1 CITY COUNCIL CITY OF NEW YORK ------------------------ X TRANSCRIPT OF THE MINUTES Of the COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY Jointly with COMMITTEE ON FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES ------------------------ X January 17, 2017 Start: 10:08 a.m. Recess: 1:35 p.m. HELD AT: Council Chambers - City Hall B E F O R E: Elizabeth S. Crowley Chairperson Vanessa L. Gibson Chairperson COUNCIL MEMBERS: Mathieu Eugene Fernando Cabrera Rory I. Lancman Paul A. Vallone Vincent J. Gentile James Vacca Julissa Ferreras-Copeland Jumaane D. Williams Robert E. Cornegy, Jr. Chaim M. Deutsch Rafael Espinal, Jr. World Wide Dictation 545 Saw Mill River Road – Suite 2C, Ardsley, NY 10502 Phone: 914-964-8500 * 800-442-5993 * Fax: 914-964-8470 www.WorldWideDictation.com 2 COUNCIL MEMBERS: Rory I. Lancman Ritchie J. Torres Steven Matteo A P P E A R A N C E S (CONTINUED) Joseph Ponte Department of Corrections Commissioner Darcel Clark Bronx District Attorney Jeff Thamkittikasem Department of Corrections Chief of Staff Elias Husamudeen Corrections Officers Bene olent Association Thomas Farrell Legislative Chairman Faisal Zouhbi Assistant Deputy Wardens Association Peter Kiers Director of Peter Jones Legal Aid Society Nick Malinowski Brooklyn Defender Services Scott Levy Bronx Defenders 3 A P P E A R A N C E S (CONTINUED) Sergio De La Pava New York County Defenders Rachel Foran Brooklyn Community Bail Fund Joshua Norkin Legal Aid Society 1 5 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Good morning. My 3 name s Eli abeth Cro le , and I m the Chair of the 4 d and Criminal Justice Services Committee. Fire 5 is a joint Oversight hearing with the Committee on 6 Public Safety chaired by Council Member Vanessa 7 Gibson. 8 prosecution of 9 The Fire and Criminal Justice Services Committee will At toda s hearing e This ill e amine the iolent incidents in our Cit s jails. 10 also be hearing Proposal Introductory Bill 1373A. 11 want to begin by giving some opening remarks about 12 our joint oversight hearing, and I will reserve my 13 remarks about Intro 1378A for our second panel. 14 Despite the best intentions of our Cit 15 of Corrections, violence continues to plague our city 16 jails. 17 inmate on inmate violence has increased substantially 18 each of the past four years, and inmate on staff 19 violence has increased for at least four straight 20 years before finally slowing down slightly in the 21 most recent fiscal 22 inmates or between staff and inmates, violence in our 23 city jails is not acceptable. 24 our jails, and it s certainl 25 someone to be stabbed or slashed on Rikers Island. I s Department According to the Ma or s Management Report, ear. Whether it s bet een One should be safer in not acceptable for 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 It s no more acceptable for someone to be slashed or 3 stabbed on Rikers Island than on our city streets, 4 and we should expect as robust of an investigation 5 and prosecution of violence in jails as we do for any 6 other acts of violence. 7 to learn in 2015 that former Bronx District Attorney 8 Robert Johnson had a serious backlog of cases coming 9 from Rikers Island and that there was no-- and that 6 That is why I was disturbed 10 there was a public rift between the then District 11 Attorney and the Department of Corrections about who 12 was responsible for this backlog and an overall lack 13 of meaningful prosecution of cases from Rikers 14 Island. 15 who work hard every day in one of the most difficult 16 and demanding jobs in our city could be attacked 17 while doing their job, yet their case would not be 18 prosecuted in the same way as if they were attacked 19 on their way home from work, and it is equally unfair 20 to the inmates who are more often the victims of this 21 violence, most of whom are pre-trail detainees who 22 have not been convicted of anything, that these 23 crimes and the crime 24 rights as others. 25 process as those accused while on Rikers Island It is unacceptable that correction officers ictims don t ha e the same I m also interested in the due 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 should have access to legal counsel. 3 already has a culture of violence as described by the 4 United States Department of Justice, and a lack of 5 meaningful prosecution of violence can only add to 6 this culture. 7 the progress that the new Bronx District Attorney 8 Darcel Clark has made on this issue. 9 her staff who work on jail violence issues to opening 7 Rikers Island I have bene very pleased to hear about From tripling 10 a new facility on Rikers Island, and even a 11 preliminary glance at the number of inmates arrested 12 as reported in the Ma or s Management Report 13 indicates that progress is alread 14 very interested to learn more from DA Clark about her 15 efforts thus far and what her plans are for the 16 future. 17 the Department of Corrections and what it has done to 18 ensure that the in estigation s gathering of e idence 19 and processing of arrests are occurring efficiently 20 and judiciousl , because 21 with the close cooperation of both the Department of 22 Correction and the District Attorney that violence 23 can be meaningfully prosecuted in our city jails. 24 thank the staff for helping put this hearing 25 together, and I thank all the Council Members who are being made. I m I m also interested in learning more about e e learned that it s onl I 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 here in attendance, and I will name them before I 3 recognize my Co-chair, Council Member Vanessa Gibson. 4 Here today on the Committee of Fire and Criminal 5 Justice, Council Member Rory Lancman, and then I will 6 let my Co-chair recognize the members of her 7 committee. CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 8 9 much, Chair Crowley. 8 Thank you very Good morning to each and every 10 one of you. Welcome to City Hall to our chambers. I 11 am Council Member Vanessa Gibson of the 16th District 12 in the Bronx, proud to chair the Committee on Public 13 Safety. 14 Chair, Council Member Elizabeth Crowley for joining 15 me to chair this important hearing this morning 16 that s entitled, 17 Jails. 18 members of the Public Safety Committee who are here 19 this morning. 20 se eral ears there s been an increase in 21 our Cit s jails. In 2016, there 22 incidents of fights and assault infractions reported 23 in our jails. 24 year, there were several high-profile assaults by 25 inmates on guards, and this fall an inmate was I want to thank my fellow colleague and Co- Prosecuting Violence in our Cit I d also like to thank m s colleagues and As many of you know, over the past iolence in ere 11,240 Just recently, in the summer of last 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 slashed in his face by other detainees. 3 Yorkers we all have a responsibility to keep everyone 4 safe, and that not only means preserving safety on 5 our city streets, but certainly protecting our most 6 vulnerable and often unseen residents such as those 7 that are behind bars, and we also want to protect the 8 civilian staff and all of the corrections officers 9 that do work each and every day to provide safety and 9 As New 10 security and provide public safety. 11 our inmates and officers safe is holding everyone 12 accountable and those who perpetuate the violence and 13 the c cle of 14 all of the cases that involve inmates are 15 investigated by the Department of Corrections staff. 16 Arrests of inmates have increased dramatically from 17 795 arrests in 2015 to 1,538 arrests in 2016. 18 the Department of Corrections investigates each case, 19 the ultimate responsibility to prosecute individuals 20 on Rikers Island is with our Bronx District Attorney. 21 In 2015 there were numerous reports that then the 22 District Attorney Robert Johnson was facing 23 challenges with keeping up with all of the cases 24 coming from Rikers Island. 25 increase the backlog of the cases in the borough, but iolence in our cit Part of keeping s jails. Almost While Not only did the cases 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 there were also challenges with coordinating the 3 prosecution with the Department of Corrections staff 4 as well as access to the jails to investigate cases 5 for prosecution. 6 other challenges, our new Bronx District Attorney 7 just completing her first year in office, the 8 Honorable Darcel Clark, created the Rikers Island 9 Prosecution Bureau. 10 In response to these issues and This new bureau created in 10 September of 2016 is staffed with investigators, 11 administrators and assistant District Attorneys 12 located on the island with the mission of making 13 Rikers Island a safer place by ensuring faster and 14 efficient prosecutions of crimes committed by inmates 15 and visitors to the jail. Not only will the bureau 16 arrest individuals that committed crimes on the 17 island, but they are proactively working to dismantle 18 criminal networks that are working throughout Rikers 19 Island and collaborating with the special 20 investigations and public integrity departments of 21 the District Attorne 22 has only been up and running for just a few short 23 months, I am certainly interested this morning in 24 toda 25 months of operation and how individuals who commit s office. Although this unit s hearing in learning about the first fe 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 crimes on the island are held accountable. 3 addition, 4 of Corrections staff and the steps the 5 decrease violence and crime internally so that we can 6 keep 7 our cit 8 today, and I want to thank the Commissioner and our 9 Bronx District Attorney for being here for my county 10 11 11 In e d also like to hear from the Department re taking to orking on both guard s and inmate s safet s jails. of the Bronx. ork ou do. I kno in e ha e a lot to get to I want to thank you both for all the Certainl , it s not eas , but ou ha e 12 partners here at the City Council who are working 13 very closely with you hand-in-hand. 14 thank the staff of the Public Safety Committee, our 15 Senior Legislative Counsel, Deepa Ambekar [sp?], our 16 Legislative Counsel, Beth Golub [sp?], our 17 Legislative Policy Analyst, Casey Addison, and our 18 Senior Legislative Financial Analyst, Steve Riester 19 [sp?], and I d also like to recogni e that 20 joined by members of the Public Safety Committee, our 21 Minority Leader, Council Member Steve Matteo, Council 22 Member Rory Lancman, Vincent Gentile, and James 23 Vacca. 24 and I look forward to a fruitful and productive 25 discussion on toda I too want to e e been Thank you once again for everyone being here, s hearing and a er important 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 topic. 3 colleague and Co-chair, Chair Crowley. And no I ll turn this back o er to m CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 4 12 Thank you. Thank you, Co-chair 5 Gibson. So, today we have our first panel to 6 testify, Commissioner of Department of Corrections, 7 as well as the Bronx District Attorney. 8 that the DOC Commissioner has to leave early. 9 it true that you just have about 15 more minutes I understand So, is 10 here? So, I think that it makes sense to forgo your 11 opening statement and let-- 12 questions. 13 to do it quickly? 14 you questions directly before you leave. Could you 15 summarize it in less than five minutes? I mean, 16 because an one could ha e read 17 the questions that we want answers. 18 to best summarize your testimony, and then when we do 19 ask you questions to you both, you Commissioner and 20 to the District Attorney. 21 right hand and affirm to tell the truth, the whole 22 truth and nothing but the truth in your testimony 23 before the Council and before this committee and 24 answer any questions honestly? 25 COMMISSIONER PONTE: Right? e ll just go into Unless, you know, you would like I would like an opportunity to ask our testimon . It s If you could try Can you just raise your I do. 1 13 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 3 COMMISSIONER PONTE: Thank you. So now for the time, 4 essence of time I d be more than happ 5 questions. 6 apologize for the fact I have an appointment. We do ha e testimon CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 7 to ans er e ll submit. our So, I Understood 8 Commissioner. So, I ll get right into questions. 9 How does the Department of Corrections decide which 10 cases to refer to prosecution, and before that 11 happens, are your inmates who are about to get 12 prosecuted, do they understand their right to 13 counsel? 14 COMMISSIONER PONTE: So, as in any arrest 15 that occurs on island, our officers make the arrest 16 in cooperation 17 So, it s usuall 18 evolves as to ho 19 does it need more evidence; all those discussions 20 happen now with the bureau on island. 21 arrest protocols in place, meaning that at the time 22 of the arrest the inmate is informed of his or her 23 right to counsel. 24 25 ith the District Attorne s office. a dialogue, a discussion as the case to proceed if there s an arrest, The typical 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 2 E er time there s 3 a use of force, is that when the DOC decides to 4 investigate? 5 COMMISSIONER PONTE: 14 So, all incidents, 6 be it forced or other types of incidents in the jail 7 are investigated at different levels depending on the 8 type of incident. 9 investigation. It may be a facility Many investigations are handled by 10 our Internal Affairs or ID Unit depending on the 11 level of severity. 12 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: So, you do some 13 type of review, and then at what point do you contact 14 the District Attorne COMMISSIONER PONTE: 15 16 17 s Office? crime If e belie e it s a e ll t picall -- and now with the attorney, ith the DA Bureau on island, the re t picall 18 in ol ed earl on in the cases, and there 19 phone calls or inquiring, depend-- you know, the-- we 20 do 21 incidents and reports those on the-- on our iPad, 22 Blackberries or devices. 23 be aware of an event. 24 depending on the severity of the event. 25 that s criminal in nature will be investigated by hat s called a COD hich is generall e been talks about So, the DA typically would They may step in early Anything 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 either our ID or our CIB staff in conjunction with 3 the Bureau Chief. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 4 So, let s sa there 5 was a situation where violence breaks out and an 6 inmate is slashed. 7 Attorne 9 How soon does the District s office get in ol ed in COMMISSIONER PONTE: 8 immediate. 15 our in estigation? It could be I ll let the DA talk-- speak to that, but 10 it could be immediate. 11 the event. 12 It could be at the point of CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: But now you have the 13 abilit because the DA s office has offices on Rikers 14 Island to get-- and this is different from before. 15 COMMISSIONER PONTE: 16 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: To get involved 17 right away. COMMISSIONER PONTE: They may show right 18 19 up at the crime scene. 20 jail at the event. They may actually go into the CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 21 22 Right. point do ou notif Okay. And at what the defense s counsel? 23 COMMISSIONER PONTE: So, we not-- we 24 ad ise the inmate of his right to counsel. 25 sure on our need to notify his current counsel. I m not 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Oka , because 2 Defenders, the e heard from the Bron 4 never informed when the Department of Corrections 5 questions one of their clients, and that some process 6 needs to be put in place to make sure that the 7 defendant who is getting pros-- who is about to be 8 prosecuted again, understand that they have the right 9 to counsel. COMMISSIONER PONTE: that the e 3 10 sa 16 re And many people may 11 be in, you know, question as a result of an event and 12 no be the perpetrator. 13 of any investigation talk to many inmates who may not 14 be arrested in this case. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 15 16 understand that 17 against them? hat the But do they re sa ing could be used COMMISSIONER PONTE: 18 19 So, we may, you know, as part If the re a suspect, they would be advised of their rights, yes. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 20 Now, are you 21 working-- the DOC is working closely with the 22 District Attorne 23 networks? 24 25 s Office to dismantle criminal You have the wherewithal? COMMISSIONER PONTE: I think as we develop better intel, looking at the criminal 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 networks that occur inside and outside of our jails, 3 much of either drug trade or weapons. 4 closel 5 sa 6 close e er thing. 7 press charges, and there ll be other net orks that 8 are created behind those. 9 effort to stop criminal behavior inside our jails. 17 We work very ith the DA s office to-- obviously, when you dismantle, ou don t close-- it s not-- We ll ob iously take an event, So, it s a continuous CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 10 e don t When an incident 11 happens, how much do you work together to investigate 12 it to prevent a similar type of situation to happen 13 again? 14 can then sit down with Correction Officers? 15 the real 16 control on what happens, because that s the job of 17 the Department of Corrections. 18 that one is less safe behind bars. 19 doing to really understand why so much inmate on 20 inmate violence is continuing to happen? 21 these types of investigations are you able to then 22 23 24 25 ork Do you have a procedure sin place where you ith orld And in ou re supposed to ha e a greater our officers to sa , However, it seems So, what are you Through Well, ne t time to avoid a situation like this from happening again e re going to do this differentl . 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES COMMISSIONER PONTE: 2 18 Now that we have 3 camera coverage at all of our facilities on Rikers 4 Island, all of our housing areas, many of those 5 events are reviewed real time with us there. 6 any investigation those events are reviewed at a very 7 high level, and feedback is given to the facility on 8 how to improve both safety and staff performance. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 9 After In the past, the 10 Department of Corrections has been criticized about 11 not getting inmates to court appearances in a timely 12 manner. 13 the case that the 14 prosecutions? 15 Now I imagine that has changed. Is that now re sho ing up for these t pes of COMMISSIONER PONTE: We re doing much 16 better. We were just recognized by the courts on our 17 on-time performance over the last couple months. 18 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 19 prosecutions that are happening, there are 20 prosecutions happening on the island, or is it just 21 the investigation? 22 on the island? 23 24 25 And of the Has anyone come before the judge COMMISSIONER PONTE: the DA to respond to. I ll lea e that to 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 2 Do you believe that 3 this new partnership is helping to reduce overall 4 violence? 5 6 COMMISSIONER PONTE: 9 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: So, you believe that now more people are getting arrested that probably eren t arrested in the past? COMMISSIONER PONTE: 10 11 I believe the final outcome will be to reduce overall violence, yes. 7 8 19 I believe that incurring in bigger numbers, yes. 12 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 13 helping to reduce the violence? So, h isn t this COMMISSIONER PONTE: I think the best 14 15 outcome would be consecutive sentencing for these 16 acts. 17 inmates who now pay additional years on their 18 sentence based on violence inside of our jails that 19 will have a dramatic impact. We re still not there et. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 20 21 of ho man 22 reall the DA s, I think. Are there numbers people ha e been prosecuted? 23 COMMISSIONER PONTE: 24 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 25 I think as those That s Right. I m going to recognize the Co-chair for her questions. 1 20 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 2 Thank you very much, 3 Commissioner, and I know our time is short. 4 certainl 5 be much more conversation about this topic which I 6 think is 7 quick questions. 8 increase in arrest form 795 in 2015 to about 1,538 in 9 2016, and I m looking through after toda er So, s hearing, I mean, there important. I m going to ask t o ill er In my opening I talked about the our testimon and I 10 see the efforts that have been made to reduce 11 violence. 12 the increases are coming from? 13 increased population? 14 you give us a sense of the increase in numbers, what 15 that s attributed to? 16 So could you just describe for us where Is it more violence, Is there more contraband? COMMISSIONER PONTE: Can So, there s a number 17 of factors we could look at, both from-- you know, 18 one of the good things is that 19 new staff. 20 it takes time for them to be seasoned and perform at 21 a certain le el. 22 know, the retirement bill in the Department of 23 Corrections is a 20-year retirement. 24 lot of experience walking out the door. 25 agency 20 years ago there was a hiring-- the City had e e hired a lot of One of the things we know with new staff, So that s one of the issues. You So, we have a In the 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 a hiring free e, 3 retirement height that we-- a number of staff who 4 could leave in fairly large numbers, which hurts our 5 experience level in our jails. 6 The gang issues in our jails is so problematic for 7 us, and while the inmates are smaller in number, 8 the 9 serious. So more violent in nature inmates coming 10 hich ob iousl no 21 e re in the Those are factors. re-- obviously, their charges are much more into our jails. CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 11 Okay. And when you 12 talked in your testimony about the 14-point 13 Antiviolence Reform Agenda you talked about de- 14 escalation and crisis intervention training. 15 give us a sense of where we are with that, and does 16 that apply to both uniformed and civilian staff, 17 meaning the medical staff? COMMISSIONER PONTE: 18 It applies to all. 19 As 20 Units, it s a team ork bet een mental health staff 21 and our uniformed staff. 22 we train all of our staff in coming new out of the 23 Academy. 24 effecti e, it s not the ans er. 25 e Can you e had great success in our MO Mental Health It not-- De-escalation is something hile it s good and it s It s not the total 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 ans er. 3 in our mental health units. So, it s something e 22 e had great success CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: And with the training 4 5 and the curriculum, do you get feedback from both 6 uniform and civilian staff on is it successful? 7 the 8 jobs? 9 to an one 10 that the 11 the increased level of mental illness that many of 12 our individuals are facing every day. 13 been the feedback from the staff on the curriculum 14 that the Do feel it s helpful for them to further do their I know many times in the past, and if you talk 15 ho s a CO these da s, the re not social orkers. But ill tell ou e recogni e So what has re being trained? COMMISSIONER PONTE: It s been e tremel Staff ha e used it. It s been successful. 16 possible. 17 It s reduced our incidents in our mental health units 18 substantially over time. 19 and the clinicians talk as a team no . It s been 20 effective, less violence. 21 22 23 24 25 The fact that the offices CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: er Okay, thank you. Chair Crowley? CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Commissioner, what is enhanced supervised housing? 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES COMMISSIONER PONTE: 2 23 We created that 3 about two years ago. It is a higher staff to inmate 4 ratio is half day out of the cell rather than the 14- 5 hour out of cell time. 6 supervision unit. So it s a heightened 7 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 8 enhanced supervised housing versus general 9 population? 10 11 12 13 14 COMMISSIONER PONTE: Why would one be in Generally violence within the jails. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: So, the re-- this is some form of punitive segregation? COMMISSIONER PONTE: It s some form of 15 separation and increased supervision, not punitive 16 segregation. 17 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: When someone goes 18 into puniti e segregation there s a due process that 19 happens internally, correct? 20 COMMISSIONER PONTE: 21 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: How about with your 22 23 24 25 That s correct. enhanced supervised housing? COMMISSIONER PONTE: process for that also. There s a due 1 24 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 2 There is. So then 3 what is the process? Why is somebody in enhanced 4 supervised versus punitive segregation, and how is it 5 really different if from what I understand from what 6 BOC Board Member Hamill had said that the people who 7 are in the enhanced supervised housing are in 8 restraints 9 least hene er the re not in their cell. ith puniti e segregation 10 of our cell 11 correct? 12 hen ou re outside ou re not in restraints. COMMISSIONER PONTE: At Is that So, punitive 13 segregation is a sanction given to inmates based on 14 conduct 15 from one to, in the most violent offenses, 60 days, 16 and then you release on that status. Enhanced 17 supervision housing is a-- it s just hat it states, 18 increased supervision of inmates who are showing a 19 propensity for violence in our jails. 20 21 22 ithin the jail. It s a sentence of an CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: here Do they have to infract in order to get into that? COMMISSIONER PONTE: You would have had 23 to create to commit an event. 24 have landed you in punitive seg, and then eventually 25 That probably would 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 into enhanced supervision housing depending on your 3 histor and the iolence that ou 25 e created. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Is anyone with a 4 5 mental health diagnosis in this enhanced supervised 6 housing? COMMISSIONER PONTE: Seriously mentally 7 8 ill generally are not in those housing units. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 9 But if you have a 10 mental health diagnosis, you can be in those 11 restraints. 12 COMMISSIONER PONTE: That s a possibilit 13 because there s degrees of mental illness. 14 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: So, this is a-- the 15 people in enhanced supervised housing would have 16 ordinarily been in punitive segregation. 17 what 18 amount? ou re sa ing? Is that You re tr ing to decrease the 19 COMMISSIONER PONTE: 20 they would have gone through punitive seg. 21 increased supervision after that. 22 da s after ser ing in puniti e seg doesn t all of the 23 sudden become less 24 increase inmate and staff safety to enhanced 25 supervision after-- iolent. More than likely It is an So, somebody in 60 So it s a way to 1 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: [interposing] And 2 3 it s allo ed 4 Correction? 5 6 26 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES ithin the rules of the Board of COMMISSIONER PONTE: Yes, it was created in the rules of the Board of Corrections. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 7 And did they know 8 that the inmate would be restrained anytime they were 9 not in the cell? COMMISSIONER PONTE: 10 11 it s a ne 12 in order to reduce the violence in some of our more 13 problematic areas. 14 hile the s stem So, an ESH Level I, e created in October of last ear Those inmates are in restraints re at a restraint desk in Le el I, because 15 of safety concerns for staff and other inmates. 16 typically are very violent. 17 or seriously assaulted others. 18 that status. 19 through those statuses, to be out of restraints in 20 Level II and then more out-of-cell time in Level III. They have either slashed That s h the re in They have the ability to progress CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 21 They At any time during 22 the day, are they outside of their cell without the 23 restraints? 