L UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 6 PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE, 7 joint with 8 COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM 9 and the the 10 COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS, 11 U.S. 12 WASHTNGTON, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, D.C. 13 L4 15 DEPOSITION OF: MARK SANDY 16 77 18 19 Satunday, November 16, 2@19 Washington, D.C. 20 2t 22 23 24 25 The deposition in the Capitol Visiton Centen, above matten was held commencing in Room HVC-304, at 10:08 a.m. Pnesent: Representatives Swalwe1l, Heck, and Wenstnup. UNCLASSIFIED 2 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 Also Pnesent: Repnesentatives Costa, DeSaulnien, Maloney, Nonton, Raskin, Jondan, Meadows, and Zeldin. UNCLASSIFIED 3 UNCLASSIFIED 1 ADpeanances: 2 3 4 Fon the PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE: Fon the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM: 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 UNCI,ASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED I Fon the COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS: 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Fon MARK SANDY: 11 L2 BARBARA VAN GELDER 13 ALLEGRA KAUFFMAN 14 KAREN 15 cozEN 0'CoNNoR 16 1200 Nineteenth t7 Washington, D.C. 20036 D. l,\JILLIAMS Street NW UNCLASSIFIED 4 5 UNCLASSIFIED MR. SWALWELL: Good monning, 1 Mn. Sandy, counsel, and colleagues, 3 to the House Penmanent Select Committee on Intelligence, which, along with the Foneign Affains and Oversight Committees, is 4 conducting 2 5 and welcome this investigation as a pant of the official inquiny of the House of Repnesentatives. Today's deposition 6 is being conducted as a pant impeachment of the impeachment 7 inquiny. In light of attempts by the Office of Management and Budget 8 and 9 the committee had no choice but to compel youn appeanance. the administnation to dinect you to not coopenate with the inquiny, We thank 10 you fon complying with the duly authonized congnessional subpoena, as 11 othen cunnent and fonmen 72 have done. Mr. Sandy 13 officials fnom acnoss the Fedenal is cunrently the Deputy Associate Govennment Dinecton fon National L4 Secunity Pnognams at the Office of Management and Budget, a position 15 that he has held since 2Ot3. 16 in 2@L7 He was until a new OMB Dinecton also the Acting Dinecton of OMB was confinmed. His oven two decades of public senvice have included roles as the L7 of the Millennium Challenge Conponation, 18 managing dinecton 19 independent U.S foreign assistance agency established by Congress in 20 2O@4 21 of both Democnatic 22 oven 21 yeans 23 24 25 wLth stnong bipantisan suppont, and and Republican an staffing three White Houses Pnesidents. Mn. Sandy also senved in the Navy Resenve, unden 11 Secnetanies and Acting Secnetanies of Defense. Mn. Sandy, thank you again fon youn youn testimony senvice. We look fonwand to today, including youn knowledge of and involvement in UNCLASSIFIED 6 UNCLASSIFIED policy discussions, meetings, t key 2 dinectly to aneas unden investigation by the committees. Today, we will be primanily focusing on the administnation's 3 4 that nelate and decisions on Uknaine placement of a hold on Uknainian secunity assistance in the summen of 6 this yean thnough the lifting of the hold on Septemben 11. We will also have question about OMB's nesponse to the impeachment inquiny, 7 including the committee's subpoena which 8 the fact that 9 documentany evidence 5 we know OMB continues to defy despite that it has alneady collected significant that goes to the heant of oun inquiny. Final1y, to nestate what oun chainman and othens have emphasized 10 11 in these intenviews, 72 of nepnisal, 13 official L4 colleagues. 15 It is Congness on any attempt will not tolenate any repnisal, thneat to netaliate against any U.S. Govennment fon testifying befone Congness, including you on any of distunbing that the Office of Management and 16 coondination with the White House, has sought to pnohibit L7 fnom coopenating 18 limit 19 20 with the inquiny what they can Thankfully, say. hle consummate and with find this Budget, in its employees Congness and have tried to unacceptable. public senvants like you have demonstrated nemankable counage in coming forwand to testify 22 teII the truth. Befone I tunn to 23 invite the ranking memben on, in the absence of a nanking 24 memben 25 nemank. 2L youn committee counsel to begin the intenview, of the Foneign Affains on Ovensight Committee to UNCLASSTFIED and to I member, any make an opening 7 UNCLASSIFIED L Mn. Jordan? 2 MR. JORDAN: Thank you, Mr. Chainman. 3 I just wanted to welcome Mn. Sandy. 4 And, again, thank you fon youn senvice 5 MR. SWALWELL: Mn. Mitchell? 6 MS. VAN GELDER: He would and then he can have any opening nemanks he wishes. MS. VAN GELDER: Thank you. 9 MR. MITCHELL: 10 This is the deposition of L7 the 72 punsuant 13 House on Septemben 24th. t4 15 House Penmanent Select Committee on to the impeachment Mank Sandy conducted by Intelligence, or inquiny announced by the Mn. Sandy, please state youn fuII name and HPSCI, Speaken of speIl youn last the name fon the necord. 16 MR. SANDY: Mank Steven Sandy, S-a-n-d-y. t7 MR. MITCHELL: Along with othen pnoceedings in funthenance of the 18 inquiny to date, this deposition 19 by the 20 Foneign 2L countny. just like to say two sentences. MR. MITCHELL: WelI, I am going to go over the pneamble finst, 7 8 to the Intelligence Committee is part of a joint investigation led in coondination with the Committees on Affains and Ovensight and Refonm. In the noom today ane majonity will staff and minority staff fnom all 22 thnee committees, and this 23 of course 24 the case in eveny deposition since the inception of this investigation. 25 be a may ask questions duning My name is staff-Ied deposition. Membens thein allotted time, as has been Nicolas Mitchell, senion investigative counsel fon UNCLASSTFIED 8 UNCLASSIFIED t I want to thank you for coming in today to this deposition. I'd like to do bnief intnoductions. To my right is Daniel HPSCI. 2 4 of investigations fon the HPSCI majonity staff. Mn. Goldman and I wil] be conducting most of the intenview for the 5 majonity. 3 Goldman, dinecton I wi}l 1et my countenpants fnom the minonity 6 7 themselves. MR. CASTOR: Good 8 9 intnoduce monning. steve caston with the Republican staff of the Ovensight Committee and HPSCI. 10 11 t2 13 T4 I MR. MITCHELL: This deposition 15 unclassified 1eve1. 16 HPSCI's secure spaces and Howeven, will be conducted entinely at the the deposition is being conducted in 77 in the pnesence of staff with appnopniate security cleanances. We undenstand that youn attonneys also have 18 security cleanances? 19 MS. VAN GELDER: 20 MR. MITCHELL: NO. NO. 23 it's the committees' expectation that neithen questions asked of you non answens pnovided by you will requine a discussion of any infonmation that is cunnently on at any point could 24 be pnopenly classified unden Executive Onden 13526 2t 22 25 Neventheless, You'ne neminded that E.0. 13526 states UNCLASSIFIED that in no case shal1 I UNCLASSIFIED 1 infonmation be classified, continue 2 on fail to be declassified 3 of law on pneventing embarnassment If 4 5 any of oun questions Today's deposition of the sensitive 7 because 8 and matenials 9 deposition Unden 10 11 staff 72 today. that will will of any penson on entity. can only be answened with classified will adjust accondingly. is not being taken in executive and confidential natune of be discussed, access some can discuss the substance will session, but of the topics to the tnanscnipt of the to the thnee committees in be limited You and youn attonney 13 we the House deposition nuIes, no Memben of memben as classified, fon the punpose of concealing any violations infonmation, please infonm us of that and 6 t4 to be maintained attendance. Congness non any of the testimony have an oppontunity to you provide neview the tnanscript. Before we begin, 15 will I would like to go oven the gnound nules for this 16 deposition. t7 depositions, which we have previously pnovided to your counsel. We The deposition 18 t be following the House negulations fon will pnoceed as follows. will be will be given t houn The majonity 20 to ask questions; then the minonity to ask questions. Theneaften, we will altennate back and fonth between 2t majority and minonity in 45-minute nounds until questioning is 19 22 23 24 25 given houn will take peniodic bneaks, but if any time, do let us know. complete. Unden We the House you need a bneak at deposition nu1es, counsel fon othen pensons govennment agencies may on not attend. You are permitted to have an UNCLASSIFIED 10 UNCLASSIFIED 1 attorney pnesent duning the deposition, and At this time, 2 3 if I see you have brought some. counsel could please state thein appeanance fon the necond. 4 MS. VAN GELDER: Banbara Van Gelden, Cozen 0'Connon. 5 MS 6 MS. KAUFFMAN: Allegna Kauffman, Cozen 0'Connor. 7 MS. VAN GELDER: Tnaining session. 8 MR. MITCHELL: There . WI LLIAvIS : Karen Williams, Cozen 0'Connon . 9 that is said hene today 10 deposition. Fon 11 question 12 until 13 is you in onder to make a wnitten necond of the necord to be clean, please wait until the each completed before you begin youn answen and we will wait finish youn nesponse befone asking the next question. The stenognaphen cannot necond nonvenbal answers such as shaking lt's 1.4 youn head, so 15 audible verbal 16 is a stenognaphen taking down evenything We ask impontant that you answer each question with an answen. that you give complete neplies to questions based on youn 18 If a question is unclean on you are uncentain in youn nesponse, please let us know. And if you do not know the answen 19 to a question on cannot nememben, simply say so. L7 20 best necollection. You may only nefuse to answen a the committee. If question to pnesenve a pnivilege you refuse to answen a question on 27 necognized by 22 the basis on pnivilege, staff 23 on seek a nuling fnom the chainman on the 24 ovennules any such objection, yoU'ne nequired 25 Finally, you'ne neminded may eithen pnoceed with the deposition that objection. If the chain to answen the question. it is unden lawful to delibenately UNCLASSIFIED 11 UNCLASSIFIED false information to of Congness staff. It is L pnovide 2 impenative that you not only answen oun questions tnuthfully but that 3 you give 4 Omissions may also be considened as full Membens and complete answens to all false on questions asked of you. statements. 7 this deposition is unden oath, Mn. Sandy, would you please stand and naise youn right hand to be swonn? Do you swean that youn testimony provided hene today wiII be the 8 whole tnuth and nothing but the tnuth? 5 6 As MR. SANDY: 9 do. MR. MITCHELL: 10 11 I Let the necond neflect that the witness has swonn. t2 You may be seated. 13 Mn. Sandy, L4 any mattens if you have an opening statement or youn attonney has to discuss, now would be the time. 15 MR. SANDY: Thank you. 16 Ladies and gentleman, civil I am hene today as a fact witness and a nonpantisan 18 the Executive Office of the Pnesident acnoss administnations. 19 not hene to advocate fon any outcome but simply to 20 all honon I am the oath we shane. 2L Thank you. 22 MR. SWALWELL: AIl night. MR. MITCHELL: Thank you. 23 25 as senvant and militany vetenan who pnoudly senves t7 24 been Mn. Mitchell? We will round. BY MR. MITCHELL: UNCLASSIFIED now begin oun l-houn finst t2 UNCLASSIFIED 7 2 3 a A Office of So, Mr. Sandy, what's youn curnent Deputy Associate Dinecton title? fon National Secunity at the Management and Budget. t2 a Okay. And how long have you had that title? A Since December of 2@L3. a And when did you stant wonking fon OMB? A Initially, I began in L993. I wonked there until L997 and then netunned in 2OLl. a So I take it that you are a caneen civil senvant, not a political appointee, in youn cunrent post. Is that connect? A Yes, sin. a Okay. Can you just genenally descnibe the onganizational 13 stnuctune 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 7L t4 of youn panticulan division on gnoup A Centainly. I at OMB? lead the National Secunity Division, which nesponsibility fon ovenseeing the 15 includes foun branches. 15 budget and pnognams of the Depantment of Defense, the National Nuclean L7 Secunity Administration, the Intelligence Community, and the 18 Depantment 19 agencies. 20 27 22 of Vetenans Affains pnincipally, as well as a few smaI1 a Okay. And what is above the National Security Division? A The Associate Dinecton, who leads the so-ca1Ied Resounce Management Onganization, on And who 24 a A 25 a And 23 And we have is RMO. that? Mn. Michael DuffeY. is that youn immediate supervison? UNCLASSIFIED 13 UNCLASSIFIED A Yes. a Okay. And how many people do you have wonking below you in 1 2 3 the National Secunity Division? 4 A 5 few detailees. Approximately 35 when we ane fu1ly staffed, give on take a a Okay. And just genenally, without going into too much 6 7 detail, can you just 8 cunnent position? A 9 In my in descnibe youn duties and nesponsibilities position, I lead the division. The youn division, ovenal1, 10 is 11 mentioned, in tenms of thein budgets and pnograms and policy pnionities L2 of the administnation. 13 t4 15 nesponsible fon ovenseeing the agencies and depantments a Okay. And befone I fonget, Mn. Duffey, who's youn supenvison, is he a caneen civil senvant on is he a political appointee? A Political. a Okay. In youn cunnent role, have you even had any 16 77 nesponsibilities with A a A 18 19 20 2L that I a to appontionments? Yes. And ane you We individual 22 negand familian with the tenm "appontionment official"? don't use that tenm veny often, but who is if you mean the nesponsible fon appnoving appontionments? Yes, okay. Wene you an appontionment -- did you have the 23 nesponsibility of appnoving appontionments at any given time 24 this 25 cunnent nole? A Yes, I did. UNCLASSIFIED duning 1.4 UNCLASSIFIED a Okay. Genenally, what is an appontionment? A An appontionment is a 1egal document, consistent with 1 2 Title 3 pnovisions in 4 on agencies' use 6 of of U.S. Code, which basically sets panameters appnopniated funds. So, once funds ane appnopniated by Congness, is a 5 XXXI appontionment nequined for those funds to an be spent? t2 A Yes. With veny few exceptions, fon neanly all accounts, an appontionment is requined. a And, just genenally, what does an apportionment look like? It's a physical document, pnesumably? A WeI1, when pninted -- most of oun wonk is now electnonic, of counse, but when pninted, it would have basically columns of 13 infonmation about budgetany sounces and then the application or uses 74 of those sounces, as well as a number of 15 at 16 for 7 8 9 10 L7 t7 it accompanying -- if you look as a spneadsheet, you would have accompanying tabs with footnotes, example, a signatune bIock, et cetena. A Okay. And, again, duning this current nole, thene was a time 18 whene you wene responsible 19 connect fon signing appontionments. Is that ? 24 A Fon appnoving them, Y€s. a Appnoving them and physically signing them? A The signatune is automatically loaded into the system, so it will appean on any apportionment that I appnoved. a Okay. Can you just genenally descnibe the process fon 25 neviewing and appnoving appontionments? 20 2L 22 23 UNCLASSIFIED 15 UNCLASSIFIED A 1 The agency 2 electnonically. It 3 will have into us would have an agency nequest column, and then it typically submits a nequest, a sepanate column fon OMB which comes action. 5 -- and that's the staff level at OMB -- would first neview that appontionment nequest, go back to the agency with any 6 questions, and then, when he on she had completed thein review, would 7 noute that fonwand 8 then noute 4 The examiner Connect. 12 a And when you said the appnoving official, hene we'ne talking about you, connect? A Pneviously, yes. a Okay. And you indicated that the examinen, he on she, might 74 15 consult with the agencies that ane submitting the t7 A 18 a Okay. 19 and the 35 individuals that you oversee? A 16 a neview fonwand 7t 13 who would conduct to the appnoving official. a Okay. And the examinen and bnanch chief, ane those among 9 10 it to a bnanch chief, nequest? Centainly. Can you just genenally describe the convensations, how that back-and-fonth would natune of those wonk? 22 A WeII, the examinens have contacts at thein nespective agencies. And so, if they had questions on concenns about the nequested allocation of funds -- so, fon example, a common allocation 23 would be an allocation acnoss the foun quartens 24 And 20 2L 25 of the fiscal yean. if an examinen was concenned about ensuring that enough nesounces wene left fon, say, the founth quanten, the examiner may ask how the UNCLASSIFIED 15 UNCLASSIFIED 1 agency came up with the allocations that it's nequesting. 5 a Okay. And would those communications between the examiner and the agency typically be documented in one fonm on anothen? A It neally depends. Thene could be email questions and answens, or it could simply be a phone cal}. 6 a okay. And then you indicated that the examinen would then 2 3 4 7 pnovide some sort A a A 8 9 10 And what form would L2 system. L4 15 16 neview L7 well 18 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 to the bnanch chief? that take? That would be an electnonic note with whateven infonmation the examinen a A a neport on necommendation Connect. 7L 13 of deemed nelevant that would be routed fonwand in our online What's the name of youn online system? MAX. Do the examiners communicate with branch chiefs about thein solely thnough MAX, or could it also be done through email as ? A It emails could also be done via email, but to alent people that a Okay. So if infonmation is MAX auto-genenates awaiting an examiner had any concenns about a panticulan request by an agency, would those be neflected A They could communicate their action. be. It depends on how the in the MAX system? examinen chooses that infonmation. a Wel1, where else could it be? A It could also be in an email on in a convensation. UNCLASSIFIED to t7 UNCLASSIFIED a Okay. Once the bnanch chief neceives, 1 eithen thnough email, sont of onal communication, an examinen's nepont 2 the 3 on concenns, what does the branch chief do next? 4 MAX system, on A some The bnanch chief has nesponsibility for neviewing the 16 if the bnanch chief has questions, going back to the examinen, on if he on she supponts the appontionment, nouting it fonward. a Okay. So it's an itenative pnocess between a branch chief and the examinen, on it can be? A It can be. The bnanch chief has authonity, fon example, to basically send an apportionment back to an examinen on noute it fonwand. a Okay. And then, once the bnanch chief -- on how does the bnanch chief go about nouting it fonwand? A That, again, would be within the electnonic MAX system. a Okay. AIso thnough email as weI1, possibly? A Again, if the bnanch chief wanted to communicate additional L7 infonmation, email is an option, but the system auto-generates emails 18 to the appnoving official. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 t4 15 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 appontionment, a second neview and, again, a Okay. So you, as the approving official, when you did have that nole -- A Yes. a -- would you see the necommendations of the bnanch chief as well as the comments on necommendations A Yes. a Okay. Did you of the lowen-level examinens? typically accept the necommendations of youn UNCLASSIFIED 18 UNCLASSIFIED 2 staff with negand to whethen to appnove an appontionment on not? A Genenally. The vast majonity of appontionments ane quite 3 noutine. 1 7 a Okay. Can you necall an instance when you disagneed with youn staff's necommendations? A Yes. a Okay. Without getting into specifics, necessarily, can you 8 just genenally 9 disagnee 4 5 6 or A 10 descnibe the circumstances unden which you would have questions about what was pnesented We11, one key example is, if to you? you have an appontionment, you 11 cannot change the allocations fon a pnevious quanten. So 72 in the second 13 and quanten of a fiscal if you'ne yean and the agency submits a request 16 it changes the allocation for the finst quanten, you can't do that. So if the examiner on the branch chief didn't catch that ennon, I would just catch the ernon and have it corrected. a Okay. A11 night. And was that sont of thing a frequent 17 occunnence L4 15 ? 18 A No. 19 neview, those sonts 20 Genenally, by the time technical issue that 22 nequined funthen consultation 23 that genenally 25 neached the thind leve1 of of issues have been nesolved. a It sounds like what you'ne describing is kind of mone of 2L 24 it A a was mene oversight, not a larger issue that with any othen entity within OMB. Is accurate? Genenally, a that's the case, Yes. Okay. UNCLASSIFIED 19 UNCLASS]FIED 1 What 2 A is OMB's Budget Review Division? The Budget Review Division coondinates exercises acnoss the 3 entine agency, panticulanly with nespect to the development of the 4 annual Pnesident's budget, but 5 6 drills to collect information, often at the behest of policy officials. It also has expents in many of oun cinculans -- fon example, Cinculan A-11. a Okay. 7 it also runs numben of To youn knowledge, have you on bnanch with OMB's Budget Review 8 examinens even consulted 9 panticulan appontionments just to chiefs on any Division about seek advice? A AbsoluteIy. a Okay. And when you wene nesponsible fon reviewing 10 11 and t2 appnoving appontionments, how often would you receive an appontionment 13 to L4 appnove? A I neceived hundreds every yean. 15 tranches, depending upon, fon example, 16 You could always expect heavy volume t7 18 And they came when we had a new at the end in lange appnopniation. of the fiscal yean and at the beginning of a fiscal yean on anound key events such as the enactment of appnopniations on a continuing nesolution. 20 a Okay. And when you neceived these appontionments, is it fain to say that -- we1l, teIl me. Was it a matter of noutine that 2L you would simply sign them? 0n would you carefully scrutinize them 22 and potentially have discussions with bnanch 23 othens about the appontionments, 19 24 25 A I'd centainly if examinens, and appnopniate? have discussions had flagged anything we needed chief, if I had questions or they to discuss. But the vast majonity of UNCLASSIFIED 20 UNCLASSIFIED 1 these ane quite noutine, particulanly 2 seen them before. 3 a 0kay. 4 A11 right. So today we'ne going if to focus on two 5 of security assistance, specifically to Ukraine. 6 Uknaine Secunity Assistance 7 the State-administered foneign militany financing. Can 8 9 Initiative, The you've diffenent types finst is the DOD USAI, and then the second just genenally descnibe and compare you this -- you've done is USAI vensus FMF? And I'm also going to ask you what youn expenience is with nespect to both. 11 A Okay. Let me say at the stant that FMF is not within the punview of my division. So I will not speak to that, because that is t2 handled by oun countenpant divisiori, the Intennational Affairs 13 Division. But I'm glad to speak t4 USAI, as appropniated 10 in the National 15 authonized 16 designed L7 to Uknaine. 18 $250 I in fiscal yeae undenstand that know 2@19 Act, bnoadly is and othen fonms of assistance thene was an appnopniation for youn cunrent nole does not involve but at any point duning your careen did you have any exposune to FMF, 2l FMF issues? 22 A I but Defense Authorization and as million. 20 23 in the defense appnopniations bill to pnovide tnaining, equipment, a 0kay. I 19 to USAI. FMF was pneviously wonked in the International Affains Division, not handled by 24 a Okay. A11 night. 25 So you mentioned my bnanch. the $250 million in UNCLASSIFIED USAI funds for 20t9. Ane 27 UNCLASSIFIED 1 you genenally aware 2 with A a 3 4 5 negand cornect to this of the congnessional notifications that went out $250 million in 2@t9? Yes. So the first notification was anound Manch 5th. Is that ? A I necall the month of Manch. 6 7 IMajonity Exhibit No. 8 was manked fon 10 a this is, I'm going to sin A Yes. 13 a And what 1.4 A It the statutory 15 a And nequinements this was vis-a-vis fon the finst USAI. tnanche of USAI aid in 20L9. Is connect? A Connect. 19 a Wene 20 MS. VAN GELDER: Excuse 27 Have you even seen 22 MR. SANDY: necognizing it you I all have me. this befone? not seen the actual document. I'm just based upon doing a quick scan. BY MR. MITCHELL: 24 25 Do you necognize what is it? 18 23 exhibit No. 1. looks to be a congressional notification consistent with 15 that hand you ? t2 L7 identification. l BY MR. MITCHELL: 9 11 L a Okay, but you'ne familian with the UNCLASSIFIED fact that there was a 22 UNCLASSIFIED 7 congressional notification fon two diffenent tnanches of aid 2 nelated 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 to USAI? A Yes. a Okay. And exhibit No. 1 is the finst tnanche. Is that youn understanding ? A Yes, that's my undenstanding. a Okay. Have you seen the congnessional notification A I have not. IMajonity Exhibit No. TL was manked fon 15 16 t7 18 19 identification.l a Okay.. We}1, just so the necond is complete, I'm handing you exhibit No.2. A a Thank you. And what's the date of this particulan document? A I see the dates stamped as May 23nd and May 28th. a Okay. And it's youn undenstanding that thene was a second congressional notification, which was in the 2L second tnanche 23 24 25 Thene should be two dates up at the toP. 20 22 2 BY MR. MITCHELL: t2 L4 fon the second tnanche? 10 13 in 2OL9 of USAI funds. Is that May time peniod, fon the night? A Yes. a Okay. Ane you awane of, genenally, the intenagency process that led up to these two CNs? A I don't participate in the intenagency pnocess, so I UNCLASSIFIED don't 23 UNCLASSIFIED 1 have detailed knowledge. a Okay. 2 But ane you awane of any concenns that wene raised 3 eithen duning the intenagency pnocess on duning youn time at 4 the spning of 5 notifications neganding the CNs fon the finst and second tnanche of 6 USAI that led up to eithen of these congnessional A f was not awane of anything pnion to the notifications. a To the best of youn recollection, did OMB issue any 8 appontionments fon USAI funds between Manch, which was the of 10 and mid-lune 11 A 72 That account 13 So we would have issued apportionments L4 fiscal The USAI funds ane is the Defense-wide operation and maintenance account. fon that account eanlien in the yean. in an appontionment funds that would've been included t7 funds that wene in that account, on ane they 19 A. a 20 When aII between USAI vensus the langen commingled? They wene commingled. Okay. did you finst leann that secunity assistance funds nelated to Uknaine wene being withheld on might be withheld? calendan. I 23 A 17th. I 24 shontly aften 25 19th. 22 CN, actually included in a langen account. 16 18 finst 2OL9? a Okay. And do you know -- so can you distinguish 15 2t duning ? 