C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

25 SEPTEMB ER 2019

D AY 1 7 0

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 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 25 SEPT EMB ER 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s W e n tz e l , g o o d m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y.
Are you ready?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I am ready –
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s p u t o n y o u r m i c r o p h o n e .

S w i tc h o n y o u r

m ic r o p h o n e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : M o r n i n g C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Morning.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W e a r e g o in g t o l e a d t h e e v id e n c e o f M r

Sesoko.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Fr o m I P I D t o d a y.

T h e r e i s – a l o t o f th e

e v i d e n c e i s c o r r o b o r a t io n o f w h a t M r M c B r id e h a s t e s t if i e d t o . W e w i ll
n o t s p e n d t o o m u c h t i m e a n d g o in t o t o o m u c h d e t a i l a n d tr y a n d f i n d –
p r o v i d e c o n f ir m a ti o n w h e r e w e c a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. N o t h a t is fi n e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is

fi n e .

Pl e a s e a d m i n is t e r

th e o a t h o r

a ffir m a t i o n ?
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : M y n a m e is M a t th e w s S e s o k o .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : N o .

Page 2 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o h e l p m e G o d .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Mr S e s o k o .
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Ms Susan.
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s W e n tz e l . B e f o r e w e s t a r t M r S e s o k o I a m a w a r e
a n d y o u w o u l d b e a w a r e a l s o th a t w h e n M r M c Br i d e w a s g o in g t o g i v e
e v i d e n c e o r w h e n h e g a v e e v id e n c e t h e c o m m i s s io n b e c a m e a w a r e th a t
in h i s e v i d e n c e h e w a s g o i n g t o s a y s o m e t h i n g a b o u t a d is c i p l in a r y
h e a r in g i n v o lv i n g y o u I t h i n k w h i c h w a s c h a ir e d b y m y y o u n g e r b r o t h e r
A d v o c a t e M x o li s i Z o n d o a n d t h a t o n c e t h e c o m m i s s io n w a s a w a r e o f
t h a t i t s o u g h t v ie w s fr o m t h o s e w h o w e r e – w h o h a d s o m e t h i n g t o s a y
a b o u t t h a t i n c l u d i n g y o u w h e t h e r th e y h a d a n y o b j e c t io n t o m e h e a r in g
t h a t e v id e n c e . N o w m y r e c o l l e c ti o n is t h a t y o u w e r e a m o n g t h o s e w h o

20

s a i d y o u h a d n o p r o b le m w i th t h a t a n d i f t h a t is s o I ju s t w o u l d li k e t o
h a v e t h a t c o n fir m e d . Is th a t s o ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I c a n c o n fir m C h a ir p e r s o n I d id in d ic a t e t h a t
I d o n o t h a v e a n o b j e c t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t th e C h a i r h e a r in g t h a t e v i d e n c e .

Page 3 of 182

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h a t w e – w h a t w e d i d i n r e g a r d t o t h a t i s s u e
w a s to s a y t o th e e x t e n t – w a s t o s a y th a t I w o u ld n o t h e a r t h e – th a t
e v i d e n c e i n s o f a r a s t h e r e a r e a ll e g a t io n s m a d e a g a i n s t h i m t h a t is m y
y o u n g e r b r o t h e r u n ti l I h a d i n i t ia t e d a p r o c e s s in t e r ms o f w h i c h I w o u l d
g e t s u b m i s s io n s a s t o h o w I s h o u l d h a n d l e t h a t .

B u t i t – I th i n k

e v e r y o n e th a t is y o u r s e l f , M r M c B r i d e , M r K h u b a I t h i n k G e n e r a l S ib iy a
a s w e ll i f I a m n o t m i s t a k e n I th in k e v e r y b o d y s a i d t h e y h a d n o p r o b l e m
w i t h t h a t . B u t w e – w e d e c i d e d t h a t w e s h o u l d n o t n e c e s s a r il y d e c i d e i t
s i m p l y o n t h e b a s is th a t t h o s e a ff e c te d h a d n o p r o b le m i t m i g h t n e e d
10

m o r e th o u g h t .

S o t h a t p r o c e s s t h a t w a s e n v is a g e d h a s n o t h a p p e n e d

y e t b u t I d i d s e e w h e n I r e a d y o u r s ta t e m e n t t h a t u n li k e i n t h e c a s e o f
M c Br i d e ’s s ta t e m e n t w h e r e t h e r e s e e m e d t o b e s o m e s u g g e s t io n o f –
s o m e s u g g e s t i o n o f s o m e k i n d t h a t M r M x o l is i Zo n d o m a y h a v e b e e n
u s e d o r m a y h a v e b e e n p a r t o f a s c h e m e t o g e t r i d o f c e r t a in p e o p l e
t h a t – a t l e a s t th a t i s h o w I u n d e r s t o o d p a r t o f h is s t a t e m e n t , t h a t is M r
M c Br i d e ’s s ta t e m e n t y o u r s t a te m e n t s e e m e d n o t t o m a k e a n y s u c h
s u g g e s t io n b u t i t s e e m e d t o s i m p l y s t a t e th e f a c ts t h a t h e w a s t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e d is c i p l i n a r y in q u ir y a n d w h e n t h e i n q u ir y w a s
s u p p o s e d t o h a p p e n y o u w e r e – y o u d i d a tt e n d – y o u w e r e i n h o s p it a l
20

o r t h e r e w a s a d o c t o r ’s c e r ti f ic a te to s a y y o u w e r e – y o u w e r e n o t w e ll .
Yo u r c o u n s e l a s k e d f o r a p o s t p o n e m e n t a n d h e r e f u s e d i t a n d y o u w e n t
a h e a d a n d m a d e – a n d d e c id e d t h e m a t t e r a n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r
s t a te m e n t i t le a v e e v e r y t h i n g a t t h a t . Is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t is c o r r e c t . I d i d n o t t a k e
t h e is s u e f u r t h e r t h a n t h a t .

Page 4 of 182

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C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y. Ye s , y e s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n I d i d n o t t a k e t h e
is s u e f u r t h e r th a n th a t e x c e p t t o s h o w t h a t in m y v i e w t h e w a y h e a c t e d
showed bias.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o m e t h in g t h a t w il l n o t b e e x p e c te d fr o m a n
impartial…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C h a ir p e r s o n in a d is c i p li n a r y in q u ir y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . Th a t is a s f a r a s y o u – th a t is a s f a r a s y o u
– you go?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y n o th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. M r S e s o k o i t is c o r r e c t th a t
y o u h a v e p r o v i d e d a s ta t e m e n t t o t h e c o m m is s i o n ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d t h e s t a te m e n t t h a t a p p e a r s in t h e b u n d le
a h e a d o f y o u – i n fr o n t o f y o u fr o m p a g e s 1 to 2 0 i s th a t y o u r
s t a te m e n t ?

20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a i r I b e g t o a d mi t th is E x h i b i t Y 3 i n to

evidence?
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e l e v e r a r c h fil e c o n t a i n in g t h e s t a t e m e n t o r

a ffi d a v i t o r b y Mr M a t t h e w s S e s o k o w i ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t Y 3 .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.

Page 5 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w il l s e e M r S e s o k o w h e n y o u o p e n t h e fi le i n

fr o n t o f y o u t h a t i t h a s g o t p a g e n u m b e r s w r i t t e n i n r e d a t t h e to p .
W h e n Ms W e n tz e l r e f e r s to p a g e s y o u w i ll s e e t h a t i t s a y s M S 0 1 , 0 2 –
s h e w il l j u s t s a y p a g e 1 , p a g e 2 .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d le a v e o u t M S a n d 0 s o y o u …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I h a v e s e e n t h a t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.

10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th a n k y o u .

M r S e s o k o h o w lo n g h a v e y o u

been employed at IPID?

I t o r i g i n a l ly w a s th e I n d e p e n d e n t C o m p l a i n ts

D ir e c t o r a te i f y o u c o u l d j u s t e x p l a i n th a t t o th e C h a ir ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I h a v e b e e n e m p lo y e d b y I P I D f o r m a l ly I C D
s in c e t h e in s ti t u t i o n w a s e s t a b l is h e d o n t h e 1 s t A p r i l 1 9 9 7 .
p o s i ti o n s

from

ju n io r

m a n a g e m e n t,

senior

management

I held
–

junior

m a n a g e m e n t , m id d le m a n a g e m e n t , s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t u p t o e x e c u ti v e
m a n a g e m e n t w h e r e I a m c u r r e n tl y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And at the time that you were approached to
in v e s t i g a t e th e R e n d i t io n M a t t e r w h ic h w e w il l d e a l w i th in – in d u e
c o u r s e w h a t p o s i ti o n d i d y o u h o l d ?
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

I n i t ia ll y w h e n t h e m a t t e r c a m e t o o u r

a tt e n ti o n I w a s t h e A c ti n g N a ti o n a l H e a d o f I n v e s t i g a t io n s a t I P I D a n d I
e v e n t u a l ly g o t a p p o i n te d to t h e p o s i t io n – i n a p e r m a n e n t p o s it i o n a s
t h e N a t i o n a l H e a d o f I n v e s ti g a ti o n s a t I P I D .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e j u s t – I a m – m a y b e j u s t t o r e fr e s h my m e m o r y

Page 6 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
o n t h e s t r u c t u r e o f I P I D . Yo u h a v e g o t t h e d ir e c to r, e x e c u t iv e d ir e c t o r
o r I P I D a t th e to p .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e n y o u h a v e g o t H e a d – N a t io n a l H e a d o f

I n v e s ti g a t i o n s ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n – w h y – w h a t e ls e h a v e y o u g o t i n te r ms o f
t h e s tr u c t u r e ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
10

Then you have other program managers

lik e …
CHAIRPERSON:

On

th e

same

level

as

N a ti o n a l

Head

of

I n v e s ti g a t i o n s ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d t h e n y o u h a v e – l ik e y o u h a v e t h e o th e r
p r o g r a m m a n a g e r s , d i ff e r e n t p r o g r a ms .

C u r r e n t ly w e h a v e f o u r

p r o g r a m s i n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n s a n d in c l u d i n g t h e C F O is a ls o p a r t o f th e
E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d th e n y o u h a v e t h e Pr o v in c i a l H e a d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t r e p o r t t o m e a s t h e N a ti o n a l H e a d o f
I n v e s ti g a t i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

S o w o u ld t h e H e a d o f e a c h p r o g r a m h a v e

P r o v i n c ia l p e o p l e – a p r o v i n c i a l p e r s o n w h o r e p o r ts t o t h e m ?

Page 7 of 182

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M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : N o , n o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r o n ly th e N a t io n a l …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : O n ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e N a ti o n a l H e a d o f I n v e s ti g a ti o n s ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

A ll th e – y e s a ll th e P r o v in c i a l H e a d s

r e p o r t s t o th e N a t io n a l H e a d o f I n v e s ti g a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y, o k a y. S o – s o w o u l d th e N a t io n a l H e a d o f

I n v e s ti g a t i o n s b e l ik e t h e s e c o n d i n c o m m a n d o r o n e o f t h o s e w h o a r e
i m m e d i a t e ly b e l o w t h e E x e c u tiv e D ir e c t o r ?
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

I a m o n e o f th o s e w h o a r e i m m e d i a t e ly

b e l o w t h e E x e c u tiv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e l o w t h e – o k a y.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

D ir e c to r r e p o r t d ir e c tl y to t h e E x e c u t iv e

D ir e c t o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

Is i t c o r r e c t th a t i n t h e

c ir c u m s ta n c e s w e a r e g o in g to d e a l w i th i n y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u w e r e
d is m i s s e d o n t h e 1 6 t h A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 a n d th e n u l ti m a t e l y r e i n s t a te d o n t h e
23rd November 2016?
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Mr S e s o k o c o u ld y o u p le a s e t e ll t h e C h a ir

w h e n y o u fir s t a p p r o a c h e d to d e a l w i t h t h e R e n d i t io n M a t te r t o
in v e s t i g a t e t h e R e n d i ti o n o f th e Z i m b a b w e N a t io n a l s b y m e a n s o f t h e
S o u th A fr ic a n P o li c e F o r c e b a c k to Z i m b a b w e .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Th e m a t te r w a s fir s t b r o u g h t t o m y a t t e n t i o n

Page 8 of 182

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b y t h e t h e n E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r o f I P I D Mr B e u k m a n w h o h a d i n fo r m e d
m e t h a t h e w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y t h e M in i s t e r o f P o li c e t h e n M i n is t e r
N a t h i M t h e t h w a t h a t ID I P m u s t i n v e s ti g a te t h is m a t t e r. A s – a t t h e ti m e
I w a s t h e A c ti n g N a t io n a l H e a d o f I n v e s t ig a ti o n r e q u e s te d m e t o p u t u p
a te a m t h a t w o u ld i n v e s ti g a te t h is m a t t e r.

And I then appointed Mr

I n n o c e n t K h u b a to l e a d t h e t e a m t h a t i n v e s ti g a te d t h is – t h i s m a tt e r.
M r B e u k m a n f u r th e r a d v i s e d m e t h a t w e a r e s u p p o s e d t o m e e t w i t h t h e
M i n is t e r a n d th e t h e n S e c r e ta r y o f P o l ic e M s J e n n y Q h o b o s h e a n e t o
d is c u s s t h is is s u e a n d s o t h a t t h e y c a n h a n d o v e r t h e in v e s ti g a t io n t o
10

u s . A n d in d e e d w e – w e w e n t t o a m e e ti n g w h e r e s u c h a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n
w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e h a n d e d o v e r t o u s b y th e M i n i s te r a n d t h e
S e c r e t a r y o f P o li c e . H o w e v e r w h e n w e a r r iv e d a t t h e m e e ti n g w e o n ly
f o u n d t h e S e c r e t a r y o f P o l ic e w h o t h e n i n fo r m e d u s th a t t h e M i n is te r
h a d s a i d w e s h o u ld h o ld o ff a n d t h a t w h e n h e is r e a d y t o h a n d o v e r t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n t o u s t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n w il l b e h a n d e d o v e r t o u s . I t w a s
m y s e l f , M r B e u k m a n a n d Mr K h u b a w h o h a d a tt e n d e d th a t m e e ti n g .
A n d t h a t w a s t h e la s t t i m e w e h e a r d a b o u t t h is m a t t e r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Can you …
CHAIRPERSON:

20

W a s i t – s o r r y – w a s i t n o r m a l fo r th e Mi n is te r t o

r e q u e s t I P I D t o in v e s t i g a t e c e r ta i n m a t t e r s ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s it is n o r m a l C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o r m a l ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : E v e n t h o u g h o u r A c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : M a k e s p r o v is i o n f o r t h e f a c t th a t …

Page 9 of 182

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h e M i n is t e r m a y r e fe r in v e s ti g a t i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To I P I D .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y th a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e n Mr S e s o k o ju s t s o w e c a n g e t a – a ti m e
li n e is i t c o r r e c t t h a t th is o c c u r r e d d u r in g O c t o b e r 2 0 11 ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

S o w h e n d i d y o u n e x t h e a r a b o u t th e

in v e s t i g a t io n ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I t w a s a b o u t a y e a r la t e r. I t h i n k i t s h o u l d
h a v e b e e n O c t o b e r – a r o u n d O c to b e r 2 0 1 2 .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

When Colonel Moukangwe from Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e c a m e t o m y o ff ic e w i t h a d o c k e t a n d i n d ic a te d to m e t h a t h e
had been requested by the Minister to hand over this docket to IPID so
t h a t i t c a n b e i n v e s t ig a t e d .

B y v ir t u e o f th e fa c t t h a t t h e i n s tr u c ti o n

c a m e to – f r o m t h e M in is t e r f r o m w h a t M r – C o l o n e l M o u k a n g w e h a d
in f o r m e d m e
20

I th e n to o k t h e d o c k e t t o th e th e n Ac t in g E x e c u t iv e

D ir e c t o r M s K o e k ie M b e k i a n d i n f o r m e d h e r a b o u t t h e a p p r o a c h b y
C o l o n e l M o u k a n g w e a n d h a n d e d o v e r t h e d o c k e t t o h e r.

I f u r th e r

in f o r m e d h e r a b o u t th e e n g a g e m e n t e a r li e r – a y e a r e a r li e r b e tw e e n
m y s e l f a n d t h e f o r m e r E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r M r B e u k m a n a n d t h e f a c t t h a t
a t th a t p o i n t w e w e r e to ld t o h o l d o ff b y t h e M i n is t e r a n d t h a t I h a d i n
f a c t a p p o in t e d M r K h u b a t o l e a d t h a t in v e s t ig a ti o n . A f te r I h a d h a n d e d

Page 10 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
o v e r th e d o c k e t t o M s K o e k i e M b e k i a b o u t a w e e k la t e r M s M b e k i c a m e
b a c k t o m e w i t h t h e d o c k e t a n d i n d ic a te d t h a t I m u s t h a n d o v e r t h e
d o c k e t t o Mr K h u b a t o i n v e s t ig a te .
CHAIRPERSON: What – what was your understanding at that stage of
w h a t I P I D w a s r e q u ir e d to i n v e s t ig a t e ? W h a t w a s t h is r e n d it i o n ? W h a t
– w h a t – d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t e x a c tl y w a s b e i n g r e q u i r e d ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s . T h e is s u e o f t h e r e n d i ti o n w a s a l r e a d y
in t h e m e d i a a r o u n d t h a t p e r i o d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR

M AT T H E W S

SESOKO:

And

I

t h in k

there

was

a ls o

some

P a r li a m e n ta r y d i s c u s s io n a b o u t i t o r P a r l ia m e n t a r y q u e s ti o n t h a t w a s
a s k e d o f m e t h a t h a d t o b e r e s p o n d e d t o . S o w e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t th e
in v e s t i g a t io n

was

supposed

to

be

around

how

th e

Zimbabwean

N a t io n a l s w e r e r e n d i t io n e d t o Z i m b a b w e u n l a w f u l a n d w e r e l a te r
a l le g e d ly k il le d i n Z i m b a b w e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Is i t u s u a l f o r C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e t o c o n d u c t

a n in v e s ti g a t io n ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
20

N o i t is n o t u s u a l .

C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e b y

n a t u r e o f th e i r w o r k t h e y d o n o t c o n d u c t i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
in t e l li g e n c e

and

hand

over

the

product

of

t h e ir

T h e y g a th e r

in t e lli g e n c e

to

in v e s t i g a t o r s w h o t h e n c o n d u c t th e i n v e s t i g a t io n s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d M r S e s o k o y o u h a v e s u g g e s te d i n y o u r

s t a te m e n t th a t p e o p le a t C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e m a y h a v e h a d a c o n fl ic t o f
in t e r e s t . C o u l d y o u e x p l a i n th a t to t h e C h a ir ?

Page 11 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
MR

M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

I n t e lli g e n c e

th e m s e lv e s

W e ll t h e

were

–

in v o lv e d

th e
in

the

members
r e n d i ti o n

of Crime
or

the

a l le g a ti o n s o f r e n d it i o n . S o t h a t is w h y w e a r e s a y i n g t h a t t h e – th e y
m a y h a v e b e e n c o n fl ic t e d t h e m s e l v e s i n i n v e s t ig a ti n g t h is m a t te r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Then Mr Sesoko you say in your statement

t h a t y o u w e r e t o ld b y M r K h u b a t h a t M s M b e k i h a d i n s tr u c te d y o u t o
k e e p t h e – t o k e e p th is m a t t e r a w a y fr o m y o u a n d t o d e a l o n ly w i t h
C o l o n e l M o u k a n g w e a n d t o k e e p h is in v o l v e m e n t s e c r e t . C a n y o u j u s t
e x p l a i n th a t ?
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. W h a t h a d h a p p e n e d
w a s t h a t a s p e r u s u a l a s t h e N a ti o n a l H e a d o f I n v e s ti g a t i o n in a n
in v e s t i g a t io n o f t h is n a tu r e w h ic h i s a n a ti o n a l i n v e s t ig a ti o n I a m
o r d i n a r i ly i n v o lv e d in g u i d i n g th a t i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d a ll i n v e s ti g a t o r s
r e p o r t t o m e o n s u c h i n v e s ti g a ti o n s .
A n d w h e n I s p o k e to Mr K h u b a a b o u t t h i s is s u e tr y i n g to fi n d
o u t w h e r e – o r h o w f a r h e is o n t h e in v e s ti g a ti o n a f t e r t h e m a t t e r w a s
a l lo c a t e d t o h i m t h a t is w h e n h e m a d e m e a w a r e th a t h e h a d r e c e iv e d a
s p e c i f ic i n s tr u c ti o n t h a t I s h o u l d n o t b e in v o lv e d i n th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n
a n d t h a t h e s h o u l d r e p o r t d ir e c tl y t o M s M b e k i o n t h e – o n th e

20

in v e s t i g a t io n .
A n d t h e n – w h ic h w a s v e r y s t r a n g e to m e b e c a u s e t h a t is v e r y
u n u s u a l b e c a u s e I a m a lw a y s i n v o l v e d i n s u c h i n v e s t ig a t io n . H o w e v e r
b e c a u s e i t w a s a n i n s tr u c t io n fr o m m y s u p e r i o r I a d v is e d Mr K h u b a t h a t
h e m u s t c o m p ly w i t h th a t i n s tr u c t io n .
I d i d n o t u n d e r s ta n d w h y i t h a d t o b e th a t w a y a n d p a r tic u la r ly

Page 12 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
b e c a u s e I – I h a d a l w a y s b e l ie v e d t h a t I e n j o y e d a g o o d w o r k i n g
r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h M s M b e k i .

I did not understand why such an

in s t r u c t i o n w a s g iv e n t o Mr K h u b a .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Mr S e s o k o d i d y o u e v e r m e e t t h e p e o p l e w h o
w e r e in v o lv e d i n t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n w h o M r K h u b a w a s w o r k i n g w it h ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

That is correct.

T h e r e w a s a n o c c a s io n

w h e n Mr K h u b a a p p r o a c h e d m e a n d i n d ic a te d th a t h e i s u n c o m f o r ta b le
a b o u t t h e fa c t t h a t h e is th e o n ly p e r s o n w h o d e a ls w it h p e o p l e in v o lv e d
in t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n i n c l u d i n g t h e p r o s e c u to r s fr o m t h e N PA .
10

So he

w a n t e d m e t o k n o w w h o th e s e p e o p l e w e r e .
A s a r e s u lt o f t h a t h e th e n a r r a n g e d t h a t I m e e t w i th t h e m a n d
t h e n w e m e t w i t h t h e m a t a P e tr o P o r t G a r a g e o n t h e N 1 a n d th e n I w a s
a b l e t o m e e t th e n A d v o c a t e M u s i n a a n d A d v o c a te M o l e t s e a n d C o l o n e l
M o u k a n g w e w a s a ls o a p a r t o f th a t m e e ti n g . A n d b a s i c a ll y th e r e i s n o t
m u c h t h a t w e – w e d i s c u s s e d a t t h a t m e e ti n g e x c e p t f o r t h e m t o
in d i c a t e t h a t t h e y w e r e h a p p y in t h e w a y i n w h i c h M r K h u b a w a s
in v e s t i g a t in g th e – t h i s m a t t e r a n d th a t s in c e h i s i n v o l v e m e n t i n th e
in v e s t i g a t io n th e r e h a s b e e n a l o t o f p r o g r e s s in t h e in v e s ti g a t io n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u . W h a t w a s y o u r n e x t in v o lv e m e n t

20

w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

M y n e x t i n v o l v e m e n t w it h th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n

w a s a f t e r M r Mc B r i d e w a s a p p o i n t e d a s th e Ex e c u ti v e D ir e c to r t o I P I D .
U p o n h is a p p o i n t m e n t Mr M c Br i d e a s k e d t h a t w e b r ie f h i m o n a l l h ig h
p r o f il e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s t h a t w e w e r e c o n d u c t in g .
S o I b r ie f e d h i m o n t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n f o r in s ta n c e t h a t I w a s

Page 13 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
c o n d u c t in g a g a in s t t h e th e n N a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r o f P o lic e M s R i a h
P h iy e g a a – G e n e r a l P h iy e g a a n d K h u b a b r i e f e d h i m o n th e r e n d i ti o n
a n d t h e o t h e r i n v e s ti g a t o r s b r i e fe d h i m o n t h e C a t o M a n o r i n v e s t ig a ti o n
a n d s o f o r t h . A n d a f t e r th a t b r i e f w e t h e n h a d a n o t h e r m e e ti n g w h e r e
M r M c B r i d e h a d i n d ic a te d w h a t Mr K h u b a h a d i n f o r m e d h i m a b o u t w h a t
h a p p e n e d w i t h t h e in v e s ti g a t io n a n d t h e d i ffi c u l ti e s h e h a s h a d w h e n h e
w a s i n v e s ti g a ti n g t h i s m a tt e r.
A n d h e t h e n h e n c e f o r t h in s t r u c t e d t h a t I s h o u ld b e i n v o l v e d i n
t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a s I s h o u ld h a v e b e e n i n t h e f ir s t p l a c e a n d t h a t i s
10

w h e n I g o t i n v o lv e d a g a i n w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And…
CHAIRPERSON:
a g a in ?

L e t u s – I a m s o r r y – L e t u s ju s t g e t t h e t i m e l in e s

It w a s a r o u n d O c t o b e r o r s o m e t h in g in 2 0 11 w h e n y o u h e a r d

fr o m M r B e u k m a n t h a t t h e r e w a s a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n th a t th e M i n i s t e r
w a n t e d t o b e d o n e . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d th e n m o r e o r le s s a y e a r la p s e s w it h o u t

a n y th in g h a p p e n in g ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h a t w o u ld t a k e u s t o a r o u n d t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f

2012?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : 2 0 1 2 th a t i s c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d M r M c Br id e w a s a p p o i n t e d a r o u n d a b o u t –
w h e n w a s i t? 2 0 1 2 o r 2 0 1 3 o r y o u m i g h t n o t b e a b l e t o … ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t s a id t h e 4 t h M a r c h 2 0 1 4 .

Page 14 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : M a r c h 2 0 1 4 .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t w a s t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f M r Mc B r i d e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y.

N o w b e f o r e – w h e n Mr Mc B r id e w a s

a p p o i n t e d M r K h u b a w a s a lr e a d y b u s y w it h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n , is t h a t
r ig h t ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

M r K h u b a h a s b e g u n t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n a r o u n d a b o u t

w h e n i f y o u a r e a b le t o r e m e m b e r ?
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A s I h a v e i n d ic a te d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t – it w a s e n d o f 2 0 1 2 ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A r o u n d la t e 2 0 1 2 .
CHAIRPERSON: Late 2012.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
li n e s .

O k a y n o th a t is f in e .

I ju s t w a n t e d t o g e t th e t i m e

S o – s o la t e 2 0 1 2 M r – y o u – M r K h u b a g e ts a s s ig n e d t o t h i s

in v e s t i g a t io n a n d w h e n M r Mc B r i d e is a p p o in t e d i n 2 0 1 4 t h e r e is a
m e e ti n g w h e n a l l o f y o u b r i e f h i m o n h i g h p r o f il e m a t te r s ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. Yo u m a y c o n ti n u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u . I f w e c a n j u s t g o a li t tl e b i t b a c k
in t h e t i m e li n e j u s t b e f o r e M c Br id e w a s a p p o in t e d w e r e y o u i n v o l v e d in
t a k i n g w a r n i n g s ta t e m e n ts fr o m G e n e r a ls D r a m a t , S i b i y a a n d L e b e y a ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

I d i d n o t ta k e t h e s t a t e m e n ts .

What had

h a p p e n e d w a s t h a t C h a ir M r K h u b a h a d a p p r o a c h e d m e t o s a y t h a t h e

Page 15 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
n e e d e d to a p p r o a c h t h e G e n e r a ls D r a m a t, S i b iy a a n d I t h i n k a ls o
G e n e r a l L e b e y a t o i n te r v i e w t h e m a n d o b t a i n t h e ir s t a te m e n ts . B u t h e
f e l t u n c o m f o r t a b l e d o i n g i t o n h is o w n b e c a u s e o f t h e ir s e n i o r i ty s o h e
w a n t e d m e t o f a c il i ta t e t h a t .

I i n fo r m e d h i m t h a t b e c a u s e o f t h e

in s t r u c t i o n h e h a d h e n e e d e d t o g o to th e A c ti n g E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r a n d
g e t a p p r o v a l i f h e w a n te d m y a s s is t a n c e i n t h a t r e g a r d .

W h ic h Mr

K h u b a a n d h e a c c o r d i n g l y g o t a p p r o v a l i n w r i t in g fr o m t h e fo r m e r Ac t in g
E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r M s K o e k i e M b e k i t h a t I c a n a s s i s t i n fa c i li t a t i n g t h a t
w h ic h I a c c o r d i n g l y d i d . I fa c i li t a t e d t h e m e e ti n g w i t h G e n e r a l D r a m a t,
10

G e n e r a l S i b i y a a n d G e n e r a l L e b e y a a n d e v e n a c c o m p a n i e d h i m to a
m e e ti n g w i th G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l L e b e y a w h e r e h e h a d
in d i c a t e d t o t h e m t h a t h e n e e d e d t h e ir s t a te m e n ts a n d s o f o r t h a n d
w h ic h th e y – th e y s u b s e q u e n t ly p r o v i d e d t o h i m .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

N o w o n c e M r M c Br id e h a d

in s t r u c t e d y o u t o b e c o m e in v o lv e d i n t h i s in v e s ti g a t io n d i d y o u w o r k
w i t h Mr K h u b a t o p r e p a r e a r e p o r t ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And could you explain …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W h a t h a d h a p p e n e d …
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: What happened yes?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

W h a t h a d h a p p e n e d is t h a t u p o n M r

M c Br i d e i n d i c a t in g th a t I m u s t g e t in v o lv e d w it h th e c o m p le t io n o f th e
in v e s t i g a t io n b e c a u s e M r K h u b a h a d a lr e a d y in d ic a te d t o u s t h a t h e h a d
r e c e i v e d f u r t h e r e v id e n c e w h ic h h e n e e d e d to i n c lu d e t o t h e – i n t h e
d o c k e t a n d th e d o c k e t a t th a t p o i n t w a s a lr e a d y w it h t h e N PA a n d h e

Page 16 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
h a d w r i tt e n t o A d v o c a te M o s in g r e q u e s t i n g t h e d o c k e t s o t h a t h e c a n
a d d th e f u r th e r i n v e s t i – e v id e n c e t h a t h e h a d o b t a i n e d .
A n d t h e n Mc B r i d e t h e n s a i d w e c a n – M r K h u b a c a n p r o c e e d
a n d d o w h a t h e h a d in t e n d e d t o d o e v e n b e fo r e h e w a s a p p o i n t e d . A n d
M r K h u b a p r o c e e d e d to g e t t h e d o c k e t f r o m t h e N PA a n d t h e n a f te r h e
r e c e i v e d th e – t h e d o c k e t w e h a d m e t in m y o ff ic e t o d is c u s s t h e
e v i d e n c e t h a t h e h a d o b t a i n e d – f u r th e r e v i d e n c e t h a t h e o b t a i n e d
in c l u d i n g t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t w a s a lr e a d y t h e r e in t h e d o c k e t .

And we

lo o k e d a t th e e v i d e n c e – th e t o t a li ty o f t h e e v i d e n c e a n d w h a t c o u l d b e
10

s u s t a i n e d f o r c r i m in a l p r o s e c u t io n a n d w h a t c o u ld n o t b e s u s t a i n e d .
A n d o n th e b a s is …
CHAIRPERSON: Just – I am sorry – let m e interrupt you. At that stage
there was no report as such or was there a report that was – had
a lr e a d y b e e n p u t – g iv e n t o t h e N PA ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A s f a r a s …
CHAIRPERSON: As far as you remember?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C h a ir w h e n I – I e n g a g e d w i t h M r K h u b a a t
t h a t p o in t I w a s n o t a w a r e t h a t t h e r e w a s a r e p o r t t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d a lr e a d y b e e n s u b m it t e d ?

20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h a t h a d a lr e a d y b e e n s u b m i t t e d t o t h e

N PA .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I o n ly b e c a m e a w a r e l a t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, but …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I a m a w a r e t h a t M r K h u b a h a d a ll - a l w a y s

Page 17 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
done …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Va r i o u s r e p o r t s ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Va r i o u s p r o g r e s s r e p o r ts …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W h ic h r e p o r t s w o u ld g o to a ls o t h e M i n is t e r
o f P o li c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

In f a c t a t s o m e p o in t h e w o u ld e m a il m e a

r e p o r t . I r e m e m b e r a s p e c if ic r e p o r t t h a t h e e m a i le d m e r e q u e s t i n g t h a t
10

I tr a n s m i t it t o t h e S e c r e ta r y o f P o li c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

F o r o n w a r d tr a n s m is s io n to th e M in is t e r o f

P o lic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d y o u - y o u c e r ta i n ly a r e s p e a k in g a b o u t th o s e
in t e r i m r e p o r ts - p r o g r e s s r e p o r t s b e in g m a d e p r i o r t o M r Mc B r i d e
a s k in g y o u t o b e in v o lv e d ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr ig h t .

So - so there had been a number of

in t e r i m r e p o r ts - p r o g r e s s r e p o r ts ?
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h ic h h a d b e e n s e n t t o th e N PA a n d h a d b e e n

f o r w a r d e d t o th e S e c r e t a r y o f t h e P o li c e t o p a s s o n to t h e M i n is te r ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr i g h t .

Then you - you may proceed.

I

in t e r r u p t e d y o u w h e n y o u w e r e I t h i n k d e a l in g w i t h th e q u e s t i o n o f th e

Page 18 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
t w o o f y o u t h a t i s y o u r s e l f a n d Mr K h u b a lo o k i n g a t t h e d o c k e t …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

Because Mr Khuba said he had obtained other

e v i d e n c e . I th in k y o u c a n p r o c e e d f r o m t h e r e .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Ye s .

S o w e - w e l o o k e d a t t h e n t h e - th e

t o t a li ty o f th e e v i d e n c e th a t w a s th e r e . M r K h u b a w o u l d s i t o n m y - o n
m y d e s k a n d ty p e in t h e r e p o r t th a t w e w e r e w o r k i n g o n a n d t h e n a f t e r
w e h a v e a n a ly s e d t h e e v i d e n c e t h e n w e - w e c o n c l u d e d t h e r e p o r t a n d
b a s e d o n o u r a n a l y s i s o f t h e a v a i la b l e e v i d e n c e a t th e t i m e w e c a m e t o
10

t h e c o n c l u s i o n th a t t h e r e w a s n o t e n o u g h e v i d e n c e t o c o m e t o t h e
c o n c l u s i o n t h a t th e r e w a s a n y m is c o n d u c t o r a n y c r i m i n a li ty t h a t c a n b e
p r o v e n o n th e p a r t o f G e n e r a l S i b iy a a n d G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d t h a t is
e x a c tl y w h a t o u r r e p o r t r e c o m m e n d e d .
We

did

however

recommend

criminal

prosecution

and

d is c i p l i n a r y a c t io n a g a i n s t o n e C o l o n e l M a lu l e k e w h o w a s t h e a c ti v e
p l a y e r i n th e w h o le r e n d i ti o n s a g a .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h e r e d i d h e b e l o n g t o in te r ms o f s tr u c t u r e s ?

D i d h e - d i d h e b e l o n g t o C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e ?

D i d h e b e l o n g t o - is

there a unit to which he belonged?
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e a g a in s t w h o m y o u m a d e …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C o l o n e l M a l u l e k e w a s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : H e w a s a m e m b e r o f th e D P C I. T h e H a w k s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh he was a member of the Hawks?

Page 19 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f w h i c h G e n e r a l D r a m a t w a s t h e H e a d a t t h e ti m e ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : O f w h ic h G e n e r a l D r a m a t w a s th e H e a d a n d
G e n e r a l S i b i y a w a s th e P r o v i n c ia l H e a d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In G a u t e n g ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I n G a u t e n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d d i d G e n e r a l M a l u l e k e h a v e a n ic k n a m e

that you know of?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

C o lo n e l M a lu l e k e w a s c a ll e d C o w b o y.

He

w a s p o p u l a r k n o w n a s C o w b o y.
CHAIRPERSON: Cowboy?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C o w b o y y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : J u s t b e fo r e w e m o v e o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. O th e r w i s e w h a t w a s h is n a m e - h is … ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C o l o n e l M a l u l e k e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , d id h e h a v e a n a m e . T h a t is th e s u r n a m e .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : H m .
CHAIRPERSON: Or you do not know the surname?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

S o r r y, C h a ir I d o n o t - I d o n o t k n o w h is -

h is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 20 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r h is n a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u j u s t k n e w t h e …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : E v e r y o n e c a ll e d h i m C o w b o y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : B e c a u s e h e u s e d - h e w e a r s a c o w b o y h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o - s o t h a t is h o w e v e r y o n e id e n ti fi e d h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. A l r i g h t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : In p a r a g r a p h 1 7 i f y o u c a n ju s t g o b a c k to t h a t
10

f o r a - a m o m e n t . Yo u s a y o n 2 3 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 y o u r e c e i v e d a n i n t e r i m
r e p o r t b y M r K h u b a fo r o n w a r d tr a n s mi s s io n t o th e S e c r e ta r i a t o f t h e
P o lic e . C o u l d y o u ju s t e x p la i n t h a t ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t . As I h a v e i n d ic a t e d e a r l ie r
C h a ir t h a t t h a t w i ll b e o n e o f th o s e p r o g r e s s r e p o r ts t h a t M r K h u b a
u s e d t o s e n d to t h e N PA a n d a s w e l l a s t h e - t h e S e c r e ta r i a t .

So on

t h is o c c a s i o n h e h a d e m a i le d th is r e p o r t t o - t o m e w i th a r e q u e s t t h a t I
m u s t e n s u r e t h a t t h e r e p o r t is s u b m i t te d t o th e S e c r e ta r y o f P o l ic e f o r
o n w a r d t r a n s m i s s i o n t o t h e M i n i s t e r.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d d i d y o u c o n s id e r th e r e p o r t a t t h a t t i m e ?
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

No.

I

did

not

consider

the

report.

P a r t ic u l a r l y b e c a u s e o f t h e f a c t t h a t I w a s n o t s u p p o s e d to b e in v o lv e d
in t h e i n v e s t i g a t io n . S o w h e n I - I r e c e iv e d t h e e m a il I h a d th e - I - I
p r i n t e d o u t t h e r e p o r t a n d h a d i t s e n t to - t o t h e S e c r e ta r y o f P o li c e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Now

in

paragraph

22

you

say

on

1 8 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 y o u a n d Mr K h u b a fi n a l is e d y o u r r e p o r t . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?

Page 21 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th e n w a s t h a t s u b m it t e d to M r M c Br id e f o r
h is a p p r o v a l?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Th a t is c o r r e c t . T h is is i n li n e w i t h o u r o w n
s t a n d a r d o f v e t t in g p r o c e d u r e s a s w e ll a s o u r r e g u l a t i o n . S o o n c e w e we had concluded the - the report as the - the Supervisor to Mr Khuba I
h a d to q u a li ty c h e c k t h e r e p o r t a n d s i g n o ff o n t h e r e p o r t a n d t h e
E x e c u t iv e D i r e c t o r w i ll t h e n a p p r o v e t h e r e p o r t fo r s u b m is s io n t o t h e
N PA .
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h o a t t h e N PA w a s t h e r e p o r t s e n t t o ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

The report was sent to the former NDPP

M r N x a s a n a . W e h a d i n f a c t h a d a m e e t in g p r i o r to t h a t w i th t h e N D P P.
M y s e l f a n d t h e E x e c u tiv e D ir e c t o r M r M c Br i d e a n d s o m e o f th e
d is c u s s io n s i n th a t m e e ti n g w a s s u r r o u n d i n g t h is is s u e o f t h e r e n d i ti o n
a n d w e a s s u r e d h i m t h a t o n c e w e h a d c o n c l u d e d o n i t t h e n w e w i ll
f o r w a r d th e r e p o r t t o h i m w h ic h w e d i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n I t a k e y o u b a c k t o p a r a g r a p h 1 7 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t?
Yo u s a y :
“ O n 2 3 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 I r e c e iv e d a n i n te r i m r e p o r t
20

fr o m M r K h u b a v i a e m a il f o r o n w a r d tr a n s m is s i o n t o
t h e S e c r e t a r i a t o f P o lic e . B e c a u s e o f my e x c lu s i o n
fr o m t h e in v e s t i g a t io n I d id n o t c o n s id e r t h e r e p o r t .
H o w e v e r I h a v e s u b s e q u e n tly le a r n t th a t t h e r e p o r t
sent to me was an amended version of the report
w h ic h h a d - w h i c h h a d in i ti a l ly b e e n s e n t t o

Page 22 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
Advocate Mosing

recommending

that

G e n e r a ls S ib iy a a n d D r a m a t b e c h a r g e d .

both
However

a ft e r s e n d i n g t h is - t h i s r e p o r t t o A d v o c a te M o s i n g I
a m i n f o r m e d t h a t Mr K h u b a o b t a i n e d c e ll u la r p h o n e
e v i d e n c e w h ic h e x c l u d e d G e n e r a l S ib iy a a n d h e
accordingly

d e l e te d

h is

r e c o m m e n d a t io n

that

General Sibiya be charged.”
T h e r e y o u t a l k a b o u t t w o r e p o r ts .

One you get - you talk

a b o u t t h e i n t e r i m r e p o r t t h a t y o u g o t - r e c e i v e d fr o m M r K h u b a o n
10

2 3 J a n u a r y b u t y o u s a y t h a t r e p o r t - i f I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c t ly - w a s
a n a m e n d e d v e r s i o n o f a n e a r li e r r e p o r t t h a t M r K h u b a h a d s e n t to
A d v o c a t e M o s i n g . I s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g c o r r e c t s o fa r ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

I b e c a m e a w a r e o f th e - th e r e p o r t t h a t

M r K h u b a h a d s e n t to A d v o c a t e M o s in g o n l y in J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

After

the

M i n i s te r

had

suspended

G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d a f t e r t h e - t h e M i n is t e r h a d a t t h e ti m e w h e n h e 20

h e s u s p e n d e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t h a d i n d ic a t e d t h a t it w a s o n t h e b a s i s o f
t h e - t h e I P I D R e p o r t a n d - a n d i n J a n u a r y o r t h e - t h e M i n i s te r h a d
s a i d th a t i t w a s o n t h e b a s is o f t h e I P I D R e p o r t w h i c h t h e E x e c u t iv e
D ir e c t o r M r Mc B r id e h a d d i s p u t e d w h i c h w a s fa c t u a l ly c o r r e c t b e c a u s e
w e h a d n o t r e c o m m e n d e d a n y c r i m i n a l c h a r g e o r d is c ip li n a r y c h a r g e
a g a in s t G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d t h e n i n J a n u a r y t h e r e w a s t h e n a m e d i a

Page 23 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
in q u ir y

by

a

-

a

j o u r n a li s t

M z il ik a z i Wa A fr ik a

to

our

n a t io n a l

s p o k e s p e r s o n a n d h e th e n f o r w a r d e d t o h i m t h e la s t p a g e o f th e r e p o r t
w h ic h s h o w e d t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t G e n e r a ls D r a m a t a n d S i b i y a
must be - must be prosecuted and - and that report was signed by
M r K h u b a a n d t h a t w a s t h e f ir s t t i m e t h a t I b e c a m e a w a r e o f - o f s u c h
r e p o r t w h i c h I s u b s e q u e n tly c a ll e d Mr K h u b a t o a c c o u n t a b o u t t h e - t h e
report.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o - b u t y o u s a y t h a t w a s in J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 y e s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d h e r e in 2 7 - in - i n p a r a g r a p h 1 7 y o u r e f e r to

w h a t h a p p e n e d in J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 w h e n y o u r e c e iv e d t h a t i n t e r i m r e p o r t
fr o m M r K h u b a . Yo u s u r e t h a t is - t h e r e is n o m is t a k e ?

There was a

y e a r a f te r y o u r e c e iv e d t h a t i n t e r i m r e p o r t b e fo r e y o u b e c a m e a w a r e o f
that other …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s . H e n c e I s a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e p o r t.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I - I s a y i n t h e - i n t h e s ta t e m e n t t h a t I l a te r
became aware.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . N o I u n d e r s t a n d th a t . I a m j u s t w o n d e r i n g
20

w h y - w h y y o u w e r e n o t m a d e a w a r e f o r s u c h a lo n g p e r i o d o f - o f i t b u t
t h e r e m a y b e a n e x p l a n a ti o n . I t h o u g h t th a t b e c a u s e h e r e in p a r a g r a p h
1 7 a s I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g i s o n 2 3 J a n u a r y y o u r e c e iv e d a
r e p o r t - a n i n t e r i m r e p o r t fr o m M r K h u b a …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h e n y o u r e c e iv e d t h a t i n te r i m r e p o r t y o u s a y

Page 24 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
y o u s u b s e q u e n t ly le a r n t t h a t t h i s r e p o r t t h a t y o u w e r e r e c e i v i n g i n
January 2014 was an amended version …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : H u h - u h .
CHAIRPERSON:

Of

a

report

that

had

been

sent

a lr e a d y

to

A d v o c a t e M o s i n g r e c o m m e n d i n g t h a t G e n e r a ls S i b i y a a n d D r a m a t b e
charged.

