SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - UNITED STATES FOREST SERVICE, ) ET AL., ) Petitioners, v. ) ) No. 18-1584 COWPASTURE RIVER PRESERVATION ) ASSOCIATION, ET AL., ) Respondents. ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ATLANTIC COAST PIPELINE, LLC, Petitioner, v. ) ) ) No. 18-1587 COWPASTURE RIVER PRESERVATION ) ASSOCIATION, ET AL., ) Respondents. ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pages: 1 through 67 Place: Washington, D.C. Date: February 24, 2020 HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION Official Reporters 1220 L Street, N.W., Suite 206 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 628-4888 www.hrccourtreporters.com Official - Subject to Final Review 1 1 IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 3 UNITED STATES FOREST SERVICE, ) 4 ET AL., ) 5 6 Petitioners, v. ) ) No. 18-1584 7 COWPASTURE RIVER PRESERVATION ) 8 ASSOCIATION, ET AL., ) 9 Respondents. ) 10 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 11 ATLANTIC COAST PIPELINE, LLC, 12 13 Petitioner, v. ) ) ) No. 18-1587 14 COWPASTURE RIVER PRESERVATION ) 15 ASSOCIATION, ET AL., ) 16 17 Respondents. ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 18 19 20 Washington, D.C. Monday, February 24, 2020 21 22 The above-entitled matter came on for 23 oral argument before the Supreme Court of the 24 United States at 10:07 a.m. 25 Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 ANTHONY A. YANG, Assistant to the Solicitor General, 3 Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.; 4 on behalf of the Petitioners in 18-1584. 5 6 PAUL D. CLEMENT, Washington, D.C.; on behalf of the Petitioner in 18-1587. 7 MICHAEL K. KELLOGG, Washington, D.C.; 8 on behalf of the Respondents. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 3 1 C O N T E N T S 2 ORAL ARGUMENT OF: 3 ANTHONY A. YANG, ESQ. 4 On behalf of the Petitioners 5 in 18-1584 6 ORAL ARGUMENT OF: 7 PAUL D. CLEMENT, ESQ. 8 On behalf of the Petitioner 9 in 18-1587 10 ORAL ARGUMENT OF: 11 MICHAEL K. KELLOGG, ESQ. 12 On behalf of the Respondents 13 REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF: 14 ANTHONY A. YANG, ESQ. 15 On behalf of the Petitioners 16 in 18-1584 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Heritage Reporting Corporation PAGE: 4 17 34 63 Official - Subject to Final Review 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 (10:07 a.m.) 3 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: We'll hear 4 argument first this morning in Case 18-1584, the 5 United States Forest Service versus Cowpasture 6 River Preservation Association, and the 7 consolidated case. 8 Mr. Yang. 9 ORAL ARGUMENT OF ANTHONY A. YANG 10 ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS IN 18-1584 11 12 MR. YANG: Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court: 13 The issue in this case is whether the 14 Trails Act converts all federal, state, and 15 private lands traversed by the Appalachian Trail 16 into lands administered by the Park Service. 17 does not. 18 It The Act simply charges the Secretary 19 of the Interior with overall administration of a 20 trail. 21 agency administering the trail and the land 22 managing agencies administering the land. 23 Park Service thus coordinates -- or -- agencies 24 and organizations responsible for their own 25 segments of the trail, and informs certain It repeatedly distinguishes between the Heritage Reporting Corporation The Official - Subject to Final Review 5 1 trail-wide responsibilities, but the land 2 managing agencies ultimately -- ultimately take 3 care of the trail on their lands. 4 If a tree falls on forest lands over 5 the trail, it's the Forest Service that's 6 responsible for it. 7 Park Service employees at Harpers Ferry and ask 8 them to come out and fix the tree. 9 You don't call the nine Respondents' theory is inconsistent 10 with the Act and would dramatically change the 11 national trail system. 12 instance, argue that the trail is land and it's 13 administered by the Park Service. 14 position is that the entire trail is federally 15 administered -- a federally administered area of 16 land. 17 Respondents, for So their But if you look at page 14a, this is 18 Section 1246(h)(1), it requires that the 19 secretary shall encourage states to operate, 20 develop, and maintain portions of such trails -- 21 and this is scenic trails -- located outside the 22 boundaries of federally administrated areas. 23 If they're right, there is no thing, 24 nothing, outside the -- the trail outside the 25 federal administrated areas because the trail is Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 6 1 a federally administered area. 2 cannot be right. 3 Their reading Second -- it would also dramatically 4 increase -- dramatically change the trail system 5 by transferring vast amounts of land into the 6 National Park Service, which the Park -- the 7 park system, which the Park Service administers 8 and regulates to conserve the natural 9 environment. Not only would TVA's two 10 hydroelectric dams be put in the system; nearly 11 a thousand miles of the Forest Service lands, 12 more than a dozen towns, including Hanover, New 13 Hampshire and Dartmouth College, which crosses 14 straight through, numerous bridges over rivers, 15 including the bridge over the Hudson near West 16 Point, over 600 roads, a hundred interstates and 17 other highways. 18 ever thought that such all lands and waters 19 under the trails were -- 20 21 And until this case, no one has JUSTICE GINSBURG: Mr. Yang, may I ask you a preliminary -- 22 MR. YANG: Sure. 23 JUSTICE GINSBURG: -- preliminary 24 question? This issue of the Mineral Leasing Act 25 is the third of the issues that the Fourth Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 7 1 Circuit dealt with, and it was the one to which 2 they devoted the least number of pages. 3 This case, in any event, am I right, 4 is going back for reconsideration of the 5 environmental consequences, going back under the 6 Forest Management Act and the National -- NEPA? 7 MR. YANG: 8 JUSTICE GINSBURG: 9 Correct. So, since those reviews will be going on, is there the potential 10 that the Mineral Leasing Act question will be 11 moot because the decision might be that under 12 that legislation, the environmental legislation, 13 this crossing over of the -- the trail is 14 impermissible? 15 MR. YANG: Yeah, it -- the case -- 16 that issue is not moot now. 17 potentially be moot, but that is true about 18 inter- -- any interlocutory case that this -- 19 the Court takes up. 20 that make the issue before the Court no longer 21 necessary at the end of the day. 22 It could Things can change that -- But the Court already considered that 23 at the cert stage. The reason that this is an 24 important issue is because if the trail cannot 25 be -- the right-of-way cannot cross 600 feet Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 8 1 under the trail and come in and out not on Park 2 Service or Forest Service property but on 3 private land, then the whole enterprise is done. 4 We're done. 5 They have to start over. So that is an important and nationally 6 significant issue that the Court granted cert 7 on. So that's why we're here. 8 9 JUSTICE GINSBURG: But then what do we make of the line in the reply brief that says no 10 one doubts that the trail is in the National 11 Park System? 12 MR. YANG: I think what we're saying 13 is that the trail is administered by the Park 14 Service. 15 System. 16 It's not lands in the National Park One of the main issues in this case is 17 whether -- in stating that the Secretary of the 18 Interior shall primarily administer the trail as 19 a foot -- the Appalachian Trail as a footpath, 20 whether that delegation, which Congress then 21 said concerns the overall administration of the 22 trail, whether that confers authority to 23 administer the lands over which the trail 24 passes. 25 And our answer is that is not the Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 9 1 case, and it's inconsistent, not only with the 2 text of the statute, but the way that the 3 statute has been implemented, as well as the way 4 that the Appalachian Trail has existed even 5 before the statute. 6 JUSTICE GINSBURG: 7 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: 8 JUSTICE GINSBURG: 9 Well -Mr. Yang, you --- is it inconsistent with the statutory provision that 10 says the National Park System, first we're told, 11 yes, this trail is in the National Park System, 12 and then the statutory definition of the 13 National Park System says it consists of certain 14 areas of land and water. 15 not land if it's in the National Park System? 16 17 MR. YANG: reply? So how is the trail What -- what part of the I'm trying to -- I don't remember -- 18 JUSTICE GINSBURG: 19 MR. YANG: 20 JUSTICE GINSBURG: The -- -- it saying that. -- reply brief, 17, 21 says no one doubts that the trail -- I think 22 it's toward the end of the page -- no one doubts 23 that the trail is in the National Park System. 24 25 MR. YANG: I'm not seeing -- is this our reply brief? Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 10 1 2 JUSTICE GINSBURG: No, it's the other reply brief. 3 MR. YANG: Oh. I think, Mr. 4 Clement -- I don't have that in front of me 5 right now. 6 7 JUSTICE GINSBURG: Then maybe we'll ask Mr. Clement. 8 9 I think Mr. -- MR. YANG: address that. Mr. Clement may be able to But I think our -- our view, and 10 I think it's shared by Mr. Clement, that the -- 11 the trail is not land and certainly not land 12 that's administered within the meaning of the 13 Mineral -- 14 JUSTICE KAGAN: 15 MR. YANG: 16 JUSTICE KAGAN: It's a -- -- Leasing Act. -- difficult 17 distinction to wrap one's head around, Mr. Yang. 18 You know, I -- I would understand -- if you said 19 to me the trail traverses the forest, everybody 20 would understand what that meant. 21 broader forest and the trail cuts a path through 22 it. 23 There's some But you're saying that the trail is 24 distinct from the trail. I mean, from the -- 25 from the land that is the trail. I don't know Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 11 1 really quite how to say it except that nobody 2 makes this distinction in real life. 3 4 MR. YANG: I -- I don't know if that's -- 5 JUSTICE KAGAN: When you walk on the 6 trail, when you bike on the trail, when you 7 backpack on the trail, you're backpacking and 8 biking and walking on land, aren't you? 9 MR. YANG: You're certainly sometimes 10 walking on land. 11 like bridges. 12 instance, trails include waterways. 13 You're also walking on things You're also walking on -- for So Congress recently enacted, expanded 14 the Lewis and Clark Trail to include the Ohio 15 River. 16 the Mississippi, then the Missouri up to 17 St. Louis, and all the way to the -- to the West 18 Coast from there. 19 waters are all in the National Park Service. 20 And that's because the trail traverses the lands 21 and waters, and when you move a trail -- these 22 trails get relocated for all kinds of reasons 23 small or -- or large. 24 25 All of the Ohio River from Pittsburgh to No one thinks that those JUSTICE KAGAN: They may get relocated, but that just means that the -- now Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 12 1 there's different land. 2 3 MR. YANG: And it just -- But that means that the trail isn't -- 4 JUSTICE KAGAN: As a matter of plain 5 English -- I mean, both of your briefs -- and 6 you're great brief writers and you're great 7 writers, and -- and the briefs are -- are 8 strange to read because you can't ever just say 9 what you mean, which is that the trail is a 10 piece of land, so you find yourself wrapped up 11 in these strange locutions about the trail 12 traversing land. 13 14 It's like you're imagining some thing that goes on top of it somehow. 15 MR. YANG: I don't believe so. This 16 -- the Trails Act needs to be read in the 17 context of all the statutes that deal with land 18 administration. 19 law. 20 This is a large area of the Those trails -- those -- those 21 statutes make very clear when Congress wants to 22 shift administrative responsibility over land. 23 So, for instance, the Rivers Act enacted the 24 very same day. 25 JUSTICE KAGAN: Let me ask you a Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 13 1 question, Mr. Yang, because you said, and this 2 would be very meaningful to me, you said you 3 would call the Forest Service if there -- if a 4 -- if a tree fell over the path. 5 MR. YANG: Yep. 6 JUSTICE KAGAN: I guess I -- when I 7 looked at these regulations, what strikes me 8 about them is that on the Appalachian Trail, it 9 seems to me that the National Park Service -- it 10 would be different on the Pacific Trail, which 11 is a weirdness of its own, but -- but on -- in 12 the -- on the Appalachian Trail, it's the 13 National Park Service that regulates uses along 14 the trail, vehicles on the trail, development 15 and maintenance of the trail. 16 In other words, it's the National Park 17 Service that basically does land use regulation 18 and the land is the trail. 19 MR. YANG: The regulation I believe 20 you are talking about is in I, this -- the 21 authority you're talking about? 22 23 JUSTICE KAGAN: This is -- this is 1246, it's the statute, 1246(c). 24 MR. YANG: Right. 25 JUSTICE KAGAN: 1246(f), 1246(h)(1), Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 14 1 1246(I) -- 2 MR. YANG: I requires that the -- 3 JUSTICE KAGAN: Excuse me. It 4 basically puts the director of the Park Service 5 in charge of regulating land use on the trail, 6 on the land. 7 MR. YANG: I don't think that's 8 correct. 9 Trail markers, if you're looking at (c), it -- 10 11 It does provide for certain things. Congress forbids cars on trails. When you are looking at regulatory 12 authority, that's under (i), there it requires 13 the concurrence of the heads of any other 14 federal agencies administering the lands. 