'm just saying, you know, it wasn't where we stanted. But then it also tunned out that that delegation became the people who wene de facto in the lead just stating it as a fact. on oun Uknaine policy going fonwand. So 104 a Okay. And I can't nememben was Ambassadon Sondland on Ambassadon as we sit here today whethen Volker, but one it of the witnesses, that has pnovided testimony that has been released has, I think, chanacterized the delegation as being one of the langen delegations fnom the visiting countnies. Is that fain to say? you know, A The United States usually is one of the biggen delegations in my experience because we'ne an impontant a A countny. Right. They make room fon us because we matten. I'm not sune how to othen delegations in that instance. I'm not Sune. a Okay. But if one of the witnesses chanactenized oun we companed delegation as, you know, one of the biggen ones, if not the biggest, that wouldn't be completely out of -- that wouldn't be inconsistent with youn necollections? A It was a five-person delegation, and I don't think that is if that was lange relative to othens. a Okay. And then thene were some othen -- and I don't know if you considen them high leve1 -- but thene was a delegation that visited with the National Secunity Advison in July? A WeII, there's Tim Mornison, his staff. I'm not recalling especially 1ange. I don't reca1l which delegation. a Thene was Ambassadon Volken, a delegation involving I believe Mn. Yenmak, and some othen Uknainian officials that visited the White A Ambassadon Sondland, Oh, Washington, House complex -- I'm sonny. I thought you meant 105 a -Advison and met with Ambassadon Bolton, the National Security ? A I believe so, yes. a In the middle of JuIy? A Yes. a And then subsequent to that, Ambassador Bolton visited Uknaine A a YeS. And wene you involved at all with Ambassadon BoLton's August A I was. 27th, 28th, 29th visit? a A Yes. a And what do you necall fnom that set of meetings? A I think I included that in my testimony, with the meeting with Mn. Zelensky -- actua1ly, thene wene othen meetings. Thene was a meeting with Mn. Bohdan, and then thene wene the things I heand Ambassadon Bolton say on the margins of that meeting as well. a Okay. But that was a pnoductive visit? A Yes. a I mean, was that the type of -- you know, a signal the U.S. could send that it values its nelationship with Uknaine? A That was the -- I would say pnobably the biggest visit we had since Pnesident Zelensky's inaugunation. He's not the Pnesident of the United States. That's who they wene asking fon. And he left 106 his post, I think, the next week. a Okay. And then sevenal days laten with Vice Pnesident A Yes. with the news Pence Pnesident Pnesident Zelensky met in Wansaw? -- National Secunity Advison Bolton that Pnesident Tnump was going to And then he did not go to Wansaw. So was that that to was an oppontunity they met meet meet Zelensky in came Wansaw. -- again, the expectation the Pnesident and it tunned out not. just -- when you asked the question of Ambassador Sondland about, you know, sounds like President Tnump doesn't cane much about Ukraine, I mean, thene ane sevenal, you know, data points -- the a So Javelins, the engagement at the inauguration, the two Bolton meetings, -- that at least on the othen side ofthe coin shows that the U.S. was investing in its nelationship with the Vice Pnesident Pence meeting the new A administnation So in the Uknaine, the lavelins happened connect? quite a while ago. That was an important thing. a Right. A It was positive. That was unden the prion Uknainian administnation and quite a while ago. a A Right. Since the election of Pnesident Zelensky on a landslide and on a platfonm that was consistent with oun intenests, including anti-connuption, a 1ot of senion officials expnessed intenest indeed visited, as you said, but not the Pnesident. and to7 Okay. a And wene you hoping that the Pnesident of the United States would visit Kyiv? A No. The Pnesident ultimately sent Zelensky congnatulatony letten that said I look forwand -- something like I look to welcoming you to the White House, without a date specified. fonwand that basis the Uknainians thought that they So on a wene going to get the most impontant meeting that they identified. And it was in that phase, stanting in Manch and leading up to -- so this is now several months after Manch and the inaugunation whene we had - - the Pnesident had not engaged in - - he had not followed up on the offen of a meeting, and we didn't undenstand why, and in that context that I the question. asked a I think duning the the meeting that you -- that July 26th -- a pnivate A of questions, going back to on May 20 -- I'm sonny, houn occunned between Ambassadon Sondland and Mn. Yenmak, of lost tnack of had finst Ambassadon Sondland and he was ahead that you sont of you and he meeting? Yeah. a I want to go back to that. A Sune. What actually happened was, again, I was going to do the Bohdan and Zelensky meeting, and then since Sondland -- so -- sonny. Kunt Volken had met Yermak the day befone pnion annival. I believe it was that night that Sondland said, weII, I want to meeting late. on at some meet him, to Sondland's point aften his annival too. So we added that 108 I was alneady going to coven the Bohdan meeting, meeting. That's actually quite a bit to I believe it was Knistina Kvien, the that. Taylor couldn't stay fon coven and wnite DCM, who was Pnesident's administnation to coven the He had the Zelensky up. And so going to come to the Yenmak meeting because Change to leave for the fnont lines with Volken, right? a A Right. I don't necall exactly. She didn't get access to the building on something. And so when I came out of the meeting I was told to take her place as Embassy nepnesentative in So something happened. the meeting. a Okay. And then I think Ambassadon Sondland and A I came then he -- staff people said, you're supposed that meeting. I said, ror she is. I -- he was a Then they told me the to go to story. By flight of stairs up. I tnied to catch up, and in. and he went a A a A a A a lost tnack with out of the meeting not expecting to go to the next meeting, and one of the that point, you indicated you Okay. And so you waited in the antenoom -- Connect. -- while the meeting happened? Cornect. And how long did the meeting last? Thinty minutes. Okay. And then Ambassadon Sondland came out, and is that 109 when you departed fon lunch? A Yes. a Okay. And did you ask Ambassadon Sondland what he discussed? And I apologize if you have alneady answened this. A No. I said -- so it was in the context of going to lunch. I did want to know what he discussed. And I said, you know, I'd be happy to come to you with -- come to lunch with you, fon example, if you would And he like to bnief out on that meeting on talk said, yeah, sune, about othen issues. come along. at the lunch I did not specifically say, what did you and Yermak discuss? A1so, it was cLean to me fnom the tone of the lunch that he didn't negand it as a working lunch. Maybe I could have asked, And but I didn't. a 0h, okay. THE CHAIRMAN: I just want to tell if we can get the ain back on, because I in hene. Membens, we'ne know going to see it's getting veny hot MR. CASTOR: Late and hot. just me. No, it's not just you. We may all MR. HOLMES: I thought THE CHAIRMAN: it was have to do the Jim londan and take oun coats off. MR. CASTOR: MR. ZELDIN: MR. HOLMES: I'd like to make sune that oun -- Mn. Ze1din. , did I pnonounce hen name conrectly? 110 MR. ZELDTN' I. MR. HOMES: Yes, sin. said that you haven't discussed the call with her, but you said you did speak with her aften she netunned fnom D.C. MR. Is that ZELDIN: So you connect? MR. HOLMES: Yeah. 0n1y once I found out that I was coming back. I basically said, it looks like I'm going back now. It seems to me this thing is impontant on they're telling me it's impontant, so I'm going back, you know, any tips on the pnocess, basically. And MR. ZELDIN: Did she while she was in in No. NO. ZELDIN: And whene were you when you spoke to hen? penson anyone D.C.? MR. HOLMES: MR. indicate whethen she had met with or on the tdas this phone? MR. HOLMES: It was in person. MR. ZELDIN: And how long did you speak to hen fon? MR. H0LMES: Five minutes, less. MR. ZELDIN: And you said you said something about the event that you had been at together being relevant to this inquiny. Is that night? MR. HOLMES: YCAh. MR. ZELDIN: And what did she say in nesponse? I said, I don't want to talk about anything of substance. It looks like that event is incneasingly significant and so I'm heading back. Anything I need -- any tips on, you know, MR. HOLMES: You know, pnocess on what this is like? lLL That' s when she told me, actually And I said, yeah, I with had to hine a lawyer, AFSA and how you do MR. I didn't testify in this fonmat. that. And that and we was MR. HOLMES: event it, I think. ZELDIN: And by the event you wene at togethen, you meant the lunch you were at with the Pnesident's phone MR. talked about wonking call -- Yes. YCS ZELDIN: Did she say anything to you substantively about the ? No. I said, I don't want to talk about the e.vent, I don't want to talk about that incident, but it sounds to me like that's MR. HOLMES: significant. MR. ZELDIN: I wanted to ask you a few questions about youn opening statement. Stanting on page thnee, you said, quote, with negands to the tenm the Thnee Amigos, you say, quote, laten styled themselves the, quote, Three Amigos and made clean they would take the lead on coondinating oun policy and engagement with the Zelensky administnation. Where Amigos did you hean that they, quote, styled themselves the ? MR. HOLMES: So people started using the tenm, and someone then it in an intenview to themselves. And people started using the tenm, like told Thnee me that Sondland had used talking about the thnee of MR. ZELDIN: So an intenview? describe when we wene them nathen than naming them individually. the onigin of that was that Sondland used it in 1t2 MR. HOLMES: I I I haven't tnaced the onigin, but that's what mean, undenstood. MR. ZELDIN: That's what you believe the onigin to MR. HOLMES: That's what MR. ZELDIN: And can you intenview was I believed, Y€s, sin. give me a nough timefname of when that was? MR. HOLMES: I be? I don't know, sin. It's hand to say. Like I said, calling them something. Someone else said, oh, actually, I've heand them ca1led this, and I heand other people using that tenm. then at some point someone said, whene did that else said, he used it in an intenview. But come fnom? And And someone I don't -- it just became a tenm of ant. MR. ZELDIN: When did they make, quote, clean they would take the lead on coondinating our policy and engagement with the Zelensky administnation? MR. HOLMES: ' Yeah. That was -- so on the May delegation thene wene pnepanatory meetings at the a Countny Team bniefing where membens of the 20th inaugural Hyatt. So there's Embassy Countny Team would just sont of give a briefing oh, you know, the political these sonts of things that And they would And talk. I participated in. talhat ane we going what's, you know, what's - - what talk in tenms of we need landscape and ane oun to naise with pnionities? to fonmulate an agenda to And Zelensky? they would engage this new administnation, help them to succeed, and help them to deliven things that -- you know, a meeting with the Pnesident is veny impontant, and 113 they think it's impontant, and we need to help them deliven things that will make clean to the Pnesident that a good nelationship with Uknaine is impontant. So it was just pant of the discussions duning the visit. MR. ZELDIN: you nefenred to the Okay. And then throughout youn opening statement tenm "the Thnee Amigos. " Eveny time you nefenence it, fon example, the meeting that Senaton Johnson was at MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. MR. ZELDIN: MR. HOLMES: collective noun -- did he use the tenm "Three Amigos"? I don't know. So I guess I'm just using it as to descnibe -- not nefen to the three individuals a who, you know, uniquely compnised that gnoup that they used to descnibe themselves. So that's why MR. ZELDIN: Okay. I used it that way. So as we nead youn opening statement that these diffenent individuals ane using the you dnafted your opening statement, you're just it's not tenm. You'ne just, nefenning to all as thnee as the Thnee Amigos -MR. HOLMES: Yes. MR. ZELDIN: -- MR. HOLMES: Connect. But they also used the tenm as well to instead of listing the thnee out? descnibe themselves. MR. ZELDIN: Connect. But not MR. HOLMES: Yes. MR. ZELDIN: But eveny your opening statement. single time -- you nefenence it a lot in t14 MR. HOLMES: Oh, yeah. So, for example, fon example, that meeting with Senator Johnson, it would have been those thnee individuals plus Senaton Johnson, yes. MR. ZELDIN: the tenm "Thnee Okay. But it's not that Senator lohnson is using Amigos"? MR. ZELDIN: You'ne MR. HOLMES: Lots not of MR. sune? people wene using MR. ZELDIN: But You'ne MR. HOLMES: I believe he may have, sin. I don't MR. HOLMES: You know, that term. just not sune? I'm not sure. ZELDIN: Okay. So, okay, going back to page three, you say, quote, Mn. Giuliani, a pnivate lawyen, was taking a dinect role in Uknainian diplomacy, How do I believe end quote. you know that he wasn't getting involved to nepresent the President client as his as opposed in just tnying to getting directly involved in Uknainian diplomacY? MR. HgLMES: The Uknainians, convensations viewed him as an impontant nepnesentative of the United let me say significant individual in it this way. tenms of with the Uknainians, Amenican intenests They viewed him as and a of thein relationship with the United States. MR. ZELDIN: But page thnee that -- okay. But you state at the bottom of that Mn. Giu1iani, a pnivate lawyen, was taking a dinect role in Uknainian diplomacy. How Uknaine views Rudy Giuliani doesn't explain why you say that Mn. Giuliani was taking a dinect role in 115 Uknainian diplomacy. MR. HOLMES: I whene Sune. that's the topic sentence of a paragnaph So descnibe how Uknainians ane saying to neaching out to them dinectly them that they undenstand make contact. Mn. -- to manage he wasn't Giuliani is And we undenstood fnom neganded him as an impontant penson to talk to, to thein nelationship with the United States. MR. ZELDIN: But how do you know dinect -- that that he wasn't just getting getting involved in tnying to repnesent his client as a private lawyen? MR. HOLMES: viewed him in I'm just tnying to say, sin, that the Uknainians than that. bnoaden terms MR. ZELDIN: Okay. So you're saying that the Uknainians were that, not -- you'ne not saying that you concluded that Rudy Giuliani viewed himself as being dinectly involved in Uknainian viewing him as d iploma cy ? MR. HOLMES: AIso, some of the pnionities he and people close him had been anticulating fon weeks incneasingly became, as undenstood view. So it, we othen pnionities that the administration held, these two things wene happening in the same to in our time, and we wene incneasingly becoming awane that he was playing this nole. MR. ZELDIN: Was Rudy Giuliani nepnesenting his client as a pnivate attonney? MR. HOLMES: I have neven spoken with him, sin. So, I mean, you could ask him. MR. ZELDIN: Okay. But you're concluding -- I'm tnying to 116 figune out what you're concluding. MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. that MR. ZELDIN: Ane you concluding repnesenting his client as a pnivate Again, Giuliani said this is speaking MR. ZELDIN: he was an advisen me that, you know, to the Vice Pnesident. in Russian. He could've could've -- gotten the name yeah. ZELDIN: So to that point, Giuliani named attonney? Okay. So -- MR. HOLMES: He MR. Giuliani wasn't At one point he, Mn. Bakanov, told MR. HOLMES: someone named Rudy who I mean, youn quote says, someone said he was an advisen to the Vice Pnesident. MR. HOLMES: Uh-huh. MR. ZELDIN: Ane we nefenning to Vice Pnesident Pence, Pnesident Tnump, on someone else? MR. HOLMES: that. But he was a that's That's what he said. what he significant said. penson in And so tenms I don't know what he meant by they - - they seem to think that of managing thein relationship with the United States. MR. ZELDIN: Okay. You state, quote, Sondland stated, Rudy, eveny time Rudy gets involved he goes and When effs evenything up. did Sondland say that? MR. HOLMES: It was at the Hyatt amongst those vanious to the meeting, the day. MR. ZELDIN: I might get back to that. You annived in August of 2@L7? pnepanatory meetings prion dammit, 717 MR. HOLMES: YES. MR. ZELDIN: What wene you doing befone August MR. HOLMES: I was of 2@L7? in Uknainian Ianguage tnaining in Washington fon a yean, just shy of a yean. MR. ZELDIN: And what wene you doing befone that? MR. HOLMES: I was MR. ZELDIN: Okay. at Embassy Moscow Was this youn fon 3 yeans. finst assignment in Uknaine? MR. HOLMES: Yes. MR. ZELDIN: And if I undenstand connectly, ) MR. HOLMES: MR. ZELDIN: I' MR. HOLMES: MR. ZE MR. HOLMES: MR. ZELDIN: MR. HOLMES: MR. ZE LDIN: ? ? LDIN: ? MR. HOLMES: MR. ZELDIN: When you annived the pictune of Pnesident MR. HOLMES: I Trump in August of 20L7, is it tnue that wasn't yet up inside the don't neca1l that, sin. MR. ZELDIN: You don't necall whethen on not Embassy? 118 MR. HOLMES: I whethen it don't necall whether -- I mean, I don't necall was up on not. MR. ZELDIN: It may have been up, it may not have been up? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. MR. ZELDIN: When you stated that you nead a lot about Sondland ' s testimony in the news, which news sounces did you get that from? Sir, I don'tthink I did nead a 1ot about Sondland's in the news. I think I saw headlines and anticles. It could MR. HOLMES: testimony have been news apps on my phone. It could have been Washington Post, Times A1so, we have a pness team at the Embassy that does a compilation this email with all the headlines and stuff. I don't always pay attention to what the sounce was. But, f mean, I just take that in, sont of subsume it. eveny day MR. of Westenn media sounces, ZELDIN: 0then than Ambassadon Taylon, who e1se, other than youn attonney, of counse, have you spoken to about youn testimony today? MR. HOLMES: About About the close to and so we get the substance of and family me. Ambassadon about testimony? No one. fact I'm testifying? People, you know, fniends that convensation last Fniday Taylon, did you have any convensations with anyone MR. ZELDIN: And befone you had with my that call? MR. HOLMES: Only as I've described, sin. MR. ZELDIN: Did anyone refnesh youn necollection of the call? Did anyone help you refnesh youn necollection of the call? 119 MR. HOLMES: No, and that wouldn't have been needed, sin, I said, the event itself was so distinctive that I nememben it veny cleanly, and I was constantly thinking about whethen that incident was nelevant as this pnocess unfolded. MR. ZELDIN: You state in youn opening statement, Ambassador because, as Taylon did tell me on Septemben 8th, quote, now they'ne insisting to the investigation in an intenview with CNN. Do you know whene Ambassadon Taylon got that fnom? MR. HOLMES: Offhand, I don't. I nememben him telling me that. Zelensky commit MR. ZELDIN: But you infonmation don't know Ambassador Taylon's sounce of ? in -- so, again, my instnuctions about Washington politics. MR. HOLMES: He'd been do my job and not worny MR. ZELDIN: I to undenstand, but MR. HOLMES: And so that's the context. he was having intenactions not always bniefing wene me And so I was awane with Volken, Sondland, and Penny. that He was out on the specific intenactions, whether it call on an email. So I don't have fuIl -- thene's a lot of things I don't know, but what I do know is he told me that. MR. ZELDIN: Right. But just to be cIear, you don't know whene was a phone he got that fnom? MR. HOLMES: NO. MR. ZELDIN: Did that intenview -- actually happened, night? and that intenview neven r20 MR. HOLMES: Sonny, Zelensky's intenview with CNN, no. To my I haven't nead the anticle, Faneed Zakania discussing that intenview and its scheduling on whatnot. But I haven't read that yet. MR. ZELDIN: And the hold on aid was, in fact, neleased, connect? knowledger ro. I did see a headline this MR. HOLMES: It morning, WAS. five, Mp. Holmes, you say -- the bullet six -- on section six, fneezing of secunity MR. IORDAN: 0n page point -- on paragnaph assistance, the last sentence you say, while I'm not aware of testimony neganding discussions between Ambassador Taylon, Ambassadon Volken, and the Three Amigos. is mean, my undenstanding Am I missing something MR. HOLMES: Is thene a neason why you separated out Ambassadon Volken in that sentence is part of the Three why it's I Amigos. sepanated out? I'm sonny. Which panagnaph, sin, ane you in? It's MR. JORDAN: Page five. While I'm not awane of testimony -- MR. HOLMES: Ah. -- at the bottom of the section -MR. HOLMES: 0h, I think, sir -- so I believe that on July 19th, 2?th, Taylon testified that thene wene some intenactions, including with Volken. So I think that's why I singled him out thene, because MR. IORDAN: -- neganding I wasn't awane of that particulan one. And thene may have been othen ones, I don't necall exactly. But my point is, like, those were things I didn't know until I nead his testimony. MR. IORDAN: But thene was -- was there something significant, 72L so significant that you didn't view Ambassadon Volker as pant of the Thnee Amigos -- MR. HOLMES: No, MR. IORDAN: sin. Okay. No, sin. That may have just -- no, sin. Thank you. MR. HOLMES: YCAh. MR. ROY: Mn. Holmes, can you go back? I just want to go through a couple things. MR. HOLMES: MR. ROY: YEAh When did you speak to Mn. Taylor finst, aften the call that we'ne talking about hene today? MR. HOLMES: That would have been Is it the 6th, I I neturned. think? MR. ROY: August, the MR. HOLMES: Yes, that MR. ROY: the Tuesday aften Okay. And 6th? sounds night. in that convensation, how long did you aII talk ? MR. HOLMES: So we have a weekly-ish political first kind of deep dive on issues with the Ambassadon. And so that would have been day back in the office. And I went -- of the Political Section to sort of talk so we mone my bring a couple membens in depth about centain issues. I took a couple people, sat, I nememben whene he sat, and we discussed it. And I said, and, sin, befone I left thene was this caII, I want to make sune you'ne awane, and it was significant. Sonry. I'm at my finst day back, so 122 in that noom? So that panticulan day, I don't know. It MR. ROY: And how many people wene MR. HOLMES: , would have been my deputy, always unless she was not there, but I necall that she was. And then we usually bning the unit chiefs. Thene's thnee of them. But, again, business. I don't So nememben day. Knistina Kvien, also the sometimes people ane out on other exactly who was thene that particular DCM, would join if she was thene and available. MR. ROY: And was that whene you descnibed July 26th? the call -- MR. HOLMES: Yes. MR. ROY: -- fnom MR. HOLMES: Yes. MR. ROY: And what was MR. HOLMES: It his reaction? was a knowing nod, sont of a, yeah, that confinms what we've been heaning, you know, what we've been picking up fnom the sounces that I've been heaning. I'm interpreting -- you'd him what he heand, what he undenstood. But to ask the neaction -- MR. ROY: But he neacted and undenstood convensation have the natune of the ? MR. HOLMES: In a way that was, yeah, that's consistent with my undenstanding. that MR. ROY: Did you have othen convensations about convensation with Ambassadon Taylon between August 6th MR. HOLMES: So I nefenned back to nepeatedly. As we know, President -- my takeaways fnom and that incident L23 MR. ROY: With Ambassadon TaYlon? in the noom, Yes. MR. HOLMES: With him MR. ROY: And Connect. So I guess what I'm saying, sin, is I MR. HOLMES: didn't other times between August 6th and -- always say, you know, stemming fnom Sondland where he of things, that lunch with Gondon called the President and discussed aI1 these sonts we can conclude the following. I was just dnawing the conclusion fnom that. MR. Octoben ROY: And when did you talk -- Sth, when you was that -- it was last Fniday, talked to -- MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. MR. ROY: -- Ambassadon TaYIon about Yes. Novemben? Yeah. MR. ROY: I mean -- what did I say? MR. H0LMES: Novemben. MR. HOLMES: Novemben, Yes. MR. ROY: Novemben 8th, when you talked about youn potentially coming fonward MR. HOLMES: YCAh. MR. ROY: -- and talking about the convensation younself? MR. HOLMES: CONTCCI. MR. ROY: And you talked to Ambassadon Taylon about you potentially coming fonwand because of the impontance of the conversation ? I wouldn't chanactenize it that way. That week I was incneasingly concerned that I had something that was impontant. MR. HOLMES: No, t24 It was an anxiety of mine. I was wondening, you know, and what would I do with that and how would I do it. How do you -- I don't know how you appnoach an impeachment investigation hene. MR. ROY: But when you MR. HOLMES: Sin, leaving and he's he was he was going back. And a guy who's alneady been I think the fact that involved with the thing, Iike, led me to essentially say, sin, you knowwhat, I've been thinking about this and I think I've got something that's impontant. And that's -- it you that what -- ROY: And so then you explained to him the impontance -- your MR. view was of the importance of that convensation on July 26th and that -- and what was his nesponse again? I think you chanactenized it eanlien. Could you chanactenize MR. HOLMES: you on Yes. this incident, and his nesponse? So, you know, si.n, as you may it seems to me that now necall, I bniefed that people ane talking about whethen these thnee individuals ane doing what they'ne doing with of the Pnesident on not and the fact that thene's concenn about finsthand infonmation, in this 1ight, it seems like what -- that knowledge incident is And he more significant. said, yeah, you know, I'm not sune if you told me or I someone do necall something about that. else told me. And, yeah, I wonden if that is significant, I may mention it. I think he may have said that, I may mention that to my lawyers. And I left it at that. I did not say f'm going to come back on I want to come back on how do I come back. I just was -- it's my last t25 chance to tatk to this someone who knew about pnocess and to ain that concern. MR. ROY: You chanactenized the July 26th convensation as nemankable, exceptional MR. HOLMES: Yes. MR. ROY: -- so distinctive, constantly thinking it night? Is that a fain sir. MR. ROY: You've said that? MR. HOLMES: Not constantly thinking it was nelevant. As this pnocess was playing out, I'm a guy in Uknaine, it's highly nelevant, I'm neading the headlines mattens. I nelevant, chanactenization? MR. HOLMES: Yes, and was wonden MR. And in the back of if I and wondening my mind was if it will turn out that that that have something that was a distinctive event. was impontant. ROY: And one last question on that is -- weII, I'11 go ahead. Steve. MR. CASTOR: Oun time THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. is up, so -We'ne going to go to 45-minute nounds now. like to take anothen bneak on go stnaight into it? MR. HOLMES: If I could, it will be a veny quick bneak. Would you THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. Let's take a quick bneak. MR. HOLMES: Thank you. IRecess. ] THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go back on the Mn. Noble, the floon is youns necord. for 45 minutes. 126 I askjust one -- I was thinking more about one question, and I just want to clanify it if I could. MR. HOLMES: Mn. Chairman, THE CHAIRII4AN: could Certainly. MR. HOLMES: I'11 be veny bnief. I believe it I believe, sin, I you asked about whethen I discussed the 26th undenstood a question incident with othen people in the I discussed this, Zeldin, was Repnesentative you know, Embassy, and in staff I said, yeah, in genenal, meetings and whatnot. -- on clanify if youn question was, did I discuss coming back to testify with anyone else at the Embassy befone I discussed it with Ambassadon Taylon. I wanted to clanify I didn't. But I did have a convensation with Knistina Kvien about a week befone where to hen I said in a mone dinect way, I'm incneasingly starting to wonden if this is nelevant to the way the I want to investigation But I I make sune is wanted that youn question was shaping up. to not exclude that, because wanted to it develops. It was a meeting whene I guess wasn't any funthen than that, but I just said that to hen. And she said, oh, we'11 see how that I see what you mean. be complete. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Noble. MR. NOBLE: Thank you, Mn. Chainman. BY MR. NOBLE: a So duning about how you wene the tast round Mn. Zeldin asked you some questions -- you knew that Rudy Giuliani wasn't just acting 127 as a lawyen fon his private -- a personal client, the Pnesident of the United States. In youn statement, on page two, in the penultimate panagnaph on that page, you wnite that specifically oun diplomatic policy -- and this is back in March of 2@19 when you became awane of this -- had been focused on supponting Uknainian democnatic nefonm and nesistance to Russian aggnession became ovenshadowed by promoted by Rudy did you mean a political agenda being Giuliani and a cadne of officials openating with dinect channel to the White What a political a House. when you wnote that Rudy Giuliani was pnomoting agenda? A Again, we were told to do oun jobs, to implement the policy, kind of, as we undenstood it, and to disnegand all that othen stuff as stuff that was nelevant in Washington politics. The themes that Mr. Giuliani wene pnomoting wene undenstanding. In wene was promoting and in that basket, in my mind, those wene political things that wene my -- view. his associates And so that was my those wene things -- those not nelated to the implementation of oun policy. a Giuliani And what wene those political things being pnomoted by ? A It was the things I outllned in anticles that he and his associates Manch wene in these vanious media pointing to on were nefenencing. a So did that include the investigation of Bunisma and the 128 Bidens ? A a Yes, sin. And did it also include the investigation of the punponted Ukrainian interfenence in the 2016 U.S. election? A Yes, sin. a okay. Do you know whether there was any factual basis fon eithen of those allegations? A I'm not awane of any factual basis for eithen one. a okay. so whose political agenda was Rudy Giuliani pnomoting in Uknaine? A I came to believe it was the President's political agenda. a Okay. And why did you come to believe that? A Because Mn. Giuliani was pnomoting that investigations issue, which laten I came to understand, including thnough these vanious interactions, that was -- that the Pnesident caned about. a Now, pneviously, befone Uknaine, you'd been posted in Moscow as we11, night? A That's conrect. a Wene you familian with a pness confenence that Pnesident putin did in Febnuany of 2@t7 with Pnime Ministen Onban which pnesident Putin voiced the allegations had intenfered in the U.S. election in A I'11 take youn nepont that awane that he has said that, a Okay. How ane that it of Hungany at was Uknaine that 2OL6? he did it at that event. I'm Yes. you awane that Pnesident Putin has advanced L29 the theony that it was Uknaine who intenfened in oun elections? A I'm just awane that he said it. I don't necall the exact sounce of that. It nings a bell. a Okay. And why would Pnesident Putin want to advance that theony, which you said you're not fon awane that thene's any factual basis ? A Pnesident Putin, thene's not a factual sunmise, I to divide basis. would assume, that my view, advances But in he was many things fon which this panticulan instance I tnying to malign Uknaine Uknaine fnom the United States, key stnategic because Pnesident Uknaine back a in tnying aI1y, partnen, Putin, I believe his goal ultimately is to tunn to the Russian sphene Do you know why of influence. the Pnesident of the United States and his pensonal lawyen, Rudy Giu1iani, would want conspinacy theony and would to be pnomoting the same that the Pnesident of Russia was pnomoting? A I don't. a You nefenence a cadne of officials. Who wene you neferning to thene? A I'm sonny. Whene ane you a Sonny, in the same panagnaph. It that wene promoting the political says, cadne of officials agenda along with Rudy Giuliani. A Page two? a Yeah, the penultimate paragnaph, Iast line. A I mean, a genenal statement, I think, in refenence to the Three Amigos, as I've called them, who ultimately, as I understood it, 130 came to the conclusion that getting the Uknainians to that investigation a And you agnee to advance was important. said that Rudy Giuliani and this cadne of officials, including the Thnee Amigos, had a dinect channel to the White House. talhat wene you nefenning A to thene? That Rudy Giuliani, as I undenstand pensonal lawyen. He has a dinect channel Sondland. I in it, is the Pnesident's some way, according to witnessed him neach out to the Pnesident those thnee people were in at least one meeting in the directly. 0va1 Office they discussed Uknaine with the Pnesident. So that's what I A11 where had in mind. a Okay. Now, you've described for us today some of the Ukrainians' neactions to these events that you'ne testifying about. just explain to us kind of how you intenact with Uknainian officials genenally? A We -- so in my nole I would panticipate in meetings of visiting U.S. officials or senior embassy officials at vanious capacities, and people all the way down the chain in the embassy do the same. So alI the people in the political section who wonk fon me Can you would come back and nepont out on thein meetings with vanious countenpants, and that would be a sounce of infonmation we would integnate into oun analysis. a Okay. it Based on those youn understanding intenactions with the Uknainians, that they believe that the President of the United States? Rudy Giuliani was spoke fon 131 A I believe they wene awane that he's the Pnesident's pensonal attonney. And someone who is I believed that they penceived him impontant in -- an important in that nole to be conduit to the Pnesident. a Okay. And did you have the oppontunity to neview the text messages that Ambassadon Volken pnovided duning this inquiny? Have you seen those? A I believe I nead of them in Ambassadon Taylon's deposition statement. a Okay. WeII, maybe I'lI text messages, wene you awane intnoduced A f asked to a Yenmak to Rudy was this. not awane you awane Ambassadon to Rudy that Independent that Andney Yenmak Giuliani? Specifically be intnoduced Wene ask you Volken Giuliani, of those had asked to be he asked -- I was unav',are that he no. Ambassador Volken did, in fact, intnoduce to Giuliani? A Yes. a Okay. When did you become awane of that? A I betieve soon aften they met I heand that they had -- that he had annanged that. a Did you leann that fnom Ambassadon Volken? A I'm not recalling exactly whene I leanned that. I don't recall if I heand it dinectly fnom Ambassadon Volken. a I think in the last nound you testified that in some way Ambassadon Volken's noLe kind of oven time evolved on changed. you explain what you meant by that? Can 132 A Yeah. So let's say, pnion to the Manch events, Ambassadon VoIken was a very impontant senion penson in the State Depantment was on who a daily basis veny focused on Ukraine and helping us to I understood to be oun Uknaine policy. Stanting in Manch -- I'd say that continued until May nea1Iy, essentially until that May advance what 20th, the inaugural delegation, whene then my impnession was Ambassadon Volken saw Ambassadon Sondland and Secnetany Penny as useful fon him to help achieve his pnionities and his agenda, which langety was consistent with what I undenstood to be our policy pnionities. And this was in the context of a new administnation coming in and the impontance of the impnimatun of a meeting with the President. So especially Kurt Volker, felt that it was impontant who was wonking on the peace pnocess, fon Pnesident Zelensky to have the backing of the Pnesident of the United States as he engaged with Pnesident Putin that, you know, we supponted him and that the secunity assistance in panticulan was sound, as he was taking these risks to to show punsue peace. a Did you on anyone else that you'ne awane have concenns about Ambassadon Giuliani along with A of at the Embassy Volker's intenactions with Rudy Ambassadon Sondland? Yes. a Can you explain why? A Yes. So, again, Ambassadon langely tnusted, and we thought Volken was someone we knew, we were punsuing the same ends. And 133 then, testified, he's basically the two channels as diverging in tenms of thein goals and I think descnibed as Ambassadon Taylon has into conflict. And it was my impnession that Ambassadon Vo1ken was trying to minimize -- was tnying to manage things, was tnying to get the even clashing on coming Uknainians what he felt they needed and while navigating Washington politics essentially. And it was at the point when he annanged the meeting or played a nole in annanging the meeting fon Mn. Yenmak that I felt that he was leaning in penhaps too fan in that, leaning into the othen channel too fan. a I mean, can you expand on into the othen channel? Volken doing A that We11, What do you mean by leaning What othen channel? What was Ambassadon was naising I think that? this concenn? as we discussed befone, you know, Rudy Giuliani did not have an official nole. The Ukrainians penceived him to impontant in vanious ways, but he did not have an official be nole in that way. And so fon Ambassadon Volken Govennment to be connecting a Uknainian official with him, and, again, with the implication that talk and hean what he had to say and potentially take it seniously, that was, in my view, sont of leaning in towands that they needed to othen alternative channel. a occunned So that meeting between Andney Yermak and Rudy in Madnid in eanly August. Wene Giuliani you awane of that? 734 A That's my understanding. a Okay. Wene you awane at that time that Ambassadon and Gondon Sondland were wonking statement fon Pnesident Zelensky Vo1ken with Rudy Giuliani to help dnaft to deliven about Bunisma and the a 20L6 election intenfenence? A No, sir. As I testified, I didn't become awane of that until, I believe, until I read Ambassador Taylon's testimony. I was, as I said, I was sunpnised that it was that level of specificity in terms of what the ask was on what was being recommended. a Okay. And would you charactenize that as funthen evidence this innegular channel to push the Uknainians to go along with this political agenda? A Yeah, I want to be veny c1ean, I believe Ambassadon Volken of leaning into Ambassadon Volken had good intentions to tny to achieve things needed, to tny he thought the Uknainians to achieve impontant things like peace. I believe that. I believe as the situation became incneasingly clean that the investigations wene the thing that was nequired fon them to get the suppont they needed, you know, but that's, in Uknaine my policy veened into the I think, Would you agnee Volken, view when, again, advancing oun understanding a Okay. Ambassadon become, I can't speak fon Ambassadon more talashington politics Sondland descnibed clean, he descnibed it it, of oun lane. as you said, as becoming mone insidious. with that chanactenization? A I don't know. I don't know if I'd don't know. I 'm not sune. agnee with that, sin. I 13s Did anyone at the Embassy ever send any emails on cables a memonanda on othen documents reganding Giuliani back Depantment ? on to the State A I don't want to make a categonical statement and say, ro, I'm not awane of anything specific on Rudy Giuliani. But, again, I would also say, you know, we wenen't Amenicans wene doing in Uknaine. things, the senion people who in the habit of neponting on what And as we became awane of these would ondinanily need to be awane of those things were aware of those things. And so we would, you know, discuss them -- did you see that this and this? And to my And so lt Giuliani gave an interview today and said was known. knowledge, apant fnom the engagements with Mn. on other things engagements Rudy that have been Giuliani testified to, I'm not awane of other with Mn. Giuliani apant fnom the media intenviews and whatnot. Okay. 0n a page thnee and the top of page foun, though, you nefenence Ivan Bakanov - - A Yes. a -- coming was an advisen I want to to you to teII you that Giuliani had said he to the Vice Pnesident. ask you about some othen Mn. Giuliani had with Ukrainian awane Rudy officials, just of these. In Novemben on Decemben of communications he was having intenactions that whethen on not you'ne 2@78, wene you awane with we undenstand of any fonmen Pnosecuton Genenal Vikton 135 Shokin? Did you hean anything about that? A I have since heand that he had interaction with Shokin, yes. a Okay. But you wenen't awane at the time? A No. a Okay. What about with -- a meeting with Yuriy Lutsenko in New Yonk in lanuan y of 2OT9? A Not at the time, but subsequently. I can't tell you exactly when I became aware that thene was a meeting in New Yonk with Lutsenko and possibly -- possibly othens. a Is it fain to say that both of those Uknainian pnosecutons ane genenally considened A a be connupt? Yes. What about and Lutsenko that to a meeting in Febnuany at the Middte East summit in 2079 between Wansaw, on Giuliani the sidelines of summit? A Sonny, say again who? a Sune. Giuliani and Lutsenko. meeting A was hlene you awane of that at the time? So I heand a numon of that meeting, but I -- on my staff heard a numon of it of I think someone that meeting fnom a Uknainian. And so pnetty distant fnom firsthand infonmation. a Okay. What about a May 17th meeting between Giuliani and formen Uknainian diplomat Andrii Telizhenko in New Yonk? A Again, I was aware that Mn. Telizhenko was, how do I say, possibly tnying to get involved in these issues, but I was not awane 137 specifically of that a Can you meeting. explain what you wene awane -- what was to get involved, as you said? A So he's a consultant in Uknaine. Not clear to me what he consultants on. But he is one of these people who is sont of tnying Mn. Telizhenko doing, tnying to get access to impontant people. fonmen pnime So he's He worked fon Yuli Tymoshenko (ph), minister, fon a little while on some political pnoject. someone who pontnays himself portrays himself as having access to Uknainians as having access in in -- Washington, and believe in Washington as being a conduit to centain Uknainians. he actually does, I'm not sure. he I What 138 17:43 p.m.l BY MR. NOBLE: a Was Telizhenko pnevious posted hene at the Embassy hene in D.C. -- the Ukrainian Embassy in D.C.? A It's my undenstanding, yes. a And ane you familian with his neputation fon truthfulness on his chanacten? A We didn't meet with him at the Embassy. a Why not? A I don't think we found his penspective to be always credible and useful. a Wene you familian with a meeting in May of 2Ot9 between Giuliani and an Uknainian anti-connuption pnosecuton, Kholodnitsky, Nazar in Panis? A I did hean, again, that Giuliani had been in contact with Kholodnitsky, I'm not sune I knew it was in Paris on exactly when. a hJho is Kholodnitsky? A Kholodnitsky is the special anti-connuption pnosecuton, on the head of the special anti-connuption pnosecuton's office. This is one of the independent anti-conruption States and othens set up as part of institutions that the this chain of institutions that would investigate, pnosecute, Ukrainians of official So SAPO was buneau, and and United independent convict high-leve1 connuption. the prosecuton's office, then, w€, as I testified to, NABU was wonked the investigative to set up 139 anti-connuption count to a of Do witnesses a A those cases. you know whethen Kholodnitsky was involved pnomoting A try this political agenda cases all in kind nelating to the investigation? So Kholodnitsky was caught on in at a listening device coaching that he was ovenseeing. As a pnosecuton? Yes, sin. Yes, listening device in his sin. aquanium Subsequently, someone planted in his office. And a so, he was caught that, the Embassy -- I was not dinectly involved in this, but I'm awane of it. The Embassy decided on tape coaching witnesses. Aften we couldn't wonk with him anymone. You can't have an anti-connuption prosecuton who was caught coaching witnesses. And thnough a series of engagements that I was not dinectly involved with, but involving then-Deputy Chief of Mission and, I believe, Ambassadon Yovanovitch, Geonge Kent, and penhaps other people in the Embassy, they had a senies of meetings with him whene they essentially told him, You know, this with youn office. You should is unacceptable, we can't nesign. It was wonk a pnivate meeting. I don't think we met with him since. And then Ambassadon Yovanovitch, in a speech, I don't necall when, but in And so subsequently, the spning, a speech on anti-connuption essentially said that, know, you can't have an anti-conruption pnosecuton caught coaching witnesses, and it was taken as a was a kind of contnovensy fon that on not. you call fon his nesignation, and thene over that, whethen she should have ca11ed 140 When Pnesident head Zelensky came into office, he basically told the of SAPO and NABU, look I'm going to give you one mone chance, guys have to wonk togethen, I want to see nesults, and that's what we're waiting to see right a sometime And I you now. believe the speech by Ambassadon Yovanovitch, that was in eanly Manch? A Sounds night. a Is that night? So Rudy Giuliani pnosecuton in Panis in late May, this was met aften with this it connupt was known by U.S. officials that the pnosecuton had been caught on tape coaching witnesses in investigations. Is that night? This was the person Rudy Giuliani A a A was meeting with? Kholodnitsky? Kholodnitsky. Yeah, I'11 take youn wond that it happened in Panis on that date. a Right. Okay. A Yes. a Ane you familian with associates of Rudy Giuliani, Igon Fnuman and Lev Pannes? A I've leanned about them necentlY. a Okay. So you've nead pness neponts about them? A Yes. Connect. a But did you know at the time, like, back in the spning of 2019, on whethen or not they had any nole in helping Giuliani make t4t connections A and in Ukraine? Around I didn't wene encountened have any basis on which doing. identifying that time, I And to thein names once on twice, knowwho they wene on what they so, it wasn't until that peniod that I stanted them mone specifically with some of these activities. I that because it's possible that they have sunfaced pneviously in othen meetings, I just didn't know thein significance. It's possible. say And, again, Amenican citizens we don't, you know -- a Nonmally -A -- tnack the activities of Amenican citizens on repont Amenican on citizens. a Okay. Just going back quickly to the Januany meeting between Giuliani and Lutsenko. I think you said something that thene were possibly othens A a maybe Say at that meeting? it again, which meeting was that? Januany, between Giuliani and Lutsenko in New Yonk, that othens had panticipated. Did you say that? A Yeah. Again, numons, that I've heand that thene wene some interpreter there, penhaps othens, but I don't have specific infonmation. a Okay. I want to ask you some questions about Ambassadon Yovanovitch's necall. A a of all? Uh-huh. How long did you wonk unden Ambassadon Yovanovitch, finst t42 A a to So fnom my What is annival in August youn opinion of 2OL7 until hen depantune. hen penformance as the Ambassadon Ukraine? A She's one of the hardest wonking people I've even met. I thought she was incnedibly pnofessional, dedicated, detenmined. a And what about hen effonts in neputation fon pnomoting anti-connuption Uknaine? A As good as anyone known fon that. a Is it fair to say that fighting connuption unden Ambassadon Yovanovitch was among the Embassy's top pnionities in Uknaine? A It was among them, yes. a She was a huge advocate fon anti-connuption effonts? A Connect. a Now, wene you awane at the time of the cincumstances that led to hen sudden necall on April 24th? A In what aspect? a The events that 1ed up to her being necalled? A Yes. Yes. Yes, absolutely. a And those wene the media neports that you wene seeing at the time ? A Yes. As I testified, in eanly Manch, things changed considenably. a A followed Yeah. And we wene it closeIy. all wondening what that meant, and yeah, we 143 a that that's And wene based on been descnibed as to believe that being made about hen in the spring of The no neason smean campaign centain allegations about Ambassadon Yovanovitch. Do you have any neason A essentially a any of the allegations that wene 2@t9 wene tnue? specific allegations that I noted in my I testimony, have to believe they ane tnue. a Did you even hean hen badmouth Pnesident Tnump? A Neven. a Can you describe fon us -- so Ambassadon Yovanovitch is told to fly back on Apnil 24th, did you and othen people at the how Embassy kind of neact to this sudden recall? A stonm, So when she went back on I think we consultations, aften this media thought that that possibly meant that she was going to get neca11ed, which would have been extnaondinany. But in light of how extnaondinany what we wene seeing was, it was plausible. Thene I don't necall the timefname, but thene was a period in which she was hoping that Secnetany Pompeo would make a statement explicitly backing hen, and that statement wasn 't made. And then when was also, she was and called back fon consultations, that's - - without that statement having been made, that that's when a lot of us wene concenned that reading the wniting on the wa1I. a You said been extnaordinany just now that you believed at the time that it had fon hen to actually be nemoved, which is what ended up happening. And you wnote in youn statement anything I have seen in my pnofessional caneen. that it was unlike L44 A Yeah. So the media, the intensity and consistency of the media attacks on hen pensonally by name as a U.S. Ambassadon and the scope of the allegations that were leveled against hen, the intensity of that, I've Ambassadon anything necalled like that. And of the like that. And then, to have an because of this media campaign, I had neven seen neven seen anything I will say, howeven, that, of counse, it's the pnenogative to necall an ambassador Pnesident ambassadons who nepnesent him and he and to ensune he has tnusts them. That's why we wene wondering what was happening because a Pnesident can ambassadors. They can say, I just necall want a diffenent dinection, I want diffenent pensonally, a voice, pnofile, on whateven, you don't this media stonm, confusing to s solidanity with woutd say what and it is why this was so, I don't know, How did the Uknainians neact to Ambassadon nemovaL? A Yeah. I Which need us. a Okay. Yovanovitch' night? a So hen there was a lot of expnessions of concenn and while she was -- while this was happening. I guess that a lot of Uknainians wene essentially seeing it fon turned out to be, and they wene expressing thein disappointment thein solidarity with her fon that happening to hen, and then when she was necalled. I caught snippets of hen testimony this a point that she whateven it made that, was, succeed you know, to monning, and have that I agnee with media campaign, or in achieving her necall, and possibly 145 involving figunes like Lutsenko, who wene and veny deeply unpopulan because basically, YoU know, of the penception that disliked he was so connupt, so to have him succeed in that was a blow to oun anti-connuption effont. a Do you think it confinmed fon the Uknainians the Giuliani the connections that Rudy to kind of wield the powens which you said is had to the Pnesident and powen and his ability of the United States to achieve something, extnaondinany? A I think that's plausible. a You thinkthe Uknainians saw -- would have seen it that way? A I think it's plausible some saw it that way. a Now, Yovanovitch was necalled night aften Pnesident Zelensky was elected and befone he was kind the canny vacuum inaugunated. How did hen necall, that it cneated, affect the ability of the Embassy to out the thnee pnimary missions that you descnibed in statement and youn ? A Yeah. The Pnesidential election is a pnetty big thing for an embassy. Two nounds and then a panliamentany