7 9 2@19 OMB I'm just consulting retunned to the my my was on leave thnough office on July 18th. And I leanned July of that netunn, so I would say it was eithen July 18th on July UNCLASSIF]ED 24 UNCLASSIFIED I'd just like the necond to neflect, this just fon his -- when he says "my calendanr" it's MS. VAN GELDER: And 7 2 is 3 not his actual office calendan. a blank calendan, BY MR. MITCHELL: 4 a Okay. tnJhen did you go on leave? A I was out of the office starting on Monday, July 8th. a So you did not hean anything about Uknaine secunity 5 6 7 8 assistance possibly being on hold at any time duning the month of lune 9 on duning that A a 10 17 finst week of JuIY? No. Did you hear of any questions that wene being raised by L2 about Uknaine security assistance at the end 13 of L4 15 16 \7 18 2t 22 23 24 25 June or the beginning July? A Yes. a Can you descnibe what You heard? A I heard that the Pnesident had seen a media nepont and he had questions about [Discussion the assistance. off the necond. ] BY MR. MITCHELL: 19 20 of OMB a When did you hear that the Pnesident had seen a media repont and had questions about the assistance? A 0n lune 19th. a Do you know what media nepont that was? A I don't necall the specific anticle. a Who told you that the Pnesident had these concenns on these UNCLASSIFIED 25 UNCLASSIFIED 1 questions ? 3 A a 4 on June 19th? 2 7 10 L1 L2 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that the convensation that you had with Mn. Duffey was was an email. a Okay. Can you descnibe what that email said? A The email expnessed an intenest in getting mone information 6 9 And A I believe it 5 8 Mike Duffey. fnom the Depantment a A a And what of kind of additional infonmation? A descniption What of the pnognam. exactly did Mn. Duffey say, to the best of necollection, in that A Defense. youn email? That the President had questlons about the pness nepont and that he was seeking additional infonmation. a Anything else in that email? A a nequest Not that I necall. Did you have a convensation with Mn. Duffey about this ? A I only recall the emaiI. a Okay. Did you have a convensation with anyone else following this email fnom Mn. Duffey? A The email was dinected to the Depantment neceived infonmation the following day. a Okay. So you wene copied on this email? A Connect. UNCLASSIFIED of Defense, and I 26 UNCLASSIFIED a Okay. And who did Mr. Duffey send the email to at DOD? A As I necaIl, Ms. Elaine McCusken. a And who was she? MS. VAN GELDER: Do you want to speII that last name fon the t 2 3 4 5 neponten ? MR. SANDY: 6 BY MR. MITCHELL: 7 a And who was she? A Deputy Comptnoller. a Okay. Is that someone that you communicate with as pant of 8 9 10 L1 youn nonmal counse A a 72 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Sune. M-c-C-u-s-k-e-r. this of business? Yes. Did you have any convensations with Ms. McCusken following nequest by Mike Duffey? A a She provided me with a hand-copy summany the following day. And when you say she pnovided you physically gave you a hand with a hand copy, she copy? A She did, because she was attending a meeting at OMB. a okay. Did she even send you any electnonic communication as well in nesponse to Mike Duffey's email? A I only necall the hand copy. a Okay. And what was that hand copy? A It was an overview of USAI. a Had you seen this overview befone? document ? UNCLASSIFIED Was it a pnecooked 27 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 A I hadn't seen it before, so I can't speak to its origin. a Okay. And what did you do with this hand-copy document that Ms. McCusken gave you? 11 A We shaned it with Mike Duffey. a Who's "we"? A Sonny. When I say "wer" I genenally refen to NSD staff. a Okay. And how did you shane it with him? Did you physically give it to him, on did you scan it and email it to him? A I necall he was out ofthe office that day, so I don't necall exactly how it was shaned. a Okay. Did you eventually have a convensation with 72 Mn. Duffey about the infonmation 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 13 1.4 15 16 17 18 19 20 27 22 23 24 25 that Ms. McCusken gave you? A I don't neca1l a specific convensation on that. a What about email exchanges? A Not that I necalI. a Did Mn. Duffey come back to you with any additional questions ? A He came back to membens of my staff. a Okay. Can you descnibe what you know about that? A He had a numben of followup questions nelated to the pnognam. a And what were those? A And I don't necall all the specifics, but mone infonmation on the financial nesounces associated with the prognam, in panticular. a I don't -- what does that mean? A 0h, sonny. It would be in tenms of the histony of the UNCLASSIFIED 28 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 5 7 8 9 10 appnopriations, any a A And was a A And So one of my staff a A a Wene A a Okay. 77 Counsel. 18 a 19 reconds 20 A 24 25 that to OMB some has neceived a subpoena fnom Congness for of the topics that you've alneady discussed Yes. Have you undentaken any sont of effonts to gathen documents that might be relevant to the subpoena? A 23 that infonmation Yes. Ane you awane 16 22 membens pnovided you copied on those emails? hene today? 2t Mn. Duffey? electnonically. L2 15 that information provided to how? documents nelated 1.4 details about the intent of the pnognam. Yes. 1L 13 mone Those effonts within OMB ane led by oun Office of the General Have you pensonally gone thnough any to find documents of youn emails on othen that might be nesponsive to the My undenstanding fnom counsel subpoena? is that they - - off the necond.] MR. SANDY: I have not undentaken that in IDiscussion response to such a nequest. off the necond.] MR. SANDY: Sonny. I just want to explain that when OMB decides IDiscussion UNCLASSIFIED 29 UNCLASSIFIED 1 to collect 4 a Okay. Is it the subpoena that 5 A I 6 a 7 A -- 8 a 9 10 11 t2 13 !4 15 it is done centnally. BY MR. MITCHELL: 2 3 infonmation electronically, possible that you also -- weII, have you seen was issued? have seen the subpoena okay. yes. And so you'ne generally awane committees ane of the infonmation that the seeking. Is that cornect? A Yes. a Okay. Do you generally keep hand-copy notes in your office? A Some notes. And we wene advised to netain all that infonmation. a Okay. copies Do you know whethen of those notes to those notes -- did you pnovide anyone? 18 A I have not been nequested to do so. a Okay. So they've been pnesenved. Is that A Conrect. 19 a Okay. 16 !7 20 22 23 Now, you 24 25 But no one has actually collected them, to youn knowledge. A a 2L conrect? Connect. A11 night. indicated that Mn. Duffey had some of youn staff pnovided additional electnonically. Is that cornect? and membens UNCLASSIFIED additional questions infonmation to him 30 UNCLASSIFIED A 1 a Okay. Were you copied on those communications as well? A WeI1, I was copied on them, yes. a Okay. And did you have any conversation with Mn. Duffey 2 3 4 5 of the additional infonmation that A Not that I neca11. about any 6 8 9 A I was shont answen is I don't know. have you had any convensations about whethen Mn. Duffey shaned 16 L7 So Mn. Duffey has these questions on June 18 back-and-fonth between Mn. Duffey 19 Is that 2t connect 24 25 youn is a -- a nequest fnom Mn. Duffey to DOD. initial to DOD, yes. And DOD nesponds thnough you with this The nequest was hand-copy document, ? A a 23 19th, and thene connect? A a 20 with anyone that infonmation with the White House? A I do not neca11. a Okay. A11 night. 15 22 him? not copied on any shaning of that infonmation, so the a Okay. Well, 13 L4 to White House? 7L 12 was pnovided a Do you know what Mn. Duffey did with that infonmation? A I do not know. a Do you know whethen he pnovided that information back to the 7 10 Connect. Conrect. And then Mn. Duffey asks fon additional infonmation, which staff then gathens and submits to Mn. UNCLASSIFIED Duffey. Is that night? 31 UNCLASSIFIED A a 1 2 any 4 duning don't have any convensations with Mn. Duffey penson on over 6 the phone, any mone color on what the Pnesident had concenns about on questions about with negand to A Laten he did. a Okay. When was that? A When I netunned from leave July 18th, I 8 9 10 about this time peniod? A I don't recall the specifics. a Okay. So Mn. Duffey neven pnovided 5 11 And you of these nequests, eithen on email or in 3 7 Correct. was informed USAI? of the to hold militany suppont funding fon Uknaine. a Who communicated that to you? Pnesident's dinection L2 18 A Mike Duffey. a How? A I necall a convensation. a Can you descnibe that convensation? A He communicated that that was the dinection he had neceived. a Okay. I want to know evenything that you can possibly necaIl 19 about that conversation with Mn. Duffey on on about Ju1y 18th on 19th 20 in 21 Uknaine secunity assistance. 13 L4 15 16 L7 22 23 24 25 which he told you that the President had decided to put a hold on A Okay. 0n the 19th, he shaned that he had communicated this dinection to the Depantment of Defense. a "He" being Mn. Duffey? A I'm sonny. Yes. Mn. Duffey. UNCLASSIFIED 32 UNCLASSIFIED a A L 2 3 Okay. He also expnessed a desine to cneate an apportionment that would implement the hold. 5 a A 6 MS. VAN GELDER: Go 7 Ane you neady? 8 MR. GOLDMAN: 9 MS. VAN GELDER: Any mone 4 And he I ahead. Are you done? AM. dentist jokes oven thene? MR. SANDY: And we had a convensation about 10 11 What else? that nequest on Fniday the 19th. L2 MR. SI^JALWELL: Mn. Sandy, whene was 13 MR. SANDY: t4 Office Building. 15 that day, on the L9th. I necall a convensation in the Eisenhowen And then he MR. SWALWELL: So 16 the convensation? also followed up with me Executive by phone laten the finst conversation was on JuIy 19 in the 20 Is that night? MR. SANDY: I neturned onthe 18th, and so I don't recalL exactly what happened on the 18th vensus the 19th in tenms of getting caught up aften having been on leave fon neanly 2 weeks. But I do necall 2L specifically the natune of that L7 18 19 EEOB. MR. SWALWELL: And could you 22 a 24 convensation common set the scene fon us? Is this in space? Youn office? His office? hlhene was the 23 25 nequest. ? MR. SANDY: As I necaIl, it was in a hallway aften a meeting whene UNCLASSIFIED 33 UNCLASSIFIED 2 initial convensation, but the specific nequest was communicated to me via phone laten on the 19th. So I was in my office, 3 and 1 we had an pnesume he was MR. SWALWELL: 4 5 I Mn. Duffey to you in 6 MR. SANDY: He 7 pnobably called him. in his. Okay. youn sent MR. SWALWELL: And, 8 And you neceived a phone call fnom office. me an email saying we needed to connect. I in the email, did he nefenence what you needed 10 just say he wanted to connect? MR. SANDY: As I neca11, it was about Uknaine. 11 MR. SWALWELL: Okay. t2 Mn. Mitchell? 9 to connect about, on did he BY MR. MITCHELL: 13 15 19th. Is that night? A So that was the convensation I him on the 16 17 But it sounds like you had a subsequent convensation with a t4 with the specific request. a 18 A11 night. And you indicated that Mn. Duffey said 19 to 20 descnibe the convensation sunnounding 2L on what cneate an appontionment that 23 a numben 24 that So, on that day, I of questions that he wanted that would implement the ho1d. appontionment might look A Right. 22 25 was descnibing how Can you to cneate this appontionment like with Mn. Duffey on that emphasized we would need day? that that would naise to addness. And so I advised to consult with oun Office of the Genenal Counsel on those questions finst. we would want UNCLASSTFIED 34 UNCLASSIFIED a 1 When you wene speaking with Mn. Duffey, putting aside any 2 subsequent convensation you might have had 3 wene those questions Act a OkaY. A -- and said that we would have to assess that with the advice 6 7 8 of counsel befone pnoceeding. a Okay. And you're not an attorney, connect? A That is correct. a What is youn training with -- youn pnofessional 9 10 1,7 L2 him? A I just made a genenal nefenence to the Impoundment Contnol 4 5 that you naised with with legal counsel, what with negand A 13 tnaining to accounting, fon example? We11, I would say, aII careen staff offices genenally who wonk in these resounce have general awareness of, fon example, L4 management 15 in this case, the Impoundment Contnol Act 20 a Okay. A -- enough knowledge to know when to ask fon advice. a Okay. So, in these specific cincumstances A Yes. a -- when you naised the Impoundment Contnol Act with 21 Mr. Duffey duning this convensation on July 19th, why did you think 22 that 23 implicate the 16 L7 18 19 24 25 a modification to the appontionment to account fon the hold might Impoundment Contnol Act? A Ah. Because these moneys ane what we call which means that their period of availability UNCLASSIFIED 1-yean funds, was expining on Septemben 35 UNCLASSIFIED 1 30th. 2 Contnol Act, we need to ensure 3 befone they expine. a 4 5 And consistent with a layman's undenstanding of the Impoundment And what is that agencies youn undenstanding obligated before they expine, what ane able of, if to obligate funds those funds cannot be happens? 10 A Then they basically expine and they neturn to the Tneasuny. a And thene could be a violation of the fmpoundment Contnol Act if they expine in that way? A PotentiaIIy. a Okay. And that was youn concenn JuIy 19th when you had this 11 convensation with Mr. Duffey? 6 7 8 9 A L2 My concenn was that thene was -- I asked about the dunation 13 of the hold and was told thene was not clean guidance t4 what pnompted my concenn. a Okay. 15 16 L7 18 19 20 So you asked Mn. Duffey about on that. So that's the dunation of the hold. A That is connect. a Okay. What was Mn. Duffey's reaction when you mentioned the Impoundment Contnol Act? A I think he appneciated my concenn and acknowledged that I 2L offened to take the lead in tenms of following up with the Office of 22 Genenal Counsel. 23 24 25 a Okay. So did he dinect you to consult with General Counsel? A I was doing that in my own initiative, but he centainly didn't object. UNCLASSIFIED 36 UNCLASSIFIED 7 a 2 Now, Mn. 3 4 5 that Okay. Duffey, you indicated, was a political appointee. Is connect? A a Yes, he is. Do you have genenal undenstanding Mn. Duffey's the Impoundment Contnol Act at the 6 familianity with appontionments 7 time that you had this convensation on July and of 19th? 9 A I was not awane of any pnevious expenience of his. a A11 night. lust to be clean, are you saying that you don't 10 believe that he had any pnion expenience on JuIy 19th regarding the 11 Impoundment Contnol 8 Act on appontionments genenally? 13 A I was not awane of any pnior expenience that he had. a OkaY. L4 This convensation that you had with Mn. Duffey, did you document L2 t7 it in any way? A No. a Okay. 18 memonanda 19 with Mn. Duffey? 20 A No. I 15 t6 27 22 23 Did you have any followup emails on any sort of that would neflect the fact of the convensation on July 19th followed up by phone with the Office of Genenal Counsel. a Okay. What about in a calendan? Is thene any sont of calendar necond of this meeting on July 19th? 24 A 25 MR. SWALWELL: What day No. did you follow up by phone with General UNCLASSIFIED 37 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Counsel ? I followed up with an initial MR. SANDY: 2 3 evening and then scheduled a subsequent 4 22nd. MR. SWALWELL: So 5 6 convensation that call fon Monday monning, the July 19, in the evening, bY phone, you contact General Counsel. 7 MR. SANDY: 8 MR. SWALWELL: Okay. CONNCCt. BY MR. MITCHELL: 9 11 I think you said you neceived an email from Mn. Duffey saying, "Caf1 me. " Is that t? night 10 a indicated, You A L4 a Okay. L7 A 20 21 22 23 24 25 Do you know whethen anyone told Mn. Duffey to talk hold? So he shaned with me an email that descnibed the desine -- the President's dinection with nespect to the ho1d. 18 19 Yes. to you about the 16 got back fnom leave, ? 13 15 when you you did he shane this email with you? Did he fonwand a How A a A a A a Yes, he did. ? What was As the date of that email? I recall, the date of the email was JuIy 12th. While you wene on leave? Connect. And who was that email fnom? UNCLASSIFIED it to 38 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 TL A Office of the Chief of Staff. a Which Chief of Staff? A 0h. Chief of Staff of the White House, that office. a So Mick Mulvaney's office? A Connect. a And who fnom the Office of Chief of Staff sent this email? A Mn. Robent Blain. a Who is Robent Blain? A He is a senion advisor to the Acting Chief of Staff. a Have you even had any intenactions with Mn. Blain duning the counse of youn duties? t2 A Yes. 13 Secunity Prognams 74 15 16 L7 18 19 20 Pneviously, he was the Associate Dinecton fon National a Okay. of time at A a mone on predecessor. So he was youn immediate supenvison for some peniod OMB? Connect. And then less A a in essence, Mike Duffey's did Mr. Blain go to the Office of Chief of Staff when Mn. Mulvaney went fnom OMB to Shontly thereaften, as I Office of Chief of Staff? necall. And Mn. Mulvaney was a1so, during this time peniod, the 21. Acting Dinecton of 22 precise about my time peniod. In mid-Ju1y of 20L9. 23 A 24 penfonm those 25 a OMB, So he netains connect? He was dual-hatted? Let me be the title of Directon of OMB, but he does not functions. Okay. UNCLASSIFIED 39 UNCLASSIFIED this July 12th email fnom Mn. Blain, what did it say? A To the best of my necollection, that the Pnesident is So 1 2 3 dinecting a hold on militany support funding fon Uknaine. a A 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 74 15 16 t7 18 you 27 23 24 25 Nothing that I recaII. by email to ? A a 20 22 else was in that email? a Was any othen countny mentioned? A No. a Any other secunity assistance package? A No. a Any othen aid of any sont? A Not to my necollection. a Any othen topic at all in this email? A No. a talho did Mn. B1ain send this email to? A Mn. Duffey. a hlho else was on the email? A I don't necall anybody else being copied. a And you indicated that Mn. Duffey fonwanded this 6 19 What Connect. To the best of your knowledge, has that email been netained OMB? A a Yes. Was there anything else in this email string, on was it just that one communication that you've alneady UNCLASSIFIED descnibed? 40 UNCLASSIFTED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A The only -- that was just the one communication. a Okay. And what did you do with that email? A I netained it. a Anything else? Did you fonwand it to anyone? A I am pnetty confident that I would have fonwanded that to members of my staff. a Okay. A11 night. And nemind me again when you neceived 23 this luly 12th email. A So he had made a neference to that dinection, but, as I necall, I didn't actually neceive it until Monday the 22nd. a Monday the 22nd. Okay. So between -- weII, let's take back the clock a couple of days. A Uh-huh. a You had this communication with Mr. Duffey on July 1.9th at EOB. You indicated that thene might be -- you had concenns about the Impoundment Contnol Act. And did you then consult with OMB counsel? A r did. a Okay. I don't want to -- I'm not going to get into what they might've told you. But did you - - I think you indicated that you called OMB counsel. Is that connect? A Yes. I spoke to OMB counsel Fniday evening and annanged fon a conference call Monday morning. a A11 night . I don 't have the calendan in fnont of me. What ' s 24 the date of that 8 9 10 11 L2 13 74 15 T6 t7 18 19 20 27 22 25 A Fniday? Fniday the 19th. UNCLASSIFIED 4L UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 5 7 a Okay. And you annanged fon a confenence caII? A Yes, fon Monday morning. a The 22nd. A Connect. a Okay. At the time that you spoke with OMB counsel, did you have copy of this July 12th email fnom Rob Blain? A No. As I necalI, I received the actual email on the 22nd. a Okay. Aften youn confenence cal] with lega1 counsel? A I don't necall the specific time of day that I neceived the 8 9 10 emai1. TL A 72 Between Okay. JuIy 19th and JuIy 22nd, including July 22nd, did 13 Mn. Duffey pnovide you any explanation as to why the Pnesident wanted L4 to place a hold on Uknaine secunity A a A a A a 15 16 t7 18 19 20 No. Did you ask? Yes. And what was He was To the response? not aware of the neason. the best of youn necollection, what precisely dld he say you when you asked fon the neason fon the Pnesident's decision to 2L to 22 place a hold on secunity assistance? 23 24 25 assistance? A a A That he was not He simply awane. said, "I don't know"? Yes. UNCLASSIFIED 42 UNCLASSIFIED a 1 Did he indicate that he was going to tny to get mone 2 information as to why the Pnesident was placing a hold on secunity 3 assistance A I 4 5 ? learn mone about a A 6 7 am pausing because I -- thene was certainly a desine to the nationale. Whose desire? A desire on the pant of Mike Duffey, myself, and other people 10 this issue. So I want to answer youn question accunately in tenms of saying, that desine was acknowledged. a A11 night. Did Mn. Duffey say that he was going to tny to 11 get additional infonmation as to the 8 9 72 13 wonking on neason A Yes. He certainly said that if infonmation he would shane it with us. fon the hold? he got additional a Okay. At any point in time, fnom the moment that you walked L4 15 into the SCIF to anytime in histony, 16 you a neason why the Pnesident wanted L7 assistance has Mn. Duffey even provided to place a hold on secunity ? A I necall in eanly Septemben an email that attnibuted 18 the hold 19 to the Pnesident's concenn about othen countnies not contnibuting 20 to 2L 22 23 24 25 to mone Uknaine. a What was the date of this email? You said eanly Septemben. A I don't necall the specific date. a Who was the email from? A Mike Duffey. a To who? UNCLASSIFIED 43 UNCLASSIFIED A 1 3 a 4 Do you necall whether this email was befone Septemben 9th on aften September 9th? A Befone. a How do you know that? A I necall eanly Septemben, but not the pnecise date. a Was thene anything else in this email? A Not that I necall. a Was it in nesponse to an email that you had sent? A No, not that I necall. a Do you know what pnompted this email fnom Mn. Duffey to you? 6 7 8 9 10 L1 L2 13 74 me. a Was anyone else on the email? A I don't necaIl. 2 5 To If you know. 16 A I don't know. We have had multiple conversations thnoughout -- stanting in July and continuing about what the reason t7 for the hold was. 15 18 19 20 a WeI1, do you know whethen convensations with Mn. Duffey about A - - did you have any followup this No. UNCLASSIFIED email? 44 UNCLASSIFIED 1 lLt:07 a.m.l BY MR. MITCHELL: 2 4 this the first time that you heand that the hold might be about some sort of concenn that other countnies ane not pnoviding 5 sufficient suppont to 3 a Was A 6 We had neceived infonmation nequesting 7 neceived requests fon 8 were contnibuting a Okay. 9 Uknaine? to additional infonmation on what othen countnies Uknaine. Did you have any othen convensations with Mn. Duffey 10 following this email in early 11 fact Septemben about this email or about A May I consult with counsel? a Sure. Let me finish the question, though. 72 13 the 0n about the of the emai1, the fact of the othen countnies not pnoviding 74 substance 15 sufflcient assistance? off the necond?] MR. SANDY: I just want to clanify, I do necaIl in eanly Septemben IDiscussion 15 t7 18 -- sonry. We had that we got nequests fon infonmation on what additional countries were 21 I would want to be accunate in necollecting the precise date ofthe emai1, so I'd like to amend my pnevious comment and say, I just don't want to pnovide something fa1se, because I don't 22 rememben 19 20 23 24 25 contnibuting to Uknaine. the specific date. BY MR. MITCHELL: a Okay. So it the 9th of Septemben. may have been befone You or it just necall that it UNCLASSIFIED may have been was aften the beginning of 45 UNCLASSTFIED 1 Septemben. A That's cornect, y€s. a Okay. And you indicated that thene wene some communications 2 3 4 or nequests at the beginning of 5 countnies wene contnibuting Septemben, genenally, about what othen to Uknaine? 9 A Yes. a Can you describe how those came about? A I don't recall all the details. We often -- and when I say "wer" sonny, I mean the National Secunity Division staff and I -- will 10 often neceive nequests, and I do necall those nequests fon information. 6 7 8 a A a A 11 L2 13 74 r.5 Fnom whom? The nequests were fnom Mike Duffey. Did he indicate who the nequests wene coming from? As I necaIl, the infonmation was going a Okay. Do you necall seeing any emails L7 this topic at the beginning of Septemben? 18 who was 20 23 24 25 the fnom Mn. with Rob some othen messengen? s nequests ? A on wene they in fonm? A Email communications. a Okay. Did you on youn staff diligently Duffey' Blain about 0n was Mn. Duffey the one A Mn. Duffey was the messenger. a Okay. And wene these email communications, 19 22 be shaned Blain. 16 2t to Yes. UNCLASSIFIED nespond to Mn. 46 UNCLASSIFIED a Okay. And what wene those nesponses? A Data on othen countnies' contnibutions to Uknaine. a Okay. And, again, was that an email? A Yes. a And what did Mn. Duffey do with that infonmation, to the best 7 2 3 4 5 6 of youn knowledge? 74 A I pnesume he shared it with Rob Blair. a Okay. But you don't know that for a fact? A I do not necall whether I was copied on that email. a Okay. When you say it's infonmation about othen countnies' contributions, can you just put a little bit mone colon on that? A WeII, multiple countries are pnoviding vanious types of assistance to Uknaine. So it would've been data on the magnitude and 15 types 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 of assistance that othen countries are pnoviding. a Okay. And what's youn undenstanding of that? A I don't necall all the specific numbens. a Okay. Do you generally necall how the assistance 15 T7 18 fnom othen 19 countnies compared to the assistance provided by the United States, 20 both 21 22 23 24 25 in magnitude and type? A I do not necall the details. a Okay. Wene you the one who was nesponsible fon gathening this infonmation, on was it one of your staff members? A One of my staff membens. a And that infonmation was pnovided to you, but you wenen't UNCLASSIFIED 47 UNCLASSIFIED actually compiling the data on neseanching it 1 the one 2 necessanily neviewing 3 to who was on it in a great amount of detail. Is that fair say? 5 A That's connect. And that's common at OMB, whene we ane a veny flat onganization. So, often, examinens will take the lead in 6 nesponding 4 7 8 9 to what ane punely infonmation requests. a Okay. Did you have any convensations why this nequest was coming fnom Mn. Blain? A Not that I necall. with Mn. Duffey about t4 a Does Mn. Duffey work in the same building as you? A No. a So whene does he wonk, physically, in nespect to whene your office is located? A So my staff and I wonk in the New Executive Office Building, 15 and he works 16 acnoss Pennsylvania Avenue. 10 7L 72 13 t7 in the Eisenhowen Executive Office Building, a Okay. So, as fan as personal intenactions are concenned, 18 is it fain to say that you see youn staff 19 see Mn. Duffey? 20 2L 22 A a fan more fnequently than you Connect. And, presumably, you intenact with youn staff fan mone fnequently than you intenact with Mn. Duffey as well. Is that connect? 24 A a 25 MR. SWALWELL: Mn. Sandy, how many times 23 which is Yes. Okay. UNCLASSIFIED did you follow up with 48 UNCLASSIFIED 7 Mn. Duffey 2 being held? 3 4 9 MR. SWALWELL: And wene these in-penson questions you wene naising? 