15 in fact, the way this has been implemented is 16 the -- the Park Service has enacted a regulation 17 at 36 CFR 7.100, that applies only on Park 18 Service-administered land. 19 JUSTICE KAGAN: And, I will just give you 20 an example and you can tell me what you make of 21 it because it would seem to me to cover the case 22 where the tree falls on the trail. 23 It says, this is 1246(h)(1): The 24 Secretary charged with the administration -- 25 which here is the Secretary of Interior -- shall Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 15 1 provide for the development and maintenance of 2 these trails. 3 MR. YANG: Yes. And it says "shall 4 provide for," not do it. 5 provided for is the way it's always been 6 provided for, which is through a Memorandum of 7 Agreement with the land managing agencies. 8 the Forest Service has a Memorandum of Agreement 9 that dates back to 1970 and it requires the 10 The way that is So Forest Service -- 11 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Mr. Yang, before 12 your time goes on, because it is inherent in how 13 you are answering Justice Kagan, why is it that 14 two agencies can't have simultaneous 15 administration, and even possibly management 16 responsibilities? 17 I -- I was taken with the NRDC's 18 amicus brief, and the Mineral Leasing Act has an 19 entire provision devoted to when are two 20 agencies responsible to administer a piece of 21 land. 22 MR. YANG: That -- 23 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Let me finish my 24 question. And assuming that I accept that two 25 agencies can both administer, wouldn't the Trail Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 16 1 Act supersede the mineral -- the Forest 2 Department's permission to grant a right-of-way 3 for pipes, because doesn't the Trail Act 4 supersede any other permission? 5 MR. YANG: The answer is no, there 6 needs to be more clarity. 7 when it does that, but let me address -- 8 9 10 11 Congress acts clearly JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Well, it has, it has, but why can't two agencies have simultaneous or coexistent responsibilities? CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Your -- your 12 time has expired but I will allow you to very 13 briefly respond. 14 MR. YANG: 15 instances where that happens. 16 trails, parcels administered separately. 17 right-of-way goes through it. 18 There is three types of Two separate A That's one. There's another instance where land's 19 withdrawn from the public lands and provided for 20 a military use. 21 it's not in the relevant sense because it is 22 temporarily separated. 23 That is in some ways dual, but And then, third, sometimes you take 24 mineral rights and leave it with the underlying 25 agency, but nothing like this with Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 17 1 contemporaneous and coterminous administration 2 of the land. 3 4 You're requiring two agency heads with different agency management -- 5 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: 6 MR. YANG: 7 -- and different systems to -- to regulate the same thing. 8 9 Thank you. CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: -- Mr. Thank you, Mr. Yang. 10 Mr. Clement. 11 ORAL ARGUMENT OF PAUL D. CLEMENT ON 12 BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER IN 18-1587 13 MR. CLEMENT: 14 15 Mr. Chief Justice and may it please the Court: Respondents' effort to convert all of 16 the land traversed by a Park 17 Service-administered trail into lands in the 18 National Park Service fails for reasons of text, 19 context, and consequences. 20 First, as a matter of text, multiple 21 provisions of the Trails Act draw a distinction 22 between the trail and the land it traverses and 23 makes clear that administrative authority is 24 granted only over the former and leaves the 25 latter jurisdiction over the lands themselves Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 18 1 undisturbed. 2 Moreover, the Trails Act itself makes 3 clear that the trail can be moved. 4 sense for a trail or a trail route to move every 5 time a tree falls. 6 the status of lands to change every time the 7 route moves. 8 9 It makes It doesn't make sense for The context powerfully reinforces this key distinction. If you want to see a model of 10 a statute that transfers land between federal 11 agencies and makes the land subject to the 12 Organic Act, you need look no further than the 13 Rivers Act passed the same day by the same 14 Congress. 15 The reason, though, when it did that 16 in the Rivers Act it did exactly what you'd 17 expect it to do when it transfers land, it 18 talked about the width of the land transferred, 19 the acreage involved and then left no doubt that 20 if the land was transferred to the Park Service, 21 it became subject to the Organic Act. 22 And then, of course, there are the 23 untenable consequences of Respondents' tradition 24 -- position. 25 of park land gets transferred to the Forest Thousands and thousands of acres Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 19 1 Service and these thousand mile trails get 2 converted into barriers to pipeline development. 3 JUSTICE BREYER: Where is the 4 pipeline? I'm -- I'm trying to -- not in two 5 dimensions, but in three. 6 trail -- what I couldn't get out of the briefs, 7 I mean, there's a trail -- 8 MR. CLEMENT: 9 JUSTICE BREYER: 10 across a ridge. 11 I mean, think of a Yeah. -- and say it's going It's going along a ridge. Now, they don't want to put the 12 pipeline on the trail. They want to put it 13 somewhere underground. Well, how far from where 14 the trail is up here, how far below is the 15 pipeline supposed to go? 16 MR. CLEMENT: Six hundred feet. 17 JUSTICE BREYER: Six hundred feet 18 below. And where does it enter? 19 on -- on, you know, there is an easement or 20 something for views and so forth? 21 MR. CLEMENT: 22 JUSTICE BREYER: Does it enter Right, right. Does it enter the 23 ground within the area that is within that 24 easement or before and it comes out after? 25 MR. CLEMENT: It enters and exits on Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 20 1 private land, not on Forest Service land. 2 JUSTICE BREYER: 3 MR. CLEMENT: 4 I see. Okay. The problem with briefs is they're two-dimensional. 5 JUSTICE BREYER: 6 MR. CLEMENT: Got it. Got it. But, I mean, the way to 7 understand this, there is a ridge line. Up here 8 on the type of the ridge is the Appalachian 9 Trail and the Blue Ridge Parkway. And then the 10 pipeline route goes under both, 600 feet below 11 the trail and probably 800 feet below the 12 parkway, because the parkway's a little bit 13 higher on that -- 14 15 JUSTICE BREYER: get to the area -- 16 MR. CLEMENT: 17 JUSTICE BREYER: 18 the area? 19 views. 20 It enters before you Exactly. -- and leaves after Which is reserved to the trail or the MR. CLEMENT: Exactly. Which is why 21 both the Park Service and the Forest Service who 22 care very much about the experience on both the 23 trail and the Parkway could conclude that this 24 particular pipeline, given how far below all of 25 the action it was crossing, did not disturb the Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 21 1 experience -- 2 JUSTICE ALITO: 3 MR. CLEMENT: 4 5 Well -- -- of the trail or the pipeline. JUSTICE ALITO: Now I had the same 6 thought as Justice Breyer, but maybe there's 7 something wrong with this simple way of looking 8 at the case. 9 of something that is on top of the earth. 10 When I think of a trail, I think And when I think of a pipeline that is 11 600 feet below the surface, that doesn't seem 12 like a trail. 13 distinction between the trail and the land, why 14 can't we just say that the trail is on the 15 surface and something that happens 600 feet 16 below the surface is not the trail? 17 So instead of having to draw this MR. CLEMENT: You could do that, 18 Justice Alito, and I suppose my clients would be 19 perfectly happy to win this case on that ground. 20 I do think, though, that there is a critical 21 difference between administrative authority over 22 that trail up there and administrative authority 23 over the lands. 24 25 And it may be a little bit hard to square with your first reading of 1246(h)(1), Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 22 1 but it is the case that when a tree falls in the 2 national forest in Georgia or in New Hampshire, 3 the nine or ten federal employees who are the 4 entire total of the park unit in -- that 5 administers the trail from Harpers Ferry, West 6 Virginia do not get on a plane and fly up to New 7 Hampshire and Georgia and deal with it. 8 JUSTICE ALITO: 9 MR. CLEMENT: 10 So -- It's the Forest Service. JUSTICE ALITO: So what is the 11 practical difference between viewing the case in 12 those two ways, surface, 600 feet below, trail, 13 land. 14 What is the difference between those? MR. CLEMENT: So for pipelines, I 15 suppose, because most of them are going to go 16 pretty far under, I -- I think you could draw 17 that distinction. 18 practical matter, you would still have 19 differences. 20 I think, though, as a I mean, I'll give you just one very 21 practical example. In the national forest up in 22 New Hampshire, one of -- because national 23 forests are for multi-uses, unlike the Park 24 Service's, which are supposed to be conserved 25 and unimpaired, so park -- forest land can be Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 23 1 used for multiple purposes. 2 One of the purposes that is allowed in 3 New Hampshire is to tap the maple trees to get 4 sap out of the trees. 5 the surface of the trail. 6 The sap lines run across And they do that with the permission 7 of the Forest Service. So that is something 8 that, you know, I think if you were to construe 9 all of a sudden that the surface is in -- is 10 lands in the National Park Service, that would 11 all of a sudden -- 12 JUSTICE BREYER: 13 MR. CLEMENT: 14 No, but that -- -- be under the Park Service jurisdiction. 15 JUSTICE BREYER: I think that isn't 16 quite the question. I mean, we don't have to 17 decide every issue, you know, in the Park 18 Service. 19 want to challenge it or somebody, fine. 20 question was what harm would we do if we just 21 restrict this to the question that answers it, 22 that -- in your view? 23 but it would have to do with pipelines, and it 24 would have to do with things you cannot see from 25 the trail, and it would have to do with things And if the people who make the sap The You'd win, you'd said, Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 24 1 that are well below the ground. 2 And on those, which is before -- you 3 see, that's, I think, the point. 4 -- why decide cases in this Court that have all 5 kinds of implications which we can't quite see, 6 like that one? 7 the Park Service coming and removing a tree, let 8 them. 9 And we don't If somebody wants to challenge MR. CLEMENT: So, Justice Breyer, I 10 represent the Atlantic Coast Pipeline. 11 my job to resist winning this case on a narrow 12 ground. 13 (Laughter.) 14 MR. CLEMENT: 15 It's not So I am not going to do that. 16 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: 17 JUSTICE BREYER: 18 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: 19 very grateful you said that. 20 are, aren't there, some problems with that view 21 inherent in the language of the Act and in 22 definitions? 23 Mr. Clement -- Yeah. Mr. Clement, I'm I think that there Doesn't the Act give the Park Service 24 the right for easements below or on top of the 25 trail? Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 25 1 MR. CLEMENT: That's not how we read 2 that provision, Justice Sotomayor. 3 agree with the government in its reply brief 4 that the right way to read 1248(a) is that if 5 it's on Forest Service land, it's the Forest 6 Service that could grant an easement -- 7 8 9 10 11 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: I mean, we Then let me take a different -MR. CLEMENT: -- and if it's on Park Service land -JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: -- tact. 12 Generally, when you speak of land, surface land, 13 you're talking about the land underneath it? 14 That's what the cases mostly say, almost always, 15 unless you separate out the two? 16 MR. CLEMENT: Well, Justice Sotomayor, 17 I'm not going to spend too much time disagreeing 18 with you because there is a reason we briefed 19 the case the way we briefed it. 20 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: So why don't you 21 explain that reason? Why -- there is a 22 superficial appeal -- I, after reading -- 23 MR. CLEMENT: 24 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: 25 Sure. -- the briefs and looking at the statute, didn't think it was Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 26 1 viable. 2 briefed it this way. 3 4 You didn't either, or you would have MR. CLEMENT: viable. Well, I -- I think it's And I would say one -- 5 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: 6 MR. CLEMENT: It's just -- If I could say one thing 7 in limited defense of it, which is to say when 8 you have -- and we have a case that we cite to 9 this effect, and it's a case of this Court in 10 our reply brief, that generally speaking if you 11 grant a right-of-way, which is one way of 12 thinking about the trail, it doesn't affect 13 subsurface rights. 14 support this way of thinking about it. 15 So that actually does But here's why we briefed it in the 16 more straightforward way that you do have to 17 maintain the difference between the trail and 18 the lands. 19 the other side is not limited to the Appalachian 20 Trail. 21 It says that all of the lands -- because the 22 Park Service administers the whole trail. 23 it's not just the Appalachian Trail. 