24 25 COMMISSIONER PONTE: and showers, yes they are. If the re in rack 1 2 3 4 5 6 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 27 Do they have an hour of recreation without the-COMMISSIONER PONTE: [interposing] They ha e an hour recreation, that s correct. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: And then you could 7 assure the committee here that anybody in enhanced 8 supervised housing would ordinarily be in punitive 9 segregation, but 10 11 ou re tr ing to reduce the numbers that you have in punitive segregation. COMMISSIONER PONTE: No, I think it s 12 more along how do you safely manage somebody over a 13 long period of time. 14 somebody, you know, after 30 days or 60 days in 15 punitive seg, where you going to put them after? 16 this is where we place inmates after they may have 17 served a punitive segregation sentence so they can be 18 safely managed prior to their return to population. 19 I mean, somebody slashing CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: So, And the board 20 internally that you have in the Department of 21 Corrections that gives the amount of time oen would 22 be either in punitive segregation or in enhanced 23 supervised housing. 24 decisions in terms of length time? 25 process internally is there? Who makes up-- who makes those What type of due 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES COMMISSIONER PONTE: 2 28 So, it s in the 3 rule. It was created-- ESH was created by a rule of 4 the BOC, so that s 5 from, which is seven hours-- here the hours of cell time come CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 6 [interposing] But 7 when one is sentenced to these restrictive housing 8 areas, don t the COMMISSIONER PONTE: 9 10 who makes up the panel? COMMISSIONER PONTE: 17 An inmate who goes into ESH gets due process prior to being placed. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 15 16 So, and CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: [interposing] So, 13 14 Yes. inmate-- 11 12 come before a panel? And ho s on the panel? COMMISSIONER PONTE: Just the Adjudication 18 Captain, somebody who normally hears punitive seg, 19 but also hear inmates for placement in ESH. 20 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 21 Commissioner, I understand you have to go. 22 COMMISSIONER PONTE: 23 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 24 the department is here to answer questions? 25 COMMISSIONER PONTE: Okay, I-- Yes. So, somebody from Yes. 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Oka . 3 have to-- you know, I appreciate you coming here. 4 I m a little-- I m disappointed that 5 to stay for the entire hearing, but we hope that Jeff 6 will understand-- your Chief of Staff will be able to 7 answer questions. 8 COMMISSIONER PONTE: 9 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: So, 29 e ll ou re not going Thank you. [off mic comments]. 10 Okay, now if you could raise your right hand? 11 affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing 12 but the truth in your testimony before this committee 13 and to respond honestl 14 questions? to Council Members 15 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: I do. 16 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: And you can 17 18 Do you identify yourself for the record. JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: Jeff 19 Thamkittikasem, Chief of Staff at the Department of 20 Corrections. 21 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Now, I think in 22 interest of the hearing it s best to hear the opening 23 statement if the Bronx District Attorney is-- I 24 imagine that the DOC doesn t reall 25 appropriate. ha e-- think it s 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 30 2 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: Happy to read, or-- 3 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: [interposing] I d 4 rather-- it s more about the prosecutions toda , so I 5 rather we go straight to the District Attorney, and 6 if the District Attorney Darcel Clark could do an 7 opening statement that would be good. 8 Welcome. DARCEL CLARK: 9 11 You need me to swear in? CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 10 Thank you. Yes. Sorry, I don t make the rules. 12 DARCEL CLARK: It s oka . 13 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Do you affirm to 14 tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth in 15 your testimony and in answering the questions of this 16 committee? 17 DARCEL CLARK: Yes, I do. 18 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 19 DARCEL CLARK: Thank you. Good morning, Chairwoman 20 Gibson and members of the Public Safety Committee and 21 good morning to you, Chairwoman Crowley and members 22 of the Fire and Criminal Justices Services Committee. 23 Is this on? 24 you today. I want to first explain that as the Bronx 25 District Attorney I have jurisdiction over all Okay. It is my honor to appear before 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 offenses committed on Rikers Island, even though the 3 bridge to the island runs from Queens, I have legal 4 jurisdiction over any offense committed at any of the 5 facilities on that piece of land. 6 10 months ago, that was in March 2016, asking for 7 your help in providing funding that would allow me to 8 transform Rikers Island, which is my toughest 9 neighborhood, to a facility where people are treated 31 I was here nearly 10 humanely and can work or visit without fear. In that 11 same month I created the Rikers Island Prosecution 12 Bureau. 13 Island Prosecution Bureau and the Public Integrity 14 Bureau which work together to prosecute crimes at 15 Rikers. 16 on crimes by inmates and visitors while the Public 17 Integrity Bureau has official misconduct as its 18 focus. 19 thank you so very much. 20 necessary funds to open a satellite office to house 21 the bureau on Rikers Island and it officially opened 22 its doors almost four months ago. I promised to jump 23 start reforms, and I believe we have made progress in 24 the few months that we have been there working side 25 by side on the front lines with the Department of In that same month I created the Rikers The Rikers Island Prosecution Bureau focuses You came through for me, and for that, I The City provided the 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 Corrections we can measure success in numbers, the 3 number of arrests, the number of convictions of 4 brutal attackers and contraband smugglers, and the 5 number of years behind bars that offenders served. 6 The Rikers Island Prosecution and the Public 7 Integrity Bureau now have a combined total of 27 8 Assistant District Attorneys and 10 support staff 9 members, and I am currently in the process of hiring 32 10 more personnel for both bureaus. The two bureaus 11 work seamlessly with each other and with the 12 Department of Corrections and Department of 13 Investigation. 14 is currently handling over 100 pending indictments 15 and 81 felony investigations involving inmates and 16 visitors. 17 1,100 cases of crimes committed on Rikers Island. 18 Approximately 300 of those cases were felonies and 19 700 were misdemeanors. 20 inmates, their family and friends, as well as 21 correction officers and staff who actively 22 participated in the smuggling of contraband into the 23 jails. 24 than half with convictions. 25 the Public Integrity Bureau in March 2016, we have The Rikers Island Prosecution Bureau Last year, my office prosecuted almost Those charged included And of that number, we have disclosed of more Since the creation of 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 convicted 17 correction officers at Rikers Island on 3 charges of promoting prison contraband, assault, 4 offering false instruments for filing, falsifying 5 business records, and official misconduct. 6 focused m 7 communication 8 about the defendants who commit violent offenses on 9 Rikers Island. 33 I have officer s efforts on creating better ith DOC and other prosecutors offices We are trying to work on global 10 dispositions of pending felony matter matters, or to 11 get those defendants 12 that we can get them off the island as soon as 13 possible. 14 violence that has occurred, but I would suspect that 15 it 16 violence from happening in the first place, and I 17 assure 18 is. 19 violence on Rikers Island. 20 the grisly reports of crimes that happened on Rikers 21 Island. 22 slashed on the bus on the way back to a Rikers jail, 23 and news reports showed a long gash marring his face. 24 So why do these things continue to happen? 25 tell cases tried e peditiousl Now, look, we can always prosecute ould better and ouldn t it better to prevent ou that the ans er is, So, let s talk about ou so Yes, of course it a s that e can reduce You and I have both seen It was just two weeks ago that an inmate was hat I e learned. Let me I want you to look at 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 this two-dollar roll of black electric tape. 3 rolls of tape like this can help inmates smuggle 4 scalpels and other dangerous instruments that have 5 maimed and in some cases nearly killed inmates, 6 correction officers and DOC staff. 7 happen? 8 in black electrical tape, it will bypass the metal 9 detectors at the entrance of the Rikers jail. 34 Simple How does this Well, when a scalpel is completely wrapped How 10 much does a scalpel cost? Well, 100 scalpels can be 11 bought online for less than 10 dollars, 100 for 10 12 dollars on most of the sites, and if 13 you could even get a hundred for about five dollars 14 on EBay. 15 dollars each. A scalpel is contraband, and what 16 contraband is is any item that is not permitted in a 17 jail. 18 as a weapon and is inherently dangerous. 19 addition, objects like tobacco are an invaluable 20 commodity behind bars and therefore is also 21 contraband. 22 other illegal drugs. 23 to violence at Rikers. 24 investigation into a tobacco smuggling ring, DLC 25 investigative staff intercepted packages of tobacco ou re luck , In the jail, one scalpel is worth 50 A scalpel is contraband because it can be used In Marijuana is contraband, as are all Trafficking in contraband leads For example, in a recent 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 and marijuana. 3 cohorts didn t get the packages, the 4 they were stolen. 5 surveillance plotting to brutally attack other 6 inmates over this theft. 7 made before the tobacco could fuel such violence. 8 Unfortunately, this is only one of many examples of 9 how contraband is a catalyst for violence. 35 When the inmate dealer and his assumed that The inmates were heard on Fortunately, arrests were It is a 10 very clear and present danger for both staff and 11 inmates. 12 rake in thousands of dollars on Rikers Island. 13 know that contraband is a leading trigger of violence 14 because 15 is state of the art technology that if available to 16 DOC would detect weapons and contraband. 17 half of the contraband smuggled into Rikers is 18 brought in by secreting it in body cavities. 19 support Commissioner Ponte s recommendation on this 20 technology, TSA-style body scanners, the cell sense 21 [sic] plus portable scanners, and the ionizing 22 radiation body scanners, along with the enabling 23 legislation that would help them be able to use those 24 idolizing [sic] body scanners. 25 significant re-- I have dedicated significant Small amounts of tobacco and marijuana can e We e seen it time and time again, but there More than I I have described 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 resources of my office to prosecuting the violence on 3 Rikers Island, but as much as we are committed to 4 working hard on prosecuting cases of contraband and 5 the devastating results that they produce, 6 investigators simply cannot uncover smuggled items 7 into the facilities without the proper technology at 8 their disposal. 9 is gangs. 36 The other leading factor in violence It is well-known that gangs turn to 10 violence to retaliate against members suspected of 11 cooperating with law enforcement. 12 merely a coincidence that the targeted efforts 13 against gangs by District Attorneys of this city and 14 NYPD have further caused beat-downs and slashing s 15 behind bars. 16 gangs had led to larger concentration of gangs held 17 on Rikers Island. 18 is brutality as larger gangs want to assert their 19 dominance while on Rikers Island. 20 hub of a criminal network that has tentacles because 21 it goes beyond the walls of the jails and reaches 22 throughout the City. 23 assisted my Gangs Bureau to make a case against the 24 leader of the Bloodhound Brims who allegedly was 25 ordering shootings and stabbings of rivals from his It is also not Moreover, large take-downs of specific Once again, the response to this And Rikers is the The Rikers Island Bureau 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 cell at Rikers. 3 is consecutive sentencing for crimes committed in 4 correctional facilities. 5 sentencing is what my office seeks to achieve in 6 making recommendations to judges as sentencing 7 proceedings for violent inmates. 8 commit crime in custod , m 9 recommend consecutive sentences. 37 A major deterrent to such violence Indeed, consecutive When individuals ADA s are instructed to What that means is 10 that the defendant will begin to serve his prison 11 term for the crime he committed on Rikers Island only 12 after he has completely served his term for the crime 13 that placed him in Rikers Island in the first place. 14 It is, of course, the judge who has the final say 15 whether to impose such a consecutive sentence, but 16 our Rikers Island Prosecution Bureau is having 17 positive results in this area through preparation and 18 zealous advocacy. 19 these devastating assaults that there will be real 20 consequences and that they will come at a steep 21 price, and that is longer jail sentences. 22 example, a defendant who slashed an inmate at Rikers 23 received four years for it, and the judge made it 24 consecutive, too. 25 that he got for his underlying case. We need to show inmates who commit For That is on top of the prison term We consider 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 that a success, because swift and certain consecutive 3 sentences for violence committed in DOC facility 4 should deter violence and not encourage it. 5 the question is this, where do we go from here? 6 There are impediments to making Rikers safer that are 7 inherent in the very nature of what a jail is 8 required to do, to provide care, custody and control 9 of those accused of crimes. 38 Finally, When an assault occurs 10 in the jails, many times we face obstacles to 11 prosecution. 12 perpetrators and clean up the areas in order to 13 resume normal operations before DOC investigators 14 arrive. 15 that sort of facility. 16 jail, and we cannot stop being prosecutors who have a 17 need to preserve a crime scene. 18 tension there. 19 defendants 20 officer s efforts to hold 21 accountable. 22 is being used by other law enforcement that allow for 23 the quick gathering of data and the essential 24 preservation of the crime scene. 25 arranged for the NYPD to provide training to a DOC staff need to secure the That, of course, is the nature of running Rikers cannot stop being a There is a natural The use of video surveillance and statements ha e significantl assisted m iolent inmates We continue to explore technology that My office has 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 greater number of DOC investigative staff as well as 3 Rikers Bureau, Detectives, Investigators, and DOI 4 personnel. 5 Department of Corrections can become certified in 6 evidence collection in the same way as NYPD. 7 believe DOC investigators should receive training 8 similar to that of detectives in NYPD and Fire 9 Marshalls in the Fire Department. 39 We will find a means through with the We also We would also like 10 to have DOC obtain 3D evidence scanners to 11 memorialize crime scenes accurately and swiftly. 12 to the courts, with the assistance of the Honorable 13 George Grasso [sp?], the New York City Criminal Court 14 Citywide Administrative Judge for Arraignments, we 15 successfully cleared a backlog of over 100 Rikers 16 cases that had been pending arraignment for long 17 periods of time. 18 communication and coordination with DOC and the 19 courts, my office should never be placed in the 20 position of having that sort of backlog again. 21 believe my office and its new practices and 22 procedures have had a positive impact on Rikers 23 Island. 24 the outset, Rikers is my toughest neighborhood. 25 knew when I started that there would be no quick fix, As More importantly, through better However, challenges remain. I As I said at I 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 but we are making progress more quickly than I 3 thought. 4 four months, and no 5 to do to go further to make things safer. 6 is committed to being a strong partner with DOC in 7 the efforts to reform Rikers Island. 8 our presence there to ensure that crimes are 9 investigated and prosecuted more quickly, and I am 40 We have begun to make some in-roads in just e re identif ing what we need My office I intend to use 10 confident that we are moving in the right direction. 11 Thank you very much for your continued support. 12 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Thank you very much, 13 DA Clark. That was an extensive and very 14 comprehensive analysis of your work with this unit in 15 just four short months. 16 certainl 17 advocacy, making sure that you got the sufficient 18 funding and the adopted budget was very crucial to 19 moving forward. 20 happ 21 dedicated. 22 questions, and first, let me acknowledge the members 23 who have joined us. 24 Ferreras Copeland, Council Member Jumaane Williams, 25 Council Member Mathieu Eugene, Council Member Rafael thank I want to commend you and ou for the ork ou e done, our I was there at the opening and I was to see the le el of staff that s alread been So, I just want to get into a couple of We have Council Members Julissa 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 Espinal, Council Member Chaim Deutsch, Council Member 3 Ritchie Torres, and Council Member Fernando Cabrera 4 have joined us. 5 So, first I want to begin with the staffing. 6 indicated the prosecution unit and the Public 7 Integrity Bureau. 8 staff. 9 staff in the Prosecution Unit or more Public Thank you very much, colleagues. Can you give us an analysis? Integrity Unit? 11 functions, right? 13 You You have 27 ADA s and 10 support 10 12 41 Are there more Because they have two different DARCEL CLARK: Well, presently they have about an even amount. 14 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 15 DARCEL CLARK: Okay. But we need more, and 16 thankfully, for the funding that we received from the 17 City, I am still in the process of hiring more 18 Assistant DA s as well as support and administrative 19 staff to assist us in that effort. 20 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Okay. So, just for 21 clarification, the new Rikers Island Prosecution 22 Bureau focuses only on cases in which the inmate or a 23 visitor is a defendant, but not when a correction 24 officer is the defendant. 25 DARCEL CLARK: That s correct. 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 3 DARCEL CLARK: 4 inmates and visitors. 5 DOC staff and officers. Okay. Rikers Island deals with Public Integrity deals with CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 6 42 Okay, great. If an 7 offense occurs in the jail, who investigates the 8 offense first? 9 what process takes place when an offence occurs on Can you give us a step-by-step on 10 the jail? Does DOC begin the investigation, because 11 in your testimony you talked a lot about different 12 measures 13 including NYPD Investigators where DOC officials are 14 essentially trained the same as in NYPD 15 Investigators? ou d like to incorporate 16 DARCEL CLARK: Right. ith staffing, and When something 17 happens on the island, it s the Department of 18 Corrections that initiates the investigation, at 19 least as far as the Rikers Island Prosecution Bureau 20 is concerned. 21 be DOC as well as the Department of Investigation. It 22 also has a jurisdiction over investigations of Public 23 Integrit . 24 incident it depends on what the incident is. 25 With the Public Integrity piece it can So, it ould be DOC. If there s an 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 Everything is on a case-by-case basis, but DOC is on 3 the ground first. CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 4 Okay. 43 And speaking 5 of cases, you mentioned that your bureau is handling 6 100 pending indictments and 81 pending felony 7 investigations involving inmates and visitors. 8 DARCEL CLARK: Yes. 9 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Are these cases that 10 you inherited or is this just since the unit was 11 created four months ago? 12 DARCEL CLARK: It s a combination. Some 13 of them are-- you know, before the bureau got on- 14 island, we still were having cases-- 15 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: [interposing] Right. 16 DARCEL CLARK: 17 prosecuting them. brought in. So, it s a combination of both. CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 18 I was still Okay, so the cases 19 you inherited plus current cases, you know, obviously 20 this unit is to streamline the process much better so 21 that 22 types of cases, correct? ou ha e ADA s that are onl focused on these 23 DARCEL CLARK: Right, yes. 24 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 25 Okay. And also let me ask some of the-- so you said that you are in the 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 process of hiring additional staff for both the 3 prosecution unit and Public Integrity, right? DARCEL CLARK: 4 I m in the process of 5 hiring Assistant DA s for m 6 know, we changed office to vertical prosecution. 7 What the type of-- because 8 lot more cases that 9 so I really need more assistance in Rikers Island 10 13 As you e re on-island, there s a e re investigating right away, CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Oka , ou put that out there for the public. ell I m glad So, I m sure that-DARCEL CLARK: [interposing] Yes, go to my 14 15 entire office. immediatel , and I m inter iewing every day. 11 12 44 website-- 16 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: there will be many-- 17 DARCEL CLARK: [interposing] BronxDA.gov. 18 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: interested parties 19 that will be coming to you. 20 day-to-day with DOC officials and investigative 21 staff. What is the relationship you have as well with 22 the correctional staff? 23 represents correction officers, 24 relationship and how are you guys working together? 25 Wanted to ask, you work So, the union that hat s the 1 45 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES DARCEL CLARK: 2 I think e re orking ell 3 with the Corrections Unions as well. I know that the 4 President of COBA is here, Elias Husamudeen and we 5 speak on a regular basis, and I think that 6 developed a pretty good working relationship, 7 professional. 8 disagree, but we keep the lines of communication 9 open. 10 them. We don t al a s agree, but e e agree to So, we have a very good relationship with CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 11 e Okay. One of the 12 challenges that we talked about months ago before the 13 unit was created was the transportation and getting 14 inmates from Rikers Island to the Bronx to go into 15 court. 16 that s involved the Office of Court Administration 17 and with it being a new year, is there still current 18 conversations and will it be a priority to work with 19 the state to find out ways in which we can get a 20 physical courthouse on the island? 21 plan of yours? 22 I know that there is another stakeholder DARCEL CLARK: Is that still a Yes, and I think we have 23 an agreement in principle with the Office of Court 24 Administration. I had a meeting last week with the 25 Chief Administrative Judge of the state, Larry Marks, 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 and we agree in principle, and it is going to be a 3 priority this year, because I think it would be a 4 tremendous help to have a courthouse right there on 5 Rikers Island. 6 that has to be worked out. 7 one of their-- one of the asks of the court is that 8 they want a real bricks and mortar building to be the 9 courthouse because of the fact that, It s just the logistics that I think I know that the courts, ou kno , it s 10 inmates, it has to be open to the public. 11 trailer 12 looking into those matters for this 13 priority. ould not be sufficient. CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 14 46 So, So, a ou kno , ear. e re It s a And if that happens- 15 - when it happens, let me speak it into existence, 16 when it happens would there be administrative 17 proceedings or would there be trials that would 18 actually take place on the island? 19 DARCEL CLARK: I think to roll it out 20 first we have to see what we can do, baby steps. 21 think the first thing that needs to happen is to have 22 the arraignments done there. 23 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Okay. 24 DARCEL CLARK: 25 and that s I That way, I mean, with-- hat created the backlog in the first 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 place is that there were cases that needed to be 3 in estigated. 4 and complaints 5 getting those inmates to 161st Street to the courts. 6 The problem is that 7 pre-trial detainees with newly arrested people with 8 NYPD arrests. 9 amount of inmates that can go to be arraigned on Let s sa they were even prosecuted ere dra n up, but it s difficult to ou can t mi inmates ho are So, therefore, it was only a limited 10 161st Street. 11 it right at Rikers Island. 12 all the way to 161st Street. The 13 about being mixed 14 done right on island. That problem is eliminated if you do The ith NYPD ne CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 15 47 don t ha e to tra el don t ha e to orr arrests; it ll be Okay. I wanted to 16 ask a question. You talked a lot in your testimony 17 about technolog , and I kno 18 know where we are with, you know, the TSA-style body 19 scanners. 20 inexpensive electrical tape and the level contraband 21 that s ob iousl 22 disturbing, easily accessible, and just not, you 23 know, having the latest and up-to-date technology. 24 wanted to ask with the 14-point plan the DOC has 25 outlined on reducing violence and identifying those there is a plan. I don t In your example, obviously, the brought onto the island is e tremel I 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 gangs and crews and the different operations, how 3 often is your office involved and how much, you know, 4 up to speed are you kept in terms of working with DOC 5 to identify, and really for your unit to understand 6 those crews and those operations, almost like the old 7 NYPD Gang Unit and how we identify the crew 8 operations, are you kept up to speed in the latest in 9 the gang world? DARCEL CLARK: 10 48 Absolutely. We work hand- 11 in-hand ith DOC s gang intel. 12 for us. We give them information that we find out 13 form out on the street. I have a gang major case unit 14 in my office that deals with those members who are 15 out on the street. 16 downs, we know which gangs they are because we took 17 them down. That in turn, that information is turned 18 over DOC to know you got a whole influx of this gang 19 or this set or this crew coming into Rikers Island. 20 So, they do the work that they do as far as their 21 intel as well. 22 time. 23 The pro ide intel So when we have these big take- We keep each other informed all the JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: To add to that, 24 exactly that, with the Rikers bureau on island we 25 also have the ability to kind of update things on a 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 very day-to-day basis as opposed to just doing an 3 analysis on growing gang trends and reporting them 4 out every week or e er 5 between our two organizations that people are aware 6 of where they are, not just in terms of the broader 7 gangs, but also in what facilities and what 8 populations those gang members might be concentrated. month, it s a dail CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 9 s topic is ob iousl cit Okay. operation So, I know 10 toda 11 know, most of the conversation is around Rikers 12 Island. 