When

you

say

s u b s e q u e n tly

are

you

r e f e r r in g

to

January 2015?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s . I a m r e f e r r i n g t o J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W h e n I fi r s t b e c a m e a w a r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t th e r e w a s n o w th is r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a ll t h is t i m e y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

A ll t h is t i m e b o t h m y s e lf a n d M r Mc B r i d e

were not aware.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u - y o u w e r e a w a r e t h a t Mr K h u b a h a d s e n t

some …
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o m e p r o g r e s s r e p o r ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e p o r ts ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

But you were not aware of what the - the content of

t h o s e r e p o r t s a t th a t ti m e ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Ye s .

W e w e r e n o t a w a r e th a t t h e r e w a s a

Page 25 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
report …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t r e c o m m e n d e d
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S i b iy a

must be …
CHAIRPERSON: Be charged?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : M u s t b e c h a r g e d .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

N o w t h i s i n te r i m r e p o r t t h a t y o u w e r e r e c e iv i n g fr o m

M r K h u b a y o u r e c e i v e d fr o m M r K h u b a i n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : H u h - u h .
CHAIRPERSON:

I u n d e r s ta n d fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 7 t h a t it w a s - i t w a s

s a y in g t h a t G e n e r a l S i b i y a s h o u l d n o t b e c h a r g e d . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u d o n o t a t th a t s t a g e s a y a n y t h i n g a b o u t w h a t
it m a y h a v e s a i d a b o u t G e n e r a l D r a m a t . D id … ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h e - th e r e p o r t …
CHAIRPERSON: That report.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Th a t r e p o r t a s I s a i d s u b s e q u e n t ly w e h a v e
le a r n t t h a t r e p o r t t h e - t h e i n te r i m r e p o r t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

D id r e c o m m e n d th a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t b e

charged …

Page 26 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. S o th is …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : B u t it e x c l u d e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : G e n e r a l S i b iy a ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h a t is th e i n te r i m r e p o r t i t e x c l u d e d

General Sibiya.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. S o - s o a s f a r a s y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d in
J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 a f t e r r e c e iv i n g t h is i n t e r i m r e p o r t th e u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s
the report says General Sibiya should not be charged but as far as
General Dramat was concerned it was saying he should be charged?
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t w a s w h a t t h e r e p o r t w a s s a y in g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t t h e r e p o r t w a s s a y in g ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y,

but

what

you

are

saying

is

l a te r

in

January 2015 you discovered that there had been another report which
y o u a r e s a y in g b o t h o f t h e m s h o u ld b e c h a r g e d ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. N o t h a n k y o u . I u n d e r s t a n d n o w.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
has
20

put

to

you

when

T h a n k y o u a n d j u s t t o c l a r i fy w h a t t h e C h a ir
you

r e c e iv e d

th e

report

of

January

-

2 3 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 y o u d i d n o t r e a d th a t r e p o r t?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h a t - t h a t i s r ig h t .

I d id n o t e n g a g e w i t h

the report.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

S o i t w a s j u s t fo r m e t o - to p a s s i t o v e r.

S o a l l th e s e f a c ts b e - b e c a m e c l e a r e r t o m e w h e n i n J a n u a r y t h e s e

Page 27 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
is s u e s s t a r te d b e i n g r a is e d .

T h e n w e - w e s ta r t e d e n g a g i n g w it h a l l

t h e s e is s u e s . T h e n r e a li s e d t h a t a c t u a ll y t h e r e a r e t h e s e r e p o r ts t h a t
a r e - a r e c o n t r a d i c ti n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : ( I n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y, a l r i g h t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Mr S e s o k o i f w e c a n ju s t d e a l w i t h t h e e v e n ts
that happened before January 2015 when you found out about this
o th e r r e p o r t s i g n e d b y M r K h u b a . C o u l d y o u e x p l a i n w h a t t h e r e fe r e n c e
10

g r o u p w a s t h a t y o u r e f e r t o in p a r a g r a p h 2 4 a n d w h a t d e a l in g s y o u h a d
w i t h t h is g r o u p ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y M s W e n tz e l .

Yo u m ig h t h a v e d e a l t w i t h

t h is b u t I a m n o t s u r e . O h I t h i n k y o u d i d b u t I - I t h i n k I w a s f o c u s in g
o n s o m e th i n g e ls e .

Yo u d id r e f e r t o p a r a g r a p h 2 2 .

Paragraph 22

M r S e s o k o s a y s th a t :
“ O n 1 8 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 y o u a n d M r K h u b a fi n a li s e d a
r e p o r t w h ic h s a i d t h a t - w h i c h r e c o m m e n d e d th a t n o
charges

be

brought against

General Dramat or

G e n e r a l S i b i y a a s th e r e w a s n o c r e d i b l e e v id e n c e to
20

s u p p o r t a n y c h a r g e s a g a in s t t h e m w h ic h w a s s e n t t o
M r Mc B r i d e

and

Mr M c B r i d e

made

some

g r a m m a t ic a l c h a n g e s a n d a f te r h e h a d c o r r e c t e d i t
Mr Khuba

and

I

signed

the

report

and

then

r e s u b m it t e d i t t o M r Mc B r i d e f o r h i s a p p r o v a l . ”
M y q u e s ti o n is a s y o u w e r e w o r k i n g o n th is r e p o r t t o g e th e r n o w.

Page 28 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n

T h a t i s y o u r s e l f a n d M r K h u b a a n d m a k i n g t h is
th a t G e n e r a ls S i b iy a

and

D r a m a t s h o u ld

c h a r g e d b e c a u s e th e r e is n o c r e d ib l e e v id e n c e .

not be

D id M r K h u b a n o t

m e n ti o n to y o u t h a t y o u k n o w e a r li e r o n I h a d s e n t a r e p o r t w h ic h s a id
both of them must be charged?

N o w - n o w I a m c o n v in c e d th a t t h e y

s h o u l d n o t b e c h a r g e d . D i d h e n o t m e n t io n t h a t?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

N o , n o , n o . H e d i d n o t m e n ti o n th a t t h e r e

was such a report that was sent to …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e N PA ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To A d v o c a t e M o s i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

H o w e v e r w e d id d i s c u s s t h e - t h e is s u e o f

whether there is evidence that can sustain the charging of these
G e n e r a ls .

T h a t w a s p a r t o f th e - o f t h e d is c u s s i o n s I h a d w i t h

M r K h u b a w h e n w e w e r e e v a l u a t i n g t h e e v i d e n c e a n d a t th e e n d w e
c a m e t o t h e c o n c l u s i o n th a t t h e r e w a s n o t s u c h .
F o r i n s t a n c e s o m e o f th e i s s u e s w e d is c u s s e d w a s th e is s u e
o f t h e c h a r g in g o f - o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d h is in i ti a l v i e w t h a t
20

G e n e r a l D r a m a t m u s t b e c h a r g e d a n d w h a t th e b a s is t h e r e o f w a s w h i c h
in o u r d i s c u s s io n b e c a m e c l e a r th a t i t w a s a b a s i s o f a w i tn e s s
s t a te m e n t w h ic h a f t e r h e h i ms e l f h a d e n g a g e d a n e x p e r t to d o a n
a n a ly s is o f t h e s t a t e m e n t .
T h e r e p o r t c a m e w i th t h e c o n c lu s i o n th a t t h a t s t a t e m e n t w a s
d e c e p ti v e b e c a u s e th e - t h e w i t n e s s h a d - h a d a lr e a d y p a s s e d o n a t t h e

Page 29 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
ti m e . S o th e s e a r e t h e d is c u s s i o n s t h a t w e h a d a n d b a s e d o n t h a t w e
s a i d b u t g iv e n t h e e v id e n c e t h a t w e h a v e a n d o t h e r w i t n e s s s t a te m e n t
w h ic h a r e n o t s u s ta i n e d t h e c h a r g e a g a in s t G e n e r a l S ib iy a . I m e a n - I
mean General Dramat …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W h ic h c o n c l u s io n w e - w e p u t i n o u r r e p o r t
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t w e b o t h s i g n e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . L a t e r o n - l a te r o n - a y e a r l a t e r o r s o w h e n y o u
h e a r d a b o u t th is e a r li e r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t - a b o u t t h e r e p o r t t h a t
had said both of them must be charged.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d i t s u r p r is e y o u t h a t M r K h u b a h a d n o t m e n ti o n e d
t h is t o y o u w h e n y o u w e r e w o r k i n g o n t h e fi n a l r e p o r t a n d s a y in g t h e s e
two should not be charged? That he did not say you know by the way I
h a d m a d e a n e a r l ie r r e p o r t w h e r e I h a d b e e n c o n v in c e d t h a t th e y
s h o u l d b e c h a r g e d a n d I h a d r e c o m m e n d e d th a t t h e y - th e y s h o u l d b e
c h a r g e d b u t n o w I t h i n k t h a t t h e r e i s f u r th e r e v id e n c e a n d t h e y s h o u l d

20

not be charged.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C h a ir i n d e e d I w a s s u r p r is e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I - w h e n - w h e n w e g e t - w e g o t t h a t m e d i a
in q u ir y w e e v e n s u s p e c te d t h a t th e - t h e s i g n a t u r e o f Mr K h u b a …
CHAIRPERSON: Had been forged?

Page 30 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : H a d b e e n fo r g e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u d i d n o t b e li e v e i t ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o I i m m e d ia t e ly c a l l e d Mr K h u b a a n d s a i d
w e h a v e j u s t r e c e iv e d t h is th in g fr o m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e m e d ia ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
( in d is ti n c t) .
10

T h e m e d i a - S u n d a y Ti m e s a n d j o u r n a l is t

T h e r e i s a r e p o r t th a t i s s i g n e d b y y o u s a y i n g th is a n d

M r K h u b a c o u l d n o t i m m e d ia t e l y r e m e m b e r t h a t b u t w h e n I - w h a t I s a i d
t o h i m w a s t h a t y o u - y o u n e e d t o c o m e t o - t o H e a d O ffi c e s o th a t w e
d is c u s s th is b e c a u s e it is d i ff e r e n t fr o m w h a t w e - w e …
CHAIRPERSON: What we recommended?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

We have - we have recommended and I

asked him go back to your records …
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d c h e c k …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
20

What - what happened in this regard and

t h e n i n d e e d h e c a m e t o - t o H e a d O ff ic e a n d w h e n h e c a m e h e h a d
a lr e a d y g o n e t o h is r e c o r d s a n d th e n - th e n h e r e m e m b e r e d w h a t h a d
h a p p e n e d a n d t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s s u r r o u n d i n g t h e s e n d i n g o f t h a t r e p o r t
t o A d v o c a t e M o s in g a n d th e n h e e x p l a i n e d t o - t o m y s e l f a n d - a n d
M c Br i d e t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s s u r r o u n d i n g t h i s r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I - I d o n o t k n o w b u t i t d o e s n o t s e e m t o m e l ik e

Page 31 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
s o m e t h i n g y o u s h o u ld f o r g e t h a v i n g - h a v in g d o n e .

I know that you

m i g h t n o t b e a b l e t o c o m m e n t a n d M r K h u b a w i ll g iv e e v id e n c e la t e r. I
a m j u s t t h in k i n g t h a t i t w il l b e s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u c o u l d e a s ily
r e m e m b e r t h a t y e s I - I d i d s e n d a n e a r l ie r r e p o r t w h e r e I r e c o m m e n d e d
t h a t th e y b e c h a r g e d b u t th a t w a s t h e o n l y b a s i s o f t h e e v i d e n c e th a t
w a s a v a il a b l e th e n a n d s o o n .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

C h a ir fr o m m y r e c o ll e c t io n i n te r m s o f m y

d is c u s s io n w i t h M r K h u b a b e c a u s e h e h a s - h e h a s b e e n s e n d i n g a l o t
o f r e p o r ts t o b o t h t h e - t h e N PA a n d t h e S e c r e ta r i a t h is p r o g r e s s r e p o r t
10

w h a t h e d i d n o t r e c a ll w a s t h a t t h e - t h e r e w a s a r e p o r t w h ic h h e s ig n e d
w h e r e h e m a d e s p e c i fi c a ll y th o s e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s t h a t b o t h S i b iy a
and Dramat should be charged.
S o th a t is t h e - th e e x p l a n a ti o n h e - h e g a v e t o - t o u s .

In

r e l a ti o n t o th e is s u e o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t I m e a n a s I s a i d th a t i n o u r
d is c u s s io n t h a t c a m e u p a n d t h e - t h e is s u e o f t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n th a t
he be charged and which we discussed based on the further evidence
t h a t h e h a s o b ta in e d a n d w h e th e r h e c a n s u s t a i n a - a c r i m i n a l c h a r g e
a g a in s t G e n e r a l S i b i y a w h ic h h e c a m e t o t h e c o n c l u s io n t h a t h e c o u l d
not.
20

S o - s o a s t o h o w a t t h e ti m e h e c o u ld n o t r e m e m b e r t h e
s ig n e d r e p o r t to - to G e n e r a l - t o A d v o c a t e M o s i n g .

I t h in k Mr K h u b a

w o u ld b e a b l e to e x p l a in .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o . I - I u n d e r s t a n d . Ye s Ms W e n tz e l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Mr Sesoko if we can go to paragraph 24 on

page 6 of the bundle?

Page 32 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : J a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Could you just explain the reference group

a n d th e d e a li n g s t h a t y o u h a d w i t h t h is r e f e r e n c e g r o u p ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Chair what had happened was around

N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 M r M c Br i d e c a ll e d u s in t o a m e e ti n g t o s a y t h e p e o p l e
fr o m t h e M in is tr y - r e f e r e n c e g r o u p th a t w a s a p p o i n te d t o th e M i n i s t r y
t h a t w a n t e d to h a v e a m e e ti n g w i th u s . I n th e m e e ti n g i t w a s m y s e lf ,
M r K h u b a a n d Mr M c Br i d e a n d t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e r e f e r e n c e g r o u p .
O n e o f w h o m is A d v o c a t e M a th e n j w a o f t h e N PA . T h e r e a r e
10

o th e r - th e r e w e r e o t h e r t w o o r th r e e m e m b e r s .
t h e ir n a m e s .

T h e r e w a s a W h i t e l a d y.

I cannot remember

I cannot remember her name

a n d th e n i n th e m e e t i n g t h e y i n d ic a te d t o u s th a t t h e y w e r e a p p o i n t e d
b y th e M i n is t e r o f - o f P o l ic e M in is t e r N a t h i N h le k o a t th e ti m e .
N a t h i N h l e k o a t t h e ti m e t o lo o k a t i s s u e s w it h in t h e S A P S
a n d th e d is c u s s i o n s u r r o u n d e d a ls o o r m a i n ly th e - t h e r e n d i t io n
in v e s t i g a t io n th a t w e c o n d u c te d a n d th e n w e b r ie f e d t h e m a b o u t th e
r e n d i ti o n i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d h o w w e c a m e t o t h e c o n c l u s i o n t h a t w e - w e
c a m e to a n d t h e n a f te r t h a t m e e t i n g I t h in k it w a s a d a y o r s o la t e r
M r K h u b a i n f o r m e d m e t h a t h e w a s c a ll e d b y A d v o c a t e M a t h e n jw a
20

r e q u e s t in g t h e r e n d i ti o n d o c k e t to w h ic h M r K h u b a r e f e r r e d h i m to t h e
E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r M r Mc B r i d e t h a t h e m u s t r e q u e s t t h e d o c k e t fr o m
M r Mc B r i d e a n d fr o m w h a t I l e a r n t fr o m M r K h u b a th e n Mr M a t h e n j w a
s a i d n o I w il l f in d i t b y o t h e r w a y s a n d a fe w d a y s l a te r w e t h e n
r e c e i v e d a le t t e r fr o m t h e M i n is t e r o f P o lic e M r N a th i N h le k o r e q u e s ti n g
t h e - t h e r e n d i ti o n d o c k e t .

Page 33 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
T h e l e t t e r w a s r e c e i v e d b y t h e E x e c u tiv e D ir e c t o r o f c o u r s e .
T h e n h e c a ll e d m e i n to a m e e ti n g w i t h h i m a n d i n f o r m e d m e t h a t h e j u s t
r e c e i v e d t h is le t t e r fr o m t h e M in is t e r a n d a s k e d f o r m y a d v ic e . I r e a d
t h e l e t te r a n d I i n d ic a t e d t o M r M c Br id e th a t i t is n o t a p p r o p r i a te fo r t h e
M i n is t e r to a s k f o r a - f o r a d o c k e t o f o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n b u t h o w e v e r a t
t h e ti m e w e d i d n o t k n o w th e i n t e n t io n s .
S o I a d v i s e d Mr M c B r i d e t h a t m a y b e t h e M i n is t e r w a n ts to d o
t h e r ig h t th in g i n r e l a ti o n t o t h is i s s u e . S o d i p l o m a ti c a ll y l e t u s w r i t e t o
h i m i n d ic a ti n g th a t in f a c t h e is n o t s u p p o s e d to h a v e t h is b u t w e
10

b e li e v e

you

w ill

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s .

do

the

r ig h t

thing

with

t h is

docket

and

th e

So I packaged the - the copies of docket and the

r e p o r t t h a t w e h a d a l r e a d y s e n t t o th e N PA a n d th e l e t te r.
I a d v is e d o n th e l e tt e r w i t h t h e - th e Ex e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r a n d
w e s e n t th e l e t te r w it h th e - t h e d o c k e t t o t h e M i n i s te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is w a s n o w a r o u n d w h a t t i m e ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t w a s a r o u n d N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L o n g a f te r th e r e p o r t th a t y o u a n d M r K h u b a p r e p a r e d
t o g e th e r h a d b e e n s e n t t o t h e M in is t e r - t o - t o …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To N PA .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : N PA ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - a n d w o u ld i t a ls o h a v e b e e n s e n t t o t h e P o l ic e
S e c r e t a r i a t o r o n l y t o t h e N PA ?

Page 34 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : N o w e o n ly s e n t to t h e N PA .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y a n d - a n d h e - h e d i d n o t w a n t a r e p o r t o r
a p r o g r e s s r e p o r t o r a n y th in g ? H e w a n t e d t h e e n t ir e d o c k e t ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : H e w a n te d th e e n t ir e d o c k e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : H e w a n te d th e e n t ir e d o c k e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h e l e t t e r w a s v e r y c l e a r t h a t h e w a n t e d th e
e n t ir e d o c k e t .
10

I n f a c t if m y r e c o ll e c ti o n s e r v e s m e w e l l th e y e v e n

m is w r o te t h e - th e d o c k e t r e fe r e n c e n u m b e r t h e r e b u t w e w e r e a w a r e
t h a t th e y - t h e y w e r e r e fe r r i n g s p e c i fic a lly t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e r e n d i ti o n f il e ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To t h is d o c k e t . W e - I t h in k i t w a s j u s t a an error …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W h e n t h e y m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o - to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To t h e d o c k e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Mr Sesoko can you explain - you make

r e fe r e n c e to i t i n p a r a g r a p h 2 7 w h a t h a p p e n e d a m o n t h l a te r in
December 2014?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o C h a ir i n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 G e n e r a l D r a m a t
w a s s u s p e n d e d b y t h e M i n i s t e r. I a c t u a l ly s a w t h a t o n th e n e w s a n d t o
- to o u r s u r p r i s e t h e M in is t e r h a s i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e s u s p e n s i o n o f

Page 35 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
G e n e r a l D r a m a t w a s o n t h e b a s i s o f th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n a n d r e p o r t b y
IPID.

I t to o k u s b y s u r p r i s e b e c a u s e o u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n d i d n o t

r e c o m m e n d a n y a c t io n a g a in s t G e n e r a l D r a m a t .
N o w w h e n th e E x e c u tiv e D ir e c to r w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y t h e
m e d i a t o r e s p o n d t o t h is is s u e t h e n h e i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e I P I D r e p o r t
d i d n o t r e c o m m e n d a n y a c t i o n a g a i n s t G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d I t h i n k t h a t’s
w h e n n o w t h e c o n fl ic t b e t w e e n t h e Ex e c u t iv e D i r e c t o r a n d th e M i n is t e r
s t a r t e d b e c a u s e t h a t ’s n o w w h e n in J a n u a r y w e w e r e th e n c o n fr o n te d
w i t h th is o t h e r r e p o r t w h ic h M r K u w e h a d s ig n e d , w h ic h r e p o r t w a s s e n t
10

t o A d v o c a t e M u s i fr o m w h a t M r K h u b a t o ld u s , s o a s f a r a s w e w e r e
c o n c e r n e d t h e o n ly r e p o r t t h a t w e n t t o th e m i n i s te r is t h e r e p o r t w h e r e
w e e x o n e r a t e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S i b iy a .
S o w e d o n ’ t k n o w h o w t h e M in is t e r w o u l d h a v e g o t t h is r e p o r t
fr o m Mr K h u b a e x c e p t o f c o u r s e i f h e h a d i n t e r a c te d w it h A d v o c a t e
Musi.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Mr Sesoko when – do you remember when

M c Br i d e w a s th e n s u s p e n d e d i s i t c o r r e c t i ts M a r c h 2 0 1 5 ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t r M c Br id e w a s s u s p e n d e d i n

March 2015.
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h o w a s a p p o i n t e d t o a c t in h is

p l a c e … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m s o r r y M s W e n tz e l , s o G e n e r a l D r a m a t w a s

suspended in December 2014?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

A n d t h e f o l lo w i n g m o n t h , n a m e ly J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 Mr

Page 36 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M c Br i d e w a s a ls o s u s p e n d e d ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

No in March.

In March oh okay thank you, yes.

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

A n d u p o n t h e M c Br id e s u s p e n s i o n b y t h e

M i n is t e r, M r K g a m a n y a n e w h o w a s t h e Pr o v i n c i a l H e a d f o r Fr e e S t a t e
a n d w a s r e p o r t in g to m e , w a s a p p o i n t e d t o a c t a d t h e E x e c u t iv e
D ir e c t o r o f I P I D .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o , I t h i n k y o u s a i d e a r l ie r o n t h a t i m m e d ia t e l y b e lo w

t h e p o s i ti o n o f E x e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r o f I P I D , t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f
10

p o s i ti o n s o c c u p i e d b y v a r i o u s p e o p l e i n c l u d i n g y o u r s e l f?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

T h o s e w o u ld b e th e p e o p le , i m m e d i a t e l y b e l o w th e

E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

That is correct.

I n o u r s tr u c t u r e w e c a ll

them Programme Managers.
CHAIRPERSON:

Pr o g r a m m e M a n a g e r s ?

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

W o u l d t h a t a p p ly t o y o u a s w e ll , th e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ye s I’ m p a r t o f th e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

O h y o u a r e p a r t o f th a t y e s , a n d t h a t ’s a b o u t h o w

many people?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Fo u r p e o p l e ?

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

I t is f o u r p e o p l e .

Ye s .

Ye s s o n o n e o f t h e s e p e o p l e … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .

Page 37 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

N o a c t u a lly – s o r r y C h a ir i t ’s fi v e p e o p le

in c l u d i n g t h e C F O .
CHAIRPERSON:

Fiv e p e o p l e i n c lu d i n g th e C F O ?

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o o u t o f t h e s e f iv e p e o p le i m m e d i a te ly b e lo w th e

E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r n o n e o f th e m w a s a p p o in t e d t o a c t i n t h e p o s it i o n o f
E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s a p p o in t e d t o a c t in t h e

p o s i ti o n o f D ir e c to r w a s h e o n t h e n e x t l e v e l , b e l o w t h e l e v e l o f
Programme Managers?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t , i n t e r m s o f le v e ls in t h e

P u b l ic S e r v ic e w e a r e a ll o n t h e s a m e l e v e l a s C h i e f D ir e c to r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

H o w e v e r, i n t e r m s o f th e s tr u c t u r e o f th e

o r g a n i s a t io n w e a r e E x e c u tiv e M a n a g e m e n t a s Pr o g r a m m e M a n a g e r s
a n d t h e n y o u t h e n h a v e t h e P r o v i n c ia l H e a d s t h a t r u n t h e p r o v i n c e s a n d
t h e d e le g a ti o n t o m e b y t h e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r w a s t h a t I m u s t
s u p e r v i s e a l l th e Pr o v i n c i a l H e a d s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , d o e s w h a t y o u h a v e ju s t s a id m e a n t h a t a

P r o v i n c ia l H e a d is a ls o a t t h e l e v e l o f C h i e f D ir e c t o r ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y s o i n te r m s o f P u b l ic S e r v ic e y o u m ig h t a l l b e

o n t h e s a m e l e v e l , b u t i n t e r m s o f t h e s tr u c t u r e o f I P I D , y o u a r e n o t o n
t h e s a m e le v e l a s a P r o v i n c ia l H e a d ?

Page 38 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w e a r e h i g h e r.

J a y o u a r e h ig h e r a n d P r o v i n c i a l H e a d s r e p o r t to

you?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o y o u – fr o m t h a t p o i n t o f v i e w, t h o s e w h o a r e o n

Programme Managers are superiors to those who are Provincial Heads?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

Ye s , s o t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s a p p o i n t e d to a c t w a s a t

P r o v i n c ia l H e a d le v e l ?
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

So

about

f iv e

people

who

could

have

b e e n … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

J a p o te n ti a l ly b e e n – w e r e i g n o r e d ?

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

P o t e n t i a ll y b e e n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r. A f t e r Mr K g a m a n y a n e w a s

a p p o i n t e d , w h a t th e n h a p p e n e d ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
20

I m m e d i a te ly u p o n h is a p p o i n t m e n t a s t h e

E x e c u t iv e – a c ti n g E x e c u tiv e D ir e c t o r, M r K g a m a n y a n e t h e n in s tr u c te d
m y s e l f a n d M r K h u b a t o a t t e n d t o a n i n te r v i e w w i t h W e r k s m a n s
A t t o r n e y s w h ic h t h e M i n is t e r h a d a p p o in t e d t o in v e s ti g a t e in o u r
s t a n d in g – i n o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g th e i s s u e s s u r r o u n d i n g th e tw o r e p o r ts .
W h a t – i t ’s n o w k n o w n a s th e s o - c a ll e d f ir s t a n d s e c o n d r e p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o f c o u r s e t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t b e in g th e fi n a l o n e ?

Page 39 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a n d M r K h u b a p u t t o g e t h e r ?

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A n d t h e s o - c a l le d fir s t r e p o r t b e i n g t h e o n e w h e r e M r

– w h ic h M r K h u b a d i d b y h i m s e l f w h e r e h e r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t b o th
General Dramat and General Sibiya be charged?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A n d d i d y o u a t te n d a n i n te r v i e w a t

Werksmans Attorneys?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Ye s C h a ir I d i d , b e c a u s e i t w a s a n

in s t r u c t i o n fr o m m y s u p e r i o r a n d u p o n a t t e n d i n g th a t i n te r v i e w w h ic h
w a s l e d b y a n a t t o r n e y fr o m W e r k s m a n s M r S a n d i le J u ly I s p e c i f ic a l ly
e n q u ir e d b e f o r e w e e v e n s t a r te d t h e i n t e r v ie w w h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e
in t e r v ie w i s a n d w h e th e r, a m I b e i n g in v e s t ig a t e d f o r a n y w r o n g d o i n g ,
w h e t h e r i t b e c r i m i n a l o r m i s c o n d u c t t o w h ic h M r J u ly a n d h is t e a m
in d i c a t e d t h a t i t w a s n o t t h e p u r p o s e o f th e i n te r v i e w, t h e p u r p o s e w a s
s i m p l y f o r t h e M i n is te r t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s s u r r o u n d i n g
t h e s e t w o r e p o r ts . I t h e n a g r e e d t o p a r ti c i p a t e i n th a t i n t e r v ie w o n
20

those basis.
CHAIRPERSON:
t h is fo r m e .

W e l l b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d M r S e s o k o , p l e a s e c l a r i fy

T h e M in is t e r h a d tw o r e p o r t s , t h e o n e w h e r e w e c a l l f o r

c o n v e n i e n c e , t h e fir s t r e p o r t , t h e o t h e r o n e b e i n g t h e s e c o n d o r f in a l
r e p o r t a n d o f c o u r s e t h e o n e t h a t w e c a l l t h e fir s t r e p o r t b a s e d o n w h a t
y o u h a v e t o l d m e , m ig h t n o t r e a ll y h a v e b e e n t h e fir s t r e p o r t b e c a u s e

Page 40 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
t h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f r e p o r ts b u t i t ’s th e o n e w h e r e Mr K h u b a
r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l Si b iy a b e c h a r g e d .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

H a d t h e M in is t e r s e n t – a s k e d y o u th r o u g h w h a t e v e r

c h a n n e l s , th r o u g h th e E x e c u tiv e D ir e c to r o r t h r o u g h w h o e v e r, b e fo r e
a s k in g a L a w F ir m t o i n v e s t ig a t e , a s k y o u to e x p l a in w h a t h e d i d n o t
u n d e r s t a n d , d id h e a s k y o u t o e x p la i n w h a t h e d i d n o t u n d e r s ta n d w h ic h
seems to have been one report saying General Dramat and General
S i b iy a s h o u l d b e c h a r g e d a n d a n o th e r o n e s a y in g t h e y s h o u l d n o t b e
10

charged?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

C h a ir y o u s e e e x a c t ly w h i le y o u a r e s a y i n g

t h a t ’s w h a t’s s u r p r is in g t o u s b e c a u s e w e w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t th e
M i n is t e r w o u l d h a v e a p p r o a c h e d t h e E x e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r a s a p e r s o n
r e p o r t in g d ir e c t ly to h i m t o r e p o r t – t o e x p l a i n t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s
s u r r o u n d in g t h i s r e p o r t . I n o u r v ie w, th e r e w a s n o n e e d to e v e n a p p o i n t
a L a w Fir m t o in v e s t i g a t e th is i s s u e .

T h is w a s a s i m p l e o p e r a t i o n a l

is s u e t h a t c o u l d h a v e b e e n e x p l a i n e d p r o p e r l y t o th e M i n is t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
20

T h a t is w h y la t e r b e c a u s e o f t h e e v e n ts

t h a t h a p p e n e d i t b e c a m e c le a r t o u s w h a t t h e in t e n t i o n w a s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e I - I m e a n I g r a p p le d w it h t h i s q u i te a l o t

w h e n Mr M c B r i d e w a s g i v i n g e v i d e n c e a n d o f c o u r s e h e w a s th e fir s t
w i t n e s s t o d e a l w i th i t o t h e r t h a n w h a t o n e h a s r e a d in t h e m e d i a in t h e
p a s t. I w o u l d h a v e th o u g h t th e fir s t t h i n g y o u d o i f p e o p l e u n d e r y o u o r
u n d e r a s tr u c t u r e t h a t ’s u n d e r y o u , i f th e y h a v e d o n e s o m e t h i n g th a t

Page 41 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
y o u d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d is fir s t t h i n g is a s k t h e m t o e x p l a in t o y o u a n d i f
t h e ir e x p l a n a t io n is n o t s a ti s fa c t o r y th e n m a y b e y o u c a n t a k e – c a n
m a k e c e r t a i n d e c is io n s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

And I don’t understand why it was not done.

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
t h is

is s u e

was

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r a n d … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

handled

E x a c t ly t h a t is w h y w e w e r e p u z z l e d h o w
even

the

fact that

th e

a p p o in t m e n t o f

W e r k s m a n s a n d t h a t u s , a s e m p lo y e e s o f I P I D m u s t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

M u s t g o t to a L a w Fir m .

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

G o t o a L a w Fi r m a n d d is c u s s th is th i n g , I

m e a n , Mr K h u b a w il l te s ti fy a b o u t t h is t h a t h e w a s a p p r o a c h e d d ir e c tly
b y, fir s t t h e l a w y e r f r o m t h e L a w Fir m w i t h o u t e n g a g i n g t h e D e p a r t m e n t
in t e r n a ll y t o s a y, w e ’v e b e e n a p p o i n t e d w e w a n t y o u t o c o m e b e f o r e u s .
N o r m a l ly w h e n M r K h u b a r e fu s e d t o c o o p e r a t e w i t h t h e m a n d i n f o r m e d
them I am

h is s u p e r v is o r a n d M c Br i d e i s t h e h e a d o f t h e i n s ti t u ti o n

t h e y m u s t c o n s u l t t h o s e p e o p l e , th a t ’s w h e n w e r e c e iv e d a n e m a i l fr o m
t h is a t to r n e y, S a n d i le J u ly, to s a y, h e w a n ts t o i n te r v i e w Mr K h u b a a n d
in th e e m a i l Mr M c Br i d e ’s e m a i l a d d r e s s w a s w r o n g l y s p e lt o n t h e e m a il
s o M r M c B r i d e d i d n o t r e c e iv e th e e m a il , b u t I r e c e iv e d th e e m a il a n d I
20

r e s p o n d e d t o t h e a t to r n e y to s a y, l o o k th i s c a n o n l y b e s a n c t io n e d b y
M r Mc B r i d e a n d y o u h a v e – t h e e m a i l t h a t y o u p u t th e r e i s w r o n g ,
h e r e ’s t h e c o r r e c t e m a i l a d d r e s s . S o M r K h u b a w a s c o n ti n u o u s ly b e i n g
p e s te r e d t o g e t h i m to g o a n d t a l k t o th e s e la w y e r s a n d I s u s p e c t t h a t ,
b e c a u s e o f t h e fr u s tr a t i o n t h a t M r K h u b a is r e f u s in g t o d o s o a n d s a i d it
m u s t g o th r o u g h a p r o p e r p r o c e s s , d e p a r t m e n ta ll y a n d I – m y v i e w is

Page 42 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
t h a t t h e M i n is te r s a w i t f i t t h a t h e s u s p e n d Mr M c Br id e s o t h a t i t ’s e a s y
t h e n to g a i n a c c e s s t o u s .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a b u t a ls o , I g u e s s w e ’l l g e t t o t h e r e p o r t b u t it

s e e m s t o b e a c c e p t e d b y a ll c o n c e r n e d t h a t th e s o - c a l le d f ir s t r e p o r t
w a s o n l y s i g n e d b y o n e p e r s o n , Mr K h u b a .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u d i d n o t s i g n i t ?

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

I did not sign it.

M r M c B r i d e d i d n o t s ig n it , s o if th e t w o o f y o u o n ly

s ig n e d t h e f i n a l – t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t I m e a n t h e t h r e e o f y o u a n d
t h e r e f o r e i f a n y b o d y – i f t h e r e w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e a n e x p l a n a t io n fr o m
anybody it must have been Khuba – Mr Khuba who had signed both but
n o t p e o p l e w h o s ig n e d o n e ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, f r o m o u r s t a n d p o i n t

a n d a f te r e n g a g e m e n t w i t h M r K h u b a w e u n d e r s t o o d th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s .
R e m e m b e r t h a t I ’v e a lr e a d y i n d i c a t e d t h a t I w a s n o t s u p p o s e d t o b e
in v o lv e d b u t o n c e M r K h u b a s t a r t e d e x p la in in g t h e e v e n ts s u r r o u n d i n g
t h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d t h e k i n d o f p r e s s u r e s t h a t h e w a s p u t t h r o u g h , I
m e a n , C h a i r e v e r y li t t le t h in g , M r K h u b a r e c e i v e d s o m e e v i d e n c e th a t
20

seemed to suggest some wrongdoing against General Dramat and
s h a r i n g t h a t e v id e n c e w it h M o u k a n g w e a n d th e t e a m t h a t h e w a s
w o r k i n g w it h , i t w il l i m m e d ia t e l y b e le a k e d t o th e m e d i a . Yo u k n o w, s o
it w a s c l e a r t h a t t h e r e w a s a n o r c h e s tr a t e d e ff o r t t o p u t G e n e r a l D r a m a t
in a b a d li g h t . I w o u l d w a n t t o v e n t u r e to s a y C h a i r th a t , h a d o u r r e p o r t
f o u n d w r o n g d o i n g o r i f w e h a d s u c c u m b e d a n d m a n i p u l a te d th e

Page 43 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
e v i d e n c e a n d t h e f a c ts a n d m a d e a c o n c lu s i o n th a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t
m u s t b e c h a r g e d f o r a n y w r o n g d o i n g w e w o u l d n ’ t h a v e f o u n d o u r s e lv e s
in t h e s i tu a ti o n t h a t w e fi n d o u r s e l v e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y I t h i n k w e s h o u l d t a k e t h e t e a b r e a k a t th is

s t a g e , w e a r e a t t w e n t y p a s t w e w i ll t a k e t h e t e a b r e a k a n d t h e n w e ’l l
r e s u m e a t t w e n ty - f iv e t o t w e lv e , b u t b e f o r e w e d o th a t , M is s W e n tz e l
I’ m n o t s u r e b u t I t h i n k t h e r e w a s s o m e li ti g a ti o n in v o lv in g M r S e s o k o .
Wa s t h e r e s o m e l it i g a t io n fo ll o w i n g y o u r d is m i s s a l , w a s t h e r e s o m e
li ti g a t i o n , C o u r t c a s e ?
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Ye s th e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f li t ig a ti o n s

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

There are?

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t y o u r r e - i n s t a te m e n t w a s a r e s u l t o f

a s e t t le m e n t i s t h a t r i g h t ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s th r o u g h a b a r g a i n in g c o u n c i l.

Ye s s o t h e r e w a s n o a r b i tr a ti o n a w a r d o r j u d g m e n t

t h a t w a s g iv e n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h e r e w a s a n a r b i tr a t i o n a w a r d ?

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

H a v e y o u g o t i t M is s W e n tz e l ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w a s a n a r b it r a ti o n a w a r d .

Ye s .

Is it here?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s it is .

Page 44 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
CHAIRPERSON:

O h b e c a u s e I s a id , I t h i n k la s t w e e k , a n I’ m j u s t

g o i n g t o s a y it a g a i n , p le a s e s h a r e th is in f o r m a ti o n w il l a ll m e m b e r s o f
t h e le g a l te a m , i n r e g a r d t o a n y w i t n e s s w h e r e t h e r e h a s b e e n a
ju d g e m e n t t h e r e h a s b e e n l it i g a t io n t h a t m a y b e r e l a t e d t o w h a t w e a r e
t a lk in g a b o u t w e m u s t h a v e th a t , a n d I m u s t b e a d v i s e d i n a d v a n c e s o
t h a t I c a n r e a d t h a t ju d g e m e n t b u t a ls o i t ’s i m p o r t a n t to lo o k a t
ju d g m e n t s b e c a u s e t h e r e m a y b e fi n d i n g s t h a t h a v e a l r e a d y b e e n m a d e
a n d c o n c l u s i o n s t h a t h a v e b e e n m a d e w h ic h a r e n o t b e i n g c h a l l e n g e d
f u r th e r b y o th e r p a r t ie s w h ic h m ig h t b e i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e u n d e r s t a n d a s
10

t h e p a r tic u la r w i tn e s s i s b e i n g l e d b e c a u s e th o s e fi n d i n g s m i g h t b e
s t a n d in g s o t h a t w e a r e a ll a li v e t o i t .

So I think if we get that

a r b i tr a ti o n a w a r d to b e p a r t o f t h e b u n d l e th a t w i ll b e i m p o r t a n t , a s
s o o n a s p o s s ib le .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s I t h in k t h a t a r b i tr a t io n a w a r d i s p a r t o f

t h e b u n d l e , I’ ll ta k e i t t o y o u in d u e c o u r s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr ig h t .

O k a y w e ’ ll a d j o u r n n o w fo r th e t e a

b r e a k a n d I m o v e t h a t w e w ill r e t u r n a t tw e n ty to t w e lv e . W e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
20

INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Let us proceed.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir b e fo r e t h e t e a a d jo u r n m e n t y o u w e r e

a s k in g m e a b o u t t h e j u d g m e n t a n d th e d i s c ip li n a r y p r o c e e d i n g s . I h a v e
m is in f o r m e d y o u b e c a u s e I g o t c o n f u s e d b e tw e e n t h e d is c i p l in a r y
p r o c e e d i n g s a n d t h e a r b i t r a t io n p r o c e e d i n g s .

Page 45 of 182

We have got the

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
ju d g m e n t i n th e d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e e d i n g s n o t th e a r b i tr a ti o n p r o c e e d i n g s
b u t w e a r e g e t t in g i t a n d I a m s u r e b y l u n c h t i m e w e w i ll b e a b l e to
p r o v i d e i t to y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a t is fi n e b u t a ls o s e e i f t h e r e a r e a n y o t h e r

ju d g m e n t s r e l a t i n g t o h i m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s
CHAIRPERSON:

A b o u t w h e t h e r it is a s u s p e n s i o n o r a d i s m is s a l o r

w h a t e v e r th a t m a y b e r e le v a n t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : To w h a t w e a r e l o o k i n g i n to . L e t u s g e t a ll o f t h e m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s w e w il l .
CHAIRPERSON:

S a m e t h i n g w i th o t h e r w i t n e s s e s i n r e g a r d t o th is

s e c t o r a n d i n r e g a r d to o th e r s s o t h a t w e – w e h a v e a fu ll p i c tu r e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W e w il l d o t h a t. B e f o r e th e a d j o u r n m e n t w e

w e r e d e a li n g w i th t h e i n t e r v i e w s th a t y o u a t te n d e d w i t h W e r k m a n s . Is i t
c o r r e c t t h a t r e c o r d e d t h a t i n t e r v ie w ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
20

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir I r e c o r d e d t h e

in t e r v ie w.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d if y o u h a v e a l o o k a t A n n e x u r e M S 1 o n

p a g e 2 2 i s t h a t t h e t r a n s c r i p t o f th e r e c o r d i n g ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d d i d W e r k m a n s a l s o r e c o r d th is i n t e r v ie w ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r W e r k m a n s a ls o

Page 46 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
r e c o r d e d i t . W h a t h a d h a p p e n e d w a s t h a t w h e n b e fo r e w e s t a r t e d th e y
p u t a r e c o r d i n g o n t h e t a b le t o s a y th e y a r e r e c o r d in g t h e i n t e r v i e w. I
s a i d i t is fi n e b u t I a l s o w a n t to r e c o r d th e in t e r v ie w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d I a ls o p u t m y r e c o r d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To r e c o r d t h e i n te r v i e w.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w if y o u h a v e a lo o k a t t h e b o t t o m o f p a g e
10

2 3 y o u w il l s e e i t is r e fl e c t e d t h e r e :
“Mr Sesoko:

J a I t h in k f ir s t o f a ll w h a t I w a n t to

r a i s e is I w a n t t o k n o w t h e s t a tu s o f t h e in q u ir y a n d
M r T h o m : O k a y.
Mr Sesoko:

Whether I am here as a suspect in a

c r i m i n a l in v e s t i g a t io n o r a d is c i p l in a r y i n v e s t ig a ti o n
b e c a u s e w h e n I w e n t t h r o u g h t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e
t h e M i n is t e r s a y s y o u m u s t i n v e s t ig a te w h e th e r t h e r e
was a misconduct or crime committed so I need to
e s t a b li s h w h a t m y s ta t u s is . A n d
20

M r T h o m : Ye s y o u r s s t a t e d M r S e s o k o y o u a r e n o t a
s u s p e c t i n c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s o r p r o c e e d i n g s to b e
c o n d u c t e d t o b e e it h e r c o n d u c te d b y t h e M i n is t e r o r
IPID

for

that

m a t te r.

T h is

in v e s t i g a t io n

is

to

u n d e r s t a n d a s to w h a t :
W h y d o w e h a v e th e s e t w o r e p o r t s w h ic h h a v e

Page 47 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
c o n fli c ti n g

i n fo r m a ti o n

and

a

way

w h ic h

have

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t a r e d i ff e r e n t ?
M r S e s o k o : O k a y.
M r Th o m :

Yo u k n o w s o o u r m a n d a t e i s t o e s t a b l is h

t h o s e f a c ts y o u k n o w.
M r S e s o k o : A lr i g h t .
M r T h o m : A s t o w h y d o w e h a v e t h e d i ff e r e n t – t w o
d i ff e r e n t in v e s t i g a t io n r e p o r ts .
M r S e s o k o : O k a y.
10

M r T h o m : Ye s .
M r S e s o k o : N o i t is f in e .
M r T h o m : O k a y Mr S e s o k o lik e I s a i d b e f o r e y o u y o u
p o s e d a q u e s ti o n o n t h e s ta t u s a n d t h e p u r p o s e o f
the

in v e s t i g a t io n .

We

had

c o n s u lt e d

with

Mr

Innocent Khuba.”
Is t h a t a tr u e r e f l e c ti o n ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h a t is c o r r e c t b e c a u s e i n – I a s k e d

s p e c i f ic a l ly t h i s b e c a u s e I n e e d e d t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t is it t h a t th e y
w e r e l o o k i n g a t ? A n d – s o t h a t i f i t is a n in v e s t i g a t io n t h a t h a s t o l o o k
20

a t is s u e s o f m is c o n d u c t a g a i n s t m e a n y c r i m in a l i n q u ir y a g a in s t m e
t h e n I c a n h a v e p r o p e r l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t io n t o e n g a g e i n t h a t p r o c e s s .
B u t b e c a u s e o f t h e a s s u r a n c e t h a t t h e y g a v e m e t h a t i t is n o t a b o u t t h a t
b u t o n l y t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e – h o w th e r e p o r ts c a m e a b o u t t h e n t h a t w a s
t h e o n ly b a s is I p a r t ic ip a t e d i n t h a t p r o c e s s . T h a t is w h y I w a s ta k i n g
aback when the report now comes and recommend that I be charged.