24 about two dozen trails that the Park Service 25 administers. And that is because the argument on It's not even limited to federal lands. Heritage Reporting Corporation And There's Official - Subject to Final Review 27 1 And they not only go over bridges and 2 roads; some of them are downtown. 3 Park Service administers the Selma to Montgomery 4 National Historical Trail. 5 is lands in the Park Service because we just 6 can't get our head around the idea that trails 7 are different from land, then parts of downtown 8 Selma, downtown Montgomery are lands of the 9 National Park Service. 10 I mean, the Now, if that trail The Oregon National Historical Trail, 11 also administered by the Park Service, starts in 12 downtown Kansas City, ends up in downtown 13 Portland, Oregon. 14 City or Portland, Oregon are lands in the 15 National Park Service. 16 I don't think downtown Kansas JUSTICE KAGAN: Mr. Clement, could -- 17 if -- if we go back to Justice Alito's idea, 18 which was also the way I thought about it, that 19 that was the way to cut this -- but then I 20 started looking around and the -- the mineral -- 21 I wondered whether you can win under that 22 approach. 23 So here's is the argument that you 24 can't win under the surface/subsurface approach, 25 is that -- is that the Mineral Leasing Act gives Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 28 1 the authority to do rights-of-way, including 2 pipelines, to the -- to the -- to the secretary 3 that has -- it talks about the surface. 4 where the surface of all the federal lands 5 involved in a proposed right-of-way is under the 6 jurisdiction of one federal agency, the agency 7 head is authorized to grant the right-of-way. 8 9 It says So that suggests under the MLA, that the right-of-way, the substratum, is given to 10 the person with control over the surface. 11 that not true? 12 MR. CLEMENT: Is So if I were going to 13 warm to the topic of trying to win this case on 14 the alternative ground, what I would tell you 15 about that is I would say that's not how I 16 actually read the provisions together. 17 -- that's sort of a subsidiary provision that 18 says how you deal with pipeline rights-of-way 19 when you have two agencies with jurisdiction 20 over the surface. 21 but when it's really trying to figure out what's 22 the right agency head, it asks which agency head 23 has jurisdiction over the lands. 24 that that -- it doesn't say surface in that 25 provision. That's And it uses that formulation, And I think And I think that's the critical Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 29 1 provision. 2 But with one more word about sort of 3 the theory we've actually articulated, I do 4 think if you look at all of these trails, you'll 5 see why Congress picked a different term. 6 think it's important to know, it's not like we 7 don't have a term in the statute for the trails. 8 They are components in the national trail 9 system. 10 11 And I And that's what Congress called them that. And they called them that on the same 12 day they passed the Rivers Act, where they 13 actually talked about transferring jurisdiction, 14 they talked about acreage. 15 section of the Rivers Act, section 1280, that 16 talks about the interaction of the Rivers Act 17 and the Mineral Leasing Act. 18 necessary because Congress knew what it was 19 doing and it was transferring land and making 20 new lands in the National Park System subject to 21 the Organic Act. 22 There's a separate All of that was It said it in haec verba. It was doing no such thing in the 23 Trails Act. Congress isn't crazy. They were 24 creating tens of thousands of miles of trails, 25 most of which would be administered by the Park Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 30 1 Service. 2 were, like, quadrupling -- I don't know, 3 probably 40 times increasing the size of the 4 lands in the National Park System. 5 They were under no delusion that they If you look at those two maps at the 6 back of our reply brief, you can see the 7 difference in the implications of the theories. 8 It's very modest to look at the second map, 9 which shows you sort of what I would have called 10 before I got involved in this case the true 11 National Park System. 12 pipeline around that. 13 Easy enough to steer a If you look at the national trails 14 system, it would be a huge barrier to pipeline 15 development. 16 the elephants-in-the-mouse-hole-type approach to 17 a statute, this is one where it really calls 18 out -- especially if you think about the Trails 19 Act, it's got those wonderful quaint provisions 20 that are getting into the details of whether the 21 Park Service or the Forest Service or the 22 private landowners are the ones that should 23 blaze the trail. 24 25 And if you're ever going to apply A statute that addresses those kind of details in that kind of granular specificity Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 31 1 should not be interpreted to have these 2 transformative effects sub silentio. 3 forget -- I mean, I know you said it's -- well, 4 there is that Pacific Crest Trail, there's also 5 the Continental Divide Trail, there's also the 6 Pacific Northwest Trail, who are all 7 administered by the Forest Service. 8 9 JUSTICE GINSBURG: MR. CLEMENT: 11 JUSTICE GINSBURG: 13 What do you do with your line that I asked Mr. Yang about? 10 12 And don't So -You have said that the trail is in the National Park System. MR. CLEMENT: So, Justice Ginsburg, 14 with all respect, what I do with that line is I 15 keep reading, because it says no one doubts that 16 the trail is in the park system to the extent 17 that the park system administers the trail. 18 And to that extent, it is in the 19 National Park System. There are nine or ten 20 rangers sitting in Harpers Ferry, West Virginia, 21 and they have Park Service uniforms. 22 and there probably are statements, offhanded 23 statements, in documents by the Park Service 24 that says, yeah, the trail -- the entire trail 25 is in the Park Service. So it -- But that doesn't make Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 32 1 all of the lands traversed by the trail lands in 2 the National Park Service pursuant to the 3 Organic Act. 4 That view of the statute creates all 5 sorts of anomalies. 6 the National Park Service are subject to 7 regulation by the Secretary of Interior the way 8 you would expect it to, without having to get 9 any assent from another agency. 10 All of the other lands of JUSTICE ALITO: When the statute says 11 that the park system consists of lands 12 administered by the Park Service, does it mean 13 administered in full, administered exclusively 14 by the Park Service, or administered in any 15 sense by the Park Service? 16 MR. CLEMENT: I think if it has to 17 mean one of those things, it probably means 18 administered in full. 19 really, really means is lands. 20 But what I think it And I think that -- I mean, although 21 it -- you know, I don't really think it's as 22 metaphysical as you think. 23 philosophers at the Park Service and the Forest 24 Service haven't had any problem with this for 50 25 years. I mean, the -- the They have dealt with the reality that Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 33 1 the trail is, in an administrative sense, under 2 the Park Service, but on a day-to-day basis, the 3 lands stay where they are. 4 5 JUSTICE ALITO: The Park Service -- Let me -- let me ask you this -- 6 MR. CLEMENT: Sure. 7 JUSTICE ALITO: -- before your time 8 runs out. 9 I assume the Park Service has an office here in 10 Is the office of the Park Service -- Washington. 11 MR. CLEMENT: Yes. 12 JUSTICE ALITO: Is that part of the -- 13 is that part of the park system? 14 MR. CLEMENT: 15 16 17 18 19 I don't think it's an area of land administered by the Park Service. JUSTICE ALITO: But the -- but it's administered by the Park Service, isn't it? MR. CLEMENT: No, you're right. And it's in the National Park system in some sense. 20 JUSTICE ALITO: 21 MR. CLEMENT: It is? Yeah, but I don't think 22 they have to maintain that building in its 23 unimpaired national state -- natural state, 24 which just goes to show not everything that's in 25 the park system in some loose sense is subject Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 34 1 to the restrictions of the Organic Act, which 2 required the system -- the Service to keep them 3 in an unimpaired state. 4 5 Many thanks. CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Clement. 6 Mr. Kellogg. 7 ORAL ARGUMENT OF MICHAEL K. KELLOGG 8 ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENTS 9 10 11 MR. KELLOGG: Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court: I want to go directly to the question 12 of whether there's an easy out in this case by 13 saying it's 600 feet under the ground, so it 14 doesn't count. 15 to 1248(a), which specifically says that rights 16 of ways are to be granted by the Secretary of 17 the Interior in this case for anything, 18 "rights-of-ways upon, over, under, across, or 19 along any components of the Appalachian Trail." 20 I'll call the Court's attention So "under" counts, as Justice Kagan 21 pointed out, the Mineral Leasing Act itself 22 talks about who has jurisdiction over the 23 surface lands. 24 to go under those lands, but it's the one who 25 administers the surface of the lands. Obviously the pipeline is going Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 35 1 And we know that the Park Service 2 administer these lands because Congress made 3 that very clear in the three interlocking 4 statutes at issue here. 5 The Trails Act in 1968 says, without 6 any equivocation, the Appalachian Trail shall be 7 administered by the Secretary of the Interior 8 who has delegated that to the Park Service. 9 General Authorities Act two years later said all 10 areas administered by the Park Service, without 11 limitation, are part of one National Park 12 system. 13 The If it's administered by the Park 14 Service, it is an area of land or water. 15 Whether it's a historic building, whether it's a 16 monument, whether it's a parkway, or whether 17 it's a trail, it is -- if it's administered, it 18 counts as an area of land, which the Court in 19 the Sturgeon case pointed out it's up to 20 Congress to decide how broadly to use the term 21 "land" in a statute. 22 And, finally, the Mineral Leasing Act 23 makes it absolutely clear that it extends the 24 rights for -- to all federal lands, except lands 25 in the National Park system. Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 36 1 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Mr. Kellogg, 2 if you have an easement over land, is there 3 anything unusual about that that someone, a 4 separation, in other words, before traversing 5 over the land and recognition that the land 6 itself belongs to somebody else? 7 MR. KELLOGG: Well, we're not saying 8 if there's -- let's say we have an easement for 9 the trail over private land or state land. 10 11 12 13 The Mineral Leasing Act doesn't cover those. CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: No, no, I know, I'm not talking -- I'm speaking -MR. KELLOGG: They can build a 14 pipeline under private lands or under state 15 lands and, in fact, they have done two of that 16 under the Appalachian Trail in just the past 17 five years. 18 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: I'm thinking 19 more, there seems to be a debate on some 20 metaphysical level about whether you can have a 21 trail, whether you can have land under it, or 22 interests in land that are different. 23 it doesn't strike me as that unusual a concept 24 that there are property rights that are distinct 25 from rights in the land. Heritage Reporting Corporation I just -- Official - Subject to Final Review 37 1 But that still -- I mean, if I give 2 somebody an easement to walk across my backyard 3 to get somewhere, I -- I don't think that I'm 4 giving up the land. 5 It's still my land. MR. KELLOGG: Well, as we point out in 6 the brief, there are two definitions of 7 right-of-way. 8 passage over somebody else's land. 9 other refers to the strip of land itself over 10 11 One is an abstract right of And the which passage is maintained. The Trails Act repeatedly uses the 12 second definition, when it says you are going to 13 require rights of ways for the trail. 14 use condemnation proceedings to acquire land for 15 the trail. 16 You can And most importantly of all, when it 17 says you can grant, the Secretary -- the Park 18 Service grant a right-of-way over the trail. 19 even using the first definition as a right of 20 passage over land, it's indicating that the 21 trail itself is land. 22 JUSTICE ALITO: So When the -- when the 23 trail crosses private land, what property rights 24 do you think the Park Service has with respect 25 to those private lands? Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 38 1 MR. KELLOGG: I wouldn't say that they 2 have property rights, but as with any in-holding 3 of the National Park system or the Forest 4 Service, which has lots of in-holdings of 5 private land, there is still certain regulations 6 that can be established for those lands. 7 JUSTICE ALITO: Well, I don't think 8 that answers my question. 9 property rights over the private land? 10 MR. KELLOGG: 11 JUSTICE ALITO: Do they have any They have -Can the Trail Act take 12 any property rights away from private 13 landowners, other than the -- essentially an 14 easement? 15 MR. KELLOGG: Essentially what they 16 have is an easement. 17 clear -- first of all, I should point out that 18 the Forest Service regulations specifically 19 exclude private and state lands from the 20 applicability of their regulations, with a few 21 exceptions. 22 23 Like in 36 CFR 6.2 it says you can't put solid waste in these private lands. 24 25 But this Court has made JUSTICE ALITO: Well, if you have only -- Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 39 1 2 MR. KELLOGG: So there is some restriction. 