Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 1 of 54 Nathan M. Poke v. City of La Crosse ERD CASE NO. CR2O16-04.903 Transcript of the Testimony of: Nathan NI. Poke March 2,2018 G GnennANN REPORTING Inf,ovfrtion , Expdrise' Integity 8N,899 :1222, www.Gra mann MtBIyAUK[f; 414.272.7A78 . MAOISON 608.268.M35. R€ portlng,com FA,X: 414.272.'1806 FAX: . 740 North Plankinton Ave, Suite 400, Milwaukee, Wl 53203 608,268,0437. 14WestMifflinStreet,Suite3ll,Madison,W53T03 EXHIBIT I t  1 2 3 4   Filed: 08/30/19 Page 2 of 54    Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 STATE OF WISCONSIN DEPARTMENT OF WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT EQUAL RIGHTS DIVISION -------------------------------------------------------NATHAN M. POKE, Complainant, 5 6 7 vs. ERD Case No. CR201604903 EEOC Case No. 26G20170359C CITY OF LA CROSSE, 8 9 Respondent. -------------------------------------------------------- 10 11 12 13 Deposition of NATHAN M. POKE 14 Friday, March 2, 2018 15 9:59 a.m. 16 at 17 von BRIESEN & ROPER, s.c. 10 East Doty Street, Suite 900 Madison, Wisconsin 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Reported by Shelly A. Loniello, RPR         Filed: 08/30/19 Page 3 of 54    Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 1 Deposition of NATHAN M. POKE, a witness 2 in the above-entitled action, taken at the instance 3 of the Respondent, pursuant to Chapter 804 of the 4 Wisconsin Statutes, pursuant to Notice, before 5 Shelly Loniello, Registered Professional Reporter 6 and Notary Public, State of Wisconsin, at von 7 BRIESEN & ROPER, s.c., 10 East Doty Street, 8 Suite 900, Madison, Wisconsin, on the 2nd day of 9 March, 2018, commencing at 9:59 a.m. and concluding 10 at 2:22 p.m. 11 A P P E A R A N C E S: 12 13 14 15 16 17 THE JEFF SCOTT OLSON LAW FIRM, S.C., by Mr. Jeff Scott Olson 131 West Wilson Street, Suite 1200 Madison, Wisconsin 53703 Appeared on behalf of Complainant. von BRIESEN & ROPER, s.c., by Mr. Christopher P. Riordan 411 East Wisconsin Avenue, Suite 1000 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202 Appeared on behalf of Respondent. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25         Filed: 08/30/19 Page 4 of 54    Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 1 I N D E X 2 Examination by: 3 Mr. Riordan ......................................... Page 4 4 5 E X H I B I T S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE IDENTIFIED Exh. 1 Discrimination complaint .............. 49 Exh. 2 9/1/15 Memo ........................... 93 Exh. 3 8/31/15 Memo .......................... 100 Exh. 4 9/17/15 Administrative leave rules .... 103 Exh. 5 9/18/15 HR note ....................... 104 Exh. 6 8/31/15 Order to draft memo ........... 118 Exh. 7 Separation agreement .................. 158 15 (Original exhibits attached to the 16 original transcript; copies provided to attorneys 17 ordering exhibit copies.) 18 19 R E Q U E S T S 20 By: 21 Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. 22 23 24 Page Riordan Riordan Riordan Riordan Riordan Riordan Emails ............................. 29 Audio recordings ................... 30 Personal notes ..................... 35 Videos ............................. 40 Leave notices ...................... 130 Dates/times on phone ............... 191 25         Filed: 08/30/19 Page 5 of 54      Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Page 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS NATHAN M. POKE, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn on oath, was examined and testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR. RIORDAN: Q Could you state your full name for the record, please. A Nathan Poke, P-O-K-E; middle name Michael. Q All right. Current address? A 7400 Second Avenue South, Richfield, Minnesota, 55423. Q And how long have you lived at the Richfield address? A I closed December 29 of '15. Q Mr. Poke, have you ever had your deposition taken before? A No, sir. Q I'm assuming your counsel told you a little bit about what's going on here, but just so you and I understand how -- how to proceed, I'll just go over some rules. One, I need a verbal answer, yes or no; if you need to explain, go ahead, just no nods or uh-huhs, uh-uhs, because the court reporter can't distinguish what we're talking about then. Page 5 A Sure. Q Also, if I ask a question you don't understand, tell me to rephrase it. I do ask some obtuse questions every once in a while. A Sure. Q So ask me to rephrase it if you don't understand it. If you answer my question, I assume you understood it. And finally, let me get my question out first before you answer, so we can make it easy on the court reporter -A Okay. Q -- okay? You indicated you didn't have any prior deposition experience; have you ever given testimony at trial before? A Yes. Q And how often have you given trial testimony? A Between prelims and jury trials, numerous. Q Okay. A Yeah. Q And I was assuming that, and I was assuming also that you gave most of this trial testimony in your position as a police officer? A Correct. Q Have you ever given trial testimony while not    Page 6 1 2 A 3 4 5 6 Q A 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q A acting as a police officer? Well, when I had testified at the -- that hearing, I guess I wasn't employed as an officer, but it was reference from when I was an officer. And what hearing are you speaking of? There was a lawsuit that several people from La Crosse had to testify in. Were you a party to that lawsuit? Yes. Who were the other parties to the lawsuit? Initially myself, Officer Ulrich, Sergeant Dittman, Captain Kudron, several attorneys, a judge. MR. OLSON: Do you know about the case, Chris? MR. RIORDAN: I do not. MR. OLSON: It was a pro se Fourth Amendment civil rights damages action against a number of La Crosse police officers. MR. RIORDAN: I was going to say, when I saw attorneys and judges, I assumed that. MR. OLSON: Yeah, yeah. MR. RIORDAN: And just to cut this short, who was the -- what was the plaintiff; do you remember? MR. OLSON: I don't think I -- Page 7 THE WITNESS: Phillip -- Phillip Dunn. MR. RIORDAN: Phillip Dunn. Okay. THE WITNESS: I think it's D-U-N-N. BY MR. RIORDAN: Q And he was acting as his own lawyer? A Yes. Q Okay. So that was the only other occasion you gave testimony while not being on the active -A Correct. Q -- roster? Have you filed any other lawsuits or claims other than this one? A No. Q Okay. How about any worker's comp claims? A No. Q Okay. And -- and I assume when you testified that you haven't filed any other lawsuits or any other claims, we're also including ERD claims or discrimination claims, correct? A Correct. Q Just to move back to where you resided prior to moving to Richfield, where did you live? A It -- my La Crosse address? Q Yeah. A 201 Callaway Court, La Crosse, Wisconsin.      Filed: 08/30/19 Page 6 of Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 54     Page 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q A Q A Q A 7 8 9 Q 10 A 12 Q 11 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 A Q A Q A Q 20 21 A 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 Q A 4 5 Q A 8 Q 6 7 9 A 11 Q 10 12 13 A 14 15 Q 16 A 18 Q 17 19 20 A 21 22 Q 23 A 25 Q 24 And when did you leave that address? I believe it was October or November of '15. Okay. So you moved from La Crosse to -End of October. -- Richfield? I initially moved in with my mom -- or my dad and my sister for a few weeks before I closed on the house. Okay. But the -- the next permanent residence would have been the Richfield address? Correct. And where do your -- you said you lived with your father and your sister for a while? I did, yes. And where do your father and sister live? Bloomington, Minnesota. Is that where you grew up? I grew up in Richfield, which is right there. Can you give me a little bit of your educational background, starting with high school. Graduated from Richfield High School, 2005, I went to Winona State for two years, went to the police academy at Alexandria Technical College, got my two-year degree there, then went to St. Cloud State in St. Cloud, Minnesota, where I'm one quarter Page 9 short of finishing my bachelor's there. Okay. And I had to attend Western Technical College in La Crosse, their police academy, just -- the summer of 2011 is all. Okay. What years were you at Winona State? 2005 and 2006 school year. Okay. Was there any -- any particular focus when you were at Winona State? No. Okay. And why did you decide to leave Winona State? To get focused, spend my money wiser and dedicate it towards the police academy. Okay. You said you next attended the police academy at Alexandria Technical College, correct? Correct. What years were you at Alexandria Technical College? I started there January '08 and finished July of 2009. You said you completed a two-year degree when you were at the Alexandria Technical College, correct? Correct. What was that degree in?    1 A 2 3 4 5 Q 6 7 8 A Q 9 10 11 A 12 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 13 17 18 19 Q 20 21 A 23 Q 22 24 25 A 1 Q 2 A 4 Q 3 5 6 7 8 A 9 10 11 Q 12 A Q 15 A 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q A Q A Q 22 A Q 25 A 23 24 Page 10 Law -- it was like their law enforcement associate, I think an AAS or -- I'm not sure like the technical form. It was like the two-year law enforcement police degree. Okay. And the purpose of getting this law enforcement degree was what? To become a police officer. Okay. Is this law degree that you received at Alexandria Technical College necessary for becoming a police officer? The minimum qualifications in Minnesota is that you have to have an associate's degree, yes. Okay. So you have to have a two-year degree then? In -- in that specific area, yeah. Okay. If you have a four-year degree, you have to go through some other stuff, if it's not criminal justice, I suppose, related. Okay. So if you went to a four-year institution and got a history degree, you still have to get some additional training in the technical area? Yep, yep. Okay. But this technical schooling gives you all that? Correct. Page 11 In the -- the two years between Winona State and Alexandria Technical College, what did you do? Say it again. It looks like you -- you stopped going to Winona State in 2006, but then began going to Alexandria Technical College in 2008; what did you do for that two-year period of time in between? Well, the -- I think the 2006 calendar would have been done May of '07, and then I moved back with my mother. Okay. You indicated you also went to St. Cloud State; is that correct? Correct. When did you start at St. Cloud State? I believe it would have been January of 2009 -- no, let me take that back. And I'm just asking for your best recollection. Right. January of 2010. Okay. Until May of '11. And you indicated you're one short of finishing your bachelor's degree; is that correct? Yes. And what is your bachelor's degree in? It would be in criminal justice.      Filed: 08/30/19 Page 7 of  Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 54     Page 12 1 Q 2 3 4 A Q 5 6 7 A 8 9 10 11 12 Q A Q 13 14 15 16 17 A Q 18 19 A 20 21 22 23 Q A 24 25 Q And what is your plan to do with that bachelor's degree once you receive it? Meaning? Is there a reason why you're getting a bachelor's degree above and beyond the two-year associate's degree that you received? Continuing education, some jobs offer stipends based on having that degree. I mean, it's competitive, so it helps -Okay. -- with the hiring processes. Okay. And -- and the reason I ask that question is because you indicated that a lot of police forces require the two-year associate's degree in order to become a police officer? Uh-huh. Are there positions that you're going for that require a bachelor's degree? Sure. I guess the state minimum is the two-year degree; most departments want you to have your bachelor's degree. Okay. Some departments, it's a requirement for you to even apply, to have a bachelor's degree. Does the bachelor's degree have to be in criminal Page 14 1 2 3 4 5 A Q A 6 7 8 Q 9 10 11 12 A Q 13 14 A 15 16 Q 17 18 19 20 21 A Q A 22 23 24 25 Q 1 A Q A Q Page 13 1 2 3 4 A Q A 5 6 Q 7 8 9 10 11 A Q 12 13 14 15 16 A Q 17 18 19 20 A 21 22 23 24 25 Q justice? For? For the police work you want to do. Is the expectation of like those departments you mean? And that was a bad question, so let me rephrase that. When we talked about earlier getting the associate's degree to go on -Uh-huh. -- to become a police officer, you indicated you could get a four-year degree, but then you would probably have to get some additional training in the actual police sciences? Yep. With the bachelor's degree that you're going for at St. Cloud State, does that have to be a specific focus in criminal justice in order to get further on in the police force or can it be in any area? To -- I guess -- I'm not -- I guess I'm not following. Sure. And it's a bad question, and I appreciate you -- you calling me out on that. I guess, if you get a -- a four-year bachelor's degree in history, would that help you    2 3 4 5 6 7 A Q 8 9 10 A Q 11 12 13 14 15 A Q A Q 16 17 18 19 20 A Q A Q 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q in your drive to get further in the police department? Well, once you're hired or beforehand? Once you're already hired. I think at that point it would help with your -your stipend, you would get paid more, and probably advancement, yes. Okay. If you were not already a police officer, would a bachelor's degree in history help you get a job? Yes. Okay. You said that -- that's in some departments, they're looking for a bachelor degree? Right. I mean, with still having the other technical stuff, yeah. Okay. You also indicated that you took a course -course at the Western Technical College in La Crosse in 2011? Yes. And what was that for? It was the Wisconsin 520 police certification course, basically the -- the technical portion in order to get hired in Wisconsin that I had completed already in Minnesota. Okay. So it was the Wisconsin equivalent? Page 15 Yes. Okay. Yeah. So in order to work in La Crosse, you had to take this course? Yeah -- yes. Yep. And you indicated you took the course in 2011, correct? Correct. And that was before becoming a police officer with the La Crosse Police Department? Yes. Okay. Presently, where are you employed? City of St. Paul Police Department. And when were you hired by the City of St. Paul Police Department? I started their training on October 16 of '17. October 16 of 2017; is that what you said? Correct. Okay. I'm sorry, I just didn't hear you. And how long was the training? Seventeen weeks. What is your designation while you're in training? Police recruit, I suppose. And where is the training performed?      Filed: 08/30/19 Page 8 of  Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 54     Page 16 A Q 3 A 1 2 4 5 6 Q A 9 Q 7 8 10 11 12 13 A Q 14 A 16 Q 17 A 15 18 Q 20 A 21 Q 19 22 A Q 25 A 23 24 Q 2 A 1 3 4 5 Q 6 7 A 9 Q 10 A 8 11 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 12 16 17 Q 18 A 20 Q 19 21 A Q 24 A 25 Q 22 23 At one of their training facilities. And what facility did you train at? The address is 600 Lafayette -- I don't know if it's a street or a road, 600 Lafayette, it's in -the -- they just built a brand-new training facility for St. Paul. Okay. So it's in St. Paul? Correct. Did you have to go through any other courses or training other than the 17-week period that you just discussed? No. And once you completed the training, what was your designation? Right now I'm in what they call field training. And when did you begin field training? February 11, if that -- I believe that's a Sunday, February 11. Yeah. Okay. Of 2018 I assume? Correct, yes. So you go from the 17-week training period to this field training portion? Correct. How long is the field training? Four months. Page 17 And what does the -- the field training entail? You're partnered with a senior officer who basically teaches you the way of the St. Paul Police Department on the street. Are -- are you a full-fledged -- full-fledged member of the police force when you start the field training? Yes. Okay. I got my badge pin on -- I believe it was the -Thursday, the 8th. Of which month? February. We had like a -Oh. -- like a graduation ceremony. I believe that's when you technically become an officer, I think. So February of 2018, you became a full-fledged officer? Correct. Okay. And how are you paid once you become a full officer? Every two weeks. Is it -- are you paid by the hour, by the week? Hour. And what's your hourly rate?    Page 18 1 A 2 Q 3 4 5 A 6 Q 7 8 A 9 Q 10 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 A 1 2 3 Q A 4 5 6 Q A 7 8 Q 9 10 11 12 13 A Q 14 15 16 17 A Q A 18 19 20 Q A 21 22 23 Q 24 25 A $27.03. Does that change when you become a -- a full-fledged officer? Were you -- were you paid differently when you were in training? No. All right. So once you got into training, you were paid $27.03? Correct. Okay. And how many hours do you work now as the -a full-fledged member of the police force? Eighty hours a pay period. And how long is a pay period? I -- 14 days, I believe. What -- what's your schedule presently? It can -- always switching. I do like four on, four off for a certain amount of weeks, then it switches to five on, three off for a certain amount of weeks, then it switches back. But during FTO, you go to whatever scheduling-off group that officer's on, so you -- I just kind of -- changing. Okay. So once you get to field training, you're on the senior officer's schedule? Yes. Okay. So that's midnights, afternoons, days. It just -- Page 19 it keeps switching. So -So the shift switch in -- is your days -- your work days off. Okay. But the -- the pay period is still 14 days? You still -- whatever -- if it's 4/4, 5/3, you still, at the end of the 14 days, put in 80 hours. Got it. When you resigned from the La Crosse Police Department, what -- what was your pay at that time? I -- 29 and some change, I believe. Okay. And we're talking about September of 2016, correct? Yes. Okay. My best recollection was 29 and some change. It might have been more. Okay. I'm just looking for your best recollection. Yeah. I -- I stopped literally looking at my La Crosse mail. It was just -- it was just -- it was direct deposited. Okay. Was it the -- the same type of pay period in La Crosse as it is now for St. Paul, 80 hours? Yes.    1 Q 2 3 A 4 Q 5 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 Q 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 17 18 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 1 2 3 Q A Q 4 5 6 7 8 9 A Q 10 11 A 12 13 14 Q A 15 16 17 18 Q A Q 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q   Filed: 08/30/19 Page 9 of  Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 54     Page 20 When you were in La Crosse, did you get pay raises or did you start out at 29 and some change? Pay raises. Okay. What did you start out at in La Crosse? I know this is taking you back. 23 or 24. And I know you -- you started in, I think, 2011 you indicated? August 23, 2011. Okay. And how many pay raises in those five years with La Crosse, if you can recall? Two or three, I believe. Do you remember what the pay raises were, in amount? No. I think they go -- like steps, like after a year, there's a raise, three years, there's a raise. I think we got back paid from our contract getting resolved at some point. Okay. How long were you making 29.06 at La Crosse? I'm not sure. Okay. After my third or fourth year. Okay. Yeah. I -- I believe it was after my third or fourth year. I -- I -- I don't remember -Page 21 Okay. -- exactly. And, again, I'm just looking for your best recollection. With the St. Paul Police Department, are there going to be raises as well, as there were in La Crosse? Yes. Okay. And what's the scale; when -- when do they occur? I haven't even thought about asking those questions yet. Okay. But from -My assumption is probably similar, three, five, seven -Okay. -- ten. The -- the benefits that you're -- received at the La Crosse Department, are they different than those you're receiving from the St. Paul Police Department? Like health and dental? Yeah. Like are they similarly priced or -First of all, are you -- are you getting the same    Page 22 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A Q A Q A Q 8 9 A 10 11 12 Q A 13 14 15 Q A 16 17 18 19 Q A Q 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 A Q A Q A Q 3 4 5 A 6 7 Q 8 9 A 10 11 Q 12 13 14 A Q 15 16 17 18 19 A Q 20 21 A 22 23 24 25 Q benefits, or more or less? I'm getting health and dental, yes. Okay. And that was the same at La Crosse? Correct. Okay. Any price differential? I'm not sure, to be honest. Okay. That's okay. I'm just asking for your best recollection, so -Yeah, I -- as far as like premiums and deductibles, I -- I don't go to the doctor very often -Okay. -- so I don't really -- I'm not sure what the deductibles are. Okay. Once I sign up with HR, it gets deducted and I have no idea. Much like everybody else. Yeah. So you -- you were receiving the -- the same type of benefits at La Crosse as you are presently receiving at St. Paul? Yes. Okay. No real change? Presently? Yeah. Page 23 No. Okay. With the field training that you're doing presently with St. Paul, is it in a particular area or for a particular unit? I work for the east -- Eastern District of St. Paul. Is the -- the work at St. Paul divided up into districts then? St. Paul is divided into three, it would be a western, a central and an eastern district. Okay. Are you with any particular unit or just patrol? Patrol. Okay. Is there some type of unit within the St. Paul Police Department that you would gravitate toward or -- or want to join later on in your career? I'm sure. Okay. But there's nothing that comes to mind right away? Yeah, I mean, there's so many opportunities there that I -- that I -- I'm not even sure of everything that they offer right now. Okay. Was the -- the St. Paul Police Department the first police department that you applied to     #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 10  Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54    Page 24 1 A 3 Q 4 A 2 5 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 A 6 10 11 Q 12 13 14 15 A Q 18 A 16 17 19 20 Q 21 22 A 23 24 Q 25 1 2 A Q 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q after leaving La Crosse? No. What other police departments did you apply to? I applied to Richfield Police Department twice, Lakeville Police Department twice. I'm sorry, Lakefield? Lakeville. Lakeville. Okay. Okay. Minneapolis Police Department, Bloomington Police Department. I believe just -- I believe that's it. Okay. With regard to these applications to these various police departments, were you rejected or they didn't have a job opportunity or -- or what happened with those various applications, if you know? I had interviews. Who'd you interview with? With Richfield and with Lakeville and -- oh, also with St. Paul before I got hired this time. Okay. Okay. So the rest that -- the Minneapolis, Bloomington you didn't get interviews with? Correct. I had an inter -- no, I never had an interview with either of those. It was Richfield, Lake -- Lakeville and St. Paul you had interviews with? Page 25 Correct. Did you have any other job offers other than St. Paul? No. Are you married? No. Have you ever been married? No. Any children? Not yet. One on the way. And when are -- when is your child due? July 2. And who's the significant other? Her name? Yeah. Jamie, J-A-M-I-E, Noonan, N-O-O-N-A-N. Being Irish, I know how to spell Noonan. Huh? I said being Irish, I know how to spell Noonan. And I assume she's living at -living with you at the Richfield address? Correct. Okay. Has she -- was she with you in La Crosse? Were we dating at that time? Yes.    