1 2 3 HOUSE PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE, 4 U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 5 WASHINGTON, D.C. 6 7 8 9 INTERVIEW OF: SIMONA MANGIANTE 10 11 12 13 Wednesday, July 18, 2018 14 15 Washington, D.C. 16 17 18 19 20 The interview in the above matter was held at 234 21 Cannon House Office Building, commencing at 11:40 a.m. 22 2 1 Appearances: 2 3 HOUSE PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE 4 5 DENNY HECK, MEMBER 6 NANCY PELOSI, MEMBER 7 ADAM SCHIFF, MEMBER 8 ERIC SWALWELL, MEMBER 9 10 STAFF 11 , COUNSEL 12 , COUNSEL 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 3 P R O C E E D I N G S 1 2 MR. SCHIFF: Madam Leader? 3 MS. PELOSI: Well, thank you very much. And 4 Mr. Schiff, our ranking members, and to our member and 5 our members of the committee, welcome to this 6 interview. 7 interview, but the Republican majority has refused to 8 hear a number of witnesses in your case, in terms of 9 Maria Butina, somebody who could have had a valuable 10 I am sorry that this isn't a bipartisan contribution. What the purpose of this is is to seek the 11 12 truth. So we welcome your testimony. 13 have to be involved at this level as an ex officio 14 member is because the Republicans would not do it 15 officially. 16 Democrats. So we are doing it officially, as So welcome, and thank you for being here. 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 18 MR. SCHIFF: 19 Thank you very much. Thank you, Madam Leader, and thank you -- Mangiante? 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. SCHIFF: 22 The reason I Mangiante. Thank you, Ms. Mangiante, for your willingness to come and testify today. 4 This is a transcribed interview of Ms. Simona 1 2 Mangiante as part of our ongoing congressional 3 investigation into Russia's interference in the 2016 4 U.S. election. 5 is also an ex officio member of the House Permanent 6 Select Committee on Intelligence, is hosting today's 7 interview. Before we begin I just want to say a few 8 9 House Democrat Leader Nancy Pelosi, who things for the record. Questioning today will be 10 conducted by Members and staff. Some questions may 11 seem basic, but that is because we need to clarify and 12 establish certain facts and understand the situation. Please don't assume that we know any fac ts 13 14 that you have not previously disclosed as part of -- or 15 that you may have discussed with other investigative 16 bodies. 17 with things that have come to your attention. 18 So I wouldn't presume that we are familiar This interview will be conducted in a clo sed 19 format at the unclassified level. 20 today's testimony will be considered private. 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 MR. SCHIFF: The contents of Okay. And we can discuss thereafter 5 1 with you your testimony. We can share with you a 2 transcript to make sure that it accurately reflects 3 what you had to say. 4 take a break, let us know. 5 let us know. And if at any time you need to 6 MS. MANGIANTE: 7 MR. SCHIFF: If we can get you anything, Okay. We ask that you give complete 8 replies to questions based on your best recollection. 9 If a question is unclear or you are uncertain in your 10 response, please let us know. 11 any translation or language issues, definitely let us 12 know. 13 14 15 16 17 Especially if there are You are entitled to have counsel present for you during the interview. We appreciate your accommodation by traveling here to Washington, D.C. for the interview. And let me see if there is anything else. 18 There is a reporter making a record of these 19 proceedings so that we can easily consult a written 20 compilation of your answers. 21 cannot record gestures we ask that you answer all 22 questions verbally. Because the reporter If you forget to do this, you may 6 1 be reminded occasionally. We also ask -- we may also ask you to repeat 2 3 certain answers to ensure that we have an accurate 4 record of today's testimony. No recording devices are otherwise permitted. 5 6 You don't have any recording devices with you, I 7 assume? MS. MANGIANTE: 8 9 10 are not active. I have my phones, but they So I can just switch them off, if you prefer. MR. SCHIFF: 11 All right. And we will probably 12 go through the various members. We will try to keep 13 this in a chronological order for simplicity. 14 members may have to come and go because of hearings and 15 other commitments on the Hill. 16 by -- But Please don't be put off 17 MS. MANGIANTE: Okay. 18 MR. SCHIFF: 19 I should mention also under U.S. law it is -- those interruptions. 20 unlawful to deliberately provide false information to 21 Members of Congress or staff. 22 Lastly, again, I want to mention our 7 1 appreciation for your willingness to voluntarily be 2 with us and testify today. And with that, we will begin our questioning 3 4 and then we will -MS. PELOSI: 5 6 Thank you again for coming. Thank you, Mr. Ranking Member, and thank you, 7 8 I will excuse myself. members. Thank you to our recorder, as well. 9 MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Madam Leader. 10 MS. PELOSI: Thank you. 11 MR. SCHIFF: I just want to -- this one I am 12 going to defer for the beginning of our questioning to 13 Mr. Swalwell of California. MR. SWALWELL: 14 15 Mangiante. 16 Papadopoulos? Thank you again, Ms. Do you go by Ms. Mangiante, or is it Ms. 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 18 because of recently -- yes, both -- 19 MR. SWALWELL: 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. SWALWELL: 22 name? I keep my name, Mangiante, Okay. Do you intend -- But Mangiante is fine. Do you intend to change your 8 1 MS. MANGIANTE: 2 MR. SWALWELL: 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 MR. SWALWELL: 5 MS. MANGIANTE: 6 MR. SWALWELL: 7 MS. MANGIANTE: 9 MR. SWALWELL: 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. SWALWELL: I think I will add -And --- eventually. Is your husband aware that you Yes. He is? And where is he today? He is in Chicago. And did you discuss at all your testimony in advance with your husband? 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SWALWELL: 15 Okay. are testifying today? 8 12 No. Yes, very generally. Okay. And what do you mean by very generally? MS. MANGIANTE: 16 We were discussing about 17 attendance, we were simply -- something without talking 18 about it, of course. 19 event. 20 that is not, of course, about the -- I can't discuss 21 the content or whatever, because I don't know what is 22 going to be discussed today. I mean it is not an ordinary So we were generally talking about it. And 9 MR. SWALWELL: 1 2 husband's lawyer? 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 MR. SWALWELL: 5 MS. MANGIANTE: 7 MR. SWALWELL: 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 9 MR. SWALWELL: MS. MANGIANTE: MR. SWALWELL: 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 15 MR. SWALWELL: MS. MANGIANTE: 18 MR. SWALWELL: 20 Crane? Breen, I think so. Breen. Is he Washington - No, it is a -- based in It was based in Chicago? Mm-hmm. Okay. And so you've never discussed -- 17 19 Thomas Breen. Chicago. 13 16 Who is your husband's lawyer based, or -- 11 12 No. now? 6 10 Did you talk at all with your With the lawyer? No. -- the facts of this case with his lawyer? MS. MANGIANTE: No, I discussed with the -- 21 George, yes, but not with his lawyers. I don't know if 22 he discussed with his lawyers, but his lawyers are -- I 10 1 2 don't have a good relation with his lawyer. MR. SWALWELL: Did you rely on any notes, or 3 go back through any emails, text messages, or any type 4 of written correspondence, just to refresh your memory 5 to prepare for today? 6 MS. MANGIANTE: Yes. I mean I think most of 7 the work I have done is -- in my opinion, is the one 8 concerning my work at London Centre, so that is only -- 9 memories I tried to recollect. 10 11 MR. SWALWELL: correspondence did that include? 12 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 MR. SWALWELL: 14 With Professor Mifsud. And was that through text messages -- 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SWALWELL: 17 And what types of No, email. Email? All right. And what was the email provider that you were using at the time? 18 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 MR. SWALWELL: 20 MS. MANGIANTE: I think a Gmail. A Gmail account? Yes, unless -- actually, I 21 didn't have much correspondence directly. But there is 22 this specific email in which I resigned from the London 11 1 Centre in which I say that I didn't want my name 2 associated to them any more. MR. SWALWELL: 3 4 And were you using at the time an email address from the Centre, or -MS. MANGIANTE: 5 Yes, I used to, but I don't 6 know why -- that is why -- emails on my private 7 account, and one of them -- I don't have -- this 8 account has been deleted, so -MR. SWALWELL: 9 MS. MANGIANTE: 10 11 The Centre's account? The Centre's account, of course, yes. MR. SWALWELL: 12 Okay. And do you still use 13 today the same Gmail account that you were using at the 14 time? 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SWALWELL: 17 Yes. Okay. And what is that Gmail address? 18 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 MR. SWALWELL: And in addition to emails that 20 you had with the professor, did you ever Gchat with the 21 professor? 22 MS. MANGIANTE: No. 12 MR. SWALWELL: 1 2 Did you ever use Gchat at all -- 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 MR. SWALWELL: 5 MS. MANGIANTE: 6 Okay. email. No. -- during this time? Uh-uh. There are very few I mean probably three. MR. SWALWELL: 7 Have you been in touch with 8 anyone affiliated with the White House, including the 9 White House's counsel's office, with respect to your 10 testimony today? MS. MANGIANTE: 11 12 Can you please -- 13 MR. SWALWELL: 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 15 MR. SWALWELL: MS. MANGIANTE: 19 MR. SWALWELL: Have you talked to anyone at Absolutely not. Have you talked to anyone, just in general, at the White House? MS. MANGIANTE: 21 22 I don't understand the the White House about your testimony? 18 20 Yes. question. 16 17 What do you mean, exactly? reporters. I have been talking with the I don't know if they were affiliated with 13 1 the White House or not. I don't know if my answer is 2 correct in this extent. But I don't know if they were 3 reporters from the White House or a random request from 4 Twitter, so -MR. SWALWELL: 5 I meant people who work for 6 the administration, not the -- there is the press, and 7 they cover and report on the administration, and then 8 there is folks that work inside the administration. 9 Have you talked to anyone who has worked -- 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. SWALWELL: 12 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 MR. SWALWELL: Inside the administration? Yes. As far as I know, no. Have you been in touch with 14 anyone affiliated with the Trump campaign about your 15 testimony? 16 17 MS. MANGIANTE: affiliated with Trump? 18 MR. SWALWELL: 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SWALWELL: 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 That has worked with Trump, Yes. Journalists -No, excluding journalists. Just give me an example of someone that could be affiliated to the Trump campaign. 14 1 Sorry for the wording -- 2 MR. SWALWELL: 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 5 Yeah. No, so -- I just try to be careful. don't want to be the wrong -MR. SWALWELL: Like a campaign lawyer, 6 someone representing the campaign as a lawyer. 7 you ever worked with anyone -- 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 9 MR. SWALWELL: 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. SWALWELL: 12 Have No, no. -- in that respect? No. How about a campaign aid? Like Brad Parscale is the campaign manager. 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SWALWELL: 15 I I didn't talk with anyone. Okay. How about, like, an informal advisor to the campaign? 16 MS. MANGIANTE: 17 MR. SWALWELL: No, no. If you wanted to get a hold of 18 someone in the Trump campaign, who is the person you 19 know that knows someone in the campaign? 20 than George? 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 MR. SWALWELL: Like, other Nobody. Nobody. So the only person 15 1 you know associated with the campaign, it is safe to 2 say, is George? MS. MANGIANTE: 3 That I know personally, yes, 4 and another being communicating with anyone else about 5 probably public Twitter exchange with Michael Caputo. 6 That is all -MR. SWALWELL: 7 8 When did you have the Twitter exchange with Mr. Caputo? MS. MANGIANTE: 9 Public, never private 10 exchange. 11 when he apologized for calling George a coffee boy. 12 And I just answered, "Thank you." 13 14 I don't know him. MR. SWALWELL: Probably a month ago, Were there any direct messages that were -- 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SWALWELL: 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 18 MR. SWALWELL: 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SWALWELL: 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 MR. SWALWELL: No. -- not open -Never. Okay. Where were you born? Caserta. And where is that? It is in south of Italy. Okay. 16 1 MS. MANGIANTE: 2 MR. SWALWELL: 3 Between Rome and Naples. Did you live there most of your life? MS. MANGIANTE: 4 I have been -- I was raised 5 there, then Rome and Naples. 6 international law in Brussels. 7 the European Parliament for seven years. MR. SWALWELL: 8 9 MS. MANGIANTE: What -- how old were you when I don't remember. I think it was probably my mid-twenties. MR. SWALWELL: 12 13 I have been working for you moved to Brussels? 10 11 Then I study Was that the first time that you had spent any time outside of Italy? MS. MANGIANTE: 14 No, no, I also been in 15 Washington. I was studying international law, so I did 16 an international -- I did an internship in Mayer Brown, 17 a law firm in Washington and New York. 18 MR. SWALWELL: 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 21 22 2007. When was that? 2008 -- no, 2007, I think, So I have been -MR. SWALWELL: that internship? How old were you when you did 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 1 Oh, my gosh. 2 something, like -- I don't know. 3 still. 4 MR. SWALWELL: 5 MS. MANGIANTE: 6 MR. SWALWELL: 7 Like my twenties And then you -But, like, the dates are -And the first year that you moved to Brussels was when? MS. MANGIANTE: 8 9 Twenty- I moved to Brussels -- I went first for an internship, I think, in -- I have to see 10 my CV, but I started work in 2009 until 2016. That is 11 -- I can recollect. 12 six months at European Parliament, as well. 13 probably -- let's say a year before, part of the 14 interchange program now -- I don't recall the exact 15 dates. Earlier I did an internship for But I should see my CV. MR. SWALWELL: 16 So just so I understand, 17 before moving to Brussels the other countries you had 18 worked in -- and I am not talking -MS. MANGIANTE: 19 Work, not. More study and 20 internship. I mean even in Washington and New York it 21 was a short internship with Mayer Brown. 22 junior -- I was a 18 1 2 MR. SWALWELL: Any countries, other than the United States? 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 MR. SWALWELL: 5 MS. MANGIANTE: Yes. Where else? I used to live in London, of 6 course, most recently. 7 Versace in Paris right after my studies one year. 8 Spain, I did my Erasmus project in Europe. 9 exchange program. 10 university. 11 United States. 12 13 And then in Paris, I worked for And so Spain and France, England, the MR. SWALWELL: 15 MR. SWALWELL: 16 MS. MANGIANTE: 17 MR. SWALWELL: 18 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 MR. SWALWELL: 22 Did you ever work in Russia prior to moving to Brussels? MS. MANGIANTE: 21 It is an I think it was my early years at the 14 20 And No. You never -I went once in Russia for -When did you go there? 2015 or '14. Was that the first time you had traveled there? MS. MANGIANTE: Petersburg. First I -- Yes, it was for holiday. St. 19 1 MR. SWALWELL: Could you describe your work 2 in Brussels when you first moved there, started working 3 there for the European Parliament? 4 MS. MANGIANTE: Yes. I was working for the 5 labor committee, which is committee on liberty. 6 say it in French; I don't know in English. 7 justice and home affairs. 8 this committee administrators -- the qualification on 9 my position. 10 I can It is like I was a legal advisor for And then I moved to the presidency office, 11 which is structured with 1 president and 14 vice 12 presidents. 13 and I used to work for the vice president, who was the 14 mediator for cases of international child abduction. 15 ended up managing the office for -- managing those 16 cases, parental child abduction. 17 Every vice president has a specific task, MR. SWALWELL: And did you develop foreign 18 contacts while you were in this position? 19 like you are at the center of the European Union and 20 its Parliament. 21 22 MS. MANGIANTE: Yes, of course. It seems Everything is about international relations and -- I mean I think I 20 1 some kind of work -- mostly from Europe, European 2 member states and all the representatives from member 3 states to the European Union. 4 5 6 MR. SWALWELL: Can you tell us in detail who Professor Mifsud is, and how you met him? MS. MANGIANTE: Well, in detail, 7 unfortunately, I don't know. 8 Professor Mifsud for the first time at the European 9 Parliament through an MEP. 10 11 12 13 But I know that I met I used to work more -- that I know personally. MR. SWALWELL: Is MEP Member of European Parliament? MS. MANGIANTE: He used to be the head of 14 socialist group until probably two months ago. 15 is a Senator in Italy. 16 remember he introduced me to Mifsud. 17 exactly the date in which he introduced me to Mifsud, 18 but it was probably a few years ago. 19 20 Now he His name is Gianni Pittella. I can check on So I knew Mifsud for a few years before I joined the London Centre international practice -- 21 MR. SWALWELL: 22 MS. MANGIANTE: Was it before 2016? Yes, definitely. I 21 1 MR. SWALWELL: 2 MS. MANGIANTE: Okay, was it -I think it was around -- must 3 be around 2011, 2012. 4 recall exactly the date, but definitely before 2016 I 5 met him for the first time, because -- 6 7 8 9 I don't remember -- I don't MR. SWALWELL: introduction? What was the nature of the Like why was he -- MS. MANGIANTE: He was attending an event organized by Mr. Pittella, European Parliament, and I 10 was working for the committee. 11 remember just -- no, really occasional introduction. 12 He was coming with his student. 13 bringing his student to European Parliament to have an 14 experience of the -- know how committee works, 15 political committee works. 16 And in that context I I remember he was And then I -- when my experience at European 17 Parliament was close to the end, I was actually looking 18 for a job in London, and I spoke with Mr. Pittella, who 19 told me, "You should contact Mifsud again, because he 20 is running this London Centre international law 21 practice, which could fit your skills and your 22 competencies. So you might want to contact him," and 22 1 that is how I have been in touch with Mifsud, who 2 offered me a position with Nagi Idris, which is the -- 3 MR. SWALWELL: 4 MS. MANGIANTE: Could you spell that for us? N-a-g-i I-d-r-I-s, Nagi Idris 5 from Sudan, I think, living in London, director of the 6 London Centre international law practice. And just -- Mifsud at the time was the 7 8 director of the London Academy of Diplomacy, which is 9 another body. But he became director of the London 10 Center of International Law Practice probably a month 11 earlier I joined. MR. SWALWELL: 12 So how soon was it after you 13 met Professor Mifsud that you were in talks with him 14 about working for him? MS. MANGIANTE: 15 No. Actually, the reason why 16 I think Gianni Pittella contact him is to tell him my 17 -- this "Simona Mangiante is looking for a job in 18 London. 19 was -- you know, I think he recommended me to Mifsud, 20 and Mifsud then offered me a position. 21 position is very -- 22 Do you have anything to offer to her?" MR. SWALWELL: So it Well, a Just so I am clear, you first 23 1 met -- you were in Brussels when you first had a face - 2 to-face with Professor Mifsud, is that right? 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 MR. SWALWELL: 5 Was there any contact with him prior to being in Brussels? 6 MS. MANGIANTE: 7 MR. SWALWELL: 8 9 call? MS. MANGIANTE: MR. SWALWELL: 11 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 14 No -Like through email or a phone 10 12 Yes. No. So -I met him, and I could not be in touch with him if I didn't know him. MR. SWALWELL: So after meeting him in Brussels, how soon was it that the job offer -- 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SWALWELL: 17 MS. MANGIANTE: No, I --- or negotiation took place? First of all, I mean, I am 18 just -- it is a -- when I met him the first time it was 19 in the context of a political event. 20 intention to leave European Parliament. 21 building up my career there. 22 say, I meet you today. I didn't have any It was So I met him, like, let's Occasion, it is different, but 24 1 I -- in the context of a political event. So I -- as I said, I don't remember exactly 2 3 when I met him. But the reason why I worked with him 4 is because later on, when my contract was close expire 5 with European Parliament, I was looking for a job in 6 London. MR. SWALWELL: 7 And how far -- how long after 8 you first met him did that occur? 9 months after, a year after? MS. MANGIANTE: 10 No. Like, was it six The first time I met him 11 is, as I said, a few years ago. 12 let's say May 2016, I started to look for a job. 13 then, on September 2016 I joined the London Centre. MR. SWALWELL: 14 Then I did -- in 2016, And Did you ever see Professor 15 Mifsud outside of Brussels in between those two periods 16 of time? 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 18 MR. SWALWELL: 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 21 22 In London. In London? Yes, when I started to work for the London Centre. MR. SWALWELL: Did he invite you to London, or did you go there and just -- 25 1 MS. MANGIANTE: 2 MR. SWALWELL: 3 MS. MANGIANTE: No. -- happen to run into him? I did need to go to London to 4 meet with Professor Mifsud. 5 the London Centre, he was there. MR. SWALWELL: 6 When I started to work for Okay. So I guess just to 7 clarify, from the time you saw him in Brussels and the 8 time you started working in London, did you ever see 9 him again, face to face, anywhere? 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. SWALWELL: 12 From the time I -So that first meeting in Brussels, where you were introduced to him by -- 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SWALWELL: 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SWALWELL: 17 MS. MANGIANTE: Yes. -- the MEP -Yes. -- and the time -I met him -- probably I have 18 seen him around the European Parliament in a number of 19 occasions. 20 Definitely it was not -- I have seen him other times, 21 remember also in the context of another conference. 22 All the -- he was attending all the conferences I think it was -- it was my first meeting. 26 1 organized by the -MR. SWALWELL: What was he doing when you 3 were seeing him around? Like what did he represent 4 himself as? 2 MS. MANGIANTE: 5 He was representing himself 6 as an academic, bringing his student. That is -- as I 7 said, my impression of him has never been as an 8 academic. 9 connection in political circles. He looks to me somebody who tried to build And I don't know for 10 which purpose, but definitely not a transparent person, 11 not somebody definitely could be qualified as an 12 academic. 13 level, even in Italy. He has many connection, I know, to high What I know is that -- this must be 14 15 interesting -- he teach also -- he speaks fluent 16 Italian, first of all, is -MR. SWALWELL: 17 18 19 Does he speak any other languages? MS. MANGIANTE: The language I spoke with him 20 is Italian and English, so I don't know if he speaks 21 other languages. 22 also -- I don't know -- He is from Malta, so he might speak 27 MR. SWALWELL: 1 Do you remember anything about 2 the students he would bring around? 3 students were there? 4 from? 6 And do you know where they were MS. MANGIANTE: 5 Like what type of That I can't -- I don't remember, no. As -- I wanted to say that Professor Mifsud 7 8 would teach at the Link Campus in Rome, which basically 9 train -- it is to train -- how could I say -- 10 intelligence officer. 11 you should dig into, his connection with the Link 12 Campus in Rome. MR. SWALWELL: 13 14 15 That is something like I think Who was the intelligence officer? MS. MANGIANTE: They train, let's say, the 16 equivalent of FBI agent for the -- I don't know, it is 17 -- for Italy. 18 has student from everywhere. 19 but I have been invited -- 20 21 22 It is an international campus. MR. SWALWELL: So it I have never been there, What was Professor Mifsud's connection there? MS. MANGIANTE: He is a professor there, and 28 1 this is called by Stephen Roh wife, which is a Russian 2 princess with a lot of money, and I think it is 3 important information to share. Yes, very active role, and Stephen Roh -- I 4 5 don't know if you heard about Stephen Roh -- 6 MR. SWALWELL: 7 MS. MANGIANTE: 8 MR. SWALWELL: 9 MS. MANGIANTE: Can you spell the last name? R-o-h. Okay. He is a Dutch lawyer, a Swiss 10 lawyer, something, married to Russian princess. 11 co-owns this Link Campus, where Professor Mifsud -- 12 MR. SWALWELL: 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 15 16 17 And he You said Link Campus? Link Campus, L-I-–k Campus, Rome. MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And how is that connected to Professor Mifsud? MS. MANGIANTE: Through Olga Roh, which is 18 the wife of Stephen Roh, partner of Mifsud, and friend 19 that co-owned this body -- Professor Mifsud has an 20 important role there. 21 MR. SWALWELL: 22 MS. MANGIANTE: What is his role there? Professor -- I mean he is -- 29 1 I know he was definitely more often at Rome, at Link 2 Campus, than in London. 3 mean I think it is interesting to -MR. SWALWELL: 4 And that is all I know. I Did he -- did Professor Mifsud 5 tell you that he had a connection there, or did you 6 hear that from others? MS. MANGIANTE: 7 No, I forget from others -- 8 no, I -- no, he told me that he had a connection there. 9 He said that he was creating the partnership with 10 London Centre, organizing a trip to Rome with Naga 11 Idris. 12 not coming from Mifsud. 13 14 But information that is co-owned by Olga Roh is MR. SWALWELL: center, the Link center? 