13 the majorit 14 comes from Rikers Island, is that safe to say? jails, right, but ou Can you give me an idea, probably from DOC, of the iolence in our cit JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: 15 49 s jails Well, just based on 16 population in terms of proportion, e e got, ou 17 know, over 7,000 on Rikers Island directly out of the 18 9,500 average daily population. 19 proportion that s true. So, just by CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: How is it determined 20 21 whether you go to Rikers Island or one of the city 22 jails in another borough? 23 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: It depends a lot on 24 just categorization and the classification of the 25 inmate. Several of our borough facilities we try to 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 focus on short-stayers, people who are going to be 3 released in a short time, so the 4 community. We also have special population kind of 5 areas within each of those boroughs. 6 obviously is on the island where we have a lot more 7 resources where we have places for the severely 8 mentally ill, those who are higher offenders and more 9 security concerns because we have the resources on 10 island to deal with that population. So, we try to 11 separate based on that. 12 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 50 re closer to the A lot of it Okay. In that same 13 conversation, the number of inmates that are known to 14 be involved in gangs and the activity on the street 15 continues on the island, is that also a factor where 16 DOC 17 unit on Rikers, but because of that 18 separate those inmates and put them in another 19 location. 20 ill sa e ha e a kno n gang that s in the same JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: What e e re going to That s right, 21 Council Member. e tried to do o er the last 22 two years is build a new classification system that 23 actually allows us to better capture gang 24 memberships, sets within gang memberships and house 25 them accordingly so that we can balance between 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 different gangs so that, you know, an entire gang 3 doesn t run an entire unit on their o n and that e 4 kind of create better separation. e 5 tried to 6 office to increase our intelligence so we really 7 understand not just kind of leaders, but also members 8 of gangs which, you know, gets to kind of getting 9 intelligence from the streets and really 10 incorporating to what we do in our jails. 11 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: ork closer Certainly, 51 e ith both the NYPD and the DA s And I think one of 12 the challenges that we continue to confront is the 13 messaging and what we send as a message. 14 repetitive offenders that, you know, unfortunately 15 are in Rikers, you know, in the first place, but 16 don t belie e their consequences, 17 there will be consequences for their actions, and so 18 they engage in the repetitive violence on the island, 19 and you know, e er one s in jeopardy, the staff, the 20 CO s. 21 continue to say and not only just say it, but we have 22 to show it in our actions and in the work we do, and 23 you know, DA Clark, you talked about that, because 24 there s too man 25 you know, those that are on Rikers Island that are I mean, ou kno -- that hat is the message that repeat offenders. The e ha e to And e en the-- 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 just there to do their time and go home, the 3 danger too. 4 you know, we think about all the time, because you 5 know, these perpetrators that are there that just 6 want to impose violence on someone else is a major 7 problem, and these are the numbers we have to stop. 8 Like, it s unacceptable to me. So, re in ou kno , and it s something that, DARCEL CLARK: 9 52 Well, I agree with you and 10 I think that s why consecutive sentencing is the 11 answer. 12 they could act at free will because whatever they do 13 on Rikers is going to be a freebie as a result of the 14 underl ing case that the 15 example 16 first place because he committed a crime in Brooklyn. 17 So he s in Rikers and on bail. 18 slash an inmate, slash a correction officer, and 19 e These inmates think that they can just-- ha e. So, let s sa for e ha e an inmate that s in Rikers in the He can, ou kno , e heard statements like this from inmates saying 20 that it doesn t matter, I m going to get concurrent 21 time anyway. 22 get sentenced on the underlying case, then the Rikers 23 case doesn t mean a thing. The 24 they know as they commit those offenses on Rikers 25 that it s mandator So that one becomes free, and if they get it for free. consecuti e, the ll stop, and If e 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 need to get that message out to them that it s no 3 longer a freebie, but it s consecuti e. 4 to sa 5 I would hate to have any discretion taken away from, 6 but if we really want to get rid of the violence, the 7 judges can t ha e the discretion to make it 8 concurrent. 53 We need la s that it s consecuti e, and as a former judge, It needs to be consecutive. CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Okay. And my final 9 10 question before I turn it back over to my chair and 11 other colleagues that have questions, in the City and 12 you know, let me focus on Bronx County, in the past 13 ear e e had se eral major take-down cases that 14 involved heavy drug trafficking, major crime and 15 violence, and many of those cases obviously, you 16 know, came from Rikers Island but were a part of a 17 larger take do n that in ol ed DOC, NYPD, the DA s 18 office, but also our federal prosecutors. 19 what extent do they work with you? 20 a lot of ongoing 21 you know, we hear about once it happens, but we know 22 that there are more to come. 23 relationship that both DOC and the DA s office ha e 24 with our federal prosecutors? 25 ork that So, to Because there s e don t see, and I kno , So hat s the 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES DARCEL CLARK: 2 We ork 54 Well, I could speak with 3 the DA s office. ell ith the southern 4 district. 5 different requirements to bring the cases that they 6 bring, the Rico [sic] cases and things of that 7 nature. 8 old cases. 9 in Rikers Island on a case that I am prosecuting, but They have, you know, different laws and So what they have are new case as well as Some of their defendants can be sitting 10 the federal authorities have the ability to, you 11 know, supersede my charges and make their charges 12 part of their federal investigation. 13 those inmates are takin out of Rikers and put into 14 federal custody. 15 jails. So sometimes Other times they sit in the city It depends on the case. 16 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Okay. 17 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: On the DOC side, 18 just we also kind of dedicate resources to kind of 19 partnering up with different organi ations. 20 a joint command center for high-def [sic] with the 21 federal agencies involved in several prosecutions. 22 So we sit at that area and we also continue to keep 23 the lines open whenever NYPD initiates things with 24 federal help. 25 There s 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Okay. 3 much. 55 Thank you very I ll turn it o er Chair Cro le . CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 4 Thank you, Chair 5 Gibson. I want to ask about the jail-based arrests. 6 The numbers have gone up significantly, looking at 7 the fiscal years 14, 15, 16. 8 ended in June, there was 1,538. However, District 9 Attorney, when you said the number of open cases, it Fiscal Year 16, which 10 seemed like there was on-- there was 101 indictments, 11 81 felonies. 12 arrests? 13 at these fiscal years and see where the inmate is in 14 the judicial process? 15 16 17 Where are we with all the other Like, do you have a way that we could look DARCEL CLARK: I m not sure I understand your question. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Right now-- I think 18 I heard you correctly. 19 Co-chair asked about the open cases that are being 20 worked on Rikers Island right now, there was a number 21 of 101 indictments, 81 felony prosecutions under way. 22 So, if you could tell me how many open cases your 23 office is working with on Rikers Island. 24 25 I might not have. DARCEL CLARK: When my I just told you the figures for the felonies that are open. Those are 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 the current indictments that we have filed right now. 3 There s also pending in estigations 4 to an arrest 5 perhaps an arrest will come about and perhaps not. 6 We have to investigate-- et. 56 hich ha en t led We re still in estigating, and 7 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: [interposing] Right. 8 DARCEL CLARK: the case. There s also a 9 number of misdemeanors as well that are pending, and 10 after, you know, some of the investigations there may 11 not be any criminal charges that lie, but we still 12 have to investigate them. 13 have with me. 14 tell you we are actively involved in indicting 15 inmates every day, visitors who come in smuggling 16 things. 17 in estigations 18 specificall 19 kno , it s an ongoing process. 20 The e act numbers I don t I could get that for you, but I could These are happening as well as the ongoing hich I can t necessaril because speak to e re in estigating, but CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: ou So, your office can 21 get us the numbers. I believe that we should now 22 request more information in the Ma or s Management 23 Report when we look at the number of arrests to 24 understand better how many were felonies versus 25 misdemeanors, but where we are in the process of the 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 case being adjudicated. 3 get us those numbers. Your office would be able to DARCEL CLARK: 4 5 pending, ou 6 what is-- 57 ant to kno so you mean if the case is ho long it s been pending, 7 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: [interposing] Yeah. 8 DARCEL CLARK: 9 what has holding up the disposition of that case? CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 10 Right, and what the 11 end result was to measure whether anyone is getting 12 sentenced to consecutive time. DARCEL CLARK: 13 We can get you that. We 14 could-- one of the-- I think one of the things that 15 hinders that type of information-- we could get it 16 for 17 dealing with inmates who have cases that are pending 18 all o er the cit . 19 cases. 20 commit on Rikers, but unfortunately what drives the 21 train a lot is the underlying case that got them on 22 Rikers in the first place. 23 you can hear this from the defense attorney, if a 24 person has a case pending in Brookl n, the 25 to get that Brooklyn case adjudicated first before ou, but hat ou ha e to reali e is that I m So, it s not just the Bron I m in charge of those crimes that the So, a lot of times, and re tr ing 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 58 2 the hat 3 dela s the total disposition. 4 we work for global disposition. 5 other four District Attorneys so that we can make 6 these Rikers inmates, especially the ones that are 7 committing the violence, we make them a priority. 8 work together with the underlying case as well as the 9 Rikers case to try to get a global disposition, and 10 if not, get the judges to make it a priority to push 11 those cases up so they could be tried right away so 12 we could get those individuals out of Rikers Island 13 that are causing the violence. 14 talk about a Rikers Island case. That s CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: I m So that s h I said that orking ith the We What is preventing 15 your office from doing that? 16 correctly, there could be a way in the near future 17 that somebody who is getting arraigned for an arrest 18 that happened on Rikers Island will go before the 19 judge that heard the first case that put that inmate 20 on the island. 21 22 23 DARCEL CLARK: presently that does that. If I understand Well, there s no la I mean,-- CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: [interposing] But 24 there s no la that pre ents us from making sure that 25 would happen and we could do that. 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES DARCEL CLARK: 2 3 jurisdiction. 4 Bron 5 I mean-- What ou re talking about, and CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: [interposing] Alright, okay. I got it. DARCEL CLARK: 8 9 Well, there s no Whatever happens in Rikers is the s jurisdiction. 6 7 59 I I e talked about this and e heard people talk about it. If a person-- I 10 keep using Brooklyn, but it could be Queens or any 11 other borough. 12 Queens and that inmate causes violence in Rikers 13 Island, then ma be perhaps the Queens DA s office 14 should have jurisdiction to prosecute that case. 15 That would give the DA more leverage. 16 17 If a person has an underlying case in CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: No, no, no, I understand. 18 DARCEL CLARK: [inaudible] 19 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: I understand, but 20 do you have the support of your colleagues who are in 21 the various other boroughs offices, those District 22 Attorneys? 23 ask the state to allow the jurisdiction to change, 24 your office would still do the prosecutions, or you 25 would need other prosecutors coming on the island for If a plan was put in place and we were to 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 wherever their original crime occurred, is that 3 right? 4 that is based in Queens Criminal Court versus Staten 5 Island, 6 well, is that right? Because if you have to go before the judge ou ll need a prosecutor from that borough as DARCEL CLARK: 7 Yeah, because they have 8 the jurisdic-- they have the jurisdiction to 9 prosecute their own cases. 10 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: The first case. 11 DARCEL CLARK: 12 60 The first case, right. I have the second case, which is the Rikers case. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 13 So, the only way to 14 get a judge, the same judge, is to allow the other 15 boroughs on the island? 16 17 DARCEL CLARK: I mean, perhaps, but ou re talking about-- I mean, a court on Rikers 18 Island is not going to be capable, is not going to be 19 like a real courthouse 20 you could try it and everting else. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 21 22 23 here there s a jur bo here Right. I mean, I could see there being video indictments, you know, here ou don t ha e to lea e the island if ou build 24 a system where you have District Attorney from the 25 five boroughs there that you could be able to have 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 the District Attorne s, ADA s working there and then 3 being before a judge in a type of video setting. It 4 seems like the only way to answer this problem is to 5 get sentences that are consecutive, and 6 getting there because 7 the judges who-- the 9 t o different judges. re the decision-making body. Right, but it s usuall It s the judge-- CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: [interposing] Right, 10 11 e re not e re not getting in front of DARCEL CLARK: 8 right, right. 12 DARCEL CLARK: that has the underlying 13 case and the judge in the Bron 14 Rikers case. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 15 that s handling the But your office is 16 mostly just doing the investigations that are 17 happening. 18 judge on Rikers Island. 19 20 21 Your office is not able to go before a DARCEL CLARK: There s no judge on Rikers Island. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Right. So, 22 alright, I understand that. 23 be a way to be a video type of set up so that the 24 inmate doesn t ha e to lea e the island? 25 61 Do you think there could 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES DARCEL CLARK: 2 62 We have video conferencing 3 no ithin the jails and in the courthouses. 4 just that the la 5 or any video conferencing that has to be done has to 6 have the consent of the defense or the defendant. 7 ou re not getting that kind of consent, then it doesn t allo The technolog arraignments by video 8 can t happen. 9 great, but it s just not happening. is there. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 10 It s It If ould be Well, I mean, it 11 doesn t seem to be helping the number of arrests 12 increasing, doesn t seem to be helping 13 inmate on inmate violence, and the end goal is to 14 reduce the violence and make the jail safer. 15 order for an inmate to think twice about getting 16 involved in a situation, they would need to be 17 seriousl 18 hurdles put in place for the vast majority of the 19 inmates, because the 20 a crime first in the borough of the Bronx in order to 21 have the same judge for the crime they commit on 22 Rikers Island. 23 prosecuted, and no ith the there s just too many d ha e to ha e reall DARCEL CLARK: Well, 24 it s on the Bron 25 Unless that changes, that s-- And in committed eah, that s a -- DA that has the jurisdiction. 1 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: [interposing] Yeah, 2 3 63 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES no, I understand. 4 DARCEL CLARK: the way that it is. 5 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: But-- right. I knw 6 we have our colleagues here who have questions. 7 there a list? 8 Member Gentile for questions. I would like to recognize Council COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 9 Is Thank you and 10 thank you, District Attorney, and DOC for being here. 11 Just following up on the 100 pending indictments, and 12 to be clear because I think we went back and forth, 13 you do not have a grand jury impaneled on Rikers, 14 correct? DARCEL CLARK: 15 16 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 21 Grand jury impaneled. 19 20 A grand jury? 17 18 Have a what? DARCEL CLARK: No, the grand jury is in the Bronx. COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: Okay. So, if a 22 defendant at Rikers wanted to testify and waive their 23 immunity, they have to be transported. 24 25 DARCEL CLARK: Absolutely, yes. 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 2 3 64 Does that happen often? DARCEL CLARK: 4 Well, yeah. If they have 5 a pending case, they have a right to testify. 6 allows that. 7 order for them to testify. 8 go into the grand jur , it s not man , but some of 9 them do exercise that right because they have the 10 1950 So, we have to transport them there in How many of them actually right. COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 11 Right, okay. 12 Would it be better for you if you had a grand jury 13 one or two days a week on the island? DARCEL CLARK: 14 Anything would help, but I 15 don t kno -- I mean, it s hard enough getting those 16 grand juries in the Bronx. COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 17 18 To show up, right? 19 DARCEL CLARK: Something about those jury 20 subpoenas that people don t like. I mean, an thing 21 would help. 22 the crimes 23 being charged for them. 24 for them, okay. 25 know about, to put a-- to make it more stringent, I think the bottom line is this, that ere happening before the Now, the eren t e en re being charged So those are consequences that they 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 they need to understand that there are consequences 3 for collecting cases, Rikers cases, and that means 4 consecutive time. 5 for it to really mean something, and we need to 6 communicate that to the inmates, sa , 7 longer a freebie. 8 will sit there, they could be even convicted and 9 ready to go upstate, and the 65 We need the consecutive sentencing Look, it s no You kno , because some of them ll commit acts so they 10 can stay downstate by slashing and cutting and 11 splashing and doing all kinds of things so that new 12 charges could be brought and then have to still stay 13 down here until those cases are disposed of. 14 to get them out of Rikers as soon as possible. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 16 hen ou sa in our testimon matters, We need So, that s-- global dispositions 17 of pending felon that s hat ou re 18 talking about, packaging a plea on all cases whether 19 it s a Brookl n case, a Queens case and a Rikers 20 case-- 21 DARCEL CLARK: [interposing] Right. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: to combine all 23 the cases together, you have a global, as you call 24 it, a global disposition-- 25 DARCEL CLARK: [interposing] Yes. 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 2 66 on the felonies 3 so that they could be then transferred to an upstate 4 facility. 5 DARCEL CLARK: 6 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 7 hat Oka , that s ou re talking about. DARCEL CLARK: 8 9 Absolutely, yes. That s hat I mean, e cept that right now, that has to happen in two places. In 10 the Bronx the plea has to be taken on the Rikers case 11 and the other jurisdiction, the other, the felony, 12 the underlying felony, the plea has to be taken in 13 that particular borough. COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 14 Then if that s 15 before two different judges, who imposes the 16 sentence? DARCEL CLARK: Well, there 17 hole thing. 18 the 19 of the Rikers case first, because what happens is 20 that those other counties back up my cases because 21 the 22 first. 23 that got them there in the first place. 24 it takes for them to get rid of that case either by 25 trial or by a plea, I have to wait for that. don t It s like I ou go, that s ould lo e to get rid ant to take a plea on the Rikers one They want to dispose of the one, the case However long So 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 that s 3 together. 4 crime-drivers in Rikers. 5 pending? 6 h What are ell. it s important that the DA s 67 ork We sit, take a list, these are the top Where are their cases Sit down, talk to each other, and say, ou offering? Speak ith the defense bar 7 as We don t keep them out of it because a 8 global disposition means all parties, the judges, the 9 defense attorne s, the DA s, e er one in ol ed, and 10 see if we can come to a, you know, a understanding 11 where there s a disposition on a plea, and then we 12 get the person out of Rikers as soon as possible. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 14 hope or is it actually happening? 15 with the other DA s, and-- 16 17 18 19 So, is that a Are you sitting DARCEL CLARK: [interposing] We have started. No, yeah, we have started, absolutely. COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: And talking about those types of dispositions. 20 DARCEL CLARK: 21 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: Okay. 22 DARCEL CLARK: 23 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 24 25 ou re successful yet? Yes. Yes. Has this been 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES We re tr ing, but 68 2 DARCEL CLARK: 3 kno , again, it s so man 4 know, how many judges are there to actually try the 5 cases. 6 you know, they never-- the don t ha e trial capacit 7 an We ll 8 Wait out the cases, drag it along. 9 forget. factors, the judges, you Some people don t a . I could just ou ant to take a plea because ait. ait them out. The witnesses People disappear, things like that happen. 10 With Rikers cases here it s inmate on inmate, one 11 inmate might be there for a certain amount of time 12 and ne t thing 13 they get acquitted or they go upstate and no longer 14 do you ha e access to the 15 waiting game. ou kno the re released on bail or itnesses. So it s a 16 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: I see. 17 DARCEL CLARK: 18 So,-- [interposing] And delays are, you know, delays are not good for the people. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 20 multi-tasking problem that you face. 21 DARCEL CLARK: 22 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: Yeah, so it s a Yes. Is the word 23 though getting out to the inmate population about 24 consecutive sentences versus the concurrent 25 sentences? 1 69 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES DARCEL CLARK: 2 Well, e re hoping-- I 3 mean, do we have a concentrated, like, marketing 4 strateg to get the 5 et. 6 I kno 7 no . 8 them before. 9 ord out? We ha en t done that Ma be that s something that that those inmates kno The re catching ne e need to do, but that I m prosecuting cases hen the But again, it s the Alright, I ll just didn t get aiting game: ait until I finish m 10 case, and then 11 end, the 12 well, you know, to the DA, 13 and run it concurrent with the other one and we can 14 get him out of Rikers. 15 then the message doesn t get to the inmate, because 16 that s 17 I ll get it all 18 and I could lea e. ith Rikers. hat the reak ha oc. 20 consecutive. kno . That seems encouraging, but We ll just rapped in one. That s You kno , the h ait it out. It ll be concurrent, the continue to need to kno that it s Because as you call it a freebie. 23 DARCEL CLARK: 24 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 25 the Look, just offer him this COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 21 So, b e been in so long that the judges sa , 19 22 e ll deal other yeah. It s a freebie. Right. That s-- 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES DARCEL CLARK: 2 70 And it s a danger to the 3 correction officers and staff, because that s e actl 4 what they say to them when they commit these crimes 5 right in front of them or to them: 6 It s going to be concurrent an a . 7 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 8 DARCEL CLARK: 9 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: DARCEL CLARK: 10 Don t matter. Uh-hm. That s a safet problem. Right. so, consecutive 11 sentencing, to me, is the answer, and we could-- you 12 know, we could put up signs just like we put signs 13 everywhere else in the Department of Corrections 14 about, you know, the phone calls, you know, whatever, 15 contraband. 16 to know. 17 sheriff in to n because I m prosecuting them now. Anything we warn them about, they need You kno , the kno right no there s a ne 18 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 19 DARCEL CLARK: [interposing] The 20 23 24 25 eren t getting that before. COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 21 22 They-- The re getting the-DARCEL CLARK: [interposing] But the sentencing needs to go hand in hand. 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: I see. 2 You 71 I see. 3 That s good. e made a good case for ho 4 contraband as you say is a catalyst for violence in 5 the jails. 6 type of technology that you need to combat that kind 7 of contraband coming in, but DOC already has those 8 scanners, right? 9 scanners. And you advocated along with DOC for the DOC already has those body JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: 10 Yeah, I can speak 11 to that, that we have several body scanners, but 12 because of a limitation in the state legislation, we 13 aren t allo ed to use them. So, 14 actively producing and appreciate all of the support 15 the Council can give us to kind of change that 16 legislation so we can use that technology. e are certainly COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 17 So you were 18 banned from using those scanners because of health 19 law? 20 What-JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: [interposing] Health 21 Law basically requires that any of the use of that 22 machine is by a registered kind of radiologist for 23 medical purposes. 