0n the phone? Email? 0n all of the MR. SANDY: Typically, the discussions above? wene in penson in late I think we wene mone just awaiting any updates that we would receive. So it wasn't as though it came up eveny day. July. And then MR. SWALU,IELL: And why wene you asking Mn. Duffey so 10 in often for L2 of a nationale? MR. SANDY: I think we just wanted to understand and -- 13 MR. SWALWELL: But was L7 74 a nationale? concerns Why wene you that you had about need it fon youn cuniosity, on was it why and MR. SANDY: And when you say "so 15 16 July, and then we wene awaiting 77 to legaI justification? it oftenr " came up updates. it's helpful fon often -- undenstand what the undenlying goal is, but we execute based upon 19 dinection, even 2L if it's not always explained to us. MR. SWALWELL: You said "eanIy JuIy" sorry. IDiscussion off the necord.] 22 MR. SWALWELL: When you 24 25 mostly in eanly we us 23 fon I think, in onden to execute policy, 18 20 was It was an open question oven the counse of late July and pnetty much all of August, as I necall. 7 8 ask fon a nationale on why the secunity assistance MR. SANDY: 5 6 to L9 when you Go ahead. said "ean1y Ju1y," did you mean July 18, first MR. SANDY: meaning when I I'm sonny. Yes. I netunned fnom leave meant in late UNCLASSIFIED eanlien in JuIy. this peniod, 49 UNCLASSIFIED 1 MR. SWALWELL: Can you necall another time in your duties at the 2 Office of 3 assistance was being held up and you Management and Budget whene a significant amount of 7 didn't have a nationale fon as long as you didn't have a nationale in this case? MR. SANDY: Not that I recall. MR. SWALWELL: AII night. We'ne going to kick it oven to the minonity. If you want to take 8 a bnief bneak to go to the bathnoom, you'ne welcome 9 but I'm inclined to keep going if you want to keep going. 4 5 6 That's fine. 10 MR. SANDY: 11 MR. SWALWELL: One houn L2 MR. SANDY: Yes, sin. L4 a 15 Could you t7 18 19 20 21 22 you had Good monning, a -- sir. just pick up the story fnom -- was it on Monday, JuLy 22nd' an in-person meeting with OGC? And I'm not going to ask you about what OGC told you. I undenstand those ane subject to pnivilege. I'm just tnying to undenstand the mechanics here. So, on Monday, July 22nd, you had a confenence call with OGC? A a Conrect. And you didn't meet with them in penson; it was just oven the telephone? 24 A a 25 whethen 23 to the minonity. BY MR. CASTOR: 13 16 to, get a dnink, Connect. And you wene seeking -- IegaI advice, pnesumably, on how to implement the next step? UNCLASSIFIED on 50 UNCLASSIFIED L 2 3 4 5 6 7 A a Connect. did you get that advice? Not asking you what the advice And h,as, but did pnovide you with guidance? OGC A a A And when a okay. INonvenbal nesponse. ] did they do that? So those convensations lasted oven several days. 72 A And the answen to your question is yes. a Okay. And was the guidance -- not asking about the content of the guidance, but did it come over email? Was it an official letten? And when did it annive, finally? A There wene email exchanges, and I neca11 an email that 13 concluded those exchanges on Wednesday, 8 9 10 77 74 15 15 77 a Okay. And I believe you indicated the question was nelating to the Impoundment 24th. 19 implemented. 20 A 2t appontionment. 23 24 25 Contnol Act. A My questions, yes. a Right. Okay. And the issue is nesolved on Wednesday, JuIy 18 22 July 24th. And, obviously, because a A a A Is that of what happened, the hold was connect? The issues addnessed questions that I had vis-a-vis an Right. And so -- I just want to answen youn question pnecisely. Uh-huh. So that appontionment was finalized on July 25th. UNCLASSIFIED 51 UNCLASSIFIED 7 a Okay. And 2 MS. VAN GELDER: Can 3 MR. CASTOR: 4 IDiscussion 5 MR. SANDY: So 6 9 10 11 t2 13 0f counse. off the necond.] I also had convensations with DOD duning this peniod as well. BY MR. CASTOR: 7 8 I talk to him fon a second? a Okay. And what can you telI us about those convensations? A I wanted to get thein insights on these same questions vis-a-vis the Impoundment Contnol Act a Okay. And who were you speaking with at DOD? A Ms. Elaine McCusken. a Okay. And did you ask hen to seek -- did you seek t4 infonmation fnom hen, on did you ask hen to get a legal opinion fnom 15 hen lawyens? 0n what 16 What was L7 did you ask hen? 0n what was she asking the natune of the A of the communication was that hold consistent with the Impoundment Contnol Act. institute a temporany 19 And, y€s, to 20 in those convensations. 22 23 24 25 communication? The natune 18 2L you? how youn question, we aLso discussed including could DOD we counsel a Okay. And these communications with Ms. McCusken wene occunning when? A I initially called hen Monday evening, July 22nd. a So the same timefname? A Same timeframe. And they also extended over the counse of UNCLASSIFIED 52 UNCLASSIFIED 1 4 those days, a Okay. And were there any othen conversations going on at 2 3 any othen agency on any othen 4 to OMB -- OGC. Any othen communications of 7 A I was not, no. a OkaY. A Those were the only. 8 a 5 5 9 10 11 L2 And OMB issued this sont with othen entities? its finst wnitten appontionment with the USAI footnote nestnicting the obligations on July 25th, cornect? A a Conrect. And, in effect, that is the technical tenminology fon implementing the ho1d, conrect? t4 A a 15 And then what can you 13 you'ne talking to DOD, you're talking Conrect. Okay. teII us as the next step in this issue? 20 A And when you say "this issuer " I just a WeII, the funds ane held. A Correct. a And so what is the next event involved hene? Ane you just waiting fon the authonization to lift the hold, on ane you continuing 21 to do wonk on the pnogram? 16 L7 18 19 22 23 24 25 A So we ane continuing to wonk with oun policy officials to get additional guidance. a Okay. And policy officials inside of OMB on policy officials at DOD? UNCLASSIFIED 53 UNCLASSIFIED A Chiefly thnough 1 a A 2 3 4 Mike Duffey -- Okay. but also in the intenagency processes of the National Secunity CounciI. 5 a Okay. And did you get additional 6 And 7 8 9 10 how 13 L4 15 15 t7 18 be is that in effect fon? Is that a 2-week hold? A It was thnough August 5th, as I necal1. a Okay. IDiscussion off the necond.] BY MR. CASTOR: a So the finst wnitten appontionment with the footnote nestnicting the funds goes out on July 25th. A a Yes, sin. And that's holding the funds, in effect, until that's the next A Connect. a Okay. And duning that time peniod, you said you wene seeking guidance fnom policy 20 Secunity Council? 22 23 24 25 August 5th; date? 19 2L cIear, the footnote nestricting the obligations, long 11 L2 just to guidance? A a A a Thnough officials, and you mentioned the National Secunity Council DOD and the National pnocess. Okay. Yes. And what can you te11 us about those communications? Like, who wene you dealing with at the NSC? UNCLASSIFIED 54 UNCLASSIFIED 7 2 A So we wene -- scheduled on Fniday, we pnepaned Mike Duffey July 26th. 4 a At the PCC? A No. That would've 5 a 3 5 7 8 9 10 1L L2 13 74 been for He nepnesented a meeting that OMB. at a deputies level. Okay. And so thene was a meeting on Fniday, July Mike Duffey nepnesented 26th? OMB? A Connect. a A And what can you We pnepared was te1l us about that meeting? Mike by naising a numben of questions that we thought it would be useful to discuss. a Okay. What wene those questions? A Oun pnincipal questions wene: What was the neason fon the hold? The extent? The dunation? And, depending upon the ultimate policy decision, we also said 15 that at the appnopniate time the policy pnocess should addness a 16 congressional affairs approach, a diplomatic appnoach, and potentially 17 a public affains - - again, depending 18 decision. upon when thene was a policy 21. if the policy decision was to penmanently withhold the money, then you'd have to intenact with Congness, you'd have to intenact with the Ukrainians, and you'd have to intenact with the 22 public. Is that 19 20 23 24 25 a A Okay. So night? These would be genenal points that significant policy. a 0kaY. UNCLASSIFIED we would make fon any 55 UNCLASSIFIED A 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 to And, finally, we also naised legal questions that would need be addnessed by attonneys. a Okay. And the lega1 questions nelate to whethen the money to go thnough the nescission pnocess on nepnognamming? A Correct. Depending upon the policy decision, it would naise would have legal questions about implementation. a Okay. But if the hold was lifted, then -A Then those questions would become moot. a OkaY. So those wene the foun aneas you prepaned Mike Duffey? Reason 11 fon the hold, extent of the hoId, duration of the hoId, and, depending L2 on the outcome, what would come next. 13 A Those wene what we saw wene into that meeting, he only had knowledge of the 74 knowledge, going 15 Pnesident's guidance. 16 77 18 19 20 2L 22 a Okay. And did you attend that meeting? A I did not. a Okay. Did you get a neadout fnom Mn. Duffey about the meeting ? A Yes. He expnessed the suppont of other agencies fon pnoviding the assistance. a Okay. So evenybody was 23 to othen witnesses, everyone 24 the hold would be lifted? 25 the key questions. To my A was -- as we undenstand of the same Connect. UNCLASSIFIED it fnom talking mind, that they wene hoping 55 UNCLASSIFIED L a 2 Did any othen decision on infonmation come out of the July 26th 3 it just a gathening to take stock of the situation? A I think it was a gathering at that 1eve1, but thene was no meeting, on was 4 5 Okay. nesolution. 7 a Okay. And did you even get answens to the finst thnee questions -- the neason fon the ho1d, the extent of the ho1d, and the 8 dunation 6 of the hold? 10 A WeI1, I'11 go back to my pnevious nesponse about infonmation that I neceived vis-a-vis the nationale fon the hold, but that wasn't 11 until 9 Septemben. We did not get immediate nesponses on the dunation. 20 a A a A a A a A A 2t Aften the JuIy 26th meeting, what's the next meeting on decision t2 13 74 15 16 17 18 19 22 point 24 25 a, With negard to the extent, in Okay. Was FMF my anea, it only affected USAI. involved too, to youn knowledge? YeS. Okay. But that just That's not So you my anea, isn't youn anea. so I'm -- can't pnovide testimonY. Connect. Connect. Okay. ? A 23 OkaY. So, aften that, we were awaiting what we pnesumed would I'11 call pnincipals-Ieve1 discussion. a Okay. And was that scheduled even? what UNCLASSIFIED be 57 UNCLASSIFIED A I don't recall. 1 2 heand a A 3 4 5 may come up multiple instances in which we -- Okay. but I don't necall thene even being a definitive meeting -- a 0f the pnincipals? A Connect. a Ane you aware if thene was a meeting on JuIy 31st with any 6 7 8 9 the topic Thene wene of the nelevant components hene? 10 A I'm not aware of that meeting. 7L a Okay. Any other meetings you'ne L2 than -- obviously, there's the 7/t8 13 just of, other the 7/26 meeting that you descnibed. A L4 and then awane Again, we often heand that thene was a possibility that this 15 topic would come up as pant of anothen meeting, but we did not get 16 definitive 18 that's the last A 19 20 guidance. a Okay. L7 So you pnepared Mike Duffey PCC type of meeting that Fon an NSC meeting, y€s, but we fon the 7 /26 meeting, and you pnepared him fon? also pnovided information fon oun Acting Dinecton. a Okay. And what infonmation was that, and what date was that? A I necall infonmation that we initially dnafted on August 2nd 2t 22 23 and then infonmation 24 7th. 25 a a that And you say we dnafted "dnafted." fon the Acting Dinecton on August Was it also tnansmitted to Mn. UNCLASSIFIED 58 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Vought ? A My undenstanding is the infonmation on August 7th was, yes. a But not August 2nd? A I don't necall whethen that went beyond Mike Duffey. a Okay. And what was included in the August 7th communication? Was it by email? A It was a memonandum. a Okay. And who was the dnaften of the memonandum? A It was a joint effont by National Secunity Division; 10 Intennational Affains Division, which ovensees State and USAID; 11 Office of LegaI Counsel. the content of the t2 a 13 MS. VAN GELDER: With respect 74 MR. CASTOR: The 15 MS. VAN GELDER: What was pnovided. 16 he L7 as opposed to And so ultimate I'm sayingr what he knows MR. CASTOR: Okay. 19 MS. VAN GELDER: You 20 MR. SANDY: 27 Within oun anea, vis-a-vis 25 to what he pnovided. it contains sections fnom dS long as we go OGC OGC and what with what he provided pnovided. got that? Yes. Yes. it was a description of the current state of play USAI. BY MR. CASTOR: 23 24 memo? memo. Right, but 18 22 and a A And what was the cunnent state of play? The funds wene still on hold at UNCLASSIFIED that point, but -- because s9 UNCLASSIFIED t thene had been a subsequent appontionment. a 2 3 Sth, you When was the subsequent appontionment? That was on August said? 7 A It would've come shontly aften the finst one, which expined on August 5th. So I believe it was on August 5th. a How long was the memo? Do you nememben? A Oh, maybe thnee on foun pages with content fnom those 8 diffenent contnibuting components. 4 5 6 a Okay. Thnee on four pages, and each of the thnee components 9 10 had a piece to the A That's connect. a Okay. And for youn piece, 11 L2 13 memo? about do you nememben anything it? t7 A I do nememben that we pnovided oun necommendation. a Okay. And what was the necommendation? A The necommendation was to -IDiscussion off the necond.] 18 MR. SANDY: The necommendation was 19 MR. CASTOR: Okay. 20 MR. SANDY: t4 15 16 23 24 25 -- to nemove the hold on centain policy anguments. BY MR. CASTOR: 2L 22 mone a Okay. Do you nememben what the policy anguments wene? A One was that the assistance to Uknaine is consistent with the national secunity stnategy -- a OkaY. UNCLASSTFIED 60 UNCLASSIFIED A 1 -- in tenms of supponting the benefit fnom the pnognam stable, peaceful Eunope. a in of tenms Second opposing Russian 2 was 3 aggnession. Anothen argument pentained to the bipartisan suppont fon 4 the 5 pnognam. a At this point in time, evenyone 5 the National Secunity Council,.DOD, 7 would be lifted? 8 9 10 11 L2 13 L4 15 A I don't want to OMB speak fon my -- -- and by "evenyoner" wene I mean hopeful that the hold policy officials. That was, again, staff-Ieve1 necommendation. And so I will not speak for my policy officials in tenms of thein position. a A Youn And policy officials being Mn. Duffey and his the Acting Directon. a Okay. Who does Mn. Duffey repont to? A At that time -- we11, he reponts to the Acting Dinector. did not have an Acting Deputy at that point. We 16 a OkaY. 17 And the memo that went on August 7th to Acting Dinecton Vought, 18 did he have an action item, on was it infonmational? 22 A It was infonmational in anticipation of a pnincipals-level discussion to address this topic. a Okay. Now, at that point in time, did Mn. Duffey have a diffenent view than you? You said you didn't want to speak fon 23 Mn. Duffey on Mn. Vought. You pnepaned the memo. Did the 24 thnough Mn. Duffey? 19 20 2L 25 A It did. UNCLASSIFIED memo go 61 UNCLASSIFIED a And did he okay it, appnove it? A Yes. a Okay. So you shaned the same views as Mn. Duffey on this 1 2 3 4 issue at this time? 8 A In tenms of -a In tenms of policy necommendation? A In tenms of that necommendation. a Okay. 9 And then what happened 5 6 7 10 memo was tnansmitted to Mn. Vought? A I don't necall getting clanity. a And was thene a meeting that Mn. Vought was prepaning fon, 11 t2 13 next, aften the to nepnesent OMB at the -- L4 MS. VAN GELDER: My apology. 15 IDiscussion 16 MS. VAN GELDER: off the record.] Again, not tnying to take sides hene, but I think L7 we've jumped fnom the 25th of JuIy to the 7th of August, and you might 18 want 19 two dates. to ask if anything intenvened vis-a-vis All MR. CASTOR: 2L MR. GOLDMAN: You 22 MS. VAN GELDER: 24 25 client between those night. 20 23 my don't want to stay here all I just lost my 2 o'clock Pilates. BY MR. CASTOR: a Yeah. I'm tnying to hit the nelevant -A I undenstand. UNCLASSIFIED day? 62 UNCLASS]FIED a -- t 2 is 4 5 meeting. 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 A a Cornect. And then July 26th, you walked us thnough pnepaning fon the Cornect. No real clanity came out of the meeting, as I undenstood youn testimony. A Connect. My undenstanding was a Right. A remained the same. a Okay. And then, fnom July 26th, facts nelevant here was you began dnafting 15 on August 2nd, pnesumably L7 18 19 20 A I know to that thene on August 2nd, but mone pnominent in my that was shaned with him necollection is the August 7th. a Okay. And have we missed anything between the July 26th and August 2nd? A We11, in tenms of the appontionment pnocess, you mentioned 22 appontionment 25 next undenstanding of a memo, and a dnaft was sent was infonmation the subsequent appontionment, but that 24 my Mn. Duffey? 2t 23 that the President's guidance 74 L6 The hold issued on the 25th, on the footnote nestnicting the obligations. A a 3 that happened. you know, the nelevant events was not -- I did not sign that a Okay. A because thene had been a change in the delegation. a Okay. So up to August 2nd, though, we're stil1 good, night? UNCLASSlFIED 63 UNCLASSIFIED 've covened aI] the nelevant facts 1 We 2 which was a Fniday, night? ? We had the meeting on J uly 26th, 3 A 4 a Okay. So any nelevant facts between Fniday, July 26th, and 5 the August appnoving appontionments made Mike Duffey the appnoven. a Okay. And what can you te1l us about that? A The delegation is fnom the Pnesident to the Acting Dinecton, 8 9 10 2nd? A Yes. So, on Tuesday, JuIy 30th, the delegation fon 6 7 Cornect. and then the Acting Dinecton issued a change in delegation. 13 a Okay. And do you know why? A We met with Mike Duffey -- sonny -- "we" is my division -- met with Mike Duffey on the 31st, in which he explained 74 that thene 15 moneys 11 t2 16 a A 18 20 mone And he neganded a And you ane it, 22 to Mn. Duffey? 25 the leadenship in tnacking the uses of had this nesponsibility as a way fon him to leann about the specific accounts within his anea. undenstand 24 among Okay. 2t 23 intenest closeIy. He had an intenest -- sonry -- "her" Mike Duffey, an intenest in being mone involved in daily openations. 17 19 was A a A the Deputy Associate Dinecton. And, as I thene's anothen Deputy Associate Dinecton that neponts Yes. And was he taking that authonity fnom both on just youn -- Yes, the change applied to both National Secunity Division UNCLASSIFIED 64 UNCLASSIFIED L and Intennational 2 Duffey. 3 4 Affains Division, both of which nepont to a Okay. And was this the Uknaine change -- did it have anything to Mike do with funds? 5 A I'm not awane of a connection. 6 a Okay. So this decision of Mr. Duffey was just an 7 organizational decision, unnelated to this particulan hold, to the best 8 of youn knowledge? 9 10 TL 72 13 14 15 16 A I shaned with you the reasons that he pnovided. a Okay. A And, a1so, just to be clear, the memonandum is signed by the Acting Dinecton to make that change. a Okay. And did you have any meetings with him whene he explained the nationale to you? A lust those thnee neasons that division when we discussed this he shaned with my entine on the 31st. 18 a Okay. But, prion to the meeting with the entine division, did he have a personal communication with you, whethen it's in-penson 19 on on the phone? 77 20 A 2L had explained 22 23 24 25 He had alerted me in penson eanlien that week, but basically it in the same tenms. a Okay. And did you expness any concenn to him? A Yes. a And what wene those concenns? A The concenns that staff and I expnessed included that it's UNCLASSIF]ED 65 UNCLASSIFIED 1 a substantial workload, and we usually are veny pnotective of the 2 Associate Dinecton's time, so we wene concerned about how much time 3 this a 0kay. A I think 4 5 6 would consume. people wene cunious what he thought he would leann fnom appontionments about the accounts as opposed to the othen, you 8 of infonmation. And staff wanted to ensune that this did not neflect any sort of loss of tnust. 9 a Okay. And did he communicate to the group that it did not, 7 know, sounces 10 in fact, constitute a loss of tnust, that 11 mone 13 t4 leann had nothing to do with the competence of your team. A Conrect. He said it had nothing to do with that. a Okay. And did you feel like he was being stnaight with you? A Yes, I took him at his wond. a Okay. And so he became the appnoving official through this 15 16 77 18 19 just tnying to about his job? A Yes, he did. a Okay. So it L2 he was de legat ion ? 24 A Connect, as of July 30th. a Okay. And the appnoving official is the thind level of neview, I think you mentioned? A Yes. a Thene's the examinen, the bnanch chief, and the approving 25 official 20 2t 22 23 ? UNCLASSIFIED 65 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 L0 11 12 13 A a A Conrect. this add, in effect, a founth level? No, it did not. The way it was implemented was that he Did basically replaced me as the thind 1evel. a Okay. And did that loss of job nesponsibilities -- was that okay with you? A It removed an administnative -- langely administnative task -- a okay. -- I mean, I shaned the same concerns about the bunden it would place on him. We also pnionitized the timeliness of oun nesponses to agencies, so we wanted to ensune that we could continue to suppont that. A -- so I was not upset about the 15 a Okay. And aften the bnanch chief completes his on her assessment wonk, it went stnaight to Mn. Duffey, then, unden the new 16 anrangement l4 L7 18 19 20 2L ? A Connect, once that was implemented. a So you didn't neview it at all? A Connect. Apportionments no longen flow to me. a Okay. Okay. Unless, of counse, a pantlculan bnanch chief had questions and wanted 23 A a 24 And, as you 22 25 months. to lean on your expentise? Connect. Okay. sit hene Do you genuinely today, it's, you know, been a number of believe that Mn. Duffey's stated UNCLASSIFIED neasons 67 UNCLASSIFIED L wene, 2 in fact, what he said they wene? A Again, I took him at his wond. He also has 3 delegate funthen, and we simply said, particulanly 4 becomes ovenwhelming, 5 case at the end that he always has of the fiscal the option to if the wonkload that option, which can be the yean and the beginning of the fiscal year. a Okay. And has he? A To date, he has not. 5 7 11 a Okay. So has the anrangement wonked out okay, in youn opinion, on is it problematic? A I mean, we ane -- we continue to pnocess apportionments. a Okay. It hasn't cneated a pnoblem in the onganization in t2 tenms 8 9 10 13 L4 of delay? A Thene was a slight delay L7 18 So he communicates 16 19 20 2t 22 up Okay. But it seems to be wonking smoothly now. Okay. that to the group on Wednesday, Ju1y 31st. A Connect. O So, back to the calendan -A Okay. a -- did anything nelevant happen between Wednesday, July 23 31st, and -- you mentioned the 24 on Fniday, August 2nd. Any othen nelevant 25 to get him set in the system. a A a 15 because we had A memo, dnafts of the memo, wene occunning Nothing comes to mind, othen than that thene was anothen UNCLASSIFIED 58 UNCLASSTFIED 1 in that appontionment a Okay. 2 3 memo, on 4 was peniod. So Friday, August 2nd, you stanted wonking on the at least a dnaft of the memo, to the Acting Dinecton, which ultimately tnansmitted on August 7th? 6 A Just to clanify, I necall some information went to Mike Duffey on the 2nd. I necall mone cleanly the infonmation that was 7 pnepared on 5 a Okay. And, on August 5th, the second hold occunned, and 8 9 Mn. Duffey signed that one? A That's connect. a Okay. What's the next key event in this IDiscussion off the necond. ] 10 11 t2 matten? BY MR. CASTOR: 13 a t4 15 the 7th for the Acting Dinector. And maybe I should do a negulan check-in. Have I missed any key events? I am sonny. I just 16 MS. VAN GELDER: L7 MR. CASTOR: You wanted to walk thnough the MS. VAN GELDER: No. I'm just saying that, since he's now 18 19 nemoved fnom 20 is. the process, you would have to define what a "key event" You'ne assuming he knows what a key event is. BY MR. CASTOR: 2L 22 a 23 to this 24 A So 25 a okay. Do you have any finsthand knowledge of other facts nelated matten aften Mn. Duffey takes the authonity? I was awane of the senies of UNCLASSTFIED appontionments. 69 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A I don't have all the dates memonized. 2 a Okay. 3 A Yes. a -- appontionments? A Cornect. a How many, appnoximately? 5 6 7 days week? Eveny 2 weeks on The time peniods vanied, but I necall at least anothen a Okay. A -- fnom the peniod of eanly August until Septemben 12th. a Okay. MR. MEADOWS: Mn. Sandy, I want to make sune I -- you said a L2 13 L4 half-dozen? Anothen half-dozen? 15 MR. SANDY: Anothen half-dozen. L7 MR. MEADOWS: As it 18 MR. SANDY: Yes, sin, with the footnote. 19 MR. MEADOWS: Okay. 20 BY MR. CASTOR: a 27 And nelates to Uknaine? did you have any communications duning this 22 with Mn. Duffey about that decision, on was 23 infonmation, the money is on hold A 24 25 10 half -dozen appontionments 11 15 Eveny ? A 9 10 5th, and then thene's subsequent 4 8 So we go fnom August of That was kind timefname it just the same set of and of the status quo, as I necall, thnough August UNCLASSIFIED much 70 UNCLASSlFIED a A 1 2 OkaY. in tenms of, there was pnocessing of the subsequent to of a policy decision; and, of 3 appontionments; we were waiting 4 counse, the subsequent apportionments continued the hold on USAI funds, 5 obligations. a Okay. And did you have any meetings duning that timefname? A I mean, we meet fnequently on a range of diffenent topics. a About the Ukraine A I don't necall a significant meeting specifically on this 5 7 8 9 10 topic. a 11 But did you even get any feedback fnom the 72 Associate Dinector 13 the 14 15 hean memo -- I'm sonry, the Acting Dinector, Mn. Vought, fnom on August 7th? A No. Oun undenstanding was that both Mike Duffey and Russ Vought would alent us if thene wene any updates. 22 a OkaY. A But we were awaiting infonmation. a And just to go back to the change in delegation -A Yes. a -- you stated Mn. Duffey told you that he just wanted to learn mone about the pnocess. And it was neven, in youn mind, some sont of -- his neasoning had nothing to do with political considenations, 23 did it? L6 t7 18 19 20 21 24 25 A a Again, I took Mike at his wond. OkaY. UNCLASSIFIED 7t UNCLASSIF]ED 1 IMinonity Exhibit No. 3 2 was manked fon identification.l BY MR. CASTOR: 3 5 a I'm going to mank as exhibit 3 -- this is a thnee-page document. The finst two pages ane identical lettens to the Budget 5 chainman and the Appnopniations chainwoman 7 thind page is an attachment. 4 10 It's House, and then the I'lI just nead the coven letter portion to identify this. dated October 3rd. And And 8 9 in the depantment A a 11 t2 at this is a letten fnom the Leg Affains OMB? Yes. -- "Mn. Chairman" neading the Yanmuth letten dated Octoben L4 3nd "The Office of Management and Budget neceived youn Septemben 27 , 2OL9, Ietter nequesting infonmation and documents about OMB's 15 appontionment 16 pneliminany response. 77 nequests 18 And 13 in actions. 20 halfway down the 21 And 23 24 25 will be in enclosed a contact about the nemaining thene's an attachment that walks thnough a two-panagraph explanation. 