Page 26 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Yes. Okay. Mr. Poke, did you do anything in preparation for this deposition? A Did I do what? Q Anything in preparation for this deposition? A No. Q Okay. Didn't review any documentation? A No. Q And if you talked to your attorney, I don't -- I don't want to know what's been said, and I'm not going to ask you, but -So you didn't review anything; were you shown any videotapes or anything like that? A No. I gathered everything that I had, but I worked last night, so -Q Okay. (Reporter clarification.) THE WITNESS: I said I gathered everything I had in case I had time to, but I worked last night and then flew out here this morning, so I really never -MR. RIORDAN: Okay. THE WITNESS: -- had free time. BY MR. RIORDAN: Q What did you -- what did you gather? Page 27 A Just -- I don't know, copies of everything I had I think, memos I was made to turn in, a copy of a few emails I think I have, findings from the first kind of investigation the City did, personal notes I wrote to myself. Q Okay. That's all you -- of the things that you gathered? A I have an audio recording of that interview. I have -- I mean, I haven't been able to look or listen to it. Q Anything else? A No. Q Did you keep a notebook or a diary type of document to put down events that occurred with regard to your discrimination claims? A No. Q Okay. A I haven't. Q Videotape or audiotape recordings regarding what happened with regard to your claims of filing for discrimination? A I was given a copy. Q Okay. Have you made any personal videotapes or audiotapes regarding the events? A No.    1 Q 2 3 4 A 5 6 7 8 Q A 9 10 Q 11 12 A 13 14 15 Q 16 17 18 19 A Q 20 A Q 23 A 21 22 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q A Q A Q 7 8 9 10 A Q 11 12 13 14 15 16 A Q A 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q A Q A Q 24 25 A  #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 11     Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54 Page 28 Okay. You said you had collected copies of emails prior to coming here; tell me about those emails, who were they from, who were they to? I think a copy I have is from the chief to the entire department, I think the other one I have is an email from the mayor to the chief maybe. Okay. I haven't went through this stuff in so long that -Okay. Is there a lot more emails or is this pretty much the sum and substance, these two emails? I think I have one from Wendy, the old HR lady, I got emails of them directing me to do -- write different memos to them. I assume what you're talking about -- emails from them to write memos, you're talking about emails from the police department? Correct. Okay. And they're to write memos regarding certain events and so forth? Yes. Okay. Any other notes you can think of? Oh, I got all the emails from Abraham, I have like my -- my write-ups that I got, his emails explaining every time he thought I did something Page 29 wrong after that. And by he, you mean Abraham? Correct. Okay. I think that was all the emails. Okay. I -- I would ask to make sure that you keep those and if you could send them to your attorney, I -- I may request them later on, okay? Sure. You also talked about, in the information that you gathered, findings from the first investigation; do you recall specifically who the investigator was with regard to that first investigation? I would have to grab that file. Okay. The City hired an attorney to do like a preliminary investigation to decide if the City then should do a real investigation, so I have her findings. Okay. And it's just a -I have Jim Lewis' response or brief or summary. Okay. Yeah. Anything else regarding that discussion of findings from the first investigation? I have the audio recording from the whole    Page 30 1 Q 3 A 4 Q 2 5 6 7 8 A Q 11 A 12 Q 9 10 13 14 15 16 A Q 17 18 19 A Q 20 21 A 22 Q A 25 Q 23 24 1 2 3 4 A Q A Q 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 A Q A Q A Q 12 13 14 A Q 15 16 17 18 19 A Q A Q 20 21 A 22 23 24 25 Q A Q interview, I have her response to the City. Meaning the investigator's response? Correct. Okay. And, again, I'd ask the same, if you could send those to your attorney, we can request copies of those. And make sure that you keep them, okay? Anything else that you can recall from that first investigation that you discussed? That I have? Yeah. Just the audio and -- and the summary. Okay. And the audio you're talking about is the interview that you gave with regard to this investigation; is that correct? Say it again. Sure. The audio recording that you're -- you've been referencing -Yep. -- that's from the interview that you gave with regard to this investigation, I'm assuming? Well, it was my interview to -- for them to start an investigation, yeah. Okay. And who conducted that interview? The hired attorney lady from Madison or Milwaukee. Okay. Does the name Brownlee sound familiar? Page 31 Brownlee. Eileen, yeah. Okay. Yeah, there it is. All right. And she was the one that signed the first investigation report? Isn't that her name, Eileen, right? I don't recall her first name. Yeah, Brownlee. Okay. That was it. So this is the -- the audiotape we're talking about is the interview of Ms. Brownlee of you? Yes. Okay. And you don't have any other audio recordings other than the one we just discussed? Referencing the first investigation? Yeah. No. I only met with her once. Okay. Any other audio recordings that you have with regard to your discrimination claims? I have a copy of the -- my interview with Lenell Carter. I'm sorry, Lenell Carter? Lenell Carter. How do you spell Lenell?     #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 12     Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54 Page 32 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A L-E-N-E-L-L. Q And who is Lenell Carter? A A resident of La Crosse. He was a witness to a shooting. Q Does this audiotape of Lenell Carter play into your discrimination claims? A I have no idea. Q Okay. A What -- what do you mean? Q I'm just wondering, this -A I got in trouble for recording that. Q Okay. So you recorded Lenell Carter because she was a witness to a shooting in La Crosse; is that correct? A Lenell Carter witnessed a shooting, refused to talk to any of the La Crosse investigators, only wanted to talk to me. Q Okay. A I went to speak with him, not knowing that it was about the shooting. Q Okay. A I -- this is after I was no longer an NRO, didn't have any audio recording devices. When he started talking about a shooting, I recorded it with my phone so that I could burn it into evidence, which Page 33 I did. Q Okay. So this is -- this recording occurred after 2015 then; is that correct? A No. This happened when I was still employed. Q Okay. But not an NRO? A It was after I was removed from the NRO duties. Q Okay. Okay. A So like September/Octoberish of '15. Q And why did you get in trouble for recording -- was it Ms. Carter? A Mr. Q -- Mr. Carter? A Mr. Abraham seemed to think it was a policy violation. Q Okay. Did he tell you why he thought it was a policy violation? A He never told me anything. He sent a lengthy email about it. Q Okay. And this is one of the emails that you kept, correct? A Yes. Q Okay. One of the emails we've talked about just previously? A Yes. Q Okay. In that email, what did Mr. Abraham indicate    1 2 A 3 4 5 Q A 6 7 8 Q 9 10 11 A Q 12 13 14 15 16 A Q 17 18 A 19 20 Q 21 22 25 A Q A 1 Q 23 24 2 3 4 A 5 6 7 Q 8 9 10 A Q 11 12 13 A Q 14 15 16 17 A Q 18 19 20 A Q 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Page 34 was inappropriate about you recording Mr. Carter? I would have to review what policy he said I violated. Okay. It was -- you know, he printed like all the policy and then highlighted what he thought corresponded with me violating it. Okay. Any discipline as a result of this recording? I don't recall. It was towards the end. Any other recordings other than these two recordings that we talked about, the one with Brownlee and the one with Carter, that you have still in your possession? No. Okay. You also talked about you gathered personal notes that you made, correct? I'm -- like I would write down like dates that this happened, dates I met with whomever. So these personal notes you took were drafted contemporaneously with the events that you were taking notes about? Say -- say it again. Sure. These personal notes that you have -Uh-huh. Page 35 -- that you've gathered, they're notes of events that occurred that you determined were important to your claim; is that correct? I don't know if at the time I thought it was important to the claim, I just documented when I did what, so I knew. So the -- these notes of the events were taken contemporaneously with the event? Can you use a different word than -Sure. The -- you -- you took these notes at the same time the events occurred? For some of them, yes. Okay. If we looked at the notes, would we be able to determine if they were taken at the time the event occurred or -- or documented later? Some of them, yes. Okay. And, again, what was the reason for taking these notes? For my personal knowledge at the time. Okay. And, again, like I asked with the other information, if you could make sure you keep those and then send copies to your counsel. We may request those as well. Sure. Thank you. I -- I think we've gone over all the    1 2 3 A 5 Q 4 6 7 A 9 Q 8 10 11 12 13 A Q 14 A Q 17 A 18 Q 15 16 19 20 21 22 A Q 23 24 25 A Q 1 A Q 4 A 5 Q 2 3 6 7 A 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 8 12 13 14 A Q 15 16 A 17 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 18 22 23 24 25 Q  #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 13     Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54 Page 36 information that you've -- you've gathered prior to this deposition, but maybe not reviewed; is that correct? Yeah. Okay. So you don't have anything else that you gathered in preparation for this deposition that we haven't discussed? No. Okay. And, again, you haven't memorialized any of the events in any other fashion, such as a notebook or diary, correct? No. You first started with the La Crosse Police Department in August of 2011; is that correct? Correct. And I think you indicated it was August 23? Correct. And I assume that was right after you finished that class at the Western Technical College for your certification? I believe it was the next week, yes. Did you go through a training period as well with the La Crosse Police Department? A field training process, yes. Very similar to the field training process you're Page 37 going through presently with St. Paul? No. What's the difference? I mean, yes. You travel around with a senior officer and determine how La Crosse practices or does their policies and procedures? Yes. How long was the field training? I -- I believe it was three to four months. Were you with the -- the same officer during this field training for three to four months? No, not the entirety. Okay. Who were the officers that you were with for your field training? Lisa Barrix, Andy Rosenow, I was with Tony LeQue for a while. How -- how -L-E -- L-E Q U-E. Okay. Oh, let's see. That's all I can remember as far as FTOs. Okay. After your field training in La Crosse for three to four months, did you get placed on patrol or what happened next?    Page 38 1 2 A Q 3 A 5 Q 4 6 7 8 9 A Q 10 A 12 Q 11 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A Q A Q A Q A Q 22 23 24 A Q 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A Q 8 9 10 11 A Q A 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q A 19 20 21 22 23 Q 24 25 A Yes. Okay. When you're placed on patrol, are you placed with a -- a partner or how does that work? No, you ride individually. Okay. Was there a particular area that you were patrolling when you first became a patrolman after field training? No. Every day they kind of put you where needed. Okay. Were -- were you assigned a specific area of the police department in order to do this patrol? What do you mean? You know, sometimes they have areas such as, you know, urban crimes, white collar crimes -No. It was just patrol. Okay. And how long were you on patrol? Until I got into NRO. Okay. And that was in 2015, correct? Oh, I got more files too, for discrimination. Okay. We're going back to what you gathered? Uh-huh. Okay. Why don't we finish up with what you -- the files, before we go any further on this. I just thought about it when you asked me -No. And -- and that's fine. And I should have given you this instruction at the beginning as Page 39 well. If you recall something, you can just do this and just say fine, I've just remembered something, or if you want to change something because the recollection is different, that's fine too, just -- just tell me. Okay. So you recall some different files that you have, correct? Yeah. Just like printouts. And tell me what the printouts are. Several news articles, I guess I have like the videos quasi saved, like their YouTube page, but -several -- several news articles that the news did about me prior to September/October 2015, several articles and videos that were aired and printed post September/October '15. Okay. Are these articles from local papers then? There was -- I think there was an article printed here, there was one in some other state that I had found, but the majority are from, yes, like the La Crosse localized channel 19, 8, the Tribune. I think there was one in Eau Claire that I put in. Okay. And I assume the videos are also of these news items as well? The -- the what?     #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 14     Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54 Page 40 1 Q 2 3 4 A Q 5 6 7 8 9 10 A Q 11 12 A 14 Q 13 15 16 A 17 18 19 20 Q 21 A 23 Q 22 24 25 A 1 Q A Q 2 3 4 5 6 A Q 7 8 9 A Q 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 A Q A Q A Q 19 20 21 22 A Q 23 24 25 A Q You said you have some articles and some videos that you -Yeah. Copies of like what they aired. Okay. And, again, same instruction, if you want to just keep those and pass them on to your attorney, I may ask for those. Anything else with regard to the files that you just remembered? No. Okay. Going back to what we had talked about earlier, you were on patrol until you became a neighborhood response officer, correct? Correct. And when did you become a neighborhood response officer? Was it like -- I believe -- I think Dan started like a month before me, so he was -- I don't know the exact time. I want to say like winter '13, start of the year '14, in that gap. Okay. So generally the end of 2013, beginning of 2014? Yeah, I want to say that's when it started. You indicated Dan Ulrich started about a month before you did? Yeah. Page 41 Okay. Maybe a couple weeks. Okay. So from 2011 to 2013/'14, you were on patrol? Correct. And you were traffic patrolling individually by yourself? Correct. Did you have any complaints about the La Crosse Police Department from the time you stopped field training until the time you started neighborhood response officer? Did I make any complaints? Yeah. Formal complaints? Yeah. Never like formal written down. Okay. Was it -- did you -- did you make some complaints that weren't formal to the higher-ups at the La Crosse Police Department? To a sergeant. Okay. Who was the sergeant that you had made complaints to? To Craig Olsen. I think it's S-E-N maybe. First of all, do you know when that complaint was    Page 42 1 A 3 Q 2 4 A Q 7 A 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q A Q A Q A 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q A 21 22 Q 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 A Q A Q 5 6 7 8 9 A Q A Q 10 11 A 12 13 14 Q A 15 16 17 Q A 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q A Q A Q 24 25 A made, time frame? No. Okay. Do you remember the -- the substance of that complaint? Yeah. What was the substance? About two officers possibly engaging in sexual behavior in the building. Is this something you witnessed? No. Okay. Not -- not -So it's something that you heard about? Heard about, and she -- a girl worked second shift, her boyfriend worked third shift, they'd be down in the basement, he would -- he would be missing for a while, I think other people, managers, brought it up as well. Okay. So never like a formal complaint, but just like a -- really? Got it. So it -- it was -- I'm going to say a rumor that was kind of floating around the police station, that these individuals were having sex in the building? Page 43 Uh-huh. Yes? Yeah. And that's something you brought to the attention of Sergeant Olsen? Yeah. Do you remember his response? No. Do you remember if there was anything done with regard to this rumor? No. And I think -- I think Officer Rindfleisch also said something about it. Officer -- I'm sorry? I think it's like R-E-I-N-D-F, maybe L-I-S-C-H(sic.), something similar, Rindfleisch. So Officer -I heard that he brought -- he complained about it as well. Okay. The -- the same two officers having sex? Yeah. Who were the two officers, if you recall? Brooke Privet and Steve Pataska. Okay. Is this something that continued on after the complaints or do you think they ended? I don't know.    1 Q 2 A 4 Q 5 A 3 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q A 19 Q 17 18 20 21 A 22 23 24 25 1 2 Q 4 A 3 5 6 7 Q 9 A 8 10 11 12 Q 13 14 15 16 A 17 18 19 20 Q 22 A 21 23 24 25 Q  #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 15     Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54 Page 44 Okay. Any other complaints that you made to anyone prior to becoming a neighborhood response officer? Again, it wasn't like a formal complaint -Right. -- but I was having issues with my field trainer at the beginning because he would leave me in a car when he would go into his girlfriend's apartment for whatever reasons, numerous, numerous nights, so I kind of -- I didn't -- I quasi got questioned/in trouble, like why are you not progressing, why are you not having this and this and this checked off your FTO sheet, and it was because I wasn't really doing anything. So they kind of asked me what was going on. Their excuse was that he's going through a rough patch, he just got a divorce, so that was their response to me. Okay. Which field trainer was this? Andy Rosenow. And -- and who did you speak to with regard to the Rosenow issue? I believe I had to talk to Lisa Barrix about it because I went to her after, so I think -- it stemmed from that, because she looked -- you know, during FTO, you're supposed to have this checked off, this checked off, saying that you're capable Page 45 of handling this, before you go to the next phase. I think I had Andy Rosenow and then Lisa Barrix. Okay. And she was confused as to why I hadn't done any of this or it was -- explained how to deal with some type of things in the book that should have already been done. Okay. So then I went to Joe Smith, who was a lieutenant, and we kind of had to like re -- not restart, but kind of get a new direction on my training. Okay. So you started out with Rosenow, then when you went with Barrix, she looked at your sheet and said hey, you should be farther along, what happened? Yeah. I think what happened is he had me sign off on like -- sign off on a whole bunch of stuff that I had never done, so then when I didn't know how to handle it, she goes back in the book and says well, you've already done it, and I said no -Okay. -- I've never done this, here's my book. So then that's where it came into -- with a lieutenant and what was going on -Okay.    Page 46 1 2 A Q 3 A 5 Q 4 6 7 8 A 9 10 11 Q A 12 13 14 Q 15 16 17 A Q 18 A Q 21 A 22 Q 19 20 23 24 25 A 2 Q 1 3 4 5 A Q 6 A Q 9 A 10 Q 7 8 11 12 13 14 A Q 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A Q A Q A Q 22 23 24 25 A Q -- why are you behind. When you testified that he had you sign off, you're talking about Rosenow? Yes. Okay. So it sounds like you -- also Barrix and Lieutenant Smith got together and put a -- a plan together to get you back up to speed? Yeah. And I think -- I think I had to write a memo about it that should be somewhere. Okay. I mean, this was -- I don't have a copy of that, but -- from my recollection, I think I had to write like what happened, why I was behind or -Okay. But you got caught up and then you entered into the patrol? Correct. Okay. So this didn't delay your development to a patrol position? Delay my development -- delay the process? Yes. No. Okay. So I think we've covered your field training period as well as your period of patrol prior to becoming an NRO with regard to informal complaints that you made? Page 47 Yep. Okay. Anything else that you can recall regarding -Before? Before NRO, any informal complaints? We've got the two we just discussed. I -- yes, that's it before. Okay. Yes. Okay. Now, you indicated that you started as a neighborhood response officer at the end of 2013, beginning of 2014, correct? Yeah. And I'm not going to hold you to it if there -- if there's a -Yeah. -- a definite time somewhere else -Yeah. -- but that's your recollection? Correct. Did you start immediately with officer Ulrich as a partner? Yes. Okay. And I assume Officer Ulrich was your only partner while you were an NRO?     #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 16     Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54 Page 48 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Direct partner, yeah. Okay. And by direct partner, you mean the individual that's in the squad with you? A Yeah. Q Okay. A Because then there was more NRO's and we were like a team, a unit, you know. Q Okay. Who -- who were neighborhood response officers when you first started? A When I first started? Q Yeah. A Dan and I. Q Okay. You indicated there was a -- there was a group of -A When I first started -- me and Dan were the first two. Q Okay. Got it. When did the other NRO officers come on board after you and Dan? A I -- several months later. Q Okay. Who were the other NRO officers that came on board after you and Dan? A Officer Pond, Officer Kamps, with a K. I remember that one for sure, Kamps. Q Ponds and Kamps? A Yeah, Pond and Kamps. Page 49 Q Pond and Kamps. Anybody else become an NRO while you were an NRO other than these two individuals? A Yep. Then they got rid of Kamps and brought on Gerbig. Q When did Gerbig become an NRO? A I have no idea. Q Okay. Was it soon after you became an NRO or a year or so later? A So how long was I an NRO, for a year and a half maybe? Okay. I want to say Kamps was maybe an NRO for just a few -- oh. I don't know how long he was an NRO, just several months. Q Okay. A And then Gerbig came back on, or came on for Kamps. Q All right. A I worked with Dale and Pond I want to say longer than I worked with Pond and Kamps, but I -- I don't recall how long each of them worked. Q And Dale would be Dale Gerbig? A Yes. Q Okay. Okay. MR. RIORDAN: Let's -(Exhibit 1 marked for identification.) BY MR. RIORDAN:    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 50 Q Mr. Poke, I'm going to be handing you what has been identified as Poke Exhibit 1. Could you just review that and tell me what Exhibit 1 entails. Is Exhibit 1 the discrimination complaint that you filed in this case? A Yes. Q It is three pages in total, correct? A Yes. Q And it looks like you signed page 2? MR. OLSON: Actually, I signed it. MR. RIORDAN: I'm sorry. I couldn't read the signature. BY MR. RIORDAN: Q It looks like it's dated December 20, 2016; is that correct? A Yes. Q Okay. And it's -- it's signed by your counsel, correct? A Correct. Q I assume you provided the information to your counsel for this discrimination complaint? A Yes. Q Okay. In looking at this complaint, it's generally indicating that you felt that you were discriminated against because of your race; is that Page 51 correct? A Correct. Q Okay. And the individual or entity that discriminated against you was the City of La Crosse, specifically the police department; is that correct? A Yes. Q At the bottom of page 1, we have the dates of discrimination, we have a beginning date of September 11, 2015 and the most recent discrimination date as August 10, 2016; do you see those dates? A Yes. Q What was the September 11, 2015 event that you felt was discriminatory, if you can recall? A I think that was the day I was removed from NRO. Q Okay. And if that -- if that date doesn't coincide with the time that you reviewed -- removed as a neighborhood response officer, it -- is it the initial event of having you being removed as an NRO that you believe was the initial discriminatory event? A No. Q Okay. Why don't we start out with what you feel the original -- the initial discriminatory event     #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 17     Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54 Page 52 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 was? A Not taking any of my complaints seriously. Q Okay. A Oh, you want to know like the first time I felt like the police department was racist towards me? Q Yeah. A Oh, boy. Not that day. Q No, and I -- that's why I'm asking you. We have a specific