Page 48 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W h e n y o u d i d y o u f ir s t l e a r n a b o u t t h e

W e r k m a n ’s R e p o r t? Yo u c a n g o b a c k to p a r a g r a p h 3 5 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t
– page 9?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h e r e p o r t …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I a m s o r r y M s W e n tz e l a r e y o u d e li b e r a t e l y

ju m p i n g to t h e r e p o r t b e f o r e f in a l is in g th e d i s c u s s i o n a t t h e m e e ti n g
t h a t h e h a d w i t h th e W e r k m a n s t e a m ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . W e c a n – I w i ll g o b a c k t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
W h a t – w h a t d i d y o u te ll t h e W e r k m a n s t e a m a f t e r t h a t a b o u t th e t w o
10

reports?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Chair I explained to them as my earlier

t e s ti m o n y s a id a b o u t h o w th e tw o r e p o r t s .
CHAIRPERSON: Came about.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C a m e a b o u t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

A s I h a d e a r li e r e x p l a i n e d t h a t m y

engagement with Mr Khuba.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d t h e fa c t t h a t t h e r e w a s f u r th e r e v i d e n c e
20

t h a t w a s o b ta i n e d b y Mr K h u b a .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

A n d th a t w a s t h e b a s is o n w h ic h w e

a n a ly s e d th e e v i d e n c e w i th Mr K h u b a a n d c a m e to th e c o n c l u s i o n s a s
we did.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 49 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d th e f a c t t h a t I w a s n o t a w a r e a n d i f y o u
g o th r o u g h th e tr a n s c r i p t a n d e v e n t h e ir r e p o r t y o u w i ll r e a lis e t h a t th e y
e v e n s a y i n th e i r r e p o r t I r e f u s e d t o e n g a g e t h e m o n th e – th e s o c a ll e d
fir s t r e p o r t t h a t w a s s i g n e d b y K h u b a .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : B e c a u s e I a l w a y s m a in t a i n e d t h a t I d i d n o t
k n o w a b o u t th a t r e p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
10

A n d t h e r e fo r e I c a n n o t s a y a n y t h i n g in

r e l a ti o n t o t h a t r e p o r t .
Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

I c a n o n ly t a l k a b o u t th e r e p o r t th a t I h a d

s ig n e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d th a t w a s s u b m i t t e d t o t h e N PA .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d th a t is t h e r e p o r t I w a s i n v o lv e d w i th .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h e o t h e r r e p o r t I k n o w n o t h i n g a b o u t i t a n d
20

I cannot engage on it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . W h e n y o u s a i d – e x p l a in e d a ll o f th is to t h e m a t
t h e m e e t in g w h a t e ls e d i d t h e y w a n t t o f i n d o u t fr o m y o u ? O n e w o u l d
h a v e th o u g h t i t b e c a m e c l e a r y o u k n e w n o th in g a b o u t th e f ir s t r e p o r t
t h e r e f o r e t h e y s h o u l d n o t a s k y o u a n y th in g a b o u t t h a t a n d t h e n i f th e y
c o u l d n o t a s k y o u a n y th i n g a b o u t t h e f ir s t r e p o r t I d o n o t s e e w h y t h e y

Page 50 of 182

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w o u ld b e a b le t o a s k y o u a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t b e c a u s e t h e
s e c o n d r e p o r t h a d r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

What

problem

would

they

have

with

the

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s i n t h e f ir s t – t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : E x a c tl y C h a ir a n d I – th e in t e r v ie w d i d n o t
g o a n y fu r t h e r b e c a u s e I g o t a s e n s e th a t t h e y w e r e fr u s tr a t e d b y t h e
f a c t th a t I d i d n o t w a n t t o e n g a g e t h e m o n th e f ir s t r e p o r t w h ic h I d i d
n o t k n o w a n y t h in g a b o u t.
10

And because they kept on harping on the

is s u e o f a l t e r in g th e r e p o r t a n d I s a i d t o th e m b u t I c a n n o t a l t e r
s o m e t h i n g I d o k n o w.
k n o w.

S o m e t h in g t h a t I h a v e n e v e r e v e n s e e n y o u

S o b e c a u s e o f m y r e s p o n s e s t o t h e m t h e y j u s t s to p p e d t h e

in t e r v ie w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n Mr M c B r i d e g a v e e v id e n c e I d id tr y t o y o u k n o w
d e a l w i th – t o t r y a n d g e t c l a r i f ic a t i o n o n t h is c o n c e p t o f a l t e r in g i n t h e
r e p o r t b e c a u s e it s e e m e d to b e c e n tr a l t o t h e w h o l e t h i n g .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : B u t a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i ti o n n o w a n d y o u
m u s t j u s t te ll m e i f t h a t is y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t o o ?
20

There was a so

c a l l e d – th e r e w a s t h i s s o c a ll e d f ir s t r e p o r t .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Which

recommended

th a t

General Dramat

and

General Sibiya be charged.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e n t h e r e w a s t h e s e c o n d a n d fi n a l r e p o r t w h i c h

Page 51 of 182

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recommended that they should not be charged.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s e t w o w e r e s e p a r a te r e p o r ts .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S e p a r a t e d o c u m e n ts .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e o n e s ta n d i n g o n i ts o w n , t h e o t h e r s t a n d in g o n i t s
o w n . E a c h o n e h a v i n g it s o w n s t a t u s . T h e fi r s t o n e h a v i n g – h a v i n g a
c e r t a i n s t a tu s a n d t h e fi n a l o n e h a v i n g t h e s t a tu s o f a fi n a l r e p o r t . A m I
10

– a m I - is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g c o r r e c t s o f a r ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d I a m s u r p r is e d

t h a t y o u h a v e s u c h a n e a s y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h is t h in g b e c a u s e t h a t i s
e x a c tl y w h a t w e h a v e b e e n t r y i n g t o e x p l a i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

A n d u n f o r t u n a te ly w h e n p e o p l e h a v e t h e i r

own agendas …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h a t k i n d o f e x p l a n a ti o n n e v e r fl ie s w it h

t h e m . A n d t h a t is w h y t h e n u b o f th e c h a r g e s a g a in s t u s in c l u d i n g t h e
20

criminal charges.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Wa s t h a t w e h a v e c h a n g e d t h e r e p o r t . W e
have altered the report.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I m e a n i t i s – i t is – it is w h a t I – I c o u l d n o t

understand because if you talk about altering a report, changing a

Page 52 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
r e p o r t fo r m e y o u a r e t a lk in g a b o u t h a v in g t h i s d o c u m e n t a n d t h e n
c h a n g in g o n t h e – p h y s ic a lly o n t h a t d o c u m e n t .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : E x a c tl y.
CHAIRPERSON:

I f y o u h a v e o n e d o c u m e n t w h ic h s a y s o n e t h i n g y o u

h a v e a n o th e r d o c u m e n t w h ic h s a y s o n e t h i n g y o u c a n n o t b e s a i d t o
have changed that one.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : E x a c tl y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m a y b e s a id – y o u m a y b e h a v e – y o u m a y b e

s a i d to h a v e m a d e a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n th a t i s d i ff e r e n t fr o m th e o n e
10

m a d e i n t h e f ir s t r e p o r t . S o th a t is f in e . A n d s o w h a t .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d C h a ir i n o u r c r a f t a s i n v e s ti g a t o r s i t is
not unusual that you would have a – a change of opinion in your
in v e s t i g a t io n b a s e d o n th e e v id e n c e y o u h a v e a t th a t p o in t in ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

A t a p a r ti c u l a r p o in t I m i g h t h a v e a

p a r t ic u l a r s e t o f e v i d e n c e w h ic h w h e n lo o k e d o n i ts o w n m a y w a n t m e
t o c o m e to a p a r ti c u la r c o n c l u s io n .

B u t a t s o m e p o in t I c a n h a v e

f u r th e r e v id e n c e w h i c h a t th a t p o in t m a y m a k e m e c o n c lu d e d i ffe r e n tl y.
T h e r e is n o t h i n g w r o n g w it h t h a t .
20

A n d w e a s in v e s ti g a t o r s w e m a k e

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s C h a ir. I a m a f o r m e r p r o s e c u to r a n d a s a p r o s e c u t o r
y o u l o o k a t t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t is c o n t a i n e d in t h e d o c k e t a n d t h a t is t h e
b a s is o n w h i c h y o u m a k e a d e c is io n w h e t h e r t o p r o s e c u t e o r n o t . Yo u
c a n l o o k a t a m e m o r a n d u m o r a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o r w h a te v e r y o u w a n t
t o c a l l i t fr o m a n in v e s ti g a t o r b u t t h a t d o e s n o t in f o r m y o u r d e c is i o n a s
a p r o s e c u to r. B e c a u s e y o u r d e c i s i o n m u s t b e b a s e d o n w h a t e v i d e n c e

Page 53 of 182

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is c o n ta in e d in t h e d o c k e t?

Even if we were to say there were two

s e p a r a t e r e p o r ts w it h t w o s e p a r a t e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s th o s e c a n n o t i n
a n y w a y in f lu e n c e t h e d e c is io n o f t h e N PA b e c a u s e th e N PA m u s t m a k e
t h e ir d e c is i o n b a s e d o n t h e e v id e n c e t h a t is c o n t a i n e d i n t h e d o c k e t.
T h e r e i s n o a ll e g a t io n th a t w e r e m o v e d e v i d e n c e fr o m t h e e v id e n c e .
T h e a ll e g a t i o n is th a t w e a l t e r e d a r e p o r t . N o w I c a n n o t a l t e r a r e p o r t
t h a t I h a v e n o t s e e n i n th e fir s t p l a c e . B u t a ls o i m p o r t a n t ly i n th e – in
t h e d is c o v e r in g o u r c r i m i n a l – i n th e c r i m i n a l in v e s ti g a t io n t h a t t h e y d i d
a g a in s t u s o n e o f t h e s e n i o r a d v o c a t e s i n t h e N PA a c t u a ll y d e p o s e a
10

s t a te m e n t t o s a y th a t h e d o e s n o t e v e n r e m e m b e r s e e i n g t h e r e p o r t –
t h a t s o c a ll e d f ir s t r e p o r t i n th e d o c k e t .

But even if he had it means

n o t h i n g t o h i m b e c a u s e h e d o e s n o t m a k e h is d e c is io n b a s e d o n s u c h a
r e p o r t . H e m a k e s a d e c is i o n b a s e d o n w h a t is c o n t a i n e d i n t h e d o c k e t .
H o w e v e r t h e N PA c h a r g e d u s f o r fr a u d t h a t w e t r i e d t o m i s r e p r e s e n t t o
t h e p r e j u d ic e o f t h e N PA . H o w is t h a t p o s s ib le ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja you see I mean everybody should know that an

in v e s t i g a t o r y o u k n o w m i g h t h a v e d i ff e r e n t v ie w s a t d i ff e r e n t s ta g e s o f
in v e s t i g a t io n s a b o u t w h e th e r s o m e b o d y w a s i n v o lv e d in a c r i m e o r n o t
a n d w h e th e r th e y s h o u ld b e c h a r g e d a n d s o o n a n d s o o n . B u t t h a t is
20

n o t h i n g – t h a t is n o t s o m e t h i n g t h a t is c o n f in e d t o i n v e s t ig a t o r s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : E x a c tl y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m e a n a l a w y e r w h o i s c o n s u l te d b y a c l ie n t w ill h a v e
a c e r ta in v i e w a t a c e r t a i n ti m e a b o u t h o w g o o d t h a t c l i e n t ’s c a s e i s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : E x a c tl y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i f – b u t l a t e r o n h e o r s h e c a n c h a n g e t h a t v ie w

Page 54 of 182

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d e p e n d in g – h e o r s h e c a n c h a n g e t h a t v ie w i f t h e r e a d d i ti o n a l
evidence.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : E x a c tl y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h e o r s h e c a n c h a n g e t h a t v i e w e v e n if t h e r e is n o
a d d it i o n a l e v id e n c e .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : E x a c tl y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : By s i m p ly r e fl e c ti n g f u r t h e r.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : E x a c tl y.
CHAIRPERSON: On the same evidence.
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : E x a c tl y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Judges do the same thing.

I mean you and Mr

M c Br i d e h a v e t o l d m e c e r t a i n th i n g s a b o u t t h i s is s u e .

On my mind

p r i m a f a c ie I h a v e c e r t a in v i e w s a n d t h e y m i g h t b e a p p a r e n t fr o m w e r e
s o m e o f m y q u e s t io n s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: But I have not made a final decision and when those
p e o p l e c o m e h e r e a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e w h o k n o w s m a y b e t h e y c a n
c h a n g e m y m in d a n d s h o w m e th a t a c t u a l ly y o u p e o p l e d id s o m e t h in g
t e r r i b le .
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : E x a c tl y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u k n o w b u t a s t h in g s s ta n d I c a n n o t u n d e r s ta n d

w h a t t h e w h o le is s u e w a s a b o u t . A n d – s o e v e n if th e r e w e r e t w o v i e w s
o n e s a y in g G e n e r a l Si b iy a a n d G e n e r a l D r a m a t m u s t b e c h a r g e d a n d
t h e la t e r o n e s a y i n g th e y m u s t n o t b e c h a r g e d i t is t w o v i e w s a n d I
w o u ld th o u g h t t h a t i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a p p a r e n t fr o m a p r o p e r r e a d i n g

Page 55 of 182

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o f t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t th a t t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g a d d it i o n a l t o w h a t h a d
b e e n t h e r e w h e n t h e f ir s t r e p o r t w a s m a d e
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : E x a c tl y.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th a t t h a t o n i ts o w n s h o u ld h a v e t o l d a n y b o d y

t h a t t h a t m u s t b e t h e r e a s o n w h y t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n is d i ff e r e n t a n d
t h e n w h a t – w h y t h e r e w a s a n e e d t o i n v e s ti g a te – t o a p p o i n t a la w fir m
t o i n v e s t ig a t e th a t b e f o r e I P I D w a s a s k e d t o e x p l a i n t h i s i s s o m e t h i n g
t h a t I h o p e s o m e b o d y w i ll e x p l a i n t o m e i n d u e c o u r s e .

Ye s y o u m a y

proceed Ms Wentzel.
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C h a ir i t g e t s w o r s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Th e – w e m a d e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t

C o l o n e l M a l u l e k e “ C o w b o y ” b e c h a r g e d c r i m i n a ll y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h e N PA o n i ts w i s d o m a t t h e ti m e o f f o r m e r
N D P P S h a u n A b r a h a ms a n d o t h e r p r o s e c u to r s t h a t w e r e d e a l in g w i t h
t h is d e c i d e d t o – to p r o s e c u t e G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S ib iy a t h e
s a m e w a y t h e y d e c i d e d to p r o s e c u te u s .

The case against us were

w i t h d r a w n . Th e c a s e s a g a in s t G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d Si b iy a w e r e a ls o
20

withdrawn.

I t i s o n ly C o lo n e l M a l u le k e “ C o w b o y ” w h o is s ti ll f a c in g

c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s in li n e w i t h o u r r e c o m m e n d a t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

N o w t h e r e i s a n a c k n o w l e d g m e n t b y N PA

t h a t a c t u a l ly w h a t is r e c o m m e n d e d i t is a c o r r e c t p o s it i o n b e c a u s e
t h e r e is n o t e v i d e n c e th a t c a n s u s t a in c r i m in a l c h a r g e s a g a i n s t G e n e r a l

Page 56 of 182

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D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S ib iy a .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t in t h e m e a n t i m e y o u w e r e p u t t h r o u g h a c e r t a i n

process.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

M r S e s o k o w h e n d i d y o u fi r s t

le a r n a b o u t t h e W e r k m a n s R e p o r t?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C h a ir I th in k i t w a s a r o u n d A p r il w h e n th e –
t h e r e p o r t w a s – w a s r e l e a s e d . I t w a s o n a S u n d a y I w a s o n – I w a s in
10

c h u r c h s o w h e n I a m i n c h u r c h m y p h o n e i s a l w a y s o ff . A n d w h e n I g o t
o u t o f c h u r c h I o p e n e d m y p h o n e a n d f o r t h e f ir s t ti m e m y p h o n e w a s s o
b u s y b e c a u s e i t w a s j u s t m e s s a g e s a n d m e s s a g e s a n d m i s s e d c a ll s .
A n d w h e n I c h e c k e d I f i n d i t w a s f a m ily m e m b e r s , f r i e n d s , p e o p l e w h o
k n o w m e w h o w e r e s a y in g th e r e i s a r e p o r t i n th e S u n d a y Ti m e s .

I

t h i n k i t w a s o n th e f ir s t p a g e a ll e g i n g w r o n g d o i n g a g a in s t m e , M c B r i d e
a n d M r K h u b a . A n d u p o n s e e in g t h e s e m e s s a g e s I t h e n s e n t m y s o n t o
g o a n d g e t m e t h e n e w s p a p e r a n d fo r t h e fir s t t i m e I th e n r e a l is e d t h a t
W e r k m a n s h a s r e l e a s e d a r e p o r t . N o w a s p e o p l e w h o a r e i m p lic a t e d i n
t h e r e p o r t n o - o n e d a r e d t o c o n ta c t u s a b o u t t h is . T h e j o u r n a l is ts t h a t
20

w e r e w r i ti n g th e s to r y M Z il ik a z i Wa A f r i k a fr o m t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s a s
w e ll a s Mr H o fs t a d t e r n e v e r b o t h e r e d to c o n ta c t u s a b o u t th is r e p o r t
w h ic h w a s m a k i n g a d v e r s e f in d i n g s a g a i n s t u s .

These are the very

s a m e jo u r n a l is ts C h a i r w h o m a d e r e p o r t s o n t h e S A R S r o g u e u n i t . A ls o
o n t h e G e n e r a l B o o y s e n ’s is s u e s w i t h C a t o M a n o r.
jo u r n a li s ts .

The same

S o to m e i t l o o k s lik e t h e y w e r e w o r k in g w i t h p a r t ic u l a r

Page 57 of 182

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p e o p l e w i t h i n t h e – t h e c lu s te r to p u t – to p u s h a p a r ti c u l a r a g e n d a a n d
t o d e a l w i th u s b e c a u s e w e a r e n o t c o m p l i a n t t o t h e a g e n d a s t h a t t h e y
n e e d e d t o a c h ie v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Mr S e s o k o is i t t h e s a m e j o u r n a l is ts t h a t y o u
r e fe r to i n p a r a g r a p h 2 9 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t w h e n y o u s a i d t h a t y o u w e r e
a l e r t e d t o a m e d ia e n q u ir y t h a t t h e jo u r n a li s t s h a d a c o p y o f t h e s o
c a l l e d fi r s t r e p o r t o f M r K h u b a ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
10

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

B e c a u s e a ls o w h a t

w e m u s t a s k o u r s e lv e s is h o w d i d t h e j o u r n a l is ts c a m e – c o m e i n t o
p o s s e s s i o n o f th a t r e p o r t w h ic h M r K h u b a h a d o n ly s h a r e d w i t h
Advocate Mosing?

A s I h a v e in d ic a t e d t h a t a s I P I D w e n e v e r s h a r e d

s u c h a r e p o r t a t l e a s t fr o m w h a t M r K h u b a h e o n ly s h a r e d t h a t r e p o r t
w i t h A d v o c a t e M o s i n g . T h e o n ly r e p o r t th a t w e g a v e t o t h e M i n i s t e r i s
t h e r e p o r t t h a t w a s s i g n e d b y a ll o f u s i n t h e N PA t h a t w a s s e n t a l s o t o
t h e N PA .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w t h e o ffi c ia l d a te o f r e l e a s e o f t h e

W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t s o a f te r i t w a s l e a k e d is t h e 2 4 t h A p r il 2 0 1 5 .

The

r e p o r t is A n n e x u r e M S 2 a t p a g e 6 2 . C o u ld y o u j u s t c o n f ir m t h a t ?
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d a f te r t h e r e l e a s e o f t h is
report?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A f t e r –
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll b e f o r e – b e f o r e w e g e t t o – t o w h a t h a p p e n e d

a ft e r w h a t w a s – w h a t w a s th e fi n d i n g o f t h is r e p o r t i n r e l a ti o n t o y o u r

Page 58 of 182

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r o l e in s o f a r a s y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d ?

W h a t d id i t f i n d in r e g a r d t o

yourself?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

C h a i r t h e r e p o r t m a d e a f in d in g t h a t I a m

g u il ty o f d e f e a t in g th e e n d s o f j u s ti c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d e x to r t io n I t h i n k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : B y a l t e r i n g t h e r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : D e s p i t e t h e fa c t th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ev e n fr o m t h e i n te r v i e w s – I m e a n w h e n y o u
r e a d t h e r e p o r t C h a i r y o u c a n n o t f in d e v e n a c o n n e c ti o n . I tr ie d t o f in d
a c o n n e c ti o n – h o w d o t h e y c o m e to t h a t c o n c l u s io n ?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Based on what was presented on them.

I

c a n n o t fi n d i t. B u t th e r e p o r t c o n c lu d e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I n th a t f a s h io n .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I t h i n k th e – I th i n k th e r e l e v a n t p e o p l e fr o m

W e r k s m a n s w il l h a v e t o c o m e a n d e x p l a i n s o m e o f t h e f i n d in g s t h a t
t h e y m a d e – m a k e m e u n d e r s t a n d t h e ir fi n d i n g s .

I t is j u s t d i ffi c u l t to

understand

was

how you can say

somebody

who

p a r ty

to

the

p r e p a r a ti o n a n d p r o d u c t io n o f o n e r e p o r t a n d w a s n o t i n v o l v e d in a n y
w a y o n t h e p r o d u c t i o n o f a n o th e r r e p o r t c a n b e s a i d t o h a v e a l t e r e d t h e

Page 59 of 182

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fir s t r e p o r t . I t is j u s t s o m e t h i n g I h a v e i m m e n s e d i ff ic u l t u n d e r s t a n d in g .
But again maybe when they come they will be able to explain it to and
m a y b e I w il l u n d e r s ta n d i t .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t is t h e fi n d i n g t h e y m a d e a g a i n s t y o u ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : J a . I h o p e t h e y d o C h a ir b e c a u s e a ls o w h a t
I t a k e u m b r a g e w it h t h e – th e – t h e a t t o r n e y w h o d e a l t w it h t h i s r e p o r t
M s S a n d i le J u ly th e l e a s t I w o u ld h a v e e x p e c te d w a s t h a t th e f a c t t h a t
t h e y a s s u r e d m e t h a t m y b a s i s o f p a r t ic i p a t io n in t h a t in t e r v i e w w it h
10

them.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

I t i s n o t a b o u t m a k i n g s u c h fi n d i n g s .

At

le a s t a t t h e t i m e w h e n th e y w e r e d o i n g t h e ir r e p o r t a n d t h e y t h i n k th a t
t h e y w a n t t o m a k e s u c h f i n d in g t o h a v e a n a u d a c i ty t o c o m e t o m e a n d
s a y b a s e d o n t h e e v id e n c e t h a t w e h a v e w e t h i n k w e a r e g o in g t o m a k e
fi n d i n g s a g a in s t y o u , d o y o u h a v e a n y t h in g – a n y r e p r e s e n t a ti o n o r
a n y th in g y o u w a n t t o s a y ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I n r e l a ti o n t o t h a t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t n e v e r h a p p e n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

E ff e c ti v e ly w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g i s a f t e r y o u h a d m e t

with them and you had told them that you had nothing to do with the
fir s t r e p o r t a n d th e r e f o r e c o u l d n o t s a y a n y t h i n g a b o u t i t y o u h a d
s o m e t h i n g t o d o w i t h th e s e c o n d r e p o r t. I f a f t e r th a t th e y h a d m e t w i t h

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w i t n e s s e s a n d o b ta in e d s ta t e m e n ts fr o m w i t n e s s e s w h o s a i d y o u w e r e
in v o lv e d in t h a t w a y o r i n a n y o th e r w a y.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n th e b a s is o f w h ic h th e y c o u l d r e c o m m e n d c r i m in a l
c h a r g e s o r d is c ip li n a r y s te p s th e l e a s t t h e y c o u l d h a v e d o n e is t o c o m e
b a c k t o y o u a n d s a y s in c e o u r la s t m e e ti n g w e h a v e o b ta i n e d t h e
f o ll o w i n g .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O r w e h a v e r e fl e c t e d o n w h a t y o u s a i d a n d w e h a v e

t h is t o p u t t o y o u , w h a t d o y o u s a y a b o u t th is b e c a u s e w e m i g h t m a k e
fi n d i n g s t h a t c o u ld b e – g o a g a i n s t y o u .

T h a t i s w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g

and you say they did not do that?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h e y d i d n o t d o th a t C h a ir.

And that – I

m e a n t h a t is a b a s ic te n a n t o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : O f – o f o u r l a w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s c o n t i n u e – c o n t in u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

C o u l d y o u h a v e r e g a r d to

paragraph …
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

S o r r y C h a ir I – I th in k I n e e d t o a l s o

in d i c a t e th is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Th a t a t th e c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s a g a i n s t u s
o n t h e d a y th a t b e c a u s e w e h a v e b e e n i n s is ti n g t h a t t h is m a t te r m u s t
g o o n tr ia l a n d t h e N PA w a s d i lly d a l ly i n g d i d n o t w a n t t o g o o n t r i a l .

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W e u lt i m a t e ly w e r e a b l e t o fo r c e th e m t o a g r e e t o a tr i a l d a t e . O n t h e
d a y th a t th e m a t t e r w a s s u p p o s e d to b e t r ie d t h e p r o s e c u t o r fr o m t h e
N PA A d v o c a te M a e m a t h e n t e lls t h e M a g i s tr a t e t h a t t h e w i t n e s s e s a r e
n o t t h e r e a n d t h a t o n e o f t h e ir w i tn e s s e s M r S a n d il e J u l y w h o a u t h o r e d
t h is r e p o r t i s r e f u s i n g t o t e s t i fy a n d h e h a s t h r e a te n e d t h e N PA th a t i f
t h e y c a n f o r c e h i m t o t e s t i fy h e w i ll t a k e t h e m t o c o u r t . N o w w e fo u n d
o u r s e lv e s i n th e s i t u a t io n t h a t w e w e r e o n th e b a s i s o f t h is r e p o r t b u t
t h e a u t h o r o f th e r e p o r t s a y s I a m n o t g o i n g t o t e s ti fy a n d e v e n
t h r e a t e n s t h e N PA to ta k e th e m t o c o u r t i f t h e y tr y t o f o r c e h i m t o
10

t e s ti fy. N o w y o u a s k y o u r s e l f w h y t h e n ? W h y m a k e s u c h a r e p o r t b u t
y o u c a n n o t s t a n d b y i t?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I h a v e i n s tr u c t e d t h e l e g a l t e a m a n d t h e

in v e s t i g a t io n te a m t o s e c u r e t h e r e le v a n t fi le s a n d d o c k e ts r e l a ti n g to
t h e c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s r e l a ti n g to y o u a n d M r M c Br i d e a n d M r K h u b a
w a s a ls o c h a r g e d .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is it n o t ? Ye s . I h a v e s a i d t h a t I w a n t t o s e e e x a c tl y
w h a t d o c u m e n ts t h e p e r s o n w h o m a d e th e d e c is i o n t h a t y o u b e c h a r g e d
h a d b e f o r e h i m o r h e r.
I w i ll w a n t t h a t p e r s o n t o c o m e a n d g iv e e v id e n c e . M a y b e t h e y

20

w i ll b e a b l e t o s h o w t h a t th e r e w e r e p r o p e r g r o u n d s fo r t h e d e c i s i o n t o
c h a r g e a n d i f t h a t i s s o i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t t h e ir s id e o f t h e s to r y b e
h e a r d . B u t i f t h e r e w e n o p r o p e r g r o u n d s i t w o u ld b e t o s a y t h e le a s t
m o s t r e g r e t ta b l e t h a t p e o p le w e r e p u t t h r o u g h t h i s p r o c e s s w i t h o u t s u c h
grounds.

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S o – s o t h a t p r o c e s s i s h a p p e n i n g t o o b t a i n t h o s e d o c k e ts a n d
fi le s a n d th e r e le v a n t p e o p le w i ll b e a s k e d t o c o m e a n d g i v e e v i d e n c e
s o t h a t I c a n u n d e r s ta n d p r o p e r ly.

B e c a u s e th e r e c e r t a i n ly is a n

a l le g a ti o n t h a t s o m e ti m e s t h e p o l ic e w e r e u s e d , s o m e t i m e s t h e N PA
w e r e u s e d , s o m e ti m e s a l l o f t h e m w e r e u s e d i m p r o p e r l y in o r d e r to d e a l
w i t h c e r ta in in d iv i d u a ls w h o m a y n o t h a v e b e e n p r e p a r e d to d o c e r t a i n
t h i n g s a n d t h a t is a s e r i o u s a ll e g a t io n a g a in s t t h e s e v e r y i m p o r t a n t
in s t i tu t io n s , th e p o l ic e a n d th e N PA a n d it s h o u l d n o t b e m a d e u n le s s i t
has proper grounds.
A n d i f i t is m a d e i t m u s t b e i n v e s ti g a t e d p r o p e r ly b e c a u s e i f i t

10

is f o u n d t o b e w e ll- f o u n d e d th e n s o m e t h in g q u i t e s e r io u s s h o u ld b e
done.

B e c a u s e w e c a n n o t a ff o r d t o h a v e t h e s e i n s ti t u ti o n s b e i n g

m a n i p u l a te d o r u s e d f o r i m p r o p e r m o tiv e s a n d a g e n d a s . S o t h a t i s t h e
part of the reason why I want to see all of those things.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s a n d w e w il l m a k e s u r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a t w e g e t a l l th o s e t h in g s t o y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p le a s e . J a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Can we go back to paragraph 36? Could you
20

t e ll t h e C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d o n 11 M a y 2 0 1 5 ?

S o t h is is j u s t a f e w

w e e k s a f t e r 2 4 A p r i l 2 0 1 5 w h i c h is th e d a t e o f t h e W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : O n 11 M a y C h a ir I w a s c a ll e d b y t h e A c ti n g
E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r M r K g a m a n y a n e a n d in t h a t m e e t i n g - w h ic h I
r e c o r d e d C h a i r - h e h a d i n d i c a t e d t h a t h e is in t e n d in g to s u s p e n d m e .
I n f a c t h e g a v e m e a l e tt e r o f h is i n te n ti o n to s u s p e n d m e . N o w I t h i n k

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it is i m p o r t a n t C h a ir t h a t I i n d ic a te t o y o u t h a t p r i o r t o t h is in c i d e n t
m y s e l f a n d M r K g a m a n y a n e e n j o y e d q u it e a c o r d ia l r e l a ti o n s h i p a s
colleagues.
I n fa c t i n m y p r i o r r o le a s th e P r o v i n c i a l H e a d f o r - f o r N o r th
W e s t I w o u l d e v e n a s s is t h i m i n - a f te r h e w a s a p p o in t e d t h e P r o v i n c i a l
H e a d fo r Fr e e S t a t e s e t ti n g u p h i s o ff ic e . A s s i s t i n g h i m w i t h p e r s o n n e l
fr o m m y o ffi c e s o t h a t h e c a n a s s is t h i m t o b e a b l e t o m a n a g e t h e o ffi c e
p r o p e r ly. S o I r e g a r d e d h i m a s o n e o f t h o s e c l o s e c o ll e a g u e s a n d w h e n
I s a t w i t h h i m o n th is d a y a n d - a n d h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t h e i n t e n d s t o
10

s u s p e n d m e I w a s t a k e n a b a c k e s p e c i a ll y c o m i n g fr o m h i m a n d h i m
knowing the kind of person I am and - and I even asked him but you,
y o u a r e d o in g t h is t o m e a n d h e s a i d t o m e C h a ir in v e r n a c u l a r th a t y o u
k n o w w h e n y o u - y o u jo i n t h e p o lic e a n d th e y te ll y o u to g o a n d a r r e s t t h e y t e l l y o u t o g o a n d a r r e s t y o u r f a th e r y o u m u s t d o i t .
S o i n t h e c o n te x t o f o u r c o n v e r s a t io n i t w a s c le a r t o m e th a t
h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t h e h a s b e e n i n s tr u c t e d b y th e M i n i s t e r t o s u s p e n d
m e a n d I a c c e p te d th a t i t is - it is g o i n g t o h a p p e n a n d w h a t w a s
in t e r e s ti n g a ls o i n o u r c o n v e r s a ti o n i s t h a t h e s p e c i fi c a ll y a s k e d m e
a b o u t tw o s p e c i fi c h i g h p r o fi l e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s th a t w e w e r e b u s y w i t h .

20

T h e P a n d a y m a tt e r w h ic h G e n e r a l B o o y s e n h a s t e s t if i e d t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I n th is C o m m i s s io n a b o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Now

that

matter

Chair

was

i n i t ia ll y

in v e s t i g a t e d b y t h e H a w k s i n K Z N b u t b e c a u s e o f th e in t e r f e r e n c e w i th

Page 64 of 182

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t h e in v e s t i g a t io n i n th a t m a t te r t h e m a t t e r w a s t h e n r e p o r t e d t o u s b y
P a r li a m e n t . T h e n t h a t is h o w w e g o t in v o l v e d i n t h a t in v e s t i g a t io n . W e
r e q u e s t e d t h e d o c k e ts fr o m t h e - t h e H a w k s a n d t h e y p r o v i d e d u s w i t h
all these dockets and upon perusing that it was clear that there was
la r g e s c a l e c o r r u p ti o n b y m e m b e r s o f t h e S A P S a n d a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r
t h e r e Mr P a n d a y w o r t h m i ll io n s o f - o f R a n d s b u t t h e r e w a s a ls o a - a
m e m o r a n d u m t h e r e a u th o r is e d b y o n e o f t h e p r o s e c u t o r s w h e r e t h e r e
w e r e b a s i c a ll y d e c li n i n g t o p r o s e c u t o r s o m e o f th e s e c a s e s .
W e w r o t e t o th e N D P P t h a t t h a t d e c i s i o n m u s t b e r e v i e w e d .
10

W e a l s o c o n d u c te d s o m e o f t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n s th a t w e r e o u ts ta n d i n g i n
c o l l a b o r a ti o n w i th t h e m e m b e r s o f th e H a w k s a n d th e n w e fo r w a r d e d
t h e s e m a t te r s t o t h e N PA . Mr N x a s a n a t h e n a p p o i n te d a - a p r o s e c u t o r
t o - t o l o o k a t th is m a t t e r. It w a s c l e a r t h a t t h is is o n e o f t h e p o li ti c a ll y
c h a r g e d i n v e s t ig a ti o n s .
T h e in i ti a l p r o s e c u t o r w h o w a s i n v o lv e d a c t u a lly b e g g e d d o w n
o n t h e m a t t e r a n d w e - w e h a d a m e e ti n g w it h th e …
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m e a n th e - w h e n y o u s a y i n i t ia l p r o s e c u to r y o u

m e a n t h e o n e w h o d e c li n e d t o p r o s e c u t o r …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : N o , n o . Th e o n e t h a t w a s …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O r th e o n e th a t w a s a p p o in t e d b y ( in t e r v e n e s ) ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h e o n e th a t w a s a p p o i n te d b y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr N x a s a n a ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : M r N x a s a n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . H e o r s h e b e g g e d ( i n te r v e n e s ) ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : J a . S h e - s h e b e g g e d d o w n o n t h e m a t t e r

Page 65 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

A n d t h e n w e - w e h a d a d i s c u s s io n w i th

M r N x a s a n a a n d t h e n w e - w e th e n s a id y o u m u s t l o o k a t a - a
p r o s e c u t o r w h o h a s th e z e a l a n d w h o i s n o t a fr a id …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To d e a l w i t h s u c h m a t te r s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
10

A n d t h e n th e n a m e o f A d v o c a t e G e r r i e N e l

c a m e u p a n d A d v o c a t e N x a s a n a t h e n i n t e r m s o f t h e ir o w n p r o c e s s e s
a p p o i n t e d h i m w i th t h e n e c e s s a r y d e l e g a t i o n s t o d e a l w it h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W i t h t h i s m a tt e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

So

at

th e

time

when

I

had

these

e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h Mr K g a m a n y a n e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d r e a l is i n g h o w th in g s w e r e p a n n i n g o u t
…
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

W e h a d a lr e a d y t a k e n t h e s e - a l l t h e s e

d o c k e ts …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To A d v o c a t e G e r r ie N e l …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 66 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

To b e a b le t o m a k e a d e c is i o n . I n f a c t h e

h a d a lr e a d y c o n s u l t e d w it h s o m e o f t h e w i t n e s s e s a n d h e w a s r e a d y t o
- to proceed …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W i th o n e o f t h e - t h e d o c k e t s . I t h i n k i t i s
D u r b a n C e n tr a l 4 - 4 - 6 …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Of

b r ib e r y

by

murder

to

-

to

General Booysen …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

And - so when - when I was asked by

M r K g a m a n y a n e a b o u t s p e c i fi c a lly t h e s e c a s e s a n d t h e o t h e r o n e w a s
in r e la t io n t o G e n e r a l M a b u l a a n d h is t e a m a n d - a n d a ll e g a t io n s - t h e r e
w e r e a ll e g a t io n s o f t o r t u r e a n d - a n d m u r d e r a n d w e h a d a t t h a t t i m e
r e c e n t ly r e c e iv e d a n a u d i o r e c o r d i n g a s w e ll a s a t r a n s c r i b e - a
tr a n s c r ip t io n o f th a t a u d i o fr o m G e n e r a l B o o y s e n b y o n e o f th e
m e m b e r s o f - w h o w a s i n v o l v e d w i th th a t t e a m w h o b a s i c a lly w a s t e l li n g
h o w p e o p l e w e r e - w e r e t o r tu r e d a n d o n e o f th e s u s p e c ts k ill e d .
S o w h e n I w a s a s k e d a b o u t t h e s e c a s e s I t h o u g h t th a t m a y b e
20

t h e Ac t in g E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r w a n t e d t o - to p r i o r i tis e m a y b e t h e s e
in v e s t i g a t io n s .

To m y s u r p r i s e w h e n w e c a m e b a c k n o t h in g h a d

h a p p e n e d o n th e s e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a r e y o u s a y in g th a t o n th e d a y t h a t y o u h a d a

m e e ti n g w i t h M r K g a m a n y a n e w h e n h e g a v e y o u t h e n o t ic e o f i n te n ti o n
t o s u s p e n d y o u t h a t is th e d a y h e - t h a t is th e o c c a s i o n w h e n h e a s k e d

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you about …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is in v e s ti g a t i o n s ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S p e c i fi c a lly a b o u t t h e s e m a t t e r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e - t h e w a y i n w h ic h h e a s k e d y o u d i d i t - d i d i t

m a k e y o u t o t h in k t h a t h e w a s tr y in g to p l a n w h a t w o u ld h a p p e n in c a s e
you were suspended or …?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

To m e th a t w a s th e - t h e c l e a r in t e n ti o n

b e c a u s e w h y s p e c i f ic a l ly t h e s e - th e s e c a s e s y o u k n o w. I m e a n t h e r e
w e r e a n u m b e r o f c a s e s t h a t w e w e r e d e a l in g w it h .

W h y s p e c i f ic a l ly

t h e s e o n e s ? S o i t - i t w a s c l e a r th a t h e - h e h a d a n in t e r e s t s p e c i f ic a ll y
o n t h e s e o n e s a n d t h e q u e s t io n is w h y h e h a d i n t e r e s t i n th e s e s p e c i fi c
cases.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e - t h e o n e t h e o r y c o u ld b e t h a t n o w t h a t y o u w e r e
g o i n g t o b e - y o u w e r e l ik e ly g o i n g to b e s u s p e n d e d h e h a d t o m a k e
a r r a n g e m e n ts f o r s o m e b o d y t o h a n d le t h e s e m a t te r s . O b v io u s ly h e h a d
- h e h a d to m a k e s u r e th a t a ll t h e m a t t e r s t h a t y o u w e r e h a n d li n g - y o u
20

w e r e h a n d li n g s h o u l d b e h a n d le d b y s o m e b o d y. Th i n g s s h o u ld n o t b e
a t a s t a n d s t il l w h i l e y o u w e r e o n s u s p e n s io n .
T h a t is - t h a t is o n e th e o r y b u t d e p e n d i n g o n t h e f a c t s o n e
m a y a ls o h a v e - o n e c o u l d h a v e h a d th e s i tu a ti o n w h e r e m a y b e t h e y
w e r e a ff e c ti n g w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g b u t t h a t th a t - t h a t d o e s n o t s e e m t o
- t o h a v e b e e n w h a t w a s i n y o u r m i n d . W h a t is y o u r m i n d - w a s i n y o u r

Page 68 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
mind

was

that

he

s p e c i fi c a ll y

-

s p e c i f ic a l ly

wanted

to

make

a r r a n g e m e n ts fo r a f te r y o u h a d g o n e .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

I f y o u w a n t t o b e g e n e r o u s C h a ir is th a t -

t h a t th e o r y t h a t h e w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e th a t t h e s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h e s e m a t te r s w e r e - w e r e d e a l t w i th …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o t h a t in m y a b s e n c e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

S o m e o n e d e a ls w i t h th e s e - w i th t h e s e

matters …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : B u t th e fa c t o f t h e m a t t e r is 1 8 m o n t h s l a te r
a ft e r w e c a m e b a c k …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : N o s u c h t h i n g h a p p e n e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o i f t h e r e w a s th a t k in d o f c o n c e r n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W h y i s i t t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t p r io r i ti s e d a n d
d e a lt w i t h …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A c c o r d i n g ly …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d I h a d t o s t a r t w h e n I c a m e b a c k …

Page 69 of 182

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CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e s e m a t t e r s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A r e p u r s u e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ti ll t h e y r e a c h c o n c l u s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And just to clarify this meeting took place on
11 M a y 2 0 1 5 a n d w h e n y o u w e r e u l ti m a t e ly r e in s t a t e d i t w a s - a s y o u
10

say 18 months later - 23 November 2016?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Now …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I a m s o r r y.

fr o m th e P a n d a y m a t te r.

There in that paragraph 36 apart

Yo u r e f e r r e d t o t h e o th e r m a t te r a s t h e

G e n e r a l J a n M a b u l a t e a m m a t t e r. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h a t i s t h e o n e I a m
r e fe r r i n g t o a s th e - th e to r t u r e a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : M u r d e r c a s e .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Case, yes.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

In c i d e n t a l ly w e h a v e r e c e i v e d r e c e n t ly a

d e c is i o n t o p r o s e c u t e t h e s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h e s e p o li c e o ffi c e r s - G e n e r a l M a b u la a n d
h is t e a m o n t h e s e …

Page 70 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : O n t h o s e t o r tu r e m a tt e r s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

A n d o n t h e m u r d e r c a s e t h e N PA is

c o n s i d e r in g c e n t r a lis i n g t h is m u r d e r a n d t o r t u r e c a s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : B e c a u s e t h e y a r e r e l a te d to e a c h o t h e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d to p r o s e c u t e t h e m a s w e ll .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u - y o u h a v e s a id t h a t i n r e g a r d to t h e P a n d a y

m a t t e r t h e m a t te r w a s - h a d p o li ti c a l c o n n e c t io n s . Is th a t r i g h t?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

T h e o th e r o n e d i d i t a l s o h a v e p o l it ic a l

c o n n e c t io n s o r n o t r e a l ly ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : N o t - n o t r e a lly C h a i r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

B u t t h is M a b u l a te a m a s it w i ll b e c o m e

a p p a r e n t i n m y fu r t h e r t e s ti m o n y h e r e is t h a t t h i s is t h e t e a m t h a t h a s
been used …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

To d is r u p t p e o p l e lik e u s w h o i s tr y i n g to

fi g h t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : D e a l w i t h is s u e s o f …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 71 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C o r r u p t i o n a n d s o fo r t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I t i s t h e v e r y s a m e te a m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W h e n w e a r e i n v e s ti g a ti n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A ll e g a t i o n s o f c o r r u p ti o n a g a i n s t G e n e r a l …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
10

Former

N a t io n a l

Commissioner

General Phahlane …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t th e y w e r e b r o u g h t in …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To i n te r f e r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W i t h o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I n fa c t w e h a d t o g o t o c o u r t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To i n te r d ic t th e m fr o m d o i n g s o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W h ic h c o u r t c a s e w e w o n w i t h c o s ts …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A g a i n s t t h e m a n d t h e p o l ic e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I t h i n k M r Mc B r id e d i d g iv e e v i d e n c e a b o u t -

Page 72 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
about that team …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

As

w e l l,

yes.

Just

on

your

m e e ti n g

with

M r K g a m a n y a n e y o u s a i d th a t h e s a i d to y o u th a t y o u k n o w t h a t w h e n
y o u j o in t h e p o lic e w h e n y o u a r e to l d to g o a n d a r r e s t y o u g o a n d a r r e s t
a n d t h e n y o u m a d e a c e r ta in i n fe r e n c e fr o m t h a t a n d y o u s a id y o u - i t
b e c a m e c l e a r t o y o u th a t h e w a s - h e h a d b e e n in s tr u c te d b y t h e
M i n is t e r.
D o y o u w a n t t o t a lk m o r e a b o u t t h a t? W h y t h e M i n i s t e r ? W h y
10

w o u ld y o u p a r t ic u l a r l y b r i n g t h e M i n i s te r in t o t h a t ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : If h e d id n o t m e n ti o n t h e M i n is t e r.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

E a r l ie r

we

spoke

about

th e

-

th e

a p p o i n t m e n t t o t h a t a c t i n g p o s i ti o n a n d y o u r ig h tl y p o i n t e d o u t th a t a t
E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e m e n t n o o n e w a s a p p o i n te d b u t h i m .
t h a t w e h a v e i n I P I D w h a t y o u c a ll M A N C O .