22 We find youn letten." 19 lt Pen youn nequest, please And -- or read the sentence about beginning with "in its appontionment. " I'm going to identify finst paragnaph night aften the cite to the account TAFS 97-OLOd/20L9. A Yes. a I'm going to nead this sentence. A Yes. a "In its appontionment, OMB noted that it 'undenstands fnom comes DOD UNCLASSIFIED 72 UNCLASSIFIED will 1 the Department that this bnief pause in obligations 2 DOD's 3 its 4 nemaining unobligated USAI funds wene made available 5 fon FY 2Ot9 on September 12, 6 7 8 9 10 timely execution of the final policy dinection. planning and casewonk fon the Initiative duning not preclude DOD may this continue peniod. for ' use by The DOD 2OL9." A Yes. a Have you seen this letten on explanation befone? A Yes, I have. a Okay. And is this consistent with youn understanding of what had happened, that L6 A Yes. a Okay. So the pause in funds didn't pneclude DOD fnom continuing its planning and casewonk? A Connect. a Okay. And so, duning this time peniod, if the hold was lifted, then the wonk that needed to be penfonmed would have, in fact, T7 been penfonmed? IL t2 13 t4 15 2t A So the hold pentained explicitly to obligations. a Uh-huh. So do you intenpnet this that the hold would ultimately, hopefully, be lifted? I mean, if it was going to go through a nescission on a nepnogramming effort, the planning and casewonk 22 pnobably would not 18 19 20 23 24 25 continue. Is that fain? -- the footnotes, again, only restnicted obligation, and the footnotes all allowed for the continued wonk on planning and casewonk, and the footnotes all had distinct peniods of A So let me answen UNCLASSIFIED 73 UNCLASSIFIED 7 time. 16 a Okay. Did you consult with the Leg Affains office befone they sent this letten out? A Yes. a Okay. And did you help prepane this A Yes. a -- on just review it? A I neviewed it and pnovided edits. a Okay. And wene youn edits neflected in the final outcome? A Yes. a Okay. And this is accunate, to the best of youn knowledge? A Yes. I'm speaking to the finst panagraph because the second is not within my punview. a Okay. Is thene any othen infonmation that I haven't asked you about this letten and the attachment that you want to tell us about? A Again, as I said, this is a summany of multiple t7 apportionments 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a Right. A -- so -- and I believe you've neceived the apportionments. Is that connect? a Yes. A Okay. A Wene thene any bniefings with the HiIl A Not to my knowledge. A Okay. Was thene any othen infonmation UNCLASSIFIED on thls? tnansmitted to the 74 UNCLASSIFIED L Hill ? 8 A Transmitted when? a Subsequent to this. A Not to my knowledge. a Okay. Is it fair to say that holds of this type do happen fnom time to time for any numben of neasons? A I guess it depends on when you say "of this type." So, consistent with title 31 of U.S. Code, apportionments can nestnict 9 funds based upon a time peniod, a punpose, on a combination of the two. 2 3 4 5 6 7 a A 10 LT Uh-huh. So, in many of the noutine appontionments, we wouId, fon 12 example, appontion the moneys by quanten. Anothen example would 13 appontioning by specific punpose. And anothen would be apportioning t4 subject to, fon example, an agency pnoviding a spend plan. 15 a Uh-huh. Okay. 16 MS. VAN GELDER: SPend, s-P-e-n-d? L7 MR. SANDY: Spend. BY MR. CASTOR: 18 a 19 Did youn communications with Elaine Mccusken 20 subsequent communications aften 27 nesponsible fon? 23 25 -- did you have the appontionment that you wene A I was copied on communications that she had with Mike Duffey. a Okay. And what do you rememben about those communications? 22 24 be How often, and what wene the content? A So, again, setting aside I UNCLASSIFIED had sevenal communications 75 I,]NCLASSIFIED L pnion to the appontionment that I a Connect. A So setting that aside? a Yes. A Okay. I know that she and Mike Duffey wene in communication 2 3 4 5 the subsequent appontionments, and thene was a 6 sunnounding 7 about 8 peniods nestnicting obligation. 9 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 L7 22 23 24 25 of the continued a Okay. A That it ful1y -- fully obligated. a Okay. And what do you recall fnom the natune of those concerns? Like, what did she say? And this is on email? A Cornect. We11, I'm awane of the emails, obviously, on which I was copied. a Right. A I'm also awane that they had phone convensations of which 19 2t she expnessed a concenn about the impact concenn a Okay. And what wene hen concenns? That the money wouldn't be able to be spent if the hold was lifted? A Yes, that was the concenn. 18 20 signed. I was not a pant. a Okay. And did you neceive readouts of those phone convensations on A a no? No. Did you even, fon the appontionment that you were nesponsible fon, did you object? Did you object to implementing it? I.]NCI,ASSIFIED 76 UNCLASSIFIED A No. I L 2 questions that 3 footnote. a 4 5 wonked very I Okay. had and then was confident And youn decisions wene in signing it with that also based in pant on consultations with the lawyers, right? 6 A Absolutely. 7 a 8 MR. CASTOR: 9 canefully on the footnote to addness the Okay. I want to make sune that there are some Memben oppontunities hene. 10 Mn. 11 MR. MEADOWS: Thank Meadows? you, Mn. Sandy, fon youn testimony. And so L2 I'm going to tny to understand this process that is so foneign to 13 and 74 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2t that it's not foneign to you. So what you'ne saying is, the finst appontionment -- and fon layman tenms, the finst hold that was put on Uknaine -- would it be I appneciate of appontionment? 0n the finst hold was put on sometime in Ju1y. Is that connect? MR. SANDY: That is connect. I signed that on July 25th. MR. MEADOWS: And the wond "holdr" is that, fon a layman's tenm -- I know you're mone sophisticated on this, but from a layman's term, is that an accurate neflection of -accunate to say a hold instead 22 MR. SANDY: 23 MR. MEADOWS: 24 MR. SANDY: 25 me, YCS. -- an administnative hold? Yes. I funding insofan as DOD would say that the appontionment held the could not obligate the funds, but UNCLASSIFIED it was very 77 UNCLASSIFIED L expliclt about allowing the planning and casewonk MR. MEADOWS: So 2 the holds that to continue. wene placed on thene if you're going to obligate said: funds. Go 3 ahead and plan on as 4 not going to stop you fnom doing youn planning pnocess to obligate. 5 We'ne 6 just going to put a hold on you making that final to obligate. Is that connect? 7 MR. SANDY: Yes, sin. 8 MR. MEADOWS: 9 these wene Okay. We're declanation a half-dozen holds that And you mentioned put on in the months of August and September. Is that connect? At least a half-dozen, 10 MR. SANDY: 11 MR. MEADOWS: 72 layman's tenm, the 13 Because if yes. Okay. So I guess the finst -- and, again, from holds wene longen than we had a half-dozen that happened that, wene a they not? in a 34-day peniod, it's 15 like they wene saying, we1l, we'ne going to hold it fon a few mone days to see if we get a nesolution, a few more days. Is that what 16 happened t4 almost ? t7 MR. SANDY: Yes, 18 MR. MEADOWS: sin. Okay. They wene of varying lengths. So these vanying lengths that they'ne 19 putting these holds on, they'ne saying, weII, we'ne hopeful that not 20 only can 2L 22 23 we continue to p1an, but we want to obligate, in a few days or a week on smaller time oniginal hold. Is that connect? doing these MR. SANDY: to 24 would have 25 vanying lengths Sin, and so we wene peniods than the I don't necall all the specific timefnames. I check reconds to know the exact dates, but they and UNCLASSIFIED wene of 78 UNCLASSIFIED MR. MEADOWS: But you'ne 1 2 so fnom the time peniod 3 wene allowed to be obligated on Septemben the L1th. MR. SANDY: Right. 5 MR. MEADOWS: And you had to have been MR. SANDY: YCS. 8 MR. MEADOWS: 10 11 12 13 and we're going divide that by six. The avenage would've just a few days in dunation. Is that conrect? 7 9 on that we'ne looking at until ultimately the funds 4 6 a math guy. So let's take 35 days Okay. And so, if we have a few days with this pnocess and you'ne having in dunation all of these - - then all of a sudden, sometime in Septemben, you get a nequest fon additional information that says, "By the way, what ane othen countnies contnibuting to Uknaine in tenms of aid?" Is that cornect? That was neflected in youn pnevious testimony. Is that cornect? 16 is connect. MR. MEADOWS: A11 night. And so, all of a sudden, we'ne having these shont-tenm holds. The whole time, the DOD is planning to L7 obligate these funds. You'ne not wonking on any nescission packages. 18 Is that L4 15 MR. SANDY: That conrect? I 19 MR. SANDY: 20 MR. MEADOWS: was not. Okay. So would you nonmally wonk on a nescission 24 if the administnation had made a final detenmination that these funds were never going to be obligated? MR. SANDY: There was no decision to pnopose a nescission. MR. MEADOWS: Right. But I guess, pneviously, thnoughout youn 25 entine caneen, have you even worked on a nescission package? 27 22 23 package UNCLASSIFlED 79 UNCLASSIFIED 2 3 4 5 6 7 I'm not MR. SANDY: 1 with sune that I've wonked on one, but I'm familian them. MR. MEADOWS: But would that be unden youn anea of nesponsibility? MR. SANDY: 0h, certainly. No, if thene had been a nequest to nescind MR. MEADOWS: AII night. 11 -- the fund, we would've wonked on it. MR. MEADOWS: So I'm just, again, trying to get the context of all of this. What we have is, we have a peniod of time whene these shont-tenm holds ane being placed on. Thene's the planning pnocess L2 that allows 13 a neal estate guy would say. They can 1.4 diligence. Is that 8 9 10 MR. SANDY: them to continue to work on their still cornect? UNCLASSIFIED due diligence, is work on thein due what 80 UNCLASSIFIED 1 It2:@8 p.m.l 2 MR. SANDY: Yes, 3 MR. MEADOWS: the planning and casewonk. Okay. And so they are wonking on thein just can't make that final obligation. due 4 diligence. 5 shont-term holds on it with the anticipation that one day that 5 will get pu1led off because evenybody was 7 8 9 10 TT They in agneement You'ne making hold that that was in the United States' best interest to do that. Is that connect? MR. SANDY: lust I want to clanifY -MR. MEADOWS: Were you in agreement hopeful that the hold would be removed? MR. SANDY: that that Was was what you wene that youn personal view? YCS. 15 I thought that was a softball question so -- and So, as we look at this, I guess what I'm tnying to take all of this, the last 2 houns, and boil it down into just one anea fon me, and that is that we had the shont-tenm hoIds. And, all of a sudden, we get some 16 additional infonmation that's pnovided in 77 contnibute to Uknaine aid, and then the aid was released. t2 13 74 18 L9 20 MR. MEADOWS: fain chanacterization? MR. SANDY: , In tenms of the MR. MEADOWS: Okay. And tenms of what othen countnies Is that a sequencing, yes. so, as we look at the othen countnies, that the United States has a dispropontionate nole in 2L would you say 22 Uknainian aid on aid to the Uknaine Govennment, a dispnopontionate role 23 based on 24 oun Eunopean countenpants? 25 the neseanch that MR. SANDY: Sin, I'm was provided. sonny I Do we pnovide more aid than probably should have studied those UNCLASSIFIED 81 UNCLASSIFIED I don't necalI the specifics, and I 1 data before coming. 2 to othen depantments and agencies. 3 MR. MEADOWS: A11 night. told Wou1d it would defen sunpnise you that we've had that, indeed, 4 othen witnesses that have 5 the United States plays a largen nole in Uknaine aid than oun Eunopean 6 countenpants? Would us unden swonn testimony 7 that sunpnise you? MR. SANDY: A langen role individually on collectively? 8 MR. MEADOWS: 9 6enmany or WeI}, financially. Would we pnovide mone than say Fnance? talking about the militany aid on all aid? 10 MR. GOLDMAN: Ane you 11 MR. MEADOWS: What we'ne talking about is -- well he is only able 15 aid. So let's just keep it specifically in tenms of what he's thene -- I would place it in a -- since Mn. Goldman's the attonney and I'm not, why don't we look at it as secunity assistance. How about that? Do you believe -- is it youn 16 pensonal t7 assistance 12 13 L4 18 to talk to this panticulan DOD belief that the United States pnovides to Uknaine than MR. SANDY: I mone secunity say Genmany on France? am awane that othen countries pnovide othen types 19 of aid. Sir, I'm neluctant to ask, just as a data penson, 20 don't have the 27 22 I I only want youn infonmed opinions. So we'11 go on to one othen final question, and then I will yield back. MR. MEADOWS: We11, 23 MR. SANDY: Okay. 24 MR. MEADOWS: When we 25 because look at the key events in Septemben and that infonmation and by that infonmation, the infonmation that would say UNCLASSIFIED 82 UNCLASSIFIED L that the administnation 2 OMB 3 in made a nequest fon additional infonmation fnom of what othen countnies pnovided to the followed up on that request. Is that connect? tenms Uknaine, you 6 staff did, yes. MR. MEADOWS: And youn staff provided that infonmation. And you would say that that infonmation was pnovided some -- sometime in the 7 finst 4 5 MR. SANDY: My week of Septemben. I necalI, yes. A11 night. I would yield 8 MR. SANDY: As 9 MR. MEADOWS: 10 MR. CASTOR: Any othen memben questions? 1T Mn. Zeldin. 72 MR. ZELDIN: Mn. Sandy, thank you 13 MR. SANDY: Yes. 74 MR. ZELDIN: Can you speak -- 15 have 16 time at fon being hene. what othen countnies thene -- thene have been holds placed on aid duningyoun OMB? MR. SANDY: None 17 18 and pnognams to back. that I'm awane of within my purview. So, again, I'm not speaking fon anything in the State USAID. MR. ZELDIN: But you'ne 19 not awane -- I mean, open sounce, 20 publicly neponted of 2L holds placed on aid since the Pnesident's been thene, connect? MR. SANDY: 22 23 diffenent countries and prognams getting 0h, in State again I don't ovensee those MR. 24 25 many ZELDIN: l,rle1I, it and AID I'm awane of that neponting, but pnognams. would just be OMB. UNCLASSIFIED in a diffenent depantment of 83 UNCLASSIFIED it in a diffenent division. MR. ZELDIN: Okay. But you ane awane of all -- what neponting MR. SANDY: Yes, 1 2 3 ane you aware of? 4 MR. SANDY: I'm would be of -- again intennal awane 5 not -- this is not within 6 But 7 restnicted. my punview So -- MR. ZELDIN: And you 9 MR. SANDY: MR. 10 In got to youn cunnent position what yean? Decemben 20L3. ZELDIN: You've been senving the MR. SANDY: Decemben. 13 MR. ZELDIN: December 20L3. L4 MR. SANDY: Yes. 15 MR. ZELDIN: Can you 16 admi.nistnation, t7 pot of money fiscal fill position since Octoben me in on, towands the end of the Obama year 2OL6, thene was an appnopniation fon this that we're discussing today, 18 MR. SANDY: Fon USAI} 19 MR. ZELDIN: Yes. 20 MR. SANDY: 22 same 20t3? L2 21 with nespect to othen countnies. I can't speaktothe specific natune of howthose -- howfunds wene 8 11 conversations but I'm Yes. connect? Thene's been an appnopniation fon multiple yeans. MR. ZELDIN: Wene you involved at aII in the decisionmaking 23 pnocess? Ane you familian with the decisionmaking pnocess with 24 negards 25 administration to not pnoviding lethal aid towands ? UNCLASSIFIED the end of the Obama 84 UNCLASS]FIED t 2 I do not have a necollection of that. I think that was pnincipally -- weII, I do not have a recollection. MR. SANDY: ZELDIN: Those convensations just didn't take place with you? 3 MR. 4 MR. SANDY: That 5 MR. ZELDIN: is connect. Aften the hold was lifted, ane you involved at all 6 with the pnocess of obligating funds by Septemben 30th, on is that 7 outside of youn department? MR. SANDY: Involved 8 9 Department of with the pnocess of obligation so the Defense takes the lead on the actual implementation of obligation. 10 the pnogram in tenms of 11 of the appontionments. 72 the nestriction, which enabled DOD to MR. 13 done 0un nole was pnincipally in tenms the appontionment on Septemben 12th nemoved So pnoceed with obligations. ZELDIN: And the funds had to be obligated by Septemben 30th, 74 but the hold was lifted almost 3 weeks befonehand in onden to obligate 15 by September 30th. is 16 MR. SANDY: That L7 MR. CASTOR: Oun houn 18 we'II tunn it back to connect. is complete. It actually, MR. SWALWELL: So, 20 IRecess. ] 21 MR. SWALWELL: Back on netunn at and we will L2:25. the necord. It is 45-minute block with majonity, Mn. Mitchel1. BY MR. MITCHELL: 23 a 24 25 exciting houn, you. 19 22 was an with We're going negand to coven much of the same ground as Mn. Castor to the time peniod. UNCLASSIFIED 85 UNCLASSIFIED A a 1 2 YeS. But I am going to tny to ask some foLlowup questions. 5o 4 little bit nepetitive, but we ane going to tny to see if we can get a little bit mone infonmation about 5 some 3 I do apologize that it might of these key events. So my undenstanding 6 sound a is that mid-lune you leann of these questions the Pnesident about Uknaine secunity assistance thnough an email 7 fnom 8 that Mn. Duffey sent to DOD. Is that 9 10 11 L2 13 L4 15 16 t7 connect? A That's cornect. a And you and youn staff gathen infonmation in Mn. Duffey, and you pnovide it to him. A That is connect. nesponse to a And then you go on leave? A Connect. a At the beginning of July thnough JuIy 17th? A I netunned on the 18th, yes to the office. a And then, on JuIy 18th and 19th, you have sevenal 18 conversations with Mr. Duffey neganding specifically Uknaine secunity 19 assistance. Is that night? 20 2L A That is connect. a Okay. And you have this one convensation whene you suggest 22 that you have concenns about the Impoundment Contnol Act 23 wanted 24 Counsel's 25 to confen with legal counsel and Office. Is that A That is conrect. connect? UNCLASSIFIED and that you specifically OMB Genenal 86 UNCLASSIFIED Did you also consult with OMB's Budget Review Division about a 7 of your concenns about any 2 any 3 Contnol Act of youn concenns about the Impoundment 5 at the end of July? A Yes. My staff was in contact with the Budget Review Division the week of July 22nd. 5 a Okay. And what was the natune of those convensations with 4 7 the Budget A It 8 9 Review Division? was similan to the convensations with Office of Genenal Counsel. 7L a I don't want to know anything about your convensation with the Office of Genenal Counsel, but I do want to hean evenything you 12 have 10 13 to say about the communications with OMB's Budget Review Division? A Okay. We1I, and I appneciate youn nespecting of 1.4 attorney-client pnivilege. Let 15 crafting a footnote. 16 L7 18 19 20 27 a We1I, me focus in tenms of questions about let me intennupt you. Were these convensations solely to do with crafting the footnote? A Yes, they wene. a Okay. And, again, can you explain what the punpose of the footnote A was? So the punpose of the footnote was to pneclude obligation 22 fon a limited peniod of time but enable planning and casewonk to 23 continue. 24 the Depantment of Defense that this would not impinge upon thein 25 to fully obligate by the end of the year And the footnote explicitly neferenced the concunnence of UNCLASSIFIED ability 87 UNCLASSIFIED a Okay. And the effect of the appontionment, 1 2 apportionment is to allow, in this 3 the contnact, connect? A You mean a nonmal appontionment? a Connect. A Okay, without this type of -a Connect. A Connect. Nonmally appontionments 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 72 13 a A a holds that came after a ? to my necollection. Not And you've been dealing with appontionments fon how long in youn caneen? A At this level since -- we1l, since I 19 tenms of a A 21 22 23 chief 24 my 25 Have you even wonked on any congnessional notification t7 20 enable depantments and to obligate thein funding. a Okay. When you finst leanned of this hold in mid-JuIy, pnion to that date, had you even had to deal with adding a footnote to an appontionment to implement a hold of this sont? A I don't necall an example just like this. 15 18 to actually put money on agencies 74 15 case DOD, an appnoved this position in approving appontionments since Decemben 2013. hJhat about Any in any position? position, we1l, also in and as an examinen, t2 yeans a took So my pnion expenience as a branch I also worked on appontionments. So, acnoss noughly 12 yeans of OMB expenience. is it fain to say that this was an unusual event UNCLASSIFIED fon you? 88 UNCLASSIFTED A a 7 2 Yes. A unique event? 5 A I do not necall another event like it. a In mid-June, as we've discussed, thene wene questions coming fnom the White House about the hold -- excuse me -- about the Uknaine 6 secunity assistance, but at that time peniod, you wenen't awane of any 7 ho1d, conrect? 3 4 A 8 9 10 to That is connect. be clean because, again, of this And you asked a question befone, and I'm not speaking for the State I want component assistance. 22 a A11 night. A I do reca11 thene wene questions about oun -- is thene guidance fonthcoming nelated to this. So I do neca11 questions, but I don't -- I know I did not see anything that was definitive guidance until I neturned from leave on the 18th and 19th. a Questions fnom whom? A Questions from staff within NSD to Mike Duffey. a And what did he nesPond? A I don't have any recollection of guidance on a hold until I returned on the 18th. a And when you netunned on the 18th and you leanned definitively thene was a hold in place for Mn. Duffey, you said you 23 expressed concenns about 24 Impoundment Contnol 25 that point to you, on did you see this L7 t2 13 t4 15 16 77 18 79 20 27 the implications of that hold on the Act, but was the fact of the hold coming? UNCLASSIFIED unexpected at 89 UNCLASSIFIED A L Let 2 implementing 3 came to just also clanify youn nemanks. My concenn was about it via an appontionment, that's mind on a 4 me the speciflc concenn that the 19th. But youn concenn was not just a technical it one on how to also with negand to the whether 5 implement an apportionment, but was 6 the funds would be able to be obligated pnion to the close of the fiscal 7 yean? A Yes, it naises those lega1 questions. a Okay. So, again, was the fact of the hold when you came back 8 9 10 fnom vacation was LT sense that this that a complete sunprise to you, on did you have was coming? A WeIl, we'ne well L2 a awane that the Pnesident is not a fan of 13 foneign assistance. So, to the extent that we wene getting questions L4 about a foneign assistance prognam, again, 15 been a fan of foneign assistance in this administnation has not some ways so. 19 a Okay, but the cincumstances of this panticulan hold -A Right. a -- were unique in so fan as this is was aften a congnessional notification. And, thenefone, you needed -- OMB needed to figune out 20 a way 2t issue and 16 77 18 22 23 24 25 to actually implement this hold and deal with the appontionments A a how that might affect the Impoundment Contnol Act. Connect? That is connect. And is it youn undenstanding that the Pnesident also signed the Iaw that appnopniated these funds pneviously, pnion to the A That is conrect. CN? These funds wene appnopniated as pant of UNCLASSIFIED 90 UNCLASSIFIED L 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 the defense appnopniations fon fiscal yean 2OL9. a A a Which was signed by Pnesident Tnump? Yes, enacted legislation. Now, you netunned fnom vacation on July 18th. Ane you aware of a sub PCC that occurned that same day? A Yes, I am. a Did you attend that sub-PCC? A I did not. a Did you get a neadout of that sub-PCC? A Yes. a And what was in that neadout? A The neadout was that two colleagues had attended and that 13 they had shaned the Pnesident's dinection to hold military suppont t4 funding fon Uknaine. 15 76 L7 18 79 20 2L 22 23 24 25 a Now you wene on colleagues fon vacation. Did you help pnepare youn that sub PCC? A I did not. a There was a PCC on JulY 23nd. A Yes. a Ane you -- did you attend that PCC? A I did not. a Did you pnepane anyone fon it? A I was awane of a memben of my staff who was attending. a Did you help prepane that Penson? A No. UNCLASSTFIED 91 UNCLASSIFIED a A a A 1 2 3 4 Did you get a neadout of the Yes, I What was he had simply indicated 6 it 7 and a A 9 quite similan to the pnevious, which that the President, that that othen agencies 8 23nd? the neadout? The readout was it that occurred on July did. 5 from PCC nemained we was that the guidance as we undenstood did not know the neason fon the ho1d, had expnessed concenns. of those concenns? why -- what the nationale And what was youn undenstanding Concenns about undenstanding fon 10 the hold was. Concenns about the implications fon oun assistance and 11 ovenall policy towand Uknaine and concenns about how similar lega1 72 questions vis-a-vis a hold on appnopniated funds. a 13 And duning the same time peniod L4 wene having - - you and youn 15 DOD 16 night staff anound July 23nd is when you were having communications with the comptnollen Ms. McCusken about these veny same issues. Is that ? A Yes. I was having those convensations. a And what sonts of concenns was Ms. McCusken naising? A Similan to those that I had raised, which was, how would we L7 18 19 Act, 20 implement a hold consistent with the Impoundment Contnol 2L one, but also the need fon policy clanity duning that timefname. a 22 23 July 24 And 25 with Ms. McCusken between July 24th, as well as with Office of Genenal Counsel. And you had those communications 22nd and numben the nesult of those communications A That's connect. And was a July 25th appontionment? the communications with UNCLASSIFIED DOD extended 92 UNCLASSIFIED 7 thnough the 25th. exhibit No. 4. 3 IMajonity Exhibit No. 4 4 was manked fon MR. MITCHELL: Handing you 2 MR. MITCHELL: 5 5 7 8 9 10 This is a three-page document I'11 nepresent to it as, if not the entine appontionment, it consists of the finst page is a signatune page and the following two pages ane footnotes. I'11 direct youn attention to the finst page hene -- oh, I'm sonry. I think I may have handed you the wnong one. Let's mank this as No. 5. Let's go off the necond. L2 IDiscussion off the necord.] BY MR. MITCHELL: 13 15 ] you 7L 74 identification. in fnont of you exhibit No. 4, it is dated July 25th on the finst page. Do you see that, sin? a So you have 24 A Yes. a Do you necognize this document? A Absolutely. a And what is it? A This is the appontionment I signed on July 25th -- sonny -- that I appnoved, and so it reflects my signatune. a And that's youn signatune hene on the finst page? A Yes. . I^lho is O And below that it says: Sent by 25 that L6 L7 18 L9 20 21 22 23 ? UNCLASSIFIED 93 UNCLASSIFIED 5 A She is an examinen in my division. a And what's hen job? She is not the bnanch chief? A She is not. Though, I don't necall if she was acting as a bnanch chief. During summen, it is a common time fon people to take Ieave, so it is also the case that sometimes people ane in acting 6 positions. 