24 25 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: So, are the scanners that you have the ones that, Madam DA you 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 mentioned, the TSA-style body scanners, the Cellsense 3 Plus, are those the scanners you have? JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: 4 72 So, the TSA-type 5 scanners, the body scanners that we have, we have 6 several of those, about seven I believe basically in 7 storage, and as soon as we get the approval to use 8 them, we will use them, but we have them. 9 can t use them. We just 10 DARCEL CLARK: You have other-- 11 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: [interposing] We 12 have other technology. 13 stopping. 14 them, with NYPD constantly exploring other technology 15 that would allow us to identify better-- to better 16 identify contraband movement, but for some of the 17 very small non-metallic scalpels wrapped in the black 18 electrical tape, those are not found by either the 19 magnometers [sic] or by even the Cellsense which are 20 portable things for larger metal devices. 21 can find a cell phone, but the 22 blade. 23 24 25 We certainly are not As the DA said, DARCEL CLARK: type with the-- e e been working with So they can t find a scalpel So they need the TSA-style 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: [interposing] With 2 3 the ionization. 4 DARCEL CLARK: 5 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: With the ionization-[interposing] 6 Council Member, I m just going to interrupt for a 7 second. DARCEL CLARK: to find those things that 8 9 are secreted. 10 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 11 DARCEL CLARK: Because that s ho 12 it is getting in unfortunately. 13 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: 14 15 73 the Right. a lot of In the cavities, can t go in. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: I agree. No , I m 16 going to interrupt for a second, because I think it s 17 unfair to this committee and to the city. 18 than one occasion, the Department of Correction has 19 stood with either the Mayor or the Department of 20 In estigation and said, 21 the process and use these scanners. 22 release that went out at the end of August, beginning 23 of September saying that. 24 25 We are no JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: the same one, Chair. Sorr . On more going to change You had a press Yeah, that s not So, there s a 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 clarification. 3 scanners that emit low-level of ionization, and 4 the 5 in body cavities, to put it out there. 6 other new technologies that the TSA is using now for 7 the purposes of identifying, you know, larger pieces 8 of contraband. They use them in the airports now 9 re er 74 There are previous TSA-style body good at detecting materials particularly here I think ou There are e all seen them where you stand 10 inside a receptacle, you raise your hand and then 11 they kind of whirl around to kind of detect if 12 there s an 13 that we have actually moved forward purchasing. 14 The 15 delivery. 16 talking here about in terms of really identifying 17 that smaller contraband, the scalpel blades and those 18 in ca it , that s the technolog 19 cannot use it, and 20 ways we can use it. 21 image [sic]. Those are the technolog re in manufacturing no . We re hoping for But the body scanners that e er one s e do o n. We e re hoping to kind of figure out DARCEL CLARK: And I attached the 22 legislation from the Assembly where which is enabling 23 legislation that would help override the state law 24 and make an exception so that DOC can use those 25 ionizing body scanning types. 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 2 3 Now, that legislation I looked at, it s a 2015 bill. 4 DARCEL CLARK: 5 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 6 75 Yeah. Is there a new-- is there a new bill in this new session? 7 DARCEL CLARK: We hope so. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: Okay. 9 DARCEL CLARK: 10 be pushing for. 11 agenda. I kno 12 That s hat e re going to That s part of our legislative it s part of DOC s. JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: We ll keep orking 13 with them. 14 of concerns the 15 on the language to make sure any concerns they have 16 we address, but it gives us the fundamental ability 17 to use it to detect for these contraband and weapons. 18 19 Obviously we want to meet whatever kind ha e, but e ll certainl negotiate DARCEL CLARK: But they have them there. How many did you say you have? 20 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: 21 DARCEL CLARK: Seven of them there 22 Seven. already? How long have they been sitting there? 23 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: 24 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 25 that type of medical assistance? For a while now. And so TSA has 1 76 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: 2 So the federal-- 3 so, as an irony, the federal government is allowed to 4 use these. 5 Manhattan the 6 not within the city jails because of a state 7 regulation. In the actual federal facility in COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 8 9 e are Okay, so the federal government-JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: [interposing] Yes, 10 11 re allo ed to use these, but is allowed. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: Is allowed to do 13 so, okay. 14 mentioned, DA, about preserving crime scenes and the 15 difficulty that presents at Rikers, and you-- has DOC 16 increased the video surveillance as a way of helping 17 the evidence preservation? 18 Sounds very strange, but anyway. DARCEL CLARK: The video surveillance is 19 there and it s 20 need the physical layout to keep everyone out of the 21 crime scene so that the evidence can be collected. 22 The video will show what happened, and hopefully in 23 real-time like a 24 25 er You helpful, but at the same time ar room here e could ou atch hat s happening as it s happening to kno , oh, ou could see the inmate put the particular contraband, 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 you know, under the bed or under the windowsill, 3 something like that. 4 we did that in real-time. 5 and those 6 the 7 contraband, 8 the forces are this: 9 when something happens and things are, you know, 77 So, the video will show that if Somebod s atching it, ho are responding tell them, Look under indo sill, that s where they put the that would help, but at the same time, DOC has to maintain order. So 10 chaotic, they have to freeze the place. 11 important thing is to secure the inmates, clear the 12 area so that they can get back to work. 13 works against-- Well, that COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: [interposing] 14 15 The most Evidence. 16 DARCEL CLARK: DOC and DA s Office 17 collecting the e idence that e need. So there s 18 technology that can help with some of those things as 19 well. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: You-- 21 DARCEL CLARK: [interposing] These 22 scanners that will scan the whole room, make a 3D 23 model of the area so that, 24 exactly what it looks like. It preserves it so we 25 know exactly where everything is. ou kno , e ll kno But you know, at 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 the same time we need the boots on the ground, the 3 technology, the video all happening at once. 78 4 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: Council Member, if 5 ou don t mind, the department also set up its own 6 evidence collection section to kind of work with the 7 DA on this, and I think the DA is exactly right. 8 There s a tension on tr ing to make sure that 9 end any type of lock-down in a certain area to kind e can 10 of resume operations so other inmates aren t impacted 11 by an incident, but we are working with them trying 12 to collect kind of recommendations. While we have 13 improved some technology and certainly have dedicated 14 staff to kind of joint training with the Bronx DA, 15 e re al a s looking for more. So e re tr ing to 16 work together to kind of basically break past that 17 tension. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: So, are you 19 training your staff to do evidence collection at the 20 same time that the 21 re tr ing to quell a situation? JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: So, we-- basically 22 dedicated staff. So hen the re in there the re 23 focused on the evidence collection as opposed to the 24 facility focused on kind of maintaining order and 25 separating out kind of inmates from other inmates. 1 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Council Member, if 2 3 79 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES you could wrap up. COUNCIL MEMBER GENTILE: 4 Yes, okay. I 5 appreciate that. You have a lot of challenges here 6 and you re doing a great job. 7 I appreciate it. ou er much. Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Council Member 8 9 Thank Deutsch? COUNCIL MEMBER DEUTSCH: 10 Thank you, good 11 morning. My first question is, first of all you 12 mentioned that Rikers Island is under the 13 jurisdiction of the Bronx, right? 14 DARCEL CLARK: Yes. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER DEUTSCH: Is this-- when 16 crimes occur in Rikers Island, does this get included 17 in part of NYPD crime stats? DARCEL CLARK: 18 19 to that. 20 sure. 21 I m not sure of the ans er I d ha e to get back to COUNCIL MEMBER DEUTSCH: ou on it. I m not Do you have an 22 independent crime stat for Rikers Island? 23 talking about so many crimes that are occurring on 24 Rikers Island. 25 So do We re ou ha e an thing that s 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 independent that-- of any type of crime stats 3 occurring throughout the year in Rikers Island? 80 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: The DOC certainly 4 5 collects data on kind of everything from use of 6 force, inmate fights and other crimes. 7 in estigations and arrests, that s information 8 kind of jointly shared with the Bronx DA, and they 9 have more on the actual arrest and kind of 10 In terms of e dispositions of those. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER DEUTSCH: 12 DARCEL CLARK: [interposing] We can get 13 Oh-- the numbers-- 14 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: [interposing] Yeah. 15 DARCEL CLARK: that we have. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER DEUTSCH: So, in-- first 17 of all, if you do have crime stats, is that made 18 public? 19 DARCEL CLARK: 20 COUNCIL MEMBER DEUTSCH: 21 22 23 24 25 I don t kno . So, in the NYPD- JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: [interposing] The violence indicators are certainly made public-COUNCIL MEMBER DEUTSCH: City Department-- In the New York 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: I m not sure e actl 2 3 81 which one-COUNCIL MEMBER DEUTSCH: [interposing] you 4 5 have every month actually they print out the crime 6 stats, and then they also have CompStat. 7 TrafficStat. 8 actually speak to the correction officers to see what 9 better tools they need to have more accountability? They have Do you have like RikersStat where you 10 It s that, ou kno , e re coming to a hearing here 11 discussing the crimes happening in Rikers Island and 12 then we keep on saying consecutive sentencing, but by 13 the time you get the consecutive sentencing, people 14 are already injured. 15 prevention. 16 by understanding what tools are needed, and I think 17 by publicizing the crime stats, letting this city, 18 letting the world know how many crimes are happening 19 in Rikers Island, then this could get exposed of how 20 many crimes are happening, how many people are 21 getting injured, how many inmates are getting 22 injured, how many officers are getting injured and 23 are not coming home at night and end up in a 24 hospital, how many crimes are being reported within 25 Rikers Island. So we need to do more We need to take more preventive measures I know like in CUNY colleges now, 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 which I had meetings in my district, and any crimes 3 happening in CUNY should be reported to 911 as well. 4 So, if something happens in Rikers and does not get 5 reported to 911, it s not part of the numbers. 6 not part of the accountability of what is happening 7 within Rikers Island. 8 9 er 82 It s So, consecutive sentencing is nice to scare, a scare tactic. going to commit a crime, then There s a ne To sa if ou re ou re going to be 10 sentenced. 11 need to have accountability. 12 what better tools the offices in Rikers Island need, 13 and these are people that have families that need to 14 get home to the families. We need to understand The re in danger e en as e can see. 16 targets, as 17 need to have these stats publicized. 18 stats. 19 make sure these offices are safe. 20 of the ideas that I have that I wanted to bring out 21 at toda e hen the e 15 22 E en sheriff in to n, but re not at e seen the last fe ork the months. til a hearing to discuss this. So We need to So these are some e should not ait This should be 23 something that if it s-- we have to speak to the 24 state. 25 e We need to have We need to hold accountability. s hearing, and again, re We need to speak to the City for more 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 resources. 3 RikerStat. Let us hear from the officers by having DARCEL CLARK: 4 5 comment. 6 something that, 7 into, and 9 If Thank you for that e don t ha e that, I think it ou re correct, that certainl as e should look e ll talk about that. JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: 8 83 And we have an internal process called Teams that is 10 basically a version of the DOC kind of CompStat 11 process to kind of publicize data. 12 proactively to try to identify ways in which we 13 should focus on different facilities, different 14 crimes, different gang affiliations, but actually the 15 recommendations are all taken very seriously. 16 you very much. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER DEUTSCH: 18 numbers part of what we have here? 19 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: We use it Thank Are those So, there are both- 20 - in the Ma or s monthl reports, Management Reports, 21 there are data. 22 are some DOC data in the CompStat data as well, and 23 we obviously provide that, whatever requested, as 24 well. So, there are different avenues by which to 25 publicize some of that data. In CompStat I was told that there 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 COUNCIL MEMBER DEUTSCH: 3 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 4 Thank you. Council Member Lancman for questions? 5 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 6 DARCEL CLARK: 7 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: Morning. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 9 84 ask ou h Good morning. Good morning. I just want to ou re so-- you seem so committed to the 10 idea of global dispositions because it seems as if 11 waiting for the underlying case to get resolved and 12 your case, the underlying case all to get resolved in 13 the same time and wrapped up in a bow, would, from 14 the testimon 15 intuitively, make it more difficult for you to 16 resolve the cases quicker and also make it more 17 difficult to get those consecutive sentences or 18 different sentences that are as I think you correctly 19 identified, the key to really giving some teeth to 20 this effort. 21 at your paced based on the evidence you have which is 22 probably in many of these circumstances a lot less 23 complicated and difficult to bring to a state of 24 readiness, and then let the other underlying case do 25 its thing at its pace. that I m hearing as Wh can t ell as just ou just prosecute our case Why tie yourself to that? 1 DARCEL CLARK: 2 Councilman Lancman, that s 3 from our mouth to God s ears, oka ? 4 day. This Rikers Island Prosecution Bureau is 5 85 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES orking er hard. I do that e er We re indicting the cases. 6 getting the disco er 7 trial. 8 side to it. There s the defense side, and 9 get a defense attorney knowing the Rikers case is 10 more recent, the other case is older, always the 11 concentration is on dealing with the older cases 12 first. 13 I m ans ering read . 14 need to wait for Brooklyn, or Queens, Manhattan or 15 Staten Island or an bod 16 ready. 17 We re read We re read out. We re We re ans ering read for trial, but there s another That s one thing that I Give me a judge. to go. ill tr else. hen e ha e to deal ou ith. the case. I don t When I m read , I m I got my assistants here. Can t get it done. COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 18 And is the 19 reason that the courts will not say to the defense 20 counsel, 21 read . I m putting it on for trial. 22 fundamentally an unwillingness on the part of the 23 courts to accept the fact that 24 the case, that s right? 25 You for e got our other case. This case is Is it a ou re ready to try 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES DARCEL CLARK: 2 I don t kno 86 if it s a 3 fundamental unwillingness, but you need a judge to be 4 able to tr 5 the defense may ask for an adjournment, you need to 6 ha e a judge that s read 7 shortage of the judges as well. it. to tr it. We ha e a COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 8 9 So e en though I m ready to go and So, I do want to drill down on that, because you know, my other hat 10 other than being a member of these two, being Courts 11 and Legal Services. 12 DARCEL CLARK: Of course. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: And is it a 14 matter of just a shortage of judges or is it a matter 15 of getting the Bronx judge to push the defense 16 counsel to sa , 17 Brookl n or Queens does. 18 us. 19 month. No, e re not aiting for what There s a li e case before It s read . It s getting tried ne t eek, ne t DARCEL CLARK: Yeah, I mean, 20 21 un illingness, I don t kno , but it s just not 22 happening. 23 look, I sat there 13 of my 16 years as a judge. You 24 don t kno 25 case first. If there s a judge that s read ho man to-- times I said let s do the Rikers I don t care hat s happening in the 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 other counties, but you have to have a judge that is 3 willing to do that. 4 capabilit 5 read , but there s a culture in the courts 6 unfortunately sometimes that the older case goes 7 first. 87 And you have to have the of tr ing the case hen it s actuall 8 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: Okay, I-- 9 DARCEL CLARK: [interposing] But it s not 10 the right thing, and I m not for that. 11 the case. You give me a court, you know, you give me 12 a judge that s reall 13 assistants that ll be read illing to tr to tr it, I ha e it. COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 14 I will try Oka , so that s 15 something that we can work toward on our end as well. 16 Thank you. 17 DARCEL CLARK: Thank you. 18 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Thank you. I have one last 19 question. I m not sure if m Co-chair has. So, 20 District Attorney, do you believe that process is 21 much better now for gathering evidence? 22 complaints about how the DOC is gathering this 23 evidence that you need for your prosecutions, and is 24 there stuff that they could do that will help to 25 improve the process? You have any 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES DARCEL CLARK: 2 88 Well, I think it s much 3 better than it was because the fact that they have 4 created the Evidence Collection Unit 5 there before. 6 improvement. 7 able to, you know, actually solidify a real, you 8 know, effective type of evidence collection process. 9 And hich asn t So that s in and of itself is an They need the technology to really be ou kno , e re looking to all the technologies 10 that s there that can assist them in being able to do 11 it. 12 not onl 13 e idence that I m going to use at the trials. 14 has to be, you know, a process where, you know, 15 there s no taint on the 16 collected. 17 policies that are there that make sure that there s 18 integrity in the collection of the evidence. Because remember, that evidence collection, we need it to be collected, but that s the 19 20 a So, it that the e idence is You know, there has to be procedures and CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Council Member Williams? COUNCIL MEMBER WILLIAMS: Thank you very 21 22 much. Thank you, DA, and thank you, Corrections, for 23 being here as well. 24 just want to start because I know that just the 25 country itself puts itself out there as a beacon, but I appreciate your testimony. I 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 it s al a s troubling to me 3 iolence in this countr . hat happens 89 ith It doesn t happen in man 4 other places that we align ourselves with, 5 particularly gun violence. 6 percent of the 7 of the prison population. 8 who are in prison in the world in this country, we 9 ha e a ie The country is about five orld s population, about 25 percent So, for one in four people of prison that I think doesn t help us 10 rehabilitate anyone. 11 are humane prisons across the country that people 12 look at 13 here the That always troubles me. There iolence doesn t happen the same a , and I think it s just our ie of iolence, our 14 view of prison helps that move along. So, the more 15 we make it-- people don t 16 humanity when we thinking of prison. 17 take that away, the more we crush and push down, and 18 the more people are going to push back. 19 truism. 20 violence in prison, a danger to the other prisoners 21 and obviously a danger to officers, correction 22 officers 23 harmed as 24 that context. 25 the same thing o er and o er, it doesn t ant to think of humane-So, the more we That is a What also is true is that we have the ho are there and ell. e don t ant their-- them So, I m-- my questions are just in I think the more we keep trying to do ork, and 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 people are hurt, but 3 because this has been going on for so long it s hard 4 to push a button to make it stop and start over 5 again. 6 dream world. 7 we can just start all over again today? 90 e re stuck in a quagmire But I do want to just for a second be in a What would a prison look like to you if 8 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: So, just one of the 9 things that we had been trying to push for, sir, is 10 to change that culture, to move it towards a more 11 humane kind of area where a one-size-fits-all does 12 not apply, that we focus a lot more on kind of the 13 programming, the training to the officers, the 14 engagement of the officers to empower them to kind of 15 do their jobs, but also to give them a safe space 16 while also providing to anybody in our custody and 17 care kind of the necessary programming tools and kind 18 of just disposition to really understand exactly what 19 the 20 once they leave. 21 we have dedicated a lot of resources to kind of 22 training our officers in different tools so they 23 understand kind of the changing population in our 24 jails. 25 have a rising gang population. re going through and hat the can prepare for Obviously, while we focus on this We have a rising mentally ill population. So, both on just a We 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 lot more treatment and coordination with H&H and 3 health and mental health physicians has been helpful; 4 the hiring of kind of both partnerships with the 5 Department of Education as well as other agencies to 6 ensure job skills or trained inmates, and then 7 directly connected outside, but also again, focusing 8 on the officers and giving them the tools that they 9 need both to kind of deal with kind of a majority of 91 10 the population that don t pro ide, as 11 of the violence and separating and really being able 12 to identify those that remain problematic and giving 13 kind of the proper separation so the 14 you know, unduly influence the rest of the population 15 with kind of whatever issues are coming from the 16 streets, 17 kind of some of the networks that the DA was talking 18 about in terms of contraband. 19 ou said, a lot don t kind of, hether it s gang kind of tensions or just CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: We were just 20 informed that we have to be out of here by 1:00 p.m., 21 so 22 to move the hearing along. 23 24 25 e ll gi e ou a little bit more time, but COUNCIL MEMBER WILLIAMS: have been good to know so I can-- Alright. e ha e Would 1 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: [interposing] Yeah, 2 3 92 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES you can wrap it up. COUNCIL MEMBER WILLIAMS: 4 So, I have 5 another question. 6 want to k now what stops us from flipping the switch 7 now. 8 difficult time accepting that 9 harshl puniti e to e act, 10 exact. We have to change our mind frame. 11 frame of crime and punishment is one of the main 12 problems, I think, in trying to deal with this. 13 I d like to know 14 Rikers should be closed. 15 con ersation. 16 So I want to just sum up. I just I know that in general the population has a ou don t ha e to be as hate er ou re tr ing to Our mind So, hat s the problem with-- I believe That s another I m not asking that no . I m asking hat s stopping us from doing it more humanel , and 17 my second question that I was going to get to is, 18 people who are close to the ground have told me that 19 some of the violence spiked actually when they 20 started separating the street crews, because at least 21 when they were intermingled there was some kind of 22 balance, but when we separated them there was more 23 from each side that would increase because when 24 the 25 that particular street crew, and that may have re separated, ou ha e to become a member of 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 increased some of the violence, and I wanted to know 3 if you had heard anything. JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: 4 sure. I mean, two 5 separate points. 6 an thing s stopping us, and I don t think that 7 actually trying to prevent it. 8 9 e 93 On the first one, I don t think e re I think actually what e done o er the last t o or three ears is to focus primarily on actually moving forward the path 10 of creating more humane and safe jails. 11 certainly had early indicators that the trends are 12 moving in the way that we want them to, in kind of 13 units where we have restarted, literally taking 14 people out of entire units, retrained the officers, 15 provided new programing, provided new technology to 16 allow for kind of a more quieted environment, and 17 then putting inmates back in. 18 in violence up to 70 percent on the uses of force, 90 19 percent on kind of serious assaults on staff. 20 those are efforts that we are implementing now. 21 have hired dramatically program counselors and 22 kind of ended the practice of punitive segregation 23 for 16 to 21-year-olds, and certainly created a 24 larger model of progressive discipline that allows 25 people to kind of be addressed-- I mean, basically be We We e e had reductions So, We e e 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 disciplined for the action they took. 3 impose one final sanction for anybody regardless of 4 what they did. 5 and I think the department agrees with you and so 6 does the Administration, that 7 and 8 forward. 9 there are tensions about what we do with our gang 94 Not to, again, So, first of all, I agree with you, e ha en t been aiting. e shouldn t be We e been mo ing Secondarily, on your ground truth. I think 10 affiliations. 11 necessarily mean separate and isolate within one 12 housing area all of gang members for one-- sorry, one 13 different gang affiliation. 14 try to isolate the small population that is gang 15 related or have a particular propensity for violence 16 and moving away from the general population. 17 they are in that we do try very hard to balance 18 different organi ations so that there isn t that kind 19 of ownership by one gang which, you know, promotes a 20 lot-- 21 When I sa aiting separation, I don t What I meant is just to Once COUNCIL MEMBER WILLIAMS: [interposing] 22 Thank you. I kno 23 try to-- I generally try not to use the word gang. 24 know you have to-- 25 I m out of time, but thank ou. I I 1 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: [interposing] I 2 3 kno , I m sorry. COUNCIL MEMBER WILLIAMS: because people 4 5 use gang. JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: 6 7 It s the classification [sic]. COUNCIL MEMBER WILLIAMS: 8 9 95 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES They take away the humanity of the person, so I just try not to do 10 that. But thank you to the Chairs. 