election, inaugunation in the middle, -- the Embassy these ane big, big events. an I think we like 20 obsenvation teams acnoss the countny to obsenve the actual poIllng day. 0un secunity office sent sent something and locatens had a screen where they wene located eveny moment and could tnouble. I mean, it's a big openation. And so to not have an ambassadon in that peniod, and you have -- thank goodness we have such a stnong deep bench to back that zoom in on camenas if they got in L46 up. But it has an effect, it has a negative effect in oun ability to do oun jobs. a And just going back to Lutsenko fon a second. In youn statement, yoU descnibe essentially an ax that he had to gnind against Ambassadon Yovanovitch A a ? Yes. Can you explain what happened that was kind of driving him to -- A Yeah. a -- want to get Ambassadon Yovanovitch out of thenei A Yeah. So Lutsenko was a big disappointment. He was, at one in prison fon a while. And people thought he had a lot of potential to come out of point, a dissident and opponent of the prion negime, that and do important things fon kind of the western Uknaine that wene supporting. It turned out he was sort of just a politician. was an even He aIly of Poroshenko, and he was promoting his own intenests. his appointment as a prosecuton genenal raised a 1ot of because he didn't have a lawdegnee, Ponoshenko had the law to enable him to appoint So So eyebnows, to actually change him. the context hene is Shokin, Ponoshenko, against his wi11, to fine Shokin, who was widely IMF we neganded as had corrupt, pantly to get the assistance that was used as levenage to get him out. And Ponoshenko then appointed Lutsenko, a veny close associate, and engineened the lega1 pnetext of appointing him. And he pnomised eanly on to punsue the refonms that Shokin was supposed to punsue and whatnot, and he just 747 didn't, he supposed just to neven did. and a vaniety He neven nefonmed the office like he was of things. things. A lot of these things happened befone my time, but I'm awane of this stony. So, he didn't do it. He didn't do it. And then oven time, it Again, I'm not an expent on all these became appanent that he was shielding al1ies fnom pnosecution, possibly enniching himself. a This is Lutsenko? A Lutsenko -- by some way and in the way he moved cases anound and whatnot. It was a -- yeah. So Ambassadon Yovanovitch was wonking issues, hand on anti-connuption who helped set up NABU, which Lutsenko viewed as a competiton altennative agency they could actually hold officials to account. wonking on he saw as enoding A11 didn't contnol, that the things she was his authonity. Ultimately, he wanted us to onganize high-Ievel visits to Washington fon him to boost his statune and his political viability in Uknaine, at a time when he was deeply unpopulan, and we nefused to do that, because he was not a good pantnen, and I think it made him angny. And I think, ultimately, natings was partly pnovide him a -- he thought, that platfonm to Duning he nealized that his low opinion poll I think, partly because we didn't bnand himself as a nefonmer. the U.S. delegation to Pnesident Zelensky's inaugunation on May 20th, they wene thene fon May 20th and May 21st. Is that night? A I believe so. 148 a And you nefenence this meeting eanlien with Secretany Penny list of names to the Uknainians? A That was on the 2?th. That was on the 20th. That was the when he provided a meeting with Zelensky, yeah. a Did you know what the list contained? A 0n1y what he said it contained. a Okay. A In his opening nemanks, in this meeting, he made a numben of points, and said enengy secunity is veny impontant to us, and he passed a piece of papen, and he said, this is a list of tnusted -- people I tnust, fnom whom I -- fnom which I necommend that you dnaw if you want input on -- on advice on enengy-secton neform. I have it in my notes. He handed over a Yeah. the paper. Have you tunned those notes oven to the State Depantment as well? A a pnoviding go Yes. Was thene any discussion in advance about Secnetany Penny this list of names to the Uknainians fon people they should to on enengy issues? A Not to my knowledge. a You weren't involved in any of those discussions if thene wene any? A a A Thene wene discussions befone But that didn't come up? But that didn't come up. the meeting. \49 a Duning the meeting with Pnesident Zelensky and the delegation, Lieutenant Colonel A Yes. a Do you to President Vindman was U.S. thene, connect? necall him bninging up, duning that meeting, advice Zelensky that he should avoid getting involved in U.S. domestic politics? A a He did say that. What did he say? What is youn necollection of what Colonel Vindman said? A I just reviewed my notes the othen day, and he said pnecisely that. He had a veny shont intenvention because he was the last of them to speak. And I want to say, I believe he said something about the peace pnocess on about, yoU know, we think diplomacy, whatnot. And he said, I want that's impontant, conflict to be veny c1ean, it's very of -- despite what might be going on, and this is at a time that we wene all awane of the media issues and Ambassadon Yovanovitch's depantune, neca11. He said, I want to impontant that you stay out make - - undenscone to you the impontance of staying out of U.S. domestic politics. that pant of the pne-meet? Was thene any discussion about pnoviding this kind of wanning to Zelensky to avoid getting drawn a Was into U.S. domestic politics? A I don't necaIl it have been, I They wenen't mean, each explicit being specifically discussed. It might of them had a couple things they wanted to naise. about what all those things wene, but it was clean 150 each of them would take a turn and naise a couple of things of impontance. He may have mentioned that, but I don't necall specifically. a back that thene was a -- aften the delegation got to the United States, a meeting in the Oval Office A a A a A whene, some Ane you awane on l(ay 23rd Yes. between the delegation and Pnesident Tnump? Yes. Did you get a neadout of that meeting? Not a fonmal readout. I believe I heand -- I can't but I believe Kunt Volker said it say from had gone wel1, and thene was unspecified concerns. Laten I heand fnom, in that meeting with Senaton lohnson with Pnesident Zelensky, a diffenent chanactenization of the meeting. a What was that chanactenization? A I believe he said he was shocked at the negative neaction -- Pnesident Tnump's negative neaction when they pnoposed essentially engaging President Zelensky to a A a show suppont. That was Senaton lohnson who said he was That was the chanacterization, yes. of any instnuction that Pnesident pnovided at that meeting to the Thnee Amigos? A I'm not awane of any instnuctions, no. Ane you aware a Okay. of Rudy Tnump Did you ever learn whethen there was any discussion Giuliani during that meeting? 151 A I don't think so. don Sonny, I don't think f leanned that. I 't Okay. a Ane you familian with an NSC dinecton by the name of Kash Patel? A I've heand the name, but only in a pness nepont in the last few weeks. a A You neven wonked with him? No. a Intenacted with him? A No. a this in So moving fonwand youn to lune 28th, and you may have nefenenced statement. 0n page 5, Taylon did not bnief Thnee Amigos, he me on eveny did teII me you wnite, that "While detail of his Ambassadon communications with the that on a June 28th call with Pnesident Zelensky, Ambassadon Taylon and the Thnee Amigos, it was made clean that some action on a Bunisma-Biden investigation was a pnecondition fon an Ova1 Office meeting. " And my question scheduled in to meet is, wene you awane that Ambassadon Volken was with Pnesident Zelensky duning a nefonm confenence in eanly Ju1y? A I aware of that, Tononto y€s. a How wene you awane that? A I mean, it was just -- we would talk about upcoming engagements that wene nelevant. Okay. Again, this is all in the context of tnying to find oppontunities fon Zelensky to meet the 752 Pnesident, and we thought, okay, if Zelensky is going to be in Tononto, penhaps he could come back thnough Washington; perhaps othen senior U.S. officials would be in Toronto. I don't necall we're talking about at that point. It who was anothen one specifically of oppontunities we saw to make that happen. And, ultimately, that Kurt Volken went to that a Okay. And I those I necalI confenence. should have asked you this, but wene you on that lune 28th confenence call with, finst, U.S. Govennment officials, and then Pnesident Zelensky? A I was not. a You wene not? A I believe Ambassadon Taylon testified that he was, but I was not. a at Did you even get a neadout fnom Tononto, like what happened Tononto? A No. Not that I'm awane of. a Moving fonward to the July 10th meeting that you wene asked about in the last nound? A I may have gotten it, I don't necall what it said. a Specifically? A Yeah, the substance of that. I don't necall knowing what happened in that meeting. It's possible I got a neadout and didn't take panticulan note of it. a Okay. Did you get a neadout of what happened on July 10th when Andney Yenmak and Oleksandn Danylyuk went to the White House fon 153 meetings ? A I did not -- I'm going to say no, because it was much laten that I leanned a lot mone things happened in those meetings than I was awane at the time. It was not until I nead the testimonies, the necent testimonies about some of the things -- calling the meeting shont and whatnot, Sondland's nefenence to the investigation. I leanned that fnom this pnocess, not at the time. a Okay. So at the time you didn't have any convensations with NSC staffens about what had occunned at the JuIy 10th meeting that you can necall? A It's possible that I saw a neadout, but not those elements. a Okay. And so any knowledge you have about what occunned thene A I now undenstand -a -- wene the mone necent testimony and pness neponts? A Yes, sin. That's connect. a So let's go to the hold that was placed on Uknaine secunity assistance. 0n page 5, you testified that you leanned about the hold via a secune video confenence on July 18th. Is that night? A That's connect. A You panticipated in that SVTC? A Yes, sin. a Prion to JuIy L8th, did you know that a hold had been put in place on was being considened? A No. 154 a A a So this was the finst you heand of it? Yes. What was youn neaction when you leanned that this hold had been placed? A I and I believe Ambassadon Taylon would subscnibe a A a A testified that we wene shocked, to that. Were you and Ambassador Taylon in the same room? Yes, with several othen Embassy staff. And why wene you shocked? is a linchpin of oun nelationship with Ukraine and supports them in their effont to stand up to Russian Secunity assistance aggnession, extnemely symbolically important as wel1, probably more provide Uknaine, although that's so than any of the othen assistance we impontant, too. of backing But a symbolism is veny important, it's one wene so impontant as we1I, of the neasons them on secunity issues that the javelin missiles the symbolic backing of them in the secunity sphene. So to suddenly hear, without wene suspended was extnemely a what, that security assistance had been longstanding U.S. Govennment Uknaine, and intenfere with the goals statement that those funds significant. And would withholding at least any prion wanning, that you wene trying to undenmine policy that you laid out in achieve? A In my view, yes. a Did you even have any convensations with towand youn 155 Uknainians -- Uknalnian Govennment officials about the hold? A Not beyond what I've testified to. I went back thnough all my notes on those issues. And thene was an issue about when they actually found out about that, and I don't We were aware at some exactly a have much to of it, tnying to figune out how to lift it. point, they became aware things when those two You said you, at of it, I'm not sune if I add to that. Sepanately, can te1I you convenged. some point, they became aware of it. Do you neca1l -- A I think -a -- when you leanned that? A I rememben, at some point, they assumed -- they likewise assumed that thene -- sonny. I don't necall -- I necaI1 neading in testimony thene was some explanation about when they might have to -- awane of it and in what way. There was a come Politico anticle, I officially. I believe some people might have suggested they knew befone that, but I don't think I had knowledge of whethen they did or did not know or when they came to know it. a Okay. Did you even leann the official neason why a hold had been put in place and subsequently lifted on Septemben 11th? A No. a So I want to move to JuIy z0th, Ane you familiar with a believe, that secure was when call that it became public Dn. Chanles Kuppenman, he was then the deputy national secunity advison, did with Oleksandn Danylyuk? 156 A That nings a bel1. I'm aware the the substance, and fneeze happened, I don't know I don't necall the -- That was 2 days aften the a call SVTC whene you leanned about the ? A Yes. a But you don't know what Kuppenman and Danylyuk discussed? A I don't neca11 having heard what they discussed. a Okay. So anound this time, I'm talking mid-July, Ambassadon Taylon has testified and thene are text messages to the same effect that he had had convensations with Pnesident Zelensky is sensitive about Uknaine being taken seniously and not menely as an instnument politics A a Uknainians whene they said that in Washington domestic neelection ? Uh-huh. Wene you heaning similan concenns fnom Uknainians anound that time, that this political agenda wene pushing on Pnesident Trump's that Rudy Giuliani and othens behalf was drawing the Uknainians into U.S. politics? A Thene's potentially two different things. I do think that -- a A Ambassadon Taylon's chanactenization sune, Yeah. lust fnom youn testimony. But Ambassadon Taylon nepeatedly, with these senior officials, was clean that -- was advised to stay out of U.S. politics. Alex Vindman made that point as well. In many of oun engagements, made the point that they should stay out of - - it's we not going to help 157 in U.S. domestic politics. That was a clean point we made on a negulan basis. So I believe they in the long nun to were awane that a was it Given to be seen that was an be meddling issue, yes. al} of the cincumstances that we've been talking about, youn impnession on announce these that the Ukrainians felt pressure to investigations, given the campaign that and othens were doing at the behest Rudy pnoceed Giuliani of the Pnesident? A I think the Uknainians gnadually came to undenstand that they wene being asked to do something in exchange fon the meeting and the secunity assistance hold being lifted. a Okay. So I think I know the answer to this because I asked you something similan earlier. Ane you awane July 22nd between Rudy Giuliani and Andrey of a convensation Yenmak anound setting up this that happened in Madnid in eanly August? A I mean, they met in Madnid, but a You weren't involved in the communications leading to that meeting meeting? A No. No. I did hean -- we1l, yeah, f don't -- I was not involved. MR. NOBLE: Okay. Thank THE CHAIRMAN: Would you you. My time is like to take a shont bneak befone next 45 minutes? MR. HOLMES: Yes. THE CHAIRMAN: IRecess. ] up. Let's take a shont bneak. the 158 MR. SWALWELL: IPresiding.] Okay. Fonty-five back to minonity. MR. IORDAN: Mn. Holmes. So }et's go back to the ca1I. MR. HOLMES: Uh-huh. MR. IORDAN: The of you call happens at the nestaunant, thene ane four there, but you'ne the only one that goes back to the Embassy, and back at the Embassy you talk to Ms. Kvien. Is that night? MR. HOLMES: Kvien, yes. MR. ]ORDAN: KViCN. MR. HOLMES: K-V-I.E.N. MR. IORDAN: K-V-I-E-N. A11 night. You talked to Ms. Kvien. tell me what you told her about that convensation again? Describe it, if you would, fon me? MR. HOLMES: I told hen the whole story. I said, You wouldn't believe what I just heard. At 1unch, Ambassadon Sondland puIled out his cell phone and called the Pnesident. And then I told hen the And of events that I testified to. MR. JORDAN: Whene you have it in quotes on page 5, things that Sondland says, things the Pnesident said, that's exactly how you vension heard -- that's the quote? MR. H0LMES: Yes, sin. Yes, sir. MR. IORDAN: And may have down did you come back, and nefnesh my memory, YoU said this eanlier, did you come back and write these things ? MR. HOLMES: NO. 159 MR. IORDAN: It's fnom memony? MR. HOLMES: YCAh. MR. JORDAN: Okay. this, in this level of detail, multiple times to vanious people, because it was so distinctive. MR. HOLMES: And MR. IORDAN: So I necounted the same things you have in youn testimony on page 6, you told Ms. Kvien on July 26th, an houn on so aften it MR. HOLMES: happens? YCS. All night. Did you talk to anyone else that day? MR. HOLMES: Sin, I have a necollection that I told whoeven I nan into -- not whoeven I nan -- but people, my colleagues who might have found this useful on intenesting about it in the same way. You wouldn't believe what I just heand. I was in this meeting when this happened. MR. JORDAN: MR. IORDAN: So Ms. Kvien knows? MR. HOLMES: Yes, I don't know specifically who was thene that I told, but I do necall telling othen people. MR. IORDAN: 0then people. Sevenal othen people? MR. HOLMES: Colleagues. MR. JORDAN: Yeah, but several othen people at the Embassy? MR. HOLMES: Yes. MR. IORDAN: Any MR. H0LMES: idea how many? In the time I MR. IORDAN: Two, was thene thnee, one? MR. HOLMES: Maybe two, sir. MR. JORDAN: Maybe two. in the