1 2 3 4 7 8 a talk to Did had about you any concenns that she might have this particulan appontionment in the applicatlon of the hold 13 to the best of your necollection? A No, I don't -- lro, I don't neca1l that. Among the staff wonking on this issue, we had talked about the issues associated with the apportionment thnough the counse of the week. a A11 right. Wene concenns expnessed by youn staff oven the L4 counse 9 10 11 t2 of the week genenally? I think they had the same questions that I 15 A 16 of developing t7 Impoundment Contnol Act. 18 19 20 27 22 23 24 25 a A a So an appontionment had in tenms that would not run into issues with the And these wene caneer staffers with long-time expenience? Yes, they ane. Tunning to footnote 44. to the footnote on page 2 of exhibit No. 4, tunning Do you see that, sin? A Yes. a Is this the footnote that you wene descnibing eanlien in youn testimony today? A Yes, it is. UNCI,ASSIFIED 94 UNCLASSIFIED 4 a Okay. And it reads: Amounts appontioned but not obligated as of the date of this neappontionment fon the Uknaine Secunity Assistance Initiative ane not available fon obligation until August ith, 20L9, to al1ow fon an intenagency pnocess to detenmine the best 5 use L 2 3 of I will 6 7 stop thene, August 5th, 20L9. Where did that date A That date neflected consultations with both Mike Duffey and Elaine McCusker about what was a reasonable timefname fon in of getting clear guidance, 10 intenagency pnocess 11 And, a1so, that date helped infonm the veny next sentence. a 72 13 come fnom? 8 9 such funds. So hopes an numben one. the interagency pnocess is the second pant of that sentence. 16 A Right. a And the intenagency process, is that the JuIy 18th, sub-PCC, the luly 23nd PCC that we wene just discussing, as well as the July t7 26 deputies committee meeting 18 minonity counsel? 1.4 15 a Okay. be But that's what this footnote means by an intenagency process. A a 23 24 25 would an NSC-1ed pnocess. 2L 22 you wene talking about eanlien with A Yes. I think oun undenstanding of that is that it 19 20 that with DOD That is And then connect. the next sentence says, based on OMB's communication on July 25th, 2OL9,OMB undenstands from the Depantment that UNCLASSIFIED 95 UNCLASSIFIED 1 this bnief pause in obligations will not pneclude DOD's timely 2 execution of the 3 sentence. A 4 5 that we final policy dinection. to the We}}, that gets don't nun afoul of the heant Explain what is meant by that of that issue about ensuning Impoundment Contnol Act, which means 7 that you have to allow for the timely execution. And this reflects my convensation with -- convensations plunal with E1aine McCusken that 8 they can confinm that, during this bnief peniod, they would not fonesee 9 any pnoblem 5 fully executing the prognam by the end of the fiscal yean. L2 "fuIIy executing the pnogram" or you say "allow fon timely execution, " what you mean is to allow time fon DOD to put funds unden contnact -- in othen wonds, to obligate those funds -- pnion 13 to the end of the fiscal 10 11 L4 15 a When A a you say yean, which is Septemben 30th So this sentence and this to date of August 5th was based time feedback provided by L7 put funds unden contract, in othen wonds to put 18 funds. Is that night? A WeI1, let DOD me as put how much with, didn't 2L we had stanted these convensations 22 we wene always 23 assessment was thene 24 peniod fonesee any issue DOD requined in and on onder to -- to obligate those it this way, she said that basically 20 25 2@19? That is correct. 16 19 of she I'm going to say 2 weeks because at the beginning of this week. talking about a 2-weektimefname. certainly shouldn't of time. a Okay. And "she" being? UNCLASSIFIED And as I recall, be any issues fon So hen that bnief 96 UNCLASSIFIED 4 A a A a 5 and casewonk 6 I think 1 2 3 Elaine McCusken. The comptnollen fon Deputy comptnollen. So the next sentence says: 8 by that? So I am is youn undenstanding that it is -- it nepnesents a numben of am awane t7 cases t2 example, and 13 components. So that would be the planning t4 mateniel 15 of the actual contnacting pnocess fon example. L7 18 19 20 27 22 23 a planning what is it meant and equipment, fon that multiple militany senvices ane involved in would be envisioned But of diffenent so-called that pertain to diffenent types of assistance it its not an expent on the implementation of USAI, but I 10 16 continue you have mentioned a couple of times during youn testimony planning and casewonk. What A DOD may fon the initiative during this peniod. 7 9 DOD? to in terms of those what sont of pnovide and the casewonk in tenms does not include actually spending those funds on obligating those funds, connect? A That is connect, up to the point of obligation. a Okay. The day aften you signed this appontionment was the deputies committee meeting on July 26th, connect? A a Conrect. And you indicated earlien duning testimony that you helped pnepane Mn. Duffey 24 A Connect. 25 a And you fon that DC? indicated that thene wene UNCLASSIFIED at least six diffenent 97 UNCLASSIFIED that you helped Mn. Duffey pnepane on. The 1 aneas 2 fon the hold, correct? A 3 When cnitical 5 policy guidance. 6 a Okay. But did 8 26th A a 10 A a 13 which we would So these wene questions have an undenstanding of the A a 16 Was would be helpful to be naised neason to get at the meeting. fon the hold on July thene any discussion about the amount of money that Not within You said was OMB. that dunation was another question. Did you know of the hold was on JuIy 26th? No. You said extent what the extent of the hold was also a question. of the hold was on Do you know JuIy 26th? A Within DOD, our undenstanding -- I'm sonny, within DOD 18 19 pnognams, oun undenstanding was 20 perhaps mone 2t a just And was it - - now you that question pentained did not have responsibility fon the apportionments neganding FMF. That 23 That fell 24 night ? A USAI, but to State pnognams. 22 25 it No. what the dunation 15 t7 in being contnibuted by othen countnies on July 26th? 72 L4 the reason ? 9 11 questions OMB was you say "preparer " these wene what we envisioned as six 4 7 finst unden feII unden a diffenent division. the International Affains Division of OMB. Is that Connect. UNCLASSIFIED 98 UNCLASSIFIED a A a t 2 3 4 to FMF 6 Yes. Was it youn undenstanding on July 26th Yes, that is I how a Fon Uknaine? 8 A Fon Uknaine, yes. 9 a Thene was A So these ane 11 would have interpneted militany suppont funding. 7 10 that this hold applied funds as well? A 5 But Mn. Duffey ovensaw that division as we}l, connect? mean also a public affains question. What did that ? just genenal questions that we would flag fon L2 the policy level to say, depending on on once we have policy guidance, 13 people should also 74 policy. think thnough those On 16 17 a You said congnessional 18 19 As fan as I A So we, was also a considenation. a A a A And what was We wene the stnategy? not aware of So was Congness Not to would of what is the stnategy fon updating congnessional stakeholdens. 25 affains again, depending upon what the policy was, 21. 24 know. Could you explain what you mean by that? always ask the question 23 any know, cornect. 20 22 of implementing July 26th, the hold was not public yet, as fan as you a A 15 components one. notified? my knowledge. UNCLASSIFIED 99 UNCLASSIFIED a 1 2 notify thene any discussion that you necall about whethen to Congness? A No, I didn't attend the DC so -a In pnepanation fon the DC? A No, because it was all pnedicated on getting clanity on the 3 4 5 6 hJas policy finst. a WeII, did you get a readout of the July 26th DC? A I got neadout that it was not conclusive. a WeII, not conclusive, but is it youn undenstanding that OMB 7 8 9 the only agency who attended that meeting that was insisting that 10 was LL the hold continue? A a t2 13 74 19 20 2t 22 that was my understanding. the case fon the JuIy 23rd PCC and the July 18th A In those PCCs, yes, OMB was communicating the guidance that we had neceived. a \7 18 And that's sub-PCC as we11, conrect? 15 16 Yes, hold Had all the othen agencies thene wanted the tifting of the ? A That's my undenstanding. a And OMB is not a policymaking entity, connect? A We do weigh in on policy mattens so we ane pant of the intenagency policy pnocess led by 23 a 24 wene neLaying 25 fon Uknaine, connect? NSC. But hene OMB wasn't expnessing its policy views, nathen they the Pnesident's decision to withhold secunity assistance UNCLASSIFIED 100 UNCLASSIFIED A a 1 2 That is connect. And in fact I think you testified at least as of eanly August, 3 Mn. Duffey and you, as well as youn 4 should be A a A a 5 6 7 8 lifted. Is that staff, all connect? Yes, we supponted the continuation And believed that the hold of a USAI pnognam. lifting of the hold? Yes, yes. You indicated there was -- you necaIl an email on August 2nd 10 to Mr. Duffey nelated to, I believe, some guidance on a memo that would -- whose punpose was to be tnansmitted to Acting Dinecton Vought. L7 Do 9 I have is that night? 19 A Fon August 2nd? O Yes. A I necall that that infonmation went to Mike Duffey. I do not necall whethen it was intended to go beyond him. a Okay. What is that infonmation? A It was just an update on the state of play. a And what was the state of play? A WeIl, fon USAI, it was that the funds wene cunnently on hold 20 pending a policy decision on, you know, dinection fnom the President. T2 13 L4 15 16 L7 18 2L 22 23 24 25 a A a A a Was this in the fonm of a memo this No, it was We1I, was No, it wnitten so, yes. it was August 2nd communication? an email on -- not; it And you descnibe in was a some written document. Excuse me. detail the August 7th memo that UNCLASSIF]ED was 101 UNCLASSIFIED L tnansmitted to Vought with centain policy necommendations. 2 policy necommendations in the August 2nd A Not So 5 a A 6 a Did anything happen between 3 4 memo Wene thene as well? that I necall. it simply descnibed the state of play? Connect. July -- weII, you indicated 8 I think you said at the end of JuIy youn duties as appnoven of appontionments was removed fnom you and that was delegated to 9 Mn. 7 10 11 L2 13 that Duffey. Is that night? A That's cornect, effective JuIy 30th. a And you had some convensation with prion to July 30th on in person? A About that? Mn. Duffey by telephone L4 a 15 A I necall his alenting me the day befone on July 29th in t6 77 18 19 20 Yes. penson. a In person. A Yes. a Can you describe that convensation? What did he say to you? A He nelayed to me that thene was going to be a change in the 2t appontionment approval 22 justification that I 23 24 25 delegation. And he nelayed basically the shared earlien in testimony. a Did he tell you -A -- on the explanation, excuse me. a Did he teII you that he petitioned fon this UNCLASSTFIED change, i.e., 102 UNCLASSIFIED t Mr. Duffey petitioned fon this change? 4 let me just answen what I anticipate youn next question to be, which is, when asked about that, he said it was in essence a joint decision neflecting both guidance 5 fnom 2 3 A 7 A a 9 10 to JuIy 29th, to you in And had you -- had Mn. Duffey even expnessed being the appnoven of appontionments? No. Had he even taken an in the pnocess of A I think 11 T2 Pnion an intenest 8 that. the Acting Dinecton and also his support. a 6 No, he did not say intenest genenally in appontionments, neviewing and approving appontionments? he had gotten involved on some issues nelated to apportionments with my countenpants in the Intennational Affains 16 Division. But again, I don't know the specifics thene. a Wene those neLated to FMF fon Ukraine? A They pentained to congnessional notifications, but that's the extent of my knowledge. 77 a Okay. Ane you awane that there was a congnessional 13 1.4 15 18 notification that 19 FMF funds was held up by OMB on or about lune 21st reganding to Uknaine? 24 A I do not have knowledge -a Is it possible that that's the -- what you'ne neferring to with regand to Mn. Duffey's intenest in appontionments on the A He had knowledge of appontionments based upon the congnessional notification. But, again, I'm not -- I was not pant of 25 those convensations. 20 27 22 23 UNCLASSIFIED 103 UNCLASSIFIED 1 a And pnion to the change in delegation of the appnoval pnocess 2 for appontionments negarding 3 from you, a caneer 4 had naised concenns about 5 Mn. Duffey, connect? Pnion 6 7 8 USAI, which took that nesponsibility away official, to Mn. Duffey, a political official, you the hold on Uknaine secunity assistance with to JuIy 29th? A Yes. I had raised concenns about the implementation. a And specifically how to implement it in light of the Impoundment Contnol Act? 11. A That's connect. a The August 7th memo that was tnansmitted to Mn. Vought, you descnibed youn pontion of it, which had this necommendation to nemove 72 the hoId, and that 13 eanlien, L4 parts of this 15 A 9 10 16 L7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 was for sevenal diffenent neasons which you descnibed alI of which wene shaned by Mn. Duffey. Wene there othen memo as well? So thene were also sections dnafted by the Intennational Affains Division and by Office of Legal Counsel. a Okay. I'm not intenested in the Office of Legal Counsel section. A a section Undenstood. What was in the Office of Intennational Affains Division ? A I do not necall the specifics. a Aften this memo was tnansmitted to Mr. Vought, I believe you 24 indicated that you -- weI1, what did you hean happened aften this 25 was tnansmitted to Mn. Vought? UNCLASSTFIED memo L04 UNCLASSIFIED A 1 We didn't 2 was a desine on 3 guidance. a 4 5 hean any specific neadout other than that there the pant of pnincipals to find an occasion to neceive And when you say the pnincipals to neceive guidance, you mean guidance fnom the Pnesident, connect? A a 6 7 That is connect. Did you even have any conversations with anyone othen than 8 Mr. Duffey about the fact that this appontionment appnoval authority 9 was being taken away fnom you? A a A 10 11 L2 13 14 I Centainly with my staff. And what was thein reaction? They wene sunpnised, and they wene concenned fon the mentioned befone. a Did you talk to anyone at Mr. Duffey's leve1 or above about 16 this issue, othen than Mn. Duffey? A Not that I necall. It was certainly talked to t7 deputy associate dinectons about this. 15 18 neasons a In youn career at OMB on othenwise, are you aware 19 political 20 appontionments as happened here appointee being given the responsibility to of othen any othen authonize with Mn. Duffey? I I just short answen is, 22 for the necond that because the appontionment authonity 23 the Acting Dinecton, the Acting Dinecton always has netained that 24 authonity 21 25 A a The to exencise it if Ane you aware no, am not awane. would note comes thnough he so chooses. of any situations in which the Acting Dinector UNCLASSIFIED 105 UNCLASSIFIED t 2 3 has exencised an authonity? A I undenstand that thene was one case in anothen division in which he signed an appontionment. 8 a Do you know the cincumstances related to that? A I'm not familian with the details. A Do you know genenally what it was about? A I think it pentained to a deficiency appontionment, but again that's a veny technical matten in anothen division that I do not have 9 expentise on. 4 5 6 7 MR. GOLDMAN: Mn. Jondan, do you mind 10 11 question to folIow up? t2 MR. SWALWELL: You have 10 mone minutes 13 MR. GOLDMAN: But L4 MR. SWALWELL: Okay. 15 MS. VAN GELDER: 16 MR. SWALWELL: Please, save us. a 20 expnessed 2L continuing the hold? 24 25 I in that August 7th have neceived, 23 houn. Mr. Sandy, without getting into legal advice that you 19 22 technically one counsel pen BY MR. GOLDMAN: 17 18 if I ask a quick memo, wene you awane may of any concenns to Mn. Vought about the legality of doing this -- sonny, of A I think the best way to chanactenize this is that we said if thene was a desine to continue the hold, that the Office of Legal Counsel would have to opine on any such options. a And ane you awane of whethen the UNCLASSIFTED Office of Lega1 Counsel even 106 UNCLASSIFIED L did opine on this topic? 9 A I'm awane that they contributed to this memo. a The Office of Legal Counsel, the Depantment of lustice contributed to - A I'm sorny, sorny. a You'ne talking about the Office of Legal Counsel at OMB? A Yeah. a I'm sonny. A I'm sorny. I used the wnong term. It is Office of Genenal 10 Counsel, my apologies. Office of Genenal Counsel would have to take 7L the lead on those questions. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 a As of August 7th? A Sonny as -- they contnibuted to that memo. a I night. I guess f'm -- they would have to opine on what, L2 13 14 15 the continuation of the 77 A a 18 do pentaining 19 A 16 They -- it So what So, if the policy Counsel would have 25 August 7th? guidance on the Pnesidential guidance have, fon example, an indefinite hold, then the Qffice 2L 24 to the dunation. to the dunation aften to 23 would pentain exactly would the Office of General Counsel need to 20 22 hold? of was Legal to opine on any options to implement that. a What options would thene be, to youn knowledge? A a That is a legal question. But you were not awane -- you did not leann at that time that thene wene othen options? UNCLASSIFIED 707 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 -- is that what he leanned was thnough the memo what the options ane, so to say what he leanned would be divulging attonney-client infonmation. I think it is sufficient to say that -MS. VAN GELDER: BY MR. GOLDMAN: 4 a WeII, Iet 5 6 7 8 9 10 the Budget 13 t4 a A11 appontionments 18 19 20 2t 24 25 Division about the ongoing legality of this hold? night. I want to just tny to whiz thnough -- I'm going ask 23 77 Did you hean any concenns fnom to sont of whiz thnough -- that same footnote that was in the July 25th call -- appontionment, also it was included on the August 6th one. Is that night? to 22 16 this: convensations about that. A a A a A a A a 15 ask you A I did not. We consulted wlth the Budget Review Division on the finst footnote so just to set the recond stnaight. In tenms of subsequent appontionments, I do not necall -- I do not necall specific 11 t2 Review me A a Connect, with a diffenent date. Obviously, with a diffenent date. Connect. And that August 6th one was signed by Mn. Duffey? That is connect. Not you? Connect. Theneaften, you mentioned thene wene a number of different ? Connect. Was that same footnote -- sonny. Okay, so -- all right, UNCLASSTFIED 108 UNCLASSIFIED L to this in a second. I want to go back befone we go thnough this; the we'11 get 2 3 pnocess you said is appontionment an administnative pnocess? 5 A Largely, yes. a And one of the concerns that you naised to Mn. Duffey when he told you that he was taking oven the approval of that is that, if 7 he rea1ly wanted to leann mone about 8 betten ways 4 5 A 10 the accounts. 11 a 13 t4 15 16 the process, thene wene othen of doing that? 9 L2 this Oh, no, So it was neaIly mone if he wanted to leann mone about his explanation was that he wanted to leann mone about accounts? A a A a The accounts and the The accounts and the pnognams. Pnognams. Connect. And what was youn reaction to -- did you think that by taking L7 over the appnoval of the appontionments that he would be able to Ieann 18 mone about L9 20 2L 22 23 24 25 the accounts and the pnognams in the most efficient way? A It would not be my choice, but a Why not? A WeI1, the associate dinecton operates at a veny -- at a high level with a veny bnoad punview. So I can think of othen ways -- other matenials that I pensonally would find mone infonmative. If this was his pnefenence, that was his pnerogative. I think we also thought, well, we'1I wait and see. If he finds this useful, then okay. And UNCLASSIFIED 109 UNCLASSIFIED 1 if 2 3 ability to delegate it. a What -- you said that it takes a fair amount of time. he doesn't, then he had the that night? A Panticulanly in centain times of yean, yes. a So, centainly, if you wanted to leann mone about the 4 5 6 pnognams, thene would be othen ways 7 and 8 9 10 11 L2 that would be much mone A Again, it would not be mY choice. a It would not be youn choice because thene ane othen mone efficient A a ways of doing it? Fon me, yes. so that explanation of his neally did not make sense to L4 15 diffenent intenests. So, again, I took him at his I a t7 MR. SWALWELL: Mn. Sandy, would No, objectives may have been 20 MR. SWALWELL: Why he wanted wond. it be fain to say that his to put himself in this role. MR. SANDY: To the extent that he was looking to learn about accounts, that would not be my focus 23 MR. SWALIdELL: Mn. Goldman. 24 MR. MITCHELL: We have 1 25 and objectives with nespect to? MR. SANDY: His 22 of leanning diffenent than youn objectives? 19 2L ways you understood You took him at 16 18 efficient effective than doing that in youn estimation. Is that night? at that time. Is that night? A Let me just say people have diffenent 13 Is of the appontionment pnocess. minute. I 'm going to ask one question. MR. SANDY: I'm sonny. Could I come back to this just fon the UNCLASSIFIED 110 UNCLASSIFIED 1 recond So 2 3 ? I am awane within the Budget I just want Review Division who to -- BY MR. GOLDMAN: What a A 5 6 What genenal concenns? Concenns about questions vis-a-vis the Impoundment Contnol Act and the withholding of funds. a 8 9 one member expnessed some genenal concenns so 4 7 of the Meaning concenns that withholding the funds would violate Impoundment Contnol Act? 10 A LI MR. SWALWELL: TiME 72 MR. SANDY: 13 the point that neithen L4 attonneys, and we're just veny nespectful of the role of attorneys in 15 terms Yes, that was her opinion. It -- my 1et me just division non say "may." I just the Budget Review want make Division True, and we can discuss with youn attorney L7 of the limits hene. But, obviously, the whethen on not this 18 by 19 And 20 as we can, even though Congness does not necognize 21 undenstand 22 punsuing this hold. 23 So, with 24 MR. SWALWELL: Mn. Caston. 25 to ane of providing 1egaI advice so -MR. GOLDMAN: 16 may OMB to be some was deemed IegaIIy deficient is of counse of concern to the committees. while we ane tnying to nespect attonney-client pnivilege as much the answens it, we do need to to intennal concerns about the legality of that, I yield to the minonity. MR. CASTOR: Mr. Andenson UNCLASSIFIED LlL UNCLASSIFIED BY MR. ANDERSON: 1 a 2 Mn. Sandy, I am Doug Andenson I've undenstood youn testimony 3 Committee. Let me make sune 4 connectly. You testified that the 5 tnansfenned to 6 Uknaine specific neason fon today appontionment appnoval authority Mn. Duffey on JuIy 30th and that ane not that tnansfen. Is that of a awane connect? A Connect. I was not awane of that. a Is it tnue that, at the beginning of August, OMB placed a 7 8 9 with the Foneign Affains bnoad hold on unobligated U.S. foneign assistance, that the 10 administration was contemplating compiling a nescissions package at 11 that time? L2 A Sin, that is 13 pnobably been shaned. my undenstanding, and I think matenials have t4 I just want to be quick to note because that's not my anea, my anea of nesponsibility, I don't feel comfontable 15 speaking a 16 to the specifics. Understood. And I'm glad fact, L7 awaneness. In 18 August 5th on an August 3nd 19 again, was not Uknaine 20 that to deal with youn genenal The Washington Post neponted, OMB letten detailing that specific. Ane you awane I believe, anound bnoaden hold of a decision that, around timefname? 23 A I am awane of that memo being signed. a And I'm glad to submit it on pnovide copies if people want to see, although I can handly nead the small type on I'm glad to nead 24 into the necond. 2t 22 25 MR. MITCHELL: We would like a co?y, please. UNCLASSIFIED LL2 UNCLASSIF]ED This is L numben 6. 2 IMinonity Exhibit No. 3 was marked BY MR. 4 a 5 And 6 fon identification.] ARMSTRONG: I just want to nead the pontion beneath the finst bneak to be pninted in, that, 6 that appanently 7 acconding to 8 a vaniety of assistance: intennational onganizations; peacekeeping 9 openations and an adventisement was supposed this, it said the OMB letten listed eight aneas that coven 11 activities; intennational nancotics control and law enfoncementl development aid; assistance fon Eunope, Eunasia and Centnal Asia; economic suppont funding; foneign military financing t2 pnognams; and 10 global health pnognams. So, in so far as you'ne awane of 13 this discussion of a nescissions 14 package, wene you awane that those discussions were going on and nelated 15 holds 16 L7 ? A I was aware that my countenparts in the Intennational Affains Division were involved in those discussions. 20 a And wene the discussions that wene ongoing, wene they country specific? In othen wonds, this is bnoaden than Uknaine; this is a global appnoach neflecting, as I think you said pneviously, the 2t skepticism of the administnation towands foneign assistance genenally? 18 19 22 23 24 25 A My undenstanding knowledgeable about a okay. is it was bnoaden, but again I am not the details. Ane you awane of whethen this was the finst bnoad-based foneign assistance nescissions package by UNCLASSIFIED attempted this 113 UNCLASSIFIED L administnation? 2 August 3 4 5 5 7 Ane you awane of an effont in I think appnoximately of last yean also? A a Again, A Not I have awaneness of that effont. that nescissions package attempt consummated on successful? At that point in time, did they submit -- did they finalize and submit a nescisslons package? And do you know, was to my knowledge. UNCLASS]FIED 1.74 UNCLASSIFIED 1 [1:15 p.m.] 2 MR. ANDERSON: And so this was the second time anound. And that they ane contemplating this gIobal 3 noughly the same timeframe 4 nescissions package based on holds on these multiple foneign assistance 5 accounts was noughly the same timefname 5 fon appnoving appontionments was tnansfenned 7 MR. SANDY: Yes, noughly 8 MR. ANDERSON: 9 MR. MEADOWS: Mn. Sandy, 10 pnevious 45 minutes, you know, L7 make some 72 alneady 13 t4 15 16 Okay. the to Mr. Duffey? same timefname. Thank you. 1et me just I come back, because see my colleagues opposite in tnying to testified to was just a tnansition between you and Mr. Duffey in terms of who appnoves the appontionment. I believe I heand this connect, and I want to make sune it is connect. The Acting Directon of OMB has the ability to appnove apportionments now. Is that correct? MR. SANDY: Yes, sin. 18 MR. MEADOWS: Has appnove appontionments the Directon of OMB always had the ability to ? 