11 being here. 12 and the more we can make people realize that doing 13 this in a humane way is not soft on crime, I think 14 the better off 15 Thank you for My hope is that we can continue with us, e ll be. Thank CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: ou. Thank you very much, 16 Council Member Williams. 17 we were joined by Council Member Paul Vallone. 18 just had one final question. 19 who are here to testify today. 20 we are having around 16 and 17-year-olds and the 21 criminal prosecution of 16 and 17-year-olds. Is 22 there an update that you guys could provide? I know 23 DOC has been working on a number of proposals, I will 24 say, absent of state legislation. 25 I also want to acknowledge I I know we have others The conversation that Can you give us a 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 sense of 3 year-olds, and if there are any proposed changes? hat e re currentl 96 doing with 16 and 17- JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: I think as you know, 4 5 Council Member, hat 6 focus attention on the adolescents. 7 more schooling. 8 facility and treated them different, to give you the 9 short answer. We e e done certainl is tr to We have provided e separated them into their own In terms of the forward progress, we 10 had provided funding for design studies of facilities 11 that could be dedicated to the adolescents off-island 12 so that we could treat them appropriately and also 13 create space for them to hopefully divert and make 14 sure the 15 jail. 16 put in, and I know that the planning people are 17 currently designed-- working to figure out what the 18 best design is. I don t ha e an update more than 19 that. So, those talks are ongoing. CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 20 21 don t e en end up in the actual cells of a The funding was Okay. So, you said that there have been sites identified off the island? 22 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: Yes. 23 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Okay. 24 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: [interposing] And 25 the re orking through-- I think-- 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: I have an idea of 2 3 where they are. JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: Well, I think that 4 5 the 6 former ACS sites at Horizon. re orking on the design. CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 7 8 97 The e looked at That are underutilized, right? JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: 9 Yeah. So, 10 underutilized, and basically what a redesign would be 11 to kind of take care of an adolescent population 12 while still providing them all the education and 13 programming 14 the island. e e tried to implement here at DOC on CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 15 Okay. So, I guess my 16 final statement before I close is, identifying all of 17 the challenges, the investments, the millions and 18 millions of dollars that e e poured into both the 19 DA s office and DOC that e ill continue to pour in, 20 violence is increasing in terms of on Rikers Island, 21 right? 22 So, is it safe to say that violence is increasing on 23 Rikers Island or that s not true? 24 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: I 25 Because e re arresting more indi iduals. ouldn t go there. I actually think that what the Bronx DA has been 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 touting has been 3 work on prevention. 4 actually take critical action right away after an 5 incident, the more it helps us to be able to kind of 6 articulate that there are repercussions to their 7 actions. 8 focused on a lot of broad changes, and actually are 9 early indicators, you know, just for the calendar 10 er fa orable. 98 We re tr ing to The more they can arrest and Furthermore, as a department ear of 16 compared to calendar e e been ear of 15. We e 11 seen dramatic decreases in several areas where any 12 real violence that resulted in serious injury, 13 whether that s uses of force, inmate fights or 14 assaults on staff, all of those has declined year 15 over year from 15 to 16. 16 way to go, and I would never want to tell this 17 council that, you know, our job is done, there have 18 been a lot of decreases in those serious incidences 19 that resulted in any kind of harm or injury. 20 So, while we have a long CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Okay. In the 21 serious incidents, did you include stabbings and 22 slashings as well? 23 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: So, stabbings and 24 slashings, let me be very clear, are up. 25 up, and one of the big issues, and e They are e been pushing 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 for, kind of the body scanners and change in state 3 legislations to be able to find the weapons, that we 4 can t-- we just cannot find right now because we 5 don t ha e the technolog to do so. CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Okay. 6 99 And I guess 7 that s probably the alarming part, and you know, I 8 really hope that we will all be aggressive this year 9 to see if we can get, you know, state law changed. 10 The relationships we have, we cannot continue to 11 allow the propensity of violence and contraband that 12 are getting onto the island because we lack the 13 technolog . 14 We have to do better. 15 into this year for us in the Council, we hope that 16 you will give us your suggestion and your input on 17 ways that we can support you, ways that we can 18 continue to reduce violence in many of the categories 19 ou We re the greatest cit e described. in this countr . So, I guess, you know, moving The slashings and the stabbings, 20 we have got to deal with that. I mean, the pictures 21 and the images that I 22 disturbing, and we know that most of the staff on 23 Rikers Island just like the inmate population are 24 people of color, and so that s reall 25 me, and most of, you know, civilian and uniform staff e seen and the people is disturbing for 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 are women. 3 We have to protect everyone on the island, and I 4 know, you know, we have a commitment and we say it, 5 but we have to make sure that it happens. 6 and everyone that sits in Albany with a title, 7 everyone has to realize 8 our family members and our friends and colleagues, 9 and you know, we have to give them the assurance and 100 So, we have to protect everyone there. hat s happening. e re protecting them. The voices These are 10 the confidence that For those 11 of us that represent districts like mine where my 12 residents want these bad apples off of the streets, 13 someone has to take care of them, and when they get 14 to the island the 15 and so I get that. 16 conversation, and trust me, like you I struggle with 17 it. 18 talk to the everyday, you know, resident that 19 sometimes does not want to come forward, because if 20 the come for ard the 21 The re fearful of retaliation. 22 jeopardy. 23 know, we have to give them assurance, and it cannot 24 just be lip service. 25 I thank you for the work you re doing, and certainly re sometimes e en more dangerous, It s a I talk to the NYPD. er sensitive I talk to DOC staff. I re fearful of their life. Their status is in So these are all the things that, you It has to be real service. So, 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 we will continue to have further conversations on 3 this issue. 4 you, Jeff, and to our DA. 5 ork 101 Thank you to the Commissioner and to ou re doing. Thank you DA Clark for the I hope ou continue to hire more 6 staff, and obviously there s a need for it, but thank 7 you for your work to you and your team. We appreciate 8 you being here. JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: Thank you. 9 10 DARCEL CLARK: Thank you. 11 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: I too am grateful 12 for the District Attorney being here today and for 13 your e tensi e testimon , for the 14 doing on Rikers Island and altogether and in your 15 work as the Bronx District Attorney. 16 Department of Corrections, I don t think from the 17 numbers I m looking at, 18 there, you re more likel 19 at an increase of nearl 20 Inmate fights are up from 4,971 to over 6,000, 21 increase of greater than 20 percent. 22 appears that uniformed staff are not getting injured 23 as much as the 24 25 e re no hich ork that ou re as for the ou re-- if ou re to get stabbed or slashed 20 percent. That s serious. So, while it ere, it s still far too high, and going to transition into hearing from the correction officers and wardens who actually are 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 working there. 3 on behalf-- Chief of Staff on behalf of the 4 Commissioner, and this conversation certainly is not 5 over. 102 I do appreciate Jeff, you being here 6 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: Great. 7 DARCEL CLARK: 8 JEFF THAMKITTIKASEM: 9 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Now, before we move here Thank you. Thank you. 10 to part B e hear Council Member Lancman s 11 intro 1373A, 12 Officers Union, and we have Elias Husamudeen who is 13 the President. 14 the legislative Chairman, and then from the Assistant 15 Deput 16 probably said that wrong, so I apologize in advance. 17 And also, we did receive the testimony of the 18 Correction Officers-- we have your written testimony, 19 so in the interest of time we hope that you could be 20 brief, and open up after summarizing your testimony 21 for questions. 22 Corrections Commissioner s testimon 23 the record. 24 if you could please begin your testimony, and again, 25 if you could summarize the written testimony in the e re going to hear from the Correction We have Mr. Thomas Farrell, who is Warden s Association e ha e Faisal Zouhbi. We also have the Department of I that is part of So, Mr. Husamudeen, when you are ready, 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 interest of time as we have to be out of this room 3 within an hour. ELIAS HUSAMUDEEN: 4 Thank you. 103 Good 5 morning, Chairwoman Crowley, Chairwoman Gibson and 6 members of the Oversight Committee. 7 Husamudeen, and I m the President of the Correction 8 Officers 9 enforcement union in the City of New York. My name is Elias Association, the second largest law Our 10 members, as you know, provide care, custody and 11 control of 8,000 inmates daily in over 60,000 inmates 12 just last year alone. 13 the topic of prosecuting jail violence. 14 begin with my testimony, I would like to express my 15 gratitude to the Mayor and the Office of Labor 16 Relations for negotiating with our union and 17 incorporating contract, the provision for a Rikers 18 Island Arrest Unit Bureau, something that 19 fighting for for 20 District Attorney Darcel Clark. 21 District Attorney Darcel Clark for committing vital 22 resources to the rearrests and prosecution of inmates 23 and visitors who commit crime on Rikers Island. 24 also appreciate the Department of Corrections 25 commitment to taking seriously the rearrests of ears. We are here today to discuss Before I That s o erseen b e e been the Bron We also thank Bronx ne We 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 inmates who assault correction officers. 3 not least, we appreciate your Oversight Committee and 4 the committee members for always keeping correction 5 officers in the forefront. 6 cit 7 over 800 inmates who have yet to be arrested for 8 their crimes committed against staff and other 9 inmates on Rikers Island. 104 Last, but I want to admonish our s criminal justice system which has a backlog of There should also be no 10 delay in prosecuting these inmates, and I am here 11 today to call on your committee to immediately look 12 into what is holding up this process. 13 a right to know and the union has a right to know. 14 The public also has a right to know about the facts 15 concerning the ramification of major policy changes 16 that Commissioner Ponte, the mayor, members of the 17 City Council and the Board of Corrections have hailed 18 all in the name of progress reform. 19 forms the basis of the term 20 would seem that reform measures supported by this 21 council and the mayor would be generating positive 22 outcomes following the elimination of punitive 23 segregations for inmates 21 years old and under last 24 October. 25 certain Council Members and members of the Board of The public has If progress progressi e, then it For a while, on the one hand this may-- and 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 Corrections want to brag about reform, the violence 3 continues to rise. 4 account there was an 18 percent rise in the number of 5 inmate-on-inmate slashings last year over the 6 previous year. 7 of jail 8 Council and the Corrections Commissioner and the 9 Board of Corrections have not been able to bring In fact, b 105 the Department s o n There are three distinct indicators iolence that the Ma or s Office, the Cit 10 down. One of those categories is serious injury to 11 inmates, which is inmate-on-inmate violence. 12 second one is the inmate-on-inmate stabbings. 13 third one is on the inmate-on-inmate slashing, and 14 now we have a new category which is the slashing and 15 stabbing of correction officers, because prior to 16 three 17 last three years under this Administration, three of 18 the four categories continued to increase. The reason 19 why they have not been able to reduce the numbers in 20 these categories is because of the insane policy of 21 eliminating punitive segregation for 16 to 21-year- 22 olds, which existed three years ago and because they 23 do not understand the culture of jail and 24 specifically Rikers Island. 25 jail violence while the reality only demonstrates the ears ago e didn t ha e that categor . The The In the Hailing reform to reduce 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 complete opposite that jail violence continues to 3 soar is nothing short of a systemic hypocrisy. 4 blunt, Ma or s Office is guilt 5 Certain members of this council are guilty of 6 hypocrisy as is the Board of Corrections and the 7 Corrections Commissioner who are entrusted to 8 prosecute crime. For example, just a couple of weeks 9 ago 35 individuals were arrested in Brooklyn for 106 To be of h pocris . 10 violent crimes, weapon possession, drug possession 11 and gang violence. 12 District Attorney determined that these 35 13 individuals were too violent and have too much 14 potential for violence to remain on the streets of 15 New York. 16 remanded in the same cases. 17 justice policy makers have decided that to protect 18 the general public from these violent predators and 19 put them on Rikers Island in the custody of who else, 20 New York City Correction Officers. 21 Assistant Police Chief James Essing [sp?], these are 22 notorious gang members who have terrorized Brooklyn 23 for 24 violence and drugs. 25 involved in shooting incidents, 17 have been arrested ears. Everyone from the police to the As a result, they were given high bails or That s So all of the criminal hat gangs usuall According to do ith guns, Sixteen of them have been 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 for weapon possession, and 25 have been arrested for 3 robberies. 4 makers, City Hall, City Council, the Mayor, these 5 same policy makers have stripped correction officers 6 of all the critical tools necessary to maintain 7 safety and security within the confines of the City 8 Jail. 9 Councilman Jumaane and whoever else that just came 107 At the same time, these same policy These reform-minded law makers such as 10 here to make an appearance and leave, these same law 11 makers make-- these reform-minded law makers place 12 these violent predators in our custody and then 13 accuse us of making them more 14 incarcerated. 15 to be too violent to remain free on our streets, but 16 yet they are apparently not violent enough to 17 segregate inside the jails from other inmates in 18 general population. 19 and policy makers will no longer be tolerated by the 20 Correction Officers 21 e iolent once the re They have declared these individuals This hypocrisy from law makers Bene olent Association. As e con e ed to the constituents of Council Member 22 Danny Dromm in Council District 25 last week, you 23 will not and cannot continue to demonize and 24 scapegoat correction officers for the policy failures 25 of those who have been elected to keep the city safe. 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 Unlike the police, the District Attorney, the judges, 3 the court officers, and even the Commissioner and all 4 of you sitting here, we have to live with these 5 violent predators not just for a few hours, not for a 6 few minutes, but for literally 24 hours a day, seven 7 days a week, 365 days a year. For us this is not just 8 some theoretic progressive exercise. 9 and gentleman, is life and death. 108 This, ladies Kalif Brower [sp?] 10 was arrested and jailed for allegedly stealing a 11 backpack that was never found. 12 for more than three years. 13 the victim of a failed criminal justice system. 14 was given-- I m just about done. 15 high bail and inadequate legal representation. 16 eventually was released from Rikers Island, and two 17 years later tragically killed himself. 18 officers, as has become the norm, are the scapegoat 19 and the demonized for his death, and that did not 20 even occur while he was in our custody. Neither the 21 judges, the District Attorney, the public defender, 22 nor the Department of Mental Health are responsible 23 in an 24 to death, only the correction officers. 25 ladies and gentleman, is the worst form of hypocrisy. a He remained on Rikers He was by all accounts He He as gi en a very He Correction shape or form for this man s tragic spiral This again, 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 The Governor of the State of New York hails the close 3 of over a dozen state prisons and pushes to pass 4 legislation to try to stop trying 16 and 17-year-olds 5 as adult, but 6 system fails to remove inmates after they are 7 sentenced for 25 years to life for murder, like the 8 inmate 9 left on Rikers Island and end up assaulting 109 et, the state s criminal justice ho cut his mother s head off, and instead are 10 correction officers and other inmates. This union 11 has taken many steps to meet with the Mayor and his 12 staff, including Elizabeth Glazer, the Director of 13 Criminal Justice Services, and recommended many 14 proposals to reduce jail violence and make our 15 facilities safer. 16 Attorneys and requested processes for the DA s to 17 expedite cases such as inmate John Doe who faces 18 charges in a Brooklyn case from 2011-- he s still on 19 Rikers Island-- a 2011 gun case in addition to the 20 numerous assault cases that he s accumulated against 21 correction officers and other inmates. 22 Doe and other inmates like him know full well that 23 they will continue to be hold at Rikers instead of 24 being sent to a state facility because the Brooklyn 25 DA is not going to try a case as explained to you by We have met with the District Inmate John 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 the Bronx DA until the Bronx DA tries the Rikers 3 Island cases. 4 infractions at Rikers for this very reason. 5 play the game, and unfortunately all too often they 6 are winning. 7 an end to this immediately. 8 to not-- 9 h pocris . 110 The inmates routinely commit They These committees must find a way to put e aren t here toda We are here today solely solel to point out We re here to propose solutions that we 10 sincerely hope will be adopted and incorporated into 11 the prosecution of jail violence. 12 Governor Cuomo has proposed eliminating the 13 prosecution of 16 and 17-year-old juveniles that are 14 tried as adults. 15 is one of the two states that still tries 16 and 17- 16 year-olds as adults, and if this Administration is 17 desirous of leading the nation in reform, then why 18 not lead the nation in rolling back this policy and 19 keep the adolescents off of Rikers Island completely. 20 Secondly, in a recent report of New York 21 Comptroller s Office it 22 132,000 dollars on each incarcerated inmate. 23 spend more than 300 million to incarcerate the 24 adolescents alone. 25 budget focused on community youth programs to offer Recently, again, We couldn t agree more. Wh as re ealed that isn t the cit Ne York e spend We s upcoming 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 troubled adolescents and those at risk with punitive 3 alternatives to life behind bars? 4 the judges in this city-- because the judges in this 5 city seem more intent on political activism than on 6 law and order, we need to ensure that the most 7 dangerous criminals who repeat their crimes in jail 8 face minimum sentencing with consecutive sentences 9 imposed on the orst of the orst. 111 Third, because of We re not talking 10 about petty misdemeanors and larceny and minor drug 11 offenses. 12 and murderers who prey on our officers and the other 13 inmates. 14 over 275 million dollars on overtime, an unbudgeted 15 post that has needlessl 16 safety and wasted valuable resources. 17 towards ending the backlog of the 800-plus inmates 18 waiting for their cases to be prosecuted. 19 recently iPads have been given to the new recruits of 20 the Correction Academ . 21 with smartphones and iPads and the necessary 22 technology to detect weapons and monitor gang 23 behavior and fight jail crime the way it should be 24 fought in the year 2017. 25 correction officer with individual gas masks, the We re talking about gang members, rapists Fourth, the Department has needlessly spent jeopardi ed our members Put this money Fifth, Let s pro ide all officers Sixth, provide every single 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 same way stab-resistant 3 just about finished, ma am. 4 not least of all, we need to change the way we talk 5 about the use-of-force incident. 6 97,000 people in New York City were arrested by the 7 NYPD, and of those arrests 60,000 of them were placed 8 in our custody of correction officers. 9 jail reform debate references 8,000 inmates and ests are allocated. 112 I m Finall , and certainl Last year, some Most of the 10 factors in use of force incident within the smaller 11 figure which is misleading. 12 rate of 538 per 1,000 inmates is calculated using 13 60,000 figure, it is obvious that correction officers 14 have performed exceptionally well in maintaining 15 care, custody and control of the DOC facilities. 16 Around the country and as close as New Jersey, 17 correction officers are murdered every day in the 18 line of dut 19 happened here in over 40 years, but the ill-advised 20 policy changes that have been recently implemented by 21 the Mayor, the City Council, their Oversight 22 Committees, the Board of Correction, and the 23 Correction Commissioner makes that risk all the more 24 greater, and as correction officers, ma am, 25 it every freaking day; we feel it. When the use-of-force at the hands of inmates. That hasn t e feel 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Understood. 2 3 113 Thank you. ELIAS HUSAMUDEEN: 4 If you are going to 5 impose radical reform, then that reform must be 6 anchored by a secure system that put law and order 7 ahead of politics with no exception. 8 officers must not continue to be demonized when these 9 reforms fail. Correction We are not shrinking from our 10 responsibility. We are asking for the shared 11 accountability among all the stakeholders in our 12 criminal justice system, and let this hearing serve 13 as our notice that we will continue to hold everyone 14 from this point forward accountable to ensure justice 15 is served behind bars just as it is on the street. 16 I m happ to ans er our-- CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: [interposing] Thank 17 18 you, Mr. Husamudeen. And anyone else on the panel 19 looking to testify or just here to answer questions? 20 Oh, you have-FAISAL ZOUHBI: 21 [interposing] My name is 22 Faisal Zouhbi. I m the President of Assistant Deput 23 Wardens 24 Chairs Gibson and Crowley, Lancman and members of 25 both committees. Association. Good afternoon to the Council, Madam Chairpersons, as I said 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 before, I m the President of the Assistant Deput 3 Wardens 4 represents Assistant Deputy Wardens, Deputy Warden 5 and Deputy Wardens in Command also known as Warden 6 Level I and Warden Level II. 7 pay is equivalent to that of NYPD Lieutenants, 8 Captains and Deput 9 this opportunity to testify on this important issue Association. 114 I represent-- this union Our responsibility and Inspectors. I m thankful for 10 of jail violence and its effect on custodial staff 11 and inmate population that 12 and protect. 13 increased and is at an all-time high during this 14 DOC s Administration and leadership, both in assaults 15 on inmates with weapons and the increased viciousness 16 of the assaults on our uniformed staff members. 17 has been an ongoing problem of our department, 18 inability to deal with the increasing number of 19 inmates committing disciplinary infractions who are 20 not being segregated from the general population. 21 These inmates then continue to commit further violent 22 acts when they should have been locked down within 23 punitive segregation. 24 Commissioner and Department of Corrections has 25 eliminated from the segregation for 16 to 21-years- e re entrusted to manage For all accounts the jail violence has It I know that the Mayor and 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 old, but we encompass various age groups. 3 violence in our city jail continues to escalate as a 4 direct result of a weakened internal disciplinary 5 process for inmates in which there are no 6 consequences following violent crimes. 7 reduction of the use of punitive segregation, inmates 8 have no respect for authority within our jails. This 9 has created a situation where many uniformed staff 115 The With the 10 feel intimidated and threaten to go to work. This 11 leaves the criminal justice system where too long 12 inmates who commit violent acts in the jail have 13 their sentences combined only to have been given a 14 concurrent sentence when clearly the law called for 15 consecutive sentences. 16 Clark for the efforts that she s doing prosecuting 17 these inmates and also her District Attorney team who 18 recommend to these judges to give consecutive 19 sentences. 20 to stop violence on Rikers Island, and I would 21 greatly appreciate the support of the Council and 22 facilitating a law to ensure that these consecutive 23 sentences are commuted. 24 that violent episodes were reduced by initiating 25 prompt sentencing guidelines in intelligent and I thank honorable Darcel That s one of the tools that e can use There s no doubt in m mind 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 judicious administration of justice. 3 saying like, you know, President Husamudeen said, 4 that people who commit minor infractions like quality 5 of life infractions to be thrown away in our justice 6 system. I understand what Jumaane Williams was 7 talking about in regard to the personal feelings out 8 there in regards to closing Rikers Island, but the 9 fact of the matter is, even if you close Rikers 116 We re not 10 Island and ou put them in satellite locations, it s 11 not going to stop the problems of jail. 12 going to stop the problems of what s going on in 13 these communities with failed resource and poor 14 education, and also turning a blind eye on the things 15 that cause crime in these communities. 16 of these communities. I know what went on in my 17 community growing up. I know that if you turn a blind 18 eye to drug usage and you decriminalize certain acts 19 of drug use, it s onl 20 deterioration of that community. 