date down -- why don't -- why don't you tell me when you first felt that the police department was discriminating against you -A Uh-huh. Q -- that makes up the basis for this claim. A First time -- it probably started with Trenton Bowe calling me and my -- my music jigabooish. Q Trenton Bowe? A B-O-W-E. When the Ferguson incident happened, when the captain wanted to go outside and talk to the press without me -- or didn't want to go out there without me. I'm sorry. Q We got the -- the Trenton Bowe statement? A Yeah. Okay. Captain Lawrence -- so there was the shooting in Ferguson, the -- there was kids at the U -- University of Wisconsin-La Crosse that had Page 53 started -- I don't know if you want to call it a protest, but a march to the police department and were demonstrating outside there. Our captain decided that he was going to go address them and the media, I had no idea about that, previously I had -- think I may have stopped and arrested like three people out of a car, they got drugs and stuff, so I was tied up, I kept getting calls on the radio and on my work phone, the captain wanted me, I couldn't come because I was tied up, he wanted me to come stand by him for the news article strictly because he thought that would help the police department's image. I brought that forward, I had to have a meeting with him about it, where he apologized and gave me this long spiel that he didn't realize that that was insensitive and didn't -- you know, whatever, whatever. Them putting bananas in my friend's locker, them calling my friend a house dog. Tyler Pond telling me the only reason I got the NRO job was because I was black. Let's see -Q So this is the -- the beginning of the discrimination? A Yeah, I had heard stories, but that was like when I started like seeing just how it was.    1 Q 2 3 4 A 5 6 7 Q 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A Q A Q A Q 22 23 24 A 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q 10 11 12 13 14 A Q A Q 15 16 17 18 19 A Q A Q 20 21 A 22 23 24 25 Q A Page 54 Okay. And I -- I didn't mean to cut you off. I thought you were done. Are you -- is there other instances? No, I'm just -- I have purposely pushed this in the back of my head, so you're making me think about uncomfortable stuff. Okay. Well, let me -- let me take some of the instances that you -- you've discussed, and if something pops up in your head, just tell me. I asked you to describe the first instances of discrimination that you felt occurred while at the La Crosse Police Department and you've given me a few, starting out with Trenton Bowe indicating -- or calling your -- your music jigabooish; is that correct? Uh-huh. Yes? Yes. And when did that occur? I mean -I -- I mean -And -- and if you want to put it in I was in field training or I was on patrol or I was an NRO officer? I was on patrol I believe the first time he started saying that stuff. Page 55 Tyler Pond singing -- singing -trying to sing songs and using -- saying nigger out loud, saying that it was cool if he says it because they say it in the songs. All -- we would always have like blue blanket, like go pound the hood, arrest any hood rats that you can find, stop every hood rat that you see driving, just like the context of which they did daily operations. Okay. And I want to get a time frame on all these, so I'm going to go back to the -- the Trent -Trenton Bowe. -- yeah, the Trenton Bowe comment. Uh-huh. You said it happened while you were on patrol; do you remember what year? '13, '14. Okay. So it was right before you became an NRO? Like '12, '13, yeah. Okay. And he just referenced that he felt like your music was jigabooish; is that correct? Yeah -- well, he used that word more than just that, but -Okay. -- he would -- that was like his word for, you know -- other people would say ghetto or whatever,     #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 18     Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54 Page 56 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 he -- he used the word jigaboo. Q Okay. A Like he's a jigaboo, like that was his -- that's his word. Q Okay. That's how he referenced anything African-American? A Right. Q Okay. And you talked about the Ferguson incident with Captain Lawrence? A Uh-huh. Q Yes? A Yes. Q And that was where he asked you to come out with him to talk to the press when the UW-La Crosse students were marching as a result of the shootings in Ferguson? A He didn't want me to talk; he just wanted me to stand by him and smile. Q Okay. So that occurred about the same time as the shootings in Ferguson? A Yeah. Shortly after. Q He -A I believe -- I believe that was the Ferguson shootings. Q Okay. Page 57 A I don't know, I'd have to look at that, the date, or the year. Q But, again, that would have been -A Like -- if I knew when that happened, that would help. Q If we could look back and find out when the Ferguson shootings are, that's about the time that that incident -A Yeah, it's around that -- that time frame. Q Okay. And he apologized to you for using you in this particular way? A Uh-huh. Q Yes? A Yes. Q Okay. You also indicated that there were some instances involving bananas in your friend's locker as well as someone calling your friend a house dog, correct? A Correct. Q Who was the friend you were talking about? A Tony Clark. Q When did the banana incident occur? A I -- I don't know the time frame. '12, '13, maybe '14. Q Okay. I assume that's the same -- about the same    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A Q A Q A 8 9 Q 10 11 A 12 13 14 15 16 Q A 17 18 19 Q A 20 21 22 Q 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 A Q A Q A Q 16 A 18 Q 17 19 20 A 21 22 Q 23 24 25 A Page 58 time frame in which Officer Clark was called a house dog as well? Yep. He was asked to color his skin with a marker. Did -- did you ever get bananas in your locker? No. I had all my stuff taken though. You had all your stuff stolen from your locker? No, I didn't have all my stuff stolen from my locker. I had all my stuff taken from the locker. You're going to have to draw the distinction there for me. So like I wear an outer -- well, I don't know if it was an outer then. Normally like your vest is so hot and wet and sticky, like you either spray it down with like Febreze and hang it. Got it. I feel like if you lock it in a locker, it doesn't air out, so we had hangers, racks -Got it. -- you know what I mean, so I would hang all my stuff up, because -- because I had a hanger right next to my locker. Okay. So you'd hang your -- your vest up after a shift? My vest, my uniform. Okay. Page 59 Yeah. And that was to -- to air it out? Uh-huh. Yes? Yes. And that was taken? Correct. Was it stolen; was it given back; what happened in the end? Oh, I got it -- I got it back, yes. Okay. It was under Troy Nedegaard's desk. Okay. And who took it? Troy Nedegaard. What was the reason for Mr. Nedegaard taking your uniform and vest? Appearance of the locker room he stated. He -- he thought it should be in your locker as opposed to hanging up? Correct, mine in particular and not the other stuff that was hanging up still. Okay. Were there other individuals that hung stuff up as well? Yeah, it was a very common practice. You would find all of the racks hung with jackets, boots on     #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 19     Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54 Page 60 1 Q 3 A 4 Q 2 5 6 A Q 9 A 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q 19 20 21 A 22 23 Q 24 25 A Q 2 A 1 3 4 5 Q A 6 Q 8 A 9 Q 10 A 7 11 12 13 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 14 18 19 Q 20 A 22 Q 21 23 24 25 A top. Okay. Dirty men's locker room. I know -- I know what you speak of. Anybody other -- anyone else's stuff taken at any other time? No idea. Okay. So you don't know if anyone else's things -People would like joke around and move something -you know, somebody would tie your shoes together or somebody would put your badge upside down, so you didn't realize it or -- like look goofy stuff. People wouldn't just remove your items from the locker room so that you were unable to do your job or get dressed or even go help your comrades, God forbid if you needed to, because you didn't have your vest or shirt. Okay. So people would mess with people's stuff, they just went a little further and took your stuff? My stuff was removed from there, brought up two floors and hidden underneath a desk. Okay. And you don't know if that was done with anybody else's gear at any other time, correct? No idea. Page 61 Okay. But that was -- so -I was told he did that because people were coming to look at the building. Okay. What's that word -- oh, what's the word? Accreditation people. Oh, it was -Maybe. So someone from an outside agency? Somebody was coming to look at the department, and he thought that my stuff there gave a bad impression, but not -- this is the reasoning that I was given. Okay. You would have to ask them. Okay. I ran upstairs to the assistant chief's office and started yelling did I get fired. Then you got your uniform back and your vest back and -About an hour later, yeah. Okay. You also indicated another instance where Tyler Pond indicated that you got the NRO job because you were black? Uh-huh.    Page 62 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q A Q A Q A Q 8 9 10 A 11 12 13 14 15 Q 16 17 18 A 19 Q 21 A 20 22 23 Q 24 25 1 2 A 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 3 7 A 9 Q 8 10 11 A 12 13 14 Q A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 15 16 20 21 A 22 23 24 25 Q Yes? Yes. And when did this occur; when did this -Several times. Okay. This wasn't just a one-time event? No. You also talked about blue blankets where everybody would just go out and start arresting people; explain that a little bit more for me if you could? If we had excess people for a day or a specific assignment that whomever thought up, we would do like different details. Whenever they did blue blanket, it would be like a specific area that they wanted you to go. Okay. Was blue blanket a formal term they used or was it just a -- a term that was referenced by the officers? Yeah, I'm sure -- I don't think it was on a piece of paper saying go do that, but -Okay. But when -It was like the term operation blue blanket today, everybody knew what that meant. Okay. So when you had -- I don't want to -- I don't want to say an excess number of people, but when you had more people available, they might say Page 63 okay, we're going to go out and canvass this particular area? Yeah. Okay. And that was blue blanket? Yes. Okay. And they would pick various areas to do this? Normally the same spot. Okay. What was the same -- what was the spot normally? Like Fifth Street -- I would say like Fourth Street to Seventh Street, from Market Street to -- what's the -- to Hood Park, I don't even know what street it is anymore, like a -Okay. -- condensed area. Was it a -- an area of high crime? I mean crime, I suppose. Okay. These blue blankets would be done in other areas at other times? I think I did one on the north side one time. Primarily it was right in that area. Okay. How many blue blankets did they do while you were an officer with the La Crosse Police Department?     #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 20     Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54 Page 64 A Q 3 A 4 Q 1 2 5 6 7 A 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 8 12 13 A 15 Q 14 16 A 18 Q 17 19 20 21 A 23 Q 22 24 25 A 1 2 3 4 5 Q A Q 6 7 8 9 10 A 11 12 13 Q A 14 15 16 17 Q A Q 18 19 20 21 A Q 22 23 24 25 A I don't know, three, four, five. Okay. Like formal ones, yeah. Okay. So when they'd say okay, we're going to focus our attention on this particular area, three or four times over your career that would happen? And I'm looking just for your -Yeah. -- your best recollection. I would say five. Okay. Getting back to Exhibit 1, your -- your complaint, it focuses on your time with Officer Ulrich, correct? Yes. Okay. And this is primarily the basis for your discrimination complaint, correct? Yes. Okay. In your complaint, you indicate that Officer Ulrich engaged in a fair amount of misconduct while you were together as NRO officers, correct? Correct. When did this misconduct by Officer Ulrich begin or when did you first notice it? The first time -- I mean, probably a couple -Page 65 maybe a -- two months, three months after we started riding together. Okay. I just slowly started like picking up stuff. So I'm just going to go back to what you told me about when you started. You indicated you started about end of 2013, beginning of 2014, so you would have started noticing Ulrich's misconduct in, what, end of January or early February? I mean, do you have like the day I started so I could use that to reference or -The day you started -NRO. And then I can maybe have a better mental map. I don't know if I have that. I mean, are -- am I close? To tell you the truth, I don't know. I've forgotten right now. I've got it written down somewhere I'm sure. But in general, and I -A few months after we were partnered together. Okay. So if -- and just as a hypothetical, if you started on January 1, 2014, the misconduct would have -- you would have started noting the misconduct in, what, early February? Yeah, I -- I think he might have started in    Page 66 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q A Q A Q 7 8 9 10 11 A Q A Q 12 13 A 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q 25 February and I started in March or something. Okay. So probably like that summer. But this is -Spring, summer. -- something that -- that happened right away that you started noticing, Ulrich? Yeah. Okay. A few months into it. And what kind of misconduct did you -- did you notice at the beginning? Just that he felt superior. I mean, he violated the policies. He would lift for an hour, two hours a day, he would come in late on the weekends, he would do personal errands in the squad, he'd go to Minnesota to go to the bank, so people didn't see him I mean. During his wedding, I mean, we made probably three, four, five stops so he could go pay for rings, look at this, that and the other and -just like little stuff where I just was like -- you know. And then as you see more and more of it, like that's not right. So it sounds like this violation of police policy by Ulrich was kind of a -- a constant throughout Page 67 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 your -- your time with him as an NRO? Uh-huh. Yes? Yes. Okay. Sorry. It wasn't just one event here, one event there, it was something that would happen all the time throughout your time with -- with Ulrich? A Yeah. Q Okay. Did you ever speak to Officer Ulrich about this and say hey, listen this is not cool that you're violating department -- department policy with me right here? A I don't know if we had like a direct conversation, but the times where like -- he would -- he -- like so you can have like a half hour lunch, you know, he would -- he would go lift for an hour and a half, two hours, and then they would just be like, dude, you can't do that, and he'd do it again, like, dude, you just can't do that. And started perceiving like they don't really care what the hell he does, like you can only get yelled at, you know, so many times without either getting written up or disciplinary action, you know what I mean, so A Q A Q A Q    1 2 3 4 Q A 5 6 7 8 Q A 9 10 11 Q 12 13 A Q 16 A 14 15 17 18 Q 19 20 21 A 22 23 24 Q A 25 1 Q 2 3 4 5 6 A Q A Q 7 8 9 10 A Q 11 12 13 14 15 16 A Q A 17 18 19 20 21 Q 22 23 24 25 A Q  #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 21     Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54 Page 68 like -- the one time I said no to him was when he wanted me to throw this gun in a trash can. Okay. That time I stood up to him and said no. I grabbed it -- I walked over there, and I grabbed it back and said I ain't doing this. Okay. So then I just started feeling like people were like going to be -- you know what I mean? It's like I'm not participating in what you're doing. Okay. When you were talking about Ulrich taking longer lunches to work out, would that happen like three or four times a week? It would be typically on weekends. Okay. Because we didn't have any supervision on weekends, or he'd come late or -So this abuse of the policy regarding lunchtime would usually occur on the weekends with Ulrich when he'd work out? Yeah, because during -- during the week, we would have a meet -- a briefing every morning -Okay. -- so -- or else, you know, our boss would go and then he'd go lift at night or -Page 69 Okay. So he -- he'd skirt around the supervisors to work out? Uh-huh. Yes? Yes. Okay. And I assume these trips to Minnesota to do -- to do his banking were in violation of police policy as well? I would believe so. Okay. And I assume he -- he did so to -- he -strike that. You indicated he did so so people wouldn't see him do his banking; is that correct? I would assume so. So supervisors at the -I believe he said like -- I forget what words he'd say. They can't see us over here or -- I don't know. I don't know if -- I -- you'd have to ask him why he wanted to go to Minnesota to go to the bank. When he said to you that they -- they can't see us over here, he was referring to the -- his supervisors at the police department, I assume? I would assume so. Okay. And so he would try to do this outside of    1 2 A 3 Q 5 A 4 6 7 Q 8 9 10 A Q 11 12 A 13 14 Q 15 16 17 A Q 18 19 A 20 21 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 A 22 1 Q 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 A Q A 9 10 11 12 Q A 13 14 Q 15 16 17 A Q 18 19 20 21 A 22 23 24 25 Q A Page 70 the purview of the La Crosse Police Department? I -- if you're asking me what his intentions -- why he did it, I -- I don't know. Okay. But this was something that -A purposeful event to -- to not be caught would be my assumption as to why he would go to Minnesota. Got it. Okay. And I assume that'd be the same for these stops you made for his wedding as well? Yeah, but those were in -- in Wisconsin, so -Okay. He just stopped to run errands for his wedding? Just -- just personal errands on duty time, that kind of stuff. Did you ever notice this kind of misconduct with anyone else other than Ulrich? Just Andy Rosenow when I was in training. Okay. When we talked about -- what we talked about earlier? Yes? Yeah. So do you want like her name and the address of where I used to be parked when he would leave me and that kind of stuff or just -We'll -- we'll get to that. Oh -We'll get to that. -- okay. Sorry. I just -- that came to me too. Page 71 No, and -- and that's fine. I mean, we might as well cover that now anyways as long as you brought it up. You're talking about Ulrich's fiancée, I assume? What? About her name and -No, no, no. Andy Rosenow, my old trainer, that used to leave me in the car to go sleep with his girlfriend. Sure. What was the girlfriend's name? Her name was Chelsea something. Her, and then there was another address, her name was Valerie. So these were the individuals that the -- Andy Rosenow was stopping off at during your training? Correct. Okay. Back to Officer Ulrich; it -- it sounds like the -- this type of -- of policy violations were occurring on a pretty routine basis while you were with him? Yeah. I mean, like it started out being like that, like minimal stuff. Okay. Bringing girls into the police department from the bar, like --     #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 22     Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54 Page 72 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q So Ulrich was bringing girls into the police department? A I -- I will just say -- I only saw them once, him and Pond brought some girls from the bar into the police department late night. Q And when did that happen? A That was like beginning NRO days. Q Okay. A Maybe before -- it was maybe even like right before we became NRO's. Q Okay. I assume they snuck these girls past -A In the back door, yeah. Q -- past all the supervisors and so forth? A Yeah. If you go in the back door, you can just go straight to the basement. Q Got it. So you -- you saw them do this, this isn't something you -- this isn't -A I saw them walking in. Q Okay. A I think Officer Bowe saw it too. I think we were parked next to -Q And this was prior to your NRO days, correct? A Yeah, it had to be like right before, like right at the early beginnings, like right -- give or take two, three months maybe. Page 73 Q Did you ever complain to anybody about Ulrich bringing in girls? A I just shook my head. (Reporter clarification.) THE WITNESS: I said no, I didn't -- I didn't formally make any complaints, no, I just -MR. RIORDAN: Shook your head? THE WITNESS: -- shook my head and watched. MR. RIORDAN: Okay. BY MR. RIORDAN: Q You also mentioned there was one occasion which you witnessed Ulrich try to dispose of a gun, which you said hey, you can't do that? A Uh-huh. Q Correct? A Yes. Q Tell me about that instance. A He took a BB gun off of -(A discussion was held off the record.) THE WITNESS: I don't know where the -- I can't recall where the gun came from. MR. RIORDAN: Okay. THE WITNESS: At some point he had a gun in -- in the car that for some reason he wasn't    Page 74 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 going to put into evidence or whatever like you should. He drove across the bridge to this like park up in the river, wanted to throw it in a Chinese box in the trash instead of just putting it into evidence. MR. RIORDAN: Okay. BY MR. RIORDAN: Q And your response on this occasion was you can't do that? A Well, he pulled up, the garbage was here, I was on the passenger side, he wanted me to throw it, I got out, he was going to put it in -- I don't remember if I put it in or was sitting there, holding it, thinking, but I came back and said I'm not doing that, and he drove to what would be like the north end of the park and threw it in the trash over there. Q Okay. And what -- what was your response then when he threw it in the trash? A I -- nothing. Q Okay. A Towards the end, we just had animosity and didn't really talk. Q Okay. But this was a BB gun you said? A I believe that one was a -- like a BB or pellet, Page 75 like airsoft cartridge -Q Sure. A -- type gun. Q And you don't remember where he originally got the gun? A I think that one -- I think it was a traffic stop, to be honest, on like Rose Street. I don't remember those streets anymore, just north of the viaduct coming like -Q Okay. A Yeah, Rose Street. Q Okay. A There's like an overpass driving into the north side, and it was like right in there. Q According to your complaint, you -- you finally made the La Crosse Police Department aware of all this misconduct at some point in time; is that correct? A Uh-huh. Q Yes? A Yes, yes. Q Okay. And that was your conversation with Sergeant Dittman; is that correct? A Well, before that, I had a talk with Captain Kudron.     #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 23     Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54 Page 76 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q How do you spell Kudron, I'm sorry? A K-U-D-R-O-N. Q Okay. So you had a -- you had a conversation with Captain Kudron regarding Ulrich's misconduct? A Not specifics. Q Okay. A Just like explaining to him that I wasn't really -it wasn't working out, me working with Dan, just explained like we didn't -- we weren't working, like we weren't very compatible. I think I said something like he's doing stuff that I don't believe in, but I don't want to say -- like I didn't give specifics, I think he kind of like -was like well, I need to know, and I said -- I don't know what I said, like I don't -- I'm not trying to start -- I'm not trying to make it more than it is, or something like that. Q Okay. A I was like -- so at that time, I -- I didn't get like specific in with Captain Kudron, but I brought to his attention that I was unhappy in that situation and was not in the -- what I said, conducive working environment with Dan. Q Okay. When was this conversation with Captain Kudron? Page 77 A Man, this was -- this was maybe -- I -- I don't know. I think it was like -Q Well, you spoke with Sergeant Dittman in -- I think it was August 15, 2015? A Yep, I know -- I remember that. Q Okay. So was this before -A This was before then. Q Okay. I'm sorry, it was August 14, 2015 you spoke with him. A 14th? Q Yeah. A Okay. Q How -- how much before your conversation with Dittman did you speak with Kudron? A I would say a few weeks. Q Okay. And, again, it sounds like you were just telling Captain Kudron that you and Officer Ulrich didn't mesh? A Right. Q Okay. You didn't get into any specifics regarding the misconduct that was going on, correct? A Correct. Q The first time that you talked about the misconduct that you witnessed going on with Officer Ulrich was the conversation with Sergeant Dittman on    Page 78 1 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 2 6 A Q 9 A 7 8 10 11 Q A 14 Q 12 13 15 16 A 17 Q A 20 Q 21 A 18 19 22 23 24 25 Q A 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q A Q A Q 7 8 9 A Q 10 11 12 A 13 14 15 Q 16 17 18 19 A 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q A August 14, 2015; is that correct? First time I -- I talked to a supervisor about it? Yes. Yes. Did you talk to anybody else about this misconduct with Ulrich prior to talking to Dittman? Officers are you saying? Yeah. Yes. I think I talked to Kamps about it, Bowe I think we've talked about it a few times. I used to live with Bowe. Okay. And like family. Okay. The only officers that you talked with regarding Ulrich's misconduct were Kamps and Bowe? Parshall, I'm sure I talked to Parshall numerous times about it. I'm sorry? Heath Parshall. I think it's P-A-R-S-H-A-L-L. Okay. There was a Kyle Houlzhausen that works for West Salem I talked to about it. Your guess is as good as mine. Pronounce it again. H-O-U-L -- I don't think it's a Z, so maybe it's Page 79 like H-A-U-S-E-N maybe. Okay. Kyle Houlzhausen? Holzhausen, yeah. Okay. And he was with what department? West Salem. That's different than the City of La Crosse, correct? Correct. So the -- the individuals that you spoke with that were employed by the La Crosse Police Department were Kamps, Bowe and Parshall? Pond, I talked to Pond. Me and Pond used to -- so I know I talked to Pond about me and Dan. I don't know some of -- I'm not good with names. Were these conversations that you had with the officers more along the lines of the conversation you had with Captain Kudron, like we're not getting along? No. I mean, Pond I -- we used to talk about different instances because he worked with us, but Pond and Ulrich are inseparable. Pond and -Ulrich, Dan. Oh, Ulrich. Got it. Okay. Me and Parshall used to talk about everything     #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 24     Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54 Page 80 1 2 3 Q 4 5 6 A 7 8 Q 9 10 11 12 A Q 13 14 15 A Q 16 17 18 19 20 21 A Q A Q A 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q together. So those guys were more specific. Kudron, it was just -- not as specific. Okay. So the -- you got into specifics with -with -- with Parshall and -- and Pond, and the others were just general, like Kudron? I got into in specific with probably Bowe, Pond, Parshall, Kamps. Okay. And when did these conversations occur in relationship to your conversation with Sergeant Dittman? Quick. Okay. Did you get into specifics about Ulrich violating police department policy? With them? Yeah, with -- with -- with Bowe, Kamps, Parshall and Pond? Yeah. Okay. I would tell them what was going on. Specifically like -I mean, I don't think I would reference that it was a policy violation by any means, but I would -he's doing this or he's taking this or he's stopping people illegally or he's -Okay. Page 81 A -- you know, he's -- he's flipping people and -and making CI's without arresting them or without turning in evidence or drugs that they had on them, circumventing the whole system. I talked to -- I talked to them about that, absolutely. Q Okay. And this was all before your conversation with Sergeant Dittman? A Yes. Q The first time you spoke to a -- a supervisor was your conversation with Dittman though? A Correct. Q About the specifics? A Correct. Q Okay. And so the -- the misconduct by Ulrich was occurring for how many months prior to your conversation with Dittman? A Months -- well -Q Give me -A -- like the big -- like stealing the gun or trying to ditch the gun or taking the drugs or flipping people like that was like three, four months before that, like all -- like -- going to Minnesota or having girls in the room or -- or coming in late or, you know, taking two-hour breaks and stuff, that was almost the whole time.    1 Q 2 3 4 A Q 5 6 7 8 9 A Q A Q 10 11 12 A 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q A 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Page 82 Okay. So the -- I don't want to say the -- the minor stuff, but -Yeah, so it just progressed. -- the -- the minor stuff was going on throughout your entire involvement with -- with Ulrich? Uh-huh. Yes? Just about. And the -- the major stuff with regard to the -the gun and the other things happened, what, three -So at the -- at the very start of us getting to NRO, it was like -- here's what they wanted, they wanted two people that were basically going to go out, arrest the bad dudes, not need a lot of supervision and that could go to these community meetings and like be their spokesperson. Right. At the start, it was way more like -- in front of the cameras, taking pictures here, there, positive PR for the department. When they knew what it was going to morph into, it was like their kick-ass squad is what they said, like -Okay. -- you're going to go arrest these people -- you're Page 83 basically drug investigators without us having to call you that, that's what it focused into. Q Okay. A And as soon as that got more narrow is when he started just doing his own thing. Q Okay. So a few months prior to the conversation with Dittman, that's when the serious misconduct occurred? A Yeah -- yes. Q And we're talking about two, three, four months; how many months? A It's a long -- I think -- I want to know if I was NRO for one or two years. I think it was two years. I would say like four -- four or five months before. Q Okay. That's when the serious stuff took -A Before August, yeah. Q That's when the serious stuff started occurring? A Yeah. MR. RIORDAN: Okay. We've been going about two hours; do you want to take a break? MR. OLSON: Yeah. (Recess taken from 11:54 a.m. until 12:00 p.m.) BY MR. RIORDAN: Q I think we left off before the break talking about    1 2 3 4 5 A Q 6 7 8 9 A Q A 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q 23 24 25 1 A 2 Q 4 A 3 5 6 7 8 9 Q 10 A Q 13 A 11 12 14 15 16 17 Q 18 19 20 A Q 21 22 23 24 25 A Q  #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 25     Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54 Page 84 the fact that the first supervisor you talked with regarding Officer Ulrich's misconduct was Dittman, correct? Yes. Okay. What was that conversation like with Sergeant Dittman on August 14, 2015? What was it like? Yeah. What -- what did you tell him specifically? Basically everything, that there was a trunk full of evidence that he never turned in, there was some pills, there was a little bit of meth, there was a gun, needles, all that crap was in the car, he can take all that because I'm not trying to drive around in a car with all that. I told him that he was stealing stuff, told him that he was flipping CI's without going through that and, you know, throwing drugs away and -- it seemed -- like everything, man. I told him I wasn't trying to risk my career working with a guy that was doing that. You know, he was asking me if I wanted to go back to patrol. Yeah, everything. Okay. What -- what -- strike that. What made August 14, 2015 the time that you decided to go to Sergeant Dittman to speak with him regarding Ulrich's misconduct? Page 85 That was -- that day I cleaned out -- that day I worked and Dan didn't. Okay. So I never drive when it's Dan and I, so I wanted to drive, and me and Dan have different cleanliness expectations, so I cleaned out the car before I started driving, and I found all that stuff in the back. Okay. Did you know that stuff had been in the back of the car prior to August 14, 2015? Not all of that stuff, no. But you knew some of the stuff was back there? Did I know -- I knew that he had a -- that other BB gun in the car, because he kept saying he was going to do it later; pills and drugs and stuff, no. Okay. So you -- you were aware of the be BB gun, you weren't aware of the -- the drugs? Yep. Anything else that you were aware before August 14, 2015 that Dan kept in the car? No. Okay. So there wasn't a particular event that made you decide to talk to Sergeant Dittman, it was just the opportunity that you had the car?    1 A 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q 8 9 10 11 12 A Q A Q 13 14 15 A 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 Q 2 3 A Q 6 A 7 Q 4 5 8 9 A 11 Q 12 A 10 13 14 15 16 17 Q A 20 Q 21 A 18 19 22 23 24 25 Q A Page 86 Yep. I was driving -- we had to go get a key made for the car, I was driving, and I just -- I had like a -- I was going like this, man, I was not enjoying my job, I was getting sick of it, there was a lot of stress, and I just pulled over in this alley and basically came to tears. Okay. Was Sergeant Dittman assigned to you that day? Dittman was always our direct supervisor. Okay. Why was he riding with you that day? We had to go get a key, a key on the north side. Okay. So you took the opportunity to be with Dittman to explain to him what's been going on with Ulrich? Uh-huh. Basically I -- it started with I just was like straight up like what's the policy for you searching our car, and I was like can you somehow search our car? I said I don't -- I'm not trying to have it where like all of a sudden everybody in the department's against me because I spoke up against an officer because -- that's -- it's not exactly common or a -- I guess the word would be a respectable, you know, thing that people do, so I requested that he anonymously search our vehicle and find those items. Page 87 Okay. So it -- it wasn't a common practice for officers to speak up against other officers is what you're telling me? God no. My statement was correct? Correct. Okay. So you took the opportunity to have Dittman search the car because he was going to be in the car with you? No. Dittman was already in the car with me. Right. So I basically used -- what I had found earlier in the day was -- was like my breaking point, but instead of me coming out and saying -- I wanted him to just find this stuff because if you search our car and find that stuff, hopefully you have to then investigate why the heck that's in there -Right. -- and then they can -- you know what I mean? Right. I wasn't worried about that stuff because it wasn't mine. No, no -- and -- and that was a poor question. So I -- yeah, I didn't come and say hey -- I didn't start it like this is what's happening.     #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 26     Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54 Page 88 1 2 Q A 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q A Q A Q 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 A Q A Q A 17 18 19 20 Q A Q 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Right. I started it basically, can you basically find this to investigate what the heck is going on. Right. And -Yeah. -- and my question -Yeah. -- my question was poor. What -- what you did was -- you didn't want to tell him here's what's going on, you wanted him to search the car to find the stuff? Correct. Okay. So in fact you -- you didn't -And that's how I started it. Right. He never searched the car. I -- he went and got the stuff after I told him what was in there. Right. Yeah. So if -- if this opportunity with Dittman wouldn't have occurred, you wouldn't have gone to him on your own and said hey, this is what's happening, here's what we found? I didn't say that. Okay. I -- I'm just asking you. Page 89 A I -- I don't know what my plan was. That was just -- I just kind of had a moment right there and I broke down. Q Okay. A Because I -- he's -- you know. Dittman was my supervisor, I had somewhat respect for him, you know what I mean? Q Sure. A But you got to -- I'm not from there, I don't have family that grew up there, I don't have family that was cops there, like a vast majority of these people do. Q Right. A You know, Dan and Dittman are very good friends, like -- it's just a poor setup, having friend supervisors, you know. So I always felt like I was the oddball out, like -- you know what I mean? Q Yes. A I felt like that from day one, I mean. Q Okay. A In the inception of the police department, you've had three black officers, two of which work here at the exact same time, one everybody has nothing but negative things to say about. You were always an outsider, you know what I mean? Everybody there    Page 90 1 2 3 4 5 Q A 6 7 8 Q A 9 10 11 Q 12 13 14 15 16 17 A 18 19 20 21 Q A Q 22 23 A 24 25 1 2 Q 3 4 5 6 7 A Q A 8 9 10 11 12 Q A Q 13 14 15 A Q 16 17 18 19 20 21 A Q A Q 22 23 24 25 A Q hunts, fishes, wears orange, drives big old trucks, like -- you're -- you know what I mean, like that's not me. Right. So I always was hesitant to speak up about anything, because -You were an outsider? Yeah. Everybody's like -- everybody's married to each other's sister, like it's -- it's weird. You know what I mean, like -So, I mean, you -- you felt like an -- an outsider in this police force because, one, you weren't from the area, you didn't do all the activities that these police officers did, such as hunting and fishing and so forth, you know, and, as well, you were one of two black officers, correct? At this point I think I was one of one. I think I was the only one then. Okay. I think Clark was already gone. Okay. But this is why you felt like the odd man out, for the reasons we just talked about? Yeah. And I -- I -- you've seen that -- other officers go against the grain, what happens to them, and how they get their -- get targeted by Page 91 administration and -So, as you indicated before, speaking up against officer was not very common in this police department, correct? Correct. Okay. And you said you -- you saw -People would talk about people doing bad stuff all the time, it was general knowledge most of the time, but -Between the officers is what you're saying? And a lot of the supervisors. Did you ever talk to any supervisors about other bad things that were happening other than Dittman? No, not directly. Did you ever see any other officers speaking to supervisors about other bad things that were happening? About Dan? Just in general. No. Okay. And I assume you didn't see any other officers talking to supervisors about the bad things that Ulrich was doing, correct? Did I see that? No. Okay. What -- did -- did Dittman talk to you about    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25  #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 27     Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document of 54 Page 92 what he was going to do with this information once he obtained it? A He said he was going to send us an email, that he had went in our car to find something and found that and wanted us to write him a memo as to what that stuff was. I think that's what we decided. Q Okay. A Because he was asking me how to -- how he should bring it forward. Q And he didn't want to implicate you in this? A I told him that I didn't -- that's not what I wanted to do. Q Okay. And he was going to do that for you by writing this email saying I found this stuff, what is this; is that -- was that the plan? A Correct. Q Okay. Did he follow through with that email? A Yes. Q Okay. And -- and you did write an email back to him as well? A Uh-huh. Q Yes? A I don't know if it was -- I think it was a memo. Q Okay. MR. RIORDAN: I think I've got the memo, Page 93 so we'll just mark that. (Exhibit 2 marked for identification.) BY MR. RIORDAN: Q Mr. Poke, I'm going to hand to you what's been marked as Poke Exhibit 2. It looks like a memo dated September 1, 2015 from you to Captain Melby; is that the memo we're talking about? A Nope. Q No. Different? A Different. Q Okay. Was this memo directly to Dittman? A Correct. He didn't cc anybody on it. This -yeah, this is different. Q Okay. A I'm -- I'm fairly certain it was a memo. It could -- it could have been an email, but I'm pretty sure it was a memo. Q Okay. But you responded to Sergeant Dittman either through email or memo? A Yes. Q Okay. Do you know if Ulrich responded to him as well? A Yes. Q Okay. So he sent a -- a memo as well -A Yes. Page 94 1 Q 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 A Q A Q A Q 9 10 A 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q A Q A Q A 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A -- or an email? Did you read Ulrich's memo or email? At that time? At any time. I think I got a copy of it -- no. I did read it. You did read it? Yes. Would it have been about the time that Ulrich sent the email or memo? Yeah. So that -- so the day that this happened, he was not at work, right -The August --- Dan was not at work. Right. -- August 14, 2015? Yes. Okay. So he sent an email -- we got work phones that we always had to carry, so I'm sure Dan got the email right away. Dan texted me saying something like did you get the memo from Dittman? And then he said something to the effect of I already have my story figured out what I'm going to tell him, something like that. Okay. Those text messages were photographed, Page 95 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 screenshotted and they took them to the police. Okay. Who took them to the police? This day, this day -MR. OLSON: Wait. When you point at something -THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm sorry. MR. OLSON: -- and say this day -THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. September 1. MR. RIORDAN: Okay. Thank you. THE WITNESS: I-- well, it might have -is it -- I don't know if September 1 is the day that I had to meet with Kudron. The day that I was removed formally from being an NRO -MR. RIORDAN: Right. THE WITNESS: -- I allowed Captain Melby and Captain Kudron to take photographs of those text messages. MR. RIORDAN: Okay. THE WITNESS: So I won't use a specific day, I don't know what day that was, but -- on that day that they reassigned me together -MR. RIORDAN: Okay. THE WITNESS: -- is the day that they took pictures of that too. BY MR. RIORDAN: Q A Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 28 of 54 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 96 Q And you had the text messages on your phone? A Correct. Q And that's what they took pictures of? A Correct. Q Okay. A I think it's verbatim somewhere. Q Okay. So you either drafted a memo or emailed a response to Sergeant Dittman a day or so after his email to you, correct? A Yeah, it -- within a day. I think it might have been that same day. It was like one page -- or one line. Q Okay. What was that one line to Dittman? A Something like I don't know anything about the items that are in the car. Q Okay. A Something similar to that. Q Okay. So you didn't detail any information to Dittman per your agreement with him? A Right, because I had already talked about it with him in the car. Q Okay. Do you remember if Ulrich, in his email or memo to Dittman, explained what happened or why all that stuff was in the car? A Uh-huh, yep. Page 97 Q He did? A Yep. MR. OLSON: Try to say yes or no. THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm sorry. MR. RIORDAN: That's okay. You're covering your mouth, and that's -THE WITNESS: Yeah. MR. RIORDAN: -- difficult for her to -THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Yes. BY MR. RIORDAN: Q What do you recall that memo or email said? A I -- some long -- something like the things had no evidentiary value, he -- he took the gun off of somebody for safekeeping or something and forgot to book it into evidence, something like he couldn't figure out what those pills were or something. He had a nice lengthy reasoning for them. Q Did you agree or disagree with his explanation as to why that -- why that material was in the car? A Disagree. Q With -- with just about everything in the text message or -- or memo? A No, the text message just told me he already came up with -Q Oh. A Q 3 A 1 2 4 5 Q 6 A Q 9 A 10 Q 7 8 11 12 13 A Q 14 15 16 A Q 17 18 19 20 A Q 21 A Q 24 A 25 Q 22 23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 A Q A Q A Q A 9 10 11 12 Q 13 14 15 16 17 A Q 18 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 19 23 A 25 Q 24 Page 98 -- his story of -Got it. -- his lie. What he put in his thing I disagree with, yes. Okay. With the memo he gave on to -- to the supervisors? Uh-huh. Yes? Yes. Okay. It didn't comport with what you actually saw or witnessed Ulrich doing? What do you mean? The -- the information that Ulrich submitted to Dittman -Yep. -- explaining why the stuff was in the car, it -that didn't jibe with what you actual saw happened; is that correct? Correct. Okay. Did you file a -- any follow-up with Dittman saying no, no, this is not what happened? No. Nobody talked to me about it -Okay. -- after that. Okay. And -- and you didn't supply any additional Page 99 information? To Dittman? Yes. No. My statement is correct? Correct. Okay. In -- in going back to -I didn't know what was going on. I already told them what was going on, so I had no idea what -after I wrote that, nobody asked me for any further information. Okay. In -- in your complaint, going back to it, in a general sense, you're indicating that once you made these complaints about Ulrich, that you then became a focus of investigation; is that correct? Correct. When did you learn that you had become the focus of an investigation? The day I was reassigned. The day you were taken off NRO? Correct. Okay. And -- did someone tell you that you were the subject of an investigation on that date? Yes. And who told you that? Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 29 of 54 Page 100 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Captain Melby and Captain Kudron -- no. Captain Melby and -- yeah, Kudron. MR. RIORDAN: This might help, so -(Exhibit 3 marked for identification.) BY MR. RIORDAN: Q Mr. Poke, we've marked as Exhibit 3 a memo it looks like that you wrote to Dr. -- to Captain Melby. It looks like it's August 31, 2015, and I think it's the day that you were taken off of NRO. If you would review that for me, I would appreciate it. The -- Exhibit 3, could you explain to us what that is? A A memo -- that's the memo that I had to write answering those two questions. Q Okay. And Exhibit 3 is dated August 31, 2015, correct? A Correct. Q And it's a memo from you to Captain Melby, copying in Captain Kudron, correct? A Correct. Q And this would have been the date that you were removed as a neighborhood response officer, correct? A Yes. Q Okay. So that would have been the day you learned Page 101 about the investigation into you, into your conduct, correct? A Correct. Q Okay. And it was Captain Melby that informed you that you were being investigated? A Him and Kudron, during that conversation. Q Okay. They were both in this -- in this meeting? A Yes. Q Okay. Did they indicate to you what you were being investigated for? A I think these. Q The items that are -- that are set forth in the memorandum? A Just these two things, yeah. Q Okay. And they had asked you to -- to explain what had happened on the two instances that are set forth in the memo? A Yep, correct. Q Okay. Did they ever talk to you about being investigated for a delay in reporting misconduct of Ulrich? A Nope. That was brought up by Abraham -Q Okay. A -- during a conversation I had with him. Q When did -- that's the -- Assistant Chief Abraham? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Page 102 Yep -- yes, sir. When did he tell you that you were being investigated for a delay in notifying the police department about Ulrich's misconduct? A I was never notified I was being investigated for that. Q Oh, okay. A I was told that it was bullshit that I didn't come forward right away, and then told that you know it could be a violation that you never came forward. Q Okay. A He was basically pissed off. He said you can't drop a black box on the department like this, something to that effect. Q And these are conversations you had with Abraham? A Correct. Q And when was that conversation? A After this day, after this August 31. It would have been -- after I was reassigned, because I went into his office after -- I think I went in the office twice. Q We -- let me see if I can put this in perspective to help you out. A Uh-huh. Q You were put on administrative leave on Page 103 September 17, 2015, correct? A Maybe that's the date. Q Okay. Well -- did you have this conversation with Assistant Chief Abraham prior to being put on administrative leave? A Yes. Q Okay. So it was sometime after August 31, 2015 and sometime before you were put on administrative leave that you had the conversation about the delay in reporting misconduct? A Yep. It was -- it was prior to Dan being on -- on administrative leave, but during this little window that they put him on a desk duty. Q Okay. Let's do -- let's do this, maybe get some better time frames. A Yeah. (Exhibit 4 marked for identification.) BY MR. RIORDAN: Q Mr. Poke, I'm going to hand you what's been marked as Poke Exhibit 4. Could you review that, please. A Yes. Q Exhibit 4 is your notification that you're being placed on administrative leave, correct? A Correct. Q And it looks like you were placed on administrative Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 30 of 54 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 104 leave on September 17, 2015; is that correct? A Well, which one is this? I was first placed on a nondisciplinary leave by the mayor's office and by HR. I was then subsequently later placed on a different leave when I was already on leave. (Exhibit 5 marked for identification.) BY MR. RIORDAN: Q Mr. Poke, I'm going to hand you what's been marked as Poke Exhibit 5. Could you review that and then just identify that for me, please. A Okay. Yes. Q Okay. Exhibit 5 is a note from human resources to you from a Wendy Oestreich; is that correct? A Correct. Q The letter is dated September 18, 2015; is that correct? Exhibit 5, the date on Exhibit 5 is -A No, I'm just comparing as to why I would have received this after -- yes. Q Okay. So the -- the date on Exhibit 5 is September 18, 2015? A Correct -- well, yes, that's when it was dated. Q Okay. It's indicated that it was delivered to you in person; is that correct? Underneath your name. I mean, that's what the letter says? A That's what it says, yes. Page 105 Q Do you recall having this delivered to you in person? A No. Q Okay. It indicates in Exhibit 5 that this letter is to confirm that on Saturday, September 12, 2015, under the mayor's authority, you were placed on paid administrative leave due to your workplace concerns, correct? A Yes. Q Okay. So you had gone to the mayor prior to September 12, 2015 and made some complaints about the workplace; is that correct? A Correct. Q Okay. And it looks like the -- the mayor put you on paid administrative leave due to your concerns, correct? A Correct. Q And it looks like the leave started on September 12, 2015; is that correct? A Correct. Q Okay. A September 11 was my last day of working. Q Okay. So in Exhibit 4 -- do you have that there? -- you were put on administrative leave from the -A So this was nondisciplinary, then this is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 106 disciplinary. Q Okay. So Exhibit 5 was non -MR. OLSON: When you say this -THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. MR. OLSON: -- and hold up a paper, the transcript can't tell what you're holding up. THE WITNESS: Sorry. MR. RIORDAN: Which is why I'm going to get -MR. OLSON: So you have to refer to these by exhibit number. BY MR. RIORDAN: Q So Exhibit 5 was a nondisciplinary -A Voluntary leave, yes. Q Okay. So you voluntarily left the police department, and that's evidenced by Exhibit 5, correct? A Correct. Q Okay. And the mayor allowed you to do so? A Correct. Q So Exhibit 4 is the disciplinary leave of absence that you talked about earlier, correct? A Correct. Q So if -- if I'm remembering this correctly, I think you testified that Assistant Chief Abraham informed Page 107 you that you were being investigated for your delay in notifying the police department about Ulrich's misconduct after August 31, 2015, but before you were placed on nondisciplinary -A No. Q -- leave? A What I said was that he never informed me -Q Okay. A -- that I was being investigated. During our conversation I will call it, he stated that that was a policy and that -- he said that it was a policy. He never said I was under any investigation for that. Q Okay. So the only investigation that you were aware of into your conduct involved the information that is set forth in Exhibit 3, correct? A At -- at what point? Q Just in -- in general. MR. OLSON: You mean ever, going right up to the spring of the following year? MR. RIORDAN: Yeah. I just -- just so we can get a basic question. I mean, I understand -I understand that there was -THE WITNESS: No. At -- at a later date, I was informed of several other -- Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 31 of 54 Page 108 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. RIORDAN: Okay. THE WITNESS: -- issues that they brought forward. MR. RIORDAN: Okay. BY MR. RIORDAN: Q So -- but the -- but the first time that you were aware of any investigation into your conduct -A Was these two questions. Q -- was the questions that are set forth in Exhibit 3? A Correct. Q Okay. So the first time you figured out you were being investigated was on August 31, 2015, for the -- the conduct that is set forth in the memo in Exhibit 3? A Correct. Q Okay. You had this conversation with Assistant Chief Abraham regarding the delay in misconduct sometime after August 31, 2015, but before you were placed on nondisciplinary leave; is that correct? A Yes. Q Okay. And that's when he told you hey, you should have come forward with these issues and you've dropped a black box on us? A I went -- I talked to Abraham twice. Page 109 Q Okay. A Once was -- once was this day, September 1, okay? Q Okay. A Well, it may not have been September 1. Once was close to September 1, I went in there and -- and asked, you know, what is going on. Q Okay. A He -- that is the time that he told me that I was dropping this black box on the department, this, that and the other and why would I hold on to stuff for so long, this, that and the other. I went and I talked to Abraham another day, a day after there was a shooting, somebody got shot and killed, there was a vigil at the park on Jackson and West Avenue. I went back -- because I was pissed off because Dan Ulrich was at that vigil in plain clothes with Dittman while Ditt -- or while Dan was supposed to be on desk duty at the department. Q Okay. A Okay. So I was pissed off and went up there because why the hell is Dan Ulrich, A, still in the NRO unit; two, at a vigil when you're on desk duty and in plain clothes, when I thought you -- you're supposed to be in the office? So that's when I went back up there and said what the heck is going 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q 14 15 16 17 A Q 18 19 20 21 A 22 23 24 Q A 25 1 2 3 Q A 4 5 Q A 8 Q 6 7 9 A 11 Q 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 A Q A Q A Q 19 20 21 A Q 22 23 24 25 A Q Page 110 on? I said how is Dan -- how am I reassigned and Dan still gets to do all this other stuff? And then I was told I should be happy that I -- I'm not on the wood like Dan, basically benched, he has to be on desk duty, and I said well, no, he's not benched, because he's out in public at community events still, as a member of this unit. What are you talking about? You know, so I went and disputed with him as to why I got automatically removed from NRO, but yet Dan still was, and then two, three days later I kept getting in trouble and then I was no longer working. Okay. So the -- the second conversation you had with Abrahamson -- Or Abraham occurred before you were put on administrative leave? Yes. Oh, yeah, I haven't talked to him since. Okay. So the two conversations with Assistant Chief Abraham occurred after August 31, 2015 but before you were put on administrative leave in September, correct? The first time I talked to him was a day or two after August 31. Okay. The last time I talked to him was -- September 11 was my last day of working, so probably five or six Page 111 days before that. Okay. Because after I had that conversation with him is when I all of a sudden started to get in trouble for every action I did at the department. Okay. After the second conversation? Correct. Okay. And that's when you started to get in trouble for everything you were doing? Correct. Okay. You indicated that Ulrich was placed on desk duty? Correct. When was he placed on desk duty? I -- I don't know. Do you know why he was placed -Several days after the 31st. Okay. -- do you know why he was placed on desk duty? I have an assumption, but I -- I don't know. Okay. No one ever told you why he was placed on desk duty? No. You also indicated that he was put on administrative leave; is that correct? Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 32 of 54 Page 112 1 2 3 4 5 A Q A Q A 6 7 Q 8 9 A 10 11 Q 12 13 14 15 16 17 A Q A Q A 18 19 Q 20 21 22 23 24 A Q A Q 25 1 2 3 A Q 6 A 7 Q 8 A 4 5 9 10 11 12 Q A 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q A Q A Q 19 20 21 A Q 22 23 24 25 A Q Correct. When was he put on administrative leave? The same day, the 17th. September 17? I think his was the 18th, because I think his dad died on the 17th or something. About the same time you were placed on administrative leave? We were both, yes, placed on disciplinary leave on the same 48-hour span. Okay. Do you know why he was placed on disciplinary administrative leave? No. Okay. No one ever told you? No. Okay. I mean, I assume from the stuff I brought forward, but that -Okay. But, I mean, no one came to you and said this is why Ulrich's on desk duty -No. -- or this is why Ulrich's on administrative leave? Correct. Okay. The second conversation you had with Assistant Chief Abraham regarding Dan being at a -Page 113 a vigil was you indicating to him why is Dan at this vigil, he's supposed to be on desk duty, right? Correct. He was in plain clothes at the vigil? Correct. He wasn't in -- he wasn't in uniform? Well, I take that back. Dittman would have been probably in plain -- I don't remember -- I don't remember if Dan was in uniform or not. Okay. I -- I take that back. I can't for sure say that he was in plain clothes. Okay. But he was with Dittman? He was with Dittman at the vigil. Okay. On the side. Was -- was Dittman on duty, if you know, at that time, during the vigil? No idea. Okay. Did you know if Dan was on duty at that time during the vigil? No idea. Okay. If he wasn't on duty, could he have shown up at the vigil? I'm -- just asking. 1 A 2 3 Q 4 5 6 A 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q 13 14 15 A 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q 8 A Q 11 A 9 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q 18 19 20 21 A Q 24 A 25 Q 22 23 Page 114 I'm sure he -- it is very possible that he could have went there, yes. All right. But he shouldn't have been at the vigil if not -- if he was under discipline is what your statement to Abrahamson -- Abraham was, correct? My statement was if you're on desk duty -- yeah. Because he's out going to lunch with these guys, I'm seeing him drive around all the time doing -do -- he was doing another detail, so I said if you're on desk duty, why do you get to still participate in these things? Okay. So your -- your criticism to Assistant -- to the assistant chief was hey, listen, Ulrich's on desk duty, why is he doing these normal activities? No. My criticism is why the heck is he still -why is he not on leave? Why is he still working was my thing? I just brought forward drugs and guns and lies that he gave you, anybody else, you would have done -- this is exactly what I've been telling him, anybody else, or if that was me, I wouldn't be at work. And I said furthermore, the things that you guys said I did, these two questions, compared to what Dan did, how am I removed from my position and he still holds his position? And his response was be happy that Page 115 you're not on desk -- or you're not riding the wood, like he is, and I said that's bullshit, he's not riding the wood, he's still working, he's going to these vigils, he's doing A, B and C, and that's why it's -- that's -- because I'm still working, so I'm seeing him out and about. Okay. So you were -- after August 31, 2015, you were back on patrol? From -- at -- I don't -After you were removed from -After I was removed, I think I went home for the day. I believe the 1st was my first day back. Before I had to go out on the street, I had to write this memo. I don't know how many days, but I worked from September 1 to September 11 on patrol, with days off somewhere in between. Okay. So are you -- you were out on patrol, Dittman was allegedly -- or I mean -- excuse me. You were out on patrol, Ulrich was allegedly on desk duty during this period of time, before September 17? Correct. Okay. What is your understanding of desk duty? My understanding? Yes. Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 33 of 54 Page 116 1 A 2 3 4 5 6 Q A 7 8 Q 9 10 11 A Q 12 13 14 15 A Q 16 17 18 19 A Q 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A You're sitting at the desk taking calls, taking report calls or -- not doing anything with the public, I mean -- suspended with still being able to come and sit. Okay. Is he -Because we don't have like a front desk that cops sit at. Right. But it's your assumption that being placed on desk duty is some type of discipline, correct? Yes. Okay. And that there is some expectations as to what you're supposed to be able to do and not do while on desk duty, correct? Correct. Okay. So you're not supposed to be acting in your regular assignment when you're on desk duty; that's your assumption, correct? Correct. Okay. So that was your complaint to the assistant chief, that hey, I was removed from the neighborhood response officer position, but Ulrich has only been placed on desk duty? No. My complaint is why is he still working. In general? In general. Page 117 Q Got it. A Why is he -- not -- I don't expect that he's going to get fired with a five-day notice, but why are you not on leave. Q Okay. But you weren't on leave as well, at the time? A Was I on a leave? Q Yeah. A No. Q Okay. A But I wouldn't assume that these fictitious things would hold the same level of discipline as somebody stealing and -- and holding on to evidence and -and admitting to lying to their supervisor. Q When -- when you -- again, when you talk about these things, we're talking about -A Exhibit 3. Q -- we're talking about the items that are set forth in Exhibit 3? A Correct. Q You wouldn't expect those to qualify you for desk duty? A I wouldn't qualify these as being suspended immediately. Q Okay. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 118 A The things that I brought forward on Dan, I would definitely hope so, yes. Q Okay. Did someone ever tell you why Ulrich was not suspended immediately after you made the complaints? A No. (Exhibit 6 marked for identification.) BY MR. RIORDAN: Q Mr. Poke, I'm going to hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 6. It's an order to draft memo dated -it looks like August 31, 2015. Could you review that, please. This is a -- Exhibit 6 is an order to you from Captain Melby; is that correct? A Correct. Q It's dated August 31, 2015, correct? A Correct. Q And it's asking you to set forth in full description the conversation you had with Sergeant Dittman on April 14, 2015, correct? A Correct. Q And this order, which we have as Exhibit 6, you complied with by drafting your memo to Captain Melby dated September 1, 2015, which is Poke Exhibit 2, correct? Page 119 A Correct. Q Okay. Exhibit 2, the items set forth in this memo by you, that's the entire context of the conversation you had with Dittman on the 14th; is that correct? A From what I can remember. Q Okay. So all the events that you set forth in Exhibit 2 occurred prior to August 14, 2015, correct? A Can you say it again. Q Sure. Let me try it this way, you were asked by Captain Melby to memorialize your conversation that you had with Sergeant Dittman on August 14, 2015, correct? A I was asked -- can you say it one more time. Q Sure. I'm sorry. A I was reading. Q Sure. That was -- that's okay. In -- in Exhibit 6, you were asked by Captain Melby to put down your entire conversation that you had with Sergeant Dittman on August 14, 2015, correct? A Correct. Q So all the items that you listed in Exhibit 2 were events that occurred prior to August 14, 2015 when you talked with Sergeant Dittman, correct? Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 34 of 54 Page 120 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Yes. Okay. Did you speak with Captain Melby or anybody else regarding your September 1, 2015 memo which we've marked as Exhibit 2? A Did I talk to anybody else about this? Q Yes. A Like a supervisor? Q Yes. A I believe I gave a copy of this to the mayor. Like was I asked to have follow-up about it are you asking? Q Well, first of all, did you provide this memo to anybody else other than Melby, and you indicated that you gave a copy to the mayor; is that correct? A I believe the mayor has a copy of this. Q Okay. Did you personally give the mayor a copy of this memo which is Exhibit 2? A I either gave it to him or to Wendy during our -when I met with the mayor, it was with Wendy. Q Okay. And that's the HR person? A Correct. Q Okay. And that was later on in September, correct? A Correct. Q Right before the -A This was between September 1 and September 11. Page 121 Q Okay. A No, I -- I -- not between those dates. I met with Wendy after September 11, I believe. Q Okay. Okay. Okay. When -- when did you meet with the mayor? A I think twice. Q Do you remember the dates? A I do not. Q Okay. You were put on -MR. RIORDAN: I'm sorry. MR. OLSON: Was it the day you were put on leave by the mayor? BY MR. RIORDAN: Q Yeah, I was going to just talk to you about Exhibit 5, which is the letter from Wendy Oestreich indicating to you that you were placed on nondisciplinary administrative leave on September 12, 2015. Could that have been the date that you met with the mayor, September 12, 2015? A Yes -- well, I think it -- it was before this date, because I think he told me over the phone not to -that I was okay to not go to work on that day. Q Okay. So you had requested not to go back and the mayor agreed? A Excuse me? 1 Q 2 3 A 4 5 6 7 Q A 8 9 10 11 Q A Q 12 13 14 A Q 15 16 17 18 A Q 19 20 A 21 22 23 Q A 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q A 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q A 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q Page 122 You had requested not to go back to -- to work and the mayor said fine, don't go back to work? I don't know if I requested it. Not going back to work until they could look at what was going on was a -- was something that we discussed. Okay. Yeah. I wouldn't -- I don't think I requested to -Okay. -- not go to work. But you -- you agreed that that was the best course of action? Correct. Okay. So your conversation with the mayor would have been sometime very close to September 12, 2015? Say it again. Your conversation with the mayor would have been sometime close to September 12, 2015? One of the times. I believe another -- I believe the first time was before that. Okay. Because I had brought him all the things that they were saying I did wrong or writing me up for, and I said I told you that I -- or I said I -- I told you Page 123 that this was going to happen, that they were going to retaliate against me, and that's when that decision was made. So I had talked to the mayor and Wendy on more than one occasion. Okay. But it -- I must have, on the 12th or 11th, after being -- what happened to that paper? The 11th -the 11th was my last working day, that's when I had received my last like you did something wrong thing. Okay. And that -- and I had brought that stuff forward, saying I told you that this was going to happen, and they were like well, until we -- you know, then that's when that decision was decided upon, that I would not be going back to work until they could look at what the heck was going on. Got it. This first occasion when you talked to the mayor and Wendy in HR and -- and brought them information -Uh-huh. -- what -- what information did you bring them? I explained what was going on. Specifically like what -- did you -- like what pieces of paper or what documents did you bring the Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 35 of 54 Page 124 1 2 A 3 4 5 Q 6 7 8 A 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q 15 16 17 A Q 18 19 A 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 Q 2 3 4 A 5 6 7 8 Q A Q 9 10 11 A Q 12 13 14 A 15 16 17 18 Q A 19 20 21 Q A 22 23 24 25 Q mayor? I -- I don't recall if I brought papers that day or if I just verbally explained what was going on. I -- I don't recall. Okay. Did you ever provide either Wendy or the mayor with any documentation about what was going on with you at the police department? I brought them -- I believe I gave them a copy of like the -- the -- of -- of Exhibit 2, I -- I believe I gave them a copy of this, and I believe I gave them a copy of -- possibly No. 3, but -- like the write-ups, the -- the things that I'm -telling you what I did wrong. Okay. So the -- the notices that you received from the police department? Correct. Okay. Do you remember specifically which notices you gave them or was it a number or -I think it was -- because I -- and when I initially met with them, I anticipated what was going to happen, I said watch, and that -- and then I think that's why I brought them the papers at the end. I think it was the Lenell Carter -- the phone issue -- I don't -- I can't recall the -- the stuff I gave them. Page 125 Okay. So it's only two occasions which you spoke to the mayor, and we've covered those two occasions; is that correct? In person. And then I believe I talked to him on the phone one time. Okay. That Saturday, the 12th of September. Okay. That's when he told you about being placed on nondisciplinary administrative leave? Correct. Okay. So have we covered all the conversations you've had with the mayor regarding the alleged discrimination claims? No. I spoke with the mayor a couple other times because I hadn't -- I spoke with the mayor several times after I was placed on leave on the 12th. Okay. Because I even completed a DWI report in his office. A DWI report being what? I -- I think I arrested somebody for drunk driving on like the 10th or 11th and blue stamped the report, which meant it needs -- I'll do the report later, my next shift or something. Okay. 1 A Page 126 Obviously since she was arrested and charged, at 2 some point I needed to do that report, which had 3 not been done prior to me being on leave, so they 4 requested that I come in to get the report 5 completed so that she could be charged. 6 Q 7 A Got it. So -So I know I -- I know I spoke with the mayor after that day. 8 9 Q So -- but the DWI report has nothing to do with the 10 discrimination claims, they just wanted you to 11 finish up some paperwork? 12 A Correct. 13 Q Okay. That's where my confusion -- 14 A Yeah. 15 Q -- lies. 16 A Yeah. 17 Q Okay. So those are the -- those are all the 18 occasions that you spoke with the mayor regarding 19 your discrimination claims? 20 A And Wendy. 21 Q And Wendy. 22 A I spoke with her several times too. 23 Q 25 A 1 2 Q 3 4 5 A 6 7 Q 8 9 10 A Q 11 A Q 14 A 15 Q 12 13 16 17 18 19 20 A Q 23 A 24 Q 21 22 25 Okay. When was the first time that you brought these concerns to Wendy, the HR person? 