UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE EXECUTIVE SESSION PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. INTERVIEW OF: DONALD TRUMP, JR. Wednesday, December 6, 2017 Washington, D.C. The interview in the above matter was held in Room HVC-304, the Capitol, commencing at 9:59 a.m. Present: Representatives Conaway, King, LoBiondo, Rooney, UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 1 UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 2 Ros-Lehtinen, Wenstrup, Stewart, Gowdy, Stefanik, Schiff, Himes, Sewell, Speier, Quigley, Swalwell, Castro, and Heck. Also Present: Representative Granger. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE Appearances: For the PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE: For DONALD TRUMP, JR.: ALAN S. FUTERFAS, ESQ. 565 FIFTH AVENUE, 7TH FLOOR NEW YORK, NY 10017 UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 3 UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE ALAN G. GARTEN EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT AND CHIEF LEGAL OFFICER THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION 725 FIFTH AVENUE NEW YORK, NY 10022 KARINA V. LYNCH, ESQ. WILLIAMS & JENSEN, PLLC 701 8TH STREET, N.W. WASHINGTON, DC 20001 UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 4 UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 5 Good morning. This is an unclassified transcribed interview of Donald Trump, Jr. Thank you for being here today. For the record, I am a staff member of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. Others present today will introduce themselves when they speak. Before we begin, I have a security reminder. Please make sure that you've left all of your electronics outside. I also want to state a few things for the record. The questioning will be conducted by members, and potentially by staff, during their allotted time period. Some questions may seem basic, but that is because we need to clearly establish facts and understand the situation. Please do not assume we know any facts that you have previously disclosed as part of any other investigation or review. We ask that you give complete and fulsome replies to questions based on your best recollection. If a question is unclear or you're uncertain in your response, please let us know. And if you do not know the answer to a question or cannot remember, simply say so. During the course of this interview, we will take any breaks that you desire. The interview will be transcribed. There's a reporter making a record of these proceedings so we can easily consult a written compilation of your answers. Because the reporter cannot record gestures, we ask that you answer verbally. If you forget to do this, you may be reminded to do so. You may also be asked to spell certain terms or unusual phrases. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 6 Additionally, there's a green button on the microphone. If everyone present could just make sure to press that when speaking so the reporters can hear you clearly. You are entitled to have counsel present for this interview, though you are not required to do so. I see you have counsel present and would ask that your attorneys make an appearance for the record at this time. MR. FUTERFAS: Good morning. Thank you for inviting us to this committee. My name is Alan Futerfas, counsel for Mr. Trump, Jr. MR. GARTEN: Alan Garten, general counsel for the Trump administration. MS. LYNCH: Karina Lynch, Williams & Jensen, counsel for Donald Trump, Jr. Thank you. To ensure confidentiality, we ask that you do not discuss the interview with anyone other than your attorneys. Consistent with the committee's rules of procedures, you and your counsel, if you wish, will have a reasonable opportunity to inspect the transcript of this interview in order to determine whether your answers were correctly transcribed. The transcript will remain in the committee's custody. The committee also reserves the right to request your return for additional questions should the need arise. The process for the interview is as follows. The minority will be given 45 minutes to ask questions, then the majority will be given 45 minutes to ask questions. Immediately thereafter, we can take a brief break if you'd like, after which, the minority will be given 15 minutes to ask questions and the majority will be given 15 minutes to ask questions. We will then proceed in subsequent UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 7 15-minute rounds. These time limits will be strictly adhered to with no extensions being granted. Our record today will reflect that you have not been compelled to appear. You are reminded that it is unlawful to deliberately provide false information to Members of Congress or staff. The record will also reflect you are voluntarily participating in this interview under oath. At this time, please raise your right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? MR. TRUMP: I do. Thank you. Mr. Conaway. MR. CONAWAY: Good morning, Mr. Trump. Thank you for coming this morning. We appreciate you coming in. We'll conduct the interview. Adam, any statements you have? MR. SCHIFF: No. Mr. Trump, welcome to the committee. Appreciate your being here. MR. TRUMP: Thank you. Good to be here. MR. CONAWAY: With that, I'll turn it to the ranking member for his 45 minutes. MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Trump, let me begin by asking you about your relationship with Rob Goldstone. When did you first meet Mr. Goldstone, and what was the nature of your relationship? MR. TRUMP: I believe I first met Mr. Goldstone at an event we held in UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 8 Florida, the WGC Cadillac championship. It was a golf tournament. He's a manager of Mr. Emin Agalarov, who was performing there. MR. SCHIFF: And how long ago was that? MR. TRUMP: I believe that was March of 2014. MR. SCHIFF: And since 2014, how often would you have contact with Mr. Goldstone? MR. TRUMP: He would occasionally email me. I think that was probably -- that was the first time I met him. Then I met him in New York on one of the meetings I'm sure we'll discuss later on today. And other than casual email correspondence, I don't know that we've met again. MR. SCHIFF: Well, between the time you met him in 2014 and last year, how many times did you see him in person? MR. TRUMP: Face to face, I believe, twice. MR. SCHIFF: And what were those occasions? MR. TRUMP: The golf tournament and the meeting on whatever -- whatever it was, in June of 2016. MR. SCHIFF: So the golf tournament in 2014, between the golf tournament in 2014 and the meeting at Trump Tower in 2016, you hadn't seen him in person at all? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. I may have met casually, but I don't believe I had. MR. SCHIFF: How often would you receive email correspondence from him, say, during 2014 and 2015? MR. TRUMP: It'd be every few months. MR. SCHIFF: And how about telephone conversations? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 9 MR. TRUMP: I don't recall any, but maybe casually once or twice. MR. SCHIFF: So this isn't someone that you heard from frequently? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. SCHIFF: And was your relationship with him strictly business, concerning his representation of Emin Agalarov? MR. TRUMP: Generally speaking, yes. MR. SCHIFF: Did he have a relationship with anyone else in your family? MR. TRUMP: I believe he had met my father perhaps at Miss Universe, but I don't know for sure. MR. SCHIFF: In terms of your conversations with him, did you talk frequently enough for you to have his phone number in your phone? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe I had it in my phone when we were doing our research, but I'm not sure. I may have. MR. SCHIFF: And prior to the email correspondence that initiated the meeting in Trump Tower, do you recall the last time that you heard from Mr. Goldstone? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SCHIFF: You mentioned that he may have had some contact with your father. What can you tell us, if anything, about his relationship with your father? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe there's much of a relationship other than he was a manager of someone that performed at Miss Universe and performed at the WGC Cadillac championship a few months later. So maybe as part of that. But I don't believe there was any other relationship there. MR. SCHIFF: Did he know your father well enough to either call him or UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 10 write him directly? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so, no. MR. SCHIFF: Now, on June 3, Mr. Goldstone sent you an email with the subject line, "Russia - Clinton - private and confidential." Were you expecting this email? MR. TRUMP: I was not. MR. SCHIFF: And where were you when you received the email? MR. TRUMP: I believe I was in New York City. MR. SCHIFF: And what were you doing in New York City? MR. TRUMP: I was working on the campaign and our business at the time. MR. SCHIFF: Your email response to Mr. Goldstone, I think around 20 minutes after receiving it, was that you were on the road. Would that have referred to New York, or would that have referred to somewhere else? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. Maybe I was on the road. I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: Would it refresh your recollection to see your email that made reference to being on the road? MR. TRUMP: It would, please. MR. SCHIFF: Could we produce that for the witness. MR. TRUMP: Thank you. MR. SCHIFF: Does that help you recall at all where you may have been when you received Mr. Goldstone's email? MR. TRUMP: No. It just clarifies that, I guess, I was on the road, but I was all over the place at that time, so I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: Would that indicate to you that you were not in New York? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 11 MR. TRUMP: Probably. MR. SCHIFF: And do you know who you were with on the road at the time you received the email? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SCHIFF: What records would exist that would help you determine where you would have been at the time? MR. TRUMP: Perhaps my calendar would have where I would be. MR. SCHIFF: I think we have your calendar, but I think much of your calendar is blacked out. Do you have a copy of your calendar such that you could refresh your recollection? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SCHIFF: When you received Mr. Goldstone's email, did you discuss it with anyone that you were traveling with? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss that you received the email with anyone? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. SCHIFF: June 3 was a Friday. Did you talk with anyone over the weekend about the email? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: Was this the first time that Mr. Goldstone reached out to you about the campaign? MR. TRUMP: No. He had sent sporadic congratulations along the way as we won primaries or such. MR. SCHIFF: Was this the first communication you received from Mr. Goldstone where he indicated that the Russian Government wanted to provide UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 12 assistance to the campaign? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. FUTERFAS: I object to the form of the question. I'll permit my client to answer it, but I think there's a characterization of the email. So in any event, we can proceed, but I just want to note that. MR. SCHIFF: It's what the email explicitly says. Prior to receiving the June 3 email, when had you last spoken to Mr. Goldstone? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Goldstone's email mentions Emin and Aras. This is Emin Agalarov and Aras Agalarov? MR. TRUMP: I believe so, yes. MR. SCHIFF: After you received the email from Rob Goldstone, did you discuss it with your father at any time? MR. TRUMP: No, not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: So at no point you discussed receiving the email from Mr. Goldstone offering dirt on Hillary Clinton? MR. TRUMP: With my father? MR. SCHIFF: Yes. MR. TRUMP: No, not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: Tell us, if you would, who the Agalarovs are. MR. TRUMP: They're real estate developers in Russia and Azerbaijan. They hosted us with the Miss Universe pageant in 2013 in Moscow. That's how I know them. MR. SCHIFF: Did you attend the pageant? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 13 MR. TRUMP: I did not. MR. SCHIFF: There was also a pageant event in Las Vegas. Did you attend that? MR. TRUMP: I did not. MR. SCHIFF: And how well did you know Aras Agalarov? MR. TRUMP: I've never met. MR. SCHIFF: And how about Emin? MR. TRUMP: I had met him at the WGC championship. I believe that was the first time I'd met him in person. We had discussed a potential real estate transaction. Shortly after that, during that period of time nothing materialized from it, so we'd had some conversations thereabouts, but that's the extent of it generally. MR. SCHIFF: And what was the real estate transaction you discussed Emin Agalarov? MR. TRUMP: We were looking to potentially do a Trump Tower in Moscow adjacent to the Crocus City Hall, which was the venue that held the Miss Universe pageant. MR. SCHIFF: And when did those discussions take place? MR. TRUMP: Shortly after the pageant and for a period of a few months. MR. SCHIFF: Was Emin involved with his father's business? MR. TRUMP: He was -- I'd never spoken to the father, to my knowledge. Maybe he was on a conference call. But my primary point of contact would have been through Emin on that deal. MR. SCHIFF: And was Emin in the real estate business apart from being a performer? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 14 MR. TRUMP: I believe he was. It appeared that way. MR. SCHIFF: And why didn't the Trump Tower deal materialize that you discussed with Emin? MR. TRUMP: In the end it sort of fizzled out. I think we believed it was maybe not the best location for a first entree into, you know, a major market. It was a little bit outside of the CBD that we would have wanted to develop an ultra luxury project. MR. SCHIFF: When did you or Emin conclude that that project wasn't going to happen? MR. TRUMP: It was one of those deals that just sort of -- there was never a definitive discussion. People just sort of put pencils down on both sides and never proceeded. MR. SCHIFF: And about what time period would that have been? MR. TRUMP: I would imagine that would have been -- and, again, I'm just trying to give you a best guess estimate -- but probably end of '14. MR. SCHIFF: What is your father's relationship with the Agalarovs? MR. TRUMP: Casual friendship. They had done some business together with the Miss Universe pageant. That's about the extent of it. MR. SCHIFF: Do you know how often your father was in contact with Aras Agalarov? MR. TRUMP: Not particularly, no. MR. SCHIFF: And do you know how they were introduced to each other? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SCHIFF: Did they maintain personal communication with each other after the Miss Universe pageant? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE MR. TRUMP: I believe casual correspondence, yes. MR. SCHIFF: And how would they communicate with each other? MR. TRUMP: I believe mostly letter, occasional congratulations, like we would get from my of our partners along the way. MR. SCHIFF: Did they communicate by email? MR. TRUMP: My father doesn't generally use email, so I don't -- I don't think so. I know they were -- in preparation for this I saw that there were some emails sent by Mr. Goldstone congratulating him on behalf of Aras, but that's the extent of my knowledge. MR. SCHIFF: And emails to your father, are those delivered to Rhona to be read to the President, or what was the practice last year? MR. TRUMP: Generally speaking, people would contact her, yes. MR. SCHIFF: Does your sister Ivanka have a relationship with the Agalarovs? MR. TRUMP: I believe she's met Emin. I believe she visited the site in question that we were talking about the real estate transaction on, but I don't believe there's any real relationship there, no. MR. SCHIFF: And how about your brother Eric? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: Does Jared Kushner have a relationship with the Agalarovs? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: Are there any other of the Trump administration, current administration, or Trump campaign officials that you're aware had a relationship with the Agalarovs? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 15 UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 16 MR. TRUMP: No, not that I'm aware of. MR. SCHIFF: Prior to the June 3 email, had the Agalarovs offered their support or assistance to the campaign? MR. TRUMP: Not that I'm aware of. MR. SCHIFF: Do you have the copy of the email chain between you and Mr. Goldstone? MR. TRUMP: Yes. The one you gave me? MR. SCHIFF: Yes. It should be Bates stamped 485 to 487. MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SCHIFF: Is this copy an accurate representation of what you tweeted publicly? MR. TRUMP: I believe so. MR. SCHIFF: And does this email capture the entire communication with Mr. Goldstone on this matter? MR. FUTERFAS: Just for clarification, we believe it does. We found after this tweet that there were responses. There might be one or two small material responses that were not tweeted, but -- and I think those were turned over to another committee. I don't know if they were turned over to your committee. But in all material respects, that's the accurate email chain. MR. SCHIFF: Well, when you say they were not tweeted, are you talking about when Mr. Trump tweeted out his email exchange? MR. FUTERFAS: That is correct. And then what we found is after that there were one or two other basically scheduling lines, very short, that -MR. TRUMP: That they weren't on the chain, I think. It was just separate. MR. FUTERFAS: Right. They weren't on this particular chain. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 17 MR. TRUMP: Yeah. MR. SCHIFF: Have those been produced to this committee? MR. FUTERFAS: I believe they have, but we could check. MR. SCHIFF: If you would check to be sure. MR. FUTERFAS: We will do that. MR. TRUMP: Of course. MR. SCHIFF: We received, I think, just within the last 24 hours additional 300 pages of discovery. Why was that provided at this late date? MR. FUTERFAS: Are you asking me or asking the witness? MR. SCHIFF: Well, I'm asking anyone who can answer the question. MR. FUTERFAS: We have been responding to numbers of committees. We have been continuing to collect information. And in preparation for this we did additional searches and -- to make sure that your committee had whatever else was out there, and we kind of redoubled our efforts to make sure that this committee had whatever it needed and that we were fully responsive. MR. CONAWAY: If you could use the microphone. She's having a hard time recording. MR. FUTERFAS: I'm sorry. We were -- we've obviously been responding to various committees, different requests from various committees. And in preparation for this interview, we redoubled our efforts. We went back. We ran additional searches to make sure this committee had everything that it needed. And that's -- and those additional searches revealed or at least uncovered those additional documents and we wanted to make sure that you all had them. So it was really, getting preparation for this, we kind of redoubled our efforts to make sure you had everything. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 18 MR. SCHIFF: And, Mr. Trump, are you prepared to represent that you've made complete production to the committee, not withheld any documents relevant to the investigation? MR. TRUMP: As far as I'm aware, yes. MR. SCHIFF: The email chain with Mr. Goldstone that you tweeted out that you have before you, has it been altered in any way? MR. TRUMP: Not that I'm aware of, no. MR. SCHIFF: Apart from the documents your counsel referenced, were there any other email messages exchanged during the conversation that were not forwarded as a part of the chain that you posted? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so, no. MR. SCHIFF: Were there any other emails or text messages or other communications with Emin or Aras Agalarov about the subject of this email exchange? MR. TRUMP: I do not believe so. MR. SCHIFF: Did you email or send text messages or have other written communications with Jared Kushner, Paul Manafort, or anyone else on the campaign about the meeting that's referenced in these emails? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe I did. I believe I just asked them to attend. MR. SCHIFF: The email you posted shows that you forwarded the chain to Kushner and Manafort. Did either of them reply to you? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: How did you decide which version of the email to release publicly? MR. TRUMP: I just released the one that I had. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 19 MR. SCHIFF: And who did you consult in that decision? MR. TRUMP: Counsel. MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss it with anyone other than counsel? MR. TRUMP: Not anyone other than in privileged conversations. MR. SCHIFF: Now, Mr. Trump, apart from counsel, there are no privileged conversations. MR. TRUMP: Correct. So it would've been with counsel. So the answer is no. MR. SCHIFF: So the decision to release the emails publicly you never discussed with your father? MR. TRUMP: Not without counsel. MR. SCHIFF: Not without counsel present? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. SCHIFF: So you did discuss this with your father with counsel present? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SCHIFF: And did you discuss this with Mr. Kushner as well? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss it with Mr. Manafort? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss it with anyone else, whether counsel was present or not present? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so, no. MR. SCHIFF: So the only one you discussed the release of these emails with was your father, apart from counsel? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 20 MR. TRUMP: I believe so. MR. FUTERFAS: To be clear, as to the last question, during that communication we understand that his father had counsel present as well for that conversation. MR. SCHIFF: You received the email from Mr. Goldstone on June 3 and responded within 20 minutes. Did you talk with anyone else before you responded? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so, no. MR. SCHIFF: And what was your understanding of what Mr. Goldstone was offering in that email when you received it? MR. TRUMP: Frankly, I didn't know exactly what to understand of it. MR. SCHIFF: Well, what was your best understanding of what he was offering? MR. TRUMP: Well, it says what it says. But I also understood Rob to be a rather colorful music promoter. He was Michael Jackson's manager and a former tabloid journalist. So I think I was a little bit skeptical of what it could be, which is why I asked to speak to Emin and why I also said, you know, maybe we can deal with this at a later time because we were in a pretty busy situation. MR. SCHIFF: Had you or your campaign gotten prior offers of assistance from Russia? MR. TRUMP: Not that I'm aware of. MR. SCHIFF: Had you or your campaign asked for Russia's assistance? MR. TRUMP: Not that I'm aware of. MR. SCHIFF: So this was the first offer and only offer of assistance from UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 21 Russia to your father's campaign that you're aware of? MR. TRUMP: Well, I don't know that that was what it was, but that's what Rob says. MR. SCHIFF: And that would have been the first offer of that kind from Russia that you're aware of? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. SCHIFF: And the only offer? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SCHIFF: And were you surprise by the offer? MR. TRUMP: Again, I wasn't sure exactly what to make of it, understanding Rob. But, you know, as is pretty clear, I told him I'm on the road, maybe I'd speak to Emin first, seems we have a lot of time, if we could do it later, even later in the summer. So, again, I wasn't sure quite what to make of it. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Goldstone's email refers to the crown prosecutor of Russia and that he had met with Aras Agalarov. Were you aware of any relationship between the crown prosecutor and Aras Agalarov? MR. TRUMP: No. And I'm not even aware that a crown prosecutor is a real thing in Russia. MR. SCHIFF: And was that something you were aware of at the time? MR. TRUMP: I just -- I didn't know. MR. SCHIFF: Did you have any reason to question whether there was a crown prosecutor of Russia at the time that you received the email? MR. TRUMP: Other than understanding Rob's personality and potential for hyperbole, probably no. MR. SCHIFF: And yet you suggested two of the top campaign people UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 22 meet with Rob and these emissaries for Mr. Agalarov, notwithstanding your view of Mr. Goldstone? MR. TRUMP: I think that would be pretty common. We all worked in the same building. We would jump in on meetings daily. MR. SCHIFF: When Mr. Goldstone represented that the Agalarovs had information, official documents that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia that would be very useful to your father, what was your understanding of what you were being offered? MR. TRUMP: I didn't know what I was being offered. I know what Rob wrote, but, again, I had no way to validate any of that. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Goldstone wrote that this was part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump, helped along by Aras and Emin. Did you understand what he meant by that? MR. TRUMP: No, because I was not aware of any support from Russia. MR. SCHIFF: You replied less than 20 minutes later saying, "If that's what you say, I love it, especially later in the summer." Why were you willing to accept help that was part of Russia and its government's support for your father? MR. TRUMP: Well, I think what I say "I love it," especially if I'm putting it off by a few months, it's a colloquial term of expression, as I said in my statement a few months ago. I would have been willing to listen and hear him out, and, you know, again, that's about the extent of it. But at the time I wasn't giving it too much credence, otherwise I wouldn't have put it off till the end of summer. MR. SCHIFF: Well, were you putting it off till the end of summer or were you saying that the best timing to receive the derogatory information on Secretary Clinton would be in late summer? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 23 MR. TRUMP: I don't even know. We were still dealing with a contested convention. It wasn't something I wanted to deal with, with potential for a contested convention. So it wasn't something that I would have wanted to deal with right now. It didn't matter that much to me. MR. SCHIFF: And yet, notwithstanding the contested convention and the sensitivity of time, you immediately set up a meeting in Trump Tower with these emissaries. MR. TRUMP: They followed up with me. And, you know, like I said, I didn't -- he reached out to me each of those times. He then follows up 3 days later and says, you know, can we set up the meeting? I would have been willing to meet, you know, his friends or partners or boss. They were people who had done business with us. We had looked at other deals together. So it was a relationship that they would have said, "Hey, we're going to be in town, I want to meet," I would have done that as well. MR. SCHIFF: Well, if you're interested in -- it was a meeting in late summer rather than the revelation of the dirt in late summer, why did you have the meeting almost immediately thereafter? MR. TRUMP: Because they pressed, and I was in town, so I took the meeting. MR. SCHIFF: And what did you mean by saying that you would love that kind of information? MR. TRUMP: I would say, you know, if a friend says, "Hey, you want to go grab a beer after work?" -- "Sure, I love it." I think it's a colloquial term of expression. I think it's pretty clear by when I say, you know, if it's what you say, that I'm at least somewhat skeptical of what he's putting out there, but, again, I'd UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 24 be willing to listen. MR. SCHIFF: Well, he wasn't offering you a beer though. He was offering you damaging information on your political opponent, right? MR. TRUMP: As I said, I'd be willing to listen. MR. SCHIFF: Well, it's more than you were willing to listen. You would welcome, indeed love that kind of assistance. Isn't that what you were communicating? MR. TRUMP: As I said, in a colloquial manner, that's what I would respond if -- to people asking me numerous things throughout the day. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Goldstone indicated this was particularly sensitive information. Why didn't you ask him what information it was in the email? MR. TRUMP: Because I wasn't sure what to make of it. MR. SCHIFF: Were you also concerned that this would be put in writing? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. SCHIFF: The email describes this as part of Russia and its government's support for your father's campaign. To your understanding, what was meant by part of Russia's support? MR. TRUMP: I have no idea. MR. SCHIFF: Were you aware of other ways in which Russia was supporting your father's campaign? MR. TRUMP: I'm not. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Goldstone's email also says that he can send -- "also send this information to your father via Rhona, but it is ultra sensitive so wanted to send it to you first." Who is Rhona? MR. TRUMP: My father's assistant. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 25 MR. SCHIFF: And what role does she play in The Trump Organization? MR. TRUMP: She's my father assistant. MR. SCHIFF: Does all the communication go through her to Mr. Trump? MR. TRUMP: I don't know about all, but a lot of people would probably go through her, yes. MR. SCHIFF: So she reads the majority of the correspondence in emails that go to your father? MR. TRUMP: I would imagine so, yes. MR. SCHIFF: Does she also answer his phone? MR. TRUMP: On occasion, yes. MR. SCHIFF: And handle his appointments? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SCHIFF: Could or would someone contact your father without going through Rhona? MR. TRUMP: Possibly, yes. MR. SCHIFF: And how would they do that? MR. TRUMP: Likely by calling him. MR. SCHIFF: So a few people would have a direct number for your father last year? MR. TRUMP: I would imagine so, yes. MR. SCHIFF: And the rest would have to go through Rhona? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Goldstone send this information to Rhona? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: Was this deemed too sensitive to send to Rhona and rather UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 26 something that would be better you discussed over the phone? MR. TRUMP: No. I think if I felt that way, I probably would not have responded in email. MR. SCHIFF: But you didn't respond in email in the sense of asking him to send Rhona the information, did you? MR. TRUMP: I didn't respond about Rhona at all, no. MR. SCHIFF: And you didn't ask him to email you the information? MR. TRUMP: No. I just asked if I could speak to Emin. MR. SCHIFF: Instead, they arranged to have people fly all the way from Moscow to sit down in a private meeting. MR. TRUMP: My understanding is that the person, the lawyer in question, was actually already on her way over here to deal with other matters that she was doing. I think that's made clear later on in the email chain. MR. SCHIFF: But nonetheless, you didn't want this information sent to you or sent to Rhona? MR. TRUMP: I don't know that I thought about it one way or the other. MR. SCHIFF: If time was so precious at this point in the campaign, wouldn't it have been easier to just email you the information about Hillary Clinton? MR. TRUMP: Again, I didn't follow up for a few days after my initial response to him. He contacted me. I was going to be around, so I was willing to take the meeting. MR. SCHIFF: And prior to the meeting, did you tell your father about the email or the overture that Mr. Goldstone had made? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. SCHIFF: Did you tell Mr. Manafort about it? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 27 MR. TRUMP: I had mentioned it to them, if they could come by the meeting when that was eventually set up. I don't know if I spoke to them. I don't believe I spoke to them before that. MR. SCHIFF: So you forward them an email, but you never discussed what the meeting would be about? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. Perhaps the email spoke for itself, but I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall having a conversation with Mr. Manafort that the Agalarovs were offering you information from the Russian Government that was derogatory about Secretary Clinton? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall having a conversation with him about it, no. MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall discussing the matter with Mr. Kushner? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall discussing the matter with anyone else? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SCHIFF: And prior to the meeting, did you have any conversation with your father about the Agalarovs' effort or offer to help with information about Secretary Clinton? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. SCHIFF: Why wouldn't you share this with your father? MR. TRUMP: Because, understanding Rob Goldstone, this isn't something I would bring to my father till I actually knew what it was. He was very busy, and he's not the kind of guy you bring something potentially to. You vet it out and you see what's there and then you would bring him real information. So this to me was, you know, an email from a flamboyant music promoter. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 28 I was willing to listen to him. We were acquaintances. I knew his boss, was happy to listen to him. But that's about the extent of my knowledge at this time. MR. SCHIFF: So you wouldn't bring this to your father, but you would bring it to the campaign manager and to your brother-in-law? MR. TRUMP: Yes. They were very involved in the campaign. They understood this stuff more than I did. Certainly, Paul was more experienced with it, so I wanted them to listen in. MR. SCHIFF: Did anyone have a more influential role in the campaign than the campaign manager and your brother-in-law, Mr. Kushner? MR. TRUMP: My father. MR. SCHIFF: But apart from them, those would have been two of the most senior members of the campaign? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SCHIFF: And you thought it was worth their time to meet with Mr. Goldstone based on what he represented? MR. TRUMP: I thought they should listen in. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Goldstone suggested in his email that, because of the sensitivity of the information, rather than sending it to Rhona, perhaps it'd be better for you to speak to Emin. Did you agree to speak to Emin? MR. TRUMP: I don't know that -- let me see. I believe we went back and forth about me trying to speak to Emin. MR. SCHIFF: And did you speak with him? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. I show three phone calls back and forth between him and I, both -- all of which were very short duration. So perhaps we were playing phone tag. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 29 MR. SCHIFF: Well, let's take a look at the phone records. If you could provide those to the witness. If you could look at the AT&T bill and the phone call that occurred on Monday, June 6, at 4:04 p.m. There's an incoming call from a number that has a -- that begins with 798. MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. SCHIFF: Do you recognize that phone number? MR. TRUMP: I don't recognize it, but it's my understanding that's Emin Agalarov's cell phone. MR. SCHIFF: And how is that your understanding? MR. TRUMP: Just in preparation for this. MR. SCHIFF: In preparation for this you looked at Emin's phone number and this number and found it to be the same number? MR. TRUMP: We looked at the phone bill and went back to see if there was any relation. I didn't have Emin's cell phone number in my contacts, but we went through it and determined that was the case. MR. SCHIFF: So you would have received an incoming call then at 4:04 from Emin -MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. SCHIFF: -- for approximately 2 minutes. But you don't recall what you discussed? MR. TRUMP: I don't even know that -- you know, my understanding is that 2 minutes could be 61 seconds. I don't know if that's him leaving me a voicemail and I missed it or not. So I don't recall that, no. MR. SCHIFF: Immediately after that is a blocked call. Who is that call to UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 30 or from? MR. TRUMP: I have no idea. MR. SCHIFF: Would that be a call that you received? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: Does your father have a blocked number? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: You don't know if your father has a blocked number? MR. TRUMP: I'm not sure I get calls from him. Usually oftentimes through his assistant. Maybe his cell phone is. I don't recall. I get calls from the White House now, so that number is blocked, yes. But at the time, I don't remember. MR. SCHIFF: Well, yeah, I'm not asking about now that he's the President of the United States. But last year, you don't know whether when you'd receive a call from your father it showed up on your phone as a blocked number? MR. TRUMP: I don't. But, again, I didn't communicate with him all that much, frankly, on the campaign trail. MR. SCHIFF: Did you have a conversation with your father at 4:27 p.m. on June 6 that's indicated in these phone records? MR. TRUMP: Not that I'm aware of, no. MR. SCHIFF: Did you have a conversation with your father after speaking with Emin on that date? MR. TRUMP: No, not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: And the second call, which is labeled Russia, that looks like the same number from Emin. Do you recall that call? MR. TRUMP: I don't. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 31 MR. SCHIFF: So after Mr. Goldstone emails you about the sensitivity of the information and suggests that you speak directly with Emin, there are calls from Emin, but you can't recall whether you actually spoke with him? MR. TRUMP: So we may have played phone tag, I'm saying, but it appears that we tried to make contact. I just don't recall if we did or not. MR. SCHIFF: Did you speak with him separate and apart from the calls that are listed on this register? In other words, did you have a call on a different line that may not show up on this phone record? MR. TRUMP: I would find that hard to believe, but I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: Does that mean that the entirety of the information that you had prior to the meeting about the substance of the damaging information they would offer was contained in the initial emails? MR. TRUMP: Again, I don't recall speaking to Emin, so possibly, but I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: After these phone records indicate they were calls, Mr. Goldstone emailed that Emin asked him to schedule a meeting that he believed you were aware of, with you and the Russian Government attorney who was flying over from Moscow for this Thursday. Does that indicate to you that you indeed did have a conversation with Emin? MR. TRUMP: It doesn't. It perhaps indicates that maybe we exchanged voicemails. I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: So that Emin may have left you a voicemail about the nature of the meeting? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. It doesn't -- he may have believed we spoke. He may have realized that we tried to connect. I just don't remember. This UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 32 wasn't really a significant thing to me at the time. MR. SCHIFF: Well, prior to receiving this email about the Russian Government attorney flying over from Moscow, did you know that there was a Russian Government attorney flying over? MR. TRUMP: Prior to the email, no. MR. SCHIFF: You mentioned that the attorney was going to be here anyway. How did you know that? MR. TRUMP: I think it says -- it either says something in here, or I'd heard it after the fact, that she was going to be coming in. Yeah. Would it be possible to move tomorrow meeting to 4 o'clock. The Russian attorney is in court until 3, I was just informed. So she was there on other business. MR. SCHIFF: And did you ask about the Russian Government attorney? MR. FUTERFAS: At what point in time, for clarification, please? MR. SCHIFF: Well, the email from Emin makes reference to -- I'm sorry. The email from Mr. Goldstone makes reference to a meeting that you are aware of with you and the Russian Government attorney flying over from Moscow for this Thursday. Did you ask any questions about who this Russian Government attorney is or why the Russian Government was sending an attorney? MR. TRUMP: Well, it doesn't say that I'm aware of it. It says that he believes I'm aware of. But -MR. SCHIFF: And so let's assume then that you're not aware of this. Did you ask him why is the Russian Government sending an attorney to provide this information? MR. TRUMP: Well, in his email, he says the Russian Government attorney UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 33 who is flying over from Moscow this Thursday. This is before we ever set up the meeting. So he doesn't even know if I'd be in town at that stage. So I presume at that point that she's coming over for other business as well. MR. SCHIFF: Now, you made reference to the earlier email and his discussing a crown prosecutor and raised a question about whether that really was a crown prosecutor because that office might not exist. At the time, though, you didn't know whether there was a Russian crown prosecutor or not, did you? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: So a subsequent email makes reference to a Russian Government attorney. That would be consistent with the Russian crown prosecutor. Would it not? MR. TRUMP: Well, I would think a Russian Government attorney is a different level than a crown prosecutor, but I don't know that I know either way. MR. SCHIFF: Well, did you -MR. FUTERFAS: May I have a moment -- excuse me -- before the next question. MR. SCHIFF: Yeah. [Discussion off the record.] MR. FUTERFAS: Thank you. MR. SCHIFF: When Mr. Goldstone represented that a Russian Government attorney was coming, did you have any reason to question whether, in fact, this attorney was affiliated with the Russian Government? MR. TRUMP: Other than, again, knowing Mr. Goldstone, no. MR. SCHIFF: You told Mr. Goldstone in a subsequent email that the meeting would likely be with Paul Manafort, campaign boss, my brother-in-law, UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 34 and me. When did you first tell Mr. Manafort about the meeting? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall, but I believe we sent -- I forwarded the email. MR. SCHIFF: And did Mr. Manafort indicate to you that he would be coming? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Manafort ask you anything about the details of the meeting? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall having a conversation with Mr. Manafort about it. MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall anyone asking you, in preparation for the meeting, what was this information they were offering or who this attorney was or what you could tell them about it? MR. TRUMP: No, I don't recall that. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever represent to Mr. Manafort or Mr. Kushner or anyone else anything that Emin had communicated to you about the meeting? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. SCHIFF: So you don't recall having any kind of communication or conversation with Emin Agalarov prior to your attending the meeting? MR. TRUMP: Correct, I don't recall speaking to him. MR. SCHIFF: Why did you ask Mr. Manafort to come? MR. TRUMP: He was the head of the campaign. He knew more about this stuff than I did. So I asked him to sit in on it, as I would with a lot of meetings throughout the course, if they were available. MR. SCHIFF: He knew more about what stuff? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 35 MR. TRUMP: Campaign procedures and what we could or couldn't do. So I would have brought him in on any meeting. MR. SCHIFF: Was there a question in your mind about whether you could or could not accept help from the Russian Government? MR. TRUMP: I don't know that I thought about it. MR. SCHIFF: Did it have to rise to a certain level of seriousness for you to ask the campaign manager to attend a meeting on the eve of a disputed convention? MR. TRUMP: Probably not. I think if they were in town, we would have had meetings about a lot of little things that pop up along the way in a campaign. So I think it would be very commonplace to say, "Hey, if you're around, come on in." MR. SCHIFF: Well, if you thought Mr. Goldstone was so frivolous and would overstate matters, why would you invite the campaign manager to come? MR. TRUMP: Because I didn't know what Mr. Goldstone had. I was willing to listen to it, and I thought they should maybe be involved. MR. SCHIFF: Why didn't you insist on finding out from Emin or someone else just what he was offering before inviting the campaign manager? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. Presumably because I was busy with everything else, and, you know, I only responded to their outreach to me. MR. SCHIFF: Is it possible that you did have a conversation with Emin about the specifics of what was being offered? MR. TRUMP: It is possible that we spoke. I imagine, given the length of the phone calls, it would've been very hard to get much done in, you know, a 2-minute call, 3-minute call, and a 2-minute call that appears to be phone tag. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 36 But anything is possible. Five minutes, sir. MR. SCHIFF: And what kind of meetings would you invite Jared Kushner to? MR. TRUMP: Same. We had a very different kind of campaign. We're all -- we were an underdog. We were small and understaffed. We would jump in wherever. You know, whatever hole needed to be plugged, people would jump in along the way. MR. SCHIFF: Why did you think it was important to have Jared Kushner at this meeting? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: It appears that you forwarded the email chain to both Kushner and Manafort along with a message that: The meeting got moved to 4 o'clock at my offices. Had you forwarded the email about the meeting to them before this? MR. TRUMP: I imagine that would have come up in discovery, so perhaps not. MR. SCHIFF: So the first time you can recall informing Kushner and Manafort that a foreign government might be offering help to the campaign would have been on the day of the meeting? MR. FUTERFAS: I object to the form of the question. MR. TRUMP: I don't know. I don't remember. MR. SCHIFF: But you don't recall having any communication with Kushner or Manafort, apart from this email, prior to the meeting? MR. TRUMP: No, I don't recall speaking to them about it. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 37 MR. SCHIFF: Did either, to your recollection, Mr. Kushner or Mr. Manafort ask you any questions about this after receiving your email? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. SCHIFF: Did you have any kind of a pre-meeting discussion with Mr. Manafort or Kushner about what you hoped to accomplish in the meeting or what people were coming to tell you? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. SCHIFF: So even before you walked into the room, you didn't discuss with them who you'd be meeting with or why? MR. TRUMP: I didn't know who I'd be meeting with. MR. SCHIFF: You knew you'd be meeting with a Russian Government attorney, right? MR. TRUMP: That's about the extent of it, correct. MR. SCHIFF: And you knew they'd be offering derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, right? MR. TRUMP: I knew what Rob wrote, but, again, I didn't know what to expect. MR. SCHIFF: But you didn't even communicate, this is what I was informed, but I don't know what to expect to anyone else? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall communicating with them. MR. SCHIFF: Did you have any further communication with Rob Goldstone prior to the meeting, other than these email exchanges? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: So you didn't have any phone conversations with Rob Goldstone about what to expect in the meeting? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE MR. TRUMP: No, not that I remember. MR. SCHIFF: Did you have any conversation with any of the other participants in the meeting prior to it taking place, that is, not Manafort, not Kushner, but any of the other representatives who showed up in the room that day? MR. TRUMP: I had no idea who was showing up in that meeting, so -MR. SCHIFF: So no prior conversation with Veselnitskaya? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. SCHIFF: And no conversation with the Russian interpreters or the Russian representative of the Agalarovs? MR. TRUMP: I had had prior conversations with who I knew as Ike, Ike Kaveladze, although he was introduced as Irakly. And I didn't realize that perhaps that Ike and Irakly may be like Richard and Dick. So I didn't know that I had had prior communications with him by email when we were looking at the Russian real estate deal, but I had -- I didn't know that he was someone I had spoken to before. MR. SCHIFF: Did you know he was coming to the meeting? MR. TRUMP: I did not. MR. SCHIFF: And did you speak with him prior to the meeting about the meeting itself? MR. TRUMP: No. I probably hadn't communicated with him since the deal sort of went by the wayside in, you know, again, late 2014-ish. One minute, sir. MR. SCHIFF: Did you tell your father, inform your father in any manner about the planned meeting before it took place? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 38 UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 39 MR. TRUMP: No, not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Goldstone emailed you on June 7 that he would send the names of two people meeting with you for security that day. Did he send you those names? MR. TRUMP: No, he did not. MR. SCHIFF: How were these people able to get through security? MR. TRUMP: I presume Mr. Goldstone called up from security, said it was Mr. Goldstone and his group, and security let him up. MR. SCHIFF: Do you know whether he sent the names to anyone else? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe he did. MR. SCHIFF: Did he have any communication with Rhona about the meeting after your initial email exchange? MR. TRUMP: Not to my recollection, no. MR. SCHIFF: What would the procedure be for pre-clearing individuals to come in into the building for meetings? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: I think since I only have a minute left I'll pause here and yield back to the majority. MR. CONAWAY: Mr. Rooney. MR. ROONEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Trump, for participating in our interview today with regard to Russian interference in the 2016 election. What I want to do is ask some followup question to Mr. Schiff's line of questioning and then I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Gowdy. With regard to this investigation, our job as an Intelligence Committee is to UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 40 recommend to the Intelligence Community how they can do a better job so hopefully we're not influenced or the integrity of our election process could be called into question in future elections with regard to whatever Russia's intent is or any other country that wishes to do harm to our country and our process. So having said that and being here, sitting here for the last, well, since March, and conducting dozens and dozens of interviews and asking basically every interviewee the same questions with regard to Russian collusion, conspiracy, coordination with the Trump campaign and its efforts to help the President, the then-candidate Donald Trump, defeat Hillary Clinton, we are, I think, getting to the point where we have interviewed a lot of the main players with regard to who would know what, when, and how. And until this email chain, there really has not been any witness that I can recall -- and maybe -- I'm sure there's people in the minority who may disagree with me -- but I don't think so, because we've all heard the same evidence with regard to people in the Obama administration or on the Trump campaign with regard to if they were aware of coordination, collusion, or conspiracy of the Trump campaign to coordinate with Russia. And in this email chain, we see some things here that raise some flags. But before I get into that, I would like to get a little bit better idea of this Goldstone. Is it Goldstone or Goldstein? MR. TRUMP: I believe it's Goldstone. MR. ROONEY: Goldstone guy. And you use the term "understanding Rob Goldstone." Well, that's what I'd like to try to do so is little bit here, if I could. Because you said something that was very curious to me, is that you didn't want to present your father with anything that this guy had told you until, I think UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 41 you said, you verified it or whatever. Who is this guy? What is your impression of him as far as his legitimacy, as far as what -- I guess my question is this. We're all politicians and we all have campaigns and we all have people that offer to help. And there's levels of seriousness, I guess, we would take certain people but also trying to be -- not trying to be mean or disregard certain people for whatever reasons. I'm just trying to get an idea of what your impression was of Mr. Goldstone while this was all going on. MR. TRUMP: Listen, he's a music promoter. He was in, I guess, a past life Michael Jackson's manager. He was a tabloid journalist. So, you know, he's sort of a sensational character PR person type of guy. I know him to, you know, manage an Azerbaijan pop singer. And he was always very cordial with us in whatever little dealings we had had. And, you know, again, I didn't have a very strong relationship with him, but I knew him to be a little bit of a character and a kind of flamboyant guy. MR. ROONEY: One would wonder why you would give somebody like that the time of day when it comes to, you know, trying to help your father get elected President. MR. TRUMP: You know, where I come from, not the world of politics but the world of business, everything is about relationships. We had done business with the Agalarovs, whether -- you know, for Miss Universe. We had looked at potential real estate deals. If he's, you know, representing them somewhat, I'm going to give him a little bit of the time of day because, who knows, down the line, maybe they show up with a real estate deal that's in a better location that we would want to do. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 42 So, you know, it is about maintaining relationships. If I think -- if, you know, Joe Smith, who I'd never heard of and didn't know anyone that we had done business with in the past, would have reached out to us, you know, I would have sent it to campaign counsel, whatever it may have been, or just flat out ignored it. You've probably experienced on the campaign trail yourself, everyone has the sure-fire way that you can win. MR. ROONEY: Uh-huh. MR. TRUMP: This is the only way to do it. Meanwhile, it's not a top 1,000 issue, you know, for your average constituency. So I'd experienced that along. But, you know, again, my background, it's a lot of business is relationship. MR. ROONEY: Since we speculate a lot on this committee and not like in court, but just trying to get to the bottom -- and I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying, you know, a lot of what we're trying to get to is just information just so we can write our report. What do you think your dad would have said if you told him that you had information coming from Rob Goldstone with regard to -- that was with -- regarding the campaign? MR. TRUMP: Again, I don't want to speculate as to what he would have said. I know, you know, his general mantra during, you know, anytime throughout the election, I mean, is we've just got to focus on speaking to the people, getting out there. You could see that, you know, both in the primaries as well as during the general. You know, if you look at the time that we spent, you know, on possible transition before the election, he didn't want to waste his time with transition. We'll deal with that on November 9 if we win, and we'll make up for lost time then. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 43 He wanted to get out there and be speaking to people. That's why I spent very little time actually with my father, because I figured out very early on in the campaign that if you're in the same room as him, he's going to create a vacuum, and I should be wherever he isn't, which is why I didn't communicate much with him. I did my own thing and, you know, didn't feel the need to bring anything like this to him, certainly not from Rob Goldstone. MR. ROONEY: Okay. I have a couple questions with regard to the email that Mr. Schiff was discussing with you. MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. ROONEY: So the first email is from Mr. Goldstone to you. MR. TRUMP: Uh-huh. MR. ROONEY: And it talks about, as Mr. Schiff referred to, the crown prosecutor of Russia. You had said that you weren't sure if there was such a title. Do you know if there is? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe there is. I believe it's actually an English title. MR. SCHIFF: The question that I had for past witnesses who also dealt with this sentence, the crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father, Aras. Aras is the senior Agalarov, correct? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. ROONEY: So what I don't understand, and maybe you can help us with, if you can, is the crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras. Does Aras have a son or daughter who is a lawyer? Do you know? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. I only know Emin to be his son, who's the -MR. ROONEY: Do you think the crown prosecutor of Russia could have UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 44 been Emin? I'm only asking this because he said with his father. MR. TRUMP: I have no idea. I never actually thought about it that way, but I understand exactly what you're saying now that I read it carefully. MR. ROONEY: Well, I mean, this Goldstone guy, could he have been -- he is the promoter of Emin, correct? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. ROONEY: Could he have been joking about Emin being a crown prosecutor of Russia in some jovial way for some reason? MR. TRUMP: Perhaps. MR. ROONEY: I'm just trying to understand why he would say his father. Anyway -MR. FUTERFAS: Could I have 1 minute. Thank you. [Discussion off the record.] MR. FUTERFAS: Thank you. MR. ROONEY: Okay. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 45 [11:00 a.m.] MR. ROONEY: And it says here at the end of this email: "Helped along the Russia and its government support for Mr. Trump, helped along by Aras or Emin." Was it your understanding at all during this campaign or specifically through this email that the Agalarovs were acting on behalf of Putin and the Russian government? Was that your understanding? MR. TRUMP: No, it was not. MR. ROONEY: So when you read that, what was your impression? MR. TRUMP: Again, in reading this whole chain, it was -- you know, and understanding where it came from, I wasn't exactly sure what to make of it. MR. ROONEY: On the later email with regard to the Russian Government attorney, this, again, is by Mr. Goldstone, and he says, "The meeting between you, the Russian Government attorney," when you read that, was it your impression that the person coming was acting on behalf of the Russian Government, or a Russian attorney who worked for the government, or what was your impression of that? MR. TRUMP: Again, I didn't know exactly what to make of it. I only knew what Rob had said and probably discounted some of that accordingly. MR. ROONEY: So the meeting end up happening with Mr. Manafort, Mr. Kushner, yourself, and then the representatives with the Russian attorney. Did you talk about Hillary Clinton and the so-called dirt at that meeting? MR. TRUMP: Not really. They started off on a -- talking about, you know, I guess some people who had done business in Russia and the U.S. who are big donors to Hillary Clinton, and perhaps the DNC, and how they were avoiding UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 46 taxes, maybe, in Russia and the U.S. It really didn't make all that much sense to me. Now, bear in mind, we were speaking through a translator. She didn't speak English, so I don't know what was or was not lost in translation along the way. You know, that slows things down considerably, and it was still a pretty short meeting, but it became pretty clear to me that there was really nothing there that was that useful. The second I sort of expressed that, it shifted quickly to Russian adoption and ultimately to, you know -- and Russian adoption -- wouldn't it be great to bring this program back, you're aware that this has been shut down, and you know, that was sort of the segue to something called the "Magnitsky Act," which I had never heard of. MR. ROONEY: Aside from this email chain from Mr. Goldstone, the music producer, was there any other times during this campaign where you actively, or were aware of collusion, coordination, conspiracy with Putin and the Russian Government to conspire to help the Trump campaign over Hillary Clinton, or did you participate in any of that activity? MR. TRUMP: No, not at all. MR. ROONEY: Mr. Gowdy. MR. GOWDY: Good morning, Mr. Trump. I'm going to skip over the Crown prosecutor of Russia part. It seems like an archaic term. I'm not even sure the prosecutors in this room know whether or not there is such a thing. So I want to skip to the second sentence, if you will, or the second clause, "To provide the Trump campaign with some official documents." What did you think when you saw "official documents"? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 47 MR. TRUMP: Again, I didn't know what to make of any of that because of where it's coming from, who's delivering me the message. I didn't know if this was perhaps public documents available in Russia at the time, they just never made it here or were never picked up here, so, you know, I didn't know what to make of any of this, but I was willing to sit down and listen. MR. GOWDY: All right. So after they use that phrase, "official documents," and then they use the word, "information," I'm assuming your answer would be the same if I ask you what you thought by the use of the word "information"? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. GOWDY: "That would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia." Now, that part lifted out to me, because I knew she was a Secretary of State, and I know that she was a United States Senator, and I know that she was a First Lady. What other dealings with Russia could there have been other than in her official capacity? MR. TRUMP: I don't know, and perhaps that's what struck out to me as well. And obviously, we've all read about some of the potential scandals. I don't know, you know, enough about them, but we've been reading about this for quite some time, so I didn't know if this was public information about those very things that we've been reading about for maybe years. I don't know the exact date for all of these things, but -- so, again, I wasn't sure what to make of it, but I was happy to listen. MR. GOWDY: I guess that's what kind of struck me when i read this the first time. You have a Secretary of State and then you have the phrase, "official documents and information," and I got to confess, I'm not an expert on opposition UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 48 research. The good news for the committee is we've had an opportunity to interview some people who are experts in opposition research. And one thing I learned is that they actually travel to various sites and conduct research on public records and public information, and every now and again, they use sources and subsources that are anonymous. That's something the committee has learned over the course of the past 10 months. So I see official documents, and I see reference to a presidential candidate who's held arguably three, but for sure, two, public positions, and I'm just wondering if that could have been information that would have been available otherwise? MR. TRUMP: I imagine that's at least one component of things that were going through my mind because I didn't know what to expect. I was happy to listen. It could have very well been public information over there. MR. GOWDY: Speaking of listening, I don't know whether this is true or not, but had you heard that -- well, first of all, have you heard of someone named Glenn Simpson? MR. TRUMP: I have, since in preparation for this, but I had not at the time, no. MR. GOWDY: Had you also heard that Glenn Simpson was part of a group called "Fusion GPS"? MR. TRUMP: I've heard that since in preparation for this, yes. MR. GOWDY: Had you heard that Fusion GPS was commissioned, retained to do opposition research on your father? MR. TRUMP: I have since heard that, yes. MR. GOWDY: Have you heard that the Russian lawyer that my friend from UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 49 California makes reference to, I think he may have even called it a Russian Government lawyer, although I don't want to put words in his mouth -- I call her Natalia, because I can't pronounce her last name -- had you heard that she met with Glenn Simpson before the meeting that you had? MR. TRUMP: I have since heard that, yes, and I believe I've seen pictures of her with many of your colleagues here in Washington, D.C. MR. GOWDY: Had you heard that she met with Glenn Simpson after your meeting at Trump Tower? MR. TRUMP: I've heard that as well. MR. GOWDY: So I guess what I'm trying to sort out is the difference is you memorialized your meeting in an email, whereas, Glenn Simpson and this Russian Government lawyer didn't memorialize their two meetings in emails? MR. TRUMP: I think that was the point I made earlier. If I believed that this was something that was bad, I would not have probably responded in email. MR. GOWDY: These official documents, had they existed, first of all, and had they been disseminated through the media, do you think you'd be here? MR. TRUMP: Based on what I've seen, probably not. MR. GOWDY: Had they existed and had they been disseminated, hypothetically, through an opposition research firm commissioned by the DNC and laundered through another law firm, do you think you would be here? MR. TRUMP: I highly doubt it. MR. GOWDY: All right. Well, let's move on to the next part of it. "Part of Russia and its government support for Mr. Trump." Were you aware that the Russian Government supported your father? MR. TRUMP: I was not. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 50 MR. GOWDY: Did they support him in the primary? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so, unless they can vote in Wisconsin. MR. GOWDY: Did you see any manifestation of the support for your father by the Russian Government? MR. TRUMP: I did not. MR. GOWDY: Your brother-in-law attended the meeting, and without going directly into what he said -- well, let me just ask you: Did he stay for the whole time? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. I think he took a phone call partway through. MR. GOWDY: And left? MR. TRUMP: Yes, I believe so. MR. GOWDY: All right. There are three pivot points, the way I look at it. My colleagues on the other side may look at it differently, and perhaps I'm missing something, but there are three pivot points that I want to ask you about specifically. Number 1 is the hack of the DNC server. MR. TRUMP: Yes, sir. MR. GOWDY: Well, before I get to that, let me ask you this: Do you believe your taking of this meeting was unlawful? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. GOWDY: Do you believe that had they actually had official documents -- let me make sure I got the phrase right -- that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia -- and again, I keep coming back to the fact that she was a Secretary of the State and she was a United States senator, so whatever dealings she had with Russia would have necessarily been in her official UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 51 capacity, right? MR. TRUMP: I would think so. MR. GOWDY: And I guess my belief is modified by the use of the word "official" before the word "documents." MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. GOWDY: So we'll -- I digress. You don't think it was unlawful that you took the meeting? MR. TRUMP: No, I don't think it's unlawful to listen. MR. GOWDY: All right. Do you believe it would have been unlawful had they actually had official documents related to her dealings with Russia and given them to you? MR. TRUMP: I have no idea. I'm not a lawyer. MR. GOWDY: Would it have been -- do you consider it to be improper that you took the meeting? MR. TRUMP: Not really, no. MR. GOWDY: I guess what I'm struggling with is how it could be either unlawful or improper for you to take the meeting with this Russian lawyer, but Glenn Simpson to have taken a meeting before and after your meeting, and God only knows what was discussed, and the same analysis not be applied. MR. TRUMP: I've seen that in the media myself, and I've struggled with the very same thing. MR. GOWDY: All right. There are three pivot points. There's the hack of the DNC server. When did you learn that the DNC server had been hacked? MR. TRUMP: Well, I don't know when you guys found out about it, but I probably found out about it with the rest of the world whenever it broke as maybe UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 52 one of the bigger stories of 2016. MR. GOWDY: When did you learn that John Podesta's email had been accessed or hacked? MR. TRUMP: The same as everyone else in the country, barring perhaps people such as yourselves with intelligence clearances. MR. GOWDY: When I use the words "collude," "conspire," and "coordinate," do they have appreciably different meanings to you? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. GOWDY: All right. So then I'm going to separate them out. Do you have any evidence, regardless of the source, and frankly, regardless of whether or not you even find the evidence to be credible, any evidence at all, regardless of the source, of collusion between Donald Trump and the Russian Government to access John Podesta's email? MR. TRUMP: None whatsoever. MR. GOWDY: Do you have any evidence of coordination between Donald Trump to access John Podesta's email? MR. TRUMP: None whatsoever. MR. GOWDY: Do you have any evidence of a conspiracy between Donald Trump and the Russian Government to access John Podesta's email? MR. TRUMP: No, I don't. MR. GOWDY: All right. Same three words, "conspire," "collude," "coordinate," the question now is the DNC server. MR. TRUMP: Yes, sir. MR. GOWDY: Any evidence? MR. TRUMP: None. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 53 MR. GOWDY: Lay "Then Candidate Trump" aside, and we'll just insert "Trump campaign," official members of the Trump campaign, any evidence, regardless of the source, and frankly, regardless of whether or not you even find it to be credible or not? MR. TRUMP: None whatsoever. MR. GOWDY: Collusion, coordination, conspiracy between the campaign and the Russian Government to access either Podesta's emails or the DNC server? MR. TRUMP: None. MR. GOWDY: All right. The other pivot point to me is the dissemination of that information. And there is contact between you and WikiLeaks? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. GOWDY: I'm sure my colleagues are going to ask you about it in the next round, so I'm going to ask you about it now. Was there any coordination, alignment, whatever synonym you want to employ, between the Trump campaign and WikiLeaks to disseminate information acquired from the Podesta email or the DNC server? MR. TRUMP: No, not that I'm aware of. MR. GOWDY: Did you have any advance knowledge that the information would be disseminated? MR. TRUMP: No, I did not. Anything that I received from them was actually put out publicly before they ever direct-messaged me to, perhaps, highlight it, but I imagine I saw anything that they put out there, because I also followed them, along with approximately 5.3 million other people. MR. GOWDY: All right. Apparently there's a division of authority, UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 54 although I don't think there's that much of division of authority among Members of Congress. Unfortunately, I have colleagues on my side of the aisle who became relativists in 2016, and were complimentary of WikiLeaks. I've never been complimentary of WikiLeaks. I think they're an enemy of the United States, but it is going to lead my colleagues and will lead me to ask why contact them at all and why have any contact with them? MR. TRUMP: At the time, I looked at them as essentially a media outlet. The information that they were putting out was interesting to us, but in no way, shape, or form do I not believe that if they had compromising information on us, both then, and my father's current presidency, that they wouldn't put them out. I look at them as a opportunistic organization. MR. GOWDY: If my notes are right, they attempted to contact you on a couple of different occasions, privately or directly, and you did not respond. MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. GOWDY: Is that your -- why would you not respond? MR. TRUMP: I guess it became apparent to me they were looking for stuff for me to give them that I wasn't going to give them, and there was no reason to respond to them. MR. GOWDY: In particular, there's an October 12th, 2016, twitter direct message between yourself and WikiLeaks, and my notes have "Trump, Jr. does not respond." MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. GOWDY: At least, according to my notes, there are a half dozen instances where you did not respond. MR. TRUMP: Correct. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 55 MR. GOWDY: So we've addressed the server; we've addressed the Podesta email. I want to address the dissemination of any of this information by ill-gotten gains, and I'm happy to have a conversation about whether or not it's proper, moral to benefit from improper gains. Again, I'm not a fan of relativism, so I think we ought to apply the same standard across the board, but be that as it may, was there any conspiracy, collusion, coordination between candidate Donald Trump and WikiLeaks to disseminate the information acquired ill-gottenly? MR. TRUMP: None that I'm aware of, no. MR. GOWDY: How about with members of the campaign not named "Donald Trump"? MR. TRUMP: Not that I'm aware of, no. MR. GOWDY: Do you know Carter Page? MR. TRUMP: I've heard about him since, but I did not know him on the campaign. MR. GOWDY: George Papadopoulos? MR. TRUMP: I had to Google search "George Papadopoulos" when I heard about the news about him 3 weeks ago. That doesn't mean, for the record, that I hadn't met them on a campaign floor somewhere, but I had no idea who either of those were. MR. GOWDY: All right. So if I understand your testimony correctly, there is no evidence, regardless of the source and regardless of whether or not you believe it, of conspiracy, collusion, coordination between your father, the official campaign, or even unofficial hangers-on, to hack Podesta's email, the DNC server, or disseminate the material acquired therefrom? MR. TRUMP: To the best of my knowledge, that is 100 percent accurate. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 56 MR. GOWDY: All right. Well, you know how lawyers are. There's a reason people don't like them, and they are going to focus on that very last phrase, which is "to the best of your knowledge," because they're going to say, Well, you could have known it at some point but now don't recall it. MR. TRUMP: No, I don't recall ever hearing that. I don't recall seeing anything of the sort. I just don't believe it happened, and I believe that is severe enough that if I had at one point in time heard it, I would remember it. MR. GOWDY: All right. Back to the meeting that you had. I don't know how to pronounce the name of the Act that's in the document, Magnitsky. MR. TRUMP: Magnitsky, I believe. MR. GOWDY: Right. How much of the time was spent discussing that, and how much of the time was spent discussing dirt on Secretary Clinton? MR. TRUMP: Again, the majority was really split up between -- really started off as Russian adoption, which was sort of the, you know, what I perceive to be sort of the feel-good segue to probably lobbying for something as it related to that Act. So, you know, I'd say we spent less than, you know, 5 minutes of the 20 minutes, again, speaking through a translator about the quote/unquote "dirt," and the rest was a quick segue, bait-and-switch, whatever you want to call it, to speak about Russian adoption and Magnitsky Act. MR. GOWDY: So to be clear, regardless of the fact that we just went through that litany of questions about actual collusion, coordination, and conspiracy, there will be some who hold up this meeting and this email string as evidence of a willingness to do so. MR. TRUMP: Understood. MR. GOWDY: And your response to that would be what? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 57 MR. TRUMP: I didn't think it was a problem to listen. I think, as an American, it would be relative -- relevant for us to hear about, you know, the fitness and wellbeing of a potential candidate for the presidency of the United States. MR. GOWDY: Does it surprise you to know that the other side was doing it to your father? MR. TRUMP: Not at all. MR. GOWDY: Were you surprised to learn that the very lawyer that you met with had met with the folks that were doing it on the other side to your father? MR. TRUMP: Not at all. At this point, nothing surprises me. MR. GOWDY: I don't think I have any more questions. MR. CONAWAY: Mr. King. MR. KING: Mr. Trump, thank you for being here today. This is really just based on the press reports. If this was some sort of secret meeting and some clandestine activity by the Russians, my understanding in recent press reports is that Goldstone actually did a selfie of himself checking into the hotel before the meeting, and then he posted something after. Is that accurate? MR. TRUMP: My understanding is that Rob Goldstone took a selfie in the lobby of Trump Tower on his way up, posted it on his, I believe it was a public Facebook page, and tagged himself, the location, et cetera, et cetera, at the time. MR. KING: Okay. So not really a very secret clandestine type espionage -MR. TRUMP: I would not call that a movement that James Bond would undertake, no. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 58 MR. KING: Okay. Thank you very much. MR. CONAWAY: Do you need a break? MR. TRUMP: We can -MR. FUTERFAS: Can we take 5 minutes? MR. CONAWAY: Let's reconvene at 11:30. [Recess.] MR. CONAWAY: Let's reconvene. We will now go to 15-minute swaps back and forth. So Mr. Schiff. MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to go back through the meeting at Trump Tower in some detail, but before I do, I just want to ask some follow-up questions based on your testimony in response to my colleagues. I think you said that at the beginning of the meeting, Ms. Veselnitskaya started off talking about Clinton getting money from different sources. She started out talking about the supposed dirt on Hillary Clinton; is that correct? MR. TRUMP: I believe, you know, per my original statement, she started off talking about, I guess, some donors of both Hillary Clinton and the Clinton, either Foundation or the DNC, that were doing business in Russia and, I guess, avoiding paying taxes both there and in the United States, but it was sort of a very convoluted thing. And again, I don't know if that's because it was just convoluted, or if it was because it was through a translator, but it didn't appear to be anything that really was of any use to us. MR. SCHIFF: But she started off the meeting discussing this. This was the first topic that she raised. MR. TRUMP: That's my recollection, yes. MR. SCHIFF: Which would indicate that she understood the UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 59 purpose -- ostensible purpose of the meeting as you did, which was to provide derogatory information about Clinton. MR. TRUMP: To my understanding, yes. MR. SCHIFF: Now, you said that there was nothing there that was all that useful; is that right? MR. TRUMP: You know, again, I don't know that it was anything that was all that relevant, correct. It didn't make all that such sense to me. MR. SCHIFF: Well, you said, when you responded to my colleague's questions, that it wasn't that useful. If you had known this was the derogatory information that she had on Secretary Clinton, would you have taken the meeting to begin with? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: Well, you said it was essentially a bait-and-switch and a waste of time, did you not? MR. TRUMP: I did. MR. SCHIFF: Does that indicate that if you knew that in advance, you would have not taken the meeting? MR. TRUMP: If I would have known that, I perhaps would have heard them out, but I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: But it's fair to say that you were hoping for something more useful than what you got? MR. TRUMP: That's fair. MR. SCHIFF: And is it fair to say you wouldn't have invited the campaign chairman to the meeting if all you knew you were going to get was what they provided in terms of derogatory information? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 60 MR. TRUMP: In hindsight, that's probably accurate, but I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: And in hindsight, you wouldn't have invited Mr. Kushner if you weren't going to get anything more useful than that? MR. TRUMP: I may not have. I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: And it's also fair to say that you were hoping that the derogatory information you were going to get was going to be useful in your campaign? MR. TRUMP: I imagine so. MR. SCHIFF: And did you communicate that disappointment during the meeting by asking Ms. Veselnitskaya, Is this all you've got? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: Did you make it clear during the meeting that you were hoping for something different than what they presented you? MR. TRUMP: I don't remember. I may have. MR. SCHIFF: When Mr. Goldstone informed you by email that the Agalarovs had information to provide you, dirt on Hillary Clinton from the Russian Government, did you know what form that information was going to take? MR. TRUMP: I did not, no. MR. SCHIFF: Did you know whether the information -- the derogatory information might come from emails? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: Did you believe what they're referring to was information contained in emails? MR. TRUMP: I have no idea, no. MR. SCHIFF: Was the campaign very interested in obtaining what it UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 61 considered to be the 30,000 deleted Hillary Clinton emails? MR. TRUMP: As it pertains to WikiLeaks, I imagine the campaign would have wanted them out, but I don't know. I don't know that this was -- I don't think I even thought about this as being part of it. MR. SCHIFF: Did you believe that the dirt that the Russians might be offering you, as represented by Mr. Goldstone, might be in the form of stolen Hillary Clinton emails? MR. TRUMP: I did not have any reason to believe anything at that point. I had no knowledge of what it was going to be presented. MR. SCHIFF: Have you read the information that George Papadopoulos pled to? MR. TRUMP: I read that he had pled to lying to the FBI. MR. SCHIFF: Are you aware in the information that Mr. Papadopoulos represented that as early as April, this would have been weeks before your June meeting, that the campaign, via Mr. Papadopoulos, was informed by the Russians that they had Clinton stolen emails? MR. TRUMP: I was not aware of that at the time, no. I've read that since. MR. FUTERFAS: Just for clarification. Congressman Schiff, I think you were referring to something called "an information," and I don't know if Mr. Trump, Jr. is -- understands that you're referring to a particular type of charging instrument. I just want to -- to the extent you might want to make that clear. I'm not sure if he understands that. MR. SCHIFF: Well, let me ask this again then. As a part of Mr. Papadopoulos' plea, he acknowledged that the Russians, through intermediaries, made him aware, as a member of the campaign, as early as UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 62 April -- this would have been weeks before your June meeting -- that the Russian Government was in possession of stolen Hillary Clinton emails. Was that information communicated to you prior to your June meeting? MR. TRUMP: No, it was not. MR. SCHIFF: Did you believe that the Russian Government might have stolen Clinton emails? MR. TRUMP: I have no idea, but no. MR. SCHIFF: Were you aware of speculation at that point that the Russian Government was behind the hack of the DNC, and may be in possession of the stolen emails? MR. TRUMP: I'm aware of that at a time. I don't know if I was aware of this at that time yet. I was aware of those things, as I said earlier, whenever it became public to everyone else. MR. SCHIFF: Did it occur to you, when you were informed by Mr. Goldstone, that they had dirt on Hillary Clinton, that this might be in the form of stolen Clinton emails? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. SCHIFF: And to the best of your recollection, who was in attendance at the meeting in Trump Tower. MR. TRUMP: It would have been myself, Mr. Manafort, Mr. Kushner, Mr. Goldstone, the -- Ms. Veselnitskaya, I guess, her translator, and to my knowledge, I guess, Irakly Kaveladze. I had heard since then that there was one other person in attendance, but I don't remember. I don't remember that being the case, but again, I didn't think too much of the meeting at the time. MR. SCHIFF: Now, Rob Goldstone had indicated he probably would not UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 63 attend. When did you find out that, in fact, he would be in the meeting? MR. TRUMP: At the meeting. MR. SCHIFF: Did he tell you that "I decided to attend after all" or did you ask him to be in attendance? MR. TRUMP: I don't know either way. MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall Rinat Akhmetshin being present as well? MR. TRUMP: I've read that. I don't recall. Unless that's the translator, I don't recall that, but I've read that he was there. MR. SCHIFF: Had you ever met him before? MR. TRUMP: Not to my knowledge. MR. SCHIFF: And Mr. Kaveladze, I believe you said earlier you had met before? MR. TRUMP: I had not met before face to face. I had communicated, I believe, through emails, and maybe he was on a conference call or two when we were talking about the real estate deal with the Agalarovs in, I guess, 2014. MR. SCHIFF: Did you recognize at the time, when you were introduced to him, that he was the same person you had been in communication with before as a representative of Mr. Agalarov? MR. TRUMP: I did not. MR. SCHIFF: At what point did you realize that this is somebody you had communicated with before? MR. TRUMP: Whenever this became -- whenever this was brought up. I imagine it was earlier this summer. MR. SCHIFF: And the translator has been identified as Anatoli Samochornov. Had you never met him before? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 64 MR. TRUMP: Not to my recollection, no. MR. SCHIFF: So, in terms of the Russian delegation, for lack of a better description, you had not met any of them before, and the only one you had any prior correspondence with was Mr. Kaveladze? MR. TRUMP: Correct. Five minutes. MR. SCHIFF: Was the entire meeting through translation, or was only part of it through translation? MR. TRUMP: I believe most of it was through translation, because I only recall Ms. Veselnitskaya speaking. I don't remember anyone else chiming in. Now that was through interpreter, so her translator spoke, but I don't know that anyone -- I don't know that I recall anyone else speaking or chiming in. MR. SCHIFF: Now, the email said that the meeting would be in your offices. Where exactly was the meeting? MR. TRUMP: It was in the 25th floor conference room in our offices. MR. SCHIFF: And how far is that from your father's offices. MR. TRUMP: My father is on the 26th floor, so a floor. MR. SCHIFF: And was your father in his office at the time you had the meeting? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: Was your father in the office that day? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. Not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: So you don't recall seeing your father at all that entire day in the office? MR. TRUMP: Again, I don't recall much about that meeting because it didn't UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 65 seem that significant to me, but I don't know where he was. He may have been there. MR. FUTERFAS: They are meeting somewhere in the building. MR. TRUMP: Correct. He wasn't in the meeting, no. I know that for certain, but he may have been in the building or he may have been on the road. I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: Did you speak to your father the same day as the meeting? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. I may have. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever discuss with your father, let's say that date, the nature of the meeting? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall ever speaking to my father about the meeting. MR. SCHIFF: And who spoke during the meeting? Was it only Ms. Veselnitskaya from the Russian delegation -- only Ms. Veselnitskaya and her translator? MR. TRUMP: That's what I remember. She spoke through a translator, I believe, throughout the entirety. I don't remember anyone else, you know, speaking up, but they may have. MR. SCHIFF: So Mr. Goldstone, to your knowledge, didn't say anything? MR. TRUMP: The only thing Mr. Goldstone said was at the end of the meeting. He apologized to me for using up our time because it was apparent to me that he believed what I believed, which was that it was a bait-and-switch talk about something which we knew nothing about, which was, again, Russian adoption and the Magnitsky Act. MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Goldstone also feel that the information that was promised wasn't sufficiently useful? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 66 MR. TRUMP: I don't know what he felt. You'd have to ask him. MR. SCHIFF: But he did apologize because the meeting wasn't as it was represented? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. SCHIFF: And as near as you can recall, what did Ms. Veselnitskaya tell you about on the subject of Clinton and the derogatory information? MR. TRUMP: Again, it was a -- she was talking about some Clinton donors. Again, I don't know if those are campaign donors as well as DNC donors that were apparently doing business in Russia of some sort and had managed to figure out a way to perhaps unlawfully avoid paying taxes in either the U.S. or Russia, but again, through translation, it just -- not a lot of it made sense to me, and so I didn't really know what we were -- they were listening about. MR. SCHIFF: And did you ask her for more details about this information? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. I imagine I would have said, I don't understand, or can you please clarify, is there something here that, you know, means more than this, but I don't really remember. It became apparent to me pretty quickly that this was a nothing, and that's when she translated -- sort of transitioned over to speaking about Russian adoption. One minute. MR. SCHIFF: And did you try to steer her back to the discussion about what information they could offer on Clinton? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. Again, I may have briefly, but it became pretty apparent to me that that wasn't what this was about. We listened for a few minutes about the Magnitsky stuff and Russian adoption, made it clear that we were private citizens, this isn't something that we knew anything about, it wasn't a UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 67 campaign platform, and we moved on. MR. SCHIFF: And what would you have said to try to steer her back to the purpose of the meeting? MR. TRUMP: I may have asked another question or so, but again, I don't recall doing that, so I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ask her whether she had anything else on Secretary Clinton? MR. TRUMP: I may have. I have no recollection of it, though. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ask her where she got the information that she provided you? MR. TRUMP: She didn't really provide me any information. It was sort of, you know, speak theoretical stuff that didn't make much sense to me, so I don't know that did, no. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ask her who was providing this information to the campaign, who she was representing? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. SCHIFF: Did she provide you with any documents during the meeting? MR. TRUMP: Not that I remember, no. MR. SCHIFF: Did she present any documents to anyone else during the meeting? MR. TRUMP: Not that I saw. MR. CONAWAY: Time, sir. MR. GOWDY: Very quickly, Mr. Trump. Mr. Rooney may have gone through this. He usually does, but if he did not, I just want to make sure you understand the four kind of the pillars of our investigation: What did Russia do with UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 68 respect to the 2016 election cycle? Number 2, with whom, if anyone, did they do it? Number 3, what was the U.S. Government's response? And then number 4, the issue of maskings and unmaskings, and the dissemination of classified information. So under the heading of Russia's efforts to interfere with or otherwise influence the 2016 election cycle, let me ask you whether or not you know -- do you know whether Glenn Simpson, who worked for Fusion GPS, which was hired by a law firm that was paid by the DNC, do you know whether or not he met with Natalia Veselnitskaya? MR. TRUMP: I have read that. I do not have intimate knowledge of it beyond what I've read. MR. GOWDY: Do you know who else was at that meeting? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. GOWDY: Do you know what they discussed? MR. TRUMP: No, I don't MR. GOWDY: Do you know whether any documents were produced by the Russian Government lawyer to Glenn Simpson? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. GOWDY: Do you know whether they met after your meeting at Trump Tower? MR. TRUMP: I have read that, but I don't have any actual knowledge of it. MR. GOWDY: Do you know whether Ms. Natalia Veselnitskaya would have told Glenn Simpson, who was at Fusion GPS, which is an oppo research firm hired by a law firm that was hired by the DNC, do you know whether or not she would have told Glenn Simpson about then content of your meeting at Trump Tower? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 69 MR. TRUMP: I read that she did, but I don't have any knowledge of it. MR. GOWDY: Were you paid by any campaign to do oppo research? MR. TRUMP: No, I was not MR. GOWDY: Was that your job on the Trump campaign to do opposition research? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. GOWDY: Okay. That's all I have, Mr. Chairman. MR. CONAWAY: All right. Adam, 15 minutes. MR. SCHIFF: During the course of the meeting, did Mr. Manafort ask any questions? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. If I remember correctly, he was mostly just on his iPad. MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Kushner ask any questions? MR. TRUMP: I don't remember him asking any. MR. SCHIFF: Did either of them ask questions along the same lines that you did, whether there was more to the information they had to offer, or whether they could explain just what this derogatory information was supposed to mean? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall them asking anything, so I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Manafort, Mr. Kushner go into the meeting with you? MR. TRUMP: I believe I got there a few minutes before them, and, you know, casual niceties, but they were there shortly after. MR. SCHIFF: And did they both stay for the entire meeting? MR. TRUMP: I believe Mr. Manafort did. I believe Mr. Kushner took a phone call partway through. MR. SCHIFF: And how long did the meeting last? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 70 MR. TRUMP: Best guesstimate, probably 20 minutes. MR. SCHIFF: And at what point did Mr. Kushner take the call? MR. TRUMP: Halfway through. MR. SCHIFF: And did he leave the room to take the call? MR. TRUMP: I believe he did. MR. SCHIFF: And did he return? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe he did. MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss the meeting with Mr. Kushner afterwards? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: So you never discussed the meeting with Mr. Kushner? MR. TRUMP: I have no recollection of speaking about the meeting ever again, frankly, once we left. MR. SCHIFF: So you didn't speak to Mr. Kushner about the meeting before you went into it, and you didn't speak to him after the meeting? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. SCHIFF: And you didn't speak to Mr. Manafort before the meeting, and you didn't speak to Mr. Manafort after the meeting? MR. TRUMP: I have no recollection of speaking to either of them before or after the meeting. MR. SCHIFF: So neither of them said effectively what was that all about, or why did you set up that meeting or what was supposed to happen there? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: And what did Ms. Veselnitskaya say during the meeting about the Magnitsky Act? MR. TRUMP: It started off with Russian adoption, sort of the sentimental UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 71 nature: you're aware that the Russians had shut down. I guess it may have been a -- I wasn't aware of that much. I know I had read about them shutting down an adoption program for Americans of, you know, Russian children, and, you know, started off with that. Because of various sanctions, and you know, this was sort of the lead-in to the Magnitsky Act, and it was unfairly penal of Russia. Again, it was an Act I had never really heard of. I listened for a few minutes and ended the meeting. MR. SCHIFF: And were you asked for the campaign support for appeal of the Magnitsky Act? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall if they asked. We were -- I do know that in my statement, I believe I told them, Hey, we're private citizens. We're running a campaign. We don't have anything to do with government. This is not going to be, you know, as sentimental as it may be to a lot of people. It's not a campaign issue, nor would it ever be a campaign issue, and you know, we just don't have anything to do with this. MR. SCHIFF: Did you tell them that they should come talk to you after the election and you might help? MR. TRUMP: I may have said, If we win, go deal with the administration, because it was clear that they were lobbying for something to me, and that would be a standard course of practice. I don't recall saying that, but I may have. MR. SCHIFF: And did either Ms. Veselnitskaya or the Agalarovs follow up after the election to seek your assistance with the Magnitsky Act? MR. TRUMP: In preparation for this, I believe I saw an email from Rob Goldstone that I was not on, you know, asking about it, but I don't believe anything happened from it. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 72 MR. SCHIFF: And how is it that you don't believe anything happened from it? On what basis do you make that conclusion? MR. TRUMP: I'm just not aware of anything. MR. SCHIFF: If we could show the witness Bate stamp 245. Is this the email communication that you're referring to? MR. TRUMP: I believe it is. MR. SCHIFF: And at the top, this is an email from Rhona Graff to Steve Bannon dated November 22, 2016. It provides, "hi, Steve, the P.E." -- presumably, President-elect -- "knows Aras well. Rob is his rep in the U.S. and sent this on. I'm not sure how to proceed, if at all." MR. TRUMP: I believe it's November 28, right? I think you may have said 22nd. I just want to make sure I'm looking at the same one. MR. SCHIFF: Yes, it is. The attachments are dated November 22. Yes. Thank you MR. TRUMP: Got you. MR. SCHIFF: And the attachment appears to be an email from Rob Goldstone to Rhona Graff; subject matter, from Mr. Trump. "Hi, Rhona: Aras Agalarov has asked me to pass on this document and hope that it can be passed on to the appropriate team. If needed, a lawyer representing the case in New York currently. I'm happy to meet with any member of this transition team. Best, Rob." And the attachment is about the Magnitsky Act. Is that correct? MR. TRUMP: Can I read it? MR. SCHIFF: Yes, of course. MR. TRUMP: I sort of skimmed it. I think I have a general idea. MR. SCHIFF: So does this indicate to you that the Agalarovs were -- Aras UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 73 Agalarov, again, was serving as a conduit for the Russian lawyer in efforts to repeal the Magnitsky Act as a follow-up to your conversation in June? MR. TRUMP: Well, either that, or Rob Goldstone, I don't know, but Rob says that he is doing it on behalf of Aras. MR. SCHIFF: Well, would Rob Goldstone, as a music promoter, have any particular interest in the Magnitsky Act? MR. TRUMP: I have no idea. MR. SCHIFF: Would he be doing this and representing he's doing it on behalf of Aras Agalarov if the Agalarovs, either Emin or Aras, had not authorized that? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: During the course of your meeting in Trump Tower, were the sanctions imposed on the Magnitsky Act discussed? MR. TRUMP: I believe they were. Generally speaking, as part of the Magnitsky Act, this sounds reasonably familiar, so -MR. SCHIFF: And what do you recall what was discussed about sanctions? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall much, only that the sanctions, I guess, were what prompted Russia shutting down the adoption program for the U.S. MR. SCHIFF: And did Ms. Veselnitskaya make it clear that the Russians were hoping that if Mr. Trump were successful, he would eliminate those sanctions? MR. TRUMP: I don't know if she said that, but it was apparent that she was lobbying for the removal of sanctions. MR. SCHIFF: Was there any discussion at the meeting of the Democratic National Committee? MR. TRUMP: As I said, the only thing that could have been, as it related to UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 74 the DNC was, you know, the thing I mentioned about, you know, perhaps proper -- improper campaign contributions, and/or DNC contributions by these people who were, you know, avoiding taxation in either or both countries. MR. SCHIFF: Was there any mention of John Podesta? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: Any mention specifically of Hillary Clinton? MR. TRUMP: My recollection is that the mentions of Hillary Clinton were as it pertains to, you know, the people who were doing this, being donors of hers. MR. SCHIFF: And how about the Clinton Foundation. Was there any discussion of the Clinton Foundation? MR. TRUMP: Perhaps, but not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: And why do you say "perhaps"? MR. TRUMP: There may have been. I may have asked if they were talking about donations from any of these things. I don't know. I read about that yesterday, but I don't recall it. MR. SCHIFF: But you may have asked Ms. Veselnitskaya about whether she had any dirt on the Clintons, vis-à-vis, the Clinton Foundation? MR. TRUMP: I may have asked if that's what she was talking about as it related to donations, but I don't know. I don't know specifically, and I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever have a conversation -- well, was there any discussion in the meeting of any Hillary Clinton emails? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever have a conversation with anyone, either in the context of this meeting or otherwise, about attempts to secure the Clinton 33,000 deleted emails? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 75 MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. Five minutes. MR. SCHIFF: Was there any mention in the meeting of Russian support for your father or the Russian Government's preferences for the outcome of the election? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ask Ms. Veselnitskaya how this information was supposed to be helpful in the campaign? MR. TRUMP: I may have. I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: Did you take any notes on the meeting? MR. TRUMP: I did not. MR. SCHIFF: Do you know whether anyone else took notes? MR. TRUMP: As I mentioned earlier, Mr. Manafort was on an iPad, but I don't know what he was doing. MR. SCHIFF: And to your best recollection, there were no documents provided or exchanged? MR. TRUMP: That's correct. MR. SCHIFF: And how did the meeting conclude? MR. TRUMP: Casual goodbyes, and Rob was the last one to leave, sort of apologized for taking up our time, and everyone moved on accordingly. MR. SCHIFF: Now, you've said that you didn't discuss this meeting with Mr. Kushner or Mr. Manafort after it concluded. Did you discuss the meeting with anyone else? MR. TRUMP: Not that I remember, no. MR. SCHIFF: You mentioned that you did discuss with your father the UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 76 decision to publish the emails. Did you have any prior discussion with your father after the meeting and prior to the discussion about the publication of your emails? MR. TRUMP: About the publication. No, not that I remember. MR. SCHIFF: So the first conversation you had with your father after June 9 of last year and prior to the date, this year when you published the emails, during that period, you had no discussion with your father about the meeting or the emails that led up to it? MR. TRUMP: Could you just say the question again, because I want to make sure. It's sort of a long timeframe. MR. SCHIFF: You stated that -- do we have the date that Mr. Trump published the emails. Do you recall the date in which you published the emails? MR. FUTERFAS: I believe it's Monday, July 11, 2017. MR. SCHIFF: Between June 9 of 2016 and July 11. MR. FUTERFAS: Or 10th. MR. SCHIFF: 10th or 11th of 2017. MR. FUTERFAS: 10. MR. SCHIFF: Between those two dates, did you have any discussion with your father, in person, by phone, or written communication with your father, about the meeting in Trump Tower? MR. TRUMP: No, I don't believe I did. MR. SCHIFF: Once you did discuss the emails with your father, what took place -- I'm not going to ask you about what you asked your attorney or what your attorney told you, but what did you tell your father about the emails? MR. FUTERFAS: That's a -- we're going to assert privilege there, please. MR. SCHIFF: There's no privilege between Mr. Trump, Jr. and his father. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 77 So let me ask you again: What did you tell your father about the emails? MR. FUTERFAS: Well, just to be clear, the only conversations -- you're talking about conversations where Mr. Trump, Jr. was accompanied by counsel and his father was accompanied by counsel? Are you including those conversations, or are you saying aside from those conversations? MR. SCHIFF: I am asking about both conversations -- any conversations that you had with your father. Whether they were in the presence of counsel or not, your direct communications with your father are not privileged. So my question is, I think you've answered, but maybe I should be more specific. During the period from June 9 to -- June 9, 2016, to July 10, 2017, did you have any conversation with your father about the meeting in Trump Tower or the emails that preceded it, either alone with your father, in the company of others, or in the company of counsel? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. SCHIFF: So the first discussion you had with your father would have been in the presence of counsel on July -MR. TRUMP: I believe 11th. MR. SCHIFF: -- 11th of this year. MR. FUTERFAS: Whatever the Monday was. It might have been 10th, July 10, whatever the Monday -MR. TRUMP: Whatever that Monday was. MR. FUTERFAS: Yeah. MR. SCHIFF: And without asking about any of your comments to your attorney or your attorney's comments to you, what did you tell your father, and what did your father tell you about the meeting and the emails that were exchanged prior UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 78 to the meeting? MR. FUTERFAS: I think we're going to have to -- if you don't mind, we're going to have to discuss amongst ourselves whether -- the privileged nature of that and whether we choose to answer, if you can give us a few minutes. MR. SCHIFF: Sure. MR. CONAWAY: Go right across the hall. [Recess.] MR. CONAWAY: Back to work. Mr. Schiff, you have the table. Time was up. MR. CONAWAY: Oh, time was up? The time had expired, but I understand there was a pending -- there was a last question that was pending. MR. FUTERFAS: Yes, we understand the question. Thank you, but at this time, I'm going to have to request that my client not answer. There are -- we believe there are valid privilege invocations given that there were counsel, both on his side of the conversation and on his father's side of the conversation who were present for that conversation, and certainly, we want to count -- get counsel from and speak to his father's counsel to understand their position. They may feel similarly or not. If, at some point, we all agree that it is not privileged, or whatever the case may be, we can always respond to your question in writing after this, but at this point, I have to instruct him, because of those concerns, not to answer that question. MR. SCHIFF: Well, Mr. Trump, our research indicates that these communications are not privileged, and I do want to inform you that if you decline to UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 79 answer them on the advice of counsel, which you have every right to do, it will be necessary, in consultation with House counsel, to require you to come back. A written response won't be sufficient. However, if your subsequent discussions indicate that there is no privilege or if that's at odds with our House counsel, it may be necessary to subpoena you to return. I just want to make sure that you're understanding of that in advance. MR. TRUMP: Understood. MR. ROONEY: And I want to also add to that that a subpoena is voted on by the majority of the committee based on what the committee's, you know, arguments on both sides would be or the chairman. So, you know, I think that it's important that you understand, and that everybody in here understands that, you know, that is a decision the full committee makes, not the ranking member. May I see that? VOICE: Let me interrupt, if I could, Mr. Rooney, but the -MR. HIMES: I think, Mr. Rooney, that's inaccurate and that we should just -MR. ROONEY: I think that, if we could, I think that we should make sure that we understand that because this is the second interview in a row where that threat has been made, and I think that it's important that our people that are coming in here voluntarily, if they're subsequently asked a question where the counsel has said that he would provide the answer, if they -- if they feel like it's not privileged and then that is followed up by a threat that you will be subpoenaed if you don't, that it's clear that whatever our rules are with regard to whether the minority leader can unilaterally issue such a threat, that that is, in fact, the way that it works. MR. HIMES: I understand. Mr. Chairman, just a point of clarification. MR. CONAWAY: Gentleman, one at a time. Gentleman, one at a time. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 80 There is a transcript. MR. SCHIFF: One thing I can assure you, my colleagues, if House counsel concurs that this is not privileged, that will be public, and if the majority declines the subpoena and the witness still refuses to come, the majority will have to explain why it's not interested in getting the answer. So yes, I cannot represent that the majority will agree with the minority, but I can promise you both you and the majority will have to explain why we are acting contrary to the advice of House counsel. MR. ROONEY: I have no problem with that. House counsel, you know, can issue any opinion that they want, and if the full committee does not feel that that is justified, then we will have to explain that to the public. I totally agree with that. MR. CONAWAY: Mr. Himes. MR. HIMES: I don't disagree with what Mr. Rooney said. I was just raising the point of information that I think that under our rules, the subpoena is at the discretion of the chairman in consultation with the minority as opposed to voted on by the majority. So my point of information is simply that none of us walk away with inaccurate -MR. ROONEY: It's both. MR. CONAWAY: Reclaiming, reclaiming the control, what little we've got. We need to get back to the witness. We'll have these family fusses off the record at some point in time. MR. ROONEY: I'm up. MR. CONAWAY: You're up? So 15 minutes for Tom. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 81 [12:15 p.m.] MR. ROONEY: May I see that document? I just have one followup question with that. You had said previously, Mr. Trump, that you -- that Mr. Goldstone made some iteration after the Trump Tower meeting that he apologized or felt, you know, apologetic for, did you say wasting your time or something along those lines? MR. TRUMP: I don't want to put words in his mouth, but something to the effect, yes. MR. ROONEY: So this email from Rhona to Steve -- just a second: Aras Agalarov asked me to pass this document in the hope that it can be passed on to the appropriate team. If needed, a lawyer representing the case in New York currently and happy to meet with any member of his transition team. So this with regard to the act. I guess my question is just, if he basically apologized for wasting your time, I wonder -- and you might not know this -- why is he following up with more of the same in this email to Rhona? Do you know? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. But I notice that I'm not on the email. MR. ROONEY: Right. MR. TRUMP: And I know that he did cc me on a lot of email correspondence to Rhona. So I don't know, but I only saw that in preparation for this. MR. ROONEY: I guess where I'm curious is to, you know, one of the allegations that's been made, and I don't know that it's true or not, that the Agalarovs act as a proxy for Putin and the Russian Government. Do you know if that's true? MR. TRUMP: I don't. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 82 MR. ROONEY: And then Mr. Goldstone works for the Agalarovs, so it's sort of a proxy to a proxy. Do you believe that to be true? MR. TRUMP: I know that he works for the Agalarovs, so I don't know anything beyond that. MR. ROONEY: So I guess -- I guess where I'm going with this is if Goldstone apologized to you, but then reiterated, you know, a need for the Trump team to understand this act, it might be possible but you have no awareness of that? MR. TRUMP: I have no awareness. That's not what I was thinking at the time. MR. ROONEY: That's it. MR. CONAWAY: Anybody else? Mr. Schiff, 15 minutes. MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Trump, by your account, the meeting did not end up being what Mr. Goldstone had promised. Did you ever raise your concern or disappointment after the meeting with Emin Agalarov? MR. TRUMP: No, I don't believe I did. MR. SCHIFF: So you don't recall whether you spoke with Emin before the meeting. Is it your testimony that after the meeting you never discussed what took place on June 9 with Emin? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe I spoke to him, and I don't have any phone records that indicate that I would have. MR. SCHIFF: Well, there is the phone record indicating context prior to the meeting, but you don't recall whether that conversation took place -UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 83 MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. SCHIFF: -- or whether it was voicemails? Now, the combination of the two incoming calls from Russia is about 5 minutes in duration. Is it your testimony that you think that might be a 5-minute voicemail or two voicemails adding up to 5 minutes? That's a pretty long time to leave a voicemail. MR. TRUMP: I didn't -- I don't know that it was just a voicemail. Someone could have picked up and been on hold. I have no idea because I have no recollection of what -- of those calls. MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Goldstone or the Agalarovs or anyone else in that meeting ever offer at any other time to deliver the promised material, incriminating information on Clinton or Russian assistance? MR. TRUMP: No, not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: Well, you would recall if they had offered subsequently that -- subsequent to that meeting any further dirt or incriminating information on Hillary Clinton, wouldn't you? MR. TRUMP: I imagine I would. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever ask them to? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: Isn't that the kind of thing you would remember as well if you followed up by asking Emin or Rob Goldstone or someone else to give you better dirt on Hillary Clinton? MR. TRUMP: I probably would, but, again, I think given the outcome of the meeting I just sort of moved on. MR. SCHIFF: Was there any followup from the meeting of any kind? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 84 MR. FUTERFAS: I'm sorry. What was the question? MR. SCHIFF: Was there any followup from the meeting of any kind? MR. TRUMP: Not to my recollection, no. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever discuss the meeting with Corey Lewandowski? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe I did. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever discuss the meeting with Michael Flynn? MR. TRUMP: Not to my recollection, no. MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss the meeting with anyone else involved in the campaign? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe I discussed it with anyone after the meeting, so no. MR. SCHIFF: I mentioned before that Mr. Papadopoulos has acknowledged that he was informed by the Russians through intermediaries that they were in possession of stolen Clinton emails prior to your Trump Tower meeting. Was it ever communicated to you by anyone from the campaign or anyone outside the campaign that the Russians were in possession of stolen Clinton emails? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. SCHIFF: Your father gave a speech, a campaign speech on the evening of June 7. This would have been 4 days after you got the Goldstone email and after the exchange of calls with Emin, whether they were answered or otherwise. In that speech, your father said, "I'm going to give a major speech on probably Monday of next week, and we're going to be discussing all of the things that have taken place with the Clintons. I think you're going to find it very informative and very, very interesting." UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 85 What was your father referring to? MR. TRUMP: I have no idea. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever discuss the speech with him? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: Did you talk with him before the speech? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall speaking to him about it at all. MR. SCHIFF: And after your meeting at Trump Tower and before he was to give this speech, did you talk with him? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: What very, very interesting information about Hillary Clinton was he teasing? MR. TRUMP: I don't know, but this could have been at the time when WikiLeaks and others were teasing information. I don't know how many Podesta email leaks there were, but I believe it was over 30- or 40-something iterations, so they were teasing that for months. That could have been around that time, so maybe that's what that was. MR. SCHIFF: I believe Mr. Assange only made public that he had the stolen emails after your Trump Tower meeting. MR. TRUMP: I don't know of the timing. I'm just -- I'm trying to answer your question what he may have been referring to, but I don't recall having a conversation with him. MR. FUTERFAS: One second, please. [Discussion off the record.] MR. SCHIFF: Well, if WikiLeaks hadn't made it public prior to the Trump Tower meeting that they were in possession of these emails, how could your father UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 86 have been referring to them on June 7? MR. TRUMP: I don't know that that's what he was referring to. MR. SCHIFF: Was he referring to the information that had been promised in the Trump Tower meeting? MR. TRUMP: Again, I didn't speak to him, to my recollection, about it at all, so I would find that very hard to believe. MR. SCHIFF: Do you know whether Mr. Manafort or Mr. Kushner spoke with your father about what was promised in the Trump Tower meeting? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SCHIFF: Do you know whether anyone else spoke to your father about the Trump Tower meeting? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SCHIFF: Do you know whether your father was aware that the Russian Government, at least according to Aras Agalarov through Emin and Rob Goldstone, was offering dirt on Hillary Clinton? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: On several occasions during the campaign and afterwards, the Agalarovs sent notes wishing good luck or conveying congratulations to your father via Rob Goldstone who then emailed Rhona Graff. On each occasion, Rhona made sure that your father saw those notes and made it clear that doing so was, quote, "important." And he replied more than once with many handwritten notes of his own. But in this instance, when Aras Agalarov offered your father a gift of helpful information from the Russian Government, that information wasn't passed on to your father? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 87 MR. TRUMP: To what are you referring to? The initial email to me? MR. SCHIFF: Yes. MR. TRUMP: Again, I've stated numerous times that I don't recall ever bringing it to him or speaking to him about it. MR. SCHIFF: Why would mere greetings from Aras Agalarov be considered important enough to get to your father but this information wouldn't be? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. They communicated with Rhona Graff, and that would have been something. But Rhona Graff wasn't on the initial email, so casual niceties would have probably gone through her. MR. SCHIFF: Well, the offer was made to send this to Rhona, though, wasn't it? MR. TRUMP: I believe that's -- I see the date of that, post-election. Yes, I believe it was. MR. SCHIFF: And had this information been sent to Rhona, it would have gone to your father, correct? MR. TRUMP: Or it may have gone in the recycling bin. I have no idea. MR. SCHIFF: Well, Rhona didn't recycle mere greetings from Aras Agalarov. She marked them important and sent them on to your father. Did she not? MR. TRUMP: Sure, as she would have with any other friend wishing congratulations. MR. SCHIFF: And you really think that Rhona would have taken this email from Aras Agalarov offering information that would be helpful to your father and thrown it out? MR. FUTERFAS: I would just like to state an objection to a number of the UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 88 last questions. You're asking my client to speculate about things that he does not have personal knowledge of. That's what those questions sound like. I'll, of course, allow my client to answer, but I note my objection for the record. Thank you. MR. TRUMP: Yeah. I don't know Rhona would have or would not have done with it. MR. SCHIFF: How long have you known Rhona? MR. TRUMP: Thirty years. MR. SCHIFF: And knowing her for 30 years, you think that she would have taken emails along the lines of what Mr. Goldstone was promising and, instead of delivering them to your father, she would have thrown them out? MR. TRUMP: She gets pretty inundated. I don't know if she would have thrown them out. I don't know that she would have gotten to them. I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: In any event, they didn't get to her because you thought it was better to have that conversation than have the emails forwarded on? MR. TRUMP: Where does it say that? MR. FUTERFAS: Objection. Object to the question. MR. SCHIFF: Well, Mr. Goldstone offered to provide the information to Rhona but said it was sensitive, and you didn't take him up on that offer, did you? MR. TRUMP: I did not take him up on the offer, no. I don't even know that I noticed it. MR. SCHIFF: Were you involved at all in helping your father prepare for the speech that he was previewing about the very, very interesting information on the Clintons? MR. TRUMP: I was not. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 89 MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever ask your father what he meant by the very informative and very, very interesting information on Clinton? MR. TRUMP: I did not. MR. SCHIFF: Rob Goldstone's June 3 email to you said that Emin Agalarov had "asked me to contact you with something very interesting." Was this the very interesting information that your father was referring to? MR. TRUMP: I have no idea. MR. SCHIFF: So you have no idea whether it was ever communicated to your father that the Russian Government, via Aras Agalarov, was offering very interesting information on Clinton? MR. TRUMP: I know that I don't recall ever giving it to him. I don't recall bringing it to anyone else. So I can't imagine it was. And given the outcome of the meeting, there was nothing interesting. MR. SCHIFF: So your best estimate would be that it was a coincidence that your father was promising very interesting information on Clinton at a time when Rob Goldstone was promising from Aras Agalarov very interesting information on Hillary Clinton? MR. FUTERFAS: The objection at this time is to this question has been asked and answered about five times. Calls for speculation. But notwithstanding that, I'll certainly allow my client to answer. MR. TRUMP: Yeah. Listen, I know of a lot of things that were coming around at that time. I know they were talking about the book "Clinton Cash." I know they were talking about all these, you know, Clinton conspiracies. People were bringing up more and new things, so it could have been any one of those things. I wasn't involved. I don't know. But there was certainly no shortage of UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 90 smoke that they could have been talking about. MR. SCHIFF: Before July 2017, when the news broke about this meeting, did you discuss the meeting with your sister Ivanka? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall speaking to her about it. MR. SCHIFF: Have you ever discussed this meeting with your sister? MR. TRUMP: Not to my recollection. MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss it with your brother Eric? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so, but, again, I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss it with Kellyanne Conway? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss it with Jeff Sessions? MR. TRUMP: I haven't spoken to Jeff Sessions since the election probably, so I doubt it, but I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss it with Steve Bannon? MR. TRUMP: Not to my recollection. MR. SCHIFF: Have you ever discussed this or your contacts with WikiLeaks with Roger Stone? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so, no. MR. SCHIFF: Rick Gates? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: Carter Page? MR. TRUMP: I've never met Carter Page, so I doubt it. MR. SCHIFF: And I think you've already said you didn't discuss this with Michael Flynn. Is that correct? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe I did. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 91 MR. SCHIFF: Michael Caputo? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: Michael Cohen? MR. TRUMP: Not to my knowledge. MR. SCHIFF: Dan Scavino? MR. TRUMP: Again, I don't recall speaking about this to anyone. MR. SCHIFF: Hope Hicks? MR. TRUMP: I did not speak with Hope about it. We had text communications. It was that week in July -- in July of -MR. FUTERFAS: This year, 2017. MR. TRUMP: -- of this year. MR. SCHIFF: And have those text communications been produced to the committee? MR. FUTERFAS: No. MR. SCHIFF: And why is that? MR. FUTERFAS: Actually, I don't believe they have. But we did not read the committee's request -- we read the committee's -- this committee's request to be for information about the meeting itself and about individuals who were part of the meeting. We did not read this committee's request to include how individuals were going to discuss or -- discuss the meeting a year after it occurred. That's our reading of this committee's request. MR. SCHIFF: So your communications with others, including Hope Hicks, about how you were going to discuss the meeting that took place, you have not produced to the committee? MR. FUTERFAS: I believe that's the case. We will -- we could -- we can UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 92 double check that, and I'm sure we will, but I don't think they were. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Chairman, those should be produced to the committee. They have a direct bearing on what took place during the meeting. If they were private communications about what happened in the meeting that are at odds with what the public testimony or the private testimony has been, that's obviously very pertinent to the committee. MR. CONAWAY: Do you have any objection for us to expand the scope of the request to provide those? MR. FUTERFAS: No, I have none. MR. CONAWAY: All right. We'll get those to the committee quickly. MR. FUTERFAS: Okay. Thank you. One minute, sir. MR. SCHIFF: To the best of your recollection, what did you -- was this a text communication or an email with Hope Hicks? MR. TRUMP: Text communication. MR. SCHIFF: And what did you text Hope Hicks? MR. TRUMP: We were discussing my response to an inquiry to them, and then later to us, about the meeting from The New York Times. MR. SCHIFF: So after you were contacted by the New York Times, is that when you texted Hope Hicks, or did you text her prior to being communicated with by The New York Times? MR. TRUMP: I believe that The New York Times reached out to them first and then to us. I had had numerous conversations with counsel about response. Then I believe -- I'm not sure the exact chronology, but I believe then Hope got involved because they had reached out to them as well. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 93 MR. SCHIFF: And did Hope Hicks initially communicate via text with you or did you reach out to her? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: And what did she say in her text communication? MR. TRUMP: I believe there was some back and forth about the statement that I would put out. There were a couple iterations that I had worked on with counsel, a longer version, a shorter version, and about which one to go with. I believe she may have made some minor suggestions to one or both of our statements. I wasn't -- I don't recall. In the end, it was up to me which one to go with, and we did that. MR. SCHIFF: And at what point were you provided with the emails again, or were they always in your possession? MR. TRUMP: I imagine they were always in our possession, but I don't -- I had -- I hadn't seen the email, I don't believe, until we handed them over probably for -- to either one of the committees or special counsel. MR. FUTERFAS: Is your question -- just to clarify your question -- is your question -- the meeting we all, I think, agree is June 9, 2016. The events that Mr. Trump, Jr. is just describing with the text messaging with Hope Hicks was over the weekend of July 8-9 of 2017, 13 months later. So is your question did Mr. Trump, Jr. have -- retain those text messages from the 13 months before? MR. TRUMP: The emails from the 13 months before. MR. FUTERFAS: The emails from the 13 months before. MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, counsel. That is my question, and it was inartful. When the issue was raised with you in July of this year, was it initially raised with you by Hope Hicks or by The New York Times? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 94 MR. TRUMP: I believe it was raised by The New York Times. MR. SCHIFF: And did The New York Times provide you with emails and ask you about them, or how did the emails again come to your attention? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall if it was for that or if it was through, you know, production to either one of the committees or special counsel that we first saw them. MR. SCHIFF: So you may have seen emails again prior to being contacted by The New York Times? MR. TRUMP: I may have. I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: And then going to the communication with Hope Hicks, I think you said you weren't sure who had contacted whom first, or did I misunderstand? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall, correct. MR. SCHIFF: And what was Hope Hicks' suggestion vis-à-vis the emails? MR. TRUMP: I believe we had presented multiple statements, a longer-form version and a shorter-form version. And I believe she preferred, in speaking with people, whoever they were, to go with a shorter-form version of the statements that we had started preparing with counsel. We're past time, sir. MR. SCHIFF: I'm sorry. MR. ROONEY: Do you want to take a break? MR. TRUMP: I'm fine. MR. CONAWAY: Do you have anything? Another 15, Adam. MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When you say longer-form or shorter-form version, are you talking about a version that would include all of the emails or some of the emails, or are you talking UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 95 about a statement to accompany the emails? MR. FUTERFAS: No -MR. TRUMP: Neither. MR. FUTERFAS: Let me just, I think, note -- I think we should -- these questions that concern a response to a media inquiry 13 months after the event -- which is what these questions are about, they're about a response to a media inquiry -- I am concerned that they are not pertinent, as the Supreme Court has defined pertinence in Watkins v. the United States, to this committee's -- the parameters of the committee. And I just want to put it out there, because I have concerns. I have what I understand to be the public description of this committee's inquiry, and I'm reading it, and I do not see how information about a response to a media inquiry 13 months after the events is pertinent to investigation of events that occurred well before that. You know, the Supreme Court law in this is pretty solid, that questions have to be pertinent to the jurisdiction of this committee. And I have concerns, and I'm voicing those concerns, that questions about how people are going to respond to a media inquiry is not necessarily pertinent to what Russia did or didn't do during a period of time or what, you know, et cetera. So I don't know what this committee wants to do with that, but I do have concerns about pertinency in this regard. MR. SCHIFF: Counsel, you've already offered to make the text or email communications available to the committee, so obviously discussing with the witness what the contents of those is pertinent to what you've already agreed to provide to the committee. Beyond that, if the witness characterized the meeting differently in UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 96 communications with Hope Hicks, that's obviously very directly pertinent. If, on the other hand, Mr. Trump's communication with Hope Hicks corroborates his recollection of the meeting, then that is also very pertinent to the meeting -- to the investigation. So -MR. FUTERFAS: Well, I would say this. We could certainly, you know, as a matter of courtesy, we could certainly provide those text messages. But if the subject matter of this committee is now going to be expanded to an inquiry about what -- how someone responded to a media report, I think that's something that we would have to consider carefully and maybe brief this committee on. MR. SCHIFF: Well, counsel, I appreciate your comments. We're not asking your client about some extraneous topic and communications strategy vis-à-vis the Balkans. We're talking about a meeting that is the very center of this investigation. So, in any event, your concerns have been noted. But I would return to the question, Mr. Trump. MR. CONAWAY: Let me -- the witness is here on a voluntary basis. It's the committee's responsibility to determine the scope of our jurisdiction. Appreciate your thoughts, but it's our responsibility to do that. And so if the witness is here on a voluntary basis, if he chooses not to answer, he chooses not to answer. We understand that. So, Mr. Schiff, you'll continue with your questions, and we'll keep moving. MR. FUTERFAS: Can I just have a moment? MR. CONAWAY: Sure. MR. FUTERFAS: Actually, could we have a moment just to discuss our position on this? Thank you. MR. CONAWAY: Let's take a 5-minute break, everybody. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 97 [Recess.] MR. CONAWAY: All right. Adam was about to continue with his line of questioning. So thank you all. MR. SCHIFF: Counsel had to confer, so I don't know if you have something you wanted to inform us of. MR. FUTERFAS: We're done conferring, and we will answer your questions. MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, counsel. So if you would, getting back to your text exchange with Hope Hicks, I asked if it concerned the scope of the emails that would be released or the scope of the statement that would be released. I think you said neither. MR. TRUMP: It was only about the statement. MR. SCHIFF: In your text communications with Hope Hicks, did you discuss whether to release the emails? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe I did. MR. SCHIFF: And in terms of the statement, did you draft a statement yourself and send to her, did she draft one and send it to you? What was the nature of the communication? MR. TRUMP: I worked with counsel on the statement, and counsel may have sent to Hope. MR. SCHIFF: So when Hope Hicks texted you, she already had a statement that you and counsel had worked out? MR. TRUMP: I believe she had a version or may have had versions of a statement from counsel. MR. SCHIFF: And did she send you either edits or suggestions to the UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 98 version that she had been presented? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: Well, what do you recall of the interchange? MR. TRUMP: I know she had, I believe, given some suggestions to counsel. I gave a suggestion or two myself. And in the end it was left to me which version, long or short, to go with. MR. SCHIFF: And was the version that you drafted with counsel, was that the long or the short version? MR. TRUMP: Both. MR. SCHIFF: So you drafted two different versions? MR. TRUMP: Correct. We probably had -- may have even had a few more. But there was a long form and a short form. MR. SCHIFF: And what information was in the long form that wasn't included in the short form? MR. TRUMP: More ancillary details as it pertained to the meeting. MR. SCHIFF: And what was Hope Hicks' recommendation? MR. TRUMP: Her recommendation, she preferred going with a short form of the statement. MR. SCHIFF: Did she make any substantive recommendations or alterations to either statement? MR. TRUMP: Not with me. MR. SCHIFF: Did she make that with others? MR. TRUMP: I believe with counsel. MR. SCHIFF: And did you ultimately go with the long or the short statement? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 99 MR. TRUMP: Went with the short. MR. SCHIFF: And had that been her recommendation? MR. TRUMP: I believe that was her preference, yes. MR. SCHIFF: And what information was included in the long statement that was not included in the short statement? MR. TRUMP: Again, I don't have it in front of me, but, you know, ancillary additional details about the meetings that expanded beyond, I guess, the initial inquiry of the New York Times reporter. MR. SCHIFF: And what ancillary information was that? MR. TRUMP: The -- I guess -- I'm trying to recall. I don't have them both in front of me. I believe just details about what perhaps was the premise of the meeting initially versus what actually transpired at the meeting and filling in additional blanks. MR. SCHIFF: Well, the longer version, did it include more information about the initial purpose of the meeting? MR. TRUMP: I believe it did. MR. SCHIFF: And that was the information about what was being promised? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. SCHIFF: And that was ultimately excluded from the statement that was issued? MR. TRUMP: That is correct. MR. SCHIFF: And did Hope Hicks explain why she was recommending that that be excluded? MR. TRUMP: I believe that was the preference of, you know, her and the UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 100 people they were with. I believe they were coming back from Munich on Air Force One. So, you know, a team of people on the plane preferred that. MR. SCHIFF: I'm going to let Mr. Quigley go into that information then. Before I do, let me just conclude one other matter. On the same day as the June 9 meeting, at 4:40 p.m., your father tweeted, "How long did it take your staff" -- "your" referring, I think, to Hillary Clinton -- "of 823 people to think that up, and where are your 33,000 emails that you deleted?" Do you have any idea why your father was tweeting about the deleted emails at the time of your meeting? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Quigley. MR. QUIGLEY: Afternoon. Thanks for being here. MR. TRUMP: My pleasure. MR. QUIGLEY: Thank you. So did Ms. Hicks tell you who else was involved on her side with editing this or contributing to this response? MR. TRUMP: I believe it was -- I believe my father was there, and I believe his, you know, a bunch of lawyers were there as well or involved. MR. QUIGLEY: Well, she told you that, correct? Is this all by text? MR. TRUMP: This is all by text. I don't believe I spoke to anyone about this, so this is all by text, yes. MR. QUIGLEY: Okay. And so she mentioned your father was there, and your understanding that he would have contributed to this or was? MR. TRUMP: At least partially, yes. MR. QUIGLEY: Okay. And did she mention anybody else by name? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 101 MR. TRUMP: It was my impression that it was his legal team. MR. QUIGLEY: Okay. Why did the -- why was your preference to go with the shorter version? What was your preference and why? MR. TRUMP: Well, initially I think I wanted to go with the longer version. I chose to go with the shorter version because I think it addressed all the points and didn't -- in the end may not have led to other questions. But, you know, once it became apparent that, you know, The Times had the full chain, I was happy to release them all and show everyone what they were talking about. MR. QUIGLEY: So it didn't include the fact that the original premise was, in the meeting with Russians, to talk about dirt on Hillary, correct, something like that? MR. TRUMP: Correct. I didn't think it was necessary to tell The New York Times what the meeting wasn't actually about just because that was the premise of the meeting. MR. QUIGLEY: Or acknowledging who was participating in the meeting, the same answer? MR. TRUMP: Well, at that time I probably didn't even remember who was in the meeting beyond the female attorney and her translator. MR. QUIGLEY: Did she communicate at all with you about what each person on the plane's thoughts were? I mean, did she specifically say that the President wants you to say X or that he contributed anything in particular? MR. TRUMP: I think, you know, she made it clear that his preference was the shorter statement as well. I know edits had gone back and forth with -- through counsel. And in the end it was clear to me that it was up to me, and I was fine with that. MR. QUIGLEY: So she did say that he preferred the shorter version. Was UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 102 there anything else that she said that he had noted, preferred, or wanted to add or subtract? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, but I don't have them in front of me right now. MR. QUIGLEY: But it was that specific? MR. TRUMP: Well, I don't know if it was specific at all. I think she thought that they preferred the shorter statement. I looked at it and said, okay, I think that's fine because it covers all the bases. It's, you know -- it is an accurate statement without going into more detail. I was fine with that and agreed to it, and in the end it was my call to release the shorter statement. MR. QUIGLEY: And you expressed that you hadn't talked to anyone about the meeting. This exchange, this story didn't spur a discussion with anyone in the Trump campaign? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, simply because it was such a -- the only people I spoke to about it were counsel. And because, to me, the meeting was such a nothing, I didn't think that this was a big deal at all. MR. QUIGLEY: It didn't spur -- this final thought on that didn't spur a conversation with your father about the meeting -MR. TRUMP: No, I never -MR. QUIGLEY: -- subsequent to that? MR. TRUMP: Again, I never spoke to him other than what I said on Monday, with his counsel and my counsel present. MR. QUIGLEY: Okay. Did you serve on the executive committee of the Trump transition team? MR. TRUMP: I don't know if I officially did. I wasn't very involved in the transition team. I did get myself involved in some things but not on an extensive UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 103 basis. MR. QUIGLEY: What was your role? MR. TRUMP: As it related to transition? MR. QUIGLEY: Right. MR. TRUMP: I basically helped vet some of the people for the Department of the Interior initially. That would have been right after election and did not -- it was -- I wasn't going to be going to D.C., so I sort of weaned myself off and got back to our business, which we had maybe neglected a little bit for the prior year. MR. QUIGLEY: Well, did you attend any transition team meetings with the executive committee or anyone else? MR. TRUMP: I may have. MR. QUIGLEY: Okay. Did you serve or play any role on the national security team that was involved with the transition? MR. TRUMP: Not to my recollection, but that doesn't mean I wasn't in a meeting. MR. QUIGLEY: Do you know how many meetings there were or how many you might have participated in on the national security team? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. QUIGLEY: Okay. Do you recall when you met General Flynn the first time? MR. TRUMP: Not specifically, no. MR. QUIGLEY: When would have been the last time you met the general? MR. TRUMP: Maybe the last time would have perhaps been around inauguration. I imagine I saw him there. MR. QUIGLEY: You didn't -- you haven't -- you didn't meet with the general UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 104 after inauguration? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, but, you know, if I was at the White House with my father, I'd been there a few times, but I may have seen him there. But I don't recall specifically meeting him, no. MR. QUIGLEY: During transition times you would have met with him? MR. TRUMP: I would have seen him. Again, I didn't have extensive contact with him. More of the contact I would have had with him was perhaps during the campaign. MR. QUIGLEY: Did you discuss with General Flynn any of the -- did General Flynn in the discussions he might have had with you during the course of the campaign talk to you about Russia? MR. TRUMP: Not to my recollection, no. MR. QUIGLEY: Did he talk to you about sanctions and Ukraine? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so, no. I didn't get too involved in foreign policy. MR. QUIGLEY: Did he talk to you -- did you two talk at any time during the transition period about Russia or sanctions and Ukraine, any of those issues at all? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. MR. QUIGLEY: Can you describe General Flynn's relationship and contact with your father during the campaign? MR. TRUMP: He was an adviser. He occasionally traveled with my father as an adviser. I don't believe he was primarily based in New York. I think he was primarily based down in D.C., but he would be in New York on occasion. MR. QUIGLEY: So it's your understanding that they would meet and communicate in various means, correct? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 105 MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. QUIGLEY: By phone? By email? In writing? MR. TRUMP: Probably not email, probably not writing, because my father doesn't really use email, but they may have spoken by phone, yes. MR. QUIGLEY: Okay. To your knowledge, did your father and the general ever discuss the RNC platform? MR. TRUMP: To my knowledge, no. I don't know. MR. QUIGLEY: To your knowledge, or were you aware of any times they discussed Ukraine and the Ukraine part of the platform to the RNC? MR. TRUMP: Not to my knowledge. Just about 1 minute left, sir. MR. QUIGLEY: To your knowledge, did your father and the general ever discuss Russia and President Putin, to your knowledge? MR. TRUMP: Not to my knowledge, no. MR. QUIGLEY: U.S.-Russia relations? MR. TRUMP: Also not to my knowledge. MR. QUIGLEY: Ukraine? MR. TRUMP: Not that I'm aware of. MR. QUIGLEY: U.S. sanctions? MR. TRUMP: Again, not that I'm aware of. MR. QUIGLEY: The Russian ambassador, Ambassador Kislyak? MR. TRUMP: I don't know that he had any conversations with my father about that. MR. QUIGLEY: WikiLeaks or Julian Assange? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 106 MR. QUIGLEY: Using Hillary Clinton's emails during the course of the campaign? MR. TRUMP: Also don't know. MR. QUIGLEY: Now, would have had any -- on all those same questions, would have had a discussion with General Flynn on any of those issues, general, on Putin, U.S.-Russia relations, Ukraine, U.S. sanctions, none of those? MR. TRUMP: We may have, but I don't recall ever speaking to him about those issues, no. MR. QUIGLEY: Just roughly, how many times you might have had a conversation with General Flynn? MR. TRUMP: A dozen, maybe two dozen times I'd see him. I mean, if he was in the campaign offices, that doesn't mean I wouldn't go by him three times a day if he was working in New York that day. But I didn't -MR. QUIGLEY: You had conversations, but they were about none of these issues? MR. TRUMP: Correct. Most of our conversations with General Flynn would have generally been casual, you know, formalities, hello, goodbye, how's the family. I didn't -- you know, my job on the campaign and throughout was mostly being on the road campaigning, speaking all around America, so I didn't get very involved in foreign policy or other issues of that nature because, frankly, we had teams that had much more knowledge than I ever would have, so I did what I was good at. MR. CONAWAY: All right. Turning to the Twitter exchange with WikiLeaks in September 2016. MR. TRUMP: Sure. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 107 MR. CONAWAY: We'll, I suspect, go through each one of them in detail, but can you just broadly talk about what was going on, why they thought they made contact with you, and what was your impression of what was happening with this WikiLeaks exchanges. MR. TRUMP: I don't know. Perhaps they reached out to me because I was retweeting a bunch of their stuff, and I have a relatively formidable social media platform. MR. CONAWAY: And what was the -- on the September 21 tweet, what's the anti-Trump PAC? MR. TRUMP: I didn't know. They reached out to me, asked me for comment on some PAC. They had put that out publicly an hour before they ever reached out to me, so I may have seen it then. You know, perhaps they DM'd me to highlight it. And that's about the extent of it. MR. CONAWAY: All right. And then an October 3 exchange, something to do with pushing out a statement and if you've already done that. What's involved there? MR. TRUMP: I believe they were, you know, doing one of their many dumps, and they asked me if I would, again, retweet it so that my followers would see the material that they were pushing out. Apparently, based on my response, by the time I had received the DM, because it goes through Twitter, so I may not check it as often certainly as email, by the time I had seen the response or their request I had already done so because I must have thought whatever it was that they were asking was interesting. MR. CONAWAY: And then you asked them, "What's behind this Wednesday leak I keep hearing about?" What was that Wednesday leak, do you UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 108 think? MR. TRUMP: They, throughout the course of, you know, the 40-something, whatever, however many leaks that they were doing, they were promoting and teasing: Hey, we're dropping a big, you know, big bomb on Wednesday or whatever it may be with each one of these. They were being, you know, I guess, good promoters and getting everyone, media included, frenzied as to what was coming next. So I simply asked what was to it, because I believed they were building up to something big and I was curious. MR. CONAWAY: Yeah. So I'm not real familiar with the mechanics. Did you retweet or resend that October 3 -MR. TRUMP: Apparently I did it, because anything that they had sent me, they had put out publicly on their Twitter account before they ever sent it to me. They DM'd me to perhaps highlight the issue to make sure I would see it. So I had already seen it when they released it publicly, and I'd already hit retweet. You know, it takes about 1 second, so that I can just hit the retweet button. Everyone that follows me now sees what they had put out as well. MR. CONAWAY: Gotcha. And you think you did, in fact, retweet that one? MR. TRUMP: I believe I did because my response to them says that, hey, I already -- by the time I saw their message to me, I had already done it because, again, they were releasing all their things publicly first. MR. CONAWAY: And then WikiLeaks did not respond to your question? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe they did, no. MR. CONAWAY: All right. And then the rest of the incoming tweets, apparently, you did not respond to. Is that correct? MR. TRUMP: That's correct. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 109 MR. CONAWAY: And you didn't respond because you saw them too late? What was the rationale there for that? MR. TRUMP: I didn't respond because it wasn't something I was going to do, and I wasn't going to follow through on their requests. And if I didn't think it was beneficial to me, I wouldn't have done it. MR. CONAWAY: Tom. MR. ROONEY: I'm good. MR. CONAWAY: All right. Adam, 15 minutes. MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to ask you a few followup questions before I turn it back to Mr. Quigley. I want to make sure I understand what was happening and where everyone was at the time that you were communicating with Hope Hicks. So the time you were text messaging Hope Hicks, was she on the plane with the President? MR. TRUMP: I don't know specifically. You'd have to ask her where she was. I know they were -- I guess it was the G20 meeting, perhaps in Munich, whatever was going on at that time. So they were there. I don't know where she was throughout the course of the text chain. But they were in Germany, and I was at my country place, and I believe I was up in the Catskills, in upstate New York. MR. SCHIFF: You said, I think, though, that at the time that you were texting the President was on Air Force One. Did I understand that correctly? MR. TRUMP: For at least a portion of that. Again, they did a fast travel time, so they may have been on the ground. They were in the air, I know they were in the air for at least a component of that, I believe. MR. SCHIFF: But Hope Hicks was with your father? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 110 MR. TRUMP: I don't know if she was with him the whole time. This is a chain of events over maybe 2 days? So I don't know. She was traveling with him. MR. SCHIFF: Now, I think you said to Mr. Quigley that Hope Hicks communicated to you that your father preferred the short version of the statement. Is that right? MR. TRUMP: I believe that is correct, yes. MR. SCHIFF: Did you speak to your father directly during this period about how to respond to the New York Times? MR. TRUMP: No, I did not. In fact, she asked me if I wanted to, and I said there's no need. I had the information I had. I had worked with counsel. I was happy with the short statement, and I put it out accordingly. MR. SCHIFF: So you had no direct discussion with your father prior to putting your statement out about the meeting? MR. TRUMP: That's correct. MR. SCHIFF: And the only way that you know your father preferred the short version was because Hope Hicks told you that? MR. TRUMP: I believe that's correct, yes. MR. SCHIFF: Did anyone other than Hope Hicks communicate to you what your father's view was on the statement? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so, no. MR. SCHIFF: To what degree was your father involved in drafting the statement? MR. TRUMP: I don't think he was very significantly involved at all, because I had worked extensively with counsel on numerous drafts, and the final product was -- I don't want to say identical but virtually identical to those statements. So UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 111 there wasn't significant changes made. MR. SCHIFF: Were there any changes that you would consider insignificant that were made by your father? MR. TRUMP: I don't know specifically. I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: Were there changes of any kind made by your father, to your knowledge? MR. TRUMP: Actually, no, because I didn't exchange drafts other than through counsel. MR. SCHIFF: Have you -MR. FUTERFAS: Can I have 1 minute? Excuse me. [Discussion off the record.] MR. FUTERFAS: Thank you. MR. SCHIFF: Were you informed subsequent to your text exchanges or during your text exchanges with Hope Hicks that your father had made any alterations to the statement? MR. TRUMP: No. I don't recall having any idea what my father was doing or saying. MR. SCHIFF: And you know nothing more about your father's role in the formulation of the statement than what you've already testified to just now? MR. TRUMP: I believe that's correct. MR. SCHIFF: Do you know whether your father wanted information about Russia offering this information as a part of its government support for your father's campaign? Do you know whether your father wanted that included? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall, no. MR. SCHIFF: That was in the -- was that in the longer version? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 112 MR. TRUMP: Could you -- I'd have to see them both. I don't have them in front of me, so I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: Let me ask you, in a statement that was included in the New York Times story, you were quoted as saying, quote, "It was a short introductory meeting. I asked Jared and Paul to stop by. We primarily discussed a program about the adoption of Russian children that was active and popular with American families years ago and was since ended by the Russian Government. But it was not a campaign issue at the time, and there was no followup. I was asked to attend the meeting by an acquaintance. I was not told the name of the person I would be meeting with beforehand." Was this the entirety of the statement that you issued? MR. TRUMP: I believe it was. I don't have them, you know, I don't have them in front of me, but I believe so. MR. SCHIFF: Now, this statement makes no mention of the purpose of the meeting, which was, as you understood it prior to going to the meeting, to obtain dirt on Hillary Clinton. Is that correct? MR. TRUMP: That's correct. MR. SCHIFF: Do you know whether that was your father's preference, that you issue a statement that excluded that? MR. TRUMP: I don't think I know. MR. FUTERFAS: If I may have a moment. [Discussion off the record.] MR. TRUMP: I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question? MR. SCHIFF: Yes. The statement makes no mention of the purpose of the meeting, which was to obtain derogatory information about Secretary Clinton. Was UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 113 it your father's desire that this information not be part of the statement? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. I know my father and his advisers preferred the shorter form of the statement, which I don't believe had that included. MR. SCHIFF: Did the longer form of the statement include information indicating that the purpose of the meeting was to obtain damaging information about Hillary Clinton or that was a part of the setup to the meeting? MR. TRUMP: I believe it did. MR. SCHIFF: Do you know why your father preferred the short version? MR. TRUMP: I believe it just brought up questions that weren't relevant, because while it appears optically bad, it wasn't actually what the meeting was about. In the end, they left it to me, and I decided that there is truth to that. There's no reason to talk about to The New York Times what the meeting wasn't actually about simply because that was the premise that got them in the door. MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss whether you thought that the true purpose of the meeting would ever be disclosed? MR. FUTERFAS: I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question? MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss with Hope Hicks or your father or anyone else whether you believed the true purpose of the meeting might ultimately be disclosed? MR. TRUMP: I don't -- I'm trying to remember. MR. FUTERFAS: Just a moment. [Discussion off the record.] MR. TRUMP: Yeah. I may have had that text conversation with Hope. I just don't have them in front of me, so -MR. SCHIFF: So you may have discussed with her whether this would UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 114 ultimately come out? MR. TRUMP: Yes, I believe so. MR. SCHIFF: And did she express an opinion on it? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: The part of the setup to the meeting that also discussed this as part of Russia and its government's support for your father, was that in the longer version of your statement? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: But that was excluded from what you made public? MR. FUTERFAS: You mean in the first -MR. TRUMP: In the first statement? MR. SCHIFF: Yes. MR. TRUMP: It was not in the first statement. MR. SCHIFF: Why was the decision made to exclude that from the statement? MR. TRUMP: Perhaps it just, again, brought up unnecessary potential questions that we didn't feel necessary to have to address with The New York Times. MR. SCHIFF: Wouldn't that have been pertinent to the public understanding of why the meeting took place? MR. TRUMP: I don't know that it was our obligation to give The New York Times anything. We could have not commented at all. MR. SCHIFF: Would you agree, though, that, given the meeting was about a completely different purpose, it was misleading to the public to suggest it was only about adoptions? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 115 MR. TRUMP: No. MR. FUTERFAS: Object to the form of the question. MR. TRUMP: I don't. The meeting was primarily about Russian adoptions and the Magnitsky Act. That's not what got them in the door, but that's what it ended up being about. MR. SCHIFF: Well, you make no mention in your statement of the Magnitsky Act, though, do you? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: Did Hope Hicks, in your exchange with her, discuss with you whether to mention the Magnitsky sanctions law? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe she did. MR. SCHIFF: Why didn't you acknowledge the other participants in the meeting in your statement? MR. TRUMP: Because in July of this year, if you put them all in this room, I wouldn't have been able to pick out anyone other than Goldstone. MR. SCHIFF: Your statement says, "I was asked to attend the meeting by an acquaintance but was not told the name of the person I would be meeting with beforehand." That suggests, does it not, that you were only meeting with one person? MR. TRUMP: I thought I was only meeting with the Russian lawyer. You know, then she brought a translator and apparently brought two other people. But I was not informed of anyone else coming to the meeting prior to them showing up. MR. SCHIFF: But at the time you issued the statement, you were aware of there were, in fact, multiple other parties in the meeting? MR. TRUMP: I think my point was that to me the meeting was so UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 116 insignificant, it was 20 minutes in a day filled with a lot of other stuff at a crazy, hectic time, I wouldn't -- I didn't pay it any mind. I didn't think anything about the meeting. I didn't think anything about it, frankly, from the minute that meeting concluded to pretty much this weekend in July. I wouldn't have given it another thought. So, again, there could have been 15 people in the meeting. I wouldn't have remembered. Five minutes. MR. SCHIFF: You would agree, though, that by stating that you were not told the name of the person you'd be meeting beforehand, you gave a misleading impression that that was the only party apart from your campaign that was present? MR. FUTERFAS: I object to the question. MR. TRUMP: No. MR. FUTERFAS: But I'll let him answer. MR. TRUMP: No, I don't. MR. SCHIFF: The Washington Post reported on July 31 of 2017 that the President personally dictated your July 8 statement. Is that accurate? MR. TRUMP: No, it's not. MR. SCHIFF: So the only input that your father gave, to the best of your knowledge, vis-à-vis the statement, was to choose the short version, not the long version? MR. TRUMP: That's my understanding through Hope, but I wasn't involved in exchanging drafts. MR. SCHIFF: Was this the same G20 meeting that your father attended where he would later acknowledge speaking to Putin about adoptions? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 117 MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall after the main G20 meeting there was a private meeting with your father and leaders of the G20, a private dinner? MR. TRUMP: I know there was a -- I read about a private dinner at the G20, yes. MR. SCHIFF: Did you also read that at that meeting the President left his seat next to the Japanese Prime Minister and joined Mr. Putin for a conversation? MR. TRUMP: At the same table? MR. SCHIFF: Yes. MR. TRUMP: Yes, I'd read that. MR. SCHIFF: And did you read also that he represented that he had discussed with Mr. Putin adoptions? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall reading that, no. MR. SCHIFF: Do you know why your father would have raised the topic of adoptions contemporaneous with your discussion with him about the statement? MR. TRUMP: I don't, and perhaps it was brought up by Mr. Putin. I don't know. I wasn't there. MR. SCHIFF: To your knowledge, was this an effort to portray the Trump Tower meeting about adoptions and nothing more? MR. FUTERFAS: May I ask, Congressman Schiff, if you could rephrase the question. I don't know what the "this" is in that sentence, in that question. MR. SCHIFF: To your knowledge, was the President representing that he discussed adoptions with Mr. Putin the continuation of an effort to portray the meeting you had at Trump Tower as about nothing more than adoptions? MR. FUTERFAS: I object, I'm sorry, on another ground. I think your UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 118 question just said the President represented. Could you rephrase the question one more time. I'm sorry. MR. SCHIFF: I'll restate the question. MR. FUTERFAS: Yeah. Thank you. MR. SCHIFF: To your knowledge, was the President's representation that he discussed adoptions with Putin part of an effort to communicate or reinforce the idea that your Trump Tower meeting was only about adoptions? MR. TRUMP: No, that's not my understanding at all. One minute. MR. SCHIFF: On June 14, The Washington Post reported the DNC had been hacked and attributed that hacking to the Russian Government. Rob Goldstone emailed Emin Agalarov that day with one of the press articles on the hacking and said in the email, quote, "Top story right now. Seems eerily weird based on our Trump Tower meeting last week with the Russian lawyers, et cetera." If we could show that email and article to Mr. Trump. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 119 [1:25 p.m.] MR. TRUMP: Okay. MR. SCHIFF: The article that Mr. Goldstone emails is an article about the Russians hacking the DNC emails. Is it not? MR. TRUMP: Yes, it is. MR. SCHIFF: I'm sorry? MR. TRUMP: Yes, it is. MR. SCHIFF: And Rob Goldstone is communicating -- this is after your Trump Tower meeting -- that this is eerily weird based on the Trump meeting last week with the Russian lawyers. Did it also strike you as a strange coincidence that the Russian hackers had stolen Dems' Trump files, that this story would come out right after your Trump Tower meeting? MR. TRUMP: I'm sorry, I didn't understand the part about damaged Trump files? MR. SCHIFF: Well, I'm just reading the headline of the article. But Mr. Goldstone thought it was "eerily weird" that it would be disclosed that Russian hackers had stolen Democratic files right after the meeting you had with the Russian lawyers, et cetera. Did that also strike you as a strange coincidence? MR. TRUMP: I don't even know that I saw this article, so it doesn't. MR. SCHIFF: You did become aware, though, as Mr. Goldstone did and much of the public, that in the week after your meeting it was disclosed that the Russians had hacked the DNC emails? MR. TRUMP: I don't know, actually. MR. SCHIFF: You don't remember being struck, as Rob Goldstone was, by UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 120 the timing of that, following your Trump Tower meeting? MR. FUTERFAS: My client has already answered that same question, and he's indicated he doesn't even recall this article at the time. If you could -- if I could ask you to rephrase your question, if you don't mind. MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall where you were when you first learned that the Russians may have hacked the DNC emails? MR. TRUMP: I don't, no. MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall about when it was? MR. TRUMP: I don't specifically, no. MR. SCHIFF: Was it shortly after your meeting at Trump Tower? MR. TRUMP: It may have been. I don't know. MR. CONAWAY: Time. Do you have questions? MR. ROONEY: I think we have -- about 1:45 -MR. CONAWAY: We have a series of four votes about 1:45, so we'll have to address that here shortly. But, Adam, 15 minutes. MR. SCHIFF: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So just to finish the question. I take it -- well, when you learned that the Russians had hacked the DNC computers or it had been reported that they had hacked the DNC computers after your Trump Tower meeting, did you make any connection or did it seem strange to you that that would be made public right after your meeting? MR. TRUMP: I don't know that I thought about it at all. MR. SCHIFF: On June 29, Rob Goldstein emailed Dan -- I'm sorry. MR. CONAWAY: Goldstone. You called him Goldstein. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 121 MR. SCHIFF: I'm sorry. What did I say, Stein? I'm sorry. I keep doing that. On June 29 of 2016, Rob Goldstone emailed Dan Scavino, copying you, Rhona, and Konstantine Sidorkov about Russia's largest social media network, VK, "offers Trump campaign message to over 2 million registered Russian American voters in the U.S." Mr. Goldstone says to Mr. Scavino, "Dan, I'm following up on an email awhile back of something I mentioned to Don and Paul Manafort during a meeting recently." Was that meeting at Trump Tower? MR. TRUMP: He may have mentioned it at our meeting. I don't recall meeting with Rob any other time -- again, other than the WGC tournament 2 years prior. So he may have mentioned something at the time. I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: Was this before the meeting or after the meeting? MR. TRUMP: I have no idea. MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall what he had to say about what this Russian Facebook could offer? MR. TRUMP: I only remember seeing the emails in preparation for this. MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall him discussing using the Russian Facebook to create a Vote Trump 2016 promotion? MR. TRUMP: I recall the email saying, yes, that there is a, I guess, 2 million Russian American voters that may be subscribed to this network that are legally in the U.S. and are registered voters, and they maybe wanted to do something social media-wise, which would be normal, I think. MR. SCHIFF: At this time, did you have any knowledge that the Russians UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 122 were using social media to help your father? MR. TRUMP: I did not. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Quigley. MR. QUIGLEY: So you referenced your discussions with the general would have been probably campaign-oriented. Is that correct? MR. TRUMP: Generally speaking, yes. MR. QUIGLEY: So in that vein, did you have any discussions about WikiLeaks or Julian Assange with him about -MR. TRUMP: None that I recall, no. MR. QUIGLEY: Nothing about your discussions or communications with WikiLeaks? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. QUIGLEY: Did you or your father ever discuss with General Flynn or Jared Kushner their December 1, 2016, meeting with the Russian ambassador at Trump Tower? MR. TRUMP: I did not. I can't speak for the others. MR. QUIGLEY: Were you present at that meeting? MR. TRUMP: I was not in the meeting, but it happened in my office. MR. QUIGLEY: Were you in the building at the time? MR. TRUMP: I was. The only reason I know of the meeting was because I either was dropping off my gym bag or picking up my gym bag on the way to the gym as it was going on. MR. QUIGLEY: So did you have any conversation with the Russian ambassador? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. I don't recall specifically even meeting him, UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 123 only that this was going on, but I may have shook his hand. I don't remember. MR. QUIGLEY: Did the general or Jared Kushner tell you about what took place in that meeting? MR. TRUMP: No, not that I recall. MR. QUIGLEY: You had no discussion with either one of them about what was said in that meeting? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so, no. MR. QUIGLEY: Did you see a readout of the meeting or any notes about what took place in the meeting? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. QUIGLEY: Did you or your father ever discuss with the general his December 22 calls with the Russian ambassador? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. QUIGLEY: Did your father ever talk to you about those calls with the -MR. TRUMP: I don't remember ever having a conversation with my father, no. MR. QUIGLEY: To your knowledge, did your father instruct General Flynn to make those calls? MR. TRUMP: I have no knowledge of the calls or any instructions. MR. QUIGLEY: Did you ever talk to Mr. Kushner about any such communications? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so, no. MR. QUIGLEY: Are you aware or did you have any conversation with your father about any calls or meetings that he had with the transition team about Security Counsel resolutions? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 124 MR. TRUMP: I'm not aware of any. MR. QUIGLEY: Did you or your father ever discuss with the general his December 29 call with the Russian ambassador in response to the Obama administration's imposition of sanctions? MR. TRUMP: Not that I'm aware of, no. MR. QUIGLEY: And you wouldn't have talked to your father about this? MR. TRUMP: I would not have. MR. QUIGLEY: So you have no knowledge as to whether your father instructed the general to make those calls? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. QUIGLEY: No knowledge whether anyone else would, Mr. Bannon, KT McFarland, Tom Bossert? MR. TRUMP: I have no knowledge of the calls that I can recollect or that even took place until I read about it two days ago. MR. QUIGLEY: Are you aware of any calls or meetings that your father had with his transition team about the Obama administration's sanctions and Russia's response? MR. TRUMP: No, none that I recall. MR. QUIGLEY: And finally, you had no conversations with your father about any of those matters? MR. TRUMP: Nothing I would have really spoken to him about. MR. QUIGLEY: Go ahead. MR. SCHIFF: I just have one additional question before I head it off to Mr. Swalwell. On July 11 of 2017, emailed his father with a UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 125 subject line, "dr jr," which I take it was referring to you. MR. TRUMP: DR, Jr.? MR. SCHIFF: DR. MR. TRUMP: DT? MR. SCHIFF: Well, it says "dr jr." MR. TRUMP: Can I see it? MR. SCHIFF: Oh, I'm sorry, it does say "dt," "dt jr." Attached to the email is the email you released publicly about the June 9 meeting. MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SCHIFF: The body of the email says, "Why did he release this email admitting to collusion?" This is Bate stamped 4 and 5. Do you know why either of the Kaveladzes, the one who was present in the meeting , would be under the impression that you were colluding? MR. TRUMP: No, I don't. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Swalwell. MR. SWALWELL: Thank you. Mr. Trump, you stated a couple of times today -- a number of times today -- that you do not recall particular details with respect to the June 9 meeting, but you are quite certain that you did not tell your father, prior to the meeting that it occurred. Is that correct? MR. TRUMP: I believe that's correct, yes. MR. SWALWELL: And just to also clarify, you are certain that you did not tell your father between the June 9 meeting and up until the point that the statement was made in July anything about the meeting. I just want to make sure we're certain about that. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 126 MR. TRUMP: I'm certain I don't recall ever doing that, correct. MR. SWALWELL: Well, you're certain you don't recall is different than you're certain it didn't happen. MR. TRUMP: I never said I'm certain it didn't happen. I said I don't recall ever having those conversations with my father. MR. SWALWELL: So it could have happened? MR. TRUMP: Anything is possible, but I doubt it. MR. SWALWELL: Well, I'm just trying to focus on what could have happened. And it sounds like, just as you're saying it could not have happened, it also equally could have happened? MR. TRUMP: I believe I would remember a conversation like that with my father, and I also would not bring my father something that I believed to be a waste of time. I've learned that through many years of working with him the hard way. MR. SWALWELL: You're certain that, following the June 9 meeting, you did not talk to Mr. Goldstone ever again about the June 9 meeting? MR. TRUMP: I believe that's accurate, yes. MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever talk to a Paula Shughart about the June 9 meeting? MR. TRUMP: Not to my recollection, no. MR. SWALWELL: Does that mean that you could have or that you did not? MR. TRUMP: Paula Shughart used to run the Miss Universe organization. I don't believe that even during that time, I'm not sure, she doesn't work with us anymore, but it's just not something I would talk to a person that ran Miss Universe about. MR. SWALWELL: She worked with Mr. Goldstone? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 127 MR. TRUMP: She worked with Mr. Goldstone prior to all of that, in '13, bringing the Miss Universe pageant to Moscow, yes. MR. SWALWELL: And the same goes to Ms. Rachel Frommer (ph). Did you tell her or seek to follow up with her about the June 9 meeting with respect to Mr. Goldstone or any information that she could have given you? MR. TRUMP: I don't know who that is. MR. SWALWELL: Okay. You stated earlier that WikiLeaks is an opportunistic organization. Do you remember saying that to us? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And you would agree that with respect to what WikiLeaks had to offer, you were an opportunistic campaign? MR. TRUMP: I believe anything they put out publicly that was being picked up by, arguably, every media outlet in the world, yes, I was there. MR. SWALWELL: Now, you tracked and followed WikiLeaks pretty closely throughout the campaign. Is that right? MR. TRUMP: No more so than I did the other major news agencies. MR. SWALWELL: And you were aware that on June 12, 2016, Julian Assange had announced on Twitter, an account that you followed, that he had new information about Hillary Clinton's emails. Do you remember that? MR. TRUMP: I don't know if I followed Julian Assange at that time. I know that I followed WikiLeaks at that time. So I don't know. MR. SWALWELL: Do you remember on June 12, 2016, when WikiLeaks announced, via Julian Assange, that it had had new damaging emails on Hillary Clinton? MR. TRUMP: I don't remember that specifically, but it would not surprise UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 128 me. MR. SWALWELL: You produced to the committee direct messages with WikiLeaks' official Twitter account spanning from September 20, 2016, through July 11, 2017. And Mr. Chair, I would like to submit those Twitter direct messages for the record as I believe would be exhibit 1. They are Bate stamped DJTJR01265-74. MR. CONAWAY: Without objection. [Trump Exhibit No. 1 Was marked for identification.] MR. SWALWELL: On September 20, 2016, Mr. Trump, WikiLeaks sent you a direct message. Do you remember that? MR. TRUMP: On September 20. Could I see them, please? MR. SWALWELL: Yes. MR. TRUMP: Thank you. MR. SWALWELL: That's correct, that September 20, 2016, WikiLeaks sent you a direct message? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SWALWELL: And it's your testimony to the committee today that your production of your communications with WikiLeaks is a complete record of any communications you had with WikiLeaks ever. Is that right? MR. TRUMP: Yes, that's correct. MR. SWALWELL: So September 20, 2016, was the first direct message that WikiLeaks had sent to you? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. SWALWELL: Did they -- had they, prior to September 2016, ever UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 129 communicated with you in any other form? MR. TRUMP: Not that I'm aware of. MR. SWALWELL: WikiLeaks wrote, "A PAC run anti-Trump site 'putintrump.org' is about to launch. The PAC is a recycled pro-Iraq war PAC. We guessed the password. It is 'putintrump.' See 'About' for who is behind it. Any comments?" MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SWALWELL: And you responded: "Off the record I don't know who that is but I'll ask around. Thanks." You wrote that in response to WikiLeaks. Is that correct? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. SWALWELL: Your response suggests a familiarity with the WikiLeaks and this account. Now, when you stated "off the record," was it your intent for WikiLeaks not to publicly disclose that it was in communication with you. MR. TRUMP: First of all, I don't believe my response indicates a familiarity. I respond "off the record" as I would to any number of media outlets or media personalities that contact me this way, as I would with Jake Tapper or Katy Tur, any number of the people that contacted me on a regular basis. So I responded to them as I would any other media outlet. I hadn't heard about it, but I would ask around. MR. SWALWELL: Why did you respond "off the record" to WikiLeaks? MR. TRUMP: Because I look at them as a media outlet, and I would not have wanted any response that I gave them to be public. MR. SWALWELL: Meaning that you would not want WikiLeaks to make it UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 130 public that they were in communication with you. Is that right? MR. TRUMP: Meaning I wouldn't want -- if I had a response or if I had information, I wouldn't want that to be public unless I wanted it to be public. It's how I would respond to any requests from a journalist making an initial outreach. MR. SWALWELL: And at this point, you had not told anyone publicly yourself that you were in contact with WikiLeaks. Is that correct? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. SWALWELL: And you wrote this response, is that right, it wasn't somebody else used your Twitter account? MR. TRUMP: That's correct. MR. SWALWELL: Has anyone else ever used your Twitter account? MR. TRUMP: Sure. MR. SWALWELL: Well, can we agree that the WikiLeaks correspondence at each point, from the receipt to the response, is you writing? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SWALWELL: We've reviewed your Twitter account, and we found 180 tweets of yours between September 4, 2016, 2 weeks before WikiLeaks direct messaged you, until as recently as November 13, 2017. And I'd like to submit for the record, Mr. Chairman, exhibit 2, which is a compilation of public tweets that refer in some way to WikiLeaks. MR. CONAWAY: Without objection. Yeah, we have a copy of that. [Trump Exhibit No. 2 Was marked for identification.] MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Trump, on September 21, you wrote an email titled "WikiLeaks" to several members of the campaign team, Kellyanne Conway, Steve UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 131 Bannon, Jared Kushner, David Bossie, and Brad Parscale. In the email, you stated: "Guys, I got a weird Twitter DM from WikiLeaks. See below. I tried the password, and it works. In the 'about' section they reference 'contains the next pic in terms of who is behind it.' Not sure if this is anything, but it seems like it's really WikiLeaks asking me, as I follow them, and it is a DM. Do you know the people mentioned and what the conspiracy they are looking for could be. These are just screen shots, but it's a fully built out page claiming to be a PAC. Let me know your thoughts and if we want to look into it." Were those your words to the team in that email? MR. TRUMP: I believe so. MR. SWALWELL: Why did you choose individuals that you put on that email? MR. TRUMP: I wanted to see if other people high up in the campaign had any understanding of what this supposed PAC was about. MR. SWALWELL: Did anyone respond? MR. TRUMP: I believe Brad Parscale responded. MR. SWALWELL: What did he say? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. You'd have to show me the emails. One minute, sir. MR. SWALWELL: Now, WikiLeaks mentioned a website. Is that right? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SWALWELL: And you logged into that website. Is that correct? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SWALWELL: And you entered, as you logged into the website, the password that WikiLeaks had privately given you through a direct message. Is UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 132 that correct? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SWALWELL: And you logged into that website without having authorization from that website to use that password. Is that correct? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SWALWELL: Did anyone affiliated with putintrump contact you and give you that password? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SWALWELL: You don't know if anyone from putintrump.org gave you that password? MR. TRUMP: I don't know if WikiLeaks was part of putintrump. But so you know, they sent me this at 11:59 p.m. on 9/20/2016. At 11:07 p.m., 1 hour before, they put this same information, as well as the password, out publicly on their Twitter page to their 5.3 million followers. MR. SWALWELL: WikiLeaks did not tell you that they were responsible for putintrump.org, though. Is that correct? MR. TRUMP: That's correct. MR. SWALWELL: So, at least from what WikiLeaks had represented to you, you were logging into putintrump.org without putintrump.org's authorization. Is that right? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. CONAWAY: All right. Time. Trey. MR. GOWDY. "Guys, I got a weird Twitter DM from WikiLeaks." What did you mean by "weird"? Why did it strike you as being weird? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 133 MR. TRUMP: It was just sort of -- it was odd that they reached out about some, you know, again, recycled PAC, but, you know, again, at this time, I didn't know who was doing what and where. They're asking me for comment behind it. They're telling me it's about to go live. I wanted to see what, if anything, we knew about it and who was saying what. MR. GOWDY: Is this the first contact you had ever had with WikiLeaks? MR. TRUMP: Yes, I believe it is. MR. GOWDY: So you'd never reached out to them before, and to your knowledge, they never reached out to you before? MR. TRUMP: That's correct. MR. GOWDY: I want to go back to your response, "off the record." If there is any group in the world that would understand what that phrase means and why it was written, it'd be the people in this room. MR. TRUMP: I would think so. MR. GOWDY: So for those who may not have used that phrase in the last 30 seconds, what did you mean by that? MR. TRUMP: I mean, I wasn't going to reply to something, a question asked by a media organization, without any knowledge until I could ascertain what, if anything, there was to reply about. It was clear that there wasn't anything to reply about. MR. GOWDY: Again, you and I have different perspectives on WikiLeaks, but your perspective is the only one that matters today, and you viewed them as a media outlet. MR. TRUMP: That's correct. MR. GOWDY: Had other media outlets or personalities contacted you in UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 134 the past and you also said "off the record"? MR. TRUMP: Almost all of them. MR. GOWDY: Well, give us a sense of who that might be so no one is left with the impression that you responded to WikiLeaks somehow differently than you would CNN or ABC. MR. TRUMP: Maggie Haberman of The New York Times, Tom Hamburger (ph) of The Washington Post, Jake Tapper of CNN, Katy Tur. I imagine anyone that you've seen on TV or read about in newspapers over the last 2 years has probably, over the last same period of time, reached out to me about comment for something or for some sort of inside baseball as to what was going on. MR. GOWDY: And it strikes me that the phrase "off the record" could be used for at least two reasons, and maybe more than two. Number one, you could be authorized to speak on the matter, but you seek anonymity. Or you could not be authorized to speak on the matter. In other words, your official role and responsibilities would not include speaking on behalf of the campaign. MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. GOWDY: Were you a spokesperson, official spokesperson, on behalf of the campaign? MR. TRUMP: I imagine I could have filled that role. I don't know that I ever had an official capacity that way. But there are times I would have certainly, you know, jumped in and been an official spokesperson. MR. GOWDY: All right. I want to go back to your response. And, again, the distribution list includes Brad Parscale, who, if memory serves me correctly, was a social media expert? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 135 MR. TRUMP: Brad Parscale was, you know, data operation as well as social media. Dan Scavino was social media. The other names, you probably know. MR. GOWDY: Kellyanne Conway would be the Kellyanne Conway that we think that is. Steve Bannon, was he in an official role with the campaign at the time. MR. TRUMP: I believe he was at that time, yes. MR. GOWDY: Jared Kushner would be your brother-in-law and also someone involved in the campaign. Dave Bossie? MR. TRUMP: Another higher campaign person. MR. GOWDY: All right. So, "Guys, I got a weird Twitter DM from WikiLeaks. See below. Tried the password, and it works, and the 'about' section they reference contains the next pic in terms of who is behind it. Not sure if this is anything." Aside from the plain language of "not sure if this is anything," what did you mean by that? MR. TRUMP: I imagine the words speak for themselves. MR. GOWDY: I would think so. "But it seems like it's really WikiLeaks asking me, as I follow them, and it is a DM." What did you mean by that? MR. TRUMP: If you follow someone and they follow you, you can exchange direct messages, almost like having, you know, an email account one way or the other. If you don't follow someone, you can maybe send them and there's another -- but they were -- they would have been able to reach out to me. It's a verified account, so it appeared to me like it was possibly WikiLeaks. But I UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 136 had no knowledge of the question that they were asking, so I asked if others perhaps knew about this supposed PAC. MR. GOWDY: Which explains your next question, "Do you know the people mentioned and what the conspiracy they are looking for could be?" MR. TRUMP: The people mentioned on the website? MR. GOWDY: I assume that's what you meant when you said that. MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. GOWDY: Did you know the people mentioned? MR. TRUMP: I did not know them myself. I wanted to see if they did. MR. GOWDY: All right. "These are just screen shots, but it's a fully built out page claiming to be a PAC. Let me know your thoughts, and if we want to look into it." And it looks like you got someone response to that email. Is that right? MR. TRUMP: That's correct. MR. GOWDY: That was from Brad. "We should be ready for this with our own page then so searches come to us. Crazy." I think you probably know why this line of questioning is being pursued. It is, again, an effort to determine whether or not there was any coordination with WikiLeaks related to the dissemination of information that they may have acquired. MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. GOWDY: So I'm going to ask you again. Was there any collusion, coordination, conspiracy between the Trump campaign and WikiLeaks to release and/or time the release of any of the ill-gotten gains? MR. TRUMP: No, there was not. MR. GOWDY: And prior to this reach out from WikiLeaks, had you had UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 137 any contact with them? MR. TRUMP: Again, not to my recollection, no. MR. GOWDY: Did you direct anyone else to have contact with WikiLeaks? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so, no. MR. CONAWAY: It's time. MR. GOWDY: Well, I guess we got to go vote. MR. CONAWAY: All right. We have four votes, which will take about 45 minutes. Depending on what you'd prefer to do, we can leave staff to finish off questioning and we can come back, or if you want to break to go get a bite to eat, you can do that. So what would you all prefer? MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Chairman, I would strongly urge that we not continue in the absence of members. I think all of our members want to be here. This is one of the more significant witnesses that we are going to have. So I would suggest we just take a lunch break and resume after votes. MR. CONAWAY: All right. So we will start immediately when I get back, and I'm coming right back, so no dillydallying around after votes. MR. SCHIFF: Have you ever known me to dillydally, Mr. Chairman? MR. CONAWAY: Just going on the record to say no dillydally. We can get you in and out of the building, whatever you'd like to. MR. TRUMP: We'll take it from there. We'll be okay. Thank you. [Recess.] UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 138 [2:35 p.m.] MR. CONAWAY: We are done. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Swalwell. MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Trump, welcome back. You had last referenced with respect to WikiLeaks that you had equated contact from WikiLeaks to, it was your example, Jake Tapper, Katy Tur, or Tom Hamburg. Do you remember that exchange? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SWALWELL: And it is your testimony to this committee that you consider them all equally journalists? MR. TRUMP: I considered WikiLeaks a media outlet, yes. MR. SWALWELL: Had either of those individuals you referenced, Tapper, Tur, Hamburger, Heileman, had any of them or any other journalists ever offered you login information to a website that you did not have prior authority to access? Was WikiLeaks the first time that ever occurred from a journalist? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. SWALWELL: You are familiar with Mike Pompeo. You know who he is? MR. TRUMP: Yes, I know him. MR. SWALWELL: Are you familiar that on April 13, 2017, Mike Pompeo stated, in remarks to the Center for Strategic and International Studies, "It is time to call out WikiLeaks for what it really is, a nonstate hostile intelligence service, often abetted by state-like actors like Russia." Did you hear those comments. MR. TRUMP: I am sorry, what was the date of that? MR. SWALWELL: That was April 13, 2017. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 139 MR. TRUMP: I have read that since in preparation for this. Obviously, I could not have heard it at the time that I received this because it was, you know -MR. SWALWELL: Do you agree or disagree with that statement? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. I really don't know that I have an opinion on it. MR. SWALWELL: You at least agree that he was labeling them as a nonhostile intelligence service. MR. FUTERFAS: In April of 2017? MR. SWALWELL: You agree in April of 2017 he labeled them as a nonhostile -MR. TRUMP: I agree that he labeled them that, yes. MR. SWALWELL: All right. Now, going back to your interaction with WikiLeaks, you sent around an email on September 21st about the login information they had shared, and you stated the only email response back was from Brad Parscale. Did you interact with anyone else on that email chain in a non-email form, whether in-person conversation or by phone? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. SWALWELL: And that's something you would recall if it had occurred? MR. TRUMP: I may have, meaning I may recall it, but I don't. MR. SWALWELL: Did you discuss this WikiLeaks approach with anyone who was not on the email chain? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SWALWELL: Did anyone express to you any concerns that the approach to you was from WikiLeaks? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 140 MR. SWALWELL: Did you tell your father about the September 20th direct-message outreach from WikiLeaks to you? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SWALWELL: When you say "you don't believe so," that's something you would remember if you had? MR. TRUMP: Probably. But it's also something I wouldn't really speak to my father about. MR. SWALWELL: Why not? MR. TRUMP: It just doesn't seem very significant. MR. SWALWELL: Your father is somebody who has talked about WikiLeaks publicly, right? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SWALWELL: And you had at this point been contacted directly by WikiLeaks, right? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. SWALWELL: And it's your testimony that that didn't seem relevant as to something that you would talk to your father about? MR. TRUMP: Them making contact about something like this was not something that I would speak to him about. MR. SWALWELL: On October 3, 2016, WikiLeaks direct messaged you again asking that, quote-unquote, you guys comment on or push a story that WikiLeaks' Twitter page had promoted earlier that day. WikiLeaks' tweet linking to a page on TruePundit.com said Hillary Clinton on Assange. Quote, "Can't we just drown this guy?" And that is Bates stamped DJTJR01265. And if you would like to look at that, or if you have it already, to refresh your recollection. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 141 MR. TRUMP: Sure. Yes, I have it. MR. SWALWELL: And you responded, "Already did that early today." When you said already did that earlier today, are you talking about retweeting? MR. TRUMP: Yes, I am. MR. SWALWELL: And you had in fact retweeted that story about TruePundit.com. Is that right? MR. TRUMP: I believe so, yes. MR. SWALWELL: And when you said already did that earlier today, did you mean to say that you had done it because you saw the WikiLeaks DM, or that you had done it independently? MR. TRUMP: No, that I had done it independently. Anything, again, that they had sent me they had made public first, and so I saw it before I ever got a DM from them and said, Hey, this is interesting, I am going to retweet it. MR. SWALWELL: You went on to say in that October 3rd response, it's amazing what she can get away with. Who is "she"? MR. TRUMP: I presume if they are talking about Hillary Clinton, I am probably responding about that. MR. SWALWELL: Okay. What did you mean by it's amazing what she can get away with? MR. TRUMP: Well, I think if my father should say something like we should just drown Assange, I think that would be a big deal in the press, and this wasn't getting that much pickup other than through a smaller website, like a TruePundit. MR. SWALWELL: And you also, from the reading of this, it seems believed that she had gotten away with other statements or offenses besides just UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 142 this she should drown Assange. MR. TRUMP: I don't want to speculate what I was thinking at the time, but perhaps. MR. SWALWELL: Well, what were you thinking at the time? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. I just said I already did that, and I'm not surprised that she could do something like that and not have it be a real story. MR. SWALWELL: Do you believe that Hillary Clinton had gotten away with a bunch of stuff? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SWALWELL: You went on to say, what's behind this Wednesday leak I keep reading about, question mark. Do you see that? MR. TRUMP: I do. MR. SWALWELL: What was your interest in the Wednesday leak? MR. TRUMP: They had been teasing publicly, you know, Podesta number 76, or I don't know what number it was, but they were leaking these things out on a weekly, if not biweekly, sometimes more basis. They were teasing it that, you know, this is another big one. I simply asked a question about what is it that I am reading about? MR. SWALWELL: And you agree that you were demonstrating with your response to WikiLeaks that you were interested in leaks? MR. TRUMP: I was interested in the content that they were putting out, as was every media outlet in the world at the time. MR. SWALWELL: Did you get a response from WikiLeaks as to your question about the leak? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 143 MR. SWALWELL: Between October 3 and October 9 you posted several tweets promoting WikiLeaks and Guccifer 2.0 leaks of Clinton emails. And I believe they are in the record. But are you familiar that on October 7, 2016, the Intelligence Community assessed that WikiLeaks and DCLeaks were working with Russian intelligence services? Do you remember that analysis? MR. TRUMP: I don't remember that. MR. SWALWELL: Are you familiar with that analysis? MR. TRUMP: I am not, no. MR. SWALWELL: Do you agree that WikiLeaks and DCLeaks, as our Intelligence Community has said, was working with Russian intelligence services? MR. TRUMP: I have no idea. MR. SWALWELL: And your testimony to this committee today is that you, at the time, had no knowledge that this assessment was made by our Intelligence Community? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall knowing that, no. MR. SWALWELL: But if you did have knowledge and you continued to retweet someone who was assessed to have been working with the Russian intelligence agency, that's something you probably would remember, right? MR. TRUMP: Probably. MR. SWALWELL: So your testimony is that your retweeting of WikiLeaks and the Guccifer 2.0 leaks was without the knowledge that they were assessed to have been working with Russia's intelligence services? MR. TRUMP: I believe that's correct, but I don't recall knowing otherwise. MR. SWALWELL: Did you tell your father that WikiLeaks had asked you on October 3, 2016, to retweet the TruePundit.com story? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 144 MR. TRUMP: I don't believe I did. MR. SWALWELL: Did you tell your father -- and again, when you say "I don't believe I did," are you saying you don't recall or -MR. TRUMP: I don't recall ever having a conversation with my father asking him to retweet something that I had retweeted or retweet something that someone had asked me to. Could it be possible? Yes. Would it be very likely? No. Just not based on the way I communicate with my father. MR. SWALWELL: And so just to tie this up, from September 20th, the first time that WikiLeaks contacted you and you wrote back, to now October 3, when you are contacted again by WikiLeaks and wrote back, your testimony is that between the 20th and the 3rd you never spoke directly by phone or any other communication to your father about your communications with WikiLeaks? MR. TRUMP: That's my testimony in terms of I don't recall ever speaking to him about it, certainly not during those time frames, frankly at any other time. MR. SWALWELL: So from October 7 -- just on October 7, you actually retweeted five different tweets relating to WikiLeaks and Guccifer 2.0. Why? MR. FUTERFAS: Can we see them first? Are they part of this exhibit? MR. SWALWELL: Yeah. MR. FUTERFAS: Here it is. This is exhibit number -2. MR. FUTERFAS: Exhibit No. 2? MR. TRUMP: Can you give me the dates again? MR. SWALWELL: Sure. On October 7, the same day that the Intelligence Community assessed that WikiLeaks was working with Russian intelligence services, you retweeted five different tweets that related to WikiLeaks UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 145 or were by WikiLeaks. MR. TRUMP: Yeah. I am looking at October 7. So can you repeat the question? MR. SWALWELL: So on October 7, you had a retweet from at WikiLeaks that said, secret paid Clinton speech. Quote, "You need to have a public position and a private position on policy. Hashtag Podesta emails." Do you remember retweeting that WikiLeaks post? MR. TRUMP: I don't remember retweeting it, but I don't have reason to believe that I didn't. MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And you went on to retweet an at CNN politics story about WikiLeaks posts, followed by another at WikiLeaks retweet with respect to hashtag Podesta emails, followed by a FOX News story linking to WikiLeaks, and then followed by a Twitchy Team story about John Podesta's emails and an October surprise, five tweets on October 7, the same date that the Intelligence Community assessed WikiLeaks was working with Russian intelligence services. And my question was why. Why did you retweet so many WikiLeaks stories that day? MR. TRUMP: Well, I retweeted FOX News and CNN. Like I said, the major media outlets of the world were covering this story. I must have thought it was relevant and, you know, newsworthy enough. I probably have retweeted things a lot less significant than that. MR. SWALWELL: Did you discuss or coordinate your promotion of these materials on October 7 with your father? MR. TRUMP: No, not that I recall. MR. SWALWELL: How about anyone else on the campaign? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 146 MR. TRUMP: No, I pretty much do my own social. MR. SWALWELL: On October 10th, 2016, your father, candidate Trump, stated at a rally in Pennsylvania, that he loved WikiLeaks. Do you remember that? MR. TRUMP: I remember reading about it after the fact. I don't know if I was there. MR. SWALWELL: Prior to that speech, did you talk to him at all about WikiLeaks? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SWALWELL: Did he ever tell you after the speech why he said he loved WikiLeaks? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. SWALWELL: On October 12th, 2016, at 8:31 a.m., WikiLeaks -MR. TRUMP: I am sorry, what was the date again? MR. SWALWELL: October 12th. October 12th, 8:31 a.m., WikiLeaks alerts you to the release of -- you want to catch up? MR. TRUMP: Yes. Okay. I am good. MR. SWALWELL: October 12, 8:31 a.m., WikiLeaks alerts you to their release of Podesta emails part four, and sends you this longer message, "Hey Donald, great to see you and your dad talking about our publications. Strongly suggest your dad tweets this link if he mentions us wlsearch.tk. I.e. you guys can get all your followers digging through the content. There is many great stories there the press are missing and we're sure some of your followers will find them. MR. TRUMP: Uh-huh. MR. SWALWELL: Did you see that direct message from WikiLeaks? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 147 MR. TRUMP: I may have. I don't recall seeing it. I don't reply to it. But I very well may have. MR. SWALWELL: Well, at this point, you had at least responded to two prior WikiLeaks messages to you with a response. Is that correct? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. SWALWELL: And your testimony today is you don't know if you saw this message or not? MR. TRUMP: I may have seen it. I don't remember seeing it. I have obviously read it since then. I don't know if I saw it at the time or later. MR. SWALWELL: Did you tell your father about this October 12, 8:31 message from WikiLeaks? MR. TRUMP: No, I don't believe so. MR. SWALWELL: How are you so certain? MR. TRUMP: Well, I was in Europe that morning, so it's not -- and I have no phone records of communications with my father, so I probably didn't. MR. SWALWELL: So I believe, and you can correct me, but that the October 12 direct message was 8:31 Eastern time. So it would have been a couple hours later in Europe. Is that right? MR. TRUMP: I don't know that. If I was in Europe, that could be 8:31 wherever I was locally. MR. SWALWELL: Fifteen minutes later, 8;46 a.m., your father tweets the following from his account: "Very little pickup by the dishonest media of incredible information provided by WikiLeaks. So dishonest. Rigged system, exclamation point." Did you have any prior knowledge that this tweet was going to be sent by your father? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 148 MR. TRUMP: No. I don't recall any. MR. SWALWELL: Where was your father on October 12th in the morning? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SWALWELL: Have you observed your father tweeting before? MR. TRUMP: Yeah. MR. SWALWELL: Meaning you have seen the phone in his hand, the tweets being written, and it being sent? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SWALWELL: Did you observe this during the campaign? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever observe a pattern or practice as to how tweets would be composed, reviewed, and then sent, or was there no pattern or practice? MR. TRUMP: I don't know if there was a pattern. Sometimes he would dictate it to someone, sometimes he would do it himself. I don't know that there was a pattern. MR. SWALWELL: To your knowledge, who else had access to your father's Twitter account throughout the campaign. MR. TRUMP: I imagine Dan Scavino would have had it as head of the social media operation. MR. SWALWELL: Anyone else that you know of as having access? MR. TRUMP: No, not during the campaign. MR. SWALWELL: At 9:23 a.m. you retweeted on October 12th another WikiLeaks story, "RT at WikiLeaks: Hillary Clinton reads from script during interview. Hashtag Podesta emails." UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 149 MR. TRUMP: I am sorry, what was the date of that again? MR. SWALWELL: October 12, 9:23 a.m. Do you see that? MR. TRUMP: Yep. 9:23? MR. SWALWELL: Yes. MR. TRUMP: Okay. MR. SWALWELL: Why did you retweet that one? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. I guess I thought it was relevant at the time. MR. SWALWELL: Did you talk to your father at all prior to that retweet? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. MR. FUTERFAS: I am sorry to interrupt. Are you getting -- do we know whether this time is Eastern Standard Time or some other time linked to his phone, because he was in Europe on this date, so -- just point of clarification. MR. SWALWELL: Counsel, it's a fair question, and I will make sure we clear it up before we end the interview. A lot of this production was provided by your client. MR. CONAWAY: We will swap sides. We have got some questions. Good afternoon. As mentioned, I am a member of the majority staff, and just had a couple things I wanted to follow up on. EXAMINATION BY Q With respect to your direct messages with WikiLeaks, I believe it has been your testimony that you viewed them analogous or similar to other press outlets with which you were interacting. Just now, Mr. Swalwell made reference to the fact that the Intelligence Community, both under President Obama and UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 150 President Trump, may have had a different assessment of WikiLeaks, and that assessment was made public on October 7, 2016, and then again with Director Pompeo's comment in April. But I just want to focus my questions on what your knowledge and thinking was at the time. So the first, as we have discussed, the first exchange you have with WikiLeaks in your direct messages is they send you a direct message on September 20th, and then you send them a response on September 21st. Is that correct? A That's correct. Q And at the time that you had this interaction with them, did you, based on what you knew, have any knowledge or belief that WikiLeaks was acting on behalf of the Russian Government or the Russian intelligence services? A No. Q And at this time on September 20 and 21, did you have any knowledge or belief that the source of the materials that WikiLeaks was publicly exposing was the Russian Government or Russian intelligence services? A No. Q Same questions for the second exchange you had with them on October 3, which is on October 3 did you have any knowledge or belief that WikiLeaks was acting on behalf of the Russian Government intelligence services? A I did not. Q And on October 3 did you have any knowledge or belief that the source of the material WikiLeaks was publicly releasing was the Russian Government or Russian intelligence services? A I did not. Q And I believe that your October 3 response is the -- the October 3, UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 151 2016, response is the last direct message exchange or direct communication you had with WikiLeaks. Is that correct? A Correct. October 3. Q And note here that they sent you a variety of messages thereafter to which you did not respond. Is that correct? A Correct. Q And do you recall the reason, if there was a particular reason, why you didn't respond at all after October 3? A I don't recall a specific reason, but I know they started asking me for things that I wasn't going to give them. So I didn't feel the need to respond to those. Q Then just one question regarding the email chain to set up the Trump Tower meeting on June 9, 2016, which we have discussed extensively, or I guess one issue. Now, as Mr. Gowdy noted earlier, neither campaign had a monopoly on seeking derogatory information on their opponents from Russian sources, as has been subsequently publicly revealed? A I believe that's correct. Q But the thing that kind of stuck out to me when I read this email chain, so I don't want to focus on the incriminating Hillary and her dealings with Russia that Mr. Gowdy asked about, I just want to focus on the fact that the information is, quote, "part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump." So to the best of your recollection, what, if anything, was your reaction to that particular piece of the purported premise of the meeting? A I don't know that I had a reaction. Again, I knew it was from Rob Goldstone, and I wasn't aware of any support being offered from the Russian UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 152 Government. So it didn't mean much to me. Q And even given that you weren't sure exactly what you were in for based on this premise, as you testified, given your prior understanding and dealings with Mr. Goldstone, even given that it was we could say a somewhat dubious or uncertain source, did that portion of the premise give you any pause such that you consulted with anyone else as to whether you ought to take that meeting, even not knowing -A No. I don't believe I consulted with anyone at the time. I know what he wrote. I also knew it was Rob, and I had no way of validating what he was saying, so I don't know that I thought all that much about it. That's all I have, sir. MR. CONAWAY: All right. Adam, 15? MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Swalwell. MR. SWALWELL: You stated earlier, Mr. Trump, to counsel, that WikiLeaks was contacting you and asking for things that you weren't going to give them. Do you remember that line of questioning? MR. TRUMP: I do. MR. SWALWELL: Is that your independent recollection that you independently remember them asking you for things that you weren't going to give them, or is that your recollection after reviewing the production that you have provided us? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. I probably remember both. The one that struck out to me was asking for -- I believe they asked somewhere in here for my father's tax return. And I wasn't going to leak them our tax returns. It's 20,000 -- it's a rather large document that I wasn't going to give to WikiLeaks. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 153 MR. SWALWELL: And you were -- do you recall Mr. Kushner's statement about the June 9 email? He issued a public statement. Do you remember reviewing that? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Kushner's public statement references that he was approached on October 30th via email by what appeared to be spam to him in effort to seek your father's tax returns in exchange for a ransom, or that they had -- I am sorry, that they had -- this organization had your father's tax returns, and that they were going to release them unless Mr. Kushner paid a ransom. Do you recall Mr. Kushner stating that in a public statement? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Kushner ever talk to you about any email that he had received like that around the tax returns? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. He may have, but I probably would have remembered that. MR. SWALWELL: Now, the WikiLeaks reference to your father's tax returns also referenced that by leaking your father's tax returns, WikiLeaks would be perceived as being fair and balanced, something to that extent. Is that right? MR. TRUMP: I would have to look at it, but -MR. SWALWELL: When I say "fair and balanced," WikiLeaks references that they were perceived by the public as conducting one-sided attacks against Hillary Clinton, but that if they were releasing your father's tax returns, the public would look at them as being more objective. Do you recall a post directly to you from WikiLeaks in that tone? MR. TRUMP: I know I read it. I don't recall if I got into that level of detail, UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 154 but I may have. MR. SWALWELL: And do you agree with that characterization by WikiLeaks that without a leak of your father's tax returns that the public record at least would be that WikiLeaks, the information they were disseminating was one-sided, and it was primarily anti-Hillary Clinton? MR. TRUMP: I agree that it was more one-sided, but we also hadn't had a track record in public life or public service that our opponent had at the time, so that wouldn't surprise me. MR. SWALWELL: On November 8, Election Day, WikiLeaks direct messaged you again with a proposal. "Hi, Don. If your father loses we think it is much more interesting if he does not, in all caps, concede and spends time challenging, all caps, the media and other types of rigging that occurred." Are you familiar with that message from WikiLeaks? MR. TRUMP: What was the date of that? MR. SWALWELL: That was November 8, 2016. MR. TRUMP: Okay. What was the question? MR. SWALWELL: Did you read that message from WikiLeaks on November 8? MR. TRUMP: I don't know if I read it on November 8, but I've read it since. MR. SWALWELL: Was it common practice during the campaign that you would check your Twitter account not just for tweets that others had posted, but direct messages that were sent to you? MR. TRUMP: It was common practice for me to check my Twitter account. I wouldn't often or all that often check my DMs. Some would go unanswered for days, probably. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 155 MR. SWALWELL: If we were to review your direct messages on either October 12th, when you did not respond to a WikiLeaks direct message, or on November 8, would we find that you were active on direct message those days? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. I guess November 8 was Election Day, so I may very well have been active. MR. SWALWELL: Your testimony is that you don't -MR. TRUMP: I have no recollection of being active on there. I was very active on social media that day, but I also had other people operating that while I was on TV, on radio, et cetera. So -MR. SWALWELL: In this direct message of November 8, WikiLeaks using a phrase "rigging." They go on to say the discussion about the rigging may be transformative as it exposes media corruption, primary corruption, PAC corruption, et cetera. You are familiar with your father's statements publicly prior to election day that the election might be rigged? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SWALWELL: What was the genesis of the rigging claims that your father was making? MR. TRUMP: Well, you know, whatever he has put out there publicly would be that. I don't recall having specific conversations with him about it. But he believed that there was some injustice, generally speaking, in the system. MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever share with him this November 8, 2016, WikiLeaks direct message? MR. TRUMP: No. We were all very busy on November 8. I certainly would not have done that. MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever share with him any WikiLeaks UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 156 commentary, either public or directly to you, about the election being rigged? MR. TRUMP: As I have said numerous times, I don't recall ever speaking to him about it. MR. SWALWELL: So from September 20th, now all the way up to November 8 -- let's go to November 9. 12:49, a.m. November 9, WikiLeaks DMs you again with a one-word message, wow. Did you read that message? MR. TRUMP: At some point. At 12:49, I probably wasn't reading DMs, but it doesn't seem like a strange response. I had plenty of people that I had known through various parts of life saying Wow, because I think it was probably the biggest upset in political history. MR. SWALWELL: So from September 20th to November 9, we have seen a number of direct messages from WikiLeaks to you, and sometimes responses. And I just want to be clear, your testimony today is that in that period, you never conveyed to your father in person, by telephone, or any other electronic communication, that you were in contact with WikiLeaks. MR. TRUMP: It is my testimony that I do not recall ever speaking to him about WikiLeaks or them contacting me. MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever tell the FBI, prior to the election, that WikiLeaks was in direct contact with you? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe I had any communication with the FBI before then. MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever tell anyone in law enforcement that WikiLeaks was talking to you about Hillary Clinton's emails or anything that they had? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 157 MR. SWALWELL: Shifting to the Trump Tower project that you referenced with Emin, were you referring to a November 11, 2013, deal made with the Crocus Group? MR. TRUMP: I don't know what that deal is. MR. SWALWELL: How about a letter of intent? MR. TRUMP: What exactly is the question? MR. SWALWELL: You referenced earlier that your familiarity with Emin was that he and his father were a part of the early discussions after the Miss Universe contest in Russia to have a Trump Tower in Moscow. MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. SWALWELL: And I am asking you, is the group that that was with not actually the Agalarovs, but their group the Crocus Group? MR. TRUMP: I believe that was Crocus, yes. MR. SWALWELL: Were you involved in that deal or the effort to make that deal? MR. TRUMP: I was involved in the effort to make that deal, yes. MR. SWALWELL: Who else was involved besides the Crocus Group and The Trump Organization? MR. TRUMP: I don't know of anyone. Maybe if they had an architecture firm that may have been speaking with us at the time, but I don't remember any other, you know -MR. SWALWELL: Were there other potential investors? MR. TRUMP: Not that I am aware of. MR. SWALWELL: And the Crocus Group, as far as you knew at the time, and today, was owned by Russian oligarch Aras Agalarov? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 158 MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. SWALWELL: Fast forwarding to fall 2015, are you familiar with an effort in the fall of 2015 to have a Trump Tower in Moscow? MR. TRUMP: Vaguely, yes. MR. SWALWELL: How are you familiar? MR. TRUMP: I believe that another gentleman in our office, Michael Cohen, had worked on a deal that got to LOI to build a Trump Tower Moscow. MR. SWALWELL: Who was Michael Cohen working with? MR. TRUMP: Who was he working with? MR. SWALWELL: Yes. MR. TRUMP: On that deal? MR. SWALWELL: Yes. MR. TRUMP: I believe he was working primarily by himself. MR. SWALWELL: Well, he wasn't talking to himself about a deal on Trump Tower. Who was he working with -MR. TRUMP: You mean outside of The Trump Organization? MR. SWALWELL: Yeah. MR. TRUMP: I don't know who the other counterparties are. I know in studying for this I don't know who the person in Russia was that they were talking with. I believe he had worked with someone named Felix Sater on it. MR. SWALWELL: When did you first learn about the effort to put a Trump Tower in Moscow in 2015? MR. TRUMP: I don't remember. I wasn't very involved at all. MR. SWALWELL: Who first told you? Was it Mr. Cohen directly or somebody else? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 159 MR. TRUMP: I would imagine it was Michael, but I don't know. MR. SWALWELL: Did you work on the same floor in 2015 as Michael? MR. TRUMP: No, I did not. MR. SWALWELL: What floor was he on? MR. TRUMP: 26. MR. SWALWELL: And what floor were you on? MR. TRUMP: 25. MR. SWALWELL: Who is Felix Sater? MR. TRUMP: Felix Sater was a developer. He was a gentleman who worked at what was then the Bayrock Group, an organization that did two projects with us where we licensed -- well, one where we were partial owner, but primarily a licensor of our brand and expertise. MR. SWALWELL: When did you first meet Felix Sater? MR. TRUMP: Mid-2000s. MR. SWALWELL: How were you introduced to him? MR. TRUMP: I guess through the Bayrock Group. MR. SWALWELL: And I am going to stick -- I know there is other questions that Ms. Speier is going to have in a moment about that. But with respect to Mr. Sater and Mr. Cohen, what did Mr. Cohen tell you for the Trump Tower 2015 project that Mr. Sater's role would be? MR. TRUMP: I don't remember him per se having a role. I know that they were talking about it. I think I generally think of Mr. Sater as a broker. So if he made introductions to Michael, to whoever the developer would have been, because we wouldn't have been a developer for the most part outside of the country. So I would have likely assumed he would have been a broker, but I don't UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 160 recall having a specific conversation with Mr. Cohen about that. MR. SWALWELL: Did you know Mr. Sater to be a Russian national? Did you know that about his background? MR. TRUMP: No, I thought he was American. MR. SWALWELL: Did you know that he had any ties to Russia? MR. TRUMP: I knew that he had ties to Russia, yes. MR. SWALWELL: When I say a Russian national, I mean somebody who was born in Russia, a Russian American. MR. TRUMP: I may have known that at some time. I don't know that now. I thought he was American. MR. SWALWELL: Did you know in 2015, when Mr. Cohen was negotiating a Trump Tower and working with Mr. Sater, that Mr. Sater had a prior criminal history? MR. TRUMP: Yes, I had read that. MR. SWALWELL: You read that prior to Mr. Cohen working with Mr. Sater? MR. TRUMP: Prior to 2015, yes. MR. SWALWELL: How long have you known Mr. Cohen? MR. TRUMP: Twelve years, probably. MR. SWALWELL: And you knew Mr. Cohen to be someone who was friends with Mr. Sater, not just business associates, but also someone who grew up with Mr. Sater? MR. TRUMP: I don't know that they grew up together. I know they were acquaintances, yes. MR. SWALWELL: Long time acquaintances. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 161 MR. TRUMP: Reasonably. I don't know. MR. SWALWELL: What was your father's knowledge of Mr. Sater and Mr. Cohen's effort to put a Trump Tower in Moscow in 2015? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. But for a license deal, my father would not typically have gotten all that involved. MR. SWALWELL: So you were, at that time in 2015, the executive vice president? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SWALWELL: And what was your father's role in The Trump Organization in 2015? MR. TRUMP: President. MR. SWALWELL: And your father, in the fall of 2015, was also a candidate for President of the United States in the Republican primary. Is that right? MR. TRUMP: I believe so, yes. Wait, wait. Yes, fall of 2015, yes, that's correct. MR. SWALWELL: And it's your testimony today that you never talked to your father once about a potential Trump Tower in Moscow at all in 2015? MR. TRUMP: I am aware that he signed an LOI for it. I don't recall having specific conversations with him about it, because I wasn't really involved on the deal side of the project. MR. SWALWELL: Did Michael Cohen ever tell you whether he was in contact with your father about a Trump Tower in Moscow in 2015? MR. TRUMP: He may have. Not that I recall. MR. SWALWELL: Now, this was at least the second effort to -- well, let me UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 162 ask you, how many times have you tried to put a Trump Tower in Moscow? MR. TRUMP: I mean I looked at a few deals over the years. Nothing had ever materialized. So I don't know, four, five attempts. MR. SWALWELL: Why Moscow? MR. TRUMP: Just like any other major city in the world, command high real estate prices, appreciate luxury brands. That's who we are. MR. SWALWELL: How many times have you been there? MR. TRUMP: I believe I have been there five times. MR. SWALWELL: What time period? MR. TRUMP: First, on around 2003, and the last time, around 2011. MR. SWALWELL: 2011 was the last time you were there? MR. TRUMP: I believe so, yes. MR. SWALWELL: Was Jared Kushner familiar with Michael Cohen and Felix Sater's efforts to build a Trump Tower in Moscow in 2015? MR. TRUMP: He probably would not have been. MR. SWALWELL: Why do you say that? MR. TRUMP: Because he wasn't a member of The Trump Organization. He wouldn't have been looking at our deals. MR. SWALWELL: How about Mr. Kushner's wife, your sister, Ivanka? Would she have been aware of the effort in 2015 to have a Trump Tower in Moscow? MR. TRUMP: I have seen an email with her on it. I don't think she was extensively involved either. VOICE: One minute. MR. SWALWELL: Which email did you see with her on it? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 163 MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. I just know I have seen one correspondence with her in it talking about if things progress or whatever, we would need to bring in a good architect to look at the deal. MR. SWALWELL: In November 2015, Mr. Sater was attempting to connect your father, a candidate for President at the time, with Vladimir Putin. Are you familiar with that effort? MR. TRUMP: With Vladimir Putin? No, I am not. MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Cohen ever talk to you about email exchanges he had with Mr. Sater with respect to the Trump Tower in Moscow? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Sater had told Mr. Cohen on November 3rd, 2015, "buddy boy" -- I am sorry, "Buddy, our boy, can become President of the United States and we can engineer it. I will get all of Putin's team to buy in on this." Did Mr. Cohen ever relay that sentiment from Mr. Sater to you. MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SWALWELL: Had your sister ever sat in Vladimir Putin's chair? MR. TRUMP: Not to my knowledge. MR. SWALWELL: Have you heard of that account from Mr. Cohen or Mr. Sater? MR. TRUMP: I have heard of that in preparation for this. I don't know that that's accurate. MR. SWALWELL: Has she ever told you that she sat in his chair? MR. TRUMP: She hasn't. MR. SWALWELL: I yield back. I have more questions. MR. CONAWAY: No questions on our side at this time. Your 15 minutes. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 164 MR. SWALWELL: Why do you think that Mr. Sater would claim that he had arranged for your sister to sit in Mr. Putin's chair? MR. TRUMP: Felix is a promoter. MR. SWALWELL: Like Mr. Goldstone? MR. TRUMP: Similar. Different, but similar. MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Sater also said on November 3, 2015, "Michael, Putin gets on stage with Donald for a ribbon cutting for Trump Moscow and Donald owns the Republican nomination." Did Mr. Cohen ever tell you about this message from Mr. Sater? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. SWALWELL: But you agree that in that exchange, Mr. Sater is mixing a potential business deal and a political campaign that your father's in? MR. TRUMP: You would have to ask Mr. Sater. MR. SWALWELL: But would you agree that that's an accurate characterization? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. We were still a business at the time. I have no idea what his intentions were. MR. SWALWELL: When, to your knowledge, did the Trump Tower Moscow deal fall apart? MR. TRUMP: I don't have specific knowledge of when it fell apart. MR. SWALWELL: Is it still active today? MR. TRUMP: No, it's not. MR. SWALWELL: Do you have knowledge at all of it ceasing? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SWALWELL: So Mr. Cohen never came to you and said, hey, that UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 165 deal, or the workup, the letter of intent for Trump Tower in Moscow, that's dead or that's going nowhere? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall having that conversation. MR. SWALWELL: So to your knowledge then, in 2016 that deal still could have been active? MR. TRUMP: I am not aware of it being active, so I don't know. MR. SWALWELL: When you took a meeting on June 9, 2016, with, as Mr. Schiff referred to it as the Russian delegation, it sounds like your testimony is today that you would not have known if the Trump Tower Moscow deal was active or inactive? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe it was active, but I wasn't involved enough to know one way or the other. MR. SWALWELL: So if you just testified a moment ago that you didn't know when it had ceased, and you didn't even know if it had ceased, how did you know on June 9 that it was no longer active? MR. TRUMP: I imagine if a deal was progressing, I would probably keep hearing about it, and if I hadn't heard about it in a long time I wouldn't have been aware of it. MR. SWALWELL: But it's fair to say that when you sat in that meeting on June 9, 2016, it doesn't sound like you could say for sure, one way or the other, if the deal was active or inactive. MR. TRUMP: I have no idea. MR. SWALWELL: Were you aware that in 2016, Mr. Sater and Mr. Cohen were in negotiations or communications about visas for Mr. Cohen and your father to travel to Moscow for the Trump Tower deal? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 166 MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Cohen ever discuss that with you? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. MR. SWALWELL: In an October 12, 2015, email exchange between Mr. Sater and Mr. Cohen, Mr. Sater references a person named Andrey Kostin, who Mr. Sater labels as Putin's top finance guy. Are you familiar with Mr. Kostin? MR. TRUMP: I am not. MR. SWALWELL: Had you ever heard Mr. Cohen discuss Mr. Kostin? MR. TRUMP: Not to my recollection. MR. SWALWELL: Had you ever heard anyone in The Trump Organization discuss Mr. Kostin? MR. TRUMP: No, not to my knowledge. MR. SWALWELL: According to the email, Mr. Kostin indicated that he would finance Trump Moscow. In your role as executive vice president, would the investors in a Trump project overseas be something that you were familiar with? Or potential investors? MR. TRUMP: By some point in time perhaps, but again, we would not have been the developer of Trump Moscow, so their financing could have been done on their own. The developer would have done that. MR. SWALWELL: Are you aware of which bank Mr. Kostin served as CEO? MR. TRUMP: I am not. MR. SWALWELL: In late 2016, the Russian Government approved the extension of six trademarks held by The Trump Organization. Four of them, which related to the hotel and branding efforts in Russia, were finalized on UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 167 November 8, 2016. They were originally filed between 1996 and 2007. Were you involved at all in obtaining Trump Organization trademarks in Russia? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SWALWELL: Were you familiar with the efforts between '96 and 2007 to obtain trademarks in Russia? MR. TRUMP: I am familiar with generally speaking we have obtained trademarks in countries all over the world in for our brand, but not particularly Russia. MR. SWALWELL: So your testimony is that you were not familiar with any efforts to obtain any trademarks in Russia? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. SWALWELL: Something you had never heard of? MR. TRUMP: Not specifically to Russia, no. MR. SWALWELL: Were you notified on November 8 or around November 8 that the trademarks were finalized? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. FUTERFAS: If I could have a moment. Thank you. MR. SWALWELL: During the campaign did you ever provide the Trump campaign with any information about Hillary Clinton? MR. TRUMP: Did I? MR. SWALWELL: Yeah. MR. TRUMP: Not to my recollection, no. MR. SWALWELL: During the campaign, did you ever provide the Russian Government, or an agent of the Russian Government, with any information related to Hillary Clinton or any other political candidate or party? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 168 MR. TRUMP: Not that I am aware of. MR. SWALWELL: During the campaign did you ever provide any individual with any information related to Hillary Clinton or any other can political candidate or party? MR. FUTERFAS: Hold on. Do you mind repeating that question? MR. SWALWELL: Sure. During the campaign, did you ever provide any individual with any information related to Hillary Clinton or any other political candidate or party? MR. TRUMP: I mean, I could interpret that question I mean, if I sent something out on Twitter, I am providing information to someone, right? I mean do you mean like specific information that I somehow got somewhere? I don't understand -MR. SWALWELL: Nonpublicly available information. MR. TRUMP: No, not to my knowledge. MR. SWALWELL: Are you aware of anyone who provided information to the Russian Government or an agent of the Russian Government during the campaign? MR. TRUMP: No, I am not. MR. SWALWELL: Are you aware of anyone who provided information about Hillary Clinton or any other political candidate or party to the Russian Government, an agent of the Russian Government, or any other party or individual during the campaign? MR. TRUMP: No, not to my knowledge. MR. SWALWELL: During the 2016 U.S. election period, let's just say from June 2015, when your father announced as a candidate up until Election Day, did UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 169 you ever receive information about Hillary Clinton or any other individuals related to the Democratic Party, and Clinton's political campaign from Russia or an agent of the Russian Government? MR. TRUMP: No, not to my knowledge. MR. GOWDY: That might depend whether or not you consider WikiLeaks to be an agent of the Russian Government. MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Gowdy, respectfully, you want to sit on this side or over there? MR. TRUMP: I don't think I got anything from them that wasn't publicly, you know, made available. MR. FUTERFAS: Why don't we say not to his knowledge. How is that? MR. SWALWELL: Are you aware of anyone who received information from Russia or an agent of the Russian Government about Hillary Clinton or any other individuals related to the Democratic Party and Clinton's political campaign during the campaign? MR. FUTERFAS: I object to the form of the question, only because the question is whether he is aware of anyone receiving information. Again -MR. SWALWELL: Just going to your knowledge. MR. FUTERFAS: But it's -- okay. Can we suggest that the question is limited to other than whatever was publicly available via WikiLeaks, et cetera, that we have talked about here? MR. SWALWELL: Sure. Are you aware of anyone who you knew receiving information from Russia or an agent of the Russian Government about Hillary Clinton or any other individuals related to the Democratic Party and Clinton's political campaign during the campaign? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 170 MR. TRUMP: No, not to my knowledge. MR. SWALWELL: Yield back to the ranking member. MR. SCHIFF: I just have a few more questions, and then I am going to hand it to Jackie Speier. On October 7, one thing my colleague referenced the statement of the Director of the Department of Homeland Security and the Director of National Intelligence -MR. TRUMP: Of this year? MR. SCHIFF: Of last year, October 7, 2016. MR. TRUMP: Okay. MR. SCHIFF: In which the Directors stated that U.S. Intelligence Community is confident that the Russian Government directed the recent compromises of the emails from U.S. persons and institutions, including from U.S. political organizations. Were you aware of that statement when it was issued on October 7? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: You don't recall the intelligence agencies announcing for the first time that, quote, "The recent disclosures of alleged hacked emails on sites like DCLeaks.com and WikiLeaks and by the Guccifer 2 online persona are consistent with the methods and motivations of Russian-directed efforts"? MR. TRUMP: I have read that since. I don't know what I knew at the time. MR. SCHIFF: Well, it's fairly big news at the time that the U.S. Intelligence Community had concluded that, quote, "These thefts and disclosures are intended to interfere with the U.S. election process," unquote. Does that refresh your recollection? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 171 MR. TRUMP: Not specifically to those days, no. MR. SCHIFF: Do you have any reason to quarrel with the conclusions of the Directors of Homeland Security and National Intelligence that I have just stated, including that only Russia's senior-most officials could have authorized these activities? MR. TRUMP: I don't have any knowledge of it, so I don't -- no, I can't. MR. SCHIFF: But you don't remember whether you were aware of this at the time that the agency heads made this announcement? MR. TRUMP: Again, I may have been. I have no recollection of being made aware of it or knowing it. It was a pretty busy time for us. MR. SCHIFF: Well, on the same day that the U.S. intelligence agencies made public that this was part of a Russian effort, making use of WikiLeaks, on that same day, you were pushing out information that WikiLeaks was disclosing about John Podesta and Hillary Clinton's speeches on Wall Street. Does that refresh your recollection at all? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. SCHIFF: If you had been aware at the time that the U.S. intelligence agencies concluded that WikiLeaks was being used as a part of a Russian operation to interfere with our election, would you have nonetheless made use of the WikiLeaks vehicle the Russians were using? MR. TRUMP: I don't want to speculate as to what I may have done. I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: I am asking you if you were aware that the U.S. intelligence agencies concluded that senior-most Kremlin officials were orchestrating the use through WikiLeaks of a process designed to influence our election, would you UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 172 have continued to make use of WikiLeaks in your campaign? MR. TRUMP: I guess it would depend on who else -- if the major media outlets, as they had, continued to publish the WikiLeaks stuff, I may have continued to retweet those other outlets pushing that information. I don't know. I can't speculate as to what I would have possibly done. MR. SCHIFF: And if you had concluded that the Russian Government was also behind the effort to arrange the meeting in Trump Tower and provide you other information on Hillary Clinton, would you have made use of that information? MR. TRUMP: Excuse me, can you repeat the question? MR. SCHIFF: If you had been made aware that, or if you had concluded that the Russian Government was similarly behind the effort to organize the meeting at Trump Tower and provide you the information that was provided at that meeting, would you have likewise made use of that information? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: But you may not have been deterred even if you knew it was a senior Kremlin-directed effort? MR. TRUMP: I very well may have. Again, I just don't want to speculate as to what I may have done in a hypothetical situation. MR. SCHIFF: But you can't rule it out that you would have done it anyway? MR. FUTERFAS: Object to the question. And it's been asked and answered about six times. MR. SCHIFF: But you can't rule out that you might have made use of the information even if you had known it had come from senior levels of the Kremlin? MR. FUTERFAS: My client has said five times, and the record will UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 173 indicate, that he is not going to speculate on hypothetical situations that weren't occurring at that time. MR. SCHIFF: I am not asking your client to speculate on hypothetical situations involving other people. I am asking your client what he would have done if he was aware, as the Intelligence Community concluded, that WikiLeaks was being used as part of a Kremlin-directed effort, would he still have made use of that? MR. TRUMP: If the other -- as I said earlier, if the other media outlets continued to cover them, would I retweet something of CNN talking about these things, even if the intelligence organizations said that it was bad, but hundreds of millions of people around the world are seeing it? I may have. I don't know. If you are asking me if I am the only person that had that information and the intelligence agency said it was obtained, I may not have. I likely would not have. But again, I don't want to speculate as to, you know, these scenarios. MR. SCHIFF: But on June 9, because the rest of the world wasn't aware of the meeting at Trump Tower, you were willing to entertain making use of information that was represented to you as coming from the Russian Government. MR. FUTERFAS: I am going to object to the question. This was asked and answered. This was the subject, this question was asked for at least an hour earlier today. And it's been answered numerous times. At this point, I don't appreciate that, because I think we are here, we are here voluntarily. We have answered lots of repetitive questions, but now we are getting into where it's another question that's identical to what's been asked many times before. And the answer that you received before many times was didn't know what to make of the email, decided to take the meeting, see what would come up of it. That's UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 174 what's been said multiple times. MR. TRUMP: To put an end to this, bottom line is I didn't think there was anything wrong with listening to information. MR. SCHIFF: Let me ask you, based on our consultation with House counsel -MR. CONAWAY: Time. We are going to swap sides. MR. GOWDY: I appreciate your desire to put an end to it, Mr. Trump. And the last time I said this, my friends on the other side got upset. But there is a reason you were asked the same question eight to 10 to 20 different times. The longer you are here, the more important you seem, the bigger the story it is. MR. TRUMP: I understand. MR. GOWDY: And if we time it just right, it will be in time for some of the evening news shows. My friend from California is right, October 7 should have been big news, should have been big news. Any time the Intelligence Community concludes that a foreign actor that is hostile to the United States is interfering with our election it should be big news. He is also right the Podesta emails came that day. I am sure it was inadvertent, but he failed to cite the biggest news story of all that day. Are you familiar with an Access Hollywood tape that came out? MR. TRUMP: I am. MR. GOWDY: Do you know what day that came out? MR. TRUMP: I don't specifically, but it's close. MR. GOWDY: Would it surprise you to know it was October 7? MR. TRUMP: It was a pretty long day for me. That could be why I may not have heard of the other news, because I was pretty busy. MR. GOWDY: Yeah. And I don't know if it's a reflection of us or the UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 175 media, the fact that something that should be big news, which is another country trying to interfere with our election, very few people heard about, but the Access Hollywood audiotape, I think everybody knows where they were when they heard that. So on October the 7th, there were three big stories, all three important stories. All three of them should have been covered. They just weren't covered equally. And what my friend from California made reference to, I would argue, was covered the least of the three, which is the assessment of the Intelligence Community. I want to pick up on another line of inquiry to try to help you understand where they are getting, which is the fact that you would retweet something from WikiLeaks because WikiLeaks obtained it illegally, not just improperly, but illegally. That the redissemination, the retweeting of that somehow also impacts you. Which makes me wonder whether or not you have ever retweeted a story by CNN? MR. TRUMP: I have. MR. GOWDY: Have you ever retweeted a story by The New York Times? MR. TRUMP: I have, yes. MR. GOWDY: Have you ever reed a story by The Washington Post? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. GOWDY: One thing all three -- well, they actually have a lot of things in common, but one thing the three of them have in common is they have all written stories where they relied on anonymous sources to disseminate classified information, which is a felony. All three of those entities have broken stories using anonymous sources that disseminated classified information. And yet, there is no outrage that you would retweet anything from the three of them. MR. TRUMP: Of course not. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 176 MR. GOWDY: It's only when it's other information. So if you are struggling to find consistency, or an absence of relativism in some of the questions that you are getting, that might help you understand it. MR. TRUMP: That's fair. Thank you. MR. GOWDY: That's all I have. MR. CONAWAY: Fifteen. MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Trump, I would only say there have been any number of iterations of what happened at the June 9 meeting, beginning with your initial statement, subsequent statements, and your testimony today. That's why we are asking detailed questions about this. In terms of length of our meeting today, I would only point out that the hearing with my colleague and Secretary Clinton lasted 11 hours. So we are moving at breakneck speed compared to that hearing. I want to -MR. TRUMP: Which hearing was that? MR. SCHIFF: That was the one with Hillary Clinton. MR. TRUMP: About this topic? MR. SCHIFF: No, about Benghazi. MR. TRUMP: I would argue that her, as Secretary of State, where Americans died is perhaps bigger than a 20-minute nonmeeting with the Russians, but that's just me. MR. SCHIFF: And what would you say about the significance of a foreign adversary intervening in our Presidential election? Would you consider that insignificant? MR. TRUMP: I don't consider that insignificant, but I have no knowledge of it. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 177 MR. SCHIFF: Let me ask you a number of questions based on consultation with House counsel. These are factual matters that will help us evaluate your counsel's claim of privilege. The conversation which you are claiming may be covered by attorney-client privilege when you spoke with your father, when did that conversation take place? MR. TRUMP: Monday. MR. FUTERFAS: Monday, I believe it is July 10, 2017. MR. SCHIFF: Was this conversation in person? MR. TRUMP: No, it was not. MR. SCHIFF: Well, you testified earlier that the conversation you had -- or the text messages you exchanged with Hope Hicks were the only communication, and you only indirectly learned that your father preferred the short version. Was this conversation you had with your father before or after the communication with Hope Hicks? MR. TRUMP: It was after. MR. SCHIFF: And was that communication in person or by phone? MR. TRUMP: By phone. MR. SCHIFF: And so, when you say that it was in the presence of your lawyer, was your lawyer in the room with you when you were on the phone with your father? MR. TRUMP: Yes, he was. MR. SCHIFF: And how do you know that your father was also in the presence of counsel? MR. TRUMP: I believe I was told. MR. SCHIFF: Told by whom? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 178 MR. TRUMP: Either my father or counsel, I don't recall. MR. FUTERFAS: It was announced. It was clear there was counsel in the room. MR. SCHIFF: Was the call on a speaker phone? MR. TRUMP: Yes, it was. MR. SCHIFF: And did the parties who were present identify themselves at the beginning of the call? MR. TRUMP: I believe so. MR. SCHIFF: And who was identified as being present? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: Do you know which lawyer was there on behalf of your father or were there multiple lawyers? MR. TRUMP: I believe there were multiple, but I don't remember. MR. SCHIFF: Do you know whether your father's lawyer was his personal lawyer or his White House lawyer? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall the names of anyone of your father's counsel that were on the phone? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall whether there were others in the room in addition to your father and his counsel on your father's end of the conversation? MR. TRUMP: I am sorry, repeat the question please? MR. SCHIFF: Do you know whether there were others present with your father not including your father and his lawyers? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 179 MR. SCHIFF: Do you know whether there was any nonlawyer with your father? MR. TRUMP: At that time I don't know, no. MR. SCHIFF: And where were you when the call was placed or received? MR. TRUMP: I was in my office. MR. SCHIFF: And which of your counsel was present? MR. TRUMP: This Alan and this Alan. MR. SCHIFF: Were there any other parties present apart from your lawyers? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: And who placed the call? MR. TRUMP: I don't remember. MR. SCHIFF: Do you know who scheduled the call? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SCHIFF: And what was the purpose of the call? MR. FUTERFAS: We are going to assert privilege at that point. Thank you. MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss any steps that would be taken to keep the discussion confidential? MR. FUTERFAS: Again, the content. We are not going to go into content to the telephone call. MR. SCHIFF: Did you or your father speak to communications staff within the White House or Trump Organization or elsewhere about or describe your discussion with your father with respect to whether to release the email exchange, or how to handle the press that accompanied the release of your statement? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 180 MR. FUTERFAS: Do you mind rephrasing the question? I don't understand the question. MR. SCHIFF: Yes. Did you or your father, to your knowledge, speak with communications staff within the White House or The Trump Organization or elsewhere, in which you discussed the discussion you had with your father with respect to the email exchange? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: Did you speak with anyone else about that conversation, whether they were with communications staff or not? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. SCHIFF: So this phone conversation you had, you didn't discuss with any other members of your family? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: Or anyone outside your family? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so, apart from counsel, obviously. MR. SCHIFF: To your knowledge, did your father speak publicly about whether he had any discussions with you about releasing the email exchange or the statement that would accompany it? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: To your knowledge did your father speak privately with anyone about your discussions about the email exchange? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: Apart from this conversation, did your father ever express any anger over your meeting at Trump Tower or how you handled it? MR. TRUMP: No. Not that I remember. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE MR. SCHIFF: Ms. Speier. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 181 UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 182 [3:39 p.m.] MS. SPEIER: Thank you, Mr. Trump, for being here. MR. TRUMP: Thank you. MS. SPEIER: You know, in listening to you today, I get the impression that you didn't have a lot of contact with your dad during the campaign. MR. TRUMP: I actually didn't. MS. SPEIER: And yet, we have testimony from others that suggested that you had at least weekly meetings to talk about the campaign as a family. Is that not the case? MR. TRUMP: We would have weekly meetings probably -- I don't know that my father was always in those meetings. That would be oftentimes with my brother-in-law, my sister, my brother, other members of the campaign staff. He was often on the road, as was I most of the time. MS. SPEIER: But there were weekly meetings then? MR. TRUMP: Sure. MS. SPEIER: And so you spoke about strategy, I presume. MR. TRUMP: Yeah. MS. SPEIER: So candidate Trump kept talking about this rigged election, this election is rigged. So that was a strategy that had been discussed by all of you as part of the campaign team, correct? MR. TRUMP: I don't know that talking about a potentially rigged election was part of a strategy, no. MS. SPEIER: Well, did you believe it was rigged at the time? MR. TRUMP: I believe that anything is possible. I don't know -- I don't know enough about it to know whether it was or was not. There were certainly UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 183 things that were at times perhaps suspect to me in seeing how things were going, but I don't ever recall having a conversation with my father about talking about a rigged election as a strategy, so -- or anyone else on the campaign team, frankly. MS. SPEIER: Okay. I'm going to move into a whole different area. When did you first start working for your father at The Trump Organization? MR. TRUMP: 2001. MS. SPEIER: 2001. And what was your title then? MR. TRUMP: I was some sort of associate, low level. MS. SPEIER: Okay. And by 2015, you were the executive vice president? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MS. SPEIER: And certainly since then, you and your brother have been running The Trump Organization? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MS. SPEIER: As you look -- as we look at all of the engagement with Russia, I mean, the then Trump in November of 1996 announced that he was going to invest $250 million in Russia and put his name on two luxury residential buildings. Again, in 2005, when you were working with your father, there was an effort to try and do some project in Russia. Again in 2008. Again in 2013. Again in 2015 and '16. So you have had a concerted effort for a long period of time within The Trump Organization to build projects in Russia, correct? MR. TRUMP: Yes, and many other countries in the world that we also don't have projects in. MS. SPEIER: And is there a reason that you've come up with as to why UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 184 you've been unsuccessful in getting these projects going in Russia? MR. TRUMP: Deals aren't easy. MS. SPEIER: So you can't point to anything in particular? MR. TRUMP: No, I can't. MR. FUTERFAS: Just a minute. [Discussion off the record.] MR. TRUMP: I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question? MS. SPEIER: I said, you can't point to anything in particular? MR. TRUMP: No, I can't. MS. SPEIER: So in 2011, you were on a business trip to Moscow, and you said, and I quote, "I really prefer Moscow over all cities in the world." MR. TRUMP: I may have. I don't know. MS. SPEIER: So why did you say that? MR. TRUMP: I don't know that I did, but -MS. SPEIER: Well, you're quoted -MR. TRUMP: -- it's a very nice city. MS. SPEIER: You reference St. Basil's, I guess, as one of the most spectacular places that you always go to when you're in Moscow. Is that -MR. TRUMP: It's beautiful. I don't remember saying that, but I may have. MS. SPEIER: And how many trips have you made to Russia? MR. TRUMP: I believe five, according to my passport. MS. SPEIER: In September 2008 -- now, this is September 2008, this country is on its knees. Frankly, the world is on its knees from a financial standpoint. You're at a real estate conference, and you said, quote, "We see a lot of money pouring in from Russia of Trump Organization properties. There's UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 185 indeed a lot of money coming for new builds and resales." Is that accurate? MR. TRUMP: I've read that, yes. MS. SPEIER: Well, you're quoted as saying that. MR. TRUMP: Yes, I've read that. I don't remember saying it, but I've read it and I don't have a reason to dispute it. MS. SPEIER: So it was accurate then. Does that remain accurate today? MR. TRUMP: Not as much because we haven't built as much new condominium-type development. We're a high-end real estate developer in New York City. When you're a high-end real estate developer in New York City that lends itself to foreign nationals from any number of countries, oftentimes depending on a market cycle, what's going on in those countries, who invest in real estate in New York City. So if I'm talking at a high-end Russian real estate conference, it would not be uncommon for me to say that, yes, Russians are big investors in New York. That wouldn't be a stretch. It also wouldn't be a stretch to say there are big investors in Miami. It would be a stretch to say that there are big investors in Toledo, Ohio. But where we build our projects in New York City, it would not be uncommon to have quite a few Russian buyers, Saudi buyers, Chinese buyers, Latin American buyers, wealthy people from any number of markets. So if I was speaking at a Russian real estate conference, I imagine I would have said that, yes. MS. SPEIER: In August of 2013, your brother was at the Trump National Golf Club in Charlotte and said, quote, "We don't rely on American banks. We have all the funding we need out of Russia," unquote. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 186 MR. TRUMP: He's totally disputed that. It's totally inaccurate. And none of our bank statements or any accounting that has been presented and made public has -- I'm not aware of any Russian financial institutions that were involved. MS. SPEIER: Well, maybe not from Russian financial institutions, but Russian oligarchs that invest in your properties. MR. TRUMP: I'm not aware of any investors or partners that are -- if we're a developer, and we're in charge of that, I'm not aware of any of that. Now, if someone is a buyer of a condominium unit that we build, they may be, yes. They're investing in a building that we built. They are owning it, just like anyone else could. That doesn't make them a partner. It doesn't make them an investor with us. It doesn't make them anything other than a buyer of real estate. One minute. MS. SPEIER: So in 1984, so this is before you became associated with the organization -MR. TRUMP: I was 7. MS. SPEIER: Well, so you won't remember this, but you've certainly heard about this. David Begotin (ph), a Russian emigre with little apparent financial resources, purchased five units in Trump Tower for $6 million, all in cash. The transaction was so unusual that your father personally attended the closing. MR. TRUMP: I have not read this, by the way, so I don't know. MS. SPEIER: All right. All right. So this is new to you. In 1987, Begotin (ph) pled guilty to taking part in a massive gasoline bootlegging scheme with Russian mobsters. The government seized all five of those condos at Trump Tower, saying that they had been purchased to launder money to shelter and hide assets. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 187 So you've never heard about that particular -MR. TRUMP: No. MS. SPEIER: -- set of circumstances? Time, ma'am. MR. ROONEY: We yield. MS. SPEIER: Subsequently, it appears, once you were in part of the organization, the New York Police arrested 29 suspects who were allegedly running gambling rings and money laundering out of two condos, one of which was -- occupied an entire floor at Trump Tower. Two of these suspects were Russians who owned Trump condos in Florida. A notorious Russian mafia boss, Almazan Taktak Konuoff (ph), was the only target to slip away. Seven months later, after the 2013 indictment, he appeared near your father in the VIP section of the Miss Universe pageant in Moscow. As of May of this year, he is still at large. Do you have any recollection of any of that? MR. TRUMP: I don't. And, again, just for clarification, Trump Tower was originally topped out in 1982. So any of those sales, that unit or a combination of units that he may have occupied, he could have purchased from a third party that could have been the fifth buyer or occupier of a unit that we may have nothing to actually do with because it's a condominium. It's not a rental apartment. So I don't know that we would have any connection to those people necessarily. MS. SPEIER: So one-third of the units in the Trump Tower were purchased by either individual buyers from the former Soviet Union or limited liability companies connected to Russia. Sixty-three buyers with Russian addresses or passports spent $98 million on Trump properties in southern Florida. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 188 You're not familiar with that at all? MR. TRUMP: I know that there are some Russian buyers in Trump properties in southern Florida. I also know that we are a licensor of our brand on those properties in southern Florida and aren't the developer or the person that's receiving money for the sale of those units. We'd get a fee from the owner of the building based on those sales. So we're not actually selling to those buyers at all. MS. SPEIER: Are you familiar with the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act? MR. TRUMP: I am. MS. SPEIER: What is your understanding of it? MR. TRUMP: Well, my understanding, it's a complicated legislation that I'd let my attorneys speak to. MS. SPEIER: Well, it prohibits U.S. actors from engaging in conscious -- in a foreign -- conscious disregard of the actions of a foreign partner or intermediary. In May of 2012, your father on CNBC said it was a horrible law, and that Americans -- American companies who refuse to give bribes, you will do business nowhere. Did you ever have conversations with your father about the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act? MR. TRUMP: Not to my recollection. MS. SPEIER: Okay. In 2010, your father, in announcing the opening of Trump SoHo, said it's a $370 million work of art. Do you remember where the funding came from? MR. TRUMP: There were numerous institutions involved, I believe, throughout the process. I believe High Star Financial (ph) was the mezzanine lender. There was another primary mortgage lender that was -- I forget. I don't UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 189 remember. MS. SPEIER: Do you remember Icelandic Bank? MR. TRUMP: Not particularly. MS. SPEIER: Well, reports suggest that it was a major source of funding. MR. TRUMP: They may have been. Again, I wasn't the developer, so I didn't arrange financing for the building. MS. SPEIER: And who recommended it? Do you know? MR. TRUMP: I have no idea. MS. SPEIER: So who were your partners? MR. TRUMP: The primary developer would have been the Sapir Organization, and the other owner would have -- other partner with that would have been the Bayrock Group. MS. SPEIER: So Felix Sater was the Bayrock Group, correct? MR. TRUMP: Well, he was president of the Bayrock Group. I don't know that he owned it. But, yes, he was part of it. MR. FUTERFAS: May I just have one moment, Congresswoman? MS. SPEIER: Sure. MR. FUTERFAS: Thank you. [Discussion off the record.] MR. FUTERFAS: Congresswoman Speier, we have a concern that the -- we're getting into a question of pertinence to the committee's inquiry with this line of questions about a Trump SoHo deal that's 2010, I think. And we -- I'm just not clear exactly the pertinence of this line of questioning to the, at least publicly stated, areas of inquiry by this committee. And I just wanted to note that and put that on the table for you all to kind of consider. Thank you. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 190 MS. SPEIER: So I am only addressing financial deals associated with Russian operatives. And our inquiry is about whether or not there was a relationship between The Trump Organization, the Trump campaign, and Russia, and if so, what it might be engaged in or relative to. And if you -- in terms of Mr. Sater, he actually said in an email, "Buddy, our boy can become President of the USA, and we can engineer it. I will get all of Putin's team to buy in on this." So -MR. FUTERFAS: All right. If I may confer one more second with my colleagues. Thank you. [Discussion off the record.] MR. FUTERFAS: Madam Congresswoman, we understand and accept your theory of this line of questioning, at least in terms of pertinence, and we'll continue to answer your questions with respect to what you're -- what you have said. Thank you. MS. SPEIER: All right. Thank you. So Felix Sater was one of your partners, Bayrock. He was Russian. He pled guilty to money laundering in New York State. You're aware of that. MR. TRUMP: I've heard that, yes. MS. SPEIER: He at one time was flashing business cards that said Trump Organization on it. So he was actually employed by The Trump Organization at some point? MR. TRUMP: No, he was never employed by The Trump Organization. MS. SPEIER: But he had his offices in Trump Tower? MR. TRUMP: For a few months, he had an office in Trump Tower, yes. MS. SPEIER: Mr. Sapir, is that his name? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 191 MR. TRUMP: Sater, I believe. MS. SPEIER: Sapir? MR. TRUMP: Sater. MR. FUTERFAS: S-a-t-e-r. MS. SPEIER: No, I know. The other gentleman, S-a-p-i-r. MR. FUTERFAS: Oh, Sapir. MS. SPEIER: What do you know about Mr. Sapir? MR. TRUMP: Not as much. I dealt with his son primarily, Alex. MS. SPEIER: Have you heard that he has been identified by the FBI as a member of a Russian mob in Brighton Beach? MR. TRUMP: He has been dead for a few years. I don't know that now. MS. SPEIER: All right. Let's move on to Trump International Hotel in Toronto. That was heralded as a $500 million, five-star condo hotel. Do you know where the funding of that came from? MR. TRUMP: I don't. We were a brand. We weren't the developer. MS. SPEIER: Well, it evidently came from an Austrian bank. The first partner was a gentleman by the name of Leib Waldman (ph). Do you remember him? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MS. SPEIER: He pled guilty to bankruptcy, fraud, and embezzlement to the United States and then fled to Canada. Shortly thereafter, when that became public, the Ritz-Carlton, I believe, didn't want to do business with him anymore. And then Alex Schnader (ph) became the principal developer. He had no previous hotel or condo experience in terms of developing. And he was a Russian-born Canadian. Do you remember Alex Schnader (ph) ? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 192 MR. TRUMP: I do. MS. SPEIER: And why was he selected since he had no experience in the hotel or condo development business? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. Maybe he wanted to resurrect a good project. I don't remember being involved that early on. MS. SPEIER: So there's been a number of stories about the Trump International Hotel in Toronto and how it failed. And you're aware of that? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MS. SPEIER: And while all the other hotels in Toronto at the time succeeded, this is the only one that failed. Do you have any understanding of why it failed? MR. FUTERFAS: We're going to raise a pertinency objection. Is there any suggestion or any evidence that this situation has anything to do with Russia or any connection to what's being discussed here today? I think, on our side, we've tried to be very -- give very wide berth on the pertinency issues, including certainly Trump SoHo because Mr. Sater was involved and et cetera, but I don't see it as to this Toronto deal, with all due respect. MS. SPEIER: Well, again, he was a Russian-born Canadian. At one point Mr. Schnader (ph) said that 75 percent of the units were sold. A few months later Mr. Trump that said it was 70 percent. Later the development company said 60 percent. A year later the company admitted that fewer than 50 percent were sold. MR. FUTERFAS: I'm going to have to consult, if you don't mind, Madam Congresswoman, for a moment. Thank you. [Discussion off the record.] UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 193 MR. FUTERFAS: Madam Congresswoman, I think we're going to maintain our objection that this has no connection to the election. It has no connection to the matters that are under review by this committee. The fact that someone may have had a particular Canadian Russian, I guess it is, is not, without any further information or understanding, that somehow this is connected to the election or involvement in the election. This is a -- and if I may say, this was a commercial venture with lots of details, lots of moving parts, and really has no connection to the matters. We don't see one at all to the matters that are under investigation by this committee. MS. SPEIER: All right. We'll move on to another project. Let's move on to Trump Ocean Club in Panama. The Trump Organization has, according to the lead broker, whose name is Ventura Nugaria (ph), The Trump Organization had to approve everything because Mr. Trump's name was on the project. So it was more than just a licensing deal. There's some discussion that the prices were inflated on the units. The Trump Organization got a cut on every sale. And Ventura Nugaria (ph) said that two Russians, Mr. Bogdonabov (ph) and Mr. Kazakikov (ph), bought at least 12 units there. Are you familiar with that? MR. TRUMP: I'm not. MR. FUTERFAS: Again, this is a licensing -- this is a licensing project that has no connection, and we have no -- we see no possible connection to the matters under investigation by this committee. And we've -- I think you've seen today, since 10 o'clock and it is now 4 o'clock, that we've been very broad in our view of pertinency. But this is -- we're UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 194 just -- I am not going to permit an inquiry about a commercial venture that has nothing to do with what the matters of inquiry on this committee. MS. SPEIER: Well, let me just suggest to you, it wasn't just a licensing deal. MR. TRUMP: Why is that? MS. SPEIER: The Trump Organization got a cut on every sale. MR. TRUMP: That's how our payment process works on a license deal. We get a piece of the gross sales price. MS. SPEIER: So the extent to which -MR. TRUMP: If Ritz-Carlton does it, they get the same thing, and they also have approval rights over quality aspects because you'd need that for a five-star luxury brand. MS. SPEIER: So my understanding is that you had an upfront fee for the license of $1.2 million, and on the share of sales The Trump Organization was eligible to gain about $75 million from the project? MR. FUTERFAS: Again, Madam Congresswoman, with all due respect, every deal has a contract that has terms with respect to what that contract is. The contract terms with this particular project and how the project went forward, whether it was successful or not successful, did it make as much money as anticipated or not make as much as anticipated or more money than anticipated, whatever it might be, we see no pertinency to the questions here. MS. SPEIER: So -MR. FUTERFAS: And I just -- I am uncomfortable to allow basically general deposition into a commercial transaction that has no -- that I don't see a pertinency to what you all are inquiring about. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 195 MS. SPEIER: One of the things that we are looking at -Ma'am, we have 1 more minute. I apologize. We have 1 more minute. MS. SPEIER: -- is the active measures that Russia was taking during the campaign and after to persuade either the President or the candidate. And in this particular case, you had a dozen units that were purchased by two Russians. MR. TRUMP: In what year? MS. SPEIER: And I regret that I don't have the exact date here. But what is significant is that most of these clients, according to Ventura Nugaria (ph), who was selected by The Trump Organization to be the broker, said that most of his clients never intended to live at Ocean Colony. And so the question becomes, what due diligence do you within The Trump Organization do to make sure that those who invest are complying with the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act? MR. TRUMP: Again, we weren't the sales organization and we weren't the developer. We had licensed it. And if people buy investment property in an emerging market like Panama -- again, I too don't understand the relevance of this. I could have bought units. You could have bought units. Other people bought units in Panama. I don't -- if a Russian did this in 2010, what's the point now -MR. GARTEN: These are legal issues, and I would rather him not answer this question. Time. Mr. Rooney. MR. ROONEY: Well, let me try to boil it down, because I think, having been here for some of the other witnesses where this may be tied up, and, you UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 196 know, I'm not speaking for the minority, but I think that the inference is that because your family operation has been involved in these buildings and these various markets with people that buy or involve themself in The Trump Organization in some way that happen to be of Russian descent or heritage or citizenship, that that transfers up into the 2016 election. And those relationships, whether directly or indirectly or just by some other means, had the effect that there was a preexisting relationship with Russia, and that that preexisting relationship may have in some way inspired the Trump campaign to have a contact with the Russian Government to coordinate, collude, or conspire to help them win the election over Hillary Clinton. So I'm not speaking for them. That's how I'm taking it. So if you want to take a crack at all those seeds being laid over the decades with people that have Russian last names or that are Russian, you know, fast forward all the way up until 2015, 2016, 2017, those relationships have amounted to the coordination, collusion, or conspiracy in the campaign with those Russians or through their proxies and Putin to help the Trump campaign beat Hillary Clinton. Do you think that that's true? MR. TRUMP: Well, I think, based on my knowledge of this stuff, I think if that was true and the relationships were that good, we'd have a lot more deals in Russia and a lot fewer Russians buying anywhere but Russia from us. So, you know, I would have thought that those relationships perhaps would have translated to deals in Russia, if that's the insinuation and instead of having zero deals in Russia we would have had multiple. Instead, I believe that Russians, like Saudis, like the Chinese, it's a brand-conscious society. We were essentially the first ultra luxury real estate UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 197 brand. They view that with an era of, you know, whatever it may be. There's a reason, you know, the biggest Italian retailers in the world in fashion houses have places in Moscow, in Shanghai, et cetera, et cetera, because that's valuable to a lot of those markets. And perhaps that's why they're buying Trump properties elsewhere around the world, you know. Or perhaps they're looking to get their money out of Russia as well because they're concerned about their own government. I can't speak to them. It could be any number or one of those issues. But I imagine, again, if our relationships were that solid and that good with Russia, we would have had a lot more actual business ventures in Russia or with Russians. MR. ROONEY: Peter, did you have a question? MR. KING: Mr. Trump, maybe you could put some of this in perspective for me, especially with the New York real estate market. MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. KING: Isn't it common for countries like Russia -- people from Russia, China, Saudi Arabia to buy condominiums in New York and never even live in them, just buy them to invest? MR. TRUMP: Very much so, especially when you break it down into high end. You know, the ultra luxury stuff, the new construction builds that, you know, we did when our primary focus was as a developer, that would be oftentimes majority owned. Those are people that, you know, they may not be able to get into a co-op if they wanted to, so they're buying new construction, new type builds. And so we would have always had a disproportionate amount of foreign investment in our buildings by the nature of what we're building and the brand. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 198 MR. KING: My understanding is particularly Manhattan and certainly China would have a tremendous amount of investment in condominiums? MR. TRUMP: Certainly much more so than Russia currently, yes. MR. KING: Also, again, to clarify for me, could you lay out the distinctions between a developer and a licensor, exactly what that means to you and The Trump Organization? MR. TRUMP: Yeah. We're a developer. We're acquiring the land. We're designing the building. We're building the building. We're getting construction financing. We're doing the marketing usually, if we were doing it ourselves as developer. If we're the licensor, we're giving another developer who's going to be building a set of guidelines, some advice as to what we would and would not accept in terms of quality of finishes, design layout, maybe some help on marketing. But they are going out there doing the selling. They are going out there raising the equity. They are going out there -- or supplying it themselves -- going out and obtaining construction financing and/or any other mezzanine financing that would be required to bridge the gap between equity and what it takes to get the building done. You know, we're basically a brand, but because we're an ultra luxury brand we can't just haphazardly say, "Congratulations, you do whatever you want with it. You call it Trump, and we'll live with what you build." We do have to have some guidelines as to the quality of ultimately what is built. But it is nowhere near as active an involvement as if we're building the stuff ourselves. MR. KING: If you're a licensor, even a developer, if a person purchases a UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 199 condominium, are there any restrictions on whom you can sell that to? I mean, do you monitor that? MR. TRUMP: That would really be up to them, up to the seller. In most cases, you know, we wouldn't even be involved in the sales process. They would have to vet that accordingly. And, you know, they would do with that as they see fit. I'm not aware of really any restrictions to that, no. MR. FUTERFAS: My understanding is, not that I'm a real estate lawyer in New York, but if you buy a condominium, you own it fee simple. So you own your home. So it's just like if you have a home in a suburban place, no one is going to tell you who you can sell it to or not to. MR. TRUMP: Well, and that was part of my point that I was making earlier, which is that Trump Tower, it was built in 1982. The person who bought from my father when he was sponsor-slash-developer at the time, once he owns it, he owns it. So that person can sell to whoever he wants, even if he sells to a Russian. We have no ability to prevent that sale. The building could be 100 percent Russian. It doesn't mean we have any relationship to those people at all. They could be buying from the first purchaser or they could be buying from the 12th purchaser over a 32-, 33-year-old building. MR. KING: So it's not your responsibility in your course of business to be monitoring who's living in each unit in your condominiums -MR. TRUMP: We wouldn't even be allowed to by law. I mean, if someone owns something fee simple, we can't tell them who -- we can't restrict them from selling their property to someone else. MR. KING: Fee simple. I feel like I'm back in law school. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 200 Tom. Thank you. MR. ROONEY: So just to be clear, can you -- do you know of any of the people that were involved in the Trump Toronto project, whether as developer or licensor, that had any influence on the Trump campaign and its coordination with the Russian Government to assist the Trump campaign in beating Ms. Clinton? MR. TRUMP: Not in Trump Toronto or any other Trump project. MR. ROONEY: Okay. Then I won't go into any other because you said any other. MR. TRUMP: I'll save you the hassle. MR. ROONEY: I could go through them all. But, I mean, I just think that, you know, I think that it's important that we hear that from you directly because I think that's where a lot of these questions were going and going to go. So hopefully that answers them, but I suspect that I could be wrong. Ten minutes to go in this vote, three votes. What would you like to do? MR. SCHIFF: I suggest we just recess until we come back. I'm not sure that it would do much -- add much value to have staff ask questions while we're gone if we just need to go over then back when we return. So I would just suggest we come back immediately after votes. MR. ROONEY: Do you have any idea how many more questions or how much time -MR. SCHIFF: You know, we've gone through the bulk of the areas, but we still have additional questions. But I think we're certainly far closer to the end than we were the beginning. And notwithstanding my colleague's representation to the contrary, everyone expects you to be here a long time. It's not going to be newsworthy UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 201 how many hours it is. So that's not our goal at all. We just want to make sure we do a thorough job. So we'll be as expeditious as possible when we get back, but that would be my suggestion. MR. ROONEY: Okay. We'll stand adjourned. [Recess.] UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 202 [4:52 p.m.] MR. CONAWAY: Ms. Speier. MS. SPEIER: Okay. I just want to get clarification on two things, and then I have one other set of questions. Does The Trump Organization allow foreign governments, foreign officials, foreign government-owned entities to buy property using shell companies? MR. TRUMP: I don't know that we have a specific policy on the matter. MS. SPEIER: So in order to do the due diligence necessary under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, how do you go about doing it? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. I don't know that selling -MR. FUTERFAS: I think that's a legal -MR. TRUMP: I guess you'd have to refer to legal department. MR. FUTERFAS: Yeah, that's a legal question. MS. SPEIER: So are you familiar with the Taj Mahal project, Trump Taj Mahal? MR. TRUMP: I am vaguely, but it was a public casino company, so I wasn't involved in it at all. MS. SPEIER: Well, the Federal agency called FinCEN imposed a $10 million civil penalty that was levied in 2015, but it covered a period back to 2003, for not maintaining an effective anti-money laundering program. MR. TRUMP: I wasn't involved. I don't know anything about it. MS. SPEIER: Do you have strong protections in place to guard against doing business with entities that are trying to launder money? MR. TRUMP: You'd have to speak to the legal department. But, again, the Trump Taj Mahal, in my recent memory, was a public company that was UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 203 operated as such and basically had our name on it. We were a minority shareholder. MS. SPEIER: Okay. Can you tell us what the nature of The Trump Organization's relationship is with Deutsche Bank? MR. TRUMP: They are a lender. MS. SPEIER: Do you know approximately how much they have lent to The Trump Organization? MR. TRUMP: They're a primary lender on three of our projects, the Old Post Office in Washington, D.C., our building in Chicago, and the Trump National Doral down in Florida. MS. SPEIER: How about 40 Wall Street? MR. GARTEN: What's the pertinence of this question? MR. TRUMP: I don't -- I don't know. MS. SPEIER: How about Trump World Tower? MR. TRUMP: I don't know that Trump World Tower has any financing on it right now. They may have been a construction lender or something like that at the time when it was built in the mid-'90s, but I don't believe there's any mortgage on that building now. It's a condominium. It's been sold out for years. MS. SPEIER: And then Trump International Hotel and Tower in Chicago? That's one of the ones you referenced. MR. TRUMP: Yes, it is. MS. SPEIER: And that's $640 million, correct? MR. TRUMP: That was the construction loan. I believe the remaining debt is, what -- yeah, the remaining debt on that building is about $40 million in a separate loan that had nothing to do with the construction loan. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 204 MS. SPEIER: Forty million, is that what you said? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MS. SPEIER: Is that the personal guarantee? MR. TRUMP: That is personal guaranteed. MR. TRUMP: Yes. MS. SPEIER: And the Post Office then is for how much? MR. TRUMP: Approximately 200? MR. FUTERFAS: I'm just going to -- we're answering these questions. Again, Congresswoman Speier, can someone state the nature of the pertinence of these questions to this -MS. SPEIER: Sure, of course. So there is a relationship between -- there's Deutsche Bank Moscow, which has the -- which owns basically all the business of VTB, which is the Kremlin bank. MR. TRUMP: I don't understand what the -- Deutsche Bank has a branch in Moscow, so that means -MR. FUTERFAS: Is that a question for us, or is that a statement? MS. SPEIER: No. I'm just telling you what the relationship is. You wanted to know what it had to do with Russia. MR. FUTERFAS: So we understand Deutsche Bank has either a separate entity or a separate branch in Moscow that has some kind of relationship with the Russian Government or the Kremlin. And then the question is whether funding domestically for domestic projects from Deutsche Bank here in New York -- or not here in New York, we're in Washington -- in New York City is -- I'm just trying to connect those dots about pertinence. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 205 MS. SPEIER: So what we're trying to determine is whether or not Russia has made available to Deutsche Bank financial resources for The Trump Organization? MR. TRUMP: I don't know that, no. And I've never heard of Deutsche Bank Moscow or that branch. MS. SPEIER: Okay. So one of the allegations concerning Deutsche Bank is that there was a period of time when the President's properties were at risk for default, and he had difficulty finding a bank that would lend to him. Are you familiar with that time period? MR. TRUMP: Yes, the early '90s. MS. SPEIER: Well, it was actually -- press reports indicate that your father attempted in 2008 to default on some $330 million owed to Deutsche Bank, which led to competing lawsuits from Deutsche Bank and your father. Do you remember that? MR. GARTEN: Pertinence? MR. TRUMP: Yeah. MR. FUTERFAS: Again, I'm not -- I'd like -- I think we would require some kind of -- again, to connect the dots on pertinency of these issues to this committee's investigation. It seems all to arise from this idea that Deutsche Bank has a branch or maybe even a separate entity in Moscow and therefore any of the other dealings that other branches or other, in fact, separate entities of Deutsche Bank, which they may be, somehow is connected or influenced. I mean, that seems to be the nature of connecting the dots, but I think the question is simply of Mr. Trump, Jr. whether he's aware of any connection or UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 206 influence by Russia to any of the loans or any of the financial dealings that he's aware of. I mean, I think that's the only question, because beyond that, these are facts that, you know, I think are just unknown to us. MS. SPEIER: Well, you know, Deutsche Bank is being fined now by the New York State Department of Financial Services to the tune of about $475 million and another 163 million pounds by the London Financial Conduct Authority due to money laundering schemes. So we're trying to see to what extent Donald Trump, Sr., who had poor credit during this time, was countersuing Deutsche Bank, and then was successful in getting two mortgages against Trump National Doral Resort in Miami, as well as a $170 million loan to finish his hotel in Washington in The Old Post Office. MR. TRUMP: First of all -MR. FUTERFAS: No, before you answer, could we caucus on this, if you don't mind, Madam Congresswoman? MS. SPEIER: Sure. MR. FUTERFAS: Thank you. [Discussion off the record.] MR. FUTERFAS: I think -- thank you, Madam Congresswoman. I think what we would be willing to do to stay within the pertinency boundaries, I guess, is answer questions on whether he has any knowledge of relationship or connection between Deutsche Bank and Russia or Russian influence with respect to loans that he's aware of with Deutsche Bank. But I think beyond that, we're -- I think we'd be running pretty far afield on the pertinency questions. MS. SPEIER: Okay. So let me ask it this way. Are you aware of any Russian financial support in securing or playing any role in Deutsche Bank loans UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 207 to The Trump Organization? MR. TRUMP: No, I'm not. MS. SPEIER: To your father? MR. TRUMP: No, I'm not. MS. SPEIER: To you? MR. TRUMP: No, I'm not. MS. SPEIER: To any member of your family? MR. TRUMP: Not that I'm aware of, no. MS. SPEIER: Jared Kushner? MR. TRUMP: Not that I'm aware of. MS. SPEIER: So why do you think Deutsche Bank was willing to give you these loans, that I guess amount to about $300 million, due in 2023 and 2024, respectively, when no other bank would -MR. TRUMP: I don't know that -- I don't know what you're talking about when it comes to no other bank would. That's just simply not accurate. MS. SPEIER: So you do have loans with other banks? MR. TRUMP: We have loans. We have relationships with other banks. We've built a good relationship with Deutsche Bank Private Wealth. Part of that deal is that if we personally guarantee the loans, you can get a very low-interest rate loan, so we'll risk that guarantee as opposed to it just being collateralized by the project with our own cash, if we believe the projects to be good and that we can make them worth our while. Oftentimes, when you have lender relationships, if those relationships are good, it's easy to do another deal with someone because you just negotiated a similar deal. And so we have done quite a few deals as of late with Deutsche UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 208 Bank. But we've used Deutsche Bank for decades as well, and we've used other banks throughout the years. But I'm not aware of anything related to Russia and Deutsche Bank. MS. SPEIER: So do you know Rosemary Robalic (ph)? MR. TRUMP: Yes, I do. MS. SPEIER: And how do you know her? MR. TRUMP: She's one of the heads of Deutsche Bank Private Wealth that we've dealt with. MS. SPEIER: And how did you meet her? MR. TRUMP: I met her through Jared Kushner. MS. SPEIER: And how long ago was this? MR. TRUMP: Maybe 2011. I don't want to speak exactly, but approximately. MS. SPEIER: And has she been your major contact in terms of acquiring these loans then? MR. TRUMP: Yes, she has. MS. SPEIER: Is there anyone else at Deutsche Bank that The Trump Organization has worked with? MR. TRUMP: Well, Dominic Scousey (ph) would be part of her -- with, you know -- her partner in that division. MS. SPEIER: Okay. I think that's it for me. Thank you. MR. FUTERFAS: Thank you. MS. SPEIER: I yield. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Castro. MR. CASTRO: Thank you. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 209 I want to ask you some basic questions first that we haven't gone over. The first one is, is there any reason why today your memory would be impaired about the questions or events you've been asked about? Any medical condition? Any medication? Anything that would impair your memory? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. CASTRO: Let me ask you also about -- and we'll use the time period January 1, 2015, to the present day -- any kind of communication, methods, and devices that you used. So for that period between January 1 and the present day, how many email addresses did you use? MR. TRUMP: Email addresses? I believe, two. I have my work one and a personal one. Mr. Castro, 1 minute, sir. MR. CASTRO: Okay. How about telephone numbers? MR. TRUMP: Primarily my cell phone, but I have a work line, and I think I have a home phone number too, but I don't know what it is. MR. CASTRO: Have you ever -- did you -- during that period -MR. TRUMP: Never used it. MR. CASTRO: -- did you ever use a burner phone that was disposable? MR. TRUMP: No. And any phone that I've had, I've given to counsel to be able to review to be able to hand over the appropriate information. MS. SPEIER: And the AT&T phone for which you produced documents, is that your personal cell phone? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. If you give me the number, I can tell you. MR. CASTRO: I'll try to -- I'll get it back to you after we break. MR. TRUMP: Sure. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 210 MR. CASTRO: But my last question, then I'll turn it back over. What about encrypted messaging apps, Signal, for example, and so forth, which of those, if any, have you used during that period? MR. TRUMP: I've used WhatsApp, I believe. Maybe -- I don't know if FaceTime is considered one of those. But like I said, anything that I've had, any phone like that, I've handed to counsel to be, you know, appropriately forensically searched. MR. CASTRO: I'll turn it back and then I'll resume. MR. CONAWAY: We don't have any questions. MR. CASTRO: Okay. How about direct messaging through Twitter, obviously? What about through Facebook? MR. TRUMP: I believe we've looked at all of that. MR. CASTRO: But I'm asking, which of these platforms have you used? MR. TRUMP: Facebook, I may have used, Twitter, and Instagram are really the only social media platforms I've used. So those have all been checked. MR. CASTRO: So in response to what the committee asked for, you reviewed all of these platforms, your email addresses, your telephone numbers, where you may have received texts, for example, or emails, your Instagram, your FaceTime, your Facebook, your Twitter, everything? MR. TRUMP: Yes, as far as I'm aware. MR. CASTRO: Okay. Have you been interviewed or asked to submit documents by Special Counsel Mueller? MR. FUTERFAS: I'm going to not have him answer on pertinency ground. I think what another committee or agency is doing is not pertinent to the factual questions that are -- if it makes it easier for you, you could just assume that we've UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 211 had inquiries from a number of committees and other sources and have responded appropriately thereto. MR. CASTRO: Okay. I mean, just so you know, we've asked that of other witnesses as well, so it's not just a question that's particular to you. MR. FUTERFAS: Yeah. MR. TRUMP: Understood. MR. CASTRO: Let me ask you about a speech that you gave in Paris. This was late in the campaign. Is that right? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. CASTRO: When abouts was it? MR. TRUMP: I believe it was early, mid-October of 2016. MR. CASTRO: Now, earlier you said that you'd been very busy traveling a lot on the campaign and I imagine for business as well. How do you decide to go in October, a few weeks before the election, to Paris to give a speech? Was it the 85,000, or was it something else? MR. TRUMP: I have always supplemented some of my income public speaking. I've been doing that for decades. So, yeah, I did a 24-hour turnaround trip to do that. MR. CASTRO: How did that invitation come to you? MR. TRUMP: It came through someone who had booked me for numerous speaking engagements in the past. MR. CASTRO: Jan Jones? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. CASTRO: And can you describe the person or persons who were inviting you to go speak, what their role is or who they are? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 212 MR. TRUMP: A gentleman named Fabien Baussart. He's a, I guess, Parisian businessman who also runs this think tank, I forget what the acronym was, political think tank. They have had Kofi Anan speak. They have had numerous U.S. politicians speak there, and they asked me to speak. MR. CASTRO: Now, you're aware that the Center of Political and Foreign Affairs Recently nominated Vladimir Putin for a Nobel peace prize? MR. TRUMP: I am not. MR. CASTRO: You're not aware of that? MR. TRUMP: I'm not aware of that. MR. CASTRO: And a key organizer of this event, Ronda Cassis (ph), did you meet her? MR. TRUMP: Yes, I did. MR. CASTRO: She told reporters that she flew to Moscow after the event and discussed details of your dinner with Mikhail Bogonov (ph), the deputy head of Russia's Foreign Ministry. Did Fabien or did Ronda (ph) communicate to you that they were going to go to Moscow and speak about what you spoke about? MR. TRUMP: No, not to my recollection. Ronda (ph) is Fabien's wife, so in looking at this I didn't think to see what his wife was. We had lunch, as I would with anyone who was hosting me at a speaking engagement like this. MR. CASTRO: Now, you said earlier that you're not a foreign policy expert? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. CASTRO: That's why you didn't weigh in on a lot of foreign policy stuff? MR. TRUMP: Correct. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 213 MR. CASTRO: But you traveled to Paris to speak at a foreign policy think tank and were paid $85,000 to do it. So why go speak at a foreign policy think tank in Paris if you're not a foreign policy expert? MR. TRUMP: Because they weren't inquiring about foreign policy. Frankly, these were foreign policy-type people, foreign people who are very involved in politics, and they're looking at what's going on in this American election where this guy comes out of nowhere, and, frankly, they were much less concerned about policy. And I was clear before going over there that I can't speak to the policies of the campaign in that great of detail, but I could speak to what was going on in the ground, what I was witnessing traveling through Middle America, and I'd be able to speak to that. Because they were very curious, because over there, as you've probably read, people had no idea what was going on. Frankly, people here didn't have any idea what was going on to have this sort of upwelling. So I was someone who could speak quite accurately to what I was witnessing. MR. CASTRO: You said that you made that clear to the organizers, or to Jan, I imagine? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. CASTRO: Where is that reflected in the documents that you produced? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. I had spoken to Jan, and I said it there. MR. CASTRO: So you're stating that you did this by phone? MR. TRUMP: I'm saying I've communicated with Jan by email, by phone, and I said it at the event, that I'm not here as a foreign policy wonk. I can discuss UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 214 what I know. MR. CASTRO: Right. But you just said that before you went over there you communicated that? MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. CASTRO: I'm asking you -- I'm saying I didn't see that in the documents you produced which were emails. So are you saying that you did that by some other means, such as by telephone? MR. TRUMP: I must have, I guess, yes, because it was -MR. CASTRO: Are you willing to produce those phone records? MR. TRUMP: I have no idea. I don't know where they are. MR. FUTERFAS: We will look. Are you making -- let me be clear -- are you making a request -MR. CASTRO: Yes. MR. FUTERFAS: -- for phone calls around this period of time that he may have had with -MR. CASTRO: To the organizers. MR. TRUMP: Yeah. I may have -- I don't know when I would have spoken to Jan, but it could have been weeks before an event like this. MR. CASTRO: Sure. MR. FUTERFAS: I understand. We will take a period of time before, maybe we will go back a month or 6 weeks or whatever it is, and any phone calls that we find between them we will produce. MR. CASTRO: Just for the record, if there is no telephone call or record of a telephone call, then I will assume that message was not communicated, because there's no production of documents that indicates that, and there would UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 215 be no phone call if you don't produce them. MR. FUTERFAS: I don't have those documents in front of me. I understand what you're saying. And we'll review the documents we've produced, and we will also look for records, cell phone records in advance of that. MR. CASTRO: Thank you. What did you they -- what did you discuss at the dinner that caused her to go to Moscow to meet with a senior Russian official? MR. FUTERFAS: Object to the form of the question. It assumes causation and -- but, nonetheless, I'll let you answer. MR. TRUMP: I don't know that I spoke to anything that would have caused her to go there. MR. CASTRO: Well, let me ask you this, because in the contract on the speech it says that you may speak about whatever you like. So they were paying you $85,000 to go there and talk about whatever you wanted. What did you speak about? MR. TRUMP: It was a Chattam (ph) House rules-type roundtable, probably 35, 40 businessmen, politicians, in a room, and they were asking me questions about what was going on in the U.S. election. It was clearly foreign to them what was happening, and it was a free for all. If people did ask questions of a more foreign policy nature, I may have given them my opinion, but not based on anything other than my opinion, making it clear that I was not there to speak as a foreign policy wonk. MR. CASTRO: Were there any Russians there? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. CASTRO: Did you receive a guest list? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 216 MR. TRUMP: I may have. I don't recall. MR. CASTRO: Usually at these events -- all of us have been part of them -- they'll give you a heads-up about who's supposed to attend. They don't want to just throw you to the wolves, I don't know who I'm talking to. MR. TRUMP: They may have. I just don't remember. MR. CASTRO: Who would have provided that to you? MR. TRUMP: Presumably Jan or Fabien. I don't know. MR. CASTRO: Who traveled with you to Paris? MR. TRUMP: I went by myself. MR. CASTRO: In the contract, it says that they were willing to pay for two people to go. MR. TRUMP: I went by myself. MR. CASTRO: No assistant? Nobody with you? MR. TRUMP: Don't need an assistant for a 24-hour turnaround. MR. CASTRO: All right. Let me ask you about WikiLeaks. And I know you went over most of this with Congressman Swalwell, so I'm not going to retread the whole thing. But let me take you to -- let me see -- it's the document that is Bates stamped TrumpOrg_13_00001. MR. TRUMP: I don't have that one. MR. CASTRO: Okay. Let me ask you about that document. MR. FUTERFAS: If you could give us 1 minute just to review. MR. CASTRO: Sure. [Discussion off the record.] MR. TRUMP: Okay. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 217 MR. CASTRO: It's from Michael Erickson (ph). Who is Michael Erickson (ph)? MR. TRUMP: I don't have any recollection of a Michael Erickson (ph). MR. CASTRO: The email is sent to several people, including yourself. You said that your father doesn't really use email. You'll notice in this email it seems that this message is sent to some kind of email address of his. Is that correct? MR. TRUMP: I don't know what that is. I don't know -- I don't know if it's accurate. I don't know if they just put in an email that says . I have no idea. I can't see what the email is. I don't even know what my father's email is, if he has one, but he doesn't use it actively because he doesn't own -- doesn't even use a computer. MR. CASTRO: Well, you produced this document, so I assume that it was in one of your email accounts. Is that fair to say? MR. TRUMP: I believe that it was. But I get stuff from people that -- you know, people put my email address online every few months, and I get a bunch of people that do the same thing and then they start bombarding you with stuff. I may have met Michael Erickson (ph). I don't know who it is right now. MR. CASTRO: Okay. Well, let's try to -- because he includes -- in the message he includes it to your father and to you, and then he cc's or copies Michael Cohen. Who is Michael Cohen in the organization? MR. TRUMP: He's an attorney. MR. CASTRO: He includes MR. TRUMP: I don't know who that is. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE MR. CASTRO: 218 , who would that be? MR. TRUMP: I have no idea who that is, either. MR. CASTRO: Who is ? MR. TRUMP: She's someone in our marketing group. MR. CASTRO: What's her title? Do you know? MR. TRUMP: She's the head of the marketing division. MR. CASTRO: He includes MR. TRUMP: Who is ? . MR. CASTRO: And in the body of the email he talks about WikiLeaks uploading archived files from the DNC and says that it's too big to send you by email attachments, then gives you a website address where you can download it. And then he gives you a decryption key that's quite long. Do you remember this email? MR. TRUMP: I don't. Mr. Castro, 1 minute, sir. MR. CASTRO: Okay. Did you check out the website and use the decryption key? MR. TRUMP: No, not that I recall. MR. CASTRO: Have you ever done business or The Trump Organization done business with Aviation Management, Inc., or Drone (ph) Cohabitation Services, LLC? MR. TRUMP: Not that I'm aware of. MR. CASTRO: I yield. MR. CONAWAY: Tom. All right. Mr. Schiff for 15 minutes. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 219 MR. SCHIFF: I think we're getting close to the end. I have a few cleanup questions, and then I'm going to pass to my colleagues for a couple other items that you may or may not have information about. With respect to Deutsche Bank, did you ever have any conversations with anyone at Deutsche Bank about due diligence Deutsche Bank was doing on the issue of money laundering? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. SCHIFF: Did anyone from Deutsche Bank ever discuss with you whether Russians or others were laundering money through Trump properties? MR. TRUMP: No, not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: Did anyone outside of Deutsche Bank discuss with you whether Russians were using your properties to launder money? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: Did it ever come to your attention -- whether people discussed it with you or not -- did it ever come to your attention that people were using properties in your buildings, that is Trump Organization buildings, to launder money? MR. TRUMP: No, not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: After the meeting at Trump Tower, did you ever tell Steve Bannon that you went to discuss the meeting with your father? MR. TRUMP: Not that I remember, no. MR. SCHIFF: Well, you would remember if you told him that, wouldn't you? MR. TRUMP: I probably would if I told him that, but I don't remember speaking to anyone about it afterwards. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 220 MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall telling anyone that you went to talk to your father right after the Trump Tower meeting? MR. TRUMP: I wouldn't have gone to speak with my father right after the Trump Tower meeting. But, no, I don't recall speaking to him about it. MR. SCHIFF: Or telling anyone that you had? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: You mentioned that you had done speaking engagements before the one in Paris. Were you ever offered as much as 85,000 for a speech before? MR. TRUMP: I've been offered more. MR. SCHIFF: Were you offered more before your father ran for President? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SCHIFF: And when was that? MR. TRUMP: I would have given -- I gave a six-figure speech in Dubai in maybe 2012. MR. SCHIFF: You mentioned at the Paris speech that there were politicians in attendance. Politicians from where? MR. TRUMP: I believe a few European ambassadors, some media organizations, some business people. It was a little bit of a mix. MR. SCHIFF: Do you know whether there were ambassadors from Russia or Hungary present? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: You've received text messages from Emin Agalarov, haven't you? MR. TRUMP: I believe that -- I don't remember. I may have. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 221 MR. FUTERFAS: I'm sorry. We have to -MR. TRUMP: If you have them, I'd look at them. MR. FUTERFAS: We may have to see the documents. I just don't -- yeah, if we could see. Oh, okay. Thank you. MR. SCHIFF: And what you're looking at, is that a text message from Emin dated November 10 of last year expressing congratulations on the win from Emin and Aras Agalarov? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SCHIFF: And would this have come from -- that one is addressed from both Emin and Aras. Would that have come from Emin's phone? MR. TRUMP: I imagine so. I don't recall ever having communications with Aras, so probably. MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall texting Emin at all around the time of the Trump Tower meeting? MR. TRUMP: I don't. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 222 [5:25 p.m.] MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall getting any voicemail messages at any time from Emin Agalarov? MR. TRUMP: I don't. We didn't communicate all that often. MR. SCHIFF: Can you tell us whether he was going to leave you a message it would be more likely by text or by voicemail? MR. TRUMP: I have no idea. MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Castro, were you finished with your questions? MR. CASTRO: I just have like two or three more. MR. SCHIFF: Okay. Mr. Castro and then Mr. Swalwell. MR. CASTRO: You mentioned earlier, when Mr. Swalwell was questioning you about your exchanges with WikiLeaks, especially when they were sending you direct messages, that you considered them a kind of news organization. Is that right? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. CASTRO: I would like to refer to the document that is Bates stamped DJTJR01269. And it is an exchange, if I am correct, it was 11/8/16, on Election Day. And I will read it. It says, "Hi, Don. If your father loses, we think it is much more interesting he does not concede and spends time challenging the media and other types of rigging that occurred. Does a media organization give you political advice about claiming that an election was rigged? MR. FUTERFAS: I am going to object to the question. It's been asked and answered. And that question specifically was asked by a colleague of yours an hour, an hour-and-a-half ago. I am really not going to permit him to answer UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 223 questions that have been asked and answered specifically and are repetitive. MR. CASTRO: About whether he still believed, after reading this message about rigging, and -- okay. Let me ask you a different question. Do you think they were trying to give you political advice there? MR. TRUMP: I don't know what they were trying to say. I don't even know if I saw it at the time, so, you know, if they are trying to create controversy perhaps. I don't remember seeing it until I produced it for this committee or the other committees. MR. CASTRO: Did you see WikiLeaks as unbiased, as a neutral arbiter? MR. TRUMP: I don't know that I had an opinion. I think if they had salacious information on my father, there is little doubt in my mind that they would be dropping that to create a story. I think they were very opportunistic. MR. CASTRO: So on October 21st, 2016, on the previous page, which is Bates stamped DJTJR01268, they say, quote, "If we publish, then it will dramatically improve the perception of our impartiality. This is the real kicker. That means that the vast amount of stuff that we are publishing about Clinton will have much higher impact." Do you perceive that as impartial? That was not asked before. MR. FUTERFAS: Let me just state my objection. I recall very specifically that Mr. Trump, Jr. was asked specifically the basis for his understanding or characterization for it is a type of media organization. And he specifically answered before that he felt they were, as he just said, opportunistic. These are questions and answers that were treaded hours ago. MR. TRUMP: I think I can answer that. I mean, I think they will tell me what they think I want to hear for me to give them what they're looking for, which is UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 224 a tax return. So -MR. CASTRO: So you didn't perceive that they were biased towards -MR. FUTERFAS: Can you let my client finish his answer? MR. CASTRO: Sure. MR. TRUMP: So, again, I don't think that's there and that's to impartiality. I don't know that there's much impartiality in any media today. MR. CASTRO: So Jake Tapper and these folks were saying, Hey, you ought to challenge the election? MR. TRUMP: I didn't say that either, but plenty of people were asking me for information as well, so -- along the way. MR. CASTRO: I yield. MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Trump, my colleague, Mr. Castro, asked you about Signal. Did you use Signal in 2016 or 2017? MR. TRUMP: Not to my recollection. MR. SWALWELL: Are there any apps that you had in the period he described from January 2015 to the present day that you have since deleted from your phone? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. SWALWELL: Did you go to the annual NRA meeting in Kentucky in May 2016? MR. TRUMP: I did. MR. SWALWELL: Who invited you? MR. TRUMP: Various people at the NRA, probably Chris Cox. MR. SWALWELL: I would like to hand you an email sent on May 10, 2016, from Paul Erickson to Rick Dearborn. And while I do that, can I just ask do you UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 225 know who Paul Erickson is? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. SWALWELL: Do you know who Rick Dearborn is? MR. TRUMP: I do. MR. SWALWELL: Who is Rick Dearborn? MR. TRUMP: He was Jeff Sessions' chief of staff, and he was involved with our campaign, primarily on the transition team. MR. SWALWELL: The subject of that email is "Kremlin connection." Is that correct? MR. TRUMP: I believe it is. Can I read it? MR. SWALWELL: Yes. And counsel, if you could also read the Bates stamp for us just for the record. MR. FUTERFAS: I don't see a Bates stamp on my copy. Those are actually not Bates stamped. MR. SWALWELL: Can I enter that as Exhibit 3? MR. CONAWAY: Without objection. [Trump Exhibit No. 3 Was marked for identification.] MR. TRUMP: Okay. MR. SWALWELL: Prior to this moment, had you seen that email before? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SWALWELL: The email says in part, "Happenstance and sometimes the international reach of the NRA placed me in a position a couple years ago to slowly begin cultivating a back channel to President Putin's Kremlin. Russia is quietly but actively seeking a dialogue with the U.S. that isn't forthcoming under UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 226 the current administration." The email goes on to say that "Russia planned to use the NRA's annual convention to make first contact with the Trump campaign." Who is the emissary referred to in this email? MR. TRUMP: I don't know. MR. SWALWELL: Were you familiar with this effort to have a Kremlin connection at the NRA meeting in Kentucky? MR. TRUMP: As it relates to through Rick Dearborn or Paul Erickson, no. MR. SWALWELL: As it relates to anyone. Were you aware of any effort at the NRA convention in Kentucky for Russians to reach out to you or anyone with the campaign? MR. TRUMP: I was made aware, I believe, at the time, that a friend, acquaintance that was maybe a former top guy at the NRA had an associate or a friend who was a Russian. He asked if I would say hello to him. MR. SWALWELL: Who was your acquaintance? MR. TRUMP: Was that David -MR. FUTERFAS: Your recollection. Whatever you recall. MR. TRUMP: I don't recall exactly. MR. SWALWELL: Who was the person, the Russian that he wanted you to talk to at the meeting? MR. TRUMP: I am not sure if I knew at the time, but it turns out to be Mr. Torshin. MR. SWALWELL: Is that Alexander Torshin? MR. TRUMP: I believe so. MR. SWALWELL: Did you meet Mr. Torshin at the NRA meeting? MR. TRUMP: Yes. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 227 MR. SWALWELL: Where did you meet him? MR. TRUMP: He was at a dinner, meaning at a restaurant that I was eating dinner at with a large group of people. He wasn't part of our group. MR. SWALWELL: Did you speak with Mr. Torshin? MR. TRUMP: Briefly. MR. SWALWELL: What did you discuss? MR. TRUMP: We discussed primarily stuff as it related to shooting and hunting. And that he was a big gun enthusiast. MR. SWALWELL: Did you talk about the Presidential campaign that was underway? MR. TRUMP: Not really, no. MR. SWALWELL: So this is 2 months before the Republican convention, and 6 months before the general election and the Presidential campaign wasn't discussed at all? MR. TRUMP: I didn't think I had anything to speak with him about that. MR. SWALWELL: Did he speak with you about it? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. We exchanged casual hellos, small talk, and I went back to my dinner. MR. SWALWELL: Was he with anyone else when he spoke to you? MR. TRUMP: He had a couple people in the room, yes. MR. SWALWELL: Did you know if they were affiliated with Russia in any way? MR. TRUMP: I don't know for certain, no. MR. SWALWELL: Did you exchange contact information with Mr. Torshin? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. And just prepping for this, I checked my UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 228 contacts, and he is not in my contacts. MR. SWALWELL: I would like to hand you another email dated May 17, 2016, from Rick Dearborn to Jared Kushner, with copies to Paul Manafort and Rick Gates. Actually, I will come back to that in a moment. Mr. Torshin is described as a deputy governor of the Bank of Russia. Did you know that when you met with him in Kentucky? MR. TRUMP: I don't remember. MR. SWALWELL: He also served as a Russian senator for 14 years. Did you know that? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. MR. SWALWELL: Were there any other persons who you knew to be Russians that you met with while you were in Kentucky for the NRA convention? MR. TRUMP: I recently read about a lady, Batina (ph) something. MR. SWALWELL: Is that Maria Batina (ph)? MR. TRUMP: Maybe that's what it is? MR. SWALWELL: Did you meet with her. MR. TRUMP: I saw her there at this meeting, and she was at the NRA show, but no, I didn't have a meeting with her. Casual niceties again. MR. SWALWELL: What is a casual nicety? MR. TRUMP: Hello. Brief conversation in the room in front of someone. And that's the extent of it. MR. SWALWELL: Did you talk with Ms. Batina (ph) at all about the Presidential election in the United States? MR. TRUMP: No, not that I recall. MR. SWALWELL: Did she mention it to you? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 229 MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. MR. SWALWELL: Did anyone during that conference in Louisville mention anything that related to the email that I just showed you, which was a Kremlin connection to the campaign? MR. TRUMP: No, not at all. MR. SWALWELL: Did you learn from anyone else -- let me ask this. Who else from the campaign was there? MR. TRUMP: My father came in, gave a speech, and left. So whoever was with him. But he literally came in, gave a speech, and left. I stayed around. MR. SWALWELL: How long was your father there? MR. TRUMP: A few hours. MR. SWALWELL: Did he meet with Mr. Torshin? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SWALWELL: Did your father meet with Ms. Batina (ph)? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SWALWELL: Did they have casual niceties? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SWALWELL: Were there any other Russians there that you saw your father interact with at the May 2016, Kentucky NRA meeting? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. SWALWELL: Who else from the campaign besides your father was there? MR. TRUMP: Excuse me? MR. SWALWELL: Who else besides your father? MR. TRUMP: Was there? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 230 MR. SWALWELL: Yeah, of the senior principals. MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. MR. SWALWELL: Do you remember Mr. Kushner being there? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SWALWELL: Your sister Ivanka? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SWALWELL: Paul Manafort? MR. TRUMP: I have no idea who was with him. MR. CONAWAY: Trey? MR. GOWDY: Do you know Paul Erickson? MR. TRUMP: Like I said, I may have met, but I couldn't tell you who he is right now. MR. GOWDY: Nothing more than the presentation of a gift for Mrs. Trump tied to the Russian Orthodox church. I guess if you are married there would be two Mrs. Trumps, and if Erik's married there would be three Mrs. Trumps. Do you know which Mrs. Trump they are making reference to in the email? MR. TRUMP: I imagine, since they are referring to Mr. Trump initially, probably Melania Trump. MR. GOWDY: They didn't give you any gifts, though? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall. MR. GOWDY: Will you look at the last paragraph for me? The paragraph beginning, Putin is deadly serious about building a good relationship with Mr. Trump. What does that suggest to you if he is interested in building one? MR. TRUMP: That there is no relationship prior. MR. GOWDY: You know, I am always astounded that we take verbatim UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 231 and tend to err on the side of believing emails from people, particularly ones that we haven't talked to and are unfamiliar with. But let's assume for the sake of argument that what's in this email is true. I read it the same way, he is deadly serious about building a good relationship with Mr. Trump, which suggests that one does not exist. MR. TRUMP: Correct. MR. GOWDY: Are you aware that your father talked to Mr. Erickson or anyone else at the NRA conference? MR. TRUMP: I am not. MR. GOWDY: And the full extent of your interaction, as my friends on the other side call it, the Russians at this conference would be what? MR. TRUMP: The full extent? Maybe 4 for 5 minutes as I took a break from my group of 25 people that I was having dinner with. MR. GOWDY: Okay. That's all I have. MR. CONAWAY: Mr. Swalwell for 15 minutes. MR. SWALWELL: To your knowledge, prior to November 8, 2016, had your father ever met Vladimir Putin? MR. TRUMP: No, not to my knowledge. MR. SWALWELL: Prior to November 8, 2016, had your father ever talked on the phone with Vladimir Putin? MR. TRUMP: Not to my knowledge. MR. SWALWELL: Did you go to Scotland on June 23, 2016? MR. TRUMP: I would have to check my calendar, but that sounds vaguely familiar. That sounds like the opening of Turnberry. MR. SWALWELL: Did you travel with your father? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 232 MR. TRUMP: Yes, I did. MR. SWALWELL: Did this trip occur when the Brexit vote was happening? MR. TRUMP: Approximately, yes. MR. SWALWELL: Are you aware as to -- well, did you meet with Nigel Farage while you were on this trip? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall meeting with Nigel, no. MR. SWALWELL: Did you see Nigel Farage on this trip? MR. TRUMP: He may have been there. I don't remember. I had seen him elsewhere, but not on this trip, I don't think. MR. SWALWELL: Had you seen him in Scotland before? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe I have seen him in Scotland before, no. MR. SWALWELL: So your testimony is you don't recall as to whether you saw him on this trip or not? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall that. MR. SWALWELL: Was Alexander Nix? Do you know who Alexander Nix is? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Trump, just I am going to ask you to do something we have asked others to do. That poorly drawn rectangle is the table. MR. CONAWAY: We will make a copy of that once it's done. MR. SWALWELL: And if you don't mind, that is an effort to depict the conference table at Trump Tower. And to the best of your recollection, just using initials, could you depict where each person sat during that meeting? If you don't know where someone sat you can put a question mark. MR. TRUMP: Are you talking about the June 9 meeting? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 233 MR. SWALWELL: Yes, please. MR. TRUMP: Can you give me the names of the other people? Because I am not sure. MR. SWALWELL: We discussed Natalia Veselnitskaya. MR. TRUMP: Okay. MR. SWALWELL: We have discussed Anatoli Samochornov. MR. TRUMP: Is that the translator? MR. SWALWELL: That's her interpreter, yes. MR. TRUMP: So AS? MR. SWALWELL: AS would be all right. We have discussed Rinat Akhmetshin. MR. TRUMP: I didn't remember him being there. MR. SWALWELL: And we have discussed Ike Kaveladze, also known as Irakly. And Mr. Goldstone. And if you could, once you are done, just sign that at the bottom. And I will admit that as exhibit 4, if that's okay with the chairman. [Trump Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.] MR. TRUMP: Understanding that this is to the best of my recollection, like I said. MR. SWALWELL: If you want to write -MR. TRUMP: I don't think I need to, unless -- it's on the record. Okay. MR. CONAWAY: Does that include Manafort and Mr. Kushner? MR. TRUMP: What's that? MR. SWALWELL: Did you depict where Mr. Kushner and -MR. TRUMP: Yes, I did. We were on this end of the table. Again, those UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 234 two could be reversed in terms of order. I don't remember. I think Veselnitskaya and her interpreter were on the next corner. And Kaveladze and then Goldstone. And he may have been just sort of floating around. I think the translator sat next to -- I think the translator sat next to the interpreter. But again, he could have sat on this side of her and she could have been here. I don't -- to the best of my knowledge, this is the setup. Again, there is one person missing, because I don't remember them being there, but I -MR. SWALWELL: So to your recollection, you, Jared Kushner, and Paul Manafort all sat in a row together? MR. TRUMP: Yes. MR. SWALWELL: Was there an additional person on behalf of the Trump campaign or organization in that room taking notes? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. SWALWELL: Was Ivanka present at the meeting? MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so. MR. SWALWELL: Was Ivanka present before the meeting? MR. TRUMP: I don't think so. MR. SWALWELL: Did you see Ivanka present after the meeting? MR. TRUMP: Her office is next to mine, so she may have been there, but she wasn't in the meeting. MR. SWALWELL: And if someone were to describe -- if Rob Goldstone were to say days later that you had followed up and were breathing down his neck to get the dirt on Hillary Clinton as a followup, would that be true or false? MR. TRUMP: Patently false. MR. SWALWELL: And Mr. Trump, you said that you were willing to at UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 235 least receive the information, the dirt, on Hillary Clinton as information, and that you were willing to engage with WikiLeaks because they were a media organization. Just for our committee's understanding, what were you not willing to receive? Like what red lines would you have had as far as information you wouldn't have received if it were offered to you during the campaign? MR. FUTERFAS: I am going to object and direct my client not to answer it. It's been asked and answered dozens of times over the past -MR. SWALWELL: Not in this committee. MR. FUTERFAS: Yes, it has. It's been asked numerous times what would he do? Hypotheticals were asked by your colleague, Congressman Schiff. Hypothetical after hypothetical. What would you could do if this happened. What if the information was this? What if the info source was this? MR. SWALWELL: Counsel, I understand. MR. FUTERFAS: I am directing him not to answer. It's asked and answered repeatedly, and I think it's an argumentative -MR. SWALWELL: I understand. So Mr. Trump, you are refusing to answer that question? MR. FUTERFAS: Yes. MR. TRUMP: Sure. MR. SWALWELL: I yield back to Mr. Schiff. MR. SCHIFF: I just have a few remaining questions. Did Mr. Froshe (ph) provide any assistance to the campaign, to your knowledge? MR. TRUMP: I know he spoke at a few events. I think I met him in Mississippi at an event that he spoke at. I am not sure of any other campaign information. UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 236 MR. SCHIFF: Did he visit Trump Tower during the campaign? MR. TRUMP: I don't recall. MR. SCHIFF: Do you know whether he had any links to Julian Assange? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SCHIFF: Apart from the Russians who were present at the June 9 meeting and the Russians that you met at the NRA meeting, did you have any contact with any other Russian nationals during the course of the campaign? MR. TRUMP: Again, not to my recollection, but you have got to remember I spoke to -- I spoke in front of five groups of 300 to 3,000 every day for 9 months. If someone was there, that doesn't mean I didn't shake their hand, but not to my recollection and no specific instances do I recall meeting anyone else, but I met tens of thousands of people every week on the campaign trail. MR. SCHIFF: One last topic. Prior to your father's May 9 decision to fire Director Comey, did he ever ask you what you thought he should do about Comey? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever discuss the Comey firing with him? MR. TRUMP: I did not. MR. SCHIFF: Prior to making the decision, press reports indicated he was at one of the family resorts. