t

UNCLASS I EIED

1

2
3

4
5

6
7

PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE,

8

joint with

9

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM

the

10

and the

11

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS,

L2

U.S.

13

WASHTNGToN, D.C.

HOUSE

OF REPRESENTATIVES,

74
15
16

t7

DEPOSITION

OF:

PHILIP

REEKER

18
1.9

20
2L
22
23

Satunday, October 26,
Washington, D.C.

24
25

UNCLASS

] FIED

2@19

 UNCLASS I

L

2

2

FlED

in the above matten was held in
Capitol Visiton Centen, commencing at 11:03 a.m.
The deposition

Room HVC-304,

3

Pnesent: Repnesentatives Schiff, Swalwel1, Heck, and Wenstnup.

4

AIso Pnesent: Repnesentatives Enge1, Connolly, Maloney, Lynch,

5

Raskin, Malinowski, Meadows, and Penny.

5

UNCLASS

I FIED

 3

UNCLASS]FIED

1

2

Appeanances:

3

4
5

Fon

the PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE:

Fon

the

6
7

8
9

10
11

t2
13

t4
15
16
77
18
19

20

2t
22
23

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM:

24
25

UNCLASS

I FIED

  

UNCLASSIFIED

UNCLASSIFIED

5

UNCLASSIFTED

1
2

Fon

the

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS:

3

4
5

6
7
8

Fon PHILIP

9

MARGARET

REEKER:

E.

DAUM, PARTNER

10

SQUIRE PATTON BOGGS LLP

11

2550 t4 STREET,

t2

WASHTNGToN, DC 2@037

NW

UNCLASS

I EIED

 UNCLASS

6

IFIED

THE CHAIRMAN: Good monning, Ambassadon Reeken, and welcome

1

to

2

the House Penmanent Select Committee on Intelligence which, along with

3

the Foneign Affains and Ovensight Committees, is conducting this

4

investigation as pant of the

5

of Repnesentatives. Today's deposition is being conducted as part of

6

the

7
8
9

official

impeachment

inquiry of the

House

impeachment inquiny.

In light of attempts by the State Department and the
administnation to direct you not to coopenate with the inquiny, the
committee had no choice but to compel youn appeanance today. We thank

for

complying with a duly authonized congnessional subpoena as

10

you

11

othen fonmen and curnent

L2

have done.
Ambassadon Reeken

13

Affains

officials fnom acnoss the Fedenal Govennment
is the Acting Assistant

and has held

Secnetany

of

Eunopean

this position since eanlien this

yean.

t4

and Eunasian

15

Ambassadon Reeken

16

with distinction in vanious positions thnough his long caneen in public

77

senvice.

joined the Fonelgn Service in 1992 and has senved

Ambassadon Reeken, we ane

18

for

gnateful youn being hene and we thank

youn senvice. We look forwand

to

youn testimony today,

19

you

20

including youn knowledge of and involvement in key policy discussions,

21

meetings, and decisions on Uknaine that nelate dinectly to aneas under

22

investigation by the committees. This includes developments nelated

23

24
25

to the necall of Ambassadon Yovanovitch, the Pnesident's Ju1y 25th,
2OL9, call with Uknainian Pnesident Ze1ensky, as well as the
documentary recond that has come to light about effonts befone and aften
UNCLASS

I EIED

 7

UNCLASSIF]ED

1

the calI to get the Uknainians to

2

into two aneas Pnesident

3

and Bunisma and

4

intenfenence

announces

publicly investigations

Tnump asked Zelensky

to

punsue,

the conspinacy theony about Uknaine's

Bidens

purponted

in the 2016 U.S. elections.

We'11 also have questions about the Depantment's nesponse

5

to the

inquiry, including the committee's subpoena, which the
continues to defy, despite the fact that we know it has

6

impeachment

7

Depantment

8

alneady collected significant documentany evidence

9

heant

10

the

of oun inquiny.
Finally, to restate

what

I

that goes to the

and othens have emphasized

wilf not tolerate

in

othen

any nepnisal, thneat of

tt

intenviews, Congness

L2

repnisal,

13

testifying

t4

It is distunbing that the State Depantment, in coordination with the

15

White House, has sought

16

coopenating with the inquiny and with Congness and have tnied

L7

what people can say.

18

This

on attempt

to netaliate against

any government

befone Congness, including you on any

to pnohibit

official

fon

of your colleagues.

Depantment employees fnom

is unacceptable. Thankfully,

consummate

to limit

public senvants,

22

like you, have demonstnated nemankable counage in coming forward to
testify and tell the tnuth.
Befone I tunn to committee counsel to begin the intenview, I
invite the ranking memben, in his absence, a minority member of the

23

Foneign

19

20
2L

Affains on Ovensight Committee, to

make any opening nemanks.

you, Chairman Schiff.

24

MR. MEADOWS: Thank

25

Ambassadon Reeken, thank you
UNCLASS

fon being
I EIED

hene.

 UNCLASS

Centainly as we look to today's heaninB, it is

1
2

Mn. Chainman,

3

connect

?

It is of the chanacten I

descnibed

in

my opening

statement.
MR. MEADOWS: A11

6
7

my undenstanding,

that this is, I guess, a joint deposition. Is that

THE CHAIRMAN:

4
5

8

I FIED

night.

And so as a

joint deposition,

one of

the concerns I have, as you know, you and I had a veny respectful

11.

it nelates to the nu1es, and access to the deposition
transcnipts is a key component. It is my undenstanding that you and
youn staff have access to the deposition tnanscnipts cunnently. And
unden the nules, maybe I will quote it hene, unden panagraph 9 in the

t2

nules it says, the chain and the nanking minonity

13

pnovided with a copy

74

time.

8
9
10

convensation as

memben

shall

of the tnanscnipts of the deposition at the

be
same

so, Mn. Chainman --

15

And

16

THE CHAIRMAN: Sorny.

t7

MR. MEADOWS:

18

So, Mn. Chainman,

That's all night.

in light of the nules, I think it's critically

if we're going to have fain

19

impontant that

20

the nules, that those deposition tnanscnipts be pnovided to the

2L

minonity at the

22

And

same

to date, it

time.
has been veny

23

scenanio, and impossible

24

those tnanscnipts.

25

And so

I

would

and equal access and fol1ow

laborious, I think, in a best

in a wonse case scenario, to

case

have access to

just bring to the chainman's attention the nules,
UNCLASS

I FIED

 9

UNCLASS] FIED

1

and, respectfully, and

I

that nespectfully, let's look and see

mean

4

it nelates to the deposition.
I just find it very difficult to have sat in over 60 houns of
tnanscnibed intenviews and then have it be veny difficult fon me to

5

go back and compane notes on refresh my memory when

6

in the depositions.

2
3

7

8
9
10

if

we can have an accommodation as

I'm not saying wide access to those outside of the

of junisdiction, but centainly the thnee committees of
junisdiction. And under the guidelines that you set fonth in youn
opening statement,

I think that would be appnopriate.

L2
13

My undenstanding

memben,

L5

electnonic fonm. AlI

15

transcnipts

t7

copy out
We

in

unden

the nules the chainman and nanking

to the tnanscnipt in

of the thnee committees

have access to

but they ane not allowed to take the

hand

of the spaces.

don't pnint

that the minonity

20

newspapen

The

Membens

hand copy,

19

2L

is that

so myself and Mn. Nunes, have access

t4

18

thnee

committees

I nespectfully yield back.
THE CHAIRMAN: I think the gentleman.

11

I've actually been

numenous copies because

was allowed

to pnint

was

the veny

finst transcnipt

then leaked to a consenvative

in veny shont onden.
point of doing the depositions in closed session

--

and

entitled to

22

you know, thene ane aLmost 50 Republican

23

panticipate -- is

so

24

of othens.

tnanscripts ane neleased, as the transcnipt of

25

Mn. Vo1ken's testimony was,

When

Membens

that witnesses ane not influenced

it

as

by the testimony

obviously undenmines the integrity of

UNCLASS

I EIED

 L

the investigation and we're tnying to prevent that.
MR. MEADOWS: And undenmining

2

3

10

FlED

UNCLASS I

the integnity of the investigation

is centainly not what I'm suggesting.
And so

4

with that, this is eithen a joint deposition on it's not.

8

full well that this nule was
actually not put in place fon this type of heaning as much as it was
what I call the Issa nu1e. You wene very familian with that during
the Benghazi hearings. It was put in place under a Republican

9

majonity, pnimanily

5

6
7

10

clean.

The House nules ane veny

desire of

of the classified natune of those and the

because

Congnessman

You know

Issa to be pant of that.

I'm not asking fon a pninted copy. I've not seen a pninted

11

tnanscnipt.

I am asking is, is that we'ne allowed with

L2

of

13

oun

74

witnesses. I think that would centainly

any

But what

copy

staff to go in and neview those depositions
be

as we pnepane fon

funther

in keeping with the rules.

17

I think it is in spinit with the nules.
My understanding is night now is that we can set up a time and
have youn staff come in and supenvise that. That's not laid out in

18

the nules, MF. Chainman.

15

16

19

And again,

I think

10. I'm just

20

paragnaph

2L

an accommodation. And

22

we can have

23
24
25

when we

look at

this, it's

saying nespectfully,

panagraph 9,

Iet's find a way to make

I'm not asking you to nule night now. Centainly

a funthen discussion off-Iine.

THE CHAIRMAN: And

let's

have

that funthen discussion off-line

so we don't have to use up the witness' time.
MR. MEADOWS:

I'11 yield

back.

UNCLASS I

FIED

 UNCLASS

t

if

THE CHAIRMAN: We'11 see

11

IFIED

we can neach an accommodation.

2

Again, I'm happy to ententain any accommodation that doesn't

3

us

4

was made available.

to the
And

5

the

7

SCIF

of counse

the other

both committed

is

happened

with the finst tnanscnipt that

with people willy-nit1y ignoning

we have a pnoblem

why

into the

day.

MR. MEADOWS:

8

10

nisk of what

House nules as we saw when some of youn colleagues came

6

9

same

expose

to

Certainly the chainman and this nanking memben are

keeping the

nules.

And so

I

guess

in that spirit

I'm making the nespectful appeal.

11

THE CHAIRIVIAN:

I thaNk yOu.

L2

I will

it

13

MR. GOLDMAN: Thank

L4

This is a deposition of Ambassadon Philip Reeken conducted by the

now

tunn

oven

to Mn. Goldman to begin the deposition.

you, Mn.

Chainman.

Intelligence punsuant to the

15

House Penmanent Select Committee on

16

impeachment inquiny announced by the Speaken

17

24th.
As you know, Ambassadon Reeken,

18

to the

memonial events

19

schedule due

20

dean colleague, Repnesentative

2t

youn

22

deposition on a

23

24
25

of the

House on Septemben

the committees had to adjust

the past two days in

honon

of

oun
oun

Elijah Cummings. And we appneciate

flexibility in accommodating oun schedule in orden to conduct this
weekend.

Ambassadon Reeken,

if

you can now please state youn

fuII

it fon the recond.
AMBASSADOR REEKER: My name is Philip Thomas Reeken,

spel1 youn

last

name

UNCLASS

1

FIED

name and

 UNCLASS

1

1

72

FIED

R-e-e-k-e-n.

if

just

3

to pul1 the micnophone in a
way that makes you comfontable that you just speak and it goes into

4

the micnophone.

5

AMBASSADOR

5

MR. GOLDMAN: Along

2

7
8

9

MR. GOLDMAN: And

you

want

Thank you.
REEKER: GOt

it.

with othen pnoceedings in funtherance of the

is pant of a joint investigation Ied
by the Intelligence Committee in coondination with the Committee on
Foneign Affains and Oversight and Reform. In the room today ane
inquiny to date, this deposition

minority staff fnom all thnee committees, and this

10

majonity

staff

11

will

staff-led deposition.

12

duning thein altotted time as has been the case

13

since the inception of

be a

15

fon the

16

in

HPSCI

majonity

Let me do

some

Mitche1l.

19

Committee.

20

fon the majority.

22
23

24

of course,

in

may ask

questions

eveny deposition

this investigation.

staff.

And

I'm the dinecton of investigations

I

want

to thank you again fon

coming

today.

18

2L

Members,

My name is Daniel Goldman.

L4

t7

and

And

He

themselves

is the senion investigative counsel fon the Intelligence

Mn.

I'11

bnief intnoductions. To my night Nicholas

Mitchell

now

let

my

and

I will

be conducting most

of the intenview

countenpants fnom the minonity

staff

intnoduce

?

MR. CASTOR: Steve Caston

with the Republican staff of the

Ovensight Committee.

25

UNCLASS

I FIED

 13

UNCLASS

I FIED

1

2
3

I
MR. GOLDMAN:

4

This deposition

5

unclassified level.

6

HPSCI secure spaces and

7

secunity cLeanances.

8

secunity cleanance as well.

Howeven,

be conducted entinely

the deposition

is

at the

being conducted in

in the presence of staff with appnopniate

We

also undenstand that youn attonney has her

It is the committee's

9

will

expectation that neithen questions asked

11

of you non answens pnovided by you will nequine discussion of any
infonmation that is cunnently on at any point could be pnopenly

L2

classified

13

states that, quote, "In no case shall infonmation be classified,

L4

continue to be maintained as classified, or

15

unquote, fon the punpose

10

unden Executive 0nden

13526.

You

are neminded that

E0 13526

fail to be declassified,

"

L7

of concealing any violations of law on
preventing embannassment of any penson on entity.
If any of oun questions can only be answened with classified

18

infonmation, please infonm us of that befone you answer the question

19

and we can adjust accordingly.

20

Today's deposition

16

of the sensitive

27

because

22

and matenials

23

deposition
Unden

24
25

staff

that

will

will

is not being taken in executive
and

confidential natune of

be discussed, access

be limited

some

to the three committees in

can discuss the substance
UNCLASS

of the topics

to the tnanscnipt of the

the House deposition nules, no Memben of

memben

session, but

attendance.

Congness non any

of the testimony that you provide

I EIED

 UNCLASS

will

t

today.

2

tnanscnipt of today's deposition?

3

You and youn attonney

Befone we begin,

14

IF]ED

have an oppontunity

to

neview the

I'd like to go oven some gnound nules.

We

will

4

be following the House negulations fon depositions, which we have

5

pneviously pnovided to youn counsel. The deposition

6

follow.

7

minonity

8

altennate back and fonth between majonity and minority in 45-minute

9

nounds

10
L1

will

pnoceed as

will be given t houn to ask questions, then the
will be given t houn to ask questions. Thereaften, we will
The majonity

is complete. We will take peniodic breaks,
but if you need a bneak at any time, please just 1et us know.
until

Unden

questioning

the

House

deposition nuIes, counsel fon other pensons or

t2

govennment agencies may

not attend. You ane penmitted to have an

13

attonney pnesent duning

this deposition. And I

t4

bnought

15
16
17

18
19

see

that you have

a pensonal attonney.

At this time,

if

counsel could please state hen appeanance fon

the record?
MS. DAUM: Marganet Daum, Squine Patton Boggs,

fon

Ambassadon

Reeker.
MR. GOLDMAN: Thene

is

a stenognapher

taking

down evenything

that

23

is said hene today in onden to make a written necond of the deposition.
Fon that necond to be c1ean, please wait until each question is
completed befone you begin your answen and we will tny to wait until
you finish your nesponse befone asking you the next question. The

24

stenognapher cannot necord nonvenbal answens, such as shaking youn

25

head, so

20
27
22

it is impontant that you answer each question with an audible
UNCLASS

1

FIED

 15

UNCLASSI FIED

1

venbal answer.

2

We

ask

to questions based on youn

you give complete neplies

that

If

is

unclean on you ane uncentain in

3

best necollection.

4

your nesponse, please

5

a question on cannot rememben, simply say so.
You may

6

that is

8

question

9

pnivilege, staff

necognized by

-

let

us know. And

nefuse

to

may

the committee.
answen on

If

you refuse on object

to

a

object to a question on the basis of

the chairman on an objection.

fnom

11

objection, you ane requined to

13

do not know the answen to

eithen pnoceed with the deposition on seek a nuling

10

L2

if

only nefuse to answer a question to pneserve a privilege

7

-

a question

If the chair ovenruLes any such

answen

the question.

Finally, you ane neminded that it is unlawful to delibenately
pnovide false infonmation to Membens of Congness on staff. It is

15

truthfully, but that
you give fuII and complete answens to all questions asked of you.

16

Omissions may also be considened as

t4

77
18

impenative that you not only answen oun questions

As

Do

you swean

that

unden oath, Ambassadon Reeken, would you

to

youn testimony here today

be swonn?

will

be

the whole tnuth

and nothing but the tnuth?
REEKER:

2L

AMBASSADOR

22

MR. GOLDMAN:

23

statements.

please now stand and naise youn night hand

19

20

this deposition is

false

I

dO.

Let the recond neflect that the witness has

been

sworn.

24

And you may be seated?

25

Ambassador Reeker,

if

you have an opening statement or youn
UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS

1

2
3

4

attonney has any mattens to discuss befone we pnoceed, now is the time.

I have no opening
MR. GOLDMAN: AIl right. Then I will
AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

statement.
necognize myself

BY MR. GOLDMAN:

a

Ambassadon Reeken, befone we

get into the substance of

8

today's deposition, we would like to just bniefly go thnough

9

backgnound.

As we understand, you joined

can you descnibe fon us, genenally speaking, some

L2

and youn mone necent positions?

A Sure. I joined tn

L992

youn

the Foneign Service in 1992.

11

13

6Q

EXAMINATION

6

10

for

minutes.

5

7

15

I FIED

And

of youn foneign posts

after finishing

gnaduate school.

74

Actually went thnough the Foneign Senvice pnocess and joined with the

15

United States Infonmation Agency, which

L7

at that time was sepanate.
My first assignment was to Budapest, Hungany, whene I was the
assistant information officen on pness attache. I moved on then to

18

be the public

19

now Nonth Macedonia.

15

20

affains officer at the U.S. Embassy in Skopje, what is

thene, I went back to hlashington to

Fnom

become

the dinecton of

27

the pness office, the Office of Pness Relations at the

22

State, and subsequently

23

Secnetary

24

yeans unden Secnetany

25

became

of State Albnight

From

Depantment

the deputy spokesman, finst

and then thnough the

of

under

tnansition fon 3 mone

of State Powell.

thene, I went back ovenseas, netunning to Budapest as the
UNCLASS I

FIED

 t7

UNCLASS] FIED

1

Deputy Chief

of Mission fnom 2@04to 2007.

Fron2O@7

to

I senved,

2@O8,

in

2

Baghdad at

3

the U.S. Embassy thene, as the Counselon fon Public Affains to

4

Ambassadon Ryan Cnocken, wonking veny

5

and Genenal David Petnaeus on

6

Inaq.

closely with

Ambassadon Cnocken

the so-called sunge in that peniod in

I was then nominated to be the United States Ambassadon to again

7

is now called Nonth Macedonia,

8

what

9

at post in

September

confinmed by the Senate, and anrived

2@@8.

Aften a nonmal 3-yean toun as Ambassadon, in 2OtL

10

was asked

the Deputy Assistant Secnetany in the

11

come back and become

L2

Eunopean and Eunasian

13

Eunope, as

t4

and

it's

I

Buneau

to

of

Affains covening the Balkans, South Centnal

known, and then

laten

expanded

to include Centnal

Eunope

the office of Holocaust Initiatives.
And then

15

aften that assignment

I

followed

I,

who had been

to ItaIy, to become counsel genenal in MiIan. I

senved thene

16

assigned

L7

fron

18

the civilian deputy

19

the U.S. militany forces in Europe, senving as deputy to General Cuntis

20

Scappanotti, who was at that time the

2L

Command, based

2@74

to

2@17

, at which time I
commander

moved.

I

had been asked

to

of the United States Eunopean
commanden

become

Command,

of U.S. Eunopean

22

in Stuttgant, and was serving in that capacity as his
civilian deputy and foreign policy advison until in late Januany I was

23

appnoached on

24

the Assistant Secnetany for

25

Secretany Pompeo asked me to come back

called by the

Depantment upon
Eunopean

UNCLASS

the sudden resignation of

Affains,

to

I F]ED

Wess

Mitchell.

Washington

to take

oven

 UNCLASS I

L

running the Buneau
So

2

of

European

I -- fonmally I

18

FIED

Affains aften

came back on

Wess had depanted.

the 18th of March to be able to

70th annivensany ministenial, and then

I

3

be hene fon the

4

semi-dual-hatted.

5

at the 26th of May, I believe, but I tnavel about 50 pencent of

6

time back and forth to oun vanious posts.
We

7

NATO

My

technical assignment at

have, as you know, 50 countnies

Eunopean Command ended

in the

Eunopean

Bureau. That includes 49 missions, including

8

Eunopean

9

Eunopean Union,

the

OSCE, and 28

was

--

the

unden the

NATO, the

consulates on constituent posts

as

10

well.

Back hene

11

Buneau

of

L2

secnetanies, a principal deputy who came on in August and then six

13

deputy assistant secretanies, and as

I said, about 300 staff

L4

ovenseas, the Buneau has about

personnel fon which I'm bnoadly

15

nesponsible.

16
77

in

Eunopean

Washington we have about 3OO employees unden the

Affairs. I

have seven deputy assistant

LLT5OO

mone

here.

for that backgnound. We ane going to focus
primanily on your time as Acting Assistant Secnetany tn 2OL9,

18

a

Thank you

A

And

I

if I

19

the necond,

20

Secnetary

2L

Secnetany since

am

may

clanify, I think it's at least

fonmally assigned as the Pnincipal Deputy Assistant

in the Buneau

22

a

23

Ane you

wonth noting fon

and

I'm not

in that capacity

senve as Acting Assistant

confinmed.

Understood.

-- prion to testifying hene today, did you have

-- yoU, younself, have any conversations with anyone at the State

24

any

25

Depantment about your testimony?
UNCLASS

I FIED

 19

UNCLASSIFIED

t
2
3

4
5
6
7

8
9
10
11
72

A The fact that I was doing it?
a Let's stant with the fact -- the fact that you wene asked
and whethen on not you should

A I let

testify.

my supenvison, my boss,

the

Unden Secnetary, David

HaIe, know, as well as the Office of the Legal Advison and my pnincipal

I think I sent an email the night that I neceived the
nequest to testify. One of my deputies had alneady testified, Geonge
Kent. And I centainly didn't keep it a secnet that I'd been asked
to -- nequested to give a deposition as the email stated. And
deputy know.

oniginally the nequest

a

was

fon

Wednesday.

Did anyone, othen than

discounage you fnom

in fonmal lettens to you, did

anyone

testifying?

13

A

No, sin.

74

a

Did you have any discussions with anyone else about the

15
16

t7
18
19

20
2L
22
23

24
25

substance

A
a

of

youn testimony?

No, sin.
Ane you aware

Depantment

fon

that the

documents nelated

committees have subpoenaed the

to this investigation?

A I do undenstand that fnom the pness reponting, y€s.
a 0n1y fnom the press neponting?
A Yeah, to the best -- wel1, I know we were -- when this began,
I was tnaveling in Italy on official tnavel. And I necall that thene
was -- we needed to at least neview files fon documents nelevant to
this, and I undenstood that my emails wene neviewed automatically.
a Wene you asked to collect any documents related to the
UNCLASS I

FIED

 20

UNCLASS1TIED

1

2
3

4
5
6

subject of

this investigation?

I was tnaveling,
my assistant went thnough files. And I neally didn't have anything
nelevant. Everything I had was in email.
a Okay. And I see you do have a binden of matenials hene today.
Can you just genenally descnibe what's in that binden?

A

There was a genenal

nequest.

And

so, since

10

A It's my emails.
a Youn emails.
A Not all of them obviously, because I get upwands of 3OO or
4AO a day. But it's emails that I thought may be nelevant to help me

7L

tnace and neca11.

7

8
9

13

a And just fon the necord, it's a 4-inch binden, it appeans
that it's quite full of penhaps a couple hundned pages of documents.

74

Is that

L2

accunate?

t6

A
a

77

MR. MEADOWS:

15

20

2t
22
23

24
25

that's

accunate.

And you ane awane

of --

3-inch binden.

BY MR. GOLDMAN:

18
19

Yes,

a

ane you

not, that the Depantment has not pnovided the

committees with any documents punsuant to the subpoena. Is

A
a

That is my undenstanding, Yes.
Have you had any convensations

Depantment about whether

A
A

that night?

the Department

No, sin.
pnoduce any documents?
UNCLASS

I E]ED

with anyone at the State
should

 2L

UNCLASS I

A No, sin.
a Okay. But you've neviewed the nelevant

t
2
3

F]ED

testifying here today?
A WelI, I've tried to

emails pnion to

6

I have a fainly
fulsome job. And so in between, in prepaning what was initially a shont
peniod and then with a couple of extra days, I did tny to go thnough

7

emails

8

of things that I believe you may be intenested in.

4
5

be able

to the best

to necall

and tnack

the genenal timeline

a Okay. And that neview, I assume, has helped you pnepare fon

9

10

just to tny to

neview

youn intenview today.

L7

A I think so, yes.
a Youn testimony today.
A I may be able to nefen to some of them.
a So just so you'ne awane, because we don't have those
documents and don't have any documents, we may be asking a lot of
questions just to get some of the basics and the foundation. So it
may seem basic, it may seem nedundant, but we ask youn indulgence as

18

we

LT

L2
13

t4
15
16

19

tny to detenmine the facts

hene.

In addition to emails, did you have any electnonic

20

communications, such as WhatsApp messages, nelated

2t

investigation

to the topic of the

?

24

A I do have some -- a few pages of WhatsApp, I guess you
could -- would that be call a tnanscnipt? -- WhatsApp things which I
convented to, as we'ne nequired to do, converted to anchives -- I'm

25

not veny technically inclined hene -- and sent to

22
23

UNCLASS

I FIED

my

email.

So

-- and

 UNCLASS

I
2

3

I think those I reviewed those.
a And genenally speaking, who wene those WhatsApp messages
with

?

A I think I

4

have foun people

Masha

6

being a tennible witness.

7

Taylon, Geonge Kent, and Kurt Volken.

a

8

10

with

Yovanovitch. Let me just check to

5

9

22

] EIED

A11

night.

whom

they ane nelevant.

be accunate

hene. Sonny, I'm

I apologize. Masha Yovanovitch, Bill

So you said

that in

Januany you wene asked by

Secnetary Pompeo to neturn to D.C. to take on this new
night

nole. Is that

?

13

A Specifically, I can't actually find in my calendan the
specific day, but I had been in Washington for a chief of mission
confenence. I was invited to join the European Buneau's chief of

74

mission confenence

11
L2

15

in my capacity as the civilian deputy at Eunopean
Command where the focus was on tnying to integnate defense and

16

diplomacy, oun State, DOD, EUCOM, EUR, the Eunopean Buneau wonk.

L7

I

was back
And

18
19

end

of

it

fon

that.

Retunned

was sevenal days

Januany, Wess

Mitchell

So

to Stuttgant.

laten. I think it

was close

had suddenly announced

to the very

his nesignation

22

I neceived a call fnom him saying: Sonny
I didn't tell you this befone. And then he suggested I was going to
get another phone call because a new idea had come up. And I received

23

that call

24

who

25

having me come back

20
2L

as

Assistant Secnetany.

fnom

talked to

And

the Counselon of the State Depantment, U1rich Bnechbuhl,
me

fon a

Iittle while and said they wene intenested in

to take oven fon Wess.
UNCLASS I

FIED

 23

UNCLASS

a

1

2

mouth

Could you

just

4

move youn micnophone

a little closen to youn

?

A I'm sorny.
a You can pull it

3

I F]ED

even closen

to you just

so

you're comfontable.

11

It's a lange noom.
A Lapel mikes on something. That's betten. Is that all
night ? Sonny.
So he suggested that I come back to Washington. In fact, I was
scheduled, I think, to come back fon something EUCOM nelated. And I
did netunn to D.C. then. I left -- I flew on the 6th of Febnuany and
on the 7th and 8th I had a vaniety of meetings, including with Wess

t2

MitchelI, with

13

Secnetany

L4

was

15

that.

5

6
7
8
9
10

16

Counselon Bnechbuhl, and

of State

Pompeo. They asked me if

thein desine, that
And so then

I

ultimately

I

would do

my new assignment would be

netunned

to Stuttgant

a shont meeting with

to

on the 9th

Secnetany had suggested

18

counse

19

Centnal Eunope that they took immediately aften.

still in his capacity

That

come back and do

of Febnuany.

that I join him, along with

t7

this.

The

Wess, who was of

as Assistant Secnetary, on the

tnip to

22

to Stuttgant, anniving on the L0th of Febnuany,
changed my suitcase and then went to Budapest to join the Secnetary's
panty on the 11th. We were in Budapest, Bnatislava, then Wansaw.

23

Stopped

24

IceIand, Reykjavik, IceIand, and I accompanied on that

20
21

25

So

I

went back

in Brussels laten that week.

And then

the Secnetany visited

tnip. And then
I went fnom there back to Munich actually on the -- I think it was the
UNCLASS

IFIED

 UNCLASS

of

7

15th

2

job as

3

4

Febnuary
EUCOM

a

24

] FIED

-- fon the Munich secunity

deputy

in

my

existing

commanden.

You mentioned a

Wansaw. What was

confenence

in

tnip,

pant

of that

Eunopean swing was

to

Wansaw? Do you necal1?

7L

A In Wansaw there was the Ministenial on the Future of the
Middle East and bilatenal meetings. I think we wene thene two nights
as I reca1l.
a Were you awane that Rudy Giuliani attended that confenence?
A I do necall heaning somebody mention that Rudy Giuliani was
in town. I do necall that. It had no panticulan significance to me
on to the confenence site. But I do recall that I neven saw him on

72

met him.

5

6
7

8
9
10

13

t4

a
neca11

How

did you hear that he was thene?

Who

told you, do you

?

L7

A I just rememben heaning it in the -- it's possible I may have
nead it in the pness, but I do necall heaning that.
a Do you know if he met with any employees of the State

18

Department

15
15

19

20

2t

?

A I do not know.
a When you wene asked to take the job, what did you know about
Uknaine

?

24

A WeII, I mean, I followed some developments in Ukraine. I
think I had visited thene twice in my life. The first time, in my very
finst assignment, I went to Kyiv, it must have been 1995, newly

25

independent countny fnom the Soviet Union

22
23

UNCLASS

] FIED

of

counse

aften the collapse

 25

UNCLASS

I think that was when the Pnesident at that time

L

of the Soviet Union.

2

made

3

just wonked on the pness suppont.

5

visit to independent

the finst
And then

4

] FIED

I

accompanied Secnetary

spokesman, deputy spokesman.

President. I

Uknaine by a U.S.

Albnight

I think I

in my capacity

must have been Acting

as

at that

7

point. 5o tnaveled with her.
I was, of counse, aware of the Russian -- the genenal cunnent

8

events

9

attempted annexation of Cnimea Ln 2@14, our effonts

6

in

the Russian, shall

Uknaine and then

we

say, invasion,

to

suppont Uknaine.

11

of the genenal policy. It wasn't panticulanly
nelevant to my wonking in Ita1y, although we often focused on the

L2

sanctions that the United States put in pIace, helping to explain those

13

and encounage

t4

sanctions in place against Russia because of thein invasion of Uknaine,

15

thein occupation of Crimea,

16

Donbas

10

I

was awane

the suppont,

because

and

the wan that they had stanted in the

in the eastenn pant of Uknaine.

And, you know, the extensive pnognams we've had, supponted and

t7

to help the Uknainians

18

funded by Congness,

19

nefonms and development.
And then

20

at EUCOM I

was

had a nole thene

Obviously

22

that

we wene

23

knew

the pnevious Ambassadon.

24

was

EUCOM

providing. I

oven time

in

tenms

of thein

familian with Uknaine genenally.

2t

25

the Eunopean Union also had put

knew

in tenms of

some

of the militany suppont

the Ambassadon,
And

that

Masha

was pant

of

Yovanovitch. I
my

job at

EUCOM,

to maintain a liaison thene.
a Did you have -- what was your nelationship with Ambassadon
UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS

1

26

I EIED

Yovanovitch like?

4

A I've know Masha fon, I think -- she's been in the Foneign
Senvice longen than I, but, you know, pnobably 20 yeans. We both have
senved in the bnoad -- bnoadly same negion. When I was nominated and

5

came

6

being confinmed fon Anmenia,

7

alneady been,

8

the

2

3

same

officen

my

confinmation heaning, we wene on the same pane1. She

to

be Ambassador

I believe, Ambassadon to Kyrgyzstan.

panel.

We knew each

was

to Anmenia. She had
And so we wene on

othen. We're fniends, colleagues.

And what was hen general neputation as

a

9
10

fon

a Foneign

Senvice

?

L2

A Outstanding. I mean, she's one of the Foneign Service gneat
leadens. Outstanding diplomat, veny pnecise, very -- veny

13

pnofessional, considered an excellent menton, you know, a good leaden.

T4

And

15

senved togethen

16

Secnetany fon

L7

of the DAS's.

18

time.

L9

and Acting

TL

20
27
22

this was, of counse, Uknaine was her thind ambassadonship.

in the Eunopean Buneau when f

She was anothen one

I think she had the Nondic and Baltic pontfolio at that
the Pnincipal Deputy Assistant

fon a peniod towand the end of

Had

was Deputy Assistant

the Balkans and in Centnal Eunope.

And then she became

a

trle had

you even heand any complaints

my

time in the

within the State

Secnetany
Buneau.

Depantment

that she was doing as Ambassadon of Uknaine?
A No, sin. And at European Command she had an excellent

about the job

23

neputation.

The commanden found hen extremely pnofessional and wonked

24

closely with

hen.

25

a

Soon

aften youn official stant date in this nole as the Acting
UNCLASS I

ElED

 27

UNCLASS

I FTED

1

Assistant Secnetany, I'ffi sune you'ne

2

there

awane thene became

a

lot of on

3

lot of publicity nelated to her and hen nole in Uknaine
towand the end of Manch. I assume -- you became awane of that as well

4

at the end of

5

A

h,as

a

Yes,

Manch, night?

sin. I annived late in the evening of the 17th of Manch

Stuttgant.

Went home

6

fnom

7

Eunopean Buneau on

8
9

to

my apantment and neported

to

wonk

in the

the L8th.

of the finst tasks that I had at hand, because my
nesponsibility largely in sort of shephending this buneau, the lange
One

I

described to you,

is

making sune

the pensonnel issues at the

10

buneau

11

top level ane handled and the

t2

3-yean toun and we needed

13

pnocess, the usual Foneign Senvice process, which had been conducted

L4

and

--

Masha was coming

to the end of

her

to find a new candidate, the chief of mission

identified a candidate fon

nominatlon.

That candidate had been redinected to a diffenent job and so thene

15

then an opening. And one of

my

first

tasks was to work within the

16

was

t7

Buneau and

18

submit

19

then to what's known as the Deputies Committee that then selects the

20

Depantment's candidate, which then goes on

2L

appnopniate

22
23

24
25

the buneaucnacy to tny to identify candidates to

-- you know, thene is a standand pnocess fon this -- to submit

vetting, et cetera,

So we were focused on

quickly to get

a

Wene

become

that.

a

to

become,

after the

nominee.

Thene wene two posts

that

needed

new candidates.

you awane

that

she had been asked

than her usual toun?
UNCLASS

I FIED

to stay a little

longen

 UNCLASS

A I

1

was awane

that that

28

I FIED

had been considened, because when the

2

candidate, the penson that was -- had been selected and was working

3

towands, you know, submitting the necessany papens fon nomination

4

nevectoned,

5

timing of confinmation

6

Secnetany Hale had appnoached hen about whether, you know, was she able

7

to

had had conversations

is

with

Masha about

always a challenge. And

--

you know,

I believe Unden

stay.
We

8
9

I

go thnough

Some have onwand

this a lot with a numben of oun ambassadors in posts.

assignments, some of them ane netining, some of them

10

have pensonal neasons. Othens, when thene's a gap because

11

know,

a slow confinmation

L2

carny

on.

13

covened by

74

confirmation of that.
So

15

16

I

We

pnocess we

have a numben

tny to see if

of,

you

we can have them

of posts night now, fon instance, that

ane

the deputies in the capacity as Charge d'Affaines pending

know

that she had been appnoached as to the possibility of

that centainly in the eanlien period.

a

L7
18

was

Was

thene anything unusual about the neassignment

of

the

othen candidate that you ane awane of?

A

19

Look,

let

me

just

be very candid,

I

was

20

I

2L

the annual chief of mission pnocess, as we call

22

in

had been appnoached by Assistant Secnetary

any

of the jobs that

that candidate.

So

Mitchell as he was doing

it,

and was

I intenested

were open on coming open.

24

I was ambivalent because I was extremely happy at
Eunopean Command. It was a 3-year assignment and I was just finishing

25

the finst yean of it.

23

To be honest,

UNCLASS

I FIED

 29

UNCLASS

I FIED

1

Worked

2
3

out neasonably

wel}.

The commute was

tolenable.
But Wess was quite eagen and so encounaged me to considen the

4

job.

ultimately

I

was

-- f

was

5

Uknaine

6

gotten as fan,

7

weekend,

8

with potential nomination, which means they

And

Decemben

the candidate and I

21st, I neca1l, just befone the

I got wond that the White House had appnoved

had

Chnistmas

moving fonwand

send you hundreds

of

pages

11

of documents to fill out.
And I did not do that oven Chnistmas and got thnough the holiday.
And then as I was doing -- stanting to wonk on those fonms, and in fact

L2

when Wess

9
10

13

Mitchell called me, I got a message, You know, Assistant
Secnetany Mitchell wants to call you. I said, oh, he's calling to say,

t4

whene do you stand on those

15

And

that's

when he

16

you

to

this instead. So --

a

t7
18

do

that

sunprising.

A I

19

said, you know, we have this othen --

You said

sudden on

mean,

I

Wess
Why

knew

20

known him even pnion

2L

a good

nappont. I

fonms? And they weren't done, of counse.
we would

Mitchell's nesignation was somewhat

did you fname it that

Wess.

Wess

is a fniend,

way?

a colleague

to his time as Assistant Secnetary.

made sune

like

that

he and

the

commanden wene

I

have

And we had

well knitted

23

of the task at hand, that is the integnation of State and
DOD, diplomacy and defense. And he had expnessed a numben of times

24

he's got young childnen and that

22

25

up

in

tenms

So

it

maybe he was coming towand

wasn't a complete sunprise that he chose to do
UNCLASS

I FIED

the

end.

that, but

 UNCLASS

7

it

2

decision.

3

4

was unexpected,

a

But

it

I

guess

30

I FIED

is the betten wond.

wasn't from

Obviously

it

was his

-- as fan as you knew, thene was no policy

on othen reason that he --

7

A Not that I'm awane of. He always told me he was -- you know,
again, little kids and mone time with the family.
a Ane you -- what happened nelated to Ambassador Yovanovitch

8

after you assumed duty, the duties of this job on Manch 18th?

5

5

9

A

So

that week, of counse, thene came this sont of

stonies.

There was a public pnosecuton

10

of very, veny negative

11

in Ukraine who was alleging things about the Ambassador.

72

in a highly politicized

I

pness

avalanche

Uknaine was

peniod pnion to thein Pnesidential election.

74

in my EUCOM capacity, furthen to
question you stanted and we got pantially thnough it in terms of

15

expenience

16

Scaparrotti fon a ship

L7

call in

13

18

actually

had

I

had

been thene

visit,

Odessa, pnobably

And

I

had

visited thene once with

the

USS

Mount Whitney,

with Uknaine.

in the summen, Iate

then in Febnuany when I already had

any

Genenal

that paid a port

summen

--

the

of

knew

2018.

that I

had been

20

visit
in Odessa and talked to Masha at that time. And we'd had a littIe

2L

convensation about what was she doing, what wene hen

22

fact one of the convensations

23

possibly succeeding

24

suddenly coming open.

19

25

nevectoned,

And so

I similanly

with

me

took a tnip

at

down

fon anothen U.S. ship

plans.

we had was she expressed an

EUCOM,

because obviously

hen toun ending, you know,
UNCLASS I

FIED

And in

intenest in

that job

was now

in the coming months, in

 UNCLASS

1

the summer of

2

commander

at

So then

3

2@L9,

EUCOM

this

I

quite enthused about that. In fact the

was

was

stonm

31

I F]ED

also quite enthused about that oppontunity.

of,

as

I litenally annived in the finst days,

4

all of these stonies wene comlng out, lots of pness inquinies to the

5

Eunopean Buneau pness

6

of al1 kinds of what seemed to

7

stonies were coming out about this.
And

8
9

it,

me

you know, became kind

very outlandish and unnealistic

of

of efforts to figune out whene is this
and

t1

nesponses

a

L2

one

of these media fnenzies, lots

coming fnom, what

is this

the press openation generating, of counse, tnying to

10

13

office, to the Department as a whole, allegations

to the quenies
Was

about,

genenate

fnom pness.

thene intennal discussion within the State Depantment

about the allegations themselves against hen?

--

14

A I

15

Bnechbuhl,

76

is, of counse, nesponsible fon all of the -- the Under Secnetany

t7

Political

discussed with

this,

And UInich

18

with David Ha1e, the

and also

on Policy

did

Affains

say:

pnimanily with the Counselon, Ulnich

and ovensees

Any idea whene

Unden Secretany, who

all of the geographic
this is

fon

buneaus.

coming from, what

this

19

ls about? We stanted sont of tnying to look into that, talking to the

20

post, of counse to Masha.

21

Uknaine, Geonge Kent, who

22

as

23

of Mission

24

to

25

My

deputy fon Eastenn Eunope, which includes

is a neal expert on the whole

well as the Caucasus that

actually,

he covens, and he had been the Deputy Chief

unden Masha Yovanovitch

be the DAS, he kind

negion

until

a yean pnion when he came back

of led and coondinated a look into that.

I did undenstand fnom Ulnich that thene had been, I think a yean
UNCLASS

I EIED

 UNCLASS

32

I EIED

in 20t8, a letten from Congnessman

1

previously on sometime

2

which had

3

pantisan, to which Ulrich said they had neven found anything to suggest

4

any foundation

criticized

Ambassadon Yovanovitch and accused hen

but cleanly this was coming back

7

covenage

8

And

9

so gneat blacking out

10

being

aften that that perhaps that had sort of ended,

6

in

of

to those allegations.

And he had thought

5

Sessions

Manch nefenred

in fact, it

was

again.

And

I

believe

to that letten from

-- the letter
of the

was neLeased

name,

it

but

was

some

of the

pness

Congressman Sessions.

with sont of

some not

cleanly that letten

fnom

2078.

a

11

Did the Department detenmine whethen on not any of the

L2

allegations that

13

Manch had any menit?

A

t4

came

The general

out about Ambassador Yovanovitch at the end of

-- not even genenal -- the view was thene was
that

15

neven any pnoof, was one wond

16

to

t7

night in fnont of me. Ultimately, the Pnosecuton,

who had

18

she as Ambassadon had given him a do-not-prosecute

list,

19

necanted

suggest

this. Ultimately --

was used, thene was no documentation

and

I don't have the full timeline
alleged that

he

ultimately

that. Thene was never anything to suggest this.
And I think centainly the Counselon undensconed that.

20

2l

think effonts were

22

Secnetary

23

to simply ask:

24

wniting this

25

some

to

made

at his 1evel

push back on some of these

or.

Whene ane you

tweeting

this?

tweet comes out and then

and

this?

Because,

is

and

thein neponting,

On what

basis ane you

of counse, this is

netweeted

UNCLASS I

FIED

I

with the suppont of the

jounnalists

getting

And

common now,

with no basis at all

and

 33

FIED

UNCLASS I

1

it

genenates more questions.
And some

2

3

of

them were

neally not just highly, highly inaccunate

and inflammatony, but thneatening also

to Ambassadon Yovanovitch.

And

8

this affects not only, you know, oun policy, oun standing, the wonk
of the embassy, which was, you know, extnemely busy.
It's a lange mission with a lot of very handwonking people wonking
on pnognams to fight connuption, to pnomote economic nefonms, to work
on enengy divensification, to pnomote antitnust, and tny to help

9

Uknaine emenge fnom the

oliganchical

10

thein potential, to help

them punsue

11

with obviously fighting litenally a hot

72

Russia.

4
5

6
7

A11

13

that

that

wonk

was being

system

thein cleanly

15

Pnosecuton had put out these nasty

16

allegations about the

L7

Pnesident Ponoshenko, on my thind day

18

technically

19

my Uknaine

20

but

27

Washington, we called hen

22

was unacceptable,

23

Ambassadon

25

has kept them fan fnom
Westenn

onientation,

thein eastenn front

fnom

That was key to oun policy

centainly distnacted fnom. In fact, because the

and

24

wan on

is vitally impontant.

74

my

that

allegations, these untrue

Ambassadon, and he was known

-- in fact, I

to

be close to

guess

it

would

be

founth day -- Thunsday, March 21st, with the advice of

folks,

we

called

in -- the Ambassadon

was

not available,

-- the Deputy Chief of Mission of the Ukrainian Embassy hene in
to

in this

in to deliven a stern

have Govennment

of

demanche, saying,

Uknaine figunes maligning oun

way.

a Who met with the Ukrainian official?
A I did, as the
UNCLASS

T

this

FIED

 UNCLASS

a Just you?
A We1I, I'm sune I

1

2
3

a
A

5

You wene

the highest nanking

staff with me fnom the

7

8

--

Yes.

a -- Depantment official?
A YeS.
a You mentioned something

6

10

would have had

Uknaine

4

9

34

I EIED

related to these allegations.

about thene being follow-on pness

Do you know who was

allegationi and accusations in the media anound this

time?

A I mean, you can look at all those media neponts and they quote

LL

of people.

--

Mr. Giuliani, of counse, was one of

L2

a

13

the main voices of this and he, himself, was on

14

diGenova,

15

which then, you know, they sont of feed on each

16

was

L7

to

18

wene going

19

oun Ambassadon and our mission there.

numben

Thene was

ain.

Thene was Mn.

I necall, who was also thene and a stneam of pness neponts
othen.

And

that neally

lasting that whole week, and thnough the next week we continued

be bombanded with

20

a

2L

THE

to

Who

this.

say about

And

I

was pushing

fon nesponses, what

we

this in terms of the pushing back, defending

did you have those convensations with?

CHAIRMAN: Could

I

befone we - - before you answen

that.

What

the Uknainian nesponse when you did that demarche with the Ukrainian

22

was

23

countenparts

24

A

25

amplifying these

to

naise these concenns?

of Mission was montified.
young diplomat who did nepont that immediately back.
The Deputy Chief

UNCLASSI FIED

And she was
And

I

a

believe

 35

UNCLASS I

1

FIED

the President himself on centainly his staff in Uknaine offered

some

5

side. The
Ambassadon, who netunned, I think, a day on 2 laten, called me. I was
in the midst of just sont of meeting these people, because, as I said,
it was litenally my finst week on the job, and he came in to undenscone

6

that,

7

valued the Ambassadon, they valued the U.S. nelationship, and all that

8

the United States was doing to suppont Ukraine's progness and thein

9

effonts to defend themselves against the Russia aggression.

2
3

4

apologies and tried

this

Ambassadon

down on

the Uknainian

politics in Uknaine

was nasty

THE CHAIRMAN: And

10
11

you know,

to tone things

and, You know, they

this was nelayed to you by the Uknainian

to the United

States?

74

in, he followed up the
demanche. He was not available when we called. The standand
pnocedune would have been to call him in. He was, I think, tnaveling

15

on the West Coast

16

the

L7

meeting with him

72
13

REEKER: Yeah, he came

AMBASSADOR

or someplace

demanche and

at

why

19

AMBASSADOR

his deputy

this.

came

to

And then

neceive

I

had

a

point.

some

THE CHAIRMAN: And

what's the Ambassador's

REEKER: He's now

name?

gone. I can pnobably find it.

Chalyy, Ambassadon Chalyy, C-h-a-1-y-y.
THE

2L
22

it

23

as well.

CHAIRMAN: And was

it

Ambassadon Chalyy who infonmed you

would have been then Pnesident Ponoshenko had expnessed

24
25

that's

our stenn concerns about

18

20

and

AFIBASSADOR

REEKER:

I think

we heand

Kyiv.
UNCLASS

I FIED

that through

his

that

negnet

oun embassy

in

 35

FIED

UNCLASS I

BY MR. GOLDMAN:

1

a

2

You said

that

Giuliani

Rudy

was one

of the fonemost

3

individuals discussing these allegations in public.

4

of

5

allegations fon the anticle in the

whethen

A I

6

you awane

the Pnesident had commented on tweeted about these
do not

Jn., netweeted

8

in my view, inconnect

9

a

10

attention on

Wene

paper?

recall specifically. I

7

on tweeted something

know

his

son Donald Trump,

to that - - the same thing with some,

statements about Ambassadon Yovanovitch.

you awane of whethen

FOX News anound

A Yes. I

11

Wene

mean,

if I

this

this received some pnominent

time?

look thnough emails

-- my -- the Ukraine

that, he being the senion

L2

office,

13

guy on my team, also with the knowledge and the expentise on Uknaine,

t4

knows

15

dynamics.

and Geonge Kent sont

of

ovenseeing

all the playens, all the -So

1.6

knows

they wene with the embassy and his office compiling

of which I didn't

77

neponts and fonwarding

18

nead

19

how

20

question that the Counselon was asking.

everything, but

it

the language, the political

me

volumes,

we were

all of these

have a chance

tnying to keep tnack of the stories

was genenating and whene was

this

coming

to

and

from, which was the

23

I thought
captured well the context, you know, what was happening, who it was
coming fnom, and how it was demonstnably wnong. I was forwanding those

24

to

21
22

25

And

I was fonwanding not all,

Unden Secretany Hale and

a

You said over

but summanies, ones that

to Counselon Bnechbuhl.

the next

week

UNCLASS

or two thene were intennal

I FIED

 37

UNCLASS

I FIED

1

discussions within the Depantment about a potential nesponse to defend

2

the Ambassador. Can you descnibe what convensations you had and what

3

necommendations you made?

A

4

Most

of the pnocess of

developing press guidance

on

office in conjunction with the subject

5

statements stants with oun pness

6

matten expents drafting potential guidance on statements, with the

7

embassy

obviously contnibuting, and I think

8

herself

who had

9

this.
And

10

a clean intenest in getting

that goes thnough a cleanance

-- often it

Ambassadon Yovanovitch
some

pnocess

solid push back on

in the Depantment

and

11

I

L2

myself, and then

13

floon fon the

L4

David HaIe, and then "Cr " Ulnich Bnechbuhl, the Counselon, who wene

15

kind of in the main

would

"P,

would get thnough the Buneau up

it

would move upstains

to

to

what we

my

deputies

and

call the seventh

" known as the Under Secnetany fon Po1itical Affains,
my senion

go-to people on this.

UNCLASS

] F]ED

 UNCLASS

1

lL2:O3 p.m. l
BY MR. GOLDMAN:

2

a

3

4

what

And

--

descnibe the convensations

Thene was an immediate statement issued by

6

specifically nejecting the allegations.

7

followed veny closely on

LL
L2

tny to use them. Let's

10

Okay.

13

15

to panticulan
And we

z0th,

did get a nesponse to the

that time circulating

18

Uknaine, and

when a

anound

queny

lot of this stuff had
nesponse

that thene wene numons at

the dismissal of the

citing articles in

And so we had a statement

The

--

Hill

Ambassadon

to

publication.

a nesponse. lust to be technical,

20

it's

2L

neleased by the Depantment. And they sent

22

by Deputy Assistant Secretany,

23

Secnetary

25

of that, that

quenies fnom jounnalists.

77

24

Were you awane

out - - and the way the pness operation usually works, it's

come

19

Department

see.

So by Wednesday, March

t4

16

the

to the publication of the finst article?
Yeah, if you give me a chance hene, I'11 -And by the way, feel fnee to neview youn emails as we go on
they ane helpful to you.
Exactly. That's why I brought them. So I think I should

A
a
today if
A

9

that you had -- well,

withdrawn.

5

8

38

I FIED

a nesponse to the pness queny, vensus a fonmal statement that is

DAS

me a

Kent, by

D

dnaft, which

was

cleared

staff, that's the Deputy

staff, the Unden Secnetany of State, and by the
NSC. And then they came to me looking fon cleanance.
This was actually in response to a Ukrainian TV queny, this
of State;

P

UNCLASS I

FIED

 39

UNCLASS

] FIED

t

question on numons cinculating about the dismissal of the Ambassadon,

2

because

3

fined on she's gone. And, obviously, that

that

was a theme

that had emenged, was, oh, she's alneady
was

of panticulan intenest

5

in Uknaine as a stony line.
And I did make a suggestion

6

the onden of sentences in a panticular panagnaph. And

7

that statement if

8

statement

9

asked

4

to

--

that aftennoon, just switching

I

can nead you

-- or, again, it's not technically

you want

nead you

hene

been

the nesponse, the panticulan

panagraph

a

that I

be moved.

t2

a Who was on this email chain with you?
A 0h, this is lots of staff throughout the Buneau, the pness
office staff. And then I fonwanded those up to Ulnich, I think. I

13

was sending him emails, you know,

10
11

The

t4

fainly often.

on the Thursday then, the 21st, fonwanded

office fon Uknaine

of this pnoviding sont of -- this

to the seventh

15

up a package

16

floor, to the Secnetany's office, giving kind of the stony,

t7

tnanspined oven the

18

this

19

caIled John Solomon, nelating to the Uknainian Pnosecuton

20

Lutsenko, whom I mentioned eanlien, and then pnoviding some facts in

2t

tenms

what we knew about

23

a
A

24

funthen

25

continued

22

last couple of days, what The Hill

op-ed which neaIly kind

of

Was

of stanted this,

what

had

had published,

an op-ed by a

jounnalist
Genenal,

it.

a nesponse to the pness queny ultimately pnovided?

Yes,

--

was up

I believe -- I believe it was. And then thene wene

thene wene funthen questions, queries by the media, and

to

use

--

sometimes,

I think, with minor

UNCLASS

IE]ED

we

 40

UNCLASSI FIED

1

nefinements

language

that

we had.

a What was the appnoved language that ultimately was issued?
A I'm just tnying to make sune. The cleared guidance, this

2
3

4

is

5

so as

6

it begins:

7

United States hene

8

authonized

9

statements.

on Thunsday the 21st

of

Manch, cleaned guidance fnom

of the evening of the 20th, as all this

had come

"Ambassador Yovanovitch repnesents

out. I

in Uknaine" -- this is what the embassy was
to put out -- "and Amenica stands behind hen and hen
The

allegations by the Uknainian Pnosecuton Genenal are

not tnue and are intended to tarnish the neputation of

11

Yovanovitch.

12

the United States,

13

of the fantastic

'J.4

Politicians, pundits,

and

15

opinions as pant of the

political pnocess. It

15

ane

77

stnuggle against conruption.

a

18

mean,

the President of the

10

true.

last night,

Such

Such

Now,

Ambassadon

allegations only senve the connupt. Uknaine, Iike

is

and

a fnee countny with a fnee pness. That

unifying qualities of U.S.

and Uknainian

is

one

society.

the media ane entitled to share thein
does not mean the claims

attacks redouble oun nesoLve to help Uknaine win the
"

following this statement on

nesponse

to a queny,

19

you have additional conversations with anyone above you

20

Depantment about

2L

mone

issuing a statement to defend

did

in the State

Ambassadon Yovanovitch

pensuasively and powenfully?

A I did.

22

We were

trying for a statement. As this went on,

23

dealing with this kind of pness thing, you know, you give youn nesponse,

24

and

25

goes,

centainly in

if it

my

experience

continues, and

it

was wise

to then see whene the stony

it did continue
UNCLASS I

FIED

on.

 41.

UNCLASS

a

1

just to

And

I FIED

be c1ean, you have,

in youn caneen, you've had

lot of expenience dealing with pness mattens in the State Depantment,

2

a

3

having

wonked

8

A Yeah.
a -- at that office multiple times, night?
A To be clean and fain, the pness world, the wonld of the media,
has changed dnamatically since the days when I conducted daily
bniefings and dealt with the pness as the focus of my job. We didn't

9

have

4
5

6
7

Twitten.

Thene was

that's --

a

news cycIe.

just to intenject hene, because it gets to the

10

But

11

point you

t2

Affains in

13

demanched and

l4

up and say something about

15

did put out a statement through thein ministry spokespenson, Zelenko,

16

saying how: The ministny

L7

Ambassador and thanks

18

contnibution

made

So

20

But

2L
22
23

24
25

does

eanlien, I found the statement by the Ministny of Foneign

nesponse

that

19

and

to the

demanche,

that as the

chainman asked,

we

said we nealIy expected the Uknainian Govennment to step

this.

the Ministny of Foneign Affains

And

fnuitfully

coopenates

with the

U.S.

the Amenican diplomat and hen team for thein

to building stnategic pantnenships between oun states.
was an impontant piece.

this --

so getting back

the stony go? It kept
So by Fniday

night,

to

my

point about, you know, whene

coming.

Manch 22nd,

I was sent then Saturday monning

a roundup of Fniday night U.S. media developments.

And oun pness

office infonmation officen in Kyiv was tnying to moniton evenything
fon us and send in bundles that sont of captuned this.
UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS I

And

7

this included some of the nastiest of the tweets that included

to "lynching"

implied violence, nefenences

2

some

3

Ambassador, which we turned oven, on wene tunned

4

the secunity people as

5

Launa Ingnaham

6

Sessions had sent

7
8
9
10
11
L2

42

FIED

a

And

that

just

weII.

over, obviously, to

details, the pnognam about --

Some

the letten that

nefenenced then

in May of

against the

by

then-Congnessman

2@18.

so the necond

is clean, you'ne neviewing emails that

you had fnom that time where you're

A Yes, sin.
summarizing what is included in them?
a
A Exactly, yes.
a And so I had asked you eanlien about convensations
of

about

13

issuing a

L4

executives on fnom the seventh floon and you indicated you did have

15

those convensations.

16

mone fonmaL defense

Can you descnibe a

77

convensations

18

A

19

20
21.

22
23

24
25

Ambassadon Yovanovitch fnom the

litt1e bit

mone

genenally the natune of those

?

So by

the weekend, as

I

noted, you know, with

this sti1l

going, so now we ane on the weekend of the 23rd, I've been in town 5 days,

I said, passing the stuff to me, excenpts from the
vanious pness things, tnyingto sont of compile it. And I did fonwand
it up to Under Secnetany HaIe, copying the Counselon on the 23rd in
the aftennoon: "Looping you in" -- this is to Ulnich
Bnechbuhl -- "Looping you in on the latest I've neceived." And the
nefenences I mentioned befone that include Twitten-based thneats
and my team was, as

UNCLASS

I FIED

 43

UNCLASS

t

against the

FIED

Ambassador.

And then Under Secnetany Hale

2

T

said he "defenred to coms people, "

folks, "but I believe Masha" -- that is,

3

on the communications

4

Ambassadon Yovanovitch

5

disnespectful and neaffirm hen loyalty as

6

Senvice officen

POTUS

"ShouLd deny on

and

the necond saying anything
Ambassador and Foreign

the Constitution."

And we tnansmitted

7

A What is the date of that email?
A That is the 23nd of Manch.
a Is Ambassadon Yovanovitch on that email on is that just -A No, that was his reply to what I had fonwanded up to him and

8
9
10
11
12

to

--

to --

22

a Can you just tell us who else was on that email?
A Unden Secnetany Hale and Counselon Bnechbuhl.
a And you?
A He was neplying to me.
a So the thnee of you
A Yes.
a Okay.
A Let's see hene
a While you'ne looking thnough, if I could follow up on
something else. You said Rudy Giuliani was one of the people

23

prominently pnomoting these allegations

13

L4
15
16

t7
18
19

20

2t

24
25

Pnion

in the media.

to the publication of these anticles and Mn. Giuliani's

comments on them, wene you awane

of Mr. Giuliani's intenest in issues

UNCLASS

I FIED

 L

nelated

44

I FIED

UNCLASS

to Uknaine?

2

A I

3

mean, mind

would say

I

had a vague awaneness thnough

the pness. I

5

I think I was awane
of things he had said bnoadly neganding Uknaine, but it certainly wasn't
something that I was tnacking panticulanly. It didn't have a

6

nelevance.

4

8
9

I

had been back now 5 days, and

So when you assumed the

a
A
a

7

you,

job on Manch 17th

18th.

0n 18th, nather, did you have any specific knowledge from

10

within the Depantment as to any involvement on interest

r,

Mn. Giuliani?

12

A

No,

by

I got a betten idea of it laten on with George,

my Uknaine

13

expent, the Deputy Assistant Secretary fon Ukraine and Eastenn Eunope,

74

who

gone thnough and

tnied to captune

15

what he then descnibed as foun diffenent narratives

that were being

16

pushed

laten had sont of, with his team,

in all of this.

So by

17

Apnil the 1st, by the end of the second week, essentially,

of this,

18

aften 2

L9

he called them, foun narnatives

weeks

Geonge had

This one that had stanted

20

22

the effonts against conruption.

--

had

in

Nannative two was a theme about 2016 collusion between Uknaine

23

25

the anticonnuption, that thene

the U.S., by Ambassadon Yovanovitch on

been undue pnessure by

as

that wene emerging.

it,

27

24

kind of identified foun stnands,

and

the Clinton
The

thind

campaign.

was

-- there was --

how he

UNCLASS

wnote

I EIED

it

hene was,

this

"Biden

 UNCLASS

--

in

Hunten Biden, and Bunisma he put in

1

(Bunisma)"

2

panentheses, because

3

point, connupt gas company.
And

4

Biden as

45

I FIED

I don't think I

the founth nannative that

that was in all of this

we

knew what Bunisma was

at that

sont of identified as a general

was neganding

the

Sonos onganization,

5

theme

6

because one NGO,

7

assistance pnognams had also neceived a gnant fnom the Open Society

8

Institute.

a

9

called

AnTAC,

that had neceived gnants thnough U.S.

And based on what Mr. Kent explained

to you, either in email

that you gathened about these

10

on othenwise, and any othen infonmation

11

foun diffenent stnands, wene you awane of any

t2

foun stnands

validity to any of these

of accusations on allegations?

A I was not.
a Was Mn. Kent, to youn knowledge?
A No. And, again, he was positioned to

13

t4
15
16

pnovide context because he had served

t7

was

18

happening.

be able

at the embassy in

to sont of
Uknaine and

familian with these nannatives and some of these things that

are

2L

I think, just fnom reading mone necent pness neponts, he
descnibed that to you in his own deposition before you.
a Right. I just was asked -- the question just nelated to,

22

at that time, did you have any indication

23

thene was any

19

20

And

fnom him on anyone else

24

validity to these allegations?
A No, sir.

25

a Okay. I think

oun time
UNCLASS

is up, and I will
I F]ED

now

yield

that

 UNCLASS I

A

1

46

F]ED

WeI1, maybe we can come back to something else negarding the

3

of a statement.
a Yes. We'Il pick that uP next time.

4

MR. GOLDMAN: GNCAI.

5

Mn. Caston.

2

question

BY MR. CASTOR:

5

a

7

Ambassador,

if

you have something on the

tip of youn tongue

10

it might be helpful to just continue on that.
A Okay. lust because I am dealing with these reams of papen.
And, you know, if these ane just emails about Uknaine, one of my 50

11

countnies, you can imagine the

8
9

neganding a statement,

numben

of bindens.

And

this

was

in the

15

finst week. So, yeah, exactly.
So this, again, is Manch 25th, whene we had tnied by the end of
that finst week of at1 of this to say, you know, can we put out -- and
Masha was intenested in some kind of statement, not just the nesponse

16

to

77

Depantment.

L2
13

14

18

quenies

that

we wene

doing, but a fonmal statement fnom the

And, you know, queries continued

to

come

19

instance, the -- specifically on some of the

20

Ingraham and Sean Hannity, we

21

allegations thene.

22

And we fonwanded

it

in following,

FOX News pnognams

fon

of

Launa

got a lot of questions about the

around fon cleanance,

to put it out.

And

I

the staff on Monday the 25th, !2:@4 P.ffi., fnom the Special

23

was sent from

24

Assistant to the

25

would be the Unden Secnetany

Unden Secretany

for Political Affairs:

-- "says no statement."

UNCLASS I

FIED

rrPr'

-- that

 47

UNCLASS I

And then

1

that actually -- that

2

to the

3

highlighting the

5

a

Do you have any

A I don't.
to

use the pness guidance

L2

to offen a statement,

15
16
L7

18

P.

be no statement. "P says

no

additional infonmation about

why

that

that

we had,

that had been cleared.

Did you even come to leann why thene was a neluctance

a Okay.

L4

me,

There would be no statement. We would continue

11

73

office, which then fonwanded it to

decision was made?

9
10

of

not sent to me. That was sent

statement. "

7

8

nesponse

was

a So that was no statement?
A Connect. He said thene will

4

6

Eunopean Buneau pness

F]ED

an additional statement?

A No, that was the decision that came down.
a And the Ambassadon was subsequently necalled eanly.
A Actually, I do not believe that that is a factual statement.
a Okay.
A The Ambassadon nemained -- we ane talking now Manch.
a
A

Right.

23

this peniod, which was about 2 weeks.
I -- and as I indicated, I think as we looked at why now, whene is all
of this coming fnom, Uknaine was in a highly political season with
Pnesidential elections around the around the cornen.
As I said, in that peniod, the finst week of March 18th into the

24

second week

25

Counselon and Unden Secnetary Hale

19

20

2t
22

We

got thnough

of

30th, my intenlocutons

Manch 25th thnough

in

UNCLASS

tenms

I FIED

of what could

wene the

be

the

pness

 UNCLASS

1

48

I FIED

guidance, what potential statements.
By

2

the end then of the month, the 31st of Manch, was the Uknaine

3

Presidential election, the finst nound, and that's

4

had an extremely strong showing and

5

a

6
7

8
9

things,

when Mn. Zelensky

I think, kind of died down

bit maybe as thene was mone of a focus on Zelensky and the 3 weeks
until the nunoff.
We had, of counse, in Washington the NATO ministenial. I know
I was extnaondinanily tied up and focused on that. Masha Yovanovitch
remained as Ambassadon and at post, albeit I know that this continued

10

to

11

focused on covening the elections, doing the analysis and diplomatic

t2

neponting

hum

below.

And as you can imagine,

the

embassy was extnemely busy

that is thein bnead and butten.
And I netunned then to Europe, my finst tnip after

13

to

coven

this. I left

on the 8th

of Apnil

and was

having

in --

come

back in

L4

back

15

Stuttgart, whene, of counse, I remained still technically assigned.

15
77
18

I

I

to speak at in Bnussels, the Daimlen Fonum,
and thene were fanewells that week fon Genenal Scapannotti, the
commanden, who was leaving, both in Benlin, honored by the Genmans.
had a forum

had

20

it was while I was stil1 in Genmany that the stony picked
back up again in, I think, in anticipation of the second round of

2L

elections, which

19

And then

wene held on oun Easten

holiday, Apnil 21st.

24

I necall that on Apnil 21st, I
spoke with Masha Yovanovitch in Kyiv. The focus of that phone call
was about hen intenest -- I think I mentioned earlien -- in possibly

25

succeeding me as hen next assignment, you know, given

22
23

And,

in fact,

fnom my calendar,

UNCLASS I

F]ED

that

hen toun

 49

UNCLASS]F]ED

t

to its

was coming

3-yean conclusion.

4

I believe it was in that phone call whene she told me that
she had thought about it and it wasn't the night fit fon hen. She wasn't
going to punsue it. And, in fact the commandens had all said, oh, they

5

would love

6

Eunopean Command commandens were eagen

7

position. But she had decided against that.

2

3

And

And then

8
9

to have Masha thene again.

again, and

I

it

got

was on

that

media stonm happened

Unden

LT

Secnetany and

t2

thein wonds, suddenly much wonse.

the head of

that the

the 24th of Apnil, as well as with the

to

on

have hen take oven that

spoke

10

him

to

that

I

ca}ls

some ungent

in a phone call

weekend

Hen neputation was such

fnom Counselon

human nesounces,

Bnechbuhl.

that things

had

gotten, in

15

-- without anything explicit,
because we were speaking on open lines -- thene was unhappiness fnom
the White House that Ambassadon Yovanovitch was still thene, and the

16

belief that

77

that she needed to

18

head

19

Ambassadon Canol

13

t4

Thene was

of

2t

So we

22

in

23

it.

24
25

to

unhappiness

come

come back

back, the belief in the State Depantment

to Washington fon consultations.

And the

nesources, the Dinecton Genenal of the Foneign Service,

Perez, made that

call to

hen.

I talked to Masha. I think we had a WhatsApp convensation.

just

coming

lot of

she needed

human

And

20

a

had

to

this

convensation about, you know, was she intenested

EUCOM? She had

said, no,

she was

gnateful, but that

was

texting, it's okay to share that with
General Scapannotti and Wo1tens, she told me, and let me know -- I asked
Hene fnom

the

WhatsApp

UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS I

1

hen

to let

2

the

head

3

to let

me know when

of

Caro1,

with the Political Militany

Bureau

to continue to focus on a successon at

EUCOM.

,

human nesources

and

me

speaking

said: Fine, fine to do that.
Then on the 24th aften these calls with Ulnich, and then Masha

And Masha

4
5

told

she needed

6

had been

7

call

8

was going

9

had suddenty,

10

feel comfontable with

to

you

them know we need

50

FIED

to

come

into the

embassy

to take

an important

the Dinector Genenal and she was asking me if she knew

fnom

on.

And

what

I did tell her in a call with Ulnich he said things

quote, "changed for the wonser" unquote, but he couldn't

share anything on an open line.
Then

11
12

Perez

13

next.

I

had a

call from Canol -- that

-- who also offered
I

no

would be Ambassador

details, but was about to caII you,

Masha,

said to Masha in text message: "So I'm langely in the dank,

L4

And

15

but it doesn't

sound

good. Let me know if you want to taIk."

L9

at that time hosting a large neception and she was
going into the embassy to talk to Carol. And I believe Canol told hen
that she really should come back to Washington. Canol didn't have a
pictune of this, but just that she needed to -- she felt Masha should

20

come back

16

t7
18

2L
22
23

24
25

And she was

to Washington.
So that's when she came back to Washington. That would not be
considered necalled. She was told to come back to Washington, which
I believe she did on Fniday, the 26th of April.
I, myself, netunned to Washington, anniving Sunday evening, the
28th of Apni}. And then we had a senies of meetings on the 29th, whene
UNCLASS I

FIED

 51

UNCLASS

7

2
3

the discussion was about what to

T

FIED

do.

at this point, I should add, the expectation -- I
believe Masha had set a date of, I think it was anound July 5th on
You know,

5

I was doing with Counselon
Brechbuhl in a separate tnack, but, obviously, nelated because it had

6

to do with the chief of mission job in Uknaine,

4

7

July 8th,

in terms of the planning that

and

That was what

I

was tasked

we had a couple

with doing, was how do we coven oun

trying to identify a new penson to be pnoposed fon

8

mission.

9

nomination as Ambassadon, and then we wene tnying

10

we coven,

tlle wene

aften

of pIans.

to figune out how

Masha would depart.

L2

is, typically,
in the Foneign Senvice, a transition day fon these things. You have

13

youn Independence Day neception as a sort

11

L4
15

The date

of early July was out thene

of fanewelI, and then you
leave. I think she was looking at JuIy 5th on 6th, possibly 8th,
something in that nange.

16

And, weII, why don't

t7

a

18
19

because Ju1y

So you

you have more questions.

said that the tenm "necal-I" wasn't accunate.

would be the wond

A
State, I

I let you, if

What

to descnibe her depantune fnom the embassy?

So, when she met on the 29th with the Deputy Secnetany of

22

to sit in with that, and I joined that meeting. I
nead the pness neponts of hen deposition to you whene the Deputy
Secnetany is quoted as telling hen: "You've done nothing wnong. " And

23

that is

20
2L

was asked

what

I

heand

24

The pnoblem

25

what we tenm, had

at

sitting

hand was

thene as weII.

that, essentially, the President

had

Iost,

lost confidence in her as Ambassadon in Uknaine.
UNCLASSIF]ED

And

 UNCLASS

52

I EIED

next?

the Deputy Secnetany of

7

the question then was, what

2

State, to

3

wanted

4

undenstood

-- that with the media stonm and the focus on this, that

5

going back

to Kyiv and staying

6

difficult.

to

fact,

And

necollection, gave hen the option to decide what date she

netunn, undenstanding -- and

Masha was

7

8

my

comes

I think we all

thnough JuIy could be, you know,

staying on in Washington fon a preplanned event. In

she had alneady asked

fon, before she came back at the

behest

10

of the Dinecton Genenal so quickly on the 26th, she had asked fon
permission to come back to Washington, be away fnom post, to neceive

11

an awand,

12

into thein haII of fame, an event we were looking

13

something which speaks

L4

pnofessionally and pensonally.

9

to

be honored

She detenmined

15

at the National Defense University and inducted

to the

esteem

fonwand

to, and, again,

within which she is

neganded both

at this meeting she would stay thnough the -- that

19

I was able to get back from tnavel
with the Secretany to actually be thene fon that event. And then I
think she went back to Kyiv on the 10th of May, and then decided to
depant fuI1y. She packed out and left on the 20th of May, which,

20

coincidentally,

16

t7
18

event, which was on the 9th of May.

a

27
22

was

the day of the inaugunation of Pnesident Zelensky.

And so you said

the tenm "being necalled" wasn't the right

word. Is thene a betten wond?

A

23

Thene

is

a tenm of

that,

hen

--

fon Masha as a penson and a pnofessional.

24

was

25

centainly, and I

know many

of othen colleagues,
UNCLASS

1

FIED

my

gneatest concenn

None

of us -- we1I, I

again,

wene

not pleased about

 53

UNCLASS I

F]ED

1

this.

2

inaccunate and unpleasant things being said about a colleague,

3

pnofessional, about a United States Ambassadon in the pness,

4

panticulanly

No one wants

in

to

see someone go thnough

this

and such, you know,
a

hen own countny.

6

-- but I wanted to make sune Masha was going to be okay.
Obviously, I had two responsibilities. One was to the post, making

7

sune oun post was pnopenly and 1egaIIy covened, and one was

8

as a

5

And

human

being, as a colleague, as a United States

So when she made the decision

9

I fu1ly

that.

to

And so

make

her last day the 20th of

I think the best tenm would be

May,

11

to

L2

6 weeks eanlien than the date we had been focusing on.

that she ended

a

13
L4

say

senve as

A

15

hen assignment on

What was youn nole

the
So

in

the 20th of May, which

helping select

that

was something

I

t7

always be involved.

possibility that that was going to

20

to take over fon Ambassadon Yovanovitch,

2L

covenage.

I

Unden Secnetary wanted

want

to note why.

23

chief of mission,

24

when Geonge Kent had

25

Secnetany unden Wess

we nealized we needed

some

into that spot

I FIED

deputy,

a

fnom anothen position

come be Deputy

That deputy was assigned

UNCLASS

was

time

the yean befone to

Mitche]I.

thene

to

in

Ambassadon Yovanovitch had a

who had moved

left

--

pnoduce an Ambassadon

no

And

to

closely with

nealized that the nomination pnocess was not

19

22

Ambassadon Taylon

was assigned, wonked

Ulnich Bnechbuhl, the Counselon. AIso the

Once we

was

Charge?

16

18

Masha

Ambassadon.

10

supponted

to

Assistant

to

move

in

 UNCLASS

1.

the spring to

2

Stockholm, Sweden.

become

54

I FIED

the Deputy Chief of Mission at oun

embassy

in

4

first I said: WeII, she's been neaLly good.
place. She should stay. You know, we don't need -- it

5

had no Ambassadon

6

the confinmation pnocess, and thene was ne other senion Foneign Senvice

7

officen at post.

8

to Stockholm.

3

At

in Stockholm.

So we

felt

He was

we had

She knows the

tunned out

we

in the pnocess, but not thnough

to 1et the DCM leave Kyiv to go

11

in Kyiv -- did I just
misspeak? she needed to leave Kyiv to go to Stockholm. Anothen
officen in Kyiv stepped up, Senion Officer Joseph Pennington, to be

L2

the Acting Deputy Chief of Mission, and the

13

was coming from Embassy

L4

expenience, no language.

9
10

Another senion Foneign Senvice officen

feeling,

And my

15

new Deputy

Chief of Mission

Panis, and she, a gneat officen, had no Uknaine

supponted by my highen-ups, was

that it

was

16

absolutely unfain to thnow hen into this situation which was in focus.

17

So we wene

18

We

19

ane usually

20

ambassadors. Thene wene a numben

21

process, sont of who could be,

22

to Uknaine.

23

tnying to find

have a nosten

And

someone who

could act as Change d'Affaines.

of people known as WAE, while actually employed, who

netired senion Foneign Senvice officens, netined

we

the one guy on thene

thene.

got out the

who was

And we, as pant

list

of this

of fonmen ambassadons

potentially available

who was

24

not involved in business on aligned with, you know, one political side

25

on another

in

Uknaine was Ambassadon
UNCLASS

Bill

I EIED

Taylon, who was at that time

 55

UNCLASS I

t

FIED

executive vice pnesident at the U.5. Institute

of

Peace.

3

him: Would you be intenested and available,
potentially, to do this job? And he said yes. And so we punsued that.

4

And

5

but ultimately

2

And so we approached

it

was a complicated

-- ultimately,

They looked

6

administnative, buneaucnatic thing to do it,

at diffenent

ways he could be

7

official title.

Finally, they

8

go and got there

in

a

9
10
11.

72

he agreed and he was appnoved.

wonked

sent,

that out.

unden what

And he

-- what

did agnee to

June, eanly June.

Did you have any discussions with Unden Secnetary HaIe on

Counselon Bnechbuhl about the

tnicky external envinonmental factons

in play that led to the Yovanovitch situation?
A What do you mean by tnicky?

19

A WeII, the Rudy Giuliani, the President's unhappiness, the
statements made by the Pnosecuton Genenal. It was -- I think it has
been described to us, vaniously, as a bit of a snake pit.
A I don't necaIl that tenm specifically, but it's not a bad
descniption, I suppose.
Yeah. No, I mean that was -- cleanly, pant of the challenge was,
you know, a difficult time in Uknaine to be putting someone in, aII

20

of these allegations about the U.S. Embassy on Ambassadon, which wene

2L

making

13

L4
15
16

t7
18

22

difficult oun veny impontant tasks thene, things that wene, YoU
know, I think, cnitical to the U.S. intenest, national secunity

23

intenest, foneign policy pnionities,

24

Uknaine

25

wan.

is

a countny that

is pantially

nemembening

that, you know,

occupied by Russia and in a hot

UNCLASSIFIED

 UNCLASS

And so

1

56

IFIED

that, combined by the political

it

scenanio

a very

in the

difficult

2

the pness, the allegations thene,

3

position, which is

4

would have the backgnound and capabilities, who would be

5

send themselves

5

we wene veny

7

on.

a

8
9
10

why we wene

into this,

made

and

States,

delicate

viewing, you know, who would be --

as you descnibe

it,

snake

pit.

who

willing to

I think

And

fontunate that Ambassadon Taylon was willing to take that

Did the Depantment make any commitments to Ambassadon Taylon

that they would have his back on help

him

with these extennal

envinonmental factons?

A

11

to

He wanted

be sune

to be veny clean --

that Ukraine policy

L2

wanted

13

that our support fon Ukraine

74

to

15

militany actions

nefonm and oun support

And he was

16

I

was going

that

to continue as it

its Westenn onientation

and

its

to

He

he

was,

desine

fon them against the Russian malign

was going

wonnied.

and

on he was very clear

and

continue.

did expness concenns. You know,

with him neflect that

-- about that.

some

of

77

the WhatsApps

18

felt if the policy was not going to

19

But as he was waiting fon the buneaucnacy, the buneaucnatic processes

20

to catch up to

2t

this.

22
23

24
25

had

see

if this

Because he

remain, then he wasn't the guy.

would be possible, he was also waiting fon

in touch with
Ulnich Bnechbuhl. I met him fon the finst time on the 2nd of May, just
And he

neally wanted to see the Secnetany.

He was

to make sune that's connect. Too many notes.
Yeah, the 2nd May, aften I'd come back and all of this
UNCLASS]TIED

had happened

 57

UNCLASS ]

FIED

1

with Masha, I met Bill Taylon late that week, tnaveled again on the

2

5th of May,

3

cenemony on

4

to

5

d'Affaires, obviously, he is neponting thnough -- to the

meet

I

Secnetary. Got back in time fon Masha's

the 9th of May. But BiIl had made clean he neally wanted

with the Secnetany here, since, as Ambassadon -- as Change

And we

6

depanted with the

did

have

that meeting on the 28th of

May, and he

7

meeting, I believe "confident" would be the night wond,

8

comfontable, and neady

9

to -- shontly

to

do

that.

't

at post and he has been a tennific
Was

be gone

the 1st

that weekend. But eanly lune he anrived

11

a

and

I think,

of June,

so he couldn

left that

then, ultimately, got out

theneaften,

10

72

And

Secnetany.

leaden.

there any undenstanding

among

younself,

Unden Secnetany

13

Hale, Counselon Bnechbuhl, the Secnetary, that the situation

L4

to

15

needed

be monitoned closely?

A

Yeah, we

-- I

mean,

I think, obviously,

Uknaine

is impontant.

17

it is one of the 50 accounts that I have. But I think, I
mean, f guess -- what do you mean by monitoned? The situation in

18

Uknaine

16

19

20
27
22
23

24
25

You know,

?

a The situation, yeah.
A I mean, as we moniton a situation anywhene -a The situation that led to the end of Ambassadon Yovanovitch's
tenune thene?

-- you know, one of my concerns has
always been fon the mission and its pensonnel who wene, I think it is
fain to say, shaken by all of this, the Ambassador's abnupt eanly
A

We needed

to

make sune

UNCLASS I

FIED

 UNCLASS

58

I FIED

1

depantune. And Bill was -- and fnom the beginning, fnom the time

2

landed, he was well-known

3

to Uknainians,

4

to that.

5

And,

and

still to the embassy, to the local staff,

that helped.

of course,

we wene

And so he

centainly bnought stability

launching into a whole new ena with the

the election, having

6

new Pnesident, Zelensky having won

7

inaugurated on the 20th of May. And at that point,

8

awane,

9

that for the inaugunation the White

centainly

it's

been

of

he

in the open media based

been

I think you're all
on testimony hene,

House had delegated Secnetary

to lead the delegation that included

10

Penny, the Secnetany

1L

Kunt Volken, Ambassadon Volken the Special Repnesentative fon Uknaine,

72

and Ambassador Gondon Sondland, the Ambassadon

Enengy,

to the EU.

15

I think Mn. Vindman, fnom the
National Secunity Council, who went, and I believe Senaton Johnson was
also thene, in a slightly diffenent capacity as a legislative

15

nepnesentative.

13

L4

L7

And thene was anothen penson,

And they wene

neally then pegged as the leads on Ukraine,

18

obviously, with

t9

with the gneat, kind of, institutional

20

about the post,

2L

Caucasus.

22

And

it

Geonge Kent nemaining as

was

in his capacity

the Deputy Assistant Secnetany
knowledge about

the countny,

covening Eastenn Eunope and the

aften that inaugunation

when

that

team came back and

I believe, on the 23rd of May, and

23

they met with the Pnesident,

24

Ambassadon Volken pnovided me a neadout

25

the path fonward in tenms of implementing oun strategy and policy with
UNCLASS

of that which kind of laid out

I FIED

 59

I FIED

UNCLASS

L

Uknaine.

5

a What was your experience with Ambassadon Volker?
A I had known Kunt Volken almost my entire caneen. Again, we
wene -- we became ambassadons about the same time, he, to NATO, when
I went to what is now Nonth Macedonia, and we have been fniends and

6

colleagues.

2
3

4

And he had been

7

in,

useful

as

I

came back

to Washington, dealing

staff, I talked to him a couple

8

with, you know, 50 countnies

9

of times about Uknaine and whene he saw the dinection, you know, how

and 72,000

the stnategy, the nole he was playing both in tenms

10

he was lmplementing

11

of the negotiations part, to tny to help bring

72

well as ideas in tenms of things like antitnust, moving fonwand

13

continuing oun push against connuption.
He

t4

is a pno. I

mean,

I

was veny

it, he's got the lead on this.

got

16

veny useful messaging and communication.

18

of the Russians, which was gneat.
about his statements.
And he was,

19

20

and

27

of

22

He was doing

on

He was

a

lot of, I think,

getting

unden

the skin

They were complaining negulanly

of counse, tnying to

they, the Russians, had not

to the wan, as

confident that, you know, he's

15

L7

an end

meet

agneed

with a Russian countenpant,

to a meeting since

Januany

2QL8.
So

I

had, you know, fnom

my

penspective ovenseeing and shephending

24

all of these pieces, the mission was falling into a good place with
Bill at the helm, the new DCM getting up to speed veny quickly. So

25

on the gnound, the embassy and U.S. Mission Uknaine was

23

UNCLASS

I FIED

well taken care

 UNCLASS

policy

50

IF]ED

I

L

of,

2

think they

3

Sondland and Volken

4

had been veny c1ean,

5

And

5

also dinect contact with Ambassadon Sondland. So that's whene things

7

wene being handled.

8
9

and

I

the

have been nefenned

to

management was

as the Thnee

-- and Ambassadon
I

know he had

that the Secnetany

know

a

engagement and

being handled by,

Amigos. But Ambassadons

Sond1and, whom I knew,

of

counse,

the dinect access to the Pnesident.

had gneat

What was youn undenstanding

faith in Ambassadon Volken

of

what Ambassadon Volken

and

was

doing with negard to the new incoming administnation? Was he tnying

13

to build nelationships?
A Yeah, he -- I mean, Iet me tunn to a panticulan page which
is veny helpful on this. Give me a second hene.
a And just while you'ne looking for it, he's a penson of high

L4

integnity and gneat expenience with negand to Uknaine, connect?

10
7L
L2

15

A Absolutely,

yeah.

77

a And evenything that he did duning the course of these events
wene in the best intenest of the United States to the best of youn

18

knowledge

16

19

20
2L
22

A

?

Yeah,

I

guess

I'd

have

-- I don't -- I don't know evenything

he did.

a
A

To

the best of youn knowledge.

So

to the best of my knowledge, I

know Kunt

to be, you know,

fine diplomat. I would say my view --

23

an outstanding Amenican, a

24

neally wanted to see Ukraine succeed

25

succeed.

and

to

UNCLASSI FIED

see our

policy

he

and stnategy

 61.

I FIED

UNCLASS

I

3

in, my mandate was continuity.
You know, Wess Mitchell had helped put in place a set of policies in
line with the national. secunity stnategy, a set of individual

4

strategies fon the eastenn

5

the Balkans, and for Uknaine. And, of course, Kunt had been bnought

6

on as a Special Repnesentative as pant

1

2

And, you know,

With

7

of

all of this

had been bnought

Med and

chunn oven Masha,

counse, fnom, you know,

8

Masha,

9

Depantment and since

the Black Sea, fon the Anctic, fon

then.

of that.

And he had a

vision.

I think he felt badIy.

He knew

-- his caneen at the State

his long

And he was, you know, veny dedicated to

t2

this. And aften the bniefing with the Pnesident that they had, I
was pull this out I was, I believe, tnaveling at that time.
Once again, as I've mentioned, my mandate is to spend about

13

50 pencent

L4

countnies, oun missions, the leadenship, bilatenal and multilatenal,

15

the confenences, nepnesenting

16

Secretary, sometimes nepnesenting the Secnetany at ministenial

L7

meetings and othen such things.

10
11

of the time on the

So, in

18

fact,

on

noad

the

that peniod I

first

tnying to

engage

sometimes

was back

tnaveling with the

-- we wene having a chief
to bning all of the chiefs

19

of missions confenence,

20

of mission from within the Eunopean Buneau togethen,

27

EUCOM

22

that Kunt had fonwarded in

my

in Stuttgart. But I

had

oppontunity

waiting fon

with oun 50

me an

cosponsored by

email, unclassified,

24

of the neadout of the Uknaine
delegation White House meeting, and it laid out the sont of key
takeaways and what we wene going to pnoceed with, focusing on the

25

President signing a congratulatony letten

23

tenms

UNCLASS

I FIED

to

Zelensky, inviting

 62

UNCLASS I E]ED

to the

Oval

Office.

goal had been

L

Zelensky

2

before the July panliamentary elections
The

3

Oun

delegation, that is what

to

to have that

happen

show support.

Ambassadon Sondland refenned

to

as

4

the Thnee Amigos, will wonk with the Uknainian Govennment and contacts

5

to

6

poon investment

7

ensune

8

and impnoving U.S.-Uknaine bilatenal relations.

push

fon neform and flag the Pnesident's concenn about connuption,

at this point, they

10

of counse, which

t7

had been taken

L2

would be

was

had

-- this

was nelevant

to

my

nefonm

other task,

the finding a long-tenm Ambassadon. The decision

that thene would be a political, a noncaneen Ambassadon

identified

ASAP.

Secnetary Penny, as pant

13

economy, and

that Zelensky comes prepaned to demonstnate commitment to

And

9

climate, oliganchic contnol oven the

of the delegation,

would focus

L4

offices to help Uknaine find solutions to thein energy

15

which was a neal

his

good

and gas needs,

16

issue. I mean, alneady in May we wene anticipating
if the Russians turn off the gas, they need to be stockpiling now so

L7

that they could get thnough a winten,

18

which Kunt took the lead on.
So he had

19

20

They had

27

And

22
23

24
25

and media messaging

neally laid out what they

wene

doing, the way fonwand.

the suppont and confidence of the President

that's

discipline,

and

the Secnetary.

how we headed fonwand.

a When did the Rudy Giuliani involvement become known to you?
A In tenms of -- in tenms of what? I mean -a Mn. Giuliani was -- developed a nontraditional nole hene,
and I wonden when that finst became -- you first became awane of it,
UNCLASS

I FIED

 63

UNCLASS

t

T

FIED

A, and, B, did you even see that nontnaditional nole as pnoblematic.

2

A

3

engaged

4

annived in Manch,

5

some

6

and

He was

centainly

in Uknaine.

named and

Going back

I think

in the pness himself as being

to those eanliest

days when

I first

fnequently on television and pnomoting

he was

of these -- these allegations

and nannatives about oun Ambassadon

the Embassy.

10

I think that was pnobably when I finst was aware that he was
involved. I know oun pness Iine, our nesponse fnom the Department when
I got thene, so what do we say about Giuliani, was that, you know, he
is not a govennment employee, we nefen you to Mr. Giuliani's office

11

fon

7
8
9

So

a

L2
13

comment

on him.

to

Did you even come

communications

L4

A

15

telephone, on

16

was

with Giuliani?

Kunt mentioned

to --

leann that Volken was having

maybe meet

at

some

with

point that he was going

to, I think,

Giuliani. I think his goal veny much

you had this harsh

18

cnitic of Uknaine, and his goal was to
help explain oun stnategy, oun pnocess, and the fact that Zelensky
nepnesented a whole new chapter in Uknaine and new oppontunities to

19

implement U.S. stnategy and

L7

20
2L
22
23

24
25

policy in

Uknaine.

of that convensation. I
Mn. Giuliani on spoken to him.

I

a

wasn't a pant

had neven met

Did you even leann fnom Ambassadon Taylon

concenns about

Giuliani's

that he had

nole?

-- I think in a little of oun WhatsApping -- is
that a venb? -- WhatsApp -- because when -- befone Bill finally went
A I

do neca1l

UNCLASS

I EIED

 UNCLASS ]

7

out, you know,

2

wene going thnough

3

Henculean

4

out how --

5

ultimately

we had

identified him, as I've alneady descnibed.

just,

We

you know, from a bureaucnatic standpoint,

effonts with the personnel people and the lawyens in figuning
how we

all

Bill

could send

out as the Charge d'Affaines. That

wonked.

But he was -- he had expnessed

5

64

FIED

some concenns about

that stuff.

7

I will just take a minute hene to tny to find if I

8

nefenence. lust that, you know, this was such a distnaction.

can

find a specific

11

in an exchange with Bill Taylon on the 26th of Manch -- I'm
sonny, l(ay,5-26-19, this is before we have met with Secnetary Pompeo
and which then neassuned BiIl. He said to me: "I'm still struggling

T2

with the decision whethen to

13

hene

t4

era around Uknaine.

9

10

So

wilI let

me

Genenally,

15

16

media,

this is

77

it

like,

18
19

20

on anyone

I

go. Basically,

mean, when you

back

said Uknaine in the public on the

what people focused

on.

When

you said Ukraine

to

me,

this countny with
enonmous potential that is being, you know, at wan. Thene's just all
kinds of implications.
was

we have

That was what,

got an

embassy, we have

I think, BiIl

was wornied

22

yean. I'm not sune Sr " the Secnetany,

23

issue. "

"The

got

about, and he said, again

Giuliani Biden issue will like1y persist fon the next

I quote:

25

politics

succeed." Referning to this veny political

21

24

whethen the

"can give me neassunance on

this

I said: 0h, I'11 tny to
offer mone nesponse laten. And at one point then Bill said: While
And then

I

was

at

my

cousin's wedding.

UNCLASS

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 65

UNCLASS]EIED

1

you think about

2

Kunt.

He would be

And

3

this, let

me make

penfect.

I just said:

suggestion.

anothen

Knows

the issues betten than

WeIl, Kunt has said no befone.

to

5

Pnesident, along with the nest of the delegation, and

6

optimistic.

8
9

be Change on Ambassadon. And noted

didn't want
the

fainly

come away

I just descnibed to you is about that.
And BiIl said: We should definitely talk to him.
And I said: Kunt will be joining us fon the meeting with the
What

Secnetany on Tuesday.

BiIl said:

Perfect.

10

And

11

And then thene was anothen

t2

confusion that

13

take the

L4

He

anyone.

that he had met with

4

7

You could send

job.

little

snag whene thene was

Bill got the impnession that
We

some

Kunt neally did want to

clanified that.

Kunt said, hor he did not want

to

be Ambassadon, he wanted

Bill made veny clean at that time that

15

as Special Repnesentative. And

16

the Secretany

17

the Pnesident on netunn fnom the inauguration.

needed

to

to stay

hean Kunt's descniption

UNCLASS

I EIED

of the debnief with

 UNCLASS

L

lL:@@ p.m.

55

I E]ED

l

AMBASSADOR

3

hesitant about going.

Then we had

that he said, I can't go,

he

was

the meeting with the Secnetany,

and

REEKER: Based on

2

6

Bill came away confident then that he would do it and at the same time,
right about the same time on the 30th of May, I neponted to Bill -- I
was on the way to Benlin this time -- that the Legal Advisor's Office

7

had found a way fon you

8

as youn Deputy Chief of Mission. And Bill said

9

with him while I

4
5

to

was on

go

out as the

Change

d'Affaines with Chnistina

-- I

checked back in

that tnip, and I just said, Checking in, is

10

evenything in onden fon youn adventune,

11

A11 on

I called it.

Bill Taylor said,

tnack, thank you.

t4

in fact I was on the way to Bnussels that night, the 4th of
June, and I noted to Bi1l, I expected to meet Pnesident Zelensky at
a dinnen that Ambassadon Sondland was hosting, and so that was the first

15

time I met Pnesident Zelensky.

L2
13

And

BY MR. CASTOR:

15

20

a You wene at that -- I believe the dinnen'was around lune 4th?
A lune 4th, connect.
a Let me just, as we tny to sketch out oun day of questions
hene, it might be helpful to just take stock of centain aneas that you

2t

may

t7
18
19

or

may

not have finsthand infonmation about.

22

A Uh-huh.

23

a
that

Sune.

Finsthand infonmation can take two

forms. It

can take the

you may have been copied on an email which you may have nead,

24

fonm

25

on you may not have because you extnaondinarily have a vast
UNCLASSI FIED

pontfolio;

 67

UNCLASS

1

2
3

is finsthand infonmation that you had actual
convensations and so fonth. And so let me just sont of run thnough
some things if I may.

and then thene

Did you have any firsthand infonmation about the delay

4

and

6

September 11th.

8
9

in

funds

the PCC pnocess? It stanted on luly 18th, and ended anound

5

7

I FIED

-- to answen youn question, Y€s, I had
finsthand infonmation on that. My staff notified me. We have a, in
fact, he is a Congnessionally mandated position, oun assistance
A Connect. I

became

72

like an eighth
DAS in the Buneau, and he neponted that thene wene holds on a lot of
assistance. This was in JuIy. And eveny day, thene was sort of an

13

update, and thene was this hold on the militany assistance fon Uknaine,

t4

and thene was sont

15

fnom? Is that

10
11

coordinaton who neports dinectly to

alI

kinds of

stuff. I

eagen

to get moving on some projects in

18

awane

of that.

It

20
21
22

coming

genenal?

t7

19

as well almost

of a puzzlement as to, you know, whene is that

Thene wene holds on

16

me

And

the decision

know

Anmenia,

they wene neally

et cetera,

so

I

was

was how do we handle this?

wasn't clean whene that was coming fnom as we pushed this into

is the best way to come to a decision, and if
somebody is blocking this, they need to sont of show thein hand.
a So maybe we can go through that at some point today.

the

PCC

pnocess, which

How

23

about communications with National Secunity Council

24

officials?

25

with

some

Like did you have any phone calls on in-penson intenactions

of the National Secunity Council officials
UNCLASS I

F]ED

on these issues?

 UNCLASS

t
2
3

4
5
6
7
8

1

68

FIED

I can give you names on -A Why don't you tny to, and I will teII you.
a Stanting with Ambassador Bolton?
A No. I had no direct contact with Ambassadon Bolton.
a And his deputy, Mr. Kuppenman?
A I have met Kuppenman, but not in capacity - - not in
connection with Uknaine, I don't believe.
a
A

Then

Dr. Fiona HiIl?

10

I dealt with from the time annived, I
going back yeans. Again, I didn't have a lot dinect

LT

Uknaine because

9

Fiona,

have known hen

discussion

that was handled by Geonge and the Uknaine team,

on

and,

13

of counse, the delegation as we would call it, Sondland and Volken.
a So maybe, we will go back and tny to unpack the communications

L4

you had with Dn. HiII.

L2

15

How about Tim Monnison?

16

A

Yeah, and he succeeded

hen. Again, I don't

know

that

we have

18

I tended to have Geonge fnom
the State point take the lead on all of that, and I believe Tim was

19

in contact with the team, the delegation, Kunt,

20

Secnetany Penny too.

t7

talked a lot specifically about Ukraine.

2L

a

22

Uknaine

23

24
25

And then thene was

SondIand, and perhaps

a Lieutenant Colonel Vindman who had the

portfolio in the National Secunity Council?
A I don't believe -- I know him, I know we have met, but I didn't

have convensations

with him.

a
UNCLASS

I EIED

 69

UNCLASS I EIED

1

A

2

a

Not

to my necollection

no.

4

it is possible, I
did attend a PCC meeting, not the one on the assistance pnocess, it

5

was anothen PCC

6

those people may have been thene, thene was a huge intenagency gnoup,

7

and

3

A It nealIy doesn't

that

was on

that

and

that cou1d, I

was about othen issues

mean

in Uknaine.

And some was

the 31st of JuIy.

10

a Okay.
A I couldn't teII you who all the people were thene.
a Going back to the PCC pnocess, it is oun understanding

11

was, began on JuIy 18th, and thene were meetings the 23rd, the 26th,

L2

and

8
9

thene

then, possibly, the 31st as well?

A

13

That was,

it

was a PCC about Ukraine,

but

it

was not focused

22

of assistance came up because I
specifically nemembened, since she was sitting next to me, Launa Coopen
fnom OSD did naise -- she said, I need to naise this because we wene
still wondening, yoU know, when is this, you ane watching, first of
all, it is vitally impontant to the Uknainians; this is a key component
of oun policy, and second of all, you ane watching the fiscal yean
calendan ticking away as you head towand August, which tends to be a
somewhat of a down month.
So it came up, one piece on that, but thene was still no

23

nesolution, and I

24

been

25

this, the deputy

L4
15
16
77
18
19

20

2t

on the assistance. The question

know we wene hoping

the, on the 26th I believe,

that thene would be a, thene had

and you may have had nefenenced

that,

smaIl gnoup, which Under Secnetany Hale had attended.
UNCLASS I

FIED

 UNCLASS

70

I FIED

4

traveling. And I understand
he had gone, and thene was still no nesolution of this, and thene was
anticipated to be a pnincipals sma11 gnoup. But getting Secnetany
Pompeo and the Secnetany of Defense togethen just wasn't happening

5

until --

L

2
3

I

wouldn't go to that anyway, but

and then

the

lift

The understanding was

6

I

was

was, the hold was, seemed

undenstanding, on oun openating undenstanding was that

8

held by Mn. Mu1vaney, the White House Acting Chief

a

10
11

t2
13

t4

PCC-nelated meetings, you

this

was being

of Staff.

participated in

one,

is that
A Yes. I was at the one on the 31st of Ju1y.
a And did you even have any communications with Acting Chief
of Staff Mulvaney?
A No. I have neven met him, to my knowledge.

a Okay. Any communications with the Pnesident?
A No. I have neven met the Pnesident.
a And then Ambassadon Sondland, what is youn expenience with

15
16
L7

18

of those

So

be gone.

that, without definitive knowledge, but my

7

9

to

him

?

A

19

So

I

of

got to

know Gondon Sondland when

jobs there, of counse, was to

I

was

stiI1 at EUCOM,

engage oun missions,

20

because one

2t

oun

posts, oun ambassadons thnoughout the AOR, anea of nesponsibility,

22

and

that included the EU.

23

things,

24

on

25

the European defense fund, and some othen aspects, and he was very

my

We were

neaIly trying to punsue a

and have oun EU mission be more nobust

things like militany mobility, the

UNCLASS

in

tenms

Eunopean defense

] FIED

of

lot of

engagement

initiative,

and

 7L

UNCLASS]FIED

1

of that.

welcoming

I

He was eagen

to do that.

I

So

I

met him at

5

to Bnussels, and knew
him a bit, and then, I think, f mentioned the tnip I took to Odessa
in Febnuany of this year. I alneady knew, I had alneady been nevectoned
to come back to take this job, but I was still technically at EUCOM

6

and we wene going

7

we wene

8

ship

9

the Russians took

2
3

4

gathenings.

paid a caII on him when

tnying to

visit

to

do

the ship

show U.S./EU

visit.

went

And Gondon

joined

me because

solidanity fon Ukraine. This

was the

langely done in nesponse to the Kench Stnait incident
some sma]1

when

Uknainian cnaft in the Kench Stnait going

10

into the Azov Sea illega1ly, I might add, and took hostages essentially,

11

25 Uknainian sailors.

t2
13
L4

visiting, and Gondon had annanged to bring
senion EU officials along. I met him in Bnussels, and then we flew
togethen to Odessa.
So a U.S. ship was

a

15

16

Did you even have any discussions with Ambassadon Sondland

about the aid on the White House visit?

A

The White House

his,

he had the

t7

visit, yes. I mean he was cleanly pant, this

political lead as he told the Ukrainians

as

18

was,

19

talked about negularly, he had convensations with the Pnesident, with

20

Ambassadon

2t

I talked to you about the readout I got fnom the meeting aften

the

22

inaugunation on the May 23nd meetings, so we talked about that

way

23

fonwand, what he was wonklng on, and the, you know, getting a White

24

House

25

we

Bolton, with Mr. Mu1vaney, as fan as he told me. Again,

visit fon Zelensky and he was detenmined to get that done.
a The Ambassadon Sondland has, he gave a TV intenview, on he
UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS

7

72

I FIED

that he has a rathen lange nemit fnom the Pnesident?
A Yes. I have heand that phnase.
a Was it youn undenstanding that was, in fact, the case?

descnibed

2
3

A
a
A

4
5

6

YeS.

Okay.

that he had the nemit. I'm not

That was my undenstanding

7

exactly sune what that means, but centainly had the nemit, the access,

8

was veny much

10

in the lead.
a And that he also had the suppont of the Secnetary to get
involved with some issues that may not tnaditionally be pant of the

11

EU

9

portfolio?

t7

I think, when
I asked Unden Secnetary Hale about this, he said it is inregulan,
irregulan is the wond.
a Did you have any concenns about that?
A Well, it was inregulan, but I knew Gondon, and I understood
that he was given this task, and that is what you wonk with when the

18

Secnetary and the Pnesident have a team

19

that was whene the focus was.

t2
13

L4
15
16

20
2L
22

A

25

to

undentake

activities that

would not,

of Volker, Sondland,

Perny,

a I like to make sune oun Members don't have questions as we
appnoach the end of the houn. It is a veny wise staff thing to do.
MR. MEADOWS: Go ahead.
BY MR. CASTOR:

23

24

Yes,

a
A

We ane
How

just

coming up on

the end of the hour.

quickly time flies.
UNCLASS I

FIED

 73

UNCLASS

I F]ED

While you'ne having fun.

1

a

2

Did you even have any discussions with Unden Secretary Hale about

3

anything

mone

A

4

gven

than what you
time,

just offened about the innegulan --

yoU know,

I

would comment occasionally

that, wel1,

is doing X or Y, which would not necessanily be, as I said,

5

Gondon

6

regulan nemit of the Ambassador to the EU, but stanting in June,

7

I

neponted on having been, Gondon had

invited

me and

it

I

the

know

wonked out

10

I was with the Secnetany at the GIobaI Entnepneneurship Summit
in The Hague, and so, I went down to Bnusse1s, I think that is, I'm
giving you the sequence night. Anyway, I was thene fon the June 4th

1L

dinnen he had fon his national day celebnations, and then

this

L2

with Pnesident Zelensky, as well the pnime ministens of

Jordan,

13

Rumania, and

74

a

8
9

because

the Pnesident of

Poland.

Did Ambassadon Taylor on DAS Kent even communicate with you

15

about Sondland's nole and whethen

16

they

Yes,

it

was

inregulan. It

a negulan topic

18

It

19

the mandated annangement

20

contact

27

a

At any point, did

A

You know,

22

was

this

23

24
25

it is innegulan on not? 0n the issues

had?

A

17

dinnen

I think,

was, then

was.

it

of, weII, Gondon handles this.

became nonmal, because

He and Ambassador

that's

what

Volker wene in negulan

coondinating.
Ambassadon Taylon develop a

neal issue with

?

I

was

looking back at, say, the WhatsApp, And once

lot of contact with him. A few
times he mailed and said, When ane you going to visit? And I was just
BiIl

was

out at post,

I didn't

have a

UNCLASS I

FIED

 UNCLASS I

74

FIED

to get into the calendan.

waiting to get thnough

L

neven able

2

the elections, the

3

neaIIy was dealing directly with, as far as

4

they would nefen to that and, of counse, Geonge Kent was my point penson

5

on

6

negulan intenaction with

that.
a

7

He was

posted

9

also been

made

elections and othen things. But

I

Bill

Taylor,

I think, quite

Taylor.

some

of the text

news accounts, and

messages

that

have been

his opening statement, which has

pant of the media accounts

10

A

\L

a

L2

Did you see any of those news stories?

13

A I've

L4

a

15

he

knew, Kunt and Sondland,

kind of keeping tnack and having,

Ambassadon

at vanious

8

govennment

We wene

Uh-huh.

he cleanly

the

seen

talks about his fnustnations.
news

stories since his testimony.

Were you awane, contemponaneously,

to the point whene

that

he was having issues

he had even raised the pnospect

of

nesigning?

18

A I don't believe I was, I knew thene was sometimes
fnustnations, but I was not -- again, I wasn't doing this sont of
day-to-day intenaction with him on with the posts, so it was kind of

19

him working

16
L7

with --

So

if

He

did not

2t

a
A

22

anothen point

23

negulan contact every week on two with Counselon Bnechbuhl.

20

a

24
25

to

he was seeking suppont fnom Washington
go thnough

me.

He was

-- I also knew, which was

of, okay, that's being handled, he was, I think, in fainly

Did Geonge Kent even

flag this for

be solved on wonked thnough?
UNCLASSI FIED

you as an issue

that

needed

 75

UNCLASS I

just sont of bning up the latest,

1

A

2

was happening

3

that

4

was

5

you know, we had the leadenship

6

and a way fonward, a team

7

and the Secretany

8

to do.

9

the fore, and, you know, "Is

10

He would

in Ukraine,

depending on what

I mean, things like the White House meeting,

became

almost any news on the White House meeting, you know, I

looking

at, in tenms of the Uknaine account and my focus on it,

And

that

in place at the mission,

was

with the

of State wonking

And one was

come up and

11

FIED

still

on

this,

the Zelensky White

it

full

we had a

policy

support of the President

and thene wene a few things

House meeting was veny much

in

scheduled? Is thene any news?" would

no news.

that sont of pnoceeded thnoughout the summen until, of counse,

to

L2

thene was the expectation when the Pnesident was going

13

the 1st of Septemben, that thene would be a bilatenal meeting in Po1and.

L4

Of counse, the Pnesident canceled because of the hurnicane.

Poland on

L7

a But fon these issues, YoU wene langely in the backgnound?
A Yeah. My task, all of these 50 countnies and the tnavel and
the engagement, is to make sure things ane being handled. So I have

18

seven, potentially eight deputies, and 50 missions, and making

19

people ane plugged

20

of

15
16

what

is

in

so

the seventh floon Hale and Bnechbuhl ane awane

going on.

I think

2L

MR. CASTOR:

22

THE CHAIRMAN: Why

23

we

will

sune

my

don't

time
we

is up, Mn. Chainman.

take a 5- on L0-minute bneak and then

nesume.

24

I Recess . ]

25

THE CHAIRMAN: Ambassadon,

I

have a few questions

UNCLASS ]

FIED

I

want

to

go

 UNCLASS

1

thnough befone

I

hand

You used a phnase

2

it

back

betten wond than "recaLL" of

4

Uknaine

REEKER: Mn. Chainman,

AMBASSADOR

trying to be pedantic here.

7

THE CHAIRMAN: She was

AMBASSADOR

L4

THE

15

AMBASSADOR

18

to come back to Washington

those consultations, she was told:

--

but the White House has lost confidence in you?

REEKER: Connect.

that's told the Pnesident's lost
confidence in them is pnetty much being told youn senvice is no longen
nequined at youn post. Is that fain?
AMBASSADOR

technically

2L

wene

22

her tour.

25

was

REEKER: CoNNCCI.

CHAIRMAN:

20

24

that

THE CHAIRMAN: An Ambassador

19

23

to get on the next

You've done nothing wnong -AMBASSADOR

t7

REEKER: Yes, but

THE CHAIRMAN: And duning

13

16

by Secretany Penez

not

fon consultation.

7T

12

told

I don't want to -- I'm

plane.

9

10

Yovanovitch's tenune in

Ambassadon

?

6

8

oun counsel.

in connection with the -- is "cuntailment" the

3

5

to

76

I EIED

is a fain chanactenization that
a choice of exactly what date, I mean, thene

REEKER: That

she was given

6 weeks left until she was already scheduled to depant and finish

is only part of the stony night,
Ambassadon, because wasn't she asked if she would be willing to, in
fact, extend her toun befone all this happened?
THE CHAIRMAN:

But that

UNCLASS

I FIED

 77

UNCLASS I

AMBASSADOR

1

REEKER:

I

FIED

do undenstand

that

Unden Secnetany Hale had

2

discussed whether she was willing and able to do that when the change

3

in the pnocess of identifying

4

the neassignment of that penson, of myself.

5

that in

8
9

I noted, we do do

But hene h,e're talking about going fnom a

situation in which she is

asked whethen she can stay fon a much longen

of time to being told to get on the next plane, come back to
Washington and is infonmed that the Pnesident has lost confidence in
peniod

10

hen and then she ends up leaving

11

date in Ju1y.

L2

Is that a fain

13

AMBASSADOR

L4

THE CHAIRMAN: Now,

15

And as

cases, the existing Ambassadon does stay on.

THE CHAIRIvIAN:

6
7

some

hen successon was derailed because of

is

somewhat

of

that post pnior to

even hen desined

summany?

REEKER: CONNCCt. YCS.

a tenm

the tenm the Pnesident has lost confidence

of ant. That can mean a lot of things, is

not?

19

I wouldn't, I don't know that I could
speculate. It is a tenm that we use. You see it in govennment, I
guess, on in othen situations. Centainly fon an Ambassadon, yes, that
is, or it happens also within the embassy, we have had r know many cases

20

whene

2t

and

22

assignment.

L6
L7
18

23

AMBASSADOR

REEKER: Yeah,

the Ambassadon has lost confidence in somebody in his on her team

that person is sent
THE CHAIRII4AN:

home,

finds a new position, cuntails the

But in this case, whene the

Ambassadon

is told

24

you've done nothing wnong, these allegations against you

25

essentially menitless. 0n what basis can you say the Pnesident lost
UNCLASS I

FIED

ane

 UNCLASS

in the Ambassador when the Ambassadon

1

confidence

2

she was supposed

has done evenything

to do?
It seems like it is not quite the night descniption fon what

3

4

78

IFIED

happened hene.

7

I did not use that tenm. The tenm was what
the Deputy Secnetany used in speaking with Masha.
THE CHAIRMAN: WeIl, do you know if that is neally not the best

8

descniption of what happened here?

5

6

What was

9
10

REEKER:

AMBASSADOR

Ambassadon

to

the neason the Pnesident no longen wanted

REEKER:

AMBASSADOR

t2

THE CHAIRMAN: And

I

be U.S.

do not know, sin.

thene was an

13

top level of the State

t4

suppont fon Ambassadon Yovanovitch;

effont to get a statement at the

Depantment fnom

the seventh floon

the

Did you find out why the answer was

16

AMBASSADOR

I

REEKER: What

expnessing

answen was no.

15

no?

got was the

Unden Secnetany had said

to putting out a statement, and that we would stick with the cleaned

77

no

18

agneed nesponse

that

THE CHAIRMAN:

we had used

WeIl, no,

20

that no, she would not

2t

of the State Depantment.
question

22

My

23

AMBASSADOR

24

THE

25

to

Uknaine?

11

19

hen

you wene

is

I

be given

that I descnibed eanlien.

undenstand

that the decision

that statement of support

was made

fnom

the top

why?

REEKER:

I dON't KNOW.

CHAIRMAN: So you wene neven given an explanation even though

in the chain of

command

nesponsible fon Uknaine among 49 othen

UNCLASS

IFIED

 79

UNCLASSIFIED

1

countnies

?

AMBASSADOR

2
3

genmane,

4

case

in

REEKER:

know

panticulanly to the decision of

nesponse

to the

THE CHAIRMAN:

5

I don't

pness and these

that the -- that that
how

to handle this panticulan

allegations. I

you wene never given an explanation fon why the seventh

nesponsibility,

7

floon nefused to issue a statement of suppont fon their

8

Ambassadon, and Ambassadon

9

wrong?
AMBASSADoR

had unged

I'm asking You, though, given youn

5

10

was

to

own embattled

which they believed had done nothing

REEKER: The guidance

that

we wene

given, the response

L2

to the pness was whene I was told they felt comfontable going.
THE CHAIRMAN: I think you nefenenced an email on a text message

13

in which the Ambassadon

L4

fon the Pnesldent, did I understand that connectly?

1.1

AMBASSADOR

15

wene

REEKER:

told that

she should expness

I can, give me a moment, Mr. Chainman, I'11

t7

find fon you that panticulan email.
Yes, what I quoted, I believe earlien,

18

Secnetany

19

I tnied to

15

Hale. I

public suppont

had fonwanded on

send updates because

was an email from Unden

the 23rd of March, as I mentioned,

that is what I

was asked

to do about

23

alI of this negative, this -- these nannatives. And so that monning,
on that, it was aftennoon acconding to this, although I said, good
monning, I'm not sune why it shows 5 o'clock p.m.
But I say, good monning, Iooping you in on the latest I neceived

24

this

25

stating and claiming and this

20

2t
22

monning

--

and

this

was neganding what diGenova/Ingnaham
was

UNCLASS

also

ane

whene thene was nefenence

I EIED

to

 80

UNCLASSI FIED

7

Twitten-based thneats against Masha, which had

2

and

3

RSO.

4

communications people, but

5

saying anything disnespectful and reaffinm hen

6

and

that

And

FSO

the nesponse fnom

to

I believe Masha should deny on the necond

that

12

Pnesident and oun Constitution?
AMBASSADOR

15

email

Hale

is

she make a public expnession

Ambassadon

t4

REEKER:

I

have read

necommending

of

THE CHAIRIvIAN: Wene

you awane

with others about telling the

big and issue a statement of suppont fon the
AMBASSADOR

Ambassadon

Ambassadon

to

go

Pnesident?

REEKER: Ambassadon Sondland?

No. I'm not awane of

that at this time.

20

I'm not awane of that in genenal.

2L

THE CHAIRIvIAN: Have you even seen

22

Ambassadon was asked

23

Pnesident

25

for the U.S.

suppont

of any convensation that

17

24

to a U.S.

and

Sondland may have had

19

Unden

to you, sin, the quote fnom the

16

18

as an Ambassadon

REEKER: Unden Secnetany Hale.

11

13

loyalty

Ulnich Bnechbuhl, I'fi sonry this was

THE CHAIRMAN: Unden Secnetany

10

defer to oun coms,

--

AMBASSADOR

9

Unden Secnetany Hale was,

and Constitution.

POTUS

Secnetany Hale

extnemely concerned,

that infonmation to diplomatic secunity in the

THE CHAIRMAN: So

7
8

we had passed

me

a cincumstance

whene

U.S.

to give a personal expression of suppont fon the

of the United States on the Constitution?

AMBASSADOR

a

REEKER:

Well,

we

aI1

swean an

Constitution to pnotect and defend -UNCLASS

I FIED

oath to the

 81

UNCLASS I E]ED

THE CHAIRMAN:

7

2

when

they are

swonn

That

is not my question.

Everybody takes an oath

in.

REEKER: Right.

3

AMBASSADOR

4

THE CHAIRMAN:

But my question

is

have you even seen

false attack, is

5

cincumstance whene a U.S. Ambassadon, unden

6

defend themselves by making a public expnession

7

Pnesident on the Constitution?

9

REEKER:

AMBASSADOR

8

I

cannot

THE

L2

Mulvaney,

Ambassadon Sondland had

REEKER: He

told

ability.

He would be

in

me

such, and

I

know,

15

White House, and then with the Pnesident. Yes.

You

meetings at the

I think you said that, essentially, he,
although it was not pant of his EU chanten, he was given a commission
of sonts, a remit of sonts, along with Ambassadon Volken and Secnetany
Penny, to be the lead on Ukraine in this pivotal peniod?
REEKER:

AMBASSADOR

2L

THE CHAIRMAN:

CONTCCt.

Did you even have a chance to nead Ambassadon

Taylon's wnitten testimony?
AMBASSADOR

23

25

to

of his,

THE CHAIRMAN: And

20

24

was aware

Washington and go

L4

22

dinect

is that right?

AMBASSADOR

13

19

the

to the President and negulan communications with Chief of Staff

access

18

of support fon

thlnk of anothen instance of that.
that

CHAIRMAN: You mentioned

11

L7

asked to

No, sin. I can't say it hasn't happened, but

10

L6

a

thing

REEKER: Yes,

sir, I did. I definitely

nead the whole

once.
THE

CHAIRMAN: He makes a numben
UNCLASS

of veny distunbing -- ovensights

I F]ED

 UNCLASS I

82

FIED

1

a numben of distunbing facts involving an effont to coence Uknaine to

2

do two

3

Pnesident's reelection campaign by withholding a despenately sought

4

White House meeting between the two Pnesidents and militany aid.

political investigations that would be helpful to

REEKER: Uh-huh.

5

AMBASSADOR

6

THE CHAIRMAN:

7

8
9
10
11
L2
13

t4
15

I take it

you would

think that

conrect, that coencing an aIly to engage in

to help a Pnesident's neelection
to do.
AMBASSADOR

the

REEKER: Can you

campaign

if

those facts ane

political investigations

is a tennibly wnong thing

just nepeat? I

want

to

make sune

I

get the exact context of the question.
MR. PERRY:

campaign.

I

question the pnemise of the question, reelection

It is never stated and it is all hypothetical,

THE CHAIRMAN:

I'm making refenence to

Mn. Chainman.

Ambassadon

Taylor's

testimony.

18

this way, Ambassadon: Would you agnee that
pnessuning an ally to conduct political investigations that would be
useful to a Pnesident's neelection campaign by withholding a White

19

House meeting on

20

AMBASSADOR

21.

I

16
17

22

But 1et

me ask you

withholding militany aid would be wnong?
REEKER: May

was going

to

answen,

I

have

I

second?

I necaIl this

fnom my day,

it reaIly is

a hypothetical question.

24

It is actually not hypothetical at aI1. But can
you agnee, as a decades-long State Depantment official, that it would

25

be wnong

23

THE CHAIRMAN:

to withhold militany aid fnom an ally fighting the
UNCLASS

I FIED

Russians

 83

UNCLASSIEIED

7

fon political favons in a Pnesidential neelection
A VIBASSADOR

2
3

of that

4

feel

5

6
7

comfontable giving a

AMBASSADOR

13

t4
15
16

answen

to that.

Really. So you think unden certain
cincumstances, it is okay to withhold
AIvIBASSADOR REEKER: That is not at all what I said, sin.

9

12

definitive

THE CHAIRIvIAN:

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.

11

would depend on the exact context

with something like that, so I don't

and what decisions may go

8

10

it

REEKER: Again,

campaign?

REEKER: You'ne asking

me

to give

definitive

a

answen

to a hypothetical question.

it wene hypothetical but nonetheless
Reeken, I think it is a fainly simple question.

THE CHAIRMAN:
Ambassadon

I

wish

The Uknainians wene deeply

the two Pnesidents, were they
AMBASSADOR

intenested

in

REEKER:

It

interested in having a meeting between
not?

was

our stnategy, oun goal.

We wene

veny

having a meeting take place.

t7

THE CHAIRMAN: And so wene

18

AMBASSADOR

19

THE CHAIRIvIAN:

20

AMBASSADOR

2t

THE CHAIRIT4AN: And

REEKER:

It

the Uknainians, night?

YCS.

was veny impontant

to

Uknaine, was

REEKER: To my undenstanding,

it

was impontant

it

it

not?

was, yes.

to Uknaine,

because a meeting

that the

22

with the United States Pnesident in the Oval Office

23

Pnesident of Uknaine has a nelationship with the Pnesident of the United

24

States, night?

25

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

CONNCCt.

UNCLASSTFIED

shows

new

 84

UNCLASSI FIED

THE CHAIRMAN: And

7
2

advensanies

3

night.

send to

like the Russians, who ane wene occupying Uknainian 1and,

AMBASSADOR

4

that is an impontant signal to

REEKER: That was one

of the

neasons

it

was pant

of

5

our stnategy was to demonstnate suppont fon Pnesident Zelensky and the

6

new chapten

7

that Kunt Volken had outlined

8

thnee, the delegation, had had with the Pnesident on the 23nd of

of Uknaine

accondance

with the stnategy

had emerged fnom the meeting

THE CHAIRMAN: And because

9

in

moving fonward

that

was

that those
May.

in the best intenests of the

10

United States, our national secunity that that meeting happened, you

11

would agree, would you

12

Pnesidential campaign would be wnong.
AMBASSADOR

13

L4

was

the

REEKER:

THE CHAIRMAN:

16

that would be wrong.

18

AMBASSADOR

2t
22
23

24
25

know

that that

Yeah, but

REEKER:

if that

It is the

was

the case, you would agree

pnenogative

of the

Pnesident to

detenmine what meetings he schedules on doesn't.
THE CHAIRMAN:

19

20

If that was the case. I don 't

case.

15

t7

not, to withhold that meeting fon help of the

Is it the pnenogative of the Pnesident to

coence

ally to help with a Pnesidential campaign.
AMBASSADOR REEKER: I mean, unden the -- f don't think, I don't
want to -- excuse me.
an

MR. GOLDMAN:

Let the necond neflect that the witness is

consulting with his attorney.
AMBASSADOR

REEKER: The witness has consulted
UNCLASS

I FIED

his attonney

 85

UNCLASS]FIED

t

because

the witness

THE CHAIRMAN:

2

is not a lawyen.
I'm just asking about night and wnong.

it

And

would be wnong fon the Pnesident of the United

3

wouldn't you agnee that

4

States to withhold eithen a summit meeting with a foneign leaden,

5

withhold militany assistance as levenage to get help with his

6

Pnesidential campaign. Wou1dn't you agnee that that

on

8

is wnong.
AVIBASSADOR REEKER: If that wene indeed the case in a
hypothetical situation, that panticulanly when that was nunning

9

counten

7

to

what was oun descnibed stnategy fon implementing policy,

10

what we had detenmined was the way fonwand,

7t

disappointing.

L2

THE CHAIRIvIAN:

13

AMBASSADOR

t4

something

that I don't

15

hene. You've

L7

Pnesident

the call

REEKER:

AMBASSADOR

25

to

comment on

be the fact.

necond

of the July 25th call

between the

I

read what was neleased,

I

was not on

you.

that

ca11.

2t

24

to

me

WeI1, I'm not asking you about a hypothetical

THE CHAIRMAN: And

23

Okay.

know

20

22

find that

of the United States and President Zelensky, haven't

AMBASSADOR

18
19

nead

would

Again, sin, you ane asking

REEKER:

THE CHAIRMAN:

15

tnlell.

I

you nead Ambassadon Taylon's testimony.

REEKER: Yes,

his neleased statement that

he

neleased.
THE CHAIRMAN: And

the most you can say about a Pnesident

who

office to coence an aIly to undentake political
investigations to his advantage is that it would be disappointing?

would use his

UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS

REEKER: I'm tnying

1

AMBASSADOR

2

MR. MEADOWS: Mn. Chainman,

is

not the

3

neviewing

4

make

5

the deposition.

6

is

7

Taylon.

that clean.

nefenning

to

We

I

full

86

I FIED

to nefen to the neleased pontion.

with all due nespect, what he is

testimony of Ambassadon Taylon.

I

want to

sat in hene fon 7 houns. And so, unless he has

haven't been able to see

it. I don't know what he

othen than a leaked pantial testimony

of

Ambassadon

8

THE CHAIRMAN:

I'm not dinecting him to review anything.

9

Would you nead

the question back fon

MR. MEADOWS:

10
11
72
13
74
15

16

t7
18

thene

So, Counselon,

THE CHAIRMAN:

I'm not asking fon what he is neviewing, I'm just

waiting fon the reponten to read back the question.
AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

opening statement

that

MR. MEADOWS:

Taylor.

was neleased

to

know, I'm neviewing the

publicly by Ambassadon Taylor.

Taylon. I don't

know

that

we

No,

REEKER:

27

AMBASSADOR

22

THE CHAIRMAN: And

25

you want

I don't mean to imply that it was neLeased by
Taylor. I don't believe it was neleased by Ambassadon

THE CHAIRMAN:

20

If

WeII, two points: One, it wasn't necessanily

neleased by Ambassador

Ambassadon

24

he reviewing the deposition

?

79

23

is

me?

the copy of

Ambassadon

I think I

do you

puIIed

it off the internet.

factually dispute anything you saw in

Taylon's written testimony.

I'd have to go over it in far greaten detail.
Much of it was stuff I was not aware of, he descnibed his impnessions
AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

UNCLASS I

FIED

 87

UNCLASSIFIED

1

and othen

THE CHAIRMAN:

2
3

4
5

things I -WeII, Ambassador Taylon does descnibe, I think,

in his wnitten testimony, are we neally going
to hold up militany aid for punposes of a political campaign on wonds
to that effect? You ane awane of that.
in a text

message and

REEKER: Uh-hUh.

6

AMBASSADOR

7

THE CHAIRMAN: And

8

oven

10

considened

REEKER:

that, I

was

not

THE CHAIRMAN: So

11

Ambassadon Taylon thneatened

I

was not awane

awane

this

that this

that he had, I
was happening

that the

conduct

13

think that conduct would be okay on only disappointing.
REEKER: No,

74

AMBASSADOR

15

THE CHAIRMAN:

18
19

Ambassadon

nead

that

sin, I

Okay, then

teII

neven said

me, do you

he

at the time.

to potentiatly nesign oven, am I to understand that

senious enough

L7

nesign

Ambassador thought

L2

15

to

that.
AMBASSADOR

9

that

you

that.

think that conduct that

Taylon descnibed would be wnong.

justified ful1y in taking that
decision to nesign if that was the way he felt, that is a decision fon
him. Again, the conduct is, I don't know what the conduct was. You
AMBASSADOR

REEKER: He would be

2L

if that was what
was taking pIace, and it may have been. I was not awane of that at

22

the

23

So

I'm not comfontable as a caneen foneign senvice officen, you know,

24

to

comment on something

25

the details on cincumstances of any panticulan situation might

20

ane descnibing

time.

fon

me

what he questioned and wondened

Subsequently, we have seen

lots of neponting to that effect.

that I'm not familian with, specifically,

UNCLASS

I FIED

what
be.

 UNCLASS

As a genenal nule,

7

I

want

to

1

88

EIED

see oun

policies followed

and

2

implemented, and centainly pnomoting the White House meeting,

3

supponting Pnesident Zelensky, pnoviding the militany assistance that

4

had been appropriated and appnoved by the Congness

5

was

of the United States

7

cnitical to oun efforts to help Ukraine, and we had a tnemendous
opportunity, we sti1l have, to suppont a whole new dinection thene.
And that's -- as I got updates, and as I mentioned already, was asking

8

negulanly

9

monitoning fon

6

is

thene any news on the White House meeting, we wene

that.

THE CHAIRMAN:

10
1.L

fnom my question.

L2

on

t4

this to

to express an opinion

REEKER: Because

my

opinions ane not what

I

understood

in

change

of the policy of

REEKER:

I

was

not, sin, in

change

of the policy in

Uknaine.
THE CHAIRMAN: We11,

20

command

21

of

for

you had the nesponsibility

what was going on

vis-i-vis

Uknaine as one

in the chain of
of youn, as pant

youn pontfolio, did you not?
AMBASSADOR

23

handled, as

24

Vo1ken

25

can you ane veny neluctant

be for.

AIvIBASSADOR

L9

22

but you're a long distance

Uknaine among othen countries.

77
18

off,

hate to cut you

THE CHAIRMAN: Ambassadon, you were

15
16

I

monitoning fonmation of the govennment.

this subject.
AMBASSADOR

13

I

hle were

in

I

REEKER: The Uknaine

policy implementation

was being

have described by Ambassadon Sondland, Ambassadon

conjunction with --

THE CHAIRMAN:

It

was

part of youn anea of nesponsibility,
UNCLASS I

FIED

was

 89

UNCLASS]FIED

1

it

not.
AMBASSADOR

2
3

is one of the countnies in the

REEKER: The Uknaine

Eunope and Eunasia buneau.
THE CHAIRMAN:

4

I'm asking youn opinion about what was happening

vis-i-vis the Uknaine is important. But I

5

to

6

undenstand your neluctance

7

the Pnesident. But

8

anea,

subvent U.S. policy

9

to express

it is impontant,

an opinion about the conduct of

given youn nesponsibility in this

is night and what you believe is wnong.
AMBASSADOR REEKER: I do not know what the conduct of the
to

know what you

was. I

believe

have not met

or spoken to the Pnesident

on been pant

10

Pnesident

11

of the discussion involved in the phone calls on the specific meetings.

12

t^Jhat

13

things that had been set out, acconding to

14

by the Secnetany and the Pnesident

15

moving fonwand.

I

was monitoning and tnacking was, you know, accomplishing the

To say

16

that I

was dismayed,

to

Ambassadon Volken, embnaced

my undenstanding,

in tenms of

frustnated that the White

is a fain, is

statement.

t7

meeting had not yet taken place

18

was

19

assistance, particulanly the military assistance, was held

20

didn't

definitely
know

concenn, as

exactly

I

a good

House

have already mentioned,

whene on why, so we wene punsuing

Thene

that the

this

up.

We

PCC pnocess

23

to tny to fonce a decision and a movement fonward on that, and that
that was, indeed, thnough that peniod in July going into August was
of concenn to f think all of us wonking on Uknaine tnying to figune

24

out why, whene the oniginal ldea had been to have a White House meeting

25

befone the parliamentany elections

2t
22

in Uknaine. That came and passed.

UNCLASSIF]ED

 UNCLASS

1

It

was

very successful.

THE CHAIRMAN:

2

afield

3

ane fan

4

you have indicated

5

you go

7

8
9

Again,

in

I

hate

question.

fnom my

to cut
So

you

let's

off,

Ambassadon, but you

tunn to the documents that

youn binden sevenal yellow tagged

to the finst yellow

AMBASSADOR

6

90

I FIED

tagged page you have

pages.

Could

in youn binden.

REEKER: YCS.

tel1 us what that document is.
AMBASSADOR REEKER: It is an emai1, fnom let's see, David Ha1e,
the Unden Secretany, nesponding to my fonwanding to my fonwanding to
THE CHAIRMAN: Can you

10

him, we had had an eanlien engagement

t7

in

Manch,

in tenms of the

bnoad question

fon a couple weeks.
What's the date

L2

THE CHAIRMAN:

13

AMBASSADOR

14

THE CHAIRMAN: Can

15

AIvIBASSAD0R

of the email.

REEKER: 26th Of MArCh.

you nead us what that email contains.

REEKER: Ambassadon Yovanovitch had

to

that Ukrainian television

told us --

sent

had conducted public

16

an email noting

77

opinion polling neganding the leve1 of tnust to Lutsenko, he had been

18

the Pnosecuton

19

he laten necanted, about Ambassadon Yovanovitch vensus statements

20

issued by the U.S. side, the statements, the embassy and the Department

2L

had put

22

tnust

23

11.1 pencent do not cane. And Masha had sent that to us noting the

24

subject line, a bnight spot in

my

25

fact that the Uknainian people

wene, you know, undenstood

us

who had

raised aII of these accusations,

out in nesponse to questions.

Ambassadon

And

some

of which

83.4 pencent of nespondents

Yovanovitch, 5.5 pencent tnust Lutsenko,

and

day, which, indeed, undensconed the

UNCLASS

I E]ED

the sort of

 UNCLASS

L

nasty

Uknaine.

THE CHAIRMAN: And what

2
3

politics afoot in

nesponse

4

is the gist of the email that is

REEKER:

I

forwanded funthen

5

you know, we had been discussing over

6

was

9

this

this happening in Manch.
Why did all this bannage of stuff
And Geonge Kent,

8

insights

in

to that.

AI'IBASSADOR

7

91

I FIED

the deputy

fnom some Uknainian

10

in

11

known as

t2

THE

13

AMBASSADOR

to

Unden Secnetany Ha1e,

peniod why, and why now,

begin?

who manages

Ukraine, pnovided

journalists that he had meet in

Cambnidge, Massachusetts, and they wene commenting on

some

an event

the

dynamic

the Giuliani-Lutsenko dynamic and
CHAIRMAN: And what was

REEKER:

that?

Sure.

So

Would you nead

that

panagraph?

I'm quoting hene, fnom,

now

just

18

this is
MR. MEADOWS: So is this an exhibit we have, MF. Chainman? I
guess what I'm saying is, is this a fishing expedition? Ane we just
going to ask him to read 4Q@ pages of 3 inch
THE CHAIRMAN: We may have to, Mn. Meadows, because these ane

19

documents

!4
15
16
L7

to

be veny clean

that have not been pnovided the committee.

MR. MEADOWS: But

20

2t

and fnom what

22

his

23

24
25

memory,
THE

I

they ane govennment documents, Mt". Chainman,

undenstand they wene bnought

not as an investigative tool.

CHAIRMAN: Repnesentative Meadows,

nead fnom

in to help him nefresh

the

documents and

MR. MEADOWS:

WeIl,

f

guess
UNCLASS I

FIED

I'm asking the witness to

 UNCLASS

MS. DAUM: Mn. Chainmar,

7

document.

I

note

92

] FIED

I'm penfectly happy to let him nead this

that those yellow flags

were placed by counsel

2

one

3

as pant

4

individual yellow flagged

5

Mn. Meadows has

6

documents. They ane

7

helping Mr. Reeken undenstand the events in which he was panticipating.

8

They ane

May

of our discussions pnion to this meeting. Asking

stated,

document and nead them

was

him

to

neview

in the necord,

as

not the intention of bninging these

to help assist the committee in

to help him nefnesh his necollection.

tale

pnoviding in

wene mone

than happy

1_0

to coopenate and pnovide assistance but, again, asking him to nefen
to each individual document is going to be -- is not the intention of

11

this.

9

t2
13

L4

If

you don't want him

to

want him

be able

to

to nefer to his binden, and if

pnovide you the detailed infonmation --

THE CHAIRMAN: Counsel, you

I did not.

15

yellow-tagged pages,

16

attonney-client communication.

77

But the witness

18

[rJe

19

ane

disclosed the substance of the

That was youn choice

to disclose that

is neferring to documents to nefnesh his memony.

entit]ed to

know what

those documents ane that nefnesh his

memony.

20

MS. DAUM: You ane.

2t

THE

22

So

23

MS. DAUM:

24

THE CHAIRMAN:

25

you don't

CHAIRIfiN: And no pnopen objection

the witness

pentaining

will

answen

is laid.

the question.

I'm not sune what the question

If the question

to the Giuliani

was, what does the email say

discussion?
UNCLASS ]

was.

FIED

 93

UNCLASSI FIED

AMBASSADOR

L

of

REEKER: So to pnovide the appnopniate context,

that was fonwanded to

this

2

is

3

oun Deputy Assistant Secnetany fon Uknaine, who, as he descnibed

4

pnovided colon commentany fnom Cambnidge, whene he was that long

5

weekend

6

talked about two jounnalists

7

"offline"

an excenpt

And

8
9

in

something

Manch, met

with Uknainian jounnalists,
who

offened

--

shaned

me by Geonge Kent,

and

it,

they both --

he

their views, quote,

sepanately.

I will

quote what he

wnote.

He

said they had talked to playens

extensively in Kyiv the past 5 days and knew that the Kyiv dynamic was

that Guiliani

had probably

initiated

10

Giuliani-Lutsenko.

LT

the nelationship. Panenthetical note, (I remain unsure, and I think

12

it

Both thought

was Lutsenko) close

panenthesis. But even if Lutsenko had neached

74

out, they felt that Giuliani shaped the dynamics of the, quote,
"neveaI." Of most note, Giuliani allegedly told Lutsenko that he was

15

acting fu11y on the Pnesident's behalf and the Pnesident wanted Masha

15

gone.

13

L7

This alleged

message feeds

18

proceed with the attacks,

19

by delivening.

the determination of Lutsenko to

feeling they can validate their usefulness

23

I don't feel comfontable using the names of two jounnalists. Is
it all night just to nefer to two people who told him this?
THE CHAIRMAN: That is fine.
AMBASSADOR REEKER: These two people also felt that negardless

24

of how much Ponoshenko knew on authonized the openation, the team was,

25

quote, "aII in" and would not stop, in nefenence to the attacks on Masha.

20
27
22

UNCLASS I

FIED

 UNCLASS

94

I EIED

1

Each was

appalled at what Lutsenko had done and did not see any winnen

2

in this

gambit except

THE CHAIRMAN:

3

Moscow.

If

we could go

to

next yellow tabbed document.

6

tell us, is that an email and who it is to and fnom.
AMBASSADOR REEKER: This is just a list of, let me figune out,
this is fonwanding George Kent's updates on the Wednesday, the 27th

7

to Counsel

8

updates on The

4
5

You can

Bnechbuhl and Unden Secretany Hale, fon the Wednesday

HiIl anticle,

and

it is just a 1ot of

pness pieces.

Is that the one you nefenenced earlien that

9

THE CHAIRMAN:

10

the foun subject mattens.

had

15

I think, was the wond
I think I used, on Geonge had another term fon it fon
THE CHAIRMAN: So, I'm sonny, what date is that document.
AMBASSADOR REEKER: This one is the 27th of Manch, so it is in
the second week as all that stony was coming out. Yeah. I had come

16

on

77
72
13

L4

AMBASSADOR

the, stanted

REEKER: The

four nannatives,

on the 18th, and

this is the following week.

And so

19

it is -- this is not that specific one, I think it was fnom these, and
I would have to find, again, the one whene Geonge sort of had, he and
his team had looked at all of this with the embassy, because one of

20

the questions

21

was

22

why now was

23

pnesidential election. And so, he was fonwarding these

24

didn't

77
18

25

posed

to

me by

the Counselor, and the

Unden Secnetany

exactly sont of what is pnompting this and why now?
very tied to the Uknainian

political

I think the

season, and the

up.

And

I

lots of them. I
couldn't possibly read all of them, but I sent ones that seemed to
send eveny

single item

because thene wene

UNCLASS

I FIED

 95

UNCLASSITIED

1

captune sort

of

where

THE CHAIRMAN:

3

AMBASSADOR

as to -THE CHAIRMAN: Can

5

6

AMBASSADOR

8

fnom David HaIe.

tell

us

is it

an email

to and fnom and the

REEKER:

It is an email fnom me nesponding to an email

THE CHAIRMAN: ON WhAt dAtC.

9

REEKER: The

10

AMBASSADOR

11

THE CHAIRMAN:

I

28th, the next day.

can see

that is a shont email.

What does

AMBASSADOR

14

have

15

if --

REEKER:

This is just the

Unden Secretany saying

tnied to get guidance from the Counselon, and suggesting to
THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want

16

to just

nead

it fon us. It

would

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

I

have

me

be

tnied sevenal times to get guidance

Ulnich, to no avail. I suggest Phil call to see if

we can okay,

19

fnom

20

one, hen -- Masha's use of social media in self-defense and,

2L

nelease

23

I

simplen than panaphnasing.

18

22

it

provide.

13

77

you

date.

7

L2

was.

Let's go to the next yellow tab then.
REEKER: And that is just simply me saying I inquined

2

4

the stony

of a Depantment

And as we

B,

statement.

talked eanlien, ultimately, the

answen fnom David HaIe

was no statement.

Let's go on to the next yellow tab.

24

THE CHAIRMAN:

25

MR. MALINOWSKI. Excuse me, seeking guidance, what was the
UNCLASS I

FIED

 UNCLASS

L

all

seeking guidance
AMBASSAD0R

2
3

I

4

from

have

95

I FIED

about?

REEKER:

I couldn't teII

is just this email, just, "I tnied

you

that

definitively.

sevenal times

to get

Ulrich." I think at that time we wene still in this

A11

guidance

issue of,

7

this, and what can Masha do? And so his refenence
to using social media in self-defense to make that case, we discussed
eanlien, he had suggested she might want to put out some kind of

8

statement, and then the question of neleasing a Depantment statement.

5

5

how do we push back on

10

I can't -- I think that is in the context of what he was seeking
guidance on but I can't say that definitively, since it is from the

11

Unden

L2

compnehensive. So

9

But

Secnetany. And hene is the one that descnibes the, sont of, the

this is

THE CHAIRMAN: You

13

by now 2 weeks, so

ane nefenning

this is the April 1st.

to anothen email now.

Can you

16

is to and fnom and the date.
AMBASSADOR REEKER: This is fnom Geonge to myself and othens
within the Buneau where he has put togethen this, what I descnibed

L7

earlien, this four

18

the foun nanratlves that he could see that

19

belonged

t4
15

20
27

tell

us who that

main nannatives

to essentially

that

wene coming

out of this banrage,

all of this,

these stories

of these foun majon nannatives.
THE CHAIRMAN: My colleagues may want to go thnough it

detail, but let's

go on

one

to the next yellow

REEKER:

mone

in

tab.

I think it is the last yel]ow tab.

22

AIvIBASSADOR

23

Mn. MEADOWS: Mn. Chairman, again, what questions ane we asking

24

othen than tnying to get him

25

questions?

I don't -- it

to

nead emails so

neal1y

will

UNCLASS

that

have a

I EIED

you can ask

different

chilling effect

on eveny

 97

UNCLASS]FIED

if

1

single witness

2

in

3

all. I can't imagine that in a

documents

to

chilling effect?

5

this

The White House sending

saying don't show
MR. MEADOWS:

7

up.

if

bning

I may get you to read them
you know what has

a

lettens to witnesses like

you want

to --

I don't know of a single witness that has not shown

THE CHAIRMAN:

--

encounage

MR. MEADOWS: Has

11.

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

t2

MR. MEADOWS: They

13

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

L4

MR. MEADOWS: WhiCh

15

THE CHAIRMAN:

up the time

this

point?

could be litigated

ONC.

WeII, we can fill

you

in

when we

are not taking

of the witness.
I'm not awane of

77

MR. MEADOWS:

18

THE CHAIRMAN: We

to

the witnesses

a single witness not shown up at

10

just

one.

heard fnom one yestenday who

is not going

show up.
MR. MEADOWS:

20
27

So

to do is don't

up.

9

19

them

nefnesh youn memony, because

5

16

to teII

THE CHAIRMAN: Repnesentative Meadows, do

4

8

what you ane going

I'm saying to date eveny single witness has shown

up --

24

is not even nemotely accunate, Mn. Meadows.
But let's discuss this outside the pnesence of the witness. The
witness has testified, Mn. Meadows, that he used these documents to

25

nefnesh his

22
23

THE CHAIRMAN:

That

necollection.

We

have every

UNCLASS

night to find out what he has

I FIED

 UNCLASS I

1

used

to

nefnesh

98

FlED

his necollection.
But recollection on what question, Mn. Chainman?

2

MR. MEADOWS:

3

THE CHAIRMAN:

0n his testimony

today. So, Mn. Meadows, I'm

4

sorry, but there is

5

been one

6

contents of these documents to become known to the committee, but thene

7

is

no

legitimate objection to lodge hene, non has thene

lodged. I can appreciate that

membens may

not want the

9

this witness
MR. MEADOWS: I don't object. I don't object to anything that
actually funthers the tnansparency. What I do object to is you have

10

got a counseLon and a witness who have obviously gone thnough and tried

tl.

to highlight things

72

a question whene they can quickly nefen

13

should go through

8

no othen neason

MS. DAUM:

1.4

15

so

pnevent

that in the event that you on the minority

that they

I do object to the chanactenization of the neason why

THE CHAIRMAN:

We}I, you have given the charactenization of

the yellow flags are there, and

I

accept your nepnesentation

MS. DAUM: The neason why has

19

THE CHAIRMAN:

20

lodged

2L

to,

hene.

The

not

But, in any event, there

witness

will

go back

why

--

been

is

no pnopen objection

to the

document we wene nefenning

1et

ask one othen

and please descnibe the date
MR. MEADOWS: So, Mn. Chainman,

tnying to induce the witness

me

23

You ane not

24

pnivilege by asking them to read that out,

25

suggest

and

18

22

to it, to

ask

those yeIlow flags ane there.

16
17

to

Because

that is what it

hene

appeans

UNCLASS I

FIED

to

bneach

is that

thing, then.

attorney-client
cornect.

 99

UNCLASS]FIED

1

THE CHAIRMAN: My

colleague, it is the lawyen's pnerogative to

2

disclose to the committee, her attonney-client pnivileges. She has

3

done so

4

to the document.

5

6

MR. MEADOWS:

9
10

I don't necall it.

Could we have the clenk nead

Maybe she

if

we can retunn

could nead that.
awane

I'fi not going to allow

of that.

any furthen

de1ay.
MS. DAUM: Might

I just

those flags wene there

is

say you ane assuming

I'm not

assuming

THE CHAIRIvIAN:

12

I'm just asking the witness to

neason why

anything, Counselon.

answen

the question.

L4

will be no funthen intennuptions,
MS. DAUM: It is an assumption.

15

THE

There

CHAIRMAN:

that the

covered by the pnivilege.

71

13

So

that back, because I'm not

THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Meadows,

7

8

in pant. That was hen decision, not mine.

please.

I'm not assuming anything except what you told us,

15

so Ambassador Reeker, you may

77

and fnom and

telI

us what

the date on it, please.

UNCLASS I

FIED

that

document

is, the to

 UNCLASS ]

1

2

100

FIED

12:32 p.m.l
AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

This is an email that I pulled out. I

specifically pulling this out

because

that pentains to the

3

rememben

4

question you asked and I answened eanlien about the nole of Ambassadon

5

Sondland.

6

Thene was

stuff not at all

connected

to Uknaine, but I also

asked

7

the Unden Secnetany, neminding you that I've been on the gnound in this

8

job fon 2 weeks, to undenstand betten

9

Unden Secnetary nesponded

10

THE CHAIRIvIAN:

11

AMBASSADOR

why Gondon

is involved and the

I'm sonny, can you tel1 us the

REEKER:

ApniI

date?

2nd.

13

April 2nd. And it's from you to -AMBASSADOR REEKER: WeII, it's a stning so it

L4

THE CHAIRMAN:

15

MR

L2

16

t7
18

THE CHAIRMAN:

A stning between you and

whom?

REEKER: And David Hale, the Unden Secnetany. My

-- the head

of policy.
THE CHAIRMAN: And

chnonological onden,

in

if

you could nead us the stning fnom

tenms

the -- in

of the time.

20

It has nothing do with this case, the othen
things, until separately I asked to undenstand betten why Gondon is

27

so involved.

19

22
23

24
25

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

THE CHAIRMAN: Can

the neply

you

tell

us what you asked about

that

and what

was?

I just told you. I asked him:
I'd like to undenstand why Gondon is so involved.
AIvIBASSADOR

REEKER:

UNCLASS

IFIED

Sepanately,

 101

UNCLASS I

1

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.

2

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

FIED

That's anothen thing. And he

is innegulan.

I believe I

3

Yes, Sondland angle

4

to that as the chanactenization of the nole

5

new

And

when

I

nesponded:

alneady

testified

had asked, coming

7

into this, why the Ambassadon to the Eunopean Union was that
involved. And that was the answen from the Unden Secnetany.
THE CHAIRMAN: And was that the sum to total on that document of

8

the discussion of

6

AMBASSADOR

9
10

REEKER:

Geonge Kent and had do
THE CHAIRMAN:

11

t2

Ambassadon Sondland

Yes.

Okay. If

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

-- the date hene is Apnil 22nd.

15

in Germany. Yeah. Yeah, I

16

it doesn't teI1
THE

77

MR

23

24
25

all

was

about

to the next yellow

So

I

was

in Stuttgart.

to

do

with

at this time in --

back

had

The pnoblem

with emai},

you whene you ane.

CHAIRMAN: Yeah, you

you could

19

22

we could move on

Okay. This was -- again, this

keeping

2t

stuff

with Geongia, diffenent thing.

t4

20

The nest was sepanate

tagged page.

13

18

on Uknaine?

don't

need

to look

up youn

locatlon. If

just --

REEKER: WeI1,

I

want

to

be complete

if I'm going to nead you

my emails.

I didn't ask you the location.
AMBASSADOR REEKER: I was in Stuttgant. So thene had been a
question about making sure Under Secnetany Hale was getting aII of
the -- you know, he wanted to make sune he was getting infonmation.
THE CHAIRMAN:

THE CHAIRMAN: So

this is

an email fnom you on

UNCLASS

I FIED

is this

anothen

 LO2

UNCLASS

7

I FIED

chain?
REEKER:

AMBASSADOR

2

of it.

I

This is a chain that begins: I'm not even

calIed back to the office to say, you know,

3

a part

4

Secretany Hale wants

5

decision infonmation

6

handling Uknaine, Geonge Kent and his team thene, which, as

7

have been whirning

8

last

had

to be mone tightly
cycle. So this is

--

to the team that's

whinniog, w-h-i-n-n-i-n-g

I

put

it,

-- at wanp speed the

sevenal weeks.

That's fnom Geonge to the

9

in the Uknaine

lashed up
back

Unden

Unden

--

10

sont of making sune

TL

was

L2

the Chief of Staff was: That sounds

13

If

L4

good

15

Secnetany

how we wene

Secretany's

we

broadly,

staff.
how

And

this

the Uknaine

was

team

feeding infonmation to the Under Secnetany. And the nesponse fnom

you

flag things fon the staffer

shape. Phil can

neach

right.

The

current flow is fine.

and me when needed, we

out dinectly to P -- the

will

be in

Unden

16

-- on me -- the Chief of Staff -- whenever needed to ensune
he is looped in, especially with negand to anything for the Secnetany,

t7

because

18
19

20
21
22

the Under Secretary handles that.

And then Geonge has fonwarded

oun evening

telcon

--

to

me

saying:

telephone convensation

-- I

Pen

the below

engaged

and

the Chief

of Staff on how much he wanted and we've been shoveling infonmation
to the staffens, the staffens' way.
THE CHAIRMAN: And the date on that document again?
REEKER:

23

AMBASSADOR

24

THE CHAIRMAN:

25

AMBASSADOR

April

Okay.

And

REEKER: That

22nd.

is that the gist of the

communication?

is, yes, very much. And it

UNCLASS]FIED

includes

a

 103

UNCLASS

I FIED

2

of the press stonies, a
numben of bylines, some tweets, vanious things that he just was

3

demonstnating.

1

4
5

5
7

string of infonmation,

condensed vensions

-- and f can nememben being in -- that's why it was nelevant
whene was I -- I was back in Stuttgart. And I wanted to make sune that
the team, which had been feeding me stuff, was feeding it to the Unden
Secnetany, who was neally the -- you know, is the head of policy -- and

I

was

12

filten stuff to the Secnetany as appnopniate.
MR. LYNCH: Could we know if Ambassador Sondland is on that chain?
AMBASSADOR REEKER: He is not. This was neally the
internal -- you know, the stuff was still coming, we'ne now about a
month fnom this initial deluge, and how pnocess-wise, we'ne just making

13

sune evenybody was

t4

complex email chains.

8
9
10
11

in the loop, which, of counse, is what leads to these

15

THE CHAIRMAN:

16

AMBASSADOR

L7

Let's go to the next

REEKER: And

THE CHAIRMAN: ThC

19

AMBASSADOR

2t
22
23

24
25

George forwarding

to

me on

the

26th.

18

20

this is

document.

26th Of --

REEKER: Apni1,

I'm sonny, 26th of Apnil this

yean.

I was, what I was doing.
Yeah, so this was -- I was still in Stuttgart. I had descnibed
fon the necord as pant of the deposition eanlien it was the 24th of
Apnil whene things took a tunn. I can't nememben the quote that I nead
yoU, but I had lot of calls about the situation, unhappiness
lust let

me

get nefenence of

THE CHAIRMAN:

TC]I

whene

US.

UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS I

REEKER:

AMBASSADOR

L

then fonwanding to

3

fnom Embassy

4

thnoughout the embassy.

situation.

Kyiv's pness collection.

Subject: Pnesident

5

about the

And so Geonge was

on Fniday the 26th new stuff. This

2

me

--

104

F]ED

Tnump

So

is fonwanding

it

they had fonwanded

discusses Uknaine on the Hannity

6

prognam and a new Uknaine-nelated column

7

And Geonge

8

to

9

Ambassador,

in The HiIl, the publication.

just pointed out fon me -- again, I'm oven in Genmany tnying

make sune

we're genenally thene

i. e.,

Ambassadon

-- it says:

No mention

of

the

Yovanovitch, focus instead on the alleged

the Boden --

t7

I think that's supposed to be
Biden, but it's a typo -- Bunisma stnands of the stony line. As I

L2

descnibed

13

identified as stnands two and thnee, with the attack

l4

and

15

anticonnuption

16

why

10

t7
18
19

Clinton 2016 collusion

the foun stnands that

the anticonnuption

I

and

flagged

NGO

pnognams

Geonge had

identified,

as stnand one, and the attack on the

was neitenating

foun.

So

that's

--

in that chain of communication?
AMBASSAD0R REEKER: George Kent sent it to myself, the Acting
was head of the pness office.
Pnincipal Deputy,
THE CHAIRMAN: And

20

THE CHAIRMAN:

2L

AMBASSADOR

who's

I'm sonny, who's the Acting?

REEKER: His name is Michael Munphy. While

I was gone

Acting -- anothen one of the seven DAS's, and he was Acting

22

he was the

23

while I was away. And the head of oun pness office,

24

has since moved on

25

I

on the Ambassadon

as a Soros onganization as stnand

this. It

what

to a new assignment.
THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go on I think to
UNCLASSIEIED

maybe

the last.

,

who

 105

UNCLASS

AMBASSADOR

L

2

this is

3

Geonge Kent.

REEKER:

] FIED

I think you 've expined the yellow tabs .

the dinecton, so he would be essentially the deputy to

fnom

thc

4

THE CHAIRMAN: WhAt,S

5

AIVIBASSADoR

6

the 1,0th. So context

7

You'Il

8

We

9

Benlin Benlin had been postponed.

neca11

I

dAtC?

-- Moy, excuse me, May
hene. Ah, yes. I was I had gotten back.

REEKER: Fniday, Manch

mentioned May the 9th

I

had netunned

with the Secnetany.

tnaveled to Rovaniemi, Finland, fon the Anctic Council meeting, to
We'd had

10

unexpectedly because of the Inanian issues

11

to

t2

the --

London and

schedule,

thene.

Baghdad

And then we'd gone

don't neaIIy

need youn whole

tnavel

just intenested in the document. Can you te1l us

AMBASSADOR

15

to go to

I'd anrive at Andnews the monning of the 9th, gone to

THE CHAIRIvIAN: Ambassadon, we

13

74

And

REEKER: talel1,

things

it

helps give

they wene sending

L7

fonwanding on a Newsweek stony, "How Rudy

18

of

an anti-Trump conspiracy

19

THE CHAIRMAN: ANd

20

AIvIBASSADOR

and why

in

REEKER: And

context, sin, into

I pulIed them out.

16

me

me

Giuliani's

So

this

Uknaine may have ousted an Ambassadon."

it just

noted

this Newsweek piece

highlights the Giuliani-Lutsenko connection that is at the noot of

22

this,

23

descnibed.

24

that says, "Giuliani plans to

25

him

Thene

was

unfounded claims

2t

as you'11 necaI1, one

why

of the sont of

stnands

that

Geonge had

is also he nefens to a New Yonk Times anticle
go

to Kyiv to

meet

all

today

with Zelensky and unge

to continue investigating the alleged Uknainian collusion with the
UNCLASS I

FIED

 UNCLASS I

106

FIED

1

Clinton campaign and the case again Hunten Biden." So it's just

2

infonmational on what was in the pness.
THE CHAIRMAN: And

3

4

anyone

6

email to

8
9
10
LL
L2
13

L4
15

head

of

THE

of the cable that

to the Secnetany?
AMBASSADOR REEKER: I did not neceive it
"NODISr" but I have seen it since.
THE

CHAIRMAN: And what's the natune

THE

19

testimony

25

REEKER: Sonny

Ambassador

Taylon sent

18

24

Okay.

CHAIRMAN: Did you neceive a copy

AVIBASSADOR

23

0h, it is.

Uknaine, the DAS, Geonge Kent.

77

22

I did not send that out. This is an incoming

if I did not make cIean. This is an
email fnom the office dinector, who is essentially the deputy to the
AMBASSADOR

say you've seen

2L

sent that out from

me.

16

20

REEKER:

THE CHAIRMAN:

7

when you

?

AMBASSADOR

5

did you get a reply

it since, when does that
REEKER:

CHAIRMAN:

This past

because

it

of that cable?
mean

was sent

And when you

you've seen it?

weeK.

Is that something you reviewed to pnepare for

youn

?

I think that's a fain -- fain to say.
I went back to find it. I had not seen it in the oniginal that I recaII.
I thinkthe date of it was -- let's see hene -- August 29th. And this
was -- again, it's a classified cable, so I won't speak to it unden
anything that is classified.
THE CHAIRMAN: Did you know about the cable at the time?
AMBASSADOR

REEKER: Yeah,

UNCLASSI FIED

 707

UNCLASS]EIED

REEKER: 0n August

1

AMBASSADOR

2

THE CHAIRMAN: So was

3

the cable eithen

4

when you went

5

5
7

8
9

10

time you actually leanned about
Taylon's testimony or

it last week?
AMBASSADOR REEKER: I believe it was the finst time and that's
why I went to neview it. If I had seen it on been awane of it, I did
not necalI that. And it was when I nead nefenence to it that I looked
it up to find it, because
THE CHAIRMAN: And how did you obtain it if you only saw it last
to

neview

week?

REEKER:

AMBASSADOR

t2

You know thene's Lots

neview

asked my staff

to get it

fnom

the watch.

cables online.

thene othen documents you also sought to

in pnepanation fon youn testimony

AMBASSADOR

15

I

of emails, lots of

THE CHAIRMAN: Wene

13

16

finst

I don't believe I did, no.

when you nead about Ambassadon

11

74

the

29th,

REEKER: Really

just

today?

as much of the email as

I

could

go thnough.

t7

THE CHAIRMAN: So

apant fnom the cable and the binder, wene thene

-- in the binden of documents you have with you today --

18

other

19

there othen documents you sought to neview that you do not have with

20

you today?

2t
22
23

AMBASSADOR

I

have bnought

to tny

to sont of put togethen the timeline into -- which is, I was hoping,
would be helpful to you to undenstand my engagement and involvement.
THE CHAIRMAN:

24
25

REEKER: Calendans mostly, which

wene

back

Let

me

ask one mone question and I'm going

-- on ane we out of time? We'ne out of time. Okay.
UNCLASS

I FIED

to

Then

hand

I will

 UNCLASS

1

108

] FIED

yield to the minonity.

If

4

to eat.
AMBASSADOR REEKER: I'm fine with that. No, neally, tru1y,
Scout's honon. I'm been tnying to figune out how to diet. No,

5

absolutely,

2
3

MR. MEADOWS:

sin.

you need

6

MR. MEADOWS: The

7

AMBASSADOR

8

deposition diet.

REEKER: ThiS

NOt

AN

BY MR. CASTOR:

a

10

Always

if

you need

you know, please

12

anen't super comfontable.

13

comfontable, we tny

A I finished

74

to

to consult with your lawyen, step out,

feel free to 1et us know.

11

So

Because these depositions

to the extent we can make them mone

to do it.
my

coffee, so by 45 minutes I'11 pnobably need

step out.

16

a

t7

When you

Okay.

took youn post as the Acting Assistant Secnetany, what

18

was youn undenstanding

19

leveI

20

iS

appetite-inducing experience.

9

15

fon the considenation.

Thank you

of the U.S. policy towands Uknaine was at a high

?

A

We wene

dedicated

to

supporting Uknaine, a democnatic

its

2t

Uknaine, Westenn-oriented, supporting

22

supponting

23

militany attack, which was ongoing. That included of

24

nobust sanctions

25

included wonking with othen countnies

it

nefonms, which we had,

against the Russian not only malign influence, but
counse a veny

policy. And oun diplomacy mone bnoadly acnoss Europe
to continue the bnoad suppont

UNCLASS I EIED

 109

I F]ED

UNCLASS

1

fon those sanctions,

2

diplomacy standpoint, explaining

3

against the face of a

4

going on

5

And

in

7

in

10

lot of Russian disinfonmation,

wene nemankably

of electing Zelensky.

tenms

what was neally

fnee and
So

that

fain,

was a11

and

fainly

nesounding

the bnoad thing.

And

I've stated befone, my manching ordens, as it were, wene continuity
of supponting all of the policy aspects in regard to the whole pontfolio
as

in all

50 countries and

a

11
72

that, tnying to help othens see,

of counse then the tnansition, you know, supponting fnee, fain

elections, which

9

sanctions, from the public

Ukraine.

6

8

Eunopean Union

And

that

NATO

was on

and EU engagement and othen things.

tnack and proceeding acconding to the U.S.'s

plan when you took youn post?

t4

A Yeah. I mean, when I arnived, the big focus was on the
elections. As I mentioned bniefly, I'd had the shont tnip down to

15

Odessa

L6

counse Ambassadon Yovanovitch was thene, Ambassador Volker was thene,

t7

and these EU officials

18

in the Odessa pont.

13

in

So

19

my EUCOM capacity, accompanied by Ambassadon

in a show of

suppont by having

SondIand. 0f

this ship visit

I think that was on tnack. We knew that these elections

20

cnucial and we wanted to get thnough them and be able to

2L

depending on
And

22

the

were

move fonwand

outcome.

then, of course, what I did undenstand once I got

the nole that

Ambassadon Volken

23

was

24

a gnasp

25

Sondland would play

of that, but that

he had a veny

played,

IFIED

the gnound

I hadn't had as much of

leading noIe, and that

a big nole.
UNCLASS

on

Ambassadon

 UNCLASS

2
3

4
5

of

And,

1

counse, that

all

110

I FIED

became cleanen and mone

defined aften

they had sont of been named as the delegation to the Zelensky

to brief the Pnesident aftenwands and took
the 1ead, with the fuII suppont of the Secnetany and the Pnesident,
in implementing the sont of way ahead that I descnibed earlien.
inaugunation and then met

And pant

a

6

of

implementing the U.S. policy with Uknaine

was

7

financial assistance and militany assistance with the use of lethaI

8

defensive

10
11

And

that

administ nation

A I

L2
13

That is conrect, yes.

A
a

9

weapons?

was

a slight

change

in policy

fnom

the

pnevious

?

wasn't tnacking particulanly closely at that time the

pnevious administnation's Uknaine

policy, but I do know that the

15

lethal -- the pnovision of -- now I'm going to -- maybe I do need to
eat -- went blank on the lavelins. The defense systems was a new aspect

16

unden

t4

this.
And

T7

I

do know,

that State

I

keep

and USAID assistance fon Ukraine, which

18

me,

19

by the Congness and so those

20

IEECA

27

was

22
23

24
25

this note cand all the time actually with
allocations

ane

a

fiscal
And

eanmanked

diffenent than oun regulan

funding, on the assistance fon Eastenn

fon

is

Eunope and Centnal Asia,

year 2Ot9 appnoaching $450 million, $qqS.7 million.

the pnovision of lethal defensive

weapons was

a

substantial upgnade in the overall policy?

A Yeah. Again, I don't -- I wouldn't want to get into
chanacterizing too much because I just don't -- I wasn't familiar with
UNCLASS

I FIED

 11L

UNCLASS]FIED

1

what

2

and

was. I inherited -- this is

that's neally what I

a

3

4

A I think

6

centainly befone

inhenited and

whene we wene

the thinking was behind pnoviding lethal

to Uknaine?
those wene debates and discussions that wene had

my time.

a Okay. Was it to pnevent funthen Russian incunsion?
A It was certainly to help Uknaine defend itself fnom exactly

7

8
9

I

was focused on.

Do you know what

defensive weapons

5

what

that.

13

a And has that aid done what it was intended to do?
A I'm not sune. I think the simple, bnoad answen is yes, that
it's helped. The Russians ane still there, thene is still a wan going
on. Thene ane vanious political and diplomatic pnocesses at work,

L4

Ambassadon Volken was veny much

15

anywhene, and

10
11
L2

a

16
L7

was

a pant of one, which have not

I think that's langely because of Moscow's

When Ambassador

its

A I mean, again, we had outlined,

18

nole.

Taylon went out to Uknaine, anniving

the U.S. policy on tnack to meet

as

moved

in

June,

objectives?

I outlined fon you, sevenal

stnategy. That included suppont

19

goals

20

for

2L

meeting, which was not on tnack. The hope had been to have that befone

22

the panliamentany elections in Uknaine. That did not

mone immediate, an immediate

Ze1ensky, who was then new, and

a

23

24

I

25

course

that included having the White

Taylon had naised the pnospect

hean you say you

of his

occun.

of nesigning. Did you -- did

that you only leanned about that

statement on the news accounts?
UNCLASS

House

I FIED

secondhand

in the

 1.12

UNCLASS I EIED

A Connect. You know, I think I

7

descnibed some reluctance

the position, and he wanted to

2

had had about taking

3

Secnetary and to be neassuned

4

And

5

meeting with the Secretany he was neady

6

then annived and took change

I believe he found that

a
A
a
A

7
8
9

10

And since

that Uknaine policy

was

with the

not changing.

reassunance, because aften the May 28th

to go,

at Embassy

and then subsequently

Kyiv.

his annival, U.S. policy has not changed, has it?

No, sin.
And

it

nemains on tnack?

Again, thene were some, going back to what

11

the goals that Kunt Volken bniefed

t2

there

13

a yelIow tag.

wene some

--

some

-- I

me

on

I

descnibed as

followingthe meetingMay 23rd,

can nefen back

to it.

It

does not have

So, again, these wene takeaways on the way fonward, indeed the

L4
15

President has signed a congnatulatony

16

invite
THE CHAIRMAN:

17
18

meet

he

nefenning

to,

let

He did

us know what the witness

is

what document?

AMBASSADOR

19

Could the witness

letter to Zelensky.

REEKER:

This

is

what

I

neferned

to eanlien, sin.

is the neadout I got from Ambassador Volker aften the Thunsday,

20

This

27

May 23nd, meeting

22

had been appointed by

23

Zelensky, that is Volken, Sondland, Secnetany Penny. And they had gone

24

to the White House, met with the Pnesident. And I think I

25

eanlien that

of the Uknainian, what

this

we

called the delegation that

the Pnesident to attend the inaugunation of

was sont

of the way ahead.
UNCLASS

I FIED

descnibed

 113

UNCLASS

And we have,

1

I FIED

in fact, as I said, the goal had been to invite

2

Zelensky and have an 0va1 Office meeting before the JuIy panliamentany

3

elections. That didn't happen.

4

would now be seeking a noncareen ambassadonial candidate.

The idea had been

to -- that

thene

6

is still undenway. So that is not quite thene yet
is my undenstanding. I think that's been handled by Counselon

7

Bnechbuhl and othens.

5

That pnocess

And

8
9

I

do undenstand

and othens, Uknaine has

in

11

the gas flow.
And, of counse,

t2

on the enengy

fully

side, with help

stocked up to meet

its

fnom expents

winten gas needs

to get through the winten should the Russians try to tunn off

10

onden

that

I think it's

wonth saying

13

this

t4

fon countering conruption and moving fonward,

15

thnough oun vanious aid prognams.

new government and Zelensky on

that

oun goal

is

engaging

the nefonms, continuing the
much

pness

of that accomplished

BY MR. CASTOR:

16

19

a Ambassadon Taylon, how long is his posting expected to last?
A I'm hesitating because I do not necall if there was a finite
date to it. One answen, which would be connect, would be upon the

70

appointment

t7
18

I

27

of

an Ambassador, since he

would have to go back

is

to check.

I

not Ambassadon, he's Change.
Thene may be a sont

22

parameter, possibly extendable, but

23

administnative detail and I don't neca}l.

a

24
25

a

Do

you know

if

would have

of

1-yean

to double-check the

thene's any effonts ongoing at pnesent to pick

penmanent Ambassadon?
UNCLASS I

FIED

 UNCLASS

7t4

IF]ED

4

A Yes. I'm sonny if I wasn't cLean. That is an ongoing
pnocess. And I believe, having talked to the Counselon, Bnechbuhl,
who I think has sont have been speanheading that, they ane nanrowing
down on names. I know he and I had one meeting whene he floated a numben

5

of

6

of the

L

2
3

7
8

9
10

names

that

names

in thein discussion,

had emenged

I

was

a Okay.

So

some

of

whom

I

was

-- some

familian with.

if

a

name emenges

in the next sevenal months, we

shouldn't be sunpnised?

A Connect. I think that's fain to say, yes.
a You mentioned this morning a meeting that you had aften Manch

11

2Lst, you had a meeting with the Deputy Chief of Mission of the

L2

Ukrainians

13

L4
15
16
77
18

?

A 0n March 21st, conrect.
a 21st, night. And then when Ambassadon

Chalyy netunned to

Washington, you met with him?

A
a

0n Manch 26th, correct.
Wene

you aware

against candidate

that duning the

campaign he had been outspoken

Tnump?

2\

A No, sin, I was not awane of that.
a Okay. He wnote an op-ed duning the 2016 election peniod,
in August, critical of candidate Tnump, and that's something you'ne

22

not familiar with?

19

20

23

24
25

A No, sir.
a Okay. Is that unusual fon a sitting
A He's not the U.S. Ambassadon.
UNCLASS] FIED

U.S. Ambassadon --

 115

UNCLASS

a I'm sonny.

1

2

A

sitting

IFIED

Uknainian Ambassadon

to the U.S. I

apologize.

3

A I neally couldn't say. I

4

a

Can you

think of a time

don't

when

the sitting

Ambassadon

to the

7

in the U.S. election fon President?
A Oh, I can think of instances centainly in Eunope, I was
covening duning the 2016 election, whene centain political figunes,

8

pnime

9

essentially --

5

6

10

U.S. has taken on a candidate

fon

A
was

Yes,

I

doesn't

had heand

not a fan of

a
best

come

that quite negulanly, that the

Pnesident

Uknaine.

And what had you heand and who had you heand

it

from, to the

of youn necollection?

A I

L7

had

heand

as

this started, when I
hit with this

18

anniving Manch 18th and was sont of

19

pness about Ambassadon Yovanovitch,

20

that

2t

out thene, within that discussion.

22

But

skepticisms about Uknaine and thein connuption envinonment?

15
15

in oun elections.

to mind, I centainly can't say.
a Did you even have an awaneness of some of the Pnesident's

13

t4

endonsed

endonsed one candidate on anothen

ambassadons, one

11
L2

ministers fnom diffenent countries,

Geonge Kent descnibed, which

And

I think it

certainly his attonney's

24

genenal view

25

Ambassadon Sondland

was

deluge of the negative

pnetty much captune most of what

commentany,

that had been given to
that I

it

essentially the foun narnatives

was clean fnom some

23

came and

of his own statements

that

he was

not

Volker

centainly the media

UNCLASSIFIED

on tweets,

-- I think the

me fnom Ambassadon

sensed fnom

was

and

covenage,

 UNCLASS

115

I FIED

big fan of Uknaine. And from the meeting

I

that the Pnesident

2

that the delegation had, they said, you know, he's not a big fan of

3

Uknaine.

Did Ambassadon Volken even communicate with you about his

a

4

was not a

that Mn. Giuliani

5

concenns

5

nannative

may have been

amplifying a negative

to the Pnesident?

7

A

Yes.

8

a

And Ambassadon

Volker's engagement subsequently with

Mn.

1t

try to assuage those concenns?
A I think that is centainly what I took away from that, that
he was going to -- because I do necall him telling me, I can't say

t2

specifically

13

to

9
10

Giuliani

in

was

pant to

when,

that, wel1, he was going to

neach out

to

on was going

74

I think Ambassadon Volken felt that thene
was this veny good stony to teIl about Pnesident Zelensky and a new

15

chapten

15

some

77

Mn.

speak

in Uknaine.

of that,

a

And

that

was

his goal,

was

to hopefully take

away

what we sensed was a veny negative stneam coming fnom

What was your

on his campaign

A

20

As

21.

that

22

statement

23

you want

24

the

25

And

Giuliani to the Pnesident.

18
19

to Giuliani.

I

he gained

of anticorruption?

nead mone about him,

in the electonate

it

was

seemed

impnessive.

intenesting and

The suppont

I think a stnong

that he didn't win by a hair on a nose on whateven cliche

to use.

finst

outlook on Pnesident Zelensky as he was elected

He had a

fainly

stnong and nesounding mandate fnom

nound and then underscored

Then thene was

a

at the second round.

lot of question, weIl, we'1I see what happens
UNCLASS I EIED

 UNCLASS

t

in the

panliamentany elections because they may not

3

support. But in fact they did.
I met him, albeit veny bniefly, it

4

Uknaine since

5

Ambassadon Sondland hosted

6

veny bniefly and his

2

7
8
9
10

tt7

] FIED

was

neflect the

same

his finst tnip outside of

his inauguration. You'ne familian with the dinner that

in Bnussels,

wife.

And he

and

I was thene.

So

I met him

seemed stnuck me as smant and

of leaden, a new
generation, I think, is a fain chanactenization of leaden in Uknaine.
a And he's genuinely interested in the Uknainian people and
pnagmatic, young, a diffenent, very diffenent kind

not himself,

A I

11

was

that youn impnession?

do believe so,

yes.

He made veny

clean at that dinnen in

L4

to all of those gathened, including
other leadens who I mentioned eanlier, that his pnionity as he had
campaigned was to try to bning an end to the war in the east, which,

15

as you know, has taken mone than t3,OO0 Uknainian

lives

16

to disnupt lives and economic potential thene.

And

77

genuine about that.

L2
13

what he was saying

a

18

So he

19

money fnom

20

some

27
22
23

to us,

saying

and continues

I think he's

wasn't nunning fon Pnesident to get nich and to steal

the govennment and to do all those connupt things that

maybe

othen leadens have been accused of?

A

That was not my impnession, but

so I don't

a

I

can

't - - I 've met him twice,

-- that was not my impnession.

But the infonmation that you've heand fnom the

field,

and

24

fnom DAS Kent and Ambassador Taylon, Ambassadon Sondland, Ambassadon

25

Vo1ken, you'ne encounaged by Pnesident Zelensky?
UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS I

118

FIED

2

A Yes. And that was the bnoad consensus that the expents wene
bniefing me, is this is -- we've got this new Pnesident with a ful1

3

mandate and we'ne going

4

goal, you know, Uknaine, and offer U.S. fniendship. Obviously

5

done

6

success, and

7

a

1

oun best

to

wonk

Mn.

9

have

with him and suppont

this with pnevious governments, too, mone on less -So

that, of counse, nemains
to the extent

by

Ambassador Vo1ken had

to

we had

mone and

less

engage mone with

Depantment

liked, ultimately are you comfortable Ambassador

to do the right

oun

definition work in progress.

Giuliani than a lot of tnaditional State

8

10

to

officials

would

Volken was tnying

thing?

16

A Yeah. I don't know that I can chanactenize what people would
have liked on not in regands to that. It centainly was -- I had neven
had any contact with Mn. Giuliani. I do believe that what Kunt was
doing, I mean broadly, was a veny good-faith effont to move us fonwand
on this policy. And I think he was neaching out thene to try to, as
I described alneady, telI the good story that thene is to te1I with

L7

the hope that that would get Mn. Giuliani to a diffenent place in tenms

18

of

t7
L2
13
74
15

what he was saying about Uknaine.

19

a

And Ambassadon VoIken had developed stnong nelationships

some

of the key people close to Zelensky. Is that something you're

20

with

27

awane of?

I

nattle off

23

of key
officials that he engaged with and r couldn't pnobably. I just,

24

know, 50 countnies and

22

25

A

a

Bnoad1y.

mean, Kunt could

I --

Sure.
UNCLASS

IFIED

names

you

 119

UNCLASS

1

A --

2

A

3

4
5

6
7

8
9
10

you know.

When

he nesigned at the end

of Septemben,

was

that a loss

to the Depantment?

A Yes, I believe it was.
a Was there any effont to tny to convince him to stay?
A I have had no contact with him othen than to wish him well
on his wedding day, which I was unable to attend due to tnavel. And
I can't speak fon anybody else.
a We were almost able to wish him well on his wedding day as
he was hene.

A

11

t2

] FIED

We

were

Unfontunately,

I

--

my

was on

wife and I were invited to his

official tnavel again,

a I think when we spoke in the finst

13

so

wedding.

I couldn't

nound you

go.

identified

some

t4

communications you had with Ambassadon Sondland. Wene thene any othen

15

communications

16

peniod

L7

of

that you had with Ambassadon

of July 18th

and September 11th when

being held up, that you can

Sondland duning the time

the aid was in the pnocess

nememben?

19

A Yeah. I'm sune I did because that's a pnetty big peniod of
time and Gondon was in or out. TeIl me the dates that you ane

20

nefenencing again?

18

a
A
a

2L
22
23

24
25

came

July L8th is
The

hold,

And

it

when

the aid was initially subject to the hold.

yeah.

was released

in Septemben 11th thnough 12th.

News

on Septemben 1Lth and the State Depantment

A Yeah. Because the panliamentany elections in Ukraine wene
UNCLASS I

FIED

 UNCLASS

L20

I FIED

7

the 21st, and, of counse, the Pnesident and Zelensky had a phone call

2

on

3

was

4
5

6
7

8
9

the 25th, as you all

a

phone

call. I

know

was

now.

And

I

do necall knowing

that thene

not on that phone call or pant of it.

a Did you get a neadout of that phone call fnom anybody?
A I know Kunt sent me a WhatsApp message and just said: Great
POTUS-Ze call.
POTUS-Ze -- we nefenned to him as Ze, Z-e
a Anyone else?
A So, again, back to youn specific question about Gondon
Sondland, you know, I saw him hene and thene at things he would be in

10

Washington once

11

thene wene also

in

a while on we would be

in occasional touch,

because

t4

lots of othen issues with the Eunopean Union. The
pnesidency was changing, of course, in the summen to Finland, fnom
Romania to Finland. We did some things thene.
Yeah, Gondon's pnetty enengetic and active. So I can't specify

15

when and

16

occasionally.

17

a

72
13

exactly

whene

Duning

I

may have bumped

into him, but we wene in touch

that time period, what did you see as the likely

18

outcome? Did you think the aid was ultimately going to be permanently

79

held up and not delivened on did you think thene was a way out?

20

A I

was focused

to the extent that it would come up to

of --

thene wene two

sides.

me,

I

27

mean, eveny day we'd kind

22

thene was the assistance coondinaton saying evenything

is held

23

today's instnuction is you may nelease 2 pencent or thene

wene vanious

24

aspects.

25

pursuing the

On

the Uknaine specifically,
PCC

pnocess, as

it

and

was, "Any news?" And we wene

I said, to hopefully

UNCLASS I

Thene was one,

FIED

push forwand

a

 UNCLASS

t

t2t

I FIED

decision on that.
And

2

I

I don't

do have hene a note

that I

had a

call

with

5

I don't nememben anything
specific about that. I think it may have also had to do with -- that
was anound the time I had gone on the -- I went on the 31st to the PCC

6

about othen aspects

3

4

7

8
9
10

Ambassadon Sondland on

the 30th of July, but

of Uknaine.

a If the aid was not going to be delivered thene would have
to be some sort of official pnocess, whethen that's nescission on
nepnognamming. Do you know if eithen of those effonts even got
undenway

?

A I do not. I just

11

nememben

L2

who was focused and bnought

13

even though the focus

1,4

on the assistance, we need

15

forwand on

16

mandate

t7

So

18
19

20
27
22

I

this.

of that

it

up

PCC

the convensation with Launa Coopen

at the

was not

PCC

I

attended on the 31st,

the assistance. But she said

-- we at DOD have to intend to keep moving

Because, you know, they had a sepanate

legislative

to do that.
we continued

to

be

hopeful, I know, in terms of the

PCC

pnocess.

alneady mentioned the expectation was hopefully thene would be

a

-- a principal small gnoup that could help fonce the decision.
The genenal idea that I necall was that if it's Mn. Mulvoney -- excuse
me, Mulvaney -- blocking we need to get to that point and then have
a neal decision taken nather than this unknowing.
small

24

a Okay. And fon the pnincipals that wene involved in that
decision, was it the hope that this would get nesolved and the aid would

25

be neleased?

23

UNCLASS

I FIED

 722

UNCLASSIFIED

A I don't know that fon a fact. It

L

2

was

centainly oun policy,

so that was my --

a Okay.
A -- my undenstanding.

3

4

But

I can't speak -- I did not discuss

10

it with the Secnetany.
a Okay. Wene you genuinely concerned that the aid would be
not not delivened?
A I was focusing on tnying to get thene. So I think I
resenved -- you know, it's 1ike, well, we've got time, we've got to,
you know, we'11 keep hoping. Thene was that and it was a question of

11

the White

5

6
7

8
9

a

12

House meeting whene
How

unusual

is it

is this

this extremely

74

to withstand and wonk thnough?

16

unusual on

A I'm not sune I
mean,

news on.

fon these types of holdups to occur?

13

15

things we wene hoping fon

something

could chanactenize

t^Jas

that the system was built

it panticulanly we11. I

again, I've been back and focusing on these bnoad issues of -- you

19

is one element in the European AOR. I've been back
for a couple of months. So I don't think I could -MR. MEADOWS: Can I ask it a diffenent way then? Obviously

20

you'ne involved with a

2t

countnies whene aid has been held up that you'ne awane of?

77
18

know, assistance

tot of

othen aid components. Ane thene othen

REEKER: YCS.

22

AMBASSADOR

23

MR. MEADOWS: Unden youn Pontfolio?

24

AMBASSADOR

25

MR. MEADOWS: Mone

REEKER:

YES.

than

ANd WE WCNC --

one?

UNCLASS

IFIED

 t

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

I think,

123

I FIED

UNCLASS

as

I

descnibed, there was a peniod

held up and then we would get instnuctions that,

2

whene evenything was

3

as I necall, you know, they ane wene allowed to --

4

MR. MEADOWS: Dnibble

5

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

it

out?

That's a good descniption I think. Again,

10

it's not a process I'm an expent on.
MR. MEADOWS: Right. So you'ne saying that unden your pontfolio
all foneign aid was held up. Is that what you'ne saying?
AMBASSADOR REEKER: Fon a bnief peniod thene wene -- I thought
I had made a note of that -- a few days whene -- whene the assistance

LL

was I

5
7
8
9

t2

want

to try to

Thene was an

OMB

lifted

be cornect and

pause on

on August

all

funds

specific.

that

came

HoId on 1 sec.

into effect

on August

9th. At that point OMB -- and, again,

13

3nd and was

t4

I'm neading fnom what my staff

15

coondinaton's

passed

office in recalling,

to

me fnom

because

I

the assistance

asked them about

t7

this -- at that point OMB imposed nestnictions on how much we could
obligate at any time. So fnom the 3nd to the 9th. And then they

18

lifted,

16

23

it, sir, dnibbled out.
I necall specifically that Anmenia was one. There was a $9.2
million budget thene and I, on a tnip to Tbilisi, Geongia, I met with
oun Ambassadon to Anmenia, who had tnaveled to Tbllisi, and one of hen
concenns was, again, we ane getting down toward the end of the fiscal
yean, we neally want -- you know, again, we talk about Uknaine, but

24

thene wene so many othen things happening acnoss the AOR. One was

25

Anmenia, whene thene was a new government,

19

20

2t
22

but that was when they, as you descnibed

UNCLASS I EIED

that

we wene

tnying to

see

 L24

UNCLASSI FIED

L

2
3

4
5

6

if that govennment

would be mone nesponsive.

MR. MEADOWS: So what

you're saying is the aid

into -AMBASSADOR REEKER: No, it was being held up in this bnoad OMB
nestniction. It had nothing to do with the govennment. Oun
Ambassador was expnessing to me concenns
in Anmenia because of a new govennment that

7

MR. MEADOI^IS: Because

8

AMBASSADOR

9

was being held up

pnognams

going.

REEKER:
And

it

--

was

a

had come

new govennment.

because we

neally want to get these

new

if can't get the money, then our stnategy and oun

10

policy goals ane not thene.

fi

MR. MEADOWS: So

are you awane of any U.S.-Uknainian policy

72

dinective fnom the State Depantment's point of view that's not being

13

implemented

1.4

right

AMBASSADOR

now?

REEKER:

I'm tnying to think bnoadly.

15

technicalty, I

16

House. But that's not to saY - -

guess

that Pnesident Zelensky

17

MR. MEADOWS: Yeah,

18

AMBASSADOR

19

MR. MEADOWS:

had not come

We11,

to the

trJhite

but that's not a bnoad policy.

REEKER: No,

I

agnee

with

you.

I'm just saying that fnom a

bnoad policy

21

initiatives, I was on Foneign Affains
fon a numben of yeans, you put out initiatives, that this is oun

22

Uknaine-U.S. on our U.S. -Uknaine policy.

20

standpoint, because you put out

REEKER: Uh-hUh.

23

AMBASSADOR

24

MR. MEADOWS: And

25

U.S.-Uknaine

I

guess what

I'm saying is, is thene

policy initiative that's decided at your 1eve1
UNCLASS

I FIED

any

and above

 t25

UNCLASS I EIED

3

that's not being deployed night now?
AMBASSADOR REEKER: At this point, I'm not awane of any, but I
would have to go back and ask if thene wene centain initiatives that

4

ane

1

2

fon one neason on anothen -MR. MEADOWS: But Mn. Kent has

5

6

not naised anything with you, to

your knowledgei
AMBASSADOR

7

REEKER: Nothing comes

-- you know, I'd

8

wouldn't

9

if thene's something thene.

have

10

MR. MEADOWS: Thank you.

11

Steve.

to mind, sin, but I

to go back and double-check on ask him

BY MR. CASTOR:

t2

a

13

Since the funds wene neleased on Septemben 11th on 12th, have

74

the othen aspects of the U.S.-Uknainian policies

15

as you would like?

A I think oun engagement once those funds wene neleased,

16
L7

that

18

mission

19

cunnent issue sunnounding Uknaine has made it a

20

But

2t

enengy

22

military

23

been moving fonwand

was an impontant

is

busy and

step, under

active. I

Ambassadon

and

Taylon's feadenship the

would say that the cunrent focus, the

little

mone

difficult.

I think oun team is wonking away on all of the diffenent stnands,
divensification,

One

enengy secunity

in

tenms

of the stockpiling,

neforms.

of things I

24

wonking on was an

25

system

in the

know Ambassadon Volken was

antitnust thing,

biggen tenm, and

of

how do we

hopeful

to

stant

deal with the oliganchy

counse now Ambassadon Volken

UNCLASS

IEIED

is

no

 UNCLASS

1

longer on the account.

a
A

2
3

4
5

6

126

] FIED

Who

is

penforming

his duties?

-- is it
3 weeks at this point? I can't nemember the date when he left.
a His last day I think was the 27th of September.
A Was while we wene in ltaly, yeah. So 3 weeks, 4 maybe.
So we've looked

Geonge Kent remains

7

at that,

and

fon now, in the last

the pnimary penson in discussions with Ulnich

discussed whethen we would

-- whethen the Secnetany on

8

Brechbuhl.

9

the Pnesident would want to appoint another Special Repnesentative

on

I don't think thene is a decision pen se.

We

We

10

centain -- at this point

11

coven

\2

obviously, with the Change, the

13

and desks as appnopniate, myself,

t4

need

it

thnough the negulan channels now that we have, the embassy,

if

IeveIs, office dinectons

thene's meetings that one would

to go to fon some neason.
The Europeans have asked

15

DAS, and lowen

I

this too:

have pointed pnimarily

Hey, who

to

is

oun

point

penson

Kent, but at the

15

on Ukraine?

t7

political directon level, then David Hale would be the appnopniate guy.

a

18

Wene you

19

that

20

as a vehicle

21.

22
23

24
25

tnacking

some

of the events nelated to the statement

Ambassador Volken was wonking

A I

Geonge

on, wonking with the Uknainians,

to demonstnate thein --

necalL Gondon

talking about I think he used the

tenm

"scniptr" but I wasn't particulanly tnacking it.

a
A

Okay.

They wene

the team in

change

-- you know, again, it

was Gordon, and

that wene moving fonwand on this.
UNCLASS I

FIED

Kunt, Penny,

And

I

would

 127

UNCLASS

I FIED

3

ask: Do we have a date yet fon the meeting on how is this
going? But I wasn't tnacking the day-to-day appnoach on that.
a Thene wene a handful on a couple of diffenent vehicles

4

discussed possibly fon the Uknainians

5

sufficiently

6

potentially a statement, the othen that has been talked about is a TV

7

interview

7

2

occasionally

committed

whene

to

demonstnate

to anticonnuption effonts.

that they wene

One was

the Pnesident would --

15

A I've seen nefenence to those. I was not tracking that
a Okay. So you don't have
A -- on involved at my IeveI, no.
a So nobody engaged you -A No, again -as that was in -a
A I think Gordon may have neferenced that we'ne wonking with
Zelensky, Volodymyn, as he called him. But I just don't know

16

gnanulanity on that.

8
9
10
11
L2
13

14

a

L7

18

When he mentioned

on did you think

it

was

that to you, did it give you any concerns

just ordinany effont to achieve --

20

A You know, these wene the guys that were tasked with this wonk.
This is what I inhenited. This is what we had, the stnuctune moving

2L

fonwand, with the suppont

22

on

19

23

this stuff. It

was

And, you know, as

of the Secnetary

and

the Pnesident, to

wonk

innegulan. We've alneady established that.

all

these things

come

togethen, you know, I often

24

wondened I would ask regulanly, when's the meeting? lust the

25

update.
UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS I

L28

FIED

3

is they've got this. I mean, Kunt Volken is an
absolute pnofessional who I know, I was very confident was veny
dedicated to seeing Uknaine policy thnough. He took this nole veny

4

seniously. You know, he was an unpaid special

5

doing

1

2

6
7
8
9

I think

this.

my

view

He was

govennment employee

extnemely admired by othen European diplomats both

in capitals, for his nesponse and his bniefings.
And so I was very comfontable with that. And Gordon, I knew, was, you
know, was acting on behalf of the Pnesident and the Secretany.
a Okay. We have a little bit of time left before oun nound
in

Washington, but

10

ends. I want to

11

answen ask you some questions

make sune

that our

Membens have

if they

an oppontunity to

have any.

12

Mn. Penny.

13

MR. PERRY: Thank you.

L4

Thanks, Ambassadon, fon your senvice and fon youn patience hene

15

today.

In the last

16

nound thene was some convensation about Uknaine

t7

desining a meeting with the Pnesident of the United States, that it

18

would bode

19

but the Pnesident of Uknaine would desire it fon his own reasons,

20

whateven

well

they

and

may

that they desined it.

be.

REEKER: YES.

AMBASSADOR

22

MR. PERRY: Would you

is it

it,

Would you agnee on that?

2L

23

Not only did we desine

also agnee that -- I think you

Manch, Manch 17th on something
REEKER: 18th was my

24

AvIBASSADOR

25

MR. PERRY:

--

finst

day.

18th, night, by the evening.
UNCLASS I

showed up

FlED

And

the Pnesidential

 UNCLASS I

1

2
3

4

election

was

in

L29

FIED

May?

REEKER:

AMBASSADOR

Connect.

21st I think was the finst

May

nound.

Right,

MR. PERRY:

May

21st.

But would

it also be in the Uknaine

5

President's best intenest to have that meeting pnion to the 21st, which

6

is thein

parllamentany election?

8

No. I'm sonry, Congnessman, thene's
some - - some of that's not conrect. So the finst nound of the Uknainian

9

Pnesidential election was Manch 31st.

7

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

10

MR. PERRY: Right.

11

AMBASSADOR

of the Pnesidential
it was the 20 -- hene it is,

REEKER: The second nound

laten on oun Easten,

L2

election

13

2Lst of Apnil. And the Uknainian govennment elections were then --

was 3 weeks

t4

MR. PERRY:

15

AMBASSADOR

16
77
18
19

20
27

July 21st.

REEKER:

July 21st, thank you. Yes, connect,

panliamentany.
MR. PERRY: So

advantageous

to the

AMBASSADOR

getting a meeting pnior to July 21st would
new Pnesident

of

Uknaine?

REEKER: That had been

the neadout I got going

fonwand

the goal

aften the

MR. PERRY: That would be one

be

May

when

I talked

about

--

of his considenations fon wanting

23

it also could be a considenation fon the United States
to maybe hold off beyond the 21st to not influence the Uknainian

24

panliamentany election.

22

25

a meeting, but

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

That's a neasonable
UNCLASS

I FIED

 L

MR. PERRY: Could

2

AMBASSADOR

be, night, could

REEKER:

centainly what Kunt was wonking towand,

4

eanly befone that election, but he

5

strongly. It

17th.

7

anound lune

8

negarding Ukraine?

was

to tny to get this

came thnough

meeting

the election quite

a validation of his Pnesidential victony.

MR. PERRY: Now, Ambassador

5

be?

Yeah. I mean, I think that the idea,

3

was

130

FIED

UNCLASS I

Woutd he

Taylor, he showed up in country

talk to

you about any

of his

concenns

10

little contact with Ambassadon
Taylor. He talked to Ulnich Bnechbuhl, I know, on a fainly negular

11

basis and his main intenlocutor in Washington would have been

t2

Kent.

9

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

MR. PERRY: Geonge

13

I

had veny

Geonge

Kent, night.

15

-- I mean, you had heand -- had you heand prion to seeing
his statement that he wanted to know that the policy would stay the

16

same

L4

Did you

on he would not take the job?
AMBASSADOR

77

Yes. I

REEKER:

mean,

that

his willingness to considen it, which

was

19

him when he had indicated

20

May

21.

State.

22

wene

So

I

that

knew him

concenn and
met

something he talked about fnom the beginning

And

a

of the finst time I

18

2nd.

was

a little

had continued

to

bit

fnom years past when he was at

be a concern and he was

satisfied

UNCLASSl FIED

-- his concenns

 131

UNCLASS

1

I EIED

[3:30 p.m.]
BY MR. PERRY:

2

6

a Right.
A -- by the meeting with the Secnetany on the 20th -- I want
to make sune I get it -- the 28th of May.
a And pnion to the publication of the phone call between the

7

President of the United States and Pnesident Zelensky, did

8

Taylor ever call you to expness his concenns that thene wasn't

9

meeting, on that funding was being --

3

4
5

11

A No, sin. f'm not the channel fon Ambassadon
a So he neven talked to you about that?

72

A

10

13
L4
15
16

t7
18

Not

to

my

the assistance, the secunity assistance, wouldn't be forthcoming?

A I don't believe I
on what can we do

Okay.

THE CHAIRMAN: Why

nesume

at

4:@O o'

even said

to tny to

20

break

this

was, you know, focused

impasse.

don't we take a half-an-houn lunch bneak and

clock.
REEKER: Sounds good

AMBASSADOR

23

THE CHAIRIvIAN: We should

don't

that. I

Thank you.

22

25

Taylon.

a And he neven did nesign, did he?
A No, no. In fact, he is back in Kyiv now.
a Did you ever believe on teII anyone that you believed that

a

24

a

necollection.

19

2L

Ambassadon

because we

still

to

me.

tny to be pnompt. So that --

have a long aftennoon ahead

IRecess. ]
UNCLASS

] FIED

of

us.

we

 132

IFIED

UNCLASS

L

14:03 p.m.l

2

THE CHAIRMAN:

3

Minonity counsel asked you about a bnief suspension of aid by OMB,

4

which

5

night

I think

REEKER: Yes,

that's

that's --

8

assistance coondinaton had said, and then

9

And then

dnibbled out

was

it

me. I'm

is,

sonny,

based on what

my

was completely suspended.

being -- I believe, as the

Congnessman

by bit.

that

with nespect to a bnoad

was

nange

of

foneign assistance?
REEKER: ThAt'S

13

AMBASSADOR

74

THE CHAIRMAN:

15

bit

it

THE CHAIRMAN: Now,

LI
L2

--

aften August 9th,

excuse

what my necollection

Mn. Chainman. Yes,

said

9th. Is that

?

7

10

necond.

you said was between August 3nd and August

AMBASSADOR

6

Let's go back on the

CONNCCt.

assistance, that actually took place
AMBASSADoR

16

of the Uknaine military

But the suspension

REEKER: The date

in

Ju1y, did

it

not?

that that began, on that that

came

18

I believe. That was the sub-PCC, which
has been nefenned to. I was traveling. I wouldn't go to a sub-PCC

19

nonmally anyway, but

I

20

it

that time

2t

the tenm "hold" was used.

22

fnom. The speculation, centainly,

23

Mn. Mulvaney.

77

to light

was

night

the 18th of JuIy,

anound

believe that's what othens have nefenenced.

THE CHAIRMAN: And

24
25

was

some

I

was advised

Nobody was

that thene is a --

quite

was

sune where

that this

it

Septemben.

UNCLASS

I FIED

I think

was coming

was coming fnom

the fneeze in Uknaine aid wasn't

point in mid-to-late

And

lifted until

 133

UNCLASS I EIED

AMBASSADOR

2

THE CHAIRMAN: So

3

bnief intenlude fon a

4

August 9th?
AMBASSADOR

5

this is quite

mone genenal

REEKER:

thing,

7

with the Geongia aid,

8

appnopniated

to

and

hold between August 3rd

The Uknaine

11

an obligation unden law

keep

THE CHAIRMAN: So

I

know

that's

is

was

a panticular

a unique thing, along

why my DOD colleague was

AMBASSADOR

we have

to move fonwand with this.
at that meeting a concern

she on othens naised

of the legality of withholding that

14

aid

and

this moving. He said, absent some explanation,

anxious

13

distinct from the

quite sepanately.

10

L2

sin.

it is, to my understanding, it is

because

It is legislated,

9

Yes.

sepanate and

then, of course, the Uknaine aid

6

and

1lth, I believe,

REEKER: Septemben

L

aid?

REEKER: Not being an expent on the tenm

"IegaIity,"

16

I think that's a fair -- a fair descniption. I know -- again, this
is DOD, so I don't want to speak fon them, but that was -- my impnession

t7

was

18

that by law.

15

19

but

that they

22

to

do

Thank you, Mn. Chainman. Ambassadon Reeken, we're going

to

move fonwand because

THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Goldman.
BY MR. GOLDMAN:

20
2L

they wene requined to

needed

a
tny to

move thnough.

I'm sonny,

23

THE CHAIRMAN:

24

You made refenence eanLien

25

I

have one mone question,

in

about Ambassadon Sondland nefenning
UNCLASS

nesponse

could.

to the minonity questions

to a scnipt.
I FIED

if I

Can you

teII

us what

 UNCLASS I

1

L34

FIED

you meant by that?
AMBASSADOR

2

REEKER:

I

neca1l

that

he was wonking

with

Zelensky

4

to -- to wonk, you know, as he pnepared fon phone calls and engagement
with the President towand this meeting, he had sont of a scnipt. That's

5

how he described

3

it.

7

I don't know the specifics of what he meant by that, but he
descnibed it as a scnipt fon Volodymyn to help him as we move fonwand

8

in this.

6

THE

9
10

to

11

CHAIRMAN: So this was a scnipt

that

Sondland had fon Zelensky

call with the Pnesident?
AMBASSADOR REEKER: Again, I couldn't say that that

use

in the

phone

t2

specifically to that,

13

is

t4

wonking

15

things that

16

of

oun

script

on more bnoadly, as a

was

scnipt fon Zelensky.

Hene

moving fonwand. You know, Gondon was veny involved

dinectly with Zelensky to tny to
we had

-- they

had discussed

move fonwand

on

all of

aften the meeting of the

the

23nd

May.

20

if this was a scnipt aften the call
to -- fon him to use publicly in onden to get a White House meeting?
AvIBASSADOR REEKER: I don't know, sin.
THE CHAIRMAN: And how did it come to youn attention? Did

27

Ambassadon Sondland use

t7
18
19

22
23

24
25

THE CHAIRMAN: On do

you know

in a convensation with you?
AMBASSADOR REEKER: Yes, and necall, and I couldn't tell you if
it was in a phone call on something. He is like, I'm working with -- and
I'm panaphnasing hene. I cannot quote specifically, but I necall:
I'm wonking with Volodymyr. We have got a scnipt moving fonwand. I
that

tenm

UNCLASS

I FIED

 135

UNCLASS] FIED

1

2

just

nememben
THE

the tenm "scnipt.

CHAIRMAN: And do you necall what timefname you had

3

and would nefenence

4

of the caII?

5

6
7

8
9

to

youn calendan assist you

REEKER:

AMBASSADOR

because

I talked to

Gondon hene, thene.
THE

CHAIRMAN:

Is there any mention of this in youn documents that

would nefnesh youn necollection?
AMBASSADOR

REEKER: Not

-- oo, ro, sir, not that I

THE CHAIRMAN: MN. GOIdMAN.

11

BY MR. GOLDMAN:

a

Thank

13

of nefenence in

t4

Sondland

15

in finding the date

It wouldn't, I'm afnaid,

10

L2

that cal1,

you.

So

just to follow

tenms of the

up on

this,

necall.

you have no fname

timing of this convensation with

Ambassadon

?

A I

mean,

I

had convensations

with

Ambassadon Sondland oven

22

things. He was the U.S. Ambassadon to the EU, so
we had lots of things to talk about. Hene and thene, he was in
Washington a couple of times. I saw him a couple of times in Eunope.
a Right. But you don't know, in tenms of when oven the last
6 months, this convensation about a scnipt may have occunred?
A It was certainly since -- since the elections, since
Pnesident Zelensky was in office, and post the 23nd of May, in light

23

of the sont of strategy, the way fonwand that

16
L7

18
19

20

2t

24
25

time about a tot of

a
scnipt to

Do you know what

wonk

the context was?

Kunt Volken had nead up.

If

he

said: I've got a

with Pnesident Zelensky, on he called him VolodYnYr,
UNCLASS

] FIED

 UNCLASS

L

you

2

135

I FIED

said. Do you know what the context of that scnipt was fon?
A Exactly as I tnied to descnibe to the chainman. I just
the use of the wond "scnipt" as in Gondon,

3

rememben

4

was

5

political

6

1eve1, including Pnesident Ze1ensky.

wonking. He had always said he would take

Ambassadon Sondland,

--

he was sont

of

the

lead fon oun engagement with the Uknainians at the highest

a I don't want to go back thnough all of the ye11ow tabs, but

7

8

I

9

the

do want

to

nefen back

to a few things that you nead fnom them.

And

finst one that you refenred to was a Manch 26th email that nelated
infonmation fnom Uknainian jounnalists in which, at some point,

10

some

LT

you read

t2

had

that thene

told

was a nefenence

Uknainians

13

Do you

74

A

to the fact that Giuliani,

that he nepresent the

I

believe,

Pnesident.

necaIl that?

Yes,

I necall being told that by my team. I believe,

by Mn.

15

Kent, Geonge Kent, based on the convensations he was having with

16

jounnalists.
Wel1, how would one descnibe

t7
18

nelating to him at

19

where

an event he was

some

it? lounnalists in the know,

attending in Cambridge, talking about

20

all of this was coming fnom. We wene sti1l in those weeks -- and
to a degnee, we still ane -- what was genenating, what generated this

21

deluge

22

Yovanovitch, an outstanding, you know, pnofessional diplomat, and just

23

24
25

of stonies, false stonies, accusations, thneats against

Masha

I alluded to sevenal times, Geonge and
his team had been pulling togethen all of this, had identified kind
of aIl of these stonies seemed to -- seemed to distill into foun -- four
a

tennific

human

being.

And as

UNCLASS I

FIED

 737

UNCLASS

1

narratives.

a I

2

They punsue one on

I FIED

the othen, on a combination of

I just wanted to focus on the fact that

undenstand. But

3

the Uknainians undenstood, on at least the infonmation that

4

gave

5

that the Uknainian officials

6

the Pnesident of the United States?

7

8
9

to

wene

told that Rudy Giuliani

Now, and as DAS Kent was able

to flesh out these foun

that you described, I believe you said that two of
investigation nelated to the Bidens and the

11

investigation nelated to the

t2

accunate

t4
L5
16

t7

nepnesents

Connect.

10

13

DAS Kent

that he had with Uknainian sounces, is

you from intenactions

A
a

them.

2016

stnands

them included

an

Bunisma company, and an

election in

some

fashion. Is that

?

A That's right. And I'm happy to nefen.
a No, I don't want you to because othenwise we will be hene
all night. So, we ane tnying to move fonwand as quickly as we can.
I just want to necap a little bit.
And

the foun stnands, as DAS Kent laid them out, and you

Apnil Lst emaiI.

then,

I think, shontly

nead,

theneaften,

18

wene fnom an

19

you had a convensation, or an email communication with Unden Secnetary

20

Hale whene he acknowledged

2L

involvement with Ukrainian policy was, quote, "innegularr" unquote.

22

Is that night?

23

24
25

to

And

you

that

Ambassadon Sondland's

A Connect.
A Now, in May, you nefenned to a Newsweek anticle about -- that
had in its title "Rudy Giuliani's Unfounded Claims." And you, am I
UNCLASS

I FIED

 138

UNCLASS

I FIED

L

conrect that you testified as you nead a May 10th email that Giuliani

2

planned

go

pness Zelensky

to

punsue these

investigations.

A That is, I believe, what the pness nepont necounted.
a Right.
A I did not know anything about Mn. Giuliani's plans myself.
a But you wene aware, at least as of neceiving that email, that

4
5

6
7

that

A

10

was Newsweek

L7

a
Rudy

publicly,

was neponted

9

12

to Kyiv to

Is that the sum and substance without being --

3

8

to

That

it

was neponted

in that

Wene

connect?

in -- I think

you nefenenced that

it

one.

you awane of a New Yonk Times

article that also addressed

Giuliani's potential trip on on about

May 9th?

18

familian. I mean, I was aware of the
pness that was neponting that, I think -- again, I don't get much
oppontunity to watch television, to be honest, but I do believe there
wene -- Giuliani himself was saying I'm going to -- on at least widely
quoted as saying he was going to Ukraine.
a But based on youn emails that you have now necited to us,

19

you noutinely neceive pness clippings nelated

20

to youn pontfolio,

13

L4
15
16
77

2L

A It

A

does sound bnoadly

At that panticulan time, because my --

of command were asking:

23

fnom, and why now?

25

And

nelevance

connect?

22

24

to issues of

Do you have any

so, again, being a week, 2

to Geonge and his team to --

supenions,

my

feel fon whene this is

weeks on

can we figune

UNCLASS I

my

FIED

chain

coming

the gnound, I was turning

all of this

out?

 UNCLASS

I couldn't

1

139

I FIED

possibly nead even all of the emails and tweets

and

2

stuff that they fonwanded up, but it

3

these foun, what they had distilled into foun seeming narnatives.

4
5

was

to give

me

an idea

of, again,

of the neason that you wene asking Mn. Kent to
compile this infonmation is that you wene getting questions fnom your

a

And pant

9

it, too, right?
A Right, and as I did, and then as I think I mentioned cleanly,
thene was a question while I was in -- tnaveling. I think I was in
Germany at the time -- to make sune that Unden Secretary Hale was

10

neceiving the night amount, you know, that he was getting what he needed

11

too, to

L2

pness on

6
7

8

superions about

keep him bnoadly abneast

this.

a Right.

13

of what was being talked about in the

to you that said that Unden
to be mone, quote, "tightly lashed up, " unquote,

And thene was an email

t4

Secnetany HaIe wanted

15

with Uknaine mattens, night?

A I believe that's what the email said without looking at it.
a So thene was a desine fon mone infonmation about what's going

L5
L7

20

in Uknaine fnom youn superions?
A What the pness was neponting. We get reponting fnom oun
embassy on an - - Embassy Kyiv is a mill that does excellent analysis

2L

and neponting.

18
19

22

on

What we wene

tnying to track in those eanly

23

all of this coming out, and whene is it

24

themes so

25

a

that

we could

at least

weeks

was: What is

coming fnom, and what ane the

be awane and know.

Of counse. That makes penfect sense. Let me show you what
UNCLASS

I F]ED

 740

UNCLASS I EIED

1

is

manked

as deposition exhibit 1.

2

IMajonity Exhibit No.

3

was manked

for identification.

l

BY MR. GOLDMAN:

4

a It is an anticle

5

6

L

from The

take a quick look at this

if

New

York Times dated May

9th. lust

you could.

15

A Uh-huh.
a Ane you familian with this anticle?
A It sounds familian. I know that I don't know Kenneth Voge1
himself, but I know his byline.
a Right. I'm not asking if you know Kenneth Vogel himself.
I'm wondening if this is familian to you because you saw it anound the
time that it was published.
A I couldn't say on May 9th. I anrived back on a, you know,
ned-eye flight fnom Baghdad and London, and went almost dinectly to

16

Masha

17

Univensity.

7

8

9
10
11
L2
13

l4

Yovanovitch's hononing cenemony at the National Defense

a Right.

18

in

youn

So

this is similar to that

email. I don't

had

20

anticle in your email as we1l, but

A

22

25

not, because I think it probably would have

this

been

a normal pness clips and we get lots of these compilations.

a

23

24

Pnobably

article that you

know whether you would have neceived

19

2t

Newsweek

this

So what was

New Yonk Times

A

the diffenence in the

Newsweek

anticle

vensus

anticle?

You would have

to ask the people that sent it to me.
UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS I

a

1

2

thind

A11

night,

because

t4t

F]ED

notably, and I

will

nead

the second

and

panagnaphs.

It says: "Mn. Giuliani

5

to tnavel to Kyiv, the
Uknainian capital in the coming days, and wants to meet with the
Nation's Pnesident-elect to unge him to punsue inquinies that allies

6

of the White

3

4

House contend could

says he plans

yield

new

information about two matters

10

of intense intenest to Mn. Trump
"One is the onigin of the special counsel's investigation into
Russia's intenfenence in the 20L6 election. The othen is the
involvement of fonmen Vice Pnesident Joseph R. Biden, Jn.'s, son in

11

a gas company owned by an Uknaine oliganch."

7
8
9

L2

Do you know which gas company that

13

A

That is Bunisma, night?

L4

a

So

1.5

Cornect

is

nefenning to?

this is consistent with what you wene heaning at the time,

?

A Can I wnite on this, on is this youns?
a I will give you anothen copy that you can wnite on.

16
L7

This

21

is consistent with what you wene heaning at the time, cornect?
A Yeah, I mean, I think this was very much the nannative that
was out thene at that time. This was aften the late Apnil
post-election. ft means Zelensky was now fuIly elected. He was the

22

2@th

23

stonies that were cinculating.

18
19

20

24
25

of

a

May would have been

Now,

inaugunated, and

this is

veny much similar

eanlien today you also -- you read, actually,

message between you and Ambassadon
UNCLASS

a WhatsApp

Bill Taylor on May 26th, whene
I FIED

 1.42

UNCLASS

I FIED

L

Ambassador Taylon neferenced something,

2

you necalI that?

3

A

Yes.

4

a

So when you neceived

5

issue.

the Giuliani-Biden

that text

Do

message fnom Ambassadon

Taylon, you undenstood what he was neferning to. Right?

8

I think the genenal idea is, this is one of
those stnands, one of those nannatives that Was veny much there. I
think Ambassadon Volken descnibed it as a distnaction fnom oun focus

9

on Uknaine and policy.

6
7

A Yeah. I

Ll

And Ambassadon Volken would have descnibed

a

10

mean,

distnaction to the policy anound this

A

72

same

time, in

it to you as a
May?

-- Bil] Taylon, that is -- was expressing his
and nesenvations about, you know, I can't take this job if
When

Bill

was

13

concenns

L4

thene's going to be a change of policy and appnoach to Uknaine. That's

15

why he wanted

16

confinmed

a

t7
18

that

19

I

to

meet

with the Secnetany. Ulnich Brechbuhl

had

that would happen and they were looking fon a date.
Right. I undenstand that. I'm just asking, when you said

Ambassadon Volken

also reitenated something along this

line - - if

can pin a time on that.

22

I said to him, Ambassadon Volken, you know, I think Bill
has got some cold feet, and I may have even shaned with him some of
the WhatsApps on messages. Hene is what BilI is concenned about. He

23

was saying,

24

moving oun

25

Giuliani, his distnaction.

20
27

A

When

yes, that's -- that's distnaction.

policy fonwand. I

mean,

UNCLASS

We need

to focus on

I think that's the, you know,

I EIED

 743

UNCLASS

1

a Right.

But

that this

I FIED

like you, Ambassadon

-- that

was

Rudy

Volken indicated

Giuliani

was fomenting

2

undenstrrod

3

intenest in these investigations at that time, night?

4
5

6

A Connect. I think that's

this

what Mn. Giuliani was saying

himself quite public1y.

a Connect. So that's

7

May 28th meeting

8

that you necall?

9

he

A

To

on May 26th, and then you go

with Secnetany Pompeo.

the best of

my

And who was

necollection,

it

was

into

at that

the

meeting

the Secnetany, of

L2

Bill Taylon; Kunt Volken joined us; Ulnich Bnechbuhl was thene;
myself; and I think George was thene, but I don't know that. And I
haven't wanted to ask him in this last week because I didn't think it

13

was appnopniate.

10
11

t4
15
16
77
18
19

counse,

a

And duning

that meeting,

was thene discussion about the

May 23nd White House meeting?

A
a

Yes.

And what do you

necall being discussed with the

Secnetany

about the May 23nd meeting?

A Kurt Volker gave a neadout of the meeting because
-- wel1, Gondon

had been

in the

May 23nd meeting, and they

--

you

20

Gondon

2L

know, the genenal tone was the Pnesident, was the inaugunal team, on

22

the Thnee Amigos -- his tenm, not mine

24

-- had come back, gone to this
bniefing, and the Pnesident was not in a good mood.
He was just unhappy about Uknaine, did not like Uknaine, and

25

expnessing a 1ot

23

of skepticism,

and then Kunt

UNCLASS

I FIED

outlined, you know, we

 1

just kept pnessing ahead

2

oppontunities.

3

to

4

given to

We

keep working on
me on

144

I FIED

UNCLASS

and saying, but Mn. Pnesident, thene ane these

have got

this.

Ze1ensky. This is a new Uknaine.

And

that

produced

We need

the neadout that Kunt

the 23rd, and was considened the

had

way fonward.

5

a Right. And it was a pnetty unanimous view fnom those who
went to the inaugunation that Zelensky was a tnue nefonmen and would

7

be good fon Uknaine, cornect?

5

A I think that is fain to say, yes.
a Did Ambassadon Volken, on -- we1I, let

8

9
10

that meeting with Secnetary

11

Giuliani

13

15

the

May 23nd meeting,

A I

know

that

did the

name Rudy

Giuliani

Rudy

Volken about

come up?

that thene was an undenstanding, centainly,

were thene

fnom Kunt

that Rudy Giuliani is feeding the Pnesident

and othens

L7

a lot of veny negative views about Uknaine.

a

At

come up?

16

18

this:

on the 28th, did the name

A I cannot say fon sune. I nea11y can't.
a In any of youn convensations with Ambassadon

72

t4

Pompeo

me ask you

Did you undenstand

And

that that was, at least, pant of the basis

20

for the Pnesident's displeasune with Uknaine?
A Yes. That's fain to say. That was my -- that was what the

27

takeaway was.

22

a

19

Did

in

any

of the

convensations nelated

23

followed that May 23rd meeting, did

24

Sondland, did anyone give you the impnession

25

Pnesident wanted them to coondinate on consult with Mn.
UNCLASS

Ambassadon

I FIED

to,

Volker,

on that

Ambassadon

that they -- that the
Giuliani

about

 UNCLASS I

1

Uknaine

L45

FIED

?

3

specifically. I mean, I've seen that neponted since,
so I know that that idea is out there. But I did undenstand that Kurt,

4

fon instance, had mentioned he was talking -- talking to Rudy, and the

2

5

6
7
8
9
10
11

A

Not

help. I think Kunt felt -- I don't want to speak
fon him too much, but, centainly, the undenstanding fnom the -- it was
the tail end of a convensation, I recall. And he said, you know, I
can -- I can help him undenstand that this is a newUknaine, and I think
he just felt he could talk to him and change his view, which would then,
goal was to tny to

hopefully,

change

a Right.

the Pnesident's view.
So

just to recap. Entening that May 28th

that Mn. Giullani

t2

you wene awane

13

in connection with the Bidens

L4
15
16

t7
18
19

20

2t
22
23

24
25

A
A

He

wanted Uknaine

and

to investigate

the 2016 election in

meeting,
Bunisma

some fashion?

said that veny publicly, yeah.

But you wene awane of

that. That's what I just want to be

clean about.

A
a

Yeah.
And you had had a conversation

effect as weII, pnion to this

with Ambassador Volken to that

meeting?

A Not specifically on Biden Bunisma, this and that, but
Rudy's -- Kunt, I think, called it sevenal times a distnaction.
a So, but he was awane that Rudy Giuliani was posing a
distnaction in Uknaine?
A Yes.
a And he was awane, as you just testified, that the Pnesident,
UNCLASS

I FIED

 L46
UNCLASS I EIED

L

that he needed to convince Giuliani about

2

the

Uknaine

in

onden

to convince

Pnesident?

A I think he thought that at least would be helpful.
a Right. So it would be, I mean, it's pnetty basic deductive

3

4
5

neasoning,

6

to

that in

know what

onden

to

convince someone

of

something, you have

they think, right?

A WeIl, I'm not -- I'm not a cognitive scientist. I

7

8

think you can go into not knowing what

9

convincing them before they

--

TL

May 28th meeting,

L2

was advocating

that

Was

it

is.

your undenstanding as of this

Ambassadon Volken undenstood what Rudy

in nelation to Uknaine?
A As of May 28th, I do not know that fon sune. I

13

I

thinks and go about

befone you know what thein view

a WeIl, let me ask you:

10

somebody

mean,

Giuliani

cannot nead

L4

Kunt Volker's mind, nor did we have in-depth convensations on that.

15

I

16

e1se, his own television statements that Rudy Giuliani --

do know that we al1 were awane from pness neponts, from everything

Thene's no question

a

t7

it

19

knowledge going

20

a convensation, or at least

27
22
23

24
25

was

a secnet. There's no question

a secnet. I'm tnying to undenstand evenyone's basis of

18

was

it

A BiIl

into this meeting.

And

Bill

Taylon, you said you

had

WhatsApp?

Taylon had said, you know, I'm concenned that this

-- I won't go back to the
email -- is going to cause a change in the policy, and if that's going
to be the case, I'm not -- I'm not your guy.
Giuliani-Biden, as he called

a

And you undenstood

it

again

that the Biden was a nefenence to this

UNCLASS

I EIED

 L47

UNCLASSI FIED

1

investigation. Right?
A I think broadly, yeah. That it

Bunisma

2
3

was

al}

Hunten Biden,

Burisma, the company.

a

4

So

if

Ambassador

Taylon's, one of his main concerns was this

influence Uknaine policy, and as

5

Giuliani-Biden issue that

6

testified eanlier,

7

the policy wouldn't change, you still have no necollection as to whethen

8

on not Mn. Giuliani was discussed at that May 28th meeting with the

9

Secnetany

may

he wanted reassunances fnom Secnetany Pompeo

A I actually don't specifically.

L7

A WeII, what did the Secretany
meeting

A

13

say to Ambassadon Taylon at

that

?

The Secnetar:y neitenated what we wene tnying

to

do with

L4

Uknaine and the oppontunities we had with Zelensky, and that

15

the basis on which

I think

16

that

?

10

L2

you

we wene going

he welcomed

to

that was

move fonwand.

the oppontunity to talk to

Bill

Taylon as well.

19

I don't believe they had met befone. And I think by the end of the
meeting, he came away feeling, yep, Bill was the guy he wanted to go
out in this nole as the Change, and BiIl was, in his own wonds,

20

panaphnasing, neassuned and

27

good

L7
18

22
23

24
25

felt

he could go out and do

this job in

faith.

a
A

And

just to

be put a pin on

You would have

it,

what was he neassuned about?

to ask him, but he told me, "I'm

good

to go."

a That's all he said to you? And you don't rememben how -A He came out of that saying, good to go, you know. My problem
UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS

748

IFIED

set was to take care of the mission.

Was

3

Bill going to be the guy?
hJe were stil1 wonking on the buneaucnatics of it, but shortly
theneaften, even that wonked out. That he -- they found a mechanism

4

through a law that they hadn't looked

at

5

be --

7

2

befone

that allowed

him to

7

I undenstand. And you descnibed that already. And I don't
mean to be the nude. We just ane going to be hene all night if we don't

8

stant moving thnough.

6

9
10

IL
72

a

I will also be happy.
a So then following that meeting, was it youn undenstanding
that these -- was it youn undenstanding that these Thnee Amigos, as
you've descnibed them -- I know not youn wonds -A Believe

me, my weekends ane nare, so

13

A

Yeah, as Ambassadon Sondland has descnibed them.

14

a

--

15

How was

16

A

L7
18
19

20
21.

22
23

24
25

would lead the Ukraine

this going to

policy fon the State

Depantment?

be

For the State Depantment and the talhite House. They were the

thnee leads.

a

And

did you have an understanding that the Pnesident

had

dinected that?

A Yes, Gondon was veny clean in that, that the Pnesident has
asked me to do this; we will lead this up hene. That was veny clean
in the neadout I got aften the May 23nd meeting.
a And you had also said sevenal times today that Secnetany
Pompeo had also affinmed that arrangement too. Is that night?
A Yeah. And I know Gondon was in touch with him. I know
UNCLASS

I FIED

 749

UNCLASS

1

Secnetany Pompeo thought veny

2

he

--

And so

4

Pompeo appnoved

5

Secnetany Hale

highly of

Ambassadon

Volken. I

mean

Volker neponted to the Secnetany.

Ambassadon

a

3

I FIED

the Pnesident dinected this nelationship, Secretary

of it,

and

this

was

the, sont of, I think

called the innegulan

what Unden

annangement?

A No. His nefenence to "innegulan" was Ambassadon Sondland's

6

7

engagement

8

Ambassadon

a

9

in things that wene outside the negulan punview of the
to the Eunopean Union.

So

if

in lune

and Ju1y, and

tny to

I'mgoingto ask a genenal question,

dnill down -- in lune and July, do you recall

10

and then

11

having any convensations with anyone on neceiving any emails that might

t2

have given you some infonmation

13

on Rudy Giuliani wanted Uknaine

t4

the Biden and Bunisma and the 2016 election, and that that was a message

15

that

16

States

we can

was conveyed

related to this idea that the Pnesident

to initiate these lnvestigations to

to the Uknainians by anyone on behalf of the United

?

19

A I'm sonny to do this, but can you say that again?
a Ane you aware of whether any U.S. official nelayed to any
Uknainian official that the United States, wnit Iange, and penhaps the

20

Pnesident

\7
18

A Yeah.
a -- wanted those two investigations to

21.

22
23

the

be

the initiated

by

Uknainians?

A

24
25

specifically --

By an

official,

an Amenican

official,

that.
UNCLASS I

FIED

hor I'm not

awane

of

 UNCLASS I

a

1

So you ane

not awane of whethen on not Ambassadon Volken had

2

any conversations with any Uknainian

3

these investigations?

5

7

8
9

officials

about them

initiating

A No. Kurt and I did not discuss that.
a And you'ne not awane of whethen Ambassadon Sondland

4

6

150

FIED

had any

convensations with any Uknainian officials?

A No. I mean, I know he was having convensations with
Uknainian officials, but exactly what he was saying, I don't know.
a A11 night. Well, let me ask this question: At what point,

10

in the year 2OL9, did you come to

L1,

official,

72

investigations

had been advocating

undenstand

that anyone, any Amenican

to Uknainian officials to initiate these

?

L4

A I did not come to that understanding. I heard that. I
that in the pness, the suggestions of it. That was, centainly,

15

know, things we wene asking, but thene was no clean

16

That was not the policy that

17

moving fonwand

13

a

18
19

that

Wene

on.

I

was awane

you awane

--

Ambassadon Volken was speaking

a

And

24

conversations

25

of, the stnategy that

we wene

to

Rudy

Giuliani,

cornect?

-- what he indicated to me was, he was
going to talk to Rudy and try to, sont of, clear up some of his
misconceptions -- Rudy's misconceptions -- about Uknaine.

23

22

indication of that.

but you did indicate that you wene awane

Connect, that he was

2L

you

This was a Rudy Giuliani thing.

A

20

saw

did he even nepont back to you on what happened in those
?

A I think I

nememben

him saying once on
UNCLASS

IEIED

twice,

I

spoke

to

Rudy,

 UNCLASS

3

in this in this Ioop.
a No, I'm just asking. I undenstand. That's veny c1ean.
The question is just: What neadouts, or what neponts ane you getting

4

back fnom Ambassadon Volken about any

5

Giuliani

1
2

but, you know, again, I

151

I FIED

was

not

of his convensations with Rudy

?

15

A ReaIIy, none. We did not, you know, we didn't have an
oppontunity to discuss it in any gneat detail unless, I mean, I
can -- the WhatsApp, f have all of the WhatsApps with Kunt, and I think
he may have mentioned he met wlth -- that's Geonge -- I don't think
he even -- Iet's see, that's Apni1, that's May
He is asking about BilI Taylon going out. Yeah. So he's talking
to -- he wants to -- knowing that I was going to -- his approach was,
you know, Ponoshenko will soon be gone. Zelensky is going into his
place. This is on the 15th of May -- he will be inaugunated soon.
a Can you move fonwand to sont of the end of June, eanly JuIy.

16

Do you have any convensations

6
7

8
9
10
11
L2
13

t4

with him anound then?

20

A Let's see. No, late June was totally about Geongia. I had
nothing to do with that. One of the things we wene in negulan touch
with, is I kj.nd of tnied to touch base on whene things wene. It was
Kunt's nole in this -- negotiated with the Russians, because we had

2L

talked fon a long time, including at the May 28th meeting, that,

22

know, we were

23

Kunt and

L7
18
19

25

They

told

waiting fon the Russians to respond about anothen meeting,

his countenpant, and they

And up

24

you

had been pushing

off.

until the time he nesigned, they neven agneed to meet again.

me when

I

was

in

Moscow

a few weeks ago, 0h, yeah, we'II

UNCLASS I

FIED

do

 152
UNCLASS I

T

it,

we'ne getting

F]ED

neady. But they neven had.

So

that

was a question.

5

let me tny it this way: Wene you awane that Ambassadon
Volken and DAS Kent went to Tononto in eanly July for a Uknainian
A Yeah, there was a big Uknainian aid confenence in July.
Originally, I think the Deputy Secnetany was possibly going. Thene

6

had been a

7

something e1se, and

2
3

4

a

a

8
9
10

possibility of -- that I might go, and I

I

know Kunt

went,

was

tnaveling

on

and

Did you get a neadout or a nepont back fnom Ambassadon Volken

about what tnanspined thene and any meetings he may have had with
Uknainian officials?

A I don't necall anything fnom that, oo.
a He didn't te1I you about a pnivate convensation he had with

11

t2
13

WeII,

Pnesident Zelensky?

that I'm recalling.

L4

A

Not

15

a

Wene you

familian with a Ju1y 10th meeting at the White House

16

whene Ambassadon Sondland

17

Ambassadon

attended, along with Secnetany

Penny,

2L

of Uknainian officials?
A That does sound familian. I'm sorny to do this, but let's
tny to put myself -- yeah, I was speaking at a confenence on fneedom
of the pness, a ministenial meeting in London. I don't think thene
was any -- again, those wene the guys that wene charged in doing

22

Uknaine, and

23

necollection of that.

18
19

20

a

24
25

Bo1ton, and a couple

You

I don't

it

sounds

familian, but I don't have any

don't have any specific recollection of getting a nepont

back?
UNCLASS

I FIED

 153

UNCLASS

A
a

L
2
3

I FIED

No.

the only neadout you got fnom the July 25th caII was fnom

And

Ambassador Volken saying

that it

was

a gneat caII?

6

A Yeah. I never saw -- we don't get tnanscnipts of the
Pnesident's cal.I. The President's
a I know that. f'm just asking you, that was the only neadout

7

you even got?

8

A

Yeah,

a
A

DAS

4
5

9

t7

too

didn't tell you anything about it?
I don't have any specific
He might have. I just
Kent

The 25th

of July, again,

t4

I

15

think,

15

pnocess tnying

was meeting
when

I

you know, was

-- if

thene was something,

with a new Gneek Govennment in Athens,
came back alneady,

to

push fonward,

that

and

was when we wene

that was, I

in that

PCC

find out --

a So you went to the PCC meeting on July 31st?
A July 3Lst.
a But not the one on JuIy 23nd?
A No, because I was in Gneece.
a So pnion to the July 31st meeting, you didn't get a download

L7
18
19

20
2L

as

to what

happened on

24

of Uknaine?
A I don't

25

call. I

23

it

necollection of that.

13

22

having anybody even mentioning

much.

10

t2

I don't necall

had

the pnesidential phone call with the Pnesident

necal1 specifics

that in

my

notes.

of it, no. I

And

UNCLASS I

knew thene was a phone

that was -- that
F]ED

was

the 25th of

 UNCLASS

7

July, but the details of it, I don't

a

2

Wene

you awane

3

that Mn. Giuliani

4

eanly August?

of

whethen on

may have met

154

I FIED

have.

not,

on did you hean

at any point

with any senion Ukrainian officials in

5

6

talking publicly about going to Ukraine, but then he didn't, if I

7

necall.