3 JUSTICE ALITO: If you have only an 4 easement over private land, do you have anything 5 more over land that is administered by the 6 Forest Service? 7 MR. KELLOGG: The land is administered 8 by the Park Service. And that's absolutely 9 clear in the Trails Act when it says such things 10 as the Park Service gets to select and choose 11 the route, they decide the width of the trail, 12 they establish the acreage for the trail, which 13 they've done here, which is 250,000 acres along 14 the entire length of the trail. 15 they say is a unit of the park system. All of which 16 JUSTICE ALITO: Your -- 17 JUSTICE KAGAN: Once the trail is the 18 trail, who regulates its use and who takes care 19 of it? 20 MR. KELLOGG: Well, authority can be 21 divided. Overall administration authority is by 22 the Park Service, but specific management 23 responsibility can be delegated to particular 24 other federal agencies or even to volunteer 25 groups or state groups. Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 40 1 JUSTICE KAGAN: 2 -- what actually is the case here? 3 there were a regulation that said there shall be 4 no snowmobiling on the trail. 5 regulation come from? 6 MR. KELLOGG: And -- and -- and what Suppose Where would that It would be in 36 CFR, 7 which is the Park Service regulations. 8 specifically says it's up to the Park Service to 9 establish regulations governing units of -- 10 1246(i) governing the trail. 11 Just as the Park System Organic Act 12 says it's up to the Park Service to decide what 13 regulations -- 14 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: 15 MR. KELLOGG: 16 17 Mr. Kellogg -- -- govern the park system. JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: -- let's go back 18 to -- let's go back to what the other side 19 argued was the nightmare of this case. 20 sure you have quite answered Justice Alito and 21 getting to what you're asking -- answering to 22 Justice Kagan. 23 I'm not It runs through cities, the trail. 24 runs through downtown Selma. I think we were 25 told in downtown somewhere else. Can the -- Heritage Reporting Corporation It Official - Subject to Final Review 41 1 does the Park Service, can it regulate the use 2 of that area? 3 everything that happens in downtown Selma? Can it put, at -- at a halt, 4 MR. KELLOGG: Certainly not. 5 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: 6 MR. KELLOGG: So -- But to the extent to 7 which you can regulate, that's a question the 8 Court left open in the Sturgeon case for 9 in-holdings, how much -- if it's part of the 10 Park Service, part of the Forest Service, how 11 much can you regulate private in-holdings? 12 And I think there's severe limitations 13 on that, which is why the Park Service has said 14 we're not regulating that. 15 JUSTICE GORSUCH: 16 So is downtown Selma an in-holding in the Park Service? 17 MR. KELLOGG: I'm sorry? 18 JUSTICE GORSUCH: Is downtown Selma an 19 in-holding on the Park Service in your theory of 20 the case? 21 MR. KELLOGG: If there's a -- for 22 example, if there is a national historic trail 23 through that area -- 24 25 JUSTICE GORSUCH: There is. that to be true. Heritage Reporting Corporation We know Official - Subject to Final Review 42 1 MR. KELLOGG: Yes, there is. Congress 2 in the National Historic Trails Act specifically 3 said that there is no regulatory power on -- on 4 national historic trails for private, state, and 5 local lands. 6 7 They said exactly the opposite in the Trails Act when they said -- - 8 9 JUSTICE GORSUCH: Wouldn't -- go ahead, please. 10 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: 11 MR. KELLOGG: Keep going, sorry. I was going to say they 12 said exactly the opposite in the Trails Act 13 where they said that the Secretary administers 14 the entire trail. 15 16 JUSTICE BREYER: What about the -- what about that? 17 JUSTICE GORSUCH: 18 JUSTICE BREYER: Please. Just take the same 19 question and apply it to one of these kinds of 20 trails. 21 JUSTICE GORSUCH: 22 JUSTICE BREYER: 23 not Selma. 24 exactly the same question. 25 JUSTICE GORSUCH: Yeah. I mean, maybe it's Maybe it's Hanover, New Hampshire, Or Kansas City. Heritage Reporting Corporation You Official - Subject to Final Review 43 1 choose. 2 JUSTICE BREYER: Kansas City. Is 3 there like a barrier across -- I mean, that's 4 what's a little bit tough on your side. 5 statutes, you know, it's like ping pong, you 6 know, they have this, you have that. 7 The But the thing that I -- is worrying me 8 the most is just what was asked. 9 have to do is take the same question, okay, you 10 got it? 11 MR. KELLOGG: 12 JUSTICE BREYER: 13 14 So all you Yep. Okay. What's the answer? MR. KELLOGG: Okay. So the answer is 15 they can't go into downtown Hanover and say 16 we're the Federal Government and we're going to 17 control how you use the sidewalks, et cetera. 18 But they are going to -- 19 JUSTICE BREYER: Not the sidewalks. 20 What happened is this is a national -- a state 21 park, and under the ground are some Native 22 American remains, you know, and they would like 23 to have access to those. 24 affect the trail and so forth, and they don't 25 want to ask anybody. It isn't going to They just want to do it. Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 44 1 All right? 2 So -- so what now? 3 MR. KELLOGG: 4 Unless there is another federal law -- 5 JUSTICE BREYER: 6 MR. KELLOGG: No. -- that applies to 7 digging up Indian remains, then they could do 8 it, because -- 9 JUSTICE BREYER: 10 MR. KELLOGG: Why? They could do it because 11 the Park Service has control over the trail on 12 federal lands, but its regulations do not extend 13 to the trail where it goes over state -- 14 JUSTICE BREYER: As far as the statute 15 is concerned, can they do it? 16 Service that doesn't like X. 17 do it. 18 underground. Can they do it? We get a Park They don't want to I mean, and it's In other words -- 19 MR. KELLOGG: If they are taking -- 20 JUSTICE BREYER: No, no. What it is, 21 it's more like an easement. If you see it more 22 like an easement, more like an easement, or 23 covering the surface, then, of course, if it 24 goes across private land or it goes across a 25 state park or goes across a city, then the state Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 45 1 or the city or the -- whatever it is, has a 2 right to use their land as they wish. 3 If it's part going down into the earth 4 a thousand feet or to the center of the earth, I 5 don't know where these things go, but if that's 6 the case, maybe they can do it, but only if the 7 Park Service agrees. 8 9 See, is that -- that's -- JUSTICE GORSUCH: that's right. Well, I -- I think I mean, I think -- the easement 10 is very easy to understand how this would work, 11 but if it's -- property actually belongs to the 12 Park Service, is in the Park Service system, 13 then I think Justice Breyer has an interesting 14 point. 15 And, relatedly, I'm -- I'm having -- 16 I'm struggling with understanding how -- what 17 the answer to this question is: 18 it -- when it set out who's going to administer 19 these trails, said that the Park Service gets to 20 administer the ones in the east, where the 21 Forest Service owns the land, and the Forest 22 Service gets to administer the ones in the west, 23 where the Park Service owns the land. 24 kind of a -- you can understand it if it's 25 easements, again, you can understand that. Congress, when Heritage Reporting Corporation It was Official - Subject to Final Review 46 1 Everybody's getting a little bit of something in 2 each other's territory. 3 But if the land goes with the -- the 4 assignment of the management authority for the 5 trail, then you have the circumstance that a lot 6 of western national parks, Sequoia, Yosemite, 7 others, there are now ribbons throughout those 8 national parks that belong to the Forest Service 9 and that would be at least open to pipeline 10 development. 11 So while you might thwart a pipeline 12 here, you -- it's not a costless -- it's not a 13 zero-sum gain. 14 elsewhere. 15 seeking a pipeline there, but that's not a very 16 good answer, is it? 17 You're going to invite pipelines Now, you might tell me nobody is So on what account, I guess I'm 18 asking, would a rational Congress have opened up 19 western national parks to development like this? 20 MR. KELLOGG: Well, first of all, I 21 don't think that has happened, Your Honor, 22 because -- 23 24 25 JUSTICE GORSUCH: I -- I -- I knew you were going to say that. (Laughter.) Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 47 1 MR. KELLOGG: If -- take the Pacific 2 Crest Trail. It runs through certain portions 3 that are, as you point out, national parks. 4 They could not build a pipeline across those 5 because you can't go under the National Park 6 Service land, even if the trail is administered 7 by the Forest Service. 8 Forest Service lands, where it runs across 9 state, local, or private lands, then the -- the Where it runs across 10 Mineral Leasing Act would allow a pipeline to 11 run. 12 Now, they raise the hypothetical, 13 well, couldn't the -- the Forest Service dig up 14 the entire trail and snake a pipeline through 15 there? 16 matter and of course as a practical matter, they 17 couldn't. 18 because they can only allow uses that are 19 consistent with the purposes of the trail. 20 think that's a -- that's a false hypothetical. 21 I would suggest, no, both as a legal But as a legal matter, they couldn't So I There's no question that back in 1970, 22 Congress -- it was 1968, Congress was saying, 23 okay, we've got -- we want to establish all 24 these national trails. We're going to give some 25 to the Forest Service. We're going to give some Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 48 1 to the Park Service. 2 the administrator of those trails, the overall 3 administrators. 4 And they're going to be Every statute that assigns 5 jurisdiction over land to a federal agency uses 6 the word "administration." 7 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: What about the -- 8 excuse me. 9 -- you have textual arguments, the other side 10 has textual arguments, but your position has 11 significant consequences to it, enormous 12 consequences. 13 What about the argument that there's And Congress did not use language in 14 this Act like it did in the Rivers Act passed on 15 the same day. 16 expect to see clear language like that to 17 generate the significant consequences that your 18 position has. 19 And the argument goes, you would MR. KELLOGG: You know, I would 20 suggest that Congress used exactly language like 21 that in the Rivers Act. 22 be a little more specific because it put the -- 23 the -- wild and scenic rivers along with their 24 adjacent lands directly into the Park Service. 25 And so it had to specify that it was talking The Rivers Act had to Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 49 1 about land as well as the water. 2 But it used the same term, 3 "administered by," that you find in the Trails 4 Act, that you find in the Weeks Act, that you 5 find in the Blue Ridge Parkway Act. 6 instance where Congress assigns jurisdiction 7 over land, it uses that term. 8 9 In every And to be clear, the Forest Service doesn't own the land. The Park Service doesn't 10 own the land. 11 federal government. 12 agencies designated by Congress, which is 13 exactly what they did in the 1968 Act. 14 All the land belongs to the It's administered by JUSTICE ALITO: And -- Is there any reason 15 why the Secretary of the Interior had to 16 delegate this to the Park Service? 17 MR. KELLOGG: It did not have to. It 18 was assumed by Congress that it would do so, 19 because throughout the Trails Act, it talks 20 about when it's the Secretary of Interior, you 21 apply the rules applicable to the -- 22 JUSTICE ALITO: So if Congress really 23 wanted to bring about the result that you think 24 the statutes commands, why wouldn't it leave 25 that option? Why wouldn't it require that it be Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 50 1 administered by the Park Service, rather than by 2 the Secretary of the Interior? 3 MR. KELLOGG: So the initial Trails 4 Act decided the question about pipeline 5 rights-of-ways, et cetera. 6 steps. 7 Act, in which Congress said we want all these 8 disparate areas that the Park Service 9 administered and we want to treat them on a par. That took two more It took the 1970 General Authorities 10 JUSTICE GORSUCH: Mr. Kellogg, I think 11 the question that Justice Alito is getting at 12 troubles me too, and I'm not sure you quite got 13 there. 14 Could the Secretary of the Interior 15 reassign these lands from the Park Service to 16 the Fish and Wildlife Service and then allow -- 17 18 MR. KELLOGG: think they -- 19 20 At this point, I don't JUSTICE GORSUCH: -- and then allow pipelines? 21 MR. KELLOGG: At this point, I don't 22 think so. Once it's in the parks system, it 23 works as -- seems to work as a one-way route. 24 JUSTICE GORSUCH: 25 MR. KELLOGG: Okay, but it's -- There's no authority -- Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 51 1 JUSTICE GORSUCH: 2 MR. KELLOGG: 3 JUSTICE GORSUCH: Could it -- could -- -- to decommission. But the Secretary of 4 the Interior could have done so? 5 MR. KELLOGG: Could have done so, 6 that's correct. And, in fact, some trails have 7 been and some scenic rivers have been delegated 8 to the Fish and Wildlife -- 9 JUSTICE GORSUCH: 10 strike against your interpretation? 11 Congress had wanted to ensure that these trails 12 were left undisturbed, it could have simply made 13 that assignment directly. 