21 that of course the City Council and the law makers 22 hopefully in the future will address, but 23 to get back to what we deal with on Rikers Island. 24 As Darcel Clark said, that these inmates are using a 25 two-dollar roll of black electrical tape. It s not I m a product going to lead to further Those are things e re going The 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 sophistication that the inmates is using to smuggle 3 these titanium scalpels is to wrap it and to secrete 4 it. 5 sophisticated detectors to combat this trend. 6 support of giving them these TSA-type body scanners 7 would greatly help to increase the likelihood of 8 identifying as contraband and hopefully the 9 successful prosecution of these individuals that 117 I belie e that DOC s does need better and more The 10 commit these crimes. But on top of that, the 11 internal processes on how we deal with these violent 12 criminals needs to change as well. 13 hand in hand. And so it goes 14 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 15 sorry, we have to cut your testimony short. 16 FAISAL ZOUHBI: 17 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Understood. I m Sure. But I thank both 18 the unions for being here toda . I m going to ask 19 just a few questions and I think some of my 20 colleagues. 21 asn t said So, if what you had planned to say et, ma be it ll be said in the ans ers 22 or in a very brief statement at the end. 23 about crime. 24 the 25 something quite different. A question It seems violence according to the DOC, keep sa ing it s going do n, but ou re sa ing What is the case there? 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 You know, fewer of your officers have been seriously 3 assaulted according to the Department of Corrections, 4 but still seems like a lot of the officers are 5 getting assaulted. 6 putting out that type of impression, and is it 7 accurate? 8 year ago? Can you speak to the department Are the jails safer today than they were a FAISAL ZOUHBI: 9 118 I believe because of what 10 I said before, the weakened internal process, that 11 the inmates are emboldened to commit these vicious 12 attacks. 13 game of when they commit these acts of not being 14 prosecuted and staying on Rikers Island to only get a 15 concurrent sentence, it furthers the case that they 16 can just commit these acts and get away with it. 17 That s number one. 18 segregation and the disciplinary process has been 19 reduced to a point 20 effect on their behavior, and that plays another part 21 in the rise and increase in violence towards other 22 inmates and our custodial staff. The reality of it is is that they play the The reduction of punitive here it s almost nil. 23 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 24 today or not? Just a quick answer to that. 25 FAISAL ZOUHBI: It has no Is the jail safer I m sorr . 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES ELIAS HUSAMUDEEN: 2 119 Part-- this is the 3 deal. They submit these different statistics to you, 4 to the Cit 5 this report is, and then they sit in your face and 6 tell 7 paper that it s actuall 8 These are their numbers. 9 [sic] Council, to the Ma or s Monthl , ou that it s going do n, but the told hate er ou on an 18 percent increase. So as far as ho s ooming ho, I m not quite sure, but at the end of the 10 day-- District Attorney Clark said a lot of things. 11 She actually gets it, and the problem is the 12 Commissioner doesn t, and the Ma or don t seem to get 13 it, and certain members of this, you know, of the 14 Cit 15 example that I use, you cannot arrest 35 gang members 16 and tell us that they are terrorizing Brooklyn, but 17 Council don t seem to get it. We can t-- the e re going to put them in the jail and as the 18 terrori e the jail, there s nothing that ou can do. 19 It s impossible to come at us 20 mentalit . 21 it s like taking the gun from a New York City Police 22 Officer and sa ing, 23 there we have the same issue. You want to take 24 punitive seg. 25 have worked. ith that t pe of You can t, again, as I continue to sa , Go in and fight crime. So, You want to take the measures that If you look at it, three years ago the 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 numbers were actually going down. Three years later 3 under this Administration the numbers are not going 4 do n, and for 5 the 6 go do n, and it s because the 7 with the culture of Rikers Island and with the 8 culture of running a jail. 9 120 hate er reason don t seem to be able-- don t seem to be able to do an thing to make it FAISAL ZOUHBI: again are out of touch And just to try to 10 answer, Chair Madam Crowley, your answer, if you 11 asked an average correction officers do they feel 12 safe going to work, there would be a resounding no. 13 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Understood. Now, I 14 thought I heard one of you testify about a delay in 15 arraignments. 16 that the inmates who are committing the crimes are 17 getting prosecuted or arraigned? 18 Is that still happening? ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: Do you feel Well, I testified that 19 they have a backlog, and the problem with the backlog 20 is not-- it s a problem of the department actuall 21 making the arrest. 22 department don t seem to take-- when an inmate spits 23 in your face or throws urine and feces in your face 24 and in your mouth, those arrests seem to be put on 25 the backburner. For For whatever reason, the hate er reason the don t seem 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 to think that those type of assault rises to the 3 level where these people should be immediately 4 arrested. 5 things happen to us-- and 6 large population of inmates who have AIDS, Hepatitis, 7 HIV, and a lot of different things. 8 our face. 9 eyes. 121 So, as correction officers, when these e kno that there s a They spit in our mouth. SO they spit in They spit in our They throw urine and feces in our face, and 10 the 11 cut, the ones who stab, the ones who slash, yes, 12 those arrests are done immediately, but then the ones 13 who throw urine and feces, which is an assault, those 14 ones are not-- those arrests are not taken as serious 15 by the agency, and the DA can only do something when 16 the case is actually brought to them. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 re not arrested immediatel . CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Yes, the ones ho I imagine that affects your morale. ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: It absolutely affects morale, and-CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: name for the record if Just identify your ou don t mind. THOMAS FARRELL: Thomas Farrell, 24 Legislative Chairman. Not to be disrespectful, but a 25 lot of time this committee and these hearings we go 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 to, it reduces morale. 3 futilit . 4 keep talking about the same thing, and nothing s 5 really being done. 6 against the department? 7 reporting numbers, reporting numbers, reporting 8 numbers, but what happens? 9 The numbers are fudged. We 122 It s almost an exercise in e come here going on nine years and we Can you guys take sanctions We talk about numbers, The numbers are changed. The numbers are moved. We 10 go from Category A to Category B. Are we ordering 11 food or are we reporting numbers? Nothing is being 12 done. 13 what DA Clark said, we need to get mandatory 14 sentencing, in my opinion, and we need to have 15 consecutive sentencing? 16 in the Senate. 17 Assembl 18 police officer, a firefighter, an EMT, and a 19 correction officers. 20 handcuffing the judges and maybe sending these 21 inmates a message that 22 us, but the Council needs to take steps to do it. If we want to make some changes here, exactly There s a bill up right no It s going to be introduced in the to make it a hate crime Ma be then it ll stop. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 24 THOMAS FARRELL: a hand. Ma be ou re not going to assault 23 25 to assault a Understand. You really need to force 1 123 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 2 But it is state 3 law, and so we will take a look at the bill you just 4 mentioned and look into doing a resolution in 5 support. 6 be critical of the department. 7 get more officers which is important, but we still 8 need a better training facility. 9 sure that we truly are prosecuting because it seems So, I understand h ou re critical. I d We have been able to We need to make 10 that state law is preventing us from making sure that 11 the same judge who could really give the consecutive 12 sentence is really not able to hear the case, and 13 time is of consideration as well, and these delays 14 certainl 15 certainly focused on improving, certainly the levels 16 and statistics that we see are troubling and they 17 ha e been, and the 18 your testimony. 19 appreciate. : 20 21 22 23 24 25 don t help. quick. But this committee is re getting orse and I agree ith So, I m going to conclude. I do Just-- I m sorr . Just one thing real Part of my testimony-CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: [interposing] No, ou re going to be asked more questions-ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: [interposing] No, no. 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: from other 2 3 124 committees, too. ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: 4 Just one more thing. 5 If you guys can be as helpful as you can in getting 6 the District Attorneys of this city, Brooklyn, Bronx, 7 Queens, all of the District Attorneys into one room 8 to resolve some of the issues that was actually 9 eloquently addressed by the District Attorney so that 10 we can get these guys off of the island, so that we 11 can get them out of our system so that we can reduce 12 the amount of assault against correction officers, 13 because this population is largely responsible for a 14 lot of it. 15 I m sorr . CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: We ll look to do 16 that, but it would take a state law to change your 17 jurisdiction. 18 I know that your members of the union work hard under 19 very difficult circumstances. 20 appreciate the work of correction officers as well as 21 the management there. 22 over to my Co-chair. 23 I thank you for the work that you do. So, again, I I m going to no CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: transfer it Thank you very much, 24 Chair Crowley, and good afternoon to all of you, Mr. 25 President and to your team. We appreciate you being 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 here and certainly understanding the challenging 3 dynamics that we work in. 4 just comment. 5 criticism towards the City Council, and let me first 6 say-- 125 So, before I begin, let me In your testimony you made a lot of 7 ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: [interposing] Members-- 8 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: [interposing] that 9 any Council Member that was here earlier who is 10 certainly not here, that does not mean that they are 11 not equally as dedicated to working with you and COBA 12 and DOC and many others. 13 one of m 14 hearing to end and my colleague thinking that you 15 called him out because he had to leave. 16 be clear, any members that come to our hearing today 17 and have come forth, their commitment is absolutely 18 firm. 19 mean that this information is not important, but I 20 certainly want to make sure that, you know, blanket 21 statements towards the City Council towards these 22 committees, I certainly will not allow to go on 23 record. 24 understand 25 So, I know you referenced colleagues, and I certainl You kno , So, I don t ant this So, let me e ha e schedules and it doesn t ant to make sure ou re clear and here I m coming from, because ou called 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 out one of my colleagues that sits on my committee. 3 So, just ant to make sure that s clear. ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: 4 5 that CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: [interposing] Absolutely. ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: 8 9 I need to make sure ou re clear-- 6 7 that I have been coming to these council hearings for almost 20 years. 10 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Okay. 11 ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: And I m quite 12 126 accustomed to City Council Members who come in-- 13 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: [interposing] Right. 14 ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: put there whatever on 15 the floor and lea e, and don t ha e the respect to 16 stay. If you have some-- if 17 and 18 to put a particular idea on the floor as if there s 19 some t pe of inhumane treatment that s going on, then 20 I have every right in representing my members to call 21 you out, and I absolutely, positively will. 22 are members of this City Council, and they may not be 23 sitting up there, who every chance they get they take 24 a hit at New York City Correction Officers-- 25 ou re going to come here ou re going to put an argument or ou re going There 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: [interposing] Oh, 2 3 okay. ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: and they find it 4 5 necessary to blame us, and I consider-CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: [interposing] I got 6 7 you. ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: 8 9 10 127 Jumaane Williams and Danny Dromm and Ydanis Rodriguez and quite a few other ones to be those people. So, I-- 11 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: [interposing] Okay. 12 ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: am offended when they 13 come to these meetings, make their statement, ask the 14 question on behalf of 15 then leave. hoe er pocket the re in, and 16 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Oh, oka . 17 entitled to your opinion, but as the Chair of Public 18 Safety-- 19 20 So, ou re ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: [interposing] I understand. CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 21 and you know, 22 working with my committee members, I certainly want 23 to make sure I go on record. 24 three 25 years, but certainly in my three years of chairing ears. I e been here for So, I don t ha e the tenure of 20 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 this committee I want to make it clear that we are 3 committed to working with you. 4 are high, and 5 understand what your members go through every single 6 day, because I have friends that are on the job. So, we know emotions ou kno , don t think that I don t 7 ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: 8 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: So I get it. 9 128 Absolutely. I get it. 10 ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: 11 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: It s not about Absolutely. 12 about the bigger picture of making sure that 13 correction officers are safe, the 14 the 15 that they need. re ell trained, and the ou. This is re e perienced, re gi en the ser ices 16 ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: And-- 17 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: [interposing] So, in 18 your testimony you talked a little bit about 19 resources. 20 other things. 21 happen. 22 out of the Academy that are given the smartphones and 23 other technolog 24 given these new devices? 25 You talked about iPad. You talked about That s a simple measure that can So, is it just the ne CO s that are coming and the e isting CO s are not being ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: Yes. 1 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Is that 2 3 ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: 5 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Okay. 6 ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: ou re Yes, currently. That s definitel true. FAISAL ZOUHBI: 8 9 hat saying? 4 7 129 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES the re onl Just to add to that, gi en that to ork inside of the 10 Correction Academy, not to-- as part of their day-to- 11 day equipment. 12 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 13 an even bigger problem then. 14 ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: Oh, oka . So that s We re still in a 15 dinosaur days when it comes to collecting data, 16 collecting information and producing the necessary 17 reports of things that can actually assist us in 18 doing our job. 19 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Okay. that e And with some 20 of the other technolog e talked about ith 21 the DA as far as the different technology that we 22 obviously need state approval, is that something that 23 COBA has already been working on in terms of getting 24 state law changed? You have relationships in Albany 25 with many of my former colleagues. So, do we have a 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 further commitment that you can help us to see if we 3 can get some kind of success in this THOMAS FARRELL: 4 hopeful. 6 Committee up in the Assembl . 9 We re er They changed the Chair of the Correction So e re hoping that-- CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: [interposing] So I 7 8 ear s session? Absolutel . 5 130 heard. THOMAS FARRELL: the new Chair will be a 10 little more towards the middle and a little more 11 understanding as to what the City needs and what we 12 need to do our job and to protect not just our 13 members but the inmate population as well. 14 CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Right. Okay. And 15 let me ask a question, because I did get a chance to 16 ask Commissioner Ponte about the de-escalation 17 training and the crisis intervention training. 18 you give me your thoughts on that, because you know, 19 I always hear multiple sides of a story, one side, 20 the other side, and then the truth is in the middle. 21 So, can you give me your perspective on the de- 22 escalation and crisis intervention for officers? 23 ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: Can Chairwoman, the fact 24 of the matter is is that the de-escalation training 25 and the other start [sic] program and the training, 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 the things that the 3 actually the training means nothing. 4 absolutel 5 enforce the basic la s of the land. 6 going-- if 7 my-- train my member to de-escalate a situation, but 8 ou re not going to train my member what to do when 9 that situation can t be de-escalated, or if they end 10 up with procedural violations of that, then you want 11 to suspend them or maybe even arrest them. 12 nothing. 13 the Commissioner here toda 14 for us to take it serious, because until you deal 15 with the basic fundamental issues that are facing us, 16 we have to be safe, and the de-escalation training 17 hasn t done an thing to make us safer. 18 done anything to even make us feel safer. 19 they begin to literally address this handful of 20 inmates that the 21 the city in a chokehold, none of this other training 22 and none of this other stuff reall 23 just not important. 24 of talking to my members and being in the jails and 25 seeing exactly the result is that all of this 131 re given to correction officers, nothing at all if It means e re not going to ou re going to tell m If e re not member and teach It means I don t think that anything that is said by or an one else, it s hard It hasn t So, until re allo ing to put the agenc matters. and It s I mean, this is just my opinion 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 training that 3 giving us, what s been the outcome? 4 result? 5 numbers. 6 to whatever it is that they need to be paying 7 attention to. e been-- that the What has it done? So ob iousl , the said the re What s been the It hasn t decreased the re not pa ing attention CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: So, if that is your 8 9 e 132 position and many of your members, I mean, we are 10 investing millions and millions of our taxpayer 11 dollars getting to the root issues that we deal with, 12 you know, focusing on the consecutive versus 13 concurrent. 14 infractions are prosecuted first. 15 little bit about some of the more minor infractions, 16 but the 17 should be urinated on. 18 disgusting-- 19 20 DOC has the authority to determine which re still infractions. So, you talked a No correction officer That s unacceptable. It s ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: [interposing] It s probably happening right now. CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 21 that a human would 22 do that to another human, right? 23 it is. 24 Administration to look at every single infraction 25 Let s call it So what do we need to do to get the hat 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 with the equal le el of attention? 3 line. ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: 4 133 That s the bottom One of the things-- 5 and I ll let President Zouhbi ans er for himself. 6 One of the things is this-- and yes, we are 7 definitely about and interested and support the 8 consecutive sentences. 9 part of the problem. The problem is that s onl a That is only a part of the 10 solution. The immediate problem is that my members 11 should be able to come to work and feel safe first. 12 So, as far as the Department being in a position to 13 address what comes first and what infractions, at the 14 end of the da 15 that s most important like urine and feces and spit 16 and slashing and stabbing and the things that are 17 being done to my members. 18 issues before we can move forward. 19 to tr 20 going to give them some place to stay. 21 sense to tr 22 hungr 23 first thing that they have to do and they have to 24 focus on is making us safe, keeping us safe, and then 25 we can move forward to all the other things, because the re not addressing the issue to help somebod We have to address those that s homeless unless to preach to somebod unless It makes no sense ou re It makes no ho s freaking ou re going to feed them first. The 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 then it s easier. 3 sorry, Zou? It ll fall right in place. FAISAL ZOUHBI: 4 134 I m Yeah, I agree with 5 President Elias. 6 go along with it. 7 going to gi e 8 large mental health population, I don t kno if the 9 courts ha e identified these issues, but if e re 10 11 There are many working parts that The problem and if Corrections is ou statistics to sa that there s a dealing with a large mental health population and ou re teaching de-escalation tactics, the re not 12 mental health psychologists or psychiatrists that can 13 diagnose these problems. 14 them, but it 15 The reality of it is that the guys who are throwing 16 feces and spitting on staff and assaulting staff like 17 that, they are also manipulating the system. 18 know that if they commit these acts it prevents them 19 from going to state prison and/or prolongs their stay 20 on Rikers Island. 21 it. 22 23 24 25 They can try to identify on t al a s lead to a positi e outcome. There s a lot of They orking parts to CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: Okay. So, I know we have to move on, but you know, let me just say that, ou kno , ob iousl the old s stem isn t we have to be much more creative. orking and We should be 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 smarter than those that are on the inside. 3 the bottom line. 4 to pla 5 I refuse to sit here and think that all of our 6 education and experience, all the titles we have and 7 135 That s If they play the game, then we need the game better. That s just the realit , and e someho can t find a solution to this. There are 8 more of us than there are of them. Like, it s 9 absolutely just ridiculous sometimes that we have to 10 keep having these conversations. Even down to 11 something as simple as technolog , let s get it done. 12 I kno 13 doing it because I m frustrated. 14 residents all the time, and the 15 therefore, I m frustrated, right? 16 is something that we have to keep dealing with, and I 17 appreciate your willingness, but you know, also 18 understand that e er one s got to gi e something, 19 right? 20 never jeopardize or minimize our commitment to our 21 members. 22 fighting for your members. 23 safe. 24 a vested interest, but how we get there is the 25 critical path that we have to figure out. it sounds eas , but I guess I m committed to I hear from m re frustrated. So, So ou kno , this This is about negotiation, but we should So, I m fighting for m district. You re Your members need to be My district needs to be safe. So we all have And you 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 know, to me, as long as violence continues to erupt 3 on the island, then 4 and I take responsibility as Chair of this committee. 5 So, you know, we have a lot more to discuss and we 6 can t do it all in t o hours and three hours-- e re all taking responsibilit , ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: [interposing] 7 8 136 Absolutely. CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: 9 but you know, 10 certainly I look forward to working with you. But you 11 know, being clear again, I get the criticism, and 12 I ll take the criticism 13 have not done my role, but I also want to make sure 14 that you understand that there s ob iousl 15 stakeholders that are involved in this process that 16 reall 17 talk about it, 18 bottom line. ha e to 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ork here, ou kno , I think I ith us. You kno , e ha e to be about it. more e can t just That s the ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: I mean, not to interrupt you. ork ho This union has been attempting to ith this agenc man ears. We in this cit for I don t kno e ne er e er-- CHAIRPERSON GIBSON: [interposing] Well before my tenure. 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: 2 137 We have never ever not 3 want to work to make things safer for us. 4 just-- makes no sense. 5 same page. Listen, Councilman Gibson, I know you. 6 You know me. 7 e er thing that 8 Crowley as correction officers is concerned. 9 just that the fact of the matter is, we need to be So, we are definitely on the I appreciate you. ou That s e done as I appreciate ell as Councilman It s 10 safe, and you guys are in a position to make that 11 happen. 12 these rules, write these laws, it needs to be done, 13 and I think that the Commissioner s feet needs to be 14 held to the fire. 15 is. 16 about EHS, and she asked him, 17 Well, listen, let s call it 18 punitive. 19 I mean, the same way you guys push, write I mean, let s just call it hat it I think it was Councilman Crowley asked him Is it puniti e? hat it is. It s Why in the business of law enforcement are e going to be afraid to sa it s puniti e? 20 the business that 21 keep officers and inmates and civilians safe, there 22 are going to have to be punitive measures taken to 23 answer or to resolve or to address certain types of 24 behavior. 25 e re in, and if That s e re going to But the Commissioner is in a position here he s scared to death because the Board of 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 Corrections or the City Council or in particular some 3 City Council Member is going to take him to task 4 because he s sa ing 5 and that s exactly 6 you want to protect correction officers, protect the 7 inmates, and not want to use punitive measures when 8 it becomes necessary. 9 e er bod 138 es, EHS is a puniti e measure, hat it is. You can t sa that So, we have a situation where s afraid to sa the ord puniti e. We need 10 to say the word punitive. 11 clear. 12 streets. 13 punitive. You go to jail. You could have commit the 14 same crimes in the jail. You should be subjected to 15 punitive measures to correct or address your 16 beha ior. 17 shots and the inmate comes out of his cell trying to 18 take m head off. 19 people ho don t have boots on the ground and don t 20 have a clue as to what we do. 21 in these places and in these chambers and tell us 22 what our job is, and that pisses me off, and it 23 pisses off m 24 off the City Council and everybody else involved. 