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SWALWELL: 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 18 Did you ever visit that No, never. No? I have been invited many times, even to give lessons. 19 MR. SWALWELL: 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. SWALWELL: 22 MS. MANGIANTE: But -- Who invited you? Mifsud. Okay, and -Nagi Idris, too. 30 1 MR. SWALWELL: Did he ever talk about -- 2 considering that a Russian princess was connected to 3 the center, were there Russians studying at the center? 4 MS. MANGIANTE: 5 MR. SWALWELL: 6 7 I don't know. Did he ever talk about Russians studying at the center? MS. MANGIANTE: No. And as I said, my 8 experience, Mifsud was focusing on the Middle East, at 9 least as far as I am concerned. 10 ties to Western intelligence. 11 MR. SWALWELL: 12 MS. MANGIANTE: And yes, and a lot of I mean the -- Mifsud did? -- Link Campus -- yes, 13 definitely. I mean now we know that it was training. 14 At least, I don't know, there is this interesting book 15 wrote by Stephen Roh. 16 this book, self-published, in which he allegedly report 17 the first interview with Mifsud since it has appeared. 18 And it says that, basically, Mifsud trains spies. I don't know the credibility of 19 MR. SWALWELL: 20 MS. MANGIANTE: What type of spies? Western intelligence spies, I 21 think, in Rome. I don't know, probably Italian 22 intelligence, I don't know. I am not one. 31 MR. SWALWELL: 1 Did you -- have you ever heard 2 from -- anything from Mr. Mifsud to make you believe 3 that he was associated with Russian intelligence 4 services? 5 MS. MANGIANTE: 6 MR. SWALWELL: 7 MS. MANGIANTE: No. No? No, the only -- as I said, 8 the only -- definitely he is a very shady figure to me. 9 He makes -- 10 MR. SWALWELL: 11 MS. MANGIANTE: 12 Who is? Is a very shady person, is not a -- 13 MR. SWALWELL: 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 15 MR. SWALWELL: 16 MS. MANGIANTE: Who is? Mifsud. Mifsud. Is a way -- behavior is way 17 too -- his communication is rarely direct and 18 transparent, so I am -- would not be surprised to learn 19 he is a intelligent -- now, I don't know from which 20 country. 21 intelligence, I don't know. 22 -- I mean the fact that he disappeared completely, it Could be Russia, could be Western But definitely it is very 32 1 is very suspicious. MR. SWALWELL: 2 When you were working at the 3 parliament and you had a relationship with Mr. -- 4 Professor Mifsud, did he ever ask you about your work, 5 or what was going on in the parliament, or decisions 6 that were being considered? 7 MS. MANGIANTE: 8 MR. SWALWELL: 9 MS. MANGIANTE: MR. SWALWELL: 10 11 Oh, yeah. He did? Yes. And did he ever ask you to share with him information that was not public? MS. MANGIANTE: 12 Nagi Idris, his partner, 13 definitely. 14 usually to keep contact with European Parliament, we 15 need this report, we need that, we need that -MR. SWALWELL: 16 17 His partner, definitely. He would tell me Can you say the partner's name? 18 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 MR. SWALWELL: 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. SWALWELL: 22 MS. MANGIANTE: Nagi Idris. Can you spell that? N-a-g-i I-d-r-i-s. Nagi Idris? Idris, yes. I think their 33 1 interest in me was because of my political connection 2 in Europe, and being recommended by the head of 3 Socialist group at the time was a big boost for them. 4 And the first day I joined the London Centre they made 5 me director for international diplomatic relation, 6 which is a big title, though I didn't expect such a -MR. SWALWELL: 7 8 9 10 11 female? MS. MANGIANTE: MR. SWALWELL: MS. MANGIANTE: 13 MR. SWALWELL: MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SWALWELL: MS. MANGIANTE: 19 MR. SWALWELL: 21 22 Do you know Mr. Idris's Sudan. Sudan. And who introduced you Mifsud. Okay. And how soon did that occur after you first met Mr. Mifsud? 18 20 Male. to Mr. Idris? 15 17 It is a male. nationality? 12 14 So Idris, is that a male or a I don't remember. Okay. And would you meet with Mr. Idris in person, or would you communicate by email? MS. MANGIANTE: No, I met in person. every day at London Centre. It was It was my direct boss. 34 MR. SWALWELL: 1 2 No, I am talking about the time when you were working for the EU. MS. MANGIANTE: 3 Oh, no. No, no, no. When I 4 was working, I -- all this contact, where the -- the 5 very last month, I mean, I started to have a -- like, 6 let's say connection after I left the EU. 7 first time -- let's say it was around May, June, and 8 then I -- when I left EU on August 2016, then I joined 9 them in London September -- 10 MR. SWALWELL: 11 MS. MANGIANTE: 12 Yes. -- 2016. So there is no overlap between the two -- 13 MR. SWALWELL: 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 15 MR. SWALWELL: 16 No, my question is --- experience --- when you were working for the EU. 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 18 MR. SWALWELL: No, they didn't -- yeah -Did you have a relationship 19 with Mr. Idris? 20 Idris when you were working for the EU? 21 22 I mean the Like, were you in contact with Mr. MS. MANGIANTE: No, just to tell him I am going to leave the EU, so Mifsud had made introduction, 35 1 I will be happy to join London Centre. 2 saying, oh, keep contact with the EU, it is very 3 important, your network, and it will be very helpful. 4 I remember he told me that. MR. SWALWELL: 5 And then he was And what did Mr. Idris say 6 that you believed was asking for non-public 7 information, or seeking for you to take actions that 8 would be non-public that could help inform him? MS. MANGIANTE: 9 I am not sure I can say he 10 was asking me for non-public information. He was 11 simply advising me to keep in touch with my network, 12 just in case. 13 request -- Then it never materialized with any 14 MR. SWALWELL: 15 MS. MANGIANTE: Just in case what? Just in case, I don't know, 16 we might need access. That is -- I just said it is not 17 really real event. 18 confidential information. 19 perception that he was interested in me keeping those 20 contacts and those -- you know, those relation, in case 21 they need having access to any type of draft 22 legislation or whatever from the inside. He never asked me to give him But I had definitely the But he never 36 1 explicitly -- as far as I remember right now, he never 2 asked me directly -MR. SWALWELL: 3 When you worked for the 4 parliament did you have access to confidential 5 information? 6 MS. MANGIANTE: 7 MR. SWALWELL: 8 Did you have to go through a background check to get that access? MS. MANGIANTE: 9 MR. SWALWELL: 10 11 Of course. What do you mean? Like a -- to get a -- to get access to confidential information, did you -MS. MANGIANTE: 12 I was working for the 13 presidency office, of course. 14 responsible, legally, for the -- any information -- I 15 wasn't in -- I will say I did -- had knowledge of. MR. SWALWELL: 16 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 MR. SWALWELL: 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 But did you go through a security clearance before -- 18 21 I mean I would be clearance? Yes, there was --- you were given access? What do you -- security What do you mean? MR. SWALWELL: Like, was your background, 37 1 2 your personal biography, your CV reviewed? MS. MANGIANTE: Well, first of all, we don't 3 access European Parliament by chance. We pass a 4 competition. 5 on my background, based on the competition. 6 there is a system of recruitment, so I suppose that 7 every function -- European Union has to comply with a 8 certain number of requirements, and based on the 9 background and based on the -- I mean I was lawyer, legal advisor, based 10 MR. SWALWELL: 11 MS. MANGIANTE: You know, Sure. -- also the legal commitment 12 you -- everybody has when -- you know, we do sensitive 13 information. 14 MR. SWALWELL: Did anyone ever ask you for 15 you to relay to them access to classified information 16 or confidential information who wasn't entitled to it? 17 Any time that you worked there, were you asked to 18 provide confidential information? 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SWALWELL: 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 MR. SWALWELL: Oh, yeah. And who -Refused completely. But who were some of the 38 1 people? MS. MANGIANTE: 2 Random people. Random 3 people. 4 international -- for cases on international child 5 abduction you would have lawyers, private lawyers 6 contacting the office to ask -- the cases addressed to 7 European Parliament to their private office, which is 8 completely illegal. 9 I remember, while I was working for the And this is -- you know, we were -- of 10 course, when you -- I guess it is something -- it is 11 your duty to protect an institution from those kind of 12 unlawful requests. 13 MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever sense that people 14 were trying to become friends with you or network with 15 you because they wanted access to this confidential 16 information? 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 18 information. 19 politicians. 20 21 22 No, not confidential Probably more to have access to MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And who were some of the nationalities that you recall doing this? MS. MANGIANTE: Oh, Italians, many, because I 39 1 am Italian, so they feel more confident talking to me. 2 Very randomly, I mean -- 3 MR. SWALWELL: Any non-Italians ever ask you, 4 or others seek confidential information or try and get 5 close to you because of your political network? 6 MS. MANGIANTE: 7 MR. SWALWELL: I don't remember. Did you provide to our 8 committee the emails and text message correspondence 9 that you have in your possession covering exchanges 10 with Professor Mifsud and Mr. Idris? 11 MS. MANGIANTE: 12 MR. SWALWELL: 13 MS. MANGIANTE: Yes. Okay. There are not many, but you 14 will read some fiery -- messages I don't have, but a 15 few emails, one addressed to my private account in 16 which I basically -- the last email he sent to me was 17 trying to meet up with me in London when I resigned, 18 because they never paid me, first of all. 19 signed a contract with a salary. 20 And they were completely unprofessional. 21 understood what was their agenda. 22 MR. SWALWELL: They -- I They never paid me. I never Are those documents that you 40 1 already provided to our committee? 2 MS. MANGIANTE: 3 MR. SWALWELL: 4 MS. MANGIANTE: No, I didn't. Okay. Because I recall you asked me 5 for the documents based on -- I mean it was based on 6 which -- I don't consider George a coffee boy, so I 7 selected in this direction. MR. SWALWELL: 8 : 9 10 13 14 15 16 17 There were a couple exchanges with Mr. Mifsud in 2016 that you provided. MS. MANGIANTE: 11 12 Did you -- I did? Okay, sorry, I forgot. MR. SWALWELL: So, you are comfortable providing -MS. MANGIANTE: Maybe they are -- that is all I have, I did -MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Do you mind taking one 18 more look at the end of this interview, just to see if 19 there is anything else? 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. SWALWELL: 22 Yes. Thank you. And did you ever see Mr. Mifsud interact in Brussels with any other 41 1 European Parliament members that were not Mr. Pittella? MS. MANGIANTE: 2 Personally, not. I always 3 met him with Mr. Pittella. 4 political network. 5 he also said to George, that he was introducing to him 6 with his niece, so I don't know the credibility of this 7 person. 9 That is at least what he said. MR. SWALWELL: 8 But I know he had a wide But Did Mr. Mifsud ever interact with Russian government individuals while in Brussels? MS. MANGIANTE: 10 I don't know. In Brussels, 11 it is -- we don't deal with many Russians in Brussels. 12 It is European -MR. SWALWELL: 13 14 Did you ever seen Mr. Mifsud interact with any Russians in Brussels? MS. MANGIANTE: 15 No, never. But I -- what I 16 know is -- was often telling me, "I am coming back from 17 Moscow." MR. SWALWELL: 18 19 20 I don't know what the -Mr. Mifsud would say that to you? MS. MANGIANTE: Yes. One of those emails he 21 says, "I am coming back from Moscow." I don't know 22 what he was doing in Moscow, but I never seen him 42 1 2 3 4 5 6 interacting personally with any Russian. MR. SWALWELL: And did you interact with any Russians while in Brussels? MS. MANGIANTE: Yes. A friend of my friend was Russian, but random people -MR. SWALWELL: And by Russians, I mean any 7 Russian government officials, or anyone suspected to 8 work for the Russian government. 9 MS. MANGIANTE: It is very difficult. You 10 meet so many people, and I don't know if they were 11 working for the Russian government or not. 12 never had close relation with any Russian government 13 official, never. 14 (Pause.) 15 MS. MANGIANTE: But no, I remember, though, in Rome, 16 a Belgium friend of mine a few years ago introduced me 17 to somebody Russian. 18 2015 again. But many years ago, probably in 19 MR. SWALWELL: 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. SWALWELL: 22 MS. MANGIANTE: Was that in Brussels? No, it was in Rome. In Rome? In Rome, yes. I don't really 43 1 remember. 2 government, yes, because they wanted to organize an 3 event, and they approached me. 4 There is actually somebody that approached me to have 5 contacts at European Parliament linked to Russia, but 6 it has nothing to do, I think, with this 7 investigation -MR. SWALWELL: 8 9 Maybe it was somebody working for the I remember this -- yes. So that happened in 2015 in Rome? MS. MANGIANTE: 10 Yeah, I -- I mean I don't 11 want to mess up with dates, because I am very bad with 12 that. 13 want me to check on. I can provide with the specific dates if you But some few years ago, let's say, I was 14 15 introduced to someone. 16 introduced me -- whose wife is Russian and works in 17 Moscow -- introduced me to someone from the Russian 18 government, asking me if I could introduce to them 19 somebody from the European Parliament to organize a 20 meeting. 21 never did anything. 22 A Belgian friend of mine But I never understood what they wanted, so I MR. SWALWELL: Where did this meeting take 44 1 place with you and the -MS. MANGIANTE: 2 It was over a drink in Rome, 3 because this is a very old friend of mine, Belgian, 4 married to this -- moved to Moscow and, you know, that 5 is all. 6 much -- But I know -- I am just trying to be as 7 MR. SWALWELL: 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 9 MR. SWALWELL: 10 11 Sure. -- as accurate as I can. No, it is very helpful to us, thanks. MS. MANGIANTE: Yes, it is -- but there is, 12 of course, no real events, I think, for the 13 investigation. 14 MR. SWALWELL: And the person who you thought 15 might work for the Russian government, was that a male 16 or a female? 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 18 MR. SWALWELL: 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SWALWELL: 21 22 Male. Male? Mm-hmm. And do you remember the name of the individual? MS. MANGIANTE: I can't -- I don't really -- 45 1 something -- oh, my God, no. MR. SWALWELL: 2 3 Did you exchange any contact information -MS. MANGIANTE: 4 No. To the -- my friend, 5 yes. 6 many, and we never follow up. 7 anything. 8 not as a politician, I was a political advisor. 9 was not in the position to do anything. 10 I think my friend -- I don't know. 13 I mean I didn't organize I didn't put forward -- I mean my job was MR. SWALWELL: But people So why didn't you organize the meeting? MS. MANGIANTE: I was not interested. 14 would I be interested? 15 following instruction of my boss. 16 initiative -- 17 So I approach you for any type of reason. 11 12 But it is so Why I was doing my job, I was MR. SWALWELL: I was not taking Did your friend ever follow up 18 with you and see whether progress has been made on you 19 organizing this event? 20 21 22 MS. MANGIANTE: Once, probably twice, and then that is all. MR. SWALWELL: Do you mind seeing if you 46 1 could ask that friend for the name of the Russian -MS. MANGIANTE: 2 3 any more from -- I don't even have his number any more. 4 MR. SWALWELL: 5 MS. MANGIANTE: 6 MR. SWALWELL: 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 10 Okay, and -- But it is really long time Sure. I mean I think I am talking probably about 2014, 2015. I mean I don't think it is -- I mean you are asking me about -- 11 MR. SWALWELL: 12 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 Okay. ago. 7 9 I am not in contact with him Yes. -- Russian officials, so I am just trying to be accurate. MR. SWALWELL: 14 No, that is very helpful for 15 us. 16 situation, where someone is trying to introduce you to 17 someone that may work for the Russian government? 18 And anything else that comes to mind like that MS. MANGIANTE: I don't have -- I mean, as I 19 said, I know a few people who are Russia's friends, 20 and, you know, this person I am not sure was working 21 for the Russian government, but introduce -- this is 22 the only occasion which I remember, I can recollect, 47 1 and that is someone from the Russian government, which 2 is many years ago, I think. MR. SWALWELL: 3 4 Trump wasn't even in. When you worked at the Centre how many employees were there, do you think? 5 MS. MANGIANTE: 6 MR. SWALWELL: 7 MS. MANGIANTE: Where? In the London Centre? At the Centre in London. Oh, my God, this is -- I 8 never understood the structure of this London Centre. 9 It was basically a room like that, with a table like 10 that, people coming with their laptop and sitting 11 casually. 12 professional -- young students. 13 from -- that I met there from Iraq, Middle East, Sudan. 14 I didn't meet any Russian. MR. SWALWELL: 15 16 They would change -- they were mostly young MS. MANGIANTE: 18 MR. SWALWELL: 20 21 22 At the Centre you neve r met a Russian? 17 19 Most of the people was No. Were there any Russian nationals working at the Centre? MS. MANGIANTE: them, I don't know. Probably, but I never met I had been there very shortly. MR. SWALWELL: Were you familiar with any 48 1 travels that Professor Mifsud was taking to Russia 2 while you were working at the center? 3 MS. MANGIANTE: Not -- apart from his email, 4 which he told me, "I am coming back from Moscow," 5 another -- I don't know anything about this trip. 6 MR. SWALWELL: While you were working at the 7 Centre with Professor Mifsud, did he ever talk about 8 meetings he was taking or contacts he had in Russia? 9 MS. MANGIANTE: No. I mean he would say, "I 10 am flying to" -- Mifsud was talking about many things 11 and nothing. 12 connection to the Italian government. 13 be very connected to the Italian government. To me, he was always talking about his 14 MR. SWALWELL: 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SWALWELL: 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 MR. SWALWELL: 21 22 To the Italian government? Yes. How is the Centre financed, do you have any idea who paid for the Centre? 18 20 Mifsud seems to I have no idea. Did you ever have access to, like, the accounting? MS. MANGIANTE: I been there for three months and I left because they didn't pay me. So my -- 49 1 MR. SWALWELL: 2 MS. MANGIANTE: 3 MR. SWALWELL: MS. MANGIANTE: MR. SWALWELL: What was the purpose of that academy? MS. MANGIANTE: 10 11 diplomats. 12 my opinion, of course. 13 something else. 14 Yes, he also -- I went there. He invited me to visit, so I went there. 8 9 Did Professor Mifsud ever discuss the London Academy of Diplomacy? 6 7 -- my experience is really limited. 4 5 So since you left -- I suppose to teach, to train That is my guess, but again, to me, that is This looks like a facade for Even the London Centre doesn't look like -- I 15 mean really, completely unprofessional, not organized. 16 It was very strange. 17 number of people from -- I mean I talked -- my 18 expertise was European Union, and then they put me in 19 touch with a number of people from the Middle East, 20 trying to raise money from the Middle East, and that is 21 -- and then they would say, "Okay, if you raise money 22 to finance this project, and you will earn on this They put me in touch with a 50 1 project." And I said, "Sorry, I signed a contract for a 2 3 salary, and I don't understand why we are changing the 4 condition of work, or the terms on my cooperation in 5 this -- with the London Centre." 6 confused by the -- I didn't understand their agenda. So I was very But they were organizing events, inviting 7 8 people, mostly political connection. As I said, in -- 9 from the Mifsud side with Italian government. I think 10 there are quite enough evidence that Mifsud is very 11 well connected to Western intelligence right now. I don't know what he was doing in Russia, but 12 13 -- so definitely his connection to the Campus, his 14 connection to the Italian government, and to Scotti, 15 which was, at the time, a foreign minister of Italy 16 makes me think he had definitely very deep ties. 17 mean -- 18 MR. SWALWELL: 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 I What was your title? And he is also the -- member of the Clinton Foundation. 21 MR. SWALWELL: 22 MS. MANGIANTE: Who was? Mifsud is a member of the 51 1 Clinton Foundation. 2 MR. SWALWELL: 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 MR. SWALWELL: 5 6 How did you know that? He told me. What did he tell you about the foundation? MS. MANGIANTE: He told it also in a public 7 interview, not -- he was always talking about him being 8 important, because it is the way -- you know, he is 9 always playing, like, a big role, and "I am a member of 10 11 the Clinton Foundation." And I think in the public interview, when 12 they -- The Republic, which is an Italian journal, the 13 last one released -- I can try to find this article for 14 you on -- I will just note it -- it says, "Why would I 15 introduce Papadopoulos to Russian agent? 16 of the Clinton Foundation." 17 18 19 MR. SWALWELL: All right. I am a part But do you recall him ever talking about the Clinton Foundation to you? MS. MANGIANTE: Not -- yeah, to many -- yeah, 20 it was a -- yes. To me and to other people, yes. 21 remember once he was talking about it. 22 he was talking about it. I I remember once 52 MR. SWALWELL: 1 2 you started working there? MS. MANGIANTE: 3 4 MR. SWALWELL: 6 arrangement? 7 annual salary? And what was your salary Was it a hourly salary, or is it an How was it -- 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 9 MR. SWALWELL: 11 Director for international diplomatic relation. 5 10 What was your job title when Monthly. Monthly? And what was the salary? MS. MANGIANTE: Well, it was -- the 12 arrangement was based of 2,500 pounds, which was much 13 less than I used to earn -- 14 MR. SWALWELL: 15 MS. MANGIANTE: A month? -- at the European 16 Parliament, but I -- you know, and then adding, like, 17 benefits over, you know, achievement -- 18 MR. SWALWELL: 19 MS. MANGIANTE: Yes. Like, first of all, when I 20 joined the London Centre, I talked -- I was going to 21 work with the law cases, because it is, of course, 22 qualified as London Centre international law practice. 53 1 I never see anyone practicing law over there. 2 was my first question mark. So this What is this about? Because I am a lawyer, I was expecting to be 3 4 in the political field work, again, with law practice 5 that could have, of course, a European focus, European 6 law focus -MR. SWALWELL: 7 8 MS. MANGIANTE: MR. SWALWELL: 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 MR. SWALWELL: 14 MS. MANGIANTE: ended. MR. SWALWELL: 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 20 21 22 It was -- and that was a Yes. And you left that job -No, I didn't left it, it My contract, I was a temporary agent. 16 18 Mm-hmm. decrease from what you were making for the EU? 12 15 So it was 2,500 a month, pounds. 9 11 So let me just back up. Your contract -So I did not -- I didn't have much choice. MR. SWALWELL: Could you have extended, if you had wanted? MS. MANGIANTE: went -- no. I should have -- no, I really I was very disappointed because I was 54 1 evicted by my position, by the vice president at the 2 time, and I did a claim against European Parliament and 3 -- still into now. MR. SWALWELL: 4 And it was less than what you 5 were making at the EU, but was it significantly less? 6 Like was it 50 percent less, or -- just trying to 7 understand the difference -- 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 9 MR. SWALWELL: 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. SWALWELL: It was the half. I am sorry? Half. Half? Half of what you are 12 making? And you were -- you said it was a total of 13 three months without being paid before you said -- 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 15 MR. SWALWELL: 16 MS. MANGIANTE: 17 Yes. -- enough. It was crazy. So I started to practice law by myself. MR. SWALWELL: 18 And you wrote an email to Mr. 19 Idris and Martin Wilson and Mr. Pittella and Mr. Mifsud 20 that you wanted to be paid, and you asked about being 21 paid. 22 hope you are fine. You said -- and he wrote back, "Dear Simona, I I was in Moscow. Now I am in 55 1 London. Can we meet in person? 2 Tuesday night. A hug. J." 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 MR. SWALWELL: 5 Yeah. Did you ever write back to that email? 6 MS. MANGIANTE: 7 MR. SWALWELL: 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 9 I am here until No. Why not? At the time I had enough of them. 10 MR. SWALWELL: 11 MS. MANGIANTE: I am sorry? I had -- as far as I 12 remember, either I replied something like I can't make 13 it, either I didn't reply. 14 check in my mail, see if there is any answer to Mifsud. 15 But that -- I never met with him. 16 thought they were charlatans. 17 about some people, shady people, introduced to me. 18 They were not serious at all. 19 MR. SWALWELL: 20 MS. MANGIANTE: I don't remember. I can I was very upset. I was very upset also They -- Who were not? Introduced me -- to me. 21 remember Nagi Idris -- my job task was to deal with 22 this person from Iraq, who invited me to secret I I 56 1 symposium in Beirut, and they refused to disclose the 2 agenda, the -- and then the -- and even the -- you 3 know, the attendants, who are -- I mean it was really 4 unprofessional and I felt very much insulted, because I 5 think I didn't need it. MR. SWALWELL: 6 7 heard from Mifsud? 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 9 MR. SWALWELL: 10 This is the last email, yes. That email was the last time - - 11 MS. MANGIANTE: 12 MR. SWALWELL: 13 Was that the last time you Yes, yes. Did he ever follow up with a phone call? 