1 I 2 ON INTELL]GENCE, J PERI"IANENT SELECT COMMITTEE 4 j oi 5 COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM 6 and the 7 COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS, 8 U.S. 9 WASHINGTON, D.C. nt wi th the HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, l0 1l t2 l3 INTERVIEW OF: GORDON SONDLAND t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 Thursday, 0ctober 17, t9 Washi ngton, 20L9 D. C. 20 2l 22 23 24 25 in the above matter was held in Room HVC-304, Capi tot Vi sj tor Center, commenci ng at 9:30 a. m. Present: Representatives Schiff, Himes, Sewe11, Spe'ier, Qu i gley, Swalwel 1 , Heck, Welch , Maloney , Demi ngs The interview , 2 1 2 J Krishnamoorthi, Nunes, Turner, Conaway, Stewart, Stefanik, and Hurd. Also Present: Representati ves Ma1 j nowski , Raskj n, Bera, 4 Cicillini, 5 Rouda, Deutch, Gi bbs, lnlasserman Shul tz, Wagner , We1ch, Mast, 6 T1aib, 0casio Cortez, Jordan, McCaul, 7 8 9 l0 1l t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 Conno11y, Bass, Espaillat, Lieu, Hi11, Deutch, l'4eadows, and Roy. 3 1 Appea rances: 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 For the PERt'lANENT SELECT COMMITTEE 0N INTELLIGENCE: 4 I For the COMMITTEE 0N OVERSIGHT AND REF0RM: 2 J 4 5 FOT the For G0RDON S0NDLAND: COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS: 6 7 8 9 l0 ll D. l2 ROBERT l3 KWAME t4 DANIEL ALAN l5 PAUL HASTINGS LLP t6 t7 Street, NW Washi ngton, D. C. 20005 l8 and t9 JAMES 20 BALL JANIK LLP 2t L01. SW Mai n 22 Sui 23 Portland, 0regon 24 25 J. LUSKIN MANLEY HOLMAN 875 L5th te T. MCDERMOTT Street LL00 97204 5 l3 All ri ght. Let's come to order. At the outset, I want to express -- I know what many of are of feeling this morning over the loss of our colleague, Elijah Cummings. There are few members, I think, that have ever served in thjs body who enjoyed wider respect and love among thej r colleagues as Elijah Cummings. He was a dear friend to many of us. He was an inspirat'ion to all of us. I spoke w'ith him repeatedty whjle he was convalescing, and he was always offering his support and guidance and his superb example. We lost a giant among us. And I wanted to relay something that he a poem that he ci ted 'in hi s, as I understand, hi s f i rst L-mi nute as a new member of the House of Representatives more than 20 years ago t4 by Dr. Benjamin E. I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mays. 22 just a minute. 0n1y 60 seconds in it. Forced upon me, can't refuse it, didn't seek it, didn't choose it, but it's up to me to use it. I must suffer if I lose it. Give account if I abuse it. Just a tiny litt1e mi nute, but eterni ty i s j n 'it. That so typifies Elijah Cummings, who I thjnk viewed every minute as a blessing and not to be squandered. And truly lived every mjnute,as if it might be his last, and gave 23 us j ust an l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 24 25 I have only i nc red i ble legacy. 5o with your indulgence, of silence in memory if we could pause of our colleague, Elijah for a moment Cummings. 6 I I Pause. ] 2l I don't know if one of my colleagues in the mj nor i ty mi ght 1 i ke to make a statement about E1 i j ah. MR. JORDAN: Thank you, Chajrman. And let me just echo what you said. I think the folks in Baltimore, the whole State of Maryland, this town, and frankly the whole country are saddened by the loss of our friend. And he truly was a friend to both sides of the aisle. And I will say, personally, I am, like all of of you, I'm going to miss him, I'm going to miss just debating with him, arguing with him, he was special. And it was funny, because we would debate and go at i t i n commi ttee and then I'd see him in the gym and we'd be talking about the normal things that folks talk about. He was a good man. He was a good chairman. And, like I said, I think this whole town and the whole country is saddened by the loss of Chairman Cummings. So thank for the moment of s'ilence and your words. THE CHAIRMAN: I thank you, Mr. Jordan, and we did some soul searching about whether we should, or could, go forward today, but I think we felt that he was so dedicated to his work that he would want the work to continue, and so we plow 22 fo rwa rd 2 a J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll 12 l3 t4 l5 16 t7 l8 t9 20 23 THE CHAIRMAN: . Good morning, Ambassador Sondland, and welcome 24 House Permanent Select Committee on 25 along with the Foreign Affairs Intelligence, to the wh'ich, and Oversight Committees, is 7 I 2 J 4 5 6 of the official i mpeachment i nqui ry of the House of Representati ves. Today' s deposi ti on i s bei ng conducted as part of the i nqui ry. In light of attempts by the State Department to djrect you not to cooperate with the inquiry, the committee had no cho'ice but to compel your appearance today. We thank you for conducting this'investigation as part 8 with the duly authorized congressional subpoena. After creating and operating a successful hotel business, 9 Senate confirmed Ambassador Sondland on June 28, 2019, to 7 l0 ll t2 t3 complyjng the -- oh, sorry, 201-8. If it had been 2019 it would be a completely different circumstance to serve as the Ambassador to the European Union in Brussels. serve as Ambassador Ambassador Sondland's appearance today under subpoena, l8 of the State Department's decision, in coordination with the White House to obstruct the impeachment inquiry by d'i recting the Ambassador at the 1-1th hour not to appear on 0ctober 8th for his scheduled depositjon. The commjttee was therefore forced to 'issue a subpoena for l9 Ambassador Sondland's appearance today. t4 l5 l6 t7 20 2l 22 23 24 25 as a result In the intervenjng week, the committee has collected important evidence and learned a great deal of new on, j ncludi ng through powerful and detaj 1ed testi mony of Ambassador Yovanovi tch, Dr. Fi ona Hi 11 , Deputy Assistant Secretary of State George Kent, and Ambassador McKinley. The comm'ittee wilt also hear from Ambassador B'i11 i nformati 8 1 2 Taylor, our Charge d'Affaires in Kyiv next week, among others. And, Ambassador Sondland, we look forward J to hearing 4 your testimony today about your involvement in Ukraine policy 5 and 6 efforts to secure a White House meeting with President Zelensky, as well as the July 25 call between President Trump 7 and Ukrainian President Zelensky, and the documentary record 8 9 l0 that has come to light about efforts to get the Ukrajnians to announce publicly investigations 'into two areas President Trump asked President Zelensky to pursue: the Bidens and the ll conspiracy about Ukraine's purported interference 'in the t2 U. 2016 S. elect'ions. l5 I turn to committee counsel to begin the deposition, and I know your counsel has some things to put on the record, I invite the ranking member to make any opening l6 remarks. l3 t4 Before MR. NUNES: Ambassador, welcome. Thank you t7 for being 24 today. Before we begin, I'ffi going to yield to Mr. Jordan for our opening statement, but I just want to raise to the majority that both Foreign Affairs and Oversight were jnformed of these new meetings next week. I would just state that j f we're goi ng to conti nue th'is ci rcus, I , at least, would like to know what time the circus begins. I don't know if that was done on purpose to the Intelligence 25 Committee Republicans, but my colleagues from both Foreign l8 l9 20 2l 22 here 9 J Affairs and Oversight were notified. So I hope in the future, that we learn at the same time that other colleagues know about the start times. And with that, I will yield to 4 ['1r. Jordan. 1 2 13 you. I thank the gentleman for yielding. Ambassador, thank you for being here today. Thank you for your service to our country. 0n September 24th, Speaker Pelosi unilaterally announced that the House was beginning a so-ca11ed impeachment inqui ry. 0n 0ctober 2, Speaker Pelosi promi sed that thi s so-ca11ed i nqui ry impeachment inquiry, would treat the President with fairness. However, Speaker Pelosi , Chai rman Schi ff, and the Democrats are not livi ng up to that basi c promi se. Instead, 14 Democrats are conducting l5 unprecedented i nqui ry. 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l6 l7 l8 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 MR. J0RDAN: Thank Democrats a rushed, closed-door, and are ignoring 45 years of bipartisan to provide elements of fundamental fairness and due process in past impeachment i nqui ri es, and the maj ori ty and mi nori ty had coequal subpoena authority and the right to require a committee vote on subpoenas. The President's counsel had a right to attend all depositions and hearings, including those held in executive session. The Pres'ident's counsel had the right to cross-exami ne wj tnesses, the ri ght to propose wi tnesses. The President's counsel also had the right to present evidence, procedures, procedures that were designed 10 j ect to the adm'issi on of evi dence, and to revi ew all I ob 2 evidence presented both favorable and unfavorable. Speaker Pelosi and Chairman J Schiff's so-company 7 inquiry has none of these guarantees of fundamental fairness and fundamental due process. Most di sappoi nti ng. Democrats are conducti ng thi s so-ca11ed impeachment inquiry behind closed doors. This seems to 8 nothing more than hiding 9 The 330 4 5 6 impeachment this be work from the American people. t6 mjllion people who are represented by Members of Congress don't get to see anY of it. If Democrats intend to undue the will of the American people, just a year before the next election, they should at least do so as transparently, and be willing to be accountable for their actions. With that, I yield back. THE CHAIRMAN: I thank you, and I will yield to my counsel. I do want to point out that we are following all 17 the deposi ti on noti ce requi rements, and i ndeed, the l8 requirements t9 the l0 ll t2 13 14 l5 20 maj ori that the now same minority observed when they were in ty. Mr. Goldman. MR. GOLDI'4AN: Thank you, Mr. Chai rman. Thi s i s the 2l deposition of Ambassador Gordon Sondland, conducted by the 22 House Permanent 23 the impeachment inquiry announced by the Speaker of the 24 on September 24th. 25 Select Committee on Intelligence, purSuant to Ambassador Sondland, House could you please state your fu11 11 I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 16 t7 l8 l9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 name and spel1 your last name Al4BASSADOR SONDLAND for the record. Gordon Dav i d Sondl and , S-O-N-D-L-A-N-D. th other proceedi ngs i n furtherance of this inquiry, this depositjon is part of a joint investigation led by the Intelligence Committee jn coordination with the Committees on Foreign Affairs and Oversight and Reform. In the room today are minority staff from the Oversight Committee. The majority staff are mourni ng together the loss of Cha'i rman Cummi ngs and wi 11 not be here today. In add'ition, there is majority staff and minority staff from both the Foreign Affairs Committee and the House Intelli gence Commi ttee. Th'is i s a staf f -1ed deposi ti on, but members, of course, as has been the case all a1ong, may ask questjons during their allotted t'ime. My name is Daniel Goldman, f 'm the director of investigation for the HPSCI majority staff, and I want to thank you f or comi ng 'in today f or th'is deposi ti on. Let me bri efly do some j ntroducti ons. To my ri ght i s Daniel Nob1e, senior investigatjve counsel for the Intelli gence Commi ttee. l"lr. Noble and I wi 11 be conducti ng most of the interview for the majority. Now I will let my counterparts from the mi nori ty i ntroduce themselves. MR. CASTOR: Good morning, Steve Castor with the Republican staff of the Oversight Committee. MR. G0LDt"lAN: Along wi 12 MS. CASULLI: Good morni ng, Laura Casulli I 2 general counsel mi nori ty, HPSCI MR. K0REN: Good morni a J 4 , Oversight Republican staff , deputy . ng, si r . Mi chaet Koren, House . l3 tion wi 11 be conducted enti rely at the unclassi fi ed leve1 . However, the deposi ti on i s bei ng conducted in HPSCI's secure spaces and in the presence of staff with appropriate security clearances. It is the committee's expectation that neither the questions asked of the witness nor the answers by the witness or wjtness' counsel, whjch does not have security clearance, will require discussion of any information that is currently, or at any point, could be properly classified under Executive 0rder t4 13s25. 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll 12 l'4R. G0LDMAN: Thi s deposi t9 that, quote: In no case sha11 information be classified and continue to be maintained as classi fi ed, or fai 1 to be declassj fi ed, unquote, for the purpose of concealing any violations of law or preventing embarrassment of any person or entity. If any of our 20 questions can only be answered with classified information, 2t Ambassador Sondland, 22 before you answer the question and we can adjust accordingly. l5 t6 t7 l8 l"loreover, E0 13526 states w€'d ask that you inform us of that Today's deposi ti on i s not bei ng taken i n executi 23 ve 24 session, but because of the sensitive and confidential nature 25 of some of the topics and materials that will be discussed, 13 2 well as the House ru1es, access to the transcript of depos'ition wi 11 be l jmi ted to the three commi ttees in 3 attendance. And under those 4 Member as of Congress nor any House staff deposition ruIes, the no member can di scuss the 6 of the testjmony that you provide today. You and your attorney wi 11 also have an opportuni ty to rev'iew the 7 transcript. 5 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 substance I'd like to go over some of the ground rules for thjs deposit'ion. We wiIl be following the House regulations for depos'i tions, and we have previously provided those regulations to your counsel. The deposition will proceed as follows: The majority will be given t hour to ask questions, and then the minority witl be given t hour to ask questions. Thereafter, we will alternate back and forth between maj ori ty and mi nori ty i n 45-mi nute rounds unti 1 questionjng is complete. We will take periodic breaks, but 'if you need a break at any time, please 1et us know. Under the House deposition ru1es, counsel for other persons or other government agencies may not attend. You are allowed to have an attorney present during this deposition, and I see that you have brought some. At this time, if counsel could please make their appearances for the record. Before we begin, MR. LUSKIN: Good morning. I'm Robert Luskin from of Paul Hastings, with me js the 24 law firm 25 Manley, and we are joined by Jjm McDermott from the law firm my partner Kwame 14 1 2 of Ball Janik, and we're here as counsel for Ambassador Sond 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 and . MR. G0LDMAN: Thank 3 4 1 you. Ambassador Sondland, there is is sa'id here today in order to make a written record of the deposition. For that record to be complete, please wait until i finish or we finjsh all the questions that are asked of you, and we will do our very best to wai t unt'i1 you f i ni sh your answers bef ore moving on to the next question. It's important that you and staff and members not speak over each other. So please do wait until the question is finished. The stenographer cannot record nonverbal answers, such as shaki ng your head, or an uh-huh, so 'i t's important a stenographer taking down everything that that you answer each question wjth an audible verbal answer, parti cularly I f i t's a yes or no questi on. We ask that you give complete replies to questions based on your best recollection. If a question is unclear or you l8 are uncertain in your response, please 1et us know. And if t9 you do not know the answer 20 s 2t 22 23 24 25 i mply say so You may to a question or cannot remember, . only refuse to answer a question to preserve a privi lege recogni zed by the' Commi ttee. If you refuse to answer a quest'ion on the basi s of privi 1ege, staf f may ei ther with the deposition or seek a ruling from the chairman on any objection, in person or otherwise, during proceed the 15 tion at a time of the majori ty staff's choosi ng. If I deposi 2 the chair overrules any such objection, you are required to J answer the question. 8 t is unlawful to deliberately provide false information to Members of Congress or staff. It is imperative that you not only answer our questions truthfully, but that you give fu11 and complete answers to all questions asked of you. Omissions may also be 9 cons'i l0 oath, n and raise your 4 5 6 7 And, fina1ly, you are remjnded that'i dered as false statements. As thi s deposi ti on i s under Ambassador Sondland, would you please stand right now l6 right hand to be sworn. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: I do. MR. GORDON: Let the record reflect that the witness has been sworn. And now, Ambassador Sondland, jf you have any t7 openi t2 l3 t4 l5 l8 t9 20 2t 22 24 25 ng remarks, thi s i s the ti me. MR. LUSKIN: And, Mr. Goldman, with your permissjon, matters. Last night, I received a letter from the Department of State, which I guess I would characterize as an admonitory letter directed towards Ambassador Sondland. I'd like to share a copy wjth the Committee and have it placed in the record. But we'd also want to make clear that we do not understand that letter as asserting or directing that couple of housekeeping a 16 I 2 J 4 5 Ambassador Sondland he all of your questions today without reservat jon and wi thout the assert'ion of any privi 1ege. The second point is that Ambassador Sondland is pleased to be here in response to your subpoena for his testimony, intends to assert any privilege, and therefore, answer 7 but the Committee also served a subpoena duces tecum on Ambassador Sondland directing him to produce documents. As 8 we have discussed 6 with staff , Ambassador Sondland bel'ieves l0 that he is precluded by law from producing offjcial records that are in his possession, all of which have been turned 1l over to the Department of State, and therefore, t2 respectfully declines to produce those l3 morning. 9 t4 l5 16 17 18 t9 20 2l 22 ^/.) 24 25 he documents this that it's his belief , and ours, that the Committee should have access to all relevant documents, and he regrets that they have not been provided in advance of his testimony. Having those documents would lead to a more fulsome and accurate inquiry into the matters at hand. Indeed, Ambassador Sondland has not had access to all of the State Department records that would help him refresh hi s recollect j on i n ant'ici pati on of thi s testi mony. And we are also aware of other documents that we think would corroborate his testimony in material respects. So it i s w'ith regret, and not out of any di srespect f or the committee or any challenge to its legitimacy, that we must But we also wish to emphasize 17 I decfine to produce documents in response to that 2 And 1et me share the J 4 5 6 subpoena. letter, wh'ich i s addressed to the three chai rmen thi s morni ng, i f I may. MR. GOLDMAN : Thank you , Mr . Luski n . We a1 so regret that we do not have the documents. And one thing that I would j ust say to I''lr. Sondland, bef ore your openi ng ll statement. Because we don't have the documents that may be relevant to your testimony, you may find that some of our questions seem basic. But because we are in a factfinding effort here, we don't know what we don't know, so we may ask questions that seem basjc. We'd sti1l ask that you provide t2 fu11 answers 7 8 9 l0 to them. SONDLAND: Understood. t3 AMBASSADOR t4 THE CHAIRMAN: l5 l6 You're recognized for your opening statement. AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And 20 for the opportun'ity to provide this testimony today. I was truly disappointed that the State Department prevented me at the last minute from testifying earlier on 0ctober 8th, 2019. But yourissuance of a subpoena has 2l supported my appearance here today, and 22 provide the following testimony. t7 l8 t9 23 24 25 thank you I'm pleased to First, let me say that it is an honor to serve the people of the United States as their Ambassador to the European Unjon. The U.S. Mission to the EU is the d'i rect 18 I tink 2 countries, America's longest standing allies and one of the between the United States and the 28-member EU 4 largest economic blocks jn the world. A strong united and peaceful Europe helps to uphold the norms that maintain 5 pol i ti 6 the world. J 7 8 9 cal stabi f i ty, and promote economi c prosperi ty around like to thank my staff and the many ded'icated public servants with whom I have the privilege to work every day. I have benefited immeasurably from their Second, I would l0 collective ll t2 patriotism serves as an example to us all. Third, let me note that my goal today is to answer your l3 questions directly and clearly t4 I w'isdom, experience, and hard work, and thei r to the best of my knowledge. statement in advance with l6 not shared th'is opening either the White House or the State Department. These are my own words. It is important to emphasize at the outset that I t7 have had 1i mi ted ti me to rev'iew the relevant f acts i n order l8 to prepare for l5 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 have testimony. I will do my utmost to answer the committee's questions ful1y and truthfully, but the my of time is challenging. And 1et me also say that I have good friends from both sjdes of the ais1e, many of whom have reached out to me to provide support. As we go through this process, I understand that some people may have their own spec'ific agendas. Some want me to say things to protect the President at all costs. shortness 19 I 2 J 4 5 6 facts to support the other side. But none of that matters to me. I have no interest in pursuing higher office or taking polit'ica1 shots. Simply put, I am not here to push an agenda, I'm here to te11 the truth. I am a lifelong Republican. Like all of my political Some may want me to provide damning t7 of the President, and I serve at the pleasure of the President. I know that party affiliations are set asjde when representing the United States. Having served on nonpartjsan commissions by the appointment of three Democratic governors, and on the transition team for 0regon Governor Ted Kulongoski, another Democrat, I am well-accustomed to worki ng across the aj sle. For example, I worked briefly with former Vice President Bi den's offi ce i n connecti on wi th the Vi ce Presi dent's nat jonwjde Anti-Cancer In jtiative, and I admj re h'is Iong record of public service. I had bipartisan support for my l8 ambassadorial nomination. And my successful business t9 background and my results-oriented focus made me, 20 well-sui ted 2t policy that the President had sought. 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 13 t4 l5 t6 22 ambassadorial colleagues, I am an appointee my view, to bring the fresh perspective to U. S. foreign As you know, I was confirmed by the Senate in 23 bipartisan voice vote as Ambassador to the 24 20L8, and 25 From my I in assumed EU a on June 28th, that role in Brussels on July 9th, 2018. very first days as Ambassador, Ukraine has been a 20 I part of 2 Ukraine's my broader work pursui ng U. S. nati onal i nterests. 8 political and economic development are critical to the long lasting stability of Europe. Moreover, the conflict in eastern Ukraine and Crimea, which began nearly 5 years ago, cont'inues as one of the most signifjcant security crises for Europe and the United States. As the U.S. Ambassador to the EU, I have always viewed my Ukrajne work as central to advancing U.S. -EU foreign policy. Indeed, for decades, under 9 both Republican and Democrat administratjons, the J 4 5 6 7 Unj ted l0 States has viewed Ukraine with strategic importance, lt to counter Russian aggression in t2 Ukrai ne energy i ndependence. Europe and to in part support l3 My i nvolvement i n i ssues concerni ng Ukrai ne, whi 1e l4 small part of my portfolio, was nevertheless central to l5 ambassadorial l6 similar to other non-EU countries, st,tch as Venezuela, Iran, and Georgia, with respect to which my mission and I coordinate closely with our EU partners to promote policies that reflect our common values and interests. I have always endeavored to keep my State Department and t7 l8 t9 20 21 22 24 25 a my responsib'ilities. In this sense, Ukraine is ty Counci 1 colleagues i nformed of my act'i ons and to seek their input. I understand that all of my actions involving Ukraine had the blessing of Secretary Pompeo, as my work was consi stent wi th longstanding U. S. forei gn policy obj ecti ves. Indeed, very recently, 5ecretary Pompeo sent me Natj onal Securi 21 1 2 a congratulatory note that I was doing great work, and he encouraged me to, quote, "keep banging away. " l0 I continue my work jn Europe, here in Washington there continues to be inaccurate and unsourced speculation regard'ing my work i n Ukrai ne. To be helpf u1 as you f rame your questions, let me share an outline of the facts. F'i rst, as Ambassador to the EU, my Ukraine portfolio began on day one, from the very fjrst briefing materials I received in the summer of 2018. Although it did not consistently occupy a great deal of my time, involvement in ll Ukraine matters was considered by the career professionals t2 who prepared my l3 my J 4 5 6 7 8 9 While briefing materials to be an important part of portfol i o. 0n July 13th, 2018, t4 just 4 days after assuming my post, l5 I received a delegation from the Government of Ukraine at l6 U. t7 then-Ukraine Government, and like most meetings, was proposed t8 and arranged by career EU Mission t9 i ni 20 and other locati ons 'in Europe duri ng the f all S. Mj ssi on i n Brussels. Thi ti al contacts, I attended s the meeti ng was sought by staff. Following those numerous meeti ngs i n Brussels 22 of 2018, to advance U. S. i nterests i n Ukrai ne. These 'interests ref lect a whote-of-government engagement, not just a narrow focus. We ZJ discussed economic development, energy independence, and 24 securi 25 From my 2t ty concerns regardi ng Russi an aggressi on i n Ukrai ne. position in Brussets, my goal has always been to 22 l6 te the i ntegrati on of Ukrai ne i nto the broader western norms of Europe and the Un'ited States. To be c1ear, my role has been to support my colleagues in the State Department for whom Ukraine issues are a ful1-time job and to lend my voice when helpful. These professjonals included, fi rst and foremost, the Head of Mission, which at the start of my service was Ambassador Mari e Yovanov'i tch, and more recently, Charge d'Affai res Wi 11i am Taylor and thei r embassy staff. I worked with Ambassador Yovanovitch personally during my first off"icial visit to Ukraine in February of 20L9, and I found her to be an excellent diplomat with a deep command of Ukrainian internal dynamics, the U.S.-Ukraine relationship and associated regional issues. She was a delight to work with during our visit to Odessa, Ukraine. I was never a part of any campaign to disparage or dislodge her, and I regretted t7 her departure. I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll 12 l3 t4 l5 l8 t9 faci 1 i tate and expedi Similarly, in my time working with Ambassador Taylor, I have found him to be an insightf u1, strateg'ic, and ef f ective 24 of U.S. interests. He cares deeply about the future of Ukraine and is a dedicated public servant. The Ukrai ne Mi ssi on worked hand- i n-hand wi th Speci a1 Envoy Kurt Volker, another experi enced di plomat, wi th a speci a1 remi t to address the ongoing confljct in Eastern Ukraine and Crimea. 25 Mr. Volker was an exemplary professional. 20 2l 22 23 representative 23 I viewed my role as adding value to the broader efforts 5 of the Ukraine team through my engagements w'ith high leve1 leadershi p i n Brussels and Washi ngton. Duri ng my fj rst offi ci a1 tri p to Ukrai ne on February 25th, 2019, I traveled to Odessa with Special Envoy Kurt Volker, former EU Deputy 6 Secretary General Jean Chri stophe-Belf i ard, a representative 7 of the Romanian EU presidency, 8 Joined by Ambassador Yovanovitch, U.S. Navy 2 3 4 9 l0 1l t2 r3 and many other officials. Commander ["tatthew with then-Ukraine President Poroshenko on the U. S. Navy shi p Donald ) . Cook. Thi s vi si t demonstrated the U. S. mi 1 j tary's commi tment to Ukrai ne, and furthered our broader agenda of aligning with our EU partners to counterbalance Russi an i nf ,luence i n the regi on. Thi s Powel1, and many others, we met l5 visit followed on the heels of a congressional delegation to Brussels led by Speaker Pelosj. This delegation met with me t6 and sen'ior EU leadershi p. t4 l7 l8 l9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 In these meetings in Brussels and 0dessa, as in nearly every meeting in which Ukraine issues were discussed, corruption and rule of taw were central topics of conversation. Corruption poses challenges to the legi timacy and stabi 1i ty of government. Corruption i s also an economic i ssue. Successi ve Ukra'i nj an governments have sought to attract Western investors as a counterbalance to Russian i nterference and o1 i garch control of key Ukrai ni an compani es. Western investment is fu11y in the strategic interest of the 24 I Un'ited States and our EU partners. However, ef f orts to 2 access private markets have been made extremely a J the longstandi ng corrupti diffjcult by on. As one example, we frequently had conversations with 4 5 Ukrainian leaders about transparency and corporate governance 6 j ssues i nvolvi ng Naftogaz. 1n my experi ence, those i ssues l0 in which both my team and our Ukraine counterparts have raised corruption problems for many years. We have received very positive feedback from the NSC regarding our joint efforts to address these chatlenges in ll Ukrai ne. 7 8 9 have been the constant context 0n April 24tn, 20L9, Volodymyr Zelensky was elected t2 of 13 Presi dent t4 Poroshenko l5 momentous t6 overall Ukrai ne, beati ng i ncumbent Presi dent Petro with nearly 73 percent of the vote. This was a event U.S. in Ukraine, political history, for the -Ukraine relationship. 0n May 20th, 2019, given the significance t7 and of this 20 electjon, I attended the inauguration of Presjdent Zelensky as part of the U.5. delegation led by U.S. Energy Secretary Rick Perry, along with Senator Ron Johnson, Special Envoy 2t Volker, and Mr. Alex Vindman from the NSC. During th'is 22 vi t8 t9 23 ti ve vi ews of the new Ukrai ne President and hi s desi re to promote a stronger relationshi 24 between Kyiv and Washington, 25 attract s'it, we developed posi Western economi to p make reforms necessary to c i nvestment, and to address Ukrai ne's 25 I well-known and longstanding corruption issues. 5 after the Zelensky inaugurat'ion, we were in the we, in the U.S. delegat'ion, briefed President Trump and key aides at the White House. We emphasized the strateg'ic importance of Ukraine and the 6 strengthening relationship with President Zelensky, 7 reformer who received a strong mandate from the Ukrajnian 2 J 4 8 9 l0 ll 0n May 23rd, 2019, 3 days a to fight corruption and pursue greater economic prosperi ty. We asked the Whi te House to arrange a work'ing phone call from President Trump and a working Oval Office visit. people l3 skeptical that Ukraine was serjous about reforms and anti-corruption, and he directed 14 those l2 However, President Trump was of us present at the meeting to talk to Mr. Giuliani, 19 his personal attorney about his concerns. It was apparent to all of us that the key to changing the President's mind on Ukraine was Mr. G'iut jani. It js my understanding that Energy Secretary Perry and Special Envoy Volker took the tead on reaching out to Mr. Giulianj as the 20 Presi dent had di rected. l5 l6 t7 l8 2t Indeed, Secretary Perry, Ambassador Volker, and I 22 disappointed by our May 23rd,2019, White House debriefings. 23 We 24 between Presidents Trump and Zelensky was 'important, and that 25 these should be scheduled promptly and without precondit'ions. strongly believe that a call and a White were House meeting 26 We I 2 that J women 4 were also disappointed by the President's direction we involve Mr. Giuliani. 0ur view was that the men and of the State Department, not the President's personal lawyer, should take responsib'i1ity for all aspects of U.5. 6 foreign policy towards Ukraine. However, based on the Presi dent's di recti on we were faced wi th a choi ce. We could 7 abandon 8 Zelensky, which 5 9 l0 ll for President we all believed was crucial to strengthening the goal of a White House meeting ti es and furtheri ng long-held U. S. forei gn policy goals in the region, or we could do as President Trump directed and talk to Mr. Giuliani to address the President's U. S. -Ukrai ni an l3 concerns. We chose the later path excuse me, we chose the latter path, which seemed to all of us, Secretary Perry, t4 Ambassador t2 15 Volker, and myself, to be the better alternative. But I did not understand until much later that Mr. Giulian'i's l6 agenda might have l8 also jncluded an effort to prompt the Ukrainians to investigate Vice President Biden or his son, or to i nvolve Ukrai ni ans di rectly or i ndi rectly 'in the t9 President's 2020 reelection campaign. t7 20 Following my return to Brussels, and continuing my focus ties, l{ission hosted a U.S. 2t on stronger U.S.-EU 22 Independence Day event on June /.) Despite press reports, 24 advance, and involved approximately 700 guests from 25 government, the di plomati c corps, the my 4th, 2019, L month ear1y. this event was planned months in medi a, busi ness, and 27 I civil society. 2 and High Representatjve of the European J Affai rs. Followi ng the mai The night featured remarks by the Ambassador Union for Foreign n event, we hosted a smaller 5 for about 30 people. President Zelensky and several other leaders of EU and non-EU member 6 states attended the dinner, along with Secretary Perry, 7 U.S. State Department Counselor Brechbuhl on behalf of 8 Secretary Pompeo, and numerous other key U.S. and EU 9 offi 4 separate dinner party ci a1s. Though long-planned i n advance wj th the focus on this l0 improving Trans-Atlantic relations, we also viewed ll as an opportunity to present Pres'ident Zelensky to various event EU l8 to build upon the enhanced government ties. The event was very well received, and contrary to some reporting, Bono d'id not attend or perform. During a trip to Washington on July L0th, 2019, with the express, advance invitation of Ambassador Bolton, I joined White House meetings between representatives of Ukra'ine National Security and Defense, with U.S. NSC officials, l9 including Ambassador Bolton, along w'ith Secretary Perry, 20 Ambassador t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 and U.S. officials and and 23 Volker. I understood following the meeting, as reflected jn the summary of a phone catl the next day between Secretary Perry and Ambassador Bolton, that there was a difference of opinion between Secretary Perry, Ambassador 24 Volker, and myself, on the one hand, and the 25 other. 2l 22 We NSC on the three favored promptly scheduling a call and 28 I meeting between Presidents Trump and Zelensky; the 2 not. NSC djd But if Ambassador Bolton, Dr. Hi11, or others harbored J 5 of what we were doing, they never shared those misgivings with me, then or 1ater. 6 We had 7 both before and after the July meeting. And neither 8 Ambassador 9 ever expressed any concerns to me about our 4 any misgivings about the propriety regular communications with the NSC about Ukraine, Bolton, Dr. Hi11, or anyone else on the NSC efforts, staff any l0 complaints about coordination between State and the NSC, or 11 most importantly, any concerns t2 i mproperly. that we were acting Furthermore, my boss, Secretary Pompeo, was very l3 of our Ukraine strategy. After a series of t4 supportive l5 delays, on July 25, 201.9, President Trump ca1led Presjdent l6 Zelensky t7 parliamentary elections, which, in Ukraine, are separate from l8 the presidenti al elections. s was an important ca11, and l9 I 20 2t 22 23 24 25 to congratulate was pleased hjm on recently concluded Ukraine Thi to hear that it occurred. But let me that July 25th,2019, ca11, and I did not see a transcript of that call until September 25th, 20L9, None of the brief when the White House publicly released it. emphasize, I was not on caIl summaries I received contained any mention of Burisma or former Vice President Biden, nor even suggested that President Trump had made any kind of request of and general 29 2 Zelensky. I heard afterwards that the J u1y 25th, 2019, call went well in solidifying a relationship between J the two Ieaders. I Presi dent 0n July 25th, Special Envoy Volker and 4 I, along wjth 5 others, met with President Zelensky in Kyiv, Ukraine. This 6 was a si gni 7 from the United States and Ukrajne that had been planned 8 9 fi cant bj lateral meeti ng i nvolvi ng large teams by Special Envoy Volker's team weeks in advance. It was planned weeks 'in advance, and was not, i n any way, t j ed to the t3 July 25th, 2019, White House ca1l. I was 'invi ted to thi s meeti ng i n early July. Indeed, as we planned the Kyiv meeting, we did not know when or even if the Whi te House call would occur. Duri ng thi s J uly 25th l4 meeting l5 including discussions about a future Zelensky visit to the l6 Whi l0 ll t2 t7 l8 l9 20 2t 22 Z3 24 25 in Kyiv, we were able to promote further engagement, te House. I do recal1 a bri ef di scussi on wi th Presi dent Trump before my visjt to Kyiv. The calt was very short, nonsubstantive, and did not encompass any of the substance of the July 25,20L9 White House call with President Zelensky. Finally, the White House and the NSC invited me to the United Nations for the first face-to-face meetings between Presi dents Trump and Zelensky i n New York Ci ty, wh'ich I attended on September 25, 2019. This was a positive meeting, and I'm pleased that the leaders were able to meet for the f i rst ti me face- to- face. 30 Given the various misstatements I in the press, I want to 2 take thjs time to clarify several issues, including questions J involving the Ukraine public statement, the involvement of 4 former Mayor 5 knew 6 Ukrajne was one Gi u1 i ani , and other alleged i ssues. Fi rst, I that a public embrace of anti-corruption reforms by of the preconditions for securing a White l6 with President Zelensky. My view was, and has always been, that such Western reforms are consistent with U.S. support for rule of law in Ukraine, going back decades under both Repubtican and Democrat administrations. Nothing about that request raised any red flags for me, Ambassador Volker, or Ambassador Taylor. Consequently, I supported the efforts of Ambassador Votker to encourage the Ukrainian Government to adopt the publ i c statement setti ng out i ts reform pri ori ti es. My recollection is that the statement was wrjtten primarily by t7 the Ukrainians, with l8 offered 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 House meeting Ambassador my assistance when Volker's guidance, and I asked. Th'is was the, quote, 22 " closed quote, referenced in some of my messages. A deliverable public statement that President Trump wanted to see or hear bef ore a Wh'ite House meeti ng could occur. The fact that we were working on this public 23 statement was no secret. l9 20 2l 24 25 "deliverable, public statements are a common and necessary part of U. S. di plomacy. Requesti ng that parti es More broadly, such 31 I align thejr public 2 leadership meeting is a routine way to leverage the power of J a face- to- face 6 7 8 9 in advance of any important exchange. Second, there has been much.press speculation about 4 5 messaging own 'interacti ons wi th f ormer Mayor Rudy Gi u1i ani . my And thi s is important. To the best of my recollection, I met Mr. Giuljani in person only once, at a reception at which I briefly shook hjs hand in 2015, almost 2 years before I became an Ambassador. This was before I became Ambassador to l0 the ll 20 In contrast, during my time as Ambassador, I do not recall ever having met with Mr. Giuliani in person. And I only spoke with him a few times. Ambassador Volker introduced me to Mr. Giuljani electronically. My best recollection is that I spoke with Mr. Gjulianj for the first t j me 'in early August of 20L9, whi ch was af ter the congratulatory phone catl from Pres'ident Trump on July 25th and after the bilateral meeting with President Zelensky on July 26th. My recollection is that Mr. Giuliani and I spoke no more than 2 or 3 t'imes by phone f or about a f ew mi nutes 2t each ti t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 t9 22 23 24 25 EU. me. As I stated earlier, I understood from President Trump, at the May 23rd White House debriefing, that he wanted the inaugural delegation to talk with Mr. Giuliani concerning our efforts to arrange a White House meeting for President 32 I 2 Zelensky. Taking directions from the President, as I must, I spoke with Mr. Giuliani for that limited purpose. In these 4 short conversations, ["1r. Giuliani emphasized that the President wanted a public statement from Pres'ident Zelensky 5 committing Ukraine J to look into anti-corruption issues. Mr. Gi u1i ani speci f i cally ment j oned the 201.6 elect'ion, 6 7 8 9 server, and Buri sma as two anti corruption investigatory topics of importance for the President. Let me be clear. Let me be clear: Mr. Giuliani does not work for i nctudi ng the or f or DNC my l4i ssi on, and I do not know what of f i ci a1 or l0 me ll t2 role, i f any, he has wi th the State Department. To my knowledge, he is one of the President's personal l3 lawyers. t4 15 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2l 22 ./.) 24 25 unoffi ci a1 that the Pres j dent directed Mr. Giuliani's participation, and that Mr. Giutiani was expressing the concerns of the President, and that Mr. Gi uli ani had already spoken wi th Secretary Perry and Ambassador Volker. Ten weeks after the President, on May 23rd, directed the inaugural delegation to talk w'i th Mr. Giulian'i, I had my first phone conversations with him in early August of 2019. I ljstened to Mr. Giuliani's concerns. My goal was to keep the focus on Ukraine and the strengthened relationship wi th the Uni ted States. As an aside, please know that I would have not recommended that 14r. Gi ul i ani , or any pri vate ci ti zen for However, my understand'ing was 33 4 that matter, be involved in these foreign policy matters. However, given the President's explicit direction, as well as the importance we attached to arranging a White House meeting between Presidents Trump and Ze1ensky, we agreed to do as 5 Presi dent Trump di rected. I 2 J 6 7 8 9 Third, given many inaccurate press reports, let me be clear about the following: I do not reca11 that Mr. Giulianj discussed former Vice President Biden or h'is son, Hunter Biden, with me. Like many of you, I read the transcript of l0 the Trump-Zelensky call for the first time when it ll t2 released publicly by the White House on September 25th, 20L9. Although Mr. Giulianj did mention the name Burisma jn l3 August was t7 of 2019, I understood that Burisma was one of many examples of Ukrainjan companies run by oligarchs and lacking the type of corporate governance structures found in Western companies. I djd not know until more recent press reports that Hunter Biden was on the board of Burisma. Again, I l8 reca1l no discussions with any State Department or White t4 l5 l6 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 official about former Vice President Biden or his son. Nor do I reca11 taki ng part 'in any ef f ort to encourage an investigation into the Bidens. I worked hard to keep the National Security Council, including Ambassador BoIton and Dr. Hi1I, apprised of our Ukrainian efforts. In fact, sometime in June of 201.9, Secretary Perry organized a conference call wjth Ambassador House 34 1 Bolton, Ambassador Volker, myself, and others. We went over 2 the entire Ukraine strategy with Ambassador BoIton, J agreed with the strategy and signed off on it. who Indeed, over 5 the spring and summer of 2019, I received nothing but cordial responses from Ambassador Bolton and Dr. Hi11. Nothing was 6 ever raised to me about any concerns regarding our Ukrainian 7 po1 i 4 cy. While 8 I have not seen Dr. Hill's testimony, I am 9 surprised and disappointed by the media reports of her l0 cri ti ca1 comments. To put i t c1ear1y, nei ther she nor ll Ambassador Bolton shared any critical comments with me, even t4 after our July LOth, 2019 Whjte House meeting. So I have to view her testimony, if the media reports are accurate, as the product of hindsight and in the context of the widely known l5 tensions between the National Security Council on one hand, t6 and the State Department on the other hand, which t7 ultimate responsibitity for executing U.5. policy overseas. l8 Again, I took my direction from Secretary Pompeo 12 l3 had and 22 stent support i n deaf i ng wi th our Nati on's most sensi tive secrets, even to thi s very day. Fifth, certainly media outlets have misinterpreted my text messages where I say, stop texting or call me. Any 23 implications that I was trying to avojd making a record of 24 our conversati on i s completely f alse. In my vi ew, d'iplomacy 25 is l9 20 2t have had hi s consi handled best through back-and-forth conversation. The 35 6 of international relations cannot be adequately expressed in cryptic text messages. I simply prefer to talk rather than text. I do this all the time with family, f ri ends, and f ormer bus'iness associ ates, that i s how I most effectively get things done. My text messages comments were an invitation to talk more, not to conceal the substance of 7 our communications. I 2 J 4 5 complexity t4 5jxth, to the best of my recollection. I do not reca11 any djscussions with the White House on withholding U.5. securi ty assi stance from Ukrai ne i n return for assi stance with the President's 2020 reetect'ion campaign. I recall that in late Juty 2019, Ambassadors Volker, Taylor, and I exchanged emajls in which we all agreed that Presjdent Zelensky should have no 'involvement in 2020 U.5. presidentiat l5 electi on po1 i ti cs. 8 9 10 ll t2 l3 t6 At the ty same time, we believed strongly that assi stance shoutd U.S. not be wi thheld. Acti ng Charge l7 securi 18 Wi 11 i am t9 Ukrainians could perceive a linkage between U.S. security 20 assistance and the President's 2020 reelection campaign. 2t Tak'ing the issue seriously and given the many versions of 22 speculation that have cjrculated about the security 23 called Presjdent Trump di rectly. I asked the President, what 24 do you want from Ukraine? The President responded, nothing. 25 There Taylor rai sed concerns about the possi bi 1 i ty that the is no quid pro. aid, I The President repeated, no quid pro. 36 No 2 a J 4 quid pro quo multiple times. This was a very short cal1. I recaIl that the President was really in a bad mood. I tried hard to address Ambassador Taylor's concerns because he js valuable and effective diplomat, and I took And 6 very seriously the issues he raised. I did not want Ambassador Taylor to leave hi s post and generate even 7 turnover i n the Ukrai ne l'li ssion. I f urther encouraged 8 Ambassador 9 up as 5 10 ll more Taylor to contact Secretary Pompeo, as I followed far as I could go. As you have seen contemporaneous messages support thj jn the press, my s recollecti on. Let me state ctearly, jnviting a foreign government to t2 undertake investigations l3 upcomi for the purpose of influencing an 24 . electi on would be wrong. Wi thholdi ng forei gn aid in order to pressure a foreign government to take such steps would be wrong. I did not and would not ever participate in such undertakings. In my opinion, security aid to Ukraine was in our vital national interest and should not have been delayed for any reason. Simply put, my goal has always been to advance U.S. 'interest i n securi ng a strong relati onshi p wi th Ukrai ne. I continue to see our relationship with President Zelensky as having great importance to nat'ional security, and I continue to work to strengthen our ties, advance our mutual interests, and secure a stable prosperous Ukraine for future 25 generat'ions. t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 21 22 23 ng U.5 37 2 I will end my remarks the way I began. Ukraine is not a di rty word. Ukrai ne i s a fragi 1e democracy fi ghti ng agai nst J a a brutal and unscrupulous Russian neighbor. A strong Ukra'ine 4 helps us 8 to uphold the norms that maintain stability and promote prosperity around the wor1d. It remains an honor to serve to people of the Uni ted States as thei r Ambassador to the European Union. I look forward to going back to work tomorrow to advance the interests of the United States of 9 America. Thank 5 6 7 you. for your opening statement. you're recognized to begin an hour of THE CHAIRMAN: Thank l0 ll Mr. Goldman, t2 questioning. MR. G0LDMAN: Thank l3 t4 you you, Plr. Chairman. EXAMINATION BY MR. l5 a l6 GOLDMAN: Ambassador Sondland, you mentioned, throughout your 2l or misleading press reports. Now, no one woutd say that Congress is a steel trap when it comes to 'inf ormati on that may or may not be leaked, but i t's very hard to leak testimony that has not yet been given. 5o I'm curious as to where you think the numerous press 22 reports about your upcoming testimony 23 week? t7 l8 t9 20 24 25 opening statement, false A a came from over the past I don't know. You did not speak with the press at all? 38 1 A 2 a ) speaki ng I personally did not speak to the press. D'id you speak to anyone else who you knew would to the press? I spoke wi th my lawyers. I understand that, but how about anybody else? 4 A 5 a 6 A No. 7 a How be about from the date that you received the t6 testify before Congress. I want to ask you a few questions in terms of your preparation. Did you speak with President Trump at atl about your testimony prior to comi ng here today? A I saw Presi dent Trump at a recepti on f or Fi nn'ish President Ni in'isto. I ran 'into him 'in the cross hallway at the Whi te House. I sai d , I 've been asked to come 'in and testify. And there were a 1ot of people around. He said, good, go tel1 the truth. That was the extent of our t7 conversati on. l8 a A a A 8 9 l0 l1 t2 l3 t4 l5 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 notice to come and How about Chief of Staff Mjck Mulvaney? No. Anyone else in the Whjte House counsel's office? I had a brief conversation with the White House counsel's office when the whistleblower's report came out menti oni ng my name, and the Whi te House counsel's offi ce reached me, I was in New York at the Un'ited Nation Trans-Atlantic dinner. I stepped out of the meeting to take 39 1 the ca11, and I believe we had a short, fairly 2 nonsubstanti a me ve, 3- , 4- , 5-mi nute conversatj on. They wanted t2 to come in for an jnterview, and I declined until I spoke to my counsel, and I never did give that interview. a Do you know what date that dinner was? A No, but I can a It was in New York during the General Assembly? A Yes. a Do you know if it was before the transcript of the call record had been released? A I don't. a And how about bef ore the whi stleblower compla'int l3 was J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll l4 l5 t6 t7 publicty released? A I think the White House counsel, one of the Whi te House counsel said it was about to be released, or it was 'immi nent, and my name was in it. a A come in a A Who 22 of the call was they wanted me to and do an i ntervi ew wi th them. What was the purpose of the interview? I don't know. They asked for an interview, and I d'id not agree to an i ntervi ew until I had spoken with 23 counsel, my own counsel. l8 t9 20 2l 24 a 25 office? The Who real purpose d'id you speak to at the White House counsel's 40 A a I 2 3 A a 5 7 the To go over my recollections and testimony. 0kay. Did you discuss your testimony here today with Secretary Pompeo? A I did not. l0 a A a ll office? 8 9 A a A t2 l3 t4 l5 . i ntervi ew was? 4 6 I believe i t was l"'lichael Purpura (ph) And did he tel1 you what the purpose of U1 ri ch Brechbuhl? No. Anyone at the State Department's legal advisor's No. How about Ambassador VoIker? I spoke with Ambassador VoIker resigned and wished him we11, and I shortly after he asked him one question. l9 I ever met Rudy Giuliani? And he said, not with me present you haven't. And I said, thank you. That was the only conversation I had with him. Why di d you ask h'im i f he knew whether you had met a 20 someone? l6 t7 l8 Have 2t 22 A whi Because that would have been the ch I would have met only context in Mr. G'iuliani would have been w'ith him. a It 24 A Correct. 25 a You never would have would have been with him? tried to organize a meeting on 41 I your own A a 2 th Rudy Gi uti ani? wi No, we never had a meeting. I 5 that. But you would have never tried to organi ze a meeti ng wi th Rudy Gi u1i ani w'ithout Kurt VoIker? A Let me see if I understand your questi on. Would I 6 have had a meeting with Rudy J 4 O A 7 8 9 understand Gi ul i ani one-on-one? Yes. It Ambassador would have probably served no purpose, since Volker and I were working together on this l0 project, although he did ll wi have meet'ings with Rudy Giuliani thout me. l3 is that you never tried to organi ze a meeti ng wi th Rudy Gi ul i anj di rectly wi th Mr. 14 Giutiani? t2 l5 a And your testimony A I think I may have texted Mr. Giuliani, and said, l6 can we get together? And we missed, we never were able to t7 organize anything. l8 t9 20 2t 22 a We never met. Okay. D'id you speak wi th Ambassador Taylor about your testimony? A a A No. How I about Secretary Perry? have spoken with Secretary Perry on several 23 occasions relating 24 Secretary Perry 25 meet i ngs . Yes . to non-Ukrajne business, to refresh my memory about and I did a couple of ask 42 1 a And can you describe what meetings you asked him to 2 refresh your J A memory about? The meeting that was apparently described in the Dr. Hill where she said there was a bad meeting at 4 media by 5 the White House, or something to the effect that the meeting 6 was abruptly terminated, and he said, I don't remember l0 of the kind. I thought it was a great meeting we all left happy. a So i n response medi a reports about Dr. Hi 11's testimony, you reached out to Secretary Perry to have a ll discussion? 7 8 9 t2 l3 t4 l5 16 t7 anything A a A and I did. So when was I spoke that, YesterdaY? with him yesterday, and I spoke wjth him about 3 or 4 days ago. a A What else did you discuss w'ith him yesterday? We have an upcoming conference. My real reason for l8 talking to him was really about the conference on Sunday in t9 Brussels. 20 2l 22 23 24 25 a How about related to your testimony testimony, what else did you discuss wi th or potential him? I only asked him if he recalled anything about that meeti ng be'ing abruptly term j nated or bad or any bad words, and he said nothing of the kind. O Are you referring to the July L0th meeting in the A No, 43 I 2 Whi te House? A Correct. 4 did you think it was appropriate to call Secretary Perry, who's obviously another potential wi tness, 5 the day before your testimony to, quote, "refresh your 6 recollecti on, " unquote? I didn't thi nk i t was i nappropri ate. Do you understand that that ll A a of trying A a l2 Secretary Perry? J 7 8 9 l0 a A a 13 t4 l5 And may have the appearance to line up your testimony with Secretary Perry? I wanted to refresh my memory. Did you consult your lawyer before you called I did. And without before you ca11ed told your lawyer Secretary Perry that you were going to call okay. And you ZJ to refresh your recollection? A I did. a And I won't ask you about those conversations s'ince I understand that they are protected. Did you ask about any other media reports about Dr. Hill's testimony or Ambassador Volker's testimony to Secretary Perry? A Not that I can reca11. a 5o it was just that Ju1y L0th meeting that you were 24 concerned about? t6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 25 him A i bel i eve so, yeah. 44 I 2 J 4 5 a Did you read The Wa11 Street Journal article yesterday about an extensive interview with Secretary Perry? A a r did. Djd that help refresh your recollection as to what occurred around May 23rd? 8 with my statement that I gave. It rea11y was quite harmonized with my statement, and not because they were harmonized, but because that's what 9 happened. 6 7 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 15 A It was consistent to refresh your recollection about the May 23rd meeting, just the July L0th meeting? A Cor rect. Because Dr . Hi 11 ' s testi mony was so at least as'it was reported, was so contrary to any recollection I had, I thought I must have slept through something and missed something. if someone said that a meeting was a So you didn't need t7 abruptly terminated and that angry words were used, when, in fact, we had a great meeting, we all tweeted about it l8 afterwards, and that was that. r6 t9 20 2l a A a A a it a perfect meeting? I wouldn't call it a perfect Was Are you meeting. aware 24 I got the joke. It took me a minute. Are you aware of any efforts by Secretary Pompeo or others at the State Department to try to stop you from 25 testi fyi ng here today? 