Just prior to

T h a t is th e - t h e

management …
CHAIRPERSON: Committee?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C o m m i t t e e m e e ti n g …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

W h e r e a l l t h e Ex e c u ti v e M a n a g e m e n t a n d

t h e P r o v i n c i a l H e a d s i ts a n d d is c u s s e s is s u e s r e l a ti n g t o d e p a r t m e n t a l
o p e r a ti o n s a n d s o f o r t h a n d in t h a t m e e t in g th e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r h a d
a s k e d u s t o - to d i s c u s s t h i s is s u e o f t h e r e n d i ti o n c a s e a n d w h a t w e w e r e a l is e d w h e n w e w e r e e n g a g i n g w i th c o l le a g u e s i n t e r m s o f t h is

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m a t t e r w a s th a t M r K g a m a n y a n e w h o is n o r m a lly v e r y t a l k a t iv e i n - i n
t h a t k i n d o f s e tu p w a s c o m p l e te ly q u i e t i n t h a t m e e t in g a n d th e n a f e w f e w m o n th s o r s o l a t e r w h e n a f t e r M c B r id e is - is s u s p e n d e d h e is
a p p o i n t e d t o - t o Ac t .
N o w y o u m u s t u n d e r s t a n d th a t th e - th e r e h a s b e e n a l w a y s a
- a - c o n t a c t w i t h K h u b a a n d K h u b a w il l t e s t if y to t h is b y n o t o n l y
M r S a n d i l e J u ly b u t a l s o t h e M i n i s te r h i ms e l f th a t h e m u s t g o a n d - a n d
t a lk to th e - t h e W e r k s m a n s p e o p l e . S o w h e n y o u - w h e n y o u c o n n e c t
a l l t h e s e d o ts a n d a ls o w h e n K h u b a w a s s e r v e d w it h th e - t h e
10

s u s p e n s i o n l e tt e r s t h e - th e H e a d o f C o r p o r a te S e r v i c e s M s S i y a n d a ( ? )
w a s in s t r u c te d t o g o a n d s e r v e h i m a n d h e m a d e it c le a r t o Mr K h u b a
t h a t t h e i n s tr u c t io n t h a t c a m e w a s t h a t t h e M i n is t e r w a n t e d h i m t o b e
s e r v e d o n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r d a y.
So

it

was

clear

that

these

i n s tr u c t io n s

were

not

K g a m a n y a n e ’s d o i n g p e r s e b u t h e - h e w a s r e c e i v i n g i n s tr u c ti o n a n d I
s u r m is e t h a t t h a t w a s t h e o n ly r e a s o n h e w a s a p p o in t e d .

So that he

c a n e x e c u te a p a r t ic u l a r a g e n d a s t h a t w e r e w a n t e d b y t h e t h e n
M i n is t e r.
W C H A I R P E R S O N : In a n y e v e n t is t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t if - is t h e p o s i ti o n
20

t h a t t h e M i n i s te r - th e p e r s o n t h a t th e M i n is t e r n e e d s t o t a l k t o in
r e g a r d p r i v a t e m a t te r s w o u l d b e t h e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

I t w ill b e th e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r.

That is

correct.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i f - i f t h e M in is t e r h a d t o s a y a n y th i n g i t w o u l d

h a v e - h e w o u l d h a v e h a d to s p e a k to M r K g a m a n y a n e …

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 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s t h e A c t i n g E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

F o r c o m p l e te n e s s t h e m i n u t e o f

t h is d is c u s s i o n th a t y o u h a d o n 11 M a y 2 0 1 5 is A n n e x u r e M S 3 a n d y o u
w i ll fi n d i t p a g e 1 3 7 .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

A n d if y o u h a v e a l o o k a t p a g e 1 3 9 is th e

s t a te m e n t a t a r o u n d l i n e 1 0 w h a t y o u w e r e r e f e r r i n g t o a b o u t w h ic h
g a v e y o u th e i m p r e s s io n th a t th e i n s tr u c t io n s c a m e fr o m a b o v e ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e is a r e fe r e n c e th e r e i n th a t l in e 1 0 t o “ C h i e f ” .
D o y o u k n o w w h o th a t r e f e r e n c e r e la t e s t o ? W h o w a s Mr K g a m a n y a n e
r e fe r r i n g t o a s “ C h i e f ” t h e r e ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

K g a m a n y a n e s a i d “ C h i e f ” h e w a s r e fe r r i n g

t o m e s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is h o w h e u s e d …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : To c a l l e a c h o th e r ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : t o c a l l m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d h e a l s o - y o u w i ll s e e h e s a i d t h a t a t th e p r o b a b ly li n e a b o u t 1 4 / 1 5 . I t s a y s a t t h e e n d :
“ S o it is a d i ffic u lt o n e . A v e r y, v e r y d i ff ic u lt o n e . ”

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 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t i s c o r r e c t b e c a u s e y o u s e e h e n c e I a m
s a y in g in t h e c o n te x t o f o u r - o u r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e la t io n s h i p ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

E n g a g e m e n t a n d - a n d o u r r e l a t io n s h i p i t

w a s c l e a r to - t o m e t h a t h e a ls o h a d d i ffi c u l ty …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : D o i n g t h i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o in g th is , j a .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
10

Yo u k n o w b u t b e c a u s e h e - h e h a d a n

in s t r u c t i o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To d o i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : H e h a d t o d o it b e c a u s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t i s th e r e a s o n h e - h e is o c c u p y i n g th a t
- t h a t p o s i ti o n a t t h a t p o i n t in t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , h m . O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d y o u - y o u a l s o s a y e a r li e r o n in t h e p a g e

20

at 139 to him you say:
“I

understand

your

p o s i t io n

because

probably

o b v i o u s l y y o u a r e b e i n g i n s tr u c te d t o g iv e u s th is
n o t ic e o f s u s p e n s i o n a n d I d o n o t e x p e c t to g e t a
d i ff e r e n t

o u tc o m e

after

that

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n . ”

Page 76 of 182

no

matter

what

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Ye s b e c a u s e i t w a s c le a r t o m e C h a ir t h a t

y o u k n o w i t i s - i t i s a fo r e g o n e c o n c l u s i o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

W h e r e t h is is g o i n g .

So - and I was very

fr a n k w i t h h i m b e c a u s e i t w a s s o m e o n e a s I s a id I w a s - I w a s c l o s e to
a n d I w a s v e r y fr a n k w it h h i m a n d i t w a s c le a r. I m e a n h e - h e n e v e r
d is p u te d w h a t I w a s s a y i n g t o h i m .

I n f a c t e v e n a f t e r I r e c e iv e d t h a t

and I engaged my - my legal team and we wrote to him reasons why I
s h o u l d n o t b e s u s p e n d e d a n d t h e y w e r e v e r y c o m p e ll i n g r e a s o n s b u t w e
10

k n e w t h a t i t is n o t g o i n g t o g iv e u s a d i ff e r e n t o u t c o m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s j u s t a n e x e r c is e . H m .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Yo u k n o w

a n d i n te r ms o f t h e S M S

H a n d b o o k w h ic h w a s u s e d t o - t o d o th is - t h is p r o c e s s . I t i s v e r y c l e a r
u n d e r w h a t c ir c u m s t a n c e s d o y o u s u s p e n d a p e r s o n y o u k n o w. I n t h is
in s t a n c e f o r in s ta n c e S M S H a n d b o o k w i ll s a y i f f o r i n s t a n c e th e r e is a
s u s p i c i o n t h a t w e w il l in t e r f e r e w it h i n v e s t i g a t io n a n d s o f o r t h t h e n t h a t
is w h e n y o u c a n b e o r y o u in t e r f e r e w i t h a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h a t is w h e n
y o u w il l b e s u s p e n d e d .
I n t h i s i n s t a n c e t h e r e w a s a lr e a d y a W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t . S o
20

t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n b a s ic a l ly w a s d o n e . S o t h e r e w a s r e a lly n o b a s i s to
s u s p e n d u s a n d t h e s e a r e t h e i s s u e s th a t w e - w e m a d e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s
o n b u t o f c o u r s e w e k n e w t h a t y o u k n o w - I m e a n I t h i n k th e r e s p o n s e
was a day after we - we made that.

So it was clear there was no

a p p lic a ti o n o f m in d a l s o to w h a t w e h a v e s a id y o u k n o w a n d w e - w e
w e r e in f a c t s u s p e n d e d .

Page 77 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o i f y o u h a v e r e g a r d t o p a r a g r a p h 3 7 i t is

c o r r e c t t h a t y o u w e r e th e n s u s p e n d e d o n 2 1 M a y 2 0 1 5 ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th e n o n 7 J u ly 2 0 1 5 y o u w e r e s e r v e d w i t h
a n o ti c e t o a t t e n d a d is c ip li n a r y i n q u ir y. T h a t is a n n e x u r e …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m - I a m s o r r y M s W e n tz e l .

I th i n k I w o u l d lik e

M r S e s o k o to - to r e a d to u s th a t p a r t s t a r ti n g f r o m l i n e n in e w h ic h
r e l a t e s t o h o w h e s a y s M r K g a m a n y a n e e x p l a i n e d h i s p o s i t io n . I th in k I th in k i t i s - i t i s i m p o r t a n t i n c l u d in g t h e - t h e S e ts w a n a v e r s i o n o r p a r t
10

o f i t is S e ts w a n a a t p a g e 1 - 3 - 9 .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
“ T h i s t h in g i s f in a lly … ”
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : J a .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o M r K g a m a n y a n e s a y s h e r e :
“This

thing

is

fi n a l ly

it is

lik e

as

and

when

( Se ts w a n a ) . T h a t is w h e n y o u a r e to b e c o n f ir m e d .
Yo u a r e a p o l ic e o ffi c e r a n d t h e y s a y th a t b e f o r e
20

( Se ts w a n a ) . B e f o r e w e c a n c o n f ir m y o u a s a p o li c e
o ffic e r g o a n d a r r e s t y o u r f a t h e r.
o n e . A v e r y d i ffi c u l t o n e . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 78 of 182

S o i t i s d i ff ic u l t

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

S o - a n d th is is i n th e c o n te x t o f t h e - t h e

previous …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : P a r a g r a p h w h e r e I s a y t o h i m …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

“ I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r p o s i ti o n a n d

p r o b a b ly o b v i o u s ly y o u a r e b e in g i n s tr u c t e d … ”
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
10

“…to

give

us

this

n o t ic e

of

s u s p e n s i o n a n d I d o n o t e x p e c t a d i ffe r e n t o u tc o m e
a ft e r t h a t n o m a t t e r w h a t r e p r e s e n ta t io n . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

A n d th a t i s w h e n h e i n te r v e n e s i n th is

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o h e b a s ic a l ly c o n f ir m s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w h a t y o u w e r e t h i n k i n g .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t h e i s b e i n g i n s tr u c t e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To - t o s u s p e n d u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o e ffe c tiv e ly s a y i n g w h e n y o u j o in e d t h e p o l ic e
if t h e y - b e fo r e t h e y c o n f ir m y o u . I f th e y s a y g o a n d a r r e s t y o u r f a t h e r.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .

Page 79 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e t o g o a n d a r r e s t y o u r f a th e r.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d w h o a r e t h e y. T h e y a r e y o u r s u p e r i o r s
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u r s u p e r io r s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

A n d i n t h is in s t a n c e w h o is K g a m a n y a n e ’s

superior …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A s A c ti n g Ex e c u tiv e D ir e c t o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h e M i n is t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is th e M i n is t e r. Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o o n 7 J u ly 2 0 1 5 y o u w e r e s e r v e d w it h a

n o t ic e to a t t e n d a d is c ip li n a r y i n q u i r y. I t i s A n n e x u r e M S 4 o n p a g e 1 5 9 .
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d th e n y o u a ls o t h e n r e c e iv e d a c h a r g e

s h e e t w h ic h i s M S 5 o n p a g e 1 6 2 ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And what were those charges?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C h a ir s h o u l d I r e a d t h e c h a r g e s ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .

Page 80 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Unless they are too long then you can just

m e n ti o n t h e e s s e n t ia l a ll e g a t io n s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . Yo u c a n j u s t s u m m a r is e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

Maybe

th e

e s s e n ti a l

a ll e g a t io n s

without

n e c e s s a r i ly r e a d in g …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A ll o f t h e m t o s a y c h a r g e 1 w a s t h a t - t h e a ll e g a t io n
w a s t h a t i t w a s fr a u d a n d t h a t t h i s is w h a t I h a d d o n e a c c o r d i n g t o t h e m
o r s o m e t h in g t o t h a t e ffe c t . I f i t is g o i n g t o b e e a s y. If i t is g o in g t o b e
10

d i ff ic u l t fo r y o u m a y b e y o u c a n r e a d - r e a d i t .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C h a ir I t h i n k a s I - I s a i d e a r l ie r t h e n u b o f
t h e - t h e c h a r g e s a n d m a y b e I s h o u l d - I s h o u ld r e a d t h e m C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a t is fi n e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h e r e is a ls o a q u o t e o n p a g e 11 o f y o u r

a ffi d a v i t i f t h a t is o f a s s is t a n c e t o y o u fr o m th e c h a r g e s h e e t .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Ye s .

I t h in k C h a i r w h e n y o u l o o k a t

annexure - 162 those are the criminal charges.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d t h e n t h e - o n - o n - m y s ta t e m e n t o n o n 3 8 i t is m o r e a b o u t t h e - th e d is c i p l in a r y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

S o w h e n y o u l o o k a t 3 8 o r t h e d is c ip li n a r y

c h a r g e a n d in f a c t a t 3 9 t h e d i s c ip li n a r y c h a r g e y o u w il l s e e i t s a y s :
“ Yo u S e s o k o a n d M c B r i d e a l te r e d t h e r e p o r t w h ic h

Page 81 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
h a d - w h ic h h a d b e e n h a n d e d o v e r t o t h e N PA a n d
deleted

i n fo r m a t i o n

in c r i m i n a t i n g

L i e u t e n a n t-

G e n e r a l A n w a r D r a m a t t h e f o r m e r N a ti o n a l H e a d o f
D P C I a n d / o r S ib iy a t h e P r o v i n c ia l H e a d o f D P C I D P C I G a u t e n g fr o m t h e r e p o r t i n o r d e r t o r e a c h a
conclusion

that

Dramat and

Sibiya

have

been

e x o n e r a t e d b y I P I D w h e n y o u k n e w o r o u g h t to h a v e
k n o w n t h a t t h e fi n a l I P I D R e p o r t o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4
r e c o m m e n d e d th a t D r a m a t a n d S i b i y a b e c r i m i n a ll y
c h a r g e d . B y a l te r i n g t h e r e p o r t o f J a n u a r y y o u a n d

10

S e s o k o h a v e m a d e y o u r s e l f g u il ty o f d is h o n e s ty a n d
d e f e a t i n g t h e e n d s o f j u s t ic e . ”
S o t h a t w a s t h e - th e n u b o f t h e - t h e d is c i p l i n a r y c h a r g e
a g a in s t u s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o th e - th e a l le g a ti o n t h a t y o u h a d a l te r e d th e fir s t

r e p o r t w a s a p i ll a r o f t h e c h a r g e s ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t w a s t h e p i ll a r o f t h e c h a r g e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : N o m a tt e r h o w m u c h w e tr i e d t o e x p la in …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

These

issues

even

at

the

-

at

th e

d is c i p l i n a r y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

I t w a s c l e a r t h a t th e i n t e n ti o n h a s a l r e a d y

made or

Page 82 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h e d e c is i o n h a s a lr e a d y b e e n m a d e t h a t

we must be removed …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : B e c a u s e n o o n e w a s w i ll in g t o li s t e n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To t h a t d e s p i te w h a t th e A c t - I P I D A c t s a y s
in r e la t io n t o h o w w e d o o u r w o r k .

D e s p it e w h a t t h e I P I D R e g u l a t i o n

s a y s in r e l a ti o n h o w w e d o o u r w o r k .
10

D e s p i te w h a t o u r in t e r n a l

s t a n d a r d o p e r a ti n g p r o c e d u r e s a y s h o w w e d o o u r w o r k .

No one was

w i ll in g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To l o o k a t t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I s e e t h a t i n th e c h a r g e s h e e t t h e y s a id y o u w e r e
g u il ty o f d e f e a t in g th e e n d s o f j u s ti c e .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
ends

of

j u s ti c e

Th e c h a r g e - y o u w e r e c h a r g e d w i t h d e f e a t in g t h e
by

r e c o m m e n d in g

in

the

second

report

that

General Dramat and General Sibiya should not be charged.
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

B u t a c tu a lly y o u r p o s i t i o n w a s t h a t y o u w e r e a c tu a l ly

e n s u r i n g t h a t t h e r e w a s j u s t ic e ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

E x a c tly.

B e c a u s e i f th e y w e r e c h a r g e d t h a t w o u l d b e a n

in ju s t ic e ?

Page 83 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

E x a c tly C h a ir.

A n d u l ti m a t e ly t h e N PA i ts e l f w h i c h w a s c h a r g i n g y o u

w i t h t h is c h a r g e d r o p p e d c h a r g e s a g a i n s t t h e t w o o f th e m .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

E x a c tly C h a ir.

T h e r e f o r e c o n fi r m in g th a t y o u w e r e s e e k i n g t o e n s u r e

t h a t th e r e w a s ju s t ic e b e c a u s e t h e y w o u l d n ’ t h a v e w i t h d r a w n t h o s e
c h a r g e s i f t h e y t h o u g h t t h a t w o u ld n o t a c c o r d w it h c h a r g e s ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Mr Sesoko the charge sheet in the

d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g is a t p a g e 1 9 8 i f y o u c o u l d j u s t c o n f ir m t h a t ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Page?
1 9 8 i t’s A n n e x u r e … [ in t e r v e n e s ].

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t .
N o w w h a t w a s t h e u l t i m a te r e s u lt o f y o u r

d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

C h a ir, I w a s d is m is s e d o n t h e 1 6 t h o f

A u g u s t w h e n I w a s in h o s p it a l , I w a s h o s p i t a l is e d f o r d e p r e s s io n
b e c a u s e w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d is t h a t t h e d is c i p li n a r y i n q u ir y w a s s e t
20

d o w n f o r a b o u t a w e e k a n d th e d a y s p r i o r to t h e 1 6 t h i t a s c l e a r t o m e
t h a t n o m a t t e r w h a t d e f e n c e w e a r e p u t ti n g , n o m a t t e r w h a t e v i d e n c e
w e a r e t r y i n g t o s h o w t h e r e w a s n o i n te r e s t in t h a t. N o w w h e n I l e f t th e
d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g o n t h e 1 5 t h I w a s n o t w e ll . I a c t u a ll y d i d n o t e v e n
r e a l is e t h a t I w a s d e p r e s s e d a n d w h e n I g o t h o m e m y w i fe s a i d , n o
y o u ’r e n o t fi n e , I m u s t t a k e y o u to a d o c t o r. W e n t to a d o c t o r a n d th e n

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t h e d o c t o r s a i d , y o u a r e n o t w e ll a t a l l y o u a r e d e p r e s s e d a n d th e n h e
g a v e m e s o m e m e d i c a t i o n t o b e a b l e t o s le e p – w i th i n s tr u c ti o n t h a t
fir s t th in g i n t h e m o r n in g I m u s t g o t o a p s y c h ia tr is t , h e w r o t e th e
r e fe r r a l le t t e r a n d I w e n t t o c o n s u l t p s y c h ia tr is t , w h o t h e n i m m e d i a t e ly
h a d m e a d m it t e d i n h o s p i ta l f o r d e p r e s s io n , I s p e n t t w o w e e k s in
h o s p i ta l o n d e p r e s s i o n .

W h i le t h a t h a p p e n s t h e d is c i p l in a r y o n t h e

o th e r s i d e c o n ti n u e s , m y le g a l t e a m i n f o r m s m e th a t .

It w a s c l e a r t o

t h e m t h a t n o m a t te r w h a t h a p p e n s th a t d is c i p l i n a r y w a s s u p p o s e d t o
e n d o n t h a t d a y. N o m a t t e r h o w m u c h t h e y tr i e d t o p u t fo r t h t h a t I a m
10

n o t w e ll a n d I ’ m i n h o s p i t a l t h a t w a s n o t t a k e n in t o a c c o u n t .

In fact

t h e y s a y t o m e t h a t t h e y e v e n s u g g e s t e d t h a t t h e m a t t e r b e t e m p o r a r i ly
a d j o u r n e d s o t h a t th e y c a n tr y a n d g e t h o l d o f m e w h e r e v e r I w a s to
b r i n g m e s o t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n c o u l d s e e m y c o n d i ti o n a n d t h a t w a s
a ls o r e f u s e d .

S o I n e v e r g o t to te s ti fy b e c a u s e I w a s i n h o s p i ta l , I

n e v e r g o t t o m i ti g a te b e c a u s e m y l e g a l te a m i n f o r m e d m e C h a ir, t h a t w e
n e e d t o t a k e in s tr u c ti o n o n m i ti g a t io n , t h a t n e v e r h a p p e n e d a n d a s a
r e s u l t o f th a t I w a s d is m is s e d in m y a b s e n c e . I t w a s r e a lly a tr a u m a tic
e v e n t f o r m e a n d my f a m il y.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A n d th e n th e r e w a s a n a r b i tr a ti o n ?

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h e r e w a s a n a r b i tr a t io n s u b s e q u e n t t o

t h a t a n d t h e n m y l e g a l te a m a n d m y e m p l o y e r r e a c h e d a s e t tl e m e n t
a g r e e m e n t th a t I b e r e - in s ta t e d . I m u s t h a s t e n t o s a y C h a ir, th a t I w a s
c o n v i c te d o n t h e b a s is o f a te s t i m o n y o f o n e w i tn e s s , A d v o c a te M u s i.
N o w t h e c h a r g e a g a i n s t m e , a s y o u w o u l d h a v e r e a li s e d C h a ir is t h a t I
altered a report.

A d v o c a t e M u s i n e v e r g a v e a n y t e s ti m o n y t h a t I

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a l t e r e d r e p o r t , in fa c t, w h e n m y l e g a l te a m c h a ll e n g e d h i m o n t h is i s s u e
t o s a y, d o e s h e k n o w w h e th e r I a l te r e d t h e r e p o r t , h e s a id , n o I d o n ’ t
k n o w if h e a l t e r e d t h e r e p o r t e x c e p t w h a t I h e a r d fr o m M r K h u b a , t h a t
w a s h is r e s p o n s e .

S o fr o m a s i m p l e le g a l lo g i c , y o u c a n ’t c h a r g e m e

f o r a l te r i n g a r e p o r t a n d t h e r e is n o e v id e n c e t h a t is p l a c e d b e f o r e a
d is c i p l i n a r y i n q u ir y t h a t s a y s , I ’v e a l t e r e d a r e p o r t . A t b e s t y o u h a v e a
h e a r s a y o f M u s i w h o s a y s h e w o u l d h a v e h e a r d t h a t fr o m M r K h u b a a n d
M r K h u b a i s n o t e v e n c a l l e d t o c o n f ir m t h a t h e w o u l d h a v e s a i d t h a t t o
A d v o c a t e M u s i a n d h i s e m p l o y e r c lo s e s i ts c a s e o n t h e b a s i s o f th a t
10

e v i d e n c e a n d I’ m f o u n d g u i l ty o f t h e s e c h a r g e s . T h a t ’s h o w u p s e t t h i s
w h o le d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s w a s .
CHAIRPERSON:

As I s a id e a r l i e r o n t h e r e w a s – I i n d i c a t e d , I t h i n k in

A p r il t h a t th e q u e s t io n o f w h e t h e r o r n o t I c a n h e a r t h a t e v id e n c e a n d
m a k e a n y fi n d i n g i s s o m e t h i n g t o b e s u b j e c t e d t o a c e r t a i n p r o c e s s , s o
I’ v e h e a r d i t b u t I w o n ’t d o a n y t h in g a b o u t i t u n ti l t h a t p r o c e s s h a s
h a p p e n e d . A s I i n d ic a te d e a r l i e r o n , f r o m t h e s t a t e m e n t it a p p e a r e d th a t
t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g m o r e b e in g s a i d t h a n s i m p ly th a t a h e a r i n g t o o k
p l a c e i n m y a b s e n c e , t h i s is w h a t I w a s c h a r g e d w i t h , I a s k e d fo r a
p o s tp o n e m e n t i t w a s r e fu s e d a n d I w a s f o u n d g u i l ty a n d d i s m is s e d i n
20

m y a b s e n c e w i t h o u t g o i n g b e y o n d t h a t b u t I th i n k th a t w e ’l l s u b j e c t a ll
o f t h i s t o t h a t p r o c e s s w h e t h e r i n th e e n d I – i t s h o u l d b e h e a r d b y
s o m e b o d y e l s e a n d i f s o , h o w in t e r m s o f l a w i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t m u s t
s t il l b e l o o k e d a t a n d s u b m is s i o n s b e m a d e b u t y e s , o k a y l e ts c o n t i n u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W h a t h a p p e n e d w i th t h e d is c i p l in a r y

p r o c e e d i n g s a g a in s t M r K h u b a ?

Page 86 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

C h a ir, a r o u n d S e p t e m b e r w h e n t h e

d is c i p l i n a r y w a s s e t to c o n ti n u e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l m a y b e I m u s t a s k y o u , s in c e M r K h u b a i s g o i n g

t o c o m e a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e , d o n ’t y o u w a n t h i m t o ta lk a b o u t h is o n e o r
is t h e r e s o m e c o n n e c ti o n t h a t … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

There is a connection okay?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Ar o u n d S e p te m b e r, C h a ir … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

W h ic h y e a r, 2 0 1 5 ?

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e r e i s a c o n n e c t io n .

2015.

Ye s .

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h e d i s c ip li n a r y w a s s u p p o s e d to c o n ti n u e ,

it w a s n o w w i t h a d i ff e r e n t C h a ir p e r s o n b e f o r e A d v o c a te Z o n d o w a s
a p p o i n t e d C h a i r a n d – b e c a u s e a t t h a t p o in t I w a s a ls o h o s p i t a l is e d , I
h a d a n a c c i d e n t w i t h m y f o o t a n d I h a d t o g o f o r a n o p e r a t io n .

So,

b e c a u s e I w a s n o t t h e r e , th e n th e y s e p a r a t e d o u r tr i a ls , w h i c h is
p e r f e c t ly fi n e b u t th e n Mr K h u b a r e a c h e d a p l e a b a r g a i n w i th t h e
e m p l o y e r. N o w M r K h u b a w ill t a lk t o t h a t I w o u l d n ’ t w a n t t o ta lk t o h o w
20

t h a t h a p p e n e d b u t M r K h u b a d i d e n g a g e m e o n t h e f a c t t h a t th e r e is
t h is p r o p o s a l t h a t i s p u t o n t h e t a b l e a n d w e h a d a v e r y le n g th y
d is c u s s io n a b o u t i t a n d m y a d v ic e t o h i m w a s t h a t it w a s a b a d id e a a n d
e v e n th o u g h h is l a w y e r h a d i n d ic a te d t o h i m th a t i t’s s o t h a t h e c a n g e t
h is jo b b a c k a n d i t ’s n o t l ik e h e ’s a d m i t ti n g t o a n y w r o n g d o i n g p e r s e
a n d w h a t I s a id , a n d I r e m e m b e r v iv i d ly, I s a i d to h i m , y o u k n o w i n th e

Page 87 of 182

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w o r k t h a t w e d o o u r r e p u ta t io n a n d in t e g r it y is o u r c u r r e n c y a n d o n c e
t h a t i s b e i n g q u e s ti o n e d t h e n i t a ffe c ts y o u r c a r e e r b u t b e t h a t a s i t m a y
h e e n te r e d in t o th a t a g r e e m e n t a n d t h e n h e w a s g iv e n a w r i tt e n w a r n in g
and then

w e w e r e a le r t e d t o th e f a c t t h a t – b y o u r N a ti o n a l

s p o k e s p e r s o n th a t [i n d is ti n c t ] A fr i c a h a s m a d e c o n ta c t w i t h h i m to s a y
t h a t h e w i ll b e r u n n i n g a fr o n t p a g e a r ti c l e to t h e e ff e c t th a t i t ’s
c o n fir m e d t h a t M c B r i d e l i e d , o r s o m e t h i n g to t h a t e ff e c t a n d I t h e n
c o n ta c t e d K h u b a a n d s a id a r e y o u a w a r e t h is is w h a t is h a p p e n i n g a n d
M r K h u b a w a s f la b b e r g a s t e d t o s a y t h e l e a s t t o s a y b u t th is p e o p l e i t
10

m e a n s t h is t h in g s t h e y w e r e d o in g it i n b a d f a i t h a n d h e s a i d , y o u k n o w,
t h e y e v e n m a d e i t c l e a r t o m e th a t I c a n e v e n c o n ti n u e t o b e a w i tn e s s
t o y o u i n y o u r d i s c ip li n a r y s o I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d h o w th is c o m e s a b o u t .
A s a r e s u l t o f t h a t M r K h u b a d e p o s e d a n a ffi d a v i t c o n fir m i n g
w h a t h e w a s s a y i n g t o m e w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s s u r r o u n d i n g
t h e p le a b a r g a i n t h a t h e d i d w it h t h e e m p l o y e r a n d o u r r o l e in th e w h o l e
t h i n g a n d i m m e d i a te ly u p o n M r K g a m a n y a n e b e c o m in g a w a r e o f th a t
a ffi d a v i t , M r K h u b a w a s s u m m a r i ly d is m i s s e d w i t h o u t a h e a r i n g .
R e m e m b e r t h a t p r o c e s s h a d e n d e d a n d h e w a s g iv e n a w r i t te n
w a r n i n g a n d t h e n h e ’s n o w s u m m a r i ly d i s m is s e d … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d h is s u s p e n s i o n w a s u p li f t e d ?

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Wa s u p l i f te d h e is n o w b a c k a t w o r k b u t

b e c a u s e h e h a d d e p o s e d t h a t a ffi d a v it th e n h e is s u m m a r il y d is m is s e d .
N o w i t b e c a m e c l e a r t o u s t h a t , b e c a u s e o f th a t a ffi d a v i t t h e s t o r y t h a t
M r A f r ic a w a s s a y i n g h e w a s g o i n g t o r u n … [i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

Could no longer be run.

Page 88 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
w o u ld .

N e v e r c a m e t o fr u i t io n a s h e h a d h o p e d i t

T h e r e w a s a s to r y t h a t i t w a s r u n b u t i t w a s n o l o n g e r a s i t

w o u ld h a v e b e e n i f t h i s a ffi d a v i t d id n o t c o m e t h r o u g h . S o – a n d I t h in k
t h a t t h e p o w e r s t h a t b e w e r e v e r y u p s e t a b o u t t h is a n d h e n c e , M r
K h u b a w a s d is m is s e d s u m m a r i ly w i t h o u t fo ll o w i n g a n y p r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e r e a s w i th r e g a r d t o o t h e r s i t u a ti o n s w h e n t h e r e

w e r e a ll e g a ti o n s o f m is c o n d u c t t h e r e w o u l d b e a s u s p e n s i o n fir s t b e f o r e
t h e r e w o u l d b e a d is c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g . O n th is o c c a s i o n th e r e w a s n o
s u s p e n s i o n , t h e r e w a s n o d i s c i p li n a r y h e a r in g , h e w a s j u s t f ir e d .
10

MR

M AT T H E W S

SESOKO:

He

was

ju s t

f ir e d

C h a ir,

n o t h in g

w h a ts o e v e r I m e a n , y o u w o u l d h a v e e x p e c te d t h a t t h e y w o u l d t h e n
is s u e h i m w i t h a n o t ic e o f t h e i n te n ti o n t o t a k e d i s c i p li n a r y a c t io n
a g a in s t

him

and

make

a ll e g a ti o n s , w h a t

th e

a ll e g a t io n s , i f t h e

a l le g a ti o n is t h a t h e h a s d e p o s e d a n a ffi d a v i t th e n l e t h i m s a y s o , b u t
nothing of that nature happened.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir is i t a c o n v e n i e n t t i m e to t a k e th e l u n c h

adjournment?
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s w h e r e a r e w e o n t h e s t a t e m e n t n o w, h o w fa r a r e

we?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W e ’r e g o i n g t o n o w p r o c e e d o n p a g e 1 3 f r o m

about paragraph 49.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y n o t h a t ’s f in e w e ’ l l c o n t in u e , i f i t lo o k s l ik e w e

m i g h t n o t b e a s f a s t a s w e w e r e h o p i n g to b e , I t h i n k t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e
is i m p o r t a n t a n d i t ju s t i fi e s i t , b u t w e ’ ll s e e a ft e r l u n c h h o w i t g o e s . I n

Page 89 of 182

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t h e e n d w e m u s t m a k e s u r e t h a t ju s tic e i s d o n e t o h i s e v i d e n c e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir.

W e ’ ll t a k e t h e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t n o w a n d w e l l

r e s u m e a t 2 o ’c lo c k . W e a d jo u r n .
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
IN Q U IR Y R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

M s W e n t z e l I t h i n k Mr S e s o k o ’s s t a t e m e n t is a ls o t o

t h e e ffe c t t h a t i f I a m n o t m i s t a k e n m a y b e i t is n o t h is s t a te m e n t b u t
10

s o m e d o c u m e n t i n t h e b u n d l e I t h i n k i s t o t h e e ffe c t t h a t th e r e is a
ju d g m e n t o r o r d e r o f t h e L a b o u r C o u r t t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n m a d e i n
r e g a r d t o s o m e i n t e r d ic t o r r e v ie w. C h e c k t h a t a n d i f t h e r e is g e t
c o p i e s . O k a y ? A lr i g h t le t u s c o n ti n u e . M a y b e b e f o r e w e c o n ti n u e Mr
S e s o k o in t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t I a m t r y i n g t o th in k b a c k n o w – in t h e
second report you obviously would have given reasons why you thought
t h a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S i b iy a s h o u l d n o t b e c h a r g e d w i t h
m is c o n d u c t o r a n y c r i m e , is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

20

D id a n y b o d y w h e t h e r i t i s t h e M i n i s t e r o r s o m e b o d y

fr o m t h e N PA o r a n y b o d y e v e r e n g a g e w it h y o u r r e a s o n s to s a y b u t
t h e s e r e a s o n s y o u h a v e g i v e n fo r t h is r e c o m m e n d a ti o n in th e s e c o n d
r e p o r t a r e j u s t n o n s e n s e ? Yo u – o r e v e n a r e j u s t w r o n g ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : N o n e w h a ts o e v e r C h a ir p e r s o n . Yo u s e e a s
I w a s s a y in g t h a t i t o n ly t r a n s p i r e d la t e r t h a t t h e r e w e r e a g e n d a s i n t o
t h e w h o le i s s u e . B e c a u s e w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d w a s t h a t a t s o m e p o in t

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a n d I a m s u r e i f M r K h u b a w i ll te s ti fy a ls o a b o u t t h a t . A t s o m e p o i n t Mr
K h u b a a n d M r M a o k a w h o w a s o u r d i r e c t o r le g a l s e r v i c e s e n g a g e d w i t h
p r o s e c u t o r s a t th e N PA a n d A d v o c a t e B a l o y i i f I a m n o t m is ta k e n . A n d
in

t h e ir

d is c u s s i o n

A d v o c a te

Baloyi

was

of

th e

view

th a t

our

in v e s t i g a t iv e c o n c l u s io n i n w h a t w e w e r e r e c o m m e n d i n g i t i n o u r r e p o r t
w a s a c t u a ll y s u s t a i n a b l e . A n d w h e n – a t t h e l a t e r ti m e a g a in w h e n th e y
e n g a g e d w i th h i m t h e n h e a l le g e d ly i n f o r m e d t h e m t h a t a f t e r e n g a g in g
w i t h h is s u p e r i o r s I t h in k th e w o r d t h e y u s e d t h a t h e m u s t j u s t b i t e t h e
b u ll e t . Yo u k n o w. M r K h u b a a n d M r M a o k a d e p o s e d s t a te m e n ts to t h a t
10

e ffe c t w h ic h t h e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r r e f e r r e d t o t h e N PA to s a y t h e y
m u s t lo o k in t o th is i s s u e . O f c o u r s e n o th i n g c a m e o f i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – b u t y o u s a y e a r l ie r o n h e s a id h e c o n c e d e d t h a t
– d id h e c o n c e d e t h a t t h e r e a s o n s g i v e n f o r t h a t r e c o m m e n d a t io n th a t
there should be charges for General Sibiya and General Dramat – did
he accept that…
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Those were good reasons?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s , y e s . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a is t h a t t h a t ?

20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: But later on…
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o a t t h e ti m e – a t t h e ti m e – e x c u s e m e –
a t t h e t i m e th e y w e r e e n g a g i n g e v e n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : B e f o r e th e a c tu a l d e c i s i o n w a s ta k e n .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d t o t h e ir s u r p r is e a t a la t e r d a y I t h i n k i t
c o u l d h a v e b e e n d a y s la t e r t h e n h e s a i d n o t h e y m u s t b it e t h e b u l le t
a ft e r c o n s u l t in g w i t h t h e ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Superiors.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S u p e r i o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o i t w a s c l e a r t h a t e v e n t h o u g h h e h e l d a n
o p i n i o n a t th e ti m e t h a t …
10

CHAIRPERSON: That you – are – they were good grounds.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h e y a r e g o o d g r o u n d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : F o r s a y i n g …
CHAIRPERSON: There should be no charges against you.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h e r e s h o u l d b e n o c h a r g e s b u t o b v io u s ly

someone higher up was saying no, no, no you should…
CHAIRPERSON: They must be charged?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h e y m u s t b e c h a r g e d a n d h e n c e u l t i m a t e ly
t h e d e c i s i o n t h a t w a s ta k e n w a s t h a t t h e y m u s t b e c h a r g e d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W h ic h w a s la t e r c h a n g e d a n d t h e y w e r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Th e c h a r g e s w e r e n o w d r o p p e d a g a i n s t

them.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o y o u k n o w o f n o b o d y w h o e v e r s a i d w e ll t h e r e

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is s o m e t h i n g w r o n g w i t h t h e b a s is f o r y o u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n th a t
General Sibiya and General Dramat should not be charged.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

No.

N o - o n e h a d s a i d t h a t C h a ir.

Ev e n

w h e n y o u r e a d t h e – t h e – t h e W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t n o w h e r e in t h e r e p o r t
are

they

a ll e g i n g

that

our

i n v e s t ig a tiv e

conclusion

and

our

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a s p e r t h e r e p o r t i t is n o t s o u n d i n l a w ? N o n e o f t h a t
is a ll e g e d .

A l l w h a t t h e y a r e s a y i n g is t h a t w e a l t e r e d th e – th e s o

c a l l e d fi r s t r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o n o - o n e c o m e s t o u s a n d s a y b u t h a n g o n
y o u h a v e g o t i t w r o n g h e r e a n d h e r e a n d h e r e y o u k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : B u t y o u s e e t o u s w h a t is a l s o s u r p r is in g i s
that

in

the

work

we

do

it

happens

every

ti m e .

We

make

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t o th e N PA th a t s a y s p r o s e c u t e a n d t h e n th e N PA w i ll
s a y n o w e a r e n o t g o i n g to p r o s e c u t e .

W e a c c e p t t h a t b e c a u s e i t is

w i t h i n t h e ir d o m a i n t o m a k e t h o s e – th e y a r e a n in d e p e n d e n t b o d y t h a t
c a n m a k e th a t d e c i s i o n d e s p i te o u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .

And sometimes

y o u s a y p r o s e c u te a n d s o m e ti m e s y o u s a y d o n o t p r o s e c u t e . W e d o n o t
20

t h i n k t h e r e is e v id e n c e a n d t h e y w il l s a y, n o a c t u a l ly w e t h in k th e r e i s
e v i d e n c e t o p r o s e c u t e . S o it is s o m e t h i n g t h a t is n o r m a l i n o u r
e n v ir o n m e n t . S o n o w t o c o m e a n d t r y a n d m a k e a h u g e th i n g a n d w e
e n d e d u p b e i n g c h a r g e d e v e n c r i m i n a l ly a n d d e p a r t m e n ta ll y a b o u t h a v e
a n o p i n i o n a b o u t y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n i t is c o m p le t e l y a b s u r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m e a n i n r e g a r d t o M r K h u b a t h e b e s t it s e e ms th a t

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c o u l d b e s a i d a g a in s t h i m i s t h a t h e c h a n g e d h i s o p i n io n n o t th e r e p o r t .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

H e c h a n g e d h is o p in i o n fr o m o n e t h a t s a id G e n e r a l

D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S i b iy a s h o u ld b e c h a r g e d t o o n e th a t s a y s t h e y
should not be charged.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s t h e w o r s t t h a t w h a t – t h a t i s t h e b e s t th a t o n e
c a n p u t i t fo r t h e p r o s e c u t o r s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i n r e g a r d t o y o u a n d M r M c B r i d e it c a n o n ly

a m o u n t t o s a y in g w h y d i d y o u r e a c h t h e o p in io n t h a t t h e c o n c l u s i o n th a t
these two should not be charged?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Ye s .

I a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir p e r s o n

c o m p le t e l y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I n fa c t a ls o a s r e g a r d s M r K h u b a h e – i n th e
– M c B r i d e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l m a t t e r h e d e p o s e d a c o m p r e h e n s i v e a ff i d a v i t
a n d I a m s u r e h e w il l t e s t i fy a b o u t i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S h o w i n g w h a t w e r e t h e d i ff e r e n c e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d w h a t i n h is o p in i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C h a n g e d h i s v i e w s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.

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 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Yo u k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o I m e a n t h e r e is a g o o d r e a s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W h y w e – h e c a m e t o t h e c o n c l u s i o n t h a t h e
d i d . T h e r e i s a g o o d r e a s o n w h y I w a s o f t h e v ie w w h e n I e n g a g e d w i t h
h i m t h a t t h e r e w a s n o e v id e n c e t o s u s t a i n a c r i m i n a l p r o s e c u ti o n o r I
m e a n e v e n m is c o n d u c t a g a in s t G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S i b iy a .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d e v e n i f t h e y d id n o t a g r e e w it h y o u r c o n c l u s io n

t h a t o n it s o w n s h o u l d b e n o g r o u n d s t o …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : E x a c tl y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To c h a r g e y o u .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ex a c t ly. Ex a c t l y.

I t is lik e – i t i s li k e ju s t a

s i m p l is t ic e x a m p l e C h a ir. I t is l ik e c h a r g i n g a S u p r e m e C o u r t o r H i g h
C o u r t J u d g e f o r h a v in g a r r i v e d a t a p a r t ic u la r d e c i s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

W h i c h is d i ff e r e n t fr o m m a y b e a S u p r e m e

Court to that.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I t d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s M s W e n tz e l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Mr Sesoko you were

a r r e s t e d o n th e 1 6 t h M a r c h 2 0 1 6 – I a m r e a d in g fr o m p a r a g r a p h 4 9 o n
p a g e 1 3 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . C o u l d y o u …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.

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ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Pardon? It is paragraph 39.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s I a m s a y in g t h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o r r y.

C o u l d y o u e x p l a i n t o t h e C h a ir t h e

c ir c u m s ta n c e s o f y o u r a r r e s t ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C h a i r w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d w a s t h a t w e w e r e
fir s t a p p r o a c h e d b y t h e s e i n v e s t ig a t o r s fr o m t h e D P C I u n i t c a l l e d C AT S .
I t is t h e C r i m e s A g a i n s t T h e S t a t e .
N o w a s w e u n d e r s t a n d th is u n i ts m a n d a t e i n t h e D P C I i t i s

10

a c t u a ll y to i n v e s t ig a t e s e r io u s c r i m e s a g a i n s t t h e s t a te l ik e y o u r c a s e s
o f t r e a s o n , t e r r o r is m a n d s o f o r t h .

S o i t w a s a c tu a l ly in t e r e s ti n g th a t

t h e y a r e n o w i n v e s t ig a ti n g a c a s e o f fr a u d a n d d e f e a ti n g th e e n d s o f
ju s t ic e .
I n c i d e n t a l ly t h e s a m e u n i t is t h e v e r y s a m e u n i t t h a t w a s
in v e s t i g a t in g M in is t e r G o r d h a n a n d t h e s o c a l le d S A R S r o g u e u n i t. In
f a c t w h e n t h e y c a l le d u s t o t h e ir o ff ic e s f o r a w a r n in g s ta t e m e n t t h e – it
w a s o u r f il e s a n d t h e n t h e ir – t h e i r r o u g e u n i t fil e w a s th e r e a s i f i t w a s
– th e y w e r e t r y i n g t o s h o w u s t h a t t h e y a r e a ls o d o in g th a t – t h a t
20

in v e s t i g a t io n .
But

we

submitted

comprehensive

s t a te m e n ts e x p la in i n g t h i s w h o l e i s s u e .
a b o u t a fi le .

s ta t e m e n t s

as

w a r n in g

M y w a r n in g s t a te m e n t w a s

If m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e l l I t h i n k M r K h u b a ’s c o u ld

h a v e b e e n t w o f il e s , a r c h le v e r fi l e s . M r M c Br i d e w a s p o s s ib l e f iv e / s i x
a r c h l e v e r fi le s .