22 is my undenstanding, yes. MR. MEADOI^JS: And that's my undenstanding too. And I guess hene's -- you know, because they'ne tnying to make this 23 tnansition, 24 opine on this 20 2L 25 the kind of nefanious punpose oven the fact that what you've L7 t9 that the decisional authonity MR. SANDY: That and they've asked you about 10 diffenent ways fon you to ability to appnove apportionments being removed from you and going to Mr. Duffey, as to suggest that thene is some kind of UNCLASSIFIED 115 UNCLASSIFIED 1 connection. But, indeed, 2 if to ovennule you in tenms of that has been thene in the pnocess the someone wanted 3 appnoving an appontionment, 4 entine time you've been at 5 MR. SANDY: Yes. 6 MR. MEADOWS: And so, OMB, has when we it not? stant to look at 7 f 8 out 9 to know who Mank Sandy 10 to me 11 and t2 questions and my questions equally without a pantisan tinge, and I want 13 to thank want to thank you fon youn service. who this fnom Mank Sandy OMB was a stnikes. I've I You know, I this -- Mn. Sandy, was tnying to figure -- you know, unfontunately, evenybody is going is pnetty soon. But, you know, what came back dedicated, caneen public senvant that called bal1s seen that hene today, tnying to answer their you fon that. also wanted to go a little 20 bit funthen, though, into one anea. Majonity counsel indicated that OMB typically doesn't have any nesponsibility in the policy side of things. You disagnee with that, fnom youn testimony. Is that connect? MR. SANDY: We ane centainly involved in the policy process, numben one. We ane mindful that we ane not an implementing agency, but we do have a nesponsibility, as pant of the Executive Office of 2L the Pnesident, to ensune that executive bnanch actions ane consistent 22 with the Pnesident's direction. L4 15 16 77 18 19 MR. MEADOWS: 23 24 this 25 Management and anea that fn fact, it's been characterized most Americans have never heand Budget, indeed is one to me that OMB and of, the Office of of the most powenful gnoups in UNCLASSIFIED 116 UNCLASSIFIED L the executive bnanch because they indeed contnol the punse stnings over 2 and oven again on almost evenything 3 another. the entine executive finally, let me -MR. SANDY: I'm sonry, sir. lust a point of clanification: 7 oven then, the depantments and agencies. Obviously not -MR. MEADOI^JS: Right 9 MR. SANDY: 10 LI oversight oven basically bnanch. MR. MEADOWS: And 6 8 one way on with that? MR. SANDY: So, as an agency, we do have 4 5 Would you agnee that gets spent in -- . oun colleagues within the Executive Office of the President. L2 MR. MEADOWS: Right. 73 You'Ve neven acted L4 of the decisions that 15 you ane in a nefanious punpose as it nelates to the subject of this panticulan inquiry, have ? 16 MR. SANDY: No, sin. 17 MR. MEADOWS: You've always acted 18 MR. SANDY: Yes, sin. 19 MR. MEADOI^JS: 20 MR. SANDY: 2T MR. MEADOWS: Ane you awane I as a pnofessional? Again, another softball question. appneciate that. of anyone acting in a nefarious 22 punpose? You know, we've asked these questions today, and 23 that's 24 OMB 25 any whene evenybody is tnying to -- ane you awane acting in a nefanious way? MR. SANDY: No, sin. UNCLASSIFIED of I think anyone within t77 UNCLASSIFIED MR. MEADOWS: A11 1 night. I'II yield back. BY MR. CASTOR: 2 this decision to take contnol of the by Mr. Duffey, you're not awane of any political a Just to 3 be clean, 4 appontionments 5 punpose, you're not awane 6 which was of any neason other than the stated neason, that he wanted to leann mone about how to do this? 7 A I, 8 a Okay. And you have no neason to think that thene's a 9 again, take him at his wond, in terms of his explanation. diffenent neason, connect? 11 A I do not have a neason, no. a Okay. t2 And 10 following up on Mn. Meadows's question, the funthen 13 apportionments that were implemented aften Mn. Duffey took oven that L4 nesponsibility, to the extent you have finsthand information 15 them, do you have any concerns? 0n wene they implemented in the 16 way t7 18 L9 20 21 that the one that you signed about same was? A So my staff and I did have concerns. a Okay. And what -A YeS. a -- were those concenns? A So the concenns wene basically that the longen you go into 22 the fiscal yean with a hold on obligations, the gneaten nisk that 23 cneate 24 obligated 25 in tenms of the ability to ensure that all the funds can be in a pnopen fashion befone the end of the fiscal a Okay. year. That decision was being made oven Mn. Duffey's UNCLASSIFIED you 118 UNCLASSIFIED 7 nesponsibility 1eve1, night? That was coming fnom A I'm sonny. Which decision? a The decision fon the appontionment. A Oh. I do not know who was pnoviding -- 2 3 4 his supenions. we neceived fnom 5 Mike Duffey each time the nequest fon the specific timefnames fon the 6 appontionments. a A 7 8 Okay. He did not pnovide the explicit explanation of 9 timefnames wene coming fnom. 10 a Okay. Was it youn undenstanding that they whene the wene coming fnom 11 Mn. Duffey personally on coming fnom Mn. Blain on some othen highen t2 a 13 74 15 16 77 18 19 20 2L 22 23 ut honity A ? So oun pnesumption was it was infonmed by pnojections of when final clanity on the ovenall policy. a Okay. But the initial implementation of a hold came fnom we might get highen than Mn. Duffey's authonity. A You mean the initial dinection? a Yeah. A It came fnom the Pnesident, as it was communicated to us. a Okay. So it wasn't a Mn. Duffey decision? A Oh, on the hold? No. a Okay. And the subsequent holds. A Again, oun undenstanding was those all reflected the 24 dinection of the Pnesident, which, oun pnesumption was, had not 25 because we wenen't lifting the ho1d. UNCLASSIFIED changed 119 UNCLASSIFIED t a 2 MR. CASTOR: Yie1d back. 3 MR. SWALWELL: Mn. Sandy, whethen on okay. not you have any knowledge 4 of nefanious activities at OMB, you ane awane that both Mn. Duffey 5 Mn. Vought were asked 6 night to come in and have nefused I'm 8 MR. SWALWELL: Mn. Meadows, my awane colleague, nefenenced that pnion youn appeanance today he neached out that we have not to OMB about who you with 10 can assune you 11 I t2 beginning, Bf,y nepnisals fon youn testimony hene today. do want you to also know had any convensations I'm going to yield, actualIy, to Mn. Goldman. t4 MR. GOLDMAN: lust to folIow 15 was asking you about, whateven 16 why youn appnoval oven 77 political 18 at 20 27 OMB am on what Mn. Meadows pnocess was changed to the I correct that neven in youn careen occunned? I am going to tunn it oven to Mn. Mitchell to thnough some of the -- oh, Mn. Heck has a followup. MR. GOLDMAN: MR. HECK: Thank you. 23 I just 25 litt1e bit That's cornect. 22 24 up a the apportionment that pnecise situation MR. SANDY: OMB, but the neason that you were provided fon appointee, Mp. Duffey, has ane. I that we wiII not tolenate, as I said at the 13 19 so. Is that of that. MR. SANDY: to do ? 7 9 to and go to make sune, Mp. Sandy, that Mn. Goldman's asking of that question is what you undenstood it to mean. I don't think he meant in youn caneen at OMB have you even seen on expenienced eithen want UNCLASSIFIED 720 UNCLASSIFIED L National Secunity on Intennational Affains having their appontionment 2 authonity removed, but have you even seen any division's appontionment 3 authonity even nemoved by a political appointee. to 4 MR. SANDY: Not 5 MR. HECK: Thank you. 6 MR. SWALWELL: Mn. MitChcll. 7 BY MR. MITCHELL: 8 9 10 11 12 13 a intenagency meeting Okay. a meeting So you don't necall getting a neadout fnom that say you didn't pnepane anybody -- Right. 18 a -- fon that A Right. 19 a meeting eithen? Okay. 20 IMajonity Exhibit No. 5 2t was manked fon identification.] BY MR. MITCHELL: 22 25 awane ? A 24 ask of -- on sub-PCC. Ane you awane of that intenagency meeting? A Actua1ly, I do not have a necollection of that. 16 23 that I did not you any questions about, which was a July 3Lst PCC. Ane you 15 T7 final There was one A I do not. a And fain to 74 my knowledge. a A11 night. Back to appontionments. August 6th appontionment. I think you have copies alneady. UNCLASSIFIED So exhibit No. 5 is the tzL UNCI,ASSIFIED MR. CASTOR: 1 Just need one mone fon the court neponten. BY MR. MITCHELL: 2 7 this is, again, a thnee-page document. The finst page is a signatune page. The next two pages ane footnotes. It's dated August 6th, and it's signed by Michael Duffey. Is that cornect? A Yes. a And this is the finst one that was signed by Mn. Duffey. Is 8 that 3 4 5 6 a night? A That's connect. a A11 right. And beIow, it 9 10 11 So is ." says "Sent By: Who ? t2 A 13 a Okay. And this appontionment, She is a bnanch chief within my division. on the second page, footnote t4 44 has a veny similan footnote to the one that 15 the July 25th appontionment. Is that right? I nead you eanlien on 19 A Yes. Similan. a It's almost identical except the dates ane slightly diffenent. In the finst sentence it says August t2th, 2019, and then in the second sentence it nefenences an OMB communication with DOD on 20 August 6th 16 t7 18 2L 22 23 24 25 of 2019. Do you see that? A Yes. a Okay. What do you know about OMB's communication with DOD on on about August A 6th, 2OL9? The communications neganding subsequent apportionments wene almost exclusively with Mike Duffey. UNCLASSIFIED L22 UNCLASSIFIED a 1 So you were not involved in any communications with 2 negarding appontionments aften Juty 30th when 3 away fnom you? this authonity DOD was taken 7 A Connect. I was copied on emails that pentained to apportionments, but I was not involved in the pnocess fon selecting the dates, nor Sor in the finst apportionment, fon example, when it nefenences OMB's communication with DOD on July 25th, that was my 8 communication. 4 5 6 a OkaY. A This communication would not have been mine with DOD on 9 10 LT August 6th. a Okay. Wene you copied on the August 6th communication? A Not that I necaIl. a So you wene completely out of the loop on this communication 72 13 74 15 with A Again, I have no recollection of being looped in. a But, fnom OMB's side, it's youn undenstanding that it 16 L7 18 would've been Mn. Duffey? A Yes. a And fnom DOD's side, would that be Ms. McCusken? A I pnesume. Because I wasn't included in this, I can't 19 20 21 22 25 say that fon centain. a 23 24 DOD? to But based on past pnactice, she would be the natunal person this communication? A She -- on the communications be on on which UNCLASSIFIED I was copied, she was 723 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 the pnimany contact within a DOD Comptnollen. And on those communications in which you wene copied, you 3 said they wene about appontionments. What with nespect to 4 apportionments did those communications discuss? 5 A You mean throughout the month of August? t4 a Yeah. WeI}, let's stant at the beginning of August. A Okay. a On on anound the date of this particulan appontionment. A I don't necall any communications on on anound this one. a A11 night. WeII, we'Il step thnough them then. A Okay. a And the finst sentence also says August 12th, 2OL9. You wene not involved in setting that date either then? A No. In the subsequent appontionments, the dates came fnom 15 Mike Duffey. 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 16 t7 O A How do you know that? Because we -- OMB and specifically my staff -- would genenate 18 these appontionments fon his signatune. So he would provide the 19 dinection on the peniods of the ho1ds. 24 a Whene did he get those dates? A I do not know. a Did you even talk to Mn. Duffey about those dates? A Not explicitly. Oun undenstanding was that thene wene ongoing effonts to get policy clanity. And so oun pnesumption was that 25 each peniod reftected anothen shont peniod 20 21 22 23 UNCLASSTFIED of time in which we hoped 724 UNCLASSIFIED I to have clanity. 2 [Majonity Exhibit No. 7 3 was manked 4 BY MR. MITCHELL: 5 a I'm handing you exhibit 6 7 8 9 10 appontionment also signed by Mr. 44. fon identification.l No. 7. this is And Duffey. It's also thnee pages. Page is almost identical to the prion two except the dates ane diffenent. Is that night? A Actually, this footnote is, I believe, identical to the 2 has the footnote This footnote, again, pnevious exhibit you gave me. it's 11 a Okay. L2 MS. VAN GELDER: You might've given him So and the the wnong copy. BY MR. MITCHELL: 13 a I think it's actually L4 15 an August 15th a typographical ennon, penhaps, in the footnote itself? 27 A No, actua11y, it's not. a Okay. Can you explain to us what's going on? A Sune. So keep in mind that USAI is just one piece of a much Iangen account. Thene was, I believe, on this occasion, a need fon us to do a neapportionment that pentained to something totally unnelated to USAI. So I think this just was netained. And the key 22 distinction in this appontionment was fon anothen 16 t7 18 19 20 pnognam funded out 24 of openations and maintenance Defense-wide. a Right. But this panticulan appontionment is 25 15th, 23 connect? UNCLASSIFIED dated August 125 UNCLASSIFTED A 1 Yes, it is. 3 a And the footnote allows fon obligation until August 12th. So isn't thene a period of time between the 12th and the 1.5th for which 4 there was no footnote actually implementing the hold? 2 A That is connect. a Okay. So this footnote 5 6 7 A That's connect. a A11 night. A Yep. a Wene you involved in this 9 10 7t 13 t4 15 to have a date aften August 15th to implement the hold. 8 T2 had not been updated panticulan appontionment in way? A I was not. I'm awane that it was for an intennal reprognamming. a Okay. But wene you involved in any discussion about this 16 footnote, A4, which has a date that's pnion to the date of the L7 appontionment 18 L9 20 any itself? A No. I anticipate that was just a leftoven fnom the pnevious appontionment. a A A typognaphical ennon? 22 it's just that the appontionment no longen would've constnained anything, and it was pnobably just left in. Because the 23 point of this appontionment wasn't to update that footnote. 2t 24 25 a No, So, in fact, fon this peniod that we're Iooking August 15th, thene was no hotd. UNCLASSIFIED at hene on 126 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A That's connect. 2 a Okay. A a Right. 3 4 So, fon at least a shont peniod of time, fnom August 12th 5 through the next appontionment, which 6 August A a A a 7 8 9 10 L1 period 13 t4 Twentieth. 2?th, there actually was no hold A a 16 in place. That is connect. Do you know whethen DOD was Not Do to the hold 15 show you momentanily, obligating funds duning that ? A a 72 I'lL to my knowledge. you know whethen thene was a change fnom No, not So it the in position with regand Pnesident? to my knowledge. was your undenstanding that the hold was sti1l in place t7 during this August-12th-thnough-August-20th time period, despite the 18 fact that the footnote didn't neflect that. A 19 20 27 was So my undenstanding was that the direction it a Okay. Thank you. [Majonity Exhibit No. 23 was manked for 25 but not an explicit part of the appontionment. 22 24 nemained 8 identification.l BY MR. MITCHELL: a Okay. I'm going to hand you exhibit 8, which is UNCLASSIFIED going to L27 UNCLASSIFIED t be a senies 2 It's 3 5th, 6th, and 10th. going of to appontionments fnom August 20th thnough Septemben 10th. be appontionments fon August of these 4 A11 5 Is that right? 6 7 8 9 10 20th, 27th, 31st; Septemben appontionments wene signed by Mn. Duffey as well. A That's connect. a And the finst one, the August 20th one, has a diffenent name, , on the "Sent By. " Who is that? A Sonny. That's , a bnanch chief in my division. 13 a 0kay. Also a caneen employee of A Yes. a How long has she been at OMB? L4 A 0h. 15 a Okay. t6 A11 of these appontionments in exhibit No. 8 contain a footnote, t7 footnote 1"1 t2 18 19 20 A a Oven a OMB? decade. 44. Is that night? Yes. And the language of these footnotes, howeven, ane different than the last thnee that we've looked at. 24 A That's connect. a How ane they diffenent? A They do not include the pneviously included sentence that stated: "Based on OMB's communication with DOD on" -- date "OMB 25 undenstands fnom 2L 22 23 the Depantment that this bnief pause in obligations UNCLASSIFIED L28 UNCLASSIFIED L will not pneclude DOD's timely execution of the final 2 dinection," end quote. that portion of the footnote omitted? DOD stated it could no longer suppont that sentence. 6 a A a A 7 appontionment. 3 4 5 Why was lrlhen 9 did Midd1e a A 8 And DOD did DOD 11. by the end a 13 Control Act? Which naised A a 20th why? might affect thein nisk associated with an ability to fully obligate yean. a potential violation of the Impoundment Which naises concenns, yes. So DOD, at some point pnion to August -- on between August A Yes. a -- took the position that thene might be insufficient 18 for 20 could nesult 2t wene unobligated DOD time to obligate the funds pnior to the end of the fiscal year, which 19 in a violation of the Impoundment Contnol Act if 22 A 23 fuI1y execute. 25 point pnior to the August 6th and August z?th, presumably -- 77 24 it of the fiscal 72 16 explain some They wene concenned about execution ongoing hold and how 15 state that? of August, at 10 t4 policy So DOD thene funds nemaining on the table? expnessed concenns about its potential ability to of these footnotes in exhibit 8, this senies of appontionments, also continue to have the language saying, "DOD may a A11 UNCI,ASSIFIED 729 UNCLASSIFIED 1 continue 2 peniod. " its planning and casewonk fon the Do you know what 3 DOD Initiative duning this was doing? A I'm sorny. When you say do I know what they were doing -a In thein planning and casewonk? A So I am not familiar with the f know thene is a lot of 4 5 6 that goes into this pnogram befone they hit the point 7 pnepanatony wonk 8 of obligation, but I'm not an expent on all those individual steps. a 9 But the DOD was expnessing a concenn that they still would 10 not have sufficient time to conduct all of those steps and put these LT moneys on t2 continue with thein planning and casework? the contnact despite the fact that they 14 A a 15 These footnotes also 13 wene allowed to process. It says That they may not. Okay. talk about an intenagency 16 that the hold is being put in place "to a1low fon an intenagency process L7 to detenmine the best use of such funds." Now, we discussed 18 eanlien that the intenagency pnocess 19 it 20 meetings 21. the time of these appontionments? 22 23 24 25 was occunning that in July of 2Ot9. Ane you awane -- that of any intenagency occunned between August 20th and September 10th, duning A I'm not awane, but I wouldn't necessanily be awane of eveny consultation, obviously, at a high policy level. a But it's youn undenstanding that, at least duning this period that we've just been discussing, the Pnesident had not UNCLASS]FIED time made the 130 UNCLASSIFIED 1 decision to 2 to 3 4 lift the hold. 0p, at least, that had not been communicated you. A a Connect. And then, finalIy, on August 12th -- excuse me. Duning this 5 August-to- beginning-of -Septemben timeframe, August 20th to September 6 10th, did you have any discussions with anyone about this footnote 7 specifically the nemovaL of that sentence that 8 9 10 7L 72 13 A Yes. I we just and descnibed? had a convensation with ].n my division. a And who is that? A She is a bnanch chief. a 0h, the individual who actually sent that finst appontionment that we looked at on August 20th? L7 A That's correct. a Okay. What was that convensation? A We wene awane of the concenn as expnessed by DOD, and we flagged that -- Mike Duffey was also awane of the concenn, but we 18 flagged that as an issue in tenms of the change that would be requined 19 fon the footnote. 14 15 15 20 21. 22 23 24 25 a Okay. What wene hen concenns? A a sonny. It Yes. A trlel1, hen concenn was that the footnote was going to be changing, and we wanted to make sune that -- two things. And maybe this would be a good oppontunity fon me to make a general statement UNCLASSIFIED 131 UNCLASSIFIED 1 about these appontionments. As 2 the hold was extended, we continued to expness concenns about Act. We Mike Duffey, and, on eveny occasion, we 3 the potential implications vis-a-vis the 4 expnessed those concenns 5 advised him to Impoundment Control 6 to speak to the genenal counsel. We take the genenal approach that, as I've mentioned befone, we ane not attonneys in my 7 division, but we wene flagging these concenns fon Mike Duffey as the 8 appontionment appnoval offlcial. a Okay. And you indicated eanlien that, as pant of the neview 9 of 10 pnocess and appnoval pnocess 11 recommendations ane communicated thnough t2 EMAX system? A a 13 t4 appontionments, concenns and the -- I think you said the MAX. MAX system. Wene the 15 well 15 the Genenal Counsel's Office, as youn recommendation concenns that you just descnibed, that Mn. Duffey should as seek an opinion fnom wene those made thnough the MAX system? 18 at least some wene. Because I was no longen in the chain of approval in MAX, I did not see those. But I advised staff, 19 if 20 them. L7 2t 22 23 24 25 A I know they had concenns, that they could use that avenue fon expressing a A And did they? Again, because I wasn't in the chain, I didn't see them, but is that people did, yes. a WeII, you wonked, I think you testified eanlien, night next to youn staff -my undenstanding UNCLASSIFIED 132 UNCLASSIFIED L 2 3 4 5 5 7 8 9 A Yes. a -- geognaphically, connect? A Right. a Wene they on the same ha1I as you? A The same floon. a A a The same floor? Yeah. And you had conversations -- you had an opportunity, centainly, to have convensations with youn staff membens who wene 10 actuatly nesponsible fon pnepaning and neviewing these appontionments. LT Is that night? 13 A Connect. a Okay. And you had nelationships with them, pnesumably, L4 a significant peniod of time, even outside the context of these 15 panticulan apportionments. 72 15 A Yes. t7 a And even if you wene outside of the loop with regand to the is it fain to say that they -- 18 approval authority, 19 assume 20 panticulan appontionments? on is it fain to that they came and talked to you on occasion about 2L A Yes. 22 a Like 23 A Yes. 24 a And 25 A Yes. did fon ? did others? UNCLASSIFIED these 133 UNCLASSIFIED L a 2 MR. SWALWELL: Ms. Holmes Nonton. 3 MS. NORTON: Okay. of the I'd just like to clanify statute, the concerns you expressed because time was running out. 4 because 5 you even given any reason fon those holds or any neason when the holds 6 wene impoundment lifted? 7 MR. SWALWELL: Did you hear 8 MR. SANDY: I answen both of 9 if I The 10 finst believe I the question? heand two questions, so, ma'am, confinm them. was, wene we even given any neason fon the hold? 11 I 72 hold 13 the contnibutions fnom othen countnies fon 74 would say only in Septemben did we neceive -- that the Pnesident's dinection MS. NORTON: That was going 15 one and only reason you gave, 16 Meadows naised t7 18 19 20 to an explanation And that the neflected his concerns about Uknaine. be my next question. That was the that othen countnies I think Mn. this notion, tnied to link it -- that othen countnies may not have given thein own contnibutions to Uknaine, and that was the only neason even glven to you as a neason fon the hold. MR. SANDY: That was the one definitive neason that I necall seeing duning this peniod. very much. 2t MS. NORTON: Thank you 22 MR. SWALWELL: Thank you, Ms. Holmes Nonton. 23 Mn. Mitchell. BY MR. MITCHELL: 24 25 Wene a So you indicated that you had a convensation with UNCLASSIFIED t34 UNCLASSIFIED A t a Was that in the context of this August 20th appontionment? A Yes, it was. a Was it also thnoughout the counse of the month of August that 2 3 4 5 Yes. you wene having these convensations with multiple convensations, stanting at this point, 6 A 7 thnough 8 a with 9 A Yes. 10 a What about with 11 A So the t2 all 13 as weII. t4 lifting of the hold in Septemben. A That's 20 exp]-ne. 23 24 25 Review only hen own concerns but of othen staff? connect. The concenns wene Did DOD vis-a-vis the Impoundment Contnol Act and to fu11y execute the appnopniated funds befone they have any communications with the Budget Division about these concenns? A She may have. I know definitively. a wonk And what wene those concenns? the ability of a fon this would nelay thein concerns So she was expnessing not was expnessing concerns 19 22 who ane nesponsible , and ro I a Okay. 18 2t ? the other individuals a A L7 ) nepont to 15 16 Thene were ? was not a pant ofthat if she lrlhat about any othen membens of youn staff UNCLASSIFIED did, so I can't ] Did they have 135 UNCLASSIFIED 1 any communications with 2 A 3 individual in They veny BRD well DOD about these same issues? may have. And, as I said, I'fi who expnessed similan awane 6 7 A 5 one concenns. a Okay. Wene those expnessed to you? A 0n one occasion that I definitely necaIl, yes. a Okay. And who was that individual at BRD? 4 of 10 teII you? A I think she just it was mone of a -- it was not, Iike, a meeting in my office, as I necaIl. It was a -- we nan into each othen, 11 and she t2 appontionments. 8 9 13 L4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 a a A a A a A a A a What did just made a genenal comment that neflected a concenn about the What was hen concenn about appontionments? Hen concenn was And when was I don't vis-a-vis the this nememben Impoundment convensation with Control Act. ? that precise date. it was in July on August? It was definitely not in July. So it was aften JuIy. Was it August on Septemben? I think it was Septemben. Okay. So it was duning this time peniod whene the footnote did not include this language fnom DOD. Is that night? A That's conrect. a Did you talk about the change in this footnote with Do you recalL whether ) UNCLASSIFIED 136 UNCLASSIFIED L 2 3 4 A No. I talked about it with my own staff. a Do you recall even hearing any concenns fnom OMB Legal about the footnote post-August-20th? A Dinectly fnom OMB Lega1. As I mentioned, our advice to Mike 5 Duffey was to consult with the Office of the Genenal Counsel on eveny 6 single footnote. 7 direct communication with the Genenal Counsel's Office at 8 topics. And I am wetl awane that the genenal counsel was in DOD on these 7t a How ane you awane of that? A Because I was copied on emails. I cannot know if I was copied on -- I certainly wasn't included in telephone convensations, but I t2 was copied on emails. 9 10 18 a In August as well? A I necall emails fnom late August and eanly Septemben. a okay. And what was the topic of discussion in those emails? MS. VAN GELDER: I'm not going to -- it's between counsel. He's awane of OMB counsel and DOD counsel. And so I think you can ask, as a nesult of those, did anything change, but I am not having him answer 19 those questions. 13 L4 15 16 77 BY MR. MITCHELL: 20 2L a As a nesult and DOD, 23 appontionments 24 nelated to A communications between counsels fnom did anything change with 22 25 of the to the pnocessing of with negard to the footnote on with anything else this panticulan Pant negand OMB of the issue of Uknaine secunity assistance? communications between UNCLASSIFIED OMB and DOD focused on 137 UNCLASSIFIED 1 maximizing the extent to 2 obligations in of obligating. 3 focus. In othen wonds, how do you make the most out of the penmission 4 to continue planning and casewonk so that you ane pnepaned to 5 obligations as soon as the nestriction 6 pant of the communication. advance which DOD And those communications, as 7 I'm So of those that oun general counsel was know, 9 I'm awane 10 DOD genenal counsel. is lifted. communications with So, as I understand a Okay. I think that was part of the well as the awane 8 11 could lay the gnoundwonk fon So that make was a big bnoaden concenns DOD the -- you Comptnollen. Again, in dinect communication with it in layman's tenms, one of the could be doing during this time peniod in L2 issues was what 13 the communications wene being had between counsel in spite of the hold. A a t4 15 DOD Right. Okay. 16 IDiscussion t7 a 18 the A off the recond.] To youn knowledge, mannen 19 in 2t To my 22 necommendation. 24 25 OMB recollection, we Office bless advised him to seek genenal counsel guidance. he confinmed So youn undenstanding that he did that, consistent with is that Mn. Duffey -- that Mr. Duffey seek OGC guidance, A Genenal Counsel's With eveny single apportionment that we sent fonward to Mike Duffey, at his nequest, a did which these appontionments were issued? 