22 23 45 A 5 I think they wanted to discourage my testimony, and I said, first of all, I wanted to testify when jt was noncompulsory, and I wanted to get my story out and get 'it on the record. And they directed me not to appear, which is why I did not appear on the 8th. And once you jssued the 6 subpoena, again, they discouraged me from complyjng 7 subpoena, 2 3 4 8 9 a but I dec i ded to come 'i with the n anyway. Did you develop an understanding as to why they were discouraging you from complying l0 A ll counsel di d. t2 a t3 anyone No with the subpoena? clue because I djdn't communicate with them, did did you have any conversations dj scouraged you from testi fyi ng? And how my where t8 A A11 through counsel. 0 All through counsel? A Correct. a Did you have any conversations with anyone else prior to your testimony here today in order to refresh your t9 recollection? 20 A t4 t5 16 t7 2t I don't recal1 any. I don't, other than just press reports and my own recollections. 24 a No one at the White House no one else at the Whi te House? A Counsel has had conversations with the White House, 25 I 've had none. 22 23 46 a 2 a J 4 5 Were you relayed information from the through counsel, not sayi ng what A No. No. No. And I that Whi te House 'is? have not met wi th Whi te House counsel e'ither. a Did you read an article published yesterday in The 6 Washington Examiner whjch'included extens'ive excerpts f rom 7 Ambassador Volker' 8 9 A O s testi I did not. moment, One conversati ll before or after Dr. l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 18 l9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 A a on please. You sai I think it And Hi you had another d with Secretary Perry 3 or l0 t2 mony? 4 days ago. Was that 11's testimony? was before. did you discuss anything with him related to the topics of your testimony here today? I don't recal1, because we talk a 1ot. 1ot about the lot of things. We're friends. A We talk a 47 I [10:3]. a.m.l BY MR. 2 a J 4 GOLDMAN: 0kay. But -- so you don't recall whether you discussed your testimony here today? 7 I don't recall , no, because I 've had multi ple conversations wi th him. a When I asked you whether you had discussed your 8 testjmony here today wjth Secretary Perry, you said 3 or 9 days 5 6 A 4 ll ago. So A Wel1, the Dr. H'i11 testimony is what I'm testifying to, the Dr. Hill piece. I don't recall when I talked to him t2 before. l3 a 10 t4 Okay. What else did you discuss with Secretary Perry about that July L0th meeting? 20 It was very cursory. I basically repeated I asked hjm if he had seen the report. He said he hadn't. I sai d, there's a report out there that Dr. Hi 11 sa'id the meeting blew up and was abruptly terminated and that I had threatened the Ukrai ni ans. And he sai d: Not any meeti ng I was in djd that occur. And he was there, obviously, along 21 wi l5 l6 t7 l8 l9 22 23 24 25 A th Ambassador Volker. a So, just so we understand, there have been a lot of media reports. What specific can you recount wjth as much speci fici ty as possible, since he had not seen the media reports, what you relayed to him about what you had read in 48 1 the press? A 2 3 I related to him in a macro sense, bad meeting, blowup, quick termination, threatened Ukrainians. And, 5 again, I had no recollection of that. That was what, 3, 4 months ago. And I sai d, I recalled us all go'ing out i n the 6 garden afterwards and 7 with 8 tweet about the meeting. 4 Ambassador all our pi cture taken, along Bolton, and then everyone put out a friendly havi ng I said: What did I miss? -- Secretary Perry said: You missed nothing. And they were so inconsistent, 9 l0 And Ambassador ll That' s what happened. l6 d i n the past that at some po'i nt the Pres'ident, I think, gave you a special assignment related to Ukraine. What did you mean by that? A I was spi nni ng a I i ttle, to be candi d. THE CHAIRMAN: If I cou1d, before we get into that. t7 Before we move on from the conversation with Secretary Perry, l8 in your conversation with Secretary Perry, did you or t9 Secretary Perry bring up Burisma, as that was the subject of 20 some t2 l3 t4 l5 2l 22 23 24 25 a Now, you have sai of the press accounts of Dr. HilI's testimony? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I don' t be1 i eve we di d. I don' t reca11 talki ng about Buri sma. of the press coverage concerning the follow-on meeting in the Ward Room? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Yes, I believe we did, because THE CHAIRMAN: Did you bring up any 49 I there were two meetings. J did you raise with Secretary Perry about the discussion of the follow-on meeting in the 4 Ward Room on 2 THE CHAIRMAN: And what July AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 5 6 it 7 whether a phone 8 9 l0 ll 10th? was a very short I think we discussed the fact that meeting. We agreed to disagree on call should be made or not, and we all 1eft. And that was the end of the conversation. THE CHAIRMAN: Now, I want to make sure we're talking about the same conversation. 5o in your ca11, was it yesterday wi th Secretary Perry? t2 AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Yes. 23 In preparat'ion for your testimony today, you discussed not only the meeting, the first meeting on July l-0th, but also the subsequent meeting in the Ward Room? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: They were rea11y they were really one meeting that adjourned to another, because some people had to go and some people contjnued the discussion. I thi nk that's what happened. THE CHAIRMAN: As best you can te1l us, what did you say to Secretary Perry, what did he say jn response vis-a-vis that second meeting in the Ward Room? A['4BASSADOR SONDLAND: I thi nk we both recalled that 24 there were two meetings or one meeting that moved location, 25 and l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't remember the rest of the conversation. I mean, 50 I again, my goal in calling Secretary Perry was to find out if 2 any J completely f orgotten about bad meet'ing, bad words. And he 4 sai of the things that I'd read in the media were if I d, no, he di dn't remember. THE CHAIRMAN: And 5 you don't recall anythi ng else, any 6 of the particulars of your discussion with Secretary Perry 7 about the Ward Room, only that you did djscuss it? AI'4BASSAD0R 8 9 l0 was l5 That we did d'iscuss i t and that i t Congressman. BY I'4R. a t2 t4 SONDLAND: also a good meeting. That's all I can recall, ll l3 had were Goi ng back spinning. A GOLDMAN: to the spec'ial assi gnment, you sai d you What do you mean by that? The Ukrainians were very concerned that they weren't getting fu11 support. And one of the reasons that t7 the three of Lrs, Ambassador VoIker, Secretary Perry, and myself, sort of took it upon ourselves, along with the l8 blessing of Secretary Pompeo, to help support Ukraine during l6 20 the ambassadorial transition and so on was in order to keep the Ukrainians happy and engaged with the U.S. They were 2t getting very 19 22 23 24 25 nervous. I said that the President gave me the assignment, it was really the Secretary through the President, said that I could continue to work on the Ukraine matter. And Ambassador Bolton signed off on that sometime in So when 51 I 2 J June of a 2019. did you understand that you were supposed to take on a leadership role with Ukraine policy? A a A a A 4 5 6 When I was not taking on a teadership role. So what role I was taking on a support ro1e. ll to take on a leadership role? The Charge. He's the bilateral Ambassador. It's his fu11-time job. And then also Ambassador Volker, who's a Speci at Envoy to Ukrai ne. O There was a transition between Ambassador l2 Yovanovitch and Charge Taylor, right? 7 8 9 l0 A a l3 t4 l5 Correct. Okay. So Ambassador Yovanovitch was recalled at the end of Apri1. A a l6 t7 l8 And who was ultimately Do you reca11 that? Yes. And left toward the middle of May. And when did Charge Taylor start? 20 A I think he started shortly thereafter. I don't recalt the exact date. I wouldn't have been involved in that 2t personnet j ssue. t9 Z) Right. But there was no leadership in the embassy at the t'ime of the May 20th Presidential inauguration in 24 Ukrai 22 25 a ne, correct? A I believe that is correct. I believe there was a 52 I Charge there then. a 2 So I guess I'm just trying to understand how you, J along wjth Ambassador Volker and Secretary Perry, took on 4 promi a nent role i n Ukrai ne pol i cY? 8 A Well, I started with my trip in February to Odessa. The trip was pretty successful. The EU real1y liked it. The Ukrainians liked it. This was under President Poroshenko. And I kept that file active. I wanted to stay engaged with 9 the Ukrainians through the election. 5 6 7 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 invited to the inauguration. I was asked to go in the delegation. So I kept engaged with Ukraine as part of a broader team. And we had people from the NSC 'involved. We had Volker, Taylor, President Zelensky won. We were Perry. A lot of people were involved. a So when you said on Ukrainian television that the Presjdent gave you a special assignment, that was not true. l8 d the Pres'ident call me specifically and say, "You are assigned to Ukraine"? No. l9 Secretary Pompeo and Ambassador Bolton t7 20 2t 22 Z3 24 25 A It wasn't untrue. Di did. But I assumed that authori ty deri ves from the Presi dent. a What did Secretary Pompeo say to you? A Secretary Pompeo said continue to work on Ukrajne. O A a When? I don't remember the date. Before or after the inauguration? 53 I A 2 THE CHAIRMAN: a J 4 5 Di Continually. Keep working on Ukraine. If I could just follow up on that. d you ever have a conversati on w'ith another off i ci a1 , ei ther i n the Nati onal Securi ty Counci U. S. 1 or the State Department, in which you were challenged on under what 7 authority were you acting as in the special responsibility vis-a-vis Ukraine, in which you responded that on the 8 President' s authori ty? 6 t2 I don't reca1l a conversati on 1 i ke that, but I think that when t,{e had our conference call with Ambassador Bolton in early June of 2019, we sort of laid out all of the things we were talking about doing vis-a-vis 13 Ukrai ne unti 14 Ambassador l5 the phone he thought that was a good idea. 9 l0 ll AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: 1 there was a permanent po1 i ti there. And Ambassador Bolton ca1- appoi nted told the group on t7 I just want to make sure I understand. Is it your testimony then that, separate and apart from the l8 public statement you t9 your responsi bi 1 i ty for Ukrai ne, you never told a State 20 Department offi 2t government official that the Presjdent had given you a 22 leadership role on Ukraine? l6 23 24 25 THE CHAIRI'4AN: So ci AMBASSADOR a1 , made that my colleague referenced about nati onal securi S0NDLAND: ty offi ci al I don't reca11. I , or may other have; n, I don't reca11 THE CHAIRMAN: Well , 'if you had sai d that, were you not have. Agai . I may 54 I telling the truth when you said that? 7 I don't understand your question. THE CHAIRMAN: Did you ever represent to someone that the President of the United States directly had put you in charge in any respect of Ukraine policy? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: The President of the United States can put people in charge directly or through hjs duly 8 authori zed subordi nates, whi ch i n thi s case i s Secretary 9 Pompeo 2 J 4 5 6 10 ll t2 l3 t4 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 Ambassador Bolton. THE CHAIRMAN: is, did you ever official that the President, But my question represent to another government not the Secretary but the President, had directed that play a leadership role in Ukraine? AI'4BASSAD0R S0NDLAND: BY I4R. l5 l6 or a on it. A a A I don't remember you that. GOLDMAN: You said that Ambassador Bolton in June signed off Correct. recall about that? Wel1, thi s was Secretary Perry's cal1. He organi zed i t . I parti ci pated, along wi th several others And Secretary Perry, this was after the May White House meeting with President Trump where President Trump had directed that we speak with Mayor Giuliani, I think Secretary Perry just wanted to take stock of where we were and made a What occurred? What do you . 55 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 call to Bolton, inv'ited us all to join, and sort of reviewed and lajd out what we were planning to do in terms of doing energy work, stayi ng close to the admi ni strati on i n Ukrai ne, and va r i ous and sund ry th i ngs And Ambassador Bolton essentially said: That sounds good to me, that sounds great. And I remember, you know, thinking this was a good call, everyone's on the same page. a But that sounds like what the policy issues were . ll with Ukraine, a policy discussion, a substantive discussion about how to deal with Ukraine. A We11, flo, we were talking about who's on first, t2 which persons are on 9 l0 t4 first. And he agreed that the three of us should continue to be engaged. a And prior to that, had you had any discussions, l5 either with l3 t6 Bolton, anyone else on the National Security Councit, about your rote in Ukraine poticy, given t7 the fact that you were the l8 part of the l9 A Ambassador EU Ambassador and Ukraine is not a EU? 2l I said in my statement, Ukraine is an important part of my portfolio, as determined by those who put all of my briefing materials together from the NSC, the 22 desk, as well as the State Department. 20 23 24 25 Wel1, as In February, I went to 0dessa, Dr. Hill congratulated and praised me for my effort 'in helping support Ukraine. 5o I took that to mean the NSC was supportjve along when 56 1 the way. t4 a Did you ever have any conversations with Chief of Staf f M'ick Acti ng Chi ef of Staf f Mi ck l'4u1vaney about your involvement and engagement in Ukraine? A No, other than there was a phone call that was ori gi nal1y scheduled, I beli eve, for earl i er than when the actual call was placed. And there was a lot of back-and-forth about would the call go on, would the call not go on. And Mulvaney was on that stream of emails about whether the call would be placed or not. But I don't believe I've ever even had a formal meeting wi th Chi ef l'lulvaney. I 've seen hi m i n the Whi te House. We say he1lo, we walk by and wave. But I've never -- I don't believe I've sat down with him for a formal meeting on any l5 subj ect. l6 O A 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 1l l2 l3 t7 18 t9 to him on the phone? I may have once or twice. I don't befieve it Did you ever speak was about Ukrai ne. a Just generally, while we're talking about phone 20 conversations, how frequently do you speak with President 2t T r ump? 23 A I thi nk I 've spoken wi th Pres'ident Trump maybe five or six times since I've this is a guess 24 Ambassador. 25 Chri stmas ca11, and 22 And one of those I it recatl was had zero substance. and been an a Chrjstmas, merry And I always 57 I called him. He never called me. 4 a Did you ever discuss your -- the nature of your role in Ukraine with Ambassador Taylor? A Ambassador Taylor knew that we were involved, 5 because when he came on board and we were introduced, someone 2 3 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 13 14 t5 l6 t7 l8 t9 to tel1 that Secretary Perry, Ambassador VoIker, and myself were helping to support the Ukraine effort. In two or three conversations, he was thrilled about that. He was rea1ly happy that he had such high-level support. I'm not saying myself , because he and I are essentially peers, but I'm saying a Cabinet member and the Special Envoy. And he mentioned that on those ca11s. a We djscussed a minute ago Ambassador Yovanovitch's reca11 at the end of Apri1. Did you have any knowledge or awareness of the possibility, likelihood, or fact of her recall before she was ca11ed back to Washington? A I heard a 1ot of rumors that people were unhappy about her or with her, but beyond that, no. had briefed him him you hear? 20 a What rumors di 2t A Just that stuff I read i n the press and stuff that 22 23 24 25 I heard around my m1 d ss't on and so on. to anybody at the State Department about her status prior to her reca11? A I don't recall ever havi ng a conversati on 1 i ke a Did You speak 58 I that. 6 to her at all about the situation? I don't think so. No, I think I think the only conversatjons we had were when I was in Odessa and maybe a couple of phone conversations after that. I didn't work with her that much, but I found her to be very delightful to work 7 wi 2 5 4 5 a A Djd you speak th. t7 you do you recall that at the end of March there were some articles that came out that included some accusations related to her? A That may have been the press I was referring to. a Do you know what press you might have read it in? A I have no idea. a And you don't remember havi ng a conversati on wi th her after those allegations came out? A I don't remember. a Do you remember giving her any advice on how to 18 handle the situation? 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 l4 15 l6 a Did 19 A I don't. 20 a You don't? 2l A No. 22 a You don't remember suggesting 23 24 25 twee I don't t i n support of the Pres'ident? No, I don't remember that. A a So you that she issue a said in your opening statement that at that 59 meeting'in the White House that the Presjdent I May 23rd 2 d'irected you J rel ated 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 l4 l5 to speak to Rudy Giutianj about hjs concerns to Ukra i ne. A a He A Just what I had read for several years in the directed the delegation to Prior to that, speak were you aware of Rudy Gi u1i anj 's 'interest i n Ukrai ne matters? media. I don't know Mr. Giutiani, so whatever -- whatever I read'in the medja is what would have been my impress'ions. a Okay, 1et's focus on that. You sa'id several years. When dati ng back to when? A I don't know. I mean, things about Rudy Giuliani have been swi rl i ng around 'in the medi a f orever. I don't know when i t began or ended or a Okay. Wel1, just 2t If I could just jnterject. I'm sorry, Mr. Goldman. I just want to get further clarification. Is it your recollectjon, Ambassador, that you never advised Ambassador Yovanovitch to go big, make a public statement of fu11-throated support of the'President? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I honestly don't recall. I 22 honestly don't. l6 t7 l8 l9 20 23 THE CHAIRMAN: MR. GOLDMAN: Would i 24 that you did do that? 25 AMBASSADOR t surpri se you i f SONDLAND: Probably, yeah. someone else said 60 t I MR. G0LDMAN: Would i 2 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll tryi ng to remember important to Ukrai ne? rpr i se you I don't know that we had I'm that we ever had a career conversat'ion, because I wasn't really involved in her career. I've had career conversati ons wi th others. I don' t reca1l havi ng one wi th her. THE CHAIRMAN: Do you think it would have been appropriate for an ambassador to voice personal political support for the President rather than advocate for the issues AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: appropri ate 13 assigned BY ]"IR. t4 a No, ho, I th i nk i t ' s always more to advocate support for the country that you' re to, not for your political hat'is off. t2 l5 su GOLDMAN: Did you ever have a discussion with the former l6 Ukrainian President, Petro Poroshenko, about t7 Yovanovi tch? l8 A I thjnk we had a discussion Ambassador in general with others 22 there, and he wasn't high on her and he wasn't 1ow on her. He was just sort of "eh." a And what did you say to him about her? A I don't remember. I mean, it wasn't a remarkable LJ conversation, as t9 20 2t 24 25 a I Did you reca11. find it appropriate to have a discussion about a fe11ow State Department diplomat with a foreign 61 I leader? 2 A Foreign Ieaders complain about their ambassadors 5 all the time. That'is nothing unusual. Whenever they don't get something that they want from the United States, they always blame the ambassador. I'm sure I've been blamed for 6 many J 4 thi ngs as wel1. a 7 Going back to Rudy Giuljani, and understanding that 8 you had not had any conversations with him 9 and t0 ll t2 I believe it's your prior to was your test'imony today May 23rd, in your that you d'idn't reach out to him until August, what did you know about h'is public statements related to Ukraine in the earlier part of this year? opening statement A l3 I real1y didn't pay too much attention to his l5 pubtic statements about Ukraine. I was focused rea11y on getting President Zelensky a phone call and a meeting. t6 That's what I was focused on. That was the t4 t7 total of my effort, because I thought that would be beneficiat to the l8 Uni t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 sum ted States. a When A He President Trump told you to you and the others, I understand, everyone at that meeting, and we'11 get to that meeting in more detail but when he told you to discuss wjth Rudy Giufiani concerns about Ukraine, did you know at that point what he was referring to? didn't even he wasn't even speci fic about what he wanted us to talk to Giuliani about. He just kept 62 5 saying: Talk to Rudy, talk to Rudy. a Right, I understand that, and I understand he wasn't speci fi c. But when he said that, did you know what he 4 was I 2 talki ng about? A 5 6 I dn't, other than he sai d: di Ukrai ne i s a problem. IMaj 7 ori ty Exhi bj Was marked 8 BY MR. 9 t No. 3 for identi fication. l GOLDMAN: t2 I'm going to introduce to you now what's marked as exhibit 3, which is a New York Times article from May 9th, 2019. Why don't you take a close look at thi s and 1et me 13 know l0 ll a 'if i t looks fami 1 i ar to you . t4 A lRevi ewi ng. l 15 a Is this article familiar to l6 A No. t7 a You l8 A No. don't reca11 readi ng i t you? around thi s time? 2l just to quote a couple of passages, it says that: "Mr. Giutiani said he plans to travel to Kiev, the Ukrai ni an capita1" and by the way, this is dated May 22 9th. a It says that 23 A Right. 24 a l9 20 25 "'in the to meet wi th the ng days and wants nation's president-e1ect to urge him to pursue i nqui ri es that comi 63 5 allies of the White House contend could yield new information about two matters of intense interest to Mr. Trump. One is the ori gi n of the speci a1 counsel's i nvesti gation i nto Russia's interference in the 20L5 election. The other is the involvement of f ormer Vjce Pres jdent Joseph R. B'iden, Jr.'s 6 son i n a gas company owned by a Ukra'ini an ol i garch. " I 2 J 4 7 Then below there's a quote from Mr. Giulianj which says: l6 electjon, we're meddling in an investigat'ion, which we have a right to do." He then conti nues and says: "And thi s j sn't forei gn policy I'm asking them to do an jnvestigation that they're doing already and that other people are telling them to stop. And I 'm go'ing to gi ve them reasons why they shouldn' t stop i t because the informatjon will be very, very helpful to my client, and may turn out to be helpful to my government." Do you know who he's referring to when he says "my t7 client"? 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l8 l9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 "We're not meddling A a A in an No i dea. You have no i dea? I mean, I assume 'i t's the President i f he's the President's lawyer, but I have no idea. 0 A a You knew he was I t the President's lawyer? s art'ic1e unti 1 you That's not what I asked. You knew he was the haven' President's lawyer? seen thi 64 I 2 J 4 A I knew he was the President's lawyer. a 0n the next page, it says that: "He said his ef f orts i n Ukrai ne have the f u11 support of [",lr. Trump. He declined to say specifically whether he had briefed him on 6 the planned meeting with Mr. Zelensky, but added, quote, basically knows what I'm do'ing, sure, as his 1awyer, "' 7 unquote. 5 8 9 So you were aware, of course, that Mr. Giuliani was Mr. Trump's personal lawyer, right? l5 A Based on press reports, yes. The President has never told me: Mr . Gi ul i ani i s my lawyer O 0kay. A Okay? a Have you ever A And Mr. Giuliani has never told me he was the l6 President's lawyer directly. l0 ll t2 l3 t4 'He . 2t a Right. But Mr. Gjuliani has a habi t of speaki ng a 1ot in the media A Ri ght. and sayi ng repeatedly that he's the Presi dent's a lawyer. You've seen even i f you haven't had a direct 22 conversati on, you' re aware that t7 l8 t9 20 A 24 25 I'm generally aware that that's what he's been say'ing, correct. a 0kay. And so you di dn't read thi s arti c1e, you 65 4 d. Is that ri ght? A Cor rect. a After Mr. Trump and were you aware of any other publ i c statements that Mr. G'iul i ani had been sayi ng about 5 Ukrai ne I 2 J 6 7 8 sai A a A a No. in connection to any of these investigations? No. t7 just so we're ctear, Ukraine took on a significant part of your portfof io. Is that right? A No. As I sa'id, I have 28 countries that I'm dealing with in the EU. I'm dealing with Venezuela. I'm deal i ng wi th I ran. I 'm deal i ng wi th Georg'ia. Ukrai ne was a small pi ece of it. But I wanted to stay engaged wi th Ukra'ine because I thought 'i t was i mportant. a All ri ght. I won't characterize i t. How would you characterize your role in Ukraine policy for the State l8 Depa r tmen t? 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 l9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 A So to those who are charged wi th dealing with 'it on a futl-time basis. a 0kay. And as someone who's trying to be hetpfully support'ive, would you say that i t's part of your role to understand what is going on with U.5. policy and the public -- in the public med'ia about Ukraine? A Probably, but I can' t read everythi ng. i can't As helpful support 66 1 I've got, as I said, I have 28 countries. I think in your opening statement you said that was central to your ambassadorial responsibiiities, read everything. a 2 3 Ukrai ne 4 right? 5 A No, I think I said -- 1et me refer to my statement. 6 a You can go 7 8 9 l0 to page 3. It's the fifth line from the bottom. of my overall portfolio, i t was nevertheless central to my ambassadori al responsi bi lj ti es. " "Whi A 1e a sma11 part Yeah. l3 so, given that 'it's a central role for your ambassador responsibilities, you didn't think jt was important to understand what the United States media was t4 sayi ng about Ukra'ine? ll t2 O And A l5 I said, my objective was to get President a meeting at the White House. That was my As l6 Zelensky t7 objective. a l8 That wasn't my question. My question was, did you 20 of your central responsi bi 1 i ti es over Ukrai ne to be aware of what press reports i n the Un'ited 2t States media were saying about Ukraine policy? l9 thi nk i t was part 23 I think it was more the job of the Charge or the Ambassador to Ukraine and the Special Envoy. You had two 24 f u11- 22 25 A ti a me people on Ukra'ine. 0kay. So what was so your only objective was to 67 I get a meeting. You didn't care about what other people 2 sayi ng? J A were 4 to get a meeting, because I thought that that would begin to solidify the relationship 5 between Ukraine and the United States, whjch would then help 6 me 7 8 9 My objective was bring the EU to the tab1e, because my number one responsibility is our relationship with the European Union. a Alt ri ght. So let's assume that you didn't know anything about what Rudy Giulianj was saying before May 23rd, the meeting at the Whjte House. After President l0 when you had ll Trump suggested t2 l3 l4 l5 l6 t7 that you and Ambassador Volker and Secretary Perry speak to Rudy Gi ul i an'i about h j s concerns 'in Ukra j ne, did you do anything to figure out what those concerns were? A No. I 1et the others work on it and I went back things, because Volker and Perry were the ones who reached out to Giuliani. a Okay. That wasn't my questi on. My questi on i s not and worked on other 24 to l4r. Giulianj. My question is whether you took'it upon yourself in any way to figure out what Rudy Gjuliani's concerns abou't Ukraine were. A I got the informat'ion through Ambassador Volker, and he said that Mr. G'iuljani was concerned about corruption, which we were also concerned about. 5o it didn't parti cularly rai se any i nteresti ng flags wi th me. It was 25 consistent with what our concern l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 whether you reached out was. 68 a I 2 didn't do a Google search for So you A No. 4 o You di 5 A No. 6 a What's that? 7 A I 8 a Whether you followed him l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2l 22 to 25 dn' t look at Rudy Gi uI i ani ' s Twi tter feed? I never followed Rudy Giuliani. never followed Rudy Gi ul i ani . or not, you never looked see what he was saying on Twitter? A a No. You never looked at one of his numerous television appearances where he addressed Ukraine? I don't recal1. I honestly don't recal1. I we had our meeting. They went off to deal wjth Gi utj ani . I went back to doi ng my thi ng. a Okay. I understand you went back to doing your thing and I understand that you may not have been the point person wi th Mr. Gi u1i anj , but i t seems pretty i ncredi b1e that given that the President directed you guys, the three of yotl, to address Mr. Giuliani's concerns, that you did nothing to figure out what those concerns are. Is that your testimony? MR. LUSKIN: No, it's not his testimony. A wasn't BY ]'4R. 23 24 Giutiani Ukrai ne? J 9 Rudy a A We11, GOLDI'4AN: I'm ask'ing the question. Is that accurate? Repeat your statement again. 69 I a You testified that President Trump you testified l3 in your opening statement that President Trump directed you and Secretary Perry and Ambassador Volker at the meeting in I don't the White House on May 23rd to consult with remember the exact language, we can find jt but to consult with Mr. Rudy Gjuliani about his concerns related to Ukraine. A That wasn't my testimony. My testimony was he said: Talk to Rudy. a Let's fi nd i t. THE CHAIRNAN: If I could fol1ow up while counsel is looking for that reference, I just want to make sure that I understand the testimony. You've said that Secretary Pompeo gave you this responsjbility for Ukraine, not the President t4 but Secretary Pompeo, correct? 2 a J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 t9 Correct. And Ambassador Bolton. THE CHAIRMAN: And you said that the President asked you to make sure that you sati sf ied 14r. G'iul j ani 's concerns about Ukraine, or to reach out to Giuliani in the context of your work with Ukraine, or a call or meeting between the two 20 Presi dents. l5 l6 t7 l8 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 22 No. tnlhat the President said was the President was railing about Ukraine in the meeting at the 23 White House, and he was going on and on and on about his 24 di ssat'isf acti on wi th Ukrai 25 with it anymore. 2T AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: And he ne. He di dn ' t even want basically waved and said: to deal Go talk 70 I to Rudy, he knows all about Ukraine. THE CHAIRMAN: 2 Okay. So the President di rects you to 8 talk to Rudy Gi u1 i ani . And you have thi s responsi bi 1 i ty of Ukrai ne. The Presi dent di rects you to talk to Rudy Gi u1 i ani And it's your testjmony here today that you never looked at any of his TV appearances, you never read any of the articles, you never saw any of the media that Rudy Giuliani did in which Rudy Giuliani talked about his interest and the 9 Presi J 4 5 6 7 l0 dent's i nterest i n an i nvesti gati on i nto the B'idens and this energy company that Joe Biden's son worked for. You ll never saw any t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 18 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 of AMBASSADOR . that? SONDLAND: Not then. Very much later, but not then. t's your testimony, I thi nk, from your opening statement and what you said just now, that up until the moment you read the call record in September you were completely oblivious to Rudy Gjuliani's interest in Buri sma because i t i nvolved the Bi dens? AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: I became aware of his interest in Burisma sometime'in the intervening period, but I never made the connection between Burisma and the Bidens until the very end. That i s my testimony. I heard the word "Buri sma, " but I didn't understand that Biden and Burisma were connected. THE CHAIRMAN: You just thought that Mr. Giuliani or the President were interested in Burisma because they were THE CHAIRMAN: So i 71 I interested in a particular energy 2 do with the Bidens? AI"IBASSADOR J 4 and that SONDLAND: Well was another company 5 MR. G0LDMAN: 6 AMBASSADOR Sorry, , company having Naf that nothing to togaz was also menti oned, was ment'ioned. who mentioned Naftogaz? S0NDLAND: I think that Naftogaz has been on 7 the table since I started working on Ukrajne. People are 8 always talking about the problems wjth Naftogaz. l0 but Mr. Giuliani was talking about Buri sma and the Bidens. And i t's your testimony today you ll had no idea t2 complete l3 September? 9 THE CHAIRMAN: We11, t4 to Burisma, it came as a revelation when you read the call record jn of any Biden connection AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: I don't reca1l when I fi na11y the light finally went on that Burisma and the l5 when l6 were connected, but Bjdens 22 certainly not early on at all. I can't te11 you the day that finally I said, oh, Burisma equals Biden. I have no idea when that was. THE CHAIRMAN: But I think you suggested in your opening statement that you didn't know until you read the calt record, and jt was an epiphany that the President wasn't simply interested in this energy company which, by the 23 way, he doesn't mention in the 24 rea11y interested'in an investigat'ion involving the Bidens. t7 l8 l9 20 2l 25 AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: No, call record but he was I think I said that I didn't 72 1 know what was i n the call unt'i1 I saw the call record. I 2 no idea that he had brought up the Bidens J saw had in the call unt'i1 I the call report. THE CHAIRMAN: 4 But I think you were also suggesting that 6 until you read that call record and correct me if I'm wrong -- until you read that call record, you never put two 7 and two together 8 correct? 5 9 l0 ll that actually Burisma involved the Bidens, I don't recal1 when I finally put it together. I don't reca11 what the date was or the place was or the time was. I don't reca11. AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: THE CHAIRMAN: t2 But when you were interacting with the 13 Ukrainians and seeking an investigation involving Burisma, t4 di l5 d you know then that the real i nterest was the B'idens? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I was seeking a press statement get the meeting for Zelensky to the White l6 that t7 House. That' s all I was seeki ng. I wasn' t seeki ng any l8 investigation. t9 we could THE CHAIRMAN: And my question seeking 2t Bi dens and Bu r i sma? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: No. would not endorse investigating the 24 endorse i nvesti gati ng - THE CHAIRMAN: So between the not I Bidens. I would not Because 23 25 js, at the time you were that, did you know of the connection 20 22 so you completely mi I would ssed all the Gi u1 i ani 73 I 2 3 4 all the public debate about the President's interest and Giutiani's interest in the Bidens, you missed a1t of that? AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: Yeah. It wasn't of concern to me. media appearances and G0LDMAN: 5 1"1R. 6 though, ri ght? At some point you did AMBASSADOR 8 MR. GOLDMAN: And now, l0 that that's the connection, SONDLAND: Yeah. 7 9 make what Rudy in retrospect, you understand Giuliani ANBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: was advocating for? Yeah, I do. t4 I ask you this then. Had you known at the time that the interest in an investigation involving Buri sma was really an i nterest i n i nvesti gati ng the Bidens, would you have pressed the Ukrainjans to do that l5 invest'igation? 1l t2 l3 THE CHAIRMAN: Can SONDLAND: t6 AMBASSADOR t7 THE CHAIRMAN: Your answer was no? l8 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: No. IMajority Exhibit No. 4 Was marked for identi fication. l9 20 2t 22 /..) 24 25 NO. BY MR. l GOLDI,IAN: a I just want to enter for the record exhibit 4, which js some tweets. These are some tweets from Rudy Giuliani. There's one on March 22nd where Rudy Gjuljani that should pay attention to somebody for an analysis of says some 74 2 real collusi on between Hi 11ary, Kerry, and Bi den people colluding with Ukrainian operatives to make money and affect J 2015 electi on. 1 7 is investigating Hi 11ary campai gn and DNC consp'i racy wi th forei gn operati ves including Ukrainian and others to affect 2016 election. " May 2nd, quote: "Biden conflicts are too apparent to be 8 ignored and should be investigated quickly 9 exped'itious1y." 4 5 6 April 23rd, quote: "Now Ukraine and ll L0th, quote: "Explain to me why Biden shouldn't be investigated if his son got millions from a Russjan loving t2 crook Ukrainian oligarch while he was VP and point man in l3 Ukraine." It l0 May Are you aware t4 l5 l6 t7 18 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 goes on. i n any way i n the of any evidence 201-5 electi that Ukraine was involved on? A I have no independent basis to know that, no. a What did President Trump, other than directing you three to speak to Mr. Giutian'i about his, Mr. Gjul jani's, concerns related to Ukraine, what else did President Trump say at that May 23rd Oval Off ice meeting about Ukraine? A He sort of went on and on and on about how Ukrai ne is a disaster and they're bad people. And we were actually quite discouraged with the meeting, because we were quite excited about the new President, the new administration, the new team, and we were excited to share our findings with hjm, 75 didn't want to hear about it. I and he 2 meeti ng short. 3 a Di d he menti on anythi ng about 5 in the 2015 election? A I think he said: 6 kept saying that over and over. 4 And he They Ukraj sort of cut the ne's i nvolvement tried to take me down. He 2t a In connection to the 2015 election? A Probably, yeah. a That was what your understanding was? A That was my understanding, yeah. a What was the upshot from that meeting other than h j m telf ing you to go speak to Gi ul i an'i? A I think, as my statement said, it was sort of a bad meeting, inconclusive. We didn't get a clear signal from him that he would invite Zelensky to the White House, that he would call Zelensky. It was just talk to Rudy and I'm busy. And, you know, we had come all the way to brief hjm about it and i t was sort of di sappoi nti ng. a 5o I think you said in your opening statement that you understood that jn order to arrange this meeting with the Whi te House you had to somehow sati sfy Mr. Gi u1 i ani 's 22 concerns. 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 23 24 25 A a Was that your takeaway? That was the takeaway, yeah. did -- you said you weren't the point person with Mr. Giuliani, but did Secretary Perry or Ambassador And so 76 I 2 ) Volker reach out to Mr. Giuliani after that meeting? A I believe they di d. I bel i eve Secretary Perry was the first one, because he knew him well. long after that meeting, 4 a How 5 A I don't know. 6 7 8 9 l0 l3 you know? of what they discussed? I just knew in general that they were talking, but, A again, I was preoccupied with other matters. I sort of ft i tted in and ffitted out of the Ukraine fi1e as the need, a Did you get a summary you know, arose. ll t2 do a Di d you read Sec reta ry Street Journal yesterday? A Yeah, I d'id, I think. a t4 And was he Pe r ry ' s summa ry i n The Wal 1 Yeah. in that article, he sajd that Mr. t7 that he I thlnk he blames Ukraine for something related to the meant the Steele dossier; he said Ukraine had Hillary l8 Ct i l5 l6 t9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 Giuliani specifically mentioned three concerns, server; and made up evi dence and Ukrai ne made up ev j dence to use agai nst Paul ["lanaf ort. nton's ema'i1 that in the article. You saw that in the article. Did that refresh your recollection as to what Secretary Perry relayed to you about hi s conversati on wi th Rudy Gi u1 i ani A I beljeve that the best of my recollection is that, through Ambassador Volker or through Perry I don't A a I saw ? 77 l0 I got the information was that Rudy had some bad jssues with Ukraine, and until Rudy was satisfied the Presi dent wasn't goi ng to change hi s mi nd. a D'id he explai n to you what those concerns were related to Ukraine? A Probably the thi ngs i n the arti cle. I don't reca1l exactly. There were so many conversati ons go'ing on by so many people at the time, it was unbelievable. a 0kay. But, Ambassador Sondland, this is not a trivial matter. You said that you were di rected you sajd l1 you wanted a White House meeting t2 correct? I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 13 l4 15 remember where A a A a Cor with President Zelensky, rect. Because you supported President Zelensky? Correct. 23 that topic with the President, he said that, effectively, in order to get that, you need to assuage Rudy Giutianj's concerns. So Secretary Perry spoke to Rudy Gi uli ani ? A Yes. a Is that a yes? A 0h, I'm sorry. Yes. Thank you. a So Secretary Perry spoke to Rudy Giuliani about hjs 24 concerns, ri ght? l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 25 A And when you broached Yes. 78 2 with Secretary Perry about his conversation with Rudy Giuliani about Rudy 5 Gi u1 i I 4 a And you then had a conversation 's concerns, correct? A We11, when I say there were a lot of ani conversations, 5 there were conversations going on between Secretary Perry 6 Ambassador 7 me and 8 they were handling the 9 Giuliani. Volker, between Ambassador VoIker and me, Secretary Perry, and sometimes the three initiat outreach and between of us. And and issues with t2 I totally understand that. What I'm trying to understand is what information came back to you from either Ambassador Volker or Secretary Perry about Mr. Gj ul i ani 's l3 concerns? l0 ll t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 a A a A That he was concerned about corruption. a A a A From Secretary Perry? That he was concerned broadly about corruption? corruption. the word "corruption" initially. August a A a Never heard anything but Broadly about From one of them. I don't reca11 who. OkaY. Because, again, of I haven't spoken to Giul some t'ime. you're then So I'm getting it second- or thirdhand. So i understand that. jani unt'i1 79 A a 1 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 just trying to figure out what and when you understood about Rudy Gi u1i an'i 's concerns whi ch the President directed you to address. So it would seem to me and correct me if I'm wrong that if the President of the United States directs you to do something'in order to get something that you want to get done for policy reasons, that you might want to figure out what those concerns are. And so I'm trying to understand to what l3 t4 We're extent you learned what those concerns are? ll t2 Yeah. A The "you" i s the a I collective you. It's the three of us. understand that. You're the one testifying here today, so we are asking what your understanding is. l7 A I wasn't on first in that conversation. a That's not the questi on. I 'm not sayi ng that you got j t di rectly f rom Rudy Gi u1i an'i . I 'm aski ng you whether l8 you understood from e'ither Secretary Perry or Ambassador t9 Volker what the concerns that the President directed you to 20 address l5 l6 of . Gi u1i ani were, what those concerns were. I told you, corrupti on. That's all I heard. That's all you heard? That's alt I heard. l'lr 24 A a A O 25 MR. LUSKIN: Excuse me. 2t 22 23 So when Secretary Perry describes these 80 1 2 lDi scussj on AMBASSADOR 4 SONDLAND: BY MR. J O off the record. l I'm sorry, go ahead. GOLDMAN: So when Secretary Perry describes these three 6 things to The WaI1 Street Journal, you're saying that he did not relay with any specificity to you, one of the three 7 people 5 8 9 to look into this? My counsel has clari f ied. I d'idn't understand your that the President A asked questi on. l3 It started wi th corrupti on. Then i t was Buri sma and 2016 election. And then at some point in the continuum, late i n the game , I connec ted Bu r i sma wi th B'i den a Okay. So when did you connect -- when did you t4 learn about Burisma and l0 ll t2 . 20L6? 20 I believe that was somewhere in the middte. In other words, well af ter the l'lay 23rd meeting, but sometime they kept putting probably in JuIy-August, where it start more cond'i tions on this meeting, and that's when I began to learn i t. a A11 ri ght. Ri ght. I guess the questi on i s, who i s 2t "they" that put these conditions l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 22 23 24 25 A on It must have been Gi uli ani , because I wasn't talking to the President about it. So I was hearing this all from Volker and Perry and Perry's chief of staff , who was heavily involved jn this whole A 81 1 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 l4 l5 16 t7 l8 t9 20 21 22 23 24 25 a A a And who's Br i an McCormack. And did you ever have conversations wjth 14ulvaney about A a Perry's chi ef of staff? l4lck thi s meeti ng? I don't believe I did. A11 right. After that May 23rd meeting, did the Presjdent ultimately send a letter to President Zelensky? A Yeah. That was the funny part, is that he was railing about the problems with Ukraine'in our meeting, but I think shortly after that he sent essentially an uncondit'iona1 invitation to President Zelensky to come visit him at the Whi te House, subj ect only to schedul i ng. a Did you have any role in drafting that letter? A None. I got a copy of it after it was sent. I was pleased to see i t, though. a And you didn't have any djscussions with anyone about pushing for that letter? A I wanted the letter to be sent, but I didn't negoti ate i t. I j ust sai d, 1et's get a letter out. a Who did you say that to? A I don't remember. a Someone at the Whi te House? A Probably Volker or Perry. a Do you know someone named Kash Patel? A Who? 82 0 A I 2 Kash Patel. I don't reca11 the name. 6 I just for clarification. So you had no hand i n drafti ng, edi ti ng the i nvi tatjon to the Ukrai ne Presi dent for a vi si t? AI'4BASSADOR SONDLAND: Not to the best of my 7 recollecti on, 3 4 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Can THE CHAIRMAN: Made 8 9 l0 ll l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 S0NDLAND: BY MR. a Pres'ident A l5 t7 to that in any that. I reca11 seeing it after it had already gone out for the first time. AMBASSADOR l3 l6 no proposed changes way? t2 t4 no. Was a No, I don't reca11 GOLDMAN: draft of that letter presented to at the May 23rd meeting? I di dn't present i t. I don't know i f the anyone else did. a I didn't ask A I don't know. a You don't remember -A I don't remember. a letter being discussed? a A I don't remember, no. I do remember, once the letter came out, then it was -- everyone was fervently trying to negotiate a date, which we never were able to nail down. I don't know if it was sent by mail or how it was delivered. 83 a Do you recal1 having a conference call around June 2 28th with Ambassador Volker, Ambassador Taylor, and Secretary J Perry, and after you spoke to them you 4 President Zelensky? A 5 6 I'm not saying it didn't occur. I don't remember the ca11, though. a 7 8 may have patched in You wouldn't remember having a conversati on wi th Presi dent Zelensky? A t4 I've had several conversations with him, and I speak w'i th a 1ot of foreign leaders from a Iot of countries It wasn't something that I can remember. whether you a So you don't remember that you encouraged President Zelensky to i ni ti ate any i nvesti gati ons in order to get the White House meeting on that conference t5 call? 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t6 t7 l8 l9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 A I th'ink the only di scussi on that I had i n negotiating a public statement was to get a Burjsma, 2015 this was the language that was being proposed by Giuliani. a This is in August, right? A I think so. Again, I don't remember, because there were so many things flying around, but when they kept adding the initial draft of a press retease had no conditions. It just said corruption, per se. a But we're not talking about August, right? And at that point, you were discussing some sort of statement that 84 I Presjdent Zelensky would issue? A 2 3 6 7 8 it got shelved. It never happened. O 4 5 That he would issue, and then Okay. And Mr. Gi u1 i ani was i nvolved j n the drafting of that statement? A I think Mr. Giuliani was the one giving the input as to what the President wanted in the statement. a And what did Mr. Giuljani add that the Presjdent 9 wanted? l0 A He wanted Burisma and 2015 election mentioned in ll the statement. And I don't believe the Ukrainians t2 prepared to do that. MR. GOLDMAN: I believe our time is uP, so we'11 yield l3 t4 to the mi nor i ty. MR. CASTOR: l5 l6 t7 l8 I'm going to 20 THE CHAIRMAN: A11 23 24 25 exhibit of the May like a short break before? Yes, why don't we take a 5- or L0-minute break. THE CHAIRMAN: Would lRecess. l 22 make an 29th letter. t9 2t were One hour you ri ght. Let's go back on the record. to the mi nori ty. IMi nori ty Exhi bi t No. 5 for identi fication. l MR. CASTOR: I'm going to mark exhibit 5. 1t's the letter May 29th from the President. Was marked 85 1 2 Do you guys need 5 6 7 8 copy? MR. G0LDMAN: No, we have copies. BY MR. CASTOR: J 4 a a Before I get jnto this letter, there was some frustration about whether you had seen that New York Times arti c1e. I mean, there's a lot of med'ia nowadays. You know, have you seen every article, every story that references Rudy Giuliani since you began your post? ll No. I mean, I have so many cables and other things to read, I just don't have time. a And you're not watching TV, U.5. TV at night when t2 you're i n Brussels? 9 l0 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 A A a Someti mes. Okay. So have you seen Rudy Gi u1i know, discuss these issues on A a I watch anl on you TV? HB0. 0kaY. l9 Hill article at the end of March where Giuliani was where Lutsenko and so forth was 20 di scussed? l8 2t 22 23 Did you see the John Solomon A remember a I think someone forwarded it to me, but I don't the contents. This May 29th letter, could you walk us through 24 what happened between the May 23rd meeting with the President 25 and then how we got to this letter, to the extent you've got 86 I personal knowledge? A 2 The letter was a little confounding to me, because 4 it was completely inconsistent with the President's attitude at the t'lay 23rd meeti ng, and then all of a sudden thi s letter 5 comes out. a J a 6 7 So you didn't have a role in drafting or editing i t? l0 A I don't remember having any role other than wanti ng the letter to happen. But, actua11y, I remember getti ng the on the State letter as i t was forwarded to me on the Whi te 1l Department emai 1. 8 9 22 a Was there a draft at the May 23rd meeting that was shown to the President? A We never had any paperwork that I remember at the May 23rd meeting. It was just an oral meeting. Yeah. a So you don't remember the President looking at a draft letter? A Not in front of me. a 0r giving feedback about a draft letter? A No, no. He didn't seem to want to do anything with Ukraine at the May 23rd meeting. a 0kay. The penult'imate paragraph, the last sentence /.5 talks about a White House meeting. t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 l9 20 2t 24 25 A a Ri ght. So when you saw this letter, you were 87 I A a I was happy. We have a meeting. 2t of the relevant players on the staff 1eve1 about how th'is letter came to be? A No. All i did was I think tried to get my team at the mission and I don't remember who I would have tasked to start working on getting the meeting scheduled. a And stepping back to the May 23rd meeting, how djd that come to get scheduled? A I think that either Rick Perry or I reached out to someone at the NSC saying: Doesn't the President want a briefing about the inauguration? And I think I think it was Perry, if I recall correctly, that got it nailed down. a Through NSC? A Probably. They do most of the scheduling. Yeah. a And you were invited to participate? A I was yeah, the whole delegation was, although I don' t thi nk Mr . Vi ndman j oi ned us i n the meeti ng. a Why not? A I don ' t know. He wasn ' t 'i n the room. a Okay. Who was jn the room, to the best of your 22 recollection? 23 A 2 a J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 Did you have any conversations with any Volker, Perry, myself, Ron Johnson. 24 don't recall if it 25 people coming and was Bo1 going. ton, MuIvaney. And then I There were several The delegation was seated jn front 88 6 sitting behind us on the couch and people kept comi ng 'in and out. So I don't remember who all was a It might be good if you just walk us through from beginning to end what you do remember from that meeting, what time of the day it was, how long it lasted, just whatever you 7 can of the President's desk, 2 J 4 5 8 9 and people were remember. A I mean, all I remember was we were all rea1ly excited about how optimistic we were about the future of 22 after having met with Zelensky and some of his team in Kyiv. And we wanted to share that excitement with the President, and he didn't want to hear about it. So I was pretty frustrated. I was ki nd of pi ssed, actua1ly. a What time of the day was the meeting? A I don't remember. I don't know. a And how long did it last? A Pretty short. Fi fteen mi nutes, 20 mi nutes maybe. a Who from the NSC was there? A Bolton might have been there. I just don't remember. I know Vindman wasn't there, because I asked where's Vindman, because I had seen him in the White House. But somebody said he's not coming to the meeting. I don't 23 know why. l0 ll t2 t3 l4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 24 25 Ukraine cut out of Ukraine policy at any point in time or do you think he may have just had a conflict? a Was Vindman 89 I A I 2 a Your J i nvolvi ng have no total A Very. 5 a So we had September A 7 8 on the 20 have no idea. communications wi th the President these i ssues have been 4 6 idea. I the May 23rd 1 i mi ted, cor meeting. 26th. a l0 A ll a t2 A l3 a Ri t4 A I think I cal1ed of May? I J mean of u1y. J uIy. ght. said: I'm headed to and Ambassador Volker . him and 15 to l6 there anything you t7 didn't want to discuss j t. No, go. l8 goi ng. l9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 We had the 9th telephone ca11. Have there been other -I think I talked to him just before I left for Kyiv when was the Kyiv meeting, on the 25th or 6th 9 meet rect? with President Zelensky You know, he want me to share? was he'd just And he j ust I don't been down why Kyiv Is he you're on Ukraine. It was 1i ke a nonsubstantive ca11. a 0kay. So on the July 25th caI1, to talk about Burisma A No. a A 2016 No. he di dn't ask you 90 1 a A a the Bi dens, anythi ng? 4 No. Really a short call 0kay. So we have the that's three meetings or ca11s you can remember directly with the President on these 5 i ssues? 2 3 . 2t A I thi nk that's ri ght. I thi nk that's ri ght. a At the May 23rd meeting, when the President said go talk to what did he say, go talk to Rudy or A He didn't even say go talk. He just sajd: Talk to Rudy. It was sort of ljke I don't want to talk about this. a So did you take that as I mean, it's been described variously as an order or an instruction. Was he giving an order or an instruction or was he just trying to A l{y impression was that if we never called Rudy and just left it alone that nothing would happen with Ukraine, in terms of all of the things we wanted to have happen. So I didn't take it as an order as much as an indication that if he was going to have his mind changed, that was the path. That's how I interpreted talk to Rudy. a Okay. And duri ng that meeti ng, the Presi dent never mentioned any of these controversial topics, such as opening 22 i nvesti gati ons? 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 13 t4 15 t6 t7 l8 t9 20 23 A He mentioned 24 he mentioned the 2016 25 menti oned, yeah. that they tried to take me down, and election. That's the only thing he 91 2 a 0kay. And he d'idn't menti on that he had an interest, a personal interest in Ukraine opening J j nvesti gati ons? I 4 5 At the meeting, flo, I don't believe he did. I don't recal1 him mentioning that he wanted something done. A t2 didn't want to talk about it at all. a And at that point in time did you have any knowledge that that's what Rudy Giuliani was pushing for? A No, because you mean during the meeting? a During the meeting. We11, you know, subseqLient, when the President sa'id go talk to Rudy Giulian j, did you know at that point in time, from Ambassador Volker or some t3 other people, that t4 a11eged1y? 6 7 8 9 l0 1l l5 l6 He A Not Rudy Gi u1 i ani was pushi ng i nvesti gati ons, of the time of the meeting, 0o, I didn't. I don't remember. I don't remember that. A11 I remember was as t9 incredibiy frustrated that we couldn't have a dialogue wi th the President about our fi ndi ngs. Did you know jf 14r . Gi uI i ani had an agenda at that a 20 poi nt? 2t A 22 a l7 l8 23 bei ng goi ng to I didn't. 5o go talk to Rudy, you d'idn' t hear at that poi nt? 24 A Correct. 