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I th in k w e s u b m i t te d o u r s ta t e m e n t o n a T h u r s d a y o r o n a
Fr id a y b u t o n S u n d a y w e g o t m e s s a g e s t h a t w e m u s t c o m e to t h e ir
o ffic e s a d e c is io n h a s b e e n m a d e th a t w e m u s t b e c h a r g e d c r i m i n a l ly.
W e p r e s e n t e d o u r s e lv e s t o t h e ir o ffi c e s a n d th e y p r o c e s s e d u s
t h e y t o o k o u r fi n g e r p r in t s a n d s o fo r t h .

L o w a n d b e h o l d f o r th e fir s t

ti m e w e r e a li s e d t h a t a c tu a lly th e y h a d w a r r a n t s f o r o u r a r r e s t . N o w w e
a r e s e n io r g o v e r n m e n t o ffi c i a l s a n d n o t f li g h t r is k t o a n y o n e . A n d a ls o
g iv e n th e n a t u r e o f t h e a l le g a t i o n s a g a i n s t u s i n m y h u m b l e v ie w t h e y
d i d n o t w a r r a n t a J 5 0 W a r r a n t o f Ar r e s t .
B u t b e th a t a s i t m a y w e w e r e t a k e n t o p o l ic e c e ll s w h e r e w e

10

w e r e k e p t fo r s o m e f e w h o u r s u n ti l w e a p p e a r e d i n c o u r t a n d th e n
g r a n t e d R 1 5 0 0 .0 0 b a il .
I t w a s th e m o s t h u m il i a t i n g m o m e n t o f m y li f e .

Because I

n e v e r i m a g i n e d th a t I w il l g e t a r r e s t e d in t h a t f a s h io n p u r e l y f o r d o i n g
my job.
CHAIRPERSON: Well…
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w a s t h i s a i r e d o n t e l e v is i o n – y o u r

arrest?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
20

Ye s . I t w a s a v e r y b i g s p e c t a c le b e c a u s e

t h e r e w a s m e d i a a ll o v e r. It w a s o n r a d i o , o n t e l e v is i o n . As w e w e r e
w a lk in g w e w e r e b e i n g f o ll o w e d b y j o u r n a l i s ts a n d s o f o r th .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I s a i d e a r l ie r t h i s m o r n i n g t h a t I h a v e g iv e n

in s t r u c t i o n s t h a t a l l d o c k e t s o r f il e s th a t w ill s h o w m e w h a t i n f o r m a t i o n
t h e r e le v a n t p r o s e c u t o r s o r p e o p le a n d t h e p o l ic e r e l e v a n t p o li c e
o ffic e r s h a d b e fo r e t h e m b e fo r e t h e y m a d e c e r t a i n d e c i s i o n s s h o u l d b e

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gathered.
I w a n t t o t a k e t h is o p p o r t u n i ty n o w t h a t y o u h a v e s a id h o w
m u c h in f o r m a t io n y o u p l a c e d b e fo r e t h e m y o u r s e l f , M r M c Br id e a n d M r
K h u b a . I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o a s s is t t h e c o m m is s i o n t o g e t a s m u c h o f t h a t
d o c u m e n t a ti o n a s p o s s ib l e .
I h a v e b e e n t o ld t h a t th e r e h a v e b e e n c h a ll e n g e s in g e t t i n g
t h e s e d o c u m e n t s . I th in k i t h a s b e e n m o n t h s th a t I a s k e d th a t t h e y b e
found. Whether it is court papers in regard to those of you who went to
c o u r t o n m a t t e r s w h ic h m a y b e r e l a t e d t o w h a t w e a r e d e a li n g w it h i n
10

r e g a r d t o y o u . W h e t h e r i t is c o u r t p a p e r s , c o u r t j u d g m e n ts . W h e t h e r i t
is p o lic e – I m e a n t h e p r o s e c u t o r s fi l e s , e v e r y t h i n g i n te r ms o f b e in g
c h a r g e d o n m a t t e r s th a t r e l a t e t o t h is .

I w a n t t o s e e a ll o f th a t .

B e c a u s e I w a n t to s e e w h e t h e r o n – o n w h a t w a s b e f o r e v a r i o u s p e o p l e
– v a r i o u s o ffi c e s th e r e c o u l d b e a b a s i s f o r a n y b o d y t o m a k e t h e
d e c is i o n s t h a t w e r e m a d e a n d – s o p le a s e if y o u c o u l d s p e a k to a ls o Mr
M c Br i d e a n d M r K h u b a i f y o u c o u l d a l l a s s is t th e r e le v a n t p e r s o n w i t h i n
t h e c o m m is s i o n i s M s L e r a t o B u t h e l e z i .

T h e r e a r e i n v e s ti g a to r s w h o

h a v e b e e n w o r k i n g o n i t a s w e l l b u t s h e – i f y o u – i f y o u a r e in t o u c h
w i t h h e r s h e w il l k n o w w h o – w h a t t o d o . I w a n t to s e e a ll o f t h a t.
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C h a ir w e w i ll d e fi n i t e ly d o s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A ll t h e i n f o r m a t io n w e h a v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W e w il l s u b m i t t o t h e c o m m i s s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .

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A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y d e a lt
w i t h t h e f a c t t h a t o n t h e 1 s t N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 6 t h e c a s e a g a in s t y o u w a s
w i t h d r a w n a p p a r e n tl y b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e n o t a n y w i t n e s s e s a n d th e
f a c t t h a t M r J u l y r e f u s e d t o te s ti fy.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w is i t c o r r e c t t h a t h e r e a ft e r p u r s u a n t to a
f u r th e r – s o r r y I j u s t – I h a v e f o r g o t t e n t h e n a m e o f w h a t it w a s . A s a
r e s u l t o f t h e a p p e a r a n c e b e f o r e t h e b a r g a i n i n g c o u n c il a n a g r e e m e n t
a n d a n a r r a n g e m e n t w a s m a d e t h a t y o u w o u l d b e r e i n s t a te d ?
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And that occurred on the 23rd November

2016?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h e – a r b i tr a ti o n s a t o n t h e 2 2 n d .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d t h e – t h e a g r e e m e n t w a s t h a t I w il l g o
b a c k to w o r k o n t h e 2 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . S o i t w a s th e n e x t d a y ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

C h a ir w e w il l g e t t h e j u d g m e n t a n d th e

a r b i tr a ti o n o r c o p i e s o f t h e p r o c e e d i n g s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Yo u t o u c h e d o n a l it t l e b i t e a r li e r w h a t t h e

s t a te o f p l a y w a s w h e n y o u r e t u r n e d t o y o u r w o r k a t – a t I P I D a n d t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n s t h a t y o u h a d l e ft a g o o d y e a r – e ig h te e n m o n t h s

Page 99 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
p r e v i o u s ly a n d w h e r e t h e y w e r e a t – a t t h is s ta g e . C o u ld y o u d e a l in
s o m e d e t a il n o w w i t h th o s e in v e s ti g a t io n s a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d h a s
b e e n h a p p e n i n g s i n c e y o u h a v e b e e n b a c k in y o u r j o b ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n I – I r e t u r n e d t o w o r k

o b v i o u s l y I r e s u m e d m y d u t ie s a s th e N a ti o n a l H e a d o f In v e s ti g a t io n
a n d th e f ir s t th in g I – I w a s c o n fr o n t e d w i t h w a s t h a t M r M c B r i d e in m y
a b s e n c e b e c a u s e h e c a m e b a c k e a r l i e r t h a n m e i n O c to b e r.

He had

a p p o i n t e d a t e a m w h ic h i s i n my u n i t .
W e c a l l i t A N S I T A N a t io n a l S p e c i a lis e d I n v e s ti g a tiv e Te a m t o
10

in v e s t i g a t e a ll e g a t io n s o f c o r r u p t i o n a g a i n s t fo r m e r Ac t in g N a t io n a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r G e n e r a l P h a h la n e .
T h e c o m p l a i n t h a d c o m e fr o m M r P a u l o S o lo m o n a n d w h e n I
s t a r t e d e n g a g i n g w i t h t h e t e a m I w a s a b l e to e s ta b l is h t h a t M r P a u lo
S o lo m o n h a d a p p r o a c h e d I P I D i n M a r c h a lr e a d y w h i ls t w e w e r e o n
s u s p e n s i o n a b o u t t h e s e a ll e g a t io n s . A n d t h a t I P I D h a d d o n e n o th i n g t o
in v e s t i g a t e t h e s e a ll e g a t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is w a s n o w i n N o v e m b e r ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t w a s in N o v e m b e r n o w 2 0 1 6 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.

20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d u p o n g e t ti n g a c o m p l a i n t o f t h is n a t u r e
–

u p o n r e c e iv i n g

c o m p l a i n t fr o m

e s t a b li s h e d th is t e a m .

Mr

S o lo m o n

Mr

Mc B r i d e

then

So when I came back I had to manage this

team.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d o y o u r e c a ll a r o u n d w h e n Mr M c B r i d e h a d c o m e
b a c k fr o m h is o w n s u s p e n s i o n ?

Page 100 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : M r M c B r i d e c a m e – w e n t b a c k t o t h e o ff ic e
in O c t o b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh so he had come back…
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : O f 2 0 1 6 .
CHAIRPERSON: Just the previous month?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s t h e p r e v io u s m o n th .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. H m .
MR

M AT T H E W S

SESOKO:

So

the

team

had

a lr e a d y

started

in v e s t i g a t in g t h is m a tt e r a n d h a d a ls o w e n t t o t h e r e s i d e n ti a l p r e m is e s
10

– a n e s ta t e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t b e f o r e th a t . S o p r i o r to M r M c Br i d e c o m i n g b a c k
in O c t o b e r a ll a l o n g t h e A c t i n g E x e c u t iv e H e a d w a s Mr …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : K g a m a n y a n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Kgamanyane.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d h e d i d n o t h i n g t o – t o i n v e s ti g a te t h is
m a t t e r.

I n f a c t a s p a r t o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n w e w e r e a b le t o e s t a b l is h

t h a t h e h a d m a d e a c o n t a c t w i th G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e to m a k e h i m a w a r e
20

o f t h e s e a ll e g a t io n s . A n d h e a p p o i n te d M r G o m o w h o w a s a c t i n g in m y
p o s i ti o n t o – to t h e d e s i g n a t e d i n v e s ti g a to r i n th is m a t t e r. H o w e v e r t h e
t e a m w h e n t h e y – t h e y r e c e iv e d t h is d o c k e ts a f t e r a p p o in t m e n t b y Mr
M c Br i d e t h e y fo u n d t h a t n o in v e s t i g a t io n w a s d o n e o n t h is – o n t h is
m a t t e r. S o …
CHAIRPERSON:

S o I g u e s s i t m ig h t n o t t h e r e f o r e b e a c c u r a te t o s a y

Page 101 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
n o t h i n g h a d b e e n d o n e c o m p l e t e ly i n t h e s e n s e th a t a t l e a s t f r o m t h e
p o i n t o f v i e w o f M r K g a m a n y a n e h e h a d a p p o in t e d s o m e b o d y t o b e t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r b u t th e n t h a t p e r s o n h a d d o n e n o t h i n g .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : J a n o i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s d o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Yo u s e e t h e is s u e is a n d t h e e v e n ts t h a t

f o ll o w e d s h o w s a – a p a t t e r n t h a t t h e r e w a s n e v e r a n i n t e n t io n to – t o
in v e s t i g a t e t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Because the very same person who was

s u p p o s e d l y s u p p o s e d t o d o t h is in v e s t i g a t io n u p o n o u r r e t u r n t h e n
r e q u e s t e d a tr a n s f e r b a c k to t h e p o lic e to t h e C I b e c a u s e h e w a s i n C I .
S o h e g o t tr a n s f e r r e d b a c k t o t h e C I e n v ir o n m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h h e w a s fr o m C r i m e In t e ll i g e n c e ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s
CHAIRPERSON: Okay
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

S o h e g o t a tr a n s fe r t o t h e p o l ic e to t h e

C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

B u t w a s h e n o t s u p p o s e d to g o b a c k a n y w a y u p o n

y o u r r e t u r n b e c a u s e h e w a s a c ti n g a n d h a d c o m e fr o m th e r e .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

No, no, no he was appointed in IPID.

K g a m a n y a n e h a d a p p o i n te d h i m .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A s a D i r e c t o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

Page 102 of 182

Mr

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A N S I T.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh but then he got him to act.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o h e w a s a p e r ma n e n t e m p lo y e e o f I P I D .
CHAIRPERSON: Of IPID yes.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : B u t b e c a u s e – s o th is s h o w s u s t h a t th e r e
w a s s o m e s h e n a n i g a n s th a t w e r e h a p p e n i n g b e c a u s e i m m e d ia t e l y u p o n
our return.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
10

M r K g a m a n y a n e g o t a tr a n s f e r i n i ti a t e d b y

t h e M i n i s t e r a n d G e n e r a l N t le m e z a t o t h e D P C I .
CHAIRPERSON: And without now…
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

W i t h o u t t h e c o n s e n t o f t h e E x e c u t iv e

D ir e c t o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e M i n i s t e r n o w w a s s t il l Mr N a t h i N h l e k o ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Ye s .

A n d th e n M r G o m o a ls o r e q u e s t e d

tr a n s fe r b a c k t o t h e S A P S a n d h e w a s tr a n s f e r r e d b a c k t o th e C I .
CHAIRPERSON: So they – they both elected to get out of IPID?
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Upon your return.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d M r Mc B r i d e ’s r e t u r n .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e a s p r io r t o t h a t th e y h a d b e e n p a r t o f th e s ta ff

Page 103 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
of IPID?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d t h e v e r y s a m e M r G o m o w h e n w e w e r e
n o w fi g h t in g a n d t h e r e w a s a l l t h i s in t e r f e r e n c e w i t h o u r in v e s t i g a t io n
a n d w e – w e w e r e c a l le d b y th e P o r t fo li o C o m m i t t e e o n P o l ic e h e c a m e
o n t o u r w it h G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e t o s u p p o r t G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e a g a i n s t u s
o n t h e s e a l l e g a ti o n s a g a i n s t G e n e r a l P h a h la n e a s t h e y w e r e b e in g
v e n til a t e d a t t h e P o r t fo li o C o m m i t t e e o f P o l ic e .
10

S o it w a s c l e a r t o u s

t h a t t h e r e w a s n e v e r g o in g t o b e a n y i n v e s ti g a ti o n a g a in s t G e n e r a l
P h a h l a n e b y th is g r o u p a n y w a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l y o u m i g h t o r m i g h t n o t h a v e s k ip p e d t o g e t t o

t h a t p o in t .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: But now that you are at that point why would he go to
t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e b e c a u s e h e w a s n o l o n g e r i n I P I D h e w a s b a c k
in C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e – M r G o m o ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

What – remember he was now in – he got

tr a n s fe r r e d to w o r k f o r t h e S A P S i n C I , C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e i n S A P S .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e t h e n in v i t e d I P I D

and

P h a h la n e

SAPS

and

General

w a s s t ill

t h e A c t in g

N a ti o n a l

C o m m i s s i o n b e c a u s e t h e s e in v e s ti g a t io n s w e w e r e c o n d u c ti n g a g a in s t
h i m w a s o v e r t h e m e d i a a n d I t h i n k t h e P o r t f o li o C o m m i t t e e a t t h e ti m e
in t h e ir w is d o m t h e y t h o u g h t i f t h e y c a l l u s … ;

Page 104 of 182

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O r i f t h e y c a ll e d e v e r y b o d y.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o m i g h t h a v e h a d s o m e th in g to d o w i th t h is .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Yo u k n o w t o b r i e f t h e m w h a t is h a p p e n i n g

o n t h i s is s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h e n h e a ls o c a m e a s p a r t o f t h e d e le g a ti o n
10

of General Phahlane.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o w h e n – w h e n – t h e in v e s ti g a t io n s ta r t e d
in e a r n e s t . G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e t h e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w e r e l e a d i n g t h o s e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s I w a s n o t l e a d in g th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . I g u e s s t h a t m u s t b e 2 0 1 7 t h e n ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : N o 2 0 1 6 .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S ti ll 2 0 1 6 ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S t i ll 2 0 1 6 i n N o v e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Ye s .

S o fir s t t h e – t h e r e w e r e t h r e a t s to

o n e o f o u r in v e s t i g a t o r s M r M a n d l a M a h l a n g u – d e a t h t h r e a t s t o h is l if e
v ia s ms m e s s a g e s .

H e r e c e iv e d t w o s m s m e s s a g e s a n d i n th o s e

Page 105 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
m e s s a g e s t h e y a ls o m a d e th r e a ts t o t h e E x e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r M r M c B r i d e
a s w e l l a s Mr P a u l o S o lo m o n .

A n d th e n a s a r e s u l t o f t h o s e t h r e a ts

t h e n w e p r o c u r e d t h e s e r v i c e s o f M s Th e r e s a B o t h a t o a s s is t i n tr a c k i n g
w h e r e t h e s e m e s s a g e s w e r e c o m in g fr o m .

Fr o m F i d e li t a a s e c u r i ty

c o m p a n y. B u t a ls o w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d w a s th a t G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e th e n
in s t r u c t e d a n d i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t t h e r e w a s – o r u n d e r t h e p r e te x t t h a t
t h e r e w a s a s e c u r i ty b r e a c h to h is r e s id e n c e .

I n fa c t w e h a v e

s t a te m e n ts fr o m C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e o ffi c i a ls w h o a t t e n d e d to – to th a t
c o m p la i n t o f G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e a n d t h e y d e p o s e a s t a t e m e n t to u s t h a t
10

u p o n a t t e n d i n g t o th a t c o m p l a in t th e y h a v e a c tu a l ly e s t a b lis h e d t h a t
t h e r e w a s n o s e c u r i ty b r e a c h .

In f a c t i t w a s a l e g i ti m a t e I P I D

in v e s t i g a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : B u t G e n e r a l P h a h la n e n o t o n ly d id th a t – h e
c a l l e d t h e M a b u l a t e a m fr o m N o r t h W e s t to s t a r t a n i n v e s ti g a t i o n o n t h e
p r e t e x t o f t h e s e c u r i ty b r e a c h .

B u t th i s w a s i n fa c t t h e ir w a y o f

in t e r fe r i n g w i t h o u r in v e s ti g a t io n . A n d th e y a c t u a l ly e v e n a p p r o a c h e d
t h e w i tn e s s e s t h a t h a d a lr e a d y d e p o s e d s t a te m e n ts to o u r i n v e s t ig a t o r s
o n t h e s e a l le g a ti o n s o f c o r r u p t io n a g a i n s t G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e . A n d t h i s
20

M a – G e n e r a l M a b u l a a n d h is t e a m a p p r o a c h e d t h e v e r y s a m e
w i t n e s s e s . A s a r e s u lt o f t h a t w e l a i d c r i m in a l c h a r g e s o f d e fe a ti n g th e
e n d s o f j u s ti c e a g a in s t b o th G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e a n d t h e M a b u l a t e a m
a n d w e i n v e s t ig a te d th o s e m a tt e r s a n d r e fe r r e d t h e m to t h e N PA a n d
t h e N PA d e c l i n e d to p r o s e c u te t h e s e m a t t e r s .
S a y i n g t h a t t h e y w i ll r e c o n s i d e r t h e p r o s e c u ti o n w i th t h e

Page 106 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
c o r r u p ti o n in v e s ti g a t i o n s t h a t w e w e r e s ti ll b u s y c o n d u c ti n g .

Now we

w e r e o f t h e v i e w t h a t t h e r e w a s e n o u g h e v id e n c e t o - t o p r o s e c u t e . S o
w e a r e n o t h a p p y w it h th e d e c is i o n . W e t o o k u p t h e s e i s s u e s w i t h t h e
N PA

and

the

fo r m e r

N a t io n a l

Director

of

P u b lic

P r o s e c u ti o n

Advocate Shaun Abrahams.
R a is in g o u r c o n c e r n in r e l a t i o n t o t h i s m a t te r. N o w t h is w a s
n o t t h e o n ly m a t t e r th a t w e r a i s e d c o n c e r n w i t h . I t w a s a ls o i n r e la t io n
t o t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h a t w e a ls o c o n d u c t e d a g a i n s t M r K g a m a n y a n e
h i m s e l f o n a l le g a ti o n s o f c o r r u p ti o n a n d c o n tr a v e n t io n o f t h e P F M A .
10

N o w w e - w e h a d a lo t o f c o r r e s p o n d e n c e s w i t h t h e N PA i n r e l a t i o n to
t h is is s u e a n d r a is i n g o u r c o n c e r n h o w d e c is io n s w e r e t a k e n in r e la t io n
t o o u r m a t t e r s a n d to o u r s u r p r i s e t h e o n l y - t h e - t h e r e s p o n s e t h a t w e
a r e g e t t in g fr o m th e N D P P w a s t h a t h e a g r e e s w i t h th e d e c is io n s
w i t h o u t g iv i n g u s d e t a i l r e a s o n w h y i n t h e i r v i e w t h a t th e s e c a s e s w e r e
n o t p r o s e c u ta b l e .
I n my v i e w i f I m a k e a r e p r e s e n t a ti o n th a t I a m n o t h a p p y w i t h
t h e d e c i s i o n t h a t w a s t a k e n b y a p a r t ic u l a r p r o s e c u t o r a n d t h e n I - I
w o u ld l ik e y o u to r e v ie w. W h a t I e x p e c t i s th a t e v e n i f y o u a g r e e w i th
t h e d e c is i o n t h a t w a s t a k e n b u t a t l e a s t t a k e a n e ff o r t t o e x p l a i n w h a t is

20

t h e l e g a l b a s is t h a t d e c is i o n b u t t o s a y t h a t t h e r e a r e n o p r o s p e c ts o f a
s u c c e s s fu l p r o s e c u ti o n i s n o t g o o d e n o u g h b e c a u s e i t is a s g o o d a s
s a y in g I d e c li n e t o p r o s e c u t e i n a n y e v e n t . S o t h o s e a r e t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is j u s t th e c o n c lu s i o n w i t h o u t …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : H m .
CHAIRPERSON: The reasons?

Page 107 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : E x a c tl y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Yo u k n o w. S o t h o s e w e r e - w e r e th e is s u e s
t h a t w e - w e w e r e r a is in g . I m e a n i n o n e o f th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e s C h a ir
I - I r e m e m b e r w e ll G e n e r a l P h a h la n e h a s a l w a y s b e e n m a k in g
a l le g a ti o n s t h a t w e a r e b e in g u s e d b y P a u l O ’ S u l liv a n . H e e v e n w e n t t o
a n e x te n t w h e n w e w e r e a t t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e o f c a l li n g u s o r o u r
o r g a n i s a t io n O P I D .
O ’ S u l liv a n - y o u k n o w O f o r O ’ S u ll iv a n .
10

S o h e w a s c a l li n g

O P I D . S o h e w a s m a k i n g a l le g a ti o n s t h a t w e - w e h a v e o u ts o u r c e d o u r
in v e s t i g a t io n to …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To - t o P a u l O ’ S u ll iv a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : O n e o f t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e s th a t c a m e f r o m
A d v o c a t e S h a u n A b r a h a m s w a s p u s h i n g t h e v e r y s a m e n a r r a ti v e .

To

s a y n o h e h a s d e c li n e d t o p r o s e c u t e . H e a g r e e s w i th th e m . G iv in g t h e
c ir c u m s ta n c e s t h a t w e h a d o u t - o u ts o u r c e d o u r in v e s ti g a t io n t o - to
P a u l O ’ S u l li v a n o r t o a p r iv a te in d i v i d u a l . S o m e th i n g t o t h a t e ff e c t . I
20

c a n n o t r e m e m b e r th e e x a c t w o r d s .
S o m e t h i n g th a t w e c o u l d n o t u n d e r s t a n d . W e s a y h o w d o y o u
come to that conclusion before you engage with us. We even had a - a
m e e ti n g w i th h i m .

M y s e lf a n d t h e E x e c u tiv e D ir e c t o r tr y in g to r a is e

t h e s e is s u e s a n d o u r c o n c e r n th a t y o u k n o w h o w t h e s e d e c i s i o n s a r e
t a k e n a n d t h e - t h e i n e r ti a in - in ta k i n g t h i s P h a h l a n e i n v e s ti g a t i o n

Page 108 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
f o r w a r d i n c l u d i n g th e f a c t t h a t t h e ( “ A F U ” ) A s s e t F o r fe i tu r e U n i t w a s n o t
a c ti n g o n - o n t h e s e m a t t e r s .
I t w a s a v e r y f u n n y m e e ti n g b e c a u s e t h e - t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f
t h e N PA s i t ti n g t h e r e w e r e a c tu a lly e v e n e x c l u d e d fr o m t a lk i n g . I t c a m e
t o a s e r i o u s c o n fr o n ta t io n b e t w e e n M r M c B r id e a n d M r S h a u n A b r a h a m s
t o a n e x t e n t t h a t I h a v e to - I h a d to c a l m d o w n M r M c Br i d e t o s a y a t
t h e e n d w e n e e d to g e t th is m e e ti n g t h r o u g h a n d tr y t o g e t s o m e
s o l u ti o n to t h i s p r o b le m b e c a u s e h e w a s w i lli n g to l e a v e a t th a t ti m e t h e
w a y t h e - th e m e e ti n g w a s c h a r g e d .
10

S o t h e - t h e - th e s e d e c is i o n s d id n o t m a k e s e n s e t o u s . W e
c o n ti n u e d t o e n g a g e t h e N PA e v e n a f t e r h e w a s r e m o v e d a s t h e N D P P.
W e e n g a g e d D r R a m a i t e w h o w a s a p p o i n t e d to a c t a s t h e N D P P a n d
r a i s e th e s a m e is s u e s w i t h h i m a n d D r R a m a i t e u n d e r t o o k t o a p p o i n t
A d v o c a t e Mc A d a m s to lo o k a t a ll t h e s e c a s e s a n d b e a b l e t o d e a l w it h i t
a n d w e s t a r t e d s o m e w o r k w i t h h i m t o s t a r t d e a l i n g w i t h th e s e i s s u e s .
U n f o r t u n a t e ly h e w a s n o t o ffi c i a l ly a p p o i n te d b y D r R a m a i t e
s o h e c o u l d n o t t a k e t h e m a t te r s f u r t h e r u n til r e c e n tl y A d v o c a t e B a to h i
w a s a p p o i n te d t o th a t p o s i t io n a n d t h e n w e e n g a g e d f u r t h e r w i t h h e r
a n d i t is o n ly n o w t h a t w e s e e th e s e m a tt e r s b e in g ta k e n s e r i o u s l y a n d

20

b e i n g r e v ie w e d b y - b y t h e N PA .
CHAIRPERSON:

These matters that you are talking about are they

m a t t e r s w h e r e y o u h o l d th e v ie w o r h a v e t h e p e r c e p t i o n t h a t t h e r e f u s a l
t o p r o s e c u t e w a s n o t b a s e d o n o r d e c is i o n s n o t t o p r o s e c u te w e r e n o t
b a s e d o n le g it i m a t e l e g a l g r o u n d s ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r p e r s o n a n d i n o u r

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 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
correspondence …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W e s h a r p l y r a i s e d t h a t. W e - w e r a i s e d th e
is s u e t h a t w e b e l ie v e t h a t t h e N PA is b i a s e d i n t a k i n g s o m e o f th e s e
d e c is i o n s . J u s t t o m a k e a n e x a m p l e C h a ir. In o n e o f t h e m a tt e r s w h e r e
M r O ’ S u ll iv a n i s t h e c o m p la i n a n t . T h e tw o s e n io r a d v o c a t e s i n t h e N PA
t o o k a d e c is i o n t h a t t h e - t h e o ff ic ia ls fr o m th e M a b u l a t e a m m u s t b e
p r o s e c u t e d a n d t h e y d id a m e m o r a n d u m t o A d v o c a te M a l o y ( ? ) t o t h a t
e ffe c t.
10

To o u r s u r p r is e w h e n t h e d e c is io n - t h e y - t h e y in f o r m e d u s
a b o u t t h i s a n d - a n d w e e v e n g o t h o ld o f - o f t h a t m e m o r a n d u m . To o u r
s u r p r is e w h e n t h e d e c is i o n c a m e t h e d e c i s i o n c a m e a s d e c l in e t o
p r o s e c u t e . W h e n w e q u e s ti o n e d w h y d e c l i n e t o p r o s e c u te t h e r e s p o n s e
w e g e t i s n o I a g r e e w i t h t h e D P P w i t h o u t g iv i n g u s r e a s o n s w h a t is th e
le g a l r e a s o n f o r n o t p r o s e c u t in g .
E s p e c i a l ly i n t h e f a c e o f s e n i o r a d v o c a te s i n th a t o ffic e
s a y in g t h e r e i s a c a s e t o b e a n s w e r e d h e r e . T h e y e v e n w a r n e d in t h e ir
m e m o r a n d u m t h a t t h e N PA c o u l d e v e n s u ff e r c iv il s u i ts if t h e s e m a t t e r s
are not prosecuted.

20

S o i t s h o w s a n d t h e r e is a p a t te r n i n - i n o t h e r

m a t t e r s a l s o th a t s h o w s t h a t t h e r e w a s t h a t k i n d o f b ia s a n d - a n d
u n w il li n g n e s s o n th e p a r t o f t h e N PA d u r i n g th a t ti m e t o t a k e o u r
m a t t e r s s e r io u s ly a n d p r o s e c u t e th e m .
I n f a c t th e P a n d a y m a t t e r n o t h i n g h a p p e n e d w i t h i t a n d e v e n
w h e n w e p u r s u e d i t . W e w e r e t o ld t h a t n o th e r e is a - a c h a ll e n g e b y
o n e o f th e c o m p la i n a n ts a n d s o b u t n o t h i n g w a s h a p p e n i n g b u t w h a t is

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 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
s tr a n g e is t h a t j u s t b e f o r e t h e - t h e j u d g m e n t o n t h e r e m o v a l o f
M r S h a u n - A d v o c a t e S h a u n A b r a h a m s t h e n t h e d e c is i o n w a s m a d e t o
p r o s e c u t e . S o y o u o n ly h a v e t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h o u t a n y th in g n e w h a v in g h a p p e n e d ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : E x a c tly. Yo u k n o w y o u a s k y o u r s e l f b u t w h y
d o e s i t h a p p e n n o w.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Yo u k n o w a l l o f a s u d d e n t h e r e is th is

d e c is i o n n o w.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Yo u k n o w w h e n a l l o f th e ti m e w e h a v e b e e n
a s k in g a n d n o t h i n g w a s h a p p e n i n g . S o i n o u r v i e w …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h e r e w a s n e v e r a n i n te n ti o n t o - to d e a l

w i t h t h e s e m a t te r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : O n ly w h e n i n m y v i e w th e r e w a s p r o b a b l y a
- a r e a lis a ti o n t h a t h e m a y b e r e m o v e d t h a t h e th o u g h t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : M a y b e h e m u s t t h e n m a k e th e r i g h t d e c is i o n
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : O n - o n t h i s m a tt e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

But these

o th e r

Page 111 of 182

matters

n o t h in g

had

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
h a p p e n e d . O n l y n o w w i th t h e n e w N D P P t h a t t h e r e - t h e r e i s a c t i o n s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

O n th e s e m a t t e r s .

The Mabula matter for

in s t a n c e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : As I h a v e i n d i c a t e d e a r l i e r o n t o r t u r e t h e r e
is a d e c i s i o n a lr e a d y t o p r o s e c u te o n i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w t h e s e m a t te r s w h e r e t h e r e h a v e b e e n r e f u s a l s d e c is i o n s t o r e fu s e to p r o s e c u t e t h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t.
10

Are you

a b l e t o g r o u p t h e m in o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r u n d e r a p a r ti c u la r c a t e g o r y
m a y b e s u c h a s i t is c a s e s t h a t h a v e g o t p o l i tic a l c o n n e c t io n s ?

I t is

c a s e s t h a t r e l a t e s to c o r r u p ti o n t h a t i n v o lv e s p e o p le w h o m a y h a v e
b e e n i n h ig h p l a c e s w i th i n G o v e r n m e n t o r p e o p l e w h o a r e c l o s e to
p e o p l e i n h i g h o ffic e i n G o v e r n m e n t o r a n y t h i n g l ik e t h a t o r i s it d i ff ic u l t
t o g r o u p t h e m t o g e th e r ? T h e y a r e j u s t d i ff e r e n t c a s e s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C h a ir th e y c a n b e g r o u p e d i n t h a t w a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h e P a n d a y m a tt e r f o r i n s ta n c e g o t p o li ti c a l
…
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C o n n e c ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h e - th e o t h e r m a t t e r s it i s h i g h r a n k in g

p o li c e o ffi c e r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 112 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W e a r e ta lk in g G e n e r a ls …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t a r e in v o lv e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

L a t e r o n in m y s t a te m e n t I w il l t a l k a b o u t

t h e m a t t e r s r e l a ti n g t o C I …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W h ic h i n v o lv e d a ls o s e n i o r p o lic e o ffic e r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W h e r e w e s t u c k . W e c a n n o t m o v e fo r w a r d
…
CHAIRPERSON: HM.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W i t h t h o s e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : B e c a u s e o f r e f u s a l t o d e c la s s i f y d o c u m e n t s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S o i t is - i t is - y o u k n o w w h e n - w h e n w e -

20

w e in v e s ti g a t e l o w r a n k i n g o ffi c e r s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W e n e v e r g e t a n i n te r f e r e n c e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : B u t y o u s ta r t i n v e s t ig a ti n g G e n e r a ls …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h e n y o u g e t t h is k i n d o f i n te r f e r e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

H e n c e I s a id th a t w e e v e n h a d t o g o t o

court …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To g e t a n o r d e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To s to p t h e M a b u l a t e a m …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : F r o m i n te r f e r in g w i th o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

W e ll t h is C o m m i s s io n is s u p p o s e d t o a l s o l o o k

a t h o w th e N PA m a y h a v e a ls o p l a y e d a r o l e i n a d v a n c i n g S t a t e C a p t u r e
o r o u t o f c o r r u p t i o n p r o te c te d c e r t a i n p e o p l e a n d it m a y w e ll b e th a t a
lo t o f th e c a s e s y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t a r e c a s e s t h a t c o u l d s h o w w h a t
y o u a r e t a lk in g a b o u t.
E i th e r p a r t o f S t a t e C a p t u r e o r d e c i s i o n s n o t to p r o s e c u t e
being

based

on

c o r r u p t io n

and

such

l ik e

others

-

such

lik e

c o n s i d e r a ti o n s a n d I w o u l d l ik e y o u a n d y o u r c o ll e a g u e s i n - i n I P I D t o t o c o n s i d e r lo o k i n g a t a ll th o s e c a s e s a n d l o o k in g a t t h e t e r m s o f
20

r e fe r e n c e o f t h e C o m m is s i o n a n d s e e in g w h e t h e r y o u a r e a b l e t o s e l e c t
a l l t h o s e t h a t y o u t h i n k fa ll u n d e r o u r t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e .
W h e r e th e r e is a r e l u c ta n c e o r r e fu s a ls t o p r o s e c u t e w h e n
a c t u a ll y t h e r e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n p r o s e c u t io n s b u t n o t c a s e s w h e r e i t
m i g h t s a y y o u k n o w - y o u k n o w s o m e b o d y th e r e c o u l d b e d i ff e r e n t
v ie w s a n d s o o n …

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M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h e r e y o u s a y l o o k it r e a lly d o e s l o o k l ik e t h e r e
w a s s o m e r e a l ly il le g i t i m a te r e a s o n s f o r n o t p r o s e c u t in g a n d i f y o u a r e
a b l e t o p u t t h o s e to g e th e r d o s o a n d b e in t o u c h w it h th e l e g a l t e a m s o
t h a t u l ti m a t e ly m a y b e t h e C o m m i s s io n c a n lo o k a t a ll o f t h e m .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

We

w il l

-

we

w i ll

c e r t a i n ly

do

so

C h a ir p e r s o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
10

B e c a u s e i t i s p a r t o f t h e s u b m is s i o n s th a t

we have made to the NDPP …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A d v o c a t e B a to h i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : To s a y a ll t h e s e c a s e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h e s e a r e t h e i s s u e s w e h a v e w i th t h e m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d w e f e e l t h a t y o u k n o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : J u s t ic e w a s n o t d o n e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : I n th e s e m a t te r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

No

p le a s e

do

th a t

together

w i th

whatever

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e y o u m i g h t h a v e e x c h a n g e d w i th t h e N PA w h e r e y o u
w e r e q u e s ti o n i n g w h y c e r t a in d e c is io n s w e r e b e i n g ta k e n o r w h y

Page 115 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
p r o s e c u t i o n s w e r e n o t f o l l o w in g . S o a r r a n g e t o d o t h a t a n d i t m a y w e ll
b e t h a t w h e t h e r o ffic i a l ly I P I D d o e s t h a t o r j u s t in d i v i d u a ls w h o a r e
in v o lv e d w i t h i n I P I D y o u k n o w.
A ls o c o m e a n d a s s i s t th e C o m m is s i o n w it h e v id e n c e th a t that could be looked at.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

W e w i ll c e r ta in ly d o th a t C h a ir p e r s o n .

I

think also as part of the attachment to m y statement I have attached
some of the correspondences …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t w e - w e e x c h a n g e d w i t h t h e - t h e N PA
and raising …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A s p e c if ic c o n c e r n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : W i th r e g a r d t o th e s e m a t te r s . I m e a n w e m y h o n e s t v ie w is t h a t s o m e o f t h e G e n e r a l s w e r e b e i n g p r o t e c te d o r
s o m e o f th e o ff ic e r s t h a t w e r e b e i n g u s e d t o p u t a p a r tic u la r - t o p u s h a
p a r t ic u l a r a g e n d a w e r e b e i n g p r o t e c t e d fr o m p r o s e c u t io n .
o th e r s

20

were

b e in g

prosecuted.

I

m ean

ju s t

to

Whereas

i ll u s tr a t e

t h is

C h a ir p e r s o n .
A s p a r t o f t h e i n te r f e r e n c e w i t h o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d t o
c o u n t e r o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n th e M a b u l a t e a m a r r e s te d Mr P a u l O ’ S u l li v a n
when there was a court order that says they must not arrest him. They
f u r th e r c h a r g e d t w o o f o u r in v e s t i g a t o r s M r M a h l a n g u a n d Mr B i n a n g .
I n t h e in d ic t m e n t p a r t o f t h e c h a r g e is t h a t t h e y p r e t e n d e d t o b e I P I D

Page 116 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
in v e s t i g a t o r s b u t t h e y a r e I P I D i n v e s ti g a to r s .
Now I cannot fathom how a prosecutor draws up a charge
s h e e t l ik e th a t t h a t s a y s I a m c h a r g i n g y o u f o r b e i n g - f o r p r e t e n d in g t o
b e a n I P I D i n v e s t ig a t o r w h e n i n f a c t y o u a r e a n I P I D in v e s t i g a t o r.

In

a n y e v e n t in m a t t e r s o f t h is n a t u r e lik e w h e r e a p e r s o n p r e te n d s t o b e a
- a p o l ic e o ffi c e r o n e o f t h e i m p o r ta n t s ta t e m e n t s t h a t y o u m u s t o b t a i n
is fr o m I P I D o r f r o m t h e S A P S t o s a y w h e th e r t h is p e r s o n is in fa c t a
m e m b e r o f t h e p o l ic e o r a m e m b e r o f I P I D .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : N o s u c h t h i n g h a p p e n e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : N o o n e c a m e t o u s t o s a y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

A r e t h e s e p e o p l e y o u r i n v e s ti g a to r s o r n o t

…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : B u t t h e y a r e b e in g c h a r g e d f o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. I - I want to - I want all of those cases because
w e - w e c a n n o t h o p e to c l e a n u p c o r r u p t io n in t h is c o u n tr y i f t h e r e is a
20

lo t o f c o r r u p ti o n w i t h i n l a w e n fo r c e m e n t a g e n c ie s .

We - we cannot.

Yo u k n o w a n d i t i s n o t g o o d fo r t h e c o u n t r y f o r p e o p le t o k n o w t h a t i f
y o u a r e a l o w r a n k in g o ffic i a l y o u w il l b e a r r e s t e d . Yo u w i ll b e c h a r g e d .
Yo u w i ll b e b r o u g h t to c o u r t b u t i f y o u a r e h i g h r a n k i n g y o u
w i ll b e p r o te c te d fr o m p r o s e c u t io n . Yo u c a n d o w h a te v e r c o r r u p t io n a n d
d o c r i m e . Yo u w il l b e p r o t e c t e d . I t c a n n o t b e a n d i f w e c a n n o t s o r t th a t

Page 117 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
o u t th e n w e j u s t h a v e n o c h a n c e o f s o r ti n g o u t c o r r u p ti o n in th is
c o u n tr y. S o e v e r y b o d y n e e d s to k n o w t h a t w h e n o u r C o n s ti t u t i o n s a y s
e v e r y o n e is e q u a l b e f o r e t h e l a w t h a t is w h a t e v e r y b o d y w i ll i m p l e m e n t .
T h a t is w h a t c o u r t s w il l - w il l e n s u r e is i m p l e m e n te d . T h a t i s
w h a t p o l ic e w i ll i m p le m e n t . T h a t is w h a t e v e r y b o d y - e v e r y b o d y w il l d o .
Yo u k n o w t h e l a w i s t h e o n ly p l a c e w h e r e w e a r e a ll s u p p o s e d to b e
e q u a l a n d - a n d i f y o u h a v e a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e t h e g e n e r a l p u b li c th i n k s
t h a t t h e la w - p e o p l e a r e n o t e q u a l b e f o r e t h e l a w. Yo u b r in g t h e la w
in t o d i s r e p u te a n d t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s f o r la w a n d o r d e r i n t h e c o u n tr y
10

w o u ld b e f a r r e a c h i n g .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s W e n tz e l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

M r S e s o k o c o u l d y o u a ls o p l e a s e te ll t h e

C h a ir a b o u t t h e i n te r f e r e n c e t h a t y o u h a d fr o m B r ig a d i e r N c u b e a n d t h e
M a b u l a t e a m a p p r o a c h i n g y o u r i n v e s t ig a t o r s a n d o ff e r i n g b r i b e s th a t
you refer to in paragraph 65?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
a lr e a d y

i n d ic a te d

th a t

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
we

had

to

go

to

C h a ir a s I h a v e
court

to

interdict

G e n e r a l M a b u la ’s te a m fr o m i n t e r fe r i n g w i th o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d
20

c o u n t e r i n v e s t ig a ti n g u s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - a n d r e a l ly …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d …
CHAIRPERSON: For - for one law enforcement agency to have to go to
c o u r t t o g e t a n in t e r d i c t a g a i n s t o t h e r la w p e o p l e t o s a y d o n o t in t e r f e r e
w i t h o u r ; to r e a c h th a t s ta g e th in g s m u s t b e v e r y b a d .

Page 118 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C h a i r i t w a s b a d . Yo u s e e fr o m o u r s id e w e
tr i e d e v e r y t h i n g a n d u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t w e w e r e w i t h i n t h e s a m e
M i n is tr y. W e tr ie d o u r b e s t to g e t t h is t h i n g r e s o lv e d i n t e r n a l ly. S o w e
approached

th e

N a t io n a l

-

of

course

we

could

not

approach

G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e b e c a u s e h e is t h e o n e w h o b r o u g h t t h e m in …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

To c o u n t e r o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n b u t a f t e r h e

w a s s u s p e n d e d b y M i n i s t e r M b a l u la t h e n w e a p p r o a c h e d th e th e n A c t in g
N a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r G e n e r a l M o t h i b a t o s a y w e n e e d to r e s o lv e t h i s
10

is s u e . It c a n n o t b e th a t p e o p le t h a t w e a r e i n v e s ti g a ti n g a s I P I D s t a r t
in v e s t i g a t in g u s . P o li c e h a s g o t a l m o s t 2 0 0 p o l ic e o ff ic e r s .
S u r e l y y o u c a n n o t t e l l m e t h a t y o u c a n n o t fi n d a p o lic e o ff ic e r
t h a t w il l - i s n o t s u b j e c t o f o u r i n v e s ti g a t io n t o i n v e s ti g a t e u s if th e y
b e li e v e t h e r e i s s o m e w r o n g d o in g o n t h e p a r t o f o u r in v e s ti g a t o r s . W e
a r e n o t i m m u n e t o in v e s t i g a t io n a n d w e - w e w e l c o m e a n in v e s t i g a t io n
if t h e r e is a n y w r o n g d o i n g b u t y o u c a n n o t a s k t h e v e r y p e o p l e w h o a r e
in v e s t i g a t in g to in v e s t i g a t e u s .
S u r e l y th e r e w i ll n o t b e a n y o b j e c ti v i ty i n th a t i n v e s t ig a ti o n
a n d th a t is e x a c tl y w h a t J u d g e Tu c h t e n f o u n d th a t t h e s e o ff ic e r s w e r e

20

c o n fli c te d a n d in f a c t in h i s j u d g m e n t s a id t h a t t h e p o l ic e m u s t g o b a c k
a n d l o o k a t t h e ir A c t s o t h a t th e r e is n o c o n f lic t o f i n te r e s t i n h o w th e
p o li c e c o n d u c t t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n .
W e h a v e a s i m i l a r p r o v is io n i n o u r A c t t h a t o u r i n v e s ti g a to r s
c a n n o t i n a m a t te r w h e r e th e y h a v e g o t a c o n fli c t o f i n t e r e s t . S o w e w e tr ie d i n - in t h a t k in d o f e n g a g e m e n t a n d G e n e r a l …

Page 119 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t h a d t o g o t o c o u r t fo r a J u d g e to …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To m a k e a d e c is io n ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o b o d y w i th i n S A P S h ig h u p c o u l d s a y t h i s is

nonsense?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is s h o u l d b e s o r t e d o u t . L e t u s g e t o t h e r p e o p l e t o
in v e s t i g a t e ?
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : Ex a c t ly C h a ir. To G e n e r a l M o t h ib a ’s c r e d i t
h e i n s tr u c te d h i s l e g a l t e a m t o s it w it h o u r l e g a l t e a m a n d tr y a n d
r e s o l v e th is - t h i s m a t t e r.