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 15 MR. SWALWELL: 16 MS. MANGIANTE: 17 MR. SWALWELL: 18 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 MR. SWALWELL: Never. Did you ever run into him -Never. -- anywhere? Never. What drew you to want to work 20 for Professor Mifsud? Was -- were you impressed by his 21 work, was he just someone who was dynamic in 22 personality? What was -- 57 MS. MANGIANTE: 1 To be totally honest with 2 you, I was -- for personal reasons at the time I wanted 3 to live in London. 4 then I said I still have to be there, and then I will 5 figure out what to do. MR. SWALWELL: 6 7 MS. MANGIANTE: MR. SWALWELL: MS. MANGIANTE: 13 MR. SWALWELL: MS. MANGIANTE: No. Is that someone -- was that No. I don't want to answer these -MR. SWALWELL: 17 18 And that is not Mr. person an Italian national? 15 16 At the time my boyfriend Papadopoulos? 12 14 Why did you want to be in there. 10 11 What nationality was this person? 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SWALWELL: 21 Are you aware of Mr. Mifsud's activities 22 And London? 8 9 And it was the biggest offer. since your last exchange? French. French? Okay. Do you know if he has been 58 1 in touch with anyone that you know? 2 MS. MANGIANTE: 3 with anybody -MR. SWALWELL: 4 5 MS. MANGIANTE: He might have been in touch with Pittella. 8 MR. SWALWELL: 9 MS. MANGIANTE: 10 Since your October 13, 2016 email. 6 7 If Mifsud has been in touch "Who is Mifsud?" Did Pittella tell you this? I asked Pittella many times, And he said, "I have no idea." And he said, "You should care who is 11 12 Papadopoulos," like why you keep asking me about 13 Mifsud. MR. SWALWELL: 14 15 So you don't have any firsthand knowledge of where Mr. Mifsud is today? MS. MANGIANTE: 16 No. I tried to -- actually, 17 I tried to ask contacts around, but apparently -- in 18 this Stephen Roh book it says -- but I don't know how 19 much credible is it, I don't know if you had a copy of 20 this book -- he says he is in Italy, hidden in Italy 21 somewhere. 22 I don't know. MR. SWALWELL: Did you discuss with George 59 1 your decision in late October 2016 to stop working for 2 Professor Mifsud? MS. MANGIANTE: 3 At that time, no. Me and 4 George were never -- we didn't meet each other. 5 first time we start to communicate was probably in 6 September 2016. George reached out to me -- 7 MR. SWALWELL: 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 9 The On LinkedIn? -- on LinkedIn, based on saying, oh, you are working there, as well. I had no 10 conversation with him at all. 11 not have the confidence to talk about my professional 12 problems. 13 MR. SWALWELL: 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 15 16 I mean mostly I would Yes. I met George for the first time in April 2017 in New York. MR. SWALWELL: When he reached out to you on 17 LinkedIn, where did the conversation move? 18 to email, or text message? 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SWALWELL: 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 MR. SWALWELL: Did it move WhatsApp. WhatsApp? Mm-hmm. Did you ever communicate in 60 1 any other way, besides WhatsApp? 2 MS. MANGIANTE: 3 MR. SWALWELL: 4 MS. MANGIANTE: 5 MR. SWALWELL: 6 MS. MANGIANTE: 7 Probably Skype. Skype? Mm-hmm. Okay. Any other -- Skype, LinkedIn, WhatsApp, Facebook -- 8 MR. SWALWELL: 9 MS. MANGIANTE: 10 MR. SWALWELL: 11 MS. MANGIANTE: 12 MR. SWALWELL: 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SWALWELL: 15 MS. MANGIANTE: Did you ever use -No, no, it was much later on. How about Gmail? With George? Yes. No. How about Facebook Messenger? We -- I connected with George 16 on Facebook only later on, when I met with him, not 17 before. 18 MR. SWALWELL: 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SWALWELL: 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 George, no. Okay. How about Telegram? No. Have you ever used Telegram? I think I did, but not with 61 MR. SWALWELL: 1 2 When did you start using Telegram? MS. MANGIANTE: 3 I probably used it shortly -- 4 I don't remember, really. 5 application like WhatsApp, right? 6 MR. SWALWELL: 7 MS. MANGIANTE: I used -- it is an Yes. Yeah, they disappear, the 8 messages, after -- that is the application you are 9 talking about? 10 MR. SWALWELL: Yes. 11 MS. MANGIANTE: Yeah, probably used it for -- 12 and then I deleted it, because I like to keep my 13 messages. 14 MR. SCHIFF: If I could just follow up with a 15 few questions on this part of the chronology, and then 16 maybe we will turn to Mr. Quigley. 17 When you were working at the Centre, apart 18 from Mr. Idris and Mr. Mifsud, who else can you recall 19 was working there? 20 21 22 What other staff did they have? MS. MANGIANTE: A British national, I think, Peter something. MR. SCHIFF: You said Mr. Idris was your 62 1 immediate boss. 2 MS. MANGIANTE: 3 MR. SCHIFF: 4 And was Professor Mifsud his boss? 5 MS. MANGIANTE: 6 MR. SCHIFF: 7 MS. MANGIANTE: 8 MR. SCHIFF: 9 Yes. No, they were both director. They were both co-directors. Yes, co-directors, yeah. And about how many staff did the Centre have? MS. MANGIANTE: 10 I -- that is a question that 11 -- I mean I -- I don't even know if I could be 12 considered a staff member, because they were random 13 people. 14 the same week. 15 their laptop. 16 need to come here, you can work home." 17 -- no structure whatever. I would not meet the same person for the -- in People would randomly come in, open Idris would tell me, "You don't even It was really 18 If I can give any -- an image what is going 19 on, it was Nagi at a little desk with a computer, the 20 British director on the other side, and then people 21 coming randomly, you know, just sitting at the table, 22 open their laptop. Everybody not coordinating with 63 1 each other, organizing -- I remember the only -- that 2 was a conference organized once, and it is the only 3 thing attended -MR. SCHIFF: 4 So in terms of supervisory 5 personnel, apart from Mifsud and Idris, the only other 6 person was this British -- 7 MS. MANGIANTE: 8 MR. SCHIFF: 9 MS. MANGIANTE: MR. SCHIFF: 10 11 -- person. 13 MR. SCHIFF: 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 17 Peter. -- his last name? I can check on -- I really don't remember. MR. SCHIFF: And were you ever paid by the Centre, or -- 18 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 MR. SCHIFF: 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. SCHIFF: 22 And you don't recall -MS. MANGIANTE: 16 That I met personally. Named Peter. 12 15 Yes. Nobody paid me, never. And I take it from -I didn't -- -- listening to your description, the Centre -- it came across to you as 64 1 some kind of a front for something else. 2 MS. MANGIANTE: 3 MR. SCHIFF: 4 MS. MANGIANTE: Completely. It was not what was advertised? It was advertised as a London 5 -- a serious -- but if you go on the website, they 6 would talk about a serious project and human rights. 7 But then it is completely facade, facade. 8 9 MR. SCHIFF: And do you have any idea where Mifsud got his money? 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. SCHIFF: 12 MS. MANGIANTE: No idea. Or -But definitely -- what I know 13 is that he failed to appear to court in Palermo, 14 probably last week. 15 inflated -- for money reason, apparently inflated -- he 16 wanted more money for his contribution to a university 17 in Palermo, in Sicily. 18 They said it is a ghost. 19 I don't know where is money coming from. 20 21 22 And he was -- because he didn't -- But -- and he didn't appear. So he is having legal issues. I remember Nagi Idris would tell me that they were bankrupt when I was -MR. SCHIFF: That they were bankrupt? 65 MS. MANGIANTE: 1 Yes, when I was asking for my 2 salary. 3 We are all bankrupt. 4 to look at the big picture." 5 He said, "You have to look at long picture. Mifsud is bankrupt. So you have The only task I used to work with Mifs ud was 6 to organize a meeting with the ambassador from Abu 7 Dhabi in London. 8 completely -- the focus they wanted from me was Middle 9 East, which made no sense. 10 in the Middle East at all. 11 So my -- I mean my focus was MR. SCHIFF: I have no experience myself Didn't Mifsud, Professor Mifsud, 12 did he make use of your Italian or European contacts? 13 Did he ask you to put him in touch with people? 14 MS. MANGIANTE: Oh, yes, yes. He wanted me 15 to be in touch with the Ministry of Education in Italy, 16 trying to -- even people that I didn't know. 17 And then I was invited myself to a conference 18 in Rome organized by an association with the minister 19 of justice for children, because I used to work in this 20 field, so I was well known, and they kept inviting me. 21 And Naji Idris came with me, and he was acting very 22 weird, like trying to take -- like trying to take big 66 1 connections, you know. 2 weird. MR. SCHIFF: 3 He was acting very weird, very And knowing what you do now 4 about the sort of sketchy nature of the Centre and the 5 questionable background of Professor Mifsud, is there 6 anything in retrospect that you look back on now that 7 would indicate to you that Mr. Mifsud was acting as an 8 agent of a foreign power? MS. MANGIANTE: 9 That is an interesting 10 question. 11 fitting the profile of a foreign agent in the extent in 12 which he was constantly capable to answer a question 13 without answering a question. 14 where he was, and you were supposed to work with him. 15 Actually, I think yes. I think he was You would never know It was targeting people to have access -- 16 specific environment. 17 certain way, too, for my contacts in Italy. 18 me -- I mean it was never work. 19 Centre was never work. 20 I felt myself was targeted in a He wanted Like -- so London But the way he lived was very -- today I can 21 see he is not an academic. 22 could be a facade. I mean he pretends to be, I am not sure his income can come 67 1 from this bankrupt organization. He used to train intelligence officer. 2 He 3 had the very ties -- very deep ties with the Link 4 Campus, which is well-known for its -- for being the 5 center of Italian intelligence, in many ways. 6 know, though, if these information are true. 7 trying to be accurate and -- but I think -- I suspect 8 they are. 9 what I am saying. I don't I am just I mean I cannot have the 100 percent sure I don't want to be sued or that, but 10 I definitely can see somebody who is -- you don't know 11 where he was living, if he was living in a room, if he 12 was living in London. It is very difficult to profile, to -- this 13 14 extent, yes. Today I think -- and the fact that he 15 disappeared completely ex post makes me think that 16 definitely could be foreign agent. MR. SCHIFF: 17 Did anyone maintain a calendar 18 of Mifsud's meetings or calls at the Centre, that you 19 know of? MS. MANGIANTE: 20 21 22 They would not give access to me. MR. SCHIFF: Did he have an executive 68 1 assistant, though, that would -MS. MANGIANTE: 2 Yes. I think he changed the 3 -- I met him with different girls all the time. 4 everyone was an assistant. MR. SCHIFF: 5 6 I don't know. Do you remember the names of any of his assistants? MS. MANGIANTE: 7 8 So No. Maybe one is in the email. MR. SCHIFF: 9 In the statement of the offense 10 that your husband attested to, there is a reference to 11 a female Russian national. 12 with her? 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SCHIFF: 15 16 Did you ever see Mifsud No, no. And do you know who that Russian national is? MS. MANGIANTE: Absolutely not. 17 is another thing about Mifsud. 18 He would inflate people's title. 19 I -- there He would talk a lot. I will not be -- I don't know why he came up 20 with Putin's niece, if he wanted to impress George or 21 if he wanted to impress the girl. 22 am not sure why he was inflating this. I don't know. But I I mean it was 69 1 giving -- he was introducing this person as niece of 2 Putin. 3 her. 4 5 6 7 She was a student, apparently. I think I never did. MR. SCHIFF: about the London Academy of Diplomacy? MS. MANGIANTE: 9 MS. MANGIANTE: 12 That he was running -- that it was incredible -MR. SCHIFF: 11 And he talks a lot. What did Mifsud ever tell you 8 10 I never met MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever go there? Yes. And what was that academy? What kind of a physical structure did it have? MS. MANGIANTE: It was a beautiful structure, 13 quite a credible -- compared to the London Centre -- 14 London Centre also very nice location, where all the 15 law offices are located in London, Chancery Lane. 16 when I went there for the first time I also thought it 17 was kind of incredible. 18 So London Academy was definitely a big building 19 with different rooms for students, with a room with a 20 café, and then Mifsud office upstairs -- 21 22 MR. SCHIFF: And was he a professor there, or was he an owner there, or -- what was his role there? 70 MS. MANGIANTE: 1 I don't understand -- I think 2 he was -- I don't know. 3 this London Academy as his own body, but I don't know 4 if he was lying or if it was, again, inflating himself. MR. SCHIFF: 5 6 I think it was talking about And this academy ostensibly taught people how to be diplomats? 7 MS. MANGIANTE: 8 MR. SCHIFF: 9 10 And then the Link facility that he was also associated with ostensibly taught people how to be intelligence or law enforcement officers? MS. MANGIANTE: 11 12 Technically, yeah. Yes, among others, among diplomats, but also intelligence officers. MR. SCHIFF: 13 And were there any other 14 institutions that he was affiliated with that you knew 15 of? MS. MANGIANTE: 16 Yes, Stirling's University in 17 Scotland, and a university in Palermo, too. I don't 18 know. 19 universities as professor. 20 him giving academic speech; simply seen him connecting. So many -- it was running around different 21 MR. SCHIFF: 22 MR. SWALWELL: But actually, I never heard You mentioned -May I just ask a question? 71 1 MR. SCHIFF: 2 MR. SWALWELL: 3 MS. MANGIANTE: No, this is the result of my little research after all this kind of came out. 6 MR. SWALWELL: 7 MS. MANGIANTE: 8 On Link University, were you aware of its affiliations with Russian universities? 4 5 Yes. But did you ever -I wanted more information about the -MR. SWALWELL: 9 -- hear anything about 10 Lomanosov Moscow State University? 11 discussed? 12 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 MR. SWALWELL: 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 15 16 Was that ever No. How about -I mean I never been to the Link Campus. MR. SWALWELL: No, I am just talking about 17 did Professor Mifsud ever talk about the affiliation 18 that Link had with seven different Russian 19 universities? 20 21 22 MS. MANGIANTE: Not with -- he has association with Russian. MR. SWALWELL: No, but the -- that there was 72 1 an official link -- that there was an official 2 connection between Link and seven Russian universities. 3 Were you aware of that? 4 MS. MANGIANTE: 5 MR. SWALWELL: 6 MR. SCHIFF: I didn't know that. Okay, thanks. You mentioned Stephen Roh as, I 7 guess, one of the principals behind the Link Center, 8 and someone close to Mifsud. MS. MANGIANTE: 9 Yeah. I never met with him. 10 I remember Mifsud, one of our last meetings, he asked 11 me to contact him to organize an event in London. 12 I quit. Then And I -- then later on I -- during my 13 14 research, asking around to different people in touch 15 with Mifsud, I realize that he is a close partner, 16 employer. 17 technically one of the -- his consultants, and is 18 married to this Russian princess, who is financing some 19 of the activities. 20 I don't know, I think Mifsud is employer, MR. SCHIFF: There has been some public 21 reporting that in April of 2016 Mifsud and Roh spoke on 22 a panel together at a Kremlin-backed club, the Valdai 73 1 Club. 2 MS. MANGIANTE: 3 MR. SCHIFF: 4 Did he ever discuss that with you? 5 MS. MANGIANTE: 6 MR. SCHIFF: 7 No, never. Were you aware that they -- that he had participated in that event? MS. MANGIANTE: 8 9 Ah, yes. Googled him. On Internet, you know, when I But in 2016, no. I was working for the 10 European Parliament still. 11 Mifsud is very limited from September 2016 until 12 November 2016. 13 the London Centre. 15 That is the time of the -- working for MR. SCHIFF: 14 Okay. Mr. Quigley, who may or may not be your Member of Congress, and if you need -- 16 MR. QUIGLEY: 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 18 So my experience with Same -Just like write a message to -- 19 MR. SCHIFF: Sure, sure. 20 MS. MANGIANTE: For lunch, just -- I think -- 21 I don't know, I think it is going -- I mean no rush, 22 just to -- 74 MR. SCHIFF: 1 2 No, no, please. the restroom, myself. 3 (A brief recess was taken.) 4 MR. QUIGLEY: 5 I need to use I am Mike Quigley. Thank you for being here. To sum a few things up in a question, should 6 7 we trust or believe anything that the professor says or 8 has said? 9 strong, that you would doubt or question whatever he 10 I mean is your skepticism about him that says publicly? MS. MANGIANTE: 11 Not that strong. I mean I 12 can't be 100 percent sure he is lying about everything 13 he says. MR. QUIGLEY: 14 15 I am just saying his personality -- sneaky, weird -- 16 MS. MANGIANTE: 17 MR. QUIGLEY: 18 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 22 Completely. -- fake, artificial. Completely, yes. That is what his -MR. QUIGLEY: 20 21 I think you used the words That is hardly compelling to trust. MS. MANGIANTE: No, no, of course. But I 75 1 always save the benefit of the doubts, even to liar 2 sometimes. MR. QUIGLEY: 3 Well, I mean, you lasted three 4 months without getting paid. 5 that at some point they were going to pay you, right? MS. MANGIANTE: 6 What gave you that trust It was unbelievable to me 7 they were going to be not serious at this point -- I 8 mean at that point. MR. QUIGLEY: 9 10 It was -To your knowledge, was anyone else not paid at the Centre? MS. MANGIANTE: 11 No, but I remember -- I mean 12 I don't remember the name, but I was talking with this 13 guy from Iraq, and I was telling him are you paid here, 14 he said, "No, they didn't pay me yet, but they told me 15 they are going to." 16 mean at least when I confronted somebody else working 17 there, and they shared my same experience. So I remember it was quite -- I MR. QUIGLEY: 18 And I just -- why don't you 19 give it one more stab at this? 20 a front. 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 MR. QUIGLEY: You called it a facade, That is my perception, yes. Yes. You were there for three 76 1 months, you got to know these folks and at least see 2 some of the operations. 3 was really going on? Give us your best guess. MS. MANGIANTE: 4 What I think three months were -- 5 time, long enough to develop my perception that they 6 were everything but serious. 7 they were not lawyers. 8 himself as international lawyer, and I never see him 9 working with a law case. They were not academics, Nagi Idris was introducing Professor Mifsud was introducing himself as 10 11 an academic. I never see him giving a speech or deep 12 in an academic topic. I have seen a very disorganized context, 13 14 where there were randomly organized meetings, 15 introducing me to other shady people -- I remember -- 16 so -- 17 MR. QUIGLEY: 18 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 MR. QUIGLEY: 20 MS. MANGIANTE: What were they really doing? I can give you my guess. That is what I am asking for. Coordinating people, 21 infiltrating other contacts for financing projects, 22 trying to take money from governments. That is my 77 1 perception. 2 I think that definitely this could be very 3 comfortable facade for spies, because the profile of 4 the people you would meet through them was still quite 5 high. MR. QUIGLEY: 6 You couple this -- Mr. Swalwell 7 has a quick interjection here -- you couple this with 8 his, as you mentioned, coming back from Moscow, they 9 are coordinating something for or with the Russians? MS. MANGIANTE: 10 I can't say that, because it 11 is not enough of an information. 12 from Moscow -MR. QUIGLEY: 13 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SWALWELL: MR. QUIGLEY: 19 MR. SWALWELL: 21 22 But -- But it was going -Were you ever directed by the Centre -- 18 20 Coordinating for someone, but they are going back and forth from Moscow. 15 17 He was coming back I am sorry. -- to represent yourself as somebody that you were not? MS. MANGIANTE: Did they ever tell you -- Yeah. To me, I was definitely not a director of international diplomatic 78 1 relation. 2 Centre, I was -- 3 How could I ever -- I mean I just joined the MR. SWALWELL: No, I am sorry, I should have 4 been clear. Did the Centre -- did Mr. Mifsud or anyone 5 at the Centre ever ask you to present yourself to 6 somebody else not using your true name, but by -- 7 MS. MANGIANTE: 8 MR. SWALWELL: 9 No, never. No, never. Did you ever see them ask someone else to do that? 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. SWALWELL: 12 MS. MANGIANTE: No, I never seen that. Did you ever -But definitely, when I told 13 them why should I introduce myself -- this is 14 interesting -- why should I introduce myself as 15 director of international diplomatic corporation if I 16 didn't -- they said, "You have to say things to earn 17 people's trust and to have access to people. 18 doesn't matter if it is true or not." 19 they said to me. 20 21 22 MR. SWALWELL: It That is what Did they ever ask you to lie for the Centre? MS. MANGIANTE: Yes, of course. I mean this 79 1 is a lie. I was not a -- I mean Nagi Idris asked me to 2 basically lie about my contribution to the London 3 Centre. 4 identity, but definitely to present myself with skills 5 I don't have. I mean he didn't ask me to use a different It is a lie. 6 MR. SWALWELL: 7 MS. MANGIANTE: 8 MR. SWALWELL: 9 And did you do that? No. Did you ever lie for the Centre? 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. QUIGLEY: No. Let me just tell you why I 12 asked the question, because you mentioned the professor 13 talking about going back from Moscow. 14 quote -- if this is accurate -- in the January 18th 15 interview with The Guardian, "I never met any Russians 16 there." 17 never met any Poles there," or French there? 18 it -- 19 20 21 22 But also in your Why would you mention Russians? MS. MANGIANTE: Why not "I Why was Because everybody is asking me if I met Russians. MR. QUIGLEY: months you lasted. Okay. All right. So three 80 1 MS. MANGIANTE: 2 MR. QUIGLEY: 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 MR. QUIGLEY: 5 MS. MANGIANTE: 6 MR. QUIGLEY: 7 MS. MANGIANTE: 8 MR. QUIGLEY: MS. MANGIANTE: 10 November 2016. November -I think end of November 2016. Okay. I don't remember the -- which Okay. Now -- I can check on the email. Sorry, I don't want to give you -- 12 MR. QUIGLEY: 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. QUIGLEY: 15 And so you left exactly when? is the date on my email, October or November. 9 11 Yeah. That is fine. I am very bad with numbers. So you were there three months and you finally said "I need to get paid" and that's -- 16 MS. MANGIANTE: 17 MR. QUIGLEY: 18 MS. MANGIANTE: No --- primarily why you quit? Payment was part of the -- of 19 course, it is a problem, because you have to make a 20 living. 21 found them completely not transparent. 22 But it is -- it was not the only problem. I could have invested, in terms of I 81 1 professional experience, even a month more, if I found 2 it interesting at some point through, I don't know, a 3 project. But I really found them unprofessional -- 4 MR. QUIGLEY: 5 MS. MANGIANTE: 6 transparent. 7 me. 9 10 So if the work had been worthwhile and valuable, you would have probably stuck it out a little bit longer. 11 MS. MANGIANTE: 12 MR. QUIGLEY: 13 Unprofessional, and not I never understood what they wanted from MR. QUIGLEY: 8 So if the work -- Exactly, yeah. I mean how were you able to support yourself? MS. MANGIANTE: 14 Well, I -- when I left 15 European Parliament, first of all, I had a big 16 allowance from European Parliament. 17 savings. 18 19 MR. QUIGLEY: There have been reports that your husband briefly worked at the Centre. 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. QUIGLEY: 22 All right. Also my saving, my that accurate? Yes. Were you aware of that? Is 82 1 MS. MANGIANTE: 2 MR. QUIGLEY: 3 Do you know when he worked there, when he started, or when -MS. MANGIANTE: 4 5 much before I did. 6 the London -- I don't remember, but I k now So we never crossed each other at MR. QUIGLEY: 7 8 It is true, yes, he did. He worked before -- he worked at the Centre before you did? MS. MANGIANTE: 9 MR. QUIGLEY: 10 Yes, yes. Did he tell you when he 11 started, or do you know, personally, when he started, 12 and how long -MS. MANGIANTE: 13 To be honest with you, he 14 probably told me, but I don't remember. 15 there also for a couple of months, probably two, three 16 months. 17 same person. He had also as direct boss Nagi Idris, the 18 MR. QUIGLEY: 19 MS. MANGIANTE: His boss would have been -Nagi Idris, too. 20 was his boss, George's boss, too. 21 MR. QUIGLEY: 22 He has been Okay. Nagi Idris And do you have any idea of roughly how long before you worked there? 83 MS. MANGIANTE: 1 I think it was shortly before 2 he joined the Trump campaign, I don't know. Or -- I 3 don't -- I mean, honestly, I don't know. 4 met with Mifsud in Rome some time -- it was in March of 5 2016, right? 6 time. 7 met Mifsud, where Mifsud approached him. 8 be around -- but I -- don't take it for -- I mean I can 9 check, but it must be -- I think he was working there But I know he So he might have worked with them at the He went on a trip with Naji to Rome, where he So it might 10 around March 2017, but I am very bad with the dates, I 11 can -- 12 MR. QUIGLEY: 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. QUIGLEY: 15 16 MS. MANGIANTE: think before, right? 18 it would be now. 20 21 22 Sixteen, sorry, sixteen. So you think he worked there before he got involved with the Trump campaign? 17 19 2017 or 2016? I It makes no sense after, because MR. QUIGLEY: is possible. I think he did, yeah. I have learned to -- anything I appreciate that. MS. MANGIANTE: No, I am trying to think in my memory, trying to -- I don't know -- I can't tell 84 1 you the dates, exactly. MR. QUIGLEY: 2 3 working there? Did he have similar experiences? MS. MANGIANTE: 4 Did he talk to you about Our first conversation, 5 honestly, was, "Do you understand this Mifsud? 6 does he do?" I remember George asking me that. 7 MR. QUIGLEY: 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 9 10 11 12 13 14 Mifsud? I am sorry. "What do you know about That is his first question, one of his first -MR. QUIGLEY: Was this your communication with him in person, or by -MS. MANGIANTE: No, it was in person, when we met months later. MR. QUIGLEY: 16 MS. MANGIANTE: 18 What did he ask? Who is this person?" 15 17 What Okay, so he was -At the beginning we didn't talk about Mifsud. MR. QUIGLEY: So he asked you about Mifsud. 