24 Sometime between September 1 and September 11 would Page 127 have been my first time. Okay. And it sounds like you had a couple conversations with -- with Wendy regarding your concerns, correct? Yeah. I met with -- I talked with her several times. Okay. In between the September 1 and September 11 time frame? Yes. Did you ever provide her with documentation or fill out any forms for her? I do not recall. Okay. But I met with her before I met with the mayor. Got it. Now, throughout this deposition, we've gone over a lot of your contacts with supervisors in the police department as well as Wendy in HR and the mayor, have -- have we hit all the contacts that you've had with those individuals that we just -- that I just raised? With the supervisors? Yeah. Regarding like this time frame? Regarding all the -- the complaints that you had regarding discrimination, yeah, in this -- in the Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 36 of 54 Page 128 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 time frame these -- of all the exhibits, yes. Okay. I'll tell you what, I'll make it easier. Let's strike that question. Have we covered all the conversations you've had with supervisors at the police department since your initial contact with Sergeant Dittman in -- on August 14, 2015? A I talked to Sergeant Blokhuis I believe on the 17th, I think that's who served me this. Q The -- Exhibit -A Exhibit 4. Q Okay. A I got -- I got two of these though, because -MR. OLSON: Do you want to say the exhibit. THE WITNESS: I got two Exhibit 4's, two different leaves, because on the first one I had to come into the department and sign to turn in my gun and turn in my badge and whatnot, and then I believe I had to meet them a second time to sign a different form at a boat launch behind the Kwik Trip. MR. RIORDAN: Okay. BY MR. RIORDAN: Q Were -- were they all about the same time, the Page 129 September 17, 2015 time frame? A Yeah, in the -- in that 10-, 15-day stretch. Q Okay. But they all involved the disciplinary administrative leave? A Yes. Q Okay. And you said there's other forms you filled out, one to turn in your gun and badge; is that correct? A Yes. Q And you said there was another form that was filled out behind a boathouse? A A boat -- like a boat launch -Q A boat launch. A -- where you put it in the water. Q Okay. What was that for? A It -- I -- I thought it was similar to this. Q So Exhibit -A To Exhibit 4. Q Okay. A It had a different date maybe, or something -something got amended or they added a different rule or -Q Okay. A I'm not sure, because on that date, I asked Sergeant Blokhuis like what was going on, and is 1 2 3 4 Q 5 6 A 7 8 9 10 Q A Q 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Page 130 this bad? And he said well, you should get a lawyer, that it could be criminal against you, something to that effect. Okay. Do you have that documentation in the documents that you've gathered? I -- I would have to look. I don't know what I all -Okay. -- do and don't have. Okay. Again, if you have that document, so those two papers that we just discussed, if you could provide them to your attorney. Sure. Thank you. We've gone through a lot of -- of documents and a lot of issues that you've raised here; what -- what I want to specifically know about now is, how do you feel that you've been treated differently as opposed to a white officer or how do you believe that you've been discriminated against by the City of La Crosse Police Department? MR. OLSON: I'm going to -- yeah. I'm going to make an objection for the record that it calls for a legal conclusion on the part of the witness. Page 131 But you should answer as best you 1 2 can. MR. RIORDAN: Yeah, I'm just looking 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for -MR. OLSON: Yeah. MR. RIORDAN: -- I don't want -- I'm looking for your -THE WITNESS: Sure. MR. RIORDAN: -- thought process. I'm not looking for a legal opinion from you. THE WITNESS: Sure. BY MR. RIORDAN: Q I just want to know why do you feel you were discriminated against by the police department? A Because I've seen countless white officers violate policy, violate the law and do numerous things that have either been brushed under the rug, gotten zero to minimal discussion or discipline about. You know, I take a poop in an alley and they want to fire me? My -- my friend prioritizes a different call ahead of him after he makes a complaint about them, you know, being -- have -- having a prejudice against him, and then they're -- they attack him and fire him, same thing happened to me, like the two black officers that speak up for themselves get Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 37 of 54 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q A 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Page 132 attacked and -- and ridiculed and -- and fired over the white officers. Dale Gerbig, you -- right before this all happened drove his car drunk and got in a crash. What did the chief do? Sent out an email to the other chiefs involved after another chief found out about it, saying if anybody has any hit-and-runs, just let us know, you know what I mean, like -- people -- people having sex on duty, my FTO leaving and having sex on duty, people coming to work drunk that have to get PBT'd and -and fail their PBT's and get sent home. All -- all these white officers are doing these kind of things and nothing is happening. Okay. But then the moment -- first my friend does something wrong after he speaks up for himself, they target him and fire him; the moment I speak up against somebody doing something, instead -instead of -- instead of looking at anything that I did, they want to come attack me, for -- the -- the chief of police asked the BCA to investigate me, to do their investigation against me. Okay. The BCA, that's like the state version of the FBI. MR. OLSON: You mean the DCI? Page 133 THE WITNESS: Or DCI. In Minnesota, it's the BC -- I'm sorry, I work in Minnesota. MR. RIORDAN: That's okay. I was going to ask the same question. THE WITNESS: The -- the -- the chief asked the DCI to do my investigation, investigate me, for -- for taking a poop and taking some M&M's, like -- I'm -- I'm giving you somebody that's stealing drugs, somebody that's stealing guns, somebody that is purposely lying about his story to you, but because you guys are best friends and buddy-buddy and go to each other's weddings and your kids play together and your wives are friends, like it's all cool, it's all good, like -instead -- you know what I mean, like let's just keep our good boy image instead of do the right thing. MR. RIORDAN: Okay. THE WITNESS: It's crazy -- the way -you can't treat people like that. You can't call people -- you can't use the N word, you can't -you can't call people jigaboos, you can't use me as your token to come stand by you so you can look cool on TV with a black officer next to you, like in the -- in the time of -- of -- of oppression and 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 134 suffer -- of -- of all the social media and news outlets covering all that kind of stuff, you know what I mean, like I'm -- I'm more than that, you know what I'm saying, like don't -- don't do that, don't treat me unfairly, don't treat me differently than you're treating all your white compadres. MR. RIORDAN: Okay. BY MR. RIORDAN: Q So when you speak about seeing white officers violating policies and the law and not being punished, are you specifically referring to Ulrich or others? A Others. Q Okay. A A plethora of officers. Q What -- okay. I -- I need some specifics, what -starting with -A I gave you one, Dale Gerbig driving drunk. Q Yep. A Okay. Chalk that up to well, he's going through a divorce and he's an alcoholic, so that's cool. MR. OLSON: How do you spell the last name? THE WITNESS: Gerbig, G-E-R-B-I-G. MR. RIORDAN: G-E-R-B-I-G. Page 135 THE WITNESS: He has -- he knows all about Dale. Sorry, now I'm getting passionate about it. MR. RIORDAN: No, that's fine. And I -you know, if you need to take a break, that's fine too. THE WITNESS: No, I'm good. MR. RIORDAN: Okay. BY MR. RIORDAN: Q So we have Gerbig. A Dale Gerbig. I believe there was three officers that ended up getting written up for the racial comments about Tony Clark. Q Do you remember the -- the officers that were written up? A I think it was Bowe, Erdmann, E-A-R-D-M-A-N(sic.). I'm not sure who the third was. Q Okay. A You know, they were also mad at me because I came forward about Abraham stealing money, stealing donated funds, that was another thing I went to Wendy and -- and the mayor about, and I had other officers, other supervisors, sergeants, verify what I told them. Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 38 of 54 Page 136 1 2 Q A 3 4 Q 5 6 7 8 A Q 11 A 12 Q 9 10 13 14 A 16 Q 15 17 A 19 Q 20 A 18 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 Q 4 A 3 5 6 7 Q A 8 9 10 11 Q 13 A 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q 20 21 22 A 24 Q 25 A 23 Okay. That's in that rinky-dink investigation that they didn't do. Let me -- let me go back for a minute. You raised the issue of white officers not being disciplined for policy violations and law violations; we talked about Gerbig with the DWI, correct? Uh-huh. Yes? Yes. We talked about three officers being punished for racial comments regarding fellow Officer Tony Clark, correct? Correct. And then there was Assistant Chief Abraham stealing funds and was not punished, correct? Correct. What -- what funds did Abraham steal? She -- there's a lady named Sherry Hougom, I believe H-O-U-G-A-A-M(sic.), I believe, so her daughter was murdered like when I first started. Dan was like the first responder there, gave her CPR, she came back to life for a little bit, ended up dying. Mom, Sherry, became, I don't know, Page 137 infatuated with Dan, like they became like family, you know. Okay. When Dan got into NRO, she starts donating money to our program. Okay. So every year she has like a Sara softball tournament that -- all those donations go to the police department. She raises money -- she raises a lot of money every year and donates it to the police department. Okay. I don't know if it was for tax purposes or for whatever accounting reasons, they told her she needs to stop donating money and just donate specific items that we need, because the money can't be allocated towards directly to our program if you give it to the police department. So just let me clarify a couple things, just so that I'm -When you say Dan, you're talking about the assistant chief? No. Dan is -- is Dan Ulrich. Oh, Dan Ulrich. Yep. 1 Q 2 A Q 5 A 6 Q 7 A 3 4 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q A 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q 2 A 1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q 16 17 18 19 20 21 A 22 23 Q 25 A 24 Page 138 Okay. And so the donations that Sherry Hougom was making was to the -NRO unit. Got it. Okay. Go ahead. Yes. I'm sorry. So we want to use some of this money to take kids out to get pizza, ice cream, whatever, right, we can't use that money for whatever reason, okay? So me and Dan, Dan and I share a -- a car together for this whole duration of this time. We didn't have a -- a laptop, a computer dedicated to us, so there'd be days that we didn't have one or you'd have to go get one from whatever squad didn't have anybody for that shift and then there was shift change, come -you know, we needed a computer. Right. So we were like okay, well, with this money, can we go buy a laptop? No. Okay. Well, Sherry, can you just buy us a computer? Because they're telling Sherry, you need to tell -- or you need to donate specific items. So she of course calls Dan, because her and Dan are -Right. -- Dan is like her adopted son now. Page 139 Right. And -- and he says well, we need a computer, and she says well, you guys already sent me pictures and receipts of a computer that they bought with this money. No, we don't have a computer. So then that started that -- this rumor mill of -everybody's questioning well, where the heck is this money and why are we sending this lady pictures and receipts of items that we supposedly bought with these donated funds, right? And so fast forward however many months, the City hires some guy to do some investigation as to where the money went and concluded that it was an accounting error and the money is back where it should be. Okay. So if I catch what you're telling me is that Ms. Hougom donated money to the NRO program that was allegedly spent on a computer, but an accountant came in -- came in, checked the funds and found out there was an accounting error and there was no computer bought with the money? Correct. She -- and she still does donate money, so I don't know if they have a bank or pool or account or -Okay. -- we were told that if she donates money to the Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 39 of 54 1 2 3 4 Q A 5 6 7 Q A 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q A 14 15 16 17 18 Q A 19 20 21 22 Q 23 24 25 Page 140 police department, it can't be directly for the NRO program -Right. -- for -- I have -- that's beyond the scope of whatever I do. Got it. So she was told instead of donating money, if you want Dan and Nate to have specific things, ask them what they need and donate -- you know, do you -it's called a Toughbook, donate a Toughbook instead $1200, you know what I mean? Yeah. So we said well, we need this, get us -- get us a computer, and our department had already sent her pictures of a computer and whatnot that they had purchased for us. Got it. When in reality he was spending it on his boat program and all this other stuff that he had going on, and in -- but in return was lying and sending fictitious receipts and all this kind of stuff. Okay. So what you're telling me is that the assistant chief was taking the money donated by Hougom and spending it on his boat program, is that -Page 141 1 3 Q 5 A 4 6 7 8 9 10 Q 12 A 13 Q 11 14 15 16 Q A 20 Q 21 A 18 19 22 23 25 1 2 Q Okay. 2 3 A I don't know what else, yes. 3 4 Q Okay. And then sending her pictures of computers 4 6 A 7 8 Q 9 Yes. But the person that was sending Sherry the receipts, his name was Lieutenant Hogan. Okay. Did Lieutenant Hogan work with the NRO program? 5 6 8 10 11 Q Where -- where did he work? 11 12 A It was like out -- community outreach or -- 12 13 Q Okay. 13 14 A Yeah, it -- I don't know -- I don't really know 14 what he did. Q A Q A 9 No. 16 Q A 7 10 A 15 Q 24 And -- and whatever else. that he allegedly bought for you guys? A 17 1 A 5 A 2 Q A 15 And how do you know that this money that Ms. Hougom 16 20 then as soon as we started having issues about it Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 and questioning it is when -- okay, well you guys 21 22 can use the computer in the winter, not in the 22 23 summer, stop asking questions about the money, stop 23 24 -- you know, A, B and C. 24 17 submitted went to the assistant chief's boat 18 programs? 19 A 25 Q Because they bought a computer for the boat, and Got it. 17 25 Q Page 142 Because Dan -- Dan got pissed off because they were lying to Sherry, because you know Dan and Sherry have this connection. Right. So the -- originally it was Dan that was pissed off about all this stuff because they're stabbing, you know, this lady in the back who's actually, out of the kindness of her heart, thinking that, you know, she's doing a good cause by giving us some money to help our program -Right. -- you know what I mean? Yeah. So the assistant chief said hey, listen, we're going to use this computer during the summer, you guys can get the computer during the winter? No. That -- that -- after we started asking questions, he was like -Oh. -- just use it now. Okay. Yeah. You don't ask -- you don't get to ask questions, you know what I mean? So when you -- when you said the assistant chief was stealing funds, he stole funds from your program for another program? Page 143 He was stealing funds from our program. I don't know where they were spent. Okay. You don't know if they were spent for other police department programs? I don't know. Okay. Do you know if -- if the money actually went into the assistant chief's pocket? I -- I -- I have zero ability to -- to follow, track, see any accountant stuff. Okay. You just know that it didn't go to the NRO fund? I just know it didn't go to the NRO, and I just know that we were fictitiously telling this lady what we were doing with her money and sending her receipts for her taxes that yes, this is what you -Right. -- you donated to us. Right. So you -Yes. Which got resolved by some guy saying it was just an accounting error. Okay. Any other specific instances where you felt that white officers had violated policies or laws and -- and didn't get punished, other than the ones we've just talked about? Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 40 of 54 1 A 2 3 4 Q A 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Q A Q A 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 25 Q A Q 1 A 23 24 2 3 4 Q A 5 6 7 Q 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 A Q A Q A Q 15 16 A 17 18 19 20 21 Q A Q A 22 23 Q 24 25 A Page 144 I -- I mean, I got to sit here and think of every time people did bad stuff. Yep, Captain Melby -Okay. -- and people even reported on him, every day he would start his meetings with what's up, gay boys, what's up, fags, people complained about that. I don't know who specifically complained about that. But you don't know if he got disciplined for that? I'm not sure. Okay. Because there was another lieutenant, Lieutenant Frandsen, F-R-A-N-D-S-E-N, Chuck Frandsen was a lieutenant, he called somebody, another officer, a fag, in -- in -- in a joking back-and-forth conversation, another third-party heard it and reported it. That lieutenant got demoted all the way down to patrolman for saying that, so that was a huge issue in our department, because people had complained about Melby calling people gay boys and fags for months and months. But, again, Melby and Abraham are intertwined with some -Okay. None of that probably matters to you, but -No, I -- if -- if this is -Page 145 It's not about what you do, it's about who likes you and who doesn't like you. Got it. And it's small-town politics where they can just hide what they want to hide, disclose what they want to disclose because nobody challenges them. This -- this individual that Lieutenant Frandsen called a fag -Yes. -- white, black, what? White. Okay. Cory Brandl. And I assume Melby, when he had his -- these meetings and started out with what's up, gay -That was with his supervisor meet -- his meetings with all the supervisors. All the supervisors were white, correct? Yeah. Okay. Every other officer is white. That -- that's all there is. All right. Any other -- any other specific instances that we haven't covered? Yeah. Let me -- I've got to think. Tyler Pond and 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 146 Heath Parshall getting into a small bar fight at Del's Bar. Q Heath Parshall, we've mentioned him before, right? A Yes. Q Okay. A bar fight? A Yep, at Del's Bar. Q Were they disciplined, do you know, for this fight? A No. They -- they were counseled. Q Were they on duty when this fight occurred or off duty? A Off duty. Q And how do you know they were counseled? A Because we're all friends, we'd just sit there and talk about it. Q Okay. A But they were told be careful going downtown, don't be getting into shit like that, it's going to -it's going to hurt you. Q Was it something they started or somebody else started? A Some -- I think some drunk guy grabbed Pond's jacket, and I think Pond started choking him, and they just had a counseling session. I'm -- I don't know, I'm trying to think of everything bad somebody did. Page 147 Q I'm just looking for these instances where you said that these white officers violated a policy or a law and weren't punished. A Sure. Q And you've given me a number of examples. And if you think of any more, just pop in and -- we'll do what we've been doing. A Sure. Q You talked about PBT's, and I may have written that down wrong, what -- what are those? A Like the straw you got to blow in to like check your alcohol level. Q Okay. MR. OLSON: Preliminary breath test. MR. RIORDAN: That's what I thought. BY MR. RIORDAN: Q You made some mention about people getting away with something involving those? A An officer -- an officer would have -- has to blow every time he would come to work for a while, from -- from -- like because he knows -- he's an alcoholic. Other officers would sit there and smoke in the car, knowing that it's -- you know -now we're just talking like -- like -- you know, the policy's so dang big that it's like -- Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 41 of 54 Page 148 1 2 Q A 3 4 Q 5 6 7 8 9 A Q 10 A 12 Q 11 13 A Q 16 A 14 15 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q A Q A Q A Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 1 5 Q A 8 Q 6 7 9 A 11 Q 10 12 13 A 14 15 Q 16 17 18 A 19 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 20 24 25 Sure. You don't -- you don't button a button, that's a policy violation, so -Right. These officers that were being tested before going to work, were -- did they -- had violated the policy beforehand and that's why they're being tested? I assume. I mean, not every officer that walked in that day was tested? No. It was certain officers that were being tested, and you assume for prior violations, correct? Correct. How many officers do you believe were being tested? I don't know. I just know of two that have ever had to do it. And who were those two officers? Officer Delaney. Delaney. And Officer LeQue. And LeQue? L-E-Q-U-E. Okay. We've mentioned him before. Yeah. Page 149 Okay. So these two were -But Officer LeQue's was a while back, I believe. Okay. And he -- and -- and I think he got a day off for it. For? For coming to work with alcohol in his system. So they -- they dismissed him when he had alcohol on his breath? I think so. Okay. How about Delaney; was there any problems with Delaney? I -- I think that he had came in so many times with alcohol, that that's why he had to blow every day. Okay. Did -- I mean, obviously if there was traces of alcohol on his breath, he wasn't allowed to work? I -- that would be my hopeful assumption, but I -I'm not part of that. Okay. I don't know if he ever was positive or not. Okay. I just know that obviously he had been at some point, a numerous amount of times, where they felt the need to test him every day. 1 Q 2 3 4 A 5 6 7 8 Q A 9 10 11 12 Q A 13 14 15 16 17 Q A 18 19 20 Q 21 22 23 A 24 25 1 2 Q A 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Q A 12 13 14 15 Q A 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q A Q A 23 24 25 Q Page 150 Okay. And -- and how does this fall into the category of -- of white officers violating policies but not getting punished? Because white officers, even if they did violate policy, got a -- a structured, stepped discipline, right -Okay. -- not an immediate we're looking for termination and for the state crime lab to come investigate you -Okay. -- you know what I mean. I -- I never received any punishment, suspension, day off, written letter; it was immediate up -- up here, you're fired, God forbid. Got it. So you're saying that -Where other white officers were -- either it was dismissed or they got a progressive discipline like it states in our rules and regulations. Okay. So -- and you -- you're using Delaney and -and LeQue as the -- the stepped progression and discipline, as examples? I wouldn't say that's an example. That's -- you -normally it depends on the level of what you did, right? Page 151 Right. If you were speeding, you might get counseled; if you crashed your car, you may get -- you have to have remedial training and watch a video of how to break tunnel vision or you might get written up, your next time you might get a day off, you know what I mean? Like you -- you steal drugs and -you shouldn't just get desk duty, you know what I mean? Like that's what I'm saying is a -Yep. -- like normally your punishment would fit your crime, and if it's something in the middle, like you would slowly work your way up. Now, you indicated you got -The only other time I ever seen an officer go from regular to fired was Lieutenant -- oh, what was his name? He got caught stealing meth at -- at work and using it at work and they fired him. And -With the help of the -- the DCI. And you don't remember this guy's name? Yeah. Bigger dude -- he was a third-shift lieutenant when I was there, Brian -- Brian -Brian -- and it's -- it's been years. That's okay. If -- if it pops into your head -- Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 42 of 54 Page 152 A Q 3 A 4 Q 1 2 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 A Q A Q A Q A 15 16 Q 17 A Q 20 A 18 19 21 22 23 Q 25 A 24 1 Q 2 3 4 A Q 5 6 A 7 8 9 Q A 10 11 12 Q A 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q A 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q Yeah. -- yell it out. White guy or black guy? White guy. Now, through your -- through your time with the La Crosse Police Department, you got -- I think you indicated you got a -- a number of warnings; is that correct? I didn't say that. Oh, what were the notices that you were getting? At the end? Yeah. Explaining the policies that I violated. Okay. So normally you would get that and then days or weeks later, you would get your punishment. Okay. So you've never got any -- any warnings from the La Crosse Police Department? For this? Just for anything. I got a remedial -- I had to do a PowerPoint on an accident, I got written up for being late once -- I got written up for being late twice. I would have to check my personnel file. Okay. Nothing egregious or nothing more than being late. Page 153 Okay. These -- these policy violations that you were getting notice of -Uh-huh. -- explain those to me; how are they different than warnings? Because it -- they didn't get to the disciplinary part of it yet. Well -Normally you would say here's what you violated, right? Right. And a day, two, three days later, you'd have a sit-down with your supervisor, like okay, I gave you this, here's what the remedy is, I have to give you a write-up, you're going to get a day off, I have to just write that we had verbal counseling, and then you have to sign off. Okay. It's not like sit down, this is what you did three days ago, I'm going to -- boom. Normally you just -- you see what you did and then you wait -Okay. -- you know. So you were getting these notices of policy violations, but then no discipline that would 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 154 follow it? A Well, I only did it three days. Q I'm sorry, you're going to have to explain that one to me. A I got them the last -- I got them on the 9th, 10th and 11th. Q Of September? A Yes. Q Okay. So those are the only -A Miniscule things that just -- it was like harassment, like -Q Okay. So you got three different policy violations in the last three days? A In three days. Q Okay. What were the policy violations? A I -- the one -- the only one I can remember right now was Lenell Carter, I videotaped the thing. And I'd have to relook, man, it's been a while. I don't -- I -- I -Q That's okay. A I -- I -- I knew all this and I purposely -- I'm trying to let it go. Q But the only time you got policy violations were in the last three days of your term with the La Crosse Police Department? Page 155 A No. I said I got written up previous for like being late or missing -Q Right. But I'm talking about these -- these policy violations, not the actual warnings. A I don't know if I was going to get a warning or a write -- I don't know the conclusion of what was to come. Q I got it. A It was basically a notice saying I know you did this, I'm -- you know what I mean, like -Q Okay. A -- so you're -- you're on notice that we know that you did something wrong. Q Okay. So you -A Your punishment may or may not be a day or a week coming down. Q So they just didn't sit down and talk to you about the punishment after you got these violations? A Correct. Q Okay. That may have been coming, you're just not sure? A Correct. Q Okay. I understand now. A Correct. Q Okay. Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 43 of 54 1 A 2 3 Q 5 A 4 6 Q A 9 Q 7 8 10 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 11 15 A Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 16 17 21 22 23 Q 24 25 A 1 Q 2 3 A 4 5 6 7 8 Q 9 10 11 A 12 13 14 15 Q 16 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 17 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Page 156 It was basically saying I watched all your videos and I saw you did something wrong, oh, I saw you did this wrong, I saw you do this wrong. Okay. Nothing like I crashed my car or somebody made a complaint, you know what I mean? They were, in your words, minor violations? Yes. They could have come with a discussion about a penalty later, but that just never occurred? Correct. Because then you left? Correct. Okay. What made you think that you were going to be terminated from the La Crosse Police Department? The chief requesting it. And when did the chief request your termination? Through the union people. Okay. I was told that he was -- he was going for -- he was requesting the -- the police and fire commission to terminate me. Okay. He was requesting to have a hearing in front of the police and fire commission? Correct. Page 157 Okay. And the chief had notified the union that this was going to occur? Well, when all this started happening, I contacted the union to try to get some help, so then I had like a union steward and like a union lawyer for -starting the day that I met with Eileen Brownlee or whatever, Brown -- Brownlee. Okay. Once she met with you regarding the interview that was recorded, you got ahold of the union? Correct. So then moving forward, any communication happened between the -- the police department and my union lawyer, and then me and my union lawyer went back and forth. Okay. So you learned that the chief was going to request a -- a fire and police commission hearing? Correct. How close in time was that to your resignation? I think -I -- I can -- you -- you -- I can give you the -the -Sure. -- if that helps? THE WITNESS: And I've got to use the restroom. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 158 MR. RIORDAN: We'll -- let's take a break. I'll have this marked. (Recess taken from 1:29 p.m. until 1:34 p.m.) (Exhibit 7 marked for identification.) BY MR. RIORDAN: Q Mr. Poke, I'm going to hand you what's been marked as Poke Exhibit 7. It's the separation agreement, waiver and release between the City of La Crosse, you and the Wisconsin Professional Police Association. Can you review that, please. Is Exhibit 7 the agreement you signed to resolve all of your claims against the City of La Crosse other than the one that you brought here today, or brought here in this particular instance? A When I decided to resign. Q This is the document you signed to resign? A Yes. Q Okay. And you've got your signature on page 4 of 6; is that correct? A Yes. Q And we were looking for a -- a date earlier; it looks like it was 8/10/16 that you signed? A Yes. Q Okay. And you reviewed this document prior to Page 159 signing it? A Yes. Q Okay. We were talking about the chief commencing a fire and commission action against you, and you learning of that action through your union rep, correct? A Yes. Q And we were trying to figure out when you first learned about the chief bringing in a fire and commission -- fire and police commission action, obviously it was before you signed Exhibit 7, correct? A Correct. Q Do you remember when that occurred, when you first heard about the fire and police commission potential hearing? A About termination or the police and fire commission? Q The police and fire commission. A I was informed through my lawyer that they would be seeking termination, and then in order for them to do that, we would have to go through a police and fire commission hearing in order to get it granted. Q Okay. Was it close in time to the signing of Exhibit 7 that you first heard about the Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 44 of 54 Page 160 1 A 3 Q 2 4 5 6 A 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q A 17 Q A 20 Q 18 19 21 A 23 Q 22 24 25 1 2 A Q 3 4 5 A Q 6 7 A 8 9 10 11 Q 12 13 14 A Q 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 A Q A 23 24 25 Q A termination? August -- a year later, no. Okay. And when was the first time that you heard about the chief raising the police and fire commission issue as well as potential termination? I was informed by my lawyer that the chief's lawyer stated that they would be seeking to fire me, and then they wanted to talk about -- like mediate -like resolving it without having to do all that, and that it's in my best interest to not go through that proceeding. So the majority of the conversation was between the chief's lawyer, I don't remember his name, and my -- and Andy Schauer, the union lawyer. Okay. And then I -- we had had these conversations long before -I -- I don't want to hear -Yeah, yeah. -- anything about your conversations with your counsel here, so -But he was a part of all the -Yes. Yeah. Let me see if I can do it this way, when was the first time that you suspected you may be terminated from the La Crosse Police Department? Page 161 The -- September 17 of '15. Okay. And that's when you got the disciplinary administrative leave notice? Correct. Okay. Before that, you had not felt that you were going to be terminated? Before that, I didn't feel like the process had started. I pretty much thought after I came forward, that that was how it was going to be resolved. I'm not sure I understand completely, but let me see if I can ask some questions -Sure. -- to clarify it for me. And then -- you testified that the first time you -- you thought you were going to be terminated is when you received the disciplinary administrative leave notice on September 17, 2015; is that correct? Correct. Okay. That's the first time I felt yes, now it's for sure happening. Like they're going to push me out? Yeah. 1 Q 2 3 4 5 6 A 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 A Q A Q A Q A 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 Q A 5 6 Q 7 8 9 A 11 Q 10 12 13 14 A Q 15 16 A 17 18 19 20 Q A 21 22 23 24 25 Q Page 162 Okay. You testified also that when you first came forward, there was -- it -- it raised the possibility that you may be terminated? I -- I don't -- that's where I'm confused. What -- tell me about that. Oh, when I met with Kudron and Melby and went over everything -- the minute I found out that Captain Kudron didn't know any details of the conversation that myself and Dittman had August 14, and I found out that I was being reassigned and that Dan -- nothing was -- Dan was still working, at -- that was the point I said I'm getting screwed over and they're going to come after me, yes. Okay. So that would have been -- let me see here -August 31. -- August 31, 2015? Correct. That's when you felt okay -Yes. -- this is -When I found out -- when they came and told me that and I asked -- started asking them well, what about Dan, and they didn't know anything about Dan, and Captain Kudron is Dittman's direct supervisor, and Page 163 I found out Dittman didn't go to Kudron about that, that's -- at that moment right there. Okay. That Dittman was trying to take care of that all by himself. Okay. So when you met with Melby and Kudron on August 31, 2015, is the first time you found out that Captain Kudron did not know anything about the allegations against Ulrich? Or the evidence that was collected or any of that. Okay. Does Captain Kudron normally do those investigations? What kind? Like into some misconduct, such as the misconduct that Ulrich was -I would assume he would probably be privy to that, because he was -- he's the captain of investigations. Okay. Also how our department is is everybody runs up the chain of command, because -- that's just how it is. And I know Dittman very well, if Dittman thought one bad thing was happening, he would -- would go up the chain of command, you know what I mean? Okay. Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 45 of 54 1 A 2 3 Q 4 5 6 A 7 8 9 10 11 Q A 12 13 14 15 Q 16 17 A Q 20 A 18 19 21 22 Q 23 A 25 Q 24 1 2 3 4 5 6 A Q A Q 7 8 9 A 10 11 12 Q A 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q 24 25 A Page 164 And when I found out that that never happened, that was the moment I realized, good luck. Okay. In your August 31, 2015 meeting with Melby and Kudron, what made you think that Captain Kudron did not know about the Ulrich misconduct? Because I -- I asked him, I said do you -- did Dittman not tell you any of this? So that's when I had to sit down and go over all of it verbally and then had to put it in writing the next day. Okay. Because I -- because I had -- because Dittman never wanted pictures of the -- of those text messages, so I kept them, and that's when they finally took pictures of -- of the text messages and all that. Did you get the impression that Kudron may have generally known about these complaints, but not the specifics of each complaint? I'm not sure what he did and didn't know. Okay. His response to me was tell me what happened, I don't know about it. Okay. And that was his response to you on August 31, 2015? Correct. And -- and that's what made you think that he Page 165 knew -- he knew nothing about the misconduct that was reported regarding Ulrich? Correct. Okay. So then I reported to two captains. Okay. So it was in -- at the end of August 2015 is when you started suspecting that things were piling up against you? Yeah. Because previous to that, everything was good. Right. I got this new job, I got a job offer up here, Abraham pulled me in and told me, you know, you should start thinking about staying, we should think about getting you -- grooming you to get you promoted, talking about I know like your passion is drugs and you want to be a drug investigator, but why don't you start thinking about getting promoted and getting to that path, like everything -- you know, I -- I turned down a job to stay there and -that was in May of '15, two and a half months later, it was horrible. Okay. So in -- in May of 2015, what was the job offer that you had? Richfield Police Department. 1 2 Q A 3 4 Q 5 A 7 Q 8 A 6 9 10 11 Q 12 13 14 15 A Q 16 17 A Q 20 A 18 19 21 22 23 24 25 Q A 1 2 3 4 Q 5 6 A 7 Q 9 A 10 Q 8 11 12 13 A Q 14 15 16 17 A Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 18 19 23 Q 25 A 24 Page 166 Okay. That was the first time you applied to them? Correct -- in my life, I've applied there four times. Okay. But they had offered you a job in May of 2015? Correct. Okay. And then you went and talked to -And then the chief knew about it, because, you know, they had to come down and ask questions and -So then you talked to the assistant chief and the chief, and they were telling you hey, stick around, you're doing a good job -Just -- just Abraham, not the chief. Okay. So Abraham came down and told you hey, stick around, we got big plans for you, we know you're interested -Uh-huh. -- in drugs -Yeah. And me and Abraham had a relationship where I would -- if I was pissed off or I was upset about something, I would go to him, like -- you know what I mean? And he would -We had a -- we had a fine relationship. He Page 167 wouldn't give me any more insight than he would give the next person, you know what I mean, but -I just felt comfortable talking to him. And -- and this relationship with Abraham continued up to August 31, 2015? Until he exploded on me and started yelling at me for dropping the bomb on the department and -Okay. -- stabbing people in the back. So it -- it sounds like everything was going well for you up to -Me reporting stuff, August 14, to Dittman. But, I mean, you didn't -- you didn't know anything about things going poorly for you at that time, because it sounds like you had a conversation with Abraham that told you you were doing well and you have -That was in May. Oh. August 14 I came -- I told Dittman that stuff. Got it. Nothing transpired for 17 days. The 14th is when I told Dittman; the 31st is when I get removed. Okay. There was no -- nothing in between, it was still me Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 46 of 54 Page 168 1 Q 3 A 2 4 5 6 Q 7 8 9 10 A 12 Q 11 13 14 15 16 A 17 Q A 20 Q 21 A 18 19 22 23 Q 25 A 24 1 Q 2 3 4 5 A Q 6 7 8 A 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q 17 A 16 18 19 20 21 Q A 22 23 Q 25 A 24 having to work with Dan -All right. -- with him probably knowing that I was the one that got -- you know, exposed him for all that stuff. But from August 14, 2015 to August 31, 2015, you had no thoughts about being terminated, it was on August 31, 2015 when that started to creep into your head, when you had this meeting with Melby and Kudron? Correct. Okay. So we can put a definitive timeline as to when you felt this is going bad for me, and that was August 31, 2015, when you realized it, when you felt things were going bad? No. Terminating or not going good for me I would say is two different things. Okay. Let -- let's start with termination. Uh-huh. It sounds like that -I didn't feel like I was going to get terminated until the 17th, when they actually took my gun and my badge. Okay. That's basically the time it's over. Page 169 And you're saying that that's different from the time that you felt things started to go south for you? Correct. When did you believe -- when did you feel things started to go south for you at the La Crosse Police Department? Several months into NRO, like I said, like when -when -- when Dan started doing these little things, when you -- when -- when -- like I think you've got to understand like me and Dan's dynamic. Me coming to Kudron months ago telling him like I'm not really -- you know, me and Dan aren't working together, his -- his response is like do you want to go back to shift, like -Right. You know, like clearly explaining that Dan is superior to me, why -- don't -- if I have issues, then I can remove myself -Okay. -- you know what I mean? Casey Kamps came to Dittman with -- with his concerns, and they got rid of him right away, like right away. What were Casey Kamps' concerns? Stuff -- stuff about Dan, stuff about Dittman. He 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q A Q A Q A Q 11 A Q 14 A 15 Q 12 13 16 17 18 A 19 20 21 22 23 Q A 24 25 Q 1 2 A 3 Q A 6 Q 4 5 7 8 A 9 Q 11 A 10 12 13 Q 14 15 16 17 A Q 18 19 A 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Page 170 went to Dittman and -- and just was like can I have an off-the-record, man-to-man conversation with you, and two days later, he was done. Did they remove him or did he -They removed Kamps from NRO. Okay. And that -- Gerbig came in after that. Where did Kamps go after they removed him? Patrol. Did he complain about being removed from NRO to patrol? God yes. Okay. And what was the -He felt like they stabbed him in the back. -- what -- what were the conversations and the issues that Kamps raised with Dittman during this off-the-record conversation, if you know? I -- I don't know specifics, I wasn't there. I just know that he wasn't happy -- he wasn't happy with how Dan like was treating everybody, like -you'd have to ask him -Okay. -- it's like -- to -- to go deeper. It's been a while. So you don't have a real understanding as to why Page 171 Kamps was removed from NRO? Kamps was removed because Dittman inherently didn't think he was mentally okay. Okay. Did Dittman tell you this? Yeah. We all had a meeting about it. Okay. And by mentally okay, what was -- what was related to you about -- with that particular issue? I'm trying to remember. I -- I don't know -- I -I can't remember exactly what was going on. Okay. So -But the -- Kamps was mentally okay to be a cop, just not an NRO. Okay. So Dittman had a meeting with all the NRO officers and said here's what's happening with Kamps? Yeah. Okay. And that's when you learned that they felt that he wasn't okay to be an NRO officer? You -- right. But I already knew he got removed from that position, because he came in one day, had a meeting, was crying, left, bitching about it, and then we had a meeting I don't know how many days later to -- to talk about it. Okay. Do you know what they meant by he was not mentally able to be an NRO officer? Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 47 of 54 Page 172 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I don't know. (Reporter clarification.) THE WITNESS: I have no idea. BY MR. RIORDAN: Q And -- and I just want to backtrack a little bit, I know we talked about when you first believed you were going to be terminated, and now we're talking about when you first felt things were going south for you at the police department, and it sounds like -- just your whole -A It was -- it was like this for a couple months. Q Okay. A I got pulled aside by Sergeant Hauser at some point, a month, two months before all this, to make sure I was okay, like -- people just could see that I was not enjoying work. Q Okay. So like -- like a couple months before you were removed from NRO, Hauser came up to you and said hey, listen, what's going on here? A Uh-huh. He made me meet him at the Boys & Girls Club on the north side, get out of his car, get in -- get out of my car, get in with him. Q Okay. What -- what did you tell Sergeant Hauser? A Probably not too much, because I didn't really get along with him. Page 173 Q Kind of just -A I probably just listened, like -- watch your -- you know, he told me to watch your attitude, people can notice, like -- you know -Q Okay. A -- don't let it affect your work, whatever's going on. Q So it wasn't here's what's happening with Dan, here's all the misconduct, he was kind of telling you, this is what you've got to do to be better at the job or something? A Yeah. This had nothing to do with Dan. Q Got it. A This was just about his observations of me as a person. Q Got it. A Yeah. Q Okay. A So that's what I'm explaining, is like my downward slide of me in the La Crosse Police Department was not all of a sudden this, it was just -Q Right. So it -- it started -A -- a compilation of everything, how they were treating Tony Clark and like -- I just -- you know what I mean, like -- 1 Q 2 3 4 A Q 7 A 8 Q 5 6 9 10 A 11 12 13 14 15 Q 16 17 18 19 20 A 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 Q A 5 6 7 8 9 Q 11 A 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q 18 19 20 A Q 23 A 21 22 24 25 Page 174 Yeah. So I -- I'm just -- I just want to get a -a time frame on -- on the beginning of the slide; you've indicated it was a few months before you were reassigned from NRO? Correct. Okay. So two, three months before August 31, 2015? Yeah. Okay. And a lot of this slide started with just dealing with Dan Ulrich? It -- that was a -- a lot of it, because I was with Dan every single day, but, I mean, it's still just the dynamic of the police department, of how they treated people and how certain people can just do whatever they want to do in that department and -And -- and what I'm gathering from you with regard to the -- the favorite -- favoritism that you perceived in the police department was the -- the higher-ups had -- had -- had favorites that they treated differently than the others? Yeah. I just felt like they ran the police department like it was 1950, and you could just treat people like shit and have zero consequences and talk in a way that you shouldn't be able to talk in 2015, but they do it because they surround themselves by, in essence, family of the same breed Page 175 and don't bring in outsiders, and they've never learned that it's not okay to be like that. So -They're a nonprogressive, close-minded group of people, and I mean -- I -- I don't mean that rudely, I mean that literally -- literally, that -you look at the people that are there, have never left there, have been born and raised there and know no other way. All right. So when people come from different backgrounds or different ideas or, God forbid, speak up against you treating people like crap, there's only one thing, get rid of them, because you're not going to -- you know, they're not going to let you mess up their groove of what they got going on. All right. So it -- what you're telling me is it doesn't matter whether you're black, white, Hmong or anything, if you're not a part of the inner circle, you're treated like crap? But not fired. But my statement is true? No. I -- well, I wouldn't say if you're not part of the group, because almost everybody is. I would just say if you're not with them, you're against Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 48 of 54 Page 176 1 2 Q 3 4 5 6 A 7 8 9 10 Q A 11 12 13 Q A 14 15 16 Q A 17 18 19 20 Q 21 22 23 24 A Q 25 1 2 3 A Q 4 5 A 6 7 Q 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 A Q A Q 15 16 17 A 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q them is how they look at it. But that -- being against them doesn't solely mean that you're against them because you're black, there's other individuals that are against them that were other races? I'm not saying anybody's against them. I'm saying that they're perceiving that if you're not on board with what they -Right. -- are doing, they look at it as you are against them. Right. And -I'm not saying anybody's against them, I'm just saying -Right. -- that's how they interpret -- like if you're going to question them or speak up or voice your opinion or stand up for somebody, that's how they perceive you. All right. And that could -- they could perceive somebody is against them who's white, Hmong or female, correct? They could, yeah. And that -- they also disciplined other officers who were white who weren't part of the group you Page 177 think unfairly as well, correct? To what extent -- I don't know what -- how or who. Okay. But, I mean, you saw unfairness with other officers who were not black, correct? I've seen them treat other officers like crap, yeah. Okay. Your complaint, I guess, with the La Crosse Police Department is they took it one step further with you, because you're black, they terminated you? Correct. Okay. Compared to what they do with their white officers. Right. They -- they may treat other white officers like crap, they just don't take the final step and terminate them? Well, I don't know how crappy other officers feel like they're treated. I don't know. I mean, it could just be my perception of me feeling like they're being treated like crap. All right. But, I mean, you -Maybe they think it's normal. I don't know. -- but you've seen the higher-ups at the La Crosse Police Department treat other officers, including white officers, like crap? 1 2 A Q 3 4 5 6 7 A Q 8 A Q 11 A 9 10 12 13 14 15 Q 16 17 18 A Q 19 20 21 22 A Q 23 24 25 A 1 Q 2 3 A 4 5 Q 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 A Q A Q A Q 13 14 15 16 17 A Q 18 19 A Q 22 A 23 Q 20 21 24 25 Page 178 Have I? Yes. Okay. What -- what was it about the nondisciplinary administrative leave notice that you received that indicated to you that this is not going well, I'm terminated? You mean the disciplinary -Yeah, the September 17 notice, which I think is Exhibit -Exhibit 4. -- Exhibit 4. When they call and tell you you got to come and turn in your gun and your badge and -- the only time I've ever seen that is when they fired the guy. Okay. And that's the first time that you felt this is it, I'm done? Yeah, as soon as they took my stuff. Okay. As a police officer, you're supposed to be familiar with the -- the general orders, the code of conduct and so forth; is that correct? Familiar. Okay. And I assume you were familiar with the fact that if you saw misconduct by another officer, you were supposed to report it to superiors? I'm sure that's in that. Page 179 Okay. But -- and you were familiar with that, generally, correct? Yeah, if you see people committing a crime and whatnot. Right. That you were supposed to report it to superiors and stuff like that -Uh-huh. -- if you saw misconduct? Yeah. You were familiar with that? Yes. Okay. You indicated that that just wasn't commonplace in the police department; when you saw another officer, you know, committing misconduct, that that just wasn't usually reported? Correct. Okay. So you're saying it was unusual in your circumstances because you had reported misconduct, that they were coming at you? It was -- say it again. That was a bad question. Yeah. Sorry. I -- I think what you're indicating to me is you -- you kind of broke the code by reporting another officer? Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 49 of 54 Page 180 1 2 A Q 3 4 A 5 6 Q 7 8 9 A Q 10 11 A 12 13 14 15 16 Q A Q A 17 18 19 Q A 20 21 Q 22 23 24 25 A Sure, yes. And that's what you felt was the basis for their coming at you later on? I think the reason they came at me was -- that's why it started, yeah. Okay. Had -- had you seen other officers report misconduct prior to your incident? No. Have you ever heard of other officers reporting misconduct to superiors prior to your -Sergeant Gyllander reported Chuck calling Cory Brandl a fag. And then he got demoted, right? Correct. Any other instances that you can recall? No, not anybody that's made like a formal complaint. Okay. People bitch to each other all the time, you know what I mean. But you've just given us an instance where there was a formal complaint made by an officer against another officer, and then there was some severe consequences for the officer that reported it? I don't know if Grant made a formal complaint or 1 2 3 4 5 Q A Q A Q 6 7 8 A Q 9 10 11 12 13 14 A Q 15 16 17 18 19 A Q A Q 20 21 22 23 A Q 24 25 Page 181 1 2 3 Q A 4 5 6 Q 7 8 9 10 11 A Q 12 13 A 14 15 16 17 Q A Q 18 19 20 21 22 A Q 23 24 25 A not. Okay. I don't -- I don't know how that transpired. I wasn't -- I was not there, I just heard of it like everybody else. But once this formal complaint was -- or once this complaint was known to the police department, it appears that the individual who reported the incidents got severely punished? The person that -- say it again. The person who made the report was severely punished? No. Sergeant Gyllander was not punished; the person that called the person a fag got punished. Okay. Okay. Grant -- nothing happened to Grant. Okay. Why is it you believe that you weren't to report misconduct by other officers, or that was discouraged or frowned upon by the police department? Why what? Why do you believe that it was discouraged by the police department to report misconduct of other officers? I think it's just a culture that they created. A 2 Q 3 A 1 4 5 Q 6 7 A 8 9 Q 11 A 10 12 13 14 15 16 Q 18 A 17 19 20 Q 21 22 A Q 25 A 23 24 Page 182 Okay. Just something you perceived? Uh-huh. Yes? Yes. Okay. No one ever said don't report misconduct of officers? No. Okay. There -- there was one instance I want to talk to you about which I think you were talked to about, and that was a visit to a school, I think it was a -- I can't remember the name of the school, Hamilton, I believe? Yeah, Hamilton or Lincoln or -We'll go with Hamilton for the moment. It -- it's my understanding -Lincoln. Was it Lincoln? Okay. A grade school? Yes. And there was a shooting at Lincoln at some point in time that you were going to talk to these individuals about? No. Okay. What -- from what I reviewed, it looked like you were -- you and Officer Ulrich were supposed to go to Lincoln to talk to the children, correct? Page 183 No. Okay. Tell me about the incident then. Sergeant Dittman said if you guys don't have nothing to do, you can stop by the school. Okay. And what were you supposed to do when you stopped by the school? We weren't supposed to do anything. That's -that's the entire purpose of our position, was that you create your own contact with whomever -Okay. -- however you see fit. So I think the last two or three times we went to that school, we went to recess and, you know, played tag and -- and -- you know that pole and the big box and you throw the ball in it and whatever -- wherever it comes out is how many points you get. I have no idea what that's called, so -Yeah. Just to -- to hang out and to like build a contact with kids that normally don't -Okay. So part of your duties as a neighborhood response officer is to go to schools and -- and talk to kids and -No. Our -- we had no duties. Okay. Like -- that's like the hardest thing for me to Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 50 of 54 Page 184 1 Q 3 A 2 4 5 6 Q A 7 8 9 10 Q A 11 12 Q 14 A 13 15 16 17 Q A 18 19 Q 21 A 20 22 23 24 25 Q 1 2 3 A Q 6 A 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q A 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q 25 A 24 explain to people, like -Yeah, I'm a little lost on that. We didn't have -- we didn't have like an MOU, like we didn't have anybody telling us what to do. Okay. We had certain community meetings that -- if they got scheduled, we would be notified about and then have to go to those. Okay. Between 7:00 -- or 11:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m., there's maybe three or four times that we had set things to do. Okay. It was go out, arrest people, get dope off the street and make some positive contacts. Okay. Like there was never -- we were never told -that's why that is so funny, Dittman has never written or told me to do anything. Okay. You -Dittman said if you guys have nothing to do, stop by the school, which -- he just said that because -- yeah, he already knows we stop by the school almost every day. Did you as a neighborhood response officer have any Page 185 duties to attend certain community functions; you indicated there was some meetings that would be noticed up that you'd have to appear at? Uh-huh. What were those? So we were specifically titled to the Washburn neighborhood, so the Washburn community had a Washburn Community Group that met like once every three weeks or a month, that. Then if people would call in and say hey, can these NRO's come to this event or this event, we would go. Okay. We were paid for by Viterbo College and by Mayo Hospital, that's how all the funding came together. So if -- if Viterbo had a basketball game, we would maybe go, or they had -- the night -- or the days when like all the freshman come in, like the week before, we would come in and do a presentation with them, or they had job fairs, we would go to that. If -- if Mayo wanted us to come talk to a group about -- you know -- you know how it is, these big corporations pay all -- donate all this money and they want to show people, look, this is the cost -Right. -- so then we would show up, like this is what 1 2 Q 3 A 5 Q 4 6 7 8 9 A 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q A 18 Q A 21 Q 19 20 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 A Q A Q A Q A Q 7 8 A 9 10 Q A 13 Q 14 A 11 12 15 16 Q 18 A 19 Q 17 20 21 22 A Q 23 A 25 Q 24 Page 186 we're doing, you know what I mean? So on those occasions, you had a duty to go to these meetings? Yes. Okay. And those were functions where the group would call up the La Crosse Police Department and say hey, listen, we want some neighborhood response officers here to do orientation for the kids? Yeah. Well, at times, or we were -- we were always there, so like we were the contact for these people, these people would call Dan or I, so we had our own schedule, so then if people called and said next Tuesday, could you come from 11:00 to 2:00 for this? Yep, we'll try. We'll throw it on the calendar. Got it. You know what I mean? Like we were our -basically our own boss -Okay. -- oversight. So when you would report in the morning, Dittman wouldn't tell you okay, you guys are going to Hamilton School -God no. -- this morning? Page 187 No. Okay. That would never happen? No. Okay. No. Or you have a community meeting tonight you have to go to? He may say that. He may say did you guys see the meeting? And we'd be like yeah, it's been on our calendar for -Okay. -- two weeks, you know what I mean? All right. Dittman would never -- Dittman would never have specific detailed things for us to do. It'd be what are you guys doing today -Okay. -- don't get me in trouble. So if he'd say listen, if you got time, stop by the school, Hamilton or Lincoln -Uh-huh. -- that wouldn't be, in your mind, an order to do that? Say it again. Sure. If -- if Dittman said to you in the morning Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 51 of 54 1 2 3 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 4 8 9 10 11 A Q 12 13 14 A 16 Q 15 17 A 19 Q 20 A 18 21 22 23 24 25 Q 2 A 1 3 4 Q 6 A 5 7 Q 9 A 8 10 11 12 Q A 13 14 15 16 Q 18 A 17 19 20 21 22 Q A 25 Q 23 24 Page 188 hey, listen, if you guys have time, stop by Lincoln or Hamilton, in your mind, that wouldn't be Dittman ordering you to do that that day? No. If you went to the school -Uh-huh. -- then would you have an obligation to go and -and, you know, talk to the kids or -- or do some kind of function with them? No. Okay. And my understanding with regard to the issue that we've discussed regarding the Lincoln School is you -- Ulrich went into the school, you did not? Correct. And you indicated you didn't go in because you were not in a good mood that day? Correct. Do you remember why you weren't in a good mood? It was something I had learned in like -- I don't remember if it was a -- if there was a shooting over the weekend or some -- there was something that had happened that I had learned about, and I was just like not -- I was pissed off at -- for -I don't remember what it was. Page 189 Okay. But you thought listen, I'm not going to -And I said let's go later; that's what I said to Dan. I'm just going to go now and hand out my stickers. Okay. We always had, you know, 30 stickers in our pockets. Okay. There'd be times where he would sit in the car and I would run into the Boys & Girls Club. Okay. There'd be times where he would sit in the car and I would go into the Y or vice versa. It -- not -that is not uncommon, and it's not -- it's just so far manipulating that it's just -- it's -- it's hurtful. Got it. I don't know how better to describe that. I was never ordered to go anywhere. If I was ever ordered to go anywhere, I would do it. I -- I follow commands very well; you have to know how to do that. Right. And -Yeah. -- you know that'd be a violation of -- 1 A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q A 9 10 Q 11 12 13 A Q 14 15 A 16 17 18 Q A 19 Q 21 A 20 22 23 24 Q A 25 1 2 Q A 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q A 11 12 Q 13 14 15 A 16 17 18 19 20 Q A Q 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Page 190 Yeah. Why would I -- why would I disobey -- go -you know what I mean, like -- that's what I'm saying, like it's not like all of a sudden go to the school today, guys, like we've never been there, like you're going to go introduce yourselves -Right. -- today at a meeting. Just hey, if you have time, stop by. Yeah, obviously. We stop by every day. So if -- if Dittman said hey, listen, I'm ordering you guys to go to school today to visit -Yeah, then you go to school. Okay. And if you didn't, that'd obviously be a violation? And there was no time constraint. There's not like go between 11:00 -Right. -- and 11:30. I said I'm -- let's -- I don't want to go right now. All right. That's cool, I'll just go give my stickers out. He came back, got more stickers and went back in. Okay. I have a note saved on my phone from that specific day -Page 191 Okay. -- saying -- I -- I'd have to read it. Dude, you should -- are you sure you don't want to come in? These are -- these are the cool kids, not the bastard kids or something, and I wrote it right on my phone that day, and it's still saved under that -- you asked me earlier, can you prove dates and times -Right. -- on -- on your phone, you know how it's date coded -Well, again, if you got dates and stuff on your phone, keep them and pass them on to your attorney so we can get those. See, that's why I get passionate about these little things, because it's -- it's so fake, man. It's just -- it's BS. Well, and this -I'm sorry. No, that's fine. I'm just trying to understand the dynamics of this particular issue. Yeah. So -- and excuse me for kind of going over this again, but if -- if Dittman had ordered you to do that, you would have to do that? Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 52 of 54 Page 192 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q A Q Yes. Okay. Absolutely. And if you didn't, that would be a violation? Correct. Okay. And you -- what you're telling me is this wasn't an order, you guys just normally did this, and this is how you handled it because you scheduled out your own time, right? A It was a nonchalant, if you have nothing to do, stop by. Q Got it. A And -- and I stopped by, I just didn't go in. I had my window down and I talked to people on the sidewalk. I also caught up on some report or something. Q Okay. MR. RIORDAN: Give me a couple minutes. I might be done. I'm just going to check my notes and stuff. MR. OLSON: Okay. (A discussion was held off the record.) BY MR. RIORDAN: Q I've just got two small areas to cover with you before we finish. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 A Q A Q 9 10 11 12 13 A 14 15 Q 16 17 A 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q A Page 193 I read somewhere that there was an issue about you discussing Assistant Chief Abraham being intoxicated on a boat; do you recall that issue? Uh-huh. Yes? Yes. Okay. My understanding from reading the documentation is that you were discussing with other officers that the assistant chief got drunk while on a houseboat, then had somebody jump into the spot as the driver, who took the fall for him? The rumor was -- is that somebody got arrested leaving his boathouse. Okay. And what -- what were you telling other officers about that rumor, if you recall? That -- we were in the -- okay. There's -- so there's a computer room, which is like the hangout/ -- that's where you do your reports and everything, that's where everybody's at -Got it. -- it's the gossip room, right? Right. Okay. So the gossip of the day was, did everybody hear about Abraham? So we were sitting there talking, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q A 9 10 11 12 Q A 13 14 Q 15 16 A 17 18 19 20 Q 21 22 A 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 194 and I was like hmm, okay, wonder if he switched, you know what I mean, because Abraham is a very heavy drinker, and then we were joking, like I wonder how many -- I wonder how many policy violations that would be, da, da, da, da, da. I'm like, Reed, how many you think that is? And who's Reed? Jerry Reed was an officer that sat back there like almost all day because he had a -- a -- like a knee replacement, knee surgery. Okay. So he was on like light-duty, so he'd be in the computer room all day. All right. So there was a -- this general discussion about whether -The -- the discussion was not about if Rob switched. The discussion was just like did you guys hear that Bob had a big party and people got arrested at -- leaving his boathouse. Okay. Okay. Who was in this area when this discussion occurred, if you recall? I think it was me, Pond, Dan, Reed -- I don't know if Bowe was in there. It might have just been us five, it might have been like right after we had roll call. Page 195 Okay. So there was this discussion about how many violations the assistant chief committed as a result of this boat party? A That was the conversation, yeah, I wonder how many -- like sarcastic, joking around. Q Okay. A Yeah. Q And -- and everybody was involved in this conversation or was it just you? A Me -- me, Reed said he never even heard about it I don't think, so I think it was me and Dale and -- I don't know. You know, like there's a rumor and everybody just sits there and bullshits about it. I -Sorry. MR. RIORDAN: No, it's -- I don't think you're going to offend her, or could. THE WITNESS: See, it -- it was like -it was like the topic of what we were all talking about. BY MR. RIORDAN: Q Were you the one that raised I wonder how many violations that -A I'm pretty sure I -- yeah, I'm -- I think I said that. Q Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 53 of 54 1 Q 2 3 4 5 6 7 A Q A Q 8 9 10 11 A Q A 12 13 14 15 Q A Q 16 17 18 A Q 19 20 A 21 22 23 Q A 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Page 196 Okay. There was also another issue after you were reassigned from NRO to patrol that -- you said something about the war has now started? That's what Pond said I said, but -Okay. What did you say? I may have said that. Okay. I assume you were -- you were pissed off about being reassigned? Uh-huh. Yes? I -- I assume. I don't recall saying that, so that's -Were -- were you upset about being reassigned? Absolutely. Okay. So -- and -- and this may have been something you said? It very well may have been. What would you have meant by that if you did say that? Probably that I'm going to report every mishap that I know about to everybody. Okay. Kind of cause general havoc? I don't know what -- not general havoc, but -you're basically taught to sit there and absorb it all, you know what I mean? Like I've done nothing Page 197 but do anything positive for this department, like I'm the reason that you have an NRO department, you bloat me around and use -- you could have Googled my name before August or September 1 and seen three pages of awesome videos and pictures that they did about me, like -- I've done nothing but bring positive credibility to the department, and you -you dog me like that for -- for having the courage to come forward. I'm telling everybody all the bad stuff I know, like why hold back anymore if that's how they -- you know what I mean, like -- I don't know, I'm sure that's what I meant, like -Okay. Like I'm not going to sit there and -- and -- and take it like other officers do. Those guys know that I'm not from there, those guys know that I've been looking to get out of there and come back to the Cities basically since I got there, like they know I went down there to get experience to build a resume and come back, like -- that wasn't my forever job, where like these people, like -- like Chuck Frandsen that got demoted, like you were making 130,000, now you're going to make 70, like they just -- they just screwed you, like you're going to have to sell your house and get a new -- 1 2 3 Q 5 A 4 6 7 8 9 Q A 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q A 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Q 12 13 14 15 16 A Q A Q 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Page 198 you know what I mean? Like these people are so invested that they can't speak up, you know what I mean? Okay. There's a -- a guy that has two wives right now, they -- they say the meanest things, like -- they have sexual harassment all the time. He's married to two women currently? He's married to a woman, a woman had an affair with another woman, and they have a three-way love, they're all together, and -- and the things they say to this -- like -- and I talked to him, he's a very good friend, and he's like I'm -- why am I going to -- I got three years left, I'm not going to -- I'm not going to risk losing my job or my retirement over these people, you know what I mean, like these people are so anchored into like needing that job -Right? -- that they're -- that they're just going to sit there and allow that kind of stuff to happen. I -I liked that job, but it's not -- I'm -- it's not my end-all, be-all, like -- you know what I mean, like I was taught you work to live, you don't live to work, like I'll go get another job, like Page 199 you're -- don't treat me like that, that's not how I was raised. I was raised to speak up against unjust things, you know, my -- my dad works -works for the unions, like -- you saw -- back here, supporter of people doing things -- bad things to good people, like I'm not -- I'm not going to tolerate that, like -- so I just -- that's probably what I meant, like, dude, I'm not going to sit back and watch it anymore, like I'm going to speak up. I'm not going to be the silent voice anymore. Just to kind of clean up, and this is a general question -Uh-huh. -- we've talked about a lot of stuff today -Uh-huh. -- and I asked you about, you know, your -- what you felt was the discriminating actions that were taken against you by the La Crosse Police Department; have we discussed all those actions here today? The what? Let me try that again. I asked you, you know, what you felt the La Crosse Police Department did to discriminate you, and we've discussed that throughout the day; Case: 3:19-cv-00033-slc Document #: 24 Filed: 08/30/19 Page 54 of 54 Page 200 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 A Q A Q have we covered all of the instances that you felt discriminated against by the police department? Yes. Okay. I believe so. And -- and that's fine, I just wanted to make sure I'm -- I at least got -- I touched on all of it, so -- we're done here today. I appreciate your time. Thank you. (Deposition concluded at 2:22 p.m.) (Original exhibits attached to the original transcript; copies provided to attorneys ordering exhibit copies.) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 201 1 2 STATE OF WISCONSIN ) ) SS: MILWAUKEE COUNTY ) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 I, Shelly Loniello, Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Wisconsin, do hereby certify that the preceding deposition was recorded by me and reduced to writing under my personal direction. I further certify that said deposition was taken at von BRIESEN & ROPER, s.c., 10 East Doty Street, Suite 900, Madison, Wisconsin, on the 2nd day of March, 2018, commencing at 9:59 a.m. I further certify that I am not a relative or employee or attorney or counsel of any of the parties, or a relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, or financially interested, directly or indirectly, in this action. In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and affixed my seal of office on this 13th day of March, 2018. 22 ________________________________ SHELLY LONIELLO, RPR Notary Public 25 My commission expires July 01, 2021. 23 24