aftennoon, maybe two. 160 MR. HOLMES: these othen Okay. There wene a lot of people away supponting tnips, these othen visits. MR. IORDAN: Okay. And then you go on vacation? MR. HOLMES: Yes. MR. IORDAN: Do you folks on vacation? to believe teII foIks, aside Do you call from family, do you te1I people up, and say, You'ne not going what happened the day befone I headed off to the -- wheneven you went fon vacation? MR. HOLMES: No. MR. IORDAN: You Week and a half? 2 MR. HOLMES: a trip, and I I oven the next, what is that? weeks? met do necall whene someone don't talk about it with up telling with a numben of fniends of mine for them that I was just pant of this lunch called the Pnesident, and it was, like, a really often. I didn't go into any level of detail because they don't know this stuff. MR. IORDAN: You told friends you wene sitting by an ambassadon who was talking on his ce1l phone with the Pnesident of the United extraondinany thing, it doesn't happen veny States, you told youn buddies about that? MR. HOLMES: Yeah. MR. IORDAN: How many people MR. HOLMES: neca1l Sin, again, I don't necall specifically. I don't specifically. I MR. IORDAN: did you teIl? was tnaveling with six fniends. Six fniends? MR. HOLMES: YCAh. L6L it's up to nine people. on the 6th, who all did you tell then? MR. IORDAN: So now I told In the meeting with Ambassadon Taylon, MR. HOLMES: and When you come back the othen people in that meeting would have heand it. him, So, as I -- sin, I don't necall who was in the room at that instance when I told them -- I guess what I'm saying is that -- I'm focused on telling Ambassadon Taylon, he's the penson I'm there to bnief. And I don't always know who else was in the room. But what I'm saying is that at that meeting that I used to bnief I said before, was my deputy Taylon, typically thene ane that scope of people in the Ambassadon DCM it believe Kvien, if she's available, my deputy, if three unit chiefs ln the political section, she's available, and the if they'ne available. I don't necall who was thene that day. MR. JORDAN: So potentially six people in that MR. HOLMES: noom. meeting? YCS. MR. JORDAN: That would be the finst time they heand it, at least fnom you? I MR. HOLMES: Unless nan into them eanlien that day in the political section, these ane my colleagues that I wonk night next to. If I nan into one of them thene, I might have told them. Sin, what I'm tnying to expness is I felt like f had an obligation to tell my supenvlsor. That's the specific instance neca1l briefing intenesting I someone and say it out. had to -- if Othen than shane that, it with people, was whene I distinctly just something if it felt night, to nun into they had an intenest in this sets of issues, my t62 colleagues, I might have told them. MR. IORDAN: Was this a negulan scheduled start-of-the-week meeting you had with Ambassadon Taylon and the people who were thene ? MR. HOLMES: So it typically it's a weekly meeting, but we don't always have eveny week, because events come up, and schedule to the diffenent times, diffenent MR. IORDAN: Any MR. HOLMES: idea how -- was sometimes shifts on the days. long the meeting was? Typically about an houn. MR. IORDAN: An hour-1ong everyone it meeting? Was this 1ike, you walk in, the 6th a Monday? MR. HOLMES: Tuesday. MR. IORDAN: meeting -- and Tuesday. this is MR. HOLMES: Yes, youn The 6th is a Tuesday. You walk into this first day back fnom vacation? sir. I got to te1} you something. I didn't get a chance before I left -- did you stant the meeting off with this? MR. HOLMES: I don't necaLl I did. So pantly, that meeting, in panticulan, I would have been mone in neceive mode because I have been away. So I would have used it as an opportunity to hean fnom my team the things that had been going on and oun prionities. Ondinanily, I MR. IORDAN: And was it like, Ambassadon, to go into that meeting with the ambassadon, and I would say, Sin, here is the five on six things that I think you need mone infonmation than you've heand in oun negulan intenactions. So would be the one 163 a slightly we do So to bnief that's on deepen dive. where I would have obtained the oppontunity fon myself that issue, whereas othen people would have bniefed on othen issues in thein portfolio. MR. IORDAN: How does Ambassadon in change, things in oun staff. the meeting nonmally wonk? Is the or is this like -- I mean, we do some of these I'm sitting the staff is bniefing down and me. is the typical flow in this meeting? MR. HOLMES: He sits down and says: What do you got fon me? Then, typically, I am the penson who's the head of the othen people in the noom and Which way MR. IORDAN: You'ne the guy kind of leading the meeting? MR. HOLMES: Yes. MR. JORDAN: And you'ne saying this August 6th day? You weren't leading MR. HOLMES: I didn't have the my case this time on it? WeIl, I would have been less like1y to 1ead, because latest infonmation about all the events that happened in the past week. I but that wasn't the that had deputy would have been been mone up-to-date on one in thing that I change had heand befone while I I left, was away and would have the issues that she thought the ambassadon hadn't lieand that he needed to hean. So I would have added that issue fon myself. MR. IORDAN: TelI me how a nonmal meeting works. Not the August 6th meeting; a nonmal meeting wonks -- this weekly meeting. MR. HOLMES: Yeah. 164 walk in the ambassadon's office? ]ORDAN: You MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. MR. ]ORDAN: You walk meeting in the ambassadon's office, a monning ? MR. HOLMES: No, but all MR. again, it can move -- I think it's usually 1:30, it often changes to accommodate his schedule. MR. IORDAN: And nonmally when it stants, You ane kicking it off, and, Ambassadon, hene's what we got for you, and you go thnough and you bnief? MR. HOLMES: I would, again, diffenent pants of the section I have nepnesentatives fnom who coven diffenent issues, and I would typically say, Sin, 1et's start with the conflict, and I got the external unit hene that covens that, and here they'ne going to bnief you on the levels of fighting. because we're keeping We always stant with the track of the hot wan in the east fighting bnief where Uknainians killed. We ane giving the latest casualty figunes and the tnends and all that. We usually stant with that. And then anything ane getting else in the extennal unit. MR. IORDAN: But you onchestnate can you bnief the so-and-so can you he needs to Ambassadon on brief on this, it. You're sayingr So-and-so, this, the situation and you just described, give him a full neport of evenything know? So you're the one kind of choneographing it and onchestnating it? Yes. But oftentimes, they are on the fly, sin, because things move pnetty quick. So whoeven is available to attend MR. HOLMES: 165 who thinks they have something to offen, need to be in the 0kay, gneat, I'Il this week? meeting I'11 say, Do you they'11 say, Yeah. I say, tunn to you, and you can say what you got. So I don't is always know exactly what evenyone my people And sometimes going to bnief on, but I tnust to bnief on what they think. MR. JORDAN: Got it. it. Got But you'ne the guy in change? You're delegating -MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. MR. IORDAN: You'ne Yes, sin. the MC, so to speak? MR. HOLMES: Sure. MR. IORDAN: But on August 6th you wenen't? You wenen't the MC, on wene you? MR. HOLMES: WeII, sir, it's still my section and I'm still nesponsible, but I would not have had the latest information about what happened heand So I in the past week, on know what the ambassadon in that week while I was away, my deputy would have heand might have been mone 1ikeIy don't you lead this one, to because But I have this thing that had on had not I say that. in that meeting, you know, why I don't know what's been happening. want to be sune you know about befone I left. MR. JORDAN: I guess what I'm getting at, you may not have had the latest infonmation, but you sont of had a pnetty big piece of information ? I did. That's why, sir, I'm saying in that meeting I necall bniefing hlm on that. I can't tell you if I stanted out and MR. HOLMES: 166 said I want what else to start with is my thing, on if I tunned it to -- and said, going on, and said MR. IORDAN: So I wanted to add my piece. potentially, six people in that meeting, at some point in that meeting, a meeting that you typically lead and conduct, at some point you told him about the MR. HOLMES: caII on the 26th? YCS. MR. IORDAN: And evenyone descnibed phone else was still in the noom when you the call? MR. HOLMES: YCS. MR. IORDAN: I AII night. Then you say in youn testimony today, also repeatedly nefenred to the call oven the next weeks and months and whateven? MR. HOLMES: Yes. In MR. SWALWELL: Mr. londan finishes, is making it convensations with my staff -- Actual1y, just fon the sake of the reponten, once if you could I hand and MR. HOLMES: I'm MR. IORDAN: So just answen because the cnoss-talk can see that. sonny. let me Thank you just fon pointing that out. rephnase it. So you said in youn testimony, after you shaned this with Ambassador Taylon and the othen individuals in the noom, you then repeatedly neferred to this call oven the weeks and months to follow? MR. HOLMES: That's connect. MR. IORDAN: And you've continued to do that? I want to be clear. I didn't always bnief the whole caII. Right? I would nefer -- I would say, you know, as MR. HOLMES: Yes, but L67 we knoh,, on as we learned fnom be hand fon us to that incident, you know, it's going to convince the Pnesident to schedule this meeting. That's what we're up against. So it was the conclusion fnom that that I I conclusions that dnew fnom dnew that incident that I -- one of the nefenned back to nepeatedly. MR. JORDAN: And do you know how many this times you nepeatedly bnought with people at the Embassy? Repeatedly up sounds like sevenal. it was an impontant data point. And so when it was nelevant, I naised it, I would estimate, and this is neaIly hand to do, maybe once or twice a week when it was nelevant. MR. HOLMES: When It was my view, and it wasn't, I didn't. MR. IORDAN: Once on to this call because MR. HOLMES: it had a beaning on how you were thinking and -- But, sin, I want to be veny clear. I didn't always caII, I said, say the twice a week, you would typically nefen back as we know, on as we've leanned, you know, the Pnesident doesn't cane about Uknaine, and canes about these othen difficult fon us as we do this. And some would say, oh, well, what if we go punsue, you know, things. people So it's going to be hypothetically, this WeI1, maybe, what we that the Pnesident might cane about? but I'm not sune that wiII scnatch the itch because of learned. So nefonm it's not eveny case that I MR. I0RDAN: Was you it bnought up again briefingthe call. in the weekly meetings that just talked about on the 6th that typically you onchestnate, on you kind was happen once a week of choreognaph and conduct, did it that happen 158 in those meetings oven the next sevenal weeks and months? I don't have distinct memonies of other times that to the ca1I, sin, but it was pant of my outlook, my point MR. HOLMES: I nefenned of view. it 1ikely that it came up in the weekly meeting? MR. HOLMES: Sin, I don't necall. MR. IORDAN: Okay. Any idea how many different people at the MR. IORDAN: Was Embassy you shaned and Pnesident this account of the call between Ambassadon Sondland Tnump? MR. HOLMES: Sin, I'm sonry to split hains, it depends on what I dlstinctly -- what I neponted already is the people who I've told there was this meeting, thene was this sonny, there was this event; thene was this call; he talked about this issue and this issue; and then we had this convensation, and I took away fnom it this, this, and this. I've only bniefed that level of detail on it. I'm only centain I bniefed that Ieve1 of detail on it to Kristina Kvien that same day. And I believe that I bniefed the gist of that, mone than the gist of you mean by this account of the call. that, to Ambassadon Taylon when I got back. I was confident that when f refenred to it subsequently that it wasn't the first time -- when I neferred to my conclusions fnom that call subsequently, I didn't need to say it was fnom this call on this date that I derived this conclusion. I refenned to it and people would nod thein heads. So I don't know if they then recalled if that was fnom the cal1, on if they wene just agneeing with my assessment, I can't 159 intenpnet that. MR. IORDAN: But you wene undenstood confident when you bnought it up, they that you wene nefenning to the call that you descnibed pnevlously? Sin, I 'm not confident that they MR. H0LMES: to the ca11. I'm confident that call I was raising my knew I was nefenning conclusions fnom the nepeatedly. MR. JORDAN: Okay. Mn. Zeldin. MR. ZELDIN: Mn. Ho1mes, on page 6, staying with the ca1l. MR. HOLMES: Uh-huh. MR. ZELDIN: You say, quote: Ambassadon Sondland neplied that, quote, "He's gonna do itr" end quote. Do you have any basis of to confinm that was fnom anyone in Uknaine as opposed to Sondland just stating that on his own? MR. HOLMES: I'm just reporting what I heand him say, sin. knowledge MR. ZELDIN: And did you hean the whole convensation Ambassadon Sondland and MR. HOLMES: As start of the call between the Pnesident, on just part of it? I've testified hene, I heand both sides when Ambassadon Sondland was pulling the of the phone away I did not hean both sides of the call fon the remainder of the call. But I heand evenything that Sondland said fon the nemainden of the call, and that fnom his head, and at was roughly when the some point, he stopped doing that Sweden MR. ZELDIN: How long MR. HOLMES: I pontion began. did the call last? think I said 2 minutes. and 770 MR. ZELDIN: How MR. HOLMES: Thene was a street but thene was a It noisy was it in the nestaunant at the time? -- was where I was on the othen side of sitting, it wasn't noisy. and I !, not directly, -- the nemainden of the tenrace, a small kind of waist high glass waII, a sidewalk, some cars panked, and then a noad. So -- I could distinctly hean everything that I've descnibed. I don't know if that might have impacted the othen two ladies and their it was penceptions. MR. ZELDIN: And just to be clean, was it just the foun of you at the table? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. MR. ZELDIN: 0n the top of page 7, you state, quote: Sondland neplied that he meant, quote, Ambassadon "big stuffr " end quote, that benefits the President, like the, quote, "Biden investigation, " end quote, that Mn. Giuliani was pushing. MR. HOLMES: Uh-hUh. MR. ZELDIN: I just want to undenstand an eanlien exchange that you had with Chainman Schiff. MR. HOLMES: Uh-huh. MR. ZELDIN: You said that was my undenstanding. What were you refenning to when you used those wonds eanlier? MR. HOLMES: I,M SOrrY. MR. with the ZELDIN: Thene was a question and answen about this eanlien chainman whene you nefenned understanding. " to the wonds, "that What were you neferning to? was my 17L MR. HOLMES: r -- MR. ZELDIN: Do you necalI? MR. HOLMES: I don't nememben what that nefenned to at what point I said that. MR. ZELDIN: I might get to that back one. MR. HOLMES: Okay. stated: I'm not awane of any factual basis in eithen investigation. Do you neca1l testifying to that a little eanlien with regands to the investigations? MR. ZELDIN: Recently you MR. HOLMES: I MR. on the ZELDIN: Is don't recaLl saying that. it youn opinion that thene was any factual basis investigation nelated to Bunisma, Zlochevsky, and the MR. HOLMES: Bidens? I don't -- I'm not awane that thene's a factual basis fon those investigations. MR. ZELDIN: Do you know what investigation the Bunisma and Zlochevsky was about? MR. HOLMES: So the issue, as I understand it, came up befone my time in Uknaine. There was no active investigation, to of those issues while I what investigation was thene. ane you nefenning I heard allegations about to, the question, I guess, is something that happened befone was new, I'm not exactly sune. this issue. I've nead about them, but on something they wene ]ooking fon So And so my knowledge, that I don't have any specific detailed knowledge about what may on may not have been investigated and what the judgment about whethen something should. L72 MR. ZELDIN: I'm just tnying to ask a simple question. MR. H0LMES: Okay. the MR. ZELDIN: Do you know what investigation Bunisma-Zlochevsky was about? MR. HOLMES: Sir, I guess I 'm tnying to say, it ' s my understanding thene was some kind of investigation befone my time, and I'm not sune if you'ne nefenring MR. ZELDIN: if if you'ne nefenning that you just stated that you've that was fnom befone youn to -- time. been reading about And I'm just asking you know what that investigation was about? MR. HOLMES: When if one on I'm neferring to the investigation that you have been neading about, an investigation to that I hean you say you mean a concnete one the investigation, I'm wondening that already happened, or a request that the Uknainians begin an investigation. So when I'm nefenning to the nequest that they begin MR. ZELDIN: So I say an investigation, one. the investigation, befone you get to Ukraine, that was the subject of a Vikton Shokin action, ane you familiar with that investigation? MR. HOLMES: MR. what the This is why I mentioned this. ZELDIN: I just -- of the investigation? Sin, I don't know which investigation. Let me be want to know whethen on not you ane awane of ane you awane