UNCLASSIFIED TESTIMONY OF ERIK PRINCE Thursday, November 39, 2617 U.S. House of Representatives, Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, Washington, D.C. The committee met, pursuant to call, at 3:85 in Room the Capitol, the Honorable Mike Conaway presiding. Present: Representatives Conaway, King, LoBiondo, Rooney, Ros-Lehtinen, Turner, Nenstrup, Stewart, Crawford, Gowdy, Stefanik, Hurd, Schitt, Himes, Speier, Quigley, Swalwell, Castro, and Heck. Also Present: Representative Calvert. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED CHAIRMAN CONANAY: All right. A quorum being present, I call the meeting to order. I'd like to welcome our witness, Mr. Erik Prince. Thank you for speaking with us today. As a reminder to our members, we are and will remain in open session. This hearing will address only unclassified matters. Although the hearing is closed, a transcript will be produced and released to the public. Before we begin, I'd like to take care of a few housekeeping matters. First, without objection, I move that each side shall be given 36 minutes to ask Mr. Prince questions. At each 69-minute interval, I will ask unanimous consent to continue the alternating 38-minute rounds._ Without further objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the committee at any time. At this time, I would like the witness to raise his right hand. Thank you, sir. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you give before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? MR. PRINCE: I do. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: Thank you. Mr. Prince, you may be seated. Before I give you the opportunity to make a brief opening statement, I want to cover some basic information as well as provide UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED you with ground rules regarding today's hearing. Let the record reflect that the committee sent you a letter on May 17, 2617, requesting that you produce documents and appear before the committee for a voluntary interview. I will note that you have agreed to voluntarily testify in this setting, and we appreciate you being here today. A transcript of today's hearing will be made public. I also understand you've just provided the committee with responsiveldocuments this afternoon and that copies have been provided to both the minority and majority staff. Mr. Prince, questions during today's hearing may seem basic to you, but that's because we need to clearly establish facts relevant to our investigation. Please do not assume we know any facts that you have previously disclosed as part of any other interview or review. We ask that you give complete and fulsome replies to our questions based on your best recollection. If a question is unclear or you're uncertain in your response, please let us know. If you do not know the answer to the question or cannot remember, just simply say so. If you need a break, please let us know. As you know, this hearing will be transcribed. There's a reporter making a record of these proceedings so we can easily consult a written compilation of your answers. Because the reporter cannot record gestures, we ask that you answer verbally. If you forget to do this, you may be reminded to do so. You may also be asked to spell certain terms or unusual phrases. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED You're entitled to have a lawyer present for this interview, though you are not required to do so. Do you have counsel or anticipate counsel? MR. PRINCE: No. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: All right. The answer is no. Finally, you're reminded that you are providing testimony under oath and that it is unlawful to deliberately provide false information to Members of Congress or staff. Before we proceed to your opening statement and then to questions, I will recognize my friend and colleague, Mr. Schiff, for any opening remarks that he would like to make. Adam? MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome to the committee. We are in receipt of the documents that you provided. It's going to take us some time to go through them. I do want to raise a concern -- this is more a committee concern than a witness concern -- with scheduling witnesses for testimony before we have documents. The document request is now some months old. It's incumbent on the committee to follow up on the document requests. And it severely constrains our ability to be effective when we only receive the documents when the hearing begins. So that a concern we've raised in the past which we wish to raise again. And, with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: Thank you, sir. Mr. Prince, an opening statement in 5 minutes, or are you ready UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED to proceed to questions? MR. PRINCE: Let me start with a brief opening statement. I don't recall receiving any letter from the committee asking for any documents, but I did get a letter from the Senate Intelligence Committee. And so you'll see a cover letter I made to Chairman Burr and Senator Warner. And so they asked for, I would imagine, pretty much the same thing you're looking for. So this production was provided to them prior to Thanksgiving. And, yeah, you're getting the copy today, but it's a fairly easy to read to get through. And we'll go from there. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: All right. I'll recognize Mr. Rooney for 38 minutes. MR. ROONEY: Mr. Prince, hopefully, you know, we are able to get through everything that we need to get through here today so you won't have to come back. So I encourage you, as much information as you can give to this committee, 50'thatuwedon't have to you know, that might be in these documents MR. PRINCE: Sure. MR. ROONEY: -- et cetera, you know, would be of utmost help. My line of questioning is background to start. What role did you play in the Donald Trump for President campaign? MR. PRINCE: I played no official or, really, unofficial role. MR. ROONEY: when you say you played no unofficial role, are you saying that you basically were just a were you a supporter of his -- UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED MR. PRINCE: Sure. I supportedf?m1monetarily. I attended some fundraisers. I wrote some papers on different foreign policy positions and, you know, kicked themluiintO'the adviser-sphereCNIwhat should be done on Middle Eastern or African counterterrorism issues. MR. ROONEY: Who did you give those papers to? MR. PRINCE: Normally, I sent them to Steve Bannon. MR. ROONEY: Did you coordinate that with him, or did you just -- did you assume that that was your point of contact in the campaign? And why? MR. PRINCE: He was the only guy I knew pretty well. I'd known him since a book event back in 2613. MR. ROONEY: So when you say there was no formal role, this was just you were they asking you to write these papers, or were you doing this sort of on your own as just an MR. PRINCE: On my own. MR. RODNEY: Okay. So, aside from writing these papers, donating, supporting in a -- MR. PRINCE: Yard Sign in my yard. MR. ROONEY: Yeah. So there was no other formal communications or contact with the campaign? MR. PRINCE: Correct. MR. RODNEY: Did you have any contact with Mr. Trump himself as a candidate? MR. PRINCE: I mett??ionce atzafundraiser photo?op prior'UJthe election. That's all. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED MR. ROONEY: I want to focus in on a meeting in the Seychelles on -- I believe it was a January 11, 2817, meeting. Can you tell me about that and why it was reported supposedly that you presented yourself as an unofficial representative of Mr. Trump? If that 5 true. MR. PRINCE: Well, I will read from the letter I sent to the Senate side. On or around January 11, 2917, I traveled to the Seychelles to meet with some potential customers from the UAE for the logistics business of which I am chairman. After the meeting, they mentioned a guy I should meet who was also in town to see them, a Kirill Dmitriev from Russia, who ran some sort of hedge fund. I met him in the hotel bar, and we chatted on topics ranging from oil and commodity prices to how much his country wished for resumption of normal trade relations with the -- relationship with the USA. I remember telling him that if Franklin Roosevelt could work with Josef Stalin to defeat Nazi fascism, then certainly Donald Trump could work with Vladimir Putin to defeat Islamic fascism. The meeting ended after a maximum of 36 minutes. I've had no communications or dealings with him or any of his colleagues before or after that encounter last January. That's really all there is to say about that meeting. MR. RODNEY: When you met with Mr. Dmitriev, were you under the impression that he was a representative of the Russian Government? MR. PRINCE: I just knew that he was a Russian fund manager. I didn't know what level of ownership or control of the Russian Government UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED or private investors there was in Russia. MR. ROONEY: Was the point of that meeting for you to represent the Trump campaign or Mr. Trump in any way? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. ROONEY: So you were doing this in your own capacity, for your business, to meet with him? MR. PRINCE: The Emiratis I'd just met with previously said, there's an interesting guy from Russia you should meet if you have any business in the commodity space, which I do. I look at minerals and oil and gas. He said, you should meet himdrink. MR. ROONEY: So this notion that you were there representing the Trump campaign is not true. MR. PRINCE: That is correct. MR. ROONEY: As much as you can help us on the next following questions, I would appreciate it. You might not be able to. If you don't, you can just say'you don't know. But we have parameters of this investigation. Our job in this committee is to write a report to try to assist the Intelligence Community do a better job. As much as you can assist in those four parameters and lend any insight and if you don't have any based on what our role here and what your role here is in testifying, so far as you can testify, we would appreciate that. The first parameter is, what Russian cyber activity and other active measures were directed against the United States and its allies? Do you have any input on that bullet? UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED MR. PRINCE: Zero. Not my field of expertise. MR. ROONEY: The second one is, did the Russian active measures include links between Russia and individuals associatedeith political campaigns or any other U.S. persons? MR. PRINCE: I have no idea. MR. ROONEY: Well, this is probably the biggest reason why you're here, I would assume, is that there's an inference that you are acting on behalf of the Russian or the Trump campaign and meeting with Russian people, specifically this Dmitriev guy. And so, as much as you can lend any insight to this bullet, if anything more than what you just said, I think that this is, you know, a large reason?why'you're here. MR. PRINCE: Well, here's what I don't understand about why I'm here. If there's all this rightful concern if there was actual didn't happen until almost 2 months more than 2 months after the election. So if there was all this collusion, why would there even need to be any other followup meetings? So I don't get that, timeline?wise. What really bothers me and what I would hope the Intelligence Committee is doing is questioning why Americans that were caught up in waves of signals intelligence, why on Earth would The Washington Post be running an article on any meeting that a private citizen, me, was having inaaforeign country? That's illegal. That iseapolitical abuse of the intelligence infrastructure. And that is really UNCLASSIFIED 10 UNCLASSIFIED dangerous, especially as this committee and the Congress thinks about reauthorizing very wide-ranging intelligence authorities to dig into That'swhat I have an issue with. MR. RODNEY: Well, I'm sure we'll get more into that as we move on. Let me finish the bullets, if I could. What was the U.S. Government's response to these Russian active measures, and what do we need to do to protect ourselves and our allies in the future? Do you have any input on that? MR. PRINCE: N0. Sorry. MR. ROONEY: Finally, what possible leaks of classified information took place related to the Intelligence Community assessment of these matters? Do you have any input that you want to share with us on that bullet? MR. PRINCE: Well, the only way The Washington Post ran an article some months later was because it was provided by someone in the government to them. Okay? And there's no valid reason that The Washington Post should be getting those. So that is a leak of intelligence information, obviously signals intelligence, of private citizens, Americans, moving around or doing business abroad. So there isrkaquestion, a leak of your intelligence to an outside party. MR. ROONEY: Do you have any idea who provided that leak? MR. PRINCE: I've seen a number of reports that it was members of the Obama National Security Council. UNCLASSIFIED ll UNCLASSIFIED MR. RODNEY: Do you have anything to corroborate that? MR. PRINCE: I have no firsthand knowledge of that, no. MR. ROONEY: Again, I'm going to ask you about collusion you brought that up -- coordination, conspiracy, with regard to the Trump campaign. If you don't know the answer to this, just say you don't know. With regard to any role that you played with regard to helping Mr. Trump, aside from financial or writing a couple papers for Mr. Bannon or attending a fundraiser, did you see any evidence of collusion, conspiracy, or coordination between the Russian Government and the Trump campaign during any interaction you had with the Trump campaign? MR. PRINCE: Zero. MR. ROONEY: Mr. Chairman, [don't haveawn/other:questions, and I don't know if anybody else on our side does -- wants to weigh in. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: All right. Ne'll move to Mr. Schiff for 36 minutes. MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We still haven't had a chance, really, to go through the documents yet, but hopefully we will prior to the conclusion of our hearing today. On May 17th, Mr. Prince, Mr. Conaway and I sent you a letter inviting you to testify before the committee and requesting documents. Is it your testimony that you never received that letter? MR. PRINCE: I don't recall receiving that. Was it sent by mail or by email or -- MR. SCHIFF: It says via certified mail, electronic mail, and UNCLASSIFIED 12 UNCLASSIFIED facsimile. And in addition to the letter itself is an email that also makes reference to the letter that was sent to an email address which I assume is with your business. MR. PRINCE: Do you recall what email address that was? MR. SCHIFF: I do. This is an open hearing. Do you want me to use the email address? MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. SCHIFF: But, in any event, you don't recall -- MR. PRINCE: No, I'm sorry. I don?t. MR. SCHIFF: When was the first time that you do recall you were contacted by the committee? MR. PRINCE: Kash Patel. MR. SCHIFF: And when was that? Kash Patel, a staff member of the majority? MR. PRINCE: Yes. MR. SCHIFF: And when did he contact you? MR. PRINCE: Some weeks ago. I would say weeks, not months. MR. SCHIFF: So, notwithstanding that our letter went out in May, the first time you recall being contacted by the committee was only weeks ago. MR. PRINCE: Yes. MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Patel ask you to produce documents in advance of your testimony? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SCHIFF: What did Mr. Patel ask you to do then? UNCLASSIFIED 13 UNCLAS I FI ED MR. PRINCE: He just said to come in for an interview. MR. SCHIFF: Did you have any subsequent communication with any of the members or staff of the committee? MR. PRINCE: I talked to I had seen Chairman Nunes. He had talked about coming in for a hearing. And one of his staff members was there as well. That's the only communications I've had. MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Nunes get into the substance of your testimony in any way? MR. PRINCE: It was part of the investigation into the unmasking of intelligence on Americans. That's what he talked to me about. MR. SCHIFF: That's what the chairman related to you was the purpose of your being interviewed by us today? MR. PRINCE: He said [should come h1and talk'tof?m1about that. And the next thing I hear -- the next thing I recall is getting a phone call from Kash Patel. MR. SCHIFF: And how soon after your discussion with the chairman did you get the call from Mr. Patel? MR. PRINCE: I don't remember. MR. SCHIFF: So the discussion you had with the chairman was not at a meeting related to the investigation, but that was an in-person discussion you had with the chairman? MR. PRINCE: I was talking to him about Afghanistan. MR. SCHIFF: And, at that point, he tolclyou he1~anted you to come into the committee; that's the first time you learned that the committee wanted you to come and testify. UNCLASS IFIED 14 UNCLASSIFIED MR. PRINCE: Yes. MR. SCHIFF: And, subsequently, Mr. Patel called you. MR. PRINCE: I think so, yes. MR. SCHIFF: Let me begin by asking you about a meeting that was reported in the press to have taken place in December of last year at Trump Tower between representatives of the UAE and Trump campaign officials. Are you aware of the meeting? MR. PRINCE: I read about it in the paper. MR. SCHIFF: I take it from that you were not present at the meeting. MR. PRINCE: I was not present. MR. SCHIFF: Did anyc?ztheloarticipants in that reported meeting ever discuss with you whether they met with representatives of UAE in New York? MR. PRINCE: I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: Nell, isn't that something you would recall if it happened? MR. PRINCE: Well, I don't recall specifically speaking to anyone about a meeting that happened with any Emirati officials in New York. MR. SCHIFF: Let me ask it this way. Did any Trump campaign or transition officials tell you that they met with representatives of the UAE in New York? MR. PRINCE: I think I remember Steve Bannon saying they had met with either Mohammed bin Zayed or someone like that and that he was a great guy. That's all I recall of that conversation. UNCLASSIFIED 15 UNCLASSIFIED MR. SCHIFF: And when did that conversation take place? MR. PRINCE: I don't remember. MR. SCHIFF: Was that prior to your trip to the Seychelles? MR. PRINCE: I don't remember. MR. SCHIFF: And where were you when you had the conversation with Mr. Bannon? MR. PRINCE: No idea. MR. SCHIFF: Was that a conversation with him in person? MR. PRINCE: I don't remember. MR. SCHIFF: So you don't knowiwhether you had this conversation with him over the phone or in person. MR. PRINCE: It could've been in an office. It could've been in a restaurant. I truly don't remember. MR. SCHIFF: But is it your recollection that you had this discussion in person? MR. PRINCE: No. I remember I remember a comment from Steve where he characterized the meeting and he said Mohammed bin Zayed is a great guy. MR. SCHIFF: And in what context did his comment about Mohammed bin Zayed come up? MR. PRINCE: Talking about the challenges of the Middle East, Iranian subversion, Iranian aggression in the area, and how to pacify and stabilize Iraq and Syria and the mess that it's become. MR. SCHIFF: Now, Mohammed bin Zayed, is he known by initials UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED MR. PRINCE: MR. SCHIFF: interview. 16 Correct. That may be easier for me to use during our Prior?tijour conversation witthr. Bannon, is MBZ someone that you had personal acquaintance withMR. MR. .SCHIFF: of business? MR. MR. time? MR . PRINCE: PRINCE: SCHIFF: PRINCE: SCHIFF: PRINCE: PRINCE: SCHIFF: PRINCE: SCHIFF: Yes. Someone you know quite well? I wouldn't say know him well, no. How many times have you met with him? I would say more than 12 times. And you do a significant amount of business with Not anymore. During what period did you do a significant amount I would say not since 2811. And what kind of business did you do prior to that Well, prior'tO'that, I was a government contractor, and I I sold that business and moved to the Middle East and did some consulting and started a fund looking for energy and mineral opportunities to invest in. MR. SCHIFF: And in particular with M82 and UAE, what kind of business did you do with them? MR. PRINCE: MR. SCHIFF: UNCLASSIFIED Mostly ideas on how to make the country safer. And did you do a significant volume of business with 1? UNCLASSIFIED MR. PRINCE: No. It was basically a place to operate from because it's very close, very easy to connect into Africa, very good direct flights. MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Bannon know prior to your conversation that you had done business in MR. PRINCE: I'm sure he reads the paper as well. MR. SCHIFF: Well, in addition to reading the paper, had you ever discussed your work in UAE with Mr. Bannon? I MR. PRINCE: I wrote about -- you know, asliwrite?various policy papers, op?eds, interviews, whatever, I've not been shy about ideas on how to stabilize the area. So he certainly knew I lived there and knew of my relationships. MR. SCHIFF: I think you told my colleague that one of the things you did, to the degree that you had any affiliation with the campaign, was occasionally write policy papers or memos -- MR. PRINCE: Yes. MR. SCHIFF: -- that you provided to the campaign. MR. PRINCE: Right. MR. SCHIFF: Were any of them on the UAE and what role it might play either in the Middle East or vis?a?vis Russia? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SCHIFF: In the conversation that you had with Mr. Bannon in which the meeting with the UAE came up, did he tell you who else was present at the meeting? MR. PRINCE: N0. UNCLASS IFIED 18 UNCLASSIFIED MR. SCHIFF: Did he give you any indication why he thought you might be interested in the fact that he had that meeting? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SCHIFF: Can you tell us any more than the fact that he mentioned the meeting to you? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SCHIFF: Can't recall anything he said about who else might have been there? MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. name come up? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Kushner's name come up? MR. PRINCE: Nope. MR. SCHIFF: So you MR. PRINCE: I mean, not that I recall. I mean, for heaven sakes, I don't track people's whereabouts in specific meetings and times and locations. I wasn't there; it wasn't my meeting. He mentioned that he saw some Emiratis that were concerned about thelWiddle East and what a mess it is. MR. SCHIFF: Did he tell you anything about the circumstances of the meeting, whether this was done with the knowledge and encouragement of the then existing administration or without their knowledge or encouragement? MR. PRINCE: No. I haveruaidea. Although, there's been plenty of media reports about the Obama administration being upset about the UNCLASSI FIED 19 UNCLASSIFIED fact that some Emiratis came to the United States to meet with the incoming administration. I did remember reading that in the paper. That's the extent of my knowledge on it. MR. SCHIFF: But Mr. Bannon didn't go into that with you? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever have a conversation with Mr. Kushner about meeting with the MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever have a conversation with General on that subject? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SCHIFF: Did you have any interaction with General during the campaign? MR. PRINCE: Yeah. I saw him I think I had breakfast with him one time prior to his joining the campaign in any kind of official capacity. It was don't remember the exact date, but:it was before he was any kind of active or traveling with the President, or the then-candidate Trump. And we basically -- I'd never met him before, and I asked for the meeting, and I just wanted to compare world views on the problem sets in Afghanistan and Iraq and Pakistan and Syria. And, you know, there's -- the Obama administration did not leave the world a very peaceful place. There was no shortage of problem areas to go over. MR. SCHIFF: was that your only interaction with General during the campaign? UNCLASSIFIED 20 UNCLASSIFIED MR. PRINCE: That was the only breakfast or sit?down or any kind of meeting I had with him. Other than that, I saw him at a couple of events where Ilnight havenwaved or said hi or just said, "Hang in there, and keep going." That's the only interaction I had with him. MR. SCHIFF: And during any of these interactions, did you discuss with General the U.S. relationship with Russia? MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. SCHIFF: How much interaction did you have with Steve Bannon during the campaign? MR. PRINCE: Well, he's a pretty busy guy, so I would -- it was mostly by a text, a text of encouragement or a certain point to make on a certain issue. Other than that, a few unsolicited policy papers or ideas that I would email to him. That's all. MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Bannon ever text or communicate with you in writing about the UAE in any way? MR. PRINCE: Not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: Apart from the conversation you described with Mr. Bannon, did anyone else ever inform you that a meeting took place between representatives of the campaign or transition team and'the UAE in New York? MR. PRINCE: Not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: During your discussions with Mr. Bannon during the campaign, did you discuss U.S.-Russia relations? MR. PRINCE: I recall a sentiment reflecting that the Russians in regards to fighting Islamic fascism, the Russians don't UNCLASSIFIED 21 UNCLASSIFIED have to be our enemy. MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Bannon ever indicate to you whether he had met with any representatives of the Russian Government? MR. PRINCE: Never indicated anything on that subject. MR. SCHIFF: Or their intermediaries? MR. PRINCE: Never received any information on anything like that, no. MR. SCHIFF: Did anyone affiliated with the campaign or transition team indicate to you that they were engaged in any discussions with the Russians? MR. PRINCE: No idea. MR. SCHIFF: Through any channels, front or back or otherwise? MR. PRINCE: Front side, back side, no side, never got any indication of anything like that. MR. SCHIFF: The trip to the Seychelles that you took in January of this year, how did that first come about? MR. PRINCE: What do you mean? MR. SCHIFF: In other words, you don't live in the Seychelles, correct? MR. PRINCE: Correct. MR. SCHIFF: At some point, you made the decision to go to the Seychelles. On what basis did you decide to go the Seychelles for that January trip? MR. PRINCE: I was invited there to come talk about some potential business in the future. UNCLASSIFIED 22 UNCLAS I FIED MR. SCHIFF: And who invited you to discuss that business? MR. PRINCE: One of the members of the royal court. MR. SCHIFF: Nhich royal court? MR. PRINCE: The people that work for Mohammed bin Zayed, MBZ. MR. SCHIFF: And what particular business did they invite you to come discuss? MR. PRINCE: Everything from security issues to mineral issues to even bauxite. MR. SCHIFF: And how did they communicate or extend this invitation to you? MR. PRINCE: I don't remember. MR. SCHIFF: Did they send you a prOposal in writing? MR. PRINCE: What do you mean? MR. SCHIFF: Nell, did they write to you and invite you to come to the Seychelles to discuss doing Further business with the MR. PRINCE: I did not receive a letter, no. MR. SCHIFF: Did you receive a call? And if you received a call, who did you receive the call from? MR. PRINCE: I don't remember who called me. I think it was one of his schedulers. And just said, "His Highness would like to see you if you can come out to the Seychelles." MR. SCHIFF: And was that the extent of the request, or were you given more information about why they wanted to visit with you? MR. PRINCE: That was all. MR. SCHIFF: They just said, "His Majesty would like to see you. UNCLASS IFIED 23 UNCLASSIFIED Will you meet him in the Seychelles?" MR. PRINCE: His Highness. MR. SCHIFF: His Highness. And that was enough to say yes? MR. PRINCE: Uh-huh. MR. SCHIFF: And how long prior to the trip did you receive this call? MR. PRINCE: I don't know. I was scheduled to be out in the Middle East in Africa, anyway. I mean, I just got back from a trip to Atrica at 7 o'clock this morning, so I move around a lot. MR. SCHIFF: Well, if, as reported, there was aIDecember meeting in New York between representatives of the UAE and Mr. Bannon, could this call have been received by you after that December meeting and prior to the January 11th trip? MR. PRINCE: Wait a minute. Say that again, please. MR. SCHIFF: If'thelneeting'that Mr. Bannon describedix)you took place in New York with the UAE in December and your trip to the Seychelles or your meeting in the Seychelles took place in mid?January, did you receive the call between the Bannon meeting and the trip? MR. PRINCE: I don't remember. MR. SCHIFF: Did you have any indication in the call you received from the representative of M82 that it was a followup to the discussion that Mr. Bannon had had? MR. PRINCE: No. MR.SCHIFF: ??and [realize you can't be precise about this how long after the call did you leave UNCLASSIFIED 24 UNCLASSIFIED tor the Seychelles? MR. PRINCE: I don't remember, but, like I said, I move around a lot between the Far East, the Middle East, Europe, and Africa. I spend entirely too much of my life in an airplane. So it would not have been unusual. I mean, most people don't travel that much; I travel a lot. And so moving those kind of distances on short notice is not unheard of. MR. SCHIFF: And would the UAE have made the arrangements for where you would be staying in the Seychelles? MR. PRINCE: Yeah. I stayed at the same hotel where the rest of the UAE group was. MR. SCHIFF: And where was that? MR. PRINCE: It was a very nice hotel. I don't remember the name. MR. SCHIFF: Can you give us any description of it that we could identify the hotel? MR. PRINCEleast a four-star, nice place. MR. SCHIFF: Well, that may not narrow it down very much. I've never been to the Seychelles, but MR. PRINCE: That was my First time 351N911. And it was probably a half-hour drive from the airport. MR. SCHIFF: S0(k3you have records, Mr. Prince -- they might be credit card records or phone records from your stay in the Seychelles that would help us identify where you were staying? MR. PRINCE: I don't know. I think your friends at The UNCLASSIFIED 25 UNCLASSIFIED Washington Post reported it as the Four Seasons, but I don't even remember if that was the place. MR. SCHIFF: Well, I'd rather rely on your records. MR. PRINCE: NO, I -- MR. SCHIFF: Will you check to see if you have any credit card history or other statements that would be able to tell us where you stayed? MR. PRINCE: I will -- I will check. MR. SCHIFF: And who made the logistical arrangements for where and when you would meet once you were at the Seychelles? MR. PRINCE: The same people that called to schedule. Therelwas a guy that picked me up at the airport and took me to the venue, and I stayed overnight and left the next morning. MR. SCHIFF: And would someone on your staff have been in touch with someone from the UAE to arrange for all that? MR. PRINCE: No. They would've called me. MR. SCHIFF: So they would've told you when to arrive in the Seychelles and what? How would this work? I don't remember how exactly it happened this time, MR. PRINCE: but they would've said, hey, if you can make it on or around this date, please come see His Highness. MR. SCHIFF: So tell us what happened after you arrived then. They picked you up at the airport? MR. PRINCE: Yes. I Cleared customs and went to the airport or went to the hotel and had a met with him for probably UNCLASSIFIED 26 UNCLASSIFIED an hour. And, at the end, one of the entourage says, "Hey, by the way, there's this Russian guy that we've dealt with in the past. He's here also to see someone from the Emirati delegation. And you should meet him. He'd be an interesting guy for you to know, since you're doing a lot in the oil and gas and mineral space." 