25 Because at the end of the day last year more than 600 Listen, ma am, We need to make it very ou commit a crime in these You get arrested. You go to jail. You can t tell us that We re dealing That s e can t do head ith a bunch of But they want to sit members, and I m hoping that it pisses 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 of my correction officers were assaulted, 600. 3 you know the kind of freaking fever would be going on 4 in this city if we said 600 police officers were 5 officers? 6 enforcement officers just as everybody else. 7 been brought here to uplift and to protect public 8 safet , and 9 respect that e er bod So, hat, e don t count? 139 Do We re law We have e don t get the same t pe of reaction or else get. There s no a in 10 the world that the City Council, any City Council 11 member, any mayor, anybody should be comfortable that 12 600 law enforcement officers charged with enforcing 13 the la s in these jails 14 oka . 15 going to continue-- 16 17 I m sorr . ere assaulted, and that s It s just not something that s CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: [interposing] No, it s not oka . 18 ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: to be tolerated. 19 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: That s h e had 20 the hearing today, to understand why inmates are not 21 getting prosecuted, 22 officer or another inmate. 23 panel for being here toda 24 to continue to work together to do what we can to 25 bring justice to those who are victims of crime on hether the re assaulting an I do appreciate the whole to testif . We re going 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 Rikers Island, and 3 to reduce the violence or hold this Administration 4 more accountable. 5 kno 6 this con ersation. 7 time today, but as I mentioned earlier, we do have to 8 get out of this room and there s a second part to 9 this hearing. m number. e re also going to 140 ork together There ll be more hearings and I m al a s open. I m sorr We re actuall ou We ll continue that e don t ha e more going to hear a bill 10 no that is Council Member Lancman s. 11 thank you for being here, and I m going to quickl 12 get into the second part of the hearing, which is a 13 bill introduced by Council Member-ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: [interposing] Thank 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 So, again, you. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Thank you. Council Member Lancman-ELISA HUSAMUDEEN: [interposing] Thank you Madam Chairs. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: I m not going to 21 speak to the bill in the interest of time. I m going 22 let Council Member Lancman do that. 23 recogni e Council Member Lancman. 24 his opening out, I just want to also let the folks 25 here and the public know that Elizabeth Glazer who is No , I d like to While he s getting 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 the E ecuti e Director of the Ma or s Office of 3 Criminal Justice was invited today to give testimony 4 on behalf of this bill. 5 here today to-- with prepared testimony on behalf of 6 the Office of Criminal Justice? 7 Lancman. afternoon. Is anybody Council Member COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 8 9 She s not here. 141 Thank you. Good I m Council Member Rory Lancman and a 10 member of the Committee on Fire and Criminal Justice, 11 and I m the prime sponsor of Intro. 1373 12 committee will now hear. 13 on Courts and Legal Services. 14 Committee on Fire and Criminal Justice chaired by 15 Council Member Elizabeth Crowley for hearing this 16 legislation toda , and I look for ard to 17 sure will be an interesting discussion. 18 than half of all inmates are sitting on Rikers Island 19 because the 20 per of the more than 6,000 non-felony defendants 21 assigned bail of 500 dollars or less failed to secure 22 bail at arraignment, and 40 percent of these 23 defendants never made bail prior to the final 24 disposition of their case. 25 with people too poor to buy their freedom, but this hich this I also chair the Committee can t make bail. I want to thank the hat I m Today, more Indeed, in 2015, 84 Rikers Island is filled 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 should come as no surprise when contrary to state law 3 almost no effort is ever made to evaluate a 4 defendant s financial abilit 5 seemingly low bail amount. 6 committee together with the Committee on Courts and 7 Legal Services held a hearing on the state of bail in 8 New York City and potential ideas for reform. 9 hearing featured testimony from stakeholders across 142 to make e en a In June of 2015, this The 10 the criminal justice s stem, including the Ma or s 11 Office of Criminal Justice, the Center for Court 12 Inno ation, Ne 13 retired judges, District Attorney Offices, indigent 14 defense providers, charitable bails funds, and 15 outside advocacy groups. 16 we could make our current system more fair by 17 ensuring that judges set bail amounts with full 18 information and consideration of a defendant s 19 current financial situation, including what bail 20 amount if any they could realistically make and 21 whether they or their relatives had assets which 22 could be pledged if necessary to secure their 23 attendance at trial as the law allows. 24 Office of Court Administration acknowledged in 25 explaining Chief Judge Johnathan Lippman s bail York Cit s Criminal Justice Agenc , Stakeholders emphasize that As even the 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 reforms in October of 2015, arraignment parts suffer 3 from enormous case volumes and legally impose time 4 constraints, but often preclude a more thorough 5 consideration of relevant factors and where 6 information about a defendant s circumstances ma 7 limited. 8 heard today comes into play. 9 Agency already conducts pre-arraignment interviews of 143 be This is where the legislation that is being The Criminal Justice 10 every defendant to evaluate their flight risk. 11 requiring CJA to also objectively and independently 12 e aluate a defendant s financial capacit 13 certain amounts and certain kinds of bail, Intro. 14 1373 will ensure that judges have the full 15 information they need to, if necessary, set bail 16 amounts and bail mechanisms that are appropriate 17 given a defendants 18 in conjunction with other reforms efforts such a the 19 Citywide Bail Fund sponsored by Speaker Melissa Mark- 20 Vi erito and the Cit 21 Program will go a long way toward ensuring that 22 people are punished for their crimes, not for their 23 poverty. 24 Department of Justice in a brief filed last year in 25 the 11th circuit. financial resources. By to afford This la , s e panded Super ised Release Let me close by citing the United States At issue was a Georgia 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 Municipalities Bail Law that sent a man to jail for 3 six days because he couldn t pa 4 the misdemeanor charge of being a pedestrian under 5 the influence of alcohol. 6 the 14th Amendment if without consideration of 7 ability to pay and alternative methods of assuring 8 appearance at trial, it results in the pre-trial 9 detention of indigent defendants. 144 160 dollars bail for A bail practice iolates This fairl 10 describes the state of bail in New York City, and I 11 believe that the current operation of our bail 12 statute here in New York, and I believe the current 13 operation of our bail statute here in New York City. 14 I do look for ard to hearing the 15 testimony. 16 MOCJ has planned to testify. 17 testimony. 18 that testimony, Alex Crohn, I understand had a death 19 in the family, and so we understand. 20 point in the conversation with some of the other 21 witnesses, I might highlight some of the points that 22 MOCJ raised in posing this bill. 23 much. 24 25 itnesses Madam Chair, let me just mentioned that There is written The individuals who was going to provide CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: the first panel. But at some Thank you very We re read to call Peter Kiers, representative from 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 New York City Criminal Justice Agency which is a 3 nonprofit organization. 4 PETER KIERS: Hi, thank you very much. name is Peter Kiers. I m the Acting E ecuti e 145 5 M 6 Director of the New York City Criminal Justice 7 Agenc . 8 bill at hand. Good morning to-- or good afternoon to 9 Chair Crowley, Gibson and Lancman and the people on I m here to gi e testimon regarding the 10 the committee. In the effort to save time I will not 11 read through it, but I believe you all have the 12 testimony that I have there, but I do want to read 13 the more pertinent points. 14 outgrowth of the Manhattan Bail Project in 1961 where 15 it was reasoned that people, the developers of the 16 project rightly realized that the reason why jails 17 were full was because arrested persons could not 18 afford the bail. 19 were released, while those who could not afford the 20 bail sat in jail. 21 that is what we want to talk about today, the 22 introduction of money in the bill. 23 the-- what happened with the Manhattan Bail Project 24 was a demonstration. 25 interpersonal contact that was reached between the As you know, CJA is an Persons who could afford the bail Money was the deciding factor, and As we go forward, It was a success because of the 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 project and the people who were arrested regarding 3 personal characteristics and community ties. 4 continued with that with using the assessment that we 5 do use, it s a more-- it s a 6 assessment, and we are able to go forward using that 7 with our ability to rightly asses defendants who are 8 going arraigned as to whether or not they should be 9 released on recognizance, and in some instances other 146 We have alidated risk 10 forms. Recently, the City has funded a Supervised 11 Release Program in all boroughs giving the court an 12 alternative non-monetary release option for 13 defendants who are likely to receive money bail a 14 release condition. 15 range of pre-trial options to better assure that 16 defendants who are released receive outreach from us 17 to return to court. 18 people for upcoming court dates, both several days 19 before and on the morning of the court date using 20 interactive computerized call, text messages and 21 letters that give appropriate court dates and 22 noncompliance warnings. 23 Units that identify persons who did not appear in 24 court, and the staff reaches out to arrested persons 25 for up to 29 days, counseling them to return Additionally, CJA provides a full We do notifications for both for We have Failure to Appear 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 voluntarily. 3 getting over 40 percent to return without additional 4 warrant charges with having additional warrant 5 charges dismissed. 6 who leave court with low-cash bail and who are slated 7 for transport to Rikers Island and borough 8 facilities. 9 Expediting Units. 10 er 147 The units have been successful in The agency is cognizant of those With that in mind, we have Bail Those Bail Expediting Units are important because e re able to put holds in the 11 court for people who are able to have sureties come 12 to court and post the bail for them. 13 transported to Rikers Island or to other correctional 14 facilities. 15 in that regard so that we are able to work with the 16 bail funds in identifying people and also to place 17 holds on them so that the bail fund representatives 18 can come and place the bails in the court. 19 principle in all of these initiatives that I just 20 mentioned is the exposure of the arrested person to 21 the people who work with him or her during the pre- 22 trial period to encourage court appearance and stress 23 to them the importance of not getting rearrested, 24 encouraging a defendant to be truthful, to 25 participate, to have him work with his family, and They are not We also are working with the bail funds The core 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 also to come to court. 3 about here is reintroducing money as a stakeholder. 4 The bill before us today is different. 5 solely on assessing an amount of money to be levied 6 while recent initiatives in New York City focus on 7 the infusion of making the surety more personal in 8 the process. 9 using money as that which influences the released 148 What we are very concerned It rests The language of the bill focuses on 10 decision. When we put into law or statute a 11 mechanism that focuses on using money bail no matter 12 what the amount, the court relinquishes a certain 13 discretion that is solely the courts and only the 14 court s prerogati e. 15 court can simultaneously maximize the three-pronged 16 consideration necessary for a pre-trial release, 17 weighing the liberty interest involved in the 18 presumption of innocence and the presumption of 19 release, making choices that assure the court the 20 court appearance, and guarding the public safety in a 21 way that is consistent with the law. 22 personal dynamic how can an amount of money better 23 assure safety? 24 than non-financial or non-secure personal release 25 funds? Does money better ensure liberty? If ou think about it, onl the Without the Can money guarantee appearance better We already 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 know the answer to that. 3 bill, how do we arrive at an established amount that 4 the defendant can afford? 5 Salary? 6 of defending oneself? 7 mone 8 another personal surety? 9 ascertain the information is formable, and once an are Bank accounts? 149 Regarding the proposed What do we consider it? Assets and property? Outstanding debt? e talking about an Cost And whose a , the defendant s or The work necessary to 10 amount is determined and the information goes to the 11 defense attorney to talk about money bail, to talk 12 about an alternative with his client, then money is 13 on the same playing field as the other forms of 14 release. 15 the judge to grant our ROR, release of the 16 supervision, unsecured personal bond will become 17 largely a mechanical one determined by the nature of 18 the chare in an amount that a person can afford? 19 What seems to be the intention of the law is good? 20 As I can see, the law is meant to reduce the number 21 of defendants both at Riker and other correction 22 facilities by providing the attorney with-- excuse 23 me-- by providing the attorney and defendant 24 financial information obtained by the Pre-trial 25 Services Agency, which could be presented to the What was individually informed decision by 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 judge, allowing him or her to have more factual 3 knowledge when setting a monetary bail. It is 4 presumed that the judge will use the information to 5 set a bail so that the defendant can bail him or 6 herself out. 7 culture will change if the judge should have this 8 information. 9 speak against it and to make bail recommendation. 150 It is also presumed that the court The DA also has the opportunity to CJA entitled, A 10 research report b Doctors influencing 11 release in bail decisions in Ne 12 Doctor Mary Phillips has shown that the most 13 important influence in the courts release decision is 14 the DA s bail request. 15 the court and other players buy into the bail scheme 16 that the law mandates? 17 think not. So, what to do right now to alleviate the 18 number of defendants going into DOC arraignment. 19 The estimated current cost we estimate of 20 implementing this proposal would be approximately 21 2,300,000 dollars, including personnel, fringe, shift 22 differential overtime, and OTPS. 23 defendants held on bail in 2016 was about 41,586. The 24 number of defendants held on bail-- I m sorr . 25 However, only 40 percent of them were employed, and York Cit , b Without cultural change, will Just by making a law, we The number of 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 their median earning was 400 dollars per week. Most 3 of these defendants are unlikely to be able to afford 4 any amount of bail. 5 allocate so much money to facilitate the release of 6 small numbers of defendants on bail, it would make 7 more sense to fund proposals that would give you more 8 bang for the buck. 9 helpful. 151 If the Council is being asked to The following suggestions may be One, the Ma or s Office of Criminal Justice 10 along with CJA will be working on new ROR risk 11 assessment that will be updated and hopefully will 12 expand the number of defendants recommended for ROR. 13 The assessment can also be used to identify 14 defendants who can safety be released under 15 supervised release with appropriate release 16 responses. 17 expansion of supervised release and enhanced 18 supervised release so that such expansion with 19 guaranteed responses citywide can service more 20 defendants who would ordinarily be given bail. 21 in the short term working with charitable bail funds. 22 Three providing money for judge training on the 23 arraignment process and extoling the purpose of law, 24 liberty interest and the release decision. 25 working with the unified court system in New York We would certainly recommend funding the Two, Four, 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 City to stress other forms of bail allowed by law but 3 usually ignored. 4 law. 5 services agency to review status of detained 6 defendants on an ongoing basis to determine if there 7 are any changes in eligibility for release or other 8 circumstances that might enable, the conditional 9 release of defendants and provide the court with 152 There ae eight of them in the state And five, provide funding for the pre-trial 10 needed information to facilitate the release under 11 appropriate conditions. 12 multiple non-cash options to help judges realize the 13 actual release of bailable [sic] defendants by 14 reducing the use of money bail. 15 the elimination of money bail and each small decision 16 that is made regarding the judges release decision 17 should keep that in mid as we move to achieve the 18 ultimate goal. 19 principles of creating a personal approach in 20 fashioning each defendants 21 release, unsecured personal bonds, working with 22 charitable bail organizations have their roots in the 23 original concept of bail. 24 more defendants become eligible and able to 25 participate. The goal should be to create The goal should be The philosophical and ethical release, ROR, supervised Without the use of bail, The court, the people and the 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 defendants are the stakeholders in the release 3 decision process. Money should never be a stakeholder 4 at the table. 5 of the current money bail system, it will shift the 6 decision-making focus and hinder the personal 7 released decisions that are necessary for the 8 simultaneous considerations of liberty, assurance of 9 court appearance, and public safety. In conclusion, I 153 If the focus is shifted to any version 10 want to thank the Council for the court about the-- 11 the council for its concern about the very critical 12 aspect of pre-trial release and for the opportunity 13 you have afforded me and others to offer comments and 14 suggestions. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Thank you for your 15 16 testimon . I m going to recogni e Council Member 17 Lancman with questions. COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 18 19 Thank you for your testimony. 20 patience. Good afternoon. Thank you for your 21 PETER KIERS: Thank you. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: I have to be 23 frank with you. There s an undercurrent in your 24 testimony and at some points it stated directly, and 25 I e heard it from other ad ocates of fello fighters 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 of the good fight in the effort to try to eliminate 3 money bail. 4 enemy of the good. 5 I m 6 who are sent to Rikers Island for some period of 7 time, could be a day or two, could be weeks, it could 8 be months, because they cannot make small bail 9 amounts, 500 dollars, 1,000 dollars 1,500 dollars, 154 And it smacks of the perfect being the The reality is now, correct me if rong, there are thousands of people each year 10 even less. And we start with the proposition while 11 we wait for the magical day to occur when cash bail 12 is-- monetary bail is eliminated in New York State 13 despite efforts of people far more prominent and 14 powerful than you or I or this City Council to 15 achieve that result. 16 under state law now judges are required to examine, 17 among other factors, a defendant s financial 18 circumstances when deciding whether or not to set 19 bail and what amount, right? 20 Law 510-30: 21 degree of controller restriction that is necessary to 22 secure his court attendance when required. 23 determining that matter, the court must on the basis 24 of available information consider to take into 25 account 11 different factors, nine different factors, We start with the fact that The Criminal Procedure the court must consider the kind and In 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 including defendant s emplo ment and financial 3 resources. 4 I 5 seen numerable arraignments. 6 happens. 7 law that could contribute to changing the culture and 8 putting information in front of judges that will 9 enable them to apply state law and set bail amounts 155 So, right now, that almost never happens. e sat in arraignment parts. Lord kno s ou e That almost never And so we have an important piece of state 10 that a defendant could reasonabl 11 being told that in part we shouldn t pro ide that 12 information. 13 to effectively ignore the law, because doing so might 14 undermined this higher principle of goal of one day 15 being able to eliminate monetary bail entirely. 16 think that that is just a very, very unrealistic way 17 to view this problem and to try to help as many 18 people as we can without-- to be able to stay out of 19 Rikers Island. 20 many people, if you set 500 dollars bail you might as 21 well set it at five million dollars. 22 through-- I d like to go through some of the 23 suggestions that you-- 25 comment-- e re We should continue to allow the judges I Because if you set-- for some people, PETER KIERS: 24 make, and Let s go Can I just make one quick 1 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: [interposing] 2 3 156 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES Sure. PETER KIERS: 4 the part that you just 5 said? In taking a look at that, one of the things 6 that-- there are a couple of things that we 7 mentioned. 8 process is always squeezed in the time frame of, you 9 know, the 24-hour rule, you know, arrest to You know, and as you know, the pre-trial 10 arraignment time, and when we take a look-- well, 11 when we take a look at people coming out of 12 arraignment in the Beck s [sic] program, for 13 instance, and we see that they have 500 dollar bails. 14 It s 15 we call the surety up, usually mom, dad, wife, 16 whomever, you know, very-- the 17 but a lot of times the 18 know, to make the bail. 19 er seld-- you know, I mean, we get a few that re able to make it, re just not able to, ou And the other thing is that, ou kno , in looking at the timeframe, that s the 20 scariest part for us. 21 these non-financial positions like supervised release 22 and-- 23 that these things will get bumped because the court 24 culture will always go back to money, you know? 25 it s just like the default mechanism. ell, certainl Because as we come up with ROR is there, but e re afraid And And hen you 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 look at the state law, there are other types of bail 3 that are non-- 157 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: [interposing] 4 5 Well, that s one of the problems also, because as e 6 know not only are there nine considerations that a 7 judge should give before setting bail and deciding 8 what the amount are, there are nine different 9 mechanisms for how that bail can be met. And right 10 no , 99.9 percent of the time, it s either cash bail 11 or an insurance bond, but if the judge was given 12 information that so and so maybe had real property or 13 personal property that could be pledged, or that so 14 and so s mother or father or brother could like ise 15 do that. 16 the information necessary to see if any of these 17 other seven much less onerous criteria than cash bail 18 or insurance bond could be met, then in some number 19 of instances, and I think a lot of them, but in some 20 number of instances the judge will then say, okay, We think that at least providing the judge 21 e re going to do number se en. 22 going to-- I m just going to let 23 don t 24 your own recognizance, whatever reason. 25 doing it an ant to do ROR. a , but I don t You kno , e re just ou out. You re-- I ant to release ou pledge if I ou on asn t ou don t sho up, 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 I kno 3 pay the court 250 bucks, whatever. 4 not being given the information to be able to 5 comfortably choose a different mechanism for paying 6 bail, we are consigning those defendants to the 7 reality that they will either be released on their 8 own recognizance, terrific, or be one of the very, 9 very lucky few who get into the bail fund or the ou e got a job and 158 ou re going to ha e to If the court is 10 supervisory programs that we have, or be part of that 11 mass of thousands of people who end up going to 12 Rikers Island, because the only thing the court could 13 think of is 500 dollars, 500 dollars, 1,000 dollars 14 without any real thought or consideration given to 15 it. 16 PETER KIERS: Right. And the other two 17 things that we mentioned is that-- well, on the form 18 itself we do take in-- we do record information 19 regarding work, the people the person supports, the 20 amount of money that the person makes, you know, when 21 he s in his job. 22 unemplo ed. 23 statistics that I just mentioned to you about 40 24 percent. 25 If he s unemplo ed, then he s So, that s h e came up ith these 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 2 159 And listen, I 3 had that opportunity which I appreciate to sit and 4 watch those interviews-- 5 PETER KIERS: [interposing] Sure. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: being conducted, 7 and I m sensiti e to the fact about the 24-hour 8 arraignment time, and I kno 9 er sensiti e about, all the DA s are ou kno , ho ell the ery, re 10 doing in that time. 11 almost fanatical about, you know, being the fastest 12 in the Cit , if that s true. 13 sa s it. 14 your agency, and we wrote the law vaguely. 15 e I know Judge Brown in Queens is I don t kno . But he So, I get it, but I m confident kno ing Like, e re not prescribing the e act questions to be asked 16 and how to ask them, because we think that you can 17 figure that out maybe working with OCA and the 18 Defense Bar, and the DA s offices, but I don t think 19 it would take more than five, 10 minutes per person 20 to just get this basic information and be able to put 21 that in front of the judge. 22 the specific things that you had mentioned as 23 suggestions, alright? 24 that s terrific. 25 is going to be, and we hope that appropriately Look, let s go through The new risk assessment, We look forward to seeing what that 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 recalibrates the courts and the DA s offices in 3 particular expectation of how often ROR would be 4 offered, but I don t see that being mutually 5 exclusive, and at the end of the day there are going 6 to be a certain number of defendants that the DA s 7 offices and the courts are going to feel like this 8 gu 9 those places we want to make sure that the skin is an 160 s got to ha e some skin in this game, and for 10 amount that can be reasonably be met. It mentioned 11 in the short-term working with charitable bail funds 12 to e pand their use; amen, but 13 gotten the council s bail fund up and running if I m 14 not mistaken. 15 there, and I think it s been-- 16 years now. 17 stress the other forms of bail allowed by law-- 18 listen, unless the courts are confronted with the 19 direct information which would pass through the 20 defense council that CJ 21 see any compelling reason why would be able to do a 22 better job than Judge Lippman did who was completely 23 committed to this issue to getting the courts to 24 change that culture. 