19 Do you think -- did you understand that is when he was 20 thinking about working for the Centre, or while he was 21 working at the Centre? 22 MS. MANGIANTE: No, it -- we were having this 85 1 -- no, this was later, when we met. 2 was -- so after the Trump -- everything, you know, 3 much -- 4 MR. QUIGLEY: 5 MS. MANGIANTE: So the first time Oh, so you -When we met in New York for 6 the first time, we are laughing because we both had 7 difficulty to profile Mifsud. 8 was the only things we had in common at the time. 9 MR. QUIGLEY: Was the -- 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. QUIGLEY: 12 Because, of course, it Mifsud and London Centre. The experience of working at the Centre? 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. QUIGLEY: Yes, exactly. What did he say to you after 15 the fact about what it was like working there, and his 16 -- did he say much at all about what it was like 17 working there, as you were commiserating about it? 18 MS. MANGIANTE: I don't remember the 19 conversation, I just remember we were literally 20 laughing about Mifsud. 21 is what happened. 22 MR. QUIGLEY: It is not nice to say, but it Okay. And he had a different 86 1 boss, but he was working with the professor at that 2 point? MS. MANGIANTE: 3 No, it was not working for 4 Mifsud, it was work -- I think George's boss was the -- 5 my same boss, Naji Idris. 6 MR. QUIGLEY: 7 MS. MANGIANTE: But Mifsud is around there. Mifsud, at the time, was not, 8 I think, yet director of the London -- of the 9 international law practice, London Centre. I think 10 Mifsud approached George in Rome during a trip that 11 George did to the Link Campus with Naji Idris. MR. QUIGLEY: 12 Okay. Did George mention 13 working at all at that time, any connection with the 14 professor? 15 MS. MANGIANTE: The only -- no. The only 16 things that George told me is that while he was working 17 in London Centre he went to Rome with Naji Idris. 18 was approached by Mifsud, who started to sell himself 19 as somebody big, introduced to him this girl, saying 20 that she was Putin's niece. 21 randomly talking about emails. 22 about emails on Hillary Clinton, but really randomly. He And he said it was They started to gossip 87 1 That was -- that is something that I can see Mifsud 2 doing, because he talks a lot. 3 MR. QUIGLEY: Was he paid? 4 MS. MANGIANTE: I think -- I asked him. I 5 think probably -- I don't know if it is -- he told me 6 he has been paid probably one month, and then he was 7 not paid any more, I don't know. 8 At least George probably was paid, though. MR. QUIGLEY: 9 10 They never paid me. And again, I am sorry, how long did George work there? MS. MANGIANTE: 11 I don't know. I mean I can't 12 give you the details about his -- I think not much, 13 either. I don't remember. MR. QUIGLEY: 14 Did he talk about any of the 15 work he did there the period of time he worked, or what 16 kind of work he did? MS. MANGIANTE: 17 18 discussed was Mifsud. 19 discussed. Honestly, the only thing we That is the only things we I don't know, really. 20 MR. QUIGLEY: Okay. 21 Do you have any follow-up on this? 22 MR. SCHIFF: I don't know if you are prepared 88 1 to go -MR. QUIGLEY: 2 3 I just want to make sure, before I do, if you have any follow-up on this section. MR. SCHIFF: 4 Just to make sure that I 5 understand the chronology, your understanding is that 6 your husband initially was working for the Centre for 7 Idris, he did not know Mifsud when he went to work for 8 the Centre? MS. MANGIANTE: 9 MR. SCHIFF: 10 Yeah. At some point, while he was 11 working for the Centre, he is asked to go to this Link 12 Campus. 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SCHIFF: On a trip with Naji. On a trip with Mr. Idris. And 15 the Link Campus, that is a campus of the University of 16 Malta in Italy. Is that what that is? MS. MANGIANTE: 17 No, I think it is an 18 international campus. 19 University -- I think it is -- has partnership with the 20 London Centre, with another number -- I don't know 21 Malta. 22 I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: I don't know if it is from Probably even Malta. And so he goes with Idris, your 89 1 husband goes with Idris to the Link Campus. 2 MS. MANGIANTE: 3 MR. SCHIFF: 4 MS. MANGIANTE: 5 Mm-hmm. And there he meets Mifsud. Yes. That is my recollection. MR. SCHIFF: 6 And I think it states -- and I 7 think this is in the state of the offense -- that 8 Mifsud showed a particular interest in your husband 9 when he learned that he was working on the Trump 10 campaign. 11 MS. MANGIANTE: 12 MR. SCHIFF: Yeah. Would that indicate, then, that 13 your husband's work for the Centre was concurrent with 14 his work on the campaign? 15 MS. MANGIANTE: I don't know. I don't know 16 which -- my husband worked in the Centre -- I think, as 17 a person interested in building political networks, he 18 targeted George because he was going to join the Trump 19 campaign and could be a new access to some other 20 political environment. 21 22 MR. SCHIFF: But just in terms of timing, does this indicate to you, if Mifsud showed an interest 90 1 in your husband when he learned your husband was 2 working with the Trump campaign, that your husband was, 3 in fact, working with the Trump campaign at the same 4 time he was also working for the Centre? MS. MANGIANTE: 5 6 Definitely wasn't. 7 Naji Idris. 8 time. 10 It wasn't. I think it was on trip to Rome with It wasn't work for the two at the same MR. SCHIFF: 9 No, no, no. Well, what I am saying is he went to Rome on a trip with Idris while he was -MS. MANGIANTE: 11 This was -- no, it was 12 actually -- that is also the interesting -- he didn't 13 join officially the Trump campaign during this meeting. 14 He was going to join the Trump campaign. 15 to be appointed officially as a foreign policy advisor 16 to the Trump campaign only a few days later this 17 meeting. 18 him to join the Trump campaign. He was going And when he went there, they were discussing That is why is lie to the FBI when they ask 19 20 him when did you meet Mifsud, during or after the 21 campaign. 22 he was not officially appointed yet. And, actually, he said before -- is because So it confused. 91 1 But even though there were already discussion about -- 2 at the time about him joining the campaign. 3 he was going to join the campaign, but he was -- you 4 know, this happened officially only days later. MR. SCHIFF: 5 I see. So he knew So just in terms of 6 chronology, then, he goes to Rome with Idris, meets 7 Mifsud. 8 he is going to be the foreign policy advisor for the 9 Trump campaign, but has not started yet? 10 And at the time he meets Mifsud, he knows that MS. MANGIANTE: Well, I can't answer those 11 questions, really, because it is -- I don't -- I didn't 12 even know George at the time. 13 give you misleading information. 14 understanding is that I don't even know if the timing 15 was -- he went to Rome, he was working still for London 16 Centre, or went on a trip, like can happen anyway. 17 MR. SCHIFF: 18 MR. SWALWELL: 19 20 So I would not like to I just -- my Okay. I have just a couple more questions about London Centre. Did -- when you were working at -- when you 21 were working at the EU, were you familiar with any work 22 that Mr. Mifsud was doing with the leave campaign and 92 1 Brexit? Was he affiliated with that at all? MS. MANGIANTE: 2 3 lot about it. 5 He asked me to research about Brexit. MR. SWALWELL: 4 Oh, no, but he would talk a What was Mr. Mifsud's position on Brexit? MS. MANGIANTE: 6 He was asking me to arrange 7 meetings with people working for the Brexit at European 8 Commission. MR. SWALWELL: 9 10 leaving, or was he in favor of remaining? 11 MS. MANGIANTE: 12 MR. SWALWELL: 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SWALWELL: 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 17 18 MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Mifsud wanted to remain? Yes. Okay. To him was a disaster, I Did Mr. Mifsud ever talk about any relationship that he had with Boris Johnson? MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SWALWELL: 22 In favor of remaining. remember. 19 21 What was his -- was he for Not to me. Were you aware of any relationship he had with Boris Johnson? MS. MANGIANTE: I just -- no, I didn't -- I 93 1 was not aware at the time. 2 MR. SWALWELL: 3 MS. MANGIANTE: Okay. Are you aware now? Yes, because I have seen some 4 articles in the press, portraying him with Boris 5 Johnson. MR. SWALWELL: 6 How about Nigel Farage? 7 - did Mr. Mifsud have any relationship with Nigel 8 Farage? MS. MANGIANTE: 9 10 MR. SWALWELL: 11 MS. MANGIANTE: I don't know. Who is Olga Polonskya? I learned -- I think you are 12 referring to this person -- Putin's niece. 13 from George and from the press her real name. MR. SWALWELL: 14 15 I learned Before you learned that name from George, did -- 16 MS. MANGIANTE: 17 MR. SWALWELL: 18 Was - I never --- Mr. Mifsud ever talk about her? 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SWALWELL: 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 MR. SWALWELL: No, never. No? Never to me. Okay. One moment. 94 1 (Pause.) 2 MR. SWALWELL: 3 right. One moment, if that is all We will go off the record. 4 (A brief recess was taken.) 5 MR. QUIGLEY: Let's make sure I have -- we 6 talked about it, but I was trying to get this -- the 7 initial meeting between your husband and Mifsud, the 8 professor, is March 2016? 9 MS. MANGIANTE: 10 MR. QUIGLEY: 11 MS. MANGIANTE: 12 MR. QUIGLEY: I think so. Okay. But I am not sure. Okay. And you were -- did -- 13 were you made aware of the circumstances for that? 14 Social, business, just casual interaction the first 15 time they met? 16 MS. MANGIANTE: George told me that Mifsud 17 was very casual and -- what I know is that he was 18 telling George to have a lot of Russian connections. 19 20 MR. QUIGLEY: The professor was telling George to -- 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 MR. QUIGLEY: Yes, yes. -- have the Russian 95 1 connections. 2 MS. MANGIANTE: 3 MR. QUIGLEY: 4 MS. MANGIANTE: Yes, he did. Did he say why? He -- George used -- wanted 5 to -- when he said that, George -- what tried to do, as 6 far as I know, is to organize a meeting between Trump 7 and Putin, because, apparently, the professor was 8 introducing him to Putin's niece, and was telling those 9 important connection in Russia that was -- George told 10 me he understood were probably not even true, because 11 he could not even meet -- organize a meeting with the 12 Russian ambassador in London. I know what George was trying to do, 13 14 actually, was trying to organize a meeting between 15 Trump and Putin. MR. QUIGLEY: 16 17 professor -MS. MANGIANTE: 18 19 And he thought that the And thought that Professor Mifsud was a connection likely to do that. You have to understand that Professor Mifsud, 20 21 yes, he talk about emails on Hillary Clinton to 22 George -- 96 MR. QUIGLEY: 1 Well, what did he think the 2 professor's relationship was with -- did he believe 3 they had a strong relationship with those very high up 4 in the Russian government? MS. MANGIANTE: 5 I think the first impression 6 -- of course, George said, "I meet a man who is 7 introducing himself as an academic in a very important 8 context. 9 I thought he was a nobody when he failed even to I believed he had important connection until 10 organize a meeting with Russian ambassador in London." 11 That is what he told me. 12 So that is -- we can see all these emails in 13 which he tries to organize a meeting between -- as 14 foreign policy advisor to the campaign, he wanted to 15 establish a bridge with the foreign governments. 16 make -- he tried to do it with Russia, as well. 17 not in an illegal, unlawful way, of course. 18 19 I mean When Mifsud talked about emails, he said it was talking -- 20 MR. QUIGLEY: 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 To When he talked about what? -- the emails to George -- When he mentioned that those 97 1 MR. QUIGLEY: Yes. 2 MS. MANGIANTE: Emails on Hillary Clinton. 3 He said, "Oh, you know there are a lot of -- Russian 4 told me there are a lot of dirt on Hillary Clinton." 5 He said he was doing that in a very casual, gossip way, 6 in a specific moment where those emails on Hillary 7 Clinton were speculated a little bit by the press all 8 over the world. 9 importance, and actually never forced to obtain those So he didn't give that much 10 emails in any way. 11 George, he never offered emails. 12 emails. actually. That is interesting. MR. SCHIFF: 15 16 for you about that. 17 chronology straight -- And we have a lot of questions But just so we can keep the 18 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 MR. SCHIFF: 20 He was talking about Now I don't know why he would do that, 13 14 Mifsud never showed any email to Okay, okay. I think we are still interested in -- 21 MR. QUIGLEY: 22 MR. SCHIFF: The initial --- the initial meeting that your 98 1 husband had with Mifsud. What has he related to you 2 about that initial meeting? What did your husband tell you about that 3 4 initial meeting, in particular about any interest that 5 Mifsud showed in either your husband's soon-to-be 6 connection with the Trump campaign, or any ties your 7 husband had with Russia? MS. MANGIANTE: 8 9 George. No, he had no ties with They don't have any ties with Russia 10 whatsoever. 11 for political connection, when he happened to meet in 12 Rome someone that was going to be a policy advisor to 13 the Trump campaign, he targeted him as an -- probably 14 an interesting person to be in touch with. 15 As a -- let's say someone who is seeking What I know -- because, as I said, I didn't 16 even know George at the time, so I mean, my 17 contribution is according to what George told me -- is 18 that Mifsud was acting very big, saying that he had a 19 lot of -- I mean he said he had a lot of connection to 20 Russia, and that he could help organize a meeting 21 between Trump and Putin, so he could be the middleman 22 for this introduction to give him access. 99 So George was very enthusiastic, because of 1 2 course he wanted to impress, as a young -- you know, 3 when you work in politics, you want to do your best to 4 impress your boss. 5 the Egyptian president successfully, he tried to do 6 with Putin unsuccessfully through Mifsud. MR. SCHIFF: 7 8 And I think, as he tried to do with And so, was this discussed at their first meeting? MS. MANGIANTE: 9 I don't know. 10 "don't know". 11 will be better placed to answer those questions, 12 because I don't know the chronology. 13 that the first introduction was about -- so I know -- I 14 mean, what is -- the nature of the relationship can 15 be -- 16 I don't know. That is a MR. SCHIFF: I can't -- I think George I can tell you Is it accurate to say, though, 17 that the professor had an interest in your husband 18 because of his soon-to-be connection with the Trump 19 campaign, and your husband had an interest in Mifsud 20 because of his claimed contacts with Russia? 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 MR. SCHIFF: Yeah, I think it is correct. Mr. Quigley? 100 MR. QUIGLEY: 1 Did George tell you he 2 communicated back with the Trump campaign after the 3 first meeting with the professor? 4 MS. MANGIANTE: 5 MR. QUIGLEY: Sorry, can I -Did your husband tell you that 6 he communicated back to the Trump campaign after his 7 first meeting with the professor? MS. MANGIANTE: 8 9 No. He always told me this is an information he is discussing with the FBI, and is 10 not even communicating that to me, because I could -- 11 it is very confidential. MR. QUIGLEY: 12 13 anybody -MS. MANGIANTE: 14 15 this question. 18 I don't -- I can't answer Sorry. MR. QUIGLEY: 16 17 So -- but he didn't talk with Because you don't know, or because -MS. MANGIANTE: Because George would simply 19 not talk to me about that, because it is part of his 20 cooperation with the FBI. 21 22 MR. SCHIFF: So in terms of questions about your husband's interactions with Mr. Mifsud and with 101 1 the Trump campaign, those are issues that you have 2 either been asked by your husband or the special 3 counsel asked your husband not to share information on? 4 MS. MANGIANTE: I think it is I don't know 5 who told what, but definitely -- I mean I don't know. 6 George, every time I -- I mean I prefer not to answer 7 those questions, because I don't know. 8 9 And I know this is a really sensitive topic about his cooperation with the FBI, so he would tell 10 me, "I don't remember" to me, honestly. 11 me, "I don't remember." 12 13 14 MR. SCHIFF: He would tell That is -We will go through the chronology, and -MS. MANGIANTE: He always told me, "I never 15 saw an email. 16 a meeting with -- between Putin and Trump." 17 what he would tell me. 18 What I was trying to do was to organize He would say, "I don't recall," you know, 19 ever had an interest in those -- this gossip 20 conversation about emails. 21 22 That is As far as I read from these emails, there are many emails in which he tries to set up a meeting with 102 1 Putin, but I never seen an email in which he says, oh, 2 I have somebody offering any emails on Hillary Clinton. MR. SCHIFF: 3 So your husband has discussed 4 with you the conversation he had with Mifsud over the 5 emails? 6 MS. MANGIANTE: 7 MR. SCHIFF: 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 9 MR. SCHIFF: Yes, he did. Okay. Yes, he did. Okay. 10 into that in detail. 11 with the chronological order? But why don't we try to stick MR. QUIGLEY: 12 Well, we will want to get So my question -- I want to 13 make sure we are on the same page of what you don't 14 want to talk about -- was after the first meeting with 15 the professor, did he communicate with the Trump 16 campaign about that meeting? MS. MANGIANTE: 17 18 19 I don't know. I really don't know. MR. QUIGLEY: You don't know? Okay. Are you 20 aware of anyone on the Trump campaign telling your 21 husband to stop communications, or to continue the 22 communications with the professor? 103 MS. MANGIANTE: 1 This is -- I don't think 2 anyone -- I mean, as far as I read from the emails, I 3 don't think they ever stopped them. 4 never take an initiative, as I said, unauthorized. 5 never did anything which -- when I say that I mean he 6 never meant to do anything illegal. 7 don't know if the perception of the campaign -MR. QUIGLEY: 8 9 not. I think it would He And probably -- I I am not suggesting legality or I am just asking if -- first, if your husband 10 communicated with the campaign after the first meeting 11 with -- 12 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 MR. QUIGLEY: I don't -And then second, whether the 14 Trump campaign encouraged or discouraged those 15 meetings. 16 MS. MANGIANTE: 17 MR. QUIGLEY: 18 MS. MANGIANTE: As I said, I don't know. Okay. And I just say I don' t know 19 if the Trump campaign encouraged or discouraged. I 20 didn't know George at the time. 21 he would not do anything without a blessing from the 22 campaign. But my feeling is that 104 MR. QUIGLEY: 1 2 Well, did your husband explain to you how he became involved with the Trump campaign? MS. MANGIANTE: 3 Yes, he told me it was 4 working for the campaign of Ben Carson, and then 5 probably through those night work -- he reached out, 6 again, through LinkedIn, probably, to somebody -- a 7 higher official on the campaign, saying he was 8 interested to work for the campaign. 9 lucky. MR. QUIGLEY: 10 And then he was On March of -- March 21st of 11 2016, then-candidate Trump announced his national 12 security team. 13 table you are familiar with, with George, among many 14 others. 15 Papadopoulos, "He is an energy and oil consultant, 16 excellent guy." 17 And we have the photograph and the At the time candidate Trump said of Mr. According to press reports, a Greek 18 journalist in touch with George stated that he -- that 19 George told the -- that the President had personally 20 phoned him and asked him to join the campaign. 21 George tell you that that was accurate? 22 MS. MANGIANTE: Did I didn't even know about this 105 1 article. MR. QUIGLEY: 2 Okay, but did George tell you 3 that the candidate called him to ask him to become 4 involved with the campaign? MS. MANGIANTE: 5 No, George told me it was 6 reaching out to officials to join the campaign. 7 told me that he was trying to do -- to join the 8 campaign. He never told me the other way around. MR. QUIGLEY: 9 He Did he say that he had talked 10 to the candidate before he went to that meeting with 11 the table, and so forth, with the other -- 12 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 MR. QUIGLEY: 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 don't know. 17 me that. 19 20 21 22 Did George tell you that candidate Trump -- did candidate Trump ever call him? 15 18 Sorry, I didn't understand. No, he never told me -- I He never told me that, no. He never told Actually, I don't know this article, I would be interested to read it. MR. SWALWELL: Has George ever discussed a conversation he has had with Donald Trump? MS. MANGIANTE: No, I don't think it -- I 106 1 mean he said only once to me that the first time he met 2 with Trump -- I don't even remember under which 3 circumstances he -- Trump was very nice to him, and, 4 you know, it was very positive. MR. SWALWELL: 5 6 Do you know if they ever talked on the phone? 7 MS. MANGIANTE: 8 MR. SWALWELL: 9 and George ever talk on the phone? 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. SWALWELL: 12 MS. MANGIANTE: Talking to -Do you know if Donald Trump I don't think so, actually. Okay. I think it was more in touch 13 with the -- while he was in London, I think he was -- 14 first of all, George was in London at the time, and was 15 coordinating with the -- I think with other officials 16 in the campaign. 17 call. 18 talking to him on the phone. That is why I said he had -- he would But I don't think -- he never told me he was 19 MR. SWALWELL: 20 MS. MANGIANTE: He never -- Do you -I mean I don't recall him 21 ever telling me that he would talk with Trump on the 22 phone. 107 MR. SWALWELL: 1 And, to your knowledge, George 2 has only met Donald Trump once? 3 you believe he has met him? MS. MANGIANTE: 4 5 Or how many times do I think probably a couple of times, but I don't remember. 6 MR. SWALWELL: 7 MS. MANGIANTE: What makes you think that? Because once I asked him how 8 many times did you meet with Trump, and he would say 9 not much, really. So he just mentioned one meeting. 10 But then I suppose that he -- also the big, famous 11 picture table. 12 times. 13 So must be, I don't know, a couple of MR. SWALWELL: The one meeting that he 14 described meeting him at, was that the March 30, 2016 15 meeting that -- the big picture meeting? 16 MS. MANGIANTE: No, I think it was referring 17 to another meeting at the beginning, when they -- 18 introduced himself first to Trump. 19 was the same day. 20 I don't know if it I don't think so. But we really didn't talk about -- much about 21 his meeting with Trump. 22 Trump many times. So I don't think he really met I don't -- this is my -- 108 1 2 MR. SWALWELL: talking to Hope Hicks? 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 MR. SWALWELL: 5 6 And when did he first start Excuse me? When did he first start talking to Hope Hicks? MS. MANGIANTE: I don't know. I just know he 7 was in touch with her while -- for example, in -- okay, 8 from London, you know, just like I was saying, oh, did 9 you -- were you in touch with Hope Hicks, and he said, 10 "Yes, I was in touch with her." 11 didn't dig into this interaction with Trump or, you 12 know -- just like coordinating things. 13 That is all. I mean I I remember probably when -- he mentioned his 14 article, London -- Times of London would say that he 15 asked the -- Cameron to apologize for saying Trump -- I 16 don't know, insulted Trump, and George -- and then this 17 article appeared, and then it caused problems in the 18 campaign, and so on that occasion I think he talked 19 with Hope Hicks. 20 around the conversation I had with him. 21 22 That is what my recollection of -- MR. SWALWELL: Do you know who he was in contact with in the early stages, from the time that he 109 1 joined the campaign to having the meeting with -- the 2 first meeting with the professor, and then leading up 3 to that March 30 meeting at the Trump Hotel? 4 know which Trump campaign individuals he was talking 5 to? MS. MANGIANTE: 6 Do you I wouldn't have much accurate 7 knowledge of his work at the time. 8 recollect what I did myself, so I don't know about 9 George. 10 And I barely What I know is that in that -- it was -- 11 while he was working the campaign he would refer to 12 high officials in the campaign. 13 Michael Flynn via email, because he was based in 14 London, so he was definitely in touch with high 15 officials in the campaign. 16 MR. SWALWELL: I saw Steve Bannon, That is all I know. Did the professor ever talk to 17 you about George's early days on the campaign, and the 18 professor's meeting with George? 19 MS. MANGIANTE: The professor never talked 20 with me about George at all, because the time -- I 21 might have -- I started to work for the London Centre I 22 didn't even know George. So we connected much later. 110 MR. SWALWELL: 1 Did the professor ever talk to 2 you about -- because you were working -- you started 3 working for him right as the campaign was reaching 4 election day. 5 about the American election going on? Did you and the professor ever talk 6 MS. MANGIANTE: 7 MR. SWALWELL: 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 9 context. Yes, we did. Okay. Did the -- I remember Naji Idris in this This is even before George reached out to me 10 through LinkedIn. He told me someone who used to work 11 for us is now advising the campaign. 12 remember -- the only reference to George. That is -- I And I remember the professor, while we were 13 14 talking about American campaign, I was giving my point 15 of view. 16 politics. He said, "Never express your point of view in That is rule number one." 17 MR. QUIGLEY: 18 MS. MANGIANTE: What was that? That is the only thing said 19 -- the professor to me. 20 with Naji Idris, and we were talking about the American 21 election. 22 MR. SWALWELL: We were having lunch in London And Mr. Idris, when he said 111 1 that someone worked for us who was connected to the 2 campaign, did he name George, or did he just -- 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 MR. SWALWELL: 5 MS. MANGIANTE: 6 MR. SWALWELL: 7 MR. QUIGLEY: No, he didn't --- give that description? He didn't name George, no. Okay. Did George talk to you about 8 what he had hoped to accomplish in the campaign, 9 besides setting up the meeting between candidate Trump 10 11 and President Putin? MS. MANGIANTE: Well, actually, he told me 12 that -- first of all, as a foreign policy advisor, was 13 trying to do the same job with other foreign leaders. 