20 23 which conrect? Connect. UNCLASSTFIED you oun necommended 138 UNCLASSIFIED that he, in fact, did consult with 7 a 2 OGC, connect? 3 A Connect. a A But you don't know whethen he followed OGC's advice on not. 4 5 6 And he confinmed fon you Let me put it this way. I'm not aware of any -- it's fon -- 7 IDiscussion off the necond. ] 8 MR. SANDY: Okay. 9 My undenstanding fnom Mn. Duffey was had genenal counsel suppont that he with these apportionments. BY MR. MITCHELL: 10 11 a L2 Now, OkaY. the hold was lifted 13 noughly Septemben L1th, and the 14 Is on Septemben first -- it's been neponted appontionment was Septemben 12th? A Connect. a -- that cornect? A Yes. 15 16 17 18 IMajonity Exhibit No. 19 was manked 9 fon identification. l BY MR. MITCHELL: 20 a 27 I'm going to give you exhibit No. 9, which is an appontionment 22 signed by Mr. Duffey, dated September 23 page 24 last several 25 hand 2, does not contain Wene t2th, which, if you'11 look at this footnote that we've been spending hours on. you involved in this particulan appontionment? UNCLASSIFIED the 139 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 A I was awane of the instnuction fnom Mike Duffey to the team to lift the ho1d. a How did you leann that the hold was being lifted? A Via email. a Fnom whom? A Fnom Mike Duffey. a When? A It would've been eithen on the L1th on the 12th of Septemben. a Okay. Who else was in the email? . Centainly, if it A I think pnobably pentained to the appontionment specifically, it would've been I a t2 13 email Did Mn. Duffey fonwand an email to you, on was this his own ? 19 A As I necalI, it was his own email. a And that was the finst time that you heand that the hold was being lifted, was through that email? A That's connect. a Did you have any convensations on communications of any sont with Mn. Duffey following this email on Septemben 11th -- on 12th, I 20 think you said? t4 15 16 t7 18 A 2L And this is whene -- apologies -- I pnobably need to go back the date of the email that attnibuted the hold to the 22 and confinm 23 Pnesident's concenns about othen countnies' contnibutions. 24 was 25 I know it in early Septemben that we wene asked to puI} togethen the data. I would like to confinm whether this was the point at which he shaned UNCLASSIFIED 740 UNCLASSIFIED L that that was the nationale fon the ho1d. a So you need to confinm, it sounds like A Yeah. a -- but it's possible that you leanned fon the finst time that 2 3 4 fon the hold was the fact that othen countries wene not 5 the 6 providing sufficient assistance to Uknaine at the 7 hold was lifted? neason A a 8 9 same time that the 0n on about the same time. Did you have any conversations with Mn. Duffey aften you L2 this email about the tifting of the hold? A No. I think we wene just nelieved, in tenms of we had clean dinection now, and the presumption was that this was clear guidance 13 going fonwand. 10 t7 neceived a 14 But you had no conversations with Mn. Duffey seeking furthen 15 clanification about why the hold was in place, what pnecipitated the 16 Iifting of the hold, how Mn. Duffey found out about the lifting of the L7 hold? have any of those convensations with Mn. Duffey? neceiving any othen infonmation along those lines. a Okay. 20 27 didn't A I don't necall 18 19 You Did you speak with anyone e1se, othen than Mr. Duffey on your counsel, about the A Yes. 22 Rob this question. lifting of the hold? Blain stopped by my office one day, and we asked And we neceived -- I'm sonny. We asked him the 23 him 24 question about why thene had been a hold, and we neceived a similar 25 venbal nesponse, meaning pentaining to the Pnesident's concenn about UNCLASSIFIED 74L UNCLASSIFIED L the contnibutions of othen countnies 5 a When did you have this convensation with Mn. B1ain? A That I do not necall, but I'm sure it was in Septemben aften the lifting of the hold. a Had you spoken with Mn. Blain at any point pnion to that time 6 about the hold on Uknainian secunity assistance? 2 3 4 t2 A No. I don't negularly intenact with him in his new position. a How did Mn. Blain come to stop by the office one day? A We11, he used to lead oun nesource management onganization. So I don't know -- and I think he was in the building and he stopped by. This was not his punpose. We wene just catching up with him. a Ane you awane of any -- I believe you testified eanlien about 13 at least t4 period of the hold. 7 8 9 10 11 15 16 one communication between Mn. Blain and Mn. Duffey duning the A Conrect ,/ a Ane you awane of any othen communications, convensations, 77 emaiI, any discussions between Mn. Blair and anyone else at 18 the pendency of the holds? So, in othen wonds, fnom anytime in 19 lune thnough Septemben 11th. 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Yes. I'm awane of one othen email exchange When was that email exchange? !7, As I necaII, it So night befone you netunned back fnom leave? was on on about JuLy Conrect. UNCLASSIFIED duning between Mike Duffey and Rob Blain. a A a A OMB 18. 142 UNCLASSlFIED a And this was an email exchange? A Yes. a Was it fonwanded to you? A It was fonwanded, y€s. a By Mr. Duffey? A Yes. a And was anyone else on this email exchange? A Another examiner in my division named a And what did this email say? A Mike was asking about the reason fon the ho1d. a So Mr. Duffey was asking Mn. Blain? A That's correct. Yeah. Sonny. Mike Duffey was asking Rob 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Blain about the a A L4 15 And what He neason. 77 panaphnasing 18 a He he didn't say? pnovide an explicit response on the let the hold take place -- and I'm hene -- and then nevisit this issue with the President. Did you have any convensations with anyone about what Blain said in this A With 21 a And was same ho1d. did Mn. B1ain said 20 22 fon the simply said, we need to 16 19 neason Mn. email? , yeS, because he'd also received it. night anound the that conversation with time as this email, so mid-JuIy? A I think it -- I 23 24 don't 25 anound nememben nememben the dates of the convensation. I exactly when it was fonwanded. So it would've the time that we neceived the email, UNCLASSIFIED Y€s. been 743 UNCLASSIFIED 1 a Okay. 2 A tdith 3 a Yes. 4 5 6 7 ? MS. VAN GELDER: 0then than with pnepanation with counsel? BY MR. MITCHELL: a A 10 1L WeI1, Have and looking no. I Have you seen seen it necently? it necently? You mean in tenms of going back at it electnonically on - - a Have you nead this email within the last week? A Yes, I have. a Okay. And you indicated that Mn. Blair did not pnovide an 13 74 15 explanation fon the hold in this emaiI. L7 A That is correct. 18 a 19 convensation? a This email that you saw dated July 17th fnom Mr. Duffey to Mr. Blair, when was the last time you saw that email? 9 16 that A I think it was just acknowledging that we didn't have a clean neason fon the hold. I mean, we didn't know the neason fon the hold. 8 L2 And what was Did he say that he did not have an explanation fon the hold? Did he attempt to answen that question? 20 A 2L acknowledged As I necall, the need he did not pnovide an answen and simply to let the hold take effect and then nevisit. 24 a Okay. Did he say he did not have a neason fon why the hold was in place? MS. VAN GELDER: I'm sonny. He has answened it the best he can. 25 He 22 23 said what the email said, and that's what he necalls the email saying. UNCLASSIFIED 144 UNCLASSIFIED BY MR. MITCHELL: 1 a 2 WeI1, okay, so the email place and then we can 4 sum and substance, A Connect. 5 a Do you 7 know why nememben a 10 L1 that thene was no explanation fon the ho1d. This email fnom JuIy 17th, was it only pentaining to Uknaine A No. There was anothen -anothen question 74 other pant. a A 15 16 19 20 a it that was my punview, so it -- I didn't thene was focus on the have ho1d. a Okay. But with negand to the hold that Mn. Blain this email, that hold applied only to assistance. Is that night? discussing in A That is conrect. 22 a okay. 23 MR. MITCHELL: 25 not in and, honestly, to do with a hold? Not that I necall. No, it wasn't pertaining to Uknaine or Did 27 24 "I don't the hold is in place"? 13 18 necall whethen in this email Mr. Blain said, secunity assistance? t2 77 to 1et the hold take A I don't necall- anything explicit along those 1ines. I just 8 9 "We need revisit this issue with the Pnesident" is, in what Mn. Blair said. 3 5 said, I think my time is up. We Uknaine security can yield to the minonity. MR. CASTOR: Can we go off the necond fon a second? UNCLASSIFIED was 145 UNCLASSIFIED [Recess.] UNCLASSIFIED 146 UNCLASSIFIED L 12:24 p.m. l BY MR. MITCHELL: 2 3 a We wene talking about communications between Mn. Blain 4 individuals at OMB. 5 communicating 5 neganding the hold and 7 8 9 Do you have any knowledge with Mn. Vought on or lifting of and Mn. Bolton anound Septemben 9th on 10th the hold on Ukraine secunity assistance? A I do not have any knowledge. a Do you have any knowledge of any communications between Mr. Vought and anyone at the White House about Uknaine security 72 at any time? A No. I mean, I was -- we anticipated that he would be involved in meetings, but I neven got a specific neadout about a 13 specific meeting. 10 11 L4 15 assistance a Okay. you'ne Doesn't mean he didn't -- 19 A Exactly. a -- just not awane of it. A Connect. Connect. a Okay. 20 Do you know whethen DOD was L6 L7 18 27 to obligate all the USAI funds 22 the fiscal year, 23 24 25 have those communications; able to put all the -- on was able between Septemben 12th and the end of Septemben 30th? A No. No, they wene not able to do so. a Okay. How much was left unspent on unobligated? A According to the data we neceived fnom DOD, appnoximately UNCLASSIFIED 147 UNCLASSIFlED L 36 million -- sorny, 35. 6 -- wel1, do you have an understanding as to why that 35 million was left unobligated? A I do not, no. And, in fact, I'd like to clanify my pnevious comment to say, I know that they did not fully obligate the full amount of the appnopniations and that 35, roughly 35 mlI}ion, was left 7 unobligated 2 3 4 5 a And is it your undenstanding that that 35 at the end of the year. 8 a Okay. And ane you awane that Congness had to pass a Iaw as 9 pant of the 2019 continuing nesolution to extend the deadline so that 10 11 L2 13 t4 15 16 77 18 the $35 million could be obligated past A I'm awane that that was a pnovision within the continuing nesolution. a included A We11, what would have happened if this pnovision had not been in the continuing nesolution with the $35 million? Had that pnovision not been included, then any unobligated funds as of September 30th would have expined. a In violation of the Impoundment Contnol Act? A Expired funds, in and of themselves, I would not pnesume violation, but I'm also veny mindful of not pnoviding 19 nepnesent a 20 Iegal opinion. 27 Septemben 30th? a Okay. But you'ne also not awane of any sont of a nescission 23 at any time pnion to Septemben 30th. Is that night? Let me be pnecise: the USAI, Uknaine secunity 24 assistance funds. 22 25 on nepnognamming of these funds A Connect. Thene was no pnoposed nescission and no UNCLASSIFIED 148 UNCLASSIFIED 1 nepnognamm]-ng. a 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Have you calculated, befone coming in today, what the of unobligated funds was? In othen wonds, 250 million vensus 35 million, what that pencentage is? A I think it's appnoximately 14 pencent. Is that connect? a I have the same math as you. Based on youn expenience, is L4 pencent highen than what you've seen in the past? A In tenms of amounts that would not be fuIIy obligated? a Connect, at the end of the fiscal yean. pencentage I it is intent to 10 A 11 obligate fon t2 don't want to run afoul of the Antideficiency Act. I do not 13 pnecise data on thein averages, so L4 is That would vany by pnognam. many pnognams not quite at an accunate chanacterization know !@O DOD's pencent insofar as they I guess what I can say is have 14 pencent of that. a I'm sonny. Is an accunate chanactenization of what? A WeII, of the amount that was not fulIy obligated. a Okay. But because you don't have any data in fnont of, you 15 16 L7 that to histonical 18 can't 19 on any othen accounts 20 assistance compare avenages fon this panticular account that might nelate to similan funds fon security ? 22 I don't have pnecise data, so I feel like I need to answer this question consistently with how I answened a pnevious 23 question about pnecise data. 21 24 25 A a any data Again, So I understand that you're a data guy and you don't in front of you. But based on your expenience UNCLASSIF]ED have and youn 149 UNCLASSIFIED left unobligated at the end of the fiscal t undenstanding, funds 2 fon 3 discussing hene today, would they be in the realm of somewhene between 2, 5,6 pencent, as opposed to twice that twice that amount, 14 pencent? amount, mone than 4 5 involving secunity assistance of the type that pnognams penhaps off the necond.] MR. SANDY: So, again, I know that they aspined 7 to would aspine 9 a nisk of violating the Antideficiency, but I just don't 10 point of companison. a L2 A11 night. Ane you awane 13 unden any cincumstances t4 OMB 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 DOD have a pnecise BY MR. MITCHELL: 11 L7 sonny, use as high a pencentage as possible without nunning 8 76 we'ne IDiscussion 6 15 yean neluctant a mannen OMB in which security assistance? I'm awane of one colleague to speak to We1I, anyone nesigning on leaving at least in pant because of the was handling Uknaine A of someone who left in Septemben. I'm always else's motivations. did you speak with this penson who left in Septemben about thein depantune fnom OMB? A a Yes, And I did. did that penson expness to you, eithen in that convensation on in any othen prion convensations, thein position with to Uknaine's secunity assistance? A Yes, this individual did expness fnustnations. a And what wene those fnustnations that that individual expnessed to you? regand UNCLASSIFIED 150 UNCLASSIFIED MS. VAN GELDER: Ane you going L 2 3 want to know whethen we can MR. MITCHELL: aften the whistleblowen? just cut this off I just now. NO. 5 I don't know that they know who the whistleblowen is, acconding to pnevious testimony. So I don't know how they would 6 know whethen 4 MR. MEADOWS: they'ne going aften them or not. 7 MR. MITCHELL: 8 MR. SANDY: 9 10 11 L2 13 WeIl, this is an OMB employee, not in the IC. I think the fnustrations nelated mone to appontionment issues on the IAD side. BY MR. MITCHELL: a So when you say -A Intennational Affains -"appontionment issues on the IAD sider " do you a the Depantment-of-State-sponsoned L4 specifically 15 Ukraine assistance? mean FMF pnognam for 19 A No. He did not ovensee that prognam. a Okay. So did this penson have any concerns neganding Uknaine security assistance that this penson expressed to you? A Yes. So this penson had also received -- and I don't necall 20 the specifics of the nequest. 2L similan to the one that 22 executing appontionments. And 76 L7 18 23 So, again, I I He was also concenned about nequests neceived on Fniday, JuIy 19th, can speak to I don't how 24 neceived on Fniday the 19th, and 25 frustnations I I know the specifics in his area. nesponded can say UNCLASSIFIED in tenms of to the nequest that I that he expressed some 151 UNCLASSIFIED a 1 2 my question was, did this individual expness any concerns about Uknaine secunity assistance? A I'm honestly just tnying to necall. I'm not tnying to parse 3 4 But my wonds. I neca1l, he expnessed 5 As 6 undenstanding 7 a Was 8 A No. 9 a Ane you awane 10 A fnustnations about not the neason fon the hold. That's of any individual in the Legal Division OMB -- 0h. 13 a -- at least in pant because of A 0h. Yes, I am. l4 a 15 IDiscussion 16 MS. VAN GELDER: L7 MR. MITCHELL: Would you mind 18 MS. VAN GELDER: L2 19 tell off the necond.] I'm assuming, just so we make it clean -- just speaking -- the question is, into the micnophone? what did the depanting penson him about why they wene depanting? don't MR. MITCHELL: Why 2t MS. VAN GELDER: Okay. 22 MR. SANDY: vis-a-vis the we stant with that. This penson expnessed to me concenns about actions Impoundment Contnol Act. BY MR. MITCHELL: 24 25 Uknaine secunity assistance? And what do you know about that? 20 23 my necollection. this individual within the Legal Division? nesigning on leaving 11 some a In the context of Uknaine secunity assistance UNCLASSIFIED and the hold? L52 UNCLASSIFIED A Yes. I 1 neven want fon an individual's actions, but 2 punpose 3 fnustnations in that anea, a Okay. 4 to attnibute that as the, you know, sole So I am awane of thein y€S. this penson who wonked at OMB Legal expnessed 5 concerns about the hold on Uknaine secunity assistance and nesigned 6 fnom OMB. And 7 OMB 8 9 did that person te1I you that he on she nesigned at l-east in pant because of concerns with secunity assistance? IDiscussion off the necond.] MR. SANDY: I'm sonry. Can you nepeat the question? BY MR. MITCHELL: 10 a Sune. 71 Did this penson at OMB Legal teII you that they wene at least in pant because of thein concenns L2 leaving on resigning fnom 13 on fnustnations about the hold on Uknaine secunity assistance? A t4 15 16 77 fnom Yes, OMB in tenms of how -- y€S, in tenms of that pnocess, in pant. A Okay. What wene the concenns about the pnocess? MS. VAN GELDER: If he can explain that process without 18 explaining what would've been something that was pnivileged, he 19 explain 20 2L 22 it. "Unhappy to allow him to to them. with the pnocessr" whatever, but I'm not going answen a question that a lawyen at MR. SWALWELL: And, Counsel, if he's going to talk concenns, 24 convensations duning the pnocess, 25 pnivileged. OMB the way I intenpnet about counsel 23 But can to is explaining this, with Mn. Sandy, that you would deem that I think oun concenn is that, if this is UNCLASSIFIED youn as a convensation 153 UNCLASSIFIED 1 post-pnocess but anound why this 2 not fall unden was attonney-client. I -- 3 MS. VAN GELDER: 4 MR. SWALWELL: Not 5 individual is leaving, that that Congress - necognized that we acknowledge that as a pnivilege. 8 I undenstand that. But I sti}I, to leave just a wide benth hene, if the penson is saying -- and I don't know what the penson is going to say, because this is news to me -- "I 9 disagnee with counsef's intenpnetation of thatr " I'm going 6 7 MS. VAN GELDER: 10 him not 11 If you want to say, "I ane doing somethingr" 13 with 1.5 this. have a genenalized disagreement on how they gnanulan And MR. GOLDMAN: Okay. But the fact of the disagreement is not pnivileged. MS. VAN GELDER: The L7 MR. GOLDMAN: Okay. fact of the disagreement is not pnivileged. BY MR. MITCHELL: 18 a Okay. So let me ask it this way. disagnee with So did this individual genenal counsel's advice or 20 who nesigned fnom 2t othen individuals fnom the Genenal Counsel's Office about 22 the hold on Uknaine secunity assistance? 23 to instnuct I'm fine, but we'ne not going to get 16 19 And to answen that. t2 L4 Right. OMB MS. VAN GELDER: Yeah, 24 giving the 25 Do you undenstand neason why, but if we OMB say, did he explain to did the penson tell you that how to handle him. was the You're neason? that you just didn't stant it off with a pneface. UNCLASSIFIED 154 UNCLASSIFIED Do you undenstand 1 the question? off the recond.] MR. SANDY: I'11 note the disagneement. IDiscussion 2 3 BY MR. MITCHELL: 4 7 a Okay. So the penson who nesigned did A If I'm not violating pnivilege -IDiscussion off the necond.] 8 MR. SANDY: So 5 6 the individual did note a disagreement BY MR. MITCHELL: 9 10 t7 72 13 have a disagreement. a I'm A a So the individual did note a disagneement on this topic. And assistance sonry? "this topic" the hold on Uknaine secunity ? 15 A a 16 MR. GOLDMAN: 14 bei.ng Connect. Okay. lust one mone thing, just to be clean. The with -- what was the disagneement with? Not the L7 disagneement was 18 specific details of it, but was the disagreement with the fact that 19 OMB 20 with 2L disagreement? What was the topic 22 23 24 25 was putting the how -- implementing the hold? Was the disagneement the Genenal Counsel's Office was handling it? What was the of the disagneement? off the necond.] MR. SANDY: I think the best way to chanactenize it IDiscussion would be a dissenting opinion vis-a-vis the Impoundment Contnol Act pnovisions. MR. GOLDMAN: And whethen on not they apply to the UNCLASSIFIED Uknaine 155 UNCLASSIFIED 1 secunity assistance hold? 3 say that MR. SWALWELL: PIease use 5 MS. VAN GELDER: Thank 6 - 7 the 8 as 10 11 72 13 - how the he can micnophone. you. I apologize. the Counsel's Office Control Act, but MR. GOLDMAN: That's MS. VAN GELDER: may have intenpneted I don't think he can go into specifics I fine. He didn't say that. thought he said dissenting opinion over how the act was -MR. GOLDMAN: He just said a dissenting opinion about the Impoundment Contnol Act. BY MR. GOLDMAN: a So 16 opinion mone 19 -- to -- 15 18 with he disagneed Impoundment L4 t7 he he disagneed with the way the Counsel 4 9 to -- I think all MS. VAN GELDER: That goes back 2 I would just like to undenstand what the dissenting specifically nelated to. A In the context of the hold on Uknainian assistance. a Okay. And just while we're on this topic, can I -- you indicated that 20 you necommended at eveny step of the way in the appontionment 21 at the end of August that Mn. Duffey speak to the 22 Genenal Counsel's 23 Is that 24 25 and early September Office pnion to signing off on the pnocess appontionments. night? A That's connect. a Did you even detenmine whethen he did speak to the Genenal UNCLASSIFfED 156 UNCLASSIFIED L Counsel's Office? A Yes. And he did? 4 a A 5 a And 2 3 6 with the He confinmed that on mone than one occasion. did you even confinm that he was acting in necommendation fnom 7 IDiscussion off the 8 MR. SANDY: YCS. 11 72 a 15 16 t7 18 L9 20 2t 22 recond.] Okay. acting in accordance with the guidance fnom And he was the General Counsel's Office? A That's connect. BY MR. MITCHELL: 13 t4 Genenal Counsel's Office? BY MR. GOLDMAN: 9 10 the accondance a After you leanned of these committees' intenest in to you, did you have any communications with anyone at possibility that you wene testifying befone Congness? A OMB speaking about the Yes. a And you're laughing and smiling; And why is that? A ft was a matten of gneat interest within OMB, panticulanly among caneen staff. a Okay. A Sonry. Ane you talking about just the fact that I 23 nequested and then anticipated neceiving a subpoena, on ane you 24 about something else? 25 a Wel1, did anyone at OMB was talking tel1 you that you should not appear UNCLASSIFIED 157 UNCLASSIFIED 1 voluntanily? 2 A 3 MS. VAN GELDER: Not So, as I necall, my counsel sent 4 this counsel.. MR. SANDY: Sonry. Yes. I'm sonny. 5 My Office of the General Counsel pnovided an email nesponse to 8 -- sonny. It was the Thunsday evening after I neceived the nequest letter. So I think that email best descnibes the OMB Office of Genenal Counsel position. So that's the finst answen 9 to youn question. 6 7 the committee on the BY MR. MITCHELL: 10 a 11 And thein position was 72 voluntanily absent the 13 be present fon that intenview? that you should not testify pnesence on the ability for agency counsel to 16 A That is connect. a Okay. And subsequent to that exchange that you just described, did you -- I'm not asking about youn counsel, but did you 77 have any communications on convensations 18 testifying L4 15 A 19 with anyone at We1I, I did when I infonmed my genenal -- so I had my 2t I genenal counsel when I 22 And genenal counsel to intent to appear if 25 also alented my I also alented my had netained pnivate counsel. subpoenaed. a Okay. And what was thein neaction? A Thein neaction has been consistent in tenms of, I that their a general counsel in advance of that email nesponse. convensation with 24 about befone Congress? 20 23 OMB pnefenence would be undenstand fon me not to appean in the absence of UNCLASSIFIED 158 UNCLASSIFIED counsel. that has been thein pnefenence. That is t agency 2 the neasons that 3 to accompany me. And, obviously, that nequest was declined. 4 was 5 6 7 So I specifically nequested that one of agency counsel be able So that thein guidance. off the recond.] MR. SANDY: Subsequent to that, I IDiscussion have heand that agency leadenship nespects my decision. BY MR. MITCHELL: 8 7t a But it appeans that that may have been in doubt? A WeII, again, the initial position of agency counsel, as neflected in that email, was that I should only appean if accompanied t2 by agency counsel. 9 10 13 t4 15 15 A 18 opinion. 20 27 But So they don't necessanily -- haven't changed thein pneference. t7 19 that is still thein position today, is it not? To my undenstanding, y€s, that is still their position. a A a That is connect, consistent with the Office of Legal Counsel a Okay. When you say "the Office of Legal Counsel opinionr do you mean -- we1I, what do you mean by that? MS. VAN GELDER: If you're awane. 22 MR. SANDY: Okay. 23 So I am awane -- 24 tenminology 25 that executive -- and I hope " I'm using the connect legal about an Office of Legal Counsel opinion that suggests bnanch officials should be accompanied by agency counsel UNCLASSIFIED 159 UNCLASSIFIED L in onder to pnotect the pnenogatives 2 to nepnesent agency intenests a 4 heaning. -- and when I say counselr" I mean General Counsel's Office -- reaction when What was 5 "genenal 6 you 7 a told them OMB genenal counsel's neaction that you wene going to be appeaning today pursuant to subpoena? You'ne smiling again. 8 10 at the -- sonry -- in onder BY MR. MITCHELL: 3 9 on executive A We11, I'm smiling because I want to pontnay this accunately, and it wasn't one neaction. It stanted with a concern about my t2 that not suppont for my decision. And by the time I finished my conversations, I appneciated -- my statement was, I nealize 13 people may not agnee with my decision, but L4 expnessed nespect LL appeaning and a 15 You fon I appneciate that they have it. testified eanlien that you'ne awane that Mn. Duffey has 16 not taken the same path as you and has nefused to appean, despite having t7 neceived a subpoena. Have you had a convensation with him? 18 A 19 letten, 20 plan 27 22 23 24 25 to a Since he and I is my supenvison, I alented alented him of my netention appean if to of pnivate received the counsel and my subpoenaed. And what was Mn. you wene going I him when appean if Duffey's reaction when you told him that subpoenaed? -- f would say, as a supenvison, he was gnacious in acknowledging the difficult situation that this put me in and, I think, gnacious in undenstanding that I needed to make a decision in A He was UNCLASSIFIED 160 UNCLASSIFIED 1 consultation with 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 13 L4 15 22 23 24 25 change youn decision? No. Have you had any conversations to come in voluntanily? with Mr. Vought about A Yes. He called me yestenday monning. And while I don't nememben his pnecise wonds, again, I had the sense that he respected my decision and wished me well. At any point duning that convensation did he try to encounage a you to change youn decision? A a No. Have you neceived any cornespondence fnom anyone at OMB regarding youn appeanance before Congness? connespondence 21. to No. t7 20 convince you Did he at any time advise you not A 19 to Mn. Duffey? 