W e h e l d a m e e t in g w i th th e m a n d a n

advocate

of

fr o m

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e

the
fr o m

O ffi c e

th e

S t a te

G e n e r a l M o th i b a ’s

A t t o r n e y.

o ffic e

came

When
and

say

th e
my

in s t r u c t i o n fr o m G e n e r a l M o t h i b a i s t h a t w e m u s t r e s o lv e th is is s u e th e y
r e fu s e d . T h e y r e f u s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h o w c o u ld t h e y r e f u s e ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C h a ir i t is - i t is a fu n n y t h i n g . E v e n w h e n
w e w e n t to c o u r t t h e p e o p le w h o w e r e o p p o s i n g o u r a p p l ic a t i o n i t w a s
20

G e n e r a l M a b u la a n d h is t e a m .

Th e N a ti o n a l C o m m is s i o n e r w a s n o t

o p p o s in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y e t th e y a r e u n d e r t h e N a ti o n a l …
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : C o m m i s s i o n e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o m m i s s io n e r ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Ye s C h a ir.

T h a t is w h a t h a p p e n e d .

Page 120 of 182

The

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
Judge read out a barrage of correspondences that we have been
s e n d i n g t o t h e p o l ic e m a n a g e m e n t t o tr y a n d g e t t h i s t h i n g r e s o lv e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

A n d m a d e i t c le a r I P I D t r i e d to g e t t h is

t h i n g r e s o lv e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : A n d t h e r e i s n o c o m m i t m e n t o n t h e p o l ic e to
g e t t h is t h i n g r e s o lv e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

I t is t h e s a m e t h i n g t h a t i s h a p p e n i n g w i t h

t h e is s u e o f d e c l a s s i fic a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

We are now in court.

W e - w e - t h e r e is

li ti g a t i o n p e n d i n g o n th is is s u e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

B e c a u s e t h e y a r e r e fu s i n g t o d e c l a s s i fy

d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e n e e d f o r o u r in v e s t i g a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i f w e d o n o t h a v e J u d g e Tu c h t e n ’s j u d g m e n t h e r e
…
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: We have got it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e g e t a c o p y. H a v e w e g o t i t?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . W e h a v e g o t i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e ll n o w t h a t y o u h a v e t o u c h e d o n t h e i s s u e o f
d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n . Yo u m a y o r m a y n o t b e a w a r e t h a t l a s t w e e k I h e a r d
e v i d e n c e fr o m C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e i n r e g a r d t o t h e c h a ll e n g e s h e m e t w it h

Page 121 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
tr y i n g t o g e t t h e n a t i o n a l - v a r io u s N a ti o n a l P o lic e C o m m i s s i o n e r s t o
d e c l a s s i fy v a r i o u s d o c u m e n t t h a t h e n e e d e d f o r h is o w n i n v e s ti g a t i o n s
a n d I - I h a v e in d ic a t e d th a t I w i ll w a n t t o - I w i ll w a n t t h e N a t io n a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r t o b e a p p r o a c h e d s o th a t h e c a n g iv e - h e c a n s a y
w h e t h e r h e i s p r e p a r e d to d e c l a s s i fy t h o s e d o c u m e n ts i n s o f a r a s t h e y
a r e r e l e v a n t fo r t h e C o m m i s s io n ’s i n v e s t i g a t io n o r n o t a n d i f h e is n o t
w h a t t h e r e a s o n s a r e b u t I a s k e d h i m w h e th e r t h e r e w a s n o t li ti g a ti o n
b e c a u s e I th o u g h t I h a d r e a d s o m e w h e r e a b o u t t h e r e b e i n g l i ti g a t i o n
r e l a ti n g to d e c la s s i f ic a ti o n a n d r e l a ti n g t o c l a s s i f ic a t i o n b e i n g fo r
10

ill e g i t i m a te r e a s o n s a n d s o o n .
S o m a y b e th a t is - t h a t i s w h a t I w a s th i n k i n g a b o u t .

If - i f

t h e r e i s l it i g a t io n th a t I P I D is i n v o lv e d in .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. W h a t h a d h a p p e n e d
w a s t h a t a f te r w e h a d h a d a n M O U w i t h th e I n s p e c to r - G e n e r a l o f
I n t e lli g e n c e w e s t a r t e d g e tt i n g i n v o lv e d i n in v e s ti g a t io n s t h a t a r e
h a p p e n in g i n th e C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e p a r ti c u la r ly t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e
Account.

There

is

widespread

c o r r u p t io n

h a p p e n in g

in

that

e n v ir o n m e n t .
N o w th e - t h e f ir s t i n v e s t ig a ti o n a c t u a ll y w e - w e g o t in v o lv e d
20

is t h e s a m e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e w a s i n v e s ti g a t i n g
a g a in s t G e n e r a l M d lu li . N o w t h e r e a s o n w e g o t in v o lv e d i s a ls o t h a t i t
w a s a ls o r e fe r r e d to u s t h r o u g h P a r li a m e n t b e c a u s e o f t h e fr u s t r a t io n s
t h a t C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e w a s e x p e r i e n c in g a n d w e w r o t e to t h e p o l ic e
a b o u t d e c la s s i f y i n g s p e c i fic a lly t h o s e m a t t e r s .
T h a t - i t w a s i n f a c t o u r fir s t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w i t h t h e m i n

Page 122 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
r e l a ti o n

to

c la s s i f ic a t i o n .

We

G e n e r a l M o t h ib a , G e n e r a l S i th o le .
d o c u m e n ts .

started

w i th

General Phahlane,

N o n e o f th e m d e c l a s s i fi e d t h e s e

W e fo ll o w e d u p w i th a f u r th e r r e q u e s t i n r e l a ti o n to o u r

in v e s t i g a t io n s o n I- Vi e w. W e c a ll t h e m I - Vi e w 1 , tw o , t h r e e .
S e v e r a l m il li o n s o f c o r r u p t io n s - t e n s o f m i lli o n s o f c o r r u p t io n
in v o lv e d . S o w e a l s o a s k e d d e c l a s s i fi c a t i o n i n th o s e m a tt e r s a n d th e r e
w a s n o p o s i t iv e r e s p o n s e .

I n f a c t a t s o m e p o in t w e w e r e c a ll e d t o

S C O PA i n P a r li a m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To S C O PA , y e s .
10

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O : S C O PA , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
p o li c e

are

r e f u s in g

to

A n d w e l a m e n t e d t h e s a m e t h in g t h a t t h e
d e c l a s s i fy

d o c u m e n ts

and

the

N a ti o n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r G e n e r a l S it h o l e m a d e a n u n d e r t a k i n g i n th a t m e e ti n g
t h a t w i t h i n 1 4 d a y s h e w ill d e c la s s if y th e d o c u m e n ts .

However that

never happened.
B e c a u s e o f t h e s e fr u s tr a ti o n s C h a i r w e t h e n r e s o r t e d t o
S e c t io n 2 0 5 in te r m s o f t h e C r i m in a l P r o c e d u r e A c t a n d w e s u b p o e n a e d
G e n e r a l S i t h o l e , G e n e r a l Vu m a , G e n e r a l Z u m a n i a n d t h e f o r m e r
20

M i n is t e r M b a lu l a ’s a d v is o r, M r B in d w a n e .

W h e n th e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o

h a n d o v e r d o c u m e n ts a n d c o m e fr o m i n te r v i e w s , b e c a u s e p a r t o f w h a t
w e w a n te d t o i n te r v i e w i n r e la t io n t o th e s e in v e s t i g a t io n s , t h e n t h e y
w e n t a n d c h a l l e n g e d o u r 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a , a n d t h a t is w h e n t h e n w e
o p p o s e d t h e ir c h a ll e n g e a n d d i d a c o u n t e r a p p l ic a t i o n to fo r c e t h e m t o
d e c l a s s i fy th e s e d o c u m e n ts a n d h a n d t h e m o v e r t o u s , a n d w e c u r r e n tl y

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 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
w a i ti n g f o r t h e J u d g e P r e s i d e n t to a ll o c a t e a d a t e f o r th e m a t t e r t o b e
heard.
N o w t h is is d e s p i te t h e f a c t th a t I P I D A c t S e c t io n 2 9 t h e r e o f ,
p r o v i d e s th a t t h e S A P S m u s t a s s i s t u s i n t e r m s o f h a n d i n g o v e r
d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e n e e d fo r th e p u r p o s e o f i n v e s ti g a ti o n o r g iv i n g u s
s t a te m e n ts a n d s o f o r th a n d t h e y r e f u s e t o d o s o .

S e c t i o n 4 2 o f th e

I P I D Ac t p r o v i d e s t h a t a n y S t a t e in s t i tu t io n m u s t c o o p e r a te w it h u s to
e n s u r e t h a t w e a r e a b l e t o a c h ie v e o u r m a n d a t e , d e s p i te t h o s e l e g a l
i m p e r a t iv e s th e y s ti ll r e fu s e .
10

I n fa c t w h e n w e r e c e iv e th e ir p a p e r s t h e y

a r e s a y i n g t o u s t h a t i t is o n ly t h e S t a n d i n g C o m m i t t e e o n I n te ll ig e n c e
t h a t c a n d e c l a s s if y d o c u m e n ts , w h ic h i s a b s u r d .

W e h a v e g o t a p o l ic y

d o c u m e n t w h i c h is m i n i m u m i n f o r m a ti o n s e c u r it y s t a n d a r d , w h ic h
p r o v i d e s h o w is s u e s o f c l a s s if ic a ti o n m u s t b e d e a l t w i th a n d w h o c a n
c la s s if y a n d w h o c a n d e c la s s i fy.

I t is v e r y c l e a r t h a t i t i s th e p e r s o n

w h o c la s s if i e s th e d o c u m e n t o r t h e H e a d o f t h e In s t i tu t io n w h ic h i n th is
in s t a n c e

may

be

the

N a ti o n a l

C o m m is s io n e r

or

the

D iv is i o n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e , n o t t h e S t a n d i n g C o m m i t t e e , b u t
that

is

what

they

are

saying

in

t h e ir

papers,

which

we

f in d

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : D o th e y r e fe r t o a n y l e g i s la t io n to s u p p o r t t h a t a s f a r
a s y o u r e c a ll ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

I th i n k t h e y d o , b u t i t is in o u r v ie w a

m is in t e r p r e ta t io n o f t h a t l e g is l a t i o n , b e c a u s e th e le g i s l a ti o n d o e s n o t
s a y th a t i n a n e v e n t t h e i s s u e o f d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n i t is c le a r o n th e
. . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] h o w i t m u s t b e h a n d le d a n d it w a s e v e n d e a l t w i t h i n t h e

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C o n s t i tu t io n a l ju d g m e n t o f M a s e tl a a n d f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t T h a b o M b e k i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , in t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

B u t i f t h e y h a d – i f t h e y a r e – if o n t h e ir k n o w l e d g e

o n ly th a t c o m m i t t e e c o u l d d e a l w i th i t w h y d i d n ’ t t h e y a l l t h e s e
s e v e n /e ig h t y e a r s t h a t Mr R o e l o fs e , C o lo n e l R o e l o fs e h a s b e e n a s k i n g
f o r t h e s e d o c u m e n ts w h y d id t h e y s a y y o u a r e c o m in g t o t h e w r o n g
p e o p l e , g o to P a r l ia m e n t ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
10

C h a i r t h a t is o b f u s c a t io n , th e r e i s n o t h i n g

lik e th a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Assuming that you are correct.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

In my humble opinion.

Ye s a n d y o u r i g h t ,

a s s u m i n g t h e y a r e c o r r e c t, t h a t i s w h a t t h e y s h o u l d h a v e d o n e a n d i f
t h e y w e r e c o m m i t t e d t o d o in g i t th e y s h o u l d h a v e w r i t te n t o th e
c o m m i t t e e a n d s a y I d i d r e q u e s t t h e s e m a t t e r s to b e d e c la s s if i e d t o
e n a b l e t h e m t o c o n d u c t in v e s t i g a t io n , c a n y o u p l e a s e d e c l a s s i fy t h e m ,
a n d th a t h a s n e v e r h a p p e n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th a t is d i ff ic u l t t o u n d e r s t a n d a ls o b e c a u s e

P a r li a m e n t is a d i ff e r e n t a r m o f t h e S ta t e , th e y a r e a d i ffe r e n t a r m o f
20

the State.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

E x a c t ly. A n d t h e y a r e n o t i n v o l v e d in t h e

o p e r a ti o n a l is s u e s o f t h e S A P S , s o y o u c a n n o t e x p e c t P a r li a m e n t t o b e
d e a li n g w i th c l a s s i fi c a t io n o r d e c l a s s i fi c a t i o n o f d o c u m e n t s o f t h e S A P.
T h i s is a ls o C h a ir d e s p i te t h e a d v ic e fr o m t h e In s p e c t o r G e n e r a l o f
I n t e lli g e n c e th a t t h e i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t I P I D is r e q u e s ti n g h a s n o t h i n g t o

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 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
d o w i t h th e s e c u r it y o f th e S t a t e , i t is a l l a b o u t p r o c u r e m e n t m a t te r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

The

Inspector

General

has

a c tu a l ly

a d v is e d

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

H a s w r i t t e n a n d a d v is e d .

CHAIRPERSON: And they know about that.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

They know about that.

A n d h o w l o n g a g o w a s th a t i f y o u a r e a b l e to

remember?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
10

I t h in k i t w a s – i t c o u ld b e e a r l y t h is y e a r

o r l a te la s t y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

W h e n w e r e c e i v e d th o s e a d v ic e fr o m th e

Inspector General.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e ir c h a l le n g e w h e n y o u s u b p o e n a e d t h e m a n d
y o u r c o u n t e r - a p p lic a ti o n w h e n d id t h e y – w h e n w e r e t h e y l a u n c h e d , h o w
far back?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

C h a ir I a m s p e a k i n g u n d e r c o r r e c ti o n , i t

c o u l d b e e a r ly t h is y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It c o u l d b e e a r l y t h i s y e a r ?
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Ye s , o r l a te la s t y e a r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, s o a t t h is s ta g e a s f a r a s y o u k n o w a ll p a p e r s
h a v e b e e n fi le d i n c o u r t a n d a ll th a t r e m a i n s is a d a t e f o r h e a r i n g to b e
a l lo c a t e d ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Ye s , y e s , y e s , a s fa r a s I k n o w.

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t y o u h a v e b e e n a s k i n g f o r, i n

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o th e r w o r d s w h i c h w il l b e a ff e c t e d b y t h e d e c is i o n o f t h e C o u r t i n t h a t
m a t t e r, w o u l d t h e y c o v e r a l m o s t a ll t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t C o l o n e l R o e l o f s e
was looking for?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Ye s i t a l s o i n c lu d e s th o s e d o c u m e n ts a n d

o th e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o th e r in v e s t i g a t io n s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

That we are busy with.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y s o i t m a y w e l l b e t h a t – i t m a y w e l l b e t h a t
r e l e v a n t p a r ti e s s h o u l d m a k e a n a p p r o a c h t o t h e J u d g e Pr e s id e n t t o a s k
10

t h a t th e d a t e b e g iv e n a s s o o n a s p o s s i b l e b e c a u s e t h i s is h o l d i n g u p
lo ts o f i n v e s ti g a ti o n s f o r y e a r s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, t h e a d v ic e I g o t fr o m

m y h e a d o f l e g a l is t h a t t h a t is t h e p o s i ti o n n o w, w e a r e w a i t in g f o r a
c o u r t d a t e t o b e a l lo c a t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h a t m a y b e i f a t a ll p o s s i b l e t h e d a te s h o u ld
n o t b e to o f a r a w a y, o f c o u r s e th e J u d g e P r e s i d e n t y o u k n o w l o o k s a t
e v e r y t h i n g i n h is o w n c o u r t a n d s o o n b u t h e p r o b a b ly i f h e – i f
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s a r e m a d e t o h i m a n d h e is m a d e to u n d e r s t a n d t h e
impact
20

of

the

delay

in

th is

i n v e s ti g a ti o n

because

of

the

non-

d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n h e w o u ld m a k e h i s d e c i s i o n f r o m a n i n f o r m e d p o s i t io n ,
b u t p a r t o f w h a t i s c o n c e r n i n g m e , d e s p i t e t h e fa c t t h a t y o u s a y y o u a r e
n o w w a i ti n g f o r a d a t e fo r a h e a r i n g is th a t th e d a t e fo r h e a r i n g a n d th e
h a n d i n g d o w n o f t h e j u d g m e n t m i g h t n o t m e a n th e e n d o f th e p r o b l e m
b e c a u s e i f f o r a r g u m e n t s a k e t h e N a t i o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r is s u c c e s s f u l
o r r a t h e r is u n s u c c e s s fu l a n d I P I D s u c c e e d s t h e y m ig h t s e e k to a p p e a r

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a n d t h e n w e c o u l d s e e a n o th e r th r e e y e a r s , i f n o t m o r e o f a d e l a y i n
r e g a r d t o fi n a l is i n g t h e s e m a t t e r s a n d b y t h a t ti m e t h e s e d o c u m e n ts
t h a t C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e s ta r t e d l o o k i n g f o r i n 2 0 1 2 o r 2 0 11 I m e a n t h o s e
c a s e s w o u ld h a v e b e e n m o r e th a n te n y e a r s o l d , a n d it is r e a ll y a n
u n t e n a b le s i tu a ti o n .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

C h a ir u n fo r t u n a te ly in o u r e n v ir o n m e n t

t h e s e a r e k in d o f p r o b l e m s w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h , u n f o r t u n a t e ly w e d o n o t
in v e s t i g a t e o r d i n a r y c i t iz e n s , w e in v e s t i g a te l a w e n f o r c e m e n t o ff ic e r s
w h o u n d e r s ta n d t h e c r i m i n a l ju s tic e s y s t e m a n d h o w it w o r k s a n d t h e y
10

c a n b e a b le t o m a n i p u l a t e i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

I m e a n t h i s P a h la n i i n v e s t ig a ti o n w e

conducted a search on one of the service providers, FDA and they
c h a l le n g e d o u r s e a r c h , w e o p p o s e d , w e w e n t t o c o u r t , t h e H ig h C o u r t
f o u n d i n o u r fa v o u r.
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h e y p e t i ti o n e d th e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f

A p p e a l , t h e y f a i le d t w ic e t h e r e a n d n o w t h e y ’ r e s a y i n g t h e y a r e ta k i n g i t
t o t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

A n d th e y a r e – th e i r a r g u m e n t s h a v e n ’ t

c h a n g e d , s o i t is c l e a r t o u s t h a t i t is t o d e l a y t h is a s fa r a s p o s s i b l e
b e c a u s e w h a t w e h a v e s e iz e d w e c a n n o t to u c h u n t il th e s e p r o c e s s e s
a r e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e li ti g a ti o n is fi n a l is e d .

Page 128 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

A r e f in a lis e d .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

A n d th a t p e r h a p s o n o u r a b ili t y t o c o n c l u d e

t h e s e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s , i t is a s i m il a r t h in g w i th th e c l a s s i f ic a t i o n , u n ti l
such

ti m e

that

we

get

the

documents

we

cannot

fi n a l is e

our

in v e s t i g a t io n i n th e s e m a t te r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I th i n k t h a t i f t h e e x e c u ti v e w a n ts t o b e s e e n t o
b e m e a n i n g b u s i n e s s a b o u t f i g h t in g c o r r u p ti o n th e n t h e y m u s t b e c le a r
t h e r e m u s t b e c l a r i ty o n w h e n w il l t h e y r e fu s e t o d e c l a s s i fy a n d w h y
10

w o u ld t h e y r e f u s e d e c l a s s i fy in g w h e n i t i s s a i d t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t s th a t
a r e b e i n g s o u g h t a r e b e i n g s o u g h t f o r p u r p o s e s o f i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n r e la t e s t o c o r r u p ti o n a m o n g o th e r t h i n g s a n d w i t h l o ts o f
m o n e y t h a t h a s b e e n l o s t t h r o u g h a l l o f t h a t, i t is r e a ll y a p it y t h a t th is
h a s b e e n a ll o w e d t o g o o n f o r s o l o n g .

T h e r e is a n e e d f o r d e c is iv e

a c ti o n , th e r e is a n e e d fo r d e c is iv e a c t io n o n t h e p a r t o f t h e e x e c u tiv e ,
b e c a u s e i n t h e e n d I m e a n c o u r t s g e t a s k e d to d e a l w i t h – s o m e o f t h e
m a t t e r s t h a t c o u r ts g e t a s k e d t o d e a l w it h a r e m a t t e r s th a t c a n b e
r e s o l v e d b y th e l e a d e r s h i p o f t h e E x e c u t iv e , to s a y t h i s is w r o n g , t h is is
what must happen and it must happen, and those who don’t want to
20

c o m p ly w i t h l a w f u l in s tr u c ti o n s m u s t b e d e a l t w i t h .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Yo u k n o w w h a t is f u n n y c h a ir i s t h a t o u r

A c t a s I h a v e in d ic a t e d S e c ti o n 2 9 s a y s i t g i v e s – i t p la c e s a n
o b li g a ti o n o n t h e p o lic e to c o o p e r a te w i t h u s i n t e r m s o f g iv in g u s
w h a t e v e r i n fo r m a ti o n w e n e e d , f o r i n v e s ti g a tiv e p u r p o s e s w h e t h e r i t b e
d o c u m e n ts w h e th e r i t b e s ta t e m e n ts , w h a t e v e r.

Page 129 of 182

It does not make

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
e x c e p ti o n t h a t o n l y i f i t i s n o t a c l a s s i fi e d d o c u m e n t.
s p e c i f ic a l ly p r o v id e s t h a t w e m u s t b e v e tt e d .

Our Act

I hold a top secret

c le a r a n c e , th e r e i s a r e a s o n fo r th a t , s o t h a t I c a n h a v e a c c e s s t o to p
s e c r e t i n f o r m a ti o n .
N o w e v e n i f t h e y h a v e c l a s s i f ie d i f w e a ll w o r k i n g in g o o d fa i th
t h e y s h o u l d m a k e t h e d o c u m e n ts a v a il a b l e t o m e b e c a u s e I h a v e t o p
s e c r e t c le a r a n c e , a n d t h e n b e a b l e t o r a is e w h a t e v e r c o n c e r n s t h e y
w a n t t o r a i s e w i t h m e i n r e l a ti o n t o th e i n f o r m a ti o n c o n ta in e d t h e r e , a s
t o w h i c h in f o r m a t io n c a n g o to c o u r t , w h ic h i n f o r m a t io n t h e y b e l i e v e
10

s h o u l d n o t g o to c o u r t b e c a u s e i t c a n a ff e c t S t a te s e c u r i ty a n d I a m
s u r e w e w i ll a m e n a b l e t o li s te n to t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s s o i n o t h e r w o r d s w h e n th e y k n o w t h a t I P I D

p e o p l e h a v e g o t , s u c h a s y o u , h a v e g o t t o p s e c r e t c l e a r a n c e , s e c u r i ty
c le a r a n c e , t h e r e is n o r e a s o n w h y t h e y c a n n o t s a y o k a y c o m e le t u s s it
h e r e , le t u s l o o k a t t h e s e d o c u m e n ts .

We are concerned that these

m i g h t b e a p r o b le m i f th e y g e t t o b e k n o w n p u b l ic ly.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

E x a c tly.

A n d t h e n y o u c a n d i s c u s s a n d th e n y o u c a n l o o k a t

t h o s e t h a t m i g h t b e n o p r o b l e m , y o u m i g h t b e a b l e t o a g r e e th a t th e s e I
20

a g r e e , th e s e I d o n o t a g r e e .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

E x a c tly, e x a c t ly.

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t e v e n th a t d o e s n o t ta k e p l a c e ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h a t d o e s n o t ta k e p l a c e .

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

W e h a d a n o p p o r t u n i ty C h a ir t o g o t o t h e

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U K t o a s i m i la r i n s ti t u ti o n l ik e o u r s , I P C C , a n d t o u n d e r s t a n d h o w t h e y
d o t h e ir w o r k a n d t h i s is s u e a ls o c a m e u p t o s a y h o w d o t h e y d e a l w i t h
these issues.

T h e y s a i d n o th e y g e t a c c e s s t o a n y d o c u m e n t i n

p o s s e s s i o n o f t h e i r P o lic e S e r v ic e , i t d o e s n o t m a t t e r w h e t h e r i t is
c la s s if i e d o r n o t c l a s s i fi e d , a n d th e y w il l m a k e a d e t e r m in a ti o n w h ic h
in f o r m a ti o n c a n b e e x p o s e d o r n o t e x p o s e d b a s e d o n th o s e s e c u r i ty
c o n s i d e r a ti o n s
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm, mmm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
10

So I am sure this is something that we

c o u l d h a v e d o n e o u r s e l v e s w i t h th e S A P S , a n d t h is d o c u m e n t is v e r y
c le a r t h a t t h e y c a n n o t u s e c la s s i f ic a ti o n t o h i d e c r i m i n a l it y i n t h e S A P S .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l th a t is w h a t C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e a ls o e m p h a s i s e d

la s t w e e k .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Yo u k n o w a n d w e h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t o u r

w o r k is tr y i n g t o a s s is t th e m t o d e a l w i t h is s u e s o f c o r r u p ti o n i n t h e ir
e n v ir o n m e n t .

N o w d e n y i n g u s a c c e s s to t h is a n d a b i li t y t o b e a b l e t o

d e a l w it h t h is c o r r u p ti o n i t d o e s n o t a s s is t t h e m e i th e r.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Mmm, mmm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

S o t h e n y o u h a v e t o a s k y o u r s e l f w h y th e y

a r e r e fu s i n g t o g i v e u s t h is d o c u m e n t .

Is it because senior members

a r e s u s p e c t s i n t h e s e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M s W e n tz e l ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

O n t h a t t o p ic f u r t h e r c o u l d y o u

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t e ll t h e C h a i r w h a t h a p p e n e d p u r s u a n t t o y o u r C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e
I n v e s ti g a t i o n s w h e n y o u r a id e d t h e o ff ic e s o f a s e r v i c e p r o v id e r a n d
s e i z e d c o m p u te r s a n d d o c u m e n ts ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

W e – o n e o f o u r in v e s t i g a t io n s w e w e n t t o

a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r ’s p r e m i s e s a n d w e s e i z e d d o c u m e n ts a n d f r o m a f t e r
w e s e iz e d t h e d o c u m e n t s w e a n a ly s e d th e i n f o r m a t i o n c o n t a in e d t h e r e
a n d i t w a s c l e a r t h a t th e r e w e r e m e e t in g s t h a t w e r e h e ld b e t w e e n t h e
s e r v ic e p r o v id e r a n d s e n i o r o ff ic e r s i n t h e S A P S .

In fact part of our

S e c t io n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a s w a s t o t r y a n d g e t th e s e n i o r p o l ic e o ff ic e r s to
10

b e i n te r v i e w e d s o t h a t w e c a n u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h e ir in v o lv e m e n t w a s i n
r e l a ti o n to t h e p r o c u r e m e n t th a t t h e y w a n t e d t o d o , a n d w h e t h e r it w a s
le g i t i m a te o r n o t. N o w b e c a u s e o f t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y c h a ll e n g e d t h a t w e
c o u l d n o t t a k e th e s e m a t t e r s a n y f u r th e r, s o i t i s v e r y c o n c e r n in g to u s
t h a t t h e r e is t h is r e f u s a l t o e n g a g e w i th u s o n t h e s e m a t t e r s , a n d I a m
n o t i n a n y w a y s u g g e s t in g t h a t t h e y a r e g u il ty o f a n y t h i n g , b u t fo r u s t o
b e a b l e to c o m e t o a c o n c lu s i o n o n i n v e s t i g a t io n w e n e e d t o g e t a ll t h e
f a c ts , a n d m y e x p e c t a ti o n is t h a t a n y s e n i o r o ff ic e r w h o k n o w s th a t h e
h a s d o n e n o th i n g w r o n g h e s h o u l d n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m e n g a g i n g w i t h u s
a n d t e l li n g u s w h a t w e r e t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s s u r r o u n d i n g t h e a c ti o n s t h a t

20

h e h a v e t a k e n a t th a t p o in t in ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l th o s e w h o r e fu s e t o d e c la s s if y y o u m i g h t n o t b e
a c c u s i n g th e m o f b e in g g u il ty o f a n y th i n g b u t i f th e y o r s o m e o f th e m
h a v e b e e n r e f u s i n g t o h a v e – to d e c l a s s i f y d o c u m e n ts t h a t a r e s a i d to
h a v e n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h t h e s e c u r i ty o f th e S t a t e , t h a t r e a l ly r e l a te to
a l le g a ti o n s o f c o r r u p t i o n a n d th e y h a v e n o t b e e n p u t t in g u p a n y r e a s o n

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a s to w h y t h e s e d o c u m e n t s c a n n o t b e s a i d t o h a v e b e e n in v o lv e d in
a l le g a ti o n s o f c o r r u p t i o n , i t r a is e s s e r i o u s q u e s t io n s a s to t h e i r m o ti v e s
f o r n o t d e c l a s s i fy i n g a n d th e r e m a y w e l l h a v e t o b e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a s t o
w h e t h e r s u c h m o t iv e s a s th e y m a y h a v e a r e n o t o f a c r i m i n a l n a t u r e .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r S e s o k o y o u s a i d t h a t

y o u h a d to g e t a n in t e r d i c t t o s t o p th e M b u l a te a m i n te r f e r in g w i t h o u r
in v e s t i g a t io n s , a n d if y o u ju s t h a v e r e g a r d t o p a r a g r a p h 6 5 I w o u ld j u s t
10

lik e y o u to t e ll t h e C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d n o t w i t h s t a n d in g t h e f a c t t h a t
y o u h a d a n i n te r d ic t a g a i n s t t h e M b u l a t e a m a f te r t h a t.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

C h a ir a f t e r w e g o t o t h e i n te r d ic t a n d t h e

J u d g e w a s v e r y c l e a r a l s o th a t t h e S A P S m a n a g e m e n t m u s t m a k e a n
u n d e r t a k i n g t h a t t h e y w i ll r e m o v e th is t e a m f r o m t h e i n v e s t ig a ti n g
h o u s e w h ic h u n d e r t a k in g t h e y m a d e , b u t s u b s e q u e n t t o th a t i t m u s t
h a v e b e e n a m o n t h o r s o l a t e r, i f n o t t w o m o n t h s la t e r I w a s a p p r o a c h e d
b y o n e o f m y i n v e s ti g a to r s , Mr M h l a n g o , a n d h e c a m e to m e w i th a
r e c o r d i n g o n h i s c e l l p h o n e f r o m t h e v e r y s a m e B r ig a d i e r G o m o , w h o
w a s i n t h e I P I D a n d B r ig a d i e r G o m o w a s e s s e n ti a lly t e l li n g Mr M h l a n g o
20

t h a t h e m u s t i m p l ic a te u s , t h e m a n a g e m e n t a n d t h e N C i t y t e a m in
w r o n g d o i n g i n e x c h a n g e fo r th a t t h e n h e w i ll g e t a b r i g a d ie r p o s i ti o n i n
the SAPS.
N o w i f t h a t is n o t g r a ti f ic a ti o n I d o n o t k n o w w h a t g r a ti f ic a t i o n
is .
N o w a f t e r I g o t t h is i n fo r m a t i o n M r M h la n g o a ls o s a i d t h a t i n

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f a c t B r i g a d ie r G o m o h a d s a i d to h i m t h e y m u s t m e e t w i t h G e n e r a l
M b u l a , w h ic h th e y d id in P o t c h e fs tr o o m a n d M r M h la n g o a ls o r e c o r d e d
t h a t m e e t i n g w h e r e t h e d is c u s s i o n w a s e x a c tl y a r o u n d t h is is s u e , t h a t
t h e y m u s t i m p lic a t e u s .

I n fa c t t h e y a ls o d is c u s s e d a b o u t a p r o s e c u to r

w h o w il l th e n p r e p a r e a s t a t e m e n t f o r M r M h l a n g o w h ic h c a n b e u s e d
a g a in s t u s .
N o w t h is is d e s p i t e t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e is a n o r d e r th a t s a y s
t h e y m u s t n o t g e t in v o lv e d , t h e y m u s t n o t in t e r fe r e , t h a t is h o w b r a z e n
t h e s e o ffi c e r s w e r e .
N o w s u b s e q u e n t t o u s l e a r n i n g a b o u t t h is w e c a ll e d a m e e t in g

10

w i t h t h e e n tir e t e a m , b e c a u s e n o w w e a r e a w a r e t h a t t h e r e a r e th e s e
a p p r o a c h e s a n d i n t h a t m e e t in g . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e e n t ir e t e a m b e i n g y o u r te a m ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

T h e .. . [ in d i s ti n c t ] te a m , m y te a m y e s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

In that team we then asked them to

d is c l o s e i f t h e y h a v e b e e n a p p r o a c h e d i n t h e s i m il a r w a y a s w e h a v e
le a r n t a b o u t M r M h l a n g o a n d o n ly Mr M h l a n g o i n d ic a te d t h a t h e h a s
been
20

approached,

approached.

the

rest

of

th e

team

s a id

they

were

never

H o w e v e r in th e r e c o r d in g M r G o m o is h e a r d s a y i n g t h a t

o n e o f o u r i n v e s ti g a t o r s , Mr N g a b i n d e h a s a lr e a d y a g r e e d t o w o r k w i t h
t h e m a g a i n s t u s , a n d i n t h e m e e t in g M r N g a b i n d e d o e s n o t s a y
a n y th in g .

A f te r w e a d j o u r n e d t h e m e e ti n g , i t c o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e

f o ll o w i n g d a y I w r o te t o M r N g a b in d e a n d i n fo r m e d h i m t h a t I a m
r e m o v i n g h i m fr o m th e t e a m b e c a u s e w e c a n n o t tr u s t h i m a n y m o r e . H e

Page 134 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
is o r i g i n a l ly fr o m t h e K w a Z u l u N a t a l o ff ic e a n d I s a i d h e m u s t g o b a c k
t o t h e o ff ic e o f K w a Zu l u N a ta l .
H e w r o te t o t h e E x e c u tiv e D ir e c t o r a n d s a i d t h a t h e s h o u l d n o t
a p p o i n t e i th e r m y s e lf o r M r K h u b a t o i n v e s ti g a te t h e s e a ll e g a t io n s o f
a p p r o a c h e d a ll e g i n g i m p r o p r ie ty o n o u r p a r t .

M r M c B r i d e w r o te b a c k

to him and said if you have evidence that Sesoko and Khuba have
c o n d u c t e d th e m s e lv e s i n a n u n l a w fu l m a n n e r p r o v id e m e w it h t h a t
e v i d e n c e t h e n I w i ll d e a l w it h i t . N o n e o f t h a t c a m e f o r th .
W e r e g is t e r e d a c r i m in a l i n v e s t ig a ti o n o f c o r r u p t io n a g a i n s t t h e
10

M b u l a t e a m i n c l u d i n g o u r o w n M r N g a b i n d e fo r i n v e s ti g a ti o n . W e a ls o
s t a r t e d w i t h d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s e s a g a in s t h i m , i n fa c t w e s u s p e n d e d
h i m a n d t h e n s u b s e q u e n tl y w e h e ld a d is c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g , o r w e w e r e
s u p p o s e d t o h o l d a d i s c i p li n a r y h e a r i n g , i t n e v e r m a te r i a l is e d b e c a u s e
h e o ff e r e d t h r o u g h h is a t t o r n e y s t h a t h e w ill r e s i g n a n d o ff e r e d th a t w e
m a k e a s e t t le m e n t w i t h h i m , w h ic h w e d i d .
H e a l s o m a d e c o m p l a in ts a g a i n s t u s w it h t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h th e ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Al l e g in g w r o n g d o i n g a g a i n s t u s i n r e l a t i o n

t o a p p o in t m e n ts a n d p r o c u r e m e n t i s s u e s .

N o w t h e s e a ll e g a t io n s w e r e

n o g c o m in g fo r t h e fi r s t t i m e , b e c a u s e t h e s e a l le g a ti o n s b e fo r e t h e n
w e r e s e n t t o t h e P u b li c S e r v i c e C o m m is s io n , a n d t h e P u b li c S e r v i c e
C o m m i s s i o n i n v e s ti g a te d t h o s e a l l e g a ti o n s a n d f o u n d t h e m t o b e
u n s u b s t a n ti a te d , b u t t h e y w e r e n o w r e h a s h e d w i th t h e o ffic e o f th e

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P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r.
I n m y v i e w t h e P u b li c Pr o te c to r ’s o ffi c e w a s n o w b e in g
w e a p o n is e d a g a i n s t u s .

N o w t h is is w h a t w e h a v e b e e n e x p e r ie n c i n g

a l l a l o n g , th a t t h e r e i s t h i s fi g h t b a c k c a m p a i g n a g a i n s t u s s o t h a t i t
d e r a il s a ll th e s e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s t h a t w e w e r e c o n d u c ti n g .
N o w r e c e n t ly t h e r e i s a r e p o r t th a t w a s i s s u e d b y t h e P u b l ic
P r o t e c t o r w h ic h m a k e s f i n d i n g s a g a i n s t u s , my s e l f , M r M c Br id e , Mr
K h u b a , M r N o m k o n s i , S i y a n d a , h e a d o f o u r c o r p o r a t e s e r v ic e s , M s
M o t la le a n d M s M o r o a s u i , h e a d o f l e g a l , it is a l m o s t t h e e n ti r e
10

management if IPID.
N o w i t is a s e p a r a te m a t te r, w e a r e g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h i t, w e
a r e c l e a r t h a t w e d o n o t a g r e e w i t h t h o s e f in d i n g s , w e a r e g o i n g to t a k e
o n r e v i e w a n d i n t e r d i c t th e m , b u t t h a t is t h e k i n d o f s i t u a ti o n t h a t w e
fi n d o u r s e lv e s i n , t h e r e m u s t a l w a y s b e s o m e t h i n g .
I h a v e b e e n s u b je c te d t o i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d I m e a n p e o p le i n
t h e p o l ic e t e ll m e t h a t y o u k n o w th e y w a n t t o g e t s o m e t h i n g o n y o u , y o u
k n o w I t a l k e d t o m y b a n k e r th a t t i m e , m y b a n k e r s a y s w h a t h a v e y o u
d o n e , t h e p o li c e a r e l o o k i n g fo r y o u r f in a n c i a l i n fo r m a ti o n , w h a t h a v e
y o u d o n e . S o t h a t i s th e k i n d o f s i t u a t i o n w e fi n d o u r s e lv e s i n . I n m y

20

v ie w i t is a p u s h - b a c k b e c a u s e w e d a r e d t o i n v e s ti g a te t h o s e t h a t a r e
s u p p o s e d to b e in v e s ti g a t e d .
S o th a t i s t h e s i t u a t i o n w e f in d o u r s e lv e s i n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It m u s t b e a v e r y d i ffic u lt e n v ir o n m e n t t o w o r k i n .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

I t c e r t a i n ly is , i t c e r t a i n l y i s , i t is

c o n ti n u o u s p u s h - b a c k .

Page 136 of 182

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C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m , a n d th is i s h a p p e n in g e v e n i n 2 0 1 9 ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Even now as I have indicated in my view I

b e li e v e t h a t t h e O ffi c e o f th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r h a s w e a p o n i s e d a g a i n s t
us.
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm, mmm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u .

C o u l d y o u ju s t g i v e t h e C h a ir a n i d e a w h e n

t h a t P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r ’s r e p o r t c a m e o u t?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
le a k e d .
10

T h e P u b li c P r o te c to r ’s r e p o r t w a s a c t u a l ly

I fi r s t b e c a m e a w a r e o f i t fr o m o u r in v e s ti g a t o r s , b e c a u s e i t

w a s d o in g th e r o u n d s o n W h a ts a p p , i t w a s le a k e d a ls o t o th e m e d i a , b u t
u s a s p e o p l e w h o w a s . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is b e f o r e i t w a s o ffi c ia ll y r e l e a s e d ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Ye s , p e o p l e w h o a r e i m p l ic a te d w e h a v e

n o t r e c e i v e d i t o ffi c i a l ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

A c tu a lly i t w a s o n l y r e c e i v e d b y o u r

la w y e r s o n t h e 1 9 t h I t h i n k .
CHAIRPERSON: Last week?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :
20

J a , n o , n o , n o , to d a y i s – o n M o n d a y.

CHAIRPERSON: On Monday?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

O n M o n d a y, a n d i t w a s a lr e a d y m a k i n g

r o u n d s fr o m t h e 1 8 t h , a n d . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s n o w i n th e s o c ia l m e d i a ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

W e u n d e r s t a n d fr o m o u r l a w y e r s th a t t h e y

h a v e a l r e a d y b e e n r e c e iv in g m e d i a e n q u ir i e s a b o u t i t.

Page 137 of 182

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d M r S e s o k o d i d t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r

in t e r v ie w y o u ?
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Ye s I w a s i n t e r v i e w e d b y t h e P u b l ic

P r o t e c t o r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir I h a v e n o fu r t h e r q u e s t io n s , t h a t

c o n c l u d e s t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r S e s o k o , u n l e s s y o u h a v e f u r th e r
q u e s t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I th i n k I d o n o t h a v e a n y fu r t h e r q u e s ti o n s a ls o b u t

y o u w i ll r e m e m b e r s o m e o f t h e th i n g s th a t I h a v e a s k e d y o u t o – s o m e
h o m e w o r k , a n d a s s is t a n c e th a t I h a v e a s k e d y o u t o g iv e to th e
in v e s t i g a t o r s a n d th e L e g a l Te a m , th a t i s y o u r s e l f , Mr M c B r i d e a n d M r
K h u b a . P l e a s e d o t h a t b u t o t h e r th a n t h a t I m u s t th a n k y o u f o r c o m i n g
f o r w a r d t o g iv e e v i d e n c e .

I w ill c o n ti n u e t o h e a r e v i d e n c e a n d I w il l

h e a r e v i d e n c e fr o m a l s o t h o s e a g a in s t w h o m e v i d e n c e h a s b e e n g i v e n
r e l a ti n g t o u n la w f u l c o n d u c t o r i n a p p r o p r i a t e c o n d u c t o r m is c o n d u c t b u t
if i n d e e d i n t h e e n d w h a t y o u h a v e t o l d m e a b o u t th e s tr u g g l e s th a t y o u
h a v e s a id y o u h a v e h a d f o r s t a n d i n g f o r t h e r ig h t th in g s , t o m a k e s u r e
t h e r ig h t t h in g s a r e d o n e , w h ic h r e a lly w o u l d b e v e r y u n f o r t u n a t e ly b u t
20

w e h a v e t o e s t a b lis h w h a t th e tr u e p o s i t i o n is s o th a t th e C o m m i s s io n
a t th e e n d c a n s a y t h is i s w h a t h a p p e n s , c a n m a k e f in d i n g s a n d t h e n
s a y, m a k e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s a s to w h a t m e a s u r e s s h o u l d b e p u t i n
p l a c e to m a k e s u r e th a t th e s e t h i n g s d o n o t h a p p e n a g a in , t o m a k e s u r e
t h a t w i t h r e g a r d t o I P I D w h e r e I P I D p e r s o n n e l a r e i n v e s ti g a ti n g , m a k i n g
in v e s t i g a t io n s , th e y a r e n o t h i n d e r e d i n s t e a d th e y a r e a s s is t e d t o d o

Page 138 of 182

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t h e ir j o b i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts o f t h e la w a n d w h e r e a n y
o th e r o ffi c i a l s w i th in t h e l a w e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n c i e s b e l ie v e t h a t t h e y
s h o u l d n o t g iv e a s s i s ta n c e t h e y s ta t e t h a t u p fr o n t a n d g iv e r e a s o n s s o
t h a t th o s e c a n e v a l u a t e d a n d i f n e e d b e e v e n m o r e s e n i o r p e o p le w i t h i n
t h e E x e c u ti v e m u s t b e a p p r o a c h e d t o tr y a n d r e s o lv e i t a n d th e c o u r ts
a r e r e a l ly a p p r o a c h e d w h e n th e r e is n o o t h e r w a y.
B u t s o m e ti m e s y o u ju s t n e e d p r o p e r l e a d e r s h ip t h a t w i ll s t a n d
fir m o n w h a t i s r i g h t a n d w h a t is w r o n g a n d g e t th i n g s s o r t e d o u t a n d
t h i n g s c a n b e s o r te d o u t w i t h o u t g o i n g t o c o u r t, i t is ju s t a n
10

u n a c c e p t a b l e s i t u a ti o n w h e r e w i t h i n e ffe c ti v e ly t h e s a m e o r g a n is a t i o n
t h i n g s c a n n o t b e s o r t e d o u t , b u t o f c o u r s e t h o s e s i t u a t io n s c a n a r is e
a n d w h e n th e y a r i s e y o u m i g h t h a v e n o o p t io n b u t to g o t o C o u r t a n d tr y
a n d g e t a s s is ta n c e b e c a u s e s o m e ti m e s t h e C o u r ts a r e th e o n ly p l a c e s
o f r e fu g e a n d p l a c e s w h e r e t h e r i g h t d e c is i o n s w il l b e m a d e to m a k e
s u r e th a t t h in g s a r e d o n e in a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e l a w.
B u t th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r h a v i n g c o m e t o g i v e e v id e n c e ,
a n d p r o b a b ly y o u m a y b e a s k e d to c o m e b a c k o n o t h e r m a t t e r s t h a t y o u
h a v e t o u c h e d o n b u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m in g .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

20

Th a n k y o u C h a ir, a n d I p le d g e th a t w e w il l

a s s is t th e C o m m i s s i o n in a n y w a y w e c a n t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i t d is c h a r g e
it s m a n d a te .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

B u t a ls o w e h o p e th a t th e w o r k o f t h e

C o m m i s s i o n w il l a s s is t u s a s p u b lic s e r v a n ts s o t h a t w h e n y o u d o y o u r
w o r k w i t h i n t e g r i t y a n d s ta n d f ir m f o r th e tr u th it is n o t . .. [ in d is ti n c t ] .