MR. HOLMES: fain -MR. ZELDIN: Ane you awane MR. HOLMES: Sin, I am of any investigation? awane, but not in a detailed way, because L73 it happened befone I focused on these issues, thene may have been investigations about that issue in Uknaine, but that, and issues. on those you awane been one If I didn't have And dinect knowledge of that's it, why when you say I and was not a pant of I'm not an expent the investigation, of the investigation, the past tense, welI, there wene may have in the past tense that I'm not awane of. you'ne nefenning to the phnase, the investigation, and how it was coming up at this time, I'm nefenning to the nequest, the demand, to call it, fon the Uknainians to open a new investigation into what may have happened in that time befone f annived in Uknaine. So that's the investigation that I'm nefenning to. MR. ZELDIN: I'11 tny to wond it a little bit diffenently so that whateven you want we're clean. MR. HOLMES: Yeah. MR. ZELDIN: Are you aware even having an investigation MR. HOLMES: Sin, I've of this state pnosecuton in into heand Bunisma-Zlochevsky? that thene wene Iegal involvingthat issue, but again, I'm not I pnocesses an expent on those things and not thene at the time. was MR. ZELDIN: And mone Uknaine this past spning you testified that it of a topic of convensation at the MR. HOLMES: by the issue. WeIl, I want What became a Embassy, to diffenentiate cornect? became The issue? between what we mean topic of convensation at the Embassy was the fact that a numben of commentatons in the media, including people associated with Mn. Giuliani, wene pnessing for the opening of an L74 investigation into those events that happened pneviously, about which thene may have been pnior investigations. that stanted to MR. ZELDIN: When become such convensation, was thene any effont by anyone a topic of in the Embassy to lnvestigate the menits of the issue? MR. HOLMES: befone evenyone's So, sin, because time, it happened before my time, but not so we have people wonking on the Uknaine issue, bnoadly speaking, people like Geonge policy Kent, who wene involved in the issue and who ane expents on those things. And so, in many cases, we would defen to his judgment and expentise and his pensonal knowledge of those issues that he was directly involved with deeply stil1 involved, and the fact that he's in a senion position in tenms of oun policy. So those ane the kinds of things we would have -- you know, he would have had something to say about it and we would defen to his judgment. MR. ZELDIN: Was thene anyone in the Embassy at all who wanted and he was on did look into any of the menits of anything at all nelated to Bunisma and Zlochevsky? MR. HOLMES: Yeah. Sin, we wenen't aware of any new neasons to of the investigations pneviously, and we were not awane of any new neason to open an investigation. So of the univense of possible investigations of open an investigation. So we wene awane anti-connuption-nelated offenses and whatnot, that wasn't one focused on, because thene was not anything new time thene, it was fnom something that we were to that issue in happened before. our t75 just dismissed that, and that -- in those convensations this past spning? MR. ZELDIN: So you conversation MR. H0LMES: No, sin. We at the time and their thene defen to the judgment of people who wene judgment that thene was, you know, not anything new, no new factual basis fon the Embassy advocating fon a panticulan investigation oven all to weigh in on the othen possible investigations that they might undentake. It just seemed sunpnising that thene wouldn't be a desine to look into it if that is -- if it's such a big convensation around the Embassy. But a Iittle eanlien when it was aften oun nound, MR. ZELDIN: befone the start of the majonity nound, you went back to connect one of the answens that you gave to MR. HOLMES: Yes, sir. me. Uh-huh. MR. ZELDIN: And you mentioned that you did speak to Knistina Kvien. MR. HOLMES: Kvien, yes. did you speak to hen about? MR. ZELDIN: Kvien. MR. HOLMES: Yeah. So she would office, and we would discuss What sometimes just dnop by my issues, she would have a question, whateven it was. And she dnopped by my office once, and I said, You know, the way things ane developing in tenms of the media covenage of this impeachment inquiny, that I witnessed is it's stanting to make me wonden becoming incneasingly if that incident nelevant. And she essentially, not wond fon wond, but essentially said, Yeah, you know, I see youn point. It's interesting, we'l-I see how that develops. t76 She didn't give me any panticulan advice or say you should go back didn't say, yeah, you'ne 100 pencent night. We didn't talk about -- I didn't ne-bnief hen on the incident. I assumed that she necalled what I bniefed hen on previously. It was just a and testify. She natunal convensation about how things wene developing, and I was aining -- as I've said, aining my, you know, the fact that I on it, wondening if it mattened. my MR. ZELDIN: When was MR. HOLMES: I Ambassadon that believe it was focused convensation? was the Tuesday, the Taylor flew back on a Fniday, I'm sorry, week before I don't have the dates. MR. ZELDIN: So a week ago Tuesday? MR. HOLMES: He came back on befone that, so it was the Tuesday penhaps. MR. ZELDIN: And was you last Fniday, it a convensation just between the two of ? MR. HOLMES: Yes. MR. ZELDIN: One othen thing I wanted to ask you about is, thnoughout youn opening, you give testimony of things that you heard that one could say would be an attempt to build a case to suppont an impeachment talk inquiny, but you leave out infonmation. about the -- Fon example, you you nefenence the texts. MR. HOLMES: Uh-hUh. MR. ZELDIN: And that exchange that Ambassadon Taylor involved in, but you don't mention that Ambassadon Sondland was said that L77 told by the Pnesident, no quid pno quo. L,Jhy would you leave out facts like that, that help fill in some of the empty space that he was you leave in youn opening? MR. HOLMES: I've testified, in Yes, sin, I undenstand. So my stanting point, has always been, fnom my point Uknaine, whene thene ane things could potentially be nelevant to that I of view at the Embassy saw on was this inquiny. as And as a part of that I've testified, I took that seniously, that I might have a responsibility to nepont that. And so, I fo]Iowed othen people, the testimony of othen people, who wene in this similan position to me, and thein testimony, and I Iangely confident that the account, thein accounts, was with my And so I awane I leanned of. thought that the stony and, you know, what I had to offen available to this investigation. So that's why I focused Ambassadon Yovanovitch who was covening if consistent general sense of what happened, and, in many cases, things fnom thein testimony that I wasn't was wene you want Ambassadon to call it that, of on essentially the finst chapter, my involvement in this, and then Taylon, who was covening another chapten. And then I also in essentialty the middle pant whene neithen one of them wene thene, and I covened that whole period. So I wasn't necessanily looking at what Ambassadon Sondland, who I have -- I covened the incidents in which I may have overlapped with Ambassadon Sondland, but I was trying to give a full account fnom my point of view of potentially the nelevant events that I was involved added with. 178 confinmation Is it to say that Ukraine didn't have a of a hold on aid until after that Politico stony MR. ZELDIN: accurate August 29th? MR. HOLMES: sin. f'm not sune that is accunate, that is the finst public announcement of that that I'm not going - - I'm not sune that they hadn't caught wind of ways me just say, aware of. I'm Let this in vanious eanlier. MR. ZELDIN: And you nead Ambassadon Taylon's opening statement fnom Wednesday? MR. HOLMES: pnior -- fnom Actual1y, the closed I didn't. I nead doon. MR. zELDIN: Because what you'ne saying Ambassadon the one fnom the is contnadicting what Taylon stated. Sir, I haven't nead the latest statement MR. ZELDIN: Last question. In youn opinion, is this MR. HOLMES: impeachment yet. inquiny helping on hanming oun nelationship with Ukraine? it doesn't hanm oun nelationship with Uknaine. I'm not awane of - - I'm not aware that Uknainians have fonmed MR. HOLMES: I hope a judgment as to whethen MR. ZELDIN: I this undenstand what you want, now -- I D.C. , do you believe that this mean, pnocess helps on hunts our nelationship. I'm asking if night you're in Uknaine, we're not, we'ne hene in Washington, impeachment inquiny is helping on hunting that nelationship? MR. HOLMES: and have come Sune. I think some of the issues we've discussed -- that have been naised in the pnocess are issues that L79 they think affect the relationship. I'm not sune the pnocess itself is helping on hunting the relationship. MR. CASTOR: Mr. londan. MR. IORDAN: Sonny, Steve. MR. CASTOR: Absolutely. MR. JORDAN: you ovenhean the I want call, to you go back. So the 26th you have the caII, talk to Ms. Kvien that day. MR. HOLMES: Yes. MR. IORDAN: You mentioned in this first line, least two othen people that day in the in the haII on whateven. MR. HOLMES: Is that you talked to at Embassy, whethen you meet them accunate? YeS MR. IORDAN: And you go on vacation and you said thene wene six fniends, and you talked to those six friends about the call. MR. HOLMES: About any of the details. the fact of the caII. I'm not sune I shaned 180 [8:53 p.m.] MR. IORDAN: Fine. Then you had on the 6th whene Ambassadon Taylon the meeting when you get back is in the meeting, you'ne in the meeting, and potentially foun othen individuals. MR. H0LMES: Yes, sir. it nepeatedly came up whene you nepeatedly nefenned to the ca11. And I think you told me that was at least once on twice a week. Is that all accurate? MR. HOLMES: I hope this doesn't sound like I'm splitting hains. I nepeatedly refenned to my conclusions that I dnew fnom the ca1l. I'm MR. JORDAN: A11 night. And then you said not sune if eveny time I said, as I leanned in that cal1. at least sometimes. Is that fain? I don't distinctly nememben the times that I MR. IORDAN: But MR. HOLMES: nefenned to the call along with MR. IORDAN: Okay. Then the ca1l. my conclusions fnom thene's two of the times that you've talked about today that you talked about the caI1, and that was, again, a week ago Tuesday, on the 5th, with, again, Ms. Kvien, the lady you finst spoke to about the call MR. H0LMES: Yes, sin. MR. IORDAN: And then on Fniday the 8th with Ambassadon Taylor. Is that night? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. MR. IORDAN: Okay, so Novemben take me back. I 5th, convensation with Ms. Kvien. MR. HOLMES: Okay. want to go to the Tuesday, 181 MR. IORDAN: Tell me exactly what happened in that convensation. office. I don't reca1l if raised othen issues on not. And I was incneasingly, fnankly, I getting concerned that I might have something nelevant to the MR. HOLMES: She dnopped by my she was impeachment inquiny. I had bniefed hen previously on the call and she's my dinect supervison, I said, you know, Kristina, I'm stanting to wonden if what I heand might be relevant to this And so, because MR. IORDAN: She's youn boss. MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. MR. IORDAN: And you bring up this call MR. HOLMES: YCS. MR. JORDAN: -- that you had finst told hen about. MR. HOLMES: Yes. MR. IORDAN: And what MR. HOLMES: She did she teII you to do, as youn boss? didn't give me any specific instnuctions. She said, I see your point, I guess we'IL have to see how this develops. MR. IORDAN: Did you of Congness in tell hen you might be testifying in fnont an impeachment inquiny? MR. HOLMES: Sin, I hadn't -- I was wondening if the infonmation to the point yet whene I knew that lt was and then stanted to think that I need to go testify and how I do that and how I arrange that. I hadn't gotten to that point yet. was impontant. I had not gotten MR. IORDAN: So she MR. HOLMES: No. didn't give you advice one way on the othen? L82 MR. IORDAN: Then you talked to Mn. Taylor on the 8th. MR. HOLMES: Yes. Tell me about that convensation. MR. HOLMES: I was in his office. MR. IORDAN: Did you go thene specifically to bning this MR. HOLMES: No. We wene having anothen convensation in MR. IORDAN: office -meeting things We ho, we wene having anothen meeting, not in in anothen place and then -- and I office, had on my my another list sonny. were having another meeting and I nememben chance that me. And I didn't get the was weighing on it in whateven that meeting was. to his office And so was something chance on I you know, I fongot to walked with him back and said MR. IORDAN: coming hene thinking, to naise this with him. It this might be my last naise my up? It might be the last chance because you knew he was to testify? in the days pneceding, the week pneceding, it had become incneasingly appanent that this might be important infonmation. And so he's the only penson I knew who was MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. And because actually pensonally involved in this pnocess. I've neven been involved in an impeachment pnocess. I don't know how it works. I don't know how -- so if I wene to come to the conclusion that I thought this was impontant infonmation, I would Look, still need to know how you even do And he was alneady this. involved, and so I said, sin, I'm stanting to 183 think it might be nelevant. wonden, maybe you're night, I And he said, as I've testified, oh, I might mention that to my lawyens. And is he did, and I'm testifying. MR. IORDAN: It was that sort of a convensation, you said, Ambassadop, I'm concenned about this, I'm thinking about testifying. my undenstanding And he said, Iet me MR. HOLMES: talk to Sin, my lawyens and I'11 give you some advice. I did not say I was thinking about I said, in the context of this impeachment inquiny -MR. IORDAN: Is it fain to say you wene thinking fonwand about coming ? MR. H0LMES: of testifying. coming I have never desined to come fonwand for the purpose fonwand. I would cneate an have wondered whethen obligation for me to come I might have something that fonwand. I incneasingly came to the conclusion that I might have something that would cneate an obligation to come fonwand, and it concerned me. I hadn't yet concluded that it was something that I had an obligation to bning fonwand. I mentioned to him, I think this is becoming incneasingly significant. I did not ask him if I should go testify. I did not ask him his advice. And I did not say I intended to testify. And I did not say, I think f've got an obligation to testify. I just neminded him of this convensation and my increasing nealization that it might be nelevant. MR. IORDAN: and I'11 get back Okay. with And you. his counsel was, 1et me talk to my lawyens 184 MR. HOLMES: He said, I think I might have to mention that to my lawyens. didn't say 1ike, you know, do what you think's night, do what you think's best, let me go to talk to Ms. Kvien, and MR. IORDAN: He her and I, as youn bosses, we'l1 give you some counsel, that none of ? I didn't ask him for advice. I didn't say, do you think I should go testify? I didn't say, do you think I have an obligation to nepont this? I just made the point, analytical point, that it seemed to me that it was becoming incneasingly nelevant. MR. IORDAN: Okay. And one last thing. So now we'ne all the way MR. HOLMES: up Sin, to last Fniday. Is thene anyone else that you spoke to about the ca11, not counting youn lawyen, of counse, but anyone else you spoke to about that between MR. HOLMES: Fniday and today? NO. MR. JORDAN: The last time you talked about the call with else othen than youn counsel was a week ago Fniday his thoughts on you 1et him Ambassador Taylon anyone when you asked know you wene thinking about this? MR. HOLMES: been talking about this a 1ot, so I'm anyone else I talked to specifically about Sin, we've trying to nememben if thene's the call. I -- when I explained to people I may be I said, you know, there may be something I to the investigation. But at no point did going back to testify, that's nelevant ovenheand I te}I -- give anyone the 185 full account of that incident. just fon the recond. When you said "we" and you pointed to youn attonney, MR. SWALWELL: Mn. Jondan, wene you talking about you and your attonney? MR. HOLMES: I was, yes. Yes, sin. MR. IORDAN: MR. HOLMES: attonney neminded I Steve. 