25 I kno e still ha en t We re close I m told. We re still not e re going on t o Working with OCA with the court system to as able to collect, I don t Look, this is a starting point. that s said often in legislation as a clich . 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 It s a bill. 3 for ard. 4 that if you have an open mind about how we can better 5 provide information to courts 6 required to consider but don t currentl 7 build a better mousetrap than what we have today. I m confident that if PETER KIERS: Okay. 8 9 10 11 It s a hearing. 161 We want to move this e ork that the ith ou and re legall ha e, e can I would just mention the whole idea of the court culture being very important, and I did mention the research project as ell about the effect of the District Attorne 12 request in there. It s an e tremel 13 in the court process. s bail important element 14 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 15 you briefing me on that when we had one of our 16 initial conversation and that what the DA asked for 17 is the significant-- is the most significant factor 18 in what is eventually offered. 19 counsel is able to get up and say, Mr. so and so has 20 no money in his bank account, no job, no nothing, but 21 you know, his mother s got a job, maybe they can put 22 up 50 bucks. 23 to-- confronting the courts with the reality that 24 thousands of people are being sent to Rikers Island 25 because the I don t kno . can t make Yeah, I remember If the defense It s got to-- it s got hat seems to us an 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 insignificant amount of bail has got to have an 3 effect on that culture, and 4 counsel to challenge the District Attorne 5 wrote recitation of we want 500, we want 2,500. PETER KIERS: 6 here 162 e ll arm the defense s kind of Well, I would-- I 7 understand ou re coming from. I understand 8 the realm of it. 9 say what our experience has been both in the court, I just wanted to make sure that we 10 in the culture of the court and also with the Beck s 11 programs that we put forward. 12 e ouldn t absolutel and you know, I just-- ould not ant to see mone 13 put on the same line 14 as supervised release and the expansion of supervised 15 release, because that s, 16 testimony was about was that the personal contact 17 that was there seems to be more, much more than just 18 the dollar amount [sic]. 19 ith the judge s consideration ou know, what the whole COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: As you know, I 20 hope you know, this council so far as I can observe-- 21 I don t speak for the council, but this council, 22 m self, m 23 proponents of supervised release bail funds. 24 bail funds as a measure of dealing with case bail, of 25 doing a a committee, ith monetar e re big ad ocates and Well, bail to the e tent that it s 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 realistically possible. 3 state law is what it is, we have not been successful 4 as a city in ramping up either our bail funds or our 5 super ised release, 6 sa 7 who are effected by them, the few thousand people a 8 9 the 163 In the meantime because hich ou kno , I don t ant to re a drop in the bucket, but for the people ear, it s er important. But e also need to deal with the state law as it is and the reality that we 10 are not going to be eliminating monetary bail in the 11 next couple years, even in the most wildest 12 expectations of your new risk assessment, our bail 13 fund and supervised release. Thank you. 14 PETER KIERS: 15 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 16 Thank you. Thank you. I have no questions. 17 PETER KIERS: 18 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: You are free to 19 That s it. go. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: If anybody is here 20 21 for the Cultural Affairs hearing, it has been moved 22 to the neighboring committee room. 23 call the Legal Aid Society, Peter Jones, up to 24 testify. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: Ne t I d like to Good afternoon. 1 164 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 PETER JONES: Good afternoon. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 4 next door for a minute. 5 the record and give your testimony. 6 PETER JONES: Liz had to step So, just state your name for My name is Peter Jones. 7 I m the attorne in charge for the Legal Aid 8 Societ 9 Let me just defer for a moment-- s Criminal Defense Practice in the Bronx. COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: [interposing] 10 11 Just move the mic a little closer. 12 PETER JONES: Sure. Thank you. I just do want to 13 raise the issue that-- and point a fact, the nature 14 of my testimony unlike that of my colleagues relates 15 to the violence on Rikers Island, and it seems as 16 though that ship ma to-- COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: [interposing] You 17 18 ha e sailed, but I m happ missed that boat. 19 PETER JONES: I think in part because we 20 came as a group. I am happy to summarize though my 21 summary of the submission and address that I think is 22 a very important issue. 23 24 25 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: the jails? PETER JONES: Yes. On violence in 1 2 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 3 PETER JONES: 4 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 5 there are other folks testifying on the bill. 6 anyone here today to testify on the bail bill? PETER JONES: 7 8 colleagues from m 9 defer to them. That s fine. Let me ask if There are. The Is re organi ation, and I m happ to them right now. 12 PETER JONES: 13 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 14 Sorry. COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: Yeah, we want 10 11 165 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES Understood. And If you could stick around. 15 PETER JONES: Sure. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: So, Legal Aid 17 folks-- hat s the ne t panel? Oka . Josh Norkin, 18 Nick Malinowski, Brooklyn Defender Services, Scott 19 Levy, the Bronx Defenders, and Sergio De La Pava, 20 from New York County Defenders. 21 talk about bail. 22 from the Brooklyn Community Bail Fund. 23 here? 24 in one shot. 25 a nice chair? Come on do n. Also-- whoops, sorry. There she is. Rachel Foran Is she still Just come on do n. Can we get her a chair? She s been Let s We ll do it Can we get her aiting all da . With 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 166 2 cushions-- oka . h 3 don t 4 Push the button, red light. If there s no preferred order, e just start from 5 ou on do n. JOSHUA NORKIN: Ho s that? Joshua Norkin with the 6 Legal Aid Society. I work in the Special Litigation 7 Unit. 8 Aid Societ 9 six years or so, and officially sort of now work on I have been personally working on the Legal s bail reform issues for the past fi e or 10 that issue fulltime. Our testimony today that was 11 prepared I m going to just lea e to the Council 12 Members to read for themselves, but I think the focus 13 of my testimony essentially piggy-backs on some of 14 the issues raised by the Criminal Justice Agency most 15 recently which is in their testimony which is what is 16 the potential impact of this bill, and will it 17 actually influence judges to make decisions to 18 release our poor clients who cannot afford to get out 19 of jail from Rikers Island. 20 Legal Aid society hopes or at least has some hope 21 that this bill may provide some relief in that 22 regard. 23 being released on unsecured or partially secured 24 bonds which are authorized by the statute, but I 25 think that our experience over the past several years And I think that the Right now there are very few if any people 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 and my experience individually is that when our 3 clients are released on these forms of bail, it tends 4 to be very successfully. It tends to ensure that our 5 clients get out, and we tend to have the same results 6 as having our clients released on their own 7 recognizance. 8 incentive to plead guilty has been removed from the 9 process by having them obtain their release. 167 Primarily probably because the I can 10 say that my personal experience with this having been 11 a trail attorney in the Bronx is that having a client 12 released on an unsecured, partially secured bond to a 13 relative allowed that person to spend 21 days out of 14 jail. 15 trial, and that defendant was eventually acquitted of 16 all of the charges, and in our testimony we go 17 through a litany of different cases, and in 18 particular these examples include a number of 19 different non-violent and violent felony cases in 20 which we have had success having our clients released 21 on these types of bail and making their appearances 22 in court. 23 out, these types of bail are routinely used in 24 Federal Court. 25 brief say that in Federal District Court roughly 36 They did not take a plea. The case went to And one thing that I would like to point The numbers that we cite too in our 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 percent of defendants are released on unsecured 3 bonds. 4 crimes that the defendants have been released on an 5 unsecured bond. 6 these types of bonds in New York City is essentially 7 zero at this point, and given the fact that we have 8 bail funds working, that there are certain 9 constraints to defendants being able to post 500 168 Thirty-four percent of those are violent Given that the rate of release on 10 dollars bail that may not necessarily be solved by 11 this particular piece of legislation. 12 hope in my mind that this legislation may reduce the 13 portion of Rikers that some of the other measures 14 don t address, and b 15 party recommendation into this process at a point 16 that will allow our clients hopefully obtain their 17 release, then there is the hope that if there is the 18 shift in culture, judges, attorneys, and-- it s 19 little unfortunate that our District Attorney Clark 20 has left the room-- that perhaps some of this culture 21 shift will actually take root because it largely 22 hasn t in our si 23 do this, I think that it has been largely very, very 24 successful. 25 think that when our attorneys ask for it, they are There is a injecting a non-partisan third- ears of ad ocac . So, a hen judges I think our own examples confirm that. I 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 met with sort of puzzled looks, silence, and a 3 judiciary that largely has not sort of acknowledged 4 that these remedies exist in the Criminal Procedure 5 Law, and I think that the great hope of this bill is 6 that by putting that information in front of judges, 7 in front of the District Attorney is going to be much 8 harder for them to ignore that, and it makes it much 9 more likely that the judges might be willing to do 169 10 something that when simply asked by a defense 11 attorne 12 I m sure e er one else here has got plenty to say, so 13 I ll lea e it at that and take an the eren t going to do. COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 14 15 pre iousl And questions. Good. Thank you. 16 NICK MALINOWSKI: I m here toda My name is Nick 17 Malino ski. on behalf of Brookl n 18 Defender Ser ices. 19 and the Committees for having the hearing today. 20 staff is on the front lines of working to mitigate 21 the negative impact of bail policies. 22 earlier today about the issues at Rikers Island, but 23 also wanted to bring to your attention more also the 24 harsh consequences that follow up from our clients 25 who can actually pay bail. We d like to thank Cit Council BDS We heard a lot So, that is money that 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 they might otherwise use to pay rent, food or other 3 necessities. 4 create problems as well in the community. 5 done some mapping in Brooklyn of the neighborhoods 6 where our clients post bail, and as you might imagine 7 it s concentrated in a fe 8 9 hat e 170 People often borrow money which can specific We have ip codes, and e been able to see is that there s an impact throughout the entire neighborhood where money that 10 might be spent, you know, in the bodega, in local 11 small businesses instead is tied up in court. 12 as many as 75 percent of people in the local jail 13 system being pre-trial detainees, the common 14 narrative is that people are in jail simply because 15 they re poor, but this suggests an abstract passi e 16 process to which people simply find themselves locked 17 up on Rikers Island. In reality, individual judges 18 and District Attorneys make discretionary decisions 19 that lead to the pre-trial incarceration of 20 presumptively innocent people. 21 ultimately set bail amounts and methods, the 22 financial recommendation of prosecutors made without 23 e en a cursor 24 resources significantly impacts the judicial 25 determination of who goes to jail and who gets to go With While judges glance at a defendants financial 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 home. 3 attempts to get at some of the issues listed above by 4 requiring CJA to report on people s abilit 5 that judges have more information at their disposal 6 when making bail determinations. 7 bail is only used in the most limited circumstances. 8 The reality for our clients is the difference between 9 180 dollars in bail and 500 dollars in bail is 171 The bill considered by City Council today to pa so It s crucial that 10 incredibly significant, but this is never considered 11 by judges. 12 or even 500 dollars, and in general there are only a 13 handful of bail amounts that judges in Brooklyn use, 14 typically advancing in 500 dollar increments, again, 15 showing that no individualized determination is being 16 made with respect to defendants 17 While 18 better consider our client s financial capacit 19 pay, we also have concerns about due process and 20 privacy concerns. 21 gate-keepers to this information about our client s 22 financial resources, and 23 net widening [sic] and that just because CJA has 24 determined that people have the capacity to pay bail 25 should not mean that they do. We rarely see bail set under 250 dollars financial resources. e belie e it s essential for the court to to Public defenders should be the e re also concerned about Lastly, in the last 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 piece of the bill it mentions commercial bail bonds 3 which we also have significant concerns about. 4 clients regularly report problems with the bondsmen, 5 and in addition 6 bondsmen to take bonds lower than a thousand dollars. 7 So, for many people even though that is provided by a 8 judge as an option, practicall 9 guess in sum we support the bill and thank you for 10 e 172 Our e seen that it s rare for speaking it s not. I allowing us to testify. COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 11 Good. Thank 12 you. the first version of the bill had the 13 information going directly to the court, but in 14 response to feedback like 15 current version of the bill has the information going 16 to defense counsel, and then he or she can decide how 17 and when to use that. NICK MALINOWSKI: 18 19 hat ou e gi en us, the We think that s er important thank you. SCOTT LEVY: 20 Thank you. Scott Levy, I am 21 Special Counsel to the Criminal Practice at the Bronx 22 Defenders. 23 keep it brief, but what we do know is the inability 24 to pay even small amounts of bail distorts the 25 administration of justice at every level. Gi en e er thing e e heard I ll tr to Just two 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 weeks ago I had a client who is charged with petty 3 larceny. What is considered a moderate amount of bail 4 was set. His family would have been able to come up 5 with some of that money but was not able to come up 6 with all of it, and as a result he ended up taking a 7 plea to a short jail sentence rather than waiting in 8 Rikers for his trial. 9 the amount of bail set at arraignments seems 173 And for many of our clients 10 arbitrary and completely disconnected from the 11 realities of their lives, and when bail is set at an 12 amount or in a form that clients cannot make, 13 concepts like due process and a presumption of 14 innocence take a back seat to the realities of 15 poverty and economic dislocation. 16 that 17 cause of justice in t o important 18 discussed those already. 19 judges consider a client s financial circumstances 20 when setting bail, so that the amount does not feel 21 and is not in fact arbitrary, and is actually 22 calibrated to an amount that the client can play, but 23 secondly and equally important, the legislation would 24 require judges to consider alternatives forms of bail 25 such as partially secured bonds when making their e re discussing here toda The legislation ould ad ance the a s, and e e First, it would ensure that 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 determinations. 3 already have a number of tools already at their 4 disposal to ensure that bail serves its proper 5 function to ensure a person s return to court rather 6 than act as de facto preventive detention. 7 state legislature wrote our current bail statute it 8 included a long list of alternatives to traditional 9 bail and insurance company bonds. And as e 174 e discussed, the courts When the Despite these 10 efforts-- despite efforts of the defense bar to 11 educate judges, the alternative forms of bail that 12 have been on the books for decades have been slow to 13 take effect. 14 bail it seems to us is neither principled or 15 ideological, but rather a result of a systemic lack 16 of training and familiarity, bureaucratic inertia, 17 and a lack of logistical and clerical support that 18 lea es judges 19 worth the hassle. 20 encourages judges to consider the alternative forms 21 of bail already available to them by removing 22 significant bureaucratic and logistical obstacles, 23 providing judges with a clear roadmap. 24 by the courts, the legislation could finally allow 25 existing bail statute to be used to its full The resistance to alternative forms of ith the impression that it s just not This legislation today rightly If embraced 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 potential. 3 needed accountabilit 4 arraignment court rooms, and more crucially, this 5 effort will help safeguard the presumption of 6 innocence and due process for our clients. The legislation would add a layer of much and transparenc 7 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 8 RACHEL FORAN: 9 175 in the Cit s Thank you. Good afternoon. Thanks to the Committees and the City Council for permitting 10 this testimon . M name is Rachel Foran. I m the 11 managing director at the Brooklyn Community Bail 12 Fund. 13 organization and operate under New York State law 14 which says we can pay bail in amounts of 2,000 15 dollars or less for misdemeanor defendants 16 afford it. Grateful to be here with the PD offices 17 who can speak to the use of alternative forms of bail 18 outside of cash bail and insurance bond. 19 speak to the intent of this bill based on our day-to- 20 day experience paying bail for New Yorkers who cannot 21 afford it and to but for our organization and the two 22 other charitable bail organizations operating in New 23 York City would be jailed for their inability to 24 afford even a small amount of bail. 25 Community Bail Fund has been in operation for a year We are a charitable fund or a charitable bail ho can t I m here to So, the Brooklyn 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 and a half. 3 income New Yorkers. 4 Brooklyn, Manhattan and Staten Island, and serve New 5 Yorkers who are represented by all the PD offices in 6 those boroughs. 7 our clients is 910 dollars. 8 between freedom and jail for the New Yorkers we 9 serve. 176 In that time we paid for 1,300 lowDespite our name, we operate in So, on average the bail we pay for That s the difference Unable to raise a few hundred dollars, our 10 clients would have spent an average of roughly two 11 weeks in jail. 12 consequences of even short lengths of incarceration 13 can be profound for individuals and their families 14 and their communities. 15 experience and from the data your committee has in 16 front of you, from CJA there are thousands of New 17 Yorkers every year who have a bail amount set, but 18 they will never be able to afford. 19 like small amounts on paper, it is often beyond the 20 reach of many New Yorkers. 21 from CNN noted that 60 percent of Americans do not 22 have access to 500 dollars in savings or liquid cash. 23 So, we commend the intent of this bill. 24 existence and our experience show that the ability to 25 afford bail amounts must be considered if we are We all know that the collateral As you can see from our daily What may seem A study just last week Our 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 trul 3 and equal justice. 4 Brooklyn Community Bail Fund that the central tenant 5 of bail is flawed. 6 back to court. 7 phone call reminders of their court dates. 8 connect clients in need to community-based services 9 to meet the needs that they themselves identify. to uphold Ne Yorkers 177 presumption of innocence We know from our work at the Money is not what gets people We provide our clients with friendly We also In 10 the extremely rare event that a client does not 11 return, it s not because the 12 the desire or the resources to do so. 13 may have been hospitalized or are really ill or 14 the 15 keep food on the table and to make ends meet. 16 though they have no financial incentive to return, 17 not to us, not to the court, or to a commercial bail 18 bondsmen, 95 percent of our clients have made all of 19 their required court dates, at times facing great 20 difficulties, and this is despite the fact that 75 21 percent of our clients were judged to be either 22 moderate or high-risk of not return by CJA. 23 is the really-- this is the reason that they had bail 24 set in the first place rather than being released on 25 their own recognizance. fled; the don t ha e Rather, they re the sole bread inner and are struggling to Even So this The bill being considered by 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 City Council today attempts to confront the reality 3 we face every day by requiring CJA to report on 4 people s abilit 5 information at their disposal when making bail 6 determinations, and we believe that this is 7 incredibly important. 8 concerns about ho 9 actual financial capacity to pay bail and hope that 178 to pa , so that judges ha e more CJA However, we do have some ould determine defendants 10 City Council will consider this as it considers this 11 bill. 12 were deemed moderate or high-risk of not returning by 13 CJA and then they return at 95 percent with no 14 financial incentive. 15 been deemed low-risk of not returning, and we must 16 ensure that an 17 financial capacity, confronts the process and the 18 tools for accurate measurement. 19 an 20 to work out and we commend the committees for 21 addressing a huge inequity in the current criminal 22 legal system, the jailing of people simply because of 23 their inability to afford bail and buy their freedom. 24 Thank you so much for this opportunity. 25 ne As I said before, 75 percent of our clients ne These individuals should have s stem that s going to consider And obviously, in s stem there s going to be a lot of details 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 2 3 179 Thank you very much. SERGIO DE LA PAVA: 4 Good afternoon and 5 thank you for this hearing and for the opportunity to 6 be heard. 7 Defender Services. I certainly join my colleagues in 8 applauding any attempts such as this one at bail 9 reform, but also feed the need to advocate on behalf I m Sergio De La Pa a from Ne York Count 10 of a more radical re-thinking of this Cit s 11 procedures and practices in this area. 12 bill introduces a very welcomed element, a 13 determination that recognizes what should be a 14 fundamental truth. 15 the resources of the defendant. 16 that this ameliorative measure will reduce the always 17 tenuous incentive for more significant reform while 18 increasing the improper centrality of money bail in 19 our system. New York City must set as its goal the 20 elimination of money bail. 21 Washington D.C. long ago recognized the wisdom of a 22 system centered not on the ability to pay money, but 23 on an extensive system of supervised release to be 24 used when appropriate, and I guess my concern is if 25 resources are devoted to making this determination The proposed Judges must tailor bail to fit What concerns us is Jurisdictions like 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 that the bill calls for, will that be diverted where 3 it may, as representative from CJA mentioned, be more 4 properly infused into a more extensive supervise 5 release system. 6 has been a genuine tangible success in this area in 7 the last years, and I would far welcome, and I assume 8 my colleagues would welcome an expansion of that 9 system, and that may be the best place to place 180 I think supervised release system 10 resources. Also of concern is the proposed statute s 11 explicit reference to insurance company bail bonds. 12 This is troubling to us because this is a form of 13 bail that should be at least strongly disfavored, if 14 not outright banned as it has been elsewhere. 15 bonds introduce the elements of commerce and profit 16 taking where they most certainly do not belong. 17 person s libert 18 be a venue for commercial exploitation. 19 the resulting industry is rife with abuse and bad 20 faith. 21 normalization of insurance company bonds in the form 22 of distatutory [sic] language, but rather a de- 23 emphasizing of this improper practice. 24 certainly applaud any attempt to reduce the 25 population of pre-trial detainees based on poverty, These A and constitutional right should not Predictably, What s required here is not further That said, we 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 and for that reason we are generally in support of 3 the bill. COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: 4 5 don t ha e an I questions. CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: I don t ha e an 6 7 Terrific. 181 questions. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER LANCMAN: Good. 9 thank you very, very much for your patience and for 10 our perspecti e. It s e tremel I want to aluable. As I 11 mentioned, it already helped us to adjust an 12 important part of the bill, and as we go forward, 13 e re definitel going to rel on our e perience 14 representing indigent defendants, in your case, 15 helping them make the small amounts of bail that are 16 not so small to them. 17 questions any lack of appreciation for your testimony 18 and input. So, don t take b m lack of Thank you all very, very much. 19 UNIDENTIFIED: Thank you. 20 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: Next and last we 21 have Legal Aid Society, Peter Jones. [off mic] 22 testify? 23 [off mic] 24 CHAIRPERSON CROWLEY: 25 Good. So, the Committee and the Council will be working with 1 COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY & FIRE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES 2 Council Member Lancman on this bill. 3 all that-- all those who came today to testify. 4 know it is important to reduce the population on 5 Rikers Island and anyone who is not truly at risk of 6 flight should not be given a high bail or a bail. 7 So, 8 think that concludes our hearing. 9 [gavel] Fire and Criminal Justice joint with Public 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 We appreciate e re going to continue this con ersation. Safety Hearing of January 17, 2017. 182 We And I This concludes Thank you. C E R T I F I C A T E World Wide Dictation certif ies that the foregoing transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings. We further certify that there is no relation to any of the parties to this action by blood or marriage, and that there is interest in the outcome of this matter. Date ____January 26, 2017_______________