50, as I recall, I met him, this same guy I talked about, Kirill Dmitriev. Met him down in the bar after dinner, and we talked for 36 minutes over a beer, and that was it. MR. SCHIFF: Now, the meeting you had prior to that with the representative of the UAE, or representatives, how long did that last? You said an hour? MR. PRINCE: Probably an hour. MR. SCHIFF: And the meeting with Mr. Dmitriev lasted a half an hour? MR. PRINCE: Maximum. It was probably more like 26 minutes. MR. SCHIFF: So approximately a third of your time was meeting with the Russian and the other two-thirds was meeting with the UAE representatives? MR. PRINCE: Sure. Ne're splitting hairs, but MR. SCHIFF: And what was the naturteof your discussion well, first of all, if you could tell us who From the UAE was represented at that meeting. MR. PRINCE: I don't remember all the names. MR. SCHIFF: Nell, tell us the names you do remember. UNCLASS IFIED 27 UNCLASSIFIED MR. PRINCE: Nell, Mohammed bin Zayed was there and a couple of his brothers, but I'm not sure which ones. MR. SCHIFF: NaS'that unusual,tx)havelWohammed bin Zayed present himself? Did that indicate a certain level of importance that he attached to the meeting? MR. PRINCE: Like I said, I've met him a number of times before. I hadn't seen him for some time, so we were talking about a wide range of issues. And various brothers and entourage people were moving in and out of the group. It was in an outdoor setting. MR. SCHIFF: So you hadn't talked with him for years and then -- MR. PRINCE: No, I didn't say years. I said for some time. MR. SCHIFF: For some time. And more or less out of the blue you get a call that he wants to meet with you in the Seychelles? MR. PRINCE: Well, I'll be direct about it. I think I think the Obama administration went out of their way to tarnish my ability ix3do business in theiniddle East, and, wittla different administration in town, they probably figured that that downdraft wasn't present anymore. So I'd been wanting to see him for some time, because there's a lot of problems in the Middle East that I think some innovation could put those fires outsurprise that the meeting happened. And those are the kind of things we talked about, whether it's Somalia and terrorism there or Libya, Nigeria, and of course all the places that are even closer to the UAE. MR. SCHIFF: So it's your view that the reason that the and UNCLASS IFIED 28 UNCLASSIFIED correct me, I'm going to get this wrong. "His Majesty" was it? MR. PRINCE: Highness. MR. SCHIFF: His Highness. Excuse me. The reason His Highness wanted to get together with you was because he felt, with the new administration, it would be easier for him to do business with you? Or was it more that he felt that you had a connection to the incoming administration? MR. PRINCE: I think well, Imwould suspect that it was because the situations in the Middle East had grown very difficult and they were looking for other solutions to some of the problems that the Obama administration had not been able to find solutions for. MR. SCHIFF: Did they also View you as entre to the incoming administration? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SCHIFF: You don't think your connection with any of the Trump campaign, Mr. Bannon, or any of the other relationships you had had anything to do with why you got that call after not hearing from the Prince for some time? MR. PRINCE: Well, I have never purported or positioned to having any great access to the Trump administration. Was I happy he won? Absolutely. But, you know, I never pursued a staff position there, I never pursued any kind of leadership role. But as a taxpayer and a parent, figuring out ways to and these endless wars that America is involved in, you bet I was I'm happy to have anybody hear my voice on that. UNCLASSI FIED 29 UNCLASSIFIED MR. SCHIFF: And is it your view, Mr. Prince, that the presence of the Russian state banker was a mere coincidence, that this was not part of why the UAE invited you to the Seychelles? MR. PRINCE: Well, let's just say when you're runningaacountry, a very successful, affluent country, there's a lot of people waiting to see or to meet with leadership. So, you know, whether they do business with Russia or China or Europe or whatever, they have very good relationships with a lot of other countries, so it's not a surprise that other leaders, other people from other countries would've been waiting to see or having met with any of that leadership. MR. SCHIFF: So none of the UAE delegation, including the Prince, gave you any reason to believe that part of the reason they wanted you to come to Seychelles was to meet Mr. Dmitriev? MR. PRINCE: Not at all. No. MR. SCHIFF: What did you discuss during the first hour of your meeting with the Prince and the UAE delegation? MR. PRINCE: Like I said, we discussed the problems of terrorism in the area and how to put some of those fires out. And we discussed the price of bauxite, which is what you use for making aluminum. Things like that. So MR. SCHIFF: And did you discuss any specific business proposal? MR. PRINCE: No. Conceptual-only stuff. MR. SCHIFF: So it's your viemn Mr. Prince, that the Prince, MBZ, invited you all the way to the Seychelles not to talk about anything specific, any specific business he wanted to do with you, but to have UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 30 a generalized discussion about bauxite and the Middle East and other things? 1 MR. PRINCE: I think leaders are always looking for people to have different ideas to share with them how to deal with the crises they have. I mean, they have active wars within a few hundred miles of their borders, and of course people are looking for specific ideas. And I '1ike the UAE. I lived there full?time for 3 years. My kids went to school there. And it's a bit of an oasis, literally in the desert, of peace and tranquility, and I hope it can stay that way. MR. SCHIFF: And knowinguwhat you do about the UAE, isn't it also a fact that countries like the UAE, and in particular the UAE, in order to enhance its influence, like to put people together in a way that enhances their position and their prestige in this case, someone with ties to the Trump campaign and a Russian banker? MR.PRINCE: It's not like I was at a meeting and they invited this Russian guy to the meeting. It was a matter of, "Hey, while you're here, there's a Russian guy that we've done some business with in the past, and it'd be interesting for you to meet him." So that's why I met him down in the bar after dinner, with no other Emiratis present. MR. SCHIFF: And the meeting that you had with the Prince, was that a dinner meeting? MR. PRINCE: No. It was just in the afternoon. MR. SCHIFF: And where, in particular, within the hotel did you have that meeting? UNCLASSI FIED 31 UNCLASSIFIED MR. PRINCE: I don't remember. MR. SCHIFF: Was it in the bar also? MR. PRINCE: No. It was not. Like I said, it was an outdoor it was some kind of a deck. MR. SCHIFF: And at the conclusion of that discussion, who was it that suggested that you meet the Russian banker? MR. PRINCE: I don't remember. MR. SCHIFF: You don'tlokwuwhetherii was the Princetm"someone in the delegation? MR. PRINCE: No, I think it was one of the brothers. But it wasn't Sheikh Mohammed. MR. SCHIFF: One of his brothers? MR. PRINCE: Correct. MR. SCHIFF: And -- MR. PRINCE: I think so. I don't know. But, I meanformal introduction. It was a, "Hey, while you're out here, it'd be interesting tor you to meet this guy." That's all. MR. SCHIFF: And did the brother escort you to meet the Russian banker? MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. SCHIFF: Then who did, or how did you find him? MR. PRINCE: Well, I think -- I think I just met him in the bar, and we Found each other and sat and had a beer for half an hour, and that was it. MR. SCHIFF: Well, how did you know he was at the bar? UNCLASSIFIED 32 UNCLASSIFIED MR. PRINCE: I think I recall one of them saying, "He'll be down in the bar area after dinner, if you wanted to meet this guy." MR. SCHIFF: So the UAE delegation knew where and when the Russian banker would be in the bar? MR. PRINCE: I really don't remember. MR. SCHIFF: Okay. At some later point, you went to the bar to meet him, correct? MR. PRINCE: Well, I had dinner. And there's a big outdoor buffet area. And Ifuuidinner and then found this guy in the bar after I was done eating. MR. SCHIFF: And is that the end of my time, Mr. Chairman? Okay. I will reserve. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: All right. I ask unanimous consent to continue the alternating 36-minute rounds. Without objection. Our side is recognized for 36 minutes. Mr. Prince, you gave us a packet of documents that you brought that you said you gave113the Senate. There iszadate in there. There are some parameters. Can you walk us through? Were those your parameters, your dates? How did you MR. PRINCE: No. Those were those are the parameters that they asked me in the letter I received from them. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: So you did get a letter from them. MR. PRINCE: Yes. UNCLASS IFIED 33 UNCLASSIFIED CHAIRMAN CONANAY: Okay. And then what's magic about the June 16th date? Did they explain -- MR. PRINCE: That was their Specified date. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: Okay. The series of email exchanges appear to be between you and a Christophe Charlier. MR. PRINCE: Yep. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: Is that how you pronounce his name? MR. PRINCE: I think so. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: C-h-a-r?l?i?e-r. Rather than walk us through each one of them, can you give me just a sense of what the back?and-forth was about? It seems to be some sort of business deal. Or what was the gist of these emails? MR. PRINCE: Yeah. The first email, as I recall, dates from November, end of November 2816. And he is emailing me, congratulating me on the appointment of my sister to be Secretary of Education. And then the rest of the communications were in 2617. And Mr. Charlier runs an investment bank with an office in Russia. And he lives between the U.K. and Switzerland, I recall. And that investment bank focuses on natural resources, fundraising, capital, debt equity, mergers and acquisitions kind of stuff. And I have a one of the businesses I'm involved in is a survey business, and we do advanced search for oil and gas and minerals. So weuwere looking at -- UNCLASSIFIED 34 UNCLASSIFIED CHAIRMAN CONANAY: Seismic? MR. PRINCE: Not seismic but farther upstream than that. Mag and graph. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: Right. MR. PRINCE: And so we looking at doing something with that business, raising some more capital for it to do an acquisition or to divest it. And so one of my colleagues knew Mr. Charlier. I think he had gone to college with him. And so that was the impetus of that communication. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: And then MR. PRINCE: I would also specify that that investment bank he works for is a private one. It is not in any way affiliated with the government. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: The government of who? MR. PRINCE: Russia. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: Okay. So did you wind up doing a deal? MR. PRINCE: Did nothing. Transacted zero. Nothing with him. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: Okay. So the request from the Senate asked you for anything relative to Russia. Did they know about Mr. Charlier? 0r that's your only dealings with someone Russian. MR. PRINCE: They said any Russian national that you communicated with. And I?m not even sure that Mr. Charlier is a Russian national, but I knew his office was in Russia. I think it's -- maybe even their headquarters is in Russia. But most of their operating is done out UNCLASSIFIED 35 UNCLASSIFIED of London and Switzerland. ScaI, out of an abundance of care, included those emails in the disclosure. CHAIRMAN CONAWAY: All right. Anybody else? Pete? Anybody else on our side? All right. We'll yield to Mr. Schiff. Thank you. MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now, Mr. Prince, how did you get to the Seychelles? Were you traveling on your own plane? MR. PRINCE: No, I took commercial. MR. SCHIFF: And what carrier did you use? MR. PRINCE: I probably used Etihad. MR. SCHIFF: Did you travel alone, or did anyone accompany you on the trip?? MR. PRINCE: Alone. MR. SCHIFF: Did you meet anyone elsezh1the Seychelles fronlyour company or any other associates there? MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. SCHIFF: So I think where we left off, you were headed to the bar. So if you could tell us what happened when you arrived at the bar, how you identified Mr. Dmitriev. Let's start there. MR. PRINCE: Well, I remember Googling his name and found a picture and found the guy that looked like the picture. MR. SCHIFF: Now, does that mean that the Prince or one of his delegation told you the name of the person they wanted you to meet? MR. PRINCE: Yeah. They did. UNCLASS I FIED 36 UNCLASSIFIED MR. SCHIFF: And what did they tell you about him? MR. PRINCE: That he runs a some kind of a hedge fund in Russia. MR. SCHIFF: Did they say anything more than this? MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. SCHIFF: And what did you learn when you Googled him? MR. PRINCE: That he ran a Russian hedge fund. MR. SCHIFF: Is it a hedge fund, or is it a state-backed investment bank? MR. PRINCE: I don 't know. I just looked at the picture and found the guy. I was roaming, so data roaming is expensive when you're overseas. MR. SCHIFF: And did you, in your -- in your quick revievrof him, did you learn whether the bank that he was affiliated with was a sanctioned entity? MR. PRINCE: I don't recall that, no. MR. SCHIFF: You don't recall knowing whether, before you went to talk with him, you knew that his bank was a sanctioned entity. MR. PRINCE: I don't recall that, no. MR. SCHIFF: And was he alone in the bar? MR. PRINCE: I think his wife was there. MR. SCHIFF: And tell us what happened when you identified him in the bar based on his Googled photograph. MR. PRINCE: I said, I'm I gave him my name, and I said, the Emirati guy said I should meet you while I'm out here. And so we talked about, like I said, trade matters and how the United States and Russia UNCLASS IFIED 37 UNCLASSIFIED should be working together to defeat Islamic terrorism. And we certainly talked about the prices of oil and other basic mineral commodities and where he thought the market was going. MR. SCHIFF: Now, "trade matters" can mean a lot of different things, particularly when you're talking to someone who controls a sanctioned financial institution. What, in particular, did you discuss regarding trade? Did you discuss the fact that certain trade was prohibited because of U.S. sanctions? MR. PRINCE: I wasn't talking about trading with him. But he just -- I remember him saying how much he wished trade would resume with the United States in a normal way. MR. SCHIFF: And did he discuss with you why it was not occurring in a normal way? MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. SCHIFF: Did he discuss sanctions with you at all? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SCHIFF: What more can you tell us about what he said regarding trade or commerce between the United States and Russia? MR. PRINCE: Nothing more than that. Like I said in my letter, I remember'tellingliim'that if Franklin Roosevelt coulclworkimith Josef Stalin to defeat Nazi fascism, certainly the United States could work with Vladimir Putin to defeat Islamic fascism. MR. SCHIFF: Okay. What else did you discuss? MR. PRINCE: That's all. MR. SCHIFF: You said you discussed oil and commodity prices. UNCLASSIFIED 38 UNCLASSIFIED What did you talk about with respect to oil prices? MR. PRINCE: Like anybody that's in the oil and gas business, I think they ask each other if they think the price is going up or down. That's the -- that's an important number for anybody that's investing in that space. MR. SCHIFF: So you were talking simply idly about whether oil prices were going up and down? MR. PRINCE: I guess talking at that point, mineral prices were inzaparticular slump. And so [think anybody, east, west, north, or south, was feeling'the pinch from'that. So, yes, those are'the kind of things we talked about. MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss the impact of sanctions on MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SCHIFF: -- the ability to consummate oil or gas transactions? MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. SCHIFF: Did he express any interest in doing business with you? MR. PRINCE: No. No reason to. MR. SCHIFF: Did he express interest in doing business with other people you're acquainted with? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SCHIFF: Did he bring upa desire to have a relationship with the Trump administration? MR. PRINCE: N0. UNCLASSIFIED 39 UNCLASSIFIED MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss establishing a channel of communications with his country that would be discreet? MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss having any channel of communications between the United States and Russia? MR. PRINCE: NO. MR. SCHIFF: Is there anything more specific you can tell us about what you did discuss with him? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SCHIFF: After your meeting in the hotel, your poolside meeting with the Prince and his delegation, your dinner -- was your dinner alone? MR. PRINCE: Yes, I believe it was. MR. SCHIFF: And your drinks with Mr. Dmitriev and his wife, did you -- MR. PRINCE: I think she was there for the first fewlninutes, and then she left. And then the beer was done, meeting was over. And I went to the after that. MR. SCHIFF: And did you leave the next day? MR. PRINCE: Yeah, the next morning. MR. SCHIFF: So the only two meetings you had while you were there were an hour?long meeting with the Prince and his delegation and an approximately half?an?hour meeting in the bar with Mr. Dmitriev. MR. PRINCE: I think that's the order-of it, but I'm not -- yeah. Something like that. UNCLASSIFIED 4o UNCLASSIFIED MR. SCHIFF: After your trip to the Seychelles, or during your trip to the Seychelles, did you inform anyone of your meetings? MR. PRINCE: Inform anyone? Who? MR. SCHIFF: Well, you tell me. Did you tell anyone that you had met with the UAE delegation, and did you tell anyone that you had met with Mr. Dmitriev? MR. PRINCE: I don't think so, no. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever have a subsequent conversation MR. PRINCE: There was no reason to be reporting to anyone. I'm I own my own business and run it accordingly. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever tell Mr. Bannon that you had met with Mr. Dmitriev? MR. PRINCE: No, I don't think 50. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever tell Mr. Bannon that you had met with the Prince and his delegation? MR. PRINCE: That's possible, but I don't remember. There would've been no reason to report to him who I was meeting and where. MR. SCHIFF: Well, there was no reason for him to report to you about the meeting in New York, was there? MR. PRINCE: No. Just that I remember, when Steve was communicating about it, he said -- as it was his first time that he ever met Mohammed bin Zayed, and he said he was a great guy. That's the only characterization of the meeting he gave. MR. SCHIFF: And in terms of whether after your Seychelles meeting you ever communicated back to Mr. Bannon, "Nell, funny you UNCLASSIFIED 41 UNCLASSIFIED should mention MBZ. I just met with him also." MR. PRINCE: I don't remember. It was not a factor, not a salient point. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever communicate with anyone in The Trump Organization or transition team that you had gone to the Seychelles and had a meeting with the MR. PRINCE: Not that I recall, no. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever tell anyone with The Trump Organization or transition team that you had had a meeting with Mr. Dmitriev? MR. PRINCE: No, I did not. MR. SCHIFF: Did you have a conversation with Mr. Bannon in preparation for your testimony today? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SCHIFF: Have you discussed your proposed testimony today with anyone? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SCHIFF: And have you -- MR. PRINCE: Again, to characterize it, Congressman, Erik Prince, a private citizen, traveled to the Seychelles tOIneet with some Emirati people that he'd known for a few years. And while there, they said, "Oh, there's this Russian guy that's also here to see us. Might be useful for you to meet him. And like I said, I met him for a maximum of 38 minutes, probably much less than that because it doesn't take me that long to drink a beer -- in a bar. I had no communication with that guy before then and no communication with him or any of his UNCLAS I FI ED 42 UNCLASSIFIED affiliates since then. MR. SCHIFF: I understand, Mr. Prince, that's one perspective. Of course, it's another perspective that you -- MR. PRINCE: Well, it's my perspective because I was actually there. MR. SCHIFF: Yeah, I understand. And part of the perspective is you were invited potentially halfway around the world to have, effectively, two meetings. And MR. PRINCE: I've gone a lot farther to a lot worse places to have a much shorter meeting than that. MR. SCHIFF: Yes, but they're not of interest to this committee; this one is. Did you receive any followup from the UAE regarding the meeting that you had and the discussion you had about bauxite and Middle East politics and whatever else it was you discussed? MR. PRINCE: I mean, I've seen Emiratis since then, talking;ab0ut agriculture:opportunities, oil.and gasiJIAfrica, those kindc?zplaces, but no specific followups to anything that was discussed back in January, no. MR. SCHIFF: So you were invited all the way out to the Seychelles, you had this meeting, and then there is no followup to the Emirati part of the conversation. MR. PRINCE: Well, you know, I think there probably would've been some co-investment opportunities, et cetera, but I know the Emiratis were very upset at the article that came out when The Washington Post UNCLASSIFIED 43 UNCLASSIFIED used the leaked unlawful maskings of people like me that somehow miraculously made it to The Washington Post, and they were upset at the violation of confidence. And I think at first they thought that I was the leaker. And now, come to find out through, I think, other investigations of folks inlNashington it's more like people like Susan Rice or other folks from the Obama NSC that did that. So, yeah. And that comes back to my concern about, what is the community going to do about unlawful leaking and the abuse, the political abuse, of the intelligence apparatus that affects Americans? Because if we actually want to pursue rule of law and actually abide by that, then what are you doing to prevent the illicit use of the intelligence apparatus by a political party, particularly MR. SCHIFF: So, Mr. Prince MR. PRINCE: particularly the previous one that did that to me? Because it affects Americans, because it makes it harder when your name appears with a whole bunch of largely conjecture and nonsense, an illegal of your name, it affects your ability to do banking, to do business, and all the rest. And so I'm really bothered by that, and any American -- MR. SCHIFF: So, Mr. Prince MR. PRINCE: -- should be, particularly as Congress votes to reauthorize significant ability for the Intelligence Community to dig into our lives, whether you're a private citizen or not, from all the electronics that you do. UNCLASSIFIED 44 UNCLASSIFIED MR. SCHIFF: So, Mr. Prince, the Emiratis communicated to you that they were upset that your private meeting in the Seychelles had been made MR. PRINCE: Wound up on the cover of The Washington Post. MR. SCHIFF: And how did they communicate that to you? MR. PRINCE: It was a phone call. MR. SCHIFF: And who was the phone call from? MR. PRINCE: It was one of the members of the -- because I was calling to try to get another meeting, and they said, "No, he's very upset because of this article in The Washington Post." MR. SCHIFF: "He" meaning MR. PRINCE: No. No, no. I didn't talkixahinlby phone. Itlvas one of the people that was scheduling from the royal court. MR. SCHIFF: But when he referred, the person who was doing the scheduling, he was very upset, was that person referring to MR. PRINCE: Yes. MR. SCHIFF: So he communicated to you that MBZ was upset that your private meeting in the Seychelles had become public. MR. PRINCE: Well, that it wound up on the cover of a newspaper, yes. MR. SCHIFF: Did he communicate to you why he was upset that that meeting should be made public? MR. PRINCE: Well, I think people should expect a certain amount of privacy in their business dealings, and to have it abused by the intelligence apparatus is not right. UNCLASSIFIED 45 UNCLASSIFIED MR. SCHIFF: Were they upset that your meeting1~ithl?r. Dmitriev was made public? MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. SCHIFF: They were only upset that the meeting with them was made public but not the meeting with the Russian banker that they had helped arrange. MR. PRINCE: Didn't go into that much detail. Just that there was an article that appeared in The Washington Post. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Himes. MR. HIMES: Thank you. Thank you for being here, Mr. Prince. The one topic on1mhich you've gotten quite animated and expansive about today is of profound interest to this committee and one of the legs of our four-legged stool of investigation. You've made some assertions that I really want to explore a little bit. You characterized The Washington Post as clearly having been based on SIGINT intercepts. You've suggested that the former administration was responsible. You've named members of that administration. I closely reread the Washington Post article as you were speaking, and I looked at the sourcing. And the sourcing says, "according to U.S. European, and Arab officials, "according to officials, and then ?according to U.S., European, and Arab officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive matters." So since The Washington Post has not shared with this committee UNCLAS I FI ED 46 UNCLASSIFIED any of the background on their sourcing, I'm wondering if you have specific evidence that the sources for this story came from SIGINT, which was your assertion previously. MR. PRINCE: Well, there's been plenty of talk of unmasking and of senior officials in the Obama NSC that were asking for unmasking of a lot of intercepts. MR. HIMES: Yeah, I know there's been plenty of talk about a lot of things, some of which is substantiated, some of which isn't. My question to you was you made a pretty bold assertion, includingzwiaccusation against the former'administration and specific individuals. So my question to you is, do you have any particular specific evidence to back the assertion that the sources of The Washington Post came from SIGINT which was inappropriately unmasked, that that SIGINT was collected under the 762 authorities? Do you have any Specific evidence to substantiate the charges you have made here today? MR. PRINCE: Well, unless The Washington Post has somehow miraculously recruited the bartender of a hotel in the Seychelles, the only way that's happening is through SIGINT. MR. HIMES: Well, I don't think that's right. I mean, again, if -- MR. PRINCE: If it walks like a duck and quacks like anUCk, it's a duck. MR. HIMES: So, again, The Washington Post says "according to U.S., European, and Arab officials." It is possible that one of the UNCLASSIFIED 47 UNCLASSIFIED Emiratis who arranged this meeting might have been a source. It's possible that the Russian might have been a source. It's possible that the bartender might have been a source. I'm asking you whether I'm not asking for your deductions or your conclusions. I'm asking if you have specific evidence to substantiate some very serious accusations you'velnade here today that are of profound interest to this committee's investigation. MR. PRINCE: I've been around the Intelligence Community long enough, and if you've been ainember for more than a few years, you know of my relationship to that organization. I know it came from SIGINT. And we'll leave it at that. MR. HIMES: Okay. This is an open hearing, but what you just said requires followup. And it is the answer to my question, which is, I think, if I'm hearing you correctly, that you do have specific evidence that this was derived from SIGINT. Is that your testimony? MR. PRINCE: The only way someone is getting that granularity of detail -- because I?m, let's say, 99.99 percent sure that no Emirati was calling The Washington Post to report on that meeting, okay? And there was no other U.S. officials there. MR. HIMES: Look, again, I'm not asking for a process of elimination. I'm askingaavery simple question, which is,ck)you have specific evidence that this story was derived from MR. PRINCE: No. But I would imagine this committee could find that evidence if they actually subpoenaed who unmasked any of the intercepts UNCLASS IFIED 48 UNCLASSIFIED MR. HIMES: Yeah. Thank you. MR. PRINCE: made in that area. MR. HIMES: I appreciate that. MR. PRINCE: So Immauld encourage you to do your job and dig into that, please. MR. HIMES: Well, I can promise you that this committee is doing its job, including having interviewed two of the -- or at least one of the individuals that you named before, former National Security Advisor Susan Rice. There has also been talk, as you said, that perhaps Samantha Power might have been one of the unmasking officials. This committee will come to a conclusion as tomvhether their testimony indicated that that is true or false. But since you raised those two names, I'm going to ask you the same question, which is, having raised those names in a transcript which will be made public, it's very important that you tell this committee whether you have specific evidence MR. PRINCE: Not with me today. No, I do not. MR. HIMES: Okay. So, not with you today, but I'm going to ask that question more expansively. Do you have specific evidence today or not with you today that, in fact, Susan Rice or any other Obama administration official engaged in improper unmasking? MR. PRINCE: I have spoken to enough very experienced people in the Intelligence Community that they, too, deduced from their experience -- and perhaps they have'that evidence themselves, but they UNCLASS IFIED 49 UNCLASSIFIED are people that I have confidence in that said the only way that deduction came is from SIGINT. MR. HIMES: Okay. So -- MR. PRINCE: Unmasking of MR.HIMES: the answer to the question of -- MR. PRINCE: Most definitely not. MR. HIMES: -- whether you have specific evidence is no. And, again, I'm not a lawyer, but what I think I just heard you describe is hearsay. Would you agree with that? You spoke to some people who deduced. MR. PRINCE: Well, let's just say they're people I trust, that America has trusted for 36-plus years of their careers with some of the most sensitive work MR. HIMES: And did they have in those conversations that you had, did they have specific evidence that, in your mind, proved those allegations, or were they just sort of speculating? MR. PRINCE: No, they had specific they had specific information. MR. HIMES: Okay. Can you tell us who those individuals are? Because -- MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. HIMES: -- this committee will need to see that evidence. MR. PRINCE: No. MR. HIMES: Why not? UNCLASSIFIED 50 UNCLASSIFIED MR. PRINCE: It's not I'm not going to name their names in an open forum. MR. HIMES: Okay. But what I just heard you say is very important, which is that you know people within the Intelligence Community that have specific evidence that specific individuals improperly unmasked. Is that your testimony? MR. PRINCE: Correct. MR. HIMES: Okay. So, obviously, this committeemwill need to MR. PRINCE: They're people that I believe. And, again, the only way -- MR. HIMES: Again, I'm not asking about your beliefs. I'm asking, and you answered yes, that you know individuals who have specific evidence incriminating, essentially, members of the former administration. And I'm not going to pursue this because we're in open session, but you can count on us to follow up on your assertion that there are individuals in the Intelligence Community that have evidence to that effect. MR. PRINCE: Former members of the Intelligence Community, yes. MR. HIMES: Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that. Now, you also, at a very sensitive moment for the 762 collection authority, have testified today that you believe that the supposed unmasking that will be followed up upon came from collection. You weren't sure about SIGINT. That was something you testified was a process of elimination on your part. But you asserted that it was 762 UNCLASSIFIED 51 UNCLASSIFIED collection. Do you have specific evidence that the sources here came from 792?derived collection? MR. PRINCE: No. I'm not familiar -- I'm not that familiar?with the detail at all. MR. HIMES: Okay. Thank you. UNCLASS IFIED 52 UNCLAS I FIED [4:14 MR. HIMES: I wanted to ask a question following up on Mr. Schiff?s line of questioning. Very specific to the end of the meeting with Mr. Dmitriev. It's pretty I've been in a lot of business meetings. It?s pretty typical at the end of a meeting to sort of raise or query the possibility of followup. In other'words, "I'll see you later," "I'll send you this," ?Well, let's do that." Was there any sort of, even as a sort of matter of pleasantry, agreement at the end of that meeting to follow up in any way, shape, or form? MR. PRINCE: No, not even phone numbers were exchanged. MR. HIMES: So you just shook hands, parted. No followup of any kind discussed? MR. PRINCE: I actually looked