14 So he successfully organized a meeting with Sisi in 15 Egypt, and was trying to develop contacts with the 16 Japanese government, British governments. 17 I see that you received those -- the 18 addressed to him letter of congratulation when Trump 19 won the election. 20 small part of his contribution to the -- it was not his 21 main focus. 22 So Russia is really a small, small, That is something I would like to share with 112 1 you is also that George told me that during his 2 interview with the FBI he volunteered Mifsud to the 3 FBI. 4 anything about -- did you ever hear about Russia," 5 whatever, "Did you have any contact with Russia," he 6 has been actually in -- he mentioned this person who is 7 a Maltese professor, so he is not even Russian 8 professor, who said -- alleged to have Russia 9 connection that George wanted to use to organize a So he was the -- when the FBI asked, "Do you know 10 meeting. 11 mentioning also dirt on Hillary Clinton. MR. QUIGLEY: 12 13 And then he said to the FBI, he -- and he was Who was mentioning the dirt on Hillary -MS. MANGIANTE: 14 The professor was also 15 mentioning to me these emails. 16 telling those information to the FBI, thinking to do 17 something for, you know, just being as transparent as 18 he could. MR. SCHIFF: 19 20 misheard. 21 you -- 22 So it was George I am sorry, but I may have The professor mentioned emails to you, or MS. MANGIANTE: No, no, no. 113 1 2 3 MR. SCHIFF: -- are recollecting what George had said about the professor's conversation with him? MS. MANGIANTE: No, I am saying -- no, no. 4 The professor never mentioned anything to me. 5 -- I said that George gave to the FBI the information 6 that the Professor Mifsud was talking to him about 7 those emails. 8 MR. SCHIFF: 9 MS. MANGIANTE: 10 It was Yes, okay. MR. SCHIFF: Not the other way around. I think we should probably try 11 to move through the outline with more alacrity, because 12 we may be called away. 13 schedule is, but -- what is that? 14 MR. HECK: 15 MR. SCHIFF: 16 MR. HECK: 17 Okay. Can I -Go ahead. Can I go to the beginning of this with a real brief question? 18 MR. SCHIFF: 19 MR. HECK: 20 I don't know what the vote Yes, of course. And I had to step out, and I a m having a hard time hearing. 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 MR. HECK: Sorry. So I apologize if you have 114 1 clarified this -MS. MANGIANTE: 2 3 much as I can. MR. HECK: 4 5 I just want to quickly understand. And thanks for being here, by the way. 6 MS. MANGIANTE: 7 MR. HECK: 8 You are welcome. I thought I heard you continually refer to Mr. Roh's wife as a Russian princess. MS. MANGIANTE: 9 MR. HECK: 10 11 description of that? 12 gone. 13 I tried to raise my voice as Yeah. Did he give you any more I thought the Czar age was long What do you mean by princess? MS. MANGIANTE: It is the way she is -- I 14 think she is coming from the -- yeah, let's say the 15 Czar family descendent. 16 17 18 19 MR. HECK: Did he ever suggest a name, a Russian name? MS. MANGIANTE: you can Google her, Olga Roh. 20 MR. HECK: 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 I don't know her name, but Pardon? I don't know her surname, but you can Google this person. She is Olga Roh. 115 1 2 MR. HECK: And it is your impression -- or he attempted to convey to you -- 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 MR. HECK: 5 MS. MANGIANTE: 6 -- that -- MR. HECK: 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 10 11 Sorry. This information, it was -- came from my own research, never -- 7 9 No, that is not -- Okay. -- Mifsud or anybody else told me about -MR. HECK: And did your own research suggest that this was a source of considerable wealth? 12 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 MR. HECK: 14 MR. SWALWELL: Yes. Okay, thank you. On March 23rd, 2016 George 15 emailed Carter Page and copied Sam Clovis and others. 16 Are you familiar with that email? 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 18 MR. SWALWELL: No. He included a link in that 19 email to an interview he had given by -- about his 20 thoughts on ISIS, the Kurds, and radical Islam. 21 two days after Donald Trump announced his foreign 22 policy team. It is 116 Did George express that he was a substantive 1 2 voice on the foreign policy team? 3 to the team that was being received at the highest 4 levels? MS. MANGIANTE: 5 Was he giving advice I don't know precisely with 6 respect to this specific email you are talking about, 7 because I don't know this email. 8 understanding is that he was heard. MR. SWALWELL: 9 Okay. But yes, my Now we have talked a 10 little bit about the meeting with who is referred to as 11 Olga Polonskya. 12 George and the professor in London. 13 tell you about that meeting? 14 professor brought who he described as Putin's niece. And that was on March 24th, 2016, with MS. MANGIANTE: 15 What did George That is where the He was -- he simply told me 16 that he was under the impression she was someone 17 important, because of the introduction that Mifsud 18 made. 19 20 That is all. MR. SWALWELL: Did George believe her to be Putin's niece at the time? 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 MR. SWALWELL: I think yes. Okay. And did -- 117 1 MS. MANGIANTE: 2 MR. SWALWELL: I think. And did George hope to be 3 connected to President Putin to connect President Putin 4 to candidate Trump? MS. MANGIANTE: 5 6 He wanted to. That is what he wanted to do. MR. SWALWELL: 7 Did George have, like, a 8 directive from anyone on the campaign to make this 9 connection, or was this -- 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. SWALWELL: 12 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 14 I don't know. -- just George's idea? I don't know. I really don't know. MR. SWALWELL: Did George ever talk about 15 anyone else on the campaign wanting to connect Donald 16 Trump and Vladimir Putin? 17 about that? 18 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 MR. SWALWELL: Has he ever talked to you I don't know. Well, do you think George was 20 the only one on the campaign who was interested in 21 connecting Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin? 22 MS. MANGIANTE: I don't know anybody else in 118 1 the campaign, so -MR. SCHIFF: 2 Let me just ask, as well. It 3 looks like this was the second meeting between your 4 husband and the professor. 5 second meeting with somebody he claims is Putin's 6 niece. And he shows up at the Do you know why -- did George tell you why 7 8 the professor brought her, why he wanted to introduce 9 your husband to this Russian woman? Had they discussed 10 Russia in the first meeting, or what accounts for her 11 being brought to the second meeting? MS. MANGIANTE: 12 I can't be so accurate for 13 the second meeting, I really don't know. When you 14 asked me what George talked about, this person, he 15 thought it was an important contact to help having 16 access to the network line to organize a meeting with 17 -- between Trump and Putin. He thought that Mifsud was bringing her to 18 19 the meeting to -- you know, to make an introduction 20 important, likely to give him the access to -- like 21 make this -- you know, she can help because she is high 22 level. That is what he told me. 119 1 And but then he told me later on, "While I 2 was attempting to organize this meeting, while I was 3 attempting to have access to," you know, people capable 4 to organize this meeting, "I realize that they were 5 nobody." 6 don't know. 7 That is what his guess -- he started to guess 8 everything. And she might have been Mifsud's mistress, I It was also talking like that, you know. MR. SCHIFF: 9 But did the -- did George and 10 the professor discuss Russia in their first meeting? 11 Is that why he would bring this woman to the second 12 meeting? 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SCHIFF: 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SCHIFF: I don't know. Or -This I don't know. Do you know whether this was the 17 professor's initiative to bring a Russian to the second 18 meeting? 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SCHIFF: 21 MR. SWALWELL: 22 I honestly can't tell. Okay, thank you. Did George get contact information from this Russian woman at that meeting? 120 1 Did they exchange -MR. SCHIFF: 2 Yes, they -- I think they were 3 communicating via Skype or email. 4 I don't know Skype, but maybe email. 5 Definitely she -- I think they exchanged contact. MR. SWALWELL: 6 7 I don't know. Did George ever talk about his relationship with Sam Clovis? MS. MANGIANTE: 8 9 I think they were. Yeah, he mentioned that he probably asked Sam Clovis to join the campaign. I 10 don't know if he reached out to Sam Clovis through 11 LinkedIn. 12 MR. SWALWELL: Did he talk about any 13 conversations he had, or emails he had with Sam Clovis 14 after the meeting with the professor and Olga? 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SWALWELL: No, he didn't. Okay. Now, did George mention 17 going to the March 31st meeting at the Trump Hotel with 18 candidate Trump? 19 George said during that meeting, if -- Did George ever talk about what 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. SWALWELL: 22 No. Have you heard reports that George offered at that meeting to connect Donald Trump 121 1 and Vladimir Putin? MS. MANGIANTE: 2 3 but -MR. SWALWELL: 4 5 It was -- yeah, I heard it, Did you ever ask George if he said that? MS. MANGIANTE: 6 7 I don't remember. 8 don't remember right now. We might have discussed it, but I MR. SWALWELL: 9 He said -- I mean, honestly, Did George ever talk about to 10 you whether candidate Trump discussed candidate Trump's 11 views about Russia at that March 31st meeting? MS. MANGIANTE: 12 I don't know if there was a 13 March 31st, but definitely George's understanding was 14 that improving relation with countries was important 15 thing for Trump, including Russia. 16 MR. SWALWELL: Did George ever talk to Donald 17 Trump directly about improving the relations with 18 Russia? MS. MANGIANTE: 19 I don't know, I really don't 20 know. But George was under the impression doing 21 something good, trying to organize a meeting. 22 was absolutely nothing illegal in trying to -- he was a There 122 1 foreign policy advisor. I mean at least in his 2 perception -- my perception, too. MR. SWALWELL: 3 Did George ever tell you that 4 Jeff Sessions shot down George's idea at that March 5 31st meeting to connect Donald Trump and Vladimir 6 Putin? MS. MANGIANTE: 7 I think it would be 8 interesting to address to him directly those questions, 9 because I am really not sure to be accurate enough. 10 don't know. 12 My -- MR. SWALWELL: 11 I Do you remember when the attorney general -MS. MANGIANTE: 13 My idea, what is my idea, is 14 that if it was shot down they would not go through 15 this -- 16 MR. SWALWELL: Yes. 17 MS. MANGIANTE: That is my assumption. But I 18 don't know, I don't recall George telling me explicitly 19 I -- he did not do that or he did do that. 20 confusing also for me. 21 information that I am not sure of. 22 MR. SWALWELL: It is very I don't want to give So, Ms. Mangiante, it is fair 123 1 to say that, since George's cooperation agreement and 2 his arrest, your lives have changed. 3 in the news now, and you read about George. 4 remember when Attorney General Sessions gave an 5 interview about that meeting at the Trump Hotel? 6 you remember when he said that -- 7 MS. MANGIANTE: 8 MR. SWALWELL: 9 MS. MANGIANTE: meeting? MR. SWALWELL: 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SWALWELL: Yeah. -- he remembers George I mean he was -- which So after George's arrest -Yes. -- do you remember -- it was in the public discussion and on the news. MS. MANGIANTE: 16 17 Do I mean which interview you are talking about? 12 15 Do you speaking up? 10 11 You see your name Yes. If Jeff Sessions shot him down. 18 MR. SWALWELL: 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SWALWELL: Yes. One of -And my question for you is, 21 you know, you are seeing your family now on TV, your 22 fiance at the time is on TV. 124 1 MS. MANGIANTE: 2 MR. SWALWELL: Yes. The Attorney General of the 3 United States is saying publicly that your fiancé 4 recommended something and that the attorney general 5 shot it down. There must have been a reaction in your home 6 7 about, you know, hey, George, did this really happen, 8 or is he telling the truth. 9 occurred? 10 MS. MANGIANTE: What happened when that Well, of course the -- one of 11 the reasons why I finally accepted an interview, first 12 with ABC News, the time I was invited -- say okay, 13 first of all, that is not true, he had no contact with 14 the high official in the Russian campaign because I 15 have seen the campaign distancing them from George. 16 And then I delivered another message, which 17 is it will never do a push on anything without 18 authorization from the campaign. 19 Now I can't recall exactly the conversation 20 we had when this piece of news was heard. That is -- I 21 can tell you that definitely my understanding is that 22 he would never do anything if he was shot down. 125 MR. SWALWELL: 1 So your reading of George's 2 reaction when the attorney general said that was that 3 that was not -- 4 MS. MANGIANTE: 5 MR. SWALWELL: 6 7 First of all --- what the attorney general said. MS. MANGIANTE: -- I think it was like why 8 are we talking about arranging a meeting with Putin, 9 between Putin and Trump, when there is nothing illegal, 10 unlawful, trying to attempt this. 11 campaign stop me? 12 MR. SWALWELL: Okay. So why would the According to the 13 statement of the offense for George, in early April 14 2016 George sent multiple emails to other members of 15 the campaign's foreign policy team about his contacts 16 with the Russians. 17 2016 communications between George and the campaign 18 about ongoing contacts with the Russians? Are you familiar with any April 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SWALWELL: No. So this -- just so we are 21 clear on the timeline, this is now after the attorney 22 general allegedly shut George down when he suggested 126 1 connecting Donald Trump and Putin. 2 MS. MANGIANTE: 3 MR. SWALWELL: That is what he said. Right. And so I guess what 4 you are telling us is that George wouldn't -- based on 5 your conversations with George, he would not have 6 proceeded to develop further relations with the 7 Russians if he felt -- 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 9 MR. SWALWELL: -- he shouldn't be doing -- MS. MANGIANTE: 10 Based -- Based on my understanding of 11 his work, definitely he would not do that. 12 said, he was also under the -- he was confident he was 13 doing something good, because improving relation with 14 Russia was one of the goal of campaign. MR. SWALWELL: 15 And as I And on April 10th George 16 emails Olga and suggests setting up a potential foreign 17 policy trip to Russia. 18 MR. SCHIFF: 19 MR. SWALWELL: 20 MR. SCHIFF: 21 22 Olga actually -Before you get into that -Yes. -- if I could just clarify a bit. If I understood what you were saying 127 1 correctly, your understanding is George wouldn't be 2 pursuing this meeting with Putin if the campaign had 3 communicated to him that they didn't want to have 4 him -MS. MANGIANTE: 5 6 Exactly. This is what I said, yes. 7 MR. SCHIFF: That is correct? 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 9 MR. SCHIFF: Yes. And so, if he was pursuing this, 10 this was both with the knowledge of the campaign, 11 people higher up in the campaign, and with their 12 blessing. 13 MS. MANGIANTE: That is my assumption. As I 14 said, I can't recall every conversation I had with 15 George when a piece of news came out. 16 to refer my understanding as -- you know, I don't want 17 to give inaccurate details about timing and 18 conversation or what he told me. 19 understanding based on my experience of this situation. 20 MR. SCHIFF: I am just here But this is my And in this early period, April 21 2016, is George communicating by email with the 22 campaign to keep them in the loop about his discussions 128 1 with the professor, his meetings with Putin's niece? 2 To your knowledge, is George communicating this with 3 the campaign? MS. MANGIANTE: 4 I don't know, because I 5 didn't read all his emails. 6 think the prosecutors have those emails. MR. SCHIFF: 7 But I don't know if -- I And do you know who George's 8 immediate supervisors were on the campaign? 9 he be keeping in communication with about his efforts 10 Who would to establish a relationship with the Russians? MS. MANGIANTE: 11 Immediate supervisor? 12 don't know. 13 have seen myself a few communication, random 14 communication to Steve Bannon, Michael Flynn. 15 is -- I can say that, going through his iPad, I MR. SCHIFF: 16 I That Steve Bannon and Michael Flynn? 17 To your knowledge, did he also communicate with Sam 18 Clovis? MS. MANGIANTE: 19 I think he did, but I don't 20 remember. I didn't go through all his emails. But 21 that -- his name was in contact with officials in the 22 campaign. And as I said, being based in London, most 129 1 of his communication were -- happened via email. 2 guess the prosecutor have full access to all this. MR. SWALWELL: 3 So I Are you -- has George ever 4 talked to you about emailing with the Russian Ministry 5 of Foreign Affairs connection, that -- the person from 6 the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs based in 7 London? MS. MANGIANTE: 8 9 I remember George told me he wanted -- that Mifsud failed to introduce to him, 10 basically, anyone real advantage. 11 introduced to was this fake Russian -- Putin's niece. 12 He tried to attempt to arrange a meeting with the 13 ambassador in London he told me, but that never 14 happened. 15 ambassador, Russian ambassador in London. 16 The only people he He could not even introduce to him the And then he mentioned to me later on that -- 17 introduced to him a think tank Russian person, was 18 holding a think tank. 19 MR. SWALWELL: And are you familiar with any 20 Skyping -- Skype conversations that George was having 21 in April 2016 to lay the "groundwork" for a potential 22 meeting between the campaign and Russian government 130 1 officials, Skype conversations between George and a 2 Russian MFA connection? MS. MANGIANTE: 3 I -- as far as I know, George 4 didn't have any contact with the Russian -- with 5 officials, whatsoever, zero. 6 me. 7 connection he developed through Mifsud are his Russian 8 Putin niece and another person that I didn't even know 9 existed until probably a few months ago, is this So that is what he told And it is -- as I said, the only Russian 10 Russian guy -- I can't even remember his name -- from a 11 think tank. MR. SWALWELL: 12 13 George told you about this Russian guy? MS. MANGIANTE: 14 No, I think it is written 15 everywhere. He told me that -- I mean he told me, "I 16 didn't really have any connection to Russians." 17 mean -- 18 MR. SWALWELL: 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 21 22 Okay. I So just so I can -- Mifsud sold a lot of contacts that he could not provide. MR. SWALWELL: And just so we are clear, I am referring to George's statement of the offense, where 131 1 Mifsud introduced George over email to an individual in 2 Moscow who told George that this individual had 3 connections to the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. 4 Did you -- you don't recall that? 5 6 7 MS. MANGIANTE: Sorry. This individual in Moscow, what -- can you say it again, just -MR. SWALWELL: Yes. According to the 8 statement of the offense, on April 18, 2016 the 9 professor introduced George to an individual in Moscow 10 who told George he had connections to the Russian 11 Ministry of Foreign Affairs. 12 13 14 MS. MANGIANTE: Is that the think tank person, maybe? MR. SWALWELL: Well, in the statement of the 15 offense he is referred to as the Russian MFA 16 connection, and that George had several conversations 17 over Skype. 18 MS. MANGIANTE: I think it is exactly, yeah. 19 I asked George, after all. I remember even the FBI 20 asked me about this person I didn't know at the time. 21 I think it is -- you are talking about this -- George 22 told me this think tank person. 132 MR. SWALWELL: 1 2 And so this is now clearly -- 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 MR. SWALWELL: 5 MS. MANGIANTE: 6 Okay. Yeah, that is --- two weeks after -And it is not an official, it is not a Russian official, it is a Russian national. MR. SWALWELL: 7 Are you aware of any meetings 8 between George and the Russian ambassador to the United 9 Kingdom? MS. MANGIANTE: 10 No, never happened. He told 11 me it never happened, even though in email I read it 12 said I met the Russian ambassador. 13 happened. 14 MR. SWALWELL: Actually, it never So on April 25th, 2016, 15 according to the state of the offense, nearly one month 16 after Attorney General Sessions allegedly told George 17 not to work on the Putin-Trump meeting, George emails a 18 senior policy advisor saying the Russian government has 19 an open invitation by Putin for Mr. Trump to meet him 20 when he is ready. 21 Did George ever talk to you about -- 22 MS. MANGIANTE: Yeah. 133 1 MR. SWALWELL: 2 MS. MANGIANTE: -- that arrangement? It was -- no, he was trying 3 to set up a meeting. Yes, he told me he tried his best 4 to set up a meeting with -- between Trump and Putin. MR. SWALWELL: 5 And he believed, even after 6 the attorney general allegedly said this on April 25th, 7 2016, that it was okay to try and make that 8 arrangement? MS. MANGIANTE: 9 MR. SWALWELL: 10 I -Let me rephrase that. So 11 April -- as late as April 25th, 2016 George still 12 believed that he should set up a meeting between Trump 13 and Putin. MS. MANGIANTE: 14 Well, you are asking me for 15 dates. 16 didn't even know George. 17 only answer those questions accurately. 18 And, as I said, all events that happened when I MR. SWALWELL: So I think this -- he can The email also -- George also 19 suggested in the email that the government speak in 20 neutral cities. 21 that they speak in a neutral city? 22 Do you know why George was proposing MS. MANGIANTE: I don't know why he writes 134 1 these kind of emails. I don't know. 2 quoting what people said. 3 don't know. 4 don't know. Maybe he was Like to be out of the -- I Neutral cities means not Russia, not -- I 5 (Pause.) 6 MR. SCHIFF: According to the statement of 7 offense, on April 26th, 2016 George met with Professor 8 Mifsud for breakfast at a London hotel, and it was at 9 that meeting that Mifsud told your husband that he had 10 just returned from a trip to Moscow, where he met with 11 high-level government officials, and learned that the 12 Russians had obtained dirt on then-candidate Clinton. According to the statement of the offense, 13 14 Mifsud told Papadopoulos -- as your husband later 15 described to the FBI, "They, the Russians, have dirt on 16 her. 17 thousands of emails." Russians had emails of Clinton. They have 18 When did you first learn of this overture by 19 Professor Mifsud to George, this discussion of the all 20 the Clinton emails? 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 MR. SCHIFF: When did I learn? Yes. 135 1 MS. MANGIANTE: 2 me before all the scandal came out. MR. SCHIFF: 3 4 George didn't mention that to So when would you have learned about that, that meeting, that discussion? MS. MANGIANTE: 5 I think I was in his lawyer's 6 office while he was signing the agreements. I think I 7 told -- I asked him -- because at the time I was in New 8 York, and I said I will tell you -- I was guessing what 9 is going on with you, what is this -- what is 10 happening, and then he said, "I don't know what is 11 going on. 12 his plea agreement when I learned about exactly the 13 fact that the Mifsud offered emails. 14 George didn't really realize what was going on until 15 the plea agreement, until the -- he negotiated with the 16 FBI. 17 18 19 20 I was approached" -- I think it was close to MR. SCHIFF: I think even And what did he tell you about what Mifsud told him regarding the emails? MS. MANGIANTE: Yeah, was mentioning to George -- who the -- "they," when you say "they" -- 21 MR. SCHIFF: What did George tell you that -- 22 MS. MANGIANTE: Yeah, George -- 136 MR. SCHIFF: 1 2 3 -- Mifsud told him about the emails? MS. MANGIANTE: Yeah, George told me -- yeah, 4 Mifsud -- if I can report -- that looks like a case -- 5 it is like a subject to talk about, emails, dirt on -- 6 Russians have thousands of emails on Hillary Clinton. 7 He told me that he had a connection to Russia. 8 was talking like on -- they informally, casually, 9 randomly told me was not in the context of serious, But he 10 dramatic disclosure of something that, you know, was 11 likely to be awful, the news. 12 George also said today who knows what he was 13 trying to do, if he was -- what was real intention. 14 When we learned that he was affiliated actually with -- 15 if he was simply talking, was -- if he -- I mean why 16 would he talk about that to somebody? 17 person reacts? 18 To see how this I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: You mentioned I think earlier 19 that -- in characterizing this, that it came across as 20 gossip, this was something that was in the public -- 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 MR. SCHIFF: Domain. -- domain. But at this time in 137 1 April of 2016 it was actually not in the public domain. 2 MS. MANGIANTE: 3 MR. SCHIFF: No. It was not? They -- the first release 4 of the emails didn't take place until June, July, 5 months later. MS. MANGIANTE: 6 7 the emails of Hillary Clinton or the DNC emails? MR. SCHIFF: 8 9 Well, either Clinton or DNC emails. 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. SCHIFF: 12 So -- released until the summer. MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SCHIFF: 16 Okay, both of them. Neither of those began to be 13 15 Sorry, we are talking about Okay. So at this point it wasn't public information. MS. MANGIANTE: Because I remember there were 17 a lot of talk about this. 18 exactly when, but I remember there were talking over 19 the world about those things. 20 - okay, so I take note. 21 22 MR. SCHIFF: Now I can't recollect Now you are telling me - Well, I just want to make sure that we have the chronology correct. So this is taking 138 1 place in April of 2016, when there is no public 2 information that Hillary Clinton or the DNC emails may 3 be in the possession of the Russians. Your husband described this as the professor 4 5 relating it in a casual way? MS. MANGIANTE: 6 7 it to me. MR. SCHIFF: 8 9 Yes, that is how he des cribed But did your husband tell you that the professor had informed him prior to revealing 10 that the Russians had these emails, that he had just 11 come from a trip to Russia, and learned this from 12 Russian government officials? MS. MANGIANTE: 13 No. I think he was talking 14 about -- I mean he told me it was randomly -- I don't 15 know -- I should read again the legal paper. 