25 a When know what you were did you first get an inkljng of what Mr. 92 Gi u1 i ani was i nterested A 2 You know, i n? this whole thing was sort of a continuum, 5 starting at the May 23rd meeting, ending up at the end of the line when the transcript of the call came out. And as i said to counsel,'it started as tatk to Rudy, then others talk to 6 Rudy. Corruption was mentioned. J 4 l0 I can't nail down the dates then let's get the Ukrainians to give a statement about corruption. And then, no, corruption isn't enough, we need to talk about the 2015 election and the ll Buri sma i nvesti gations. 7 8 9 Then, as time went And t2 it on and, again, was always described to me as ongoing l3 'investigations that had been stopped by the previous t4 administratjon and they wanted them started up again. That's l5 how l6 it was always described. And then f inally at some po'int i made the Biden-Burisma I can't when, what dates, but that's kind t7 connection, and then the transcript was released. 5o l8 te11 you on that continuum 20 of what happened. a Okay. Do you know if 2t things had communications wjth the Ukrainians about opening 19 22 23 24 25 anybody on meritless investigation for political A I don't reca11 ever heari ng the U.S. side of purposes? that, no. a 93 I [1].:46 a.m.l BY I{R. 2 3 a CASTOR: Okay. So to the extent 4 communicating wi th Ukrain'ian 5 have been? U. S. offi ci als officials, like were who would that 7 It would have been the Charge. It would have been Ambassador Volker. It would have been l'lr. Giuliani, I think 8 had some di rect communication. 6 A l8 official. Okay. 5o you' re not okay. And then I was involved during the negotiations of the press statement. a Okay. So you never had communications with Ukrainian officials about opening any investigations? A No. l{y communi cati ons wi th Ukrai ni an of f i ci a1s had to do with the press statement. a OkaY. A Had to do wjth the language of the press statement. a 0kay. And to your knowledge, did Ambassador Volker l9 have any communicat'ions about opening actual investigatjons? 9 l0 ll r2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 20 2t 22 23 24 25 a A A Wel1, he wasn't a U.5. I don't I don't recall ever heari ng about hjm say that. a So he never related that to you? A No, not to me that, I remember. a 5o what Mr. Volker's i nvolvement j n thj s simi lar yours in that it was zeroed jn on a statement? to 94 5 Well, first of all, his i nvolvement was thi s i s with 100 percent of his portfolio He was responsible for Ukra i ne along with the Ambassador to Ukraine. So he was worki ng on Ukraine, I assume, 5 days'a week,8, 10 hours a day. So I don't know what he was doing day jn and day out on 6 Ukraine. 7 I I 2 J 4 A I was again popping jn and out trying to help when could. l0 a Okay. In your discussions with Mr. Volker, did you know 'if he had a belief that ["1r. Giuliani was amplifying a negative narrat'ive, that he believed Mr. Giuf iani's views ll were i naccurate? 8 9 t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 l9 20 2t 22 ./.) 24 25 A Yeah, I don't understand that question. What do you mean by that? a A a A a wi th did he communicate to you In your Ri communi cati ons Mr . Volker - - ght. Yes. that he di d not eve Gi u1 i I can speculate here. be1 i ani ' s vi ews of these issues was legitimate? A a A I think Okay. I th j nk he was f rustrated by any i mped'iment to getting the meeting for Zelensky, particularly since the President had essentially unconditionally'invited Zelensky to i n thi s i nvi tati on, come to the Whi te House i n that 95 I 2 subject only to scheduling, so why are we talking about other putting more ornaments on J speculation. 4 a 5 Was Ambassador communjcating the tree. That's my Volker enthusiast'ic about with Mr. Giuliani? 1l A I don't think so. a Okay. So Mr. Gi ul i ani 's i nvolvement here was a negative. Is that fai r to say? A We11, I think I've said in my statement that we would have all preferred to have the State Department handle th'is whole matter and not involve people outside of the State t2 Department, because you 6 7 8 9 10 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 a don't But di d you ever comm'iserate Volker, we've got to talk to A a know what I w they're doing. j th Ambassador Rudy? may have. And do you know if he related something similar to, to talk to Rudy? A I think that was the I think that was the general impression of anyone who had to deal with Mayor Gi ul i ani on thi s matter because i t's not consi stent wi th the way business is normally done. a Okay. So nobody was enthusi astj c about partneri ng wi th Rudy Gj u1 i ani on thi s i ssue? A Not that I can recal1. a 0kay. And to the extent flr. Giuljani was pushing we have 96 1 2 J some Sort of investigation into Ukraine, yourself , Volker, and other U.S. officials were not party to that? A Sounds ri ght. a statement? We just wanted a statement to get the meeting. And the statement was something along the lines to 6 a A a 7 demonstrate 8 corner on corruption. 4 5 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 Ambassador A a You were looking towards that the Ukra'ini ans were tryi ng to turn the Correct. And that wasn't good enough at fi rst and apparently to i nvolve the Buri sma and the f urther deta'i1 of Burisma in 2016. A Correct. a In your discussions with the Ukrajnians did you get in your own personal knowledge a sense that they felt did you get a sense that they felt that they would actually going to be opening up any investigations or were they simply just trying to get you a statement? A I would be speculating. They didn't seem offended by the ask, but I think they wanted their meeting at the Whi te House. a Okay. And the idea that Ukraine has some struggles with corruption is not a novel concept, right? A No. As I said in my statement, that was raised by the Ukrainians to me 4 days after I became an ambassador in i t had 97 mid-'18, that they have a'-- they said: 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 a A campai a t7 a A t4 l8 l9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 And U.S. of hi officials that correct? A I certainly Taylor. l3 That was one s, as I understand i t, one of hi gn platforms. l6 t2 And President Zelensky was elected overwhelmingly and he campaigned on cleaning things Up, right? l5 ll a corruption problem. a A a A a A l0 We have speculati a were encouraged by that. Is was. And Ambassador Volker was? Yes. And Secretary Perry I believe was? he was. And Ambassador Taylor? I don't think I ever discussed it with Ambassador 0kaY. But I would imagine he would have been. I'm ng. But in your communications with Ambassador Taylor, did he seem to you that he was pro-Zelensky, that he was encouraged by hi s electi on and A Yeah, he seemed to like Zelensky, and he sent me a photo of he and Zelensky together standing on a balcony at a meeting together and they seemed to be having a njce s 98 1 conversati on. a 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 13 t4 t5 l6 t7 genu i ne, to you r knowledge? A That was our impression when we met with him right after the inauguratjon. O And one of the problems in the Ukraine of course is the oligarchs have a lot of power, they have a 1ot of government perks that were provided to them either -- under suspjcious ci rcumstances. Is that not correct? A That's my understandi ng. a And the owner of Burisma is a former, you know, ecology minister. And are you famitiar with the allegations that he gave hjmself some licenses? A I j ust am generally aware that Buri sma's consi dered a potentially corrupt company. I don't know the specifics. a And you're aware that it has been under i nvesti gati on at vari ous poi nts for corrupti on? A a l8 t9 20 And i s Zelensky's 'interest j n cleani ng thi ngs up That's what I understood. And the president Zlochevsky fe11ow, has been L) A f or i t. a 24 as an example of corrupti 25 di 2t 22 I don't js 0kay. the presjdent under i nvesti gatj know that person, And so dn't catch you off when on, guard? of Burisma, this on? but I'11 take your word the di scussion turned to Buri sma that di dn't surpri se you or that 99 2 No. It was a new element added. It was another obstacle to getting the meeting I wanted. But it djdn't J surprise I 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 16 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 A a me. Did you know of any other companies that were to be part of the A As I mentioned in my earlier testimony, Naflogaz comes up at every conversat'ion. a 0kay. So Burisma and Naftogaz, they were two representative samples of corruption in Ukraine? A Corruption and lack of transparency. a 0kaY. A Yeah. a When the Biden element was jntroduced, what was your understanding of what exactly did people want Ukraine to investigate the Bidens for? A I don't know. a 0kaY. A I honestly don't know. a And I say the Bidens, but were they referring mostly to Hunter Biden or don't you know? A I didn't even know who Hunter Biden was until I started readi ng about h'im i n the med'i a. I knew of Beau Bi den because of his, you know, untimely passing. But I didn't I rea11y you know, I'm not a follower of the Biden family other than I had worked wi th the Vi ce Pres'ident at one poi nt, considered corrupt or needed 100 I his office, on a project. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: If I could j ust for clari fi cati on, are J you asking what the Ukrainians wanted the Bidens investigated 4 for or what the President and Giuliani wanted the Bidens 5 i nvesti gated for? CAST0R: I'm just asking the witness. 6 1"1R. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: 8 9 l0 you aski I know, but what's your questi on? Are ng If the witness doesn't understand a question he can ask me or the witness' counsel can ask me. MR. CASTOR: the question read back? ll THE CHAIRMAN: Could we have t2 IThe reporter read back the record as requested.] l3 t4 l5 l6 I just want to make sure the witness understood who was referred to by the people. AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: I did not understand that. Can you clari fy the questi on? THE CHAIRMAN: BY MR. t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 O A a i nvolvi The CASTOR: Gi uI i ani element? restate the whole question, please? When you first learned that there was a component Can you ng the Bi dens - - A Yes. and that some element led by or simply Rudy a Giuliani, did you have an understanding of what exactly Giuliani was pushing in relation to the Bidens? 101 A a A a I 2 J No, I did not. did you ever come to understand what that 0n1y very recently. And was? 7 recently, what is your understanding of exactly what Rudy Giuliani was advocating for? A Not comi ng from Gi uli ani , but comi ng from medi a reports, now that it's all out, something about Hunter Bjden 8 being paid exorbitant board fees 4 5 6 a A a 9 l0 ll t2 And even Okay. That was my understanding. And that's the sum total of the atlegations, as you understand them, regarding the Bidens? l3 A Based on what I t4 a Did you l5 during hi s tenure l6 t7 l8 l9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 for service on a board. A 've read i n the press, yeah. know whether the Vice Presi dent had i nvolvement wi th Ukrai ne Bi den po1 i cy? Again, I learned recently that he apparently was to or had asked that a special prosecutor be di smi ssed. Again, that revelation came out asked a 0kay. teratly i n the last 5o during his tenure as Vice President he took a a n umbe r of trips to Ukraine. Did you know that? A r did. Okay. And he took an interest jn Ukraine policy. a And you learned that just recently? A 1i 102 I 2 I just learned that recently and I learned that Hunter Biden had traveled with him on Air Force Two. A 5 Okay. Closing out the May 23rd meeting, you don't rea11y know how it was scheduled. You said that you thought that the National Security Council staff 1ike1y put it 6 together. J 4 a A 7 8 9 l0 INonverbal response. ry, you have to say yes or no. AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: 0h, I 'n sorry. Correct, I know how exactly how it was scheduled. MR. G0LDI"IAN: Sor ll BY MR. a A t2 l3 did you get invited to the meeting? Well, the purpose of the meeting was to have the brief the President about their trip. l5 on the delegation. a A a t7 l8 t How delegation l6 don' CASTOR: t4 l9 ] And I was Okay. Yeah. So, 1ike, who inv'i ted you? Was it somebody in the 2t A I probably j ust got an ema'i1 sayi ng the meeti ng i s scheduled they don' t i ssue engraved i nvi tati ons, they j ust 22 send an emai 1. 20 23 24 25 a And have you everything about that A To the best told us, to the best of your memory, meet'ing? of my memory. It was a disappointing 103 I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll meet i ng. a letter comes and you can't you have no idea what happened in the intervenjng days? A No, because i t was i nconsi stent wi th the meeti ng. a 0kaY. And you never learned what happened in those And then the I'lay 29th i nterveni ng days? A Well, we had been pushing for a tetter and the letter came out. And I don't know if it was our pushing, if it was the meeting, if the President reconsidered, I have no 'idea. a But you never had any you didn't call Dr. Hilt l3 or Lieutenant Colonel Vindman or A I don't reca11 any communication before the letter t4 came out. t2 l5 16 l7 l8 l9 20 a A a Okay. You were just happy to see it. I was happy to see i t. Your September 9th telephone call with the Presi dent A a Yes. there were some text exchanges that have been 2t produced. And you reference in your statement that 22 decided 23 24 25 you to telephone the President. Is that correct? A I did. a Okay. Coutd you telt us everything you can remember about that? 104 4 getting a fairly shocking text from Ambassador Taylor where he had alleged in his text that aid was being withheld from Ukraine in return for a political for po1 i ti cal I 'm tryi ng to remember how he phrased i t 5 pu I 2 5 A rposes. I remember And Let me stop you right there. 6 a 7 MR. LUSKIN: 8 ANBASSAD0R SONDLAND: BY MR. 9 Let h'im finish his I'm fi answer. ni shed wi th my answer. CASTOR: t2 there's been a di scussi on about thi s White House meeting and whether there had to be a statement. But to your knowledge was there any discussion that aid would 13 be wi thheld? l0 ll t4 l5 O Okay. Because I never heard about aid being withheld until it had actually been withheld and someone notified me: By the way, A t7 the aid has been withheld. a Okay. But, to the best of your knowledge, do you l8 know about any preconditions on l6 l9 20 A a A a the aid? No. Okay. 23 I don't. So i t was U. S. poli cy to provide fi nanci al assistance to Ukraine and also lethal defensive weaponry, 24 right? 2t 22 25 A Correct. 105 O I 2 And that was a stepped up commi tment by the Unj ted States A a A a J 4 5 Correct. to help Ukraine? Correct. 7 you're not aware of any any allegation I'm sorry, you're not aware of any fact that that aid was 8 held up for any reason, such as investigations? 6 And l0 that the aid was held up once it had been held up, that someone I either received an email ll or 9 t2 A I a A But you don't was aware know 14 don't know why. MR. MANLEY: Let him finish his l5 MR. LUSKIN: l6 AMBASSADOR l3 l7 a l8 l9 us what You answer. Let him answer, please. SONDLAND: I don't know why. BY MR. CASTOR: Okay. So when you telephoned the President, tell happened. A until I 22 WeIl, from the time that the aid was held up telephoned the President there were a lot of rumors swirling around as to why the aid had been held up, inctuding 23 they wanted a review, they wanted Europe to do more. There 24 were 20 2l 25 all kinds of rumors. And I know i n my f ew previ ous conversati ons w'ith the 106 1 President he'S not big on sma1l talk so I would have one shot J to ask him. And rather than asking him, "Are you doing X because of X or because of Y or because of Z?" I asked him 4 one open-ended 2 5 6 7 8 9 10 ll question: What do you want f rom Ukraine? And as I recaIl, he was in a very bad mood. It was a very quick conversation. He said: I want nothi ng. I want no quid pro quo. I want Zelensky to do the right thing. And I said: What does that mean? And he said: I want him to do what he ran on. And that was the end of the conversation. I wouldn't say he hung up me, but it was almost like he hung up on me. a t2 l3 Okay. And then you resumed your communication with Ambassador Taylor? t7 Yeah. I had gotten as far as I could. I had asked the boss what he wanted. He wouldn't te11 me, other than: I want nothing. And I sent the note back to Ambassador Taylor once I reached him and suggested that he call Secretary l8 Pompeo. t9 a So the Presi dent A The President t4 l5 l6 20 2l 22 A d'idn't te11 you what to wri te i n a text? because he didn't know didn't know I was sendjng a text, that the question came from Ambassador Taylor. 24 O 25 Taylor, Okay. how When did he you sent the text did he resPond? back to Ambassador 107 2 I said, you should catl Secretary Pompeo or hi s assi stant, he sai d: I agree. And then I d'idn't f o11ow J up I 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 A When Did you ever close the loop wjth Ambassador Taylor? a A a A I don't recall. OkaY. Did -- I believe the aid was released shortly thereafter. I'm not sure it was necessary. When was the text sent, what date? a September 9th. 1l MR. LUSKIN: September. t2 l'4R l3 Al'IBASSADOR SONDLAND: t4 And . CAST0R: Septembe r . l7 l8 BY MR. CASTOR: a A a The 1Lth. Yeah. Let Ambassador 20 what he sa'id"? A me be clear, you've never closed the loop with Taylor, like, "I ca1led the President and this is t9 2t We've had conversations, 22 for i tse1f. 23 a 0kay. 24 A And I don' t know 25 . I think the aid was released a day or two after. l5 l6 September 9th Secretary or not. I h ave but I th'ink my text spoke that he ever followed up with no 'idea the 108 a I 2 Your text speaks the conversati A a 3 4 on is pretty defi ni tive. That's what Rl for itself, but your recounting of ght. And I remember. so but you di dn't relate the 5 conversati on wi th the President 6 point? A a 7 8 9 l0 ll wi th I don't bel i eve to I did, Ambassador Taylor at any no. Okay. I want to step back to the July L0th meeting Ambassador Bolton. A a A Uh-huh. How was that scheduled? l6 I thi nk the Ukrai ni ans through the mi ssi on j n or through the embassy jn Kyiv, set up the meeting through the Ambassador, through Taylor, would have been the normal you know, that they're coming to the U.S. and they want a White House meet'ing. I 'm speculati ng. And i t would have been set t7 up that t2 l3 t4 l5 l8 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 way. notified, somehow I would have been notified by my staff that there was a meeting going on, and I think the I think the idea was Secretary Perry again took the lead and said: It might be a good idea f or all of us to s'it i n f or conti nui ty si nce we've been talking to them. And we were all included. We got a -- I And then once we would have been think we got a note from Ambassador Bolton's assistant saying you're alf included in the meeting and we met. 109 2 a Do you remembe r who was A ['4yse1f, Perry, in the meeting? Volker, I think Yermak. I think was there, the Forei gn ster, and I thi nk 3 Prystai 4 Danylyuk was there, the National Security Adviser. ko 5 a Any other U.S. fo1 ks? 6 A There I don't 7 may h ni others taking notes. I don't reca11. 8 a Li eutenant 9 A Was l0 ave been Mi Co 1 onel Vi ndman, was he there? he there? He mi ght have been He there. wasn't i n the delegati on meeti ng. I don' t know. ll a How t2 A I believe l3 a And what do you remember from about Dr. I don't remember. H'i11? she was there. that meeting? t7 it wasn't rea1ly my meeting to run. I sat and ljstened. And I had a -- some kind of a briefing prior to it and there were a number of subjects being cove red energy, potentiat White House meeting, all kinds of l8 things. t4 l5 l6 You know, A , And Ambassador Bolton pretty much ran the meeting. long the meeting lasted? l9 a Do you remember how 20 A I want to say 30 minutes, my guess. 2t a And do you remember saying anything during the 22 23 24 25 mee t i ng? A remembe r a I may have chi med 'in on a point or two, but I i t bei ng a very fri endly meeti ng. 0kay. Did you bring up the prospect of 110 I i nvesti gations that Ukra'ini ans need to conduct? 5 A Not to the best of my knowledge. a Do you remember how the meeting ended? A I think hjs time was up, Ambassador Bolton's time we moved the meeting was up. And then I think we moved to 6 downstai 2 a J 4 7 8 9 rs wi thout Ambassador Bolton. a Where did you move the meeting to? A I believe it l8 t9 went down to the Ward ll t2 l3 t4 15 t6 t7 20 2l 22 23 24 25 in the Ward Room at the White House. a A a A a A I don ' t a A l0 was Do you know who reserved that room? No. Not you? No. I have no ability to reserve the Ward Room. 0kay. And who was in the followup meeting? I thi nk Dr. Hi 11, Perry, Volker, myself, Vi ndman. recal 1 who el se. office I think we went out and took a big picture and then So you leave the Ambassador's Room. 0kay. And was Dr. Hi 11 wi th you the enti re t'ime? I don't know i f she was she wasn't i n the picture, so maybe she left and came back. I don't remember. a Okay. Did Dr. Hill say anything at the Ward Room component of thjs meeting? A I th'ink we were talki ng back and f orth about, you a A 111 2 call prior to the parliamentary elections or not. And there was a difference of opinion 3 between Brian McCormack, Secretary Perry, Volker, myself, 4 Vindman, and I know, should there be a 6 Fiona. Everyone sort of had a different take on i t. And 'it was sort of a, you know, typi cal di scussi on where not everyone is in 100 percent agreement. We were sort of 7 going back and forth. 5 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 l4 l5 a Okay. What were the two posi tions, to e'ither do the call before or after the parliamentary A We11, I think were three positions. One was do it before, one was do it after, and the third was don't do it at all, there's no reason for one. And I don't remember whose posi ti on that was. I t mi ght have been Vi ndman' s a Don't do the call? A Don't do the cal1, there's nothing to talk about. . l6 a Do you remember t7 A I l8 t9 20 2t 22 been on don't the don't do the ca1l, but I don't a the 7/L0 A scheduled Okay. she might have She mi ght have been the Do you remember remember if Dr. Hill was jn favor of meet i ng? The 7 /L0 meeting, . I don't a Okay. 24 A The only acti on sure that we were I bel i eve, had know i f she was i n 23 25 Dr. Hj11's posjtion? already been favor of i t or not I th'ink our group took was to make i ncluded. 112 a 1 2 Did you ever have any heated discussions with Dr. Hi 11? l8 that I remember. Never had I don't ever remember havi ng a heated di scussi on wi th Dr . Hi f1 ' a Okay. And how often did you talk to her? A You know, maybe once or twice a month. I remember we were in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, and I had texted her, and she coincidentalty happened to be there. We met for coffee. I think her family was there and my wife and I, had a nice drink or coffee or something. And she sent me a nice note about Ukraine in February when we went to the 0dessa thing, that that was great and it worked rea11y well and thanks for helpi ng. 0ur relati onshi p has always been very cordi a1 O So she never expressed dismay about the scheduling of the 7/L0 meeting? A Not to me, that I recall. a And she never expressed to you di smay about how the meeting what occurred in the meeting in Ambassador t9 Bolton's office? ) 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 t3 t4 l5 t6 t7 20 2l 22 23 24 25 A No, not . A a Not to not to mY recollection. And when you decamped to the Ward Room she didn't express any dismay about what was discussed? A No. It was a typical policy discussion where people disagree on policy. a Was she in the Ward Room meeting the whole time or 113 did she leave early? 2 A I don't J a Okay. 4 A I 5 meet i ng 6 a place 7 a 8 A 9 a l0 A ll i t I don't remember. It wasn't even it wasn't even like a sit-down We were all standing up. We were just looking for to tal k. Okay. And do you remember how long that lasted? A few mi nutes. 0kay. So much shorter than 10, L0 minutes maybe, 1.5 mi nutes It wasn't a wasn't a long meeting. t2 a l3 A t4 a l5 same bunch l6 Ambassador Okay. 5o you never even sat down? I don't thi nk so. So the f olks that were 'in the Ward Room was the that was i n Ambassador Bo1 ton' s off i ce mi nus l7 A l8 a t9 A I don't believe the Ukrain'ians were there. 0h, they were not? Okay. I don't thi nk so. I 'm tryi ng to remember. 20 a Okay. 2t A I don't 22 a 0kay. 23 A 24 a 0kay. 25 A --.or if a couple of reca11 -- if the Ukrainians were there them came. You know, we 114 2 sort of on the move. It wasn't a formal 1y set meeting that I remember. It was sort of like 1et's find ) a place to talk I were a A a 4 5 6 7 we were OkaY. once Bolton had had 0kay. And Dr. Hi to leave 11 never, even after that meeti ng, never expressed any discomfort or dismay? t2 A No. I communicated with her on another subject a week or 2 later and it was just great. I mean, again, I've never had an unpleasant conversation with her that I can rEmember, of any kind. a How frequently did you sPeak wi th Li eutenant l3 Colonel Vi ndman? 8 9 l0 ll A t4 Rea11y only about the I 'm sor ry, about 0dessa l5 the inaugural trip, because he was on the delegati on. l6 thenlthinkafew times thereafter. t7 d then he sort of ropped away . l8 t9 And And of 0kay. a So he never expressed any dismay about any these? 22 I don't remember anybody being upset, dismayed, alarmed, concerned at any point in this whole -- in this whole process about -- about 23 the J u1y 1.0th meeti ng. 20 2l A J uly 25th that I remember. Again, Okay. The next key event is the telephone call a 24 25 No, not . on 115 I 2 a J A a Correct. Do you remember anything about how that call was scheduled? 22 NSC and this was what was so funny about it, the NSC had originally scheduled, after I read all of this stuff in the press about how they didn't want to have a were alarmed and didn't want to call cal1, they had actually scheduled a call for July 20th. And there was a whole there was a whole string from the scheduling office at the NSC that the call was set and they were going to do a test call. And then somehow at the last minute someone on that stream sa'id no call on the 20th, it's too close to the election. And we were disappointed because I think Volker or someone had communicated to the Ukrainians that there would be a call on the 20th, and i think they were getting Zelensky ready for it, and he was having to drive in to a phone. I don't remember all the details, but our credjbif ity was sinking quickly because the call got pulled down at the last minute, and then the call never rea1ly occurred, I believe, until the 25th, so 5 days later. a So first the call was scheduted before the 23 election? 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 t9 20 2l 24 25 A A a No. I remember it was the Yes. Then the call was scheduled after the election? 116 A a 1 2 J Correct. But you had no role in scheduling the call or advocati ng to A 4 5 at 6 others, I had a role 'in I was constantly pushing folks the White House, probably Vindman, probably 7 let's get a Hill, probably call a But did they respond to you, A We' like, okay we'11 do it 8 9 10 re worki ng on i t. I t was always the same, we' re worki ng on i t. 23 a Okay. Did you get a readout from the call? A No. What I got was I got a summary from one of my staff I think a day or two later, and the summary was very sort of innocuous. It was, you know, had a good ca11, talked about closer relations. That was it. I never got a transcri pt unti 1 i t was released. a Djd you hear Ambassador Volker or Ambassador Taylor or anybody else talk about the call? A No. a They didn't give you any A No one said the call was anything but, quote, "a good ca11. " That was i t. a Okay. 5o you didn't know anything else other than 24 that? ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 25 A No. I was happy to hear they had a good ca11. 117 a I 2 A I think they were a 0kay. everyone was happy about the And that was the extent of your information A a 7 8 9 Cor rect. even after the end of the very next day, your th the Ukrai ni ans? Correct. Everyone said it meeti ngs wi A a l0 ll was a good cal1. Djd you have any di scussions w'ith Ambassador Volker t2 during your trip about the call? D1d he give you l3 addi t4 l5 l8 l9 20 2t tional 'inf ormation? A I don't know that Ambassador any Volker was on the ca11. l6 l7 meet ca1I. 5 6 d you hear f rom the Ukra'in"ians, because you the very next day? Did you hear from them about the call? 3 4 Di a a 0kay. 0kay. But did he get a readout from ny body? A got the a me some I think he got the same I'm speculating he same summary that I did. 0kay. When did you first reafize that there might controversy with regard to the call? the transcript was released. 22 A When 23 0 Okay. And you were surprised? 24 A Quite. 25 a And could you te1l us how you learned that the 118 I transcript was coming? Did you get an advanced copy? 8 I don't think I did get an advanced copy. I think I saw i t when everyone saw 'i t f or the f i rst ti me. a Prior to the transcript release, I think the news of the complaint had surfaced. Do you remember when you first heard that somebody had raised a complaint? A I believe that was when, as I testified earlier' when someone from the White House ca11ed and said: Your name 9 i 2 J 4 5 6 7 l0 ll t2 l3 l4 A s menti oned a A a A t7 l8 A t9 a l6 20 2t 22 23 24 25 comPlai nt. 0kay. Along with Ambassador Volker. OkaY. So that would have been just before the complaint was made publ i c. a A O l5 'in the everybody 0kay. When di d you f i rst read the transcri Pt? 0f the call? 0f the cal1. Yeah. Probably when i t became publ i c. Okay. So you j ust read it on the internet like e1 se? or maybe someone on my A I think so I thi nk staff stuck i t on my desk. I don' t know. a 0kay. But you were in New York at the time, right? A Yeah. So my control officer might have put it in I remember reading it pretty my folder. I don' t remember. 119 1 much contemporaneously a 2 J 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2l A , a A the Wel1, i t wasn't consi stent wi th what, you know, I Were you surprised that 20LG was mentioned or I said, during this cont'inuum 2015 and Buri sma had been ment'ioned. As I recal1 the transcript, 'i t specifically mentioned the Bidens, and I had never heard the Bidens mentioned specifically unti1, you know and obviously it had occurred long before because that call was made on July 25th. a And did you realize there was going to be a 1ot of questions about that part of the transcript? A Yeah, because before the transcript was even out, you know, all of the press was making a big hullabaloo about it. a 0kay. And did you speak with anybody such as Ambassador Volker or any other people? no, I A I don't I don't remember. I mean it don't remember if I did or didn't. a get 25 to had understood the ask was. 22 24 And what was your react'ion transcript? 4 5 0kay. with everyone else. a Not 2015, because, as the news reports, and then you copy of i t, and then the White House calls you, and 0kay. that's pretty A So you hear much the sum I thi nk so, yeah. total of the 120 I a 0kay. 2 A They wanted me to come J talk in and I said: I need to to my counsel. 4 a Okay. 5 A And 6 a The Presi dent' s deep- rooted v'iew, skepti ca1 vi ew of I never came in. 8 r anti -corrupti on system, what do you, to the basis for his extent you know, what was the basis for his 9 views? l0 A 7 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 Ukrai ne and the'i You mean they tried to take a A O A aside from his, you know, comment about me down? Yes. Just a general? Yes. that they things and never deliver. That's one of I think generally he was frustrated would the l6 always promise t7 reasons he was so adamant about seeing something put out by l8 President Zelensky either t9 in the form of a press release or an interview on network televisjon or something where 20 President Zelensky would publicly commit to whatever he was 22 to. I think that was my understanding from Volker as dictated by Giuliani. He wanted somebody to go on Z) the record. 2t 24 25 going to commit a The President was an advocate for the U.S. military aid and additional aid. Is that correct? 121 I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 A a I don't know. 0kay. Did you ever have any discussions with Nat'ional Security Council staff about the 7/LB hold? 0n JuIy L8th, that's when the aid was held up. A I don't believe I talked to the NSC staff. I betieve I was totd by Ambassador Taylor through a text that there was a hold. He had participated in a SVTC and he had found out about a hold. And that was frustrating to me because it just put another obstacle in the way of getting a 10 meeti ng ll facts or what firsthand accounts can you provide about the aid holdup? a What l3 A None. t4 a 0kay. t2 l5 l6 t7 l8 l9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 I kept getting different A a A Other than was aware of answers f rom it, I didn't know why I di fferent people. Okay. There was never any clear -- any clear articulation ho1d, is it a review, is it an of, i s there even a audit, is it the Europeans? I could never get a straight answer out of anyone. a So you never tried to contact OMB or National Securi ty Counci 1 to fi nd out more? A I think I -- I think I made a couple of caIls. I may have asked a couple of my folks in the mission. And I by anyone 122 it just kept getting to be a dead end. I just I just 2 not get a straight J 4 5 6 7 8 9 aid off ll a A l3 t4 15 answer. a So you didn't lobby anybody to lift the aid, you were just trying to find out had what was going on? A Yeah, I was trying to find out what was going on. And I think there was an email that went around saying we can't, you know, cut off aid under any circumstances. And I think I had added to jt, I agree, you know, because I thought it was it was not a good idea for any reason to cut that l0 t2 could . So you were not an actor in that set of facts? If I was, it was having any role whatsoever MR. CASTOR: 1eft. Does it unw'i tting. i don't remember in that. Mr. Jordan, we've got about L5 minutes make sense to? t6 Mr. Nunes. t7 MR. NUNES: Thank 18 I just want to go back to something Mr. Castor referred you, Ambassador. 23 to about the skepticism the President has with Ukraine. I don't know how closely you followed what thjs committee went through in the last 3 years, but also the Mueller investigation, special counsel. A lot of it was centered on a product called the Steele dossier. You've heard of that, I 24 assume. l9 20 2l 22 25 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: I have. 123 J that the origins of the Steele dossier were from Ukraine, many of the origins in the original Steele dossier were from Ukraine, the politicians 4 wi I 2 a 5 6 7 8 9 l0 l1 t2 l3 t4 MR. NUNES: Were you aware thi n Ukrai ne? just posit that this the ranking member's view. We cannot accept that as an actual or factual representati on. 5o i f you ' re aski ng MR. NUNES: I don't want to get into a tit for tat with you, but what's factual? The Steele dossi er di dn' t ori gi n parts of i t di dn't ori gi nate i n Ukrai ne? THE CHAIRMAN: I would THE CHAIRMAN: You can certainly ask the wjtness whether he's aware of any allegat'ions. MR. NUNES: I ' l1 ask the wi tness whatever I 'd 1 i ke to ask the w'itness. 20 Yes. And the witness witl not assume that the predicate of my colleague's quest"ion is an accurate recitation of the fact. MR. 14EADOWS: But, Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, you lead the wi tness all the t'ime, all the time, Mr. Chairman. Come on. It is our hour, let him ask the 2l questi ons. l5 l6 t7 l8 l9 22 23 24 25 THE CHAIRMAN: THE CHAIRMAN: I understand that. I want to make sure the witness understands, though, that MR. MEADOWS: Would you mjnd questi ons when i t's your hour? 1f we clarified your 124 I 2 J 4 THE CHAIRT'IAN: When you' that day ever re chai ri ng a commi ttee, should come, you're more than welcome MR. MEAD0WS: To my knowledge, to do so. this'is an equal L hour versus L hour. 7 , i t 'i s MR. I4EAD0WS: And to my knowledge, you may be a chairman, but this is not a committee hearing. It's 8 deposi t jon. 5 6 9 l0 ll t2 l3 THE CHAI RMAN: Yes THE CHAIRMAN: . a I thank you for your input, Representati ve Meadows. And you may continue, you may respond, you wish, Mr. Sondland, if to the question. MR. NUNES: So 1et me just restate the question for you. t7 that the Steele doss'ier, I'm assum'ing, has anythi ng to do wi th Ukrai ne or ori gi nati ons i n Ukrai ne. However, in the Steele dossier itself it does source 'information from Ukraine. Were you aware of that, l8 Ambassador? t4 l5 16 t9 20 2t 22 The Democrats disagree AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: reports. -- 1et me ask you another thing. Are you aware of who paid for the dossier? MR. NUNES: 0kay. So you can under SONDLAND: I 'm not LJ AMBASSADOR 24 MR. NUNES: Would 25 0n1y recently, based on media . it surprise you to learn that the Clinton campaign and the Democrat National Committee paid for 125 I the dossi er? 5 I don't know anything about it. MR. NUNES: And the dossier was -- was gleaned from foreign sources. It was from a former MI6 spy that was paid by through a contractor to get information, dirt, 6 opposition research, what have you, from Ukra'inians and 7 Russi ans and 2 J 4 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: about l1 was t2 FBI? fed, I think AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: the Steele dossier, I l5 about 'i ts exi stence. l6 t7 l8 the dossier, you do remember it s you would reca1l t4 MR. NUNES: mean Sure. Counsel Bob Mueller and know anythi ng I'm sorry. Congressman. l'lR. NUNES: So thi l0 t3 that, I don't I don't AMBASSADOR SONDLAND 8 9 others. this, it AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: to the n, I haven't been followi ng other than just generally knowing Agai But you know it was fed that it 1ed to Special was one of the went on for I assume that 22 NUNES: for a year and a half. So the point of thjs i s, i s that when the Presi dent says take they tried to take me down, there were po1 i ti ci ans that were quoted as spreading this dirt onto the Trump 23 campaign. CouId that be what the President was referring to 24 when he t9 20 2t 25 MR. said they trjed to take AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: me down? I don't know what he meant. He 126 I 2 kept repeati ng 'i t, though, they tried to take me down, they tried to take me down. He was not a fan of Ukraine, per se. MR. NUNES: And you can understand why, from his 3 4 perspecti ve, i f SONDLAND: 5 AMBASSADOR 6 MR. NUNES: 7 many ti mes I understand what you're sayi ng. I'm sure he read the Steele dossier . 8 That's all I have, Mr. Castor. 9 MR. J0RDAN: Ambassador, l0 tel1 me what you thought of President Zelensky. ll AMBASSADOR t2 MR. J0RDAN: And now l3 AMBASSADOR t4 many, so hard S0NDLAND: We11, one of as the teader SONDLAND: One the of Ukraine. of the reasons I was pushing for the meeting after the inauguration, I thought t8 that he and President Trump would get along very wel1. He's very articulate, he's funny, he's charming, and he's pretty smart, and he's got a 1ot of energy. And I thought the two gentlemen would have good chemi stry together and that good l9 things would happen between the U.S. and Ukraine. l5 l6 t7 20 2t 22 23 24 25 MR. J0RDAN: You thought they'd hi t i t off . I did. MR. JORDAN: And your focus and you weren't the only one. We've heard testimony. It's in her opening statement, Ambassador -- former Ambassador to Ukraine, she thought the same thing. Ambassador Volker thought that. It seemed like AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: 127 I everyone thought you get these two guys together, they're 2 goi ng 5 to h'it i t of f . And that was your f ocus. Is that accurate? Is that fair? A['4BASSAD0R S0NDLAND: Yes, it is. 14R. J0RDAN: And the Ukrajnian people thought this 6 was 5 4 the real 8 dea1. AMBASSADOR 7 guy S0NDLAND: Yeah, I think he won by a fairty heatthy margin. MR. JORDAN:. 73 9 s won wi th that percent. I don't know if anyone in the l0 room' ll l3 to get these two together and that was your focus. And you thought, if you cou1d, that was good for the country, good for our country and good for t4 thei rs. t2 margi n. So your whole goal was SONDLAND: Correct. l5 AMBASSADOR l6 MR. J0RDAN: 0kay. t7 The gentleman from New York. l8 MR. ZELDIN: Mr. Ambassador, earlier referenced 22 Taylor, and later you were answering questions with regards to your effort to find out why there was a hold on aid. Did Ambassador Taylor ever mention to you a -anything about a quid pro quo prior to that text that you 23 responded to? t9 20 21 24 25 Ambassador text do you refer? l'lR. ZELDIN: Do you reca11 receiving a text from AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: To which 128 I Ambassador 2 U. J Bi dens? 4 5 6 7 8 S. ai d Taylor suggeSting that there was a linkage to between Ukrai ne and openi ng an i nvesti gati on i nto the AMBASSADOR text said. I S0NDLAND: I don't know that that's what the reca11 -- MR. ZELDIN: What do you recall? I recal1 there was some kind of a text that ajd was connected to some political agenda of the AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: l0 President's. That'S what Ambassador Taylor articulated and that's what prompted my phone call to President Trump to ask ll him what he wanted. 9 l3 in your conversation wi th President Trump he was he was clear to you that there was no quid l4 pro quo, correct? t2 15 MR. ZELDIN: And AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: Again, I didn't I didn't frame t7 the question about the ajd and the 1ink. I d'id not frame the question that way. I asked the question open ended: What do l8 you want? l6 t9 20 the President was clear about in his response to you, what was he clear -MR. ZELDIN: But 23 said: I want nothing. I don't want to give them anything and I don't want anything from them. I want Zelensky to do the right thing. That's what he 24 and he kept repeating no quid pro quo over and over again. 2t 22 25 AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: He MR. ZELDIN: And then you told Ambassador Taylor that? 129 2 I sent him the text that sai d: No qui d pro quo. Please call the Secretary i f you J have any I AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Then further concerns. t2 of information prompted Ambassador Taylor to send you that text? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I don't. I was quite shocked when I got i t, though. are you aware at all of any MR. ZELDIN: You're not firsthand knowledge Ambassador Taytor had to inform him of what led him to send that text? AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: I don't know where he got it and I don't recal1 him tetling me how he heard it. I just got the l3 text. 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t4 l5 MR. ZELDIN: Do you know what source MR. ZELDIN: Is jt possible that he with a Politico story that came are you familiar out around that l6 AMBASSADOR t7 MR. ZELDIN: Then you had a conversation l8 t9 20 2l 22 24 25 time? SONDLAND: No. with Ambassador Taylor? After I sent my text back to him? I don't believe I did. I think I testified earlier that I sent the text, I suggested he call the Secretary. He said he agreed. I don't know if he ever cal1ed the Secretary because, as I said, the hold was lifted within a day or two after that text. MR. ZELDIN: At no time at no time you received any AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: 130 I information that there was a linkage between a hold on aid 2 and opening an investigation 8 into the Bidens? AMBASSAD0R S0NDL.AND: You mean prior to hi s text? \ilR. ZELDIN: At any time, I'm asking you. AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: I don't reca11. MR. ZELDIN: You don't have at no time djd you recejve any information that there was a linkage between a hold on aid to Ukraine and opening an investigation into the 9 Bi dens? J 4 5 6 7 l0 AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: I recall heari ng multi ple reasons l5 people. I never heard that it was being held specifically to investigate the Bidens. I never heard the word "B'iden" mentioned wi th a'id. MR. ZELDIN: And you're not aware of Ambassador Taylor ever receiving any firsthand information that would back up t6 that allegati on e'i ther? ll t2 l3 l4 t7 l8 why the ajd was being held from various AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: Taylor received. I don't You're 19 MR. ZELDIN: 20 AMBASSADOR 2t MR. ZELDIN: And i know. just S0NDLAND: did in fact meet I can't testify to what Ambassador f I you're not I'm not aware. aware. understand correctly, President with Presjdent Zelensky at the U.N. 22 Trump 23 General Assembly, correct? 24 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: That ' 25 MR. ZELDIN: And you were s cor rect. present at that meeting? 131 AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I was, along with many others. MR. ZELDIN: And has President Trump and President 2 J Zelensky 4 present? hit it off in their engagements where you have been 8 I th'ink that was the only engagement where they were together that I was present. MR. ZELDIN: So the meeting a meeting between Pres'ident Trump and President Zelensky did in fact take place 9 i 5 6 7 AMBASSADOR n SONDLAND: September? Correct. l0 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: ll MR. MCCAUL: Thank you. t4 for being here today. I'm ranking member on the Foreign Affairs Committee. I just had a couple of questions about the freeze on the l5 foreign assistance. You stated you learned about that t6 through t2 l3 Thank you, Ambassador, Bj 1I Taylor. Is that correct? Correct. t7 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: l8 MR. MCCAUL: What about Ambassador Volker? l9 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: I'm sure we discussed it as well 23 I -- I think I first learned it from Taylor where he had participated in some SVTC video conference and he was told that there was a hold put on. He didn't know why. And then But again, I'ffi speculating. I we probabty talked about jt. 24 don't 20 2t 22 25 once remember exactly. MR. MCCAUL: And then what was your response to that? 132 J I didn't think much of it when it was initjally put on other than I was just frustrated because jt was one more obstacle to my meeting that I was trying to 4 get scheduled. AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: 2 5 6 7 8 9 MR. I4CCAUL: Right. Did you have any conversations President Zelensky about that? AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: I don't remember di scussi ng that with President Zelensky. MR. MCCAUL: Do you know l0 knowledge about that? 1l AMBASSADOR t2 wj th S0NDLAND: if President Zelensky had any I don't. I don't know if he did or didn't. t4 it surprise you that Ambassador Volker testified that he had no knowledge about that freeze l5 on the foreign assistance? l3 MR. MCCAUL: Would 20 I don't know if he got the same text from Ambassador Taylor that I did, which was the text after the SVTC. I can't remember if that was a group text just directly to me. t'lR. MCCAUL: Right. And so from all testjmony we've 2t heard, including yours today, President Zelensky had no idea 22 about the hold on l6 t7 l8 t9 23 24 25 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: or this foreign AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: I don't know when he became aware of the hold. 1'4R. MCCAUL: Ri ght. 133 I 2 J 4 5 I don't know when he MR. MCCAUL: And that's probably why you said there was i f the no qui d pro quo. How could there be 'if he di dn't other -- the person who had received that for whjch, translated from Latin, would be had no knowledge AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 6 AI'{BASSAD0R SONDLAND: 7 MR. 8 AMBASSADOR 9 l0 Right. MCCAUL: about the foreign assistance, correct? S0NDLAND: Can you restate your question? I 'm sor ry. MR. MCCAUL: In other words, that's probably why you ll said there was no quid pro quo, because if the person that 12 would be receiving something had no knowledge l3 foreign assistance is being held that the up. 18 I would assume that by September, just before the hold was lifted, when I was getting this alarming text from Ambassador Taylor, that at that point I would assume that Zelensky would have known that there was a hold. I don' t know that he knew about the hold when the hold t9 was put on. l4 l5 l6 t7 20 2t 22 23 24 25 AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I"lR. I{CCAUL: Right. But he to your knowledge, you had no conversation with him about this. AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: I don't reca11 any conversation about thi s. MR. MCCAUL: 1ater, correct? And your speculati on But 'is he may have tearned that's speculation. 134 S0NDLAND: Yeah, i I AMBASSADOR 2 MR. MCCAUL: And 3 the July 25th phone t's totally speculati on. that would have been certa'i nly af ter ca11. SONDLAND: 4 AMBASSADOR 5 MR. MCCAUL: And 6 AI"IBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: I'm speculati ng. that's all speculation. A11 speculati on. l0 0kay. I yield back. Let me ask you one more thing. So you're an ambassador. Just real quickly. Don't you have a legal obli gation to certify anti-corruption before foreign assistance is given to ll a foreign country? 7 8 9 MR. MCCAUL: t2 l3 AMBASSADOR But I'm not the ambassador to Ukra'ine. MR. MCCAUL: Cor l4 l5 S0NDLAND: the State rect. But i sn' t that the practi ce of Department? AI"IBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 16 I am not awa re. I ' m not a 20 lateral ambassador. I wouldn't make those certi fi cati ons with respect to the European Union. l'4R. MCCAUL: We11, I guess i t wouldn't surpri se you that that is the policy and obligation under the appropriation 2t that 17 l8 t9 22 23 bi was -AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: any knowledge I don't have any of that. 24 MR. MCCAUL: There 25 Yes, thank you. is a legal requirement. I don't have 135 I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 lt t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 l9 20 2t 22 ZJ 24 25 I don't have any knowledge. THE CHAIRMAN: The time of the minority has expired. Why don't we take a 30 minutes break for 1unch, and we'11 resume, tet's say, at L:10 p.m. Counsel has asked for 45 minutes, so 1et's resume then what would that be? Let's resume at L:20. AMBASSADOR lRecess.l SONDLAND: 136 I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll l2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 18 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 137 I [].:25 p.m.l THE CHAIRMAN: 2 All right. Should we go back on the J record? 0kay. 4 durj ng our lunch break Chief of Staff Mulvaney gave a rather 5 remarkable press conference. 6 watch i t? AMBASSADOR 7 8 Back on the record Di d SONDLAND: NO, I Ambassador Sondland, you have an opportuni did not see it. I ty to haven't been recejving any news. THE CHAIRMAN: 9 Wel1, we're getti ng a of i t we do. But I want transcri pt l3 to i t later when to go back to something you said in your opening statement. You sai d wi thholdi ng forei gn aj d in order to pressure a foreign government to take such steps wel1, let me begin t4 the paragraph on page L7. l0 ll t2 and we may make reference Let me state clearly, you sai d, l5 " i nvi ti ng a forei to undertake investigations for the purpose of l6 government t7 influencing an upcoming U.S. elect'ion would be wrong. 18 W'i l9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 gn thholdi ng f orei gn ai d i n order to pressure f orei gn to take such steps would be wrong. I did not and would not ever participate in such undertakings. In my opinion, security aid to Ukraine was in our vital national interest and should not have been delayed for any reason. " You stand by that testimony? AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: I do. government THE CHAIRMAN: During Mr. Mulvaney's press conference, 138 l5 for the first time, that the mititary aid was being withheld, at least in part, over a desire to get Ukrai ne to i nvest'igate the DNC. I take i t you were not aware of that? MR. CASTOR: Do you have a copy of the transcript, Mr. Chairman, to pass around? THE CHAIRMAN: We don't have the transcript, but we hope to have one soon. So we'11 have exact language, but it was words to that effect. i take it that t'lR. JORDAN: We'd like to see that before you proceed. THE CHAIRMAN: Wel1, I would like to see that as we11. But my question, Ambassador Sondland, is if the Chief of Staff Mulvaney acknowledged that military a'id was being withheld in any part to secure Ukraine's investigation of the DNC, I take it that's not something that you were aware of l6 unti 1 I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 he acknowledged, MR. ZELDIN: t7 l8 now? Mr. Chai r, what exactly di d Mj ck Mulvaney say? 19 THE CHAIRMAN: 20 other i nter rupti ons. Counsel, I'm not going to entertain any 2t MR. ZELDIN: You're asking the question, Mr. Ambassador. 22 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 23 24 25 I heard the question. THE CHAIRMAN: 0kay. PIease respond to the question. I"'lR. ZELDIN: I don't know if the witness would like to read the transcri pt. 139 THE CHAIRMAN: I 2 please. The witness js instructed to answer the question. Al'IBASSADOR S0NDLAND: J 4 Mr. Zeldin, no further interruptions, I'm sorry, Chai rman, would you repeat the question one more time? ll If the Chief of Staff acknowledged today that the military aid was being withheld in part over desire to get Ukrajne to investigate the DNC, do I understand your testimony that th'is would be the first you would be learning of that? AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: WeII, that's speculative. You' re saying if he said that, would jt be the first time I have t2 learned about 'it? 5 6 7 8 9 l0 THE CHAIRMAN: l3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. t4 AMBASSADOR l5 THE CHAIRNAN: And would l6 t7 SONDLAND: Yes, it is. you ever have countenance, the thholdi ng of aj d, to secure Ukraj ne's 'investi gate the DNC? wi commi tment to l9 I believe I testified, or my statement indicates, I would not have withheld aid for any 20 reason. 2t TH l8 22 23 24 25 AMBASSADOR E SONDLAND: CHAI RI4AN : And you, in particular, wouldn't withhold aid to secure help in a U.S. election, correct? Al'lBA55AD0R S0NDLAND: For any reason . I'm asking about this parti cular reason. Would you ever countenance withholding aid from THE CHAIRI4AN: We11, 140 2 to secure an i nvesti gat'ion of the DNC that mi ght be in the President's interest in the 2016 election in the J 2020 electi Ukrai ne on? 4 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: 5 MR. ZELDIN: 6 7 8 why I would not. Mr. Chair, this entire line of questioning, t for the transcri pt? Mr. Zeldj n, you' re not THE CHAIRMAN: 14r . Zeldi n don't you j ust recogn j zed wai . l0 But, Mr. Chairman, you clarified on the other, and 1et's make sure we clari fy i t. You sai d 2020 ll electi on. That's not necessari 1y accurate. 9 12 MR. MEADOWS: THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. -- l5 it in a way that 'i s not necessarjly consistent with what I just heard. THE CHAIRI4AN: Mr . Meadows, I thi nk the wi tness t6 understood my question. l3 t4 t7 l8 t9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 MR. MEADOWS: You've characterized didn't understand the 2020 part that you added in at the last part. He made a comment that he wasn't aware of it. THE CHAIRMAN: I appreciate your representing what the witness understood or not, but the witness can speak for h'imself . Let me move on to another question, Ambassador. I think you said in answer to my colleague's questions that you really wanted the President of the United States to meet with the President of Ukraine and thought it was the MR. MEADOWS: Wel1, he 141 I 'interest of both countries. Is that right? S0NDLAND: Correct. 2 AI"IBASSADOR J THE CHAIRMAN: 4 5 6 7 But it became conversation with the President clear to you in that that your meeting wasn't to take place unless the Presi dent's lawyer's i nterests or concerns were met. Is that right? goi ng AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: When the President suggested that 17 Giuliani, that was, I bef ieve, on May 23rd, and only a few days later, he djd, in fact, issue an uncondi ti onal i nvi tati on. 5o at that poi nt , we thought whatever the logjam was, it had been broken. THE CHAIRMAN: Well , I th'ink you testi f i ed earl i er, didn't you, lulr. Sondland, that when the President told you to tatk to Mr. Giuliani, you understood that unless the President's lawyer's interests were satisfied, there was go'ing to be no meeti ng? AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: But then the invitation was l8 i ssued. 