I -- I don't have any panticular necollection of -a And wene you -- did you have any convensations with

8
9

So

Ambassadon Volken on Ambassadon Sondland

10

statement

11

nelated

about a potential pness

that the Ukrainians would issue in eanly to

to any of these investigations?
A No, I mentioned earlien at some point in

L2
13

timefname you'ne nefenencing bnoadly, Gordon

t4

I

15

with Zelensky.

nememben

mid-August

pnobably

this

talking about a scnipt.

the wond "scnipt" fon moving fonwand on this, the scnipt

2t

it sounds familian now. I couldn't te11 you lf I'm conflating
something I have now nead in tnanscnipts on pness, but that concept
sounds familian. I don't recall somebody saying -- I mean, there's
no neason they would come to telI me that. But that does -- I have
to say that does sound familian.
a And this is now the second time that when we've asked you

22

about

that eanly to mid-August timefname, yoU've

nefenned back

to that

23

convensation with Ambassadon Sondland about a

scnipt. Is it

your

24

belief that the convensation you had with him about a scnipt was in

25

that

16
L7

18
19

20

And

timefname?
UNCLASS I

FIED

 155

UNCLASS]FIED

A

1

Again,

I

to the best of

have

to say, I just can't

ability, that I

2

you

3

I'm working with Zelensky with

4

a scnipt to

a

5

my

nememben.

nememben Gondon

I

shaned with

talking about:

Volodymyn and, you know, we have got

move fonwand.

And then you wene awane

--

on when did you leann

that

the

6

hold on the Uknainian secunity and militany assistance became public.

7

Do you necall?

10

A Okay. No, I don't, I mean, in the -- we wene hearing about
it, you know, as it came out. And, again, we wene tnying to wonk this -a We1l, Iet me ask you about that. You obviously wene wonking

11

the PCC pnocess. Did you ever get an explanation fon

t2

aid was being

13

A

8
9

why

the Ukraine

held?

No.

16

a Did you ask?
A We -- I was asked, and I was told thnough my people that we
think it's a Mulvaney -- that this has come fnom Mulvaney. Thene was

L7

diffenent thoughts.

18

pnocess, he would, sont

19

actual decision, nathen than

20

some people say

74
15

it's

of,

-- the hope was that thnough the PCC

detenmine,

find that out,

somebody says OMB is

Mulvaney has ondered

Thene ane neferences

2t

could

Nobody

that I

and fonce

holding

and

that.

have now since nead

in pness neponting

in tnanscnipts to, you know, at the eanlien -- eanlien itenations

22

on

23

of the

24

that this is being held, but definitively, I did not know.

25

this,

an

PCC

a

pnocess, the sub-PCC, on something, someone from

Were you awane

OMB

saying

at any time in August when this issue was
UNCLASS ]

FIED

 UNCLASS I

1

pnesented

directly to the Pnesident again? Did you hean?

A No. No, sin.
a After, you know, we discussed those texts earlien that

2

3

4

Ambassadon

5

Anound

6

with

7

being held

8
9
10

155

FIED

Taylor wnote that

some

of which have been made public.

that time, in eanly September, did you have any convensations

in the State Depantment about the

anyone

reason why the

aid was

up?

A I think we wene i.n, sont of, staff meetings when we would
catch up on these things. And I know Geonge was heaning diffenent
things that wene speculations

a
A

11

t2

What was he heaning?

That these vanious stories

that, you know, was this tied to

13

something? That was a question.

14

investigations?

15

then, of counse, by Septemben 11th, the hold was

16

hold

--

was

Was

Was

this tied to

something

to

do

with

this tied to Rudy? But nobody knew for sune,

-- if

you

and

call it

a

lifted.

23

a Did you even have any convensation?
A This is helpfuI. I'm trying not go through al1 of my emails.
a Do you want to clarify something?
A Yeah, let me just look at something here, because this may
be helpful. 0h, night. This does he1p. So please let me go back to
July 29th, and this is, I just mentioned that Geonge was saying thene
was this -- this idea out thene that D.C. had pushed Kyiv on

24

investigating the

L7

18
79

20
2L
22

25

Bidens.

a I'm sonry. What are you looking at night thene?
UNCLASS

] FIED

 L57

UNCLASS

t

] FIED

A I'm looking at an email whene Geonge was updating me on
-- that anothen

penson we know out

in the think tank wonld

2

something he

3

had heand

4

that D.C. pushed Kyiv on investigating the Bidens.

5

6
7
8

9
10
11

t2
13

L4
15
16

t7
18
19

20

2t

a

So someone

that that

that would have been the July ca1I,
And Geonge said:

at

a

think tank

had heand fnom the Ukrainian side

was discussed?

A I can't say that for sune.
a We1I, maybe -- why don't you just nead the email?
A "He'd heand that in the call last Thunsday, D.C. pushed Kyiv
on investigating the Bidens. I said it wasn't in the caII, but looking
forward that we wene wonking on panticulans of a visit, dates TBD. "
a Okay. And you've now nead the calI, night?

The

tnanscnipt,

the necond?

23

24

accunate

25

Thunsday, so

I said it wasn't in the ca1l, but we'ne working on panticulans of a
visit, dates TBD.
a Sonny. So who is this email between?
A This is fnom Geonge Kent to myself, and copied BiIl Taylon.
a And this was a fonwand?
A No, this was just Geonge saying, you know, someone else had
heard this. This was, again, pant of this bnoad speculation of things
that was out thene. It didn't clanify anything for us.

A
a

22

that last

in New Yonk, yeah.
And is that -- the numon that the think tank person heand,
When we wene

?

A I'd

have

to go back to the specifics of that -- that
UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS ]

L

MR. MALINOWSKI: Can

2

MS. DAUM:

If

I

ask who the think tank penson

we could good ask

3

confidentiality about that, if it is

4

THE CHAIRMAN: We need

5

.6
7

8
9
10
1.1

L2
13

L4

77
18
19

20

to

for

some measune

necessary

know who

to

it is.

be

was?

of

publicly neleased.

So you

are going to

to answen the question, I'm afnaid.
I would ask all Membens, again, I would neitenate to aII membens
and staff -- although I think membens ane the issue, not the
staff -- that the testimony hene should not leave this noom. But, you
know, if thene ane othen witnesses that have sounces of infonmation
have

that ane nelevant,
AIvIBASSADOR

we do need

REEKER:

I

to

know need

to

mean, undenstanding

know who

that

they are.

Geonge Kent has

-- the subject line of his email was
[nedacted], who is a fonmen Ambassadon to Uknaine. I'm tnying to
nememben when, and now I'm trying to nememben what

alneady spoken to you, so

it

was

BY MR. GOLDMAN:

15

16

158

FIED

a

So

Ambassadon

it's not just a think tank penson. It's a fonmen

--

A

Yeah.

a
A

-- who's now with a think

tank?

Right.

24

a Okay. Did you finish the email? I'm sonny?
A Yeah, and that's in keeping with, you know, the stonies that
no clanity on definition.
were cinculating. What we had was no
What -- and sont of my Uknaine box, we ane sti1l wonking on getting

25

that date. Is thene any, you know --

2t
22
23

UNCLASS I

FIED

 159

UNCLASS I

a

1

2

No,

I

undenstand

be clean because oun time

3

A July 29th.

4

THE CHAIRMAN: And

5

of it,

6

stants

7

you

that's

F]ED

what you were

is up, that

was

I'm sonny, I think

doing. But just to

a July 29th email?
when you

did nead a pontion

just stanted with the wond "he." Is that how the email

?

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

Yes, because the subject line says:

8

"[Redacted]: Is lt tnue that"

9

"He'd heand

and then

the text of the email starts

10

that in the call last Thunsday."
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The time is with the minority.

11

MR. CASTOR: Mank

exhibit

2.

t2

IMinority Exhibit No.

13

was manked fon

74

MR. CASTOR: Do you need

15

MR. GOLDMAN:

16

AMBASSADOR

77

exhibit

20

identification. l
a Politico anticle?

I will take it.

REEKER: So

I'm afnaid I did a little scrawl on youn

1.
BY MR. CASTOR:

18
19

2

a

I just

marked

exhibit 2. That is also an anticle by Ken

Vogel.

27

A

Right.

22

a

It is a Politico stony by Ken Voge1 befone he went to

23

New Yonk Times.

24

A

Okay.

25

a

In

January

of

2@17.

UNCLASS

] FIED

The

 150

UNCLASS]EIED

L
2

A
a

Okay.
And

to,

Uknaine

4

this anticle?

6
7

8
9

goes thnough vanious

effonts of people affiliated with

you know, sabotage candidate Tnump. Are you

3

5

it

A I am not, [o, sir.
a The panagnaph -- I will just

read

one

of the finst

panagnaphs.
The second panagraph

to help Hillary Clinton

office.

is:

"Uknainian Government

and undenmine Tnump by

10

his fitness fon

TL

a top Trump aid

L2

the matten,

13

Clinton's al1ies

74

advisons, a Politico investigation found."

15

it,

familian with

And

officials tnied

publicly questioning

They also disseminated documents

implicating

in connuption and suggested they wene investigating
only to back away aften the election. And they helped

this is,

neseanch damaging infonmation on Tnump and his

you know, an 18-page story going through various

t7

A I didn't nead it, living in Italy at the time.
a And so ane you familian with the genenalized allegation that

18

the President on his supporters wonnied that Uknainians wene wonking

19

against

16

20

2t
22
23

24
25

him?

A I am now, today, on in the last few months, yeah.
a And some of the concerns -- and this goes thnough sevenal
categonies of neponting -- one involves a Uknainian-Amenican named
, a consultant for the Democnatic National Committee,
neceived a bunch of money, had some outneach with the embassy.

Is that

an allegation you are familian with?
UNCLASSI FIED

 161

UNCLASSI FIED

8

it is not. WeII, I should say, again, I can't help but
having nead -- I mean, I nead the pness in the last few weeks and oven
time, and it was not something I was tracking panticularly on Uknaine.
a OkaY.
A I had no connectivity to Uknaine untiI, you know, except fon,
sont of, focused on the Russia angle and the wan until laten. 5o I
don't want to be disingenuous and suggest I've neven heand that. I've
heand it is all pant of the stneam of stuff out thene. My focus was

9

oh, you know, nunning, you know, staffing, nunning oun mission,

L

2
3

4
5

6
7

10

A

No,

and

implementing U.S. policy.

a

11

The

finst eight on nine pages talks about I

and

some

13

of the efforts that the
embassy, the Ukrainian embassy to the United States, took in helping

t4

hen.

L2

15

of the effonts that

And then

she undentook, and some

the stony pivots into the involvement of a Uknainian

I

16

investigative jounnalist

T7

believe he is cunnently in the panliamentanian, Senhiy Leshchenko,

18
19

20

a

And as pant

of

and

22

the -- to the Manafont

23

Uknaine by Uknainians?

ledgens came

A

You know,

Leshchenko's jounnalism, you know, the aspects

of the Uknainian tie to
wonk, the publication of Manafort's wonk in

out.

of the

25

don't

this relates to the involvement of the Manafont ledgens?
A The name is familian, but I don't know.

2t

24

and subsequent panliamentanian, and

I

Wene

you awane

pnobably nead The New York Times on The Wall

Stneet lounnal on neponts at that
UNCLASS

time. It wasn't something I
I FIED

was

 UNCLASS I

7

2
3

4

762

FIED

focused on beyond being --

a

okaY.

A -- a bnoadly intenested citizen.
a Fain enough. The stony also talks

about the op ed

5

discussed eanlien, Ambassadon Chaly prepaned an op ed in The

6

we have copies

7

the necond,

8
9
10

of that, but unless you would like
we'11 just stipulate to that.

On page 15

HiII,

on page L4, a Ukrainian ministen

of intennal affains,

mentioned. Ane you familian with

which

to mank it

of this neport, of this stony, thene's -- I'm

fon

sonny,

Ansen Avakov

is

Avakov?

t2

A
a

13

Anyway,

74

statements about the candidate Tnump on Twitten

11

me

we

That name does not ning a be1l, no.

is a Minister of Intennal Affains in the Uknaine.
he had, acconding to this Vogel neporting, had some negative
He was and

and

t7

A Uh-huh.
a -- called him a clown. Some Facebook posts called him, or
nefenenced him as a misfit. Wene you awane that Avakov, on anyone in

18

the Uknainian Govennment was engaged in an effont to making statements

19

like that

15
16

20

2t
22
23

24
25

about the candidate

Tnump?

A I was not until mone necently when this became an issue. I
think as f stated, George -- and mostly Geonge, but his team wene kind
of my -- to the extent I needed to be awane of context in Uknaine and
what was going on, that this was its own stnand of, you know, pant of
what had fed into a1l of this. But I was not, at the time, cunnent
with it, on following it with any closeness.
UNCLASS ]

FIED

 UNCLASS

1

a If

163

IFIED

the Pnesident had concenns about Uknainians tnying to work

2

fon Secnetany Clinton and defeat him, would

3

somebody

4

of the Muellen pnobe?

to look into that if

he thought

UNCLASS I

it

FIED

it

be

fair

fon him to

impnopenly led to the

want

start

 L64

UNCLASS I

1

F]ED

[5:03 p.m.]
BY MR. CASTOR:

2

a

3

And

if

he had a good

faith belief that

these issues wene out

4

thene, could that be -- have been a motivating facton fon

5

issues discussed

A

6
7

Pnesident.

a

8

9

Again,

in exhibit 1, the othen Vogel anticle?
I can't pnejudge the Pnesident's view.

He makes

Was

his

some

of the

He's the

own decisions.

that youn understanding of what was concerning the

Pnesident about Uknaine?

A I

10

undenstood fnom

-- certainly fnom pness reponts and fnom

15

-- backgnounding and explaining the context, that
Pnesident Tnump does not like Ukraine.
And that was veny evident in the meeting when the delegation,
aften the inaugunation, went -- you know, I don't -- Uknaine is a bad
place, I don't like Ukraine -- and that Kurt and Gondon and I believe

16

Senaton lohnson and Secnetany Penny wene continuing

11

t2
13

L4

L7

18

Geonge's backgnound

2t
22

this is a new Uknaine, this is Zelensky, and hene what is
to do to move fonwand.

a

25

And

neasons,

A I couldn't speculate. It
didn't like Ukraine.
a

And

him:

we want

his negative energy on Uknaine, as fan as you know, it

didn't nelate to political

23

24

tell

But

19

20

to tny to

did it?
was

just

nelayed

to

me

that

he

his skeptical views of Uknaine, that wasn't relayed to

in the context of him having political -- of thinking that if
he -- you know, if these issues got -- somebody got to the bottom of,

you

UNCLASS

IEIED

 UNCLASS

1

it

2

was

would have a

political

165

IF]ED

upside fon him, that wasn't nelayed to you,

it?

A I

3

mean, thene was media neponting

to that. I

mean,

that's,

5

I think, what Mn. Giuliani was saying quite publicly.
a But his deep-nooted skeptical view of Uknaine was just a

6

pensonally held belief

4

A I don't know that.
a Okay. Duning the breaks, on I

7
8

9

of the Pnesident

had

as fan as you undenstood?

guess

the last bneak, I

leave the SCIF, get neconnected with the communications.

A You couldn't let go.
a WelI. And I guess some of oun Membens

10
11
L2

Mn. londan's attention

13

He has

L4

hene

tnied to

today. I'11

A
a

15

Fonmen

-- who can't be here today, and he apologizes.

at all of these,

be

bnought to

and he appneciates your testimony

note that.

Ohioan. Give my negand.

t7

this investigation, all the depositions veny
seriously, and he has attended just about eveny one. So he is sonry

18

that he couldn't be hene today, appreciates

16

He takes

youn senvice.

20

I guess the news neponts had come out this morning befone
you appeaned and signaled what you might testify to. And so he

2L

was

22

pushed out fnom you, on youn camp, on whethen

23

our side on thein

24

I

19

25

Anyway,

-- thene has been some just

side. I

could say

had no idea what you wene

A

questions about whethen that was being

As you can imagine,

it

that

was coming from

eithen

wasn't coming fnom our side.

--

I

know a

lot of jounnalists

UNCLASS I EIED

fnom my days

 166

UNCLASS I

L

as a spokesman, and they've

2

I will not talk to

3

4

a
A

5

know,

8
9
10
11
L2
13

t4
15

15
17

that

them.

-- I

They wene

nesponded

to emails,

I did not
a

been extnaondinanily fnustnated

Okay.

5

7

all

F]ED

"Can we have youn opening

statement?"

--

on

And as you

prepane one.

Okay.

you wene going

took calls negularly because they wene

So

to the extent thene were stonies wnitten about

to say, it didn't

come

from you on your

what

camp?

A I think there's lots of people that chatten about this stuff
and I'11 be -- I saw a couple of things. Thene was a Daily Beast piece
that came out last night that I -- now I can't even necall what it said,
but I nemember thinking, we1l, that's not -- I mean, it just had, 1ike,
inaccunacies about me. But that's the natune of this business.
a Okay. But you didn't fonecast youn testimony to anybody?
A No, sir.
a So if anybody did
A The only thing I've even done was -- and, fnankly, State
jounnalists

have a much

better

gnasp

of undenstanding what

18

Depantment

19

the nole is of an Acting Assistant Secnetany fon Eunope.

20

some pness

2t
22

policy, which has not been the case.
a Okay. When did you first hean about the -- you spoke to

23

earlier this

24

Up, and

25

A

stonies that wene chanacterizing

me

as

in

change

monning about Geonge Kent's foun nannatives

I believe you nelated that

one

of

Uh-huh.
UNCLASS I

FIED

Thene were

of Uknaine

that

them had Bunisma

us

he wnote

in it.

 167

UNCLASS

a

1
2

3

4
5

6
7

8

company

was

in, I think you said, in panen, connupt gas

?

-- fon me, the neophyte who annived a week
befone, he was laying that out, what is Bunisma. At that, I think I
was awane of that it was a gas company. I'm not tennibly familian with
it.
a Ane you familiar, lt's run by a fonmen ecology ministen,
Zlochevsky

He was

?

A I can't say I actually know that name, oo.
a Okay. And would it sunpnise you that they've

10

investigation at vanious points fon

A

t2
13

it

A Yeah.

9

11

And

I FIED

money

You'ne talking about Ukraine, so

been unden

laundering, tax evasion?

it doesn't sunpnise

me

at

all.

15

a Okay. In 2Ot4, the company embanked on an initiative to
bolsten thein image, I guess, and place people on thein boand to help

16

them govenn. Ane you

t4

A

t7

WeII,

I

know

familian with that effont?
that

Hunten Biden went on

thein board. I'm not

18

familian with the effont pen se, I'm just familian with the stonies

19

that

20

on when

f

2L

to give

me some

22
23

24
25

he went on
was

the boand. And I had

tnying to gnasp what

some genenal convensations eanly

is all this

about, Geonge was able

basic parametens.

a Okay. And did anybody even nel-ate to you, does Hunten Biden
have a panticulan expentise in conponate govennance?
A I don't know.
a Okay.
UNCLASS

] FIED

 UNCLASS

1
2
3
+
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
t2
13
\4
15
16
t7
18
19
20
Zt
22
23
24
zs

168

IFIED

A I've neven met Hunten Biden.
Q

Do we know, does anybody

was put on

nelated

at the State Depantment know if

he

the boand fon any other reason othen than the fact that he's

to the fonmen Vice Pnesident?

A I couldn't say. I don't know the boand and I don't know him.
Q Okay. In any of youn convensations with Ambassadon Volken,
did he ever nelate to you that if thene ane connupt Uknainians on
Ukrainians doing bad things that, You know, ifthat's the subject, and
they'ne at Bunisma or

some

othen type

of oliganch-affiliated

to neopen those investigations?
A I do not neca1l that specifically. I know Kunt and I, long

entenpnise, that Zelensky ought

I got this kind of out-of-the-blue tnansplant back to Washington
and this job, when I was appnoached about and in the process of
befone

potentially being the candidate fon nomination to Uknaine, and that
Kunt had been named, I talked to him about his bnoad intenest in what
he believed was the

cnitical piece in the Uknaine

puzzle was

somehow

dealing with the oliganchs.
And

his path toward that,

at antitnust legislation

and

I

found veny intenesting, was looking

trying to

bonnow fnom what

the U.S. had

difficulty in that if you go to the
Depantment of lustice night now, antitrust is not what it was back in
the trustbusten days, the eanly days of U.S. antitnust law.
done, and that thene

is

So he needed sont

a centain

of

mone

kind of almost histonical reseanch to

it was just veny
interesting and anticipating potentially that I would end up at some
look at that and what ways fonwand, and to

UNCLASS I

FIED

me

 169

UNCLASS I E]ED

7

point as Ambassadon.

We

kind of looked fonwand to

that.

And

I think

5

I said to him, you know, I am actually sont of disappointed that I won't
be able to leann all this and wonk with you on that.
But I know that was stilI pant of his pnionity as he went fonwand,
and I do nememben sending him one email aften Zelensky won the election

6

just saying:

7

elected this

8

this

2
3

4

Hey, Ukraine

guy.

And

is

a democnacy, they had good elections and

that's stil1

whene we

ane,

is how can we canny

forwand.

10

a In tenms of any of the Uknainians investigating connuption
on neopening cases, whethen it's Burisma on any othen case, that would

11

relate to Uknainians, not investigating Americans. Is that

t2

undenstanding?

9

13

!4
15

youn

A I don't think I pnobably thought about it.
a Okay. I mean, did anyone relate to you that somebody wanted
the Uknainian pnosecutons to investigate

Amenicans?

18

A I don't necall except thene was all this stuff about Hunten
Biden. 5o I don't know if that was
a And do you know whethen that like h,as an investigation of

19

Hunten Biden on an

L6

t7

20
2L
22
23

investigation of Uknainians and how they --

A I neaIly don't, I don't. I

neven nead

this to that.

a But it could have been eithen way?
A I just don't know.

24

a

25

MR. MEADOWS: You can go ahead.

okay.

UNCLASS

I FIED

the stonies of all

 BY MR. CASTOR:

1

2

a

3

thnough

4

how

5

just

that

Eanlien

I

came

saw

about.

this

monning on

Was

in

that like

aftennoon when we were going

youn binden,

an onganic

f

was

effont

just

whene

wondening

the majonity

the yelIow tabs and stanted asking you about it?

A

7

So when

9

this

guess the yeIlow tabs

6

8

L70

I FIED

UNCLASS

So, yeah,

I

I

mean, because

passed these emails

I find things like this
to

my

amusing.

counsel, who's a veny nice

like assistant panalegal, since I work 20 houns a day and don't have
time to do these things myself and couldn't ask my staff to do it, I

10

had pninted a couple

11

pninten.

of things on yellow

papen because

I

had

it

by

my

13

in a few cases actually thene was too much yeIlow papen in,
so other things got printed. It was ones that I wanted that wene key

L4

ones, Iike the one

15

23nd meeting

L2

76
17
18
19

20

2t
22
23

24
25

And

I

had taken

at the White

And hen very

out here that

is the neadout fnom the

House.

nice assistant took,

when she made

the copies, took

all the ones that wene on yellow papen and stuck a yellow sticky on
it so that I would know.
a Okay.
A And that's aLl it was, so -a
A

Okay.

And some of

it

was

just

because

the papen was in the pninter.

Sonry.

a

You have

to

understand, fnom the vantage point

of

the

minonity when you see these things tnanspining a1l of a sudden you'ne
UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS ]

t7t

FIED

1

reading selected yellow-tabbed emails, oun side wondens

2

to

A It wasn't -- wel1,
off. I don't think f

comes

now you

know. I should

have taken them

even noticed they wene thene.

in neal quick.
5o the email you nead just a little bit ago, you mentioned that

MR. MEADOWS: Let me jump

5

6
7

that

be.

3

4

how

a think tank individual
AI4BASSADOR

8

REEKER: Whom I know

a little

bit,

fonmen

--

t2

-- sent an email on the 29th of Ju1y. Did you not
find that cunious why he would be asking that kind of question on the
29th of JuIy about a phone call?
AMBASSADOR REEKER: We1I, I knew thene was a phone call on the

13

25th.

9
10
11

MR. MEADOWS:

t4

MR. MEADOWS: Yeah,

15

AMBASSADOR

76

MR. MEADOWS:

77

but

how would he know?

REEKER: WeI1,

this is

Washington,

WeLI, but he wonked fon Bunisma and

I

mean.

for the Atlantic

Council. Did you know that?

I did.
Yeah. I mean, so I find it just very cunious that

REEKER:

18

AMBASSADOR

19

MR. MEADOWS:

I,m nOt

SuNC

20

here's a guy that has connections with Bunisma, not one but multiple

2L

contacts with Bunisma, would know about a phone call between the

22
23

24
25

of the United States and the
didn't find that cunious?
Pnesident

AMBASSADOR

Pnesident

of Uknaine.

REEKER: To be honest, Congnessman,

didn't. I looked at it,

and

I

saw what George had

UNCLASS ]

FIED

I

You

pnobably

said, that no --

 UNCLASS

1

MR. MEADOWS:

2

How

1

Let me ask it in a diffenent way then.

often do think tank people call you about pnivate phone ca1ls

3

on youn subondinates about pnivate phone

4

soveneign states?
AMBASSADOR

5

t72

FIED

REEKER: That

caIIs

between two leadens

of

kind of stuff goes on all the time

thene's constantly speculation and numons and leaks

and

6

because

7

whispens. I mean, I couldn't put a date to it, but this town is full

8

of

fonmen

MR. MEADOWS: So you say you know

9

AMBASSADOR

10
LL
L2
13

L4

officials.

I

him.

How do

REEKER: He was a fonmen Foreign Senvice

officen,

Is that the only context that you know him in?
AMBASSADOR REEKER: Yeah, I mean, I think I may have seen him at
the Atlantic Council. I'm not sure if he is involved in othen things.
MR. MEADOWS:

You know,

I think I

had lunch

with him some years ago, talking
supponting the U.S. pavilion

16

about when I was going to Milan and

t7

at the U.S. -- at the Wonld's Fair, the Expo

18

intenested in that. I have a vague necollection.
MR. MEADOWS: So

19

the

we wene

2@1-5,

and he was possibly

nesponse fnom youn team was, no,

that was

not pant of it, and to youn knowledge thene was no furthen contact?

2t

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

Yeah. I don't

22

often people hean fnom Inedacted], on I

23

or thene, but I'm not panticulanly close to

24

well.

25

him?

redacted ] .

15

20

you know

MR. MEADOWS:

Okay.

And do you
UNCLASS

know

if anybody's

may have bumped

him. I don't

into him hene
know him

think that -- would you

I FIED

how

that

 L73

UNCLASS

I FIED

1

charactenize Secnetany Pompeo's leadership towands Uknaine as a good

2

thing? I

AIVIBASSADOR

3

4

mean, how would you charactenize

and our

REEKER:

I think he's

it?

been suppontive

goa1s. That's what he undensconed to

of

oun policy

Ambassadon Taylon

in the

8

it in any gneat detail.
I joined one of his meetings where Kunt -- who, as I've mentioned,
neponted to him, and they had meetings whene I wasn't able to attend.
And he's nemained centainly intenested. It's, you know, it's up thene

9

in impontance. You've got this hot wan going on, 13,000 people alneady

5

6
7

10

meeting on the

suppontive

youn

effonts and youn

REEKER:

negative towand Secnetany
AMBASSADOR
Pompeo

Buneau?

that would say that you're being

I'm being negative towand Secretany

?

20

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

I don't

know

if thene is

such

a headline,

but

22

MR. MEADOWS:

23

AMBASSADOR

25

effonts in the Eunopean

would be misplaced then?

Pompeo

REEKER: That

MR. MEADOWS: YCAh.

24

my broad

MR. MEADOWS: So any headlines

19

21

0f

that Secnetany Pompeo has been
job overall?

Yeah.

L7

18

of

AMBASSADOR

15

16

haven't talked about

MR. MEADOWS: So would you say

13

L4

We

killed, so --

11

t2

28th.

But if there wene wouLd they be misplaced?

REEKER: Yeah,

I

would

think so. I haven't

had

-- it

looks like you're passing anound the headline.
MR. MEADOWS: We1I,

I

mean,

it says, "Official to testify that

UNCLASSIE IED

 774

UNCLASSIT]ED

blocks show of suppont fon ousted Ambassadon." And then the

1

Pompeo

2

anticle

3

of Secnetary Pompeo.
Would you say

4
5

to give

goes on

views

of a negative connotation about your view

that that is

an accurate

neflection of youn personal

?

REEKER:

6

AMBASSADOR

7

MR. MEADOWS:

8

AMBASSADOR

9

mone

Okay. I yield

REEKER:

is that

thene, my view

NO.

I

back.

mean, fiY

-- I think it's

Ambassadon Yovanovitch was

only fain to
subjected

add

to just

10

neally outnageous pness covenage and innuendo and thneats coming

t7

high levels, netweeting innesponsible jounnalism, which affected her

L2

pensonally, hen safety, affected our mission, reflected on the United

13

States, and it was pnetty outnageous.
And

L4

I

pushed, as you know, within the Depantment mone nobust

15

language as we wene

16

was

And

I

was

18

the job

19

cane

20

a colleague of

21

futune.

was

we proposed

putting out a statement, and that

had

--

you know, pant

of

my

people.
many

And she was one

yeans.

So

I

have.

in the finst

week on

most impontantly,

to take

my mandate

to take care of the mission, but

of oun,

We

22

--

not appnoved in that way. And so we used what we did

L7

fnom

of them and also a fniend

and

safety,

hen

was concenned about hen

talked with hen, of counse, about the possibility of taking

23

the assignment at

24

And

25

Secnetany when

EUCOM,

then, you know, I

which had come open because of my move hene.

was

with hen in the meeting with the

the decision

was made

UNCLASS

in

I EIED

tenms

Deputy

of the timing.

 L75

UNCLASS I

FIED

Of counse she got hen awand and induction into the Ha}}

7

Fame

back, you know, was reassuned by human resounces then,

2

at the

3

which took oven

4

do

5

possibilities,

6

But

NDU, went

EUCOM,

of

to find

hen

the appropniate,

if

she wasn't going to

what assignment might she be intenested and what wene the
and neassuned about that.

I stiIl,

you know, think

it is unfontunate that such a fine

7

pnofessional Foneign Senvice officen, Amenican, and, most impontantly,

8

human

being, had to go thnough that.
BY MR. CASTOR:

9

a

10
11
12
13

t4
15

The email

nelating

to Inedacted] that Kent wnote, what date

was that?

A JuIy 29th, he says with confidence. Is that night?
a So if I have this conrect, Kent wnote: D.C. pushing Kyiv
to investigate Bidens. Is that night?
A WeII, Iet's nefen to it again.
a

16

Look, on JuIy 29th,

that's nelatively

L7

intelligence fnom a call tnanscnipt that hadn't

18

months.

A

19

We11,

line

2t

Giullani stuff that was on live

22

he was doing, so --

24
25

come

out fon 2

mone

the only thing I would say about that is that this stony

20

23

nemankable

to
that, I

had been out thene going back centainly

it in

TV saying

Manch and
mean,

that

the

Rudy

was what

to the call?
That is the notion of the email. I can nead it to you again.
The subject }ine: IRedacted], colon, is it tnue that, question

a
A

But was

nefenence

UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS

-- this is

L

mank

2

heand

Geonge sending

L76

I FIED

that to

me and

Bill to

be aware he

had

3

that in the call -- last Thunsday D.C. pushed Kyiv on
investigating the Bidens. I said -- that would be Geonge -- I wasn't

4

in the ca11, but looking fonwand, that

we wene wonking on

panticulans

8

of a visit, dates TBD.
a Okay. But that's not a genenalized Rudy Giuliani is pushing
these things, that is something happened on this call?
A And yeah, I mean, clearly he was -- he was -- I can't speak

9

fon Inedacted] on whene leaks like that

5

6
7

11

fnom, but

But somebody evidently that had finsthand account of

a

10

come

occunned on

what

the call is talking to Iredacted], night?

15

A I can't say that with any definitiveness because I wasn't
on the calt. I don't know how Inedacted] gets his infonmation or his
speculations on his tnial balloons on whene any of that would come.
So I couldn't say.

16

But, you know, leaks in this town ane of that kind, and we've

t2
13
L4

77

of a numben of

people

18

it

see a

19

20

and

didn't

that

full

were on

neadout

heand

the caI1. I don't -- I was not

of it until

much

on

laten.

Did you even have any discussions with Tim Monnison about

a
the call?

23

A I don't necall if Tim and I ever got into details of the caII.
I nememben cleanly and I've shaned with you Kunt Volker saying, "Gneat
call." Sonny, that's Kunt Volken, always so upbeat. That's the

24

pnoblem

27
22

25

with electnonic communication.

I just -- I couldn't

say

if I

had

UNCLASS I

any.

FIED

You know,

I talk to

Tim

 177

I FIED

UNCLASS

3

in a while but not -- anything like that wouldn't be on an open
line. And so it's possible that we had something, but I don't necall,
although I think f know -- I feel like I know, but it's pnobably from

4

mone

1

2

once

recent press neponting that he was on the call.

6

a Okay.
A I don't

7

MR. MEADOWS: So

5

8

don't

have a necond
AMBASSADOR

9

The

10

call

that I

know

of

that.

you've got a pnetty detailed calendar. So you

a

ca]l with Tim Monnison shortly aften the call?

REEKER:

was on

knew

Let's just check. I'11 be quick.

July 25th, connect?

And so

I

was

in

Gneece

tnaveling from Thessaloniki up to the Republic of

that

11

day. I

t2

Macedonia. I retunned the night of Satunday the 27th. I will look

13

quickly.

was

14

Tim Monnison? Tim Monrison?

15

I

went to the PCC,

of counse, on the 31st of JuIy,

and Tim Monnison

t7

it on his deputy
was chaining at the beginning and then Tim came in, that I necalI. And

18

I did talk to -- I

19

on the 30th.

t6

20

was

at that. In fact

And

it

was

he was

have a note

-- I think

Nonth

that I

had a

at the end of that

quite new at that stage.

week

He had

he chained

call with Ambassadon
that

Tim Monnison came oven.

just taken oven fnom Fiona HiII.

21,

He was

22

And we, my team,

23

Deputy, Michael Munphy, we had invited Tim Monrison oven.

24
25

And so on

of meetings

Sondland

the seven DAS's, or particulanly

my

Acting Pnincipal

the 1st of August, that Thunsday, he came and did a senies

and bniefings

with

some

UNCLASS

of

oun

IFIED

offices just to sont of get

 L78

UNCLASS I

to

speed on Eunopean issues because he had moved over fnom

L

up

2

contnol dinectonate,

3

I

4

he and Michael and

met him

in

And

5

FIED

I think, at NSC.

And so

the

anms

that was the finst time

penson and we had a quick sont of takeout lunch

in

my

office,

I.

I don't --

we pnobably touched on Uknaine,

5

specific necollections of that.

7

time, you know, any

8

And then

news on

I did

Because

I

but I don't

have

do nememben asking him oven

the date fon the White

House meeting?

that day, so August 1st.

see Kunt Volken

BY MR. CASTOR:

9

13

a hlho was al1 at the July 31st PCC meeting?
A It was huge. I mean, thene were pnobably 50 people in that
noom, or 4Q. It was intenagency. We wene late, and my -- one of my
team, somehow his cleanance didn't get passed so they wouldn't Iet him

74

into the White

10
L7

t2

And so,

15

House compound.

finally,

he

late,

76

we wene alneady

t7

with the matenials

18

key.

said,

Geonge and

we needed

night,

"A11

I,

you guys go aheadr

"

because

and he handed me the locked bag

fon the

PCC,

but he didn't hand me the

20

litenally walked in and it was
a fu1}, fuII noom, I mean veny intenagency. I know DOD was sitting

2t

night next to

19

And so we went

A
A

22
23
24

elements

25

some

to the meeting

me, NSC

and

fo1ks, and thene

was Tneasuny and

Justice

and

DNI?

Homeland

Secunity, pnobably DNI, and associated agencies

of that ilk.

So

it

was

a big meeting and focusing

and

on

-- again, the focus was not on the assistance, thene was that
UNCLASS

I EIED

 179

I FIED

UNCLASS

at that point they wene waiting to see if they

1

sepanate pnocess, and

2

could puII togethen the pnincipal small gnoup. But

3

focused on some othen aspects,

4

aspects

5

a

in

this

was

mone

military -- olr sonry, commencial

Ukraine.

Did you have any discussions with anybody

offline,

heading

11

in on out of that meeting, about that issue?
A WeII, we wene late, so I didn't. And then we did, at least
coming in and then with Laura Coopen fnom DOD, who I guess you've heand
fnom, she had bnought up again, she said: I know this isn't about
assistance, but I just want to say is thene any -- anybody have any
updates on the assistance because we need to stant moving on this

L2

because we have

5
7
8
9
10

Again,

13

t4

it

15

that

16
L7
18
19

20

2t
22
23

was

it

a

mandate.

was DQD's

issue.

neally vested with them,

was going

to

a
A

And you

a

And

That

stuff

and we wene

passes thnough

all sti1l

State, but

wondening whene

be.

didn't

At that meeting

with

have any communications

I don't

Monnison?

believe thene was anything specific,

no

in this time peniod did he have any communications with

his concerns about the call?
A I don't necall him naising anything. I don't

you about

necaLl knowing

that he was on the call until laten.

I

mean, again,

I

look at the

numben

of calls

and countny

--

you

talking 50 countnies and the things that were going on in

24

know, we'ne

25

that peniod. But as of night off the bat it
UNCLASS

I FIED

was

not something

I

was

 UNCLASS

1

awane

of.
My

2

focus on this was, okay, the Uknaine pnoblem set is White House

3

meeting and now assistance.

4

thing

5

tnying to have that

6

it.

7

the White

9

and

figure out

whene

a
that

was delayed

tnying to

the holdup

still

this

assistance

Mulvaney.

We wene

get a pnincipals decision
was

difficult.

on

And then

TBD.

oniginally scheduled to

until

wonk

is, if it's

I've alneady said,

House meeting was

You were

We wene

become apparent and

The scheduling, as

8

180

I FIED

appean here

last

week and

today?

11

I had agreed to come on Wednesday. And then I got a
message saying -- it was thnough my counsel -- that they had asked if

12

we could delay.

10

A

a
A

13
L4

to

15

go

1.6

CEPA

77

is

it to today?

options. I'm scheduled to

leave Tuesday to

fon the Velvet Revolution anniversany and to speak at

a

confenence. So I had hoped I didn't have to cancel that, which

of

2L

My Monday

25

Thene were some

Pnague

20

24

they asked you to delay

I --

a Okay. But Monday would have been a penfectly fine option?
A It would have been difficult to then leave and go because

19

23

And

why when they offened Satunday

18

22

Yeah,

my

having canceled evenything

is

now veny

fu1l,

last

week

to prepare

and then be hene.

but

a Okay. Fain enough. You wene scheduled to give a speech at
the Atlantic Council, as I undenstand it?
A I was scheduled to be on a panel about, if I recall connectly,
it was about on the eastenn Mediternanean. And having just coming back
UNCLASS I

FIED

 181

I FIED

UNCLASS

the Secretany's tnip to

Gneece and

all of the things we have done

1

fnom

2

with the

3

Secnetary signed a new annex to the mutual defense coopenation

4

agneement

new Gneek Govennment

--

which

is neally quite something. The

5

just taking us in a whole new dinection. It's
nea11y quite intenesting. Eastenn Med is a veny cnucial pant of our

6

AOR, eastenn Med and Black Sea.

7

with

Gneece

So we detenmined

--

you know,

I

get hundneds of these invitations

16

this pane1, that confenence, speeches, nemanks, QM,
pness intenviews, which I don't do many of, to talk about oun policies.
So that was assessed to be a good oppontunity. It was nipe, again
just coming back from the Gneece tnip. But when I thought I was going
to be testifying on on doing this deposition on Wednesday I pulIed out
of that, which I think was scheduled fon Tuesday, as I recaI1.
MR. MEADOWS: I want to clean up, Ambassadon, I don't know that
when I mentioned the think tank individual, without going back to his
name, centainly a connection with Bunisma, I didn't mean to imply that

t7

he wonked

18

Bunisma. The only known connection that

19

the Atlantic Council. And so I just want to

20

fon the record.

8
9
10
11
L2
13

L4
15

27

1itena11y fon

fon Bunisma, in spite of weaning a jacket and a hat that said

AvIBASSADOR

REEKER:

Okay.

I

have

is that

make sune

I don't eithen, to

he wonks fon

that I'm clean

be honest.

22

necollection is his focus is on energy issues, which would

23

Bunisma,

24
25

the Caspian stuff as weII,

I

I just want to make sure I
AIVIBASSADOR REEKER : OKay.
UNCLASS

make sense,

would think.

MR. MEADOWS:

I FIED

My

was clean.

 UNCLASS I

2

funding fnom

mean

some

Bunisma?

AMBASSADOR

3

4

that the Atlantic Council gets

MR. CASTOR: Any concenn

7

t82

FIED

-- no. I

REEKER:

mean, they

I dON't thiNk I

KNCW

thAt. NO. I

get funding from lots and lots of

sounces.

7

I don't knowifthat's -- I don't knowhowmuch, I don't knowthat they
do. You're telling me that they do, but I don't know.
You know, now that you mention it, I went to an Atlantic Council

8

event

9

end

5

6

in

of

New Yonk

September,

during the

night

UNGA

anound

week, the end

of

Septemben,

at the

the time all this was starting.

10

that's night, I think among the 20 sponsors, you've

17

things, they had thein

been

to

And

these

12

that. So I take that back,
I should know, I did know that -- on at least I infenned because they

13

wene

14

Council.

listed

among

names,

I

did notice

the sponsons that they gave

15

MR. CASTOR: Okay.

16

I'm good, Mr. Meadows.

17

I yield

18

THE CHAIRMAN: Ambassadon,

19

20
27
22
23

want

to

some money

to the Atlantic

back.
do you want

to take a bneak

on do you

keep moving thnough?

AMBASSADOR

in I'I1 let

REEKER:

Let's just

keep

going. If the waten kicks

you know.

THE CHAIRMAN: tnle1l,

questions, feel fnee

to

at

say

any time, no matten who's asking the

I

could use a small bneak.

REEKER: OkaY.

24

AMBASSADOR

25

THE CHAIRMAN: You know, YoU've had
UNCLASSIFIED

a 1ot of questions

about

 183

UNCLASS I E]ED

but

it

L

Bunisma,

2

public

3

Ambassadon Volken on

was

comments,

quite clean veny eanly on fnom Rudy Giuliani's

not to mention anything he might have said to

4

in pnivate, it was quite clean
fnom Giuliani's public comments that his intenest in Bunisma was the

5

Bidens, nightl

the

Thnee Amigos

REEKER: Uh-huh.

6

AMBASSADOR

7

THE CHAIRMAN: You have

8

AMBASSADOR

9

say yes

0h, I'm sonry.

I

thought you wene just

setting up. That's a question.
Yeah, centainly fnom what

10
11

REEKER:

to

numben

of

I

THE CHAIRMAN: He nefenred

13

AMBASSADOR

14

THE CHAIRMAN: So

in Uknaine or even all

L6

company

that

19

was

it

that

to the

Bidens?

wasn't a genenic intenest in

all

companies

enengy companies, he was intenested

Hunten Biden wonked

AMBASSADOR

statements

a

REEKER: The Bidens and Bunisma, yeah.

15

18

to that

times.

L2

t7

was neading he neferred

on,

REEKER: Based on

senved on

the

in the

board.

the pness neponts and Giuliani's

I saw, that was centainly tnue. I don't know that that

his exclusive intenest

but

23

that's cleanly what he was talking about
pubIicly. And he made no mysteny of his intenest. Am I night.
MR. REEKER. And as I've stated, testified, that Geonge laid that
out bs one of these narnatives. That was that Giuliani, Biden,

24

Bunisma,

25

company, Biden, Hunten,

20
2L
22

THE CHAIRMAN:

But

I thinkthat's

how he descnibed

that

was

it, telling

Giuliani's thing,

UNCLASS

] FIED

me, you know, gas

yeah.

 UNCLASS

THE

1

184

IF]ED

CHAIRMAN: And when you came back and took over

all this

with

was happening

Yovanovitch, youn shop

Ambassadon

2

and

3

sune

4

what the issues were so you could be bnought up

made

that you wene awane of sont of what was going on in the pness and

AMBASSADOR

5

this pontfolio

REEKER: We were

fnom. Obviously, I

was

tnying to figune out

intenested myself, that

6

coming

7

hey, we'ne getting these inquiries about

8

stony in The

9

fnom The

Hill

to date.

this.

whene

it

And then we found the

questions

wniting a stony that, and that stants generating

10

the process, and then

11

And so both

for

was

stanted with,

HilI. In fact, I think they said we've gotten
who wene

this

it

oun

was

this

deluge.

intenest in the

Buneau

to tny to get a handle

L4

it, but also to feed upwands centainly to my chain of command of
Unden Secnetany Hill and Counselon Bnechbuhl, the sont of what and why
now, they wene tnying to feed that. That's why I had so many, so many

15

emails

L2
13

on

of

18

clips fnom both Uknainian and vanious Amenican
THE CHAIRMAN: Right. And those, that backgnound, bnought to
youn attention Giuliani's intenest in the Bidens and Bunisma.
AMBASSADOR REEKER: To the degnee that George mentioned thene

L9

wene

20

focus of mine because

2L

bnand new

16
L7

22

pness

foun stnands, he was doing

I

it.

This was centainly not an enormous

had, you know, 50 countnies to deal with

to a job and then trying to deal specifically with Masha.
THE CHAIRMAN: And to those foun stnands, one was Bidens and

23

Burisma. The othen -- another was 2016, the alleged

24

involvement

25

and

in

Uknaine

2Ot6, night?

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

Uh-huh. Right. Yes,
UNCLASS

IE]ED

sin.

Sorny.

 185

UNCLASS I

THE CHAIRMAN: And

L

FIED

then, you know, you've

nead

the call recond,

2

that two issues the President brings up with Pnesident Zelensky

3

the Bidens and 2016, slash, CnowdStnike, night?
REEKER: CnowdStnike?

4

AMBASSADOR

5

THE CHAIRMAN: 20L6,

--

the Pnesident mentions the

6

CnowdStnike. That's

7

about 2O!6, that the senven's

8

Uknaine
AMBASSADOR

9
10

THE

does nefen

13

nead

to

in Uknaine on the

Okay. I didn't

the call

Burisma, he nefens

hack oniginated fnom

rememben

the specific

caII, the Pnesident actually

to the Bidens, You'ne awane, you've

necond.

at it some time ago when it
first came out. I don't have it with me. But yes. Yeah.
AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

THE CHAIRMAN: Now,

16
17

Ambassadon

18

his

Volken.