around. I didn't find any business card. Maybe I did receive one, but I looked, and I couldn't find one. So -- and chuiassure you there was no followup after'that. MR. HIMES: So help me reconcile, and then I'm going to get I'm going to move on to some other meetings that are of interest. I guess I'm puzzling over like Mr. Schiff, I'm sort of confused that an individual would, any individual would sort of fly a long way for a meeting, agree to meet casually with somebody over a beer. When it was all said and done at the end of that day MR. PRINCE: No, no, let me clarify. I didn't fly there to meet any Russian guy. UNCLASSIFIED 53 UNCLASSIFIED MR. HIMES: I understand. You know, your testimony is clear. MR. PRINCE: But you characterized that I did, so I'm just clarifying that. MR. HIMES: Sorry, understood. That's clear. You flew there, and I guess this is a question. In your letter to the Senate, you said you traveled to Seychelles to meet with some potential customers from the UAE. But you testified to us today that you came because his Highness wants to speak with you. MR. PRINCE: Yeah, to talk about potential MR. HIMES: Help me reconcile this. MR. PRINCE: No, no, to talk about potential business, whether it's construction, minerals, energy exploration, that whole host of stuff, and to exchange ideas these fires of terrorism and insurgency in the Middle East. MR. HIMES: I guess what I?m getting at is, if, in fact, what you testified today, this meeting was to sit with the Crown Prince of an important United States ally andaaveryamealthy nation,udk)essentially summoned you, I'nlnot sureliwould have used this languagejm1the letter to the Senate, "some potential customers." It just strikes me as a little discordant. MR. PRINCE: Why? MR. HIMES: Well, I just wouldn't characterize the Crown Prince of a monarchy, a key U.S. ally, as a "potential customer. That doesn't shake you as odd? MR. PRINCE: I wasn't there in an official capacity. I was there UNCLASSIFIED 54 UNCLASSIFIED to, hopefully, do commerce. So you do commerce with customers. MR. HIMES: So, at the end of the meeting, and then I'll, time permitting, I'll just move on to some other meetings. You have gone a long way, spent a fair amount of money. You had two meetings which I would characterize you sort of suggest they are casual, almost social in nature, no particular agenda, no particular followup. What was your-framecrfn?xmiwhen all.was said and done? You spent a fair amount of money, spent a fair amount of time, and really nothing other than pleasantries occurred in that hour?and?a?half period. But what did you think about it? MR. PRINCE: No, I would say that some of the deals were possible and were moving towards that. And then this article comes out in The Washington Post, and it certainly upset the Emiratis, and that shut it off. So I wouldn't characterize it as flying all the way there for pleasantries. It was there to talk about potential commerce, and then that leak and subsequent publication in The Washington Post put that to an end. MR. HIMES: So there was some specific followup with respect to the UAE meeting that I'm sorry; I may have misunderstood you, but can you -- was there specific followup associated with the meeting with MR. PRINCE: Specific followup as in what do you mean? MR. HIMES: Well, you made reference just now to business UNCLASS IFIED 55 UNCLAS I FI ED possibilities that were foreclosed by the Washington Post story. MR. PRINCE: Correct, any and all was foreclosed by the leak. MR. HIMES: Last question on the meeting with Dmitriev, a fairly striking statement that you put in your statement to the Senate: I remember telling him that if Franklin Roosevelt could work with Josef Stalin to defeat Nazi fascism, certainly Donald Trump could work with Vladimir Putin to defeat Islamic fascism. Was that a statement that you made in response to alquestion that Mr. Dmitriev asked? MR. PRINCE: I don't know. It kind of summarizes my attitude towards Russia. I think we could certainly agree to we can vehemently disagree with them on Ukraine and some of their other activities, but at least on the matter of Islamic fascism, like I said MR. HIMES: I guess what I'm trying to get at MR. PRINCE: Franklin Roosevelt, for all of the atrocities -- MR. HIMES: No, it's okay. MR. PRINCE: for the 22 million Ukrainians killed by the MR. HIMES: So, let me let me, what's really I got you there. What I'm trying to do here is, since Mr. Dmitriev is not here, I?m trying to get your belief around, perhaps, what his objective was for the meeting. So when you make a statement, which is a perfectly reasonable statement, I'm wondering if he asked a question which elicited that statementcw~whatpromptedyou. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 55 It is about the context and what his frame of mind might have been. MR. PRINCE: Oh, we were talking about the endless war and carnage in Iraq and Syria. And I remember summing up what I said to him by that: If Franklin Roosevelt can work with Joseph Stalin after the Ukraine terror famine, after killing tens of millions of his own citizens, we can certainly at least cooperate with the Russians in a productive way to defeat the Islamic State. MR. HIMES: And how did Mr. Dmitriev reSpond to that statement? MR. PRINCE: He agreed to that. MR. HIMES: Let me, because we have limited time, but I'll yield the last minute and a half to Mr. Schiff. MR. SCHIFF: When you went to find Mr. Dmitriev in the bar and you introduced yourself to him, did he indicate that he was expecting you to come by? MR. PRINCE: Nell, it wasn't a cold call, so I think he must have met with the Emiratis after I did, and they must have said: Hey, this guy Erik might approach you at the bar. MR. SCHIFF: So the Emiratis had at some point, either before your meeting with the Emiratis or after, the Emiratis had informed Mr. Dmitriev that you would likely be meeting him as well? MR. PRINCE: Like they mentioned to me: Hey, this guy, this Russian guy that deals in commodities in emerging markets would be a useful guy for you to meet potentially for stuff in the future. So, yes. And that's -- and I would imagine they mentioned the same thing UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 57 that, you know, this guy Erik who deals in emerging markets and looks for minerals and oil and gas in remote places. 50 that's why they I guess that's why they arranged that meeting. MR. SCHIFF: And in terms of the quote that Mr. Himes asked you about, did that come about because of anythingIWr. Dmitriev said about what he hoped the Trump relationship with Russia would be? MR. PRINCE: No. That was, you know, as part of the 28 to 36 minutes of conversation. Certainly, Iraq and Syria was burning hot, and I summarized my perspective on that by telling him that what my opinion was, not in any way -- anyone else's opinion, and certainly the United States Government's opinion of any outgoing or incoming- administration. MR. SNALNELL: Mr. Chairman, before we conclude, I just want a point of order. The witness has refused to answer-a question from Mr. Himes as to who provided him sensitive information. I would ask that you direct the witness to answer that question because we set the terms, not the witness. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: Right. We are in open sessionbetter ??-irla more appropriate session, we will explore that. So we are going to stand in recess until after votes. We have got four votes, Mr. Prince. We should be back by hopefully 5 o'clock. We are standing in recess. [Recess.] [5:64 UNCLASSIFIED 5 UNCLASSIFIED 8 CHAIRMAN All right. The hearingIMill reconvene. Our side has no questions at this stage. So IINill recognize the minority For 36 minutes. Adam. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Himes. MR. HIMES: Thank you. And thank you, Mr. Prince, For staying with us. I want to take some time now just to go through a bunch oF other meetings that we haven't talked about, and iF you weren't attending or iF you don't know anything about them, we can move through them quickly. IF you have knowledge, we will spend a little bit more time on them. But let me just run through a couple speciFic meetings. March 2816, there is a campaign Foreign policy meeting with candidate Trump. It doesn't appear that you were there, but were you at that meeting? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. HIMES: Were you invited? MR. PRINCE: I you're saying it today is the First I've ever heard oF it. MR. HIMES: Okay. So this March 2816, it has gotten some publicity in the paper. You weren?t there or invited? MR. PRINCE: I knew nothing oF it, was not in attendance. MR. HIMES: Okay. Moving on then to the April 27, 2616, MayFlower Hotel event. Again, it has gotten a Fair amount oF press play. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 59 MR. PRINCE: No idea. Wasn't there. MR. HIMES: Didn't attend? MR. PRINCE: Had nothing to do with it. MR. HIMES: You were not involved in planning, attending, advising? MR. PRINCE: Zero. MR.HIMES: Okay. Mayflower Hotel event? Is that correct? MR. PRINCE: That is correct. MR. HIMES: Okay. Moving on chronologically, July 18 through 21, 2916, the Republican Convention. Did you participate in any discussions with the Trump campaign, or any Republican officials regarding the Republican Party platform at the convention? MR. PRINCE: Zero. MR. HIMES: Okay. Any recommendations with respect to how the event should proceed? Anything MR. PRINCE: No. MR. HIMES: Okay. So no recommended changes to anything regarding Russia or Ukraine? MR. PRINCE: Like I said, zero. MR. HIMES: Okay. Where were you during the convention? MR. PRINCE: Not at the convention. MR. HIMES: Not at the convention. You were asked this question about the campaign. Let me ask the same question about the transition. In the campaign, you said no UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 60 official role, kind of some unofficial stuff that you detailed. The Trump transition, did you have any official role or unofficial role in the transition team? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. HIMES: You testified earlier that you met Mr. Trump once at a photo?op event. I think that's what you said. Any other -- MR. PRINCE: Correct. That's the only time I ever met him while he was candidate Trump. MR. HIMES: Okay. Did you okay. Thank you. So the follow?on question is: Did you ever then meet with President-elect Trump? MR. PRINCE: I met him briefly for another photo?op at a post-election holiday party in -- that was December of 2816. MR. HIMES: December. What was the location? MR. PRINCE: New York. MR. HIMES: New York. Do you recall anything about where specifically it was, who sponsored it, anything along those lines? MR. PRINCE: It was a big holiday party, and he walked in, and I had a picture taken with him, and that was it. MR. HIMES: Any any communication with him? MR. PRINCE: Nothing significant, no, other than "Congratulations," and "We're really glad you won." MR. HIMES: Okay. At that event, did you have any contact and let me just run through a couple of individuals with Jared Kushner? MR. PRINCE: From when to when? UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 61 MR. HIMES: At this particular event. MR. PRINCE: No. MR. HIMES: What about during the transition? MR. PRINCE: At the couple of times I was up at Trump Tower, I was introduced to him briefly in the hallway, but nothing more than an introduction, and that's it. So I've never had any substantive policy, foreign policy, any kind of conversations other than beyond an exchange of names. MR. HIMES: Okay. So those meetings you said a couple of times at Trump Tower. That was during the transition? MR. PRINCE: Yeah, that would have been December of 2616. MR. HIMES: Can you tell us about the circumstances of those couple of times at Trump Tower, what the purpose of those meetings were, and who you met with? MR. PRINCE: I had other business in New York. I met with Steve Bannon and that yeah, in that case, I was making dropping off some Middle East foreign policy policy papers, things that America should do differently than what we had been doing. MR. HIMES: So that sounds consistent to what you were doing during the campaign. You said you produced some papers, similar similar stuff? MR. PRINCE: Dropped them off, yes. MR. HIMES: So you said a couple of meetings. That was one meeting with Steve Bannon. What was the other meeting? MR. PRINCE: I was I think it was a total of two times that UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 62 I probably saw him in that period. MR. HIMES: So two meetings with Steve Bannon in New York at Trump Tower during the transition. MR. PRINCE: in December. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. HIMES: PRINCE: HIMES: PRINCE: HIMES: PRINCE: HIMES: PRINCE: HIMES: PRINCE: HIMES: PRINCE: HIMES: It might have been in November. It might have been Okay. It is post?election, pre?inauguration? Yes. Two meetings with Steve Bannon in Trump Tower? I think 50. Any other attendees at either of those meetings? Not that I recall, no. Not Paul Manafort? No, never met him. Mr. Gates. Who? Rick Gates. I don?t know who that is. Okay. You don't recall other attendees other than Steve Bannon at those two meetings? MR. PRINCE: MR.HIMES: you dropped off some documents. Okay. Correct. Can you just elaborate a little bit? You said Can you just elaborate, tell us how long those meetings were, and any other topics of conversation? MR. PRINCE: I would say maximum 5, 16 minutes, talking about the amount of waste in U.S. foreign policy and defense spending, ways to UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 63 cut it, ways to be more effective and efficient, the same kind of stuff I've given plenty of interviews on TV and written op?eds about in the various papers. MR. HIMES: You testified earlier that Mr. Bannon gave you a heads-up on the meeting in Trump Tower with the individuals from the UAE. Was that at either of these meetings, or was that a separate communication? MR. PRINCE: I don't remember. MR. HIMES: So it might have been at one of these two meetings? MR. PRINCE: I don't really know. MR. HIMES: Okay. The reason I ask is because I guess this meeting that I'm asking about was a December 2816 meeting with the UAE officials and you were saying this was November and possibly December? MR. PRINCE: Well, the election was in early November, and the inauguration was January 26, so it was a couple of meetings at some point in?between there not on Christmas Day and not on New Year's Day or Thanksgiving Day. MR. HIMES: So just to be clear, two meetings in Trump Tower during the transition with Steve Bannon, neither of which lasted more than 5 or 18 minutes? MR. PRINCE: Correct. MR. HIMES: Did Mr. Bannon make any requests of you in those meetings? MR. PRINCE: He may have asked my opinion on U.S. policy in Afghanistan, why we are failing. Those are the only requests would UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 64 be questions of: What do you think of this U.S. foreign policy challenge in whatever country it might be? MR. HIMES: Did the topic of Russia ever come up in either of those two meetings? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. HIMES: Did Mr. Bannon inquire in either of those meetings whether you might have an interest in being a member of the administration? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. HIMES: Did you do anything or say anything to Mr. Bannon beyond the sort of provision of advice that you have described, Middle East, how to do the conflicts there differently? MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. HIMES: I want to come back quickly to the transition, but in order to kind of keep the chronology flowing on these meetings, December 2616, there's again been a lot of press reporting about a meeting between Jared Kushner, Michael with Russian Ambassador Sergei Kislyak at Trump Tower. Did you attend that meeting? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. HIMES: Were you invited? MR. PRINCE: Nope. MR. HIMES: Do you have any direct or indirect knowledge of that meeting? MR. PRINCE: Zero. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 65 MR. HIMES: Did anybody talk to you about it? MR. PRINCE: What part of zero do you not understand? Zero. MR. HIMES: December 2616, again, this press reporting around a meeting that Jared Kushner held with Russian Bank Chairman Sergey Gorkov of VEB. Did you attend that meeting? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. HIMES: Were you invited? MR. PRINCE: Zero. I was not attended, have no knowledge. Period. MR. HIMES: Okay. MR. PRINCE: Next question. Let's stop wasting time. MR. HIMES: It's important, I think, that we get clear answers to specific questions. So if you'll just bear with us on that. Some of it will feel repetitive, but we don't want ambiguity in the record here. All right, we covered the December 2616 UAE meeting and spent time on Seychelles. One more meeting, but let me come back to the transition. Can you describe contact or a relationship that you had with Anthony Scaramucci during the transition? MR. PRINCE: I think I met him passing in a hallway one time. MR. HIMES: During the transition? MR. PRINCE: Uh?huh. MR. HIMES: And when you say "met," that's when you made his acquaintance? You had no contact with him prior to that? UNCLASS IFIED UNCLASSIFIED 56 MR. PRINCE: Correct. MR. HIMES: Okay. What was the subject of your conversation with him? MR. PRINCE: It was an exchange of names, and that was it. No other policy discussion in any way, shape, or form. MR. HIMES: Was there any was there any discussion at any point with Anthony Scaramucci with regard to any of the meetings I just talked about or about a meeting that I haven't asked you about, which was the -- MR. PRINCE: Zero. MR. HIMES: No discussion of any meeting with Mr. Scaramucci? MR. PRINCE: Ne exchanged names, and that's it. Next. MR. HIMES: Okay. So I've asked you about a series of specific meetings and a bunch of specific people. So let me ask a catchall question here since you like answering these questions in categorical terms. Did you meet, during the transition, meet or talk with anybody that you understood to be directly or indirectly involved in the transition prior to the inauguration? MR. PRINCE: Nell, Steve Bannon was. Certainly. MR. HIMES: Beyond Steve Bannon, which we've talked about. MR. PRINCE: Look, ineatransition office, there's lotsc?Ipeople walking around, whether it's peOple interviewing for jobs, looking for a job, or what. So I told you: I ran into Anthony Scaramucci. He was introduced to me, and that was it. My purpose for going there was to drop off some policy suggestions UNCLASS IFIED UNCLASSIFIED 67 to Steve Bannon, and that's who I had contact with. That's the only person I discussed any policy with. MR. HIMES: Okay. Great, thank you. I will yield back to Mr. Schiff. MR. SCHIFF: Ms. Speier. MS. SPEIER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you, Mr. Prince, for being here. I have a couple of just isolated questions, and then I want to speak to you about your production that you provided to us today. Have you been interviewed by Special Counsel Mueller? MR. PRINCE: Nope. MS. SPEIER: Do you have a UAE passport? MR. PRINCE: No. MS. SPEIER: How many trips to Russia have you made? MR. PRINCE: I have been to Russia twice in my life. MS. SPEIER: And who paid for your trip to the Seychelles? MR. PRINCE: I did. MS. SPEIER: Did Mr. Dmitriev know anything about you when you had that beer with him in the bar? MR. PRINCE: No, I don't think so. MS. SPEIER: And so he was willing to have a beer with you even though he knew nothing about you, and -- MR. PRINCE: Presumably, he knew that I was active in the oil and gas exploration and mineral space. MS. SPEIER: Did he ask about your sister? UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 68 MR. PRINCE: No. MS. SPEIER: Okay. All right. So let's look at the production that you have made here today. So, to clarify for the record, you produced immediately prior to this interview 23 pages of material, primarily emails between you and an individual named Christophe Charlier, who is the chairman of the board of Renaissance Capital, which describes itself as the emergent market investment bank based in Moscow. Most of the emails date from after the President's inauguration, with most dating from May to August of 2917. MR. PRINCE: Right. 11)be clear, one is from November 2816, the end of November after the election, and all of the other ones are in 2617. MS.SPEIER: Yes,anch1November 23,ii:lookslike,Nw. Charlier congratulated you on your sister's nomination. All right. You also produced a cover letter with a short description oijour meeting in the Seychelles on or around January 11, 2817, with Kirill Dmitriev, the chief executive of the Russian Direct Investment Fund, which is the Russian Government?s created sovereign wealth fund. You also represented in your cover letter the following: On or around January 11, 2617, I traveled to the Seychelles to meetwith some potential customers from the UAE for the logistics business of which I'm chairman. After the meeting, he mentioned a guy I should meet who was also in town to see them, a Kirill Dmitriev from Russia, who ran UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 69 some sort of hedge fund. I met him in the hotel bar, and we chatted on topics ranging from oil and commodity prices to howlnuch his country wished for resumption of a normal trade relationship with the U.S.A. I remember telling;him that if Franklin Roosevelt could workmvith Josef Stalin to defeat Nazi fascism, then certainly Donald Trump could work with Vladimir Putin to defeat Islamic fascism. The meeting ended after a maximum of 36 minutes. I had no communications or dealing with him or any of his colleagues before or after that encounter last January. Now you've indicated you never received the letter from the committee asking for document production. MR. PRINCE: Correct. MS. SPEIER: That letter requested that you produce for the committee any documents from any Trump organization or campaign figures or related to individuals who may otherwise be linked to the Russian Government or companies. We also asked that you produce any emails or documents related to your travel to the Seychelles, including information that can shed light into the purpose and organization of your visit, your meetings and discussions while there, and any followup since. I'd like at this point to submit for the record as an exhibit the committee's letter to Mr. Prince, which we will share with you now. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: Without objection. [The information follows:] UNCLASSIFIED 7O UNCLASSIFIED MS. SPEIER: Does that look familiar to you at all? MR. PRINCE: Never seen it. MS. SPEIER: Is the address to which it's addressed your address? MR. PRINCE: It's an address of aliong Kong business, yes. But, certainly, I have a U.S. address as well that I could have been contacted through, so there's probably a simpler way to communicate that. MS. SPEIER: All right. So, now that you have that document, do you commit today to producing the entire range of relevant documents to this committee, including during the 2616 election cycle? The committee's production request is broad and encompasses any and all documents and material related to travel arrangements, planning for it, and other information relating to your January 11 trip to the Seychelles, and other travel and meetings of relevance as well. MR. PRINCE: Well, your colleagues on the Senate side asked for basically the same thing: any communications of anything to do with Russia or Russians back to June, the middle of June of 2615. And so the document possession you have in your hands effectively meets what you're requesting here. I'd say the only exception is if I actually go through the hassle of finding a plane ticket that I used to travel to the Seychelles. MS. SPEIER: Well, we're also asking you for information regarding any communication you had with The Trump Organization or campaign personnel or related individuals who may otherwise be linked to the Russian Government or companies. UNCLASSIFIED 71 UNCLASSIFIED MR. PRINCE: Okay. Well, I will look through and see what might be available yet. MS. SPEIER: Let me ask you this: We also communicated to you at an Is that you as well? MR. PRINCE: would typically stand for investor relations. It's a public company. MS. SPEIER: So this would not have reached you. MR. PRINCE: Well, it did not reach me, no. MS. SPEIER: Okay. All right, you have now agreed to provide us that documentation. We thank you for that. Let's go back?tO'theseIdocuments that you have provided us. What is your relationship with Christophe Charlier. MR. PRINCE: Well, as you can see from the emails, that he works for an investment bank that deals in the emerging markets and does mergers, acquisitions, debt and equity raising for companies active in that space. MS. SPEIER: Well, how long have you known him? MR. PRINCE: Probably 4 years. MS. SPEIER: And how did you meet him? MR. PRINCE: Maybe it's 5. Ne originally looked at him, at his firm helping to raise some equity for a project in Africa 5 or 6 years ago, whatever that was, 2812-2013. MS. SPEIER: So did you meet him in the United States or in Europe or in Russia. MR. PRINCE: I met him in Europe. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 72 MS. SPEIER: Okay. I presume it was in one of the cities in which he lived. The bulk of your emails with Christophe have-to domwith him being named chairman of the board of Renaissance Capital, which is an emergent market investment bank based in Moscow. So it appears that he moved his home to Moscow. Is that correct? MR. PRINCE: N0. M5. SPEIER: His address is now in Moscow. MR. PRINCE: The business officeais inlWoscow. But the emerging market deals are getting done between London, Switzerland, elsewhere in Europe. MS. SPEIER: Charlier served previously as deputy Group owned by Russian oligarch Mikhail Prokhorov. I may not be pronouncing that right. Prokhorov. He also happens to own the Brooklyn Nets basketball team and served owned the board of Russia AI, owned by Oleg Deripaska. What do you know about his involvement with those companies? MR. PRINCE: None. I mean, they own a basketball team in the United States. MS. SPEIER: So when he was deputy CEO of ONEXIM Group, you had no engagement with him? MR.PRINCE: dealings with him at all. MS. SPEIER: And what do you know about Renaissance Capital beyond which you've told us? UNCLASSIFIED 73 UNCLASSIFIED MR. PRINCE: Nothing. I mean, as you can see from the emails, they're nothing but scheduling emails and to discuss a possible engagement for them to raise some debt or equity for a project we were working on. MS. SPEIER: So press reports indicate that this firm has employed a string of former KGB spies and received millions of British pounds as fraud being investigated by Sergei Magnitsky, the individual found dead in a Russian prison. Were you aware of that? MR. PRINCE: No. Christophe is the only guy I ever met from the firm. MS. SPEIERmaybe owned by Oleg Deripaska, do you know about that company? MR. PRINCE: No. MS. SPEIER: You deal in aluminum, do you not? MR. PRINCE: No, bauxite. MS. SPEIER: Bauxite. Nell, isn't bauxite used to make aluminum? MR. PRINCE: Bauxite is used to make alumina, which is used to make aluminum. It's is a different piece of the value chain. It's like asking if somebody deals in high?grade gasoline that also drills for oil. It is a different part of the value chain. MS. SPEIER: So you don't know Russia Al, even though it's is the largest aluminum MR. PRINCE: It is called RUSAL. MS. SPEIER: So you do know about it? UNCLASSIFIED 74 UNCLASSIFIED MR. PRINCE: Well, I know what it is. I know that they are consumers of alumina, but I've never had any dealings with them as a company. MS. SPEIER: Okay. Who is Cyrus Behbehani from Glencore, and what is your relationship with him? MR. PRINCE: He works for Glencore, and someone I have'talked to before about commodities. MS. SPEIER: So in this email on June 28, Charlier asked you, do you ever interact with Glencore? I know someone, whose name is blotted out, quite well as we sat on the RUSAL board together. He could be interested, acquirer from for your African businesses. At the right time for you, I would like my team to take a look at these businesses and see if we can come up with interesting ideas. And you wrote back, don't know Ivan, but do you know,? and that's referencing Cyrus Behbehani. So MR. PRINCE: He is a Glencore employee. MS. SPEIER: Is he the MR. PRINCE: Could be. MS. SPEIER: Nell, sofkeis high rankingwwithirlthe company. And what are your interactions with him? MR. PRINCE: Occasional discussion of potential mineral sales or commodity prices. MS. SPEIER: So you are familiar that Rosneft had sold a portion of the company to Glencore? MR. PRINCE: I have no knowledge of that or dealings in that. UNCLASS IFIED 75 UNCLASSIFIED That's way out of my league. MS. SPEIER: Okay. So you don't know anything about Rosneft's privatization sale to Glencore or other companies in December? MR. PRINCE: Zero. Zero. MS. SPEIER: Okay. You testified earlier that, in your meeting with Dmitriev, he spoke about trade matters and how the U.S. and Russia should be working together. I think those were your words, and that Dmitriev wished trade would resume inaanormal way. Is that correct? MR. PRINCE: That was his stated desire. MS. SPEIER: So what did he mean by "normal way"? MR. PRINCE: I don't know. You'd have to ask him. MS. SPEIER: Nell, didn't -- so how did you interpret what he meant by a "normal way"? Lifting of sanctions? MR. PRINCE: I don't know. You'll have to ask him. MS. SPEIER: So Dmitriev was the head of Russian Direct Investments Fund at the time, which is under U.S. sanctions. Did you not know that? MR. PRINCE: I didn't know that, no. MS. SPEIER: So, knowing that now, is it fair to say that there might have been a relationship between him wanting to do trade and the lifting of sanctions? MR. PRINCE: You'll have to ask him that. MS. SPEIER: Okay. On January 16 you had met with him on January 11 or around that date, correct? - MR. PRINCE: That's what I said in my letter, yes. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 76 MS. SPEIER: On January 17, Bloomberg reported that Anthony Scaramucci, the former White House Communications Director and aide to Trump at the time of the report, met with Kirill Dmitriev, the head of Russian Direct Investments in Davos on January 16. Did he reference to you that he was going to Davos? MR. PRINCE: No. MS. SPEIER: Didn't say anything about it at all? MR. PRINCE: No. MS. SPEIER: Nothing about meeting up with Anthony Scaramucci? MR. PRINCE: Nope. I say again, no. MS. SPEIER: So Scaramucci confirmed the meeting and in an interview with the Russian State news agency TASS on January 17 said: I think the sanctions had in some way an opposite effect because of Russian culture. I think the Russians would eat snow if they had to, and so, for me, the sanctions probably galvanized the nation with the nation's president. Long?term sanctions could be painful had they been effective in other areas. In other nations, the answer is yes or otherwise they wouldn?t be using them if they weren't effective. But what I think we had to do now is think outside the box. So you didn't have any conversation that would talk to -- MR. PRINCE: N0. MS. SPEIER: And you have no direct knowledge of that meeting? MR. PRINCE: Like I said, no. MS. SPEIER: Okay. I think with that, Mr. Chair, I will yield back. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 77 MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Quigley. MR. QUIGLEY: Thank you. The delegation you met from the UAE, had you done business directly with them before? MR. PRINCE: Where? MR. QUIGLEY: The delegation you met in the Seychelles. MR. PRINCE: Right. MR. QUIGLEY: Had you done business with those people before? MR. PRINCE: I had attempted to. Ituuidone some small business, but nothing nothing significant, no. MR. QUIGLEY: Well, what was the extent of your business in the UAE before that meeting in the Seychelles? MR. PRINCE: Nothing to do with I can tell you it had nothing to do with Russia. MR. QUIGLEY: What was the extent of the business you were doing in the UAE before the meeting in the Seychelles? MR. PRINCE: we are here to talk about your investigation into Russia and the election. 50 - MR. QUIGLEY: It's just amazing how these things all find a way to be connected. So if you would just -- MR. PRINCE: No, I think you're kind of stretching t0'try to make it all connected. MR. QUIGLEY: Regardless, the question still stands. The business you had done in the UAE before the meeting in the Seychelles. MR. PRINCE: Like I said, we're here to talk about and any UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 78 business I had done with the UAE was years before and had ended by 2911, at the latest '12. MR. QUIGLEY: Mr. Chairman, Iiwould ask you respectfully ask the witness to answer. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: Thelwitness is here oneavoluntary basis. So he is not here under a subpoena. So if he answers, he answers; if he doesn't, he doesn't. So hang on a second. The gentleman's time has expired. Tom, do you have anything? MR. ROONEY: No. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: All right. Reset the clock. Thank you. I ask unanimous consent to continue about 38 minute 36?minute deal? MR. PRINCE: Now, listen, it's 5:36. I haven't been home in a week. I flew in this morning from Africa, and I've had about enough of this. So thank you. MR. SCHIFF: Are you refusing to testify any further, Mr. Prince? MR. PRINCE: I?d say the extent of the questions is so far outside the scope of what you're actually looking for that I'm not here to indulge your fishing expedition any longer. MR. SCHIFF: Nell, Mr. Prince, you have testified that you did business with the UAE, which you won't tell us the nature of. You don't hear from the UAE about doing further business for 6 years. Out of the blue, you are asked to have a meeting. You travel halfway around the world for the meeting, a third of which is with a Russian you didn't UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 79 know was going to be there. And you think it's improper for us to ask you the nature of your business with UAE. Is that correct? MR. PRINCE: Look, it's not even the nature of the questioning. The fact is I have been here for 3?1/2 hours 2-1/2 hours, actually 3 hours now. And I haven't been home in a week. I came back From -Africa, arrived this morning to come indulge you here, and I think I have indulged you enough. You have the document production you have asked for, and there is nothing else to see or hear. MR. SCHIFF: Are you refusing to Finish the hearing, Mr. Prince? MR. PRINCE: I'm refusing to waste anyone else's time. MR. SCHIFF: So we will need to subpoena you then and have you back. MR. PRINCE: Give me the summary, please, of the questions you think are still valid to continue. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Prince, you are either going to cooperate with the committee or you are not, and if you are not, just say so, and we will subpoena you. MR. PRINCE: Okay. We will go to 6 o'clock, and then we will be done. MR. SCHIFF: Well, we may not be done. It's not up to you to decide how long the hearing goes on. You may be used MR. PRINCE: It is, because I'm here voluntarily. MR. SCHIFF: You may be used to operating this way in your business, Mr. Prince. MR. PRINCE: Sir, I'm here voluntarily I'm here voluntarily, UNCLASSIFIED 80 UNCLASSIFIED and I'm only here because of an illegal leak from the Intelligence Community that somehow miraculously made it into The Washington Post. That's the only reason I'm here. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Quigley. And I do want to make sure, Mr. Chairman, before Mr. Prince departs, that we go into closed session and have him reveal the names to earlier. CHAIRMAN Let me check. He is here voluntarily rather than under subpoena. Let me see if the mechanics of the committee rules will allow that. Perhaps we can have a conversation with Mr. Prince offline and get those names. But let me run some traps on that while you guys finish up your questions. MR. QUIGLEY: In one of the emails you provided to us today, Charlier asked you whether you developed relations with Mubadala. But there is no response from you. Are you familiar with Mubadala? MR. PRINCE: Yeah. It's actually called Mubadala. It's a business entity in the UAE that does everything from computer chips to aluminum production to agriculture, agribusiness. So, yeah, I have met with people from Mubadala before, sure. MR. QUIGLEY: Are you still in contact with them? MR. PRINCE: Not lately, no. MR. QUIGLEY: When did the first contact occur? MR. PRINCE: Probably 2819. MR. QUIGLEY: Was this firm represented at the Seychelles UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 81 meeting? MR. PRINCE: I don't know. MR. QUIGLEY: Was a deal with this firm discussed at the Seychelles meeting? MR. PRINCE: Well, no. But I would say bauxite was, and they have an interest in bauxite. So that would probably be the only tangential overlap they have. MR. QUIGLEY: Was that why you included it in terms of it being relative to the production here? What was the -- MR. PRINCE: No, because there was communications with this Christophe Charlier, the investment banker with an office in Russia. MR. QUIGLEY: Okay. The chairman is not here. I would just suggest that I have more questions of a line that the witness doesn't want to answer. So I will yield back to the ranking member. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Castro or Mr. Swalwell. Mr. Swalwell? Mr. Castro? MR. CASTRO: I will let Eric go, and then I will go. MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Prince, where was the meeting with Mr. Nunes that you referenced with respect to him mentioning you testifying about unmasking? MR. PRINCE: I went to see him in his office about Afghanistan. MR. SWALWELL: When was that? MR. PRINCE: Well, I don't know. I wrote an op-ed in The Wall Street Journal. I was asked to come into the White House a couple of UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 82 times to talk about that. And so it was sometime, I don't know, over the summer or early fall. I don't remember. MR. SWALNELL: How many times have you talked to Mr. Nunes, either in person or by phone, since that meeting? MR. PRINCE: I think that's the only time. MR. SWALNELL: How did unmasking come up? Did he bring it up, or did you? MR. PRINCE: No. I asked what the committee was doing to investigate illegal leaks and illegal unmasking of American citizens doing business abroad. And he said: You ought to come in and talk to the committee about it sometime. MR.SNALNELL: formerly worked in the U.S. Intelligence Community may have revealed what, if true, would be extremely sensitive classified information. That is an unauthorized leak of classified information to you, if true. Is that your testimony today? MR. PRINCE: Yeah, they described the mechanics of how that works. And certainly by deductive reasoning, unless The Washington Post miraculously had recruited the bartender at a Seychelles hotel, it is amazing how they wound up with that information. MR. SNALNELL: I just want to clarify that you actually expressed earlier that it was more than just deductive reasoning; it1~as specific evidence that they had provided to you. Is that correct? MR. PRINCE: They described who would have the authorities to unmask and how that process works. And at that time, for when those UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 83 meetings happened, it was only Obama people in the NSC. MR. SNALNELL: And your testimony today is that you1will not tell us who told you that? MR. PRINCE: I'm not going to tell you in open session. MR. SNALNELL: You said that you have traveled to Russia twice. When did you go? MR. PRINCE: 1996 and I think in 2616 or 2611. MR. SNALNELL: Why did you go in 2616 or 2611? MR. PRINCE: I was invited there to go look at investment opportunities in some real estate and some of their agribusiness potential. MR. SNALNELL: Who invited you? MR. PRINCE: I don't remember. It was an I would say it was a non a non?western name. MR. SNALNELL: Was there any followup to that meeting? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SNALNELL: Did you make any investments in Russia? MR. PRINCE: Zero. MR. SNALNELL: Have you ever made an investment in Russia? MR. PRINCE: Zero. MR. SNALNELL: Do you have any business partnerships with any Russian nationals? MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. SNALNELL: Have any Russian nationals invested in any of your businesses? UNCLASSIFIED 84 UNCLASSIFIED MR. PRINCE: Nope. MR. SWALWELL: You mentioned that you have traveled to a lot of places, spent a lot of time on airplanes. Let's just limit it to 2916 and 2817. What has been the nature of your foreign travel? MR. PRINCE: Investment in natural resources, logistic support, medevac support, capital raising, business development. MR. SWALWELLthe former Soviet bloc countries in that time? MR. PRINCE: I've been to the Ukraine. MR. SWALWELL: When did you go to Ukraine? MR. PRINCE: I think I went in 2616. And they wanted -- they were tryingixJentice someoneixainvest and build a training Facility there. MR. SWALWELL: Who did you meet with in Ukraine? MR. PRINCE: A guy named I think Turanov, Andrey Turanov. MR. SWALWELL: Who invited you? MR. PRINCE: Andrey Turanov. MR. SWALWELL: How long did you stay? MR. PRINCE: I think 2 days, 3 days. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 85 [5:44 MR. SNALNELL: And what followup, if any, whether through investment or additional meetings, took place with Mr. Turanov? MR. PRINCE: None. MR. SNALNELL: Did you meet with any Russian nationals while in Ukraine? MR. PRINCE: Nope. MR. SNALNELL: Any other travel to any Former Soviet Union countries in 2616 or 2617? MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. SNALNELL: Did you go to Italy at all in 2816 or 2617? MR. PRINCE: Sure. MR. SNALNELL: How many times? And when, if you can recall? MR. PRINCE: I did a bike trip there last summer. MR. SNALNELL: Was that in June, July, or August? MR. PRINCE: Look, I'm not going to give you my personal travel dates to all these places. It has nothing do with what you're investigating here. MR. SNALNELL: So you're refusing to tell us when you were in Italy last summer? MR. PRINCE: I'm here voluntarily, but we're not going on a fishing expedition as to which European countries I've traveled to on vacation. MR. SNALNELL: Did you go to London in 2816 or 2617? MR. PRINCE: Of course. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 86 MR. SNALNELL: Okay. When you were in Italy -- MR. PRINCE: It's the center of capital movement in Europe. MR. SNALNELL: When you were in Italy in 2816, did you meet with any foreign nationals? MR. PRINCE: Well, if I met with an Italian, it would by definition be a foreign national. MR. SNALNELL: So that's yes. MR. PRINCE: Nell MR. SNALWELL: Did you meet with any non-Italians? MR. PRINCE: I had to hand my passport to the border police guy to get into the country. I had to meet with a foreign national. That's kind of a -- I'm sorry, that's way too open?ended of a question. MR. SNALNELL: Other than Italians, did you meet with any foreign nationals in Italy? MR. PRINCE: Not that I remember. MR. SNALNELL: Okay. How about in London? Other than the Brits, did you meet with any foreign nationals in London? MR. PRINCE: I really don't check passports of people, but certainly no one that appeared to be Russian. MR. SNALNELL: Did you go to Budapest at all in 2916 or 2617? MR. PRINCE: My book was published in Magyarbook event sometime in Hungary. I'm not sure when that was. MR. SNALNELL: Could have been 2816? MR. PRINCE: Possibly. MR. SNALNELL: And other than any Hungarian -- UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 87 MR. PRINCE: I mean, I did a lot of Hungarian media, so I guess you could check that. MR. SNALNELL: Did you meet with any foreign nationals that were non?Hungarian when you were in Hungary in approximately 2616? MR. PRINCE: Not that I know of. MR. SNALNELL: Did you happen to go to Prague in 2616 or 2617? MR. PRINCE: I don't think 50. MR. SNALNELL: Why was the Seychelles chosen by MR. PRINCE: Because it's cooler than the MR. SNALNELL: Is that what they told you? MR. PRINCE: Cooler, different temperature. I don't know. I mean, they one of them owns the resort down there. MR. SNALNELL: Do you have any accounts in the UAE I'm sorry. Do you have any accounts in the Seychelles? MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. SNALNELL: Have you been back to the Seychelles since that trip in January? MR. PRINCE: Nope. MR. SNALNELL: Other than the Russian investor, did UAE ask you to meet with any other investors or bankers? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SNALNELL: When was the last time you traveled overseas and were asked to make an unscheduled meeting with a Russian banker? Was this the first and only time it's ever happened? MR. PRINCE: Well, I don't I would say that's the I travel UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 88 abroad a lot. I take all kinds of unscheduled meetings. But, you know, I met Mr. Charlier, who was a Russian investment banker, and this other guy was there. And I met with him as a matter of as a matter of chance since I was in the Seychelles anyway. MR. SNALNELL: But Mr. Charlier, that was a -- when did you meet him? MR. PRINCE: Probably 5 years ago. MR. SNALNELL: Where did you meet him? MR. PRINCE: Mainland Europe somewhere. MR. SNALNELL: And who introduced you to him? MR. PRINCE: My colleague. MR. SNALNELL: So you can recall at least two times where you were traveling overseas and, while overseas, an impromptu meeting occurred with you and a Russian. MR. PRINCE: Sure. Just like I could have impromptu meetings with a U.K. citizen, 3 Polish citizen, an Emirati, a Saudi, a Qatari, you name it. I meet a lot of people. MR. SNALNELL: But you didn't meet with any of those in that January meeting other than the Russian banker. Is that right? MR. PRINCE: Correct. MR. SNALNELL: And when you met with the UAE, this was right after the election here in the United States and right before the inauguration. Did it -- MR. PRINCE: Well, it was 2 months after the election. MR. SNALNELL: It was after the election and right before the UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 89 inauguration. Did the election come up at all with the MR. PRINCE: I brought it up, and I said I was mighty happy with the results. MR. SNALNELL: participation ini?macampaign? MR. PRINCE: I don't know. MR. SNALNELL: Did they MR. PRINCE: I had certainly not been -- I had not been private about my thoughts. MR. SNALNELL: And, also, with the Russian who you met afterwards at the bar again, it's 2 months after the election, a week before the inauguration. Did the election or the inauguration come up with the Russian? MR. PRINCE: Other than that I said I think the United States can certainly work with Vladimir Putin to defeat Islamic fascism since previously Franklin Roosevelt had managed to do so with Josef Stalin. MR. SNALNELL: Have you ever met Donald Trump, Jr.? MR. PRINCE: I have. MR. SNALNELL: When? MR. PRINCEcampaign event, obviously before the election. MR. SNALNELL: Is that the only time you've met him? MR. PRINCE: No. I've seen him up in I ran into him a couple times when I was up there during the transition. MR. SNALNELL: Have you seen him since his father became President? UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 90 MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SNALNELL: When you talked to him during the campaign, did you express any of your views on Russia or did he ever express his or his father's views on Russia? MR. PRINCE: Nope. MR. SNALNELL: When you met him or engaged with him during the transition period, did you discuss your views on Russia or did he discuss with you he or his father's views on Russia? MR. PRINCE: No. Not at all. MR. SNALNELL: How about Keith Schiller? Have you ever met Keith Schiller? MR. PRINCE: I don't know who that is. MR. SNALNELL: Have you ever met Rhona Gratf? MR. PRINCE: Nope. MR. SNALNELL: Have you ever met Hope Hicks? MR. PRINCE: Nope. MR. SNALNELL: Have you ever met Ivanka Trump? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SNALNELL: Have you ever met Michael Cohen? MR. PRINCE: Nope. MR. SNALNELL: Have you ever met Joseph Schmitz? MR. PRINCE: Joe Schmitz? MR. SNALWELL: Yes. MR. PRINCE: Yeah. He's a lawyer that used to work for me. MR. SNALNELL: Did you ever talk to Joe Schmitz during the 2616 UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 91 campaign? MR. PRINCE: Sure. MR. SNALNELL: Did you ever talk with Mr. Schmitz about the campaign's policy platform with respect to Russia? MR. PRINCE: I don't think so, no. MR.SNALNELL: Hmmoftendid5KnJinteractwithMr. Schmitzduring the campaign? MR. PRINCE: Maybe twice. MR. SNALNELL: Was that in person or by phone? MR. PRINCE: Probably in person. MR. SNALWELL: If you didn't talk about Russia, what was the nature of the conversation? MR. PRINCE: Reducing the horrific wasteful spendingc?