Page 139 of 182

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CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , y e s , n o t h a n k y o u w e c e r t a i n l y, I c e r ta i n ly

h o p e t h a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t w e w il l m a k e i n t h e e n d m u s t b e a b le
t o s h o w th a t a s a c o u n tr y w e a p p r e c i a t e t h e w o r k o f t h o s e w h o s t a n d
f o r w h a t is r ig h t a n d w h o w a n ts t o d o t h e ir jo b in t h e r ig h t w a y a n d w h o
d o n o t w a n t to d o w r o n g th i n g s , s o w e h o p e t h a t th e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s
w e w i ll m a k e w i ll f a c ili t a t e t h a t , b u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , y o u a r e
excused.
M R M AT T H E W S S E S O K O :

Thank you.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s W e n tz e l , a r e y o u r e a d y w it h M r K h u b a ?
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I a m r e a d y, i f I c o u l d j u s t h a v e a f i f te e n

m i n u t e o r f iv e m in u t e b r e a k j u s t to r e g r o u p a n d g e t m y f il e s t o g e t h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is fi n e , w e m i g h t n o t h a v e a lo t o f ti m e b u t I
think we must use whatever time we have.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o s h a ll I g iv e y o u w h a t , te n m i n u t e s , fiv e m i n u t e s ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s it is fi n e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Te n o r f iv e ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Te n p le a s e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Te n , o k a y, w e w il l a d jo u r n a n d w e w il l r e s u m e a t t e n
20

t o f o u r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th a n k y o u .

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES

Page 140 of 182

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th e n e x t w it n e s s i s a w i t n e s s …

C H A I R P E R S O N : S w i tc h o n y o u r m ic r o p h o n e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r n e x t w it n e s s is M r I n n o c e n t K h u b a .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s t h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. P le a s e a d m i n i s t e r th e o a t h o r a ff ir m a ti o n ?
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : M y n a m e i s H u m b u la n i In n o c e n t
10

Khuba.
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : N o .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th ; t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e tr u t h if s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d .
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : S o h e l p m e G o d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . B e f o r e y o u s t a r t M s W e n tz e l .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e t o o k l o n g e r t h a n w e h o p e d w e w o u l d w i th M r

S e s o k o a n d t o m o r r o w w e w i ll n o t b e a b le t o s t a r t a t h a l f p a s t n i n e w i t h
r e g a r d t o th e – w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e a p p li c a t io n f o r a n o r d e r th a t C o l o n e l
N a i d o o ’s e v i d e n c e b e h e a r d i n c a m e r a .

Page 141 of 182

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A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e a n o th e r u r g e n t m e e ti n g h a s a r i s e n t h a t I

m u s t a t te n d t o r e l a ti n g t o c o m m i s s i o n w o r k .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e m o r n in g a n d th a t w o u ld m e a n w e a r e n o t a b l e –
a ls o a b l e t o s t a r t a t t e n t o c o n t i n u e w i t h M r K h u b a ’s e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e
w e w i ll n o t fi n is h t o d a y. S o I t h i n k t h a t i f i t is fi n e w i th y o u a n d w it h Mr
K h u b a w e s h o u l d c o n t i n u e b e y o n d f o u r o ’c l o c k u p t o fi v e t o tr y a n d
m a k e s u r e t h a t w h a t e v e r is le f t f o r to m o r r o w a t le a s t w e h a v e c o v e r e d
10

s o m e – s o m e g r o u n d . Is th a t fi n e w it h y o u ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s – Ye s C h a ir t h a t is p e r f e c tl y s u i t a b le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M r K h u b a w o u l d th a t b e f i n e w i t h y o u ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : It i s fi n e w i th m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

It i s fi n e w i t h y o u .

O k a y.

Thank you.

Let us

c o n ti n u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

M r K h u b a y o u h a v e p r o v i d e d a n a ffi d a v i t t o

t h e c o m m i s s io n , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f y o u h a v e a l o o k a t t h e b u n d le i n fr o n t y o u i s
20

t h a t y o u r a ffi d a v i t m a r k e d p a g e s 2 to 3 6 ? C a n y o u s e e i t a c t u a l ly s a y s
HIK2 – 002.
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is m y a ff id a v i t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir i f I m i g h t s u b m i t t h a t i n t o e v i d e n c e

marked Y4.1?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll t h e a ffi d a v it I h a v e y o u s a id h is a ff i d a v i t g o e s u p

Page 142 of 182

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to page 35 but …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Page 36.
CHAIRPERSON: But it goes up – the one I have goes up to 27.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : To 2 7 ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 7 o f h i s a ff id a v i t a n d 2 8 o f t h e p a g i n a t e d p a p e r s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir m in e g o e s u p t o 3 6 .

Perhaps if we

c o u l d j u s t s t a n d d o w n f o r t w o m in u t e s s o I c a n s e e w h a t is – w h a t h a s
gone wrong here?
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u n o t h a v e s o m e b o d y w h o m ig h t h a v e t h e e x tr a
10

p a g e s t h e n w e d o n o t h a v e t o s t a n d d o w n y o u c a n j u s t g iv e m e t h e
e x tr a p a g e s ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

So the pages that I do not have start at page 29 if

y o u l o o k a t t h e p a g i n a te d p a g e s o t h e r w i s e p a g e 2 8 o f t h e a ff id a v i t
it s e l f.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I a p o lo g i s e C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e h o w th a t

happened.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b e fo r e w e d o t h a t le t u s c o m p le t e t h a t . M r K h u b a
p a g e s 2 o f t h e b u n d l e t h a t is n o w i f y o u l o o k a t t h e r e d n u m b e r s o n t h e
20

t o p r i g h t h a n d i t is p a g e 2 w h i c h is p a g e 1 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t. M o s t o f t h e
ti m e w h e n s h e r e fe r s t o p a g e n u m b e r s s h e w il l b e r e f e r r i n g t o th e r e d
n u m b e r s a n d s h e w il l n o t m e n t i o n t h e le t t e r s a n d 0 0 s h e w i ll ju s t s a y
p a g e 1 , p a g e 2 , p a g e 3 a n d s o o n . O k a y. N o w f r o m p a g e 2 u p to p a g e
3 5 o f t h e r e d n u m b e r s , t h e p a g in a te d p a g e s o r r a t h e r 3 6 t h a t is w h e r e
t h e c o m m i s s io n e r ’s s i g n a t u r e is . Is th a t y o u r a ff id a v i t?

Page 143 of 182

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M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s it is m y a ff id a v i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d a r e t h e c o n te n ts o f t h a t a ff i d a v i t tr u e a n d

c o r r e c t t o t h e b e s t y o u r k n o w le d g e a n d b e l ie f ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y t h a n k y o u . T h e l e v e r a r c h f il e c o n ta i n i n g M r

K h u b a ’s a ff i d a v i t a n d a n n e x u r e s w il l b e m a r k e d Ex h ib i t Y 4 .

Ye s y o u

c a n s ta r t t h e n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir i f i t c o u ld b e m a r k e d Y 4 . 1 b e c a u s e

t h e r e w a s a n a n n e x u r e t h a t w a s o m i t t e d a n d a s u p p le m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t
10

is b e i n g p r e p a r e d a n d I w o u l d l ik e t o p u t t h a t d o c u m e n t i n a s Ex h ib i t
m a r k e d Y 4 . 2 . S o t h e m a i n a ff id a v i t w i ll b e Y 4 . 1 a n d t h e s u p p le m e n t a r y
w i ll b e Y 4 . 2 i f t h a t is c o n v e n ie n t to y o u C h a ir /
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll l e t u s d o t h a t n o w.

S o t h is le v e r a r c h f il e

c o n ta in i n g M r K h u b a ’s a ff id a v i t w il l b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t Y 4 . 1 .

Just

a r r a n g e fo r a m a r k e t to b e u s e d l a te r o n to …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s I w i ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a r k it . O k a y t h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

M r K h u b a i f y o u h a v e a l o o k r ig h t a t e n d o f

t h e b u n d le a t p a g e 3 7 6 u p u n ti l 3 7 9 i s th a t th e s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff i d a v i t
20

t h a t y o u d e p o s e d to ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is a f t e r th e d iv i d e r m a r k e d B .
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : O k a y. T h a t i s c o r r e c t i t i s m i n e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u a n d y o u c o n f ir m t h a t is tr u e a n d

correct?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .

Page 144 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. Mr Khuba …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s – M s W e n t z e l y o u k n o w M r S e s o k o r e fe r r e d t o in
h is e v id e n c e t o M r M h l o n g o I t h i n k h e s a i d M h l o n g o w h o h e s a id h a d a
r e c o r d i n g o f B r i g a d i e r G o m o a s k in g h i m o r t h e m t o i m p l ic a te M r S e s o k o
I t h i n k a n d Mr M c Br id e i n s o m e w r o n g d o i n g . I t h in k w h e n Mr M c Br id e
g a v e h is e v id e n c e e a r l ie r t h i s y e a r h e d i d m e n ti o n t h a t . W h a t I c a n n o t
r e m e m b e r is w h e t h e r th a t r e c o r d in g w a s m a d e a v a il a b l e t o t h e
c o m m i s s io n a n d w h e t h e r I h a v e li s t e n e d to i t o r n o t. J u s t c h e c k t h a t s o
t h a t i f it h a s n o t b e e n m a d e a v a i la b l e o r i t h a s b e e n m a d e a v a il a b l e b u t
10

it h a s n o t b e e n p l a y e d i n t h e o p e n h e a r i n g t h e n t h a t s h o u l d – s o th a t
t h a t c a n b e d o n e in d u e c o u r s e . B u t a l s o I w a n t e d t o fi n d o u t w h e t h e r
t h e r e w e r e p la n s i n p l a c e t o c a ll M r M h lo n g o w h o h a d h a d t h a t
d is c u s s io n w i t h B r i g a d i e r G o m o ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o n o t a s y e t . B u t I w il l m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts
t o c o n s u lt .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t h o s e p l a n s s h o u l d h a v e b e e n m a d e – t h a t

s h o u l d h a v e b e e n p a r t o f th e p l a n e v e n b e f o r e y o u c a m e o n b o a r d .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

B e c a u s e t h a t e v i d e n c e w a s g iv e n i n I th in k it w a s

A p r il o r M a r c h a n d th e r e s h o u l d b y n o w h a v e b e e n a s t a t e m e n t fr o m Mr
M h lo n g o .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t a l s o t h e r e m u s t b e a n i d e n ti f ic a ti o n o f c e r t a in

p e o p l e in t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r M c Br id e , M r S e s o k o , M r K h u b a in r e la t io n
t o v a r io u s e v e n t s a n d i n c id e n ts .

T h e r e m u s t b e a n i d e n t i fic a ti o n o f

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c e r t a i n p e o p l e w h o m u s t b e is s u e d w i t h a R e g u l a ti o n 1 0 – R e g u l a ti o n
1 0 . 6 D ir e c t iv e s c a l li n g u p o n t h e m t o fi le a ffi d a v i ts d e a l in g w i t h
a l le g a ti o n s t h a t h a v e b e e n m a d e a g a in s t t h e m .

B u t a ls o th e r e s h o u l d

b e a p l a n t o m a k e s u r e t h o s e p e o p le c a n b e c a ll e d t o g iv e e v i d e n c e
t h a t in c l u d e s M r K g a m a n y a n e w h o w a s a c ti n g E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r w h e n
Mr…
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

M r M c B r i d e w a s o n s u s p e n s i o n b u t a ls o t h is – t h is

t e a m f r o m N o r t h W e s t th a t Mr S e s o k o t a l k e d a b o u t t h a t …
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e M a b u l a te a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e a ll e g e d w a s i n f e r r i n g w i th t h e ir i n v e s ti g a ti o n s y o u
k n o w t h o s e p e o p le m u s t b e g iv e n a c h a n c e t o r e s p o n d to t h e
a l le g a ti o n s a n d m u s t b e a b l e to b e c a ll e d t o g i v e e v i d e n c e . A n d a ls o
t h e v a r io u s N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r s o f P o lic e w h o h a v e r e f u s e d t o
d e c l a s s i fy d o c u m e n ts , A c ti n g C o m m i s s i o n e r s a n d w h o e v e r R e g u la t io n
1 0 . 6 D i r e c t iv e s h a v e t o b e is s u e d fo r th e m t o r e s p o n d t o t h e a ll e g a t io n s
a n d u l ti m a t e l y t o c o m e a n d g iv e e v id e n c e . S o s h a r e th a t w i t h t h e le g a l
team.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t s te p s c a n b e t a k e n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s I w i ll a tt e n d t o t h a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : M r K h u b a c o u l d y o u te ll t h e C h a ir t h e h is to r y
of your employment at IPID?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l m a y b e b e fo r e ju s t t h e h i s t o r y o f e m p l o y m e n t a t

Page 146 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
I P I D y o u c o u l d j u s t ta k e a f e w s e c o n d s to t a lk a b o u t y o u r s e l f? W h a t i s
your back – what was your background before you came to IPID and so
on?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Th a n k y o u . I jo i n e d th e I P I D in
1 9 9 9 if I r e m e m b e r v e r y w e ll i t w a s 1 s t J a n u a r y a n d b e f o r e t h a t I w a s
w i t h A n g lo A m e r ic a n w h e r e I w a s c o n d u c ti n g in v e s t i g a t io n i n g o ld t h e f t .
So…
C H A I R P E R S O N : In w h a t th e f t?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e ft o f g o l d .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Gold?
MR

HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

J a I u s e d to w o r k c lo s e ly w it h

t h e g o l d a n d d ia m o n d b r a n c h .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : In S p r in g s J o h a n n e s b u r g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a m . Is t h a t b r a n c h o f t h e p o l ic e ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: I joined the ICD on a rank of an
A s s is ta n t
20

D ir e c t o r

where

s u p e r v i s i n g i n v e s t ig a to r s .

I

was

responsible

i n v e s ti g a ti o n

and

I n th e y e a r 2 0 0 0 I w a s t h e n r e q u e s te d t o

e x t e n d my s e r v ic e s t o Fr e e S ta t e w h ic h b y t h e n w a s n o t h a v i n g a
P r o v i n c ia l o ff ic e e s ta b l is h e d . S o I w a s g i v e n t w o m e m b e r s o f S A P S t o
s u p e r v i s e w h il e I w a s s til l r e s p o n s ib le f o r N o r t h e r n C a p e .

Then

t o w a r d s th e e n d o f 2 0 0 0 th a t is w h e n I w a s a p p o i n te d A c t in g H e a d o f
t h e P r o v in c e N o r t h e r n C a p e . B e c a u s e th e p e r s o n w h o w a s m y d i r e c t

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s u p e r v i s o r w a s a P r o v i n c ia l H e a d h a d b e e n m o v e d t o Fr e e S t a t e to
e s t a b li s h t h e o ffic e t h e r e b e c a u s e s t a ti s t i c a l ly i t w a s g e n e r a ti n g m o r e
c a s e s th a n N o r th e r n C a p e .

S o I r e m a i n e d r e s p o n s i b l e f o r N o r th e r n

C a p e a n d 2 0 0 1 I w a s a p p o i n t e d a s n o w a P r o v i n c ia l H e a d b u t n o t fo r
Northern Cape but for Limpopo Province.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is w a s n o w b e f o r e I P I D w a s e s t a b li s h e d ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : B e f o r e I P I D it w a s s ti ll I C D .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u

were

w it h

th e

predecessor

of

IPID

the

o r g a n i s a t io n w h a t i t w a s c a l le d b e f o r e ?
10

M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : It w a s c a l le d IC D .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I a m s a y i n g y o u w e r e w i th t h a t o r g a n is a ti o n a t

t h e ti m e ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR

H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

S o 2 0 0 3 w h i l e I w a s th e

P r o v i n c ia l H e a d fo r L i m p o p o t h e y r e q u e s t e d m e to g o a n d m a n a g e
M p u m a la n g a o ffic e . B y t h a t t i m e i t w a s e s t a b li s h e d b u t t h e Pr o v i n c i a l
H e a d t h e r e s e e m i n g ly l e ft a n d I w a s t h e o n e r e s p o n s ib l e s u p e r v i s i n g
t w o p r o v i n c e s . S o I u s e d to d o i t o n a w e e k ly b a s is .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is w h a t y e a r n o w ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : 2 0 0 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s t il l u n d e r I C D ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : S t il l u n d e r I C D .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t d id IC D m e a n – s t a n d fo r a g a in o r y o u h a v e g o t
it h e r e I n d e p e n d e n t C o m p l a i n ts D ir e c t o r a te .

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M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : In d e p e n d e n t C o m p la i n t s
C H A I R P E R S O N : D ir e c t o r a t e .
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : D ir e c t o r a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t . T h e n …
CHAIRPERSON:

So it was Limpopo and Northern Cape?

O r w h ic h

P r o v i n c e s w e r e y o u r e s p o n s ib l e f o r n o w ?
MR

H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I was responsible for Limpopo

and Mpumalanga.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR

HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

During – when I was he

P r o v i n c ia l H e a d I w a s o n a D e p u t y D ir e c t o r l e v e l . Th e n o n t h e 1 s t J u ly
2 0 0 7 th a t i s w h e n I w a s p r o m o te d t o a d ir e c t o r l e v e l b u t s ti ll h a v i n g th e
s a m e r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s a s Pr o v i n c i a l H e a d . I n 2 0 11 I w a s tr a n s f e r r e d t o
K Z N fo r s ix m o n t h s w h e r e I w a s r e q u e s t e d to s e t u p t h e o ff ic e .
B e c a u s e b y th a t ti m e t h e o ffic e w a s b a t t li n g t o m e e t s tr a te g ic
o b j e c ti v e s o f th e d e p a r t m e n t .

S o I w a s r e q u e s ti n g – r e q u e s te d t o g o

a n d s e t u p s y s t e m s a n d a ls o t r y to a s s is t t h e o ffi c e t o a c h ie v e s tr a t e g ic
o b j e c ti v e s . T h e n a t th e b e g i n n i n g o f 2 0 1 2 a f t e r I h a d a lr e a d y r e t u r n e d
20

t o L i m p o p o I w a s r e q u e s t e d t o h e a d th e ta s k t e a m c a l le d t h e C a to
M a n o r Ta s k Te a m w h e r e w e w e r e i n v e s t ig a ti n g t h e s o c a l l e d th e D e a t h
Squad.

I w a s g i v e n m e m b e r s fr o m v a r io u s p r o v in c e s b u t i t w a s

p r e d o m i n a n tl y i n v e s ti g a to r s f r o m N o r t h W e s t .

T h e n a ft e r t h a t I w a s

t h r e a t e n e d a n d w h e n I w a s th r e a te n e d I s ti ll r e m e m b e r t h e y d id
t h r e a t e n [ i n d is ti n c t ] t h e y s e n t p e o p l e o f t h e S S A b y t h a t t i m e it u s e d t o

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b e c a l l e d N I A – N a ti o n a l I n te ll ig e n t A g e n c y.

T h e y c a m e a n d t h e y d id

a s s e s s m e n t a n d t h e y t o l d m e b e c a u s e th e y v i s i t e d m e a t t h e h o t e l a t
n i g h t a n d t h e y t o l d m e t h a t y o u h a v e t o l e a v e . T h e f o ll o w i n g d a y I t h i n k
I g o t t h e e a r l ie s t fl i g h t a n d I l e f t . I s til l r e m e m b e r I le f t t h e c a r t h e r e .
Now when I came back…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. Yo u s a y a s s o o n a s y o u l e f t? Yo u l e f t t h e
fir s t f li g h t t h e f o l l o w i n g m o r n in g .
MR

H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

I t h i n k i t w a s t h e f ir s t fl ig h t I

h a d to …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A f t e r t h e y h a d n o ti f ie d y o u t h e p r e v i o u s n ig h t ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y y o u h a v e to le a v e ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Because the …
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e t h r e a ts w e r e r e a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e t h r e a ts w e r e r e a l.
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is to k il l y o u ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .

20

CHAIRPERSON: Okay Hm.
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e n I l e f t w e n t b a c k t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d t h e y i n d ic a t e w h e r e t h e t h r e a t s c a m e fr o m ?
MR

H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e – th e r e w a s a n i n d ic a ti o n

t h a t th e r e w a s – th e y g o t i n f o r m a t io n fr o m a g u y w h o w a s b e l o n g i n g t o
a t a x i a s s o c i a ti o n w h o w a s r e q u e s te d to s h o o t m e b u t h e h a d s o m e

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r e s e r v a ti o n s a n d h e in f o r m e d th e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. H m

A n d w a s t h a t c o n n e c t e d w it h y o u r w o r k ?

M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : It w a s c o n n e c t e d w i t h m y w o r k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t h e n l e ft a n d t h e n w h e n I w a s
b a c k in L i m p o p o t h e n t h a t i s w h e n I w a s t o ld t h a t I a m g o i n g t o b e
d e a li n g w i th a r e n d it i o n . T h a t w a s 2 0 1 2 I w a s a p p o i n t e d t o i n v e s ti g a t e
r e n d i ti o n .

B u t b e fo r e th a t r e n d i t io n I w a s r e q u e s t e d to in v e s t i g a t e

a l le g a ti o n s w h ic h r a i s e d b y a p a r l ia m e n t a r y m e m b e r a g a i n s t G e n e r a l
10

S i b iy a . Th e n I a s s e m b l e d a v e r y s m a l l t e a m a n d t h e n I i n v e s ti g a te d t h e
a l le g a ti o n .

I p r o v id e d a r e p o r t a n d th e m a t t e r w e r e c o n c lu d e d .

And

t h e n s h o r t ly a f te r th a t t h a t i s w h e n I w a s a p p o in t e d t o i n v e s t ig a t e
ill e g a l r e n d it i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e – t h e a ll e g a ti o n s a g a i n s t G e n e r a l Si b iy a t h a t y o u
in v e s t i g a t e d a f te r y o u m a d e y o u r r e p o r t – y o u r r e p o r t w o u ld h a v e g o n e
t o w h o ? W h o d id y o u s u b m i t i t t o ?
MR

HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I s e n t to a r e p o r t to t h e D P P

G a u t e n g b e c a u s e t h o s e c a s e s i t w a s n o t o n ly a o n e c a s e – i t w e r e a
number of cases.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A g a in s t h i m ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : A g a i n s t h i m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR

HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I n c l u d i n g a s s a u lt I t h in k t h e

m a jo r i ty w a s a s s a u l t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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MR

HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h e n o n e o f t h e c a s e w h ic h I

r e m e m b e r v e r y w e l l w h ic h w a s B o k s b u r g c a s e .

I t w a s a lr e a d y

in v e s t i g a t e d b y o u r G a u t e n g o ffi c e a n d t h e r e p o r t h a d a lr e a d y b e e n
p r o d u c e d a n d s e n t to D P P a n d th e D P P d e c li n e d t o p r o s e c u t e .
CHAIRPERSON: So the report was saying prosecute?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : N o it w a s s a y in g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h i t d id n o t ja .
MR

H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I t w a s n o t r e c o m m e n d in g

prosecution.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t I to o k o v e r t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n
a n d i d e n t i fi e d a n u m b e r o f d is c r e p a n c i e s i n t h a t i n v e s ti g a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR

H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I f o u n d t h a t t h e r e w i tn e s s e s

w h o w e r e n o t c o n t a c ta b le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r v ie w e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a w e r e n o t in t e r v i e w e d . S o m e
o f t h e p e o p le w e r e tr e a te d a s w i t n e s s e s w h e r e a s t h e y w e r e s u s p e c ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I d i d a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d a f t e r
t h a t a r e p o r t w a s d o n e w h ic h c o u l d h a v e m e a n t th a t i t w a s a s e c o n d
r e p o r t fo r th e d e p a r t m e n t b u t i t w a s th e f ir s t r e p o r t fr o m m e . N o w w h e n
I s e n t th a t r e p o r t I s ti ll r e m e m b e r I h a d c o n s u l t a ti o n w i th A d v o c a t e –
t h e H e a d o f th e D P P a s w e ll a s th e p r o s e c u to r w h o w a s a s s i g n e d to
d e a l w i th t h e c a s e . A n d t h e y s a i d o k a y y o u c a n d o u s a f a v o u r.

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We

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
s a w y o u r r e p o r t . W e l o o k a t th e a d d i t io n a l e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u g o t. G iv e
u s t h e c h a n c e to c o n s u l t w i t h a l l t h e w it n e s s e s .
a r r a n g e m e n t.

I made that

T h e y c o n s u l t w i t h t h e w i tn e s s e s a n d fi n a l ly th e y w r o t e

b a c k t o m e . T h e y s a y d e s p i t e h a v i n g a c q u ir e d a d d i t io n a l e v i d e n c e w e
a r e s t il l o f t h e v i e w a s N PA – a s N PA t h a t th e r e is n o p r o s p e c ts o f
s u c c e s s fu l p r o s e c u ti o n .

T h e n I g o t t h a t in f o r m a t io n I r e l a t e d th e

in f o r m a ti o n t o t h e c o m p l a i n a n t a n d a ls o b e c a u s e I h a d a d is c u s s i o n
with him and I said because the complainant was a person who was just
k e e p o n c a l li n g m e n o w a n d t h e n a l s o i n d i c a t e t o h i m w h a t w o u ld b e th e
10

a v e n u e if y o u d e c i d e d n o t t o p r o s e c u te . A n d th e y w r o t e t h e r e to s a y t o
h i m y o u c a n p u r s u e p r iv a t e p r o s e c u ti o n . I t h e n w r o t e a l e t te r t o t h e
c o m p la i n a n t a n d I w r o t e a l e tt e r t o G e n e r a l S ib iy a t o s a y th a t I
in v e s t i g a t e d a c a s e a g a in s t y o u p l e a s e b e in f o r m e d t h a t t h e D P P
d e c l in e d t o p r o s e c u t e . A n d t h a t i s w h e n i t w a s c o n c l u d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o u l d y o u e x p la i n t o th e C h a ir h o w i t w a s t h a t
y o u c a m e t o b e in v o lv e d i n t h e R e n d i ti o n i n v e s ti g a ti o n ?
MR

HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h e R e n d i ti o n in v e s t i g a t io n I

w a s i n fo r m e d e a r l i e r th a t I w o u l d i n v e s t ig a te t h e c a s e b u t a t t h e t i m e I
20

d i d n o t h a v e f a c ts – e n o u g h f a c ts in t e r m s o f w h a t r e a ll y h a p p e n e d .
B e c a u s e I r e m e m b e r t h e r e w a s a m e e ti n g w h e r e w e m e t w i t h t h e
S e c r e t a r y o f P o li c e J e n n i Q h o b o s h e a n e h a d a d i s c u s s io n a n d i n t h e
m e e ti n g th a t is w h e r e s h e i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e M i n is t e r w o u l d w a n t y o u t o
in v e s t i g a t e it b u t f o r n o w h e w a n t s y o u to h o l d o ff. T h a t p a r t ic u l a r d a y
w e d i d n o t g e t a n y d o c u m e n ts o r a n y d o c k e t f o r i n v e s t ig a ti o n .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is w o u l d h a v e b e e n a r o u n d 2 0 11 ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I n m y – m y s t a t e m e n t – b e c a u s e
I c h e c k e d m y r e c o r d s a n d t h e r e h a s b e e n a li t t le b i t c o n fl ic ti n g i n my
r e c o r d s b e c a u s e n o r m a l ly I w o u ld n o t r e l y o n m e m o r y I w i ll c h e c k – I
r e m e m b e r t h e r e w a s a t r i p t h a t I to o k a r o u n d J u ly 2 0 1 2 w h e r e I
in d i c a t e d s p e c i f ic a l ly p u r p o s e o f th e m e e ti n g .

B u t t h a t is a m e e ti n g

t h a t I t o o k a s if t h e m e e ti n g w h e r e w e m e t w i t h Q h o b o s h e a n e a b o u t th e
– the event.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u r – is y o u r p o s i t io n th a t y o u th i n k it m u s t h a v e
10

been around mid-2012 when you met with Ms Qhobosheane?
MR

HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h a t is t h e r e c o r d t h a t I t o o k

fr o m t h e tr a v e l c l a i m s th a t I d id .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B e c a u s e M r S e s o k o i f I r e c a ll c o r r e c tl y th o u g h t
t h a t y o u w e r e – t h e fir s t t i m e th a t h e b e c a m e a w a r e th a t th e M i n is t e r
w a n t e d s o m e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t o b e d o n e i n r e la t io n t o t h e s o c a l le d
R e n d i t io n b u t s a i d th a t – o r th e y w e r e to l d t h a t t h e y h a d t o h o ld o n u n t il
f u r th e r n o t ic e f r o m t h e M in is t e r.
20

He thought that must have been

a r o u n d – t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f 2 0 11 . Yo u a r e n o t s u r e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I n e v e r r e l ie d o n m y r e c o l le c ti o n
w h e n I p u t t h e i n fo r m a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I r e l ie d o n th e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t I
w r o t e w i t h my tr a v e l [ in d i s ti n c t ] .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : S o I k n o w t h a t I h a d n u m e r o u s
m e e ti n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR

HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

W i t h a ls o Q h o b o s h e a n e

b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a ti m e w h e n I w e n t th e r e . I th in k s h e a ls o w a n t e d
m e t o j u s t s p e a k t o h e r a b o u t h o w t h e in v e s t ig a ti o n w a s g o i n g . B u t t h i s
o n e i n t h e tr i p a u th o r i ty t h a t I d i d i t w a s k i n d o f r e a ll y r e v o l v i n g a r o u n d .
A n d I w a s a w a r e o f t h e i n f o r m a ti o n th a t it c o u l d h a v e b e e n 2 0 – b u t t h e
10

p o i n t o f t h e m a t te r is t h a t I n e e d to p u t w h a t I c a n b e g o n e e y e c a n
s e e .\
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: So you would be more inclined to think it was around
mid-year 2012?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h a t t h e h a p p e n e d a c c o r d in g t o y o u r

s t a te m e n t o n th e 2 3 r d O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 ? I f y o u h a v e r e g a r d t o p a r a g r a p h
20

13 on page 4.
MR

H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t is w h e n Mr S e s o k o

in f o r m e d m e t h a t h e h a d r e c e iv e d i n s t r u c t io n f r o m t h e E x e c u tiv e
D ir e c t o r t h a t n o w t h a t c a s e n e e d s t o b e in v e s t ig a t e d . B y th a t ti m e t h e
f o r m e r E x e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r t h a t is Fr a n c o is B e u k m a n h a d a lr e a d y l e f t t h e
d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s a c t in g i n h i s p la c e w a s Ms K o e k ie

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Mbeki.

S o h e a p p o in t – h a n d e d to m e a n a p p o i n t m e n t l e t t e r a n d t h e

d o c k e t w h ic h a f t e r th a t I p e r u s e d .
390/7/2012.

T h e c a s e n u m b e r w a s D ie p s l o o t

A n d u p o n m y p e r u s a l o f th e d o c k e t b e c a u s e I w a n t e d t o

c h e c k t h e w o r k w h ic h w a s d o n e I r e a l i s e d t h a t t h e r e w e r e a l m o s t
t h ir t e e n s t a te m e n ts .

M o s t o f t h e s e s t a te m e n ts w e r e fr o m C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n t m e m b e r s a n d m e m b e r s o f t h e f a m ily o f t h e a ll e g e d d e p o r te d
in d i v i d u a l . S o I w a s a ls o r e q u e s t e d t o a s s e m b l e t h e t e a m a n d b e c a u s e
I w a s w e l l a c q u a in t e d w i th m y s t a ff I h a d t o s o u r c e t h e c a p a c i ty fr o m
m y o ffi c e . T h e n I c h o s e M r M a p h e t h o , M r M u l a u d z i , M r M a s h a p h u a n d
10

M r R a ts h i t a l i t o a s s is t m e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

B e fo r e w e m o v e o n .

Yo u w i ll s e e th a t t h e

c a s e n u m b e r o f t h e d o c k e t w a s D i e p s l o o t. W a s t h e r e s o m e t h i n g w r i tt e n
o n t h e o u ts i d e o f th a t d o c k e t w h i c h w a s o f in t e r e s t t o y o u ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

That is correct.

The case

n u m b e r w a s D ie p s l o o t b u t o n to p th e r e w a s a c a s e n u m b e r I t w a t w a . S o
I h a d a n e n g a g e m e n t w i t h C o l o n e l M o u k a n g w e a ft e r m y p e r u s a l .

We

h a d o u r m e e ti n g a t E m p e r o r s P la c e a n d I w a n t e d t o f in d o u t w h y I n e e d
…
CHAIRPERSON: Emperors Place here in Gauteng?
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I w a n t e d t o fi n d o u t w h y t h e r e

a r e t w o c a s e n u m b e r s a n d d i ff e r e n t s t a ti o n s a n d th a t is w h e n h e to l d
m e th a t t h e y h a d t o r e g is t e r i t a t I t w a t w a o n th e b a s is th a t t h e y w e r e
a fr a i d t h a t i f t h e y c o u ld r e g is t e r i t a t D ie p s lo o t b e fo r e a n y in v e s t i g a t io n

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is d o n e i t w il l r a is e s o m e r e d f la g s a n d p r o b a b l y th o s e p e o p l e w h o a r e
in v e s t i g a t e d w o u ld b e a b l e t o i n te r f e r e w i t h w it n e s s e s o r tr y to i n t e r fe r e
w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n . S o it w a s j u s t d o n e fo r c o n c e a l m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d is I tw a t w a a p o li c e s t a ti o n i n L i m p o p o - o n e o f

t h e p o li c e s t a ti o n s i n L i m p o p o ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : ( N o a u d i b le r e p ly ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h a t is I t w a t w a ?

D o e s i t r e f e r t o a n y p o li c e

s t a ti o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
10

What I was made to understand

is t h a t I t w a tw a i s t h e p o l ic e s t a t i o n a r o u n d G a u t e n g n o t in L i m p o p o .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh not in Limpopo?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u h a v e n o i d e a w h e r e t h a t - w h e r e t h a t p o l ic e
s t a ti o n is ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w i f i t a c t u a ll y e x i s t s o r n o t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I d i d n o t e v e n c h e c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o u l d y o u e x p la i n t o t h e C h a ir w h o y o u w e r e

20

r e q u e s t e d to d e a l w i th i n t h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d w h o y o u w e r e r e q u e s t e d
t o e x c l u d e fr o m t h e in v e s ti g a t io n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Th e n w h e n I c o m m e n c e d w i th m y
- m y w o r k t h e t h e n A c ti n g E x e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r M s K o e k i e M b e k i g a v e m e
a n i n s tr u c ti o n v e r b a ll y to s a y th a t I n e e d t o w o r k w i t h M o u k a n g w e w h o m
I u n d e r s to o d w a s th e i n i t ia l i n v e s ti g a t o r o n t h e b a s is n u m b e r o f

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s t a te m e n ts h a d b e e n c o m m i s s io n e d I t h i n k b y h i m o r h e w a s p a r t o f th a t
in v e s t i g a t io n b u t i n t h a t i n s t r u c t i o n t o w o r k w i t h h i m it c a m e w i th a l e a d
t o s a y k e e p h is in v o lv e m e n t s e c r e t a n d I h a d s o m e c o n c e r n s a b o u t t h a t.
O n t h e b a s is t h a t m y p e r u s a l o f th e d o c k e t w a s n o t m e r e ly t o
c h e c k n u m b e r o f s ta t e m e n t p e r s e .

I t in v o lv e d r e a d i n g th e c o n t e n t o f

e a c h a n d e v e r y s t a t e m e n t a n d I s ti ll r e m e m b e r I h a d a p a p e r w h e r e I
w a s s c r i b b li n g e v e r y - to c h e c k w h a t w a s g o i n g o n p e r s t a te m e n t w h a t
ty p e o f l e a d s I w a s g o in g to fi n d .

T h e n I r e a l is e d t h a t a n u m b e r o f

p e o p l e w h o w e r e in v o lv e d i n t h i s r e n d it io n p r o c e s s w e r e a ls o C I
10

members.
S o I th o u g h t t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e l e v e l o f c o n f li c t t h e r e
b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e i n v o lv e d i n th is r e n d it i o n o r d e p o r t a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o w C I b e i n g C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d C o lo n e l M o u k a n g w e w a s a m e m b e r o f t h e C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y ; a n d i f th e r e w e r e 1 3 s t a te m e n ts a l r e a d y
in th e fi le w h e n y o u - w h e n i t w a s h a n d e d o v e r t o y o u th a t s e e m s to

20

s u g g e s t t o m e t h a t s u b s t a n ti a l w o r k h a d b e e n d o n e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O n e c o u l d s a y th a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Unless

c o n te n t o f t h e s t a te m e n t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, h m .

Page 158 of 182

if one

goes

to

th e

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e f a m il y m e m b e r s ta t e m e n ts

o b v i o u s l y w o u l d t a lk t o t h e is s u e o f w h e n t h e p o l ic e c a m e a n d a r r e s t e d
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O r w h e n d id th e y l a s t ly s a w th e ir
lo v e d o n e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B u t t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e p o lic e

s t a te m e n ts t a lk t o t h e - w h e n th e y a r r e s t e d t h e s e p e o p l e th a t
10

General Sibiya was there to an extent that even two of the Zimbabwean
N a t io n a l s w h o w e r e a t th e t i m e w h e n I t o o k o v e r t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n w e r e
u n d e r w i t n e s s p r o te c t i o n .

I n t h e i r s ta t e m e n t s t h e y w e r e a ll e g i n g t h a t

G e n e r a l S i b i y a w a s th e r e .
H e w a s w e a r in g a s u i t . S o m e o f t h e m e m b e r s o f C I t h e y w e r e
s a y in g w e s a w a f ig u r e s e a t e d i n a B M W …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
General Sibiya.

And

I

was

that

was

S o t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s - i t s p o k e a ls o a b o u t t h e

is s u e o f th e m o n e y w h ic h w a s s to le n b u t i t c o u l d n o t r e a ll y h a v e - it d id
20

n o t c o r r o b o r a t io n m u c h b u t it w a s j u s t - it w a s m o r e o f a n a l le g a ti o n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

D id y o u l a te r tr y a n d in v o lv e y o u r b o s s

e s s e n ti a l ly Mr S e s o k o in t h i s i n v e s ti g a ti o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
keep

C o l o n e l M o u k a n g w e ’s

W h e n I w a s to l d t h a t I s h o u l d

i n v o lv e m e n t

a

secret

I

in d i c a t e d

to

M s K o e k i e M b e k i t h a t I w i ll b e in v o lv i n g M r S e s o k o i n th is in v e s ti g a t i o n

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b e c a u s e m y e x p e r i e n c e h a s a l w a y s to l d m e t h a t n o r m a ll y w h e n I d o a n
in v e s t i g a t io n I d o n o t r e p o r t t o t h e h e a d o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t . I r e p o r t to
t h e d i r e c t s u p e r v is o r w h o th e n r e p o r ts to t h e Ex e c u ti v e D ir e c to r
d e p e n d in g o n t h e le v e l .
N o w w h e n y o u s a y th a t s h e c a te g o r i c a ll y i n d ic a te d to m e th a t
M r S e s o k o s h a ll n o t b e i n v o lv e d a n d b e c a u s e M r S e s o k o w a s n o t
m e r e ly a N a ti o n a l H e a d o f I n v e s t ig a ti o n . H e w a s m y S u p e r v is o r. I t h e n
w e n t t o h i m a n d i n fo r m e d h i m a b o u t t h e s e p e o p l e a n d I d i d s o b e c a u s e
I w a n t e d h i s v i e w a n d h e s a i d t o m e s h e is t h e H e a d o f th e D e p a r t m e n t .
10

I f s h e s a y s y o u m u s t n o t i n v o lv e m e d o n o t i n v o l v e m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s W e n tz e l I t a k e it th a t b o th Mr S e s o k o ’s s t a t e m e n t
o r r e le v a n t p o r ti o n s t h e r e o f a n d Mr K h u b a ’s s t a te m e n t a t le a s t t h e
relevant

p o r ti o n s

thereof

th a t

a ff e c t

M s K o e k ie M b e k i

-

M s K o e k i e M b e k i w e r e s e n t to h e r …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I ta k e it t h a t t h e r e h a s b e e n n o r e s p o n s e ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t s o m e t h in g y o u k n o w ? Is t h e r e s o m e t h in g y o u
do not know?
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: There have been one or two responses that a n d I h a v e r e c e iv e d o n e l a t e l a s t n i g h t a n d I w a n t t o c h e c k w h o i t c a m e
fr o m b e c a u s e I th in k i t m ig h t b e h e r a t to r n e y s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A p p a r e n t ly t h e o n e I a m r e f e r r in g t o w a s n o t
fr o m h e r a t t o r n e y s b u t th e - th e R u le 3 . 3 w a s s e n t t o h e r ti m e o u s ly.

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 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I th i n k p la n s m u s t b e p u t i n p l a c e f o r R e g u l a ti o n
1 0 . 6 d ir e c ti v e in r e g a r d t o h e r a s w e ll .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t s h e c a n b e d ir e c t e d to f il e a n a ffi d a v it d e a l in g
w i t h t h e s e a ll e g a t io n s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I w il l a tt e n d t o t h a t a s w e l l . N o w y o u s a y i n
y o u r s t a t e m e n t a f t e r h a v in g h a d th is c o n v e r s a ti o n w it h M r S e s o k o y o u
10

c o n ti n u e d t o i n v e s t ig a t e th e c a s e w i t h o u t M r S e s o k o ’s i n v o lv e m e n t a n d
y o u k e p t C o l o n e l M o u k a n g w e a p p r is e d o f t h e s i t u a t io n .

Can you just

t e ll t h e C h a ir a b o u t y o u r d e a l in g s w it h C o l o n e l M o u k a n g w e ? W h e r e y o u
w o u ld m e e t ? W h ic h e m a il a d d r e s s e s y o u w e r e a s k e d to u s e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

C o l o n e l M o u k a n g w e ’s

in v o lv e m e n t i n m y i n v e s t ig a ti o n th e r e w e r e ti m e s w h e n h e w a s p a r t o f
t h e i n t e r v ie w s t h a t I d i d . H e w a s p a r t o f m e e ti n g s th a t I h a d w i t h t h e
p r o s e c u t o r s w h o w e r e g u id i n g th e c a s e . W e w e r e s h a r i n g e v e r y p a r t o f
t h e d o c k e t b u t th a t w a s a f t e r I r e q u e s te d t h e th e n A c ti n g E x e c u t iv e
D ir e c t o r w h e t h e r I s h o u l d b e a b l e t o g iv e h i m - i f h e r e q u e s ts 20

d o c u m e n ts a n d I w a s t o ld t h a t h e is a m e m b e r o f th e te a m .
Yo u c a n s h a r e h i m w i t h a n y th i n g . T h e o n ly t h i n g t h a t I h a v e
t o d o w a s t o k e e p h is in v o lv e m e n t s e c r e t. S o t h e r e w e r e t i m e s t h a t I
w o u ld g i v e h i m a c a ll a n d t e l l h i m t h a t I g o t c e r t a in in f o r m a t io n a n d h e
h a d b e e n v e r y i n s tr u m e n t a l b e c a u s e w i t h h is e x p e r i e n c e in t h e S A P S .
S o m e t i m e s w h e n I w o u l d h a v e s o m e c h a ll e n g e s I w o u l d t e ll h i m to s a y I

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h a v e a p r o b l e m I c a n n o t g e t o n e , t w o , t h r e e in d iv i d u a ls a n d w i th n o
ti m e h e w i ll j u s t c o m e b a c k t o m e a n d s a y u s e th is c h a n n e l y o u w i ll b e
a b l e t o g e t h o ld o f t h e m .
N o w w h e n I g a v e h i m p r o g r e s s s o m e t i m e s h e w o u ld r e q u e s t
m e t o e m a il t h i n g s .