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t9 we speak to Mayor THE CHAIRI'IAN: We'11 get to one thing at a t jme. Before 22 the invitation was extended, you understood from the Pres'ident that unless l'lr. Giuliani's interests or concerns were met there was going to be no meeting. Isn't that 23 co r rec t? 20 2t S0NDLAND: 24 AMBASSADOR 25 the door on the 23rd. I understood that walking out of 142 1 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 14 l5 t6 t7 l8 l9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 of the other things that and we should have a transcri pt, I hope soon, Mr . ['4ulvaney expressed during the conference just now, was that letter THE CHAIRMAN: Now, one invitation was a courtesy, and that scheduling may or may not allow it, but they extend that courtesy of a kind of an open generic invitation to many world leaders. Do you d'isagree wi th that? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I wasn't aware of that. THE CHAIRI"IAN: You weren' t aware that the Chi ef of Staf f of the Presi dent took a d'if f erent vi ew of how commi tted the Presjdent was in that letter to an actual meeting? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I 'm sorry. Repeat the questi on agai n, please. THE CHAIRMAN: The questi on i s, Mr. Mulvaney j ust expressed that the letter i nvi tat'ion was essenti a1ly a courtesy, and the same courtesy that is extended to other world leaders, it wasn't a binding commitment to a meeting. AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: We11, when I saw the letter I took it seriously. But then we never got a meeting scheduled and we kept working on trying to get a meeting scheduled and could never get it nailed down. THE CHAiRMAN: You testified also that the President expressed a concern to you that the Ukrainians would promise but not deliver, and that the President wanted Ukrainians on the record. Is that ri ght? 143 t2 I di d. Yes. THE CHAIRI4AN: And in this context, the "promise but not deliver," and on the record, that involved getting a commitment from Ukraine to conduct these investigations that the President and his Iawyer wanted? Is that correct? AI"IBASSADOR SONDLAND: I beljeve that what Mayor Giuliani passed on, or I believe what I heard from Ambassador Volker, 1 i kely comi ng from Mayor Gi ul i ani , because the Presi dent never made that statement directly to me or to anyone, to the best of my knowledge, was that whatever the Ukra'inians were going to promise in any context, he wanted it public. THE CHAIRMAN: You also mentioned that in going through l3 the chronology with the minority counsel, that over time, t4 learned more and more about what the President and his lawyer l5 truly I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: you l6 Ukraine. And there was an evolution from generic interest in fighting corrupt'ion to an interest in t7 Burjsma, l8 l9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 wanted from to finally the realizat'ion that what they were jnterested in was'investigation of the Bidens. Is that fai r summary? AMBASSADOR a SONDLAND: Yes. I thjnk you suggested that you learned about the connection to the Bidens, that the interest i n Buri sma wasn' t generi c. In fact, i t was because of the B'idens, at some point before the telephone calt transcript was released. Is that accurate? THE CHAIRMAN: And 144 AMBASSADOR I SONDLAND: I don't recaIl exactly when I 6 that. i don't know the date. THE CHAIRMAN: We1l, let me ask you this: Do you recall how you learned that the President and his lawyer's interest in Burisma was not a generic interest in the company or in corrupti on, but was, i n fact, an i nterest i n the Bi dens. Do 7 you remember how you learned that? 2 J 4 5 learned AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: 8 9 I don't recal1 what made the 11ght go on duri ng that conti nuum, THE CHAIRMAN: l0 r'lo. Wel1, when the light did go on, because didn't think that meetings or ll you've said that you t2 government action should be conditioned on helping l3 political other a l8 light did go on, did you take any steps to say, Hey, we have to stop th'is condi ti oni ng of thj s meeti ng because thi s i s not appropri ate? AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: I believe when the light went on, the phone call had already occurred, and meetings were being di scussed, but, agai n, never scheduled. So i t became t9 irrelevant. t4 l5 t6 t7 campaign, when the 2t can't tell us how the light came on? That is, how you came to learn that Burisma was really 22 the 20 THE CHAIRI'4AN: And you Bi dens? S0NDLAND: I can't. I don't 23 A1'4BASSADOR 24 THE CHAIRMAN: 25 MR. G0LDMAN: Thank you. Mr. Goldman. reca11. 145 BY I4R. I GOLDMAN : l7 a You understood that you said you were happy to see that May 29th letter of invitation, right? A Yes. a And how many countries are in the EU? A 28, soon to be 27 a And you've seen these types of i nvi tat'ions to the White House without specific dates related to other countries, too, right? A No, those letters would go to the b'ilateral ambassadors of those countries, not to me. a 5o you don't even see them? A No. a But you did see them for Ukraine? A Yes, because someone sent j t to me because they knew I was helping on the file. a Okay. Because it was a central part of your 18 ambassadorsh'ip, ri ght? 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 16 t9 20 . A a the file. Those are your words, central part of Because I was helping on you r 23 mine. That's what you said in your opening statement. Are you staying that's not the case n ow? MR. LUSKIN: We've gone over this ground. We read that 24 portion 2t 22 25 ambassadorship, not MR. GOLDMAN: l'4r. Luskin, I didn't expect a di spute 146 I 2 J 4 s, i t was i n hi s oPeni ng statement. I j ust want to the central part understand if it's now not a Part of his of hi s ambassadorshi p. AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I StANd by my previ ous testj mony. about thi 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 18 t9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 a BY MR. GOLDMAN: 0kay. You hosted an Independence Day celebration in Brussels on June 4th of this year. Is that right? A r did. a And Secretary Perry came? A Yes. a Ulrich Brechbuhl came? A Cor rect. a Was Secretary PomPeo there? A He was not. a But President Zelensky came as weI1, right? A President Zelensky came. a Did you personally invite President Zelensky? A I invited a number of leaders. a Including President ZelenskY? A Including President ZelenskY. a And did you have any substantive conversations w'ith President Zelensky at that gathering? A I think it was all social. There were several people at the dinner. It was a very casual social evening. It wasn't designed to do business, it was designed for people 147 I to get to know one another. a 2 Did he mention the White House meeting to you? 7 I don't reca11 him mentioning that. I don't I didn't even sit next to him, he sat across the table from he and it was a big tabte. a 5o you didn't speak to him one-on-one at all? A I spoke to him, but I don't recall talking about 8 the White House meeting there. J 4 5 6 A a 9 l0 that point you knew that President Zelensky desperately wanted a White House meeting, right? A 1l t2 By 0h, I think President Zelensky wanted a White House meeting from the day he was inaugurated. t5 that's a very important sign for legi timacy i n Ukrai ne. Is that ri ght? A Every country that I encounter wants a Whjte House l6 meet i ng. 13 t4 a Right. Because l8 a Partjcularly, if you're sort of a new leader, it hetps to cement your legitimacy to have a White House t9 meeti t7 20 2t 22 23 24 25 ng, ri ght? A a Ukraine A a Among other things, yes. And you know from your engagement in Ukraine that js very dependent on the United States, right? They are. t the securi ty assistance that the United States provides, that's part of And we di scussed a 1 i ttle bi 148 I it. 2 J things. a A 4 5 6 Is that right? A I think they're dependent on us for a number of 'i Such as what? We1l, first of all, moral support. That's the most mportant. Clearly, some defense i ssues, some securi ty 22 ta1. All ki nd of thi ngs. O Now, we're going to sort of try to move through the summer months to the best of your recollection. And, you know, just to be very c1ear, Ambassador Sondland, yotl have made it very clear today that your -- at least to us as we perceive it that your objective was to promote Ukraine democracy jn Ukraine, and the Zelensky presidency, which you thought was a very positive step for the country. And I thi nk we all recogni ze and appreci ate that. And, obvi ously, you've been caught up in some events that are the subject of this investigation, but I don't think anyone doubts your good fai th desi re to help Ukrai ne. What we're trying to understand is the factual development, the evolution of what happened rea11y from that May 23rd meeting, you know, up until today. So, you know, to the best of your ability, we appreciate anything that you can 23 remembe r 24 D'id 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 13 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 l9 20 2t 25 i ssues, Western capi Brussel s . you have any conversations wi th Secretary Perry i n around that Independence Day celebration related to 149 I Ukrai ne? J I don't reca11 any. And, counsel, the dinner was rea11y a social dinner. The subject of the dinner was not 4 Ukrai ne and was 5 of 2 6 7 8 9 l0 A not President Zelensky. The Prime 14ini ster there. The President of Poland was there. Jay Leno was there. Mr. Kushner was there. There were a lot of celebrities, guests, and it was a very sort of light-hearted evening. It was not a business dinner. a Did President Zelensky, as a comedian, get along Roman'ia was well with Jay Leno? ll A t2 was hi s hero. He was honored to meet hjm. Apparently, Jay Leno l5 ful1y understanding that this was not the purpose of the meeting, I'm just wondering if you had any conversations with Secretary Perry what would have been, I t6 guess, 2 weeks t7 were you and Secretary Perry and Ambassador Volker, were l8 given more responsjbility over Ukraine. Do you reca1l? l3 t4 a So after the White House meeting where you 24 I probably I don't believe I sat next to Secretary Perry at the djnner. I may have said he11o, chatted. Everyone was making sma11 talk. The biggest thing, frankly, that came out of the meeting from a business standpoint was that the President of Poland and President Zelensky seemed to rea11y hit it off, and they 25 began working on some PoIand-Ukraine issues t9 20 2t 22 23 A I don't, because agai n, together, whjch I 150 6 that that happened. a And just to be clear, you know, we're trying to stay on message here, or on focus. We understand there's a 1ot of other things that go into Ukraine policy. So when we try to narrow down the focus, the point is not at all to say that this is the only thing you were talking about, and we 7 understand you had a wide-ranging portfolio. I 2 J 4 5 8 9 was very pleased without necessarily putting a date on it, do you remember whether you had a conversation the conversation So t2 that you referenced with Secretary Perry about his conversation with Rudy Giuliani after that [,lay 23rd meeting. Do you remember i f that was before or after that May 29th l3 letter? l0 ll 20 All I can recall, Counsel, is that when the three of uS agreed that we needed to somehow contact Mr. Giuliani in order to move the process forward, that Secretary Perry volunteered to make the first outreach, because he was the when most familiar with Rudy. I thjnk when he ran for Rudy ran for President a Sorry to interrupt you. Do you remember when that 2t was? t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 22 A I don't. I A 23 would 24 testi fi 25 make ed know that I think we all agreed the outreach. And then he and Volker, as I before 1unch, kind of took it from there. [[4ajori ty Exhi bi t No. 5 that he 151 was marked f oridenti f icat'ion.l BY MR. 2 GOLD[.'IAN: ll 0kay. Now, I 'm goi ng to g'ive you what's marked as exhibit 5, which is a number of text messages, and I'11 point you to the specific pages. Can we give the minority a copy? 5o let's go to Bates number 26, if we could. I don't think we have it here. Okay. We must be missing this one. There's a text message, perhaps you're not on it, between Ambassador VoIker and Ambassador Taylor, that refers to a call that you had with Secretary Perry and Ambassador Bolton on June L0th. Is that the call that you reference t2 where you spoke with Ambassador Bolton and Secretary Perry l3 about Ukraine matters? J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 a t4 A l5 MR. LUSKIN: Can you l6 MR. GOLDMAN: You know, l7 I believe so, but where is this? BY ]"IR. a 20 atready did 23 24 25 in A a GOLDMAN: But it doesn't necessarily matter because l9 22 I apologize, we don't have it here. t8 2t refer us to testify that in We June you had a had a conference A conference cal1. ca11. you call. Yeah. Describe what was discussed on that conference calt? A To the best of my recollection, I beI j eve Sec reta ry Perry laid out for Ambassador Bolton the not'ion that the 152 three of us would assist Ambassador Taylor on Ukraine and be 2 ^J 4 5 there to support as the, you know, relationship was moving forward, I thi nk Gi ul i ani was menti oned. I can't remember exactly that, you know, the President had wanted us to somehow involve Giuliani in the discussions. Again, I'm speculating Bolton might have said, you 6 know, l9 of involving other people. As I testified, I wasn't either. And the end result of the call was, t,,,e all f e1t, and I assume thi s i ncludes Ambassador Bolton as wel1, we all felt very comfortable with the strategy mov'ing forward, that we would all help on Ukraine, to be def i ned a Did you and Ambassador Volker and Secretary Perry ever develop a nickname for the three of you? A I think you're referring to the three amigos. a Yeah, who coi ned that? A I think we were all in Kyiv together, and someone walked up to US, and said, you look like the three amigos, we were all standing together, and I think that's where it came 20 f rom. 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 whatever, he wasn't a fan . of f i ked that 22 a A 23 MR. LUSKIN: We've 24 THE CHAIRMAN: 2t 25 You ki nd ni ckname, r i ght? I don't BY MR. all heard worse. I can attest to that. GOLDMAN: 153 a I So on that conference 2 meeting on 3 Ambassador Bolton? A 4 of a White House call that you recall with was there any djscussion That would have been on July June L0th. I think 5 the notion of a White 6 time we had a conversation with anybody about Ukraine, 7 because we were, you know, 8 boi 9 i this was probably raised every after this supposed tati on was i ssued, as you ki nd of descri bed And, agai n, I took i t as a seri ous i nvi tati on, you lerplate t. House meeting was i nvj 22 it as sort of a boilerplate invitation. We were trying to get a meeting scheduled, back to my original testimony, which I thought was important, for the two Presidents to meet. a And I didn't character-rze i t, and I thi nk but you would agree that there was no date on that invitation? A No, but that's, I would assume, typical when, you you have to coordinate a date. know, you don't a Ri ght. A Two busy people. And you had said you were surprjsed to see that a letter comi ng out of that l4ay 23rd meeti ng? A I was surprised given the conversation on May 23rd Z5 Yes. l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 l9 20 2l described 24 25 a J R'i une, have ght. Understood. Now, di d you, in the middle a Ukraine coordinatjon meeting in Sec reta ry of 154 I Perry's offi ce i n Washi ngton? 4 A We might have. I've been to Secretary Perry's office on a number of occasions for a number of matters related to Ukraine and unrelated to Ukraine because we work 5 very closely on European energy together. 2 a J 7 meet i ng? I don't. I A 8 9 Uh-huh. And you don't remember anything about that a 6 would have to see some stuff to refresh my memory. l9 at this point had you so let's say we're now i n mi d-J une. Are you aware of what Rudy Gi uI i ani ' s vi ews on Ukrai ne are at th'is poi nt? A I'm only aware of what I hear through Volker, primarily, because I'm not talking to Giuliani. a Did you, after the May 23rd meeting, did you pay a 1itt1e bit more attention to any public statements that Rudy i u1 i an i mi gh t have made? A No, I have not been f ollowi ng Mr . Gi uli an'i i n the press. I know you were excoriating me about that earlier, 20 but I 'm not. 2t a 22 MR. LUSKIN: We don't have those Z) MR. G0LDI'{AN: The l0 ll 12, 13 t4 15 t6 t7 l8 24 25 a Now, G get i t. If you go to page 5 of Exhibit 3, the tweets. exhibits up here. tweets? I f you don' t have i t, we can 0h, here. All ri ght. MR. LUSKIN: Whjch page? 155 I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 13 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 5. It's a tweet on June 2Lst of thi s year by Rudy Giufiani where I'11 just read it for the record. He says: New Pres of Ukraine sti11 silent on i nvesti gati on of Ukrai ni an i nterference i n 2015 electi on, and alleged B'iden bribery of President Pres Poroshenko. Time for leadership and'investigate both if you want to purge how Ukraine was abused by Hillary and 0bama people. So th'is i s one example of Rudy Gi u1i an j speaki ng out. Were you aware of these views by thjs time? A No. a So, again, not to belabor the point, but this is now after you were directed by President Trump to assume some leadership with Volker and Perry for Ukraine policy, and to consult wi th Rudy G'iuli an'i . Is that ri ght? A That's not right. If it were up to President Trump, we would have all walked out of there and done nothing on Ukrai ne. He wasn't i nterested i n Ukrai ne. He sai d, talk to Rudy. And as I testi fi ed earl j er, fi rst, Secretary Perry I believe, reached out to Giufiani, and secondly, Volker then took it from there. a In your opening statement, you said, on the bottom of page 7, that "President Trump directed those of us present at the meeting to talk to Mr. Giuliani, his personal attorney, about his concerns. It was apparent to at1 of us that the key to changi ng the Pres'ident's mi nd on Ukrai ne was MR. GOLDMAN: Page 156 I Mr. Giuliani." Is that that was your testimony earlier 5 today. Do you stand bY that? A Hold on just a second. I stand by that statement a Okay. And you did given what you testified earfier today, you did want to change the Presi dent's mi nd 6 about Ukrai ne, ri ght? 2 ) 4 7 8 9 A We wanted the Pres'ident to Zelensky. a Right. And meet wi the Presi dent's nd on Ukrai ne. changi ng ll "changing the President's mind on Ukraine, t2 you ' re say i l3 Zelensky, and to agree to l5 16 t7 l8 l9 20 mj ng 'i s you wanted h im s not 22 MR. G0LDMAN: I 'm aski ng 25 " you say I take i t what him. Is that ri ght? A That's ri ght. a 0kay. And the key to that meeting, as you testified, is 14r. Giuliani? A That's correct. a But you djdn't make any extra efforts to figure out what Mr. Giuliani's concerns, as referenced by the President in the May 23rd meeting, might have been? MR. LUSKIN: That' 24 5o when to be open to Pres i dent meet w'ith 2t 23 President so, we11, you just said the key to l0 t4 th hi s testi mony. a questi on. that Ambassador Volker and Secretary Perry took the lead with Mr. GiuIiani. At'4BASSAD0R S0NDLAND: My testimony was BY NR. GOLDMAN: 157 a 2 a J Understood. But djd you make any efforts to ascertain what Mr. Giuliani's concerns May 23 rd A 4 were af ter thi s meet i ng? I don't recall making any but I efforts. I can't say for 8 t reca1l that I did anything other than wait for Perry and Volker to get back. a How frequently in the weeks after that meeti ng did you speak wi th let's j ust do i t one at a time, Ambassador 9 Volker about Mr. 5 6 7 100 percent certa'in, A a 10 ll t2 Gi u1 i ani I don't Di don' ? remember. d you speak to h'im a t al l the month of abou t l'lr. G'iuli ani i n June? 20 A I think he generally kept me informed that he was trying to get to the bottom of what Mr. Giuliani wanted, and I never heard anythi ng defi ni tj ve unti 1 later. a When later? A I don't remember the day. I told you i t was sort of a con t'i nuum. O We'11 try to pjn a tjme on it as we refresh your recollection. And is that similar to the conversations you 2t had l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 22 23 24 25 with Secretary Perry? A I th'ink I was spendi ng more of my t jme wi th Secretary Perry on unrelated matters unrelated to Ukra'ine. a Secretary Perry was focused on some considerations'in Ukra'ine, right? of the energy 158 A 1 2 Eu rope, a J 4 A a A a 6 7 8 A a A a ll t2 13 over . And that's a very significant issue in Ukraine, It is. right? Yes. And so Naflogaz, for example, is the state-run Yes. So that One was a focus But you never heard Rudy Giuliani express any MR. LUSKIN: Are you J of Secretary Perry's, right? of many. concerns about Naftogaz, did l5 l6 all energy company, correct? l0 t4 yeah considerations ene r gy 5 9 He was focused on energy You? talking about in the period of une? I'm talking about at all. S0NDLAND: I don't reca11. t7 MR. G0LDMAN: 18 At'4BASSAD0R BY MR. l9 GOLDMAN: 23 if you can turn to page 36 if we have that one, yes, we do of the text messages. So if you look at 6/26/L9 at 3:48 p.m., Ambassador Taylor writes and this is a group that, at the top, you see that you created a group, 24 Gordon and Bi 1 1 . 20 21 22 25 a A So Uh-huh. 159 I 2 J a But thi s i s Kurt Volker' s text messages. 5o i t's A a Must be, yeah. you, Volker and Bi 1t Taylor. Is that ri ght? 7 Okay. 5o Bi 11 Taylor wri tes: Gordon, you mi ght not have seen the message from George Kent on the high side that te11s us that senior levels at the White House said that that the visit is not happening any time soon. Very 8 discouraging. Any chance you can turn this around? If not, 4 5 6 t9 I don't think a senior call wjth the Ukrainians on Friday, as your staff is suggesting, makes sense. Your thoughts. And then two lines on down, you write back: This is Vindman, and'is being fixed. Do you reca11 -- this is June 25th, what you meant by or what you did after receiving this in order to fix it? A I don't recall exactly, but I do recalt that Lieutenant Cotonel Vindman was against a call per se. He was never specific about why. And I'm speculating, I might have called Dr. Hj11, I might have ca11ed the State Department and asked for someone to look into the matter, but I don't 20 remember 9 10 ll t2 13 t4 l5 l6 l7 l8 2t 22 23 24 25 a exactly. Okay. And jf you go to 42 at the top, you just say: "Please call. Urgent. Thanks." This is a text exchange wi th Kurt Volker. Thj s j s around a possi b1e conference call that you had with Ambassador Volker, Ambassador Taytor, and Secretary Perry, that I asked you 160 earlier. I about 2 where you Do you recall that J MR. LUSKI N : 4 MR. G0LDMAN: Around 5 AI4BASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 6 9 l0 ll t2 Around the the time, yeah. Sorry. 0h, you mean the one with Ambassador Bolton? BY MR. 7 8 conference ca11, again, a A a A a GOLDMAN: is later in the month. oh, I'm sorry, that's July L0th. 0kay. Th'is is No, it's at the top. It's June 28. 0h , J une 28th. I'm try'ing to ref resh your recollecti on as to or not you remember anythi ng more about a conference No, th"is l3 whether t4 call that you might have had with the Ambassador Volker, l5 Ambassador l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 A a Taylor, and Secretary Perry on June 28th? I don't. I do not recall. And whether you would have patched in President Zelensky? A remember a I mi ght have, but I don't agai n, I don't the contents of that cal1. Are you aware of a Ukraine-related conference in at the beginning of JulY? A Is that the one that Ambassador Volker attended? I think he attended something in Toronto. a Do you know i f George Kent attended? Toronto 161 I A I don't. 2 a Di a J don' you have t any know. conversations do you know with President Zelensky there? I believer he reported back that they had a meeting, whether Ambassador Volker met A 4 5 d I yes. lt a What did he report back to you? A i thi nk he reported that 'i t was a good meeti ng. a Did you speak to him before that? A We11, I spoke to him before he went to Toronto at some point, I don't know when. a Did you know when he intended to speak to President t2 Zelensky about? 6 7 8 9 l0 l3 A I think they were just going to get together and t4 keep the relati onshi p goi ng. l5 a We1l, you said at every meeting you discussed the Whi te House vi si t? A Always. a Ri ght. A I'm sure they tatked about that, too, because the Ukrainians would bring it up. a And did you know by thi s poi nt whether or not there was any di scussion wi th the Ukraini ans, whether i t's President Zelensky or h'is senior offjc'ia1s, about any conditions for a White House meeting by the early July? A Early July. 5o let's see so I'm looking here at l6 l7 l8 t9 20 2l 22 Z) 24 25 162 1 2 J 4 5 6 the texts. a So they are a little out of order because A Thi s i s now when Gi u1 i ani and Yermak met i n Madri d a No, no. Don't look at the texts because it's not related I didn't ask you to look at the text. I'm just asking about this July 2nd or 3rd meeting in Toronto between 7 Volker and ZeIensky, and whether you, by that point, whether 8 you 9 or others, but speci fi l0 ll t2 l3 l4 recall having any conversations with Ambassador Volker, ca11y Ambassador Volker, about any conditions for the White House meeting? A We11, at some point, and again, I don't remember the timeframe. At Some point this press statement was a condition of the White House meeting. a Rlght. That was in August, and we'11 get to that. l5 But I'm just trying to understand the time 1ine, because 16 have said t7 point' the i nvesti gations became 1i nked to the Whi te House meeti ng. l8 that some The press statement, yeah, the press statement 20 linked to the White House meeting. And the 2t statement 22 one 23 conti 24 25 Is cor rect? A l9 that you remember, at you that press included the most laden press statement was the mentioned the 2015 and the Burjsma investigations nuum. a A was 0kay. You know, but there were many versions of it. 163 a And other than the press statement, you don't 3 -- is it your testimony here today that prior to the press statement, and I want to be very clear 4 about thi s. 2 5 remember whether A a Okay. l0 prior to the press statement you had no awareness that the Whi te House vi si t was cond'i ti oned at all on whether or not Ukraine pursued any investigations? A I don't reca11 that at all. Again, I viewed an unconditional invitation, so I thought we were done. We ll couldn't get a meeting scheduled. Then the press statement, t2 that sajd, pursuing corruption. Then the press statement began to have ornaments hung on it. That was the continuum as I recall jt. a Alt right. Let's keep going through the texts. Go back to page 36. A Which page? I'm sorry. a Page 35. If you look near the bottom, starting with 7/7 at 2:L5. A 7/7. Okay. a Sorry, the 2:34. A Yeah. a Ambassador Volker writes: "Gordon, maybe we can talk E. l'lulvaney on l"londay by phone, Kurt. " Do you know what that was in relation to? 6 7 8 9 l3 14 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 That which was an innocuous press statement 164 I 2 I'm speculating it might have been trying to Mulvaney to help wjth the meeting. A get ll a Wh i ch meet'i ng? A The Zelensky White House meeting. a Okay. And what did you reca11 speaking? A 0r a ca11. I mean, again, I don't remember exactly what I think we were, you know, we were trying to push at every possible place we could push to get this done, because we were losi ng credl bi 1i ty wi th the Ukrai ni ans. a I understand, and i t's clear - A After the invitatjon came out, because they took it t2 seri ously. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 l8 O Right. And now we're 6 weeks later -A Yes. a And there's been no date set. A No. There hadn't even been a phone ca1l. The phone call never occurred until July 25th. a And explain the importance of the phone call at t9 thi s poi nt? l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 20 2t 22 23 24 25 I deal with, every country with which I dea1, direct ca11s from the President of the United States to the leader of the country and 0va1 visits are always valued, especi a1ly wi th, as you descri bed 'it, a new fledgling President, who just got elected, wants to establ i sh legi ti macy. So havi ng Presi dent Trump call hi m, A With every country that 165 I 2 J 4 5 if it was for no purpose other than to say he11o, was valued. But then they go to the press, they say, I just spoke to the President of the United States, and it gives them legitimacy. And the 0va1 js the sine qua non. a Right. And so whether it was on this date or even 6 otherwise, obviously, you reference a conversation with 7 Mulvaney. Did you have a conversation with Mr. Mulvaney l0 vjsit for President Zetensky? A I don't recall. All I can telI you is Mulvaney was almost impossible to get a hold of. He rarely responded to ll emails and almost never returned phone ca11s. 8 9 t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 18 l9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 about a White House a So why would Ambassador Volker be asking you to talk about Mulvaney? A Because he figured I'd have a better chance of getting him than he would. a You don't have a recollection of A We may have connected. I don't recall. a You don't recatl? A a I don't recall. And you don't recall the substance of any conversati on j th Mr. l'lulvaney that you may have had about a Whi te House vi si t? A I don't know the date, but I'm sure at some point, I had a phone conversation, or I may have run into Mr. Mulvaney i n the Whi te House, hav'ing been there f or w 166 anothe r reason, and asking, you know, why don't we have the 2 meet j ng yet? J thi nk I got a defi ni tive answer, other than, we' re worki ng 4 it. 1 5 a He Why don't we have didn't te11 you at the phone call? And I don't any poi 6 needs these i nvesti gati ons i n order 7 vi si t? 8 9 A nt that the Presi dent to have a White House That was never 1 i nked. That was only speci fi cally brought into the press statement for a brief period of l0 through Mr. Gjuliani when we were negotiating a press l1 statement. time l3 'if another wi tness were to testi f y that you relayed the substance of a conversat'ion that you had with t4 Mr. Mulvaney, where you indicated that you had an agreement t2 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 a on So visit as long as you got an investigation 'in early July, are you saying that that witness would not be telling the truth? A That I do not recall at all. a And if there was a memorialization of that witness' perspective and corroborates their testimony, are you saying that that testimony would be inaccurate? A I'm saying I don't have any recollection about an investigation. The only thing that I have testified to is that the two items were to be mentioned in the press statement at one point during the press statement on a White House 167 1 2 negoti ati ons, whi ch were conducted between Volker and, as I said, I , Gi uI i ani , gave input. 6 to page 37, please. Let me go to July 2Lst at L:45 a.m. And I'tI read it, Bitt Taylor writes: "Gordon, one thing Kurt and i talked about yesterday was Sasha Danylyuk's point that President Zelensky i s sens'i tive 7 about Ukrajne being taken seriously, not merely as J 4 5 a Can you go an t4 c reelecti on pol i ti cs. " And you respond. "Abso1ute1y, but we need to get to conversatjon started and the relati onshi p bu'i 1t i rrespecti ve of the pretext. I am worried about the alternative. " Now, let me ask you something. What do you think President Zelensky's sensitivity about being an instrument in Washington domestic reelection poli tics, as relayed to you on 15 July 2Lst, references? 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 j nstrument i n ngton domesti 2l I think President Zelensky, as a general prospect, did not want to get involved in U.S. election pol i t'ics, whi ch makes sense. a 0f course. What do you think he's referencing? A I don't know what he's referenci ng. a You have no idea, as you sit here, what he might be 22 referenci t6 t7 l8 l9 20 A Wash'i A 23 24 to 25 a1 keep We11, ng? pretext, I wanted the conversation going because at this point, we had When ready almost I said irrespectjve of the lost all credibitity with the Ukrai ni ans. 168 I Right. a And isn't the pretext the investigations t4 that the President wanted? A I think the pretext was the it was never the i nvesti gations, I heard i t was the press statement ' I 've always said thjs was about a press statement. a I understand what you've said, Ambassador Sondland. And I don't know whether you reviewed these text messages before or not, but your testimony today that the press statement was the fi rst that you heard about the investigation is enti rely inconsistent with the text messages that you were on. So why I'm showing you these text messages is that 'it may refresh your recollection that you actually did have conversat'ions about this before the press statement. And I wi tl ask you once aga'in, what could Presi dent Zelensky l5 possibly r6 reelection poli tics? 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll 12 l3 t7 A l8 wanted mean when he references Washington domest'ic I can't speculate what to keep the conversation Bitt Taylor was doing. going. t9 MR. LUSKIN: Can we have a m'inute? 20 MR. G0LDMAN: Yeah. 2l AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 22 please. 23 24 25 5o repeat your question again, a BY MR. GOLDI4AN: Let take a step back. me focused on the press statement, and You said you've been ultimately, what I 169 ani wanted 'in that press statement was a speci f i c mention of the jnvestigations into Burisma and the 2015 Mr. 2 Gi ul i l0 elections. Is that right? A That's what I understood through Volker because, remember, I hadn't met Gi u1 i ani at thi s poi nt. a Right, and we'11 get to that. But you understand that the press statement was something tangjble, but what -the substance that they wanted were these investigations? A What I understood was that breaking the logjam wjth getting the President to finally approve a Whjte House visit ll was a 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 public utterance by Zelensky, either through the press statement or through an interview or some other public means, that he was going to pursue transparency, corruption, and so on. It was later that the Burisma and the 2015 were added, by, apparently, Mr. Giuliani. a To the press statement itsetf? 2t itself. 0kay. So we can agree, you will agree, I think, that lvlr. G"iuli ani the condi tion by the time of the press statement di scussion, the condi tion for a Whi te House meeting was a press statement that included the jnitiation of 22 these i nvesti gati l7 l8 l9 20 A a To the press statement ons? 24 I believe, the most -- if I may use the world "egregiorJS, " version of the press statement, which was 25 then never 23 A That was, de1 i vered. 170 3 it wasn't delivered. But that addition WAS provided by l'lr. Giulian'i? It must have been because that's the only source it A 4 could have come from. I 2 5 6 7 8 9 l0 I understand a for clarification, I think what he's trying to say is the press statement was iterative, and that he doesn't reca1l at what point during that interview proceSs the speci fi c references to i nvesti gatj ons, i ncludi ng Buri sma and 20L6, were added to the MR. G0LDMAN: We'11 get to that. WeIl get to that. \,lR. LUSKIN: Just ll a t2 BY MR. GOLDMAN: But my last quest'ion, because our time is up, is before the discussion about this l3 did you or did you not t4 press statement whether Mr. Giuliani, as the representative know t9 of the President, per the President's instructions, condi ti oned a Whj te House meeti ng on i nvesti gati ons related to domesti c reelecti on po1 i ti cs? A That was Mr. Taylor's characteri zation. My only recollection i s that the Whi te House vi si t was condi tioned on 20 the press statement involving the 2015 and Burisma. That was 2t the only condi ti l5 l6 t7 18 MR. GOLDMAN: 22 23 the mi nor i a I think our time is up. We'11 yield to ty. BY MR. 24 25 on And CASTOR: there's a difference between a press statement 171 I and actual i nvesti gati ons, correct? A 2 3 to Thank the poi nt I 'm tryi ng make, not very eloquently. a 4 So i f anybody was thj s statement, 5 make 6 Ukrai ni ans 7 you. That's what I 'm tryi ng to get the Ukra'ini ans to that's dj fferent from getti ng the to make thi s statement and i ni ti ate an 'investigation. Is that correct? ll A That would be my assumption, yes. They are two di fferent thi ngs. a Were any other vehjcles for this ant'i-corruption, you know, the priori ty they had on anti -corruption di scussed, t2 other than a statement? Excuse 8 9 l0 l3 t4 l5 A a Explain your question. A Yes, me. Like was there another way to do this? Cou1d they have maybe gi ven an 'intervi ew? l6 exactly. One of the other alternatives, I l8 believe suggested by Mr. Giulianj through either Ambassador Volker or Secretary Perry, was just go on TV and say what l9 you' t7 re a 20 goi ng point in time that they rea11y wanted an investigations any 22 or they just 24 25 do. Okay. And from Giuliani or Volker, did you hear at 2l 23 to wanted the statement so they could move forward with the White House meeting? A I real1y don't know. a OkaY. 172 4 told shortly after the inauguration by someone in Zelensky's team'is that he was going to open up all of the things that were shut down under Poroshenko, and as the person put i t, let the 1i ght shi ne i n or someth'ing to 5 that effect. 6 a 1 2 J 7 A was He had issues with Lutsenko, who is the prosecutor general, correct? 9 A a l0 A ll team. 8 I Who had i ssues wi The new th Lutsenko? Presjdent, Zelensky. I believ e he considered him part of Ri ght. Poroshenko's Yes. And so opening up many of the matters l3 that Lutsenko had been looking into, that was far broader than just these t4 two narrow i ssues, correct? t2 a t7 I'm speculati ng, but I thi nk that's true. In July 25th, when you were meeting with Pres'ident Zelensky, did the topic of aid come up and the delay or the l8 hotd on the aid? l5 l6 A a 20 d. I don't recal1 that. That would have been a pretty touchy subject, and I don't remember 2t that being brought t9 22 23 24 25 A I don't bef i eve i t di up. to the best of your knowledge, when d1d Ukrainians realize that the aid was being held up? A I don't know. But as I understood 'it f rom Ambassador Volker, or Ambassador Taylor, it was quite a while a And 173 the aid was instructed to be held up, and when I between when 2 the Ukra'in'ians actually a 5 4 t had been held up. 0kay. And at some point, it became a news story, d j scovered i do you remember that? 7 A At some point. a 0kay. So I'm going to make as exhibit are we up to 6? Seven. Lucky number 7. Do you guys have jt? Do you 8 want i t? 5 6 A 9 0kay. nori ty Exhi bi l0 IMi ll was marked BY MR. t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 for t No. 7 i denti fi cati on. l CASTOR: a I should probably put a sticker on it. A This was on August 29th? a Thjs is on August 28th, a Politico story with the headl i ne: Trump holds up Ukrai ne mi 1 i tary ai d meant to confront Russia. Do you know if the holdup in the aid was reported pri or to thj s? A I don't know when I learned about it. I didn't see thls article untjl just now. di d Volker communi cate to you at a Do you know 'if point that the Ukrainians learned about -A I think the first time I heard that the aid was being held up was when Taylor, I believe, sent a text saying he had heard that aid was going to be held up. And I don't some 174 t2 of that text. a I think it's in a text pack, a text package, which is exhibit 5. I think it's the last page, if I'm correct. A Okay. a So on September 8th at L2:37 p.m. Taylor do you need more time to read it or are you with me? A I 'm sor ry. Go ahead. a Are you wi th me on A What i s i t that you want me to read? a I'm referri ng you to these texts. A What page are they on? a Fifty-three. The last page of the pack, I think I l3 said. I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 reca11 the date A a A a Okay. These are Ri September. ght. Okay. Got i t. Okay. 0kay. So at L2:37 p.m. Bill Taylor texted: The nightmare is they give the interview and don't get the securi ty assi stance. The Russi ans love i t. And then, you know, you request that they initiate, you know, a ca11. And then Bill Taylor says at L2:.3L, the message to the Ukrainians, and of course, the Russians, we send with the dec'ision on securi ty assi stance i s key, wi th the hold we already shaken their faith in us. MR. LUSKIN: Where is the already shaken the faith 175 CASTOR: L2:3L. I 1"1R. 2 AMBASSADOR J MR. G0LDMAN: 4 MR. CASTOR: The 5 AMBASSADOR 8 Okay. Sorry, what page are you on? last page 53. CASTOR: Okay. And then Bill Taylor says, counting on you to be ri ght about thi s. l0 A a ll zeroed Got i t. Rl ght. Is this the time when Ambassador Taylor in on the question? A I mean, I believe what this MR. LUSKIN: Wa'it, can you clarify t2 13 becomes what question you're talki ng about here. l5 MR. CASTOR: The l6 AMBASSADOR t7 mean, I think l8 that, sometime a A a 20 2t 22 23 some 24 up? hold in the aid. SONDLAND: The we knew in BY MR. l9 25 Got j t. a 9 t4 Got i t. of the pack, SONDLAND: Okay. Got i t. BY MR. 6 7 SONDLAND: that the aid was held up earlier CASTOR: aid was held aid was held up, but at aware that the ajd was held The Ambassador knew the Ri up? ght. point the Ukrainians became A than Ju1y. You knew the Ri hold in the aid. Yeah, I ght. 176 1 a And then Ambassador Taylor became aware, and I 2 think he communicated that, as I understand. At 3 the Ambassador some point communicated 6 I think the Ambassador communicated that the aid was held up in July, but he didn't know why. a Correct. But at some point, the Ambassador learned 7 the Ukrai ni ans learned. 4 5 A I see. 8 A 9 MR. GOLDMAN: l0 ll t2 l3 t4 Okay. Is that a question? Sorry. MR. CAST0R: What' s that? MR. G0LDMAN: Is that a question? MR. CASTOR: This is the backdrop of what we're di scussi ng here. MR. G0LDMAN: We11, do you know l5 statement and he said okay. l6 BY MR. that? You just made a CASTOR: 19 started this out by saying, when you met on July 25th with President Zelensky, the aid had been on hold for a couple week by that point in time. You testified, 20 correct t7 l8 a We11, we 2l if I'm wrong, that it djdn't appear that the Ukrainians knew the aid was being held at that point, 22 co r rec t? 23 24 25 me A I wasn't aware that theY knew. a Okay. And then I asked you, when did they become aware to the best of your knowledge, and I think you said 177 I that A 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 Taylor notified Ambassador you? Taylor notified me. I don't know i f the it at that point a 0h, okay. My questi on i s, when did you learn that the Ukrainians learned? Is that f air? I mean, i s that A No, that's a SorrY. A I understand the question. The question is when did I learn that the Ukrainians learned? Ukrainians were aware of a 10 Yes. don't recall exactly when I learned that AI ll t2 Ambassador the Ukrai ni ans learned. think we can all agree by the time there was a Politico report - a I l5 A Eve t6 a t7 A Yeah. l8 a Getting back to Taylor's concerns on the 9th, which l3 t4 l9 you 20 i 2t 22 23 24 25 know ryone everyone would have known? , he ref e rences 'i n the i n te rv i ew. nterv'iew he was ref erenci A Do you know wha ng? I thi nk th'is was the press statement had now morphed into some kind of an interview that President Zelensky would give to a TV station. a 0kay. A And that that would replace the press statement. t 178 a I 2 And do you know where that interview would have occurred? 3 A 4 a 5 A 6 0kay. I don't. 0r on what network? I don't know, but something Presjdent Trump would obviously see. 7 a Okay. 8 A F0X. 0n Tucker. 9 MR. BITAR: I want to make sure the reporters got alt MR. MCDERM0TT: l0 1l t2 l3 that. laughi ng i n MR. the room. CAST0R: But not by Mr. Castor. BY MR. t4 Let the record reflect there's lots of CASTOR: 15 a The L2:34 a. m. text. l6 A Yes. l7 a Where l8 t9 20 Taylor says: Counting on you to be right about th'is i ntervi ew, A a Gordon? Yes. Do you remember, had you been had you been 24 to the Ambassador like, 1ook, we'11 go from the statement to the jnterview and we'11 be all good? A I thlnk what that refers to, and I'm trying to reca11 as best I can, that someone had to move first before z5 the other moved. So the question was, would the White 2l 22 23 advocating House 179 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 r0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 l7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 invitation be forthcoming before the intervjew or after the jnterview? And I think what I was saying there was, give the jnterview, and I'm sure the White House will then respond with an inv'itation. And I think what Ambassador Taylor was saying was, are you sure? And I'm saying, [o, I'm not sure. I just assume. a A Okay. I don't know'if I'm right. 180 I 12:25 p.m. l BY MR. 2 CASTOR: J a And then Taylor 4 A L2:47. at L2:47 7 says: "I think it's crazy to withhold security assi stance f or help with a pol jtical campa'ign." So just a couple texts ago it was a discussion of the 8 interview. 5 6 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 l7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 a A a maybe That was the alarming text. Okay. And so is that why you did you feel that there was a di sconnect? that is the first time that I No. That is speculated that now this aid was actually being held up in order to do this political thing, and that's when I called President Trump and got the answer I got. a And you got the definitive answer from him that he di dn' t want anythi ng? A I got what he told me, yes. a He wanted nothing, I think is A I want nothing. a Okay. And then it seems to me, and maybe I missed this, but it seems to me then there isn't a clear next A with you and the Ambassador. You send this relatively long text and it sort of sounds like it's well - thought-out. Di d that end i t? communication 181 5 A Well no. What ended it was I sajd: I suggest you call the Secretary a Ri ght. A because this is your portfolio. Call the Secretary. And he said: I agree. And I never heard 6 anythi ng further. I 2 J 4 9 a A a l0 tifted? ll A a 7 8 t2 Do you know I don't. And then Cor jt if he called the Secretary? became moot, because the aid was rect. Okay. Subsequent to that di ffi cult peri od, di d you l3 ever have any communications with the Ambassador about what t4 happened there? l9 A I -- my best recollectjon is that once the aid hold was tifted we were out of the woods and we were back to what's it going to take to get the White House meeting. a Okay. Between the 9th and all this news breaking, which happened around the 22nd or 23rd of September, did you 20 have any l5 l6 l7 l8 23 further discussions with the Ambassador about a statement or a news interview? A I think I believe and, again, best of my recollection, was that was when the meeting morphed into 24 Unjted Nations meeting. 2l 22 25 a 0kay. the 182 1 2 A So I was disappointed, because House meeting would have been far I thought the White more impactful and 6 for President Zelensky, but the decision was made above my pay grade to do thjs at the United Nations sometime in late September. a 0kay. And that took the place of the Wh'i te House 7 meet i ng? J 4 5 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 important recall, the two Presidents joked at that meeting: You invited me to the White House, I sti1l don't have a date. This was President Zelensky saying to President Trump. a Ri ght. A Which was in the media. The press was in the room at the time. President Trump said, I'm working on it, and smiled, was the end of that. There sti11 hasn't been an 0va1 meeting, to the best of my knowledge. a Right. I think we would know. Have you had, since this story broke, have you had any communications with Ambassador Taylor about this topic? A I don't reca11 talking to Ambassador Taylor after the I got the phone call from the White House about the I won't swear to i t, but whi stleblower complai nt. I 'm not I don't believe I've had any communications with him. a I want to turn to the text pack again, the Bates number 37, and refer you to July 2Lst at L:45 a.m. A We11, there stitl has as you 183 I Bi11 Taylor writes: "Gordon, one thing Kurt and I J talked about yesterday was Danylyuk's point Zelensky js sensitive about Ukraine being taken seriously, not merely 4 an instrument in Washington politics. 2 as " t9 is what I want to ask you about, 7/2L at 4:45 a.m.: "Absolutely. But we need to get the conversation started and the relationship built, irrespective of pretext. " A Uh-huh. a "I'm worried about the alternative." Could you just tel1 us what you meant by pretext? A WeI1, the pretext being the agreed-upon interview or the agreed-upon press statement. We just need to get by 'i t so that the two can meet, because, agai n, i t was back to once they meet, all of this will be fixed. a Okay. A 5o let's not argue over the form of what the you know, the press statement conditjon is as long as it's or the i nterv'iew, let's j ust get j t done so they can meet. 20 That was my point. 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 And then your response 2t a 22 alternat'ive. 23 24 25 Okay. And then you saj d: " I 'm worrj ed about the " A The alternative js no engagement and lack of credibility with the Ukrainjans, because now it's 2 months past when the i nvi tati on. Agai n, they took that i nvi tatj on 184 I very seriously. Even though we may throw those around like 2 candy, they 6 didn't read it as that. They read a personal letter f rom the President of the Un'i ted States saying: I'm inviting you to the White House, let's set a date. And the cal t hadn ' t even occu r red yet . So a Then Taylor says: "So the call tomorrow can be a 7 pos'i J 4 5 8 9 l0 ll t'ive A step ." That, I believe, was when the ca'lI was set for the 20th, which was then taken down. 0kay. I see. Okay. Among the U.S. officials communicating with the Ukraine a t2 on a regutar bas'is, whether that be yourself or l3 Volker or Secretary Perry, Ambassador Taylor, who on these t4 issues was doing most of the talking l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 A O Taylor, number Ambassador for the Un'ited States? one, and then Volker, number two. 0n these issues, about the statement and the White House meeti ng? that all of the and I think this was Ambassador Volker's habi t, that whenever he communi cated wi th the Ukrainians he did it in coordination with Ambassador A I assume 22 Taylor, since he's the ambassador on the ground. a Do you think the Ukrainians trusted Ambassador 23 Volker? 2t 24 25 A a I bel i eve they dj d. And he had developed a rapport with some of them, 185 I such as Yermak? A a Yes, I thi nk they 4 A From 5 a And he's someone that's acted wi th i ntegri 2 J And he 1 i ked hi was doi ng an effecti ve perspective, he my m j ob? was ty, as l0 far as you know? A Yes. a Both personal and professional? A Yes. O And you have acted with integrity, both personal ll and professional, 6 7 8 9 l5 A a A a t6 such as Mr. 17 tried to do your best to l8 Uni t2 l3 t4 l9 20 2l 22 Z) 24 25 I wjth these matters? have. And I in the best interests of the United States? have. And to the extent that Gi u1 i non-U. S. Government actors ani i nserted themselves i nto thi s, you've push for the best outcome for the ted States? A Correct, which I thought was a meeting between the Presi dents. a A a A a And Mr. Volker was doing the same thing? Correct. And Ambassador Taylor was doing the same thing? Yes. Do you know if Ambassador Taylor ever tried to talk 186 J to the Secretary about gettlng Giuliani out of this mix? A I don't know. a 0kay. Did you ever ask the Ambassador or did 4 Ambassador - - I 2 5 6 7 8 9 A I d'idn't. The only t'ime I suggested that Mr. Taylor talk to the Secretary a Because Rudy Gi ul i ani has President, but so A a was Cor does text to him. a good rapport wi th in my the the Secretary rect. l9 to the Secretary about thjs, was that ever considered an alternative? Maybe the Secretary should talk to the President and say, "Let us handle thi s"? A It would have been an alternative. I don't know if i t ever occur red. a Okay. It never -A I don't know if it ever occurred. a How frequently did you talk with or do you talk wi th the Secretary? A I communicate with him fairly regularly, either 20 th rough Li l0 1l t2 13 l4 l5 l6 t7 l8 2t 22 a And so going sa Kenna or di rectly. 0kay. And by fairly regularly, is that weekly monthly? 23 A 24 a 25 A Probably weekly Okay. And he's usualty responsive to your Ei ther di rectly or through Li sa, yeah. or 187 2 a ability A Okay. And Ambassador Taylor has a pretty good l8 I don't know. He certainly could get through to the Secretary if he needed to, but I don't know what their a In the wake of Ambassador Yovanov'itch bei ng called home, were you a part of the discussion about having Ambassador Taylor go out to be the Charge? A I didn't know Ambassador Taylor untjl he was there. a 0kay. 5o you were not part of the discuss'ion of A Not that I remember. a What can you tett us about the when you first learned that there was an effort afoot to remove Ambassador Yovanovitch or reca1l her early? A What's the question? When did I learn it? a Yeah, when d'id you learn that there was a movement to oust her? A I don't remember. I just remember that there were a lot of rumors swirting around in my mission that she was l9 being given a hard time J 4 5 6 7 8 9 t0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 20 2l 22. 23 24 25 a A O A and Okay. Yeah. or before? the fi rst time I really WeI1, i t was probably met Ambassador Yovanovi tch was when I went to Odessa, whi ch would have been in February of '19. So i t probably was after Was that after t"larch of ' 2 019 188 1 that. J Okay. And before the removal of or the recall of the Ambassador, did anyone consult you, given your role with 4 Ukrai ne? 2 5 6 7 8 9 a A a A a No. Do you know if anyone consulted Ambassador Volker? I don't know. Did you have any communication with Ambassador Volker about Ambassador Yovanovi tch's si tuati on? ll I think Ambassador Volker anecdotally said he's very supportive of Ambassador Yovanovi tch and, yol'J know, 12 liked l0 l3 t4 15 A her. a know, Okay. So he was disappointed, too, as far as you that she was recalled? A I mean, i f he never expressed di sappo'intment to if he said he liked her and was supportive of her, 16 me, but t7 assume he would have been disappointed. I 20 a Okay. I th'ink you testi f i ed thi s morni ng about a conversatjon did you have any conversations with Ambassador Yovanovitch while she was going through this, the 2l period between March and her reca11, which was about l8 t9 22 23 24 25 that I did. i don't I could have, but I don't remember it' I seem to be the one people call when they have career problems. I don't know why. A recall it. You know, counsel mentioned 189 I a 2 A J in the a 4 5 Did Ambassador -- I do a lot of counseling with a lot of people, both public and private sector, about thejr careers. 0kay. Did Ambassador Yovanovitch tean on you for career counsel i ng? 7 remembe r 8 j 9 l0 ll t2 l3 l4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 have I the conversati on. We may A 6 ust don' O t don't remember. I honestly don't I 'm not denyi ng i t occurred. I remember. Okay. So to the best of your recollection, you never -- A It wasn't, you know, a momentous enough conve rsat'ion that I would have remembered i t a 0kay. You never encouraged her, to the best of your recollectjon, to tweet or something to that effect, support of the President? A Again, I don't would I swear L00 percent I di dn't, no, but I don' t I j ust don't remember i t. a That's all we're aski ng you, i s your best recollection as you s'it here today. A Yeah, I don't I don't I don' t remember i t. i th'ink I was writing reviews for all my employees at the tjme, so I was a little preoccupied. a Turning back to the question of whether any Ukrajnian official ever told you about the suggestion that they need to jnvestigate Biden, did that ever occur? . 190 I 2 5 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 18 t9 No. I believe, again, to the best of my recollection, I go back to the only thing that I reca11 was the press statement or a 1i ve i nterv'iew of some k'i nd .' And as you described it earfier, if the implication was an investigation, that that would actualty happen, I wasn't aware of that. I was aware that Gjuljani apparently wanted Burisma and 20L5 mentioned in one of those formats. That's what I remember. a I'd like to go through what you can remember of A , your communi A a A cati ons wi th Gi u1 i ani . Okay. fjrst Yeah. I befieve I You said the one occurred in was introduced August? to him electronically by Ambassador Volker around the very beginning of August, August Lst or 2nd or something 1ike that. a And you raised the prospect of potentially getting together, but that never occurred? A Yeah. I think Ambassador Volker, you know, introduced uS f ike, th'is 'is Gordon Sondland, our Ambassador 24 to the EU, he's helping me on Ukraine, something to that ef f ect. And Gi u1i an'i texted back: Great, would love to meet some time. And I thjnk I threw out a couple of dates that I we just never connected. I think we was in Washington or tried once or twice to meet personally, and it never 25 happened. 