16 18 pnivate counsel. appeaning befone Congress? 11 L2 Did he tny a A a A a 2 my Any cornespondence -- do you mean in tenms of official ? a Official connespondence. A No. The only official cornespondence that I'm awane of was addnessed to my pnivate counsel. a Have you seen that official connespondence? A I have seen it, yes. a Was that official conrespondence neceived pnion to the issuance A of the subpoena, which was this Yes. UNCLASSIFIED monning? 161 UNCLASSIFIED a Okay. And did that official connespondence expness what you 7 2 descnibed as OMB's preference 3 deposition appean voluntanily for a ? A It 4 that you not expnessed, yes, the pnefenence that I -- weII, let me put 6 it this way -- that I only appean if accompanied by agency counsel. a Okay. Did it dinect you not to appean if agency counsel 7 could not be pnesent, voluntanily? 5 8 MS. VAN GELDER: 9 MR. SANDY: a 1.1 s 17 18 19 I did not nead it as a dinection. did it say anything about what to do if you wene ? A No. pnefenence fon Again, me to MR. GOLDMAN: 15 16 And ubpoenaed 13 L4 you necal}. BY MR. MITCHELL: 10 72 If speak it just -- I think, appear consistent that -- thein with agency counsel. A1l night, Mn. Duffey -- op, Mn. Sandy, you can with youn lawyen. off the necond.] MR. SANDY: Sonny. It dld dinect me to have my pensonal counsel ask fon a postponement until agency counsel could accompany me. IDiscussion BY MR. GOLDMAN: 20 a 2L lot Mr. Sandy, w€'ne almost done, but we've been jumping around the past sevenal houns, so I just want to 22 a 23 timeline quickly to 24 penspective as 25 So, oven it make sune that nun through the we undenstand evenything fnom youn nelates to Uknaine secunity assistance, in June, you neceived a nequest fnom Mn. Duffey UNCLASSIFIED all night? to gather some 162 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 72 information about Ukraine secunity assistance. A a A a copied on A a Connect. Technically, my staff did. Right, but you neceived the Yes. I was copied on Okay. 0h, so he was asked accunate? Yes. nequest. it. -- Mn.'Duffey asked youn staff, and you were it. I necaI1, yes. A11 night. And you pnovided some infonmation to Mn. Duffey As about Uknaine secunity assistance. A a Is that My Is that night? staff did, yes. And then you wene asked fon fon mone infonmation, on youn staff more infonmation? 16 A WeII, as I necaIl, there may have been two on thnee emails with, like, followup questions along the same lines. a Okay. You go on vacation fon most of the first half of Ju1y. And when t7 you get back, you ane fonwanded two emails fnom Rob Blain, 18 Mulvaney's deputy, 19 secunity assistance. 13 t4 15 to Mn. Duffey, related MF. to the hold on Uknaine Is that night? 22 A That is connect. a Okay. And, in both of those emails, it says to the effect of that this hold is being nequested fnom the White House for OMB to 23 implement. Is that conrect? 20 27 24 25 that -- Y€s, that thein dinection is coming fnom the Pnesident and it applies to militany suppont funding fon Uknaine A It explains UNCLASSIF'IED 163 UNCLASSIFIED 1 and -- A 2 3 yes. And, just to be clear, thene was no neason pnovided fon that decision. A That is connect. a Okay. And, to youn knowledge, this is the veny finst time 4 5 youn careen whene a hold has been placed on secunity assistance 6 in 7 the after CN has been sent. 9 A I don't necall a pnecedent like this. a Subsequent to leanning about this ho1d, you and youn staff 10 took a numben of actions to implement the ho1d, including the drafting 11 of a footnote as pant of L2 that 8 A To DOD. a I mean, sonny, to DOD. A Yes. a In consultation with DOD, but prion to sending that L4 15 16 apportionment. Is that night? A Connect. 18 19 to Congness. Is night? 13 L7 an appontionment sent over with DOD and with a 20 And you In consultation with OMB Office of Genenal Counsel DOD genenal counsel. also expnessed concenn to youn supenvisor, 27 Mr. Duffey, related to whether this hold could be legally 22 unden 23 time 24 25 the Impoundment Contnol Act implemented -- is that cornect? -- anound that in mid- to late Ju1y. A The way I would chanactenize it is, it naised questions that we needed to wonk thnough, and only aften wonking thnough those UNCLASSIFIED L64 UNCLASSIFIED I questions and developing the footnote could we be confident in terms 2 of executing that 3 a And one aspect 4 impontant 5 obligate 6 accunate to you was 9 appontionment. 1.1 A a that DOD would still was panticulanly sufficient time to have ? 8 10 of the footnote that all of the funds by the end of the fiscal year. Is that A a 7 appontionment. Connect. And that was included in a footnote on the July 25th Conrect. Following the luly 25th appontionment, you wene removed as 72 the approver fon the appontionments for Uknaine secunity assistance. 13 Is that connect? 74 A I 15 16 77 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 area. was removed as So, yes, it's all appontionments make sure the appnover fon connect, but I want to it's in my clean that it's fon all appontionments. a It was fon evenything. A That's connect. a And Mn. Duffey then became the appnover. A Connect. a Okay. And one of the neasons that Mn. Duffey gave to you fon why he wanted to -- why he was going -- wel1, withdnawn. Mn. Duffey indicated to you that this was a decision fnom the Acting Dinecton that he concunned with. Is that night? A Yes. It was a decision that was jointly supponted. UNCLASSIFIED 155 UNCLASSIFIED a 1 And understanding, of counse, that the Acting Directon, as 2 the Acting Dinector, has ultimate authonity fon 3 apportionments, 4 5 who approves to your knowledge, this was the finst time in youn caneen at OMB whene a political appointee was delegated the appnoval authonity oven the appontionments in your anea. Is that night? A That's connect. a Following that change in delegation of appnoval 5 7 8 Mn. Duffey appnoved anothen apportionment on August 6 9 included that A a 10 11 t2 same A a that also night? With changes to two dates. Undenstood. So without negard the dates then 13 footnote. Is that authonity, to the dates. Obviously, move out. Right. 15 7th, you contnibuted to a memo to the Acting Directon nelated to the hold on Ukraine secunity assistance. Is that 16 night L4 ? A a t7 18 0n August Connect. And it was the necommendation of you and youn team to lift 19 the hold fon policy neasons that wene unifonmly supported by the entire 20 intenagency. Is that connect? 2t A 22 was not awane 23 that 24 25 was When you say "the entire intenagencY, of anothen agency a staff-Ievel a Right. that had a necommendation on And you agneed "I would different opinion and that policy grounds, Y€S. with that staff-Ievel recommendation. UNCLASSIFIED just say, I 165 UNCLASSfFIED t 2 3 A a Yes. And you wene not that disagreed with that awane of anyone in the staff level at OMB necommendation. 5 A a 6 Then, subsequently, on August 15th, anothen appontionment 4 Correct. Okay. was 7 signed by Mn. Duffey that also included the same footnote, although 8 the dates did not match up. Is that night? t4 A I think, technically, the one on the 15th was fon anothen punpose, and so it kind of had the -- the old footnote was just sort of left oven. a Undenstood. A Right. a We11, on that, wene you aware that DOD supported that 15 footnote as of August 15th, on was that an 9 10 11 72 13 ennon? 20 I recall -- I'm sonny, I don't have them in fnont of me. As I necall, thene was a gap in thene. And so I think -a Okay. We don't need to get back into it. A Okay. a This just is mone of summany. 27 But then on August 2?th, August 27th, August 31st, Septemben 5th, 16 t7 18 19 A So, as 6th, and Septemben 22 Septemben 23 that did not contain that 24 obligate 25 necollection 10th, Mn. Duffey appnoved appontionments language that DOD would sti11 be able to all of the funds by the end of the fiscal yean. Is that youn ? UNCLASSIFIED L67 UNCLASSIFIED if you're not centain of the dates, just let us know. A I just want to check one othen piece of that. a Yeah. It ' s exhibit 8. A So, just to be veny pnecise, it did not include the sentence And 1 2 3 4 5 that, quote, 6 in obligations wiIl not pneclude 7 policy dinection," end quote. a 8 9 10 "OMB undenstands fnom the Depantment Was that your pause timely execution of the final that was because DOD could not centify to And would be able to obligate yean. DOD's that this bnief OMB that they all of the USAI funds by the end of the fiscal understanding? 72 A It was my undenstanding that DOD could not suppont that sentence. It didn't mean that it would be impossible. I just want 13 to 11 make that clarification. L4 a WeII, the language 15 would be able 16 be impossible. L7 A 18 footnote and to That use DOD the used is they could not centify that they funds. That does not imply that was no longer comfontable it would with that -- with that sentence in the footnote. a Right. 19 all I Undenstood. But you also had convensations with DOD, and I'm 20 tnying to undenstand that the reason that they 2L with that is that they could not guarantee that they would be able to 22 obligate 23 why 24 wene all of the funds by the end of the fiscal that sentence in the footnote was taken out. A Yes, that was my undenstanding fnom DOD. UNCLASSIFIED not comfontable yean, and that's 168 UNCLASSIFIED 1 [3:06 p.m.] BY MR. GOLDMAN: 2 a 3 until 5 of 6 concenns about whethen on 7 Impoundment Contnol 9 Septemben L0th General Counsel, within BRD, and with A Yes. this hold was consistent with Act. Is that an accunate assessment, 11 cornect. 12 a vis-a-vis the DOD to Act. that you didn't That's have to put youn name on these appontionments? A I will just t4 note this factually that my nole changed and that 15 Mike Duffey took the lead on the intenactions with 16 intenactions with OMB's genenal counseL L7 nesponsibilities in approving appontionments. to DOD infonm him and the vis-a-vis his a But that had been youn nole as of the end of July? A It had been my no1e, Yes. a And so wene you nelieved that that was now his nole and not 18 19 20 2L summany? And, thenefore, they Impoundment Contnol And, Mr. Sandy, wene you nelieved the the ability of fully obligate the funds befone they expined. expnessed concennS 13 not whene people expnessed DOD They expressed concenns about 10 20th with othen people in youn office, within the Office 4 8 this peniod fnom August And you had convensations duning youn nole? A I did not necommend the change in appontionment 22 broadly. you'ne asking a question, but 23 nesponsibilities 24 to 25 nesponsibility so it wasn't as though say mone So that I did not necommend that change I UNCLASSIFIED in I want apportionment was seeking that change in 169 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 appontionment nesponsibilities a Understood. But with nespect to these specific appontionments, which A . feIl within youn Right. 8 -- you do not have to put youn name on them, and you had expnessed concerns about the hold. So the question fon you is, did at any point you feel any nelief that you no longen had this nesponsibility as it nelated to these specific 9 apportionments 5 6 7 a -- pnevious punview. Now you are ? L2 A Penhaps in the sense that I spent less time wonking on this issue. But let me just -- I will just be quickto notethat I obviously would have continued to wonk on it just as I had done at the last week 13 of July so -- t4 a 10 11 Did any of youn to expness concenns 16 on these appontionments? A members whose names you about the 15 77 staff fact that thein They expnessed concenns about did appean on them name was included thein noles insofan as they 18 were neceiving dinection fnom Mike Duffey about the apportionments to L9 noute fonwand. And 20 and continue 2L 22 23 24 25 my advice to them was that we negisten the concenns to advise Mike Duffey to consult with genenaL counsel to consult with the Depantment of Defense. a Duning this peniod Do you want to jump in, Mr. Swalwell? MR. SWALWELL: No. Let's kick it to the minonity. MR. GOLDMAN: 0h, sorny. UNCLASSIFIED and L70 UNCLASSIFIED BY MR. CASTOR: 1 a lust in summany, the reason for the change in delegation 2 fon to you by Mn. Duffey as a 3 appontionment authonity was communicated 4 vehicle fon him to gain more expenience with the pnocess, connect? A That was one of neasons, yes. a Okay. Wene thene any othen neasons? A lust neitenating the ones I stated before in terms of being 5 6 7 involved in day-to-day operations and senion leadership intenest 8 mone 9 in mone insights on amounts that ane going to specific purposes. 13 a 0kay. Did any of that, to youn knowledge, have to do with the Pnesident's concenn for spending, specifically foneign aid? A That could have played a factor on the State USAID side. a Okay. Now, Mn. Duffey is the he's a PAD -- he's the L4 pnognam 10 L7 72 15 16 17 18 19 associate dinector, connect? A Connect. a How many PADs ane thene? A Thene are five. a Okay. Did any of the other foun PADs take this appontionment authority ? 20 A No. 2t a okaY. 22 A And 23 24 25 I'm sonny. There ane five onganizations. A A So who lead nesounce management So thene ane foun othen comparable positions. this decision was a Duffey-specific That is connect. UNCLASSIFIED change? t71 UNCLASSIFIED a 1 2 So nobody OMB wanted the PADs genenally, al1 the politically appointed fo1ks, to take this authonity A I 3 was not awane that that on? was unden considenation. a Okay. You undenstand my question, though? A You mean in tenms of making the change mone widespread? 4 5 6 a Yes. 7 A Again, 8 at the leadenship of I just know it was only implemented fon oun nesounce management onganization. a Okay. And to youn knowledge, this decision wasn't made by 9 to bning mone political contnol 10 Mn. Vought on any senion person at 11 of the situation? L2 A It 13 a Okay. You indicated Mn. Vought called you yestenday when L4 was not chanacterized as such. he leanned that you wene appeaning hene today? A a 15 16 L7 OMB Yes. And you also said that OMB leadenship respects youn decision to testify? 18 A 19 a Okay. Meaning that they ane not mad at you, they ane not That was my takeaway fnom the convensation. to netaliate against you. to in and coopenate 20 going 2t to the extent you ane coming in with youn lawyen instead of agency 22 counsel 23 24 25 They want you come ? A Again, I did -- there was a letten to counsel. So I think the official position of OMB has remained the same. a Okay. But that official position, if I may, involves a UNCLASSIFIED tt2 UNCLASSIFIED with having agency officials appeaning befone Congness L policy 2 without agency counsel to pnotect the intenest of the 3 4 concenn A a That is the position, as To youn knowledge,OMB and 5 concerned about Mr. Sandy's 6 widespnead 7 8 9 I undenstand it, the lawyens at specific testimony. agency? yes. OMB, It they weren't was mone a policy considenation? A Connect. a Okay. So they didn't have any specific fean of the testimony you would offen. They wene concenned about having thein lawyens locked in thein mind, agency equities ane at play? A Connect. I would also just, in the spinit of a complete out of the noom when, L2 answen, say that there was also a concenn about a pnecedent of having 13 a caneen staff penson testify. 74 a Okay. But, again, it 10 11 15 16 77 18 19 20 had nothing to do with youn specific testimony hene today. A a WeI1, I did not discuss my testimony of counse in advance. But you wene called here identified to testify today about specifically mattens? A Right. a This is an impeachment at initiative about these Uknaine 2L issues. 22 concenn about 23 consistently a policy concenn about having thein lawyens locked out 24 of the noom. 25 So nobody OMB leadenship on the lawyens expnessed any the specific testimony you wene going to offen. It was A Connect. I think they would have taken a similan position UNCLASSIF]ED 773 UNCLASSIFIED L with othen staff as weII. 2 a Okay. And is it that if youn undenstanding agency counsel 5 to panticipate in these proceedings, that othen OMB witnesses would have been able to come in as well. MS. VAN GELDER: I'm not going to have him answen that. That 6 would be a discussion 3 4 7 had been able MR. CASTOR: Okay. BY MR. CASTOR: 8 9 10 11 L2 13 L4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 that would be with his a And nobody at OMB, cornect me if I am wnong, tnied to influence your testimony here today, connect? A No. a Okay. They didn't tell you what not to discuss, othen than pnivilege issues? A And those communications went thnough my personal attonney. a Okay. So nobody at OMB told you, "please do not give facts about X, Y on Z"? A a No. The only instnuction you wene given were thnough youn lawyen about pnivilege considenations? A Connect. a Okay. Whethen it pnivilege A a be executive pnivilege on attonney-client ? Conrect. And, again, given the communication you had with Mr. Vought, you'ne going to go back to work on Monday and you feel UNCLASSIFTED like you don't L74 UNCLASSIFIED 7 expect to 2 cornect ? A I 3 4 be retaliated against fon participating have neceived no in this pnocess, indication at this point that that's concenn. feel like you'ne -- I mean, You're a highly valued memben of the OMB team, conrect? I mean, You used to be the acting -- you wene the acting dinecton fon a stint? a Okay. 8 A Connect. 9 a Okay. So no one's given you any indication that you've 5 5 7 a And you 10 fallen out of favon 11 today? because you've decided to potentially testify t2 A No. I've gotten no indication of that thus fan. 13 MR. CASTOR: Mn. Meadows. 1.4 MR. MEADOWS: Mn. Sandy, want to come back to OMB bnoadly I think a lot of questioning today is tnying to figune out what's 15 because 1.6 unique and what's different. Ane you awane 17 I hene of othen effonts within OMB outside of youn dinect 18 nesponsibility where OMB has looked at reonganizing the 19 they'ne stnuctuned, the way that they intenact with other agencies, 20 specifically Ms. Weichent and othen aneas? Ane you awane that 27 are othen onganizational changes that ane happening on contemplated 22 in that thene OMB? I 23 MR. SANDY: 24 MR. MEADOWS: 25 way am somewhat familian, but yes. So, as you talk to some of youn OMB caneen pnofessionals that have been thene a long time, would you agnee that UNCLASSIFIED 775 UNCLASSIFIED 1 on has thene been discussions among some of youn colleagues 2 have changed 3 nesponsibility that 4 communicated in other aneas othen than just we discussed here youn specific today? 5 at aI}, Mn. Sandy? MR. SANDY: I'm sorny. Changed in 6 MR. MEADOWS: to that things Has that been ever you what way? Just onganizationally, the noles of the Directon, of those responsibilities, 7 Management and Budget 8 look at the nesponsibilities within 9 time, and some of those I have knowledge of just and othen some aneas. OMB OMB -- as we you've been thene a long Ane you aware because we have of 10 ovensight oven LL onganizational changes on dinections that have happened in othen areas t2 of MR. SANDY: Again, I'm most knowledgeable about the nesource onganization so I'm not aware of any onganizational change. t4 management 15 You nefenned L7 any contemplated OMB? 1_3 16 OPM to the neorganizational plan that Deputy Dinecton Weichent is championing, so I think that's the biggest. of a, of counse, OPM-GSA nelated But that's much mone of in any othen MR. MEADOWS: Have you nead about on ane you aware 1.8 19 way that the Pnesident of the United States has a genenal concenn 20 the amount 2t specifically, just with 22 23 24 25 of money that MR. SANDY: So we ane spending on Uknaine but just I'm aware of the about foreign aid bnoadly, not bnoadly? pnoposed neductions in the Pnesident's budget. MR. MEADOWS: And do you help pnepare pant of that budget, on do you pnovide input on an annual basis fon the Pnesidential budget that UNCLASSIFIED L76 UNCLASSIFIED L is published? MR. SANDY: 2 3 Centainly, not in the foreign assistance nealm, other than fon prognams unden DOD. MR. MEADOhJS: A11 4 is it night. So, as you look at those pnognams a fain chanactenization of the budget that genenally 5 bnoadly, 6 moneys 7 activities get neduced in the annual budget and those 8 fon the Pnesident ane not necessanily aligned with what gets 9 appnopriated 10 11 is congressional action has been diffenent fnom the Pnesident's request in foneign assistance. Yes. MR. MEADOWS: And lot 13 a 74 mone 16 annual pnionities ? MR. SANDY: t2 15 fon foreign assistance and othen State Depantment nelated mone My undenstanding wouldn't you say that Congress genenally spends time and effort and makes a pniority of foneign aid a lot than the Pnesident's budget? MR. SANDY: appnopniations, Centainly by vintue of the nelative nequest in it is a lowen pnionity fon the Pnesident. UNCLASSIFIED 777 UNCLASSfFIED 1 2 13:22 p.m.l MR. MEADOWS: And so, as we look at foneign aid genenally and youn 3 portfolio -- I 4 but we've had othen witnesses that would suggest that thene have 5 holds on othen aid to foneign nations, 6 was some foneign assistance holds on othen countnies, maybe 7 Balkans. knowthe question has been asked in different formats, Ane you awane of 9 MR. MEADOWS: Ane you awane L2 13 affect thene in the that thene's still a hold on aid to Lebanon? We've had another witness MR. SANDY: I think Yes. Again, not my lead area, but I'm awane of them. MR. SANDY: 11 Lebanon. those? 8 10 i.e., testify to that. I'm not awane of the specifics because that doesn't my anea. MR. MEADOWS: Mr. Caston, I'II yield back. BY MR. GOLDMAN: 14 15 a 16 You'ne obviously awane that Mn. Vought defied the subpoena to tl 18 19 20 2L We'ne almost done hene. a A a And Mn. Duffey as well? Yes, I'm And so, awane. when you had any convensations express any concenns nelated to the 23 we have no documents, 25 come testify here. Is that night? A I'm awane of his nesponse. 22 24 been with them, did they -- oh, and you'ne also awane that night, fnom OMB? A That's -- I'm awane of that. a Even though we subpoenaed the documents? UNCLASSIFIED t78 UNCLASSIFIED 4 A I'm awane of that. a So, did they expness any concenns that you wene breaking the widespnead policy at OMB to obstnuct this investigation? A I would stick by my pnevious answens about -- in tenms of 5 their 7 2 3 pnefenences. a lust following up on Mn. Meadows' 5 questions, that whateven undentaking to look into foneign aid, that's 7 review the Pnesident 8 all 9 the Uknaine secunity assistance that we've been discussing hene today, 10 L\ t2 13 l4 15 may be looking ahead to the futune, night? That has nothing to do with which is A alneady a pant So, pentaining if of the you'ne talking about, obviously, budget requests to futune appnopniations a Right. A -- advice, this was an FY19 issue. a rn eanly Septemben, yoU testified that you neceived a nequest 15 fon infonmation about othen L7 Uknaine. Is that night? 18 19 20 2L a 23 fon the 25 -- the aid pnovided by othen countnies to A Connect. a And you don't nememben the specific date; you just know it was in Septemben. A As I necaII, eanly September. 22 24 1aw, connect? And pnion to that nequest, you wene unawane of any neason hold. Is that night? A I was unaware of a definitive neason. a And did you pnovide infonmation about what other countnies UNCLASSIFTED t79 UNCLASSIFIED 1 have 2 3 4 5 6 -- the aid that othen countries have given to Uknaine? A Again, the staff did, yes. a Your staff did. A Yes. a And do you know if that aid included both secunity assistance or military aid as well as othen economic aid? A I believe so, but, again, I don't necall the specifics. a So it wasn't necessanily specific to militany aid. A I don't believe so. a So ane you awane, actualIy, that the Eunopean countnies 7 8 9 10 11 provide a lot t2 does 13 L4 15 16 mone bnoad economic aid to Uknaine than the United States ? A I don't have specific data. To be consistent with my pnevious responses, I am awane of -- I am awane of having read something along those lines in pness neponting. a And then, at some point in eanly Septemben, Mp. BIain stopped Again, 18 office and told you that the reason fon the hold was out of concenn that the United States gives mone aid to Uknaine than othen 19 countnies? 0n, nathen, that other countnies should give t7 20 21 22 23 24 25 by youn A a A a A a mone as welli That's connect. And do you know when that convensation was? I'm sonny. I don't necall the Do you know It It if it was after. was aften. was befone on And that that was UNCLASSIFIED aften the hold was lifted? the finst time that you had 180 UNCLASSIFIED 3 definitive answen. Is that night? A No. As I nefenned -- as I mentioned eanlien in my testimony, I also neceived an email along those lines, and I apologize that I don't 4 necall the specific date. 1 2 neceived a 6 a I guess the confusion I have is, was that email the same email as asking fon infonmation about othen countnies' aid, or was it a 7 diffenent 5 A It 8 9 I 10 L\ different email. It was subsequent, and that's why to go back and confinm. I know it was in September. a But what is relevant here is that that email was after the would need A That's conrect. a And you just don't nememben it, but it 13 anound Septemben 11 when A It 15 16 Septemben 17 I 18 was a nequest fon infonmation about other countnies' aid? 12 t4 email? was lifted? veny well may have been. fon the nequest, and apologize that a the aid I know may have been night I think I was the othen email thinking eanly came laten. So I don't necall the specific date. And between the date that you got the email request fon mone 19 infonmation and the day that the aid was lifted on Septemben 11th, 20 you awane of whether any othen countries had agneed to pnovide more 27 aid to Uknaine in that peniod of time? 22 A I'm not awane of anything. 23 MR. SWALWELL: Do you guys have anything 24 25 conclude if ane else? I was going to bring up aften the to you don't. MR. CASTOR: trle had one matten we wanted UNCLASSIFIED 181 UNCLASSIFIED t witness leaves. Stick around fon that. 2 MS. CASULLI: 3 MR. SWALWELL: Mn. Sandy, 4 testimony today as was unique, 5 you descnibed I I want to thank you fon coming would say, in thnee ways: in. One Your in that that you had not seen, othen than in this instance, such 11 of aid held up fon no appanent neasonl two, in youn experience, you've neven seen a political appointee assume the nole of appontionments as was done in youn case; but, I think, most impontantly to us today, thnee, you ane the finst OMB witness to be willing to come fonwand and honon oun nequest to pnovide infonmation fon this inquiny. L2 So, fon the thind one, we ane veny grateful, and thank you fon 6 7 8 9 10 13 a significant amount doing that. I mentioned in the beginning, we will not tolenate any and if thene is anything like that, we hope that you let us Again, as t4 15 nepnisal, 16 know. t7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 UNCLASSIFIED t82 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 MR. SWALWELL: We ane adjounned. 4 IWheneupon, at 3:29 p,m., the deposition UNCLASSIFIED was concluded.]