14 MR. KELLOGG: And why isn't that a Because if Because the critical 15 act, from our purposes, is the 1970 Act. 16 much the 1968 Trails Act, but the 1970 General 17 Authorities Act. 18 Not so If you read the government's reply 19 brief at 16-17, they make some concessions that 20 I think essentially concede away the case. 21 said, back in 1970, the Park Service listed as 22 units the Blue Ridge Parkway, the Appalachian 23 Trail, and the Wild and Scenic Rivers, but it 24 kept those separate and apart in its listing, 25 said these were miscellaneous areas, these are Heritage Reporting Corporation They Official - Subject to Final Review 52 1 recreation areas; these aren't national parks. 2 And then Congress came along in the 3 General Authorities Act and said: 4 everything you administer is a unit of the Park 5 Service. 6 when the Forest Service -- when the Park Service 7 published its new list, it listed the Wild and 8 Scenic Rivers, the Blue Ridge Parkway, and the 9 Appalachian Trail all as units of the park 10 No, no, no, So as a consequence, two years later, system on a par -- 11 JUSTICE BREYER: 12 MR. KELLOGG: 13 JUSTICE BREYER: So -- -- with national parks. So do you -- is this 14 right that you think that -- think of Yosemite, 15 all right? 16 Government, and I think it belongs to the 17 Federal Government down to the center of the 18 earth. 19 when you have property. 20 center of the earth. 21 22 I think that belongs to the Federal I mean, I don't know how far you go down Maybe you go to the Is your position that that's true of all the trails too? 23 MR. KELLOGG: 24 JUSTICE BREYER: 25 It's certainly -And if -- that's -- that's really what I'm -- yeah, okay. Heritage Reporting Corporation Go ahead, Official - Subject to Final Review 53 1 2 answer. MR. KELLOGG: Yes, it's -- it's my 3 position, it's our position, that if -- whatever 4 agency administers the trail also can award, 5 decide right-of-ways across that trail, but only 6 consistent with their own rules and regulations. 7 8 9 JUSTICE ALITO: Well, then why does the statute -CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: So that it 10 really does -- it really does erect a 11 impermeable barrier to any pipeline from the 12 area where the natural gas, those resources are 13 located and to the area east of it where there's 14 more of a need for them? 15 MR. KELLOGG: Absolutely incorrect, 16 Your Honor, I'm sorry, but the -- there's 55 17 pipelines currently running under the 18 Appalachian Trail; 19 of those are on federal 19 land pursuant to permanent easements granted 20 before the Trails Act. The rest of them are on 21 state and local lands. Two -- 22 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: I guess maybe 23 -- maybe I'm not entirely incorrect, but that 24 seems to suggest if it is not the Appalachian 25 Trail land that runs through private property or Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 54 1 were preexisting, that to the extent it is, I'll 2 call, regular Appalachian Trail land, it does 3 operate as a barrier? 4 MR. KELLOGG: 5 JUSTICE BREYER: 6 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: 7 8 9 Only on federal land. Why? Well, that's what we're talking about. MR. KELLOGG: Because the Mineral Leasing Act only applies to federal land, and it 10 only exempts land in the National Park Service 11 from the definition of federal land. 12 13 14 So state, local, and private lands are unaffected. The -- JUSTICE GORSUCH: State, local, 15 private lands are unaffected. 16 lands, through which the trails run, are 17 unaffected. 18 there happens to be a trail? 19 Forest Service The only thing affected is where MR. KELLOGG: Is the trail, plus its 20 protective corridor, which is about a thousand 21 feet wide, and which the Park Service, despite 22 their efforts in the reply brief to walk that 23 back, if you look at page 97 of the Joint 24 Appendix, they run through the numbers. 25 You know, it's 2,190 miles long. Heritage Reporting Corporation It's Official - Subject to Final Review 55 1 a thousand feet wide. 2 250,000 acres in the National Park system. 3 Those acres are included in their calculation of 4 the 89 million acres that are part of the -- 5 6 JUSTICE BREYER: 9 You see, go back for just a second. 7 8 And they say that's JUSTICE KAGAN: Mr. Kellogg do you think -JUSTICE BREYER: Because once you said 10 yes to the center of the earth. 11 I'm -- I'm quite pleased, I guess as a person, 12 not a judge, that Yosemite does go down as far 13 as, but it worries me, because what you answered 14 the Chief Justice and the others is, well, 15 Congress has an Act that takes care of that. 16 Okay. Now, It exempts the private people. But I 17 think we're here concerned not with Congress's 18 statutes so much -- of course we are -- but you 19 see, if you're saying it goes down to the center 20 of the earth, then there are all kinds of things 21 some other Congress might do. 22 to the federal government down to the center of 23 the earth. 24 25 This land belongs And actually what's worrying me is something with that consequence, perhaps Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 56 1 Congress would have done more to make clear. 2 But am I right on my consequence that -- are you 3 following that? 4 MR. KELLOGG: 5 JUSTICE BREYER: 6 And -- and -- and am I right? 7 8 I do, Your Honor. MR. KELLOGG: That the subsurface lands also belong to the United States? 9 JUSTICE BREYER: Yes. So Congress 10 could do what it wants, in cities, in -- in 11 cities, in private property, et cetera. 12 MR. KELLOGG: 13 JUSTICE BREYER: 14 Because of the statute or because of something else? 15 16 No, you are not right -- MR. KELLOGG: Because the Mineral Leasing Act applies only to federal lands. 17 JUSTICE BREYER: 18 MR. KELLOGG: Well -- And the Park Service 19 does not purport to regulate private, state, and 20 local in-holdings. 21 happen. 22 So that's not going to JUSTICE KAGAN: Mr. Kellogg, do you 23 think it's possible that these trails are 24 jointly administered, that there is some kind of 25 joint jurisdiction over them? And if that's Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 57 1 what is going on here, what would be the effect 2 of that on this question? 3 MR. KELLOGG: Well, first of all, if 4 that were what's going on, the Court would have 5 to reverse, because under 185(c)(2) of the 6 Mineral Leasing Act, it says that if the -- if 7 the surface lands are administered by either the 8 Secretary of the Interior or by the Secretary 9 and more -- and one or more other agencies, then 10 only the Secretary of the Interior can grant -- 11 JUSTICE KAGAN: I guess what I was 12 suggesting is something along the following 13 lines: 14 Act comes along and it does not completely 15 repeal the Weeks Act. 16 Weeks Act jurisdiction in the Secretary 17 delegated to the Park Service that goes along 18 with the Weeks Act, and then assumes that these 19 two agencies will figure out a sensible 20 distribution of regulatory and other authority. 21 You have the Weeks Act. And the Trails It just layers onto the And if that's the case, and that's 22 what happened, has happened, do you -- does -- 23 does -- is it necessarily true that the 24 Secretary has authority over the right-of-way 25 that's at issue here? Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 58 1 MR. KELLOGG: Well, 1248(a) says 2 explicitly that it's used -- the Secretary of 3 the Interior or the Secretary of Agriculture, as 4 the case may be, and as the case may be, we know 5 refers to the Secretary who administers the 6 land. 7 The government in its reply brief 8 recognizes that's a fatal point for them, and so 9 they try to say, no, it's not really mean that, 10 but two provisions before in 1246(i) Congress 11 uses the phrase "as the case may be" in a 12 context that unmistakably refers to the 13 Secretary administering the trail. 14 So that means the Secretary of the 15 Interior, and only the Secretary of the Interior 16 can grant the rights-of-way in question here. 17 So -- 18 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Mr. Kellogg, I'm 19 sorry, did you misspeak? 20 Kagan by saying if we believed there was dual 21 administrative powers, that we had to reverse, 22 but I thought you won below? 23 24 25 MR. KELLOGG: You answered Justice I'm sorry, then you would have to -JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Affirm? Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 59 1 MR. KELLOGG: I'm sorry, then the 2 Fourth Circuit -- my apologies -- the Fourth 3 Circuit was correct that the Secretary -- that 4 the head of the Forest Service did not have 5 authority to grant this pipeline right-of-way. 6 So you would have to affirm on that basis. 7 apologies for -- 8 9 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: My No, you were confusing me, so I -- I don't know that you have 10 fully satisfied the parade of horribles that 11 have been put forth. 12 In my own judgment, the most serious 13 one is the view that if everything the Park 14 Department administers, the entire trail, that 15 that means that it can stop pipelines or other 16 things across the country, the -- the 200,000 or 17 whatever miles that this is. 18 And I -- I don't know that you have 19 actually articulated concisely a -- a response 20 to why that parade of horribles is not likely. 21 22 23 24 25 MR. KELLOGG: I can -- I can give you -JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: I don't think it's enough to say that they haven't done it. MR. KELLOGG: I can give you a very Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 60 1 concrete example. In the past 50 years, since 2 the Trails Act was passed, there has not been a 3 single new pipeline right-of-way through federal 4 lands under the Appalachian Trail. 5 There have been a number on state, 6 local, and private lands, and the same would 7 apply to other trails. 8 for example, that the Blue Ridge Parkway is land 9 in the park system. 10 Now, they acknowledge, They acknowledge that wild and scenic rivers are land in the park system. 11 So the same principle that they would 12 block pipelines would apply to them as well. 13 And there is no reason why a parkway constitutes 14 land but a trail does not or why a wild and 15 scenic river would constitute lands and a trail 16 not. 17 Congress even provided ways in which 18 you could move the trail under certain 19 provisions by acquiring new land on which to run 20 the trail. 21 Ridge Parkway. 22 It did the same thing with the Blue JUSTICE ALITO: Why would congress 23 allow pipeline under the Blue Ridge Parkway but 24 not under the trail when those two run parallel 25 to each other and are very close in some spots? Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 61 1 MR. KELLOGG: That's actually a highly 2 disputed point, whether they have allowed a 3 pipeline under the Appalachian Trail -- under 4 the Blue Ridge Parkway. 5 provision at issue there, is entitled Licensor 6 Permits to Owners of Adjacent Lands. 7 460(a)(3), the So that one question is, well, is a 8 right-of-way to a pipeline to an owner of an 9 adjacent land, but otherwise it says that it has 10 to be non-consistent with use of such lands for 11 pipeline purposes. 12 So -- 13 JUSTICE ALITO: 14 For -- for pipeline purposes? 15 MR. KELLOGG: For parkway purposes. 16 JUSTICE ALITO: 17 MR. KELLOGG: Parkway purposes. And what you look for in 18 the parkway is the Park Service regulations 19 governing the parkway. 20 the national -- for the Appalachian Trail is the 21 Park Service regulations governing the trail, 22 which specifically cover the kinds of 23 rights-of-ways and pipelines, et cetera, that 24 can pass over or under the trail. 25 JUSTICE ALITO: What you look for for If -- if the statutes Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 62 1 allow it to go under the parkway, is there any 2 reason why Congress would say: 3 this far, but you can't go another thousand feet 4 in some spots and go under the trail? 5 MR. KELLOGG: Well, you can go Because they wanted to 6 keep the Appalachian Trail, insofar as it is on 7 federal land, where the most beautiful parts of 8 the Appalachian Trail are to be found, through 9 the national forest, through the -- through the 10 11 park system, Congress drew a bright line. JUSTICE ALITO: Well, I mean, that 12 gets to the fundamental question I have about 13 your argument. 14 There may be all sorts of very good 15 environmental reasons why this pipeline 16 shouldn't be built. 17 involved in the other issues in the case, but do 18 you have more than a "gotcha" argument? 19 -- I mean, and sometimes they work, that if you 20 fit these statutes together, this is what they 21 say, and you can't get out of it, but do you 22 really have an argument that this is what 23 Congress intended when it adopted the statutes 24 on which you rely? 25 And those, I take it, are MR. KELLOGG: I think we do. Heritage Reporting Corporation Do you We know, Official - Subject to Final Review 63 1 for example, that they had the General 2 Authorities Act before them when they passed the 3 Mineral Leasing Act and created an exception for 4 lands in the park system from -- from the 5 pipeline authority that they were granting in 6 that Act. 7 8 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Thank you, counsel. 9 Mr. Yang, two minutes remaining. 10 REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF ANTHONY A. YANG 11 ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER IN 18-1584 12 13 MR. YANG: Mr. Chief Justice, thank you. 14 The statutory regulation of 15 in-holdings was addressed in Sturgeon, 16 Section 10751. 17 that broad authority does not apply. 18 strikes close to home. 19 Scenic Trail runs straight through Alexandria. Counsel has not suggested that This The Potomac Heritage 20 Counsel suggests that such regulation 21 of lands in the National Park system is limited 22 to purposes of the trail. 