16 it was mentioning those emails. 17 a lot of emails -- 18 MR. SCHIFF: 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 21 22 I think The Russians, there is Yes, I mean -I mean, I don't -- sorry, you can -MR. SCHIFF: Yes. No, I -- it is less important what you remember from the written statement 139 1 of the offense, because we can read that. 2 more important what your husband told you about it at 3 the time he first relayed these facts to you. 4 But it is And so, do you remember your husband telling 5 you that the professor had informed him that he had 6 just come back from Moscow? 7 MS. MANGIANTE: I don't remember. He is -- 8 him telling me that. 9 was acting like -- talking about this -- but he never 10 11 12 13 I remember George telling me he gave much importance to that. It is -- sorry, you are telling me that this -- those information were in the public domain when? MR. SCHIFF: Well, the emails didn't start to 14 become the subject of discussion by their release until 15 the summer. 16 until July of 2016 that candidate Trump said publicly, 17 "Hey, Russians, if you are listening, hack Hillary 18 Clinton's emails." And just to put in context, it wasn't 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SCHIFF: Yes, I remember. So what -- as specifically as 21 you can recall, what has your husband told you about 22 the specifics of what Mr. Mifsud said about the emails? 140 MS. MANGIANTE: 1 The -- is this -- that he 2 told me he was not referring to the DNC email, he was 3 talking about thousands of dirt emails, dirt on Hillary 4 Clinton, probably was referring to -- the email that 5 Hillary Clinton deleted? 6 MR. SCHIFF: I -- don't ask -- 7 MS. MANGIANTE: No, I am sorry, okay. So I 8 don't ask you. What he told me is that he didn't give 9 much importance, but he thought it was very weird, that 10 a professor, this professor who barely knew him and -- 11 would talk about these emails. 12 that -- because I said, "Did he show you an email, did 13 he offer you to give you any emails?" 14 never. MR. SCHIFF: 15 But he told me also He said no, Now, in the statement of the 16 offense it talks about -- well, let me ask you this 17 way. 18 Russians were prepared to be helpful to the campaign by 19 anonymously releasing these emails? 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. SCHIFF: 22 Did he relate to you information that the No, no. So what, if anything, did he tell you about the emails, as best as you can 141 1 recollect? What has your husband told you about that 2 conversation with Mifsud? MS. MANGIANTE: 3 He really told me when Mifsud 4 started to talk about those emails I didn't give much 5 importance. And, you know, it was like gossip to me. What I gave importance to is the fact that it 6 7 could have Russian connection useful to organize a 8 meeting with Putin. 9 wanted to organize a meeting. George really So it really didn't tell me much about email. 10 11 That was his focus. I would like to tell you more, but really, he didn't. MR. SCHIFF: 12 So George felt that the 13 professor had good enough connections, though, in 14 Russia to arrange a meeting with the President of 15 Russia. 16 MS. MANGIANTE: At first that was his 17 impression. 18 that he wasn't capable to even organize a meeting with 19 the Russian ambassador in London. 20 Then he changed his mind when he realized MR. SCHIFF: But at the time that the -- that 21 Mifsud tells him that the Russians have these emails, 22 and he has just come back from Russia, your husband was 142 1 under the impression that he was well connected enough 2 in Russia to arrange a meeting with Putin? MS. MANGIANTE: 3 Well, it was -- he had this 4 perception, based on what -- how Mifsud introduced 5 himself and his connection to Russia deep into the -- 6 by the conversation about emails. MR. SCHIFF: 7 And at that point, though, in 8 April of 2016, your husband believed that in fact he 9 had these good connections in Russia. MS. MANGIANTE: 10 Yes, he believed -- he said 11 no reason to think he was lying. 12 about his connection to Russia? 13 is a middle-aged person. 14 himself? 15 Why would he lie He is an academic, he Why would he make a fool of Then he -- his idea changed over time. 16 is why he said, "What do you think about it?" 17 ask me, "What do you think about Mifsud?" 18 MR. SCHIFF: That He would And prior to this meeting ha d 19 Mifsud or anyone else suggested to your husband that 20 the Russians might have information that would be 21 useful for him, for the Trump campaign? 22 MS. MANGIANTE: I don't know. 143 MR. SCHIFF: 1 And prior to the meeting had 2 Mifsud given any indication that he had information to 3 convey to your husband from the Russians? 4 MS. MANGIANTE: 5 exactly, to convey to -MR. SCHIFF: 6 Sorry, what do you mean, Did your husband ever tell you 7 that before he met with the professor in which he 8 raised these emails, that the professor was going to 9 share with him information that he had obtained in 10 11 Moscow? MS. MANGIANTE: No, he didn't know that. 12 don't think he knew that. 13 what to expect from this meeting. 14 MR. SCHIFF: He met him, he didn't know So prior to going to the 15 breakfast meeting your husband didn't know what to 16 expect of the meeting. 17 18 MS. MANGIANTE: don't know. I I don't want to answer -- I Because we are talking -- 19 MR. SCHIFF: And it is fine -- 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. SCHIFF: 22 MS. MANGIANTE: My -- If you don't know -Exactly, I said don't know. 144 MR. SCHIFF: 1 2 -- it is best that you tell us that you don't -- 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 MR. SCHIFF: Yes, I don't know. And did he tell you whether -- 5 who else was present at this meeting in which the 6 professor mentioned the dirt and the emails? MS. MANGIANTE: 7 8 know. 9 don't know. I don't know if it is -- which meeting he met, I 10 MR. SCHIFF: 11 MS. MANGIANTE: 12 13 14 Putin's -- no, no, I don't So you don't -Sorry, Putin -- sorry, I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: So you don't know who, if anyone, was -- 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SCHIFF: 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 18 MR. SCHIFF: Who was present? Present. No. No, I don't know. Did your husband ever tell you 19 whether anyone else had raised with him, beside Mifsud, 20 the Russians' possession of these emails? 21 22 MS. MANGIANTE: anybody else. I don't think he mentioned 145 MR. SCHIFF: 1 And who did your husband tell 2 you he communicated this information to on the Trump 3 campaign? 4 MS. MANGIANTE: 5 MR. SCHIFF: I can't answer this question. And when you say can't answer, 6 does that mean that you have been asked not to answer 7 this question? 8 9 MS. MANGIANTE: know, first of all. No, it means that I don't And that is George will not 10 clearly give an answer to me. 11 a straight answer to that. 12 MR. SCHIFF: I mean he never gave me And did you ask him that? When 13 you say he never gave you a straight answer, that 14 suggests that you had asked him, but he wouldn't give 15 you a clear answer to it. 16 MS. MANGIANTE: 17 MR. SCHIFF: 18 19 Yeah. Did he tell you why he didn't want to tell you that? MS. MANGIANTE: He told me that it was object 20 of the investigation and, you know, he said -- you 21 know, sometimes he doesn't recall, really. 22 recall himself. He doesn't It is very difficult sometimes to 146 1 recall exactly -- I said there is no -- as you can read 2 now -- I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: 3 4 Well, I mean, obviously, this is a critical question. MS. MANGIANTE: 5 I know. This is the object 6 of the investigation, and I don't -- I mean I -- all 7 the interview between George and the FBI is about. MR. SCHIFF: 8 9 So I guess my question is when you say you can't say, is this a -MS. MANGIANTE: 10 Sorry, this is probably an 11 English mistake. 12 translation from me to say I would not know. 13 doesn't mean that I am not allowed to say. MR. SCHIFF: 14 15 When I say I can't say, it is Well, that is what I wanted clarification on. MS. MANGIANTE: 16 17 okay. 18 answer. Sorry, it is my English -- It is -- I should think of better English when I 19 MR. SCHIFF: 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. SCHIFF: 22 It Are you -I will say I don't know. Okay. So in terms of who your husband communicated to within the campaign that he had 147 1 been made aware of these emails in Russian possession, 2 you can't tell us because? 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 MR. SCHIFF: Because I don't know. You don't know. And the reason 5 you don't know, despite asking your husband, is that he 6 would not share that information with you because it 7 was the subject of the FBI inquiry? 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 9 sometimes. He would not recall I said this is -- yeah, part he is very 10 careful about, his conversation with the FBI. 11 -- sometimes he would say, "I don't recall." 12 true. That is He told me, "I don't recall." MR. SCHIFF: 13 14 And he But plainly, he didn't want to discuss this with you, for whatever reason. 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SCHIFF: Exactly. Maybe. Maybe. There has been public reporting 17 -- if you can answer this, there has been public 18 reporting that your husband emailed other members of 19 the campaign, including a gentleman named Mashburn -- 20 and I have that name correctly, don't I? 21 Mashburn. 22 John There has been public reporting that he 148 1 emailed John Mashburn and copied other people on the 2 email about this conversation with Mifsud on the 3 emails. 4 others on the campaign, even if he didn't tell you who 5 they were? Did he ever tell you that he had emailed MS. MANGIANTE: 6 No, I -- he didn't tell me 7 anything about that. 8 even know there were -- I mean I didn't do my research 9 well enough. 10 It is a straight no. I didn't even know there were public email in which he is talking about those emails. MR. SCHIFF: 11 Let me be clear. 12 public report that he emailed others. 13 there are public emails. MS. MANGIANTE: 14 15 16 I didn't There is a I am not saying I have never seen this email, though. MR. SCHIFF: But he has never confided in you 17 whether he emailed other people in the campaign or not 18 about the conversation with Mifsud on the emails? 19 MS. MANGIANTE: Well, I remember we were 20 discussing it as -- so there is an email about that, 21 and he said, "I don't recall sending an email. 22 there is an email, it would be up to people to show If 149 1 me," because his memory doesn't remember to send an 2 email. 3 4 5 6 So -MR. SCHIFF: So he has told you that he doesn't recall emailing others on the campaign? MS. MANGIANTE: emails or -- 7 MR. SCHIFF: 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 9 Yes, and he will -- about Let me just -This is about something -- the news a few -- probably two months ago, right? 10 MR. SCHIFF: Yes. 11 MS. MANGIANTE: 12 MR. SCHIFF: Okay. But let me ask this again, just 13 to make sure that -- because I think you started 14 answering before I was finished with the question. 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SCHIFF: I am sorry. Your husband has told you he 17 doesn't recall sending an email to other members of the 18 campaign about his conversation with Mifsud about the 19 Russians having Clinton emails. 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. SCHIFF: 22 MS. MANGIANTE: Yeah. Is that correct? Yes. 150 1 MR. SCHIFF: But as to whether he verbally 2 communicated with other members of the campaign about 3 his discussion with Mifsud on the emails, that he would 4 not discuss with you. 5 6 7 MS. MANGIANTE: He would probably give me the same answer, he doesn't recall. MR. SCHIFF: So your understanding, then, is 8 he doesn't recall either sending an email -- he doesn't 9 recall whether he sent an email or not, and he doesn't 10 recall whether he discussed it or not. 11 accurate summary? 12 13 14 MS. MANGIANTE: Is that a Which is -- probably it is accurate to say that I simply don't know. MR. SCHIFF: Okay, well -- because this is 15 very important that we be specific on this. 16 know whether he sent an email and you don't know 17 whether he discussed the Mifsud conversation -- 18 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 MR. SCHIFF: 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 (Pause.) 22 MR. SCHIFF: You don't Yes. -- with others on the campaign. Yes. Did your husband ever tell you 151 1 What his reaction was when the President publicly -- 2 then candidate-Trump publicly called for the Russians 3 to hack Hillary Clinton's emails, that they would be 4 rewarded? 5 reaction to that was? Did your husband ever tell you what his 6 MS. MANGIANTE: 7 MR. SCHIFF: 8 No, he never told me. Now, the story that I referred to -MS. MANGIANTE: 9 It was -- I remember it was 10 -- ah, yes. 11 Russian collusion ever happened, why would he publicly 12 say that? 13 It was like, oh, yeah, if they are -- some That is what he told me. MR. SCHIFF: The story that I am referring to 14 is a story from two months ago, in May, in which it was 15 reported that Mr. Mashburn said repeatedly that he 16 recalled receiving a message with some detail about 17 Russian information on Mrs. Clinton, and that other 18 campaign officials almost certainly would have been 19 copied on the memo. 20 Mashburn is reported to have testified he received from 21 your husband. 22 And that is an email that Mr. And I think, if I understood your testimony 152 1 today, you don't know whether that is accurate or not, 2 that Mr. Mashburn received a -MS. MANGIANTE: 3 4 I mean did he show this email? 5 MR. SCHIFF: 6 MS. MANGIANTE: 7 Yes. I am sorry? During his testimony provided with the email? 8 MR. SCHIFF: I am just reading -- 9 MS. MANGIANTE: 10 MR. SCHIFF: 11 MS. MANGIANTE: No, no, just -- no, it was -- Yes. I know you are reading, but I 12 think that was our guess, was -- I remember George 13 telling me about a call to -MR. SCHIFF: 14 15 That he doesn't recall putting it in writing? 16 MS. MANGIANTE: 17 MR. SCHIFF: 18 19 20 Yeah. Do you have a question on this -MR. SWALWELL: So January 27 of 2017, you and George were dating at that point? 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 MR. SWALWELL: No, we were talking. You were talking. Does th at 153 1 date stand out for any reason to you? MS. MANGIANTE: 2 I think it is the date of the 3 interview with the FBI, George's interview with the 4 FBI. I remember because it was close to my birthday. 5 MR. SWALWELL: 6 MS. MANGIANTE: 7 MR. SWALWELL: 8 MS. MANGIANTE: MR. SWALWELL: MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SWALWELL: 16 17 Do you know what time of day In the morning. Do you know what time in the morning? MS. MANGIANTE: No, I don't remember. I think early in the morning. 18 MR. SWALWELL: 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SWALWELL: 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 I think they came to his they came? 13 15 Where did the FBI interview house. 11 12 . George that day? 9 10 When is your birthday? Was he expecting them? No, I don't think so. Was it a surprise to him? We had been talking about -- no, he told me it was very comfortable. He didn't 154 1 suspect anything could happen to him eventually. He 2 told me he was preparing to go to Washington because he 3 wanted to have an interview with the White House, to 4 have a job with the White House, so -- and that is why 5 I said I would cooperate, say whatever I have to say, I 6 am happy to help with the FBI, that is what he told me. So I was not even -- his mother was more 7 8 concerned. 9 agent in the house, and George said, "No, no, I want to 10 She told me she would not allow the FBI talk with them." That is what happened -- 11 MR. SWALWELL: 12 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 MR. SWALWELL: 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 15 MR. SWALWELL: 16 MS. MANGIANTE: 17 MR. SWALWELL: 18 Did George tell you that day that he had been 19 Where was George at the time? His mother's house. Where is that? In the Lincoln Square. In Chicago? Yes. Okay. Lincoln Square. interviewed -- 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. SWALWELL: 22 MS. MANGIANTE: No. -- by the FBI? No. 155 MR. SWALWELL: 1 Do you know if George told 2 anybody else that he had been interviewed by the FBI 3 that day? 4 MS. MANGIANTE: I don't know who he was in 5 touch with, what he was doing at the time. 6 was in touch with me via WhatsApp, you know, but he 7 didn't tell me. 8 9 10 MR. SWALWELL: I know he Do you know if George told anybody working at the White House that he had been interviewed? 11 MS. MANGIANTE: 12 MR. SWALWELL: 13 MS. MANGIANTE: I don't know. Have you ever asked him? I don't think -- yes. I 14 think one of the things he told me about the interview 15 with the FBI is not allowed to have any contact 16 whatsoever with anyone affiliated to Trump. 17 one restriction. 18 19 20 21 22 So that is So I don't think he would. MR. SWALWELL: No, I am talking about the first interview. MS. MANGIANTE: Ah, the first interview. don't know, I really don't know. MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Do you know if he I 156 1 talked after the January 27 interview in the morning -- 2 if George talked to anybody on the campaign about that 3 interview? MS. MANGIANTE: 4 I don't know. He didn't even 5 tell me at the time, so whatever I learn is months 6 later. 7 MR. SWALWELL: And the second time George was 8 interviewed about a month later, in February, did 9 George tell you about that interview? 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. SWALWELL: 12 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 MR. SWALWELL: 14 anybody else about that interview? He didn't? I didn't know. Do you know if George told 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SWALWELL: 17 No. I don't know. Do you know where the second interview took place? 18 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 (Pause.) 20 MR. SCHIFF: No, I don't know. On April 27th there was an event 21 at the Mayflower Hotel that was hosted by the Center 22 for National Interest in Washington, D.C. Did your 157 1 husband ever tell you anything about that particular 2 event? 3 his first foreign policy speech. That was one where President Trump delivered 4 MS. MANGIANTE: 5 MR. SCHIFF: 6 MS. MANGIANTE: 7 No -- yes, 2016. MR. SCHIFF: 9 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 Mentioned about attending this event and editing Trump's speech. 8 10 2016? So he attended the event? I think he did. I think he did. MR. SCHIFF: Was that one of the times you 12 mentioned -- one of the few times that he may have met 13 Donald Trump? 14 MS. MANGIANTE: I am -- I think it is -- I 15 don't -- I mean I don't want to -- I think he did, but 16 I don't want to be -- I don't want to confuse an event 17 with another. 18 MR. SCHIFF: Yes. Was he involved at all? 19 Did he tell you whether he was involved at all in 20 drafting any part of the President's speech? 21 22 MS. MANGIANTE: edited Trump's speech. Yes, he told me that he 158 1 MR. SCHIFF: 2 MS. MANGIANTE: 3 MR. SCHIFF: 4 That he edited the speech? Mm-hmm. Anything else he told you ab out that particular event? MS. MANGIANTE: 5 I don't remember, even if I 6 am thinking about the same event. 7 the same, because it is a foreign, right? 8 speech on foreign policy. MR. SCHIFF: 9 But I suppose it is He gave his According to statement of the 10 offense, on the day after your husband had the meeting 11 with Mifsud, where he brought up the emails, your 12 husband emailed a high-ranking official of the campaign 13 to discuss Russia's interest in hosting Mr. Trump. 14 -- which he said that -- "Have some interesting 15 messages coming in from Moscow. 16 the time is right?" And How about a trip when 17 Did your husband tell you about that email? 18 MS. MANGIANTE: I read this email, yes. 19 was trying to arrange a meeting with Putin. 20 purpose of this email was to arrange a meeting with 21 Putin. 22 MR. SCHIFF: The So at that point he still He 159 1 believed that the professor had sufficient connections 2 to make that happen. MS. MANGIANTE: 3 I don't know what he 4 believed. 5 campaign, or he believed it, or he was hoping that he 6 had this connection. 7 know what he was trying to do. 8 I don't know if he was trying to impress the So I am not in his mind, I just MR. SCHIFF: And do you know who the high - 9 ranking official of the campaign was that he was having 10 this communication with the day after that meeting with 11 the professor? 12 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 maybe in the email? 14 the email, it is public. 15 addressed to. 16 I don't know. I mean I -- I don't know who he was -- I read MR. SCHIFF: But I don't know who it was Do you know -- did your husband 17 tell you whether he received any feedback back from 18 that high-ranking campaign official? 19 MS. MANGIANTE: No, he didn't. He said 20 simply that he thought he was doing a great job. 21 is what -- they thought it was really great job, yeah. 22 MR. SCHIFF: On April 30th your husband That 160 1 emailed Mifsud and thanked him for what he described as 2 critical help in arranging a meeting between campaign 3 and Russian government officials. 4 at all with your husband? MS. MANGIANTE: 5 Did you discuss that I didn't discuss this email, 6 but must be in contradiction with what actually 7 happened. MR. SCHIFF: 8 9 I mean it is nothing. I don't know -- And you say that because the meeting didn't come about? MS. MANGIANTE: 10 Not -- yeah. It didn't -- 11 yes. 12 to him real person, you know. 13 a Russian student and a Russian think tank important 14 enough. 15 So it wasn't successful, and he didn't introduce MR. SCHIFF: Not -- I don't consider Well, Professor Mifsud did 16 arrange for meetings with individuals from the Ministry 17 of Foreign Affairs, did he not? 18 MS. MANGIANTE: He did arrange a meeting with 19 the Ministry of Foreign Affairs? 20 MR. SCHIFF: 21 22 No. Not the minister, but people from the ministry. MS. MANGIANTE: George told me he never met 161 1 any Russian officials. MR. SCHIFF: 2 That is what he told me. According to the statement of 3 the offense, a Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs 4 connection sent an email to your husband and Professor 5 Mifsud that says, "I have just talked to my colleagues 6 from the MFA. 7 the options is to make a meeting for you at the North 8 America desk if you are in Moscow." 9 MS. MANGIANTE: They are open for cooperation. One of Sorry, can you tell me again? 10 Was this person somebody -- is an official from the 11 Ministry of Foreign Affairs? MR. SCHIFF: 12 13 According to the statement of the offense -- 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 15 MR. SCHIFF: Yes. -- your husband received an 16 email from an MFA connection saying, "I have just 17 talked to my colleagues from the MFA. 18 for cooperation. 19 meeting for you at the North America desk if you are in 20 Moscow." 21 22 They are open One of the options is to make a Papadopoulos responded that he was glad that the MFA was interested. 162 Did you ever discuss this interchange with 1 2 your husband? MS. MANGIANTE: 3 Not specifically. But he 4 told me he was -- never met any Russian people. 5 am just now -- okay. So who is qualified as the Russian minister 6 7 So I foreign affair connection? 8 MR. SCHIFF: Well, the pertinent thing is -- 9 MS. MANGIANTE: 10 MR. SCHIFF: 11 MS. MANGIANTE: No, because it is important. -- did your husband -No, it is important, because 12 it is a Russian official. 13 think tank that is quoted, and -- in this -- as the 14 Russian connection? MR. SCHIFF: 15 16 do you know the answer? 17 this MFA contact was? Yes, and part of the question is Did your husband tell you who MS. MANGIANTE: 18 Is this person from the No. I mean I think this is 19 the same -- sorry if I take my time because of the 20 English. 21 MR. SCHIFF: No, please take your time. 22 MS. MANGIANTE: This is -- we are talking 163 1 about this document. 2 professor, right? 3 this document -- Even the Mifsud is -- was his I mean we don't have any name in 4 MR. SCHIFF: 5 MS. MANGIANTE: 6 Correct. -- in the statement of the offense. So I have the reason to believe that this 7 8 person -- as far as I know, George met Mifsud -- I mean 9 was in touch to Mifsud only with this student, Russian 10 niece, and this other person that I learned about from 11 two -- a few -- two months ago, because he also 12 released an interview saying that George was 13 unprofessional. 14 We are talking about Ivan Timofeev, right? 15 MR. SCHIFF: 16 MS. MANGIANTE: 17 public record right now. 18 you the guess. I am -- I think it is in the That is why I am sharing with Because this is not up to date. MR. SCHIFF: 19 Well, I am asking you -- Well, it is very important for 20 us to know what your husband related to you, not what 21 you have learned through reading public reports, or 22 even -- 164 1 MS. MANGIANTE: 2 MR. SCHIFF: 3 MS. MANGIANTE: No, I -- -- the statement of the offense. Of course, I know. I am just 4 saying that my understanding is that this person is 5 Ivan Timofeev. 6 a think tank person who said he had contacts that he 7 failed to introduce to George. And it is not a Russian official, he is 8 MR. SCHIFF: 9 MS. MANGIANTE: MR. SCHIFF: 10 11 A lot of talking. And Ivan -I think I -- -- Timofeev, what is his background? MS. MANGIANTE: 12 I don't know this person at 13 all. 14 came up to me was during my interview with the FBI in 15 which they asked me if I knew this person. 16 time this name was absolutely black, obscure to me. 17 That is when I asked George -- the FBI asked me about 18 even Timofeev. 19 I remember the first time his name came out -- And at the And then he told me after my interview with 20 the FBI, he told me is the other person that Mifsud 21 introduced him to, and he is a think tank, and he was 22 in touch with him, trying to organize the meeting with 165 1 the Putin and -- so this person must be Ivan Timofeev. MR. SCHIFF: 2 Okay. And did your husband ever 3 tell you that he was in contact with someone named Ivan 4 Timofeev? MS. MANGIANTE: 5 No, never. Neither before -- 6 I asked him, because the FBI brought up this name to 7 me, and I was curious to know, because they asked me, 8 "Have you ever met Ivan Timofeev? 9 Timofeev?" 