=the U.S. Government in its conduct abroad. As an inspector general at the Pentagon, that was one of his that was his main area of Focus and certainly an area of passion of his and mine. MR. SNALNELL: You know Mr. Rohrabacher, Dana Rohrabacher. MR. PRINCE: Of course. MR. SNALNELL: You worked For him. MR. PRINCE: I was an intern for him. MR. SNALNELL: Did you talk tolWr. Rohrabacher at all during the 2616 campaign about your views on Russia or his views? MR. PRINCE: I don't recall. No, I don't think I did. MR. SNALNELL: Did he ever discuss with you any travel that he took in 2616 over to Russia? UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 92 MR. PRINCE: Nope. MR. SNALMELL: When was the last time you talked to Mr. Rohrabacher? MR. PRINCE: Probably August or September. MR. SNALNELL: Of 2916 or 2617? MR. PRINCE: 2917. MR. SMALNELL: Okay. Did you discuss the Presidential campaign at all? MR. PRINCE: Well, at that point, we were discussing how to do a much better policy in Afghanistan to stop blowing $52 billion a year. MR. SNALNELL: Did you discuss Russia at all? MR. PRINCE: Nope. MR. SNALNELL: In 2016, which -- so, just to summarize, your position today is that you had no official role with the campaign. Is that correct? MR. PRINCE: That's correct. MR. SNALNELL: No official role with the transition. MR. PRINCE: Correct. MR. SNALNELL: No unofficial role, in your description, with the campaign. Is that right? MR. PRINCE: Correct. MR. SMALNELL: And no unofficial role, as you've described, with the transition. MR. PRINCE: I'm in no official capacity at all. MR. SWALNELL: But UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 93 MR. PRINCE: I am a citizen voter that cares about the wrong direction the country was headed in and how to change it, how to put it in what I thought was a better direction. MR. SNALNELL: So how would you describe the role of a citizen voter who wrote policy memos for a campaign, made multiple visits to Trump Tower, made six?figure donations to the campaign, and conducted a number of meetings with the campaign's manager? MR. PRINCE: Someone who cares about their country. MR. SNALNELL: Mr. Ranking Member, I'll yield back. MR. SCHIFF: I've got just a couple questions, and then I 11 yield to Mr. Castro. Mr. Charlier -- is that how you pronounce his name? MR. PRINCE: I think 50. MR. SCHIFF: is a Russian investment banker? That's how you described him? MR. PRINCE: Well, that's a French name. So I'm not sure of his citizenship even, but he works for a firm that had an office in Russia. He was the chairman of that firm -- became the chairman of that firm. MR. SCHIFF: And you explored with him, at least according to the correspondence in June of last year, potentially doing business with him or his investment bank in Africa. Is that correct? MR. PRINCE: Correct. MR. SCHIFF: Around bauxite or copper or other commodities. MR. PRINCE: Yeah, or the sale of an upstream exploration business. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 94 MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss with Mr. Dmitriev doing business around bauxite together or other investments? MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. SCHIFF: Why was it you would explore with one Russian investment banker potential business opportunities but you meet another Russian banker, who you didn't knowimas under sanctions -- why wouldn't you have explored MR. PRINCE: Because he was a big you described, they were doing big, very, very large deals. Mr. Charlier, from RenCap, did IImean, a $18 billion, $26 billion, $3 billion hedge fund doesn't do small deals. Just like all the big hedge funds in America that were looking at Africa funds have closed them all since they can't manage the overhead. But, anyway, RenCap focuses on small deals in emerging markets in the commodity space that we were in. And the knowledge of this guy came from a colleague of mine, because I think they went to school together back in college for their master's programs. MR. SCHIFF: And Mr. Dmitriev described his banking business to you involving much larger transactions? MR. PRINCE: Yeah, he just said hewwas a I said, you know, what do you do? And he said, I manage a hedge fund, and it's some multiple billions of dollars. MR. SCHIFF: But he gave you enough information to know that he dealt in big numbers, bigger than Mr. Charlier. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED 95 MR. PRINCE: Nell, again, an investment Fund puts money to work. Okay? Mr. Charlier works at a firm that raises money For businesses or helps buy or sell a business. It's almost like talking to a home developer lender versus talking to a real estate agent. MR. SCHIFF: I'm just trying to get a sense of what Mr. Dmitriev communicated to you about the nature of the bank he worked with. MR. PRINCE: Well, I wouldn't say he characterized as a bank. He said he works for a big fund. MR. SCHIFF: Did he tell you it was a Russian state fund? MR. PRINCE: NO. MR. SCHIFF: In the washington Post article about the meeting in the Seychelles MR. PRINCE: The one triggered by the illegal leaks, right? That one? MR. SCHIFF: The one entitled "Blackwater Founder Held Secret Seychelles Meeting to Establish Trump-Putin Back Channel," that article. It states, "Though the full agenda remains unclear, the UAE agreed to broker the meeting in part to explore whether Russia could be persuaded to curtail its relationship with Iran, including in Syria, a Trump administration objective that would be likely to require major concessions to Moscow on U.S. sanctions." Did you discuss with Mr. Dmitriev whether Russia could be persuaded to curtail its relationship with Iran? MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss with Mr. Dmitriev working with UNCLASSIFIED 96 UNCLASSIFIED Russia in any way in Syria? MR. PRINCE: No. Well, what I did say is, if we could work together with Josef Stalin, we could certainly work together with Vladimir Putin to defeat Islamic fascism. So, since there is Islamic fascism present in Syria, there would presumably, hopefully, be some cooperation to jointly work together to defeat them. MR. SCHIFF: But in terms of a specific mention of Syria, that never came up in the conversation? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. SCHIFF: It also provides in that article: Following the New York meeting between the Emiratis and Trump aides, Zayed was approached by Prince, who said he was authorized to act as an unofficial surrogate for the President?elect according to the officials. He wanted MR. PRINCE: Not true. MR. SCHIFF: Okay. I was going to ask you if that's true. He wanted Zayed to set up a meeting with a Putin associate. MR. PRINCE: Not true. MR. SCHIFF: Zayed agreed and proposed the Seychelles as the meeting place because of the privacy it would afford both sides. MR. PRINCE: Like I said, not true. Fabrication. MR. SCHIFF: He wanted to be helpful, one official said of Zayed. MR. PRINCE: who wanted to be who is this unnamed official reading unmasked transcripts? MR. SCHIFF: Well, I'm asking -- MR. PRINCE: Or surmising. UNCLASSIFIED 97 UNCLASSIFIED MR. SCHIFF: -- I'm asking you I mean, you're saying none of this is true, right? So presumably it wouldn't be transcripts, would it? You never had these conversations, did you? MR. PRINCE: Nope. MR.SCHIFF: right? MR. PRINCE: Not a transcript. But I can't imagine who the anonymous fabricator of this story is. MR. SCHIFF: Okay. Let me yield to Mr. Castro. MR. CASTRO: In a November 4, 2816, Breitbart article, you are quoted as saying you had, quote, "well?placed sources" in the New?York Police Department and that you had insider knowledge of then-FBI Director Comey's investigation into Hillary Clinton's email server. You also claimed that you believed that multiple foreign agencies hacked Hillary Clinton's private email server. Did you ever have sources in the NYPD giving you insider knowledge about FBI investigations? MR. PRINCE: Not certainly about FBI investigations. But, I that admitted to hacking the DNC emails. MR. CASTRO: Is that what the NYPD folks were talking to you about? MR. PRINCE: N0. MR. CASTRO: So, I guess, why were you quoted in that story as UNCLASSIFIED 98 UNCLASSIFIED saying that somebody in NYPD was telling you stuff? MR. PRINCE: How is this germane to this fishing expedition? MR. CASTRO: Well, it's germane in terms of what we're covering because of the hacks during the election, because you've been quoted as speaking on that subject, and also because of the leaks. So what was NYPD telling you? MR. PRINCE: That had to do with Anthony Neiner's computer. MR. CASTRO: Okay. What were you told by these folks at NYPD, and who told you? MR. PRINCE: That I'm not going to talk about today. MR. CASTRO: You're refusing to answer the question? MR. PRINCE: Correct. I'm not going to disclose the source. MR. CASTRO: Mr. Chairmarb I would ask that if helvants to answer it in closed session, we can take it in closed session, but he'd got no reason to -- MR. PRINCE: So, no, I'm not going;to disclose that source at the NYPD because this is a leaky committee, and I will not do it. MR. CASTRO: Mr. Chairman, this is well within the purview of what we're -- CHAIRMAN CONANAY: Right. UNCLASSIFIED UNCLASSIFIED MR. CASTRO: trying to figure out. CHAIRMAN CONAWAY: Well, he's here, Joaquin, on a voluntary basis. There's no way to compel him to do that at this stage. MR. CASTRO: I understand that. Then I would ask the ranking member and the chairman to at some point compel the witness to answer that in the future. But I'll continue. MR. PRINCE: MR. CASTRO: CHAIRMAN CONANAY: We?ll take that under advisement. MR. CASTRO: What information did you receive from folks at NYPD about Hillary Clinton's emails? MR. PRINCE: I didn't say:itmms about Hillary'Clinton's emails. I said it was about Anthony Neiner's emails. MR. CASTRO: Well, what information did you receive about that? MR. PRINCE: Like I said, we're not going to go further on that line of questioning. MR. CASTRO: We can figure out revealing the source later. I'm just asking you what they told you. MR. PRINCE: They discussed the nature of the large trove of UNCLASSIFIED 100 UNCLASSIFIED Hillary Clinton's emails, which actually included a large number of classified emails, that were somehow resident on Anthony Neiner's computer from someone backing up their computer or backing up their mobile device. And I really appreciate the committee's interest in the preservation of all this electronic information. I only hope that they were as diligent in doing that when Secretary Clinton had thousands of emails that disappeared. And I just would hope that the committee CHAIRMAN CONANAY: Mr. Prince, that's not within our jurisdiction. MR. PRINCE: -- is pursuing equal justice. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: Mr. Prince, that's not within our jurisdiction. Go ahead, Mr. Castro. MR. CASTRO: Did you ever share any of the information that you received from folks at NYPD with anyone on the Trump campaign? If so, who? MR. PRINCE: I did it in an interview. That's all. MR.CASTRO: Rudy Giuliani? MR. PRINCE: Nope. MR. CASTRO: I have some questions about your methods of communication in case this committee needs to verify anything that you've said. UNCLASSIFIED 101 UNCLASSIFIED From the period of, we'll use June 2615 as a starting point, to the present day, I'm going to ask you about how many emails you have, how many cell phones you have, and whether you use apps. So how many email accounts have you used during that period? MR. PRINCE: I have produced all the relevant documentation that the committee has asked for. And, in fact, in reading your letter, the only thing I haven't provided is a plane ticket. MR. CASTRO: And, Mr. Prince, this is a standard question that I think every witness has answered. We're not picking on you; it's not a special question for you. We just need to have this understanding in case there's an inconsistency'in your testimony and something needs to be verified. MR. PRINCE: Well, do I use apps? Sure. MR. CASTRO: Okay. Which ones? MR. PRINCE: I'm a big Fan of Wickr. MR. CASTRO: Okay. How about Signal? MR. PRINCE: I've used it in the past, sure. MR. CASTRO: During this time period. I?m only asking during this time period, not 2612 or 2613. MR. PRINCE: I don't think it existed then. MR. CASTRO: Okay. So, during this time period, did you use Signal? MR. PRINCE: Possibly. Sure. MR. CASTRO: What else? Which other ones? MR. PRINCE: That's it. UNCLASSI FIED 102 UNCLASSIFIED MR. CASTRO: Telegram? MR. PRINCE: Huh?uh, no. MR. CASTRO: NhatsApp? MR. PRINCE: That's not an app. MR. CASTRO: Did you use NhatsApp? MR. PRINCE: Facebook paid $19 billion for NhatsApp because everything is monitored and collected. It is the opposite 0% an app. MR. CASTRO: Great. Did you use WhatsApp? MR. PRINCE: Sure. MR. CASTRO: Did you communicate through direct message on Twitter or Facebook? MR. PRINCE: I don't use any of that. MR. CASTRO: Okay. How many cell phones did you use during the period that I stated? MR. PRINCE: Two. MR. CASTRO: Were they both personal? Were they one a business phone, one a personal phone? MR. PRINCE: Personal phones. MR. CASTRO: Did you use any burner phones? MR. PRINCE: No. MR. CASTRO: We spoke about apps. How about email addresses? MR. PRINCE: I have a couple email addresses, but I'm certainly not going to list those to you here. MR. CASTRO: Are they business addresses? Personal addresses? UNCLASSIFIED 103 UNCLASSIFIED MR. PRINCE: Like I said, I'm not answering any more on emails. I've provided everything you've asked for in your discovery request. MR. CASTRO: And, again, I've explained that with every witness we've asked these questions in case we need to verify things, in case any witness, not you in particular, in case any witness is not telling us the whole truth or is lying to us. How else are we going to go verify this stuff? MR. PRINCE: Email addresses? Three. MR. CASTRO: Are they personal or business email addresses? MR. PRINCE: I would say two business and one personal. MR. CASTRO: I yield back to the ranking member. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Chairman, we'd now like to try to resolve the process for either redacting information in the record or going into closed session so that we may obtain the information that the -- CHAIRMAN CONANAY: All right. Before we do that, Tom's got a question real quick. MR. ROONEY: I've just goteaparliamentary'question. Mr. Schiff mentioned that if the witness wasn't complying with the line of questions that were being asked that we would issue a subpoena. Is it not the rule of this committee that a subpoena can only be issued by a vote of the committee or, I believe, by the chairman? CHAIRMAN By the chairman. That's correct. MR. ROONEY: So I just want to be clear that, when you say that we're going to issue a subpoena, there's a lot of people that aren't here, and I certainly don't want the ranking member to be speaking for UNCLASSIFIED 104 UNCLASSIFIED those people that aren't here nor some of the people that are here, because we have no idea if we'd actually be able to get that vote. We might. But, I mean, I think that just saying that we' re going to subpoena any witness, whether it's this one or any one, needs to be taken into the context of that has to be voted on. Is that correct? CHAIRMAN CONANAY: The chairman has the prerogative of issuing a subpoena at my request. MR. RODNEY: Thank you. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: So,hhu indulge uszacouple more minutes, let's go off the record. [Discussion held off the record.] CHAIRMAN CONANAY: Let's go back on the record. So, Mr. Prince, it's our understanding that you will check with your sources with respect to the folks that you believe gave you the information relative to SIGINT MR. PRINCE: Sure. CHAIRMAN CONANAY: -- on the Seychelles. And if they'll agree to give you the names, you'll come back to us with that name. The committee reserves the right to subpoena you again -- or to subpoena you if, in fact, we need to get that done. We'll need to have further conversations with you relative to the NYPD folks as well. I ask unanimous consent that the committee staff be authorized. to make any technical, grammatical, or conforming changes, including redactions of personally identifiable information, to the transcript UNCLASSIFIED 105 UNCLASSIFIED before it is released. Without objection, so ordered. I alsc:ask unanimous consentc?3the committee's security director to review the transcript of today's hearing to ensure appropriate classification and to make any necessary redactions of classified information from open session before the transcript is released. And I believe Mr. Prince can review that transcript as well. Our committee's rules, Mr. Prince, allow usiereleaseiizwithin 3 days. So if you care to come in and read the transcript for editing purposes only, you're more than welcome do that. Without objection, that is so ordered. And we are adjourned. Thank you, sir. [Whereupon, at 6:14 the committee was adjourned.] UNCLASSIFIED