He

is

I

have looked

you've said

some veny

positive things about

a thorough diplomat, would you say, he does

homewonk.

REEKER:

Yes.

19

AMBASSADOR

20

THE CHAIRMAN: Develops

2L

wond

pant of the conspinacy theory

CHAIRMAN: But you ane awane the

t2

15

is

not

nefenence, but, yeah, y€S, sin.

11

t4

CnowdStnike

REEKER:

I'm sonry, that's

ane

My experience.

a deep undenstanding of the subject

matten.
REEKER: YeS.

22

AMBASSADOR

23

THE CHAIRMAN: And

if

nesponsibility of

one

fon Uknaine policy, he would dig into Ukraine.

And

so

24

of the

25

he alneady had nesponsibility

Thnee Amigos

he had been given

in Uknaine, connect.

UNCLASS

I EIED

 UNCLASS I

AMBASSADOR

1

REEKER: He had been

2

fon -- I don't

3

but he had been doing this fon
THE

4

nememben when he was

CHAIRMAN: And so

some

186

FIED

the Special Repnesentative

appointed, long before

my

time,

time, yeah.

in panticulan if

he was charged

of interacting with Giuliani

5

on responsibility

6

familianized himself with the issues Giuliani

7

and

with on took

he would have

had been

raising publicly

the -- and thein nelationship to U.S.-Uknalne nelations.

10

I don't want to go too fan because we didn't
have those conversations, so I don't know how much he delved into it.
He did mention to me that was going to tny to talk to Rudy and help

11

him undenstand, you know, what we were tnying

8
9

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

THE CHAIRMAN:

L2

In the

same way you wene

to

do now

with Zelensky.

being thonough, though,

13

making sune you undenstood the backgnound, you would have expected

74

he'd be doing the same, night.
AMBASSADOR

15

REEKER:

Yeah. I

16

just can't testify to any specifics

17

it.

18
19

THE CHAIRMAN: Now,

that

you were asked

because we

--

you had

is thonough. I

didn't talk

about

nesponsibility for

REEKER: Uh-hUh.

AMBASSADOR

2L

THE CHAIRMAN:

22

AMBASSADOR

23

THE CHAIRMAN: And

25

on

Kunt

about 50 countnies.

20

24

I think

mean,

that

REEKER: YCAh.

nesponsibility fon
AMBASSADOR

Is that night?
at this time Ambassadon Volken had

one.

REEKER: We11,

he's the unpaid special

UNCLASS I

FIED

govennment

 187

UNCLASS]FIED

1

employee
THE CHAIRMAN:

2
3

had

REEKER:

Yeah.

I

to

AIV1BASSADOR

5

THE CHAIRMAN:

want

Connect

just saying so he

.

ask you about the

anticle,

it with me, that came out today appanently

5

have

7

testimony.
You voiced suppont

8

10

as a nap, I'm

a panticulan focus on Uknaine.

4

9

I don't mean it

levels of the State

and

I

don't

about youn expected

fon a statement coming out from the highest

Depantment supponting Ambassadon Yovanovitch, did

you not?

11

AMBASSADOR

t2

pnocess we tnied

REEKER:

I did on a couple of occasions. In that

to

fon a stnongen statement.

push

Kent was very stnongly

THE CHAIRMAN: And Ambassadon

13

in favon of

t4

a statement coming from the top of suppont fon Yovanovitch. Is that

15

right.
REEKER:

Yes.

Yes.

16

AMBASSADOR

t7

THE CHAIRMAN: And Ambassadon

it.

Indeed, that ended up becoming

18

about

19

that statement

ended up becoming pant

AMBASSADOR

2t

THE CHAIRIVIAN: Laten.

22

MR. REEKER. Yeah,

23

became focused on

24

word do we use

of the

felt

even mone strongly

-- the failune to

pnoduce

neason why he would nesign.

REEKER: LAten.

20

25

McKinley

this

in Septemben. I believe

when

Ambassadon McKin1ey

-- at the time that the tnanscnipt,

to descnibe, the telephone call
THE CHAIRMAN: The call necond.
UNCLASS

I FIED

on what

 UNCLASS

2

REEKER: The

AIVIBASSADOR

1

call

188

IFIED

necord was neleased and had these

nea1Iy unpleasant statements about Masha.
THE CHAIRMAN: And so

3

there was a fainly unifonm view that it

4

would be necessany, appnopniate, impontant,

5

fnom the top

6

diplomat,

REEKER:

8

THE CHAIRMAN: And

9

AIVIBASSADOR

THE CHAIRMAN: NOW

TL

AMBASSADoR

CONNCCt.

yet the

REEKER:

10

wond you

got back

was

no,

connect?

CONNCCt.

--

REEKER: No additional statement, fnom

the statement

put out.

THE CHAIRMAN:

73

WeIl, yeah. 0f counse the nequest was not fon

15

in terms of press guidance, it
statement on its own menits, standing on its own two feet, of

15

for the

L4

what you had alneady put out

Ambassadon,

AMBASSADOR

77

supenb

Ambassadon Yovanovitch.

AMBASSADOR

we had

have a statement

of the State Department expnessing suppont fon this

7

L2

helpful to

was

a

suppont

right.

REEKER:

Yeah.

We

descnibed

what they sent up wene the ideas, and

18

of

19

the Under Secnetany.

20

THE CHAIRMAN:

21

AMBASSADOR

22

THE CHAIRMAN: And

23

AMBASSADOR

24

THE CHAIRMAN: Was

25

AMBASSADOR

that

in the dnaft, I think,
came back as

a no fnom

That came back as a no fnom the Under Secnetany.

REEKER: Fnom

that

the Under Secnetany's office.

was Unden Secnetary Hale.

REEKER: CONTCCI.

of issuing a statement.
REEKER: I don't know. I just got back the answen.
Hale suppontive

UNCLASS ]

FIED

 UNCLASS I

2

in eanlien testimony, he had
suggested that Masha nelease hen statement. In fact, I think you asked

3

me about

1

No, he had, as

5

6
7

10

But he neven expnessed to you opposition to

issuing a statement, did

he.

I don't -- I mean, what I got back fnom his
office was the no. The pnocess, it did not -- P says no statement.
AIvIBASSADOR

REEKER:

THE CHAIRMAN: Ane you awane

8
9

had mentioned

that, sin.

THE CHAIRMAN:

4

I

189

FIED

actually submitted his

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

15

THE CHAIRMAN: Does

16

AMBASSADOR

t7

THE CHAIRII4AN: Yes.

18

AMBASSADOR

19

THE CHAIRMAN: Would

It

the Counselon

the Secnetany of State.

25

neaI1y

know.

Depantment

make a

decision at odds with

officials without consulting

I just don't know. You'd have to ask him.
couldn't tel} you. He's my supenion and I

AMBASSADOR

I

been. I don't

REEKER: Counse}on.

2L
22

may have

REEKER: U]nich.

the unifonm view of top State

24

the nequest fon the

the -- what's the title of his position?

20

23

Unden Secnetany

I do not know what he did.
THE CHAIRMAN: The decision to tunn down the statement, that
wouldn't be made by Ulnich Bnechbuhl on his own, would it.

t4

13

the

statement.
REEKER:

L2

whethen

own nequest on supponted

AMBASSADOR

1.L

of

REEKER:

THE CHAIRIvIAN: Do

you have any neason

not to issue the statement ultimately
UNCLASS

to believe that the decision

came fnom anyone othen

I FIED

than the

 UNCLASS I

L
2

Sec neta

ry

.

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

I can't speculate on that.

3

that the answen came back fnom the

4

be no statement.

5

6
7

8
9

THE

CHAIRMAN:

I

pnesume

that

Under Secnetany

if

A11

I

know

that there

would

out. Is that fair to say
AIVIBASSADoR REEKER: If the Secnetany wants something,
that initiative, yes.

one would have been sent

he can take

THE CHAIRMAN: MN. MAIiNOWSKi.

MR. MALINOWSKI: Thank you.

11

WeII, just picking up on that, the

Unden Secnetany

fon Political

Affains is the thind nanking official in the State Depantment, connect?
REEKER: CONTCCI.

13

AMBASSADOR

L4

MR. MALINOWSKI. So

the second nanking would be D, the Deputy

15

Secnetany, and then the Secnetary

16

Counselon.

of State.

A11 thnee

the outnank the

18

is the Counselon's role in the State Depantment
tnaditionally? I'm not talking about a panticulan individual,

19

tnaditionally what is that job?

17

20
2T

22
23

24
25

is

the Secnetany wanted a statement

10

L2

190

F]ED

What

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

In

some

but

administrations thene has been no

Counselor. Other times the Counselon has had a veny pnominent no1e.

I believe Counselon Brechbuhl is -- I mean, he is one of the people
that I deal with centainly on all pensonnel messages personnel
mattens -- at the leveI that we'ne talking about, how to staff
embassies, who to put fonwand as potential nominees.
UNCLASS]TIED

 191

UNCLASS ]

1

2

MR. MALIN0WSKI:

Secnetany

REEKER:

AIvIBASSADOR

4

MR. MALINOWSKI:

know

that to be a fact. I don't.

WeIl, you know the -- you've been in the Foreign

REEKER: That ' s up to the Secretany,

AMBASSADOR

7

MR. MALINOWSKI:

9

I don't

sense.

Senvice fon --

6

8

Right. But he doesn't outnank the Under

fon Po1itica1 Affains in any fonmal

3

5

FIED

sin. I

don

't

--

Okay. But his authonity, but the Counselon's

authonity denives fnom the Secnetany, in othen wonds.
AMBASSADOR

REEKER: ConTect.

10

MR. MALINOWSKI:

LT

AMBASSADOR

12

MR. MALINOWSKI.

In

any administnation.

is not a confinmed position.
Exactly. So if an Unden Secnetary of State wene

REEKER: He

L4

to get wond fnom the Counselon that thene should be no statement and
it is the consensus view of evenybody wonking on this issue in the

15

Depantment

16

the Counselon's view on his instnuctions would only be definitive if

t7

evenyone assumed that he was nepnesenting

18

penhaps

19

office

13

20

that thene should

be a statement,

it

would seem

to

me

that

the Secnetany of State

-- is thene an altennative, the White

on

House, Mn. Mulvaney's

?

AMBASSADOR

REEKER: Again,

I don't

know

that that

was

24

-- I don't know anything mone than what I have told you to
the best of my ability.
0n my finst week in this office, when we pnoposed a statement that
would include centain elements that we pnoposed, aften waiting fon

25

feedback we got back an answer fnom the Unden Secnetany, my boss, saying

21
22
23

detenmined

UNCLASS I EIED

 UNCLASS I

T

his office said no statement.
answen was no statement.

I dON't KNOW thAt.
MR. MALINOWSKI: That's what you testified befone, I believe.
MR. REEKER. No, I said he wrote that I had been trying to consult

AIVIBASSADOR

4
5

6
7

10

REEKER:

with Bnechbuhl, but it

was a sepanate chain fnom

MR. MALINOWSKI:

8

9

WeI1, but he'd consuLted with Bnechbuhl, and the

MR. MALINOWSKI.

2

3

between

okay.

Chief of Staff's office on any -- on the
REEKER:

AIVIBASSADOR

L2

MR. MALINOWSKI:

issued

I

the no statement thing.

And ane you awane

the State Department and the White

IL

13

t92

FIED

of any communications

House on
NSC

this question, the

--

AM NOt.

-- with negand to whethen a statement should be

?

18

sin. I know we got a question
fnom -- towand the end of that week, anound the 30th, thene was a
question fnom the NSC, I think fnom Fiona Hill herself penhaps, saying:
Is there a statement about Masha? Is thene a statement of suppont?
And I did not pensonally -- I wasn't pensonally involved in the

19

exchange, but

14
15
16
17

AMBASSADOR

I think they -MR. MALINOWSKI: So that

20
27

suppontive

that the NSC would have been

REEKER:

I just can't

dnaw

that conclusion.

A11

I

know was
MR. MALINOWSKI.

24
25

suggests

of a statement.

AMBASSADOR

22
23

REEKER: No,

it

was going up

Did you clean a dnaft statement with the

the chain?
UNCLASS

I FIED

NSC when

 UNCLASS

AMBASSADOR

L

2

I

used

4

want

6

Let

--

me

so

sonny.

shifting subjects a little bit, I

told a little bit of Presidential

phone

calls

101

with

the Pnesident of the United States speaks on the

a foneign leaden, that foneign leaden is on the
REEKER:

7

AMBASSADOR

8

MR. MALINOWSKI:

9

--

to be, but not anymore.

When

5

I'm not involved in that kind of

REEKER:

MR. MALINOWSKI:

3

193

I FIED

Is this a tnick

call,

you.

phone to

right?

question?

It's a simple question. It's not a tnick

question.

10

AMBASSADOR

REEKER: Yes,

that would be my assumption,

on we have

13

it's the foneign leaden on the other end of the line.
MR. MALINOWSKI : That ' s tnue, sometimes it ' s a Russian comedian.
AMBASSADOR REEKER: It's a nadio station in Kyiv, yeah.

74

MR. MALIN0WSKI: Thene we go.

15

And

11

to

assume

t2

don't

we

also

assume

15

thein foneign ministen,

t7

have a team

18

not

that

that that foreign leaden has staff,

maybe

may be

maybe

thein chief of staff, a secnetany, they

listening in on the

phone

call too?

19

it, but we have to assume that
AMBASSADOR REEKER: I think that's usually a fair --

20

MR. MALINOWSKI:

2L

AMBASSADOR

We may

know

I

Just as we have.

REEKER:

I

Yeah. No,

I think that's usually a fain

-- I often talk to in the Balkans

22

assumption.

23

ministers on my ceIl phone, but fon the Pnesident, a fonmal ca1l, I

24

think that that would be the assumption, yes.

25

mean,

would

MR. MALINOWSKI: And

it

would be safe

UNCLASS

] FIED

to

assume

pnime

that in that

 L94

I FIED

UNCLASS

1

foneign govennment's bureaucnacy they produce a

2

tnanscnipt, that they

3

in thein administnation

4

do

in

thein

own way

on

a

of reponting to relevant people

what was said on

that phone call, just as we

ours?
AMBASSADOR

5

have

summany

REEKER:

That's a fain assumption.

8

this is one neason why we tend to be careful
what we say on these calls, and they'ne not genenally classified at
the highest levels because we have no way of contnolling what -- how

9

the details of that calt ane disseminated on the othen side.

6
7

MR. MALINOWSKI: And

AIVIBASSADOR

10
LT

72
13

REEKER:

0r

who

Exactly. That was my next question. And in
Ukraine one would have to presume thene is anothen great powen that
might conceivably leann what happens on a conversation like that.
MR. MALINOWSKI:

isn't this

one neason why most administnations

t4

And

15

THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want

16

MR. MALINOWSKI:

17

AMBASSADOR

18

else is listening in.

unsecune phone

REEKER:

I

have him nespond

to that.

SONTY.

mean,

I

assume

that any call I

make on an

is being listened to by somebody, including in this

MR. MALINOITISKI:

19

I,M

to

Right.

And

in Uknaine, Russia has veny

20

aggnessive intelligence-gathering openations, we aSsume.

2L

know necessanily know

22

AMBASSADOR

23

24
25

in

town.

tlJe

don't

eveny case.

REEKER: That

is a presumption that

one would make,

yes.
MR. MALINOWSKI:

Okay.

administnations the contents

And

this is also

of a Pnesidential

UNCLASS I

FIED

one reason why most
phone

call with a

 195

UNCLASS I EIED

1

foneign leaden ane shared with oun Ambassadon to that countny, with

2

the Assistant Secnetany, with people who commonly deal with

3

fnom

That has not been my expenience

in this current

administnation.
because you

dealing with youn countenpant in the Uknainian Govennment, our

7

may be

8

Ambassadon may be

9

a

dealing with people, and

difficult position

when

it

sont of puts you

the folks you ane talking to

all

in

know what our

Pnesident said but you don't.
AMBASSADOR

11
L2

in the past.

Connect. But it is sont of logical,

MR. MALINOWSKI:

6

10

connect?

REEKER: That has been my expenience

AI\'IBASSADOR

4
5

that countny. Is that

officials

REEKER: Yeah,

I think that's a fain chanactenization

of diplomacy.
MR. MALINOWSKI:

13
1.4

neasonable

15

is it

--

and,

of

to

neasonable

AIl that is fainly safe to assume. Is it

counse, we

assume

don't

know and you

that if the

Pnesident

don't

know

also

-- but

of Uknaine heand

19

in a phone convensation with the U.S. Pnesident that
concenned him about penhaps U.S. policy veening in a different
dinection fnom whene it had been, that this news would spnead within
the Ukrainian bureaucnacy and that somebody might neach out to a

20

friendly

27

What's going on hene?

22

AMBASSADOR

23

MR. MALINOWSKI:

24

A VIBASSADOR

25

MR. MALINOWSKI:

1.6

t7
18

something

Amenican

contact,

penhaps a fonmen U.S. Ambassadon,

It's not inconceivable,

to

say:

night?

It iS NOt iNCONCCiVAbIC.
Right. And it could happen veny quickly.

REEKER:

REEKER: These days evenything happens veny quickly.

Exactly.

So Mn. Henbst might

UNCLASS

I FIED

very --

and,

 UNCLASS

1

196

FIED

7

again, we don't know and I'm not asking you to suggest you know

2

it's

3

Uknainian

conceivable

--

one

that he might have learned about this

of his many Uknainian
REEKER: That

4

AMBASSADOR

5

MR. MALINOWSKI:

6

Okay.

is penfectly conceivable,

And then

his

many

contacts?
yes.

shifting again, foneign

assistance getting cut happens
REEKER: FTOzeN.

7

AIVIBASSADOR

8

MR. MALINOWSKI: Fnozen, suspended,

9

fnom

-- but

befone,

it

happens

all the time.

We

as has been mentioned

suspend, hold,

cut,

nedinect

t7

to foneign countnies fon multiple neasons, sometimes fon
punposes of conditionality, sometimes because, you know, oun

L2

pnionities

10

assistance

change.

And you

13

testified that

you had no idea and

that the

team wonking

16

held. You knew it had been he1d,
but you didn't know why. You tnied to find out, you didn't know.
AMBASSADOR REEKER: Right, the exact, at least what was filtening

17

up

18

desk

19

50 pencent

L4
15

20
2L
22
23

on Uknaine had no idea why the aid was

to

me fnom

the assistance coondinaton,

-- you know, I
--

was

in

and

of the time. But I

out.

As

fnom Geonge and

the Uknaine

I've said, I tnavel about

was back and we were

getting

still no movement on that. Thene was
definitely a feeling that this was -- this was Mr. Mulvaney who -MR. MALINOWSKI: Right, it was coming fnom thene.
AVIBASSADOR REEKER: -- who affected this, that's night.
updates

was, thene's

24

MR. MALINOWSKI: But you

25

AMBASSADOR

didn't

REEKER: But we

know why.

did not know fon

UNCLASS I

FlED

sune.

 t97
UNCLASS I FTED

MR. MALINOWSKI: Can you

1

think of any, in youn long

Foneign

think of any instances you wene involved with

2

Senvice caneen, can you

3

when

4

cut on suspended on held on whateven, and nobody wonking on that countny

5

knew

aid to an impontant countny, a countny you
why? Is that

wene wonking

on,

was

negulan?

I think it's fain to say that's not negulan.

REEKER:

6

AMBASSADOR

7

MR. MALINOWSKI: Right.

8

AIvIBASSADOR

REEKER:

I'd

have

to go back. I

mean,

it's

possible

1.0

that thene wene cases. I'm just tnying to think of my expenience,
panticulanly in the Balkans. Occasionally Congness will put a fneeze

t7

on somethlng.

9

L2

MR. MALINOWSKI: But you know why when we

13

AMBASSADOR

14

MR. MALINOWSKI:

15

AIVIBASSADOR

16

MR. MALINOWSKI:

L7

people we've been

18

Sondland

is

one

put a fneeze.

but, you know, usually.
Thene used to be secnet holds, I guess.

REEKER: Not always,

. Right.
And then finally,

REEKER: Right

talking about neponted

of

of the -- many of the
to on through you. Ambassadon
most

youn ambassadons, connect?

REEKER: WCII

19

AMBASSADOR

20

MR. MALINOWSKI:

I

mean

--

fonmally speaking.

22

in the Eunopean Buneau of 50
countnies, 49 missions, so 49 chlefs of mission, I don't want to give

23

you the exact pencentage but

24

we nefen

2t

25

AMBASSADOR

REEKER: You know,

to as political

it's

extnemely high, are noncaneer or what

appointees.

Nominally, chiefs of mission, you know, they nepont
UNCLASS

] FIED

-- they ane

 UNCLASS I

198

FIED

1

the pensonal nepresentatives of the President and the Secnetany of

2

State, so they neport to the Secnetany.

3

noncaneen

4

up the phone and they

of these guys, the
people, litenaIly do that, you know, in tenms of they pick

We have

5

talk to

them.

I

knew

a gneat team.

6

experience, which

7

me

I think

a

Many

numben

of

of the

may have one been

them fnom my

EUCOM

neasons they bnought

8

great. Bninging in noncaneen people bnings a 1ot
of strengths, a lot of intenests. We've got, you know, financiers,

9

we've got sponts teams owners, and we've got fonmen genenals and

in.

So

they'ne

admirals. We've got just a very

74

of people.
To say that they nepont to me at the political level is not the
same as the caneen officens who -- fon whom I wnite their evaluation.
MR. MALINOWSKI: Right. But the formal neponting chain is not
dependent on whethen someone is a political appointee on a caneen

15

penson.

10
LL

t2
13

REEKER:

16

AMBASSADOR

L7

MR. MALINOWSKI.

18
19

how

things really

panticulanly

2L

Sondland neponts

23
24
25

In the case of

some

--

I'm not talking about infonmal nelationships,
--

wonk

I realize, Congnessman, you're alluding to
Ambassadon Sondland. I never have felt that Ambassadon

AMBASSADOR

20

22

bnoad nange

REEKER:

to

me.

MR. MALINOWSKI:

Okay. But Ambassadon Taylon, Ambassadon

Yovanovitch would have been in the chain.
AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

Yes.

Ambassador Taylon,

a chief of mission, he's a charge d'affaines at
UNCLASS

I FIED

of counse, is

this point.

not

But yes.

 199

UNCLASSI FIED

1

2

MR. MALINOWSKI:

vensus Yovanovitch

f

mean,

I wasn't so much getting at the Sondland

distinction.

REEKER: OKay.

3

AIVIBASSADOR

4

MR. MALINOWSKI: And

I

know you

5

youn name, but you ane playing the

6

Eunopean

7

8
9

still

have 'iActing"

role of the Assistant Secretany fon

Affains.

AMBASSADOR

REEKER: Connect, which

mission, and panticulanly the

is why I

Ambassadon

MR. MALINOWSKI: And pant

of thls -- I

11

are you not?
REEKER: No,

case.

mean, yoU ane

advison to the Secnetany of State on policy towands

AMBASSADOR

was so focused on the

in Masha's

10

L2

in fnont of

that would be the

all

the chief

these countnies,

Unden Secnetany fon

13

Politica1 Affairs,

as

L4

of countnies.

fon Uknaine I would say the chief advison was Kunt

15

Volken.

16

So

well as the special nepnesentatives fon a vaniety

MR. MALINOWSKI: We11,

t7

Ambassadon, but

18

Holbnooke.

I have known eveny penson to occupy this job since Dick
REEKER: So have

19

AMBASSADOR

20

MR. MALINOI^JSKI: And

to

what you have said

22

in my anea of openation.

24
25

I

I.

have never heand anybody

us today,

2L

23

this is more of a comment than a question,

that I

am

in this job say

not in charge of a countny

I'd like you to clanify. I don't know whene
I've said I am not in change of what?
MR. MALINOWSKI: 0f Uknaine policy. It's an impontant countny
AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

UNCLASS

] FIED

 200

UNCLASS

L

in the

EUR.

AMBASSADOR

2

I FIED

REEKER: A

decision, as I've explained to you,

was

that Uknaine policy was being implemented

3

taken and made clean to

4

and Ied by Ambassadon Volken, Ambassadon Sondland, and

5

the Secnetany of Enengy, with the complete suppont of the President

6

and

the

me

Secnetany.

that's absolutely clean. I
again, this is mone of a comment than a question. It's

8

just

9

stunning and veny impontant fact.

in

change

of

Uknaine

10

t,rlho's

LL

AIVIBASSADOR

L2

MR. MALINOWSKI: We11,

L4
15
16

an extent

MR. MALINOWSKI: We1I,

7

13

to

REEKER:

a

policy now? The Thnee Amigos

Ultimately the Secnetany.

I

undenstand, but

this

annangement

is

no

mone. Is that --

conrect. As I testified eanlien, you
may have been out of the noom and fongive me if you wenen't, we have
discussed that. I've looked fon guidance on how do we handle this.
AMBASSADOR

Now,

L7

REEKER: No,

obviously,

Geonge Kent continues

18

nole, as any of the seven DAS's do,

19

at

whene

to play a veny -- the key

without Kunt we have to look

2t

wiII take on certain noles.
Kunt was involved in some of the meetings with international,
Eunopean countenpants, and fon now we've said it's between the Unden

22

Secnetany, myself as Acting Assistant Secnetary, and the Deputy

23

Assistant Secnetany and the Pnincipal Deputy Assistant Secnetany as

24

needed, and thene

25

depending on

20

who

is

oun Deputy Assistant Secretany

fon

Russia,

the specific need, topic, Ieve1 of a meeting, on an
UNCLASSl FIED

 207
UNCLASS I

1
2

F]ED

engagement.

That's what we'11 do pending whethen thene

is a new Special

3

Repnesentative fon Uknaine brought on board on whethen we'11 just

4

manage

5

6
7

the pontfolio with existing

MR. MALINOWSKI: So

neally

know

night

you'ne in a kind of holding pattern, You don't

now.

REEKER: We'ne

AMBASSADOR

pensonnel.

just

moving forwand, You know.

I

Obviously, the Ambassadon, on the Charge d'Affaines

9

Ambassadon Taylon who has netunned

10

to Kyiv, is also cnucial on the

gnound.

11

MR. MALINOWSKI: Does he have youn

L2

AMBASSADOR

13

MR. MALINOWSKI: Does he have

t4

AMBASSADOR

15

MR. MALINOWSKI:

15

THE CHAIRIVIAN: MN. GO}dMAN.

REEKER: Ambassadon

a

Taylon?

Yes.

to

full

confidence.

ask the Secnetany.

Thank you.

Of youn 50 countnies that you ovensee, is

19

whene thene was

20

policy

this the only

one

this irregulan annangement fon implementing U.S.

?

2t

A I just

22

Sondland gets involved

23

Thene was not

24

tnying to do a full thing.

25

confidence?

the Secnetany's

REEKER: You'd have

Okay.

full

BY MR. GOLDMAN:

L7

18

in the case of

want

to

make sune

that's connect. I

in a numben of othen places, but to a less extent.

the unique gnoup that

The Secnetany

mean, Ambassadon

was

did necently, at
UNCLASS

taking

change

thene. I'm just

my necommendation,

I FIED

aften

some

 UNCLASS

202

I F]ED

1

discussion appoint a Special Repnesentative fon the westenn Balkans,

2

who

3

4
5

is also the DAS, Matthew

Palmen, someone

I've

wonked

with on Balkans

if not decades. And so he has a panticular no1e,
still neponting to me, but it's not at all the same. I would say that
Uknaine is the only one, yeah.
issues fon yeans,

a

5

And ane thene any othen countnies

within

youn

pontfolio

whene

7

the Pnesident himself has directed who should handle policy fon that

8

count ry?

A I couldn't

9

say specifically

10

what the Pnesident may have said

11

othens who report

t2

know,

13

Secretany.

L4
15
16
L7

18

in terms of, you know, exactly

in terms of selecting

ambassadons and

to him. But in tenms of the bnoaden policies they
I mean, I take that dinection fnom the Unden Secretany to the

a That's the nonmal channel?
A Yes.
a The fact that the Pnesident dinected Ambassadon SondIand,
Ambassador Volken, and Secnetary Perny to be involved in Uknaine is
an irnegulan channel, an innegulan path in U.S. diplomacy, connect?

20

A I wouldn't describe it as negulan. The President himself
necently announced, in addition to oun Special Repnesentative fon

27

western Ba1kans, he announced that the Ambassador to

22

be the Special Pnesidential Envoy fon Kosovo-Senbia Peace

23

Negotiations. Thene's an example, I

19

UNCLASS ]

suppose.

FIED

Genmany

would also

 203
UNCLASS

1

I FIED

[6:03 p.m.]
BY MR. GOLDMAN:

2

a I mean, but that's an official title.

3

4

in his nole when Ambassadon Yovanovitch

5

did not exist.

A
a
A
a

6
7

8

was

Ambassadon Volken was

thene and this annangement

How do you mean?

He was

in his nole.

Right.

11

didn't say that the Pnesident dinected Ambassadon
Yovanovitch and Ambassadon Volken to handle Uknaine policy, night?
A Volken was -- as fan as I necall, was bnought in this nole

t2

unden

13

thene.

9
10

And you

the Tillenson

--

when Secnetany

A I undenstand that.

74

Tillenson was stil1

But my point

15

are diffenent than the annangement we're

16

that's the question fon you.

t7

to

Ane

is that these special

still
envoys

talking about hene today.

And

the special envoys that you ane tnying

equate with the situation --

19

A I'm not -- you asked me bnoad questions, I'fi just tnying to
answen them. You asked am I awane ane of any situation, so I'm just

20

tnying to do

18

2t

to give you the bnoad anray among these 50
countnies. But no, this was cleanly, as I've now said numenous times

22

in this deposition, this

23

It

24

to the EU was involved in this. If that

25

and

stnuck

me

my

best

was

inregulan; that

was

the wond that was used.

as innegulan long befone I got hene that the

the Secnetany, then obviously, that
UNCLASS

was

was

] FIED

Ambassadon

the choice of Pnesident

thein choice,

and Gondon

 UNCLASS I

1

with a set of skiIls.

comes

a

2

204

FlED

You've also discussed a 1ot today,

DAS

Kent, who you would,

6

I think, agnee, wouldn't you, that he's centainly a Uknaine expent?
A Yes.
a And how many countnies does he ovensee?
A He ovensees six, thnee in the Office of Eastenn Eunopean

7

Affairs,

8

as CARC, the Caucasus and Regional

9

Azenbaijan and the Minsk pnocess, which

3

4
5

10

the

which

is Uknaine, Belarus,

and Moldova, and then what

Conflict.
is

under

is

known

So Geongia, Anmenia,
OSCE

which deals with

Nagonno-Kanabakh issue.

a

1.1

12

among

13

thene

And

is it

accurate

to

say

that he has a panticulan expertise

those countnies that he covens in Uknaine, given his expenience
?

15

A Yes. He speaks the language. He was the Deputy Chief of
Mission until -- weIl, my undenstanding is, I couldn't te11 you exactly

16

when he came back,

t7

Mitche1l.

74

18

but we was bnought back by Assistant Secnetany

a I know. I was just asking, does he have particulan

20

in Uknaine?
A Yes, absolutely.

27

confident,

22

a team that you can nely on that handles these things.

19

yoU

know.

When

Which

why

expertise

I rely on him and feel

so

fully

you'ne a managen and an executive, you build

24

a
A

So Geonge has been

25

a

And

23

is

Wess

Right.

in panticular,

a

critical

pant of that.

given that you coven 50 countnies,

UNCLASS

I FIED

you

 205

UNCLASS

L

I FIED

nely on him, especially heavily fon Uknaine mattens, night,

3

of his expentise?
A Right.

4

dinectons, deputies, desk officens.

2

a

5

And

because

his team, he's got a gneat team of office

And so what you've descnibed hene today

is essentially that

6

the detailed work of State Depantment related to Uknaine, pnimanily

7

nan thnough Geonge

8

the Presidential directive and

9

Sondland and Volken?

A

10

And whateven
Rudy

Giuliani

7t

oniginal

L2

which

13

meeting they had, which was

L4

And why he was

15

in Ben1in and Panis thnough the so-ca1led

16

agneements

77

by Russia.

is

was Special Repnesentative

why he engaged

And

18

else was going on, in tenms of
was nun thnough Ambassadon

I think that's a fain chanactenization.

Yeah,

title

Kent.

Kunt Volken's

fon Uknaine negotiations,

with his Russian countenpart up until the last

in

Januany

of

2O18,

to tny to

move fonwand.

the point person with oun Eunopean colleagues and allies

that

wene supposed

Nonmandy pnocess and

the Minsk

to be implemented but neven have been

that nole of his expanded. He took on much mone engagement

in

20

became

27

course, with the election, as I've descnibed alneady, and the team that

22

was assembled,

23

emenged

24
25

tenms

of

in the pness. He's veny effective with it.

19

messaging

a point person

in contact

on

the bnoaden

policy.

And

He

then, of

the delegatlon to attend the Zelensky inaugunation, then

this -- this tniumvinate, I guess. Is that the night wond?
a DAS Kent is a meticulous employee, connect?
A I would use that wond, I think. He's extnemely smant,
UNCLASS I

FIED

 UNCLASS

collegial,

the negions, both Uknaine, and the Eastenn

L

extnemely

2

Eunope, and the Caucasus extnemely well.

3

a

4

nelated

knows

Did you even

206

I EIED

come acnoss any memos

to file that he wrote

to Uknaine oven the past 6 months?
A Oh, I would have to go back and see. You know, he sent a

5

7

Iot of email in those eanly days, panticulanly -- I was so new to it,
and as I've said, tnying to undenstand where was this coming fnom, what

8

was

6

this

a

9

10

about.

But do any jump out at you, as you

necalling any specific

11

A

No.

12

a

You

memos

to file

don't necall a memo to

13

he wrote nelated

14

to investigate

to

sit here, in terms of

and concenns

file

that he had?

on on about August 16th

Ambassadons Sondland and

that

Volken, and any pnessune

Uknaine?

2t

A I don't believe so, no. August 16th.
a And that memo to file is not in youn 4 inch binder thene?
A No. I would not think so. And I would imagine a memo to
file sounds to me like something classified, but I don't know, and this
is obviously not.
a WeI1, we wene infonmed that it was not classified. In fact,
there was anothen memo to file that he wnote on on about Septemben 15th.

22

Does

that one ring a bell nelated to a meeting that he had in

23

with

Ambassadon

15

16
L7

18
19

20

24
25

A

Taylon and a Uknainian official?

Not ninging a bel1 night away.

would have

Uknaine

to go and look back and check.
UNCLASS I EIED

It is the kind of thing I

 207

UNCLASSIFIED

a

1

How

about one mone recently

2

specifically to the subpoena that the

3

committees

in this investigation.

A I --

4

when

in early Octoben, nelated
Department neceived from the

Wene

you familian with

the subpoena came -- I

that one?

mean, Geonge was sont of

6

finst one in this pnocess, and I was tnaveling with the Secnetary
in ItaIy, and the Balkans, and Gneece. And I heand fnomthe Pnincipal

7

Deputy, who

8

been some, yoU know,

9

out -- I'm just -- I don't necall specifically the fonmat or what I

5

the

of course was acting,

fairly

Ambassadon Conmack,

that thene

acnimonious meetings, and he had

had

laid

11

if this was nelayed to me, what happened in that experience,
which was, you know, which he was laying out in not a positive

t2

expenience.

10

saw on

L7

a Did you have any connespondence with Ambassadon McKinley
aften this investigation came to light and befone he nesigned?
A He sent me an email in New Yonk. I'm pnetty sune it's not
in hene, on the Satunday -- let's nefer to the tnusted -- ah. Thank
you. Thank you. I have counsel, it is in hene. Okay. And all that

18

pninting.

13

74
15
16

So Satunday, Septemben

19

28th.

And he

did

send an email saying,

a stnong statement of suppont fon

20

the

27

pnofessionalism and counage

22

Yovanovitch.

23

Pnesident's caLl - - fon pnofessionalism and counage, pnefenably today.

24

Anticles ane pnolifenating and we should comment, not Least

25

it is the night thing to do, and it is cnitical to send a message to

Depantment should issue

"

-- the subject line is

hen

"Masha

This is aften the transcnipt of the telephone caII, the

UNCLASS I EIED

because

 UNCLASS I

L

oun colleagues

that

208

FIED

we suppont oun people.

2

I nesponded to him at Ll:27 a.m. saying, I fully agnee.

3

would be the Eunopean Buneau, had pnoposed statements back

4

May, when centain media wene

5

6
7

8

in

that

Apni1,

full thnottle. And I said, you may want
to include Cano1 Perez in pensonnel and human nesounces in the
discussion. And I think I don't have the funthen, but I necall that
he then sent it, including Canol and she said, I agnee too, and
that's -- that was my word fnom him.
Did you have any funthen convensations with anyone supenion

a

9

LL

to you about such a statement?
A I received a phone call

L2

said

10

EUR,

--

because

I

was

fnom Unden Secnetany Ha1e,

who

at lunch -- I left lunch, a wonking lunch,

and

16

left that to take a call in the openations centen. And he said, you
know, this email that -- I haveto panaphnase because I don't nememben
exactly, but it was essentially, I don't think this is going to go
anywhene. And I said, lrleIl -- I nesponded that I think we should issue

L7

a statement.

13

L4
15

19

Did he explain why he didn't think

a

18

anywhene

it

was going

to go

?

2L

A I don't recaLl him saying anything beyond that. The
spokesperson was also on this, so, when Ambassador McKin1ey sent the

22

email he included David HaIe and both spokespenson Ortagus on that end.

23

I'm not sune I even saw any nesponse, funthen

20

a

24
25

to

Did he

nesponse.

-- did Unden Secnetany Hale say that he had spoken

anyone supenior

to

him befone reaching the conclusion
UNCLASS] FIED

that

he

didn't

 209

UNCLASSIEIED

1

think it

A At that stage, I don't believe so, because I think it

2

3

was going happen?
was

really night aften that.

a

4

Do you

-- was it

youn impnession

that Unden Secnetany

5

himself objected to the idea of a statement

6

Yovanovitch

A
a
A

7

8
9

in suppont of Ambassadon

?

That
Would

I couldn't
that

be consistent

WeII, he had

in

charactenize.

that we've alneady discussed at length, he'd said

pnocess back

11

his office had said no statement.

Manch

a Right.

with the David HaIe that you know?

-- he had, you know, said eanlien in the earlien

10

t2

But thene was also an email you

13

Bneckbuhl whene they mentioned two

74

statement henself - -

things:

A

15

recall with Ulrich

Yovanovitch self-defense

A Uh-huh.
a -- and a statement fnom the Department.

15

Hale

Do you

necall that

L7

email whene thene was a discussion of those two ideas that wene being

18

fed up the

A I think I cited that.
a You did.
A Let me find it again, just to tny to nefnesh exactly.

19

20
27
22

chain?

see,

this

Let's

would have been anound 31, 33.

24

a Maybe while your lawyen Iooks, I can move on to something
else. You had -- let me ask you this: Do you necaIl on do you know

25

whethen

23

in youn binden, othen than the documents
UNCLASS

I FIED

we

discussed, you have

 2t0

UNCLASS] FIED

additional nelevant

1

any

2

came

3

that's panticulanly

documents fnom Geonge Kent,

or any SOCs that

out of the intenagency meetings? Is thene anything eLse in thene

4

A

5

nelated

5

a

nelevant?

I wouldn't have SOCs. I don't believe I have anything
to that. I may on othen systems, but I don't.
No,

And do you

necall seeing, in youn neview of youn emails,

7

anything else such as that July 29th email that nefenences the Pnesident

8

asking Uknaine to conduct an investigation of the Bidens?

9

anything else that nelates

10

Giuliani

11

A

to the Biden investigation,

Do

on

you have

to

Rudy

?

Thene's centainly

lots of

is

pness things

that

wene being

13

this was cinculating veny
widely as, one might say, speculation or this was one of those

1.4

nannatives.

15

this quite openly.

12

fonwanded

a

16

in this.

As evenyone

awane,

And, you know, as we've discussed, Mn.

Wene

--

Giuliani

was saying

are thene any emails where you and any of

t7

supenions wene discussing Mn.

18

he was advocating?

youn

Giuliani on these investigations that

2t

A I think only the ones that I fonwanded up saying, hene ane
the -- hene's the, sort of, a sampling ofthe pness on what is dniving
this in the eanly nannative the very eanly days in the first couple

22

of

19

20

23
24
25

weeks.

a

But nothing

after, Let's say, May 28th in that meeting with

Secretany Pompeo that you necall fnom youn review of youn documents?

A

No,

just -- I don't think there wene any funthen emails.
UNCLASS I

FIED

 2LL
UNCLASS

1

a

2

of emails to

But suffice

A I

3

4

came fnom

5

And

pnepane

was

I F]ED

it to say that you printed out this
fon youn testimony

gnoup

-- I --

these

today?

tnying to gnasp. You know, I went to

e-files that I tnied to save.

select

So

I had one that said "Masha. "

8

this Masha thing, which was, again, Iitenally cneated my second
day on something because all this was coming out. I was veny concenned.
I was just tnying to understand, finst of aII, whene was this going
on, not only fon my own -- whene was this coming fnom, and what nea11y

9

was going on hene, what was

6
7

10

we

a

L1
L2

take care of

to the

dniving

hen.

But would you agree that

subpoena

this, but a1so, focus on how do

that

was sent by

all

these emails wene nesponsive

the committees to the State Depantment?

L4

A I could assume that. I don't know the response to that. I
think it is done automatically, so I don't know what they pulled out,

15

but

13

16

a

Last question befone we go back to the minonity on your

t7

documents. In your neview of youn WhatsApp messages, are thene

18

othen WhatsApp messages between you and Ambassadon Volken, you

19

Ambassadon

20
27
22
23

24
25

Taylor? I think you said who e1se,

any
and

Masha?

A Masha.
a Ambassadon Sondland? And Masha?
A I don't have WhatsApp with Gondon.
a Ambassadon Sondland and who the fourth? Thene was a founth?
A Taylon, Volken, Masha and Kent, Geonge.
a Okay.
UNCLASS I EIED

 UNCLASS I

A

t
2

can't

4

rememben whene he was

a

3

And Geonge was veny

212

FIED

bnief. It

was

tnaveling that

Ane thene any othens

just a peniod when -- I

it

was

that nefenence the

investigation, on Rudy Giu1iani, or

difficult to -Biden-Burisma

2@t6 election?

6

A I think we covened it when we went oven the finst one.
Masha's didn't. It was more the finst part of my Masha exchanges on

7

WhatsApp was about whethen she was

8

which was anothen, sont

9

it

5

was

the

intenested in the position at

of, task I

had before

all this hit,

EUCOM,

and then

exchange.

11

a Right. I undenstand there ane othen topics. I'm asking
specifically if thene are any other neferences to these investigations,

t2

Biden, Bunisma, Giuliani,

10

2OL6?

A I mentioned to you, Bill

13

Taylon's concenns when he said, I'm

to go. I believe

L4

still

15

chainman bnought up

16

Giuliani-Biden issue,

17

don't know -- I'm not sure the Secnetary can give me any neassunance

18

on

19

feel reassuned.

20

of

2t

stnuggling with the decision whethen

this issue.
WhatsApp

a

And

Bill refenring to the

of counse, then

we

did

have

the meeting and he did

Bill -- they headed off and that was the end

with 8i11.

Wel1, why don't we do

believe youn counsel

23

about.

25

was

will likely persist for the next yean. And I

And then

22

24

Giu1iani, Biden; this

the

may have

this,

oun

time

is up. If

found that othen email that

maybe

we wene

-- I

asking

A I find one mention of Giuliani, and we can find this email,
this is in an exchange with Geonge, who is on the 27th of May, he had
UNCLASS I

F]ED

 2L3
UNCLASS I EIED

that to me.

7

talked to Masha.

2

suggestions neganding pness guidance on the latest media about her.

3

She had alneady come back by

4

we

5

wanted us

6

name hen and me,

--

she wants

this point.

wanted us

to

that would

She

--

She had two asks and

she said

if

possible,

say we stand up fon the embassy.

to stand up fon the embassy,

And so

7

--

He was nelaying

because

She

Giuliani did not just

be Geonge, but denignated the whole embassy.

that's the only othen refenence to Giuliani

because he

did.

attacked, you know, quite -- to me, I found it personally insulting

8

He

9

and outnageous. Gnoup of, you know, an incnedibly stnong embassy

10

that's well-known for

11

whethen

having a gneat team

that

does amazing neponting,

L4

it is a countny
undengoing gneat change duning elections, difficulty, and then get
swamped with all of this. And yet this gentleman who is on the -- you
know, all oven the media denignating oun embassies, which is -- and

15

oun Foreign Senvice

t6

that that

t2
13

it is essentially pantially

officens.

a wan zone, whethen

And you know,

that's not the only place

happens.

L7

MR. GOLDMAN:

18

AMBASSADOR

I

I yield to the minonitY

REEKER:

0h, did you want to

can be complete. The email

that

--

sonry, just to

we wene looking

19

back, so

20

the one that Hale sent on Manch 28th to myself copying

2L
22
23

fon

was

Geonge saying,

I've tnied sevenal times to get guidance fnom Ulnich, to no avail. I
suggest Phil call to see if we can okay, A, fon use of social media
self-defense, and B, nelease of a Depantment statement.
BY MR. GOLDMAN:

24
25

come

a

Who was

that fnom,

sonny?

UNCLASSIFIED

 UNCLASS

1

2

A

That was fnom David Hale

a
A

Suggesting

2L4

I FIED

to

me and George Kent.

that you call Mr.

Bnechbuhl?

6

tried several times to get guidance. I suggest Phil
call to see if we can, what I just nead you. And I'd -- I nesponded
that I inquined to C's availability. That was the 28th. And then,
of counse, laten that week, we got the message fnom his office saying

7

"no statement.

3

4
5

He had

"

8

MR. GOLDMAN: Thank you.

9

MR. MEADOWS: Mn. Chainman, may

I

inquine about how much more time

10

do you have? That may dictate what we do on oun

11

done

72
13

L4

side.

Are you

all

?

MR. GOLDMAN: We ane

-- I just

have

a couple of follow-up

questions.
MR. MEADOWS:

Is that a congnessional

couple?