20 2l 22 23 191 t2 talk on the phone? Yes. i thi nk I parti ci pated i n one or two A con f e rence calls with Volker and Giuliani, and then I think I may have had one or two direct calls with him, and that was it. a And do you remember the dates of those calls? A Well, they would have been likely in August. a 0kay. So potential of five? A Someth i ng 1 i ke that a F'i ve ca11s? A Somethi ng 1 i ke that. a 0kay. And do you reca1l the specifics of any of l3 the catl I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll Did you ever a . s? 20 All I can recalf is the gist of every call was what was going to go jn the press statement. a 0kay. A It was solely retating to negotiating the press statement, where, you know, Volker had taken the lead on it, and then I poked my nose into it to see if I could broker some kind of a compromise so we could get moving on the White 2l House vi si t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 l9 A t. 22 a 23 those ca1ls? 24 A 25 And do you recall what words Rudy Giuliani used on Again, he kept repeating Burisma and 2016 election. He never mentjoned Biden to me on any call that I was on. 192 5 a Okay. i f at all poss'ible, I 'd 1i ke to break down each of the calls to the extent you can remember them. Is that something you can do, or do they all mush together? A They all mush together, because they were like Groundhog Day. They were the same subject matter in each 6 ca11. I 2 J 4 7 8 9 l0 0kay. a And did these calls last a long time or were they short? A a A A couple All of of minutes. them? t2 Yeah. We1l, maybe I don't know about the conference ca11s, but the ind'ividual ca1ls were a couple of l3 m'inutes t4 a A a parts of A ll l5 16 t7 at the most. Okay. And who was leading the discussion? Volker. 0kay. And maybe just describe what you can of these ca11s that you can any remember, 21 I think Volker was trying to get to the bottom of what was it that the President wanted to see from the Ukrainians in order to get the White House visit scheduled. And I think Giuliani kept saying it needs to be some kind of 22 a public utterance. l8 t9 20 23 24 25 I do reca11 that after he met with Yermak, apparently, in Madrid, he was far more Sanguine about Ukraine than prior to that meeting. Volker reported back to me that Giuliani 193 I was happy with 2 talked about. a J 4 that meeting. But I don't When was the beginning of know what they the meeting with Yermak in Madrid? Was it August? I don't know. I'd have to look it up. MR. NOBLE: Steve, I believe that was August 2nd. A 5 6 BY MR. CASTOR: 7 a A 8 9 a l0 ll A a 12 Beginning In of August, 2nd of August? Madrid? Yes. Yeah. Okay. And did you get a readout from that 13 Was anybody t4 A meeting? wjth Giuliani? I don't know. A11 I do know is that Volker 15 reported back that Rudy and Yermak had a great meeting and it t6 looks t7 22 a OkaY A That's what I heard. a Okay. 5o then these calls that you describe, the four or fjve, happened subsequent to that meeting? A Yeah, because I don't I didn't meet Giuliani until at least August 1, maybe August 2 or 3, by text. By 23 text. l8 l9 20 2t 24 25 1 a A i ke thi ngs are turni ng around. By Ri text ght. and then telephone? 194 I I this before 2 a again. J other than Burisma and 20L6? Did he use the I 4 5 6 And know asked you Do you remember any words A a that Rudy and I'11 ask it Gjuljan'i said name Bidens? I never heard B'iden. Okay. You never heard Rudy Giuliani mention the word "Biden"? t4 A I never heard him mention Biden. I'm not saying he di dn' t use i t. I never heard hi m say i t. a Okay. So 'in the you used the word "evolut j on, " I thi nk, of thi s story. A Conti nuum, yeah. a Continuum. In the early part of August, the Bidens hadn't entered the timeli ne yet, i n your mi nd? A I don't thi nk so. I don't thi nk the Bi dens had l5 entered the timeline while we were negotiating the press l6 statement. t7 2t a Okay. A Which was in the middle of August, I believe. a Okay. Did Volker ever te11 you about meetings had wi th Gi uI i ani ? A He might have, again, jn a very sort of good 22 meeting, Rudy's happy, Rudy's unhappy. Nothing definitive. 23 Again, I was focused on the White House meeting. That's all 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 13 l8 t9 20 24 25 I cared about at that Point. a Ri ght. he 195 2 A a J i nvesti 1 I had one mission, and that was my mission. Okay. Did you ever hear Volker talk gati ng the Bi dens? 6 that I can reca11. In these four or five conversations was there ever a resolution or was it sort of 7 base, 4 5 A a A 8 9 Bu r to, a ll August? A a l3 14 l5 t6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 Never, wi th Gi u1i ani always touching i sma, 2015, and then We just could never get a press statement agreed and then the whole idea got dropped. l0 t2 about Okay. And do you remember when in the month of to late August woutd be my guess. And was that the last time you spoke with Mr. Probably mid- Giuliani? A a A a A a the first A a I bet i eve so. Senator Johnson attended the Zelensky inauguration. I 'm sor ry? Senator Ron Johnson Yes. attended the Zelensky time you had No, I think I Okay. After 24 'inauguration, did 25 him or -- met the Was that Senator? met h'im you r inauguration. during my confirmation. confirmation but before the you have any parti cular relati onshi p wi th 196 I AWe mi ght have gotten together. I can't of the codels 2 he was on one J him on the Hi11. 4 conf i rmat i on, 5 6 a about any Did of He was very so I stayed you friendly i n touc ever have I in Brussels or a h remember i f may have seen helpful during my and . di scussi on wi th Senator Johnson these i ssues, such as i nvesti gati ng l8 A Well, I Burisma or 20L5? a A Yeah, I noticed in the media he had come out and said that he and I had a conversation on the phone about it. And he had said that I told him this is the media report, and I haven't discussed this with him since that media report that I had said there was a quid pro quo. And I don't remember telling him that, because I'm not sure I knew that at that po'int. I thi nk what I mi ght have done is I might have been speculating I hope there's no, I hope this isn't being held up for nefarious reasons. I thjnk we were having sort of a freeform discussjon t9 about what was going on, because he was very frustrated that 20 Zelensky 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 2t 22 23 24 25 still hadn't been to the White House. I was referring to my conversation with Senator Johnson on the phone. I beljeve it was the end of August sometime. a 0kay. lDi scussi on off the record. l AMBA5SAD0R S0NDLAND: 0h, yes, thank you. 197 The quid pro quo I 2 statement. BY MR. J a 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll referring to the aid, not a press CASTOR: And you had never thought there was a precondition to the aid. Is that correct? A Never, no. I mean, I was dismayed when it was held up, but I d'idn' t know why. a 5o to the extent there were any preconditions to anything, it was perhaps with the White House meeting, but not the aid? l8 I wasn't aware of it or I wasn't I don't recal1 bei ng aware of i t. a So your conversation with Senator Johnson was at the end of August, you think? A I believe it was the end of August. And then I believe he totd me he was going to be calling the Pres'ident to fi nd out why thi ngs weren't movi ng forward. a And did you talk to him as a followup after he did l9 that? t2 l3 l4 l5 l6 t7 A 20 2t A a Are you familiar with the came out Friday, 0ctober 4th, where Senator 22 that 23 ra'ised 24 25 I don't thi nk I this A Someone di d, no. Wa11 Street Journal story Johnson issue? Yeah. i think that's what flagged it for brought it to my attention. me. 198 I 2 did you ever do anything about that article, such as call the reporter or a And A a A J No. 6 or did you just There's so many storjes out there about what I allegedly did or d'idn't do. I can't chase every newspaper. 7 I 4 5 mean, call this Senator Johnson, has been a very bad experience 8 a 9 D1d you Fai r for me. enough. put out a statement yourself? No. I -- you know, there were implications that I 10 A ll was cooking all of this l3 Giuljani throughout the year when I only met him for the first time in August. I don't know how I could cook something up with someone I had t4 never met. t2 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 a A Have you I have up with Rudy talked to Senator Johnson since? not. But our relationship was always very cordial and friendly. O Okay. So you think Senator Johnson just misspoke? A I don't know. I'm not accusing him of misspeaking. I'm saying I don't know what basis I woutd have had to assert on that date that there was aid being held up jn return for a White House meeting. I don't know why I would know that at that point. I don't reca1l having been told that by then. O So you hadn't did you ever, jn the course of this, ever make a statement to the effect of, you know, we're 199 1 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 cutti ng a big check to the Ukraine, you know, what should we get for thi s? That's not something I would have sajd. I don't A that at all. Okay. So you've never made a statement relati ng a the ai d to condi ti ons that the Ukrai ne ought to compty wi th? I don't remember that, no. A But 'if someone suggested that you made that a statement, that would be out of your own character, you're remembe r sayi ng? ll A Yes. t2 a Okay. l3 Have you had any communications with Presi dent Zelensky since September 25th? t4 A l5 a l6 A The In In last time I spoke to him was in person. New York? New York, when he was with the President of the ted States. t7 Uni l8 a How about any other Ukrai ni an offi ci al? A I think I may have chatted with Mr. Yermak right after that meeting, at the meeting after Zelensky left, and I think that was about the end of it. a 0kay. So you haven't had any further communications wi th Ukrainians? A I think Mr. Yermak reached out to me by text, and I don't thi nk I responded. t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 200 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 Okay. Do you remember what he said to you? Hello, how are you? Something like that. Okay. And why didn't you resPond? a A a A I become I just didn't want to respond once the matter had contenti ous. Okay. Contenti ous wi th Yermak or content'ious here? No, oo, contentious with the White House. Because remember, I got the call from the White House about the wh'istleblower report at the Uni ted Nat'ions. 5o i t was all within a day or two of that meeting with Zelensky. So then I a A t2 got the call from the White House saying: Your name is in a whjstleblower and I just said, I'm not going to engage any l3 f ll urther. t7 still have a role in Ukraine policy? At this very second, ho, but I would like to conti nue i t, because I thi nk i t's cri ti cal. a 0kay. So is it fair to say since the September t8 25th and subsequent events, yotl've pushed the pause button t4 l5 l6 a A Do you 23 for yourself on your involvement? A For myself, because, fi rst of all, I've been consumed with preparing for these depositions and dealing with all of this other stuff. a Zelensky j s reportedly close w'ith an ol i garch wi th 24 the t9 20 2l 22 25 name of A Kolomoi sky. 201 a I 2 relati Kolomoisky. What do you know about his onshi p wi th hi m? 8 I onty know of 14r. Kolomoisky anecdotally, and the rap on him is that he's a bad guy and that I think I heard he had helped Zelensky at some point during his business career or with his campaign, but Zelensky was trying to distance himself from Kolomoisky because he knew that that was the best pathway forward for the country. That's what I had 9 hea a J 4 5 6 7 A rd anecdotal ly . l3 a 0kay. In your discussion with State Department offi cj aIs, Nati onal Securi ty Counci 1 offi ci a1s, di d anyone raise concerns that we have to evaluate whether Zelensky will be h jmself caught up w'ith some of these oligarchs that are 14 you know, have corrupt reputations? l0 ll t2 A l6 Yeah. I mean, to stay i n an unclassi fi ed answer, I think there's always concern about any leader of any country l7 where there are ol i garchs. l5 l8 a t9 and we 0kay. We are certainly 'in an unctassified setting don't want you to go into a classified setting. I just 20 MR. LUSKIN: 2t MR. CASTOR: Absolutely. 22 MR. LUSKIN a 1i ttle concerned that the way you framed the question might cate hi s shari ng i nformati on that shouldn' t be shared 23 i mpl i 24 th'is setti 25 was ng. l'lR. CASTOR: Thank you. in 202 BY MR. I 2 3 4 CASTOR: draft statement that Yermak and Ambassador Volker were kicking around, do you know if Giuliani ever inserted himself jnto that communication where he was talking a With the 8 directly to Yermak about it? A I don't know jf he was talking to Yermak about it, but I assume that Volker was getting his guidance from Giuliani, because Giuliani was the one that had to be 9 satisfied. 5 6 7 10 ll t2 13 l4 l5 l6 his feelings on the statement before he drafted that one-1iner at the end? A I mean, the only conversati on I have had wI th Volker -- I can't te11 you when or where -- was that there shouldn't be any preconditions, that, you know, we were having to negotiate this statement or interview to get a meeting that should have occurred w'ithout any preconditions. t7 l8 t9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 it a D'id Volker ever te11 you a A That was your view? I thi nk that was Volker's vi ew, Taylor's. I was everyone's view. a A a A a So that was Your view, too? My view. And Ambassador Taylor's and Volker's? Correct. this exercise with Yermak and kicking around a possible statement or a TV And so we're going through th'ink 203 'intervi ew solely because A a 2 J of the Gi uf iani i nvotvement? Apparently so. Other than the May 23rd meeti ng wi th the Pres'ident l0 talk to GiuIiani, have you ever heard the President refer to go talk to Giuljani? A Not to me. a 0kay. So that's the only time in your fjrsthand knowledge that the President referred people to Giuliani on thi s i ssue? A That's, the best of my recollection, was the only ll time. 4 5 6 7 8 9 where he said a And do you know 14 A l5 a I don't know. to Gi uI i an i ? t2 13 l6 t7 18 t9 jf the President referred Volker outsjde of your presence Was he speaki ng wi th the Presi dent, do you know? I don't believe he's ever met alone with A the Presi dent. a Okay. Di d any State Department offi cj als ever thei r concern to you about Ambassador Yovanovitch's 20 express 2t reca11? 22 A 23 in Brussels 24 capacity, and had heard that she was in jeopardy or something 25 to that effect, I think there are a couple of people in who knew her we1l, had served my mission with her in some and were very disappointed and expressed, you 204 I know, she's a great person and she doesn't deserve this, l2 to that effect. I don't remember who it was. It could have been my DCM, but I don't remember. a Anybody back in Washington? A Not that I can recall. a Were you aware that after the call transcript came out September 25th that there was an effort jnside the State Department to put out a statement of support for Yovanovitch? A Let me see if I get that stralght. You said after the transcript of the President's call with Zelensky was released there was an effort to do what? a Inside the State Department there were some career l3 Foreign Service folks 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll something A a t4 l5 0h. that were advocating the Secretary put a l8 of support out. A I didn't know. I think I read that in the newspaper, but I wouldn't have gotten that, because I'm not a t9 career -- l6 l7 statement O A a 20 Okay. 24 offi cer. Okay. So you weren't aware of any i ni ti ati ve inside the State Department to do something to signal that A I vaguety reca1l reading it in the paper or seeing 25 it 2t 22 23 I 'm not a career Forei gn Servi ce somewhere, but no one sent me anything internatly. 205 I 2 of Ambassador Yovanovi tch? Not to the best of my knowledge. So they didn't have an internal email or signal support J A 4 a 5 Okay. Did the State Department do anything to a didn't have a -- 6 A They 7 a 0kay. 8 A 9 may have. emai 1, MR . CASTOR: I ll Mr . Goldman. t2 MR. G0LDI4AN: r3 AMBASSADOR t4 lRecess.l l5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, l6 time is t7 Mr l8 MR. w'i . 'm sorry, my time on my expi red break. let's go back on the record. The th the majority. Nob1e, NOBLE you are recognized : Thank you, Chai rman NOBLE: Ambassador Sondland, a 2l attenti 22 was aski ng you about the on 'is Let's take a 5-minute 20 25 n, I wasn't pri vy to j t S0NDLAND: Thank you. BY MR. t9 24 Agai I didn't see it If you're telling me it's I didn't read it I don't remember that. l0 23 they I want to direct your to the end of August. And my colleague Mr. Castor Pofitico article that came out around August 28th whjch made public the freeze that the administration had put in place on the Ukrajnian security assistance. Do you recal1 that? 206 2 J I reca1l him describing it. Around that ti me, I bel i eve you test'i f i ed that you A O Yes, and Ambassador Volker and the Ukra'inians had dropped the idea 5 of doing a statement announcing the investigations that Rudy Giuliani wanted, specjfically Burisma and 20L5. Is that 6 ri ght? 4 7 A 8 fo rwa rd 9 a Yeah, I believe the Ukrainians didn't want to go possibility of . But you were sti11 discussing the 10 President Zelensky doing a public interview, possibly with ll news a l5 outlet, in which he would announce those investigations? A I think the Ukrainians mentioned to Volker that they were planning to do one and that they might incorporate some of those th'ings i n that i ntervi ew. a Okay. 5o at the time when the freeze became public l6 on August 28th and Ukra'ine presumably learned about that t7 freeze, they knew that the Americans were still pushing for l8 an announcement t2 l3 t4 t9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 of these investlgations. Is that right? I don't know when the Ukrainians found out. I A mean, I don't know when they would have made the connection. They might have learned before. They might have learned after the Potitico article. I have no idea. a We11, on August 28th it became public in the Pol i t'ico arti cle, correct? A Yeah. I see this Politico article, yeah. 207 a I 2 J actuatly sends Politico article to Mr. Volker and asks to speak with messages, on August 29th Andrey Yermak A a A a 4 5 6 7 8 Okay. And then I believe jn Mr. Volker's text the him. that a text I was on? I don't know i f that was a text that you were on. Was 0kay. But did you have any conversations with the Ukrainians or with Mr. Volker, Ambassador Volker, about the ll fact that this freeze had been put in place around this time? A I don't recall havi ng any. I'm not sayi ng i t didn't occur, but I don't recall having any. I think Volker t2 was handl i ng those conversatj ons. 9 l0 I'11 direct your attention to let's go to page 20 of the text messages, and jt's near the bottom on August 29th, 201.9, at 3 :05 a. m. A 3 :05? a Yeah. In the ljne above i t, Andrey Yermak says, " need to talk to you, " and then he sends a link to the Politico article from August 28th a So 20 A Yeah. 2t a l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 l9 22 poi nt to Ambassador Volker. the Ukrainians knew about the 5o presumably at that freeze, correct? 23 A Apparently. 24 a Did you have any conversations with Ambassador 25 Volker about that at that time? 208 8 in on the conversations relating to the freeze, you know, until close to, I believe, the Johnson conversation, the conversation with Senator Johnson. I don't know exactly what day. a That was August 30th, correct? A Yeah, I think so. a So but you learned about the freeze on July l.8th, when Bill Taylor texted you about the SVTC announcing 9 the freeze? A 2 J 4 5 6 7 A a l0 I don't Ri remember when I was brought ght. t4 July LSth and August 28th, did you have any you never had any conversations with the Ukrainians about the fact that the aid was trozen? A I don't recall having conversations with the l5 Ukrai ll t2 l3 Okay. So between l8 I recal1 was tryi ng to chase down the reason for the freeze, and I could never get a straight answer and I sort of gave up. a But you don't recal1 any conversations with the 19 Ukrainians about the freeze? l6 t7 A 20 2t n'ians. don' t What I won't swear to it, but I don't recal1, I . let's go to page 39 of the text messages. And I use the text messages, because I think they might be 22 a 23 want to 24 useful i n helpi ng refresh your recollecti 25 honestly A So 0kay. on 209 8 of locking down certajn dates. Do you see up here at the top. This is a conversation between Bill Taylor and Kurt Volker. 0n August 30th, 2019, at t2:L4, Bi 11 Taylor says: "Tri p canceled. " And then Volker says: "Hope VP0TUS keeps the bi1at" A Ri ght. "and tees up Whi te House vi si t. " a And then Volker says: "And hope Gordon and Perry sti11 9 goi ng. I 2 J 4 5 6 7 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 a and kind " And you respond: "I am going. Pompeo is speaking to to see if he can go." Is that the meeting in Warsaw for the World War II POTUS today commemoration? A Yeah. Thj s i s refreshi ng my memory. Yes, correct, l6 it is. a l7 attend the Warsaw commemorat'ion? l8 that I had heard was the hurricane. wanted to stay behind to oversee the hurricane issues. a President Trump was scheduled to meet with President Zelensky at that Warsaw meeting, right? A I bel i eve so, yes. a And did you attend? A I did. a And who else was there? l5 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 A 0kay. Do you know why The reason President Trump did not He 210 I 2 3 4 5 A a lot of people. I mean, for with A any meetings with President Zelensky during that A cast of O Huge bilat with Vice President Pence and a whole people. 7 for any conversations between President Pence and President Vice President Pence and 8 Presi dent Zelensky? 6 9 l0 ll Were you present 0nly the one in the big biIat. I don't believe there was any pu11-aside or any private conversation other than the bi g bi lateral meeti ng. A a 14 Okay. Do you reca1l any discussions around that time about the link between the White House v'is'i t and the push for a public announcement by the Ukrainians of the l5 investigat'ions Giuliani t2 l3 wanted? 20 I don't. I was focused more during that trip on a meeting that Pompeo and I had scheduled with the big four the new leaders of the EU. And when Pompeo leaders of couldn't go to Warsaw, I was worried that I had already set those meetings up for him and I to meet with the four new 2t leaders. l6 t7 l8 t9 22 23 24 25 A I wound up going with V1ce President Pence I sat in on the bilat. And then I came back to Brussels, I be1 i eve, and Pompeo came j ust f or the meet'ings wi th the bi g four from Washi ngton to Brussels. So 211 a I 2 And Senator Johnson, was he delegation to A a 3 4 I part of the U.S. Warsaw? t thi nk so, no. So it was around this time, though, it don' was reported 6 that you had the conversat'ion w'ith Senator Johnson in which he, at 1east, claimed that you told him there was a qu'id pro 7 quo. 5 A l3 Welt, that was his recollection, that wasn't mine, because I don't know that I would have known that then. a Do you recall the circumstances under whjch you spoke with Senator Johnson around thjs time, though? A I th'ink he reached out to me and sai d: Can we talk? And I called him, and he told me he was talking to the l4 Pres'ident the next 8 9 l0 ll t2 day. And I thi nk we were j ust havi ng sort t7 of a freeform conversation as to what was going on with Ukraine, He seemed to have a continuing interest in the same issues that I did. After we left Ukraine, you know, the l8 Ukrai ne i naugurati l5 l6 l9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 a Do you on, h€'d stayed i n touch. recall whether you and Senator Johnson di scussed the freeze on Ukrai ni an assi stance? A a A a 0n that August 30th call? Yes. We probably did. Do you reca11 what he him about it? said to you and you said to 212 I 2 J 4 A No, other than I do remember he said that he was going to call the President to see if he could get to the bottom of i t. a So it's been reported that he said that when, at 5 1east, you al1egedly linked the assistance with the 6 announcement by the Ukrainians of these investigations that 8 the Presi dent and Rudy Gi ul i ani wanted, Senator Johnson sai d he wi nced and hi s react'ion was: 0h, God , I don ' t want to see 9 those two 7 l0 ll t2 t3 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 th i ngs comb'i ned. Do you have any reason to doubt that that was Senator Johnson's reacti on to your phone call? I don't recall -- I don't recal1 the call going that way, because, again, I was trying to think of why would I have the bas'is to know that they were t i nked at that poi nt. I'm not sure I did have the basis to know that. I think we were both pipe dreaming or speculating as to why the aid stil1 hadn't been released, because I think Senator Johnson was a strong advocate of having the aid A 2t thout any further ado. a Okay. So that conversation with Senator Johnson was August 30th. I want to direct your attention to page 39 22 again t9 20 23 24 25 released immediately, wi of your text messages. A Okay. a And let's go to September lst. And the very September 1st at 1.2:08 p.m., Bill Taylor writes: "Are we now 213 I saying that security assistance and White House meeting are 2 condi J 4 ti oned on i nvesti gati ons? " You' re on thi s chai n, aren' t A a you? Yes. t2 that refresh your recollect'ion, that around this time you're aware of a possible linkage between the securi ty assi stance and the Whi te House meeti ng bei ng condj ti oned on the i nvesti gati ons that Rudy Gi ul i ani and the Pres'ident wanted the Ukrai ni ans to announce? A I think that was the beginning of when that allegation began to be made, because, again, I said, call me. I didn't want to do this by text. I wanted to have a l3 conversati on. 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll Does l5 to do it by text because there would then be a wri tten record of your d"iscussi on about the l6 quid pro quo? t7 A t4 a Did you not want 2t No. I a1 ready sai d that i n my openi ng statement. I do that all the time. a Does this refresh your recollection, though, that at teast around thjs time, you and Ambassador Volker and Ambassador Taylor were discussing at least the possibility of 22 a linkage between the White 23 and the investigations 24 announce? l8 l9 20 25 A House meeting and the assistance that the Ukrainians were supposed to I don't know that we were di scussi ng i t. I thj nk 214 1 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 that it rea11y came Ambassador a A a shocked to the fore when I got the text from Taylor a few days later. Well, it was over a week 1ater, correct? 0r a week later. So you said earlier in your testimony that you were when you got the later text mesSages from Ambassador Taylor where he linked the security assistance and the i nvest'igati onS, but you were aware at least f or over a week that, at least from Ambassador Taylor's perspective, this is exactly what was going on. t2 I testified earlier, every time I would ask various people, whether it was at the State Department or r3 elsewhere, what's going on, no one could give me a straight ll l4 l5 A Wel1, as answer. I mean, I heard it has to do with the fact that Europe i sn't putti ng up thei r share, 'it has to do wi th the 22 fact that they think there's an audit that needs to be done. I heard all kinds of reasons whY. I never got until Taylor sent me that text saying, I hope this isn't what's going on, when I made the phone call to the President, that's when the red light really went on for me. 0kay. We11, back here on September Lst, though, a 23 when Bi 24 assistance and White House meeting 25 i nvesti gati ons? l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2l 11 Taylor sai d " : "Are we sayi ng securi ty now a re cond i t i oned on 215 said: "Ca11 I You 2 Did you guys have J A We probably di d. 4 a Do you recal1 what was discussed during that A I 5 8 9 l0 ll t2 I a phone call? phone call? 6 7 me mean, if I had had a conversation the previous day I'm speculating now if I had had a conversation the previous day with Senator Johnson and we discussed the same issue, I might have continued that conversation: I hope this j sn't goi ng on. Agai n, f'm speculati ng, because I don't rea1ly reca11 exactly. 22 like you said, a week went by, and then all of a sudden I get this panicked text from Ambassador Taylor, and that's when I did my thing. Should I have done something earlier? Maybe. I djdn't. a I'm not asking you that. But around that time, though, this week, September Lst to September 9th, did you have your own concerns that there might be a linkage between the securi ty assi stance and the tn/h j te House meeti ng? Whi ch I betieve you said there already, in your mind, was a linkage between getti ng a Whi te House meet'ing i n exchange f or a 23 Ukrai nj an announcement on l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 l9 20 2t 24 25 And then, A a No, in exchange the i nvesti gati on. for the press statement. For the press statement? 216 1 2 J A a For the press statement. But the press statement was about the i nvesti gati ons, correct? 6 WeIl, all I can do is repeat to you what I heard through Ambassador Volker from Gi uli ani . That's the only Source this would have come from, because the President never 7 discussed 4 5 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 A it with any of us. to go through some of those text messages about the drafting of the statement and the evolution later on. But right now my question is, did you personally have concerns that there were these that the aid was being hetd up, the White House meeting was being withheld, until the Ukrain'ians did something that Giuf iani and the Pres'ident wanted, speci fi cally to announce these i nvesti gati ons? A As I said earf ier, the continuum a a A And we're going Grew? 20 in the text from Ambassador Taylor on I think it was the 9th of September. a Okay. And then in response to that, there was like 2l a 5-hour gap between 22 Taylor. l8 l9 23 24 25 grew and culminated when you wrote back to Ambassador to the last page. It's page 53. And so Ambassador Taylor sends you this text message at, at least marked here, L2:47 a.m.: "As I said on the phone, I think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help We can turn 217 ) th a pol i t'ica1 campai gn. " That suggests that ei ther you and he had had a telephone conversatjon about the linkage. Do you recalt that telephone 4 conversati I 2 5 wi A on? Either he and I had one or he and Volker had one. with somebody, because he was, you know, 6 He had one 7 coming 8 a Do you A a A O I don't recall. to that clearly conclus'ion. reca1l jf you had a telephone conversation 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 with him? I don't reca11. Okay. So and then you said in response to that, you tetephoned President Trump. Is that right? A That 'is cor rect. t7 that telephone conversatj on wi th President Trump, you djdn't ask the President di rectly i f l8 there was a quid pro quo, correct? l6 l9 20 21 22 23 24 25 a A Okay. Duri ng No. As I testified, I asked the question open ended, what do you want from Ukraine? a Presjdent Trump was the word "quid pro quo, A a That first person to use the " correct? is correct. I believe you test'ified that President Trump said he didn't want anything from Ukrajne. Is that correct? And 218 1 2 J 4 5 A a A a A That's what he said. Okay. But that wasn't true, correct? I'm just telling you what he said. But you knew that wasn't true? What I had heard were multiple rumors about what he 6 did or didn't want. That's why I wanted to ask the question 7 the way I did. 8 a Wel1, you heard that from Rudy Giuliani, that the l3 to announce i nvesti gati ons i nto 2016 and Burisma, right? We've been over this a number of times. A I heard that from Rudy Giuliani. I never heard it from the President. I am assuming Rudy Giuliani heard it from the President, but I don't know that. So I asked the 14 President: 9 10 ll t2 l5 l6 t7 l8 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 Presi dent wanted Ukrai ne What do you want? that, Giuliani has been goi ng around sayi ng, I 'JIl worki ng f or the Presi dent, I 'm his personal lawyer, I'm doing this on behalf of the a And you assumed because Rudy of the United States, correct? A That's why I went to the principal. a Okay. Fai r enough. But I bef i eve so Presi dent Trump sai d duri ng that call : I don't want anythi ng from Ukraine. But you also know that isn't true, because you've noW read the July 25th call readout, correct, where President Trump speci fi calty asks Presi dent Zelensky for, quote, "a favor." Is that right? President 219 A 1 Yes, but President Trump changes his mind on what 6 daily basis. I have no idea what he wanted on the day I called him. That's why I asked h jm the quest'ion. a 0kay. But on July 25th, at least, President Trump said: I want a favor, and specifically I want you to look into the Bidens and I want you to look into 2015 electjon 7 'i 2 J 4 5 he wants on a nterference, correct? AMBASSADOR 8 lDi scussi on 9 l0 ll t2 on just a second. off the record. l Yeah. Counsel I didn't know what the President had discussed with President Zelensky, because I never saw the transcript of the cal1. I testified to that. AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: BY I"IR . 13 a t4 Ri ght l5 25th, when the l6 that poi nt? t7 A NOBL E , : . But you learned it, I bel i eve, September call record was released by the Whi te House at In September, aAs l8 l9 SONDLAND: Hold you right. sit here today, you know what President Trump 20 A Today I 2l a said 22 A Today I know. 23 a Ri 24 A Today I know 25 a And today you know that President Trump asked to Pres'ident Zelensky. ght. I didn't know then. 220 President Zelensky A a 2 J 4 i for a favor. Correct. Specifically, to look into the Bidens and to look nto 2016 electi on i nterference. t4 is correct. I do know that today. And that's what Rudy Giuliani had essentially been pushi ng the Ukrai ni ans to i nclude 'in ei ther a publ i c statement or a med'ia appearance by President Zelensky? A He may or may not have, but not to me. a He used the word "Burisma" instead of A He always used the word "Burisma" and he always used the word "2015 election." Those are the only two things I heard f rom him. THE CHAIRMAN: Ambassador, I want to ask a further l5 question about the conversation you had w'ith the President, t6 where t7 and on 18 quid pro quo. Is that right? 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 A a That I thjnk you've testified you asked him what he wanted hjs own he repeatedly brought up no quid pro quo, no SONDLAND: That' s l9 AI"IBASSADOR 20 THE CHAIRNAN: You have been cor rect. not quoted in the paper in 21, the last 24 to 48 hours, but it has been represented by 22 multiple press outlets that you have told people that 23 24 25 when the President told you no quid pro quo, you djdn't know whether he was telling you the truth. Is that accurate? AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: My goal in asking the question, 221 I 7 Congressman, was to THE CHAIRMAN: respond No, I to Ambassador Taylor. understand that. But my questjon J is, it 4 purportedly has information from you that when the President has been represented in the newspaper by someone who 6 told you, no quid pro quo, no quid pro quo, that you couldn't verify that what he was telling you was the truth. Is that 7 cor rect? 5 8 9 l0 ll I could verify is that's what he sa'id. I don't know if it was the truth or it wasn't the truth. That's what he told me. AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: A11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. BY MR. t2 NOBLE: l5 a So, Ambassador Sondland, we're skipping around a 1ittle bit, but I want to go back to the July 10th White House meeting, and I just want to make sure we understand l6 your testjmony. l3 t4 20 Is i t your recollection that you d'idn't say anythi ng during the first part of the meeting to the effect that you had an agreement with Mick Mulvaney that if the Ukrainians committed to the investigations that Trump and Giuliani 2t wanted then Zelensky would get a White House meeting? t7 l8 l9 A 24 I don't recal1 ever having a conversation with Mr . l4ulvaney about that. I honestly don't. I 've had very, very few conversations with Mr. Mutvaney. I wanted to have 25 more, but he was never available. 22 23 222 I 2 J 4 a But 'it's your testimony that you d jdn't anything close A a A say to that I don't remember -- duri ng the meeti ng? t4 I don't remember saying that. I don't remember saying a 1ot in the main meeting in Ambassador Bolton's office. There were a 1ot of people there, and it wasn't my meeti ng to preside over. a Did you ever have any conversations with Rick I'm sorry, Rob Blai r, lulr. Mutvaney's deputy? Blai r A Yes , a couple, very i nnocuous, I bel i eve. a Anything relating to Ukraine or a White House meeting for President ZelenskY? A I may have said when I saw him: We're working on a l5 White House meeting with Pres'ident Zelensky, do you have any l6 updates? Because he was involved in scheduling, and I don't 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll 12 13 t7 l8 t9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 recall getti ng any defi ni tive, agai n, i t was we're worki ng on i t sort of answer. I'm tryi ng to remember. I don't remember I had a meeting with hjm or anything like that. a In those conversations wi th Mr. Blai r, did the subject matter of these investigations ever come up? A Not that I recal1. THE CHAIRNAN: Just to fo1low up, jn the July L0th and there were two meet'ings, one mai n meeti ng and meeti ng then a followup meeting in the Ward Room. 223 J In the first meeting, is it your testimony you have no recollection of saying words to the effect that: No, we have an agreement for a White House meeting as long as Ukraine 4 does the investigations, we already have a meeting, we 5 already have an agreement on the meeting. You have no 6 recollection of saying any words to that effect? I 2 a 7 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 8 THE CHAIRMAN: And 9 l0 maki l3 don' t recalf i t. do you have any recollection of ng a sim'i1ar poi nt j n the f ol1ow-on meeti ng i n the Ward Room? ll t2 I AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: No. Agai n, I don' t recal1 that. In the Ward Room, we were talking about a phone cal1, i think, that still hadn't been made. THE CHAIRI'IAN: So t4 you don't have any recollection of in l5 either meeting raising the issue of the desire for Ukraine to l6 commi t7 l8 t9 20 t to these i nvesti gat'ions? AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: In that timeframe, and I think that was even before the press statement, because I don't thi nk the j nvesti gati on i ssue began to ari se unti 1 after the press statement was shelved, as I reca11. Z) don't have any recollection i n either of those meetings on July 10th raising the jssue of Ukraine conducting an jnvestigation or ever mentioning the 24 word "Burisma"? 2t 22 25 THE CHAiRI'4AN: 5o you AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: I don't remember that, no. I 224 1 don't remember BY MR. 2 a 3 4 that. remember NOBLE: Ambassador Sondland, 'in the Ward meeting do you ever mentjoning the word "Burisma"? 8 I can't say that the word "Buri sma" wasn't mentioned. I don't know if I ment'ioned it or if Ambassador Volker did or if Mr. Vindman I have no idea. a So the word "Burisma" may have come up in the Ward 9 Room? 5 6 7 l0 lt 12 A A a it may have. And can you walk us through who was present during the Ward Room meeting? l8 All I can rememberis l{r. McCormack, Dr. Hi ll, myself, Vi ndman, Perry. I thi nk Volker was there, too. I don't recall i f the Ukrai ni ans were there. I can' t remember. And we asked them to wait or if we brought them in, I honestly can't remember. a Was Ambassador Votker's assi stant Katheri ne Croft t9 present? l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 A Do you reca11 that? I don't reca11. I don't reca1l. 2l A a 22 What about any assistant 20 23 24 25 A a A You don't recaIl. of Secretary Perry? That would have been Brian Br i McCormack an McCormack. who was his chief of staff. -- 225 t4 0kay. And he would be the onty ajde to Secretary Perry that was present in the Ward Room? A Well, there were other aides, but I don't know if they were in the Ward Room or standing outsjde the door. As I said, it wasn't a formal meeting. It was sort of a stand jn the room and talk kind of thing. a Okay. So I'd like to turn to page 37 of the text messages. And to set the scene, this is around July L9th. Were you aware around that date that Ambassador Volker had introduced Rudy Giuliani to Andrey Yermak? A I believe I was. Is that the meeting in Madrid? a No, I bel"ieve that came later . But were you aware that did you have any conversations with Ambassador Volker about his plans to introduce Andrey Yermak to Rudy Giuliani 15 around mid-Ju1y? I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 l6 a A I thought that the first introduction was when t7 Giuliani l8 unless you have something to refresh my memory. l9 0kay. 5o on page 37, I want to direct your attention to July L9th. A Yes. a And do you see, it's at 1L:31 a.m., you say: "Talked to Whi te House. Thi s 'i s movi ng but post elect j on. " And then Ambassador Taylor says: "If we can get a congratulatory call postelection, that could begin to 20 2l 22 23 24 25 a and Yermak met in Madrid That was my recollect'ion, 226 I establi sh the relationshi A 2 P. " Yeah. I mean, this call for the 20th, I believe, 6 like a week before that. I thought we had finally won and gotten this call done. And then, as I reca11, the call got pu1led down at the last minute, because someone didn't want the call to occur before the 7 parl i amentary electi ons. 3 4 5 was scheduled a 8 9 And this ended up being the July 25th ca11, cor rect? A a A a l0 l1 t2 l3 U1 ti mately, yes U1 ti mately? . Yeah. Do you reca11 who you spoke to at the White House t4 about scheduling the ca11, here where you say "talked to l5 Whi t6 t7 l8 l9 20 2t 22 te House" ? A Let's see. It could have been Emma Doyte, the deputy chief of staff. It could have been I don't know. It could have been Morgan. I don't know. Someone. I think the NSC was involved in the And I think the scheduling. We had gotten an emajl, I think, because when they do these calls they put it through an NSC scheduling protocol and then there's 50 people on the email. And it was a1t set for the 20th. And I think they had 24 gotten Zelensky ready for the 20th. And then somebody blew 25 it up at the last minute. 227 a I Okay. And then later on, on Ju1y Lgth, at 6:50 6 t looks 1 i ke P0TUS call tomorrow. I spike" -- I think you met spoke "directly to Zelensky gave him a f u11 br jef ing. He's got 'it. " A Yeah. a Do you recall that conversation wj th President 7 Zelensky? 2 a J 4 5 8 p. m. , you wrj te: A a A " I and Vaguely. 22 0kay. TeIl us what you remember about it. it was a short caI1. I think I said: It looks like your call is finally on, and I think it's important that you, you know, give President Trump he wanted this some kind of a statement about corruption. I think this was when we were at the general statement about corruption. I don't know that the Burisma/2016 issue had entered the conversation. I can't reca11. But I think I said, you know: You guys will get along great. And, you know, it was just sort of a "I'm handing it off to you now, we finally got this done." And he was very happy and sajd: Great, we'11 have a good call tomorrow. And then, as I said, it got pu1led down and never happened. And I never -- I don't think I spoke to hjm since after, you know, 23 he had the 25th cal1. 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 l7 l8 t9 20 2t 24 25 a At 7 :0L p. m. here Kurt Volker breakf ast wi th Rudy th'is morni ng. " wri tes: "Good. Had 228 2 J 4 A a Ri ght. call th Yermak l'londay. " Does that refresh your recollection about when Ambassador Volker introduced Giuliani to Andrey Yermak? "Teei ng up "Had breakfast" 5 A 6 Gi u1i an 7 Yermak, ri ght? 8 a 9 Monday. j wi wi he said he had breakfast with thout - - "it doesn't say he had breakf ast But then jt says: "Teeing up call with wi th Yermak " ll Yeah. I think this was the call that he mentioned where he was goi ng to 'introduce Yermak and Gi ul i ani so that 12 they could meet 'i ndependently. l0 l3 t4 A a Okay. And then he writes: "Must have helped. Most important i s f or Zelensky to say that he w'i11 help l5 'investigation and address any specific personnel issues if l6 there are any." t7 l8 l9 20 21 22 23 24 25 So here Ambassador Volker is not just talking general corruption, but he's talking about some about particular investigation. Do you know what he was referring to A I don't. here? 229 1 [3:38 p.m.] BY ]"'IR. 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 lt t2 l3 t4 l5 a referring NOBLE : Do you know what specific personnel issues he was to? with someone in Zelensky's cabinet who was apparently close to Kolomoisky that Volker was concerned about and others were concerned about. They knew this person and didn't think that it would be easy for Zelensky to dj stance himself from Kolomoi sky wi th thi s person as a senior role in the Zelensky administration, so I think they were talking about that. I remember that conversation. a Do you recall whether the investigatjon that Volker was referring to was either Burisma or 2015? A Yeah, this A a I -- I don't. had to do But then down on July 2Lst, 201.9 and Mr. this eartier at L:45 a.m. Bill 16 asked you about t7 Taylor writes, "Gordon, one thing talked about yesterday l8 Sasha Danylyuk's point" t9 20 A a you see Goldman was Danytyuk. "Danylyuk's point that Zelensky is sens'itive about 2t Ukraine being taken seriously, not merely as an instrument in 22 Washington domest'ic reelection polit'ics. 23 24 25 A a Ri " ght. Does this refresh your recollectjon that at least around mid-July you and Ambassador Volker were talking with 230 I the Ukrai ni ans about parti cular i nvesti gati ons that 2 and President Trump wanted Ukraine J 4 5 6 7 8 9 Gi u1 i ani to pursue? I don't recal1 that I had any conversations. I mean Taylor may have. And I think that when this went from corruption to other things, I think the Ukrainjans just di dn' t won't to get i nvolved i n our electi on po1 i ti cs under any c'i rcumstances at that po'int. a And by making a statement about pursuing particular investigations that would be of political help to President A interfering with our domestic politics? l0 Trump, they would be ll l3 I think they wanted to stay as far away from our domesti c pol i ti cs as they could. That was my i mpressi on. O And Ambassador Taylor seems to relaying that t4 concern t2 A A l5 t6 t7 l8 to you and Ambassador I mean Volker? he's on the front lines and he's talkjng to multiple times a day. I mean, his level of contact with the Ukrainians and mine mine is a fraction of his. a So i f we wanted to know what the Ukra'in'ians were them 20 thinking and feeling and their concerns about what was being asked of them, Ambassador Taylor would be a good source for 2t them? I9 A a 22 23 24 25 the I would i magi ne. Let's turn to page 42. At 4:27, July 22nd, near top? A Uh-huh. 231 I a Volker writes "orchestrated a great phone call with l8 to get together when Rudy goes to Madrid in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, Rudy'is now advocati ng for phone ca11s. I have cal1ed j n Fi ona's replacement and w'i11 call Bolton, if needed. But I can te11 BoIton and you can te11 M'ick that Rudy agrees on a ca11, i f that he1ps." You replied, "I talked to T'im Morrison, Fiona's repl acement, he i s push i ng but feel f ree as weI 1 . " So during thjs tjme, did you or Ambassador Volker to your knowledge speak with Andrey Yermak in order to give him and i dea of what i t was that Gi u1i ani wanted the Ukra'ini ans to do? A I don't remember having any conversations with Yermak about 'it, but I do remember that when I talked to Morrison, there seemed to be a sea change in the NSC's position on the ca11. Dr. Hill was, I think, less excited about doi ng the ca1t, and l'lr. Morr j son, I thi nk, was more supportive of doing the calt. That's what I remember from t9 thi s exchange. 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 20 2t 22 23 24 25 Rudy and Yermak they are going O And you see where Volker wrote "Rudy is for the phone call? Yeah. That was after he met with Yermak? I believe so, but you tell us. advocating A a A a now Yeah. 0r after he spoke to him on the phone? 232 2 is once he and Yermak made contact, whether it was the meeting or the phone call, whatever they 5 discussed, Rudy was happier about Ukraine than he was prior 4 to having 5 talked about. I All I A remember spoken wjth Yermak. And I have no idea what they t7 a So and then, I'm sorry to skip around, but jn order to do this chronologically, the text is out a littte out of order. If we go back to page 37, and on July 24tn, it's going to be near the bottom. Do you see at the very end you wrote, "Ca11 ffie, just spoke to Danylyuk, I have c1arity." A Let's see a It's the last line. A 0h, yeah, yeah, yeah. a Do you reca11 that conversation with Danylyuk and whey you what you had clarity about? A Hang on just a second. MR. LUSKIN: it will take him a minute to read through l8 the 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 th read . : re. l9 MR. 20 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 2t 22 23 24 25 NOBLE Su The only thing I can remember is it was the logistics of the cal1. We thought we had the call nailed down after it was taken down. And then I might have spoken to Danylyuk about how that was going to I don' t remember exactly. happen. I don't maybe BY MR. NOBLE: 233 2 a 0kay. So around this time you were involved in trying to help arrange what turned out to be the July 25th 3 call? 1 A I influence I t2 trying to do whatever I could to use whatever had at NSC and the White House to keep people focused on making the call and getting the meeting. That's what I was trying to do. a Okay. Let's go back to page 42. Now we're going to be July 25th, the day of the phone call. A Yep. a You see the first entry JuIy 25th at 7:54, it looks like you trjed to called Ambassador Volker and then you wrote l3 him, "ca11 as soon as possible. 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t4 l5 l6 17 l8 t9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 A a was " Yep. Ambassador Do you recall what you were trying to reach Volker about? A I don't know was that was thi s on the 25th? Yeah, I don't know 1f that might have been the day I made the call to President Trump when I was on my way to Kyiv and again, jt was a -- kind of a nothing caI1. He didn't real1y he wasn't rea11y jnterested in and then I found out he had made the call later that day. I don't even th'ink he told me he was maki ng the cal l . t"laybe he d i dn ' t know that it had been scheduled. a In advance of the calI between President Trump and 234 1 President Zelensky were you and Ambassador VoIker trying to, J to speak, prime the Ukrainians and President Zelensky to what to expect and how to respond to the President's 4 request during the phone catl? 2 5 6 7 so as the only request I thjnk we had heard at that point that I recall was that they wanted a strong public statement about anticorruption. That's what I had A We11, again, l8 ng. And i f we would have primed him, i t would to that degree. have been to that a So if you turn to page 19, and we're sti11 on Ju1y 25th, this is at 8:35, I believe. A Yep. a Do see that? Ambassador Volker, and thi s 'is east coast time, and I believe the phone call with President Trump was at 9:00 a. m. ? A Uh-huh. a Is that right? So a litt1e before, less than a half hour before President Trump and President Zelensky t9 speak, Volker wri tes "good lunch, thanks. Heard f rom 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 recalled knowi Wh'i 2t House. Assumi ng President Z convi nces Trump he wi 11 'investigate slash 'get to the bottom of what happened' in 22 20L6. 23 Good 24 Andrey Yermak, Correct? 20 25 We wi A for a vi si t to Washi ngton. Kurt. " So he's wri ti ng that to 11 nai 1 down date 1uck, see you tomorrow, Uh-huh. te 235 Is that a yes or no? MR. NOBLE: Is that a yes? AI'4BASSADOR S0NDLAND: Yes. I 'm sorry. THE CHAIRMAN: I 2 J BY MR. 4 Yes. NOBLE: 8 Is Kurt Volker tel1 i ng Andrey Yermak that Presi dent Zelensky just needs to talk about corruption, or js he telling him that President Zelensky needs to commit to investigating the things that President Trump wanted h'im to 9 i nvesti gate? 5 6 7 a t4 I don't know. Am I -- is this one of my texts? I'm not on this text, am I? a No. I'm just asking we11, let me ask jt ljke thi s. Does thj s refresh your recollection that around the tjme right before the July 25th call you and Ambassador l5 Volker were priming President Zelensky and Andrey Yermak that l6 President Trump was going to be asking President Zelensky to t7 investigate the two things that he and Rudy Giuliani had l8 push i l0 ll t2 l3 t9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 A been ng, 2015 and Bu r i sma? A I don't know that the Burisma in 20L5 came up then. And the call I think by President Trump was made when I was in the air. I think I was on my way to Kyiv. a But doesn't this suggest that at least Ambassador Volker was aware that President Trump was going to ask Presi dent Zelensky to commi t to i nvestj gati ng 2015? I mean, this text message is in advance of the July 25th cal1. 236 I Correct? it A 2 appears to say that, but again, I wasn't I 4 don't recal1 that. a 5o 'is i t your testimony you had no knowledge that 5 Kurt Volker was priming President Zelensky and Andrey J Yermak ll to expect Presjdent Trump to make these requests and that in order to get the White House meeting, President Zelensky would have to, quote, convince Trump he will investigate/get to the bottom of what happened i n 20L6? A I don't recall it happening that ear1y. I thought it happened in August when we were negotiating the press t2 statement. 6 7 8 9 l0 l5 this, it seems pretty obvious that Volker, at least, was telling Andrey Yermak what President Zelensky was going to have it do to get a White l6 House meeti l3 t4 a l8 A I don ' t l9 don't t7 But now that you see ng, correct? Well, he says get to the bottom of what happened. I know whether that means an 'investi gati on, or know what i t means. 2t to the bottom, isn't that another way of saying look jnto, which are the words that President Trump 22 used? 20 23 24 25 ca1 a We1l, get A a Where did President Trump use the words look into? In the July 25th ca11, at least according to the 1 readout. 237 1 A 0h, you 2 a Yes. J A Yeah, a And 4 7 8 9 I the transcript of the call? if that's what he said, that's what he said. 5 6 mean in this text Zelensky to i nvesti gate. It message itself is says Trump wants Doesn't i t? says. Yeah So is it your testi mony that this wasn't a message a that you'd relayed to Ambassador Volker to te11 Andrey A l0 Ye rmak? ll t2 A a 13 te11 Andrey t4 Zelensky? appears to, i t says what i t No. told Ambassador Volker that he needed to Yermak that to relay thjs message to President You never A t7 I don't believe so. I think I think Volker was talking to Mr. Giufiani. I don't remember telling Volker anything like that. Not -- again, not that soon. I don't l8 think that l5 l6 \,lR. MEAD0WS: What page t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 happened. are you on? What page are you on? MR. N0BLE: Page 19. is that what you are you are what saying, because I can't find that. MR NOBLE: No. These there text messages between Andrey Yermak and Kurt Volker. I 'm j ust aski ng about hi s I"lR. MEADOWS: 5o he' s on these text messages, 238 at that time. MR. MEADOWS: Okay. But he wasn't party to the text conversations with Kurt Volker around 2 J 4 5 message. 0kay. AMBASSADOR group, SONDLAND: Yeah, I wasn't on thi s wasn't this was just Volker and Yermak, right? 7 talking about the 2016 issue back then, I don't know. I don't reca11 it coming up that 8 ear1y, as I said. 6 9 Yeah, maybe they started THE CHAIRI4AN: If I can clari f y. The text messages ll indicate that Volker was in communication with Yermak, and that he needed to be prepared for a conversation with the t2 Presi dent about i nvesti gati ng, l0 a or looki ng i nto 2015, correct? t6 Is that what the text message indicates? Al{BASSAD0R S0NDLAND: What it appears to ind'icate. THE CHAIRMAN: Is it your testimony that you were out of the loop when it came to Volker communicating that with t7 Andrey Yermak? 