T h e fir s t m a il - e m a i l t h a t h e g a v e m e w a s

b o t s o ts o m o u k a n g w e @ g m a i l .c o m . S o I u s e d t o - t o s e n d a n y d o c u m e n t
a n y s t a t e m e n t t o - t o h i m b u t w h e n I s t a r t e d to b e a b l e t o g e t s e r i o u s
in f o r m a ti o n . I a m s a y i n g s e r io u s o n th e b a s i s t h a t it i m p l ic a t e d s e n io r
p e o p l e . H e g a v e m e a n e w e m a il a d d r e s s .
10

I t w a s j u n e 1 6 @ g m a il . c o m b u t i t g a v e m e s u s p ic io n b e c a u s e
t h e b o ts o to s m o u k a n g w e @ g m a il .c o m e m a i l I w o u ld e m a il f r o m m y l a p to p
b e c a u s e I h a d 3 G . A t a n y w h e r e I c o u ld o p e n m y e m a ils a n d a t t a c h it o r
e m a i l s o m e t h in g o r i n fo r m a ti o n . E v e n t h o u g h s o m e ti m e s I w o u l d h a v e
t o g o t o t h e o ffi c e t o s c a n t h e d o c u m e n t i n t o my e m a il .
N o w w h e n h e g a v e m e t h a t e m a il h e c a t e g o r ic a l ly in d ic a t e d
t h a t I s h o u l d n o t u s e t h e o ffi c i a l e m a i l a n d h e a d v is e d m e t o u s e a n
e m a i l o r t h e fa c i li ty a t S o u t h e r n S u n w h e r e I u s e d to s t a y w h i l e I w a s
in v e s t i g a t in g th e c a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is th a t s o u t h e r n - S o u t h e r n S u n H o t e l ?

20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s . I n Pr e t o r i a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In P r e t o r ia ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e e m a i l a d d r e s s th a t y o u h a d u s e d b e f o r e h e g a v e
y o u t h e o n e w h i c h y o u s a i d w a s j u n e 1 6 @ g m a il .c o m o r w h a t e v e r.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H m .

Page 162 of 182

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CHAIRPERSON:

W a s th a t h i s o ff ic ia l a d d r e s s - t h e fir s t o n e th a t y o u

w e r e u s in g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

No.

I a m n o t r e a lly s u r e b u t

w h a t I w a s a w a r e o f is th a t t h e C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e p e o p l e n o r m a lly t h e y
u s e - m o s tl y t h e y d o n o t u s e o ffi c i a l e m a il s . I t i s - i t i s G m a il o r Ya h o o
o r i t is - b u t n o t - I - I h a v e n e v e r e x p e r ie n c e d s o m e o n e w h o w o u l d s a y
s e n d m e ; s o th e o n e h e g a v e i t is B o ts o ts o I w a s m o r e c o m f o r t a b l e
because

I

used

to

call

him

-

he

told

me

th a t

h is

name

B o ts o ts o M o u k a n g w e .
10

S o i t - t h e f ir s t n a m e I w a s s o m e h o w g iv e n a s s u r a n c e b y th e
m e r e g l a n c e a t th e e m a i l t o s a y i t is h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t it w a s h is ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u b e c a m e c o n c e r n e d w h e n h e g a v e y o u t h e
ju n e 1 6 @ g m a il .c o m o n e a n d s a i d d o n o t u s e t h e o t h e r o n e o r d o n o t u s e
h is o ffi c i a l e m a il ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

20

M o r e e s p e c i a l ly w h e n J u n e , t h e

16th is a …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t h a s s o m e p o li t ic a l c o n n e c t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w a f t e r y o u m e t C o lo n e l M o u k a n g w e y o u

s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 2 0 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t h e in s tr u c te d y o u t o w o r k w i t h

Page 163 of 182

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two

advocates

fr o m

the

N a t io n a l

P r o s e c u t in g

A u t h o r i ty.

A d v o c a t e s M o s in g a n d M o le ts i . W h a t r e a s o n w a s g iv e n t o y o u f o r t h a t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e t o l d m e t h a t t h e s e a r e p e o p l e
w h o h a d b e e n g u id in g t h is i n v e s ti g a t i o n .

W h ic h m e a n s w h il e h e w a s

in v e s t i g a t in g th e c a s e h e w a s c o n s u l ti n g w it h th e m .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And you say in paragraph 26 on page 7 that:
“ A d v o c a t e M o s in g w a s f o r s o m e r e a s o n e x tr e m e l y
k e e n to fi n a l is e t h e r e n d i ti o n i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d p u t
p r e s s u r e o n y o u t o p r i o r i t is e t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . ”
10

C o u ld y o u j u s t e x p a n d o n th a t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
in v e s t i g a t io n I w a s o n d u a l r o le s .

T h e - w h e n I w a s d o i n g th is

I w a s s t il l r e s p o n s ib le f o r L i m p o p o

a n d o n th e o t h e r h a n d I h a d t o i n v e s ti g a t e t h e c a s e .

S o I w o u ld

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

H a d - h a d y o u c e a s e d t o b e a l s o r e s p o n s i b le f o r

M p u m a la n g a ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B y t h a t ti m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Or were you …?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
20

I h a d a lr e a d y c e a s e d lo n g ti m e

ago.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

S o I h a d a c h a l le n g e b e c a u s e

w h e n I w e n t b a c k to t h e o ff ic e I h a d to c h e c k t h e w o r k d o n e . M a k i n g
s u r e th a t t h e o ff ic e is p e r fo r m i n g w e ll .

T h e r e w a s o n e ti m e I s ti ll

r e m e m b e r I g o t a n e m a il w h e r e h e w a s s a y in g t h a t w h e n a r e w e g o i n g

Page 164 of 182

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t o fi n a li s e t h is t h i n g a n d I t o ld h i m t h a t I - t h e r e is a n u n r e s t a t
( in d is ti n c t) a r o u n d Tz a n e e n .
S o I c a n n o t l e a v e th e s i t u a t io n li k e t h i s b e c a u s e t h e
P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r w a n t e d m e t o g o th e r e a n d a s s is t i n c a l m i n g
d o w n th e s i tu a ti o n . H e w a s r e a l ly k e e n t o g e t t h e s e t h in g s s u b m i t te d o r
fi n a l is e d .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Yo u w e r e b a s e d i n L i m p o p o .

Did you

fr e q u e n t ly c o m e a n d c o n s u l t w i t h h i m i n P r e to r i a ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
10

W e - I c o n s u l t e d w it h h i m s o

m a n i e r ti m e s t h a t I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r h o w m a n y a n d i t w i ll b e v e r y r a r e
t o c o m e a n d d o i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d n o t e n d u p v is i ti n g h i m a t t h e o ffi c e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d o n o n e o c c a s io n w h e n

y o u w e r e c o n s u l ti n g w i th h i m a n d Ms M b e k i s a w y o u t h e r e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Th e r e w a s a t i m e w h e n I w a s

b u s y tr y i n g t o d r a f t t h e 2 0 5 a p p l ic a ti o n s a n d I w e n t t o o u r H e a d O ffi c e .
I r e c e iv e d a c a l l fr o m t h e P e r s o n a l A s s is t a n t o f Ms M b e k i w h o s a i d t o
m e th a t th e A c ti n g Ex e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r h a d s e e n y o u a r o u n d h e r e a n d
s h e g a v e m e a m e s s a g e to te ll y o u th a t y o u a r e h e r e o n y o u r o w n .

I

w i ll n o t p a y f o r y o u r a c c o m m o d a ti o n .
20

I w i ll n o t p a y fo r y o u r tr a v e l c o s t . Yo u n e e d t o s e e h o w y o u
c o v e r t h o s e e x p e n s e s b e c a u s e y o u d i d n o t te ll m e t h a t y o u a r e c o m i n g
f o r i n v e s ti g a ti o n i n Pr e t o r i a .

I h a d a c h a ll e n g e w i th t h a t b e c a u s e t h e

p r e v i o u s w e e k o n Fr id a y I h a d a lr e a d y s e n t t h e w e e k l y w o r k p l a n w h i c h
s p e l l o u t m y a c t iv it i e s f o r th e fo ll o w i n g w e e k a n d a s u s u a l s h e w o u l d
n o t c o m m e n t o n w e e k ly w o r k p l a n a n d e v e r y Pr o v i n c i a l H e a d k n e w th a t

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w h e n y o u s e n d y o u r w e e k ly w o r k p l a n a n d y o u d o n o t g e t f e e d b a c k i t
m e a n s i t i s a lr i g h t y o u c a n c o n t in u e .
So I was surprised when I was queried on that.

Then I

d e c i d e d t h a t I n e e d t o f o r m a lis e th is b e c a u s e it w a s c o m m u n ic a t e d t o
m e t e l e p h o n ic a l ly a n d th e n I s e n d a n e m a il to h e r w h i c h I a m g o in g to
ju s t r e a d b e c a u s e I - I p a r a p h r a s e d it h e r e . I s e n t i t o n 5 J u ly 2 0 1 3 . I
said …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I think you mean paragraph 27.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
10

Oh paragraph 27.

S o r r y.

Ja.

S o in t h a t e m a il I in d i c a t e d t h a t p l e a s e g iv e m e a n o p p o r t u n i ty to b e
a b l e t o d o t h is w o r k I d o n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m in c o v e r in g m y c o s t f o r
a c c o m m o d a ti o n a n d e v e n i f y o u d o n o t p a y m e f o r tr a v e l c o s ts .
s t il l fi n e .

I am

I then arranged with my uncle - because I felt that on the

o th e r s id e I a m g e t t in g p r e s s u r e t h a t I fi n a l is e t h i s .

On the other

p r e s s u r e I a m b e i n g t o l d y o u c a n n o t r e a l ly c o m e h e r e .
Yo u w e r e s u p p o s e d to t a lk t o m e b u t I h a d a l r e a d y s e n t t h e
w e e k ly w o r k p l a n .

S o I t h e n p h o n e d m y u n c le a n d I s a i d c a n I g e t

a c c o m m o d a ti o n f o r t o n ig h t . Th e n h e s a i d it w a s o k a y. I d r o v e . Th e n I
a r r a n g e d p r iv a te a c c o m m o d a t io n a n d a f t e r t h a t I c o n t in u e d .
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Then what happened when Mr Mosing wanted
y o u t o c o m e a g a in ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Then

after

that

in c i d e n t

A d v o c a t e M o s i n g r e q u e s te d m e t o c o m e t o P r e t o r ia . Th e n I to ld h i m I
s a i d n o I c a n n o t c o m e . Yo u n e e d to t a l k t o my b o s s fir s t b e c a u s e th e
la s t ti m e I c a m e t h e r e s h e h a d s o m e is s u e s w i t h it a n d t h e n I r e q u e s te d

Page 166 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
h i m t o s e n d a n e m a il w h e r e h e c c ’d m e .

T h e e m a il w a s s e n t o n

5 J u ly 2 0 1 3 . T h a t i s w h e r e h e s a i d :
“ D e a r M s M b e k i , I c o n f ir m t h a t I m e t w it h M r K h u b a
t h is w e e k w h e r e w e d is c u s s e d p r o g r e s s o f t h i s
m a t t e r. I a m i n s tr u c t e d b y m y p r in c i p a l t o d r a w u p
c h a r g e s h e e ts .

I am in the progress to do so.

T h e r e a r e h o w e v e r c e r t a in i n v e s ti g a t i o n s d is c u s s e d
w i t h Mr K h u b a t h a t r e q u i r e s s p e e d y a tt e n t io n . T h e
p l a n is t o w r a p u p th is i n v e s t ig a ti o n w i th o u t d e l a y
10

a n d w e a g r e e d th a t h e d e v o t e s t h e w h o l e n e x t w e e k
f o r t h is p u r p o s e .

I f n o t p o s s ib le to c o m p l e te th e

c h a r g e s h e e t w h e n t h e r e a r e is s u e s o u t - s o r r y. I t
is n o t p o s s ib l e t o c o m p l e te t h e c h a r g e s h e e t w h e n
t h e r e a r e is s u e s o u ts t a n d in g .
g iv e

him

the

necessary

I tr u s t t h a t y o u w il l

p e r m i s s i o n /s u p p o r t

to

fi n a l is e t h is e s p e c i a l ly n o w t h a t v e r y i m p o r t a n t n e w
s t a te m e n ts w e r e o b ta i n th is w e e k . I tr u s t t h a t y o u
w i ll

f in d

t h is

in

o r d e r,

k in d

regard

Advocate Mosing.”
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir y o u w il l fi n d t h a t le t t e r - i t i s A n n e x u r e
H I K 2 a t p a g e 4 4 . N o w w h a t d id y o u n o ti c e a b o u t t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h i s
e m a i l ? W a s i t c c ’ d t o y o u - t h is e m a il ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h a t d i d y o u n o t i c e a b o u t i t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e o n e t h in g t h a t s ta n d - s t a n d

Page 167 of 182

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o u t fr o m t h i s e m a il f o r m e is t h a t it s h o w s t h a t I w a s n o t t h e o n ly
p e r s o n w h o w a s g e t ti n g p r e s s u r e fr o m - it s h o w s t h a t t h e p r e s s u r e I
w a s g e t t in g w a s a s a r e s u l t o f t h e p r e s s u r e h e w a s g e t t in g .

So -

b e c a u s e h e s a y s I a m g e tt i n g p r e s s u r e fr o m m y s e n i o r s .
S o w h i c h m e a n th e p r e s s u r e w h i c h I w a s g e t ti n g w a s a s a
r e s u l t o f t h e p r e s s u r e w h ic h h e w a s g e t ti n g . T h e o th e r t h i n g is t h a t h e
m a d e m e n t i o n o f th e c h a r g e s h e e t a n d f o r m e i t is s o m e t h i n g th a t
raises eyebrows.

W h e n y o u h a v e o u ts t a n d in g i n v e s ti g a t i o n y e t y o u

w a n t to d o t h e - t h e c h a r g e s h e e t .
10

U n l e s s i f t h a t s u c h o u ts ta n d i n g in v e s t i g a t io n o r w h a t e v e r
e v i d e n t i a r y m a t e r ia l y o u n e e d i t is o n e s i d e d . I t i s o n ly t o s u p p o r t y o u r
v e r s i o n . I t c a n n o t c o n tr a d ic t b u t i n t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n I h a v e l e a r n t t h a t
y o u c a n b e s u r p r i s e d w h e n s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u t h o u g h t i t i s in a
p a r t ic u l a r w a y b u t y o u g e t s o m e t h in g th a t c o n tr a d ic ts th a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i s y o u r p o i n t t h a t it w a s s tr a n g e th a t h e h a d

a lr e a d y m a d e u p h is m i n d t h a t th e r e w o u l d b e a c h a r g e s h e e t ?

S o in

o th e r w o r d s t h e y w o u l d c h a r g e s o m e b o d y a n d y e t t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s
n o t c o m p le t e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w M r K h u b a w h a t w e r e th e i m p o r t a n t n e w

s t a te m e n ts t h a t h a d b e e n o b t a i n e d t h a t w e e k th a t w e r e r e fe r r e d t o ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e n e w s t a t e m e n t s w h ic h h e

r e fe r r e d to w e r e t h e s t a t e m e n t s w h ic h w e r e o b ta in e d fr o m m e m b e r s o f
C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a n d th e s e a r e t h e s ta t e m e n ts w h ic h p e o p le w h o w e r e

Page 168 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
in v o lv e d i n t h e a r r e s t o f t h e s e Zi m b a b w e a n N a t i o n a l s d e p o s e d a n d
in d i c a t e d t h a t w h e n th e y a r r e s t o n e o f th e w a n t e d p e r s o n t h e y t o o k h i m
t o S ilv e r t o n w h e r e th e H a w k s O ff ic e s a r e a n d w h e n t h e y w e r e th e r e t h a t
is w h e n th e y s a w G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l - G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d
t h e s p o k e s p e r s o n o f t h e H a w k s b y t h e n w h o w a s M c In t o s h P o l e la .
N o w b y t h a t ti m e I h a d o b ta i n e d a n u m b e r o f s t a te m e n ts
w h ic h p o i n t to - t h e r e w e r e t h r e e m e m b e r s o f C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e b u t
w h e n t h e y d i d t h e ir o p e r a t io n t h e y w e r e a s s is t e d b y T R T m e m b e r s . S o
t h e y t o o k th is p e r s o n to g e th e r w i t h T R T m e m b e r s t o S ilv e r t o n b u t o f
10

t h e s e s ta t e m e n ts t h a t I o b ta i n e d i t w a s o n l y t h e - t h e C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e
members

who

said

when

they

were

with

the

person

th e r e

General Dramat came and he came with the spokesperson and he
t h a n k e d th e m f o r t h e w o r k w e ll d o n e a n d h e w a s c o mi n g fr o m h o u s e
number three to house number one.
N o w t h a t in f o r m a t io n s e e ms t o b e v e r y c r u c i a l b u t w h e n I
w e n t to t h e o t h e r p a r t o f - t h e p e o p l e w e r e th e r e b e c a u s e th e y d i d a
b r a a i t h e r e . Th e y e a t - t h e y w e r e t h e r e . W h e n I w e n t to th e o t h e r p a r t
all TRT members none of them remembered this.

They say no there

w a s n o s u c h . N o w t h a t c r e a t e d a p r o b le m f o r m e t o s a y …
20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y w e r e s a y in g G e n e r a l D r a m a t h a d n o t b e e n

in v o lv e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Ja.

T h e y s a i d th e y - t h e y s a i d

t h e y d id n o t s e e G e n e r a l - it w a s o n ly C I m e m b e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o s a id t h e y s a w h i m ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e y s a w h i m .

Page 169 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
CHAIRPERSON: Or were told he was there?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

J a . T h e y s a y h e c a m e w i th t h e

spokesperson …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d t h e y s a id h e th a n k e d t h e m

…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d h e l o o k e d a t th is g u y w h o

w a s a r r e s te d a b o u t t o b e d e p o r te d - i ll e g a l …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d a ft e r t h a t h e l e f t b u t w h e n I
in t e r v ie w e d t h e T R T m e m b e r w h ic h t h e n u m b e r o f t h e T R T n u m b e r w a s
g r e a t e r th a n t h e n u m b e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e p e o p l e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

O f t h e C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e I -

none of them …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Could

ever

m e n ti o n

-

they

m e n ti o n e d e v e r y t h i n g …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

E x c e p t t h e is s u e o f D r a m a t

going there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o w I f e lt o k a y i t i s fi n e . I w e n t
and …

Page 170 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t e l l m e a li t tl e b i t a b o u t th e n u m b e r s . Yo u s a y

t h e o n e g r o u p w a s - t h e ir n u m b e r w a s g r e a t e r t h a n t h e o t h e r. W h a t w h a t n u m b e r s a r e w e t a lk i n g a b o u t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I cannot remember out of my

h e a d b u t i t w a s a r o u n d fi v e t o - f iv e to s e v e n . S o m e w h e r e t h e r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d th e C I w e r e o n l y t h r e e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a ll th e C I o n e s s a i d h e c a m e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
10

CHAIRPERSON: All the other ones said we never saw him?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o w I t h e n t o o k t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n
a li t tl e fu r t h e r t o s a y I h a v e t o s p e a k w i t h t h e s p o k e s p e r s o n b e c a u s e
t h e s e C I m e m b e r s a r e s a y i n g th a t t h e y s a w h i m t o g e t h e r w i t h
G e n e r a l D r a m a t b u t w h e n I a p p r o a c h e d h i m I o b t a i n e d a s t a t e m e n t fr o m
h i m . H e s a i d h e n e v e r - t h a t n e v e r h a p p e n e d a n d I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t a
p e r s o n w h o m a t th e t i m e w h e n I i n te r v i e w e d h i m h e w a s fir e d fr o m th e
Hawks.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

H e w a s n o lo n g e r w o r k i n g .

It

w a s a l m o s t a m o n th o r th r e e m o n t h s o r fo u r m o n th s a f te r h e w a s
d is m i s s e d . S o I w a s e x p e c t in g a p e r s o n w h o w o u ld s p i ll th e b e a n s a n d
h e s a id n o . H e g a v e m e i n f o r m a ti o n p e r t a i n i n g t o th e m e e ti n g s th a t h a d
happened between General Dramat and the Zimbabweans but that

Page 171 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
in f o r m a ti o n n e v e r r e la t e d to th e m e e t in g w h ic h - t h e q u e s ti o n a b le
m e e ti n g w h i c h t o o k p l a c e o n 5 N o v e m b e r b e c a u s e h e h i m s e l f jo i n e d th e
H a w k s i n D e c e m b e r n o t in N o v e m b e r.
S o i t m e a n s t h a t i t w a s a n o t h e r m e e ti n g n o t t h e q u e s t io n a b l e
o n e w h ic h I w a s i n v e s t ig a t in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e N o v e m b e r a n d D e c e m b e r th a t y o u a r e

r e fe r r i n g t o a r e f o r w h ic h y e a r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

H m I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r, I ju s t

n e e d t o c h e c k b u t i f i t is n o t 2 0 1 0 i t is 2 0 11 s o m e w h e r e t h e r e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ja.

N o w y o u s a y th a t a k e y w i t n e s s i n th e

in v e s t i g a t io n w a s C o l o n e l M a d i lo n g a , c a n y o u j u s t e x p l a i n w h y h e w a s a
k e y w i t n e s s a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d w it h h is s t a te m e n t ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h e k e y w i t n e s s M r – C o lo n e l

M a d i l o n g a u n f o r t u n a t e ly h e i s la t e n o w, h e d e p o s e d a s ta t e m e n t a n d i n
t h a t s t a te m e n t h e w a s th e fir s t p e r s o n b e f o r e t h e C I m e m b e r s t o
i m p l ic a t e G e n e r a l D r a m a t .

H e s a i d h e r e c e i v e d a c a ll fr o m M a l u le k e ,

h e l a i d t h e w h o l e b a c k g r o u n d in t e r m s o f w h e r e i t s t a r te d , b u t h e s a i d
20

o n e d a y w h i le h e w a s w o r k i n g a t t h e b o r d e r h e s a w th e – s o m e v e h ic l e
t h a t s e e m e d t o b e v e h ic l e s o f d ip lo m a t s a n d t h e n h e w e n t t h e r e a n d h e
w a s t o l d th e s e a r e Zi m b a b w e a n p o l ic e a n d th e y a r e lo o k i n g to e n t e r th e
c o u n tr y i n o r d e r t o s e e G e n e r a l D r a m a t , s o i n h is s t a t e m e n t h e s a id h e
c a l l e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t b u t f ir s tl y b e fo r e h e c a ll e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t h e
s p o k e w i t h h is s u p e r io r s to g e t p e r m is s io n a n d t h e s u p e r io r s t o l d h i m

Page 172 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
t h a t th e y d i d n o t k n o w o f a n y t h i n g t h a t h e n e e d s t o a ll G e n e r a l D r a m a t
himself.
S o h e c a l le d G e n e r a l D r a m a t , D r a m a t a ll o w e d h i m to a l lo w
them in.
N o w w h e n I in t e r v i e w e d h i m w h e n I w a s o b t a in in g th is , h is
s t a te m e n t , I h a d a fi l e t h a t I r e q u e s t e d fr o m G e n e r a l D r a m a t , t h e fi le
w a s fo r i n te r n a l i n v e s ti g a t i o n b e c a u s e w h e n t h i s i s s u e o f i r r e g u l a ti o n
r e l a ti o n c a m e o u t i t s e e m s a s i f h e a p p o i n t e d s o m e o n e t o c o n d u c t
in v e s t i g a t io n , s o in th a t f il e th e r e w a s a s t a te m e n t o f C o l o n e l
10

M a d i l o n g a , C o l o n e l M a d i lo n g a i n h is s ta t e m e n t n e v e r m a d e m e n t io n o f
D r a m a t , n e v e r m a d e m e n ti o n o f t h e c a l l t h a t h e m a d e a n d n e v e r m a d e
m e n ti o n t h a t h e a s s i s t e d C a p t a i n M a l u l e k e t o le t th e Z i m b a b w e a n
P o lic e p a s s t o g e th e r w it h t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e a r r e s t e d , w h o w e r e
d e p o r t e d ill e g a l ly.
N o w I q u e s ti o n e d h i m , b u t u n fo r t u n a t e l y t h a t s ta t e m e n t w a s
s ig n e d b y h i m b u t w a s n o t c o m m i s s io n e d . H e a g r e e d t h a t i t i s h is o w n
s t a te m e n t , b u t h e s a i d t h a t s t a t e m e n t w a s n o t c o m m i s s i o n e d s o I
c a n n o t r e a ll y c h a r g e h i m f o r p e r j u r y a n d I a s k e d h i m w h y d i d y o u p u t
t h is in f o r m a t io n , h e s a i d h e w a s fo r c e d t o p u t in f o r m a ti o n .

20

N o w w h a t m a d e m e n o t t o b e li e v e w h a t h e w a s s a y i n g w a s th a t
if t h e n I fo r c e s o m e b o d y t o m a k e a s t a te m e n t a n d h e m a k e s a
s t a te m e n t th e fir s t t h i n g t h a t I d o is to r u n to th e p o lic e s t a ti o n a n d g e t
t h e s t a te m e n t c o m m is s i o n e d .

I f t h e n i n a n y h o w th e y r e a l ly w a n te d

h i m t o l ie w h y d id t h e y n o t c o m m i s s io n t h e s ta t e m e n t, b e c a u s e t h e y
h a v e b o u n d h i m f o r e v e r.

Page 173 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o w h i c h s t a te m e n t w a s c o m m is s i o n e d ?

MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h e s ta t e m e n t w h ic h w a s

c o m m i s s io n e d w a s t h e o n e t h a t I t o o k w i t h h i m . T h e n t h e r e w e r e a l o t
o f t h i n g s t h a t r e a l ly h a p p e n e d , l ik e t h e l e a k a g e o f i n fo r m a t i o n a n d I
s t a r t e d t o w o r r y, I s t a r te d t o h a v e a p r o b l e m w i t h th e c r e d i b il it y o f
M a d i l o n g a a s a w it n e s s .

I t h e n t o o k h is s t a te m e n t f o r a n a l y s is , th a t

w a s I t h i n k i t w a s o n th e 4 t h o f O c t o b e r i f I a m n o t m is ta k e n , 2 0 1 3 , a n d
I r e q u e s t e d , t h e r e w a s a n o th e r p e r s o n w h o s p o k e t o m e a n d s a id I k n o w
h o w t o a n a ly s e s t a te m e n t , I s tu d ie d i n t h e U S A o r o v e r s e a s , th e n I
10

in d i c a t e d t o t h is p e r s o n I s a i d c a n y o u d o it f o r m e f o r fr e e , y o u k n o w I
t h i n k y o u a r e j u s t r e a l ly a h a n d fr o m G o d , I w a n t t o g e t t h i s i n f o r m a ti o n
r ig h t .
T h e n s h e to o k th a t s ta t e m e n t , s h e a n a ly s e d it a n d g a v e m e t h e
r e p o r t , s o r r y s h e g a v e m e o u tc o m e , t h e r e p o r t w a s n o t t h e r e , I s a w s h e
in d i c a t e d h o w s h e a n a ly s e d t h e s ta t e m e n t a n d s h e s a y s h e r e a n d t h e r e
a n d th e r e a n d th e r e C o lo n e l M a d il o n g a w a s ly i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s a t t h a t s ta g e w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t
it w a s t h a t G e n e r a l S ib iy a a n d G e n e r a l D r a m a t w e r e s u s p e c te d o f
h a v i n g d o n e t h a t w a s i ll e g a l?

20

MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

Th e y – I h e a r d s o m a n y a t i m e s

e v e n w i t h m y c o n s u lt a ti o n w it h A d v o c a t e M o s i n g , t h a t th e y g a v e th a t
o p e r a ti o n a b l e s s i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t t h e t h in g G e n e r a l

D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S i b i y a w e r e a ll e g e d t o h a v e d o n e th a t w a s il l e g a l ,
w a s to g i v e t h e o p e r a ti o n a b l e s s i n g ?

Page 174 of 182

B e c a u s e I a m t r y in g t o

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
u n d e r s t a n d e x a c tl y w h a t i t is , w h a t u n la w f u l c o n d u c t o r c r i m i n a l c o n d u c t
was

a ll e g e d

against

th e m ,

in

this

so-called

r e n d i ti o n ,

because

e v e r y b o d y w a s s a y in g r e n d i ti o n , r e n d it i o n , r e n d i ti o n , w h a t e x a c tl y w a s
it t h a t th e y w e r e s a id t o h a v e d o n e w h ic h w a s s a i d t o h a v e b e e n
u n l a w f u l o r i ll e g a l o r c r i m i n a l .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
v e r y s h o r t e x p la n a ti o n .

I t h i n k t h a t h a s a li t tl e b i t o f a

F ir s t o n t h e b a s is th a t t h e p e r s o n w h o

a s s is t e d t h e Zi m b a b w e a n P o l ic e , C a p ta in M a lu l e k e , w a s r e s i d i n g w i th in
the DPCI.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e H a w k s ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

The Hawks.

General Dramat

was the Head.
CHAIRPERSON: Was the Head, yes.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

A n d t h e o p e r a t io n t o o k p l a c e i n

G a u t e n g w h e r e S i b iy a w a s r e s p o n s ib le a s t h e P r o v i n c ia l H e a d o f t h e
Hawks.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t w a s t h e i ll e g a l a c t a s y o u u n d e r s to o d i t , y o u
w e r e t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s a s k e d t o i n v e s ti g a te I t a k e i t s o m e t h i n g
ill e g a l th a t th e y h a d a l le g e d ly d o n e .
20

MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h e r e w a s n o t h in g w e c o u ld

r e a l ly s a y th is i s il le g a l a n d w e h a d d i s c u s s io n s , a l o t o f d is c u s s i o n s
w i t h C o lo n e l M a k a n g w e a n d A d v o c a te M o s in g a n d w h a t I w a s t o l d q u it e
o ft e n is t h a t M r K h u b a y o u d o n o t e x p e c t a p e r s o n o f D r a m a t ’s r a n k o f
S i b iy a ’s r a n k to b e i n v o lv e d i n th a t l e v e l t h a t y o u e x p e c t . T h e y c o u l d
o n ly ti e th e m b e c a u s e t h e y s a i d h o w c o u l d th is h a p p e n w h i le t h e y w e r e

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 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
there.

T h a t is w h y w h e n I g o t t h e s t a te m e n t o f M a d i lo n g a w h ic h

in d i c a t e d t h a t h e m a d e a c a l l to G e n e r a l D r a m a t t o r e q u e s t t h e
p e r m is s io n w h e t h e r h e c o u ld a ll o w th e Zi m b a b w e a n P o lic e t o e n t e r.
W h e n I s e n t t h a t s ta t e m e n t t o A d v o c a te M o s i n g a n d t o C o lo n e l
M a k a n g w e i t w a s l ik e a C h r is t m a s , t h e y w e r e v e r y h a p p y, b e c a u s e n o w
y o u h a v e th e n a m e t h a t i t is l i n k e d , b u t it is n o t l in k e d to t h e r e n d i ti o n ,
it is l in k e d to t h e p o l ic e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , th a t is w h a t I a m tr y i n g to u n d e r s t a n d , w a s i t

a l le g e d t h a t t h e y w e r e c o m p l ic it in t h e m u r d e r o f s o m e o f t h o s e
10

Zi m b a b w e a n s , w a s it a ll e g e d t h a t t h e y w e r e c o m p l ic i t i n g e t ti n g th e
Zi m b a b w e a n s h a n d e d o v e r t o th e Z i m b a b w e a n P o l ic e a n d t h a t h a n d i n g
o v e r w a s il le g a l , w a s i t a l le g e d t h a t th e y w e r e c o m p l ic it i n p e r m is s io n
b e i n g g r a n t e d to t h e Zi m b a b w e a n P o li c e t o e n t e r t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n
b o r d e r s , a n d t h a t e n tr y b y t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n – Zi m b a b w e a n P o li c e w a s
ill e g a l . W h a t e x a c t ly w a s s a id t o b e il l e g a l th a t th e y h a d d o n e , o r w a s
said to be a crime?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h e y s a id t h e y w e r e c o m p lic i t i n

a l lo w in g o r i n a ll o w i n g o r a s s is ti n g Z i m b a b w e a n N a ti o n a l t o g e t t h e
p e o p l e t h e y w a n te d a n d le a v e t h e c o u n tr y w it h o u t fo ll o w i n g t h e
20

e x tr a d i ti o n p r o c e s s .

T h e n t h e r e is a n is s u e o f – a n d th is a r i s e s f r o m a

n u m b e r o f i s s u e s ; n u m b e r o n e , th e r e w e r e s u c c e s s r e p o r ts , t h e s e
s u c c e s s r e p o r ts w e r e w r i t te n b y M a lu l e k e a n d t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e
s ig n e d b y a p e r s o n w h o w a s M a lu l e k e ’s s u p e r i o r, Ve r s t e r, I t h i n k s h e
w a s a f u l l c o lo n e l b e c a u s e M a l u l e k e w a s a L t C o lo n e l o r a C a p t a i n ,
b e c a u s e a f t e r t h a t I th i n k h e b e c a m e a L t C o l o n e l a n d h e l e f t a s a L t

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 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
C o l o n e l.
N o w t h o s e s u c c e s s r e p o r ts w h ic h I g o t fr o m t h e H a w k s o ff ic e s
in d i c a t e d t h a t w e m a n a g e d t o a r r e s t th e Z i m b a b w e a n N a t io n a ls w h o
w e r e w a n t e d i n c o n n e c t io n w i th s o m e t h i n g t h a t to o k p l a c e i n Z i m b a b w e ,
a r i s i n g f r o m t h e m e e ti n g t h a t t h e y h a d w i t h G e n e r a l D r a m a t o n t h i s
p a r t ic u l a r d a y. I t h i n k th a t i s w h e r e t h e y w e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

So as you understood, as you understood it the

c o n d u c t o n t h e p a r t o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l Si b iy a t h a t w a s
a l le g e d t o h a v e b e e n u n la w fu l o r ill e g a l o r c r i m in a l w a s t h a t t h e y h a d
10

b e e n p a r ty t o a r r a n g e m e n ts f o r th e s e Zi m b a b w e a n s t o b e h a n d e d o v e r,
t o l e a v e t h e c o u n t r y w i t h o u t f o ll o w i n g e x tr a d i ti o n p r o c e d u r e s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a n d a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d it i f t h a t – i f t h e r e w a s
e v i d e n c e f o r t h a t , th a t w o u l d b e a c r i m e ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h a t i s n o t w h a t I u n d e r s to o d

fr o m t h e b e g in n in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t i s w h a t I w a s m a d e to

understand.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

O n t h e b a s is t h a t t h e r e w e r e

ti m e s w h e n I w o u l d r a is e t h e s e is s u e s , w h e n w e w e r e d i s c u s s in g t h is
c a s e , b u t f o r m e a s a n in v e s t i g a t o r w h e n t h e r e is a p r o s e c u t o r g u id in g
t h e c a s e y o u k i n d o f r e a ll y, I l o o k e d a t a c a s e fr o m t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n
p o i n t o f v i e w a n d th e p r o s e c u to r l o o k e d a t t h e c a s e fr o m t h e

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 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
p r o s e c u t i o n p o i n t o f v ie w, s o I t h o u g h t t h a t it w a s p r o b a b ly b e c a u s e h e
w a s t h e o n e , I t h o u g h t h e w a s t h e o n e w h o w a s g o i n g t o p r o s e c u te t h e
c a s e , h e s a i d i t m e a n s th a t h e i s g o i n g to p u t it o u t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Who are you referring to now when you say

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
CHAIRPERSON:

Advocate Mosing.

Ye s , b u t o f c o u r s e

when you

were

asked

to

in v e s t i g a t e a c r i m e w h e t h e r s o m e b o d y h a s b e e n i n v o lv e d i n a c r i m e ,
s u r e l y y o u h a v e t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t c r i m e i s b e i n g a l l e g e d is n ’ t it ?
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
CHAIRPERSON:

Because

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

o t h e r w is e

you

could

be

expected

to

in v e s t i g a t e t h e c r i m e o f m u r d e r a n d y e t y o u a r e i n v e s t ig a ti n g th e c r i m e
of theft.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s ,

so

it

is

T h a t is c o r r e c t .
important

that

th e

in v e s ti g a t o r

u n d e r s t a n d s w h a t t h e c r i m e is th a t h e is i n v e s t ig a ti n g .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

B u t y o u s a y a t t h e b e g i n n in g y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g

w a s n ’ t t h a t w h a t th e tw o w e r e a l le g e d t o h a v e d o n e th a t w a s a l l e g e d t o
20

b e i ll e g a l o r c r i m i n a l , i t w a s n o t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t i t w a s t h a t
t h e y h a d a s s i s te d i n h a n d i n g o v e r t h e Zi m b a b w e a n s a n d to a s s is t t h e
Zi m b a b w e a n p o li c e t o g e t th e m a n d g o a w a y w i t h t h e m , t h a t w a s n ’ t y o u r
u n d e r s t a n d in g i n it i a l ly, is t h a t r ig h t o r a m I c o n f u s i n g y o u ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

L e t m e c la r i fy.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 178 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:
d i ff e r e n t s ta g e s o f a c q u ir i n g e v i d e n c e .
was not even

I t h i n k w e n e e d to d i ffe r e n ti a t e
Now from the beginning there

a m e n ti o n o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t , i t c a m e

up

fr o m

M a d i l o n g a ’s s t a te m e n ts , t h e n y o u c a m e t o t h e is s u e , t h e n y o u c o m e t o
t h e i s s u e o f t h e s u c c e s s r e p o r ts , t h e n y o u c o m e t o t h e s ta t e m e n t o f C I
members.
N o w a t a t i m e w h e n I a c q u ir e d th is e v i d e n c e n u m b e r o n e t h e
s t a te m e n t o f M a d i lo n g a I f e lt t h a t i t w a s n o t s u ff ic ie n t to p u t h is n a m e
t h e r e , a n d to s a y th a t h e i s – h e r e a l ly p a r ti c i p a t e d , b u t w e h a d a
10

d is c u s s io n to s a y th a t i f t h e n w e a r e c h a r g i n g M a n u l e k a fo r k i d n a p p i n g
a n d t h e r e is t h is o t h e r e v id e n c e t h a t s h o w s t h a t w h e n t h e s e p e o p l e
w e r e a r r e s t e d a n d t h e n h e w e n t t h e r e f r o m h o u s e n u m b e r t h r e e to
h o u s e n u m b e r o n e , c o n g r a t u la t e d t h e p e o p l e a n d s a y s y o u d i d a g o o d
jo b .
M y m a in c o n c e r n i s th a t i f h e w a s r u n n i n g t h a t o p e r a t i o n h e
w a s t h e o n e o v e r s e e i n g t h a t o p e r a t io n , h e w o u l d h a v e c h e c k e d t h e
p r o c e s s th a t t h e y a r e a b le t o f o l lo w fr o m t h a t o n w a r d s , a n d t h e r e i s a n
is s u e o f w h e n w e t a l k a b o u t t h e r u l e th a t G e n e r a l S ib iy a p l a y e d , w i t h
General Sibiya there were witnesses who were saying that they saw

20

h i m a t t h e s c e n e a n d h e a ls o k ic k e d o n e o f t h e v ic ti m s , s o o n t h a t w h e n
w e h a d a d i s c u s s io n I k n e w w h a t i s n e e d e d in o r d e r t o p r o v e t h e c a s e ,
in t e r m s o f s a y in g t h a t D r a m a t p r o b a b ly c a n b e p r o s e c u te d f o r t h i s b u t
is th e r e a n y d i s c r e ti o n t h a t w e h a d . W h e n I w a s t o l d th a t th e s e p e o p l e
a r e G e n e r a l D r a m a t , G e n e r a l S i b iy a t h e y h a v e b e e n a n a c c o m p li s h t o
t h is t h in g , b e c a u s e y o u s e e t h e m e e ti n g w h ic h w a s h e l d , y o u s e e th e

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 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
c a l l w h i c h w a s m a d e a n d a ls o th e s ta t e m e n ts o f C I m e m b e r s s a y in g
t h a t h e c a m e fr o m n u m b e r o n e a n d c o n g r a t u l a te d th e m f o r w e ll d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t g o i n g b a c k t o m y e a r l i e r q u e s ti o n w a s y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g a t th e b e g i n n i n g w h e n y o u w e r e a s k e d t o i n v e s ti g a t e th is
m a t t e r, w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t y o u w e r e i n v e s t ig a ti n g th e p o s s ib le
c o m m i s s io n o f th e c r i m e o f k i d n a p p i n g o r w h a t t i m e d i d y o u u n d e r s ta n d
t h a t y o u w e r e b e in g a s k e d t o i n v e s ti g a te , f r o m t h e b e g i n n in g ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

F r o m th e b e g i n n i n g I w a s to l d

t h a t w e – I w a s s u p p o s e d to in v e s ti g a t e k i d n a p p i n g , I w a s t o l d t o
10

in v e s t i g a t e t h e r e w a s t h e f t , I w a s to l d t o i n v e s ti g a te a s s a u l t a n d
p o s s i b le d e f e a ti n g t h e e n d s o f ju s t ic e ,
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, s o i t w a s a n u m b e r o f c r i m e s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
CHAIRPERSON:

It w a s a n u m b e r o f c r i m e s y e s .

O k a y, a lr i g h t , o k a y, b u t b a s e d o n t h a t it s e e m s t h a t

t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g – th e r e w a s n o c r i m e th a t y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o
in v e s t i g a t e w h i c h w o u l d – w h ic h w a s s a i d t o a r i s e fr o m a b r e a c h o f a n y
e x tr a d i ti o n p r o c e d u r e s , i t w a s a s s a u lt i n g , i t w a s k i d n a p p i n g , i t w a s
w h a t e v e r e ls e b u t fr o m w h a t y o u s a id i t lo o k s li k e t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g
a b o u t s o a n d s o d i d t h is in b r e a c h o f t h e la w r e la t in g t o e x tr a d i t io n
20

procedures.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A n d t h e n , b u t d i d y o u s a y l a te r o n y o u w e r e

e i t h e r to ld o r y o u f o r m e d th e v i e w t h a t p a r t o f w h a t y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d
t o b e i n v e s t ig a t in g o r p a r t o f w h a t y o u s h o u ld i n v e s t ig a t e is w h e t h e r
G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S i b iy a w e r e c o m p lic i t i n a s s i s t i n g t h e

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 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
departure

fr o m

South Africa

of

th e

Zi m b a b w e a n s

in

breach

of

e x tr a d i ti o n p r o c e d u r e s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

O k a y a n d a b o u t h o w l o n g a f te r y o u h a d s t a r t e d w a s

t h a t w h e n y o u g o t to u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h a t is p a r t o f w h a t y o u a r e
s u p p o s e d to lo o k a t?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I t w a s w h e n I s ta r t e d to – a f te r I

g o t t h e s t a t e m e n t o f M a d il o n g a a n d a c q u i r in g o f s u c c e s s r e p o r t s f r o m
DPCI.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d t h a t a r e y o u a b l e to l o c a t e t h a t i n t e r m s o f

ti m e li n e s , ti m e fr a m e s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I can say 2013.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, 2013?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y th a n k y o u . O h I d i d n o t r e a l is e w e h a v e g o n e

p a s t f iv e o ’c l o c k , w e w il l h a v e t o s t o p n o w f o r t o d a y. W e a r e g o in g to
c o n ti n u e t o m o r r o w, b u t w e w i ll n o t s ta r t a t t e n o ’ c l o c k , w e w i ll n o t s t a r t
a t h a l f p a s t n in e , w h a t w il l h a p p e n is t h a t a t e l e v e n o ’c lo c k I w il l s ta r t
w i t h a n a p p lic a ti o n t h a t w a s a d j o u r n e d w h ic h s h o u ld n o t t a k e l o n g a t
20

a l l, m a y b e i t m ig h t t a k e 3 0 m i n u t e s a n d a s s o o n a s w e a r e d o n e w it h
t h a t w e w il l t h e n c o n t in u e w i th y o u .

So you must please come back

t o m o r r o w.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

O k a y, M s W e n t z e l y o u h e a r d w h a t I s a i d a b o u t th e

a p p lic a ti o n ?

Page 181 of 182

 25 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 170
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I e a r l ie r o n a s k e d t h a t Mr P e t e r s e n b e a s k e d t o

in f o r m a ll c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e c h a n g e i n t e r m s o f t i m e , a n d I
understand he got that message.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

O k a y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , w e w i ll a d j o u r n f o r t h e d a y a n d t h e n t o m o r r o w w e
w i ll s t a r t a t e l e v e n o ’c l o c k .
REGISTRAR:

We adjourn.

A ll r is e .

I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 6 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9
10

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