10 Do you know Ivan I said no, and then I went -- I asked George 11 who is Ivan Timofeev, why the FBI was so much 12 interested to know if I know this person, and that is 13 when George told me who is this person. 14 MR. SCHIFF: 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 So what did George tell you? He told me that it is think tank -- how you say in English -- think tank, or -- 17 MR. SCHIFF: Yes. 18 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 MR. SCHIFF: Yeah. So he -- George told you that 20 his knowledge of this guy was that he was affiliated 21 with a think tank? 22 MS. MANGIANTE: He is affiliated with a think 166 1 tank, and -MR. SCHIFF: 2 3 With a Russian think tank? What kind of a think tank? MS. MANGIANTE: 4 I think is a Russian 5 national, as well. And it was the other person that 6 Mifsud introduced, was working with Mifsud, as well. 7 And this is the other contact that Mifsud introduced 8 George to, in order to organize the meeting with Trump 9 and Putin. But he was not technically an official 10 Russian -- because he never met with a Russian 11 official, so it is not technically Russian official. 12 13 14 15 16 MR. SCHIFF: No, some people work for the Russian government, work in undeclared positions. MS. MANGIANTE: That is -- I don't know. just told me -MR. SCHIFF: All you can tell us is that, 17 from what you gather from your husband, Mr. Timofeev 18 put himself off as a academic at a think tank? 19 He MS. MANGIANTE: Yes, saying that he could 20 arrange a meeting, they could help arranging a meeting 21 with Putin. 22 MR. SCHIFF: And again, you wouldn't be aware 167 1 precisely of who your husband was informing of the -- 2 at the campaign of these overtures by Timofeev or 3 Mifsud or others, in terms of a Russian meeting? MS. MANGIANTE: 4 I don't know, because, as I 5 said, the first time I ever heard about Timofeev it was 6 on October, during my interview with the FBI. And then George told me, oh, no, it is 7 8 somebody that Mifsud introduced me to, working as an 9 academic for a think tank, working with Mifsud, and 10 having access to contact important enough to arrange a 11 meeting. MR. SCHIFF: 12 Your husband appears to have 13 forwarded some of the information he receives from 14 Timofeev to Paul Manafort. 15 relationship was with Paul Manafort during the 16 campaign? 17 MS. MANGIANTE: Do you know what George's I don't know. I don't think 18 they knew -- I think they probably called on the phone. 19 I asked him if he ever met Manafort. 20 to recall he never met with -- personally. 21 22 MR. SCHIFF: I think -- I seem Did he discuss with you at all keeping Manafort in the loop about his discussions 168 1 with -- 2 MS. MANGIANTE: 3 MR. SCHIFF: 4 MS. MANGIANTE: No, that -- -- Timofeev or Mifsud? I don't think so. 5 know. Let's say I don't know. 6 don't think so sounds my opinion. MR. SCHIFF: 7 I don't It is better, because I I don't know. You mentioned earlier that one 8 of the reasons that you went public is you were -- you 9 didn't describe it as upset, but you were not pleased 10 that the campaign was representing your husband as a 11 coffee boy. MS. MANGIANTE: 12 I was -- that -- defending 13 more than my husband. 14 contacted by all the American media and they -- for a 15 long time before I went on Stephanopoulos the first 16 time, invitation. 17 saying he was a low-level volunteer doing nothing, it 18 was not about his reputation, it was just contradicting 19 what I knew about his contribution that was completely 20 different. 21 22 But then, when I saw that they were MR. SCHIFF: saying wasn't true? The -- at the time I was It is just that what they were 169 1 MS. MANGIANTE: Yes, and that is when I 2 remember I was being -- Pamela Brown, they told me, "So 3 what did you think about George being qualified as a 4 low-level volunteer?" 5 I said, "I think it is not true." I was 6 talking over the phone, based on some exchange with 7 higher-level officials and other information I had 8 about his contribution to the campaign. 9 And they said, "Would you like to come and 10 simply tell that?" 11 That was the purpose of my own TV appearance. 12 And then I accept the invitation. MR. SCHIFF: And part of the reason why you 13 knew that wasn't the case, that he was a low-level 14 coffee boy, was that he had informed you that, in fact, 15 he was in communication with people like Mike Flynn and 16 Paul Manafort -- 17 MR. SCHIFF: Exactly, Steve Bannon, yes. 18 MR. SCHIFF: -- and Steve Bannon, and people 19 who were -- 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. SCHIFF: 22 MS. MANGIANTE: Yes. -- top of the campaign. Yes. 170 MR. SCHIFF: 1 And I want to get into it a 2 little later on about his work -- arranged meetings 3 with foreign leaders like el-Sisi. MS. MANGIANTE: 4 Yes. And they also used the 5 interview to -- facts to Russian media. 6 low-level be approved to release the only interview to 7 the Russian media? 8 completely false. I mean that is completely -- it was MR. SCHIFF: 9 Why would a Just to finish up on this, in 10 court filings Mr. Timofeev has been described as 11 connected to the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 12 but you are not aware of what that connection would be? 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SCHIFF: No, I don't. The email that your husband sent 15 to Paul Manafort about these arrangements to -- a high- 16 level meeting -- 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 18 MR. SCHIFF: 19 (Pause.) 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 to Rick Gates. 22 No. Which email? If I can ask -- Yes, of course. So this is from Paul Manafort George wasn't copied on these emails? 171 1 MR. SCHIFF: Well, they start -- 2 MS. MANGIANTE: 3 MR. SCHIFF: Okay, so this is -- So this email from Ivan Timofeev 4 dated May 4th saying, "Dear George, I just talked to my 5 colleagues in MFA. 6 of the options is to make a meeting for you at the 7 North America desk if you are at Moscow. 8 reinforced my initial idea about a letter where you 9 could fix the idea of Mr. Trump's visit, a range of They are open for cooperation. They 10 persons he would like to meet, and the time he would 11 like to do it. 12 Trump himself" -- Such a letter could be signed by Mr. 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SCHIFF: 15 Yeah. -- "or by yourself, as his advisor." 16 MS. MANGIANTE: 17 MR. SCHIFF: 18 One Mm-hmm. This is, I think, forwarded by your husband to Paul Manafort. 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SCHIFF: Okay. I see now. And then it is sent by Manafort 21 to Gates. And in the discussion between Manafort and 22 Gates, it looks like Manafort says, "We need someone to 172 1 communicate that DT" -- Donald Trump -- "is not doing 2 his trips. 3 campaign, so as not to send any signal." 4 Did your husband -- 5 (Witness examined the document.) 6 MR. SCHIFF: 7 MS. MANGIANTE: 8 MR. SCHIFF: 9 It should be someone low-level in the So -- Is this exchange of emails anything you -- 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. SCHIFF: 12 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 Okay, I have no idea. No, just -- -- discussed with your husband? No, George never discussed those emails with me. 14 MR. SCHIFF: All right. 15 MS. MANGIANTE: Probably -- yeah. Probably 16 the only one I have knowledge of is this one from Ivan 17 recently. 18 saying -- you see it is just trying to organize a 19 meeting with Putin again. 20 evidence. 21 22 I was reading this email very recently, just MR. SCHIFF: that to you. I mean, like, this is All right. I am going to pass And we may be able to finish before 173 1 votes, or we may not. I am going to use the restroom again, I will 2 3 be right back. MR. SWALWELL: 4 Ms. Mangiante, other than the 5 Russian individuals we have discussed, to your 6 knowledge was George interacting with anyone we haven't 7 discussed, any Russians that haven't been covered yet 8 in our conversation? MS. MANGIANTE: 9 I don't know. 10 MR. SWALWELL: 11 relationships with any Russians -- 12 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 MR. SWALWELL: 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 15 MR. SWALWELL: 16 19 20 I don't know. -- that we haven't discussed? I don't know. Has he talked to you about any Russians that he has worked with? MS. MANGIANTE: 17 18 Did he have any prior I don't recall him talking about it. MR. SWALWELL: Did George go to the Republican National Convention? 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 MR. SWALWELL: I think he did. When w as it? It was in July 2016. 174 MS. MANGIANTE: 1 2 but I think he did, no? 3 recall -- 4 MR. SWALWELL: 5 MS. MANGIANTE: I didn't know at the time, I don't -- I mean I don't Has he talked about attending? I realize right now we talked 6 about so many things that sometimes I have difficulties 7 to answer to specific questions. MR. SWALWELL: 8 9 So just closing up on this MFA exchanges, in May 2016 the professor told George that 10 he had an update on their recent conversations, and he 11 "will continue to liaise through you with the Russian 12 counterparts in terms of what is needed for a high- 13 level meeting of Mr. Trump with the Russia Federation." 14 George then emailed back and stated that the 15 Russian -- he emailed a high-ranking campaign official 16 and said, "The Russian government has relayed to me 17 they are interested in hosting Mr. Trump." Is that something George had discussed with 18 19 20 21 22 you? MS. MANGIANTE: repeat it again? Sorry, can I ask you to I am a bit tired. MR. SWALWELL: Sure. No, it is okay. So 175 1 this is May 13 and 14. 2 up between the professor and George. 3 and the professor is telling George that "We will 4 continue to liaise through you with the Russian 5 counterparts in terms of what is needed for a high- 6 level meeting of Mr. Trump with the Russian 7 Federation." exchange? MS. MANGIANTE: 10 11 12 And the George -- Did George ever talk to you about this 8 9 Again, it is just more follow- Specifically? I don't remember. MR. SWALWELL: And then George continues to 13 stay in touch with a "high-ranking campaign official," 14 and on May 21st, 2016 says that -- "Request from Russia 15 to meet Mr. Trump." 16 That is the subject line. And George said -- and added the May 4th MFA 17 email that said Russia has been eager to meet Mr. Trump 18 for quite some time, "and has been reaching out to me 19 to discuss it." Are you familiar with that? 20 MS. MANGIANTE: Mm-hmm. 21 (Witness examined the document.) 22 MS. MANGIANTE: Yeah, mm-hmm. 176 MR. SWALWELL: 1 2 George discussed that with you, his continued work to make that arrangement? MS. MANGIANTE: 3 Yes, he mentioned -- I mean I 4 don't remember with specific emails. 5 reading many of them. 6 he was actually trying to do that. 7 insisting. 9 And yes, he was telling me that MR. SWALWELL: 8 I have been It was insisting, And according to the state of the offense, from mid-June through mid-August 2016 10 George pursued an off-the-record meeting between one or 11 more campaign representatives and members of President 12 Putin's office. Do you know -- 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SWALWELL: 15 Can I see where -Yes, so that is page 9, paragraph 21. 16 MS. MANGIANTE: 17 (Witness examined the document.) 18 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 Members of President Putin's office. 20 MR. SWALWELL: 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 Okay, so it is -- think I am tired of -- And the MFA. And off the record, okay. I 177 MR. SWALWELL: 1 2 Do you know what off the record means? 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 MR. SWALWELL: Yes, yes, of course. And what do you think the 5 purpose was of holding an off-the-record meeting? 6 what did George mean by that? MS. MANGIANTE: 7 I think he wanted to make 8 sure he could arrange a meeting before making it 9 official. MR. SWALWELL: 10 11 Or Do you know if that meeting ever took place? 12 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 MR. SWALWELL: I don't know. On June 19, 2016, after 14 several emails, Skype exchanges with the MFA connect, 15 George emailed the high-ranking campaign official -MS. MANGIANTE: 16 17 Sorry, I prefer to read it too, if you tell me where you are reading. MR. SWALWELL: 18 Sure. Well, I am mostly 19 referring to continued discussions that George had in 20 June 2016. 21 22 When did George tell you that he was having Skype conversations with the MFA? When did you first 178 1 learn of that? MS. MANGIANTE: 2 As I said, after my interview 3 with the FBI I asked George who is Ivan Timofeev, and 4 then he explained me who is this person, and then he 5 told me the nature of the -- this person. 6 "Did you ever meet with him?" 7 me that he was mostly having this Skype conversation. MR. SWALWELL: 8 9 And I recall him telling Do you know if George ever took any trips to Russia during the campaign? 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. SWALWELL: 12 And I said, Never. Has George ever been to Russia? 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SWALWELL: 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SWALWELL: Never. Did you ask him? Yes. According to the statement of 17 the offense -- so, again, page 9, paragraph 21 -- after 18 several weeks of communications about this off-the- 19 record meeting, on August 15, 2016 the campaign 20 supervisor told George, "I would encourage you and 21 other foreign policy advisors to make the trip if it is 22 feasible." 179 Did George ever talk about directions that he 1 2 received from the campaign to make the trip? MS. MANGIANTE: 3 Not specifically, but he told 4 me they were happy about his work. 5 MR. SWALWELL: 6 tickets were bought, or -- 7 MS. MANGIANTE: 8 MR. SWALWELL: 9 MS. MANGIANTE: never went to Russia. -- travel itineraries were I don't know, but I -- he So that -- MR. SWALWELL: 12 13 No, I think -- worked up? 10 11 Do you know if any plane Do you know if he ever went anywhere else to meet Russians? MS. MANGIANTE: 14 No, I don't know. But I 15 think he didn't, because he has always told me, "I 16 didn't meet any Russian official, I don't have anything 17 to do with Russia." 18 time. 19 That is what he tells me all the MR. SWALWELL: How did George feel when 20 Donald Trump tweeted on October 31st last year that 21 "few people knew the young, low-level volunteer named 22 George, who has already proven to be a liar"? What did 180 1 George think when he -MS. MANGIANTE: 2 I think that Trump has 3 misunderstood his role, and he feels like he is doing 4 everything in his capacity to help his country, and he 5 also feels as a victim, being a victim of -- so more 6 than -MR. SWALWELL: 7 Did George have any thoughts 8 on why people at the White House and from the campaign 9 were trying to minimize his role? You know, one 10 person, as you referenced earlier, called him a coffee 11 boy. 12 MS. MANGIANTE: He -- as I said, he thought 13 it was based on misunderstanding of the situation and 14 the -- recently this same person apologized. 15 -- I think it was -- again, he was not a coffee boy. 16 MR. SWALWELL: So it was And you mentioned Hope Hicks 17 briefly earlier. Did Ms. Hicks ever tell George to 18 stand down or not continue communications that he was 19 having with the press on behalf of the campaign? 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 (Pause.) 22 MR. SWALWELL: I don't know. One witness has informed us 181 1 that, in September 2016, George and Steve Bannon were 2 engaged directly with Egyptian officials to organize 3 candidate Trump's meeting with Egyptian President Sisi, 4 which eventually took place on September 19th, 2016. 5 According to one witness, Bannon and 6 Papadopoulos met in Washington with Egyptian officials 7 to work out meeting details. 8 statement last December that George set up Donald 9 Trump's meeting with Egypt's President Sisi. 10 11 12 You mentioned in your own What is your understanding about George's role in that meeting, and arranging it? MS. MANGIANTE: It was coordinating the 13 meeting -- coordinated all the -- everything to make 14 the meeting possible. 15 Egyptian embassy and that through those contacts he 16 tried to set up a meeting and he succeeded. 17 I think he had contacts in I don't know much more details about who are 18 the people involved, but I know it was -- had quite 19 interesting expertise in this area, and he had many -- 20 he has many contacts in the Middle East. 21 22 MR. SWALWELL: Did George mention that he worked with Steve Bannon on this meeting? 182 1 MS. MANGIANTE: 2 MR. SWALWELL: 3 MS. MANGIANTE: I remember only Steve Bannon. There must be also other people. 6 MR. SWALWELL: 7 MS. MANGIANTE: 8 MR. SWALWELL: 9 Who else did George mention he has worked with to set up this meeting? 4 5 Yes. Did you see any evidence -Yes. -- that George had worked with Steve Bannon -- 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. SWALWELL: 12 MS. MANGIANTE: Yes. I have seen -- What did you see? -- emails, some exchange via 13 email, in which he is talking about arranging this 14 meeting. 15 said, "Show me the email." 16 17 Because before saying these things on TV I MR. SWALWELL: Did Steve Bannon and George talk after George was arrested? 18 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 MR. SWALWELL: 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. SWALWELL: 22 MS. MANGIANTE: No. Okay. No. Did you -No, he didn't have a -- after 183 1 his arrest -- he doesn't have any -- basically, after 2 his arrest, and probably before, he didn't have any 3 contact -MR. SWALWELL: 4 5 What did you read in those emails between Steve and George? MS. MANGIANTE: 6 Really random emails, like 7 George saying, "I have -- I can arrange a meeting if 8 President Trump is interested. 9 this person from the embassy," something like that. 10 "Let's put it forward." 11 emails. 12 13 MR. SWALWELL: I put in touch with "Really?" Or, you know, short Did George go to the meeting that candidate Trump had with President Sisi? 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 15 MR. SWALWELL: I don't know. We also heard that George was 16 involved in a Get Out the Vote effort during the final 17 weeks of the Trump campaign, mobilizing the orthodox -- 18 MS. MANGIANTE: 19 MR. SWALWELL: Get out? Mobilizing voters, getting 20 them to the polls, focused on mobilizing orthodox 21 Christian constituencies. 22 MS. MANGIANTE: Is that true? I don't know. But it might 184 1 be true, I don't know. MR. SWALWELL: 2 3 it? 4 MS. MANGIANTE: 5 MR. SWALWELL: 6 7 Has George ever talked about No. What was the contact that you saw between George and General Flynn? MS. MANGIANTE: Again, random emails of 8 updating about work, you know, like work emails, 9 exchange -- not specific content of the specific -- 10 MR. SWALWELL: 11 MS. MANGIANTE: 12 13 Did you ever -I just say correspondence between the two of them. MR. SWALWELL: Did you -- before George was 14 arrested in July 2016, did you ever observe George talk 15 on the phone with General Flynn? 16 MS. MANGIANTE: 17 MR. SWALWELL: 18 19 20 No. How about talk on the phone with Steve Bannon? MS. MANGIANTE: Sorry. I met George for the first time on April 2017. 21 MR. SWALWELL: 22 MS. MANGIANTE: April 2017? Yes. 185 MR. SWALWELL: 1 2 yet. 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 MR. SWALWELL: 5 MS. MANGIANTE: MR. SWALWELL: MS. MANGIANTE: MR. SWALWELL: No, I never see him talking Did he ever talk to you about access he had to administration officials? 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 15 MR. SWALWELL: 16 Did you ever see him talk to to any administration official. 12 13 I don't recall -- I never pay any administration officials? 10 11 So from the time that you met attention who he was talking to on the phone. 8 9 Yeah, no. him on April -- 6 7 So he hadn't been arrested No. Did George have a relationship with Jared Kushner? MS. MANGIANTE: 17 I don't know. I don't think 18 -- I don't know, but I don't think much, no. 19 think so. 20 don't know. I don' t I don't know if he ever met with him, but I 21 MR. SWALWELL: 22 MS. MANGIANTE: How about Stephen Miller? Who? 186 1 MR. SWALWELL: 2 MS. MANGIANTE: 3 MR. SWALWELL: Stephen Miller. I don't know even -In October 2016, George 4 appeared to still be representing the campaign, and in 5 a news story at news.com it reports the Polish media 6 are commenting today on the interview that George 7 Papadopoulos, Trump campaign advisor, gave to the 8 Russian Interfax News Agency on September 30th, 2016. Do you know anything about that interview? 9 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. SWALWELL: 12 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 MR. SWALWELL: 14 Yes. What do you know? I read the article. What did -- how did George get in touch with Interfax? MS. MANGIANTE: 15 I don't know. But I know 16 that Bryan Lanza is the person who authorized this 17 interview. 18 MR. SWALWELL: Bryan Lanza of the campaign -- 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SWALWELL: 21 When did George's work with the campaign end? 22 MS. MANGIANTE: Yes. -- communications team? I don't know. I really -- I 187 1 don't know these details. MR. SWALWELL: 2 3 Tower? 4 MS. MANGIANTE: 5 MR. SWALWELL: 6 I think so. Do you know when that occurred? 7 MS. MANGIANTE: 8 MR. SWALWELL: 9 Has George ever been to Trump Sorry? Do you know when that occurred? MS. MANGIANTE: 10 I don't know if you want an 11 official position. Technically, we have been together 12 also, on occasion of my first trip to New York. 13 that was not -- it was probably for a coffee, so -- 14 MR. SWALWELL: 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SWALWELL: 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 18 19 20 But Was it with someone on the -No, no. -- Trump family campaign? Me and him. No, no, no. Me and him. MR. SWALWELL: Okay. You and George went to Trump Tower for coffee? 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 MR. SWALWELL: Yes. When was that? 188 MS. MANGIANTE: 1 April 2017, when I went to 2 New York for a trip. 3 to Trump Tower, but I don't know which other context, 4 other than this. MR. SWALWELL: 5 6 So I definitely know he has been or was it just the two of you? 7 MS. MANGIANTE: 8 MR. SWALWELL: 9 10 12 MR. SWALWELL: 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SWALWELL: For what purpose? When I was living in New Okay. And why did you go to Trump Tower? MS. MANGIANTE: 18 MR. SWALWELL: Starbucks. Oh. But did you ever meet with anyone -- 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. SWALWELL: 22 Yes, before. York. 17 19 Have -- other than that time Tower? MS. MANGIANTE: 15 No, me and George. going to Trump Tower, have you ever been to Trump 11 14 Did you meet with anyone else, White House? No. Has George ever been to the 189 1 MS. MANGIANTE: 2 MR. SWALWELL: 3 MS. MANGIANTE: the White House. 10 Have you ever been to the White House? MS. MANGIANTE: 8 9 I know he wanted to work for That is all I know. MR. SWALWELL: 6 7 Has he ever talked about going to the White House? 4 5 I don't know. I think, yes, I have been to the White House when I was in Washington with my internship with Mayer Brown. MR. SWALWELL: 11 Yes, I have been -- 2007. Has George ever -- has anyone 12 affiliated with the President talked to George or his 13 lawyer or anyone in George's family about a pardon for 14 George? 15 MS. MANGIANTE: No, I am only -- the only one 16 who asked for a pardon for George out of nothing. 17 his lawyer didn't file any formal request for a pardon. 18 MR. SWALWELL: 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SWALWELL: 21 MS. MANGIANTE: 22 MR. SWALWELL: Even Who have you asked? Sorry? Who have you asked? Trump, via CNN and FOX News. Have you ever talked to anyone 190 1 directly in the campaign -- 2 MS. MANGIANTE: 3 MR. SWALWELL: 4 MS. MANGIANTE: 5 MR. SWALWELL: 6 MS. MANGIANTE: 7 MR. SWALWELL: 8 9 10 No. -- about a pardon? No. Has anyone reached out to you? Nobody. Has anyone reached out to your lawyer? MS. MANGIANTE: MR. SWALWELL: Nobody. Has anyone reached out to 11 anyone you know, a family member or a friend, about a 12 pardon for George? 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SWALWELL: 15 16 No. Do you believe anyone has ever -- let me -MS. MANGIANTE: The only people reaching out 17 to me are journalists to ask me about the reason why I 18 did ask, but nobody from the White House, no one. 19 20 21 22 MR. SWALWELL: What role did George want with the White House? MS. MANGIANTE: function, or -- I don't know. I think a 191 1 MR. SWALWELL: A what? 2 MS. MANGIANTE: I don't know. Maybe a 3 function. I don't know which role he wanted. 4 expectation was to work at the White House. 5 MR. SCHIFF: His We are close to the end you will 6 be happy to know. 7 I am going to ask you about some people, whether you 8 know them or not. 9 We appreciate your long day with us. Do you know Sergei Millian? 10 MS. MANGIANTE: 11 MR. SCHIFF: 12 Did you hear about him from George, or -- 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SCHIFF: 15 16 I heard about him a lot. Yes. And what did George tell you about Sergei Millian? MS. MANGIANTE: So this is -- George always 17 referred to Sergei Millian -- I remember when we met, 18 when we were in Europe, it was always telling Sergei 19 Millian was a friend that was very interesting, very 20 nice, but he was thinking that he was acting weird. 21 22 I mean I remember that he talked at some point that he was an agent from the FBI. He thought he 192 1 was trying to set him up because he made him crazy job 2 offer, so he was guessing is that a shady businessman, 3 or is informant or trying to set me up, involve me with 4 some financial crime. MR. SCHIFF: 5 And when did he think that 6 Sergei was trying to engage him in some financial 7 crime? MS. MANGIANTE: 8 9 Because he came to -- Sergei, I know, went to see George in Chicago. 10 meeting in the Trump Tower. 11 the Trump Tower or somewhere else. They had a I don't know -- maybe in And he offered him to work together as 12 13 consultants, but for an incredible amount of money to 14 set up an office in New York. 15 would require him to be working at the same time for 16 Trump. MR. SCHIFF: 17 18 19 20 21 22 years? And he said that this Now, has he known Millian for Or how long has he known Millian? MS. MANGIANTE: He told me that Millian reached out to him after he joined the campaign. MR. SCHIFF: And was Millian working on the campaign, or how did they come into contact with each 193 1 2 other? MS. MANGIANTE: He had reached out to George, 3 saying -- I don't know what he was doing. 4 is a real estate agent. 5 Trump business in -- the Trump Tower's business. 6 he started to -- it was very friendly with George. 7 Apparen tly He was taking care of the And He said he was inviting me to house, dinner, 8 drinks everywhere, until he made me this job proposal 9 which was completely unlikely. 