2I

I think we ane 5 on 10 -MR. MEAD0WS: -- on is that a Goldman couple?
THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think we'11 go thnough whole anothen
nound, I hope.
MR. MEADOWS: So Mn. Ambassadon, I want to kind of close out. I
think we'ne going to just keep oun questions veny limited. I don't
want to -- maybe clanify a couple of things. Finst, thank you for youn

22

senvice, fon youn continued senvice. And centainly, as you'ne going

23

thnough the pnocess as acting, awaiting fon confinmation --

15
16
L7
1,8

19

20

24
25

MR. GOLDMAN:

AMBASSADOR

been nominated

REEKER: Excuse me,

sin, just to clanify, I

to the position.
UNCLASS I

FIED

have never

 215

UNCLASSlFIED

MR. MEADOWS:

L

2

connect

So

you'ne

just in the acting nole. Is that

?

AIvIBASSADOR

3

Okay.

REEKER:

Yes. Technically I

was infonmed that

4

the -- he's leaving fon -- that the Vacancies Act

5

that --

aften all

6

to the Vacancies Act, I have used up the time
available or the time whene I'm allowed to be formally known as the

7

Acting Assistant Secnetany.

acconding

8

MR. MEADOWS: So

9

AMBASSADOR

you've used up over 270 --

REEKER:

--

Yes. That sounds nlght.

I

Time

flies

when

the Legal Advison's

10

you'ne having fun

11

Office, I think, on the

L2

technically, I should be nefenned to as the senion buneau official.

13

And

and so

human

was infonmed by

-- or the pensonnel

people that,

I

t4

MR. MEADOWS:

15

AIvIBASSADOR

L6

MR. MEADOWS:

17

AMBASSAD0R

18

MR. MEADOWS:

19

So

let

me

WeII,

REEKER:

Ambassadon Senion Bureau

I've

been

called an

S0B

Official.

but never an SB0.

I won't nefen to you in that way.
REEKER: I just want that on the necond.
Yeah. I'm not nonmally speechless, but you got me.

go back

to two or three diffenent things.

Youn nole

20

night now, the way that you view it ovenseeing the 50 diffenent

2t

countnies and going fonwand, you

22
23

24
25

feel like you have fainly clean
dinection in tenms of whene you need to be going? And I'11 let you
answen that finst.

sin. I mean, I came -- you know, as
I've testified, this was not something I expected non aspired to. But
AMBASSADOR

REEKER: Yes,

UNCLASS ]

FIED

 UNCLASS I

1

as I said,

2

you

3

4
5

6

my

wife and I discussed

MR. MEADOWS: Right.

8

AIvIBASSADOR

10

when

the Secnetany of State asks

to do something and you'ne a Foneign Senvice officen, you don't
say no. And my commanden, boss at Eunopean Command, Genenal
Scapanotti, undenstood that, fully supponted the decision. And so my
undenstanding was I was coming back to pnovide leadership in the Buneau
to take cane of the people, to ovensee the seven --

7

9

276

F]ED

policies that
into place.

REEKER: On I would say

DAS's

continuity of the

the stnategies that had been put

had been established,

And not

eight

just leadenship of the Buneau but engagement, and

13

it often
publicly when I said so, what do you want me to do? Engagement is key
that the Secretany said, even when we diffen; if you criticize without

L4

engagement,

L7

t2

15

engagement being a key wond the Secnetany

18

And

I

mention

that leads to estnangement, and that's not what we want,
so that's pantially why I spent a 1ot of time on the noad.
said about 50 percent of youn time on the

MR. MEADOWS: And you

16

t7

said.

road.
AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

It

hAS bCCN 5O/5O.

23

to tnavel and do that, continue to
tnavel with Secnetary Pompeo fnom time to time?
AMBASSADOR REEKER: When he goes to Eunopean destinations,
genenally I do, not eveny single time, but usually I do. And then,
I often will nepnesent him at centain things whene he just can't be

24

every place that ministenials

19

20
2L
22

25

MR. MEADOWS: You continue

on

MR. MEADOWS: So would you say

that you stil1

UNCLASS I

FIED

have the confidence

 2L7

UNCLASS I

L

of

Secnetary

Pompeo?

AMBASSADOR

3

MR. MEADOWS:

WeIl, since you've been hene today. I think that

So wene you even infonmed by any Uknainian

in the foneign

official

about a delay

aid?

AMBASSADOR

7
8

yestenday.

probably bodes well.

5
6

I believe so, as of

REEKER:

2

4

FIED

REEKER:

No. I just haven't had, you know, othen than

sont of meeting Pnesident Zelensky.

10

It's fine. I didn't think so.
AI4BASSADOR REEKER: I'm not the channel of communication.

11

MR. MEADOWS: My colleague

MR. MEADOWS:

9

call.

opposite earlien was talking about a

that the Uknainians provided

L2

readout of the phone

13

a readout of the phone call between Pnesident Zelensky and Pnesident

t4

Trump

that

was

published? Did you get a copy of that?

AMBASSADOR

15

that I did.

16

on

t7

White House.

Ane you awane

REEKER:
What

I

am

I'm -- I'm not sune that I

was awane ofthat

familian with is what was neleased by the

2t

Right. But the Ukrainians, we'ne awane in
deposition from pnevious witnesses that it was actually -- I believe
it came fnom Mr. Vo1ken -- a neadout fnom Uknainians, because
Mn. Volken and Mn. Sondland both said that the Uknainians felt good

22

about the

18
19

20

23

24
25

MR. MEADOWS:

call. Did they convey that to you?
AMBASSADOR REEKER: WeI1, as I think I've testified, Kunt did
send me a WhatsApp message and saying, Gneat caII with POTUS.
MR. MEADOWS: So Mn. Vo1ken, did he talk about if he says,
UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS I

call,

do you believe

that that

2t8

FIED

to

be a gneat

call

L

gneat

2

Pnesident Tnump's standpoint, on fnom Pnesident Zelensky's standpoint,

3

on both?
AMBASSADOR

4
5

6

was meant

REEKER: You know,

I -- I couldn't say. I neally

. I just nememben being that - - saying something to the gnoup,
I said, 0h, I heand from Kunt, it was a gneat call
couLdn't

MR. MEADOWS: So Ambassadon

7

Volker, Special

Envoy

8

never said that he had any concenns about the phone

9

connect

to the Uknaine,

call. Is that

?

AMBASSADOR

10
LL

fnom

REEKER: To

me

concenns about moving fonward,

directly? No.

You know, he had bnoad

getting that White

L2

MR. MEADOWS: The meeting.

13

AMBASSADOR

REEKER: You know, moving

House meeting.

the pnocess forward,
that

L4

getting the Pnesident to undenstand.

15

bniefed the Pnesident aften the inaugunation on the 23nd

May,

he

16

said, I just kept going back to the positive, but Mn. President,

we

t7

have oppontunities

18

team.

L9

to wonk with this

He was

veny clean

new Pnesident

when they

of

of Ukraine

would you say that Ambassadon Volken, Ambassadon

MR. MEADOWS: So

all wene talking
in tenms of a new

20

Sond1and, Secretany Penny, and Senaton Ron lohnson

2t

this can be a new day for Uknaine
govennment, kind of a neset of the connupt pnactices of the

22

and his

about how that

REEKER: tnle11,

23

AMBASSADOR

24

from the meeting that

25

Ukrainian Govennment

I think that's a hope.

And

past?

the neadout

I got was that the delegation will wonk with
in context of push fon nefonm and to flag the
UNCLASS

I FIED

 219
UNCLASS I

FIED

1

Pnesident's concenns about connuption, poon investment climate,

2

oliganchic contnol of the economy. And ensune that Zelensky

3

pnepaned

4

U.S. -Uknaine

to

demonstnate

to

neform and impnoving

--

Yeah. So have you heand since the aid has been

have you heand about concerns

6

neleased, and

7

influence wlthln the

8

AMBASSADOR

9

commitment

of possible oliganch

new Zelensky administnation?

REEKER: Thene ane neponts

of those kinds of things

whene you would imagine questions
MR. MEADOWS:

10

Specifically, people that are closely aligned with

11

oligarch, they were closely aligned with ZeIensky,

t2

positions in the

13

have

t4
15

comes

bilatenal nelationship.

MR. MEADOWS:

5

his

and

new

testified to that.
AMBASSADOR

Mn.

government. I think

REEKER:

some

Have you heand any

Yeah.

it wasn't so late I

now

getting

of youn othen colleagues

of that?

Thene was always

the question about

would nememben, Kola

16

MR. CASTOR: Kolomoisky.

L7

AVIBASSADOR

REEKER: Kolomoisky, the

exiled oliganch,

-

who he was

is that

18

said to be close with, but thene is still

19

thene's still questions about what nole and what influence he
MR. MEADOWS: And so

20

let

me

close with

my undenstanding

this:

has.

Genenally speaking,

2t

you'ne -- the aid that was neleased on September the 11th and 12th of

22

20J9, actually had a highen pnopontion

23

defensive weapons and military options, vensus pnevious appnopniations

24

and

25

administnations. Is that
AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

f

of that

money going towands

connect?

I

know

UNCLASS

IF]ED

mean,

that the fiscal

2019 amount

 UNCLASS

220

I E]ED

7

fon Ukraine State USAID, and that includes of counse State stuff that's

2

been passed

3

That's a plus-up of oven $30 million fnom fiscaL 2@18. The Javelins,

4

of counse,

5

that had not been, if I'm necalling conrectly, but it is not something

6

that I

to

DOD

for

vanious militany prognams was $445.7 million.

was something

was

that

just

was new and

unden

this administnation

tracking at all.
That's connect, as a defensive

7

MR. MEADOWS:

8

AMBASSADOR

9

MR. MEAD0WS: And so

weapon?

REEKER: YCAh.

in that incnease,

to

10

U.S.-Uknaine policy would be

7L

weapons suppont going fonwand?

would you say

that pnopen

continue with additional defensive

13

I mean, I would leave that specific judgment
and recommendation to the experts in that. And my -- many of them,

t4

fonmen colleagues

15

at State,

15

an impontant component. But

77

on

18

component

19

Uknainians are also buying and paying fon weapon systems.

t2

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

at

whene most

DOD

I

of

what we'ne doing

I yield

2L

Mn. Chainman, fon

oun

political militany bureau

do believe

that that is

to help Uknaine.

And,

hearing me out you on some

23

THE CHAIRMAN: We11,

of course, the

back.

of

my concenns today.

I --

and

I

thank

you. I look fonwand

with you thnough the nest of the dunation

Ambassadon

an impontant

the necond, I just want to say thank you fon

22

wonking

in

would defer and get an expent position

that befone I would want -- but I

MR. MEADOWS:

25

at

of that -- I wouldn't want to -- I think that's

20

24

on

EUCOM,

to

hene.

-- no, feel fnee to consult with counsel at any time.
UNCLASS

I FIED

 22L

] F]ED

UNCLASS

7

2
3

to finish off hene. So you
may know nothing about the topics I'm going to ask you about, if you
don't, just say so and we can move on.

I

hope

this will

be

AMBASSADOR

5

THE CHAIRMAN:

it quicken.

7

Amigos

If

you do,

if

you can be succinct, we will get to

Duning the time when Secnetany Penny was one

of the

with this pontfolio, did you have any intenaction with

AMBASSADOR

8

nound

REEKER: Okay.

4

6

the lightning

REEKER:

Yes. I

Thnee
him?

met Secnetary Penny when we tnaveled

11

-- Iet me get this in the night onden. We attended the Thnee Seas
Initiative Summit. This is an initiative of central Eunopean
countnies that ties in Baltics, BIack Sea, and Adniatic countries

L2

focused langely on energy divensification, and so, the --

9
10

fnom

16

that have been?
AMBASSADOR REEKER: That's what I will find fon you. I'm sonny.
lust -- thene it is. I tnaveled with the Secnetany to Berlin to make
up fon the tnip, he'd have to cancel. We went on to The Hague fon Global

t7

Entnepreneunship Summit; and

18

on June the 4th.

13

t4
15

19

20

THE CHAIRMAN: When would

then,

THE CHAIRMAN: Ambassadon,

I

was

in Bnussels fon the dinnen

you'ne undencutting the lightning

nound hene.
REEKER:

2L

AMBASSADOR

22

Secnetany Penny was at

23

we then

flew the next

Sonry. But this gets night to it.

So

that dinnen, and he was also at the dinnen.
monning fnom Bnussels

24

THE CHAIRMAN: So when would

25

AMBASSADOR

that be?

REEKER: ]UNC thC 5th.
UNCLASSIFIED

to

Ljubljana

And

 UNCLASS

2

tnaveling on meeting with

THE CHAIRMAN: And duning youn

1

Secnetany Perny duning
AIvIBASSADOR

3

222

I FIED

this time, did you discuss Uknaine?

REEKER: You know, Gondon Sondland was along

with us,

8

I think thene was some genenal discussion, because we definitely,
I necaIl, this is whene I nememben the discussion about the need to
stockpile and to get the Uknainian -- this is summen, and they ane
atready thinking ahead to winten. If the Russians turn off the tap
at the end of thein contnacts, will the Uknainians have stockpiled?

9

And

4
5

6
7

and

that

was an assignment

THE CHAIRMAN:

10

that

During

Secnetany Penny was sont

of undentaking.

that peniod when you wene traveling with
fon any convensation,

11

Sondland and Perny, wene you present

t2

participate in any convensation with eithen Sondland or

73

Bunisma, the Bidens, the 2OL6 -- desine

74

topics

come up

16

It

neally focused on this

L7

Zelensky. Gee, didn't he seem like a good guy?

18

night tnack from the dinnen.

20

2t
22
23

24
25

Penny about

to investigate 20!6, did those

in any of those discussions?
AMBASSADOR REEKER: I do not necall anything specific to that.

15

19

on

was

THE

Thnee Seas and then moving fonwand with

I think he's on the

CHAIRMAN: So you weren't present fon any convensations about

those othen investigative intenests
AMBASSADOR

REEKER: No,

of

Mn. Giuliani and others?

I don't recall any thene.

And thene was

anothen time
THE CHAIRMAN:

peniod

Did Giuliani's name come up

at

any duning that

?

AMBASSADOR

REEKER: Not

--

not that

UNCLASS

I FIED

I necaII. I can't

swean

it

 223
UNCLASS I EIED

t

didn't in passing, but I don't necall.
THE CHAIRMAN: And

2
3

with Secnetany

4

Penry.

AIvIBASSADOR

REEKER: Yes,

of following

5

on June 18th, kind

6

was back

7

Bnechbuhl joined us, and

8
9
10
11
72
13

you mentioned you had one othen intenactlon

in town, so it

it

was

up

all of that,

laten after

we wene

we went

back.

oven

--

And

Gondon

was Secnetany Sondland, Volken, and Ulnich

I

went, which was probably not usual, because

I wasn't doing that much on this with them, but they invited me along,
and I was in town, I had an oppontunity. So we went oven to DOE to
Secnetany Penny's office to kind of follow up.
THE CHAIRMAN: The date of that, again?
AMBASSADOR REEKER: That was June the 18th, acconding to my
calendan. And I just want to -THE CHAIRMAN: And

t4

then in that convensation, did the Bidens,

15

Burisma, 2OL6, the black ledgen,

15

up?

DNC

senven, any

of those issues

come

19

No. It was a meeting and a numben of other
people thene. And by that time, Bill Taylon was on the gnound in Kyiv,
and he came in by conference call. I think he nefenences that in

20

his -- in his pnepaned statement that was officially

2t

neleased.

L7
18

22

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

THE CHAIRMAN: And

on not

apant fnom what you've alneady

officially

testified to,

23

did you have any othen convensations, on come acnoss any othen documents

24

pentaining to an investigation of the Bidens or Bunisma on the

25

election

?

UNCLASS

I FIED

2016

 UNCLASS

AMBASSADOR

1

224

] FIED

REEKER: To the best of

my

knowledge and

necollection,

2

only the references in the various pness things on nefenences to those

3

discussions, but

4

documents about those

I'd

neven seen,

subjects,

THE CHAIRMAN: And

5

that I can necaIl, any panticulan

no.

you neven discussed specific

--

you neven

6

discussed with eithen Kent, on Volken, or Sondland, on Penny, on anyone

7

else the desire by Giuliani to investigate the
AMBASSADO.R

8
9

not the night wond,

it

was

it

was

in that oblique -- that's

in the, 1ike, the discussion with

tnying, as he said, I'm going to try to talk to

10

was

7L

nefocused on

72

REEKER: You know,

Bidens?

the now, and

THE CHAIRMAN: And

Rudy

Kunt

who

to get him

how we move forwand.

did the Bidens

come up

in that convensation?

L7

I don't necaLl anybody mentioning the
Bidens, per se. You know, it was just one of those things it was always
out thene, because, of counse, Giuliani was talking about it and the
pness was wniting about it all the time. And George too, you know,
w€, in oun genenal discussions, as I have alluded to now many times,

18

he had these foun stnands

19

these sort

13

14
15
16

20

AMBASSADOR

of

REEKER: But

And so, you know, we would

anothen pness stony

22

talking about that?

24
25

nannative that wene coming

conspinacy theonies, and one

27

23

of

THE CHAIRMAN:

Depantment

of

them was

out, some of
that.

attnibute certain things,

is

hene comes

that's stil1 feeding

on

that,

Did you panticipate

in

a May 16 meeting

on

Rudy himself

at State

with David HaIe and Fiona Hill?

AMBASSAD0R

REEKER:

Yes.

That sounds

UNCLASS

I FIED

familian. I think Fiona

 225
UNCLASS

1

came oven

yeah, 3:45 to 4:L5 p.m,, acconding to my calendan.

THE CHAIRMAN: And who

2

3

--

punpose

set up that meeting and what was its

?

REEKER:

AvIBASSADOR

4

I FIED

I'm not sune I can nememben.

I

know

I

had

7

-- whene David said, I found that useful,
it's good to do just to kind of -- I think we call it a signals check
on something. I know she -- I do nememben one of the topics was the

8

issue of Gondon, she had had, I think

9

nole again,

5

6

an email aftenwands saying

this

innegulan

nole.

a - - she was fnustnated
And

that centainly

by Gordon's

came up thene.

L4

I know at some point. I don't know if it was that eanly she -- but
it may have been them talking about having had a real sort of clash
with Gordon, wonds -- wonds wene exchanged, I think. And I just don't
nemember the details of that, but it fell into the same categony of
what I'd naised with Hale oven the -- I mean, I guess I had been around

15

about almost 3 months

10
11
L2
13

THE CHAIRMAN: And

16
L7

at that point, innegulan
did Fiona

ask whethen Sondland had been

given a chanten to be one of the leads on Ukraine?
REEKER:

AMBASSADOR

18

" on, as I

I think that was pant of the question.

"Pr

20

oh, he seems to have that nole.

know

And

him, David HaIe, the Unden Secretany, focused that,

19

27

Hill

nole.

THE CHAIRMAN: So

And

duning the meeting, Hale affinmed

that at the

22

Pnesident's dinection, Sondland was, in fact, at least one of the thnee

23

people

24
25

in

change

AMBASSADOR

of the Uknaine?

I seem to necalI, I mean, it would be David's
like, you know, it appeans that way, on just

REEKER:

style to say something

UNCLASS I

FIED

 226

IFIED

UNCLASS

2

in nesponse to my question, sort of, can you explain to
me this noIe, and he just said, irnegulan, isn't it? I don't nememben

3

the specifics of the convensation,

7

like

THE CHAIRMAN:

4
5

saying

convensation

REEKER: No, not

BY MR. GOLDMAN:

7

a

8
9

thene anything else you do necall about the

?

AMBASSADOR

6

Is

but

Did you discuss the inaugunal delegation

going on May 2?th, since

A

10

We

veny

this

4

was

to

Uknaine

that

was

days befone?

well could have, because

I do rememben David asking,

7T

We1l, who's going? Because there was a time we thought the Vice

L2

Pnesident would

13

high-leve1 panticipation, that

74

engagement

15

too.

16

certain time that possibly the Vice Pnesident would go.

L7

18
19

20
21
22
23

24
25

And

I

go. I

knew

the Secnetany couldn't
was

getting off to a good
knew

go.

We wanted

he, again, showing suppont, showing

stant.

the Secnetany couldn't

Gondon was pushing

go.

And thene was

a Do you know why he ultimately didn't go?
A I don't.
a Did Dn. Hill express concern about Ambassadon

fon that

talk at

a

Sondland

going?

A I don't nememben that specifically, but I -- to me it
we1l, of counse Gordon's going to go, that was

a
A

--

and then

I

was,

nememben

--

So you

asking who is going now? And

I think I -- I

had heand

from the team that they wene looking now at Secretany Penny, and that
UNCLASS

I EIED

 227

UNCLASS]FIED

1

Kunt would go, and Gondon.

2

a

3

23nd meeting?

4

A

it, of counse, that Sondland would go before the May

Why was

Because Sondland was, you know, he was

to

be

--

he was,

I

going

the Zelensky

to lead on this,

5

was detenmined

6

undenscone

7

along, being thene with othens.

He was always eagen and neady

8

to just

in the continent.

9

a

10
11

t2
13

t4
15

his nole in working on Uknaine and bninging the

about anything anywhene
And

this

much-publicized

was

trip

just

oven

a few days aften Mr.

A I don't necaLl when that was. I

THE CHAIRMAN:

2L
22

Eunopeans

to

go

Giuliani canceled his

nememben

the talk about him

I don't necall the dates.
a WeIl, if we look at exhibit 1, it's the New Yonk Times
article, it is dated May 9th, but we can just flag that fon the recond.
A Thene you go.

t7

20

and

going and then that he decided not to go, but

MR. GOLDMAN: MN. ChAirMAN.

19

he

there, right?

15

18

am

--

advance

Ambassador,

of thein meeting with

did you speak with Volken on Kent in

Zelensky

in

Tononto?

in the sense it depends how you
mean. Specifically -- I mean, in advance, I mean, I spoke to them on
and off, I saw Geonge Kent almost eveny day when I was in the office.
AMBASSADOR

REEKER: We1I,

THE CHAIRMAN:

23

in Tononto?

24

to speak -- that

25

he was going

What

to

Did you speak about what was going to take place

thein

message was going

Ambassadon Vo1ken was

communicate

going to speak to Zelensky, what

to in that

UNCLASS

to be, that they wene going

meeting?

I FIED

 UNCLASS

L

REEKER:

AIvIBASSAD0R

228

I FIED

I don't necaLl -- specifically, I

2

Geonge was

going.

3

At a time,

I thought I

might go,

it

4

mone on

Uknaine, but

it didn't

work

5

guys wene handling

6

Kunt and Geonge wene the night combo fon that.

7

8
9
10

Again, thene had been questions about who might go.

it

so we came

THE CHAIRIvIAN: And

did

was an oppontunity

Ambassadon Volken

of that, I

know

AMBASSADOR

13

THE CHAIRMAN:

t7
18

tell

you what he planned

was,

I think,

was JuLy 2nd, 3nd.

REEKER: That sounds night.

Did he discuss with you aften the confenence what

he communicated to Pnesident Zelensky?

I will take anothen quick look at oun
WhatsApp, but I don't think there wene any othen emails that I don't
nememben specifically. No, thene was nothing in that peniod.
AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

THE CHAIRMAN:

Did you even discuss with Ambassadon Volker

19

Secnetany Kent what took pIace, what was communicated

20

Zelensky?

in

AI4BASSADOR

22

THE CHAIRMAN:

Tononto to

I don't necalI specifically doing that.
You may have been asked this eanlien, if you have,
familiar with the July 10 meeting at the White

23

I apologize.

24

House between Yenmak, Danylyuk and vanious U.S. Govennment

Ane you

AMBASSADOR

on

REEKER:

2L

25

The date

--

72

16

and these

Zelensky before he

THE CHAIRMAN: The confenence

15

in the tnavel schedule,

to the detenmination that pnobably

11

L4

to focus a little

left fon the tnip?
AIVIBASSADoR REEKER: I don't neca1l that specifically.

to discuss with

knew

REEKER:

I've

seen nefenence

UNCLASS] FIED

to it.

officials?

I couldn't tell

 UNCLASS

at this

if it's

229

] FIED

mone contemponary nefenence

necounting

it,

1

you

2

in tenms of all of the news covenage on some of these tnanscnipts on

3

testimony fnom this pnocess.

moment

Did you get a neadout about what happened at the

THE CHAIRMAN:

4

7

it took place?
AMBASSADOR REEKER: I don't neca1l that I did. And I don't know
that I would have. I don't recall if any of oun guys wene there, on

8

Kunt was there, on Gondon was thene

5

6

meeting aften

THE CHAIRMAN:

9
10

AMBASSADOR

Again,

I --

REEKER:

no

Sin,

I don't neca1l any panticulan

readout.

you know, I get L.?OO emails a day.

THE CHAIRMAN:

13

t4

believe they both were thene. But you got

readout fnom anybody who was present?

11

t2

I

or not.

f

know

this

was

a pnetty significant meeting,

though, and it's obviously an impontant pant of youn pontfolio.
Thene ane

15

text

messages, Ambassadon Volken

to Mn.

Yenmak, befone

16

the Tnump-Zelensky call, in which Volken communicates to Yenmak,

t7

fnom White House as soon as Pnesident Z convinces Tnump, he

Heand

19

will
investigate/get to the bottom of what happened in 2@1-6. We will nail
down date fon visit to Washington. Good luck. Do you know what that

20

was nefenning to?

18

21

AMBASSADOR

22

THE

REEKER:

I'm not familian with the text

CHAIRMAN: No, I'm not asking

if

message.

you'ne familian with the

text

23

message. But do you undenstand what Ambassadon Volken was nefenning

24

to

25

will investigate/get to the bottom of what happened in 2Ot6.

when he

said to Yenmak, assuming Pnesident Z convinces Tnump, he

UNCLASS

I FIED

We

will

 visit,

date fon a visit to Washington. Do you know what

7

nail

2

he's talking about thene?

down

the

AMBASSADOR

3

230

FIED

UNCLASS ]

REEKER:

I don't know specifically. I

4

all of news neporting now, one can assume, but I

5

email or the
THE

6

CHAIRMAN: So thnoughout

which was the date

8

Volken neven

9

commit

of the cal1,

told you that

this

and

he was tnying

REEKER:

THE CHAIRMAN: He neven bnought

13

AMBASSADOR

15

you know

16

which

19

20
2L

as you see fnom the

-- his focus

was on

THE CHAIRMAN: The

with the stnategy,
AMBASSADOR

and get

tnying to

question

is

-- f

mean,

I

did not talk

texts. I don't recaII anything,

move fonwand on

how he was

the bnoad stnategy

trying to move fonwand

and

REEKER: He

did not consult with

me

on his pnocess on

his steps in the pnocess.
THE CHAIRIvIAN: And wene

you aware

of effonts by eithen

22

Volken on Ambassadon Sondland to get Pnesident Zelensky

23

these two investigations, eithen

24

Pnesident wanted,

25

to the

that to youn attention?

REEKER: They wene focusing

to Kunt that often,

Ambassadon

NO.

L2

74

until July 25th,

to get Pnesident Zelensky to

to President Tnump that he would investigate
bottom of what happened in 2Ot6?
AMBASSADOR

18

pnocess and up

the date of his text,

11

L7

wasn't awane of the

message.

7

10

mean, based on

AvIBASSADOR

Ambassadon

to

commit

of these two investigations
that of the Bidens, or that of 2@16?

REEKER: What

I was awane was the neference I

UNCLASS I

FIED

to

the

made

that

 23t
UNCLASS

L

Gondon had

a scnipt to

2

of that, I

was

with Zelensky, but the specifics

move fonwand

not pant

of,

no.

THE CHAIRMAN: So thnoughout

3

I EIED

all the months that Ambassador

4

Sondland was wonking on this and Ambassadon Volken was working on this,

5

neithen one even bnought to youn attention that they wene trying to

6

get President Zelensky to

7

Pnesident wanted eithen befone he would get a meeting, on duning that

8

call

commit

to these two investigations

the

?

11

of -- you know, it was
convincing, you know, as I nead to you the idea was to convince the
Pnesident as I put if, flag POTUS's concenn, yeah, to push fon nefonms,

L2

flag

13

ensune

L4

nefonm and impnoving U.S.-Ukraine

9
10

AMBASSADOR

REEKER: No, not the

POTUS's concenn about connuption and poon

that Zelensky comes pnepaned to

15

THE CHAIRMAN: And

16

AMBASSADoR

L7

specifics

you'ne neading from what

Volker sent specifically to
THE CHAIRMAN:

19

AMBASSADOR

20

THE CHAIRIvIAN:

demonstnate

Okay.

his

commitment

to

bilatenal nelationship.

REEKER: This again

18

investment climate, and

now?

is the t4ay 23rd neadout that

Kunt

me.

So you've

got this

official

readout?

REEKER: Uh-huh.
But then you've got

this othen channel that you're

2t

not awane of, in which they ane seeking to get a commitment fnom Zelensky

22

to

23

24
25

do these

investigations. Is that

youn testimony

that you'ne

awane

of the official ask, which you've.nefenenced the memo, but in tenms
of what Ambassadon Volken is talking about in this text message you
had no knowledge of that going on?
UNCLASS

I EIED

 232

UNCLASSTFIED

REEKER:

7

AMBASSADOR

2

THE CHAIRMAN: And

I did not,

no.

did you have any knowledge of

3

by Ambassadon Sondland, Ambassadon Volken, on others

4

the militany aid

5

to

6

itself

was being

comments made

indicating that

withheld, as a way of getting Uknaine

to these investigations? Did that come to youn attention?
AMBASSADOR REEKER: No, I mean -- again, in the convensations

commit

7

within the office of

8

Mulvaney

Geonge and

othens, what is holding this up,

10

this, is that night? How do we push this
THE CHAIRMAN: In those convensations did someone naise
concern, Hey, is this being done to get Zelensky to do these

11

investigations

9

t2

is

behind

the

?

AMBASSADOR

REEKER: That supposition,

that idea is that is that

13

possible I think was potentially one of things out thene. But I

L4

no

15

on punsuing

16

decision.

77
18

19

indication that that

this

PCC

THE CHAIRMAN:

was

AMBASSADOR

REEKER:

I couldn't

nememben

talking about. Subsequently, I've

Bill Taylon made to that.

25

I -- we kept focusing
because that's the way to get to a neal
Nobody knew, and

be

withheld fon the neason of pnessuning Uknaine to do the investigations.

21.

24

had

WeII, who naised that concenn that aid might

Geonge was

23

it.

pnocess

20

22

why

THE CHAIRMAN: You

this concenn.

Who was

AIvIBASSADOR

said

seen

something

the nefenences that

somebody contemponaneously had naised

that?

REEKER:

would be the most

if that's

likely

I just couldn't tel1 you.

penson, as we looked
UNCLASS

I E]ED

Pnobably George

at the, you know,

whene

 233
UNCLASS I E]ED

L

do things stand on a peniodic check-in on

2

What's happening

there?

3

fonwand thnough

this

PCC

THE CHAIRMAN: And

4
5

you awane

6

commit

7

House

And

process

assistance.

meeting? Were you aware of that effort?
REEKER:

I

do not necall

or

10

Ambassadon SondIand,

11

necall something like that?
AMBASSADOR

you

recal1

someone had

REEKER:

it if

told

Pnobably.

that specifically,
Ambassadon

you about

no.

Volken, on

it. I assume you'd
I can't

I don't, so I can't

if it did in the counse of evenything else.
that Ambassadon Volken was --

THE CHAIRMAN: Wene you awane

15

different pant of chnonology, but ane you awane that Ambassadon

16

was

77

Madnid

18

wene

to doing these two investigations befone he could get a White

THE CHAIRMAN: You would

t4

up?

that thene was an effort to get Pnesident Zelensky to publicly

9

tell

to tny to get this

aften the caI1, aften the JuIy 25th call,

AMBASSADOR

13

holding

the focus continued to be we keep pnessing

8

72

this, what's

tnying to help arrange a meeting between Giuliani and

a

Volken

Yenmak

in

that since and f --

so

?

AMBASSADOR

REEKER: You know,

I've

nead

20

I don't -- I do not believe that was the specific -- I think as fan
as Kunt and I got was that he was tnying to, you know -- he was going

2t

to talk to

22

penhaps help

23

make Rudy undenstand.

19

24
25

Rudy and

tny to deal with that impediment, that that

with the President's attitude towands Uknaine

THE CHAIRMAN:

if

would

he could

But he neven told you he was tnying to annange

meeting between Giuliani and Yenmak
UNCLASS I

in

Madnid?

FIED

a

 REEKER:

L

AMBASSADOR

2

THE CHAIRMAN:

3

that Ambassadon

4

vis-i-vis

Rudy

I don't nememben that specifically,

Giuliani?
REEKER: Yeah, we didn't

6

I said, he mentioned it. It

7

negulanly.

8

And as

9
10

this

THE

went on,

-- as

that

he was going

to try to

do

that.

he said something

74

a quid pno quo

15

nelated to

16

that anticle

Senaton Ron lohnson gave an intenview

to the effect that Sondland

2@L6

and the fnozen

came

REEKER:

I

exactly the date that

I

aid.

2L

anticle to youn attention?

of that at the time

neading

that. I don't know if

you

was.

I
THE CHAIRMAN: Would it

AMBASSADOR

Were you awane

nememben

lohnson. August 30th,

Senaton

23

had indicated thene was

believe that was August intenview with

20

22

in which

out about that convensation?

THE CHAIRMAN:

t9

things could be.

involving a commitment by Uknaine to investigate mattens

AMBASSADOR

know

had my own, wondening what

I think

13

t7

I

CHAIRMAN: Let me ask you, at the end of August, end of August,

eanly Septemben,

25

He

wasn't a secnet, but we wenen't in touch

You know, he mentioned

L2

24

talk about it much.

It
was all a little stnange. We stiI1 didn't have a meeting. We still
didn't have the assistance, until we did.

LL

18

no.

Is it fain to say thene were a gneat many things
Vo1ken didn't share with you about his effonts,

AMBASSADOR

5

234

FIED

UNCLASS I

REEKER:

I believe. Did someone bning that
I just

I don't necall.
have concenned you if Ambassador

Sondland

told a U.S. Senaton that the aid was being withheld in onden to
get Uknaine to commit to investigating matters nelating to 20L6?
had

UNCLASS I

ElED

 235
UNCLASSIFIED

AMBASSADOR REEKER: Would it have concerned me? Yes.

UNCLASSIFIED

 

UNCLASS

L

17:O3 p.m.l

2

THE CHAIRMAN: MN. GOIdMAN.

3

BY MR. GOLDMAN:

4
5

6
7
8
9

10

t\
L2
13

14
L5

16

t7
18
19

20
21
22
23

24
25

1

a I just have one mone topic.
Taylon sent

A
a

236

FIED

The NODIS cable

that

Ambassadon

to Secnetary Pompeo on August 29th --

Uh-huh.

that -- finst-penson NODIS cables like that
ane pnetty unusual within the Depantment. Is that night?
NODIS

cables of

A I mean, they ane not the most common, but they'ne
not -- they'ne not totally unique. I mean, You know.
a Okay. We}I, how many times a yean do you think that one of
youn 50 --

A
a

Ambassadons?

ambassadons,

right

sent notice cables, finst-penson

like that to the Secnetany?

A It would be nane. So, I mean, I'm not tnying to be g1ib.
a Right.
A I'm just sort of saying it's not unpnecedented, but it's
centainly unique, by definition.

a Do you know what the Secnetany did with the cable at the time?
A No, I don't.
a And
A I, you know, his -- his staff give him stuff to nead, so I
assumed, as I mentioned, f saw it laten.
a

So

just to

be c1ear, something

that's

UNCLASSI FIED

rane

like this within

 UNCLASS

dinectly to the Secnetany,

1

youn pontfolio

2

to youn attention at the time?

that

goes

237

I F]ED

was

not

bnought

5

A I -- August 29th was pnion to the laJansaw -- anticipating
Wansaw visit. It was kind of a scene setten for that, and laid out,
as I think I mentioned, the significance of Uknaine as a secunity

6

pantnen.

7

a

3

4

8

wene

No, I'm

just

asking whethen you think

it's

unusual

if

you

not notified of a cable like that within one of youn 50 countries?

15

it came down and was shared, I'm not sune
if Geonge saw it on nead it.
a I'm just asking about you.
A Yeah, I would have -- I would have liked to see it. I would
have thought that, I mean, Bill might have, sont of, flagged, I'm
sending this. But I - - I did not have a communication from BiII at
that point. And he was dealing pnimanily with -- with George inside

16

the

9
10
11
L2
13

L4

L7

A

You know, whethen

Buneau.

But now,

I think f'm pnobably equating what -- what I

18

of Bill's testimony that

19

to Kyiv on that subject.

20

2t
22
23

24
25

a

have read

he had met during Ambassadon Bolton's

But you affirmatively did not know about

this

visit

cable when it

came in?

A Not not that I necall.
a Okay. You just testified that you tnavel a fair bit

with

to Eunope. Is that night?
A When he does Eunopean tnips, I usually accompany him.

Secnetany Pompeo when he goes

UNCLASS] F]ED

Not

 UNCLASS

7

always

2
3

4
5

238

I FIED

a
A
a

Right.

A

Not

but

I usually

accomPanY him.

that's a fain bit of time that
him oven the past 6, 8 months, right?

6
7

at it.

8

And

9

So

that much, I

you end up spending with

mean, we can go back thnough

There have been sevenal

-- Sevenal tnips,

it if

you look

but they ane shont.

I don't have that much actual time with him, but, you know -a Did you discuss the Uknaine-nelated issues with him on any

12

of those tnips?
A No. The only time, in Rome, aften all of this happened, we
discussed -- at one juncture, I was included in a pne-brief, I think,

13

befone an

10
11

15

-- eithen nemarks on an intenview or something, which I'm
not always, and I -- because I mentioned that thene was a pness repont
out that said that -- I said to the spokespeople and the Secretany:

16

You may be

t7

to

1.4

asked. There's a press repont that says you asked Volken

submit his nesignation.
And he

18

said: I didn't ask Vo1ken.

Volken called

me and

told me

79

he had to submit his nesignation. And he was veny distunbed

20

disappointed about that because, as he said, and

27

a, you know,

22

on

23

he was

this path,

a

the

guy.

He was

I

and

agneed, Kunt

was

rea1ly cnucial to oun moving fonward

and now we will have

to

neadjust

that.

So --

Did you get the sense that Secnetany Pompeo knew about this

24

innegulan channel with Rudy Giuliani, Ambassador Sondland,

25

Ambassadon

Volken, and pushing these investigations?
UNCLASS

IFIED

and

 UNCLASS

A

L

2

4
5

6
7

knew about Sondland and Volken

a
A

And what about

a
A
a

He neven

the investigations that Giuliani

--

said

No,

sir.

Was

this tnip to

spoke

to you about it at all?

Rome when

the call recond

came

out and the

I believe, the week befone while we wene in

That occunned,

New Yonk

for the UNGA --

a Right.
A -- and the President

also.

And

that is, of

the Pnesident had the Zelensky meeting in

New

Yonk, and Kurt

t2

was thene

13

when

74

emailed

15

help get him manifested fon that meeting.

--

And

16

a

not emailed, but

I just said:

secnetany

18
19

wanted?

no indication.

A

11

L7

leading the

whistleblowen complaint came out, on shontly theneaften?

9
10

centainly

engagement, but

3

8

He

239

I FIED

We1I,

I think
I

passed

WhatsApp'd me, asking

counse,

if I

had

could

that to the Secnetany's executive

to -And when you wene on

Ukraine matter

that Rome tnip, did you discuss this

at all?

22

didn't. The mention I just gave about the -- the
question that he might get. 0f counse, thene was a lot of press
questions at each of his availabilities. And, you know, to be c1ean,

23

when we ane on these

24

means.

20
2L

25

A

a

We

neally

tnips, I'm not hanging with the Secnetany by any

Ane you aware

of

whethen on

not the Attonney Genenal

UNCLASS I FTED

was

 UNCLASS I

1

eithen in

2

befone

Italy

anound the time

that

240

FIED

you were thene, on had been shontly

?

5

A That I leanned fnom pness, and I was being asked that by
Italians. I know a lot of Italians -- by Italian jounnalists, and I
neally don't know anything about that. But I have read about that

6

since, you know.

3

4

8
9
10
11

13

that question came up at the Secnetary's

a But you have no pensonal knowledge of -A No.
a -- the Attonney Genenal's tnips to Italy at all?
A No.
a Do you know -- have you come acnoss, since you took over this

7

t2

And

no1e,

that the two individuals, Lev Parnas and Igor

A I

neven came acnoss them

pensonally.

I

know

Fnuman?

their

names and

t4

thein connections to Giuliani, and, of counse, thein recent annests,

15

but that's been in the

16
77
18
19

20

a

news.

Did you, pnior to thein annests, had you

-- wene you familiar

with thein association with Giuliani?

A

Yeah, thene wene pness reponts, some

cinculated in the vast

a

How

numbens

of those

ones that

of --

about othen than pness

neports?

Did you come acnoss them

23

in any of youn wonk?
A I don't believe so, no. I've neven met them, no.
a And then finalIy, eanlien today when you wene discussing the

24

sont of innegulan natune of the arnangement with Ambassador Sondland

25

and Ambassador Volken

2L
22

in

nesponse

to

some

UNCLASSlF]ED

questioning fnom the

 UNCLASS

24r

I FIED

1

minority, you said at one point, you said: I've often

2

then you kind of tnailed
And

3

4
5

5
7

8
9

I'm just

off

wondening

and then went

if

wondened

to a diffenent

--

and

question.

you nememben what you often wondered

this innegulan annangement?
A It was it was innegulan and you stanted neading all of
these supposed things, and I've -- I've wondered what was neally going
on. How does this all connect?
You know, f've seen the outrageous smeans and attacks against
Ambassadon Yovanovitch, in panticulan, Geonge, oun embassy, the
about

in general.

called

holdovens and

10

Foneign Senvice,

1.L

deep State whateven, which,

t2

done

13

negandless

L4

the foreign policy of the United States, and tnying to engage, and

this for

We

have been

Obama

of counse, is pensonally offensive having

27 years thnough one administnation

of party,

and being

nonpolitical

to

anothen,

and focused on, you know,

18

of who the President is.
So that is centainly a pensonal fnustnation. Talking to -- you
know, I feel nesponsibility fon this Iange numben of people,
panticulanly now that I'm o1d, long in the tooth, and the youngen

19

genenations

20

investigation, I think ane neally

15

16
L7

suppont oun intenests, negardless

of

Foneign Senvice officens who, with

The numben

2L

of

people

that

22

but in othen places, and in

23

to

24
25

ane

this

pnocess and

this

concenned.

at

oun embassy

my Buneau who want

to

centainly in Kyiv,
know

if they need

go hine lawyens.

difficult, and tnying to know, you know, what is aIl going
on, what might be. You know, you nead a lot of different things in
That's

UNCLASS I EIED

 UNCLASS

242

FIED

1

2

I inherited what I got. I agneed to do this. This
was not something I asked fon. I left a job I liked veny much, I found

3

wonthwhile and interesting

7

the press. Look,

I

4

was

at the

within a 3-houn

away.

Eunopean command.

commute

of

my

wife,

and now

I'm six time

I tnavel 50 pencent of the time tnying to maintain a

5

zones

6

nelationship between the United States and oun Eunopean pantnens

and

9

aIlies, which is stnained, and help them to look at things in a mone
holistic long-tenm way.
I tny to bning in histonical context. lnle ane at the 75th

10

annivensary of the end of the Second World Wan, and what we have done

11

togethen in the thnee-quantens of a centuny to bning the tnansatlantic

12

space

13

of pnospenity, despite challenges

t4

gnandfathen, who fought in Wonld War II, would have imagined possible.

7
8

that is, you know, stable, peaceful,

So, you know,

15

that's

what

I

and has given us a Ievel

oven the yeans

do eveny

that

day. I

go

no one,

like

my

in thene and I

L7

atI of these things. I get on the United plane in seat 42-G,
pray that I can get an upgnade with my points so that I can, you know,

18

fly to Geongia

t9

establish a nelationship.

L6

deal with

You know,

20

and engage

I

have

to

with a bnand-new pnime ministen thene

manage and

and

tny to do this to the best of

my

22

ability. That's what I do every day. Uknaine is one piece of that.
I just remind you all that in the counse of this peniod, you know,

23

we have

also got Russia, and what they are

24

pnoblem

set.

25

you

21

Do you have any

doing. I've got the Tunkey

ideas how much time we spend on Tunkey,

know?

UNCLASS]TIED

 243
UNCLASS

I F]ED

Acting Assistant Secnetany fon Eunope,

1

I

know mone about Syria

5

if I was in the Nean East Buneau. You know,
tnying to follow that, not micnomanage. I cannot to take on
evenything. So I pass on these things.
I have seven gneat deputies. I inhenited a gneat team and
continuity, and I tny to provide leadenship and engagement to the 50

7

ambassadons

8

ambassadons and

9

think tanks, confenences, where these things

2
3

4
5

than

I

would have imagined

of those countnies here in
thein team anound the

Washington,

AOR;

to oun 50

to go to the appnopniate
ane discussed

to tny to

13

tell the stony of the United States.
And that's -- I'm sonry to go on, but that's just kind of what
I do.
a Last question. I just want to be sune that we didn't miss

t4

any documents

15

investigations.

10

t1
L2

16
L7
18

that might be panticulanly nelevant to

The Biden-Bunisma,

I don't know whethen you on youn counsel had

a chance to neview.

A

Did we

find the one email? Yes, this

this.

L9

think -- I think I

20

to put out a statement Manch 25th,

2L

whene we

22

"P says no statement."

23
24
25

these

got the

covened

wond from

was

the one that I

This is going back to the Masha, tnying
so exactly a week aften

P, the Unden Secnetany's

I

started

office. At t2:@4

a Right.
A That was just somebody that asked fon that and we couldn't
find it. I didn't know where it was.
UNCLASS

I EIED

 UNCLASS I

L

2

And, once again, you never detenmined whether

a
dinective

came fnom, on who

that decision

4

to you by P, but you neven -A It was nelayed. It was P staff.

5

that was him, himself,

6

to me.

7

cleanance pnocess.

3

8

9
10
11

244

FIED

He was sending

because

came

--

who

that

fnom? It was relayed

"P saysr" so

I

was assuming

his staffen was, again, not sending it

it to the press folks who wene punsuing this

a Undenstood. AIt night.
A And I said at the top of this

I think

we

talked

about

it -- to Michae}, my then acting deputy: Did you neach Masha to let
hen know that thene will not be a statement, essentially?

1.4

a Okay. I have nothing else.
A And in tenms of documents, I just, I'm not -- you know,
documents have not been pnovided. I have no authonity to do that. So

15

I've --

L2
13

16

t7
18

THE

CHAIRMAN: Ambassadon,

I

want to thank you fon youn testimony

today, and we ane adjounned.
[Wheneupon,

at 7:13 p.m., the deposition

UNCLASS

I FIED

was concluded.]