13 t4 l5 2l I don't recal1 whether I was in or out. I j ust don't remember thi s. As I sajd, I spoke wi th President Trump before I got on the p1ane, I believe, to Kyiv and it was a nothing cal1. I sajd we're headed to Kyiv to go 22 see Zelensky and he was 1ike, oo, great, whatever. That 23 sort of the end of the call. 24 substanti ve. l8 l9 20 25 AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: BY MR. NOBLE: We never discussed anything was 239 So a 2 is it your testimony that you never Volker to pass a message to Andrey Yermak around this time? I don't J A 4 a 5 a half 6 A Okay. 7 a So 8 asked Kurt an remember that. Okay. Let's turn to page 42, thjs is the same day, hour after the ca11. if you go to page 42, we're looking at July 25, 20L9? 13 A Okay. a At 9:35 a.m. A Uh-huh. a After you had tried to call Ambassador Volker, and then after the call between President Trump and Presjdent t4 Zelensky, he writes you back, "Hi Gordon, got your l5 had a great lunch with Yermak and then passed your message to 9 l0 ll t2 message, 24 will see you tomorrow, think everything in place. " Does that refresh your recollection that you'd asked Ambassador Volker to pass a message to Andrey Yermak in advance of the call wjth President Trump? A No, because I don't know where I would have gotten that message. I never got that from President Trump. That's the only place I could have gotten it from, because I wasn't talki ng to Gj ul i ani a Were you talking to other people in the White 25 Hou s e? l6 t7 18 t9 20 2t 22 23 him. He . 240 I 2 J 4 5 that I reca11. And I think Yermak and I were getting together for lunch or something that next day for a drink because we were I think we were going to meet A No, not the President, President Zelensky the next day as we11. a 0n July 25th you gave an interview to ust a moment, Please. 6 MR. LUSKIN: 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Please J go ahead. off the record. ] MR. N0BLE: Is there something IDi scussi on 8 l8 to clartfy? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: We11, only that I'm not denying these texts occurred between Yermak and Volker. I don't reca11 passing that message a1ong. That would have been out of out of context, or out of order. Because the first time I recall hearing about 2016 and Burisma was during the negotiations of the press statement. Again, unless there's some text that I've completely have forgotten about, that's when I first remember getting into those issues. It was it always just about corruption prior to that. It kept t9 kept getting more insidious as timeline went on, and back'in 20 J 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 2t all about j ust corrupti on. MR. N0BLE: 0kay. I think my t'ime is uly, i t 24 25 was BY MR. 22 23 you want a conveyed A up. CASTOR: Any idea what the message was there to I that Volker Yermak? have no idea. No, I don't. I know that I was 241 plann'ing 2 to see Yermak at the Zelensky bilateral the next day. 3 a Right. 4 A so, 5 a Do you remember - - I don't know. t2 A Does it indicate that Volker was talking to the Whi te House? a Just flipping back to the A Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Everyone WAS ta1 ki ng to everyone. That was the problem. a So seei ng these messages between you and Volker, the second half of the message doesn't refresh you r l3 recollection about what? 6 7 8 9 l0 11 A t4 Yeah, my only recollecti on 'is on, or that the only thi ng t5 that l6 Zelensky on was to tel1 President Trump he would t7 vi gorously worki ng on corrupti on i ssues at that l8 That's the only thing I can reca11. we were coaching Zelensky someone was coach i ng be poi nt. 20 a Before you came i n today, you said you collect all your text messages and you produced them to the State 2t Depa r tmen t? l9 22 23 24 25 A a A a Cor rect. Did you review them? of them, yeah. 0kay. So when these texts are ready, are these Some 242 I texts that you had recently J I A 2 at some looked reexami ned? there were a 1ot of texts. I looked at of them. 8 all of them? As I said, one of the problems with my A No. i nvolvement i n thi s i s I kept droppi ng i n, droppi ng out. I was just trying to help get these meetings set up, and I was doi ng a 1ot of other thing unrelated to Ukraine at the same 9 time. 4 5 6 7 l0 0kay. a But not Yeah, again, I'm not denying that the issue was raised t9 I j ust don't remember i t. I honestly don't. a 0kay. A The 20L5 issue. a Okay. A I mean 'if everyone is saying it was raised in all these multiple texts then it probably was raised. I just don't remember the conversation because none of it seemed remarkable to me. a Okay. Did you ever have a conversation with Yermak 20 about ll t2 13 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 2l 20L6? A I don't remember. I honestly don't. 22 many conversatjons 23 and the others, 24 25 a A No, no. so with Yermak, and Danylyuk, and Prystaiko I don't You were There were remember. talking to We were them separate from Volker? all talk together when we were in 243 I 2 J 4 Kyiv a Okay. But were you testing or having telephone ca11s? A I th'ink I was havi ng some di rectly and some wi th 5 Volker and some group, everything. But again, that may have 6 occurred, there may have been a conversation about 2016, I l3 don't I honestly don't remember. a Flipping back to page 19, 7/25, 8:36 a.m. text? A Uh-huh. a Thi s Votker to Yermak agai n. A Okay. a I want to be clear, you're not on this. He says, just heard from White House. Do you have any idea where t4 Ambassador 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l5 l6 l7 l8 A O A a Volker was getting that? I don't. Who he was talking to? I don't. You were"in constant communicat'ion wlth him during 2r that time, i s j t possi ble to who were the poss j b'i1i ti es that he's talking to? V0ICE: I'm sorry, I don't understand who he is at this 22 point. t9 20 23 24 25 MR. CASTOR: VoIker, Ambassador Volker. We' re tryi ng to decipher -AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: It could have been the NSC, I 244 I don't I don't know. BY MR. 2 CASTOR: 20 a Was he talking to anybody else at the White House? A I don't know. a I don't know that i n these di scussi ons we've A I don't know who a Established that Volker was A The probtem was no one owned this fi1e. Everyone had a little hand in it. You know, the NSC, the White House staff, everybody was involved in, you know, everyone was pushing for these meetings and the phone cal1s. a Okay. A And I don't know who was talking to whom. All I can te11 is what I was doing or what I can remember I was doing, whjch was trying to get the meeting. In this case, I think I was trying to get the phone call. a We're golng to make sure our members get a chance to ask you some questions and so I want to MR. MEADOWS: So Ambassador, this is Mark Meadows. I want thank you for your service. Thank you, obviously, for 2t your candor. My colleagues opposite have been consistently 22 trying to lead 23 President Trump was asking 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 t9 24 25 you down a path to suggest that you knew that to investigate the Bidens based on that you have now. But based on knowledge that had when you met on the 26th with President Zelensky, did knowledge you 245 I i nvesti gati AMBASSADOR 2 3 recollecti at all duri ng that meeti ng? S0NDLAND: Not to the best of my ng the Bi dens come up on. 5 to the best of your recollection. Did investigating the Bidens come up in your conversations on the 6 25th 4 ulR. l"lEAD0WS: ll t2 13 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2l Ambassador Volker? S0NDLAND: Again, not to the best of my recollection. MR. MEAD0WS: So as we 9 l0 th AMBASSADOR 7 8 wi Not look at this, this whole context are, and I'm just trying to make sure that somewhere between the questions that get added to a tittle bit on the end of it that they are going to try to use to say something that I have not heard you say today. I want to make sure we're just getting this very c1ear. When you met with President Zelensky, did he indicate that the phone call that he had with the President of the United States, Donald ). Trump, was a positjve phone call and he presented in positive terms to you? of where we AMBASSADOR great S0NDLAND: That's all I heard was we had a ca11. MR. MEADOWS: And you and Ambassador Volker were not 22 sent over there as a condition of a bad phone calI. You were 23 already planning 24 President Zelensky 25 already in the works, and you were already on your way there, to be there this meeting you had with on July 25th of this year was was and 246 1 2 a J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 or you were there fi rst of all, I was i nvi ted to join Ambassador Volker in his bilateral meeting in early July. So the meeting was schedule for the week of, I believe, the 22nd of Ju1y. There wasn't even a date nailed out yet and I was invited sometime around the 8th, 9th, LOth, L2th of Ju1y. MR. MEADOWS: So the early part of July you were invited to parti ci pate 'in a meeti ng thJt was goi ng to be held wi th then president I guess the inauguration had happened so it would have been President Zelensky at that point. AI4BASSAD0R SONDLAND: AMBASSADOR of July 27tn. l5 1"1R. t7 l8 the phone calt happened. Is that correct? t4 l6 when SONDLAND: MEADOWS: And We11, Correct, sometime during the that happened long bef ore the week phone call actually of July 25th, that was already in the planning stages and you had been invited. Is that correct? AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: That's correct. 20 start to look at this chronological step of a phone call and what happened, all 2l aski ng you about a'id and everythi ng t9 22 23 24 25 MR. MEAD0WS: And so when you the else i n h j ndsi ght, at that particular time, the aid being held up was certainly, it did not cross your mind is this correct, that it did not cross your mind, that the aid was being held up because of an i nvesti gati on i nto the B'idens? 247 at that time. there's a I"'lR. I"IEADOWS: Okay. And so I -- I also whole lot of back and forth between text messages and what was included. Some of these text messages that you've been asked to opine on just, in the previous hour, were actually text messages that you were hot a part of. Is that correct? Al'4BASSAD0R SONDLAND: 2 J 4 5 6 AMBASSADOR 7 8 9 l0 S0NDLAND: Not That's correct. jt actually text messages between Ambassador Volker, who's aI ready testj fi ed here for over L0 hours and given very clear indication of what he l'lR. t"'IEAD0WS: And so was 20 to opine on what Ambassador Volker might have meant on text messages that you were not a party to. Is that correct? AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: Appears to be correct. MR. MEADOWS: 5o I guess where I'm going with a1t of this is that there continues to be this leading question-and-answer process to suggest that you somehow knew that there was th'is qui d pro quo that had happened i n the early parts of May and June of 20L9. Were you aware of any quid pro quo for aid or anything else that early in May or 2t J ll t2 13 l4 l5 t6 t7 l8 t9 thought. une? AMBASSADOR 22 23 24 25 So they are asking you S0NDLAND: I the only thing I was aware of that there was to be some kind of acknowledgment of corruption investigation at that point, I believe. that was MR. NEADOWS: And does the Ukraine have a history of 248 I corruption? SONDLAND: Yes 2 At"IBASSADOR J MR. MEAD0WS: Have , they do . there been prosecutors, mult'iple 8 to clear up corruption in the Ukraine who never cleared up the corruption in Ukraine? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: ThAt'S WhAt I UNdCTStANd. MR. MEAD0WS: A11 ri ght. Is that a concern, not j ust to the United States, is that a concern to the European Union as 9 well? 4 5 6 7 prosecutors who were going AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: l0 'is a huge concern to Yeah it them. l3 That's one of reasons they are not all in. MR. MEADOWS: And so, that's one of the reasons why, I guess, they send money for pillows and we send money for t4 mj 1i l1 t2 l5 t6 tary defense systems. Is that correct? AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: I don't know why they send their money. t7 MR. I'IEADOWS: A11 l8 to a large part to the t9 At'4BASSADOR 20 Presi dent Trump. 2l 1"1R. right. Do you know defense of SONDLAND: MEAD0WS: Ukraine? Apparently not enough At1 right. How about enough 22 appease Ambassador Sondland. Do you 23 doing 24 25 their fair share, the EU? AI"IBASSADOR EU, they would if they contribute S0NDLAND: Wel1, like to do more. to sui t to actually think that they are 'in my di scuss'ions They would wi th the like to see some 249 I things cleaned up before they contribute more has been 2 i mpress i on. .4R. MEAD0WS: 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 So, you mean the EU has an quid pro quo in of their foreign aid to the Ukraine? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I don't know if it 'is a quid pro quo. I think it is one of thejr conditions. MR. MEADOWS: So they have a condition to giving additional foreign aid. So you're saying this is groundbreaking -- so you're saying that someone other than AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: I walked right into that one. MR. MEAD0WS: -- other than Donald ). Trump is concerned terms wjth corruption, and they might withhold foreign aid based on that. Is that correct, Ambassador? I can telt by your smjle it's a yes, is that correct. Are we correct? l5 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: Thi l6 MR. MEADOWS: l7 my marks here l8 s is 1 i ke My Cousi n Vi nny. Yeah. There are two positive track tire it looks 1ike. AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: To answer your question, 2t ve, the Ukrai ni ans - - the Europeans are always very carefut about when they contribute money to anything and they always have a list of requirements, some of which are a 22 mj t9 20 Representati le MR. MEADOWS: 23 24 25 1ong. 5o in your diplomatic speak, yes? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Yes. is that a 250 MR. MEADOWS: Thank you. I yield back. MR. ZELDIN: And President Zelensky, Ambassador, won his 2 J election based on an anticorruption 4 correct? S0NDLAND: Among 5 AMBASSADOR 6 MR. ZELDIN: What was 7 President Zelensky's 8 AI"lBASSADOR campaign primarily, other things, yes. the anti corruptj on aspect of campaign? SONDLAND: I thi nk a general commi tment to l3 to having less influence by the oligarchs, potentially buying the oligarchs out, or kicking the oligarchs out of some of the key industries in Ukraine, getting boards of directors that had well-recognized internat'iona1 f igures on them that would be appealing to t4 Wa11 l5 things like that. 9 l0 ll 12 l6 t7 transparency the Street and London investment banks, and a whole host of MR. ZELDiN: And what were some of the corruption problems plagui ng Presi dent Poroshenko? 2t of what I just said. Cronies on the boards, too many oligarchs involved in taking bribes and kickbacks and all kinds of bad stuff. MR. ZELDIN: And this corruption within Ukraine 22 government was something l8 t9 20 z) 24 25 AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: The opposite that you were concerned about? it from the standpoint that, again, my goal was two things: was to get the Europeans aligned with us, because it was one of AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Wel1, I was concerned about 251 I the few things where we had very little daylight between 2 on us 7 lot of issues with the EU, but Ukraine wasn't one of them. And the second was to get President Zetensky and President Trump together because I figured that they would hit it off, and that the United States and all the interagency, once they saw the two presidents meet, all the interagency nerve endings would start to grow together and 8 we'd have a real solid partnership. The whole idea here is a J 4 5 6 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 we have a to counter Russi a. Russi a j s the problem. Russi a i s what needs it be countered. And the more we bear-hug Ukraine, the less influence Russia has. So that was my strategic ob j ect'ive and part of my portf o1i o? MR. ZELDIN: And Ambassador VoIker was very concerned about corrupti on i n Ukrai ne? l5 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: Ambassador l6 MR. ZELDIN: Did you Volker? Yes. get any readouts of the July 25th l8 call at all from the Ukrainian Government? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I think the only readouts I l9 remember seeing were 20 innocuous, and did not represent what was actually sajd 2t the call that I found out once the transcript was a released. t7 22 23 the ones from my team, which were very MR. ZELDIN: Was there any reference on to a hold on aid or a quid pro quo in those readouts? SONDLAND: 24 AMBASSADOR 25 MR. ZELDIN: You met Not in the readouts I saw. with President Zelensky on July 252 I 26th? Correct. 2 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: J MR. ZELDiN: Did President Zelensky make any reference 7 in the July 25th meeting to hold on aid or a quid pro quo? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: NOt thAt I rCMCMbCr. MR. ZELDIN: Te11 us about Ambassador Volker. You worked closely with him? Was jt a positive experience 8 worki ng 4 5 6 9 AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: Yeah, I had a great relationship l1 with hjm he's a very smart guy, he's clearly very well-1iked by all the Ukrai n j ans, the old admi ni strat'ion, the new t2 admjnistration. l0 l3 t4 l5 He rea11y understands the country and he was a tremendous assets I th'ink to the Uni ted States. MR. ZELDIN: And he was professional at all times as far as you know from your jnteractions with him? SONDLAND: A11 times when I was with him. 16 AMBASSADOR t7 MR. ZELDIN: And candid and honest, l8 l9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 is that part of your assessment, too? AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: Yeah, he's one of those people I to. That's how I describe him. MR. ROY: I want to clarify one thing you referenced a couple of times today. You repeatedly testified that at the outset, going back to May, going back to conversatjons that the you've been referencing, that your perspective on the only thing that you were aware of, I should say, regarding would hand my wa11et 253 4 ght, out of Ukra'ini ans, or any connection to foreign aid or anything else is you specifically said corruption, that that was the early outset. And you've referenced a contjnuum. And I'm trying to understand your 5 perspective I 2 J any asks, ri of continuum. l8 I don't believe I ever referenced in May that he there was any tie to aid. I wasn't even aware of the aid I don't think back then. MR. ROY: Right. But from the very beginning, right, you talked about thjs very specifically, you've referenced only you've only referenced corrupt'ion, right? And you haven't referenced anythi ng beyond that. What I'm tryi ng to understand is your perspective of the continuum. AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: The continuum was, first of all, an unconditional phone call and an unconditionaf inv'itatjon to the White House, and then I believe the next part of the continuum was some kind of a commitment to investigate corruption generally. And then the next part of the t9 continuum was 20 electj on, 2t negotiatjon of the short-1ived press statement, which only 22 lasted a few days, and then it died. And then at the end of 23 that continuum I 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 24 25 AMBASSADOR wh'i S0NDLAND: talking about the Burisma and the ch as I recal1 , 20L5 was heavi 1y dj scussed duri ng the that there might be a link between the White House visit and aid to the Ukraine that was being hetd up when I couldn't get a straight answer as to why became aware 254 I the aid was being held up, both Senator Johnson and 2 Ambassador J a 4 thing blew up. That's the best I can recall the sort of 5 progressi on. 6 7 8 9 l0 Taylor rajsed the possibility that there might 1i nk. And then the a'id was released, and then thi s whole MR. ROY: Going back to my colleague from North Carolina's questions, to be ctear you have said that with respect to conditions that a public embrace by the Ukraines of their anticorruption actjvities, was a fine precondition from the standpoint of your perspective? l1 AMBASSADOR l2 MR. SONDLAND: Absolutely. R0Y: And so to his point about conditions often l5 aid, that's not troubling to you at all? AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: Not at all. MR. ROY: And at any point in any of these l6 AMBASSADOR t7 White House meeting? 18 MR. ROY: l3 t4 t9 20 2t 22 23 be being placed on SONDLAND: Did you say aid or did you say the I said aid. that. I didn't think there should by any preconditions on aid. And the reason I didn't think there should be any preconditions on a'id was I thought it would send the absolute wrong message to the Russ'ians i f we held up ai d f or any reason. AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: I 'm sor ry. I mi ROY: But that' s a pol i cy choi ce. 24 1'4R. 25 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: Correct. ssed 255 I MR. ROY: Right? 2 Al'lBA55AD0R SONDLAND: J 4 Correct. the standpoint of putting preconditions on a White House meeting or putting MR. ROY: But from l0 aid, that might be a policy choice. But in respect to terms of attaching any kinds of conditions to aid that's not an unusual thi ng to occur, ri ght? AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: That' s cor rect. And so you ' re correct, my distinction was I djdn't agree wjth the policy of holdi ng up the a'id f or any reason whereas others may have ll said yes, we should condition the aid on corruption. 5 6 7 8 9 precond'itjons on testified there were debates about -- t2 MR. ROY: And you t3 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: t4 MR. l5 AMBASSADOR t6 MR. ROY: t7 l4R. ZELDIN: Ambassador, R0Y: Exactly. what the policy choices should be? SONDLAND: ExactIy. Thanks. That's all. 'it is U.S. 1aw to, when l8 providing aid to Ukraine to be assessing the anticorruption t9 efforts that are correct? 20 2t 22 23 24 25 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: I don't know what the law is relating to ajd. f'm not an expert on preconditions for aid? MR. ZELDIN: But i think that's an important point before declaring that there should be no conditionatity on aid related to corruption; it's important to know what the United States law is as it relates to aid to Ukraine and as 256 I i t relates to corruption. At'IBASSADOR S0NDLAND: 2 J was My my response, Congressman, strategic, not 1ega1. MR. ZELDIN: We are concerned about 4 Now 5 the 1ega1 as well. you're the U.S. Ambassador to the EU, So you have 8 th a number of countri es all across the European conti nent. I i magi ne you' re engagi ng wi th countri es on a whole host of issues all day, right, your portfolio's 9 enormous. 6 7 i nteract'ion wi l0 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: That ' ll MR. ZELDIN: di plomacy, whether i t i s ai d l3 probably have asks t4 conti nent, correct? t6 t7 cor rect. Okay. And as far as conducti ng U. S. t2 l5 s or other di scussi ons, you into countries all across the ent'ire AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: True. give us an idea of your portfolio as i t relates to your priori ties of getting other countries MR. ZELDIN: Can you t9 to do things that are important to the United States? AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: Wel1, my portfolio as I said 20 encompasses l8 28, currently 28 EU countries, unless something 24 in the last few hours with the U.K. And it involves trade, it involves security, it involves energy independence. It involves the'i r actions in various other parts of the wor1d, Iran, Venezuela, et cetera, et cetera. I'm not sure 25 what your question 2t 22 23 happened 257 1 2 MR. ZELDIN: As far as you doing your job interacting and the United States State Department interacting with 4 foreign countries, we identify priorities that are important to the United States and try to get other countries to make 5 decisions to adopt their policies and behavjors to our 6 to the extent possible, correct? J 7 AMBASSADOR 8 list of those 9 \/lR. S0NDLAND: That is correct and I ZELDIN: And you have seen foreign aid get leveraged in countries all ll cor rect? around the world SONDLAND: That for different AMBASSADOR l3 MR. ZELDIN: For example, Congress t4 the Presi dent si gned i nto l5 Force Act. I don't 1aw legi recently passed, know, have you heard of that? Al'4BASSAD0R S0NDLAND: I t7 MR. ZELDIN: So where there is a policy 2l 22 23 24 25 and slatj on called the Taylor t6 20 reasons, is correct. t2 t9 have a long asks l0 l8 asks have not. would it be appropriate where the American taxpayer would not want their tax dollars to go to the Palestinian authority if they are f i nanci a1ly rewardi ng terror, that would be an appropri ate prioritization of how to leverage our tax dollars, correct? AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: Appears to be, yes. MR. ZELDIN: Now, as f ar as F'iona Hi 11, did you and the NSC did you sense that they felt threatened at all, that you were, say, stepping on their turf by having a passion for 258 1 Ukra'i ne? AMBASSADOR 2 they testj fied earlier, SONDLAND: We11, my 4 first sort of extracurricular trip to Ukraine I met regularly with the Ukrainians in BrusSelS, and I don't even know that 5 the 6 wouldn't be. But my fi rst tri p to Ukrai ne, 7 0dessa a J 8 NSC was i nvolved i n those meet'ings, they normally whi ch was to in February, I believe, of 2019, I mentjoned to Dr. Hill that I was going with Ambassador Volker and l0 Secretary Reeker, and she sent back a very laudatory note sayi ng, I'm glad you're supporti ng Ukrai ne and thi s i s great, 1l or 9 t2 l3 t4 to go that effect. MR. ZELDIN: At any point did Dr. Hill ever push back on something 'it your j nterest i n Ukrai ne? AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: l5 contacted me and said the l6 i nvolvement i t7 l8 Not to me. Not NSC is not happy with your n Ukrai ne. I 've never heard that. MR. CASToR: I will mark as exhibit 8 the whistleblower complai nt. nori ty Exhi bi t9 IMi 20 Was marked BY MR. 21 22 23 24 25 to anyone that for t No. 8 i denti fi cati on. l CASTOR: a The whistleblower complaint was released A a Uh-huh. publicly think on the day after the call transcript was released? Di d anyone talk to you about the wh'istleblower I 259 I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 complaint before it was released? I befieve I testified that I heard from the White House counsel's offjce that my name they were giving me a heads-up a few hours before it was released. Yes. a Anybody else? Anybody at the National Security A Counc i 1? A a A a I don't recal1 that, In that time period? I don't reca11. no. Did anyone give you an advanced copy of the complai nt? A a on page I don't think so. When 4, A a A and then again on page I was pretty 7, I think it's what was your reaction? upset. And why? Because wrong when a you saw your name was mentjoned, I it almost implies I was doing something was doing my job. of the complaint under the ongoing Roman III, the last sentence of that first paragraph 0n page 4 20 concerns 2t there beginning with the word based on multiple readouts of 22 these meeti ngs recounted Ambassadors to me by vari ous U. S. off i ci als, Volker and Sondland reportedly provided advice to 24 Ukrainian leadership about how to navigate the demands that 25 President Trump had made of Mr. Zelensky. Does that have any 260 basis in fact? 2 J 4 A I didn't know that the President had made any demands. a A Okay. t7 I wasn't aware of any demands that he had made of Mr. Zelensky unti 1 I saw the O 0kay. So this statement as it relates to you is just not true. Is that true? A We11, I think to be fair to the whistleblower, I was involved in the fi1e. I'm not sure what he's rea1ly trying to say here. This sentence confounds me because I'm not qui te sure what he's tryi ng to say. a So you're not sure about what the demands were? A No. O And you're also not sure about how you were helping the navigate helping the Ukrain'ians navigate the demands? A We11, other than as I testified we tried to l8 negotiate a press statement, the whole 5 6 7 8 9 l0 1l t2 13 t4 l5 t6 t9 20 2t 22 L) 24 25 group? a Ri ght. A If that's navigating the demands, then I guess that's navigating the demands. And I think I also testified that I was trying to we're a1l trying to prep President Zelensky for the request that corruption be investigated. O 0n the July 25th meet'ing in Kyiv with Ambassador Volker, did this come up, the press statement and so forth? 261 5 A I don't thi nk so. I don't remember that. a Okay. 5o at least at that meeting the day after the call there was no djscussion that you can recall -A No, not that I remember, and again, I saw a readout of the ca11, and the call was benign until I saw the 6 transcript. I 2 J 4 7 a Okay. So jt at that point, you didn't know about and so it is not fair to say you were helping the 8 demands, 9 Ukrainians navigate the demands? l3 I don't know. I was involved in the file, and if being involved in the file means my name in the whistlebtower complaint then I guess I have to accept that. a Ftipping back to page 7. The first bu1let the t4 State Department offi ci a1s, i ncludi ng Ambassadors Volker l5 Sondland had spoken t6 damage. l7 A a A a l0 ll t2 l8 l9 A and to l{r. Giuliani in attempt to contain the Is there a questjon? I just wanted to make sure you read? Yes, I'm followi ng. 22 I'm ready to ask my question now. The last hour, you walked me through all four or five conversatjons you had wi th Mr . Gi uI i an'i . Any of those conversati ons possi bly 23 could they possibly be characterized as you and Ambassador 24 Volker trying to contajn the 25 secu r i ty? 20 2t damage to U.S. national 262 7 I had with they were real 1y Mr . Gj u1 i ani , because, agai n, they j ust applying to the press statement. a Ri ght. A I didn't think this the press statement const'i tuted damage to nati onal securi ty. a 0kay. So nothing that you did on a call to Rudy 8 Gi u1 i 9 d ama I 2 J 4 5 6 A ani could fai r1y be characteri zed as contai ni ng the ge? A a l0 ll Not the direct conversations I thi nk i t' s an exaggerati on. The second bu11et, Ambassadors Volker and Sondland of the Ukrai ni an 12 duri ng thi s tj me peri od, meet wi th members l3 adm'inistration, and in addition to discussing policy matters t4 helped Ukrainian leaders understand and respond l5 di l6 channels on the one hand, and Mr. fferi ng messages they A t7 were recei vi ng from offi to the ci a1 U. S. Giuliani on the other. Well , the problem i s, I don' t know what offi ci a1 20 I don't know what they were receiving from Mr. Giuliani a 0kay. because I don't know what direct conversations A 2t he was having. l8 19 22 O 23 because 24 in 25 that also is a statement that can't be true, you didn't know what Giuliani was doing at that point So time? A All I know, with respect to Mr. Giuliani, 'is what 263 told me and what I he 2 Ambassador Volker. I heard directly through hearsay and from 7 this time period, the statement that Ambassadors Volker and Sondland sought the help of Ukrainian leaders understand and respond to the differing messages they were recejving from official U.S. channels on the one hand and Mr . G'iut i ani on the other can' t be true i f you don't know 8 what G j u1i an'i was te11i ng J 4 5 6 a A 9 But during them? I think a fairer thing was we were trying to l0 assuage the Ukrainians, and as time kept going on and there ll were no meetings t4 or phone ca11s after they had been promised. I that's probably we were stroking the Ukrainians a fittle bit in order to keep them from sort of bailing on us. I di dn't want them goi ng i n the Russi a d'i recti on. That was my l5 bi t2 l3 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 g concern. a But you couldn't possibly be doing what is alleged right here because you didn't know what message Giuljani was sending to them? A Yeah, I mean, if anything, we probably more played the role of a mediator just to try and keep things coo1, while the time was going on and, you know, the meetings weren't happening. So I don't know if I would have written it exactly this way, but we're trying to he1p. a Okay. The next sentence during the same timeframe multi ple U. S. offici ats told me that Ukrai ne leadershi p was 264 led to believe that a meeting or phone call between the 2 President and President Zelensky would depend on whether J Zelensky showed a willingness 4 had been to play ball on the issues that 7 publicly aired by lulr. Lutsenko and lvlr. Giuliani. Does that stri ke you as somethi ng you' re famj 1i ar wj th? A That -- are you saying that the catl that l"lr. or President Trump and President Zelensky ultimately had on the 8 25th? 5 6 ll a We11, during the same tjmeframe, multiple U.S. officials told me Ukrain'ian leadership is led to believe that a meeting or phone call between President Trump and President t2 Zelensky would depend on whether Zelensky showed 9 l0 l3 t4 a willingness to play ball on the issues that had been publicly aired by Lutsenko and l'4r. Giutiani. A l5 We1l, that appears not l6 call t7 happened on happened to be true because the phone without any precondition. The phone call t9 the 25th and I don't believe anything was agreed upon by the Ukrainians by the time the phone call happened. a Did you ever hear a U.S. official use the term 20 "p1ay ba11"? 18 2t 22 23 24 25 I've never heard that expression from anyone. Because it is in quotes? I don't reca11 ever heari ng that. Okay. I want to go back to the recall of Ambassador Yovanovitch. Can you telt me when you first A a A a 265 I in jeopardy? I can't, I don't recal1. As I said, I learned that her post was J met with A when I was 'in 0dessa, she j oi ned us on the meeti ngs wi th 4 Poroshenko and 2 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 her others, and we may have had some cal1s after that, but I don't remember. a Did anyone consult wjth you prior it her removat? A I don't I don't believe so. O So nobody at the Whj te House asked for your opi n i on? A a A remember I don't thi nk so. Nobody? I probably would have remembered that, but I don't that. a A a Anyone on the A I No, 7th floor of the State Department? I don't think so. So nobody asked f or your v'iews on whether she was doing an effective job at that time? 22 to anyone. As I said, I had a perfectly good experience with her. l4y limi ted experience that I had wi th her. a So had someone asked you, you would have A I can't imagine I would have said anything, but she 23 seems great. 18 l9 20 2t 24 25 a A mean I don't Were you A reca11 giving my views surprised when she was recalled? little bit. Especially after I heard from a lot 266 ll of people in the Mission that she was going good ambassador they had, as I said earlier, they had served with her. a Did anybody seek your input on the next ambassador? A I don't think so, no. I don't think I ever heard of Taylor unti t he was 'in place. a 0kay. There js an allegation, simply an allegation, I'm not endorsing it. Perhaps the Ambassador at one time or another was disparaging the President, and I think one Member of Congress wrote a letter about that, and State Department offjcials have been disappointed about that allegation. Did you ever hear the Ambassador disparage the t2 Presi dent? I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 13 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 21 22 23 24 25 A a Counci Not in my presence. Did you ever hear anybody in the Natjonal Security 1 di sparage the President? A a A Yeah, Dr. 0kay. Hi 11. Could you help me understand that? Hit1, left her post to leave the government, I happened to drop by her office to say good-bye to her. I knew she was leaving, I think, in a few days or a week. I was at the White House for some other unrelated reason and I dropped up and we sat and had coffee. And she was pretty upset about her role in the administration, about her superiors, about the President. She was sort of shaking. She was pretty mad. Wel1, when Dr. 267 a A a A a A a A I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 She was mad? Yeah. Is that the first time you saw her mad? First time I've seen her like that, yeah. Did how long did you speak with her? 15, 20 mi nutes. She wasn't mad at you? No, no, she gave me a big hug and said stay in touch, she was going, I think, to Brookings or something af ter. a A ll And what did she relate to you? 20 just upset about everything having to do the Trump administration. 5he was upset at the President, she was upset wjth Ambassador Bolton, she was upset at a 1ot of thi ngs. a What specificatly did she say about the President? A Just that the whole, you know, operatjon was just not well run, or something to that effect. I mean, she was kj nd of i t was very unusual. I mean I 've never seen her f ike that. She's usually pretty ca1m, collected, 2t straightforward, but she was pretty emotional. t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 t9 She.was this a coffee you had with her, just you and a Was 24 A Yeah. 25 MR. J0RDAN: Excuse, Ambassador. When was 22 23 her? thjs meeting 268 1 wi th Dr. Hi t1? AI"IBASSADOR 2 SONDLAND: i'it know what 4 she was on her way I don't out i n next few days. 5 MR. JORDAN: What month? 6 AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: You have te11 me date, and then I can telI tJlR. CASTOR: 8 a few days her departure date was, but I th'ink she mentioned 3 7 was Her her departure you. last day was he 19th, July 1"9th. t4 it probably was sometime between, I don' t know, 15 , 14, L3 , somethi ng 1 i ke that. MR. JORDAN: After the July LOth meeting. AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Yeah, I think it would have been after the July L0th meeting, because that's 9 days before she 1eft. It would have been before the July 10th meeting and l5 her departure. 9 l0 ll t2 l3 AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: So BY MR. t6 CASTOR: t9 NSC was her issues with Ambassador Bolton? I thjnk she was just generally upset at the way the being run, and communicatjon, and disorder, and just 20 she sort of rai 1 i ng. t7 a l8 A was And what were railing against President 2l a She was 22 A Yes. 23 a Raif ing against Ambassador Bolton? 24 A Yes. 25 a Di ssati sf i ed wi th her role? Trump? 269 A a A I 2 I don't know that she said that. What else did she say? What can you te11 us? ll I was I sat and listened. I was trying to be a tittle bit of a shoulder, and we had coffee. And I wished her well. As I said, gave her a hug, and I don't befieve I 've spoken to her si nce. a Djd she mention why he was leaving specifically? A She just said she'd had enough. She wanted to go back to academia. a Were you surprised by this? A A 1itt1e bit, yeah, because as I said, I've never t2 seen her a J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 t4 I think she did tell takjng her a A a A l6 l7 emotional Did she tel1 you who would be taking over for her? a A l3 l5 that me that Mr. Morrison was p1ace. How has your relationshi p bei ng wj th ['/lr. l'lorr j son? Type, very straightforward. 20 jt is NSC right now? Yeah. Although I got to meet Director or Ambassador 0'Brien, I chatted w'ith him a little bit, but 2t generally, Bolton was not as accessi bIe as 0'Bri en appears to 22 be. l8 l9 23 24 25 So O A a Is it he your primary contact would be Morrison and 0'Brien. Uh-huh. My two primary. Do you sti11 talk with Lieutenant Colonel Vindman? 270 I 2 5 6 7 8 9 10 ll t2 l3 t4 I don't think I a Okay. But not with hjm in quite have spoken j because of any A a A O Haven't had any reason to. An occasion to? Yeah. You traveled where Lieutenant Colonel Vindman to President Zelensky's inauguration. A I don't know Is that correct? that we traveled together, but he was there, he was part of the delegation. a And anything notable about have d j nner w'ith h'im A I think that travel, did we included him 'in every l6 Perry was the leader 17 decide who was doing what. 20 2l 22 L) 24 25 a you or share any meals? or most of the parts of the event. It t9 falling out, it is ust haven't l5 l8 some time. J 4 A was of the delegation, it part of the event, really Secretary was up to him to Did you ever heard Lieutenant Colonel Vindman cri t'ici ze the Presi dent? A a Not to me. Have you ever heard anyone relate to you that Li eutenant Colonel Vi ndman has cri ti ci zed the Presi dent? I don't recalt that, no. t'4R. CASTOR: We're almost -- our time i s almost up, I want to make Sure if there are any members on our side that A I don't 271 I have a couple 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 questions? MR. ZELDIN: Ambassador, was there any one 2 J of else at the critical of the President? AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: No, not that I reca11. This was as I said it wasn't an exit interview because she didn't work for me, it was a drop-by to say good-bye, and that was the only time I heard someone bei ng cri ti cal. MR. ZELDIN: How was relationship with Bill Taylor? AI"IBASSADOR SONDLAND: I haven't spoken to him with whjstleblower. But prior to that, it was great. In other words, he several times was happy that Secretary Perry, NSC who was myself, and Ambassador Volker were helping support him because as he, to put in his words, he liked the high l5 visib'ility support which helped his mission. MR. ZELDIN: Why haven't you spoken to Bill Taylor after l6 the t4 t7 l8 t9 20 2l 22 23 whi stleblower complai nt? I haven't really spoken to anyone on the Ukraine file at the advice of counsel. MR. JORDAN: In your meeting with Dr. Hill shortly before she left the White House, did you discuss d'id Lieutenant Colonel Vindman come up in any of that discussion wi th Dr. Hi 11? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I don't think so. At'IBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 24 l"lR. J0RDAN: Okay. 25 MR. ROY: Just a quick question, 'is'it in the national 272 2 security interest of the United States that we instjll confidence with respect to our relationship with other J countri es, ri ght? I 4 AI4BASSADOR SONDLAND: ExactlY. l3 with respect to Secretary Perry, at any point in any of her engagement with him and the various trips and conversations repeatedly, you said you talked to him a 1ot, fri ends, was there anythi ng that was hj s primary focus our status with Ukraine, improving that status vi s-a-vi s Russi a, and maki ng Sure that our nati onal securi ty jnterests were being promoted with respect to natural gas' coal, economic interests, as well as pushing back on Russia, was that had the primary motivating factor behind your t4 observation 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll l2 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2l 22 L) 24 25 MR. ROY: And of what Secretary Perry was doing? AI"IBASSADOR SONDLAND: Yes . My i mpressi on of the Ukrajnians they were very impressed to have a cabjnet level member to take such a strong interest in the country. 273 I 2 [4:38 p.m.] MR. ROY: And woutd you characterize our current J relationship with Ukraine as improved based on these 4 engagements 5 to coal and natural gas, our presence 6 because of those engagements? 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 t3 t4 l5 l6 l7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 in trying to move the baIl forward with respect vis-a-vis Russia n, wi th 20/20 hi ndsi ght, now that I am privy to all of the different things that were going on that I wasn't at the time, I thought that with respect to my activities, first, my engagement with the Poroshenko team in Brussels, then ultimating culminating in a joint U.S.-EU visit to 0dessa in February, attending the inauguration, inviting President Zelensky to Brussels to meet wi th other European leaders, wh'ich, as I menti oned, resulted in him getting to know the President of Poland and a couple of other leaders, that they've now had some productive I thought we were on a ro11 with Ukraine until all of this blew up. I was very pleased with where we were going. MR. ROY: So alt of those engagements all along in that process that you are part of with Governor Perry sorry Secretary Perry you can take the guy out of Texas, but you know with Governor Perry was moving the ball forward with respect to our policy objectives and what we were trying to do to strengthen our position vis-a-vis Ukraine? AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: Again, at the time, yes. Al'4BASSADOR S0NDLAND: WeIl, agai 274 I MR. ROY: Thanks. J of the mi nori ty has expi red. Would you like to take a 5- or L0-minute break? 4 AMBASSADOR 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 6 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 7 THE CHAIRMAN: 2 8 9 THE CHAIRMAN: The time SONDLAND: ThAt WOUId bC NiCC. Let's shoot for AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. ll lRecess. l t2 THE CHAIRMAN: A11 right. Shalt we get started we again? Let's go back on the record. I want to recognize Debbie Wasserman And l5 l'4S. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Thank l6 Ambassador, l8 at 4:50, if That'd be great. t4 t7 resumlng could. l0 13 Thank you. you, Mr. Schultz. Chai rman. to see you again. AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Nice to see you. t'4S. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: I am both a member of it's good the t9 0versight Committee as well as the Appropriations Committee, 20 and so my questions are appropriations-focused. 2l AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: OkaY. 22 MS. 23 24 25 WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: You testifjed today I've been day that you don't beljeve that preconditions for aid were appropriate, correct? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: As a policy matter, I agree with here most of the 275 that, with respect to Ukraine SCHULTZ: Right. 2 M5. 3 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: - 4 MS. 5 Ukraine WASSERT'4AN WASSERT'4AN at this 7 you and your 8 Commi l0 staff are aware that the Appropriations ttee does, as Mr. Zeldi n referenced, the Appropri ati ons Committee, other committees, attach conditions to aid that we provide, correct? ll At'4BASSADOR t2 MS. l3 t4 moment. And, generally, you know, given that you have a budget, 6 9 - at thi s poi nt, at thi s moment. SCHULTZ: Yes. Yes, with respect to SONDLAND: WASSERMAN Correct. SCHULTZ: And you're in the habjt of fotlowing those instructions, correct? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: CoTTect. l6 0kay. And you testi f ied today that you were injtially unaware of the conditions that were t7 put on Ukraine by the President and the directions l8 Mr. Giulian'i? l5 1"1S. WASSERMAN t9 AMBASSADOR 20 MS. 2t 22 23 24 25 SCHULTZ: SONDLAND: WASSERMAN from Correct. SCHULTZ: Okay. What about the congressi onal condi tions? I wasn't aware of the congressi onal condi ti ons, because that aj d would've gone di rectly from the respective agencies to Ukraine. It would not have passed through my hand or I don't even thjnk the AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: 276 1 bi lateral M5. 2 hand. WASSERMAN ) even though you 4 component Right. And you were unaware did testify today that Ukraine was a central of your portfol At"IBASSADOR 5 SCHULTZ: i o. SONDLAND: The mean i ng 6 Congresswoman, was 7 Ukraine was very 8 ambassadori a1 9 was that the situation fragile at the time. change. We of my test i mony, between Russ'ia and We had the had the electi on i n Ukrai ne. I t l0 very touchy. And in the scheme of the U.S. budget, a quarter of a bjllion dollars, whjle that's a lot of money, is ll not a 1ot of M5. l2 l3 Commi t4 l5 l8 l9 20 2t WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Sure. I'm on the Appropriations ttee. AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: And you know that better than anyone. MS. t6 l7 money. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Yeah. I thought that, at that very moment jn time, having any delay whatsoever, once I found out that there was a hold and I d'idn't know what the purpose of the hold was that any delay would send the wrong signal to Russ'ia. That was my concern. AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: \,lS. WASSERT'IAN SCHULTZ: 22 But the delay that was occurring not as prescribed by 1aw. It was occurring because the 23 was 24 Pres'ident, through Mr. Giuliani, appears to have indicated 25 that unless there were investigations against the Bidens or 277 1 the company 2 AMBASSADOR J MS. S0NDLAND: WASSERMAN i didn't know why. SCHULTZ: Ri ght. 5 or you were not aware of the Approprjations Act requiring that the Pentagon certify that 6 when 4 7 8 9 However, you were Ukraine when they deemed Ukraine meeting the requirements of reducing corruption, that those funds would be released? Were you aware during any of this period of time of those requirements? l0 AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Not aware. t4 0kay. 5o, at no time, even though this was a central component of your portfolio, did it come up in any conversations that the taw actually required that the Pentagon certify that Ukraine had taken steps to l5 reduce corruption. lt t2 l3 MS. l6 WASSERMAN AMBASSADOR SCHULTZ: SONDLAND: As I indicated, my objective t7 to simply secure a meeting for President Zelensky. I l8 i nvol ved t'4S. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: l9 s, duri ng any was was not But that was not my question. of these conversatj ons duri ng thi 20 My questi on i 2t period of time, did it ever come up that Congress actually 22 had required 24 that the Pentagon certify that Ukraine had reduced corruption and then that aid could be released? AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: I don't recal1 that ever coming 25 up. 23 s 278 I MS. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: 0kay. J didn't believe that non-lawful preconditions would be required. Would it be your testimony 4 today that complying with the law and then the funds being 5 released 2 a 6 7 8 9 So, as you said, you is important? AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: I think complying with the law is atways i mportant. MS. WASSERI"IAN SCHULTZ: 0kay. We11, are you aware that on May 23rd, the same day as the meeting that you talked l8 after you attended the inauguration, the Pentagon did certify that Ukraine had taken steps, the steps necessary as required by the Appropriations Act, to reduce corruption and that the funds should be released? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I wasn't aware. MS. WASSERI"IAN SCHULTZ: 0kay. So, then, wouldn't you agree that, given that that occurred and that the Pentagon jndicated that they had complied and corruption had been appropriately reduced, that those funds should've been t9 released? l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 17 20 about with the President AI4BASSAD0R S0NDLAND: I'm not familiar, Congresswoman, 22 with atl of the conditions, whether it was simply that certification or there were other conditions necessary. I 23 don't 2t know enough about SCHULTZ: No, but 24 MS. 25 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: WASSERMAN -- the vagaries of funds 279 I released MS. 2 a J SCHULTZ: We11, WASSERMAN the Pentagon did. the Pentagon wrote a letter that I have here in Because my hand that 6 specifically said, Ukraine is in compliance with this public 1aw, and the funds, as a result, you know, should be released. And they had certified that thejr release was 7 appropri ate. 4 5 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: 8 9 l0 way. If all lawf ul Let me answer your question this condi t'ions had been met f or f unds release, then the funds should've been released. ll M5. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Ri ght. Okay. 5o then i t would 12 not have been appropriate for conditions unrelated to the 13 to be attached further. l4 15 AllBA55AD0R SONDLAND: MS. t7 AMBASSADOR t9 WASSERT'4AN SCHULTZ: Okay. Thank you. SONDLAND: Yeah. I just have a couple followup questions before I hand it back to Mr. Goldman. THE CHAIRMAN: My colleagues 20 2t If the 1aw required the funds to be released, they should've been released. t6 l8 on the mjnority asked you questions along the lines of, don't other countries, doesn't Europe attach 23 ti ons and someti mes those condi tj ons j nvotve fi ghti ng corruption, and I think you said that, yes, those kinds of 24 cond'itions are'imposed. 22 25 law condj Is that right? ANBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: That's ri ght. 280 THE CHAIRMAN: I But you would distinguish between J conditions to flght corruption and a condjtion imposed to get Ukraine to'investigate a political rival for help in a 4 reelection campaign. You can distinguish between those two 5 things, right? 2 S0NDLAND: I 6 AMBASSADOR 7 THE CHAIRMAN: The one 8 9 much not appropriate. AMBASSADOR Am can. is appropriate; the one, very I right? S0NDLAND: That' s correct. t6 for example, express its desjre to have a condition on its aid to Ukraine that Ukraine investigate the Bidens or the 2016 election in a way that would help Donald Trump. I assume Europe never expressed that v'iew to You. AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: Never heard that from Europe. THE CHAIRMAN: I want to ask you a couple followups on t7 the questions about the wh'istleblower complaint. You were l8 asked whether l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 THE CHAIRMAN: And you never heard Europe, 22 fair for the whistleblower to suggest that you or others had to navigate the demands that were imposed for a call or a meeting with President Trump. There were demands, weren't there, that an investigation take place of 2016 or Burisma? Ultimately those were 23 demands, were they not? t9 20 2t it was 24 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 25 THE CHAIRMAN: And Ultimately, yes. it's fair to say that you had to 281 I navigate those demands, you had to accommodate what the 2 President and his lawyer wanted, J this SONDLAND: AMBASSADOR 5 THE CHAIRMAN: My whj to set up I thi nK that's fai r. colleague also took i ssue w1th the stleblower characteri zati on of di fferi ng messages. You would agree 7 8 you were going meeting you thought very important? 4 6 if that Rudy Giuliani was meeting and talking to Ukrainians, would you not? AMBASSADOR 9 SONDLAND: Yes. t4 did not have ful1 visibility into what he was telling the Ukrain'ians, did you? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I did not. THE CHAIRNAN: Did you have a concern that what we might be telling the Ukrainians was not perfectly consjstent with l5 what you and Ambassador Volker l6 Ukrai ni ans? l0 ll t2 r3 THE CHAIRMAN: And you AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: t7 Yes, and that's why in the my I said we would've preferred to 1et the State l8 statement l9 Department handle the THE CHAIRMAN: 20 or others might be telling relati onshi p. And, jndeed, having a back channel or 2t second channel through the President's lawyer could cause 22 damage 23 po1 i a if that message was inconsistent with State Department cy. S0NDLAND: 24 Al\4BASSAD0R 25 THE CHAIRMAN: And It could. so part of your role was to try to 282 I contain whatever 2 that fai r to 3 4 5 6 7 damage that second channel might cause? Is say? AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: Well, "containing the damage" impties that we would 1et the try to fix it. I the fi rst p1ace. damage occur and then mean, our goal was never THE CHAIRMAN: somehow to have damage in But I think you said, Ambassador, that 8 over time things got more and more insidious. I think those 9 were your 13 words. It started out with no condition, and then there was a condj tjon for investigation into the corruption, and then there was a conditjon of an investigation into 2016 and Burisma, and then on the call itself it became clear the condition was investigation of 20LG and the Bidens. I think t4 you described l5 correct? l0 ll t2 l6 that as becoming more and more insid'ious, AI4BASSADOR SONDLAND: That's correct. 22 isn't it also fair to say that because there were added conditions to this meeting that Ukraine desperately wanted and that you wanted to make happen, that that meeting wasn't going to happen unless Ukraine played ball in meeting the demands of the President and Mr. Gj uli ani ? Isn't that a fai r use of that colloqui a1 23 express i on? t7 l8 l9 20 2t 24 25 THE CHAIRMAN: And AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: We11, that expression came up in previous testimony, and I'd never heard the term "play ba11." 283 2 you understand what that THE CHAIRMAN: But I means, ri ght? J SADOR SONDLAND A]',IBAS 4 would have 5 that If to be complied with pri or to getti ng a meeti ng, was my understanding. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 7 Mr 8 MR. G0LDMAN: Thank you. . Goldman. BY MR. 9 a l0 you mean that those condi ti ons You GOLDMAN: testified in the last round that, since the t6 or the transcript of the call record was released, you haven't spoken to anyone on the Ukrajne file at the advice of counsel. Is that right? A Except, I bef i eve, wi th, as I reca11 , j ust Secretary Perry. I think I testjfied to that earlier. a 0kay. But Secretary Perry was one of the three t7 ami ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l8 t9 20 whistleblower complaint was released, gos, A a A no? Correct. So he was on the Ukrainian file? I did I also testified I th'ink I called VoIker to thank him for his service when he And then 2l Ambassador 22 resi gned Ri ght. 23 a 24 You a1 so 25 read-out f rom I believe you said that you got a general someone on your staff of the Juty 25th call? 284 ll A Correct. a" 0kay. Did you get any read-out from the Ukrainian s'ide of that call? A I don' t remember seei ng a Ukrai n'ian read-out. I f someone sent me one, I di dn't i nternali ze i t. a How about a verbal read-out? A The only verbal read-out, Mr. Goldman, was, "It was a great ca1l." I mean, no one thought the call was remarkable other than the fact that, A, it had finally happened after multiple attempts, and, B, that the President's whatever their conversation was seemed to be a t2 pleasant conversati 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 l3 t4 a on. And you had an hour-long meeting with Mr. Zelensky the day after the ca11, right? 20 A Ri ght. a And this was a significant achjevement, to get the call at thi s poi nt, correct? A Correct. a And as part of your duties and responsibilities, you generally memori ali zed what occurred at meeti ngs w'i th 2t hi gh-1evel l5 l6 t7 18 t9 22 23 24 25 A leaders, ri ght? I was Ambassador a meet i ng? note-takers. And, as I said, this Volker's meeting that he jnvited me to. always have Right. So you had a note-taker there for this 285 I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll A I didn't a A a So you have one. I assume Ambassador Volker had one. did not have a note-taker. I did not have a note-taker. Do you know whether anyone from the United States or th'is meeti ng was taki ng notes? A I assume someone was taking notes. There were quite a few people at the meeting. delegati on there a A a f And someone from the State Department? Probably. Okay. And those notes would be transmitted back to l6 in some way? A If they were taken by the Kyiv Embassy, they would've been put into some cable form and sent back, yeah. a Okay. So, presumably, there is some memorialization of that meeting within the State Department t7 records, ri ght? 12 r3 t4 l5 V{ashington l9 A a 20 You also said l8 2t 22 23 24 25 I bel i eve that' s cor rect. OkaY. in your opening statement that there that the committee doesn't are that you think would corroborate your test'imony here today. Is that right? documents A a I be1 i have eve so. Can you descri documents would include? be, generally speaki ng, what those 286 1s, et cetera. I A Texts, 2 a Any memos that J A 4 a No. I think they were all electronic. All electroni c? 5 A Yeah. 6 a 0n your personal 7 A I 8 9 l0 l1 t2 emai phone? use a dual-SIM phone for both personal and busi ness a OkaY. Do you recal1 that you gave an interview television the day after the calt on July A a Uh-huh, I on Ukrai ni an 25th? do. t4 that you said that there were, quote, "certai n thi ngs that the Ukra'ini ans have to do, there are l5 precond'itions 16 White House meeting? l3 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 /.5 24 25 Do you reca11 to anything, " when describing the potent i al A If I said that in the interv'iew, yeah, I'm sure that's true. a What did you mean by that? A At the time, I probably meant, you know, getting the schedule strai ght, getti ng the commi tment. I thi nk that was when we were sti11, on the corruption continuum, on the plai n on the vani 11a corrupti on part of the conti nuum. I didn't t,{ant to imply, I believe, to the interviewer that the meeting was going to occur, you know, the next day. 287 I 4 t want to not have credi bi 1 i ty wi th the Ukrai ni an medja. So I wanted to, sort of, thread the needle of looking like we were being very supportive of Ukrajne, things were moving forward, but there stitl had to be some things to be 5 done before the meeting could occur. 1 2 J 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 )7 24 25 di dn' a Ri ght. just to be c1ear, the text message between Kurt Votker and Andrey Yermak where Volker speci fically identi fjes the message that President Zelensky needs to give to Donald Trump, that does not refresh your recollection on which was the day before this interview -- that does not refresh your recollection as to what the state of play was as to what the conditions were for the White House A No. As I said, I thjnk that part of the time we were sti11 jn the corruption vanjlla corruption part of the cont'inuum, as I reca11. a OkaY. We tatked a lot about the statement, so let's get to that. I want to turn your attentjon to page 4 of the text messages, whjch is exhibit 3. A 0kay. a And at the very bottom of that page, on August 9th at 11,:27, you write to Rudy Giuliani: "Hj 14r l4ayorI Had a good chat wj th Yermak last ni ght" oh, I 'm sorry. Thi s i s Kurt Volker writing this. And 288 I 2 J this A a Okay. 5o you you were we1l, 1et me ask you this. Do you see the on number the re? 4 A a 5 6 7 but you are on the are That's my number. 0kay, that's your number. So you' re on thi s chai n, right? A a 8 Yes. l3 writes, "Hi Mr MayorI Had a good chat with Yermak last night. He was pleased with your phone ca11. Mentioned Z making a statement. Can we all get on the phone to make Sure I advise Z correctly as to what he should be say'ing? Want to make sure we get thi s done ri ght. t4 Thanks ! " 9 l0 l1 t2 l5 t6 t7 l8 l9 20 2l time. And Kurt Volker And then you respond, "Good idea Kurt. I " A a it, you organize for am on Pacific Do you see that? i do. And then a 1itt1e bit below State Ops to organize the phone cal1. Do you remember having this conference call on August 9th with Kurt Volker and Rudy Giuljani? 23 Vaguely. Th1s i s one of the ca1ls I thi nk i descri bed i n my previous testimony wi th Rudy. I thi nk thi 24 was one 22 25 A of the conference ca1ls. a Ri ght. And th'is i s speci f i ca11y ref erenci ng a s 289 I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 statement, correct? A a Ri ght. clearly, Yermak was aware, Yermak bei ng senior advisor to President Zelensky, was aware of the for a statement based on this text. Do you agree wjth A I do. a 0kay. So what do you recall about that And, conversati A a desi re that? on? Again, without knowing exactly where we were on ll the, as I want to call jt, the continuum, th'is might have been beginning to morph into the press statement where the t2 Burisma/2015 election may have been introduced by Rudy. l0 2t I don't remember which call that was on, but, at some point, as I testified earlier, jt went from a generic corruption requirement to a more spec'ific requirement. And it could've been on this call; it could've been on a subsequent reca11. I don't reca11. a OkaY. If you can go to page 42, on August 9th, 5:35 p.m. -and this is a text chain between you and Kurt Volker -- you say, "Morrison ready to get dates as soon as Yermak 22 conf i rms. l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 23 24 25 " Is that Tim Morri son, the NSC sen'ior A Yes. a 0kaY. di rector? 290 1 And then Kurt Volker responds, "Excellent! ! How did you I d'id. I thi nk potus 2 sway hi m? : ) " You respond, "Not sure J rea11y wants the de1iverab1e." Volker responds, "But does 4 know that? 5 6 7 8 9 l0 l1 t2 " And you respond, "YeP. " What is the deliverable? A The deliverable, I believe, a And here you' A heard through Volker from a Ri ght. l5 related to Ukraine. 20 fi ca11y referenci ng the A a uli ani May 23rd I had . the i mpressi on, i n meeting, that what Rudy Giuliani to Ukraine is what the President wanted That's the only logical connection I could make. And then when Volker says, "But does he know that," and you say, "Yep, A a Gi So you sti 11 were under wanted related t9 speci That was my surmise, again, based on what t4 l8 re President, who wants the press statement. part based on the t7 was the press statement. l3 l6 he " who's "he" ? I think he was referring to Morrison. Okay. 24 1itt1e bit 1ower, at 5:51, you say, "To avoid misunderstandings, might be helpful to ask Andrey for a draft statement (embargoed) so that we can see exactly what they propose to cover. Even though Ze" 25 that's Zelensky, ri ght? 2t 22 23 Now, later -- and then a 291 J A Ri ght. "does a live presser they can sti1l summarize in a a brief statement. Thoughts?" And Kurt Volker says, 4 "Agree ! " 1 2 So do you know what happened? D'id Volker recommend that 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll the Ukra j A n'ians send a draf t statement to you? I recall this is refreshing my memory, and, as I reca11, this is when I believe there was talk about having a live interview or a live broadcast. And what I was As that Zelensky would say whatever he would say on live television and it still wouldn't be good enough concerned about was l3 for Rudy, sIash, the President, and then we would be having to go back and tel1 Zelensky, sorry, not good enough, and t4 that would be extremely t2 l5 So I embarrassi ng. had suggested, why don't you give us a summary of t7 to say so that j t can be run by t"'layor Giuliani first to nail down what it is exactly that the l8 Pres'ident was aski ng l6 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 what you ' re pl ann i ng or Gi ul i ani was aski ng versus what to say? I didn't want there to be a false press statement made live that was inadequate in some way. And I was, again, just trying to protect our reputation wi th the Ukrai ni ans. a OkaY. And then on August L0th at L:23 p.m., you write, "f briefed Ulrjch. Atl good. " Zelensky was intending 292 I Who's Ulrich? 2 A J the Sec That's Ulrich Brechbuhl, who is the counselor to reta ry. t2 a And do you recal1 briefing him on this? A I may have walked him through where we were. a About the statement? A Probably. a And what was his response? A Based on my text, his response was probably, "Fine." If he had had an adverse reaction to what was going on, he would've said something to me and I probably would've communicated 'it back. So, again, I'm speculating that I l3 bri efed hi m and everythi ng was copaceti c. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ll t4 a l5 Pompeo l6 A 0kay. on thi Do you know if he consulted with Secretary s? His habit is to, you know, consult with Secretary 2t frequently. I mean, that's why he' s the counselor. O Do you reca11 receiving specific authorization from Secretary Pompeo to go forward with arranging the statement wi th Rudy Gi u1 i ani ? A We1l, we never got the final statement. There was 22 noth i ng t7 l8 l9 20 23 24 25 Pompeo a A I know, but There was nothing were ready to go. to ask Secretary Pompeo until we 293 1 a 2 A J felt the need to brief Ulrich Brechbuhl. I talk to Ulrich all the time, just to keep him in WeI1, you the loop. 4 a 0kay. 5 A No. And so you don't know whether or not l6 this or not? I wasn't going to take anything back to the higher-ups until we had a tentative commitment from the Ukrainians, again, so I wasn't wasting anyone's time. a And you knew you needed a commitment that satisfied Rudy Gi uli ani 's des'i res, ri ght? A I knew I needed a commjtment that, yes, that Rudy Giuliani would represent that then there would be a meeting. a 0kaY. But the next text js a 1ittle bit later on August L0th, where Volker writes, "This came jn from Andrey." Is that t7 Andrey Yermak? 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l8 a A A O Secretary Pompeo was aware of Presumably. 22 "Hi Kurt. Please 1et me know when you can talk. I think jt's possibte to make this declaration and mention all these things. Which we discussed yesterday. But it wl11 be logic to do after we receive a 23 confirmation of date. t9 20 2t And then he says, quote, 24 of visit and about our expectations and our guarantees for future visit. 25 Let's di scuss i t. " We inform about date 294 What's going on here? 1 3 I think this was the back-and-forth between the Ukrainians and VoIker. What comes first, the chicken or the 4 egg? 2 A 6 a Uh-huh. Meaning, they wanted to get a date for Whi te House before they made an announcement about these 7 j nvesti gati 5 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 A a the ons? I s that correct? Presumably that's what was going on. Did you subsequently have another conversation with Andrey Yermak? A Wel1, I we had any about a We11, I had many conversations, but I don't know'if this. mean, yotl see that it says oh, I guess 24 this might be with Kurt Volker. A Yeah. No, but if your question was, after whatever the date was, did I have any other conversations with Yermak, I think the answer would be yes. a Okay. So, at the very bottom, on the L1th, VoIker says, "Hi Gordon ready i n 10 mi n? " You say, "Yes. " Volker says, " He needs another L5 mi n. So L0: 1.5 . " Do you think that's a reference to Yermak? A I don't know a You don't remember speaking to Yermak directly at 25 thi s ti t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 19 20 2l 22 23 me? 295 I 2 I don't. I thi nk, agai n, Kurt was handl i ng the back-and-forth on the press statement, and I kept the State A Ulrich Brechbuhl as to what was a J Department informed through 4 going on so that everyone was on the same page. a A 5 6 7 I can go back to page 5 wi th you Yeah, I was trying to navigate. Where are you, I'm And then i f sorry? l5 a Page 5. ' A Page 5? 0h. a Yeah, the group text wi th 14r. Gi u1j ani and Kurt Volker. 0n August L1th at L0:28, Ambassador Volker wri tes, "Hi Rudy we have heard bck" I assume that's "back" -"from Andrey again they are writing the statement now and will send to us. Can you talk for 5 min before noon today?" So do you know jf you ever had another conversation with t6 Mr 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 . Gi ul i 24 at least two conference ca1ls, and this may have been the second one or the first one. But, agai n, thi s was when we were 'in the process of goi ng back and forth on the wording of the statement. a And describe jn those conference calls what Rudy Giuliani what requirements he had for the press statement. A Thi s was when, i n mi d-August? Yeah, m'id-August. This was when we were in the Burjsma/2015 election part of 25 the conti nuum. l7 l8 l9 20 2t 22 23 A ani about thi s? I think we had 296 I 2 J Uh-huh. So he didn't say, we need to have statement that says that Ukraine must continue their anti -corrupti on efforts, ri ght? a a l8 I believe it then morphed when we started to work on the statement, it morphed from the vanilla corruption into the Burisma/2015 portion. a 0kay. wait L second. Sorry, 23. Now, if we go to page 43 A Twenty- th ree? a Yeah. this is a group So, at the bottom, the very last text text with you and Andrey Yermak and Kurt Volker -- Volker writes, "Special attention should be paid to the problem of jnterference in the political processes of the United States, especi a1ly wi th the alleged i nvolvement of some Ukrai n'i an politicians. I want to declare that this is unacceptable. We intend to initiate and complete a transparent and unbiased i nvesti gatj on of all avai 1ab1e facts and epi sodes, 'i ncludi ng l9 those i nvolvi ng Burj 20 turn will prevent the recurrence of this problem in 2t f 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 13 l4 l5 l6 t7 22 23 24 25 A uture. sma and the 2016 U. S. electi ons, whi ch in the " Is this the revised proposed statement with Rudy Gi u1 i ani 's i nput? A I t mi ght've been. I don' t know i f that language came from Giuliani or it came from Volker or if it came from 297 I the Ukrainians. I really don't a A a A 2 a J 4 5 6 Was this I don't know. approved language by Giuliani? know. don't know? I don't know if it was approved or it You was draft or what. t2 a But and so you don't know if this was sufficient -- if the Ukrainians released this statement -A I don't know'if it was sufficient. a You don't know jf it was sufficient. A No, I don't. a But i s th"is consi stent wi th what Rudy Gi uli ani had l3 'indi cated he wanted i n 7 8 9 l0 ll l5 A a l6 And t4 t7 18 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 the statement? Yes. Okay. so, to the extent that you were involved, in your role, in advocating for a White House meeting and whether and to whatever extent that a condition of that White House meeting was some sort of investigation, is it accurate that whatever that investigation was that the President needed was described or proscribed by Rudy G'iulian'i? A All the communi cati on flowed through Rudy Gi uf i ani and I can only speculate that the Presjdent was instructing hi s personal lawyer accordi n91y. I don't know. I don't know if this was coming out of Rudy Giuliani irrespectjve of the , 298 I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 P res i dent, because a A But when I wasn't involved in those conversations you descri be thi s conti nuum Yes. to, you know, whatever the condition 'is for the Wh'i te House meeti ng and i t evolves over time, whatever the evolution of it was was dictated by Rudy Giuliani. A Correct. E'i ther di rectly or through Volker or Perry or others. a OkaY. O as Now, you said the statement was never i ssued by the Ukra'ini ans, correct? A O A a A everyone a I bel i eve the 'idea was shelved. Do you know why? I don't. that 'it was shelved? I don't know that we ever got to a point where was in agreement. Do you know who determi ned Okay. this time period, in mid-August, do you recal1 an unofficial meeting with a Member of the House of Representat'ives at the Brussel s ai rport? A Refresh my memory. a Did you meet with anyone, any members of the Intelli gence Commi ttee, wi thout staff at the Brussels ai rport on or about August 1-5th? Now, around 299 1 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 14 l5 l6 l7 l8 19 20 A a A a A have. I don't know. You mean in the lounge? Yeah, in the lounge. Yeah. Who I did meet w'i th? I mean, you tell me. Do you remember? I don't remember. I meet wj th a lot of people as I may I 'm comi ng and goi ng. a Do you remember meeti ng w'i th Representati ve Nunes at that time? A I saw Representative Nunes in Brussels when he had a meeting there. I think we I think I saw hjm and we had coffee or something. But that wasn't at the airport; I thi nk that was in the city. a Okay. Just the two of you? A Yeah, I th'ink it was just the two of us. a Djd you discuss Ukraine at a1t in any way? A No, I th'ink it was just a, you know, shoot-the-breeze sort of conversation, as I recal1 it. Just sort of a frj endty, he's i n town ki nd of thi ng. a You don't recall Ukra'ine comi ng up at all? A I don't remember Ukraine coming up. 2l a 22 You've obvi ously d'iscussed and described some OkaY. th of 23 conversations you 24 Are there any other Congressmen or Senators that you 25 di scussi ng Ukrai ne i ssues wi th? had wi the Senator Johnson about Ukrai ne. remember 300 I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll 12 l3 t4 l5 A Not that on the del ega t i on was a And no one else? A Not that I can remember. a How about staff members from any committees in the House of Representatives? A I mean, one of the problems wjth my memory is that if I wasn't 'in Washington I'm most often in Brussels. Unless they were i n Brussels and they were comi ng through 'in a codel it specifically, I don't know that I sought anyone out to speak to them about Ukraine. a Uh-huh. And did you have any conversations with any of the minority staff before your testimony here today? A Not to the best of my knowledge, lro. and asked me about a No? t7 18 MR. LUSKiN: t9 Senator Johnson, because he . A a l6 I reca11. No. Did your attorney? Ambassador I with Mr. Castor. Sondland's statement -spoke 20 MR. G0LDMAN: You want 2t MR. LUSKIN: We did We did not share to repeat that? not discuss the substance of his 22 testimony, and we djd not share Ambassador Sondland's 23 statement wi th him i n advance. 24 MR. GOLDMAN: A11 25 THE CHAIRMAN: right. At this point, 1et me recognize the 301 members for questi ons. 2 Mr. Himes, do you have some questions? J lvlr 4 MR. HECK: Thank you very much. 5 Mr. Ambassador, just to nail down a couple foundatjonal 6 7 . Heck? facts, you were confirmed by the Senate on June 28th of last year in a presumably unanimous voice vote? SONDLAND: 8 AMBASSADOR 9 MR. HECK: And l0 and had moved ll because l3 the that a short L2 days later, you were packed up to Brussels? AMBASSADOR t2 Correct. SONDLAND: Yeah. I was confirmed quickly was the NATO summit and I had to be Europe for NATO summit. living prior to t4 MR. HECK: Where were you l5 AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: l6 Seattle, Washi ngton. MR. HECK: Is that your tegal residence? t7 AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: l8 l'lR. HECK: Do you have a l9 At'IBASSAD0R SONDLAND: 20 l'1R. HECK: What 2t AMBASSADOR 22 MR. HECK: Are you registered )1 AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: 24 MR. HECK: In which State? 25 AI'4BASSADOR SONDLAND: Wash i ngton. ]t I iS. driver's license? do. State i ssued i t? SONDLAND: Washi ngton. I to am. vote? that? 302 you, sir. That's all I I MR. HECK: Thank 2 THE CHAIRMAN: J MR. R0UDA: Thank you, Chai rman. Representative have. Rouda. t2 for being here. I know it's tough to remember all these conversations and texts and the essence of it over many, many months. And, you know, I can't even remember what I had for lunch yesterday, and I know you had a tough time remembering your conversation wj th Secretary Perry yesterday. So I real1y want to focus on the continuum. And when President Zelensky came into office and won the election, he won based on a platform of fighting back against corruption, l3 right? 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll Thank you, Ambassador, SONDLAND: COTTCCt. t4 AMBASSADOR l5 MR. ROUDA: And i think the diplomatic l6 consensus wi th your fel1ow leaders, t7 Yovanovitch, Bolton, everyone l8 address corruption in consensus, your Volker, Dr. felt this Hi 11, was a good change to Ukraine. That's ri ght. And that this was better than the previous S0NDLAND: t9 AMBASSADOR 20 MR. ROUDA: 2t President, the previous President who many believed was very 22 corrupt, 'includi ng the people )7 AMBASSADOR 24 MR. ROUDA: So, 25 where who voted i n Ukrai ne. SONDLAND: COTTCCt. in that continuum, as you talked about, it moved from corruption to Burisma, what was so 303 I 2 special about Burisma? I mean, when that was your reaction? Why Burisma? name came uP, what 6 I don't know. In hindsight, I should've asked more questions about Burjsma. But it was something that was important, apparently, to Mr. Gjuliani and to the President. And, again, my focus was on getting the 7 meeting and getting the phone cal1. ) 4 5 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: l7 in Ukraine for decades. And if a new President is coming in who's, we hope, better posi tioned to address corruption, why i s i t moved to a single company and not multiple companies with a tong hjstory of corruption? AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: First of all, I agree with you, I think there should not have been any preconditions to the meeting. I think the meeting should've just taken place shortly after the inauguration. MR. ROUDA: But were you curious as to why this name of l8 one company came up? t9 AMBASSADOR 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 20 2t MR. ROUDA: But corruption has been rampant S0NDLAND: We11, as I said, also Naftogaz up, and there was a general consensus or list of apparently a bunch of jnvestigations relating to corruption came 24 that had been suspended under the previous Presjdent that President Zelensky, I believe, in his platform had said, I'm going to restart at1 of these investigations. And I don't 25 even know what they related to. 22 23 304 MR. R0UDA: But I guess the part I'm struggling with is, 3 you're a rea11y smart guy. You've been incredibly successf ul, so successf u1, you're able to give a m'i11ion 4 dollars to the 5 diplomatic position where 2 i naugurati for Trump. And you' re i n thj s it's rea11y important that you on l8 of the information so that you can put the best foot forward for our country in the relations with not just Ukraine but all the countries in your portfolio. You want to make sure that you don't step into anything accidentally that would reflect poorly on the country. So, agai n, I 'ffi j ust ki nd of curi ous, why aren' t you curious to know more about Burisma? A Yeah, I mean, thi s was wi thout soundi ng 1 i ke I 'm passing the buck, this was primarity Ambassador Taylor and Ambassador Volker's fi1e. And in terms of this issue, I was there to lend support. I'm not, you know, shirking my responsibility, but it did not rise to the point, until the meeting never occurred, that I began to get more and more t9 suspicious about what was going 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 20 2t 22 23 24 25 understand at1 on. didn't ask anybody, hey, why Burisma? AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: I did not. MR. ROUDA: 0kay. Did you ask anybody about, why the 2015 elect'ion, what about the server, what's that all about? President Trump, AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Wetl, that when he brought it up, you know, "They tried to take me MR. ROUDA: So you 305 I 2 J 4 5 it to do with that. MR. ROUDA: 5o with Zelensky coming into the Presidency and hjs administration, the hope is that corruption is going to go down. How long did Pres'ident Trump freeze the aid to Ukraine in 2018? down," I assumed had something 7 I'm not MR. R0UDA: You're not aware? 8 AI"IBASSAD0R SONDLAND: AMBASSADOR 6 S0NDLAND: Are you saying l0 I'm saying 2018. Al\4BASSADOR S0NDLAND: I'm not ll MR. R0UDA: Did he freeze t2 AMBASSADOR l3 MR. R0UDA: You t4 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: l5 MR. ROUDA: But you were t6 AMBASSADOR 1'4R. 9 t7 aware. in 20L9 or 20L8? ROUDA: of 2018. I SONDLAND: don't S0NDLAND: aware. the aid? I dON't KNOW. know. I don't I only know. became Ambassador MR. ROUDA: Ri ght. t9 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: Yeah. 20 MR. ROUDA: So you 2t would've known about it? think if he did freeze the aid SONDLAND: 22 AMBASSADOR 23 MR. ROUDA: You represent 29 countries portfolio. 25 Uni middle wasn't l8 24 in How many ted States? you NO. in your of those countries receive aid from the 306 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: I 2 J 4 Agajn, the aid flows through the not through the EU. So I wouldn't whether a country is getting aid or not getting aid. MR. ROUDA: But you knew Ukraine was getting aid. bilateral ambassador, know l0 I did not know Ukraine was getting ajd until this all came up in 2019 and I heard that there was a freeze on the aid and it was in the context of another obstacle to getting the meeting. MR. R0UDA: So, to the best of your knowledge, President Trump, in 2018, when, arguably, Ukraine is under a more ll corrupt administration, no aid was withheld from Ukraine t2 under President Trump's administration? 5 6 7 8 9 AMBASSADOR AMBASSADOR 13 t4 l5 I6 t7 S0NDLAND: S0NDLAND: If you say so, Congressman. I don't you're not aware of any aid being withheld to the other 28 countries in your portfolio under President Trump in 20L8 or 20L9. You're not aware of it. MR. R0UDA: 0kay. And S0NDLAND: l8 AMBASSADOR t9 MR. R0UDA: 0kay. I haven't recei ved any complai nts. 22 to recal1 all this stuff, you know, these conversations. Some of them have taken place in the past. But i am kind of curious, because when you 23 recalled your conversation with 24 were very 20 2l 25 And I know it's rea11y tough Ambassador Yovanovitch, you specific. A lot of detail there about how emotional she was, how mad she was, how she was railing on 307 Trump and Bolton. Why 2 J do you think you had such greater recollection your conversati on wi th her? I 'm sorry. Hi 11 Dr. Hi11. S0NDLAND: That was 4 AMBASSADOR 5 I",lR. ROUDA: 6 AMBASSADOR Dr. Hit1. because i t was so 8 deportment. Hi 11 . My apologies. SONDLAND: 0n1y because 7 . Sorry. on it stuck out to me unusual. That was not her usual l0 of the thi ngs we've talked about today are highly unusual, that one seemed to rea11y ll resonate? 9 l"lR. ROUDA: Even thought many t2 AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I t resonated l3 never seen anyone so upset. t4 MR. ROUDA: Okay. l5 The last thing l6 Secretary Perry resi gned. t7 l8 t9 20 AMBASSADOR any S0NDLAND: I haven't f"lR. ROUDA: correct, but I want to ask you: I di dn' t w'ith me because I 've My understanding know is that. I haven't had had any phone access. Don't hold me to i t. The reports may not so you weren't aware of 2t Al"lBAS SADOR S0NDLAND 22 MR. ROUDA: 23 AMBASSADOR 24 MR. ROUDA: Okay . 25 AMBASSADOR : No be that? That's a -- . -- surprise to you? S0NDLAND: Absolutely. Thank you S0NDLAND: . In fact, we are scheduled to meet 308 I on Sunday in Brussels 2 to for an energy conference. So, all me. J MR. ROUDA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: I yield back. Mr. Kri shnamoorthi. 7 April 21st, President Zelensky was elected President of Ukraine, and around that time Donald Trump made a phone call to him, 8 congratulating him, right? 5 6 MR. KRISHNAI'400RTHI: Plr. Sondland, on AMBASSADOR 9 SONDLAND: I bel i eve that ' s t rue t'lR. KRISHNAMO0RTHI: And were you a l0 ll SONDLAND: I l3 MR. KRISHNAM0ORTHI: Were you l6 t7 part of that briefed before or after call about the contents of the call? AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: I was not. MR. KRISHNAl'400RTHI: I wanted to ask you about Ukraine. Do you have any interests in Ukraine? that phone l8 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: None. t9 MR. KRISHNAM00RTHI: No busi ness i nterests? 20 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: None 2t MR. KRiSHNAI'400RTHI: When you 22 23 24 25 phone was not. AMBASSADOR 15 . call? t2 t4 news whatsoever. said in your statement, on of your statement, you di d not understand unt'i1 much later that Mr. Gi u1i ani 's agenda mi ght have also i ncluded an ef f ort to prompt the Ukrai ni ans to i nvesti gate V j ce Pres'ident Biden or his son or to involve Ukrainians directty or page 8 309 2 indirectly in the President's 2020 reelection campaign, why did you why do you think that either of those activities J are problemati I AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: 4 5 c? it would be improper Because I befieve I testified that to do that. 6 MR. KRISHNAMOORTHI: And i11ega1, right? 7 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: I'm not a lawyer, but I assume so. ll last question, whjch is: Do you believe that, with regard to Burjsma, that the effort by Giuliani to investigate Burisma, now that we know that it was actually intended to go after Mr. B'iden's son Hunter, was t2 ever a proper inquiry? 8 9 l0 l3 t4 MR. KRISHNAM00RTHI: Sir, one I mean , I thi nk I test'if i ed to that at the beginning, that jt would not be proper. At"IBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: l5 MR. KRISHNAM00RTHI: And i 11ega1, correct? t6 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: Agai t7 know the 1aw n, I'm not a lawyer. I don't exactly. It doesn't sound good. l8 VlR. KRISHNAMO0RTHi: Thank you. t9 AMBASSADOR 20 2t 22 23 24 25 SONDLAND: You're welcome. I don't remember the order in which people came in. Who would like to be recognized next? I'11 leave 1t to either one of you. l"lR. ESPAILLAT: Ambassador, I want to go along the same line of questioning. I mean, obviously, the acknowledgement of corruption seems to be a prominent issue. THE CHAIRMAN: 310 J First, in your testimony, for example on page 5, you say, "Corruption poses challenges to the legi timacy and stabi 1i ty of government. Corruption 'is also an economic 4 i ssue. I 2 " 7, you again state that "to make reforms to attract Western economic investment and to Then on page 5 6 necessary 7 address the Ukraine's well-known longstanding corruption 8 i ssues. " Again on page 7, you refer 9 to President Zelensky as "a l0 reformer who received a strong mandate from the Ukrajnian ll people t2 prosperi ty. to fight corruption and pursue greater economic " l4 corruption seems to be an important issue, as you've hi ghl i ghted i n your testimony today, i n your statement. And, l5 furthermore, it seems to be of greater importance when the t6 names t7 as you've stated 18 today. l3 So Burisma and the 2015 How many l9 20 of team like? election continuousty pop up, in your statement and in your testimony folks do you have working for you? What's your How many people do you have working for About 150. 2t Al'IBASSADOR S0NDLAND: 22 MR. ESPAILLAT: You have 150 people working for you. 23 any time when you heard the word "Burisma," as it 24 connected to corrupti on, di d you evelinstruct 150 staffers to research the company? any 25 you? was of your At 311 AI4BASSADOR I 2 Taylor and Ambassador J 1 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 13 l4 l5 t6 l7 l8 i nes 2t 22 23 24 25 No, of thi s. MR. ESPAILLAT: Did anybody google the word "Burisma, " yourself or a staffer? AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: I didn't do it. I don't know about anyone else. MR. ESPAILLAT: So none yourself, after of your 150 staffers, bei ng de1 i berately concerned about nor corrupti on in the Ukraine and hearing consistently the name "Burisma" come up, not one of your staffers, L50 of them, nor yourself, ever researched the company or googled the company or find out who was on its board of directors? Is that accurate? AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: That' s cor rect. . Now THE CHAiRI'4AN: I'm sorry. 0ur t jme has expi red, but we'll be happy to come back to you in the next round. MR. ESPAI LLAT: 0kay Mr. Castor. BY MR. CASTOR: t9 20 I did not. Again, Ambassador Volker were, sort of, on the front SONDLAND: a Goi ng back to exhi b'it No. 8, the whi stleblower complaint, exhibit 8 -- A a A a t 8? Exhibit 8. Exhi bi 0kay. Page 4. I just want to clarify that the last 312 of the first paragraph under Roman III I sentence 2 the sentence we reviewed before with "navjgate" ) "demands. 4 and "these meetings" A a 5 6 7 8 " "Based on multip1e readouts this is and of these meetings" refer to the meetings on JuIy 25th? Yes. "Ambassadors Volker and Sondland reportedly to the Ukrai ni an leadershi p about how to 'navigate'the demands that the President had made." provi ded adv'ice But on July 25th, you were not aware the President 9 had l4 Is that correct? A Wel1, I think we were aware at that point that the Presi dent wanted I thi nk thi s was sti 11 i n the vani 11a corrupti on part of the conti nuum. Because, agai n, we di dn't get a transcript of the actual call until, I think, l5 September. l0 ll t2 l3 any demands. a A l6 Rl ght. 2t of investigating the Bidens I don't believe would've come up in that meeting because we weren't aware of i t. a Okay. So, duri ng that meeti ng, I mean, i f i understand your testimony, the statement didn't come up 22 and t7 l8 l9 20 L) 24 25 A a A So this I don't whole notion remember it coming up. 0kaY. Di dn't flag j t for me. 313 I 2 J 4 a And then just flipping back to page 7, the first butlet point: "that State Department officials, including Iyourself and] Ambassador Volker, had spoken with l"lr. G'iu1i an j i n an attempt to 'contai n the damage. ' " l0 I mean, none of your communications with Mr. Giuliani were trying to contain any damage, because you didn't know any damage had occurred. Is that correct? A Wel1, as I said, my conversations because they're lumping Volker and me together my conversatjons wjth Giuliani reatly centered around negotiating this press ll statement. 5 6 7 8 9 t2 a A OkaY. l5 to call that containing the damage, I guess you cou1d, but I don't see 'it as that. a Yeah. I don't understand how that could be l6 contai ni ng the damage. l3 t4 If you want t9 this same timeframe, multi ple U. S. of f ic j als told me that the Ukrai ni an leadersh'ip was led to believe that a meeting or phone call between the 20 President and President Zelensky would depend on whether t7 l8 2t 22 23 24 25 The next sentence: "During to 'p1ay ball. ' " Now, as far as you know, the Ju1y call was scheduled wi thout any precondj tions, right? A Ultimately, yes. a The company Burisma has been the subject of a Zelensky showed w'i11i ngness 314 5 of i nvesti gations j n Ukrai ne over the years. You're aware of that, right? A I am now. a And to the extent Ukrainians are investigating other Ukrai n'ians f or wrongdoi ng i n the company of Buri sma, 6 that would be perfectly acceptable, correct? I 2 J 4 number ll A Presumably. a Okay. Now, you're aware that Hunter Biden was asked to serve on the board of Burisma, correct? A Based on press accounts, yes. a Yeah. Do you know whether l4r. Biden has any t2 corporate governance experience? 7 8 9 l0 l3 I don't. A O l5 Okay. And, you know, i s i t conce'ivable that Ukrainians could have decided to place Mr. Biden on the l6 because they wanted 14 t7 18 A a board to curry favor with the U.S.? Conceivable. Okay. And if they did and if the decision to place t9 him on the board was improper and the Ukrainians found 20 evidence 2t i nvesti of that, wouldn't it be fair that they would gate that? 24 for my oPinion? Wel1, i t's j ust, i f there was wrongdoi ng assocj ated with placing Hunter Biden on the board, wouldn't that be 25 somethi ng 22 23 A a Are you asking worth i nvesti gati ng? 315 z J A a Seems to be. Okay. I'm going to ask you a very odd fact that came up in 5 interview. I just want to get your reaction to it. Have you ever encouraged Romanians to show up at the Whi te 6 House wi 4 7 8 another A a thout an appoi ntment? No. Okay. If someone were to suggest that, would you 22 for that was? A WelI, one of the things that I wound up doing was helping bilateral ambassadors what do you call it? advocate f or meet'ings of thei r country's leaders. So, occasionally, I would get a phone call from a biTateral ambassador and say, "0ur Presjdent would 1ike to meet with Presi dent Trump. I 've had a request i n for months. Could you help? Could you help push? a Now, when you A So that's the context jn which I would join with my bilateral colleague and call someone at the White House and say, I thjnk this is very important that we get the President of fill-in-the-blank EU country jn to see President Trump. But have I ever sa'id, you j ust show up at the Wh'ite 23 House wj 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 18 l9 20 2t 24 25 have any idea what the basjs a A thout an appoi ntment? Yes. No. No. 316 a I 2 U.S And by bilateral ambassador, you mean the ambassador? A The U.S Like another State Department 6 a A a 7 And you J 4 5 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 18 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 ambassador to the parti cular country emptoyee. Correct. 0kaY. can't just show up to the White House and get in, right? A Correct. O You've got to have a meeting. And before the meeti ng, you've got to do certai n thi ngs, correct? A That's ri ght. a 0kay. Did anyone in the National Security Council ever express concern to you that you were using an unsecure mobile device i n your dj scussi ons wi th other j nternati onal leaders? A Never. a President Zelensky's i nauguration was scheduled relatively quickly. Is that fai r to say? A I thi nk that's ri ght. a A matter of days, even? A Yeah, I think the date was sort of floating, and they nai Ied i t down somehow. a And the U.S. delegation, in advance of the trip, was in flux? 317 A a Correct. point, it's J to us, that Vice President Pence was considering going? Is that 4 somethi ng you 2 5 6 7 8 9 go. A a And at one been related I had heard that, yes. 0kay. And then, as it turned out, he was unable to Do you know why? A a I don't. Do you know i f hi s deci s'ion not to attend was l0 related to any of the things we've been discussing today, u such as the Burisma matter, the 2015 t4 I don't know why he didn't go. 0kay. So there's no reason you have no evidence to suggest that Vjce President Pence's participation in the l5 inaugural was withheld from Ukraine as an admonishment for 16 not playing ball or something of that sort? 12 l3 A a l8 A a l9 MR. CASTOR: t7 I don't remember anything to that effect. OkaY. Mr. Zeldin. 2l I'm picking up where my colleague was just asking you some additional questions about Burisma. Do you 22 know why Burisma 20 MR. ZELDIN: and do you know whose Zlochevsky 23 AI'4BA55AD0R SONDLAND: Who? 24 MR. ZELDIN: Zlochevsky. 25 AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: No. is? 318 MR. ZELDIN: Do you know 1 th why so Zlochevsky was an p stake i n Buri sma. Do you know 2 o1i garch wi J Burisma and Zlochevsky were under investigation for 4 corruption in the Ukraine? ownershi SONDLAND: I why dO NOt. 5 AMBASSADOR 6 MR. ZELDIN: But you are aware that Hunter Biden was 8 hired for a paid position on the board of directors? AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: Again, based on press accounts, 9 recent press accounts, yes. 7 l1 did they indicate that Hunter Biden was getting paid at least $50,000 per t2 mont.h? 10 MR. ZELDIN: Those press accounts, l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: of those press accounts indicate that he h?d no energy experience or Ukraine experience? ANBASSADOR SONDLAND: Yes. that Vice President Joe B'iden went to Ukraine in 2016 and successfully got the prosecutor general, the state prosecutor, fjred? MR. ZELDIN: Are you aware SONDLAND: 22 MR. ZELDIN: The name 25 figure close to that, MR. ZELDIN: Did any AMBASSADOR 24 reca11 a yeah. 2l 23 I Again, based on press accounts. of that state prosecutor, V'iktor Shoki n. Are you aware, based on those press accounts, that the Vice President threatened Ukraine with the loss of $1 b'i11ion 319 I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 l9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 jf they didn't immediately fire that state prosecutor? 320 I [5 : 50 p.m. AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 2 J ] Again, based on recent press accounts, yes. l4R. ZELDIN: 4 Is it fair that there's a lot about 5 Burisma, Zlochevsky, Hunter Biden and Joe Biden that 6 don't know about? Correct. 7 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 8 MR. ZELDIN: Do you have 9 Presi l0 a problem with the Vice dent's son bei ng pai d $50,000 a month i n Ukrai ne? THE CHAIRMAN: We' re getti ng very far afi e1d i f we' re ll asking the Ambassador's opinion on what t2 paid to serve on a board. MR. ZELDIN: But you have asked 13 t4 of things related to this, l6 Ambassador can someone should be for his opinion on a 1ot and I'm going to THE CHAI RMAN: You know, l5 you I don' t th i nk I have. The venture an opinion on thjs, but MR. ZELDIN: Wel1, he has been asked many questions l7 t9 his assessment of whether it was right or wrong. are going to get into just what basis of information he 20 has l8 about So 23 re talk'ing about dl plomati c ef f orts and shadow foreign poficy, but I'II 1et the witness answer. It just seems an odd opinion question to be asking of this 24 wi 2l 22 25 THE CHAiRMAN: We' tness. AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: I have no opinion. we 321 1 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 that it would be appropriate for the son of the Vice President to be paid $50,000 a month from an entity in one of the countries'in your portfolio, run has no by an oligarch under corruption, and that person is energy experience or no Ukraine experience? You don't have any opinion? You have no problem with that? At'IBASSADOR S0NDLAND: Congressman , I can ' t specul ate as to why they hired him or what they paid him. That wouldn't be right on my part to speculate. MR. ZELDIN: Do you believe that there would be any conflict of interest for the Vice President to be having the 1et me backtrack a moment. Are you aware that Vi ktor Shok'in, that state prosecutor, had an open investigation 'into Burisma and Zlochevsky at the time that he made that threat? MR. ZELDIN: Do you believe AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: 0nly through recent press accounts. l9 any do you see any issue with the Vice President issuing that threat if his son is 20 being paid $50,000 a month from that enti ty? 18 2t 22 23 24 25 MR. ZELDIN: And do you have If I could just state for the record, I think the evidence we've received thus far indicated there was no open investigation. You can posit an allegat'ion, but that's not been the MR. l'lEADOWS: Mr. Chairman, wjth all due respect, I THE CHAIRMAN: 322 1 don't mind you opining on your 45 mjnutes. And this is a 4 deposition, and unless you want us opining on your 45 mi nutes, 1et' s leave i t to the questi ons and answers. He' s got three capable counselors there that I'm sure are paid far 5 more than you and 6 and should not answer. 2 J 7 8 9 I are paid to advjse him on what he should THE CHAIRMAN: The be facts not objection, 'if in evidence. l'4R. MEADOWS: we were in court, would And But the objections if we were in court l0 would be on you leading the witness over and over and over ll again. t2 THE CHAiRMAN: l3 MR. NOBLE: t4 THE CHAIRMAN: l5 MR. l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 I don' That's t thi nk i t's fai r admi ssi b1e i n court. I don't think it's fa'i r ZELDIN: By the way, the question was, are you aware that there was an open case? THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think it's fair to this witness to asf him if he is aware of facts which are not, in fact, facts. If you want to say, are you aware that there is an allegati on, that's fi ne. MR. lvlEADOWS: We11, Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, you have indicated facts regarding a 2020 campaign investigation that are not facts, they're merely your opinion. So if we want to get in this back-and-forth, I'm more than willing to get into a colloquy with you with the 323 1 facts, because the facts are on my side. 5 just caution the witness facts represented by members may not actually be facts, but you are free to answer their questions. AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: I can't express an opinion on 6 Mr. Bi den's employment. 2 J 4 7 8 THE CHAIRI'{AN: I would aware do you know if Viktor had an open investigation into Burisma and Zlochevsky MR. ZELDIN: Are you Shokjn tl at the time that V'ice President Biden threatened Ukraine with the loss of $f b'i11ion? ANBASSADOR SONDLAND: I'm not aware. Agai n, all of my t2 awareness comes from recent press reports. 9 l0 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 . Ambassador, let me j ump i n. I don't want you answering to facts that are not facts. I want to make that clear for the record. I also don't want you to MR. MEAD0WS: 5o, Mr give opinion on things that you're not an expert on. And I can tel1 that some of your reluctance with my 20 is that you don't want to weigh jn. And so, as much as we might want you to weigh in, and as much as the other side might want you to weigh jn on facts that are not 2t necessarily facts, I want you to stick to that. Can I 22 interject? l8 t9 23 24 25 colleague that I do believe that there we are conflat'ing two different things. We're conflating foreign aid and javelins at tjmes. Would you agree with that? That Here is one area 324 I foreign aid, the foreign aid that was withhetd was not 2 actually J any conversation where javelins were being withhetd? wi thhotdi ng j avel i n defense i tems. Are you aware of AMBASSADOR 4 S0NDLAND: My knowledge of the aid package is 7 n, my focus j t sounds very narrow, but you have a ful1-time b'i1ateral Ambassador who would deal with those issues. That was Ambassador Taylor and prior to that, 8 Ambassador 9 their portfolio. 5 6 very limi ted. Agai Yovanovitch. That is right jn the center lane of Then on top of that, which is unusual, you t2 that a Special Envoy, whose sole focus is to oversee the Ukraine portfolio. My role in this was to use whatever influence I had at 13 the t4 I did not get into the peculiari ties l0 ll have layered over NSC and the White House to help advocate for a meeting. l6 that advocation for the meeting, your advocating for that meeting was in the sole interest, best t7 i l8 that l5 MR. MEAD0WS: And nterest of the Uni ted States and our nati onal securi ty. Is cor rect? SONDLAND: l9 AMBASSADOR 20 14R. MEADOWS: 2t AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 22 23 24 25 ThAt iS COrrECt. 100 percent? L00 percent. 99, 100 percent in the best interest of our country. Is that correct? AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: In my view, yes. VlR. I"lEADOWS: Okay. And so, 'in advocating for this MR. MEAD0WS: Not 325 1 meeting, in advocating to make sure that the new President 2 Zelensky was, indeed, set on a new path, you were very J encouraged 4 Is that correct? that he was seri ous about addressi ng corrupti That i s cor rect. 5 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 6 MR. MEADOWS: Because my llr. Shokin, and I on. colleague was talking about 8 his reputation was one that he was not serious about real1y rooting out corruption. Had you 9 heard that? 7 l0 ll t2 AMBASSADOR guess S0NDLAND: reports. MR. I'IEAD0WS: Had you heard about l3 that replaced him, that t4 corruption? l5 l6 t7 l8 l9 20 Again, based on recent press the speci at prosecutor he was not serious about rooting out AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: Contemporari 1y, yes. of those individuals were not serious. So we were taking a leap of fajth, a leap of faith that this new government was going to get rjd of corruption, which was contrary to all history that we know about with Ukrai ne. Is that correct? MR. MEAD0WS: 5o both S0NDLAND: You can always dream. 2t AMBASSADOR 22 MR. MEAD0WS: A11 that the right, we can always dream. Would you European Union, prior to 23 agree 24 simi 1ar view wi th President Donatd Trump 25 a way of life in the Ukraine? May of 2019, shared a that corruption was 326 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: I 2 They were concerned about I thi nk j t's fai r to say. MR. MEAD0WS: A11 right. And had any of the European corrupti on, J 4 Union raised corruption issues about the Ukraine with you in 5 your ro1e, in your official role as Ambassador for the AMBASSADOR 6 SONDLAND: Yes. In fact, the offi EU? ci a1 that 7 traveled with me to 0dessa, who was the Secretary General of 8 the EU, raised it himself with President Poroshenko at our 9 bi l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 lateral meeti ng. MR. MEADOWS: A11 right. So you're saying that people of thj s admi ni strati on raj sed wi th the previ ous President their concern about corruption. Whether or not it had anything to do with any individual, they were just generally concerned about corruption. Is that correct? outsi de AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: Corruption per s€, yes. l8 yield back. MR. ZELDIN: If the President of the United States has a problem with the former Vice President of the United States' t9 son being paid $50,000 a month w'ith no energy experience l6 t7 20 2t 22 23 24 25 MR. MEADOWS: A11 right. I can and if the President of the Unjted States has a problem with the Vice President running point for the Obama admi ni strati on and threateni ng to wi thhold $1 bi 1f i on of U.S. aid if the State prosecutor isn't fired, and if the Pres'ident of the United States is aware that there was an investigation into the entity that was paying Hunter Biden no Ukraine experience, 327 t2 that, and if the President of the United States believes that there was an open investigation'into Burisma and Zlochevsky at the time of Vi ce Presi dent Bi den's threat, i f the Presi dent of the Un'i ted States has a problem with all of this, is that a reasonable position, 'is that an acceptable position for the President of the United States to want to look into that further? AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: I can't express an opinion on that. I don't know 1ega11y if the President has the right to do that. Agai n, I 'm not a lawyer. I thi nk that's rea11y you know, the electorate, as between the President and hjs to whether the voters think that that's proper or not. I l3 don't I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 11 l4 l5 l6 t7 l8 l9 20 21 22 23 24 25 $50,000 a month, and Zlochevsky who runs know. earlier on, you were testi f y'ing to a question worded differently, where you were saying that it would be inappropriate to ask the Ukrajnjan Government to conduct an investigatjon into a 2020 poli ticat riva1, correct? Did you say something to that effect earlier? AI4BASSAD0R S0NDLAND: I believe I did, yes. t'lR. ZELDIN: But you' re not wi 11i ng to explai n that any of what the President further beyond that, given all of when making that request. may believe when making that Does i t matter what the facts are to you? AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: Yeah, the facts are critical, and I don't know all the underlying facts. And I'm rea1ly not in MR. ZELDIN: But 328 I 2 a J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 of s hypothet'ica1 as to whether jt was proper or improper. I do think it was improper on the future election. the bus j ness provi di ng an opi ni on on thi feel pressured earlier in today's deposition to answer that it was improper to ask, based on the fact that you don't have all the facts? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I dON't thiNK I fclt UNdUIY pressured at thi s deposj ti on at all MR. ZELDIN: You didn't feel unduly pressured to answer that question without your facts, but you feel like you shouldn't answer my question because you don't have your f acts? I t' s the same exact 'issue. MR. ZELDIN: Did you . l3 AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Te11 me aga'in your question. l5 of the Un'i ted States, i f the President of the United States believes that Hunter l6 Bi t7 $50,000 a month from l8 o1 i t9 Burisma and Zlochevsky; 20 believes that Vice President Joe Biden threatened Ukraine t4 MR. den, Vi ZELDIN: So the Presi dent ce Presi dent Joe Bi den's son, i s getti ng pai d this foreign company run by a foreign garch, that there i s a corrupti on i nvesti gati on i nto if the President of the United States 24 with the loss of $1 bi1lion, 'if they didn't immediately f ire the state prosecutor who was the state prosecutor who had an investigation into Burisma and Zlochevsky; if the President believes all of these djfferent things, if the Pres'ident 25 believes that Burisma, Zlochevsky, Hunter Biden and Joe Biden 2t 22 23 329 I shouldn't be immune from scruti ny j ust because Joe Biden i s t4 for President; if the President was to beljeve that if it's not i11ega1 then it should be; if the President beljeves that U.S. aid to Ukraine should be spent as effectively as poss'ible; if the President has longstanding issues with corruption in Ukraine, if the Presjdent believes all of these things, would it be okay for the Presjdent to want to look into this further? AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: As I said, I'm not a lawyer. If it's legal for him to do so, then I assume it would be okay. If i t's 'i11ega1 f or him to do so, then I assume i t would be wrong. That's the best answer I can give you. It's really a question of 1aw. MR. ZELDIN: 5o we're talking about an earlier question l5 you were asked and you answered one way, and another question l6 I just 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t7 running that you're answering the opposite way. One question was worded the way that I just worded the question asked t8 just l9 answer. 20 2t 22 Z) 24 25 I asked you, and you gave what seemed to be a candid of my colleagues earlier asked you if it would be appropriate to ask Ukraine to conduct an investigation into a polit'ica1 rjvat, and you answered a different way. So I'm trying to understand two comptetely different answers to what is the same exact situatjon, a request by the President of the United States to Ukraine to Iook into a case i nvolvi ng an enti ty that was under i nvesti gat'ion f or One 330 1 2 J corruption owned by an oligarch under investigation for corruption, and the President of the United States has issue with the entire setup and he makes the request. an t4 is the same exact jssue two djfferent ways, but you're giving two totally I believe it would be different answers. And we need to hetpful if we can better understand why it's two totally different answers to what is the same exact request. MR. LUSKIN: With all respect, Congressman, we've now been here for eight and a half hours and Ambassador Sondland has not decfined to answer a single quest'ion posed by any member or any counsel member . You've asked th'i s questi on now three di fferent times. I know you're unhappy wi th hi s answer, but if we stay until 7:30 he's not going to change l5 hi 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ll t2 13 So you've been asked the question on what s answer. ZELDIN: So you might have misunderstood my answer, l6 MR. t7 Counselor, but l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 at all w'ith what Ambassador Sondland j ust sai d. I4y i ssue i s wi th hi s answer earl i er today that was a different answer to what was a different version of the same exact question, and I'm giving the Ambassador an opportunity, if he would like to, if he would like to, help us better understand why there were two different answers to those two questions. MR. LUSKIN: And I think, as he's made clear, he stands by his testimony today, by his answers to your quest'ions and I had no i ssue 331 I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 to the questions by the majority earlier. And I think it's obviously the task of this committee if you perceive there to be any differences between those answers to reconcile those d'if f erences. But more questions I don't thi nk are goi ng to assi st you any further. I thi nk you've asked it about as many times as you can, and he's given you his best shot at an answer. MR. ROY: Do you have something to add? No? Ambassador, in your statement you provided, you said: "First, I knew that a public embrace of anticorruption reforms by Ukraine was one of the preconditions for securing a Whi te House meeting wi th President Zelensky." by his answers l3 Do you stand t4 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: by that? I do. t7 that such Western ref orms are consi stent w'ith U. S. support f or rule of 1aw jn Ukra'ine, going back decades, under both Republican and l8 Democratic administrations, l5 l6 t9 20 2t MR. ROY: My view was and has always been right, you agree? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: YCS, I dO. MR. ROY: Nothing about that request raised any red flags for me, Ambassador Volker, or Ambassador Taylor. SONDLAND: Correct. 22 AMBASSADOR 23 I'lR. ROY: A f ew moments ago, though, you made 24 25 I just want to a I might have misheard, but you made a statement along the lines of you statement and make sure 332 1 thought that there should be no preconditions for a meeting, 2 and that there should have been a meeting immediately after J the i naugu rat i on? 4 AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Well , as a pol i cy matter, 6 obviously, if my goal was to get the two Presidents together as quickly as possible following the inauguration, a meeting 7 with no preconditions would have been a 1ot easier to handle. 5 l2 Right. But do you see my I mean, my quest'ion here i s j ust I mean, you can have a pol i cy debate and we had an exchange about that, right? And I get earlier about your goals and trying to, you know, get the things we want to get accomplished in Ukraine. We talked l3 about Secretary Perry. l4 My question 8 9 l0 ll MR. ROY: here, though, is just you have stated fairly l8 affirmatively nothing about that request raised any red flags for you. So, just to be c1ear, you don't see a problem with having preconditions. Just to exercise your goal of getting a meeting as soon as humanly poss'ible, that would have been 19 your preference. 20 AMBASSADOR l5 l6 t7 2t S0NDLAND: Correct. In other words, from a policy matter, there was nothing wrong with 22 MR. ROY: Ri ght. 23 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: - - clear and strai ghtforward ti ons that were lawfu1 precondi ti ons. 24 precondi 25 wjth that. Nothi ng wrong My preference would have been no preconditions. 333 I 2 MR. ROY: Right, and that's fine. But, in other to carry out your objective, which is to have a meeting. SONDLAND: CoTTect. J AMBASSADOR 4 MR. ROY: But precond'i 5 6 7 8 9 l0 words, acceptabl ti ons mi ght be perf ectly e? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Total1y. Okay. The other question I have is, if the United States Government believes, if we have reason to MR. ROY: believe, the President down through law enforcement or otherwise and our intelligence agencies, we have reason to t2 believe that any country in the world had any jnterference with our system of elections or otherwjse, would that not be l3 a bas'is f or our government to choose to t4 otherwise make decisions about how we handle aid and l5 forth, t6 Ambassador, would ll t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 wi thhold f unds, or to so any country, hypothetically speaking, speaking as that not be a reason for a country to of think about how they handle aid? AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: I think it our part, yes. an kind would create concern MR. ROY: Okay. I'm going to go back to one thing just to make sure that we're c1ear. We talked about the letter earlier today, the letter that surprised you I think was your words. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but the letter from the President that said, we can MR. MEADOWS: Ambassador, on 334 7 this meeting, and you vvere surprised by it, based on the initial meeting in the 0va1 0ffice. Is that correct? At'4BASSADOR S0NDLAND: That is correct. MR. MEADOWS: And so once you had this letter that was unconditioned in terms of meeting with President Zelensky, would you characterize that as a letter that had no conditions to it, in terms of a meeting with Presjdent 8 Zelensky? I 2 5 4 5 6 have AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 9 0ther than scheduli ng. t2 0ther than scheduling. Did you ever hear from Secretary Pompeo that the President real1y didn't mean that letter and that you shouldn't take the letter at face 13 value, that the only problem was a scheduling l0 ll MR. MEADOWS: SONDLAND: t4 AMBASSADOR l5 MR. MEADOWS: problem? NO. Did you ever hear from President 16 that he really didn't t7 it was the only precondition mean what he said Trump in the letter, that was a scheduling problem? S0NDLAND: No. l8 AI'4BASSAD0R l9 t"lR. MEADOWS: Did you hear from anyone in authority that 2l the President rea1ly didn't mean what he said jn that letter and that he was that there was any problem other than 22 scheduling and that you shouldn't beljeve what 23 sai 20 24 25 that letter d? AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: of my recollection. I did not hear that, to the best 335 I appreciate you clarifying that and helping me understand that better, and I will yield back to my colleagues. MR. CASTOR: We yield back. THE CHAIRMAN: I would suggest, rather than breaking, becaLrse we're nearing the end that we just motor on through. Is that okay, Ambassador? MR. MEAD0WS: A11 2 J 4 5 6 7 right. And 8 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: How much 9 THE CHAIRMAN: longer? I'm going to go to our members and then l0 our staff has a few cleanup questions, and then we're done if ll they' re done. So, hopefully, very soon. Good. Let's motor through, t2 MR. LUSKIN: l3 THE CHAIRMAN: t4 MR. CASTOR: We might have l5 THE CHAI RMAN: l6 MR. I'IALINOWSKi t7 l8 l9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 Mr. : Su re 14ali nowski Chairman. . a followup question or two. . Thank you, Mr. Cha j rman, and thank you, for your patience and ditigence in answering these questions. And let me just say I personally very much apprecjate what you were trying to accomplish throughout this difficult period in getting the two Presidents together to get our relati onshi p wi th Ukrai ne back on track, somethi ng we are all committed to in a bipartisan way. AI'4BA55AD0R S0NDLAND: Thank you , Congressman. my fjrst question MR. MALIN0WSKI: I wanted to relates to your phone call to the President on, I befieve, Ambassador, 336 September 9th, when you asked him, you said, what do you want 2 from the Ukrainians, and you said that the President said J that he wanted nothing. 4 pro He repeated that there was no quid quo. But then you told us at a later point that the President 5 l0 I want Zelensky I just want Zelensky to do what he ran on. 1s that essentiatly correct? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: In so many words, yes. MR. MALiN0WSKI: 0kay. 5o even in that conversation in which he sajd there was no that he wanted nothing, no quid ll pro quo, he d'id actually want something. He wanted Zelensky 6 7 8 9 then added, t2 to do somethi ng cons'istent w'ith what he ran on. That's l3 co r rec t? t4 l5 AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: understand he meant by 18 on"? 2t 22 23 24 25 that a quid did you what did you MR. MALINOWSKI: We1l, how t7 20 you consider pro quo, then t6 t9 If "I want Zelensky to do what he ran Again, I didn't have the time or opportuni ty to question h jm. He as I stated 'in my openi ng AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: in a very bad mood and it was a very short cal1. I don't want to characterize him as hanging up on ffie, but it was close to that. MR. MALiNOWSKI: But then in the text message that you sent reporti ng on that conversati on, you sa'id: "The statement, he was 337 2 is trying to evaluate whether Ukraine is truly going to adopt the transparency and reforms that President J Zelensky promi sed. President 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 " I th'ink i t suggests that you thought he was referring, again, to the corruption issue. based, agai n, AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: I thought i t was on the short cal1, it was my interpretation of what the President was trying to te11 me. I didn't have the opportunity to ask followup questions. He didn't want to So ta1k. ll MR. I'IALINOWSKI: 5o your assumption was that th'is was t4 thing that had been commun'icated again and again. And, of course, corruption by September 9th, you know, you realize that that entails those two specific asks l5 related to 2015 and t2 l3 basicatly the same Burisma? Al{BASSADOR SONDLAND: Wel 16 l, no . I had real i zed that i t l8 entailed those two specific asks, based on anecdotal evidence from a lot of other people. I had never heard it from the l9 Presi t7 22 23 24 25 ca11ed the Presi dent. MR. MALINOWSKI: We11, you 20 2t dent. That's why I did hear from the President his interest in 2015, though, you said. AMBASSADoR SoNDLAND: I heard on the 23rd that he wanted that Ukraine was trying to take him down. That was what I heard MR. MAL]NOWSKI : Got i t. at one point 338 5 -- on the 23rd. MR. l\4ALIN0WSKI: Second issue: You told us that you were trying to figure out why the aid was cut off when you learned that that was, jn fact, true, and that nobody involved in the Ukraine file seemed to know why the aid was 6 cut off. I 2 3 4 7 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: They reasons. 9 our current policy. l0 seemed to have different could give me a clear answer saying, 8 No one all MR. MALIN0WSKI: Isn't that a bi t odd that this is nobody 1l jnvolved in making and implementing policy towards this t2 i mportant l3 count ry? t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 country knew why a'id had been cut of f to that t' s extremely odd. MR. MALINOWSKI: One of the theories, one of the potential reasons that waS stated was that the EuropeanS not doing enough to help Ukraine, correct? AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: I AMBASSADOR were SONDLAND: ThAt WAS ONC TCASON. 22 to the EU. After the aid was cut, did anyone ever ask you, in your formal role as our representatjve to the EU, to go to the Europeans and to ask them to do more to help Ukraine as a way of getting 23 that aid t9 20 2t MR. MALINOWSKI: You're our Ambassador unfrozen? did not. Are you aware that any other 24 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: TheY 25 MR. MALINOWSKI: State 339 I Department 2 Eu official was asked to deliver this message to the ropeans? J AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: 4 1'4R 5 The th'i rd i ssue, j t's . MAL I NOWSKI : I'm not Thank you aware. . t2 been we've gone back and f orth on the general practi ce of condi ti oni ng U. 5. ass'istance around the wor1d, and certai n1y, I th'ink we would all acknowledge it's very commonly done. We condition all kinds of thi ngs on what we want f rom other countries. t',ly colleagues may know I used to be the Assistant Secretary for DRL, for the Democracy Human Rights Bureau, and I would have been on your case to condition aid in many cases on human 13 ri ghts and corruption 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t4 AMBASSADOR i ssues SONDLAND: You wouldn't have needed to. l8 you. But, in that context, are you aware that the State Department, through alt this time, has had a comprehensive set of asks to the Ukrainian Government with regard to what it should do to improve its 19 record on corruption? 20 AMBASSADOR l5 l6 t7 2l 22 23 24 25 MR. I4ALINOWSKI: We11, thank a format 1 i st, SONDLAND: Anecdotally, yes. I 've never though. MR. MALINOWSKI: So you with what seen haven't familiarized yourself we have been asking At'lBASSADOR S0NDLAND: the Ukrainians to do? No. That i s exactly i n the bilateral Ambassador's center lane. 340 MR. MALIN0WSKI: Got AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: 2 5 it. They would not be happy 'interfered in that. if I 7 conversations so would it be would it sound right to you to hear that we were asking them to strengthen the prosecutor's office, to clean up corruption in the defense sector, you know, defense 8 procurement, there was corruption there, that we wanted 9 to do more prosecutions of oligarchs and, you know, 4 5 6 l0 MR. MALINOWSKi: But hi gh-1eve1 corrupt j ndi vj you've heard them duals, such thi ngs as that? l6 of that would su rpr i se me. MR. MALINOWSKI: And were any of those things in, in your experience, ever linked to the aid or the desire of the Ukrainians to have a meeting with the President? AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 0n1y in the sense of the rubric of general corruption, when we were at that part of the t7 cont i nuum. 11 t2 l3 t4 l5 Al'4BASSADOR MR. MALIN0WSKI: l8 t9 SONDLAND: None presented But those things weren't specifically to the Ukrainians as needing to be addressed? SONDLAND: Not by 20 AMBASSADOR 2t t"lR. MALINOWSKI: By anybody, 22 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: 23 24 25 me. to your knowledge? Not to my knowledge, but I don't know. MR. MALIN0WSKI: And presumabty, if we wanted a country to do something on corruption to get a benefit from us, we 341 1 would want to te11 them what to do specifically, right? SONDLAND: Presumably. 2 AMBASSADOR J MR. MALIN0WSKI: Presumably, again, it just okay. So ultimately, 7 to Burisma and 2016. And with regard to that, it at1 came to a head, you testified, with the negot'iat'ion, attempted negotiation of a press statement in which they were asked, you know, through Rudy Giuljani, to 8 refe rence those spec i f i c th i ngs . 4 5 6 came down With regard to the reference to 2016 that was desired 9 l0 from the Ukrainians, was that ever ll Ukraine 12 l3 was AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: been, but I don't reca11 MR. MALINOWSKI: So t6 terms of that ever framed'in terms of Ukraine cooperating with an ongoing Department jnvestigation? t4 l5 specifically, framed in of Justice I don't recall that. It that may have wording. the draft press statement -- and I 20 draft -- as I reca1l it, it had the Ukra'i ni ans say that they would i nvesti gate these i ssues. It didn't refer to cooperating with the Attorney General or working through an MLAT to help DOJ conduct its own 21 i nvesti l7 l8 t9 think we heard a gat'ion i nto those 'i ssues. AMBASSADOR 22 S0NDLAND: Yeah. A11 of the anecdotal informatjon through Ambassador Volker from presumably ul i ani had to do wi th the Ukrai ni ans conduct'ing thei r 24 Mr. 25 own i nvesti gati ons. Gi 342 Understood. Wetl, thank you. I MR. MALINOWSKI: 2 And J AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 4 THE CHAI RMAN: Representati 5 MS. 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 I yield HILL: back. Thank you. the Speaker's delegati on. Thank You. ve Good H11 1 . to see you. I met you at Right. Nice to see you again. 1'4S. HILL: Thank you f or thi s. Thi s i s a lot of patience and I know this is a marathon. I want to So my questions are rea11y just kind of center on what the when you're talking about your you clari fi ed four phases. The conti nuum, you sort of third is when you know that we're discussing Burisma and the 2015 supposed i nterventi on, ri ght, or i nterference i n the election, right? Is that what you would consider kind of three of four phases? AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: That' s ri ght. l'lS . HILL: 0kay. 5o duri ng August, really around August 9th on is when it seems to escalate, based on the text messages that I've seen. And on August 9th, I just, again, wanted to clarify a few things. It looks like you had the initial conversation with where Kurt Volker wanted to he had a chat wi th Yermak and he wanted to get on the phone to talk about what we needed to advise him on with Giuliani, AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: right? 343 I 2 J 4 5 6 don't remember a lot of the details of the call wi th Gi uf iani , but then later i n the day, you sa'id specifically that to avoid misunderstandings, it might be helpful to ask Andrey for a draft statement. So it seems like and then when you were talking about that earlier, you said that you were concerned that whatever So you said you 18 for what apparently earf ier jn the day, I would assume, Giuliani had said. Does that sound right? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I think what I said was that this was the point where we went from a draft statement that was just going to be a press statement, a written statement, to some type of televisjon'interview or television broadcast. And I was asking that whatever he was proposing to say woutd be put down on paper ahead of time so that we wouldn't put Zelensky in a position of where he does this on televi si on and i t's not good enough. MS. HILL: Got it, okay. So then on the next day, you t9 were forwarded something from VoIker 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 Ukraine produced wouldn't be good enough that was conversation 23 Hi, Kurt, please let me know when you can ta1k. I think it's possible to make this declarat'ion and mention all of these things which we discussed yesterday, but it would be logic to do after we receive confirmatjon of 24 date. 20 2t 22 25 from Yermak saying: So it sounds like they are getting Ukraine might be 344 4 getting frustrated and wanting to nail down a date before they put anything out pub1ic1y. Does that sound right? AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: That sounds right. given kind of what I saw when MS. HILL: And what is 5 we went on I 2 J 6 7 8 9 10 ll t2 l3 14 the trip, the importance of Ukraine and Russia and our relationship with the EU, did that escalate the sense of urgency for you to kind of get this meeting on the books, to if Ukraine is getting more real1y move things forward with frustrated, does that did that raise any flags for you? Did that make you want to move? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Yeah. I mean, we were jerking Ukrai ne around, and I di dn't 1 i ke i t. MS. HILL: 0kay. What do you mean by that? AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: I mean we were we were l5 continually putting l6 have occurred, because they had already issued t7 uncondi new ti onal i nvi tati cond'itions on a meeting which should an on. 22 at that poi nt, i t looks like on the same date, Yermak says that he specifically states that they will announce the upcoming visit once there's a date locked in for the meeting and outlining the vjs'ion for the reboot of the U.S.-Ukraine relationship, 23 including, 24 meddl i 18 t9 20 2t 25 MS . HI LL: Got i t, okay. among And other things, Burisma and the electjon ng i nvesti gati ons. 345 MS. I HILL: So at that stage, on August lOth, you knew 2 about Burisma and the meddling, the supposed meddling, that J that 4 5 6 7 that the White House wanted, right? SONDLAND: Presumably, that's when we got to was the condition AMBASSADOR that phase of the contjnuum. M5. HILL: Through Gi uli ani , ri ght? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Correct. t4 HILL: That was how it was jndicated? 0kay. it looks like So if you continue on, then it gets to there's a sh'ift in who is kind of leading things, in my opinion, on the text messages. And I'm not sure jf this is ri ght, but, gi ven escalati on, I would assume i t mi ght be, where suddenly it looks like Kurt Volker sends something to you, the statement -- this is on the text messages from l5 August 13th. 8 9 l0 ll 12 l3 MS. t6 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: Can t7 M5. l8 HILL: I'm not looking at 20 l"lS. 2l AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 0h 24 25 with the same S0NDLAND: August 13th? AMBASSADOR 23 something page? page numbers as you, so maybe t9 22 you give me a HILL: August 13th at L0:25 in the morning. . text chain? MS. HILL: Ambassador -- let's see. Yeah, it was Volker and Sondland. Yeah. So it looks Iike it was just you and Sondtand I mean you and Volker. MR. LUSKIN: Which 346 Okay. Wel1, either way, he sends the statement to I 2 that to me seems on. Give us L second. AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 0ne second. 0kay. 0kay, what MR. LUSKIN: Hold J 4 5 date, agai n? HILL: 6 1"1S. 7 AMBASSADOR 8 MS. August 13th. SONDLAND: At what time? HILL: At L0:26 a.m. l0 t a mi nute. Thi s i s all this is Yermak and me on page 23. It's the wrong page. ll Yermak and Volker and me. 9 t2 l3 AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: Wai HILL: What I'm looking at is a longer Kurt Volker that says "special attention" MS. AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: t4 l5 you Yeah, okay, I 've got message from that. That' the last text. Got i t. HILL: 0kay. And so i t's a long statement, r'ight? l6 MS. t7 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: Yep. 24 HILL: And so it looks to me like he might be sending that to you for approval. Does that sound right? Because you say afterwards: "Perfect, 1et's send to Andrey after our ca11. " THE CHAIRMAN: Can I just interrupt, Representatjve H'i1I? And I don't know if you were here at the time, but we went through all these text messages. If you sti1l need 25 f l8 t9 20 2t 22 23 MS. urther clari f icat'ion, but s 347 5 HILL: Yes. It was mainly the approval part that I wanted to clarify, because that's where jt seems to me like things are starting to shift where you're taking more of a lead role than Volker. And I just wanted to know if you had any if this was related to your concerns perhaps 6 escal at i ng 1 2 J 4 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 13 t4 l5 t6 t7 18 l9 20 2l 22 MS. AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I'm trying to find the followup I said "perfect." 0h, okay, got i t, got i t, got i t. 0kay. MS. HILL: I'm not going to gri11 you on the specifics where you say of those anyway. this was this was not a question of who was or wasn't in charge. This was sort of a collaborat'ive ef f ort. I thi nk what we were tryi ng to do here was to get something on paper that we could tentatjvely say, yeah, that sounds 1i ke somethi ng Gi uli ani would be okay with, and Yermak could say, yeah, I think Zelensky would be okay wi th j t. And then agai n, I'rTt speculat'ing once we got to some language, we would send the language off to our respect'ive principals and figure out if we had a statement we could agree on. Not unlike negotiating a lot of different AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: I mean, again, statements. 24 25 HILL: 0kay. And, sorry, because the reason I asking is that by the L7th you were having direct MS. was 348 I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 15 l6 t7 it looked more previously like Volker was talking with Yermak and it was coming to you. that might be So I was wondering if that was kind of the crisis mitigation that we were talking about when Ukraine is getting more upset, when you're having to kjnd of step in and take more of a leadership role. AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: I will take the compliment, but I don't think that that real1y was the case. I think this was j ust ci rcumstanti al. Somet'imes Yermak could reach me. Sometimes he could reach Volker. Sometimes Volker was at the l"lcCain Institute, because he wasn't working f u11 time. He had other duties. 5o I think it was catch as catch can. or the M5. HILL: 5o by the time you had the visit President canceled the trip to Poland and you went, right? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I did. You met wi th ZeIensky. And MS . HI LL : conversations with Yermak, whereas AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: The Vice President met with t9 Zelensky. I sat in on the meet'ing. MS. HiLL: Okay, got jt. What was yourimpression 20 then? This was the escalation. This was the l8 2l 22 23 24 25 by to me, this is kjnd of the critical mass moment where it's all coming to a head. How was 'it wi th Zelensky at that poi nt? AI4BASSADOR S0NDLAND: 0h, I think Zelensky, you know, in my opi n'ion; put on a good game f ace. I thi nk he was disappointed, because I thjnk he thought this t,{as going to be 349 s fi rst meeti ng wi th Presi dent Trump. I thi nk he I hj 2 understood the hurri cane was beyond Pres'ident Trump's J control. 4 would have preferred 5 States then the Vice President 6 j ust You know, he was being gracjous, to meet but I think he with the President of the United of the United 5tates. That's normal. 8 HILL: Do you feel ljke at this point they felt Ukraine felt more pressure to kind of accommodate those 9 requests? 7 MS. 14 I don't know jf they felt more pressure. I don't think this was a case of turning up the pressure. I think this was c'i rcumstantial. And then, again, we tried to figure out when the next opportunity would be for him to meet with the President, which turned out to be at the l5 UNGA. l0 ll t2 13 AI4BASSADOR S0NDLAND: t9 HILL: Okay. And then the last thing and I'11 stop 'is that you have - on September 8th, i t says these are , the final text messages that I'm referring to. It's one between you, Taylor, and Volker on September 8th at 1L:20 20 a.m. l6 t7 l8 2l 22 MS. MR. LUSKIN: And, again, we're going to have to try find it. 23 MS. HILL: I know. I'm sorry. 24 MR. NOBL E 25 t',lR. LUSKIN: : 53 Thank you. Okay, go ahead and 350 HILL: J that you have multiple conversat'ions wi th Zelensky and P0TUS at thi s poi nt, but by now you're aware that the ajd had been withheld, right? Yes, 4 that 1 2 MS. So you say happened on August 29th. I think I 8 that the aid had been wjthheld in July when Taylor sent me a text to the effect that I had just got off of a video conference and someone said something about a hold on the aid. I think 9 that's 5 6 7 AMBASSADoR S0NDLAND: l0 I became MS. HiLL: In July? ll AMBASSADoR SoNDLAND: t2 l3 t4 when Yeah, Yermak on August 29th, so I don't think the Ukrainians knew jt was being withheld back in Ju1Y. M5. HILL: 0nly i n August. l8 AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Yeah. t9 MS. 20 wi thheld? t7 HILL: 2t AMBASSADOR 22 MS. So you knew SONDLAND: HILL: 0kay. I in July that the aid was being knew what Taylor told And so by September me. 8th, you said: Z) Guys, multiple conversations with Zelensky and POTUS, 24 talk. 25 have to know why i t was be"ing wi thheld. MS. HILL: Got it, okay, because I saw the one from SONDLAND: t6 in July. But I didn't any reason AMBASSADOR l5 was aware Ri ght? AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: Which time? let's 351 4 LL: That was the 1.1. : 20 a . m. AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: Yeah. I don't recal1. I see it. I don't recal1 the I don't reca11 the conversations. I'45. HILL: You don't reca11 the conversations with 5 Zelensky I 2 J MS . HI and I don't 7 I don't reca11 the conversations. I'd need more refreshment to recall the 8 conversati ons. 6 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 l9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 At"lBASSADOR S0NDLAND: HILL: Okay. Wel1, then that same day in that same text message chain, Bi11 Taylor says: "Gordon and I just spoke. I can brief you" I'm assuming this 'is to Volker "I can brief you jf you and Gordon didn't connect." Does that refresh your memory at all? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Yeah. I mean, I obviously must have relayed to Bill Taylor what I talked about, but I don't remember what it is. N5. HiLL: Okay. So there's nothing right around this time of September 8th or 9th where you f eel 1i ke i s th'is when the red ftag is really hitting for you? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: You know, this is just before I believe that this js just before I got the text from Taylor tatking about that everything's connected. I believe that's this is one day before I got that text. l4S. HILL: Okay. And then AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: And that was the text that sa'id, i MS. 352 8 thjs isn't being, you know, withheld for political reasons, or something to that effect. l"ls . HI LL : Ri ght. AI4BASSADOR SONDLAND: And that's when I made the phone call to MS. HILL: The President. AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: -- the President, yeah. t4S. HILL: But that night, on the 8th, you don't reca11 9 what you and Taylor were I 2 J 4 5 6 7 l0 ll t2 l3 hope talking about or what you and Volker were tatking about? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I don't know if it may have led up to that text. He may have said something to warn, that I'm f eel i ng th'is, but then I got the text on the 9th, and then I 16 that he was concerned. M5. HILL: But on the 8th is when you sa'id that there were multiple conversations with Zelensky and P0TUS. What do t7 you think that t4 l5 l8 l9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 knew conclusively was? I don't know, because I don't think I would have talked to P0TUS the day before I talked hi m agai n. I don' t thi nk I talked to hi m twi ce 'in 2 days MS. HILL: So you don't know what you might have been referri ng to there? AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: No, I don' t. Okay. 0kaY, thank You MS . HI LL : AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: Thank you . Sor ry AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: . . . to 353 THE CHAIRI4AN: I 2 just J cleanup quest'ions. I prom'ise you' re almost at the end. I have a couple questions, my staff has a couple of 4 AI'IBASSADOR SONDLAND: 5 THE CHAIRI'4AN: And Great. then, unless l'4r. Swa1well has a l0 I think we're done on our side. MR. CASTOR: And I have one or two. THE CHAIRMAN: I wanted to ask you, at the press conference today with Chjef of Staff Mulvaney, he was asked: "So he, " meaning the President, "was never realistically ll entertaining a meeting with President Zelensky?" 6 7 8 9 t2 l3 t4 l5 l6 t7 l8 l9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 burning question, And Mr. Mulvaney's answer was: "I mean, I we get asked by foreign leaders all the time to either we come r country or to have them come vi si t here, and we go try to be courteous and say yes. And some of them we're able to accommodate and some of them we are not, but I do not remember -- excuse me, I'm going to answer her quest'ion that I don't remember serious conversation about vi si t the'i setting up an actual meeting. There were no dates discussed There was not I -- I saw that as one of the typical pleasantrjes that we have, and I don't think it was dangling a - - a meeti ng or anythi ng l i ke that. " I take jt, Ambassador, that was not your understanding of the situation when that letter went out? AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: Not at all. 354 THE CHAIRMAN: I BY 2 a J t',IR . Mr. Noble. NOBL E : Ambassador, going back in meetings 5 and President Zelensky. A a 6 7 8 September 1st, the the bilat between Vice President 4 Warsaw, to Pence Yes. So this was after the July 25th call between President Trump and President Zelensky, correct? A a A a What was the Warsaw date? l5 A I thi nk that's ri ght. t6 a A few days 17 A Yeah. l8 a Do you reca11 any 9 l0 ll t2 September Lst. Yes. And i t's also af ter the Pol i t'ico arti c1e made l3 public that the U.S. had frozen the aid to Ukraine on August t4 28th. t9 20 2t 22 23 24 25 later after that, ri ght? conversation between Vi ce President Pence and President Zelensky about the f rozen ai d or the Whi te House vi si t? A I sat in, as I said, I sat in on a bilat with about 20 people, at least, on each side, so maybe 30 or 40 people total. And I'm sure there were contemporaneous notes taken of the meeting. And as I also testified, I don't believe there was a private pu11-aside. I think jt was one of these 355 I large bilats. 22 I don't I don't remember if Pres'ident Zelensky dld one of his quips tike, "When am I going to get my date?" which he did when he and the President had their bilat in New York. He may have done that. He's been he was a little snarky about it, because it had been withheld for so 1ong. And this is new news to me about Chief of Staff Mulvaney. As far as the aid is concerned, I don't remember him bringing it Up, at least in the big bi1at. Now, again, I don't know if he and Vice Presjdent Pence had a private conversati on afterwards, but I don't recal1 a 5o you don't reca11 Vice Pres'ident Pence saying something to the effect that the U.S. was not going to tift the freeze at that tjme to President Zelensky? A I don't again, he may have done I don't remember i t. I honestly don't. a Do you know whether Vice President Pence had been briefed or had read the transcript of the JuIy 25th call at that poi nt? A I don't know. I never asked him. a And then the next day, September 2nd, I believe you sajd Secretary Pompeo traveled to Brussels and you had 23 meetings with Secretary 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 14 l5 l6 l7 l8 t9 20 2t 24 25 And . A a Pompeo Correct. 5o that's the day after you had that text message 356 with Taylor where he said or asked: "Are I exchange 2 we now saying 3 meeting are conditioned on investigations?" that security assistance and White House Did you discuss Ambassador Taylor's concerns with 4 5 Ambassador Secretary Pompeo about the linkage? 7 No. And the reason I didn't was we were so consumed wi th the meeti ngs, whi ch were very fragi 1e, getti 8 those meetings scheduled, and then potentially losing 6 A ng them t2 after President Trump decided not to travel to Warsaw, because we were all going to travel together, that I was totally f ocused on the EU meeti ngs. And I di dn't d'iscuss anything with Secretary Pompeo that I can reca11 other than l3 the 9 l0 ll t4 l5 four leaders. a Did you ever discuss wjth Secretary Pompeo the 1i nkage between securi ty assi stance, Whi te House meeti ng, EU meetings with the l8 the i nvesti gati ons? A I think the only thing I did was encourage Ambassador Taylor to deal with it and to call Secretary t9 Pompeo. 20 a 2t Pompeo? l6 t7 22 ./.) 24 25 You never had any direct d'iscussions wlth and Secretary I do reca1l I was highly focused on the four leaders when we were there. It was a very tight schedule. a Did you ever discuss Rudy Giuliani with Secretary A I don't reca11 any. i mean, 357 I Pompeo? in general 2 A 0n1y J a a And what 4 A That he's i nvolved 'in af f ai rs. And 5 hi s eyes and sai a 6 7 said you terms. did you discuss? d: Yes, i t's Pompeo somethi ng we have rol1ed to deal wj th. s counsetor, Ul ri ch Brechbuhl? had lots of conversations with Mr. Brechbuhl? What about hi , You 8 A 0n and off 9 a Did you discuss the linkage between the security yes. l0 assi stance, the White House meeting, and ll wi l3 l5 hi m? A a t2 t4 th wi I dl d, but I don' t recalt. What about Rudy Giuliani, did you discuss G'iuliani I don't bet i eve th Brechbuhl? A I may have. Again, people usually smiled 16 heard Rudy's name because he was always t7 somewhe re l8 the i nvesti gati ons a swirling when they around . Yeah, but, I mean, he was causing serious issues in t9 the U.S. relationship with Ukraine. Did you rajse those 20 concerns wi th 2t A Listen, the State Department was fu1ly aware of the they could do about it if 22 issues, and there was very little 23 the President decided he wanted his lawyer involved. 24 25 a And does that include Secretary Pompeo and his counselor, Ulrich Brechbuhl? 358 4 is yes, that they hit a brick wall came to getti ng ri d of Mr. Gi u1 i ani I just want to ask you about whether you know of anything about a September 17th phone call between Secretary 5 Pompeo 1 2 J A when i t O 7 8 9 13 t4 l5 l6 and the Ukrai ni an Forei gn 14i ni ster? Would that be with Mr. Prystaiko? I eve be1 i so. You can pronounce i t, I can' t . What was the question? Are you f ami1i ar wi th the September 17lh call between the Secretary and the Foreign Minister? A ll t2 speculation . A a A a 6 l0 My saw I'm aware they had a cal1. I don't believe I ever a readout. a A a 5o you don't know what the content I don't. What about a September L8th call between Vice President Pence and President Zelensky? 2l n, thi s was the disorganization. We weren't kept in the loop that the call was going to occur. We weren't asked to listen in. So a lot of this was catchup. a 0kay. You've had some testimony today about the 22 United Nations General Assembly and the meeting t7 18 l9 20 A Agai n, don't recal1. Agai between President Trump and President Zelensky. Could you j ust 24 25 for us ki nd of thei r i nteracti ons duri ng UNGA? A Yeah. i mean, it was a typical bilat where you had descri be 359 I a press scrum prior to the format meeting and a tot of 2 questions shouted. And, you know, we J Trump 4 perfect meeting, you heard all of that. Then the press 5 ushered out. 6 sa'id. It was wi dely reported. all know what President No pressure, j And Presjdent Trump and President Zelensky had t was was sort of 7 colloquy back and forth, and President Zelensky jokingly 8 said: When am I going to get my date for the White House? 9 I 'm sti 11 had my i nvi I a tati on, where's the date? And t2 of deferred the you know, punted on the questi on, di dn't answer i t. a Is that are you referring to the press l3 conf erence t4 conversation that also occurred l0 ll a President Trump sort they held together on telev'isi on, or was thi s the l8 in private? A I think it occurred in private as we11, yeah. Private, I mean, there were 30 people in the room, probably. a Was there any di scussi on duri ng the pri vate sessj on about the July 25th call or President Trump's jnterest in t9 Ukrai ne pursui ng 20 that call? 15 l6 t7 2l 22 A a I don' t the i nvesti gati ons that he di scussed duri ng recal 1 that What about . -- did they have were there any 23 discussions about the investigations with any other offic'ia1s 24 on the side that President Trump had? 25 A I wasn't with President Trump for any other 360 I di scussi nto the bi 1at and then I 1eft. Just for the with President Zelensky? ons. I came i 7 a A Yes. a What about you, did you have any discussions with other officials regarding the Juty 25th call? A I don't reca11, no. I don't recall having. a i just have some final questions about, of a1t 8 thi ngs, recordkeepi 2 J 4 5 6 ng. ll personal or you had a dual ce11 phone f or personal and busi ness. Are you f ami 1i ar w'ith the Federal Records Act and i ts requi rements for 12 recordkeepi 9 l0 So you say you used your A a l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 t9 20 2l 22 Z) 24 25 I ng? am. So, obviously, you used WhatsApp to communicate th other U. S. offi ci a1s. Di d you also use WhatsApp to communi cate wi th forei gn offi ci a1s? A Yeah, it's very customary jn Europe. Everyone uses WhatsApp. That's one of the only mediums that foreign leaders use in Europe. a Did you also use did you ever use personal email to communicate with foreign leaders or U.S. Government officials? A I tried to avoid it, but when I did I also tried to copy my State email, because the State emaif is rea11y hard to send attachments or forward. I t's j ust j t's real1y a wi 361 I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 cumbersome system. a ll 12 l3 t4 l5 l6 did you not always follow that requirement to copy your State email? A I didn't, I tried to remedy the situation by moving it over. But as far as my counsel is concerned, I thi nk I 'm now i n complete compl i ance wi th that act. Is that correct? MR. LUSKIN: That is correct. When BY MR. NOBLE: 9 l0 So a A a communi A a Did you do it within 20 days -- I don't recall. of when you j n'iti aIly sent the message or cati on? I don't reca11. did you do to comply with the recordkeeping requirements as it pertains to your WhatsApp messages? What t7 MR. LUSKIN: They've l8 Department electroni ca11y. t9 MR. NOBLE: Did 20 communi cati aIt been forwarded that occur withjn 20 days of the on? th all due respect -- 2t I'lR. MEAD0WS: Counsel, 22 MR. SWALWELL: He's asking 23 to the State Mark, he gets w'i the quest'ion. No, ro, no. to ask the questions. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen. 25 I"lR. MEADOWS: If we're going to get into the 20 days, 362 I 2 me Benghaz'i over ema i 1s 1'4R. MEAD0WS: 5 6 let THE CHAIRMAN: J 4 just tell for the goose is good for the gander. Okay? And I promise you if you want -- Adam, you what's good Wel1, the gander endured 2-L/2 years of , so I'm looking for 30,000 emails, Adam, 30,000 emails. I think it is appropriate to MR. MEADOWS: You want to talk about 20 days? Come on. THE CHAIRMAN: I think it is appropriate to ask THE CHAIRMAN: 7 8 9 l0 excuse ll It is t hours and now we're getting into this kjnd of crap, and that's what it js. THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me. I thi nk i t i s appropri ate to ask whether the Ambassador provided his text messages -- t2 l3 t4 me MR. MEAD0WS: l5 MR. MEAD0WS: And he l6 THE CHAIRMAN: said yes. Let me finish. Contemporaneously t7 they were produced or only recently when thi s matter 18 under investigation. l9 So would you please respond, Ambassador? 20 MR. MEADOWS: 2l 22 23 24 25 it. Ljsten, it's under If you want to go back and forth THE CHAIRMAN: my when became committee. I Wel1, then you should want know to hear the answer. I want to hear it. He said they were preserved, and now we're going to try to talk about 20 days. MR. MEAD0WS: 363 THE CHAIRMAN: 2 compl i ance Sond 7 8 9 l0 1a a personal server, Ambassador nd? THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse 5 6 now. The questi on i s MR. MEADOWS: Did you have J 4 No. His counsel said that they were in me. Excuse me. Excuse me, Mr. Meadows. did you contemporaneously provide your WhatsApp messages to the State Department, per the requi rements of the Federal Records Act, or was that done only recently upon the ini tiation of the investigation? Ambassador, ll ANBASSADOR S0NDLAND: I was told that because of my dual SIM that everything on the State t2 phone having a t3 server because one of the SIMs is my State SIl\4, my State t4 email. That was not correct. wound up l6 of those texts or those WhatsApps wound up on the State server. They wound up just staying on the phone. 5o I did recently comply and put t7 them on the State server. l5 recently? 18 THE CHAIRMAN: And how l9 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. BY MR. 2t a 22 One In the last week or 2, I think. NOBLE: other quest'ion on the text messages . Di d you after that exchange wj th Taylor on September 9th, or your WhatsApp messages 23 delete any of your text 24 Ambassador 25 or emai 1s? And none messages 364 I 2 A a D'id I delete any Did you delete any of your WhatsApp messages, text or emajls after September J messages, 4 exchange w'ith Ambassador Taylor? 9th when you had that ll I don't reca11. I occasionally delete texts that are personal texts. I don't reca11. a Anythi ng pertai ni ng to Ukrai ne? A I'd have to go back and look. I don't recall. a Do you know whether those were preserved? A Everything that's there was preserved. a But some may have been deleted before you turned t2 over your 5 6 7 8 9 l0 A I may have, but messages? t6 A Again, I don't want to swear to it, because I get a 1ot of texts. So I mean, so at a I mean, do you have any specific that poi nt, ri ght, you' re sendi ng thi s emai 1 that Presi dent t7 Trump i s claimi ng l3 14 l5 there 'is no quid pro quo You're like 20 let's stop talking about this over tex t message. At that point, did you delete any of your messages? A No, at that point I did not delete anything on that 2t stream. 18 19 22 23 24 25 a A other stream relating to Ukraine? Again, I don't recall. I will get back to you if We11, any you'd 1i ke me to look i nto 'i t. THE CHAI RMAN: Mr . Swalwel 1 . 365 1 2 J 4 5 6 7 t'4R. SWALWELL: Thank Do you have you, Chairman. a daily read book as an Ambassador? I'm sorry? MR. SWALWELL: Do you have a daily read book? Like, mentjoned cables that come across your desk. AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: I get them electronjcally, and sometimes I get a read book, depending on where I am. AI'4BASSADOR S0NDLAND: 8 MR. SWALWELL: Do you 9 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: get press clippings every l0 I get a summary. MR. SWALWELL: Who compiles that for you? ll AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: t2 I'lR. SWALWELL: Who was compiling t3 spring of The you day? staff. that for you in the 20L9? l8 I don't recatl. MR. SWALWELL: 0kay. And that would did those press clippings, do they relate to Ukraine as welt? AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: I don't read a lot of the press clippings. I have way too much to do to sit and read. I l9 could read press clippings aI1 day t4 15 l6 t7 20 2t 22 23 24 25 AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: MR. SWALWELL: provided for 1ong. 0kay. But they are rout'inely customarily you? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: They are provided for everyone. for the entire mission. l'4R. SWALWELL: But on a da'i1y basis, you will receive There is a press clipping press cl i ppi ngs? summary 366 I 2 J AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: MR. SWALWELL: 0kay. But I'm asking, your email daily basis you receive press clippings as it address, on a 5 relates to your dutjes? SONDLAND: 6 AMBASSADOR 7 l'4R. SWALWELL: 0kay. 8 I yield 9 THE CHAIRMAN: ll done electronically for the mission. 4 l0 No. No, i t's all I do, along with everyone eIse. back. 0ver to the minority if they have any add'iti onal quest j ons. MR. J0RDAN: Ambassador, Presi dent Zelensky wi ns hi s t6 election, I think, April 21st,2019, overwhelmingly, and then shortly thereafter gets a call from President Trump, a congratulatory ca11. Is that ri ght? AMBASSADOR S0NDLAND: I understand that happened, yes. I'm looking at MR. JORDAN: And then sort of the next t7 your timeline l8 approximately a month t2 t3 t4 l5 t9 the next event is the inauguratjon later, May 20th, 2019. Djd you start working on I mean, based on the 8, 20 hours you've been here, you've talked about your focus 2t getting a second call and an officiat meeting between the 22 Presi dents. 23 24 25 AI'IBASSADOR 9 was SONDLAND: My pref erence would have been j ust to go right to a meeting, but when I found out that the meeting was going to be problematic as it kept getting 367 1 2 J for a call at a minjmum. t'lR. JORDAN: Yeah. And I think you descrjbed it as you wanted to arrange a working phone ca11. delayed, I pushed SONDLAND: 4 At"IBASSADOR 5 1"1R. 6 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 7 Correct. JORDAN: 0kay. The congratutatory probably a very short, "great call was job, talk to you soon." 1l all got them. So did you start working on that pretty soon in this whole conti nuum, as you've descri bed i t? Did you start 1i ke late Apri1, early May, start, like, you know, we need to get t2 these guys together? 8 9 l0 MR. J0RDAN: We've l5 I think the delegation when we came back from the inauguration are you tatking about after the inauguratjon or between the election and the 16 i naugu rat i on? l3 t4 t7 l8 t9 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: MR. J0RDAN: I'm talking whenever you decided i t was time to get a working to arrange a working phone call. AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I th'ink I don't know how much 20 actjvity 2t i naugurati on, because the i naugurati on was fai r1y soon after 22 the electi on. we rea11y had between the election and the 24 Okay. So is it fajr to say you started thinking about putting together the second phone call between 25 President Trump and President Zelensky when you had the 23 MR. JORDAN: 368 I delegatjon there 2 Zelensky' earnest SONDLAND: 6 with the folks 7 the i naugurati we rea1ly started that jn there any discussion on May 20th, who were part of the delegation in Ukraine at SONDLAND: About AMBASSADOR 9 MR. JORDAN: Yes. ANBASSADOR S0NDLAND: lot of dinners ll had a t2 but I don't 2019, on? 8 l0 I think after the briefing with President Trump on the 23rd. MR. JORDAN: Was 5 President inauguration? AI'4BASSADOR J 4 s in Ukraine on May 20th, 2019, for remember a meeting or a phone call? There may have and lunches, and been. I it probably mean, we came Up, specifically. 0kay. And, again, and the folks at the l3 MR. JORDAN: t4 i nauguratj on were 15 Johnson, Ambassador Volker, Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, those l6 were the ind'ividuals l7 AMBASSADOR l8 1"1R. t9 AMBASSADOR 20 MR. J0RDAN: Mr. Perry, Secretary Perry, Senator that were part of the delegation? SONDLAND: And myself. JORDAN: And yourself . SONDLAND: CoTTect. Okay. And so you think you started talking 22 to get these guys together on a working phone call and at some kind of meeting, you think that started May 23 20th? 2l about we need S0NDLAND: 24 AMBASSADOR 25 t,lR. JORDAN: 0kay. 1t could have. Then the next meeting is at the 369 1 White House a few days 1ater, where you're debriefing and 2 you're talking about the situation, what happened a few days J earli er at the i nauguration, correct? AMBASSADOR 4 5 6 7 l0 Correct. started to talk then to President Trump and amongst yourselves again about the idea to get thjs phone ca11, get this meeting? MR. JORDAN: A11 AMBASSADOR 8 9 SONDLAND: right. And you S0NDLAND: Wel1, we only had the conversation with Pres'ident Trump, which, as one I testified, didn't go very well, when he said talk to Rudy. ll MR. J0RDAN: Right. t2 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: Then we regrouped afterwards and l3 said we need to rea11y start pushing for the meeting or the t4 phone ca11, because then we found out 3 or 4 days later that l5 an j nvi tati on had been j ssued, ch was unusual l6 President Trump's attitude toward Ukrajne, that he would 17 i ssue i nv'i tati , consi deri ng on. MR. JORDAN: l8 l9 an whi Okay. So then I get to and that was -- and was everyone 'in agreement? this call to 2l starting clear back l4ay 20th at the inauguration. The President didn't want 22 it. 20 Z) 24 25 Everyone wanted phone happen MR. LUSKIN: Who do you mean by everyone, so we can be clear? MR. JORDAN: Let me say it this way. Let's just jump to 370 I the July 10th meeting. a phone caIl. 2 So you wanted 3 AMBASSADOR 4 MR. JORDAN: Moving ahead now. 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 S0NDLAND: JuIy L0th 0h, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. MR. JORDAN: You wanted a phone cal1. Ambassador VoIker wanted a phone cal1. Ambassador Taylor wanted a phone ca11. AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: cal1. And you wanted a phone call wi th no precond'itions. Is that right? Secretary Perry wanted a phone AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: CoTTect. right. But you get to th'is July L0th meeting, and you made that argument, and then at the end of that paragraph in your testimony where you described that meet i ng , you sa'i d the NSC d i d not MR. JORDAN: A11 . l5 AMBASSAD0R SONDLAND: Cor t6 MR. J0RDAN: And why? t7 Al{BASSADOR SONDLAND: l8 rect. They would never rea11y articulate it other than there's no reason to have a ca11. l9 MR. J0RDAN: 0kay. 20 AMBASSADOR 2t meeting? S0NDLAND: That was thing I could get out of them was: the only Why aren't the only we having this 24 call? There's no reason to have a cal1. MR. JORDAN: What I don't understand is the NSC was part of the inauguratjon, the delegation who was there for 25 President Zelensky's inauguration. Lieutenant Cotonel 22 ,t) 371 2 l'lr. Vindman was there, and he was a, you know, low-level NSC person. Dr. Hj 11 wasn't J there. I 4 AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: Ambassador We11, Bolton wasn't there. t'lR. J0RDAN: Did Mr. Vindman express any reservations to 5 a second phone call in the time you spent with him at the 6 inauguratjon or any subsequent meetings or discussions 7 may have had with you hjm? l8 I don't know. I didn't I didn't consider him to be a champion of the phone cal1. I thought everyone else in the delegation was a strong champion of the phone ca1l. MR. J0RDAN: Was l'lr. Vi ndman opposed to the phone call clear back in MayT Did you get any jnd'icatjon of that? AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I don't remember when he was opposed, but I think it became apparent during the meeting one of the meetings on June Juty LOth that he didn't think it was a good idea because there was no reason for it. MR. J0RDAN: And he hadn't expressed any concern in any t9 other interactions you had? 8 9 l0 lt t2 13 t4 l5 l6 t7 AI"'IBASSADOR SONDLAND: A['4BA5SADOR 2t MR. J0RDAN: 22 23 24 25 i naugurati to that, no. Not prior to that, and not at the May 20th S0NDLAND: 20 Not pri or on 'in Ukrai ne? I don't think he you know, to answer your question exactly, I don't think he expressed an opinion that we should have one or that we shouldn't have one AMBASSAD0R S0NDLAND: 372 I 2 unti 1 the July L0th meeti ng. MR. J0RDAN: And was Mr. Vjndman my understanding is he was not 'in the l'4ay 23rd meeting 5 at the White House. AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: He was not in the 0va1, correct. MR. JORDAN: He was not in that meeting? 6 AMBASSADOR 7 l'4R. JORDAN: 0kay. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Ambassador, 9 MR. JORDAN: J 4 SONDLAND: CoTTCCt. I want to thank you. If I could ask one thing, Mr. Chairman? 10 THE CHAIRMAN: YeS. ll MR. JORDAN: Just before we c1ose, I just want to t2 you some questjons. Do we know the schedule? l3 deposjtion tomorrow? t4 THE CHAIRMAN: I think we have released ask Is there a the schedule, l5 have we not? l6 s noti ng tomor row. 14R. J0RDAN: Nothi ng tomorrow, okay. And then MR. BITAR: There's a formal notice that has gone to atl commi ttee members and staff. MR. CASTOR: I'm in the SCIF. t7 l8 t9 20 2t MR. BITAR: There MR. BITAR: No, ' it was already entered earlier today. 24 I just ask, Mr. Chairman, for next week, are there any days where there are two we had heard any days where there are two deposi tj ons rumbl i ngs of thi s 25 going on the same 22 23 MR. J0RDAN: And can day? 373 THE CHAIRMAN: I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 l1 t2 l3 t4 15 t6 17 l8 l9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 we I think the short answer is at the moment think there's only one, but there are witnesses that we t'lR. NOBLE : We have not i ced two f or 2 days . 374 I [5:51 p.m.] 2 THE CHAIRMAN: So we have J MR. NOBLE: When we 4 minority know right noticed two? 0h, okay. get confirmation, we will 1et the away. I'm guess I'm asking 5 MR. JORDAN: 6 MR. ZELDIN: 0n 2 days. 2l If two people agree to come the same day, I guess I'm asking are they going to be be simultaneous? MR.. GOLDMAN: You can't be in two places at once? THE CHAIRMAN: We will have to decide if that should be the case, whether to move one of them, or whether to do them concurrently in different rooms I'lR. J0RDAN: 14r. Cha'i rman, I point out you guys have got a few more staff than we've got. So we would I thjnk be a litt1e reluctant to have two depositions happening at the simultaneously. If we could stack the - we're wi 11i ng to stay all day. THE CHAIRMAN: You know, I would just say, first of all, that let me go back to thanking the Ambassador for his willingness to answer the subpoena, and for his tong testimony today. We appreciate your coming in and you are 22 excused. 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 13 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 t9 20 MR, JORDAN: AMBASSADOR 23 24 25 you SONDLAND: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank for conducting a very pleasant hearing. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 375 I 2 J 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 ll t2 l3 t4 l5 t6 t7 l8 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 IWhereupon, at 5:53 p.m., the deposition was concluded.] PAUL HASTINGS robertluskin@paulhastings.com November 4, 2019 Adam B. Schiff Chairman Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence United States House of Representatives Washington, DC 20515 Re: Sworn Testimony of Ambassador Gordon Sondland Dear Chairman Schiff: Pursuant to Rule 8 of the 116th Congress Regulations for Use of Deposition Authority and Rule 8(e)(2)(B) of the Rules for the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, please find attached the Declaration of Ambassador Gordon Sondland, which supplements his testimony of October 17, 2019. In accordance with the House and Committee rules, this letter and the attached Declaration should be included as an appendix to his sworn testimony. Ambassador Sondland has reviewed and approved the attached Declaration and his sworn testimony. His signature on the attached Declaration shall serve, in accordance with the relevant rules, as his affirmation that he has also reviewed and approved the transcript of his testimony. Robert D. Luskin Kwame J. Manley PAUL HASTINGS LLP Paul Hastings LLP I 875 15th Street, N.W. : Washington, DC 20005 t: + 1 .202.551.1700 I www.paulhastings.com