23 comfortable as a municipal officer given that's 24 the case. 25 I would not feel And, moreover, that threatens the Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 64 1 cooperative management system whereby 2 municipalities have allowed the trail for 50 3 years, and then going fact -- going back to the 4 1920s and '30s to cross their lands without 5 necessarily having easements for the trail. 6 Two, land as a property right going 7 down to the earth, that is a very odd fit for 8 this trail that runs across the surface and it 9 can change locations. 10 Three, Congress in 11 Section 1246(a)(1)(A) specifically says the 12 Interior has overall administration of the 13 trail, but then says there's no transfer of 14 management responsibilities for 15 federally-administered lands. 16 antithesis of the clarity that Congress acts 17 with when it wants to transfer its exertion of 18 land -- 19 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: That's the Excuse me, Mr. 20 Yang, that's the problem, which is read that 21 definition. 22 two different meanings. 23 transfer management when -- 24 25 Management and administration have MR. YANG: It says we don't I get the point. problem is -- Heritage Reporting Corporation But the Official - Subject to Final Review 65 1 2 3 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: That's the problem. MR. YANG: -- Petitioner -- the first 4 sentence says: 5 administration and management of the trail." 6 Petitioner is right that the trail is land, that 7 includes management of the land. 8 9 "Overall administration is If But that makes a hash of the second sentence, which says, "no authority over the 10 land management is transferred." So Petitioner 11 also, or Respondent has a problem with Sections 12 1246(e) and (h)(1), both of which apply only 13 outside the boundaries of federally-administered 14 land, (h)(1) where the trail is outside, and (e) 15 where the right-of-way is outside. 16 There is no such thing under 17 Respondent's theory because the right-of-way and 18 the trail is federally-administered land. 19 overall administration -- this is the position 20 of the agencies for 50 years -- that overall 21 administration is spelled out in the Act. 22 a continuous route. 23 The It's You select the right-of-way and then 24 you relocate it. 25 uniform marker. That's in A(2) and (b). A You are a backstop for state Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 66 1 and local governments acquiring the required 2 right-of-way. 3 4 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Thank you, counsel. 5 MR. YANG: Thank you, Mr. Chief -- 6 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: The case is 7 submitted. 8 like to invite Mr. Clement to return to the 9 lectern. 10 But before counsel leave, I would Mr. Clement, our records indicate that 11 this was your 100th oral argument before the 12 Court. 13 one of the other members of the exclusive club, 14 Mr. Kneedler, at counsel table. 15 That is a rare milestone. I recognize Throughout your career, Mr. Clement, 16 you have consistently advocated positions on 17 behalf of the United States and private clients 18 in an exemplary manner. 19 On behalf of the Court, I extend to 20 you our appreciation for your advocacy before 21 the Court and dedicated service as an officer of 22 this Court. 23 We look forward to hearing from you 24 many more times, beginning, I gather, next week 25 as an amicus -- Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review 67 1 (Laughter.) 2 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: 3 by this Court. 4 counsel. 5 6 -- appointed Thank you very much. Thank you, The case is submitted. (Whereupon, at 11:09 a.m., the case was submitted.) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Heritage Reporting Corporation 68 Official - Subject to Final Review A(2 [1] 65:24 1 a.m [3] 1:24 4:2 67:5 10:07 [2] 1:24 4:2 able [1] 10:8 100th [1] 66:11 above-entitled [1] 1:22 10751 [1] 63:16 absolutely [3] 35:23 39:8 53:15 11:09 [1] 67:5 abstract [1] 37:7 1246 [1] 13:23 accept [1] 15:24 1246(a)(1)(A [1] 64:11 access [1] 43:23 1246(c [1] 13:23 account [1] 46:17 1246(e [1] 65:12 acknowledge [2] 60:7,9 1246(f [1] 13:25 acquire [1] 37:14 1246(h)(1 [4] 5:18 13:25 14:23 21: acquiring [2] 60:19 66:1 25 acreage [3] 18:19 29:14 39:12 1246(I [3] 14:1 40:7 58:10 acres [5] 18:24 39:13 55:2,3,4 1248(a [3] 25:4 34:15 58:1 across [14] 19:10 23:4 34:18 37:2 1280 [1] 29:15 43:3 44:24,24,25 47:4,7,8 53:5 59: 14a [1] 5:17 16 64:8 16-17 [1] 51:19 Act [74] 4:14,18 5:10 6:24 7:6,10 17 [2] 3:9 9:20 10:15 12:16,23 15:18 16:1,3 17: 18-1584 [6] 2:4 3:5,16 4:4,10 63: 21 18:2,12,13,16,21 24:21,23 27: 11 18-1587 [3] 2:6 3:9 17:12 185(c)(2 [1] 57:5 19 [1] 53:18 1920s [1] 64:4 1968 [4] 35:5 47:22 49:13 51:16 1970 [6] 15:9 47:21 50:6 51:15,16, 21 2 2,190 [1] 54:25 200,000 [1] 59:16 2020 [1] 1:20 24 [1] 1:20 250,000 [2] 39:13 55:2 3 30s 34 [1] 3:12 36 [3] 14:17 38:22 40:6 [1] 64:4 4 4 [1] 3:5 40 [1] 30:3 460(a)(3 [1] 61:4 5 50 [4] 32:24 60:1 64:2 65:20 55 [1] 53:16 6 6.2 [1] 38:22 600 [7] 6:16 7:25 20:10 21:11,15 22:12 34:13 63 [1] 3:16 7 7.100 [1] 14:17 8 800 [1] 20:11 89 [1] 55:4 9 97 [1] 54:23 A 25 29:12,15,16,17,21,23 30:19 32: 3 34:1,21 35:5,9,22 36:10 37:11 38:11 39:9 40:11 42:2,7,12 47:10 48:14,14,21,21 49:4,4,5,13,19 50: 4,7 51:15,15,16,17 52:3 53:20 54: 9 55:15 56:16 57:6,13,14,15,16,18 60:2 63:2,3,6 65:21 action [1] 20:25 acts [2] 16:6 64:16 actually [9] 26:13 28:16 29:3,13 40:2 45:11 55:24 59:19 61:1 address [2] 10:9 16:7 addressed [1] 63:15 addresses [1] 30:24 adjacent [3] 48:24 61:6,9 administer [9] 8:18,23 15:20,25 35:2 45:18,20,22 52:4 administered [31] 4:16 5:13,15, 15 6:1 8:13 10:12 16:16 27:11 29: 25 31:7 32:12,13,13,14,18 33:15, 17 35:7,10,13,17 39:5,7 47:6 49:3, 11 50:1,9 56:24 57:7 administering [4] 4:21,22 14:14 58:13 administers [11] 6:7 22:5 26:22, 25 27:3 31:17 34:25 42:13 53:4 58:5 59:14 administrated [2] 5:22,25 administration [14] 4:19 8:21 12: 18 14:24 15:15 17:1 39:21 48:6 64:12,21 65:4,5,19,21 administrative [6] 12:22 17:23 21: 21,22 33:1 58:21 administrator [1] 48:2 administrators [1] 48:3 adopted [1] 62:23 advocacy [1] 66:20 advocated [1] 66:16 affect [2] 26:12 43:24 affected [1] 54:17 Affirm [2] 58:25 59:6 agencies [16] 4:22,23 5:2 14:14 15:7,14,20,25 16:9 18:11 28:19 39:24 49:12 57:9,19 65:20 agency [11] 4:21 16:25 17:3,4 28: 6,6,22,22 32:9 48:5 53:4 agree [1] 25:3 Agreement [2] 15:7,8 agrees [1] 45:7 Agriculture [1] 58:3 ahead [2] 42:9 52:25 AL [3] 1:4,8,15 Alexandria [1] 63:19 ALITO [27] 21:2,5,18 22:8,10 32: 10 33:4,7,12,16,20 37:22 38:7,11, 24 39:3,16 40:20 49:14,22 50:11 53:7 60:22 61:13,16,25 62:11 Alito's [1] 27:17 allow [7] 16:12 47:10,18 50:16,19 60:23 62:1 allowed [3] 23:2 61:2 64:2 almost [1] 25:14 already [1] 7:22 alternative [1] 28:14 although [1] 32:20 American [1] 43:22 amicus [2] 15:18 66:25 amounts [1] 6:5 anomalies [1] 32:5 another [4] 16:18 32:9 44:3 62:3 answer [7] 8:25 16:5 43:13,14 45: 17 46:16 53:1 answered [3] 40:20 55:13 58:19 answering [2] 15:13 40:21 answers [2] 23:21 38:8 ANTHONY [5] 2:2 3:3,14 4:9 63: 10 antithesis [1] 64:16 anybody [1] 43:25 apart [1] 51:24 apologies [2] 59:2,7 Appalachian [21] 4:15 8:19 9:4 13:8,12 20:8 26:19,23 34:19 35:6 36:16 51:22 52:9 53:18,24 54:2 60:4 61:3,20 62:6,8 appeal [1] 25:22 APPEARANCES [1] 2:1 Appendix [1] 54:24 applicability [1] 38:20 applicable [1] 49:21 applies [4] 14:17 44:6 54:9 56:16 apply [7] 30:15 42:19 49:21 60:7, 12 63:17 65:12 appointed [1] 67:2 appreciation [1] 66:20 approach [3] 27:22,24 30:16 area [13] 5:15 6:1 12:18 19:23 20: 15,18 33:15 35:14,18 41:2,23 53: 12,13 areas [7] 5:22,25 9:14 35:10 50:8 51:25 52:1 aren't [3] 11:8 24:20 52:1 argue [1] 5:12 argued [1] 40:19 argument [18] 1:23 3:2,6,10,13 4: 4,9 17:11 26:18 27:23 34:7 48:8, 15 62:13,18,22 63:10 66:11 arguments [2] 48:9,10 around [4] 10:17 27:6,20 30:12 articulated [2] 29:3 59:19 asks [1] 28:22 assent [1] 32:9 assignment [2] 46:4 51:13 assigns [2] 48:4 49:6 Assistant [1] 2:2 ASSOCIATION [3] 1:8,15 4:6 assume [1] 33:9 assumed [1] 49:18 assumes [1] 57:18 assuming [1] 15:24 ATLANTIC [2] 1:11 24:10 attention [1] 34:14 Authorities [5] 35:9 50:6 51:17 52:3 63:2 authority [17] 8:22 13:21 14:12 17: 23 21:21,22 28:1 39:20,21 46:4 50:25 57:20,24 59:5 63:5,17 65:9 authorized [1] 28:7 award [1] 53:4 away [2] 38:12 51:20 B back [12] 7:4,5 15:9 27:17 30:6 40: 17,18 47:21 51:21 54:23 55:5 64: 3 backpack [1] 11:7 backpacking [1] 11:7 backstop [1] 65:25 backyard [1] 37:2 barrier [4] 30:14 43:3 53:11 54:3 barriers [1] 19:2 basically [2] 13:17 14:4 basis [2] 33:2 59:6 beautiful [1] 62:7 became [1] 18:21 beginning [1] 66:24 behalf [13] 2:4,6,8 3:4,8,12,15 4: 10 17:12 34:8 63:11 66:17,19 believe [2] 12:15 13:19 believed [1] 58:20 belong [2] 46:8 56:8 belongs [6] 36:6 45:11 49:10 52: 15,16 55:21 below [11] 19:14,18 20:10,11,24 21:11,16 22:12 24:1,24 58:22 between [8] 4:20 17:22 18:10 21: 13,21 22:11,13 26:17 bike [1] 11:6 biking [1] 11:8 bit [4] 20:12 21:24 43:4 46:1 blaze [1] 30:23 block [1] 60:12 Blue [8] 20:9 49:5 51:22 52:8 60:8, 20,23 61:4 both [7] 12:5 15:25 20:10,21,22 47: 15 65:12 boundaries [2] 5:22 65:13 BREYER [34] 19:3,9,17,22 20:2,5, 14,17 21:6 23:12,15 24:9,17 42: 15,18,22 43:2,12,19 44:5,9,14,20 45:13 52:11,13,24 54:5 55:5,9 56: 5,9,13,17 Heritage Reporting Corporation Sheet 1 10:07 - BREYER 69 Official - Subject to Final Review bridge [1] 6:15 CLEMENT [46] 2:5 3:7 10:4,7,8,10 costless [1] 46:12 17:10,11,13 19:8,16,21,25 20:3,6, coterminous [1] 17:1 bridges [3] 6:14 11:11 27:1 brief [13] 8:9 9:20,25 10:2 12:6 15: 16,20 21:3,17 22:9,14 23:13 24:9, couldn't [4] 19:6 47:13,17,17 18 25:3 26:10 30:6 37:6 51:19 54: 14,16,18 25:1,9,16,23 26:3,6 27: counsel [7] 63:8,16,20 66:4,7,14 16 28:12 31:10,13 32:16 33:6,11, 14,18,21 34:5 66:8,10,15 briefed [4] 25:18,19 26:2,15 briefly [1] 16:13 clients [2] 21:18 66:17 briefs [5] 12:5,7 19:6 20:3 25:24 close [2] 60:25 63:18 bright [1] 62:10 club [1] 66:13 bring [1] 49:23 COAST [3] 1:11 11:18 24:10 broad [1] 63:17 coexistent [1] 16:10 broader [1] 10:21 College [1] 6:13 broadly [1] 35:20 come [3] 5:8 8:1 40:5 build [2] 36:13 47:4 comes [2] 19:24 57:14 building [2] 33:22 35:15 comfortable [1] 63:23 built [1] 62:16 coming [1] 24:7 commands [1] 49:24 C completely [1] 57:14 calculation [1] 55:3 components [2] 29:8 34:19 call [4] 5:6 13:3 34:14 54:2 concede [1] 51:20 called [3] 29:9,11 30:9 concept [1] 36:23 calls [1] 30:17 concerned [2] 44:15 55:17 came [2] 1:22 52:2 concerns [1] 8:21 cannot [4] 6:2 7:24,25 23:24 concessions [1] 51:19 care [4] 5:3 20:22 39:18 55:15 concisely [1] 59:19 career [1] 66:15 conclude [1] 20:23 cars [1] 14:10 concrete [1] 60:1 Case [38] 4:4,7,13 6:17 7:3,15,18 8: concurrence [1] 14:13 16 9:1 14:21 21:8,19 22:1,11 24: condemnation [1] 37:14 11 25:19 26:8,9 28:13 30:10 34: confers [1] 8:22 12,17 35:19 40:2,19 41:8,20 45:6 confusing [1] 59:9 51:20 57:21 58:4,4,11 62:17 63: Congress [38] 8:20 11:13 12:21 24 66:6 67:4,5 14:10 16:6 18:14 29:5,9,18,23 35: cases [2] 24:4 25:14 2,20 42:1 45:17 46:18 47:22,22 center [6] 45:4 52:17,20 55:10,19, 48:13,20 49:6,12,18,22 50:7 51: 22 11 52:2 55:15,21 56:1,9 58:10 60: cert [2] 7:23 8:6 17,22 62:2,10,23 64:10,16 certain [6] 4:25 9:13 14:8 38:5 47: Congress's [1] 55:17 2 60:18 consequence [3] 52:5 55:25 56:2 certainly [4] 10:11 11:9 41:4 52: consequences [6] 7:5 17:19 18: 23 23 48:11,12,17 cetera [4] 43:17 50:5 56:11 61:23 conserve [1] 6:8 CFR [3] 14:17 38:22 40:6 conserved [1] 22:24 challenge [2] 23:19 24:6 considered [1] 7:22 change [5] 5:10 6:4 7:19 18:6 64: consistent [2] 47:19 53:6 9 consistently [1] 66:16 charge [1] 14:5 consists [2] 9:13 32:11 charged [1] 14:24 consolidated [1] 4:7 charges [1] 4:18 constitute [1] 60:15 CHIEF [21] 4:3,11 16:11 17:5,8,13 constitutes [1] 60:13 34:4,9 36:1,11,18 53:9,22 54:6 55: construe [1] 23:8 14 63:7,12 66:3,5,6 67:2 contemporaneous [1] 17:1 choose [2] 39:10 43:1 context [4] 12:17 17:19 18:8 58: Circuit [3] 7:1 59:2,3 12 circumstance [1] 46:5 Continental [1] 31:5 cite [1] 26:8 continuous [1] 65:22 cities [3] 40:23 56:10,11 control [3] 28:10 43:17 44:11 City [6] 27:12,14 42:25 43:2 44:25 convert [1] 17:15 45:1 converted [1] 19:2 clarity [2] 16:6 64:16 converts [1] 4:14 Clark [1] 11:14 cooperative [1] 64:1 clear [10] 12:21 17:23 18:3 35:3,23 coordinates [1] 4:23 38:17 39:9 48:16 49:8 56:1 Correct [4] 7:7 14:8 51:6 59:3 clearly [1] 16:6 corridor [1] 54:20 22 58:7 67:4 count [1] 34:14 country [1] 59:16 counts [2] 34:20 35:18 course [4] 18:22 44:23 47:16 55: 18 COURT [20] 1:1,23 4:12 7:19,20, 22 8:6 17:14 24:4 26:9 34:10 35: 18 38:16 41:8 57:4 66:12,19,21, 22 67:3 Court's [1] 34:14 cover [3] 14:21 36:10 61:22 covering [1] 44:23 COWPASTURE [3] 1:7,14 4:5 crazy [1] 29:23 created [1] 63:3 creates [1] 32:4 creating [1] 29:24 Crest [2] 31:4 47:2 critical [3] 21:20 28:25 51:14 cross [2] 7:25 64:4 crosses [2] 6:13 37:23 crossing [2] 7:13 20:25 currently [1] 53:17 cut [1] 27:19 cuts [1] 10:21 D D.C [4] 1:19 2:3,5,7 dams [1] 6:10 Dartmouth [1] 6:13 dates [1] 15:9 day [5] 7:21 12:24 18:13 29:12 48: 15 day-to-day [1] 33:2 deal [3] 12:17 22:7 28:18 dealt [2] 7:1 32:25 debate [1] 36:19 decide [6] 23:17 24:4 35:20 39:11 40:12 53:5 decided [1] 50:4 decision [1] 7:11 decommission [1] 51:2 dedicated [1] 66:21 defense [1] 26:7 definition [5] 9:12 37:12,19 54:11 64:21 definitions [2] 24:22 37:6 delegate [1] 49:16 delegated [4] 35:8 39:23 51:7 57: 17 delegation [1] 8:20 delusion [1] 30:1 Department [2] 2:3 59:14 Department's [1] 16:2 designated [1] 49:12 despite [1] 54:21 details [2] 30:20,25 develop [1] 5:20 development [6] 13:14 15:1 19:2 30:15 46:10,19 devoted [2] 7:2 15:19 difference [5] 21:21 22:11,13 26: 17 30:7 differences [1] 22:19 different [9] 12:1 13:10 17:4,6 25: 8 27:7 29:5 36:22 64:22 difficult [1] 10:16 dig [1] 47:13 digging [1] 44:7 dimensions [1] 19:5 directly [3] 34:11 48:24 51:13 director [1] 14:4 disagreeing [1] 25:17 disparate [1] 50:8 disputed [1] 61:2 distinct [2] 10:24 36:24 distinction [6] 10:17 11:2 17:21 18:9 21:13 22:17 distinguishes [1] 4:20 distribution [1] 57:20 disturb [1] 20:25 Divide [1] 31:5 divided [1] 39:21 documents [1] 31:23 doing [2] 29:19,22 done [8] 8:3,4 