10 11 12 true and, of course, would engage me in -MR. SCHIFF: So Millian was working for Trump when he met your husband. 13 MS. MANGIANTE: 14 MR. SCHIFF: 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SCHIFF: 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 18 MR. SCHIFF: 19 20 It was too good to be Yes. And -I think so. He was working -I think so. -- for the Trump organization, though, not the Trump campaign? MS. MANGIANTE: Yeah, I don't know. 21 a detail I can't tell, because it is so much 22 information in my head right now. I don't -- This is 194 MR. SCHIFF: 1 2 discussing this with your husband, is -MS. MANGIANTE: 3 4 But your impression, from Yeah, he was working with Trump organization, probably -- 5 MR. SCHIFF: On a business side. 6 MS. MANGIANTE: Or on the -- I mean I don't 7 know if his corporation with -- from the business side 8 led him to work on the campaign, as well. 9 know. 10 I don't know if it is the connection to Trump, or it is only interaction with Trump. MR. SCHIFF: 11 12 But they met while George was working on the campaign. MS. MANGIANTE: 13 14 I don't Sergei Millian reached out to George after George joined the campaign. MR. SCHIFF: 15 And Millian was working in some 16 other capacity for the Trump organization, campaign, or 17 business? 18 MS. MANGIANTE: George was -- what drew my 19 attention to -- was the fact that he had the feeling 20 that Sergei was recording him during this meeting at 21 Trump Tower, while he was making -- trying to involve 22 him in a financial crime. 195 George told me he has been involved in many 1 2 situations this nature. 3 myself when we were on holiday in Europe. MR. SCHIFF: 4 5 One of them, I witness it And what kind of financial crimes does he try to involve your husband in? MS. MANGIANTE: 6 Well, you -- I guess you are 7 not allowed to have private money and the public job at 8 the same time. 9 lobby to -- your network you are developing with Trump 10 And mostly making business out of your campaign. MR. SCHIFF: 11 Well, was this after Trump got 12 elected, or before that he was pursuing this 13 business -MS. MANGIANTE: I don't know. Maybe it was 15 in transition or before. I don't know. But definitely 16 something that was highly suspicious for George to 17 refuse. 14 18 19 20 MR. SCHIFF: So the business proposition cam e about while you were dating? MS. MANGIANTE: No, we were not, but he told 21 me about it. When he -- this guy is very friendly, I 22 don't know if he is a friend, or if he is an informant, 196 1 I don't know what it is, or he is a spy. 2 any idea who he is, because -- and I ask him why, why 3 you say that, and he mentioned this episode of this 4 dinner, lunch in Chicago, where he flew from I don't 5 know where, New York to Chicago to see him and to make 6 this proposal. MR. SCHIFF: 7 I don't have But you don't know any more 8 about this proposal than it seemed like kind of a shady 9 financial transaction? MS. MANGIANTE: 10 Could be. 11 financial transaction. 12 impression that it was recorded? 13 MR. SCHIFF: 14 Millian's background? 15 about -- But then why he was under the And what do you know of What did George tell you 16 MS. MANGIANTE: 17 MR. SCHIFF: 18 MS. MANGIANTE: A journalist -- -- where he was from, or -A journalist told me that is 19 not even his real name, Millian. 20 MR. SCHIFF: 21 though, about where he was from? 22 Could be a What did George tell you, MS. MANGIANTE: George doesn't -- George 197 1 thinks he is an American Russian, but he says he is an 2 American. MR. SCHIFF: 3 4 involve Russia at all? MS. MANGIANTE: 5 6 know. 7 Consultancy? 8 9 And did the shady business deal I don't think -- I don't I don't know which was the proposal, honestly. I don't know which was -- MR. SCHIFF: There have been some public reports about your husband having some involvement with 10 Israeli nationals. Is that different -- a different 11 allegation, or is that related to Millian, as well? 12 MS. MANGIANTE: 13 MR. SCHIFF: 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 15 MR. SCHIFF: 16 MS. MANGIANTE: No, it is different. What is that -It is a -- What does that involve? This -- I witnessed myself 17 Israeli national who came to -- through to Mykonos 18 while we were on holiday over there, and to discuss 19 business with George. 20 And this person, I remember, was myself 21 highly suspicious because this person would invite both 22 of us to Tel Aviv and Cyprus to formalize the details 198 1 of this proposal. 2 London, and George accepted his invitation. 3 person kept talking about setting up a consultancy 4 business, like consultants -MR. SCHIFF: 5 6 And this And is this after the campaign, or is -MS. MANGIANTE: 7 8 But I didn't go, I flew back to This is after. This is summer 2017. MR. SCHIFF: 9 Summer -- MS. MANGIANTE: 10 So we were talking about June 11 2017. Before -- right before George's arrest 12 Washington -- so that is a particular situation, 13 because this person handed $10,000 cash to George in a 14 room in Tel Aviv, I think, or -- yes, in Tel Aviv. 15 I remember I was on the phone. 16 And he said, "Yeah, you are right." I said it is weird. So I give back -- he gave this money to his 17 18 lawyer in Greece, and then he wrote an email to this 19 person to return this money, to ask to return this 20 money. 21 22 And Now -MR. SCHIFF: And what did this person want him to do for the money? 199 MS. MANGIANTE: 1 The idea was -- first of all, 2 this person never wanted the money back. 3 if there is a shady businessman, why the -- the 4 business deal don't go through, why would I not accept 5 the money back? 6 MR. SCHIFF: 7 MS. MANGIANTE: Why? I mean Yes. The idea is mostly that it 8 was probably a set-up again. When -- I don't know, it 9 is -- George has been treated by the FBI to be accused 10 as possibly being an Israeli agent himself. 11 happened right before he flew to United States, which, 12 if he was flying with this cash, where his cash coming 13 from -- 14 MR. SCHIFF: 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SCHIFF: This This happened -June 2017. So this is well after he has 17 been interviewed by the FBI. 18 after he is arrested? 19 MS. MANGIANTE: 20 MR. SCHIFF: And is this before or Before, right before. And do you know anything about 21 -- more about this Israeli, or what the business deal 22 was, or what the consultancy was supposed to be about? 200 MS. MANGIANTE: 1 2 unclear. MR. SCHIFF: 3 4 That is what was completely What did George tell you about what the business was supposed to -MS. MANGIANTE: 5 No, he didn't understand, 6 either. He said it was very vague about consultancy 7 lobby, you know, this kind of business. 8 why also he refused. And so that is And that is -- but I think the main reason is 9 10 that this person, if you -- appears to be also part of 11 intelligence. I mean linked -- had problems with 12 intelligence. I mean problems -- he was involved -- my 13 English is becoming very bad, I am sorry, I am tired. But this person -- we have to think about 14 15 George being -- coming back to the United States. 16 was arrest at the airport in Washington with a charge 17 of lying to the FBI on January -- when he had this 18 interview. 19 reason to arrest me? 20 He His idea was were they trying to find a MR. SCHIFF: Does he -- does George suspect 21 that he -- this person worked for Israeli intelligence? 22 Or you just have no idea? 201 1 MS. MANGIANTE: Yes. We suspect he was 2 working for Israeli intelligence. 3 take the money back if he was simply shady businessman? 4 This is my guess and his guess. 5 MR. SCHIFF: Why he would not Did you ever discuss with your 6 husband the meeting at Trump Tower that Don, Jr., Jared 7 Kushner, Paul Manafort took with the Russian 8 delegation? 9 10 MS. MANGIANTE: MR. SCHIFF: No, I never discussed it. Did you ever discuss with your 11 husband the emails that became public to Don, Jr. 12 offering dirt on Hillary Clinton as part of what was 13 described as the Russian Government effort to help the 14 Trump campaign? 15 those -- or emails designed to set up the meeting in 16 Trump Tower? Did you ever discuss those emails, Do you know the ones I am referring to? 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 18 MR. SCHIFF: 19 Prior to the June 9th meeting at Trump Tower -- 20 MS. MANGIANTE: 21 MR. SCHIFF: 22 No. Yes. -- this is 2016 -- Emin Agalarov emails Don, Jr. requesting a meeting at Trump Tower, 202 1 offering dirt on Hillary Clinton on part of what he 2 describes as a Russian Government effort to help the 3 Trump campaign. 4 what Professor Mifsud was talking about, dirt on 5 Hillary Clinton. Did you ever discuss that June overture by 6 7 That sounds, obviously, a lot like the Russians to the Trump campaign with your husband? MS. MANGIANTE: 8 I think we were just 9 commenting that he doesn't know what happened to the 10 other ones, you know, he just knows what happened to 11 him. 12 was -MR. SCHIFF: 13 14 He doesn't know much about it at all. Because it But when it became public, and it was a big deal, obviously -- 15 MS. MANGIANTE: 16 MR. SCHIFF: Yeah, yeah, I know -- -- when it became public that, 17 hey, there was this Trump Tower meeting, and here are 18 these emails, and the President's son is falsely 19 claiming it is about adoptions, and -- so when that 20 became public, do you know what your husband's reaction 21 was? 22 Mifsud was talking about"? Did he say, "Well, maybe that is what Professor 203 MS. MANGIANTE: 1 Yeah, it was -- basically, we 2 were commenting that it didn't show to him an email. 3 You know? 4 know. 5 -- I think we are talking about other people o ffering 6 emails in this second case. I don't know if -- maybe -- I don't Mifsud was not the same person. MR. SCHIFF: 7 8 Maybe. I mean we are Well, I am just interested in what your husband's reaction was when it became public. MS. MANGIANTE: 9 Yeah, it was -- I think it 10 was just commenting that Mifsud had never shown him any 11 emails or -- it was not such a, you know -- I can't -MR. SCHIFF: 12 13 Did he have any reaction, though, to the revelation of the Trump Tower meeting? MS. MANGIANTE: 14 George is trying to -- as I 15 said, also, he thinks his cooperation is a little piece 16 in a puzzle, and we are all waiting to know what has 17 happened. 18 necessarily -- he doesn't feel it is reflected, and 19 other people just observing as an external -- with an 20 external eye, as well, sometimes, because just -- it is 21 really -- 22 And his personal experience doesn't MR. SWALWELL: Is George still cooperating 204 1 with the FBI and Department of Justice? MS. MANGIANTE: 2 No, now it is over, because 3 he has been -- set the date for sentencing. 4 cooperation is over. MR. SWALWELL: 5 So But, I mean, is he -- when he 6 is sentenced, will he be sentenced as someone who was 7 cooperative, or did he break off the cooperation 8 agreement? MS. MANGIANTE: 9 MR. SCHIFF: 10 No, no, he did cooperate. Have you had any contact with 11 the majority on our committee? 12 participate, but -MS. MANGIANTE: 13 We invited them to Yes, I know. I was at the 14 beginning represented by pro bono attorney who let me 15 down because I took the initiative to contact you 16 directly. 17 majority. 18 And I -- on his own initiative, invited the I have been in touch with the lawyer, a 19 lawyer from the majority committee, who told me that it 20 was a volunteer, that I didn't have to go if I didn't 21 want to, and that for the Republicans the investigation 22 is over, so there is no reason why they should talk to 205 1 me. 2 MR. SWALWELL: 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 MR. SWALWELL: 5 I don't remember the name. If I tell you the name, would you -MS. MANGIANTE: 6 7 Who was that? The lawyer of the -- he said he -- 8 MR. SWALWELL: 9 MS. MANGIANTE: 10 the name. 11 recently called. 13 coming in. 14 questions. I can't remember I just Well, we want to thank you for We appreciate your answering all of our Yes. 15 Possibly. Again, maybe I have his number. MR. SCHIFF: 12 Was it Kash Patel? If I could, we have a vote, so we are 16 going to go vote. I am going to leave you with my 17 wonderful staff. 18 but we shouldn't be keeping you that much longer. We have a few remaining questions, And you are free to discuss your testimony as 19 20 you like. And we appreciate the participation and your 21 cooperation with us, as well as your husband's 22 cooperation with the special counsel. 206 1 MS. MANGIANTE: 2 MR. SCHIFF: 3 MS. MANGIANTE: 4 7 : 10 Thank you very much. It was Feel free to eat. I had to eat something. (A brief recess was taken.) : 8 9 So we thank you. a pleasure meeting you. 5 6 I hope it was helpful. We can go back on the record. you know, I am . This is my colleague, . 11 : Nice to meet you. 12 : Do you recall who your husband 13 communicated with during the transition? 14 MS. MANGIANTE: : 15 I don't. And during the transition did he 16 expect -- was still hoping to work for the Trump 17 Administration? 18 19 20 21 22 As MS. MANGIANTE: : Mm-hmm. Sorry. Was your husband hoping to work in the Trump Administration? MS. MANGIANTE: : Yeah, he was. He was. Do you recall if he was in 207 1 communications with officials in the transition team 2 about employment? MS. MANGIANTE: 3 : 4 5 MS. MANGIANTE: 7 didn't even know him. 8 him. : 9 : 13 inauguration. 14 you? Around the time of the Yes. What did he mention about that meeting? MS. MANGIANTE: 18 22 Mm-hmm. Do you -- has George mentioned that to : 16 21 I knew According to public reports, your MS. MANGIANTE: 15 20 I really I mean I knew him, yes. MS. MANGIANTE: 12 19 I don't know. husband met with the Greek defense minister. 11 17 Do you know if your husband participated in any travel during the transition? 6 10 I don't remember. It was in Athens. It was in Athens. : Yes. MS. MANGIANTE: Just told me that. So it was just him mentioning the political personality of his 208 1 country he met with -- he mentioned this person, as 2 well. 3 the meeting. But he didn't tell me anything specific about : 4 Okay. The public reporting 5 indicated that Steve Bannon and Reince Priebus, among 6 others, attended, as well. 7 that? MS. MANGIANTE: 8 9 did. Did your husband mention No, not to me. Or maybe he I don't remember. : 10 The Greek defense ministry, on 11 the website, on Inauguration Day, posted information 12 about the staff of the new President. 13 names listed is your husband. 14 that, that press reporting? MS. MANGIANTE: 15 16 And among the Do you recall seeing No, it was January 2017. was not following that closely. : 17 Yes. At that time in January was 18 Mr. Papadopoulos still hoping to work with the 19 administration? MS. MANGIANTE: 20 21 22 I I did not really know him at the time. : Right. 209 : 1 Yes. Are you aware of your 2 husband's travel abroad during the election? 3 spoken to you about his travel to, for example, Israel, 4 as well -MS. MANGIANTE: 5 : 6 : 8 9 10 Yes. -- as travel to Greece? MS. MANGIANTE: 7 Has he Yes. Is it your understanding that he did so in his capacity as a Trump campaign foreign policy advisor? MS. MANGIANTE: 11 I -- yeah. I think he was 12 attending the big -- he mentioned this big LNG 13 conference in Israel I think he was attending as a 14 Trump campaign advisor. : 15 16 of 2016 -MS. MANGIANTE: 17 18 His meetings in Israel in March Exactly, that is what I was referring to. : 19 Okay. Do you know whether he 20 provided written or oral read-outs of his travels 21 abroad and his meetings during his travels back to the 22 campaign? 210 MS. MANGIANTE: 1 2 : : 5 That is what he told me. That is what he told you. MS. MANGIANTE: 6 : transition period. He was not acting like a Just quickly on the presidential You mentioned that you were not certain who he communicated with. By chance did he mention whether or not he 11 12 communicated with -- and these are people that he 13 communicated with before the election -- General 14 Michael Flynn? 15 he had been in touch with Michael Flynn -- : 17 21 22 Yes. -- during the transition? MS. MANGIANTE: 18 20 Do you know whether he mentioned that MS. MANGIANTE: 16 19 The -- freelancer, no. 8 10 Everything he did was approved? MS. MANGIANTE: 4 9 But I know it was approved, everything he did. 3 7 I don't know. I think he -- yes, I think he did. : He did? MS. MANGIANTE: : He mentioned he did. Do you know -- 211 1 MS. MANGIANTE: : 2 3 I recall -- my memory -- Right. MS. MANGIANTE: I don't -- if I am wrong -- 4 but I recall he told me he was in touch with Michael 5 Flynn during the transition. : 6 7 8 Do you know about what? MS. MANGIANTE: : 9 10 During the transition. I don't. You don't. MS. MANGIANTE: Steve Bannon? I don't know. I mean I know 11 that he was in touch with Michael Flynn. Now I can't 12 remember exactly if it was during the transition or -- 13 Michael Flynn I seem to remember it only was in touch 14 during the transition with him. 15 : Okay -- 16 : And Michael Flynn, during the 17 transition, was named as President Trump's National 18 Security Advisor. 19 on the national security team? 20 Was Mr. Papadopoulos hoping to work MS. MANGIANTE: Okay. I don't know. 21 thought you were telling me. 22 have such details on the whole -- work, I mean. I Unfortunately, I don't I know 212 1 it general. : 2 And then these are just a few 3 more questions following up on statements made during 4 the -- during your interview. Do you remember the name of the Israeli 5 6 businessman or national -- who approached Mr. 7 Papadopoulos? MS. MANGIANTE: 8 9 : 12 19 22 You were talking about the June : Yes, that is right. I have the full name, yes. I am a bit scared to give it to you. : We can arrange for the name to be provided separately to us. MS. MANGIANTE: : 20 21 : MS. MANGIANTE: 17 18 I -- 2017 -- 14 16 You don't have a full name? MS. MANGIANTE: 11 15 I remember Charles something. 10 13 Mm-hmm. Outside of the -- MS. MANGIANTE: the record? Can I give you -- Exactly. Can I give you off 213 : 1 MS. MANGIANTE: 2 3 : So let's -- we will do Did George ever mention the name Dmitri Simes to you? MS. MANGIANTE: 8 9 Okay. that right after the end of this interview. 6 7 I want to give you of f the record. 4 5 Off the record, sure. No. Who is -- this is like the FBI interview. : 10 He is involved in the Council for 11 the National Interest, the organization that hosted the 12 first foreign policy speech that the members asked you 13 about. 14 Finally, you mentioned at one point in the 15 interview that when George Papadopoulos learned that 16 Mifsud was affiliated with -- 17 MS. MANGIANTE: 18 (The interview was interrupted.) 19 20 : Sorry, excuse me. Sure, I will repeat it. So the question was in the course of the 21 interview at one point you mentioned when George 22 learned that Mifsud was affiliated with, and then you 214 1 didn't finish the sentence. 2 sentence, do you remember what you were trying to say? 3 MS. MANGIANTE: : 4 5 6 If you recall that Western intelligence. And when you say that, is that because of the self-published book by Mr. Roh? MS. MANGIANTE: No, not only, just based on 7 the book about his connection to the Link Campus, so 8 the Italian Government I know -- so to his own -- I 9 mean it -- his own statements about his -- being member 10 of the Clinton Foundation, it would make much -- no 11 sense him to be Russian agent trying to sell dirt on 12 Hillary Clinton unless his -- I don't know. 13 14 Actually, to be honest with you, I am just sharing with you my perception. : 15 16 Of course. MS. MANGIANTE: I don't think my statements 17 are -- can be taken as an absolute, you know, truth, 18 absolutely not. 19 of ties with the -- 20 That definitely -- I know it is a lot : Right. Although it appears also 21 from the factual information that has emerged and the 22 statement of information that relates to your husband, 215 1 and information subsequent to that, that Mr. Mifsud 2 obviously also had connections to Russian individuals. 3 MS. MANGIANTE: Yes. But my guess now is 4 that he was pretending to really have important -- why 5 he could not introduce to George any substantial 6 Russian national official, why introduce to a student 7 and a think tank young boy -- 8 9 : And this is -- to clarify -- MS. MANGIANTE: No, that is -- I mean I know 10 why we are -- the statement of offense, we have an 11 impression, we had the impression that things are 12 sometimes much bigger than they are when we see the -- 13 behind the -- these quotes about these people. 14 the person, you know? 15 : Right. Who is So just to clarify that 16 statement, part of this impression is the result of the 17 fact that, despite these contacts, despite these 18 emails, the meetings that were being sought with the 19 Russian leadership ultimately never came about? 20 MS. MANGIANTE: Not only -- even when he was 21 talking about emails, he never showed that email. He 22 never -- I mean he was -- that is why I used this term, 216 1 2 gossip, because it was talking. Now I understand this information was not 3 public yet at the time, so it must -- might have some 4 sort of source. 5 intention -- but today I am still unclear to me. 6 never materialized in anything, in any action in my -- 7 that can be likely to cause any sort of collusion, at 8 least on George's side. 9 other people did. But still, he didn't -- whatever his : 10 They As I said, I don't know what You mentioned earlier that Mr. 11 Mifsud told you that he was connected to the Clinton 12 Foundation. 13 MS. MANGIANTE: Yes, I -- not to me, 14 personally. We were, as I said, in a room with other 15 people from the Socialist group. 16 connected with Clinton Foundation. : 17 18 19 20 21 22 And he said he was I just want to clarify. You heard directly -MS. MANGIANTE: : -- from him. MS. MANGIANTE: : Yes, I heard it. I heard it. Okay. Did you convey that 217 1 2 3 information during your interview with the FBI? MS. MANGIANTE: I don't think they asked me. : 4 5 I don't recall. Did you tell them that? MS. MANGIANTE: No, I don't think I did. 6 First of all, I started to refresh my memory about this 7 character after the interview with the FBI, you know? 8 And I started to contact Pittella, and they say, "Oh, 9 we remember he was telling this," you know. 10 people, that is how it works. : 11 12 Other I mean -- Sure. MS. MANGIANTE: -- it is -- this person had 13 no importance for me until the moment his name came up 14 with the FBI. 15 I mean I thought it was a shady person that 16 is not transparent in any way, but I was not -- I 17 didn't have, you know, a red flag on him. 18 surprised to know that it could be such an important 19 player in this -- in America. 20 21 22 : I was very When did you remember that he had told you this about the Clinton Foundation? MS. MANGIANTE: I don't recall. I recall to 218 1 -- I heard this information sometimes in the past, I 2 don't know, through somebody else, like -- technically, 3 the last time I heard it is when he, on the press, 4 Italian Republic, said Clinton -- it was for Clinton. 5 He would say it was for Clinton. : 6 7 to the press -MS. MANGIANTE: 8 9 Oh, so you heard Mr. Mifsud say No, no, no. There are two different contexts. So in one context I remember to hear Mifsud 10 11 saying that he was affiliated to the Clintons' 12 foundation. 13 events that took place at European Parliament. 14 recall exactly the date in which he said that, you 15 know. 16 database, my brain. But it was probably during one of the It is really difficult for me now. I can't It is not a But is -- I remember also that in the 17 18 interview that he granted to La Republica, when they 19 said why you were offering Papadopoulos those emails, 20 he himself said, "I am Clintoniano, I am affiliated to 21 Clinton. 22 Why would I do that?" Maybe I should find those articles for you. 219 : 1 Oh, it is okay. I just wondered 2 if -- have you gone back to the FBI with additional 3 information that you have recalled? 4 MS. MANGIANTE: No, I didn't. But they have 5 my -- I mean I always been quite open to tell them. 6 And I think they knew, because -- I think they knew at 7 the time. 8 9 10 The FBI didn't -- I don't remember the context of the interview, but I just answered what they asked me, so -: 11 I think just on a final note, 12 part of the timeline, in terms of understanding the 13 Russian government-directed hacking operation, when the 14 emails were removed from the various individuals that 15 were attacked, and then when things were publicized -- 16 that is outlined in the recent indictment on July 13 17 this year -- of the various Russian intelligence 18 officers -- yes. 19 So in that it lays out a very detailed 20 timeline of when the first -- they are called spear 21 phishing attacks occurred in Russian -- in -- against 22 Clinton campaign officials, including the chairman of 220 1 the Clinton campaign. 2 Russian operators for the first time started to put 3 information out in the public about these matters. 4 That is -- that timeline has the hacking occurring in 5 March, middle of March, 2016. 6 conversation between Mr. Mifsud and your husband. MS. MANGIANTE: 7 : 8 9 10 Yeah. And it has the public release beginning of June. So after that conversation. MS. MANGIANTE: Yeah. Just one second. Just -- I need to take a pain killer so I don't feel -- 13 (Pause.) 14 MS. MANGIANTE: 15 So prior to the through the website of DCLEAKS.COM occurring in the 11 12 And then at what point the I see that isn't -- sorry, just -: 16 Take your time. 17 (Pause.) 18 MS. MANGIANTE: Okay. Now, so you were -- 19 you referred to the documents, or the -- yeah, that was 20 an interesting -- 21 22 : But that lays out a timeline of both the hacking operation and the -- 221 MS. MANGIANTE: 1 2 started on -- 3 4 Yes. And you will see it is laid : Did Mr. Papadopoulos attend the inauguration? MS. MANGIANTE: 7 : 8 : 10 I don't know. Did he go to any events? MS. MANGIANTE: 11 I think he did. Do you know who he attended with? MS. MANGIANTE: 9 12 : out in detail. 5 6 So the hacking operation I wasn't -- I think he did, yeah. : 13 I think I missed this in the 14 conversation earlier. 15 pay Papadopoulos $30,000 a month? MS. MANGIANTE: 16 17 : 22 Some time before I even met During the election? MS. MANGIANTE: 19 21 When was that? George, some time in 2016. 18 20 When did Mr. Millian offer to During -- I don't -- I really don't know. : You don't know whether it was during the election or during the -- 222 MS. MANGIANTE: 1 : 2 4 I -- exactly. I don't know. : Okay. : Thank you again for all of your (Pause.) 5 6 7 -- transition? MS. MANGIANTE: 3 I don't know. time. I really appreciate it. 8 MS. MANGIANTE: 9 (Whereupon, at 3:23 p.m., the interview was 10 Thank you. adjourned.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 * * * * *