0h, I'm sonny, YoU want to go to Chip? Okay. Sln, Mn. Jondan, that's a fain point. My me that I accepted the date you postulated fon when that convensation with Knistina Kvien. I don't necall that it was specifically that date. I necall that it was about a week before Ambassador Taylon left. I think it could have been that day, but I'm not entinely sune. It was about a week had befone. If -- wene you -- if you wenen't asking fon counsel on -- why did you teII Ambassadon Taylon if you wenen't seeking his advice or counsel on okay on -- I mean, why go tell him? And, fnankly, fon that matten, why te1l Ms. Kvien? If it's youn decision and -- why MR. JORDAN: go talk to both of them? MR. HOLMES: These ane people who wene aware of the call and the context and wene my colleagues and we discussed things. And this is something that was weighing on me. And so I was aining my concenn, my view. I mean, but you didn't -- you weren't asking fon, what do you think I should do? Did you ask that? MR. IORDAN: MR. HOLMES: No. 186 MR. JORDAN: Okay. BY MR. CASTOR: a The State Depantment, they testifying A a didn't tny to prevent you fnom hene today? No, sin. So once you decided that you needed to get a lawyen and come fonwand, nobody gave you any issue? A Cornect. a I was going to say give you shade, but maybe that's not the night tenm. MR. SWALhIELL: That MR. HOLMES: will come in the fonm of a tweet next week. It wouldn't be the finst time today. BY MR. CASTOR: a Senatons about A a wnote to A a become familiar with a letten to Ane you Lutsenko fnom a bunch of the Muellen pnobe? It doesn't ning a beI1, sin. Okay. So in May of 2OL8, Senatons I if Lutsenko, and wondered Menendez, Leahy, Dunbin you wene familian with that? I'm not. Okay. So nobody at the Embassy talked about it on it didn't an issue fon youn section? A Not that f necall, sin. a Okay. 0n page 3 of youn statement, the last sentence, Mn. Lutsenko said that the veny first panagnaph, Ambassadon Yovanovitch's posting in Kyiv, she would face "serious pnoblems" in the United States. L87 A a A a A Yes, sin. the senious pnoblems is in And quotes? Yes. Whene did that come fnom? that's quoting -- okay. A meeting between an Embassy contact and anothen Embassy officen who -- so in that meeting, the Embassy contact relayed that he had had, you know -- he was dninking So with Lutsenko fon 3 houns the night befone and Lutsenko had aired these issues. And he'd nelayed that Lutsenko -- these ane the nelayed what Lutsenko said. a Okay. And any mone context to what "senious pnoblems" meant ? A No, sin. a Okay. And was thene any initiative to try to neverse Lutsenko's effonts here on a mone Embassy-wide basis? A So I guess what I would say, sin, is I've since become awane thnough Ambassadon Yovanovitch's testimony, an indication, I think maybe about I believe, that she had 2 weeks eanlier a Right. A -- fnom a mone senion official in the Ukrainian Govennment. This is the "watch youn back" quote. a Right. A I was not aware of that at the time, so what I'm neporting hene is the finst time I was made awane of this. And I can't say whether she took that up in any way with penhaps oun secunity personnel and 188 in light of the way she's descnibed that, I. wouldn't be -- and knowing her -- I wouldn't be sunpnised if a1l that. taken But some know, fnom thene, that A had action when she heand that. a Okay. Was thene even any considenation to calling out, you she Lutsenko the Embassy penspective, you know, night then this is, you know, outnight and lies on -- of the allegations thene centainly was. But on -- weII, that wasn't a public thing that he said, the senious pnoblems. You'ne nefenring to the broaden scope. We11, on one a Okay. The bnoaden scope, that's night. A Yeah, the bnoaden scope. So, yes, so thene was a statement out of the Depantment a That was out of Washington, though, night? A It was, yeah. But oftentimes, it's the Embassy that will basically identify that as an issue and look fon us up by neleasing a statement themselves. a Okay. Emba s sy Washington to back Yeah. But Lutsenko was never engaged dinectly by the ? A Not in the context of this set of events, as fan as I know. He was -- we met him pneviously on other issues until a centain point when it seemed like meeting him wasn't getting us very far. A11 he naise his profile in the United States. wanted to do was to get a Okay. And then just a question about the neading that you've been doing about this investigation. You've nead news accounts? 189 A a Uh-huh. And MR. SWALWELL: MR. HOLMES: Is that a yes on no? I'm sonny. Yes. BY MR. CASTOR: a And you said you've nead some of the opening statements on all of the opening statements that have been neleased? A So in thein entinety, I believe I've only read Ambassadon Yovanovitch, Ambassadon Taylon's deposition opening statements then news neponts of the pnoceedings. been neleased, hundreds and hundreds of those things. But I I know that the testimony of pages. I've have not gone and has nead news neponts to the oniginal sounces. a So you haven't nead complete tnanscnipts? A No, sin. a lust news accounts? A Connect. a And then a couple of the opening statements? A Connect. MR. CASTOR: Okay. I'm done. MR. SWALWELL: We'ne going just so we can get aII of to us out keep going if you'ne okay with of hene. I don't think that, we have too much more. So one of youn colleagues, Cathenine Cnoft -- is? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. do you know who she 190 MR. SWALWELL: As it nelates to when the Ukrainians found out about the secunity assistance being held up, she said she was impressed with thein tnadecnaft as fan as finding things out. Is that how you would judge the Uknainians as fan as finding out what's going on in the U.S. as it nelates to them outside what you'ne telling them? this is an unclassified discussion, we're not going to discuss in detail thein tnadecnaft. But as a genenal matten, I'd say some things -- sometimes I'm sunpnised what they know MR. HOLMES: and othen times Mindful I'm sunpnised what they MR. SWALWELL: Mn. don't know. Zeldin eanlier suggested you might be hene to build a case to suppont an impeachment inquiny. Is that how you view youn testimony today? all. I think it's my duty to be hene, based on what I know and the significance it seemed to have acquined. MR. HOLMES: No, not at MR. SWALWELL: You MR. HOLMES: In didn't go to the pness about what you knew? my Foneign Senvice caneen, I have neven gone to the pness about anything. MR. SWALWELL: And like despite seeing that administnation officials to honon the Mick Mulvaney, lohn Bolton, Rick Penny have nefused nequest to panticipate in this investigation, you have decided to f1y from Uknaine hene MR. HOLMES: to answen oun questions? I'm awane that thene ane a numben of people closen to these events on a mone negulan basis than out what I was involved with. who ane I am. I 've neponted 191 MR. SWALWELL: Ane you a Neven Trumpen? MR. HOLMES: No. MR. SWALWELL: You mentioned say to Pnesident Tnump, Zelensky that you heand Ambassadon Sondland will do, quote, quote. Did you interpret that to mean anything you ask, end that Pnesident Tnump has Ievenage oven President Zelensky? I don't know if I intenpnet that statement to mean he has leverage over him. I think I intenpnet that statement to mean that President Zelensky was open to doing what he felt he needed to MR. HOLMES: get what he wanted. MR. SWALWELL: And as an expenienced educated diplomat, centainly in what's going on in Ukraine, Zelensky to offen in the way of a White assistance. Is that night? Tnump had needed what Pnesident House meeting and secunity MR. H0LMES: Yes, sin. MR. SWALWELL: You also mentioned that on the July 26th meeting with Pnesident Zelensky, Pnesident Zelensky nefenenced that thene wene sensitive issues that Pnesident Tnump bnought Do you up thnee diffenent times. did not addness those necall that? MR. HOLMES: Connect. MR. SWALWELL: And Pnesident Zelensky sensitive issues with you. Is that night? MR. HOLMES: penson Connect. He said, I would need to take them up in with the President. MR. SWALWELL: And did you take that to mean that he had business 792 to do with was going the Pnesident of the United States, but no one in that to be involved in what that business noom was? Yes. And I would also say that in pnepanation fon my testimony, I was stnuck, in netnospect, at the extent to which the Uknainians we met with on a negulan basis seemed to not naise those MR. HOLMES: issues with the Embassy pensonnel and they confined that to a diffenent in tnack which Mn. Yenmak was veny prominent. MR. SWALITIELL: And as othen witnesses in publicty descnibed either a two-tnack system this investigation have with Uknaine on a negulan channel and an innegulan channel, as Ambassadon Taylon descnibed, is that what you perceived by President Zelensky's statement? MR. HOLMES: YCS. MR. SWALWELL: And discussing those, quote, sensitive issues with Pnesident Tnump, quote, in penson, would that be in the negular channel on the innegulan channel? MR. HOLMES: I guess I would say Pnesident Zelensky would be whene those channels would come togethen, and Mr. Yenmak would have been one of his most close -- closest, tnusted emissaries. MR. SWALWELL: And he is -- meeting immediately following night and Mr. Yenmak had a one-on-one that meeting with Mn. Sondland. Is that ? MR. H0LMES: Connect. MR. SWALWELL: You was said that multiple times Pnesident Zelensky told by you and othens to, quote, stay out of U.S. politics. Is that night? 193 MR. HOLMES: Connect. MR. SWALWELL: Now, the Pnesident's lawyen, Rudy Giuliani, said in May of this yean that he was going to Uknaine on he sought to to Uknaine not to meddle in an election but to meddle in an investigation. Do you nememben that quote? MR. HOLMES: I do necall that quote, yes. MR. SWALWELL: And politics. go that is the opposite of staying out of U.S. WouId you agnee? MR. HOLMES: Is that Giuliani MR. SWALWELL: YCAh MR. HOLMES: coming to Uknaine -- -- -- to involve himself in -- to pnomote Uknaine's investigation? So'MR. SWALWELL: And Iet me, I guess, 1et me back Giuliani is successful as Pnesident Tnump's lawyen to up. If Mn. meddle in investigations with Ukrainians, that would be the opposite of staying out of U.S. elections. Would you agree MR. HOLMES: I guess meddling I in Uknainian affains would say with that? that Giuliani by asking them to was sont of open an investigation that would -- could be penceived as meddling in U.S. politics. MR. SWALWELL: And that would -- and you'ne telling them to stay out of U.S. politics, MR. HOLMES: connect? CONTCCI. MR. SWALWELL: And what Mn. Giuliani was saying was contra to what you wene advising them? MR. HOLMES: We neganded the Uknainians -- we understood the L94 significance of opening a new investigation of the Bidens Bunisma as being motivated pnimanily by a domestic U.S. political concenn, because we wene not awane of anothen neason, new neasons andlon facts on othen to initiate a new investigation. MR. SWALWELL: Now, aften you heand that call between Pnesident Tnump and Ambassadon Sondland whene Pnesident Tnump invokes the investigations, did you ever again advise Pnesident Zelensky to stay out of U.S. politics? MR. HOLMES: I distinctly necall advising Yenmak to stay out of U.S. politics, and it was a consistent theme of oun messaging. I'm not sune if I can neca1I anothen time when we specifically said to Pnesident Zelensky the same message. But what nepeat I will say -- not repeat it is he undenstood back that to us, but he would say things 1ike, I've got enough pnoblems with Russia meddling in I want to message, because he would go meddle in someone else's my elections, election? I why would mean, he had intennalized the point. MR. SWALWELL: So you agnee that the Pnesident of the United States sets the foneign policy for the United States? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. MR. SWALWELL: You heand July 26th te1l the was Ambassadon the Pnesident of the United States on to the Eunopean Union that his pnionity investigations as it nelated to the Uknainians, essentially. Is that night? MR. HOLMES: Yes, sin. 195 MR. SWALWELL: And Pnesident after that phone of Uknaine's emissany in Yenmak caI1, you'ne telling the something that is counten to what the Pnesident of the United States is saying. Is that night? MR. HOLMES: Sin, we neven MR. SWALWELL: Let me back -- up. Let me back up. MR. HOLMES: Okay. MR. SWALWELL: Did you teII him to stay out of U.S. politics despite that -- did you teII what the Pnesident States said on JuIy 26th because you believed it Mn. of the United was wnong and unlawful fon a Pnesident to ask what he was asking of the Uknainians, do you have to -- ane you obliged MR. HOLMES: To Yenmak to follow an unlawful meaning orden? our knowledge, the Pnesident never communicated that opening an investigation was a policy pnionity that should be punsued by any element of the United States Govennment. MR. SWALWELL: You MR. HOLMES: didn't leann that until Septemben 25? That's connect. To my knowledge, he did not, through the intenagency pnocess on in some fonmal instnuctions fon agencies of the United States way, issue Govennment and embassies to go deliven a message to that govennment to open an investigation. That would have been what I would negand as the nonmal ovenseas pnocess. The fact that he naised it in a phone call made us wonden, you that, because we've neven heand that. We neven heand a nationale fon that. We never heard it explained to us. We've neven been tasked with it. know, ane we supposed to be pnomoting 195 MR. SWALWELL: If you wene asked by the Pnesident of the United States to be a pant of an investigative scheme with the Uknainians for the Pnesident's political opponent would you have panticipated MR. HOLMES: We -- so myself. I in the -- inside the United States, in that? it's a hypothetical, but I can answen fon would have naised concenns -- MR. SWALWELL: MR. HOLMES: WhY? -- thnough the chain of command fon two neasons. Qne, because, as a genenal matter, you know, Uknainians and other countnies have been accused of meddling That was a pnoblem. That was considered that to be a pnoblem. fon them to do that on to walk into that would have been a pnoblem And so fon -- people in U.S. domestic politics. Uknaine. So that's something we would have to consider, I think. And a pant of oun job would be to say, ane we Sune we want to do this? Let's this. Let's look at the implications of encounaging them to do that. So that, I think -- that's the main neason. But a1so, I would have just had concenns. It doesn't sound like consider that is an appropniate thing to ask a country to do, to take actions that could be regarded as meddling in oun politics. It at least would have been impontant to have a convensation about this that's and to something undenstand the instnuctions betten, to undenstand how -- that they wene appropriate. MR. SI^,IALWELL: Ane you awane MR. HOLMES: I AM. of the Hatch Act? 797 MR. SWALWELL: And the Hatch Act pnevents you fnom using youn official capacity to advance any Fedenal officeholden's polltical intenest. Is that connect? MR. HOLMES: In genenal, that's my undenstanding, yes. I'm not an expert on the Hatch Act. MR. SWALWELL: MN. NOb]C. 198 BY MR. NOBLE: a So I'11 tny to keep this bnief, and we'lL just do a lightning nound. Finst of all, when you wene on vacation and you told youn friends about the lunch you had with Ambassadon Sondland, you the contents of the A a A a didn't disclose communication No. between Pnesident Trump and Ambassadon Sondland, did you? No. And going back to Januany 2OL9, the meeting between Rudy Giuliani and Yuriy Lutsenko, did you even hean numons on leann any infonmation to suggest that Pnesident Tnump may have panticipated via telephone on that -- duning that meeting? A I had not heand that. a So now, I want to go through some of the things you said in youn statement, just ask you a few questions. So if you tunn to page 7, when Ambassadon expnessed, you Bolton came to Kyiv at the end of August, he said, fnustnation about Mn. Giuliani's influence with the Pnesident, making clean there Can you expand on was nothing he could do about that? What did Ambassadon Giuliani's influence on the Bolton say about it. Rudy Pnesident? I said thene and not a lot mone than that, except fon the othen things I neponted nelated to that. A Almost exactly what a Was thene a discussion about whethen thene was anythi.ng that you all in the official negulan foneign policymaking channel could do 199 to stop what Rudy Giuliani was doing? Is that why Ambassadon Bolton said that he didn't think there was anything he could do? A I undenstood this to mean that Rudy Giuliani had input with the Pnesident on these issues and, fon whateven reason, people like -- did not assess they could change that dynamic. did give advice to us to send a finst-penson nepont. Bolton wene not He a That's the cable? A Yes. As I testified, as sont of the best we could do. a And it sounds like Ambassadon Bolton was also fnustnated about Ambassadon SondLand's noLe in Uknaine. Did he give any mone specifics about what was fnustrating? A I've that specifically as hene. This was a convensation while we'ne waiting. Between meetings in a hold noom almost neponted it we're waiting fon another meeting, and so, was not an extensive discussion. a Did he mention anything about a drug deal that Sondland Mulvaney had been cooking A I'm awane that a Then if but not in Munphy, came and up? he's allegedly used that phnase in anothen context, not in this particulan meeting. you tunn to page 8, when the Senatons, Johnson and to Kyiv on Septemben 5th, Senaton Johnson, you said, explained that he was shocked by Pnesident Tnump's negative neaction duning the OvaI Office meeting on May 23nd. Is the Senaton actually used, Senaton lohnson A Yes. "shocked" the wond that used? 200 a Okay. And did he explain Tnump's what reaction to what the delegation why he found A He -- was why he found Pnesident telling him about Uknaine, that shocking? didn't specify, but the context of that remark was Senaton lohnson communicating to Pnesident Zelensky that he had -- that President had negative views about Ukraine, and that difficult fon him to change those views. He used it would the be the shocked allusion as a justification for why he felt that way. a And so at this point, Septemben sth, it U.S., or President Was Tnump, had placed a hold on was public that the the security assistance. thene any discussion duning that meeting with the Senators about what the Uknainians could do on had to do to get the hold lifted? A No. Zelensky opened by asking about it, and they wene trying to give neassunance that -- they hoped the Pnesident would lift it. They weren't sune why it was imposed. But they stnessed that because of the bipantisan suppont fon hoped of Uknaine in the Congness, you know, they that in the long nun, that this hold wouldn't affect the level suppont. a Was going onto thene any discussion about Zelensky's considenation of CNN to make the announcement? Do you know whethen the of that? A I don't necall that coming up in that a That didn't come up in that meeting? Senatons wene aware A I don't necalI. a So in the next panagraph, meeting. Ambassadon Taylon you said, did 201 tell me on Septemben 8th, quote, "Now they'ne insisting Zelensky commit to the investigation in an intenview with CNNr" end quote. Who's the "they'ne" that was insisting that Zelensky do that? A I think the people he was talking to about that issue wene the Thnee Amigos. I don't know if he was nefenning to one in panticulan, what engagement he had whene he drew that -- fnom which he dnew that conclusion, but that's the communicating a domain of people who he was with about those issues. And you said that you were sunpnised the nequinement was so specific and concnete. A Yeah. a Can you explain why you wene sunprised by that? A At this stage, when this issue was discussed, I pensonally was necommending that we -- the Uknainians -- I were stnuggling with what to do with thein incneasing assumption that they do something was needed to in the investigations. In those convensations, we essentially say to them, you know, Why don't you say something like we'ne going to appoint a new pnosecuton genenal, and he'11 investigate any cnedible allegations, and have any new infonmation please shane nule of were law. We would find a way with us and we to get them to give if will foIlow you the assunances they willing to move fonwand with anything within the scope of the nule of law and express And so, I openness to doing that. mean, my assumption is, again, in nonmal govennment channels, you have mechanisms to shane evidence between the governments 202 things. So I'm not expert on howthat wonks, but MLAT pnocesses and things like that. and whatnot, and so night, So nonmal channels, and they would So that that one can follow and they're open follow that evidence to was my advice. And so up on these that to new evidence whereven when I it heand or whatnot, would lead. this, the advice -- I nealized nowhene nean meeting -- hitting the mank on what, at that point, the Ukrainians undenstood was requined of them. a And what the Uknainians undenstood was nequired of them is that I was giving was nowhere nean that Pnesident Zelensky was going to have to go onto CNN and announce the specific investigations that President wanted Giuliani ? A That Pnesident Zelensky pensonally was going to announce on CNN the specific investigations. and specific, more Tnump and Rudy and A11 those things are veny concrete that level of concreteness and specificity was fan detailed than I was awane we wene involved with. testified eanlien that that -- the Uknainians believed they had to do that in onder to get the fneeze on a And I believe you the secunity assistance lifted and to get the White A Yes. a A Both Yes. A And then House meeting? of those things? laten on, you go on to say that, even after the security assistance, or the hold was lifted, we wene stilI concerned that Pnesident Zelensky may have committed to give the intenview at 203 the YES in that statement, is that you and Confenence. The "we" Ambassadon Taylon? A Yes. a Okay. Anyone else that you had that concenn with? A Yes. So those of us in the Embassy who were awane of this set of issues and wene focused on it collectively developed that concenn that thene may have been a Uknainian have contributed that we wene, them doing a to the Iifting like We to do that that may wene not yet confident possibility of that -- of that intenview. the hold So you thought We wene wonnied thene was some evidence a of the ho1d. you know, out of the woods on the Uknainians had committed A commitment to may have been having Zelensky go on that because the CNN? was possible and, as I've testified, to that effect. WeII, and then some of the evidence you neceived a lifted text is that you -- it looks message A Yes. a -- fnom a colleague at the U.S. Embassy to the EU. Is that night ? A So this gets a litt1e bit confusing. My deputy, received MR. SWALWELL: Can you MR. GOLDMAN: He MR. though. HOLMES: spelI that? spelled it . I eanlien. can spelI it better this time, 204 I believe it was a phone call fnom a colleague at USEU, and she text -- I texted a summany of that phone call to So she received, me BY MR. NOBLE: a And duning that phone caI1, it was nelayed to I that, what you said hene, Sondland said the Zelensky intenview was supposed to be today, which would have been 16th the 13th of Septemben on Monday, the of September? A a Correct. And was on hold they plan to announce that a centain investigation that will pnogress. A YeS. a So did that set off alanm bells for you? A It validated oun concenn that we wenen't out of the woods yet on the possibility of an intenview. a And did you have an understanding of what that centain investigation that had been on hold would pnogness, what that A been My assumption is it was the same investigation that talking about fon months, the a So Bunisma and Biden that same day that you neceived the text the phone caII, you and Is that right? Ambassador Taylon met 0n the last meant? investigation. message nelaying with Pnesident Zelensky. panagnaph thene? A I believe so. Yes, yes. a Met in his pnivate office, A Yes, that is connect. we've and you took notes? 205 a A Did you tunn those notes oven Yes, except on the way out. to the State Department? that I wasn't taking notes when we nan into Yenmak Yeah. a Okay. But the notes of the Zelensky meeting you tunned oven? A Yes. This was not a topic of conversation at that meeting. a You didn't bning up the investigations with Zelensky? A No. Yeah. The meeting opened with Ambassadon Taylon shaning with them, although they alneady knew that the hold was a A it's lifted. Okay. And then we said, Great, now you get the secunity assistance, impontant we move on. And then we moved on to the othen topics on oun agenda. a Okay. But then on the way out you guys nan into Mn. Yenmak? A Connect. a Ambassadon Taylon again stnessed the impontance of staying out of U.S. politics, and said he hoped no intenviewwas then Mn. Yermak neacted by shnugging it in planned. And nesignation, and he did not to indicate they had no choice. Can you just explain a littIe bit that intenaction with answen, and you say was Mn. Yenmak, the shnugging, and why you intenpneted that as nesignation? I can put it into wonds aside fnom demonstnating what it }ooked 1ike. But we wene coming out of the meeting. Yermak was going into the Pnesident's pnivate office. We stopped and talked to him. And, look, a lot had happened in the last day or two, the lifting of the hold and then we had this YES Confenence A That may be the best 206 up. Thene's a 1ot going on. a big deal. So a lot was going on. coming A meeting with the Pnesident is And, so, we came out and Ambassadon Taylon said something to the effect of, Andney, I still hope you'ne intenview. You've got to stay out of help you. shnugged Pnetty pointed. not thinking about doing this Amenican politics. It will not And Yenmak Inonvenbal response] you know, kind of with resig - - I took him to be saying, what choice do we have? Again, I wouldn't dnaw too much fnom that, except that we wene also heaning these othen data points that would suggest that just because the hold was lifted didn't mean necessanily they -- they hadn't committed to doing the intenview. And can I just add, the 12th to the 14th the YES Conference with Faneed Zakania in Kyiv happening. I mean, it just seemed too wenen't coincidental not to be a senious concenn. to laten in that in Septemben, on page 9, you nefenenced not having seen a neadout of the Septemben 25th meeting a Jumping between Pnesident Trump and Pnesident Zelensky at the U.N. General Assembly. Did you write that because that's abnonmal, on why did you stil1 haven't seen a neadout? A It is abnonmal fon me -- fon us to neceive no significant neadout. Sometimes we'lI just get a line on two. That's nane. Usually we'lL get something mone fonmal if not a full neadout, but to neceive nothing is unusual. And I also mention it because that same day, the luly 25th note that you 207 tnanscnipt was neleased. And I wonnied at the time and I told Iike, Iet's assume nememben 25th. September And And I completed in the luly 25th tnanscnipt fact that it 25th. I just don't have neven myself, that for I I'm not sune -- people would focus on the meeting on the wene to staff, today. Let's not thene was a sepanate meeting that things that my expnessed concenn may have been a happened on I'm not sune totally diffenent know. my knowledge, me, my undenstanding received a neadout that of what happened on the 25th. And by "what happened, " you mean what happened when President a Trump met Pnesident Zelensky at the U.N. Genenal Assembly? A Yes. a I mean, obviously, you saw thene's the public vension of what happened, which is -- you know, was televised live. But thene was a private meeting either befone on aften. Is that youn undenstanding? A It's my undenstanding, Yes. a Okay. And you don't know what happened in the pnivate meeting? A I don't know. I don't know. can I clarify? can I clarify the last point? It's neadout of the pnivate thing Thene was came was on camena, and Iongen than I anticipated it would. I thene, but I I don't know if able to a out, but the watens wene so muddy. this public pontion that was possible it went on fan had a general sense what happened waiting fon anothen neadout fon the pnivate pontion. the pnivate pontion happened on not. complete the stony of I just was neven what tnanspined on Septemben 25th. 208 Did you even discuss what happened with any Uknainian a officials ? A What happened in what? a At that meeting between Tnump and Zelensky at UNGA? A No, not to my recollection. a Were you sunpnised on concenned to leann that Pnesident Trump stitl had not committed to an 0va1 Office meeting fon Pnesident Zelensky at that time? A By that time -- this is elected - - I think was we assumed now months that was aften Pnesident Zelensky the best we'ne going to get. a The UNGA meeting? A Yes. They had a meeting. And the neason I is because fan eanlien in this pnocess when say it that way the letten was sent offening the meeting but without a date specified, on May 2?th, the inaugunal delegation discussed people -- maybe it when to was Kunt have a Volken meeting. And I believe one of the -- necommended that they don't look -- the Genenal Assembly as the oppontunity to have the meeting, because it could get watened down by to UNGA as the oppontunity to have other bilats between the Pnesident and othen wonld leadens. And so, ideally, it would be the 0va1 Office meeting, which is a diffenent kind of thing. So much eanlier, we wene suggesting thene was something than a meeting at UNGA. By the time and the UNGA meeting took place, better -- aften going thnough all this I think we concluded that for at that stage, that was pnobably the best we could get. 209 a But still today, a meeting between Pnesident Zelensky Pnesident Tnump and in the OvaI Office would send a stnong message of support to Uknaine, despite what's happened, and a stnong message to Russia that the U.S. is still supponting Uknaine. Wouldn't you agree? A If it was a good meeting. If the message out of the meeting was full suppont fon Uknaine, then yes, it would be extnemely impontant. a WelI, and eanlier Mn. Zeldin asked you some questions about whethen you thought the investigation that the committees conducting was hanmful to U.S.-Uknainian nelations, but that 2 days aften the Septemben 9th, it committees launched was on Septemben 11th lifted the hold on the secunity ane isn't it the investigation true on that Pnesident Tnump finally assistance and, anguably, lifting the hold on the secunity assistance benefited the nelationship between the U. S. and Uknaine. tllouldn't you say that ? A a That is tnue. And wouldn't you agnee that investigating this innegulan channel of diplomacy that was pushing the Pnesident's political agenda like Rudy Giuliani and othens, including the Thnee Amigos, shedding light on that and nevealing this back channel that thnough people was occunning and putting pnessure on the Uknainian Govennment is beneficial to U.S.-Uknaine nelations? A I'm just not pnepaned to say whethen the Uknainian people have come to a conclusion about, on balance, what to them. I just don't a this pnocess means know. Fain enough. A couple of othen just quick questions, things 2L0 I noted in youn statement. You said Pnesident Ponoshenko actualLy put suppont right for Ambassadon Yovanovitch, I believe, out a statement of on Manch 22nd. Is that ? A Yes. a Okay. So the Pnesident of Ukraine put out a statement in support of the U.S. Ambassadon, but the State Depantment would not put out a statement of suppont for the U.S. Ambassadon aften all these numors stanted coming out? A That's my undenstanding, yes. a And you also said that in youn statement Uknainians, on public polIing, did not believe the lies that based Lutsenko was pedaling. A Yeah. a Was there public polling on this in Uknaine? A Yeah. Thene was a ZIK TV poII. I believe it was on Manch 25th. And I'm estimating hene, but it was asked, who do you believe, Lutsenko on Yovanovitch? And my recollection is that 88 pencent believed Yovanovitch, and something like something like 5 pencent believed Lutsenko, with the balance unsune. a And just final questions, the napper that I to ask. Who was Ambassadon Sondland and Pnesident Tnump wene talking luly 26 call? A I undenstand that to because have about duning the be A$AP Rocky a And Ambassadon Sondland A -- with a dollan sign. -- 2L1. a -- furthen told the Pnesident that have neleased him on youn wondr te11 the Kandashians you " Sweden, end quote, but tnied." quote, that, quote, "shouLd "you can Do you undenstand why he was saying tnied? So what's that about? A I didn't follow this issue closely. It's my undenstanding you can tell the Kandashians you that a numben of U.S. celebrities were advocating fon the govennment to help him in his legat issues in Sweden. But I didn't fo11ow this closeIy. a Is that an outlandish nequest? You don't have to answen that. A Thank you. MR. NOBLE: Okay. That's MR. CASTOR: End of the lightning nound? MR. NOBLE: Sonny. MR. SWALWELL: Mn. Holmes, thank you fon coming in. MR. JORDAN: Hang on one second. MR. SWALWELL: MN. ]ONdAN. Is the descniption Thnee Amigos, is that a widely used tenm anound the Embassy in Kyiv? MR. HOLMES: I've heand it used a lot by them and by -- by those thnee individuals as well as by people in the Embassy, yes. MR. I0RDAN: So people in the Embassy use that tenm? MR. IORDAN: MR. HOLMES: was meant by that they I think people in the Embassy would undenstand what that term, and people who intenacted with wene comfontable them and knew with the use of that tenm might use that 2t2 tenm. MR. JORDAN: the tenm on is it a negative connotation with the MR. HOLMES: I appnoach to some brought who ane them. And we it a positive connotation lust to be clean, is - anound folks in the Embassy? think it was -- it's indicative of the fnesh of these issues that people like Gondon Sondland - he's kind of a theatnical guy, and so he like bnanded thought, oh, that's kind of intenesting. it's not negative? No. It's not negative, no. MR. IORDAN: So MR. HOLMES: MR. IORDAN: Okay. MR. H0LMES : It is intenesting. that, descnibing but it ' s intenesting. Yeah. you know, doing Okay. MR. IORDAN: meeting You don themselves And what 't often in that hean diplomats, way on something, did Senaton Munphy say in the ? In which meeting, MR. HOLMES: MR. IORDAN: The meeting you had sin? with Senator lohnson and Senaton Munphy. You nelate Senaton Johnson, some of the things he stated in the meeting. What MR. HOLMES: did Munphy say? Yeah. So he was part of that general conversation that, you know, whateven happened on the cunnent secunity assistance hold that in the long nun, that about bipantisan suppont and hoped hopefully that suppont would make sune that thene was adequate support fon the Uknainians. That was kind of the tone of the convensation. He was pant of that convensation. 2t3 MR. IORDAN: Did he bning up any people, any names, anything specific you can nememben about Senaton Munphy's I necall at the time that -- I mean, I do have my notes. I can nefen back to them. I don't necall any othen details. MR. HOLMES: I necall that the pness confenence he gave immediately aften the meeting was very close to what he said in the meeting. mean by individual people. I don't MR. JORDAN: Did he nefenence I don't know what you necall- anything like that. the Thnee Amigos? Did he refenence any people, any Uknainian officials? sin. I don't necall any specific but it's possible that -- yeah. MR. HOLMES: I'm sonny, neferences, MR. JORDAN: Thank you, Mn. Holmes. MR. HOLMES: SuNC. MR. SWALWELL: Okay, we'ne going to adjourn. Mn. Holmes, thank you fon accommodating fon flying fnom Uknaine here. this request. And thank you to Thank you counsel. So we'11 adjounn. [Whereupon, at 9:4L p.n., the deposition was concluded.]