36:15 39:13 51:4,5 56:1 59:24 doubt [1] 18:19 doubts [4] 8:10 9:21,22 31:15 down [7] 45:3 52:17,18 55:12,19, 22 64:7 downtown [12] 27:2,7,8,12,12,13 40:24,25 41:3,15,18 43:15 dozen [2] 6:12 26:24 dramatically [3] 5:10 6:3,4 draw [3] 17:21 21:12 22:16 drew [1] 62:10 dual [2] 16:20 58:20 E each [2] 46:2 60:25 earth [9] 21:9 45:3,4 52:18,20 55: 10,20,23 64:7 easement [13] 19:19,24 25:6 36:2, 8 37:2 38:14,16 39:4 44:21,22,22 45:9 easements [4] 24:24 45:25 53:19 64:5 east [2] 45:20 53:13 Easy [3] 30:11 34:12 45:10 effect [2] 26:9 57:1 effects [1] 31:2 effort [1] 17:15 efforts [1] 54:22 either [2] 26:1 57:7 elephants-in-the-mouse-holetype [1] 30:16 else's [1] 37:8 elsewhere [1] 46:14 employees [2] 5:7 22:3 enacted [3] 11:13 12:23 14:16 encourage [1] 5:19 end [2] 7:21 9:22 Heritage Reporting Corporation Sheet 2 bridge - end 70 Official - Subject to Final Review ends [1] 27:12 English [1] 12:5 enormous [1] 48:11 enough [2] 30:11 59:24 ensure [1] 51:11 enter [3] 19:18,18,22 enterprise [1] 8:3 enters [2] 19:25 20:14 entire [8] 5:14 15:19 22:4 31:24 39: 14 42:14 47:14 59:14 entirely [1] 53:23 entitled [1] 61:5 environment [1] 6:9 environmental [3] 7:5,12 62:15 equivocation [1] 35:6 erect [1] 53:10 especially [1] 30:18 ESQ [4] 3:3,7,11,14 essentially [3] 38:13,15 51:20 establish [3] 39:12 40:9 47:23 established [1] 38:6 ET [7] 1:4,8,15 43:17 50:5 56:11 61:23 February [1] 1:20 federal [25] 4:14 5:25 14:14 18:10 GINSBURG [13] 6:20,23 7:8 8:8 9: huge [1] 30:14 6,8,18,20 10:1,6 31:8,11,13 hundred [3] 6:16 19:16,17 22:3 26:20 28:4,6 35:24 39:24 43: give [8] 14:19 22:20 24:23 37:1 47: hydroelectric [1] 6:10 16 44:4,12 48:5 49:11 52:15,17 24,25 59:21,25 hypothetical [2] 47:12,20 53:18 54:4,9,11 55:22 56:16 60:3 given [3] 20:24 28:9 63:23 I 62:7 gives [1] 27:25 [2] 27:6,17 idea federally [4] 5:14,15,22 6:1 giving [1] 37:4 [1] federally-administered [3] 64: GORSUCH [16] 41:15,18,24 42:8, imagining 12:13 impermeable [1] 53:11 15 65:13,18 17,21,25 45:8 46:23 50:10,19,24 impermissible [1] 7:14 51:1,3,9 54:14 feel [1] 63:22 implemented [2] 9:3 14:15 [13] [7] feet 7:25 19:16,17 20:10,11 21: Got 20:5,5 30:10,19 43:10 47: implications [2] 24:5 30:7 11,15 22:12 34:13 45:4 54:21 55: 23 50:12 important [3] 7:24 8:5 29:6 1 62:3 gotcha [1] 62:18 importantly [1] 37:16 [1] [1] fell 13:4 govern 40:15 in-holding [3] 38:2 41:16,19 Ferry [3] 5:7 22:5 31:20 governing [4] 40:9,10 61:19,21 [5] few [1] 38:20 government [7] 25:3 43:16 49:11 in-holdings 38:4 41:9,11 56: figure [2] 28:21 57:19 finally [1] 35:22 find [4] 12:10 49:3,4,5 fine [1] 23:19 finish [1] 15:23 first [9] 4:4 9:10 17:20 21:25 37:19 38:17 46:20 57:3 65:3 even [7] 9:4 15:15 26:20 37:19 39: Fish [2] 50:16 51:8 24 47:6 60:17 fit [2] 62:20 64:7 event [1] 7:3 five [1] 36:17 everybody [1] 10:19 fix [1] 5:8 Everybody's [1] 46:1 fly [1] 22:6 everything [4] 33:24 41:3 52:4 59: following [2] 56:3 57:12 13 foot [1] 8:19 exactly [8] 18:16 20:16,20 42:6,12, footpath [1] 8:19 24 48:20 49:13 forbids [1] 14:10 example [6] 14:20 22:21 41:22 60: FOREST [42] 1:3 4:5 5:4,5 6:11 7: 1,8 63:1 except [2] 11:1 35:24 exception [1] 63:3 exceptions [1] 38:21 exclude [1] 38:19 exclusive [1] 66:13 exclusively [1] 32:13 Excuse [3] 14:3 48:8 64:19 exemplary [1] 66:18 exempts [2] 54:10 55:16 exertion [1] 64:17 existed [1] 9:4 exits [1] 19:25 expanded [1] 11:13 expect [3] 18:17 32:8 48:16 experience [2] 20:22 21:1 expired [1] 16:12 explain [1] 25:21 explicitly [1] 58:2 extend [2] 44:12 66:19 extends [1] 35:23 extent [4] 31:16,18 41:6 54:1 F fact [4] 14:15 36:15 51:6 64:3 fails [1] 17:18 falls [4] 5:4 14:22 18:5 22:1 false [1] 47:20 far [8] 19:13,14 20:24 22:16 44:14 52:18 55:12 62:3 fatal [1] 58:8 6 8:2 10:19,21 13:3 15:8,10 16:1 18:25 20:1,21 22:2,9,21,25 23:7 25:5,5 30:21 31:7 32:23 38:3,18 39:6 41:10 45:21,21 46:8 47:7,8, 13,25 49:8 52:6 54:15 59:4 62:9 forests [1] 22:23 forget [1] 31:3 former [1] 17:24 formulation [1] 28:20 forth [3] 19:20 43:24 59:11 forward [1] 66:23 found [1] 62:8 Fourth [3] 6:25 59:2,2 front [1] 10:4 full [2] 32:13,18 fully [1] 59:10 fundamental [1] 62:12 further [1] 18:12 52:16,17 55:22 58:7 20 63:15 include [2] 11:12,14 included [1] 55:3 includes [1] 65:7 including [3] 6:12,15 28:1 17,18 57:10 58:16 59:5 [3] [4] granted 8:6 17:24 34:16 53:19 inconsistent 5:9 9:1,9 incorrect [2] 53:15,23 granting [1] 63:5 increase [1] 6:4 granular [1] 30:25 increasing [1] 30:3 [1] grateful 24:19 Indian [1] 44:7 great [2] 12:6,6 [1] ground [7] 19:23 21:19 24:1,12 28: indicate 66:10 [1] 37:20 indicating 14 34:13 43:21 [1] 4:25 informs groups [2] 39:25,25 [2] guess [5] 13:6 46:17 53:22 55:11 inherent 15:12 24:21 [1] 50:3 initial 57:11 insofar [1] 62:6 H instance [5] 5:12 11:12 12:23 16: 18 49:6 h)(1 [2] 65:12,14 haec [1] 29:21 instances [1] 16:15 halt [1] 41:2 instead [1] 21:12 Hampshire [6] 6:13 22:2,7,22 23: intended [1] 62:23 3 42:23 inter [1] 7:18 Hanover [3] 6:12 42:23 43:15 interaction [1] 29:16 happen [1] 56:21 interesting [1] 45:13 happened [4] 43:20 46:21 57:22, interests [1] 36:22 22 Interior [17] 4:19 8:18 14:25 32:7 happens [4] 16:15 21:15 41:3 54: 34:17 35:7 49:15,20 50:2,14 51:4 government's [1] 51:18 governments [1] 66:1 grant [9] 16:2 25:6 26:11 28:7 37: 18 happy [1] 21:19 hard [1] 21:24 harm [1] 23:20 Harpers [3] 5:7 22:5 31:20 hash [1] 65:8 head [6] 10:17 27:6 28:7,22,22 59: 4 heads [2] 14:13 17:3 G hear [1] 4:3 gain [1] 46:13 hearing [1] 66:23 gas [1] 53:12 Heritage [1] 63:18 gather [1] 66:24 higher [1] 20:13 General [6] 2:2 35:9 50:6 51:16 highly [1] 61:1 52:3 63:1 highways [1] 6:17 Generally [2] 25:12 26:10 historic [4] 35:15 41:22 42:2,4 generate [1] 48:17 Historical [2] 27:4,10 Georgia [2] 22:2,7 home [1] 63:18 gets [5] 18:25 39:10 45:19,22 62: Honor [3] 46:21 53:16 56:4 12 horribles [2] 59:10,20 getting [4] 30:20 40:21 46:1 50:11 Hudson [1] 6:15 57:8,10 58:3,15,15 64:12 interlocking [1] 35:3 interlocutory [1] 7:18 interpretation [1] 51:10 interpreted [1] 31:1 interstates [1] 6:16 invite [2] 46:13 66:8 involved [4] 18:19 28:5 30:10 62: 17 isn't [6] 12:3 23:15 29:23 33:17 43: 23 51:9 issue [10] 4:13 6:24 7:16,20,24 8:6 23:17 35:4 57:25 61:5 issues [3] 6:25 8:16 62:17 itself [5] 18:2 34:21 36:6 37:9,21 J job [1] 24:11 Joint [2] 54:23 56:25 jointly [1] 56:24 judge [1] 55:12 Heritage Reporting Corporation Sheet 3 ends - judge 71 Official - Subject to Final Review judgment [1] 59:12 jurisdiction [11] 17:25 23:14 28:6, 19,23 29:13 34:22 48:5 49:6 56: 25 57:16 Justice [157] 2:3 4:3,11 6:20,23 7: 8 8:8 9:6,7,8,18,20 10:1,6,14,16 11:5,24 12:4,25 13:6,22,25 14:3, 19 15:11,13,23 16:8,11 17:5,8,13 19:3,9,17,22 20:2,5,14,17 21:2,5,6, 18 22:8,10 23:12,15 24:9,16,17,18 25:2,7,11,16,20,24 26:5 27:16,17 31:8,11,13 32:10 33:4,7,12,16,20 34:4,9,20 36:1,11,18 37:22 38:7, 11,24 39:3,16,17 40:1,14,17,20,22 41:5,15,18,24 42:8,10,15,17,18,21, 22,25 43:2,12,19 44:5,9,14,20 45: 8,13 46:23 48:7 49:14,22 50:10, 11,19,24 51:1,3,9 52:11,13,24 53: 7,9,22 54:5,6,14 55:5,7,9,14 56:5, 9,13,17,22 57:11 58:18,19,25 59:8, 23 60:22 61:13,16,25 62:11 63:7, 12 64:19 65:1 66:3,6 67:2 K KAGAN [21] 10:14,16 11:5,24 12:4, 25 13:6,22,25 14:3,19 15:13 27: 16 34:20 39:17 40:1,22 55:7 56: 22 57:11 58:20 Kansas [4] 27:12,13 42:25 43:2 KAVANAUGH [2] 42:10 48:7 keep [4] 31:15 34:2 42:10 62:6 KELLOGG [68] 2:7 3:11 34:6,7,9 36:1,7,13 37:5 38:1,10,15 39:1,7, 20 40:6,14,15 41:4,6,17,21 42:1, 11 43:11,14 44:3,6,10,19 46:20 47:1 48:19 49:17 50:3,10,17,21, 25 51:2,5,14 52:12,23 53:2,15 54: 4,8,19 55:7 56:4,7,12,15,18,22 57: 3 58:1,18,23 59:1,21,25 61:1,15, 17 62:5,25 kept [1] 51:24 key [1] 18:9 kind [4] 30:24,25 45:24 56:24 kinds [5] 11:22 24:5 42:19 55:20 61:22 Kneedler [1] 66:14 L land [106] 4:21,22 5:1,12,16 6:5 8: 3 9:14,15 10:11,11,25 11:8,10 12: 1,10,12,17,22 13:17,18 14:5,6,18 15:7,21 17:2,16,22 18:10,11,17,18, 20,25 20:1,1 21:13 22:13,25 25:5, 10,12,12,13 27:7 29:19 33:15 35: 14,18,21 36:2,5,5,9,9,21,22,25 37: 4,4,8,9,14,20,21,23 38:5,9 39:4,5, 7 44:24 45:2,21,23 46:3 47:6 48:5 49:1,7,9,10,10 53:19,25 54:2,4,9, 10,11 55:21 58:6 60:8,10,14,19 61:9 62:7 64:6,18 65:6,7,10,14,18 land's [1] 16:18 landowners [2] 30:22 38:13 lands [66] 4:15,16 5:3,4 6:11,18 8: 14,23 11:20 14:14 16:19 17:17,25 18:6 21:23 23:10 26:18,20,21 27: 5,8,14 28:4,23 29:20 30:4 32:1,1, 5,11,19 33:3 34:23,24,25 35:2,24, 24 36:14,15 37:25 38:6,19,23 42: 5 44:12 47:8,9 48:24 50:15 53:21 54:12,15,16 56:8,16 57:7 60:4,6, 15 61:6,10 63:4,21 64:4,15 language [4] 24:21 48:13,16,20 large [2] 11:23 12:18 later [2] 35:9 52:5 latter [1] 17:25 Laughter [3] 24:13 46:25 67:1 law [2] 12:19 44:4 layers [1] 57:15 Leasing [14] 6:24 7:10 10:15 15: 18 27:25 29:17 34:21 35:22 36:10 47:10 54:9 56:16 57:6 63:3 least [2] 7:2 46:9 leave [3] 16:24 49:24 66:7 leaves [2] 17:24 20:17 lectern [1] 66:9 left [3] 18:19 41:8 51:12 legal [2] 47:15,17 legislation [2] 7:12,12 length [1] 39:14 level [1] 36:20 Lewis [1] 11:14 Licensor [1] 61:5 life [1] 11:2 likely [1] 59:20 limitation [1] 35:11 limitations [1] 41:12 limited [4] 26:7,19,20 63:21 line [5] 8:9 20:7 31:9,14 62:10 lines [2] 23:4 57:13 list [1] 52:7 listed [2] 51:21 52:7 listing [1] 51:24 little [5] 20:12 21:24 43:4 46:1 48: 22 LLC [1] 1:11 local [8] 42:5 47:9 53:21 54:12,14 56:20 60:6 66:1 located [2] 5:21 53:13 locations [1] 64:9 locutions [1] 12:11 long [1] 54:25 longer [1] 7:20 look [10] 5:17 18:12 29:4 30:5,8,13 54:23 61:17,19 66:23 looked [1] 13:7 looking [5] 14:9,11 21:7 25:25 27: 20 loose [1] 33:25 lot [1] 46:5 lots [1] 38:4 Louis [1] 11:17 M made [3] 35:2 38:16 51:12 main [1] 8:16 maintain [3] 5:20 26:17 33:22 maintained [1] 37:10 maintenance [2] 13:15 15:1 Management [12] 7:6 15:15 17:4 39:22 46:4 64:1,14,21,23 65:5,7, 10 managing [3] 4:22 5:2 15:7 manner [1] 66:18 Many [2] 34:3 66:24 map [1] 30:8 maple [1] 23:3 maps [1] 30:5 marker [1] 65:25 markers [1] 14:9 matter [7] 1:22 12:4 17:20 22:18 47:16,16,17 mean [24] 10:24 12:5,9 19:5,7 20:6 22:20 23:16 25:2 27:2 31:3 32:12, 17,20,22 37:1 42:22 43:3 44:17 45:9 52:18 58:9 62:11,19 meaning [1] 10:12 meaningful [1] 13:2 meanings [1] 64:22 means [6] 11:25 12:2 32:17,19 58: 14 59:15 meant [1] 10:20 members [1] 66:13 Memorandum [2] 15:6,8 metaphysical [2] 32:22 36:20 MICHAEL [3] 2:7 3:11 34:7 might [4] 7:11 46:11,14 55:21 mile [1] 19:1 miles [4] 6:11 29:24 54:25 59:17 milestone [1] 66:12 military [1] 16:20 million [1] 55:4 Mineral [17] 6:24 7:10 10:13 15:18 16:1,24 27:20,25 29:17 34:21 35: 22 36:10 47:10 54:8 56:15 57:6 63:3 minutes [1] 63:9 miscellaneous [1] 51:25 Mississippi [1] 11:16 Missouri [1] 11:16 misspeak [1] 58:19 MLA [1] 28:8 model [1] 18:9 modest [1] 30:8 Monday [1] 1:20 Montgomery [2] 27:3,8 monument [1] 35:16 moot [3] 7:11,16,17 Moreover [2] 18:2 63:25 morning [1] 4:4 most [6] 22:15 29:25 37:16 43:8 59:12 62:7 mostly [1] 25:14 move [3] 11:21 18:4 60:18 moved [1] 18:3 moves [1] 18:7 much [7] 20:22 25:17 41:9,11 51: 16 55:18 67:3 multi-uses [1] 22:23 multiple [2] 17:20 23:1 municipal [1] 63:23 municipalities [1] 64:2 N narrow [1] 24:11 national [54] 5:11 6:6 7:6 8:10,14 9:10,11,13,15,23 11:19 13:9,13,16 17:18 22:2,21,22 23:10 27:4,9,10, 15 29:8,20 30:4,11,13 31:12,19 32:2,6 33:19,23 35:11,25 38:3 41: 22 42:2,4 43:20 46:6,8,19 47:3,5, 24 52:1,12 54:10 55:2 61:20 62:9 63:21 nationally [1] 8:5 Native [1] 43:21 natural [3] 6:8 33:23 53:12 near [1] 6:15 nearly [1] 6:10 necessarily [2] 57:23 64:5 necessary [2] 7:21 29:18 need [2] 18:12 53:14 needs [2] 12:16 16:6 NEPA [1] 7:6 New [10] 6:12 22:2,6,22 23:3 29:20 42:23 52:7 60:3,19 next [1] 66:24 nightmare [1] 40:19 nine [3] 5:6 22:3 31:19 nobody [2] 11:1 46:14 non-consistent [1] 61:10 Northwest [1] 31:6 nothing [2] 5:24 16:25 NRDC's [1] 15:17 number [2] 7:2 60:5 numbers [1] 54:24 numerous [1] 6:14 O Obviously [1] 34:23 odd [1] 64:7 offhanded [1] 31:22 office [2] 33:8,9 officer [2] 63:23 66:21 Ohio [2] 11:14,15 Okay [8] 20:2 43:9,12,14 47:23 50: 24 52:25 55:10 Once [3] 39:17 50:22 55:9 one [28] 6:17 7:1 8:10,16 9:21,22 11:18 16:17 22:20,22 23:2 24:6 26:4,6,11 28:6 29:2 30:17 31:15 32:17 34:24 35:11 37:7 42:19 57: 9 59:13 61:7 66:13 one's [1] 10:17 one-way [1] 50:23 ones [3] 30:22 45:20,22 only [18] 6:9 9:1 14:17 17:24 27:1 38:24 39:3 45:6 47:18 53:5 54:4,9, 10,17 56:16 57:10 58:15 65:12 open [2] 41:8 46:9 opened [1] 46:18 operate [2] 5:19 54:3 opposite [2] 42:6,12 option [1] 49:25 oral [8] 1:23 3:2,6,10 4:9 17:11 34: 7 66:11 Oregon [3] 27:10,13,14 Heritage Reporting Corporation Sheet 4 judgment - Oregon 72 Official - Subject to Final Review Organic [6] 18:12,21 29:21 32:3 29:12 48:14 60:2 probably [4] 20:11 30:3 31:22 32: 17 organizations [1] 4:24 passes [1] 8:24 problem [6] 20:3 32:24 64:20,25 65:2,11 other [22] 6:17 10:1 13:16 14:13 past [2] 36:16 60:1 16:4 26:19 32:5 36:4 37:9 38:13 path [2] 10:21 13:4 problems [1] 24:20 39:24 40:18 44:18 48:9 55:21 57: PAUL [3] 2:5 3:7 17:11 proceedings [1] 37:14 9,20 59:15 60:7,25 62:17 66:13 people [2] 23:18 55:16 property [11] 8:2 36:24 37:23 38:2, 9,12 45:11 52:19 53:25 56:11 64: other's [1] 46:2 perfectly [1] 21:19 6 others [2] 46:7 55:14 perhaps [1] 55:25 otherwise [1] 61:9 permanent [1] 53:19 proposed [1] 28:5 out [19] 5:8 8:1 19:6,24 23:4 25:15 permission [3] 16:2,4 23:6 protective [1] 54:20 28:21 30:18 33:8 34:12,21 35:19 Permits [1] 61:6 provide [3] 14:8 15:1,4 37:5 38:17 45:18 47:3 57:19 62: person [2] 28:10 55:11 provided [4] 15:5,6 16:19 60:17 21 65:21 Petitioner [8] 1:12 2:6 3:8 17:12 provision [7] 9:9 15:19 25:2 28:17, 25 29:1 61:5 outside [6] 5:21,24,24 65:13,14,15 63:11 65:3,6,10 over [37] 5:4 6:14,15,16 7:13 8:4, Petitioners [5] 1:5 2:4 3:4,15 4:10 provisions [5] 17:21 28:16 30:19 23 12:22 13:4 17:24,25 21:21,23 58:10 60:19 philosophers [1] 32:23 27:1 28:10,20,23 34:18,22 36:2,5, phrase [1] 58:11 public [1] 16:19 9 37:8,9,18,20 38:9 39:4,5 44:11, picked [1] 29:5 published [1] 52:7 13 48:5 49:7 56:25 57:24 61:24 piece [2] 12:10 15:20 purport [1] 56:19 65:9 ping [1] 43:5 purposes [9] 23:1,2 47:19 51:15 61:11,14,15,16 63:22 overall [8] 4:19 8:21 39:21 48:2 64: PIPELINE [32] 1:11 19:2,4,12,15 12 65:4,19,20 20:10,24 21:4,10 24:10 28:18 30: pursuant [2] 32:2 53:19 12,14 34:23 36:14 46:9,11,15 47: put [7] 6:10 19:11,12 38:23 41:2 own [6] 4:24 13:11 49:9,10 53:6 4,10,14 50:4 53:11 59:5 60:3,23 59:12 48:22 59:11 61:3,8,11,13 62:15 63:5 owner [1] 61:8 puts [1] 14:4 Owners [1] 61:6 pipelines [9] 22:14 23:23 28:2 46: Q 13 50:20 53:17 59:15 60:12 61:23 owns [2] 45:21,23 [1] 30:2 quadrupling pipes [1] 16:3 P quaint [1] 30:19 Pittsburgh [1] 11:15 Pacific [4] 13:10 31:4,6 47:1 question [21] 6:24 7:10 13:1 15: [1] plain 12:4 24 23:16,20,21 34:11 38:8 41:7 PAGE [4] 3:2 5:17 9:22 54:23 plane [1] 22:6 42:19,24 43:9 45:17 47:21 50:4, pages [1] 7:2 please [5] 4:12 17:14 34:10 42:9, 11 57:2 58:16 61:7 62:12 par [2] 50:9 52:10 17 parade [2] 59:10,20 quite [6] 11:1 23:16 24:5 40:20 50: pleased [1] 55:11 12 55:11 parallel [1] 60:24 plus [1] 54:19 parcels [1] 16:16 Point [11] 6:16 24:3 37:5 38:17 45: R Park [130] 4:16,23 5:7,13 6:6,6,7,7 14 47:3 50:17,21 58:8 61:2 64:24 [1] 47:12 raise 8:1,11,13,14 9:10,11,13,15,23 11: pointed [2] 34:21 35:19 rangers [1] 31:20 19 13:9,13,16 14:4,16,17 17:16,18 pong [1] 43:5 rare [1] 66:12 18:20,25 20:21 22:4,23,25 23:10, portions [2] 5:20 47:2 rather [1] 50:1 13,17 24:7,23 25:9 26:22,24 27:3, Portland [2] 27:13,14 rational [1] 46:18 5,9,11,15 29:20,25 30:4,11,21 31: position [8] 5:14 18:24 48:10,18 read [7] 12:8,16 25:1,4 28:16 51: 12,16,17,19,21,23,25 32:2,6,11,12, 52:21 53:3,3 65:19 18 64:20 14,15,23 33:2,3,8,9,13,15,17,19, positions [1] 66:16 reading [4] 6:1 21:25 25:22 31:15 25 35:1,8,10,11,13,25 37:17,24 38: possible [1] 56:23 real [1] 11:2 3 39:8,10,15,22 40:7,8,11,12,15 possibly [1] 15:15 reality [1] 32:25 41:1,10,13,16,19 43:21 44:11,15, potential [1] 7:9 really [12] 11:1 28:21 30:17 32:19, 25 45:7,12,12,19,23 47:5 48:1,24 potentially [1] 7:17 19,21 49:22 52:25 53:10,10 58:9 49:9,16 50:1,8,15 51:21 52:4,6,9 Potomac [1] 63:18 62:22 54:10,21 55:2 56:18 57:17 59:13 power [1] 42:3 reason [7] 7:23 18:15 25:18,21 49: 60:9,10 61:18,21 62:10 63:4,21 powerfully [1] 18:8 14 60:13 62:2 parks [7] 46:6,8,19 47:3 50:22 52: powers [1] 58:21 reasons [3] 11:22 17:18 62:15 1,12 practical [4] 22:11,18,21 47:16 reassign [1] 50:15 Parkway [17] 20:9,12,23 35:16 49: preexisting [1] 54:1 REBUTTAL [2] 3:13 63:10 5 51:22 52:8 60:8,13,21,23 61:4, preliminary [2] 6:21,23 recently [1] 11:13 15,16,18,19 62:1 PRESERVATION [3] 1:7,14 4:6 recognition [1] 36:5 parkway's [1] 20:12 pretty [1] 22:16 recognize [1] 66:12 [8] part 9:16 33:12,13 35:11 41:9, primarily [1] 8:18 recognizes [1] 58:8 10 45:3 55:4 principle [1] 60:11 reconsideration [1] 7:4 particular [2] 20:24 39:23 private [26] 4:15 8:3 20:1 30:22 36: records [1] 66:10 [2] parts 27:7 62:7 9,14 37:23,25 38:5,9,12,19,23 39: recreation [1] 52:1 pass [1] 61:24 4 41:11 42:4 44:24 47:9 53:25 54: refers [3] 37:9 58:5,12 passage [3] 37:8,10,20 12,15 55:16 56:11,19 60:6 66:17 34:1 40:11 passed [5] 18:13 63:2 regular [1] 54:2 regulate [5] 17:7 41:1,7,11 56:19 regulates [3] 6:8 13:13 39:18 regulating [2] 14:5 41:14 regulation [8] 13:17,19 14:16 32: 7 40:3,5 63:14,20 [11] 13:7 38:5,18,20 40:7,9,13 44:12 53:6 61:18,21 regulatory [3] 14:11 42:3 57:20 reinforces [1] 18:8 relatedly [1] 45:15 relevant [1] 16:21 relocate [1] 65:24 relocated [2] 11:22,25 rely [1] 62:24 remaining [1] 63:9 remains [2] 43:22 44:7 remember [1] 9:17 removing [1] 24:7 repeal [1] 57:15 repeatedly [2] 4:20 37:11 reply [11] 8:9 9:17,20,25 10:2 25:3 26:10 30:6 51:18 54:22 58:7 represent [1] 24:10 require [2] 37:13 49:25 required [2] 34:2 66:1 requires [4] 5:18 14:2,12 15:9 requiring [1] 17:3 reserved [1] 20:18 resist [1] 24:11 resources [1] 53:12 respect [2] 31:14 37:24 respond [1] 16:13 Respondent [1] 65:11 Respondent's [1] 65:17 Respondents [6] 1:9,16 2:8 3:12 5:11 34:8 Respondents' [3] 5:9 17:15 18: 23 response [1] 59:19 responsibilities [4] 5:1 15:16 16: 10 64:14 responsibility [2] 12:22 39:23 responsible [3] 4:24 5:6 15:20 rest [1] 53:20 restrict [1] 23:21 restriction [1] 39:2 restrictions [1] 34:1 result [1] 49:23 return [1] 66:8 reverse [2] 57:5 58:21 reviews [1] 7:9 ribbons [1] 46:7 ridge [12] 19:10,10 20:7,8,9 49:5 51:22 52:8 60:8,21,23 61:4 right-of-way [17] 7:25 16:2,17 26: 11 28:5,7,9 37:7,18 57:24 59:5 60: 3 61:8 65:15,17,23 66:2 right-of-ways [1] 53:5 rights [11] 16:24 26:13 34:15 35: 24 36:24,25 37:13,23 38:2,9,12 rights-of-way [3] 28:1,18 58:16 rights-of-ways [3] 34:18 50:5 61: 23 regulations Heritage Reporting Corporation Sheet 5 Organic - rights-of-ways 73 Official - Subject to Final Review RIVER [6] 1:7,14 4:6 11:15,15 60: 13 6:6,7,11 8:2,2,14 11:19 13:3,9, 15 13,17 14:4,16 15:8,10 17:18 18: rivers [15] 6:14 12:23 18:13,16 29: 20 19:1 20:1,21,21 22:9 23:7,10, 14,18 24:7,23 25:5,6,10 26:22,24 12,15,16 48:14,21,21,23 51:7,23 27:3,5,9,11,15 30:1,21,21 31:7,21, 52:8 60:10 23,25 32:2,6,12,14,15,23,24 33:2, roads [2] 6:16 27:2 3,8,9,15,17 34:2 35:1,8,10,14 37: ROBERTS [15] 4:3 16:11 17:5,8 34:4 36:1,11,18 53:9,22 54:6 63:7 18,24 38:4,18 39:6,8,10,22 40:7,8, 12 41:1,10,10,13,16,19 44:11,16 66:3,6 67:2 route [6] 18:4,7 20:10 39:11 50:23 45:7,12,12,19,21,22,23 46:8 47:6, 7,8,13,25 48:1,24 49:8,9,16 50:1,8, 65:22 15,16 51:21 52:5,6,6 54:10,15,21 rules [2] 49:21 53:6 56:18 57:17 59:4 61:18,21 66:21 run [6] 23:4 47:11 54:16,24 60:19, 24 Service's [1] 22:24 running [1] 53:17 Service-administered [2] 14:18 runs [9] 33:8 40:23,24 47:2,7,8 53: 17:17 25 63:19 64:8 set [1] 45:18 severe [1] 41:12 S shall [6] 5:19 8:18 14:25 15:3 35:6 same [14] 12:24 17:7 18:13,13 21: 40:3 5 29:11 42:18,24 43:9 48:15 49:2 shared [1] 10:10 60:6,11,20 shift [1] 12:22 sap [3] 23:4,4,18 shouldn't [1] 62:16 satisfied [1] 59:10 show [1] 33:24 saying [8] 8:12 9:19 10:23 34:13 shows [1] 30:9 36:7 47:22 55:19 58:20 side [4] 26:19 40:18 43:4 48:9 says [28] 8:9 9:10,13,21 14:23 15: sidewalks [2] 43:17,19 3 26:21 28:3,18 31:15,24 32:10 significant [3] 8:6 48:11,17 34:15 35:5 37:12,17 38:22 39:9 silentio [1] 31:2 40:8,12 57:6 58:1 61:9 64:11,13, simple [1] 21:7 22 65:4,9 simply [2] 4:18 51:12 scenic [8] 5:21 48:23 51:7,23 52:8 simultaneous [2] 15:14 16:10 60:10,15 63:19 since [2] 7:8 60:1 Second [5] 6:3 30:8 37:12 55:6 65: single [1] 60:3 8 sitting [1] 31:20 Secretary [28] 4:18 5:19 8:17 14: Six [2] 19:16,17 24,25 28:2 32:7 34:16 35:7 37:17 size [1] 30:3 42:13 49:15,20 50:2,14 51:3 57:8, small [1] 11:23 8,10,16,24 58:2,3,5,13,14,15 59:3 snake [1] 47:14 Section [5] 5:18 29:15,15 63:16 snowmobiling [1] 40:4 64:11 Solicitor [1] 2:2 Sections [1] 65:11 solid [1] 38:23 see [12] 18:9 20:2 23:24 24:3,5 29: somebody [5] 23:19 24:6 36:6 37: 5 30:6 44:21 45:7 48:16 55:5,19 2,8 seeing [1] 9:24 somehow [1] 12:14 seeking [1] 46:15 someone [1] 36:3 seem [2] 14:21 21:11 sometimes [3] 11:9 16:23 62:19 seems [4] 13:9 36:19 50:23 53:24 somewhere [3] 19:13 37:3 40:25 segments [1] 4:25 sorry [6] 41:17 42:10 53:16 58:19, select [2] 39:10 65:23 23 59:1 Selma [7] 27:3,8 40:24 41:3,15,18 sort [3] 28:17 29:2 30:9 42:23 sorts [2] 32:5 62:14 sense [7] 16:21 18:4,5 32:15 33:1, SOTOMAYOR [22] 9:7 15:11,23 19,25 16:8 24:16,18 25:2,7,11,16,20,24 sensible [1] 57:19 26:5 40:14,17 41:5 58:18,25 59:8, sentence [2] 65:4,9 23 64:19 65:1 separate [4] 16:15 25:15 29:14 51: speaking [2] 26:10 36:12 24 specific [2] 39:22 48:22 separated [1] 16:22 specifically [6] 34:15 38:18 40:8 separately [1] 16:16 42:2 61:22 64:11 separation [1] 36:4 specificity [1] 30:25 Sequoia [1] 46:6 specify [1] 48:25 serious [1] 59:12 spelled [1] 65:21 SERVICE [124] 1:3 4:5,16,23 5:5,7, spend [1] 25:17 spots [2] 60:25 62:4 square [1] 21:25 St [1] 11:17 stage [1] 7:23 start [1] 8:4 started [1] 27:20 starts [1] 27:11 state [20] 4:14 33:23,23 34:3 36:9, T statutes [9] 12:17,21 35:4 43:5 49: 21:6 26:23 29:14 31:4,5 34:12 36: 8 41:12,21 47:21 48:8 50:25 53: 13,16 64:13 they've [1] 39:13 thinking [3] 26:12,14 36:18 thinks [1] 11:18 third [2] 6:25 16:23 though [3] 18:15 21:20 22:17 thousand [6] 6:11 19:1 45:4 54:20 55:1 62:3 Thousands [3] 18:24,24 29:24 threatens [1] 63:25 three [4] 16:14 19:5 35:3 64:10 throughout [3] 46:7 49:19 66:15 thwart [1] 46:11 together [2] 28:16 62:20 took [2] 50:5,6 top [3] 12:14 21:9 24:24 topic [1] 28:13 total [1] 22:4 tough [1] 43:4 toward [1] 9:22 towns [1] 6:12 tradition [1] 18:23 Trail [162] 4:15,20,21,25 5:3,5,11, 12,14,24,25 6:4 7:13,24 8:1,10,13, 18,19,22,23 9:4,11,14,21,23 10:11, 19,21,23,24,25 11:6,6,7,14,20,21 12:3,9,11 13:8,10,12,14,14,15,18 14:5,9,22 15:25 16:3 17:17,22 18: 3,4,4 19:6,7,12,14 20:9,11,18,23 21:3,8,12,13,14,16,22 22:5,12 23: 5,25 24:25 26:12,17,20,22,23 27:4, 4,10 29:8 30:23 31:4,5,6,12,16,17, 24,24 32:1 33:1 34:19 35:6,17 36: 9,16,21 37:13,15,18,21,23 38:11 39:11,12,14,17,18 40:4,10,23 41: 22 42:14 43:24 44:11,13 46:5 47: 2,6,14,19 51:23 52:9 53:4,5,18,25 54:2,18,19 58:13 59:14 60:4,14, 15,18,20,24 61:3,20,21,24 62:4,6, 8 63:19,22 64:2,5,8,13 65:5,6,14, 18 trail-wide [1] 5:1 Trails [46] 4:14 5:20,21 6:19 11:12, table [1] 66:14 tact [1] 25:11 talked [3] 18:18 29:13,14 talks [4] 28:3 29:16 34:22 49:19 tap [1] 23:3 temporarily [1] 16:22 [2] 14 38:19 39:25 42:4 43:20 44:13, ten 22:3 31:19 [1] 29:24 tens 25,25 47:9 53:21 54:12,14 56:19 [5] 29:5,7 35:20 49:2,7 term 60:5 65:25 territory [1] 46:2 statements [2] 31:22,23 [3] STATES [7] 1:1,3,24 4:5 5:19 56:8 text 9:2 17:18,20 [2] 48:9,10 textual 66:17 thanks [1] 34:3 stating [1] 8:17 themselves [1] 17:25 status [1] 18:6 [1] [16] statute 9:2,3,5 13:23 18:10 25: theories 30:7 [4] 5:9 29:3 41:19 65:17 theory 25 29:7 30:17,24 32:4,10 35:21 There's [19] 10:20 12:1 16:18 19:7 44:14 48:4 53:8 56:14 24 55:18 61:25 62:20,23 statutory [3] 9:9,12 63:14 stay [1] 33:3 steer [1] 30:11 steps [1] 50:6 still [4] 22:18 37:1,4 38:5 stop [1] 59:15 straight [2] 6:14 63:19 straightforward [1] 26:16 strange [2] 12:8,11 strike [2] 36:23 51:10 strikes [2] 13:7 63:18 strip [1] 37:9 struggling [1] 45:16 Sturgeon [3] 35:19 41:8 63:15 sub [1] 31:2 subject [5] 18:11,21 29:20 32:6 33: 25 submitted [3] 66:7 67:4,6 subsidiary [1] 28:17 substratum [1] 28:9 subsurface [2] 26:13 56:7 sudden [2] 23:9,11 suggest [3] 47:15 48:20 53:24 suggested [1] 63:16 suggesting [1] 57:12 suggests [2] 28:8 63:20 superficial [1] 25:22 supersede [2] 16:1,4 support [1] 26:14 suppose [3] 21:18 22:15 40:2 supposed [2] 19:15 22:24 SUPREME [2] 1:1,23 surface [17] 21:11,15,16 22:12 23: 5,9 25:12 28:3,4,10,20,24 34:23, 25 44:23 57:7 64:8 surface/subsurface [1] 27:24 system [41] 5:11 6:4,7,10 8:11,15 9:10,11,13,15,23 29:9,20 30:4,11, 14 31:12,16,17,19 32:11 33:13,19, 25 34:2 35:12,25 38:3 39:15 40: 11,16 45:12 50:22 52:10 55:2 60: 9,10 62:10 63:4,21 64:1 systems [1] 17:6 Heritage Reporting Corporation Sheet 6 RIVER - Trails 74 Official - Subject to Final Review 22 12:16,20 14:10 15:2 16:16 17: 21 18:2 19:1 26:24 27:6 29:4,7,23, 24 30:13,18 35:5 37:11 39:9 42:2, 4,7,12,20 45:19 47:24 48:2 49:3, 19 50:3 51:6,11,16 52:22 53:20 54:16 56:23 57:13 60:2,7 transfer [3] 64:13,17,23 transferred [4] 18:18,20,25 65:10 transferring [3] 6:5 29:13,19 transfers [2] 18:10,17 transformative [1] 31:2 traversed [3] 4:15 17:16 32:1 traverses [3] 10:19 11:20 17:22 traversing [2] 12:12 36:4 treat [1] 50:9 tree [7] 5:4,8 13:4 14:22 18:5 22:1 24:7 trees [2] 23:3,4 troubles [1] 50:12 true [6] 7:17 28:11 30:10 41:25 52: 21 57:23 try [1] 58:9 trying [4] 9:17 19:4 28:13,21 TVA's [1] 6:9 two [25] 6:9 15:14,19,24 16:9,15 17:3 19:4 22:12 25:15 26:24 28: 19 30:5 35:9 36:15 37:6 50:5 52:5 53:21 57:19 58:10 60:24 63:9 64: 6,22 two-dimensional [1] 20:4 type [1] 20:8 types [1] 16:14 40:8,12 44:7 46:18 47:13 uses [7] 13:13 28:20 37:11 47:18 48:5 49:7 58:11 using [1] 37:19 V vast [1] 6:5 vehicles [1] 13:14 verba [1] 29:21 versus [1] 4:5 viable [2] 26:1,4 view [5] 10:9 23:22 24:20 32:4 59: 13 viewing [1] 22:11 views [2] 19:20 20:19 Virginia [2] 22:6 31:20 volunteer [1] 39:24 W walk [3] 11:5 37:2 54:22 walking [4] 11:8,10,10,11 wanted [3] 49:23 51:11 62:5 wants [4] 12:21 24:6 56:10 64:17 warm [1] 28:13 Washington [5] 1:19 2:3,5,7 33: words [3] 13:16 36:4 44:18 work [3] 45:10 50:23 62:19 works [1] 50:23 worries [1] 55:13 worrying [2] 43:7 55:24 wrap [1] 10:17 wrapped [1] 12:10 writers [2] 12:6,7 Y YANG [44] 2:2 3:3,14 4:8,9,11 6:20, 22 7:7,15 8:12 9:7,16,19,24 10:3, 8,15,17 11:3,9 12:2,15 13:1,5,19, 24 14:2,7 15:3,11,22 16:5,14 17:6, 9 31:9 63:9,10,12 64:20,24 65:3 66:5 years [7] 32:25 35:9 36:17 52:5 60: 1 64:3 65:20 Yep [2] 13:5 43:11 Yosemite [3] 46:6 52:14 55:12 yourself [1] 12:10 Z zero-sum [1] 46:13 10 waste [1] 38:23 water [3] 9:14 35:14 49:1 waters [3] 6:18 11:19,21 waterways [1] 11:12 way [17] 9:2,3 11:17 14:15 15:4,5 20:6 21:7 25:4,19 26:2,11,14,16 27:18,19 32:7 ways [5] 16:20 22:12 34:16 37:13 U 60:17 ultimately [2] 5:2,2 [1] 66:24 week unaffected [3] 54:13,15,17 [5] 49:4 57:13,15,16,18 Weeks [36] under 6:19 7:5,11 8:1 14:12 [1] 13:11 weirdness 20:10 22:16 23:13 27:21,24 28:5, [5] 6:15 11:17 22:5 31:20 45: West 8 30:1 33:1 34:13,18,20,24 36:14, 22 14,16,21 43:21 47:5 53:17 57:5 [2] 60:4,18,23,24 61:3,3,24 62:1,4 65: western 46:6,19 [3] 45:1 53:3 59:17 whatever 16 whereby [1] 64:1 underground [2] 19:13 44:18 Whereupon [1] 67:5 underlying [1] 16:24 whether [14] 4:13 8:17,20,22 27: [1] underneath 25:13 understand [6] 10:18,20 20:7 45: 21 30:20 34:12 35:15,15,16,16 36: 20,21 61:2 10,24,25 [1] 45:18 who's [1] understanding 45:16 [2] 8:3 26:22 whole undisturbed [2] 18:1 51:12 [2] 54:21 55:1 wide uniform [1] 65:25 width [2] 18:18 39:11 uniforms [1] 31:21 [5] unimpaired [3] 22:25 33:23 34:3 wild 48:23 51:23 52:7 60:9,14 [2] 50:16 51:8 Wildlife [3] unit 22:4 39:15 52:4 will [5] 7:9,10 14:19 16:12 57:19 UNITED [6] 1:1,3,24 4:5 56:8 66: win [5] 21:19 23:22 27:21,24 28:13 17 winning [1] 24:11 [3] units 40:9 51:22 52:9 wish [1] 45:2 unless [2] 25:15 44:3 withdrawn [1] 16:19 unlike [1] 22:23 within [3] 10:12 19:23,23 [1] unmistakably 58:12 without [4] 32:8 35:5,10 64:4 untenable [1] 18:23 [1] 58:22 won until [1] 6:17 [1] 27:21 wondered [2] unusual 36:3,23 [1] 30:19 wonderful up [16] 7:19 11:16 12:10 19:14 20: [2] 29:2 48:6 word 7 21:22 22:6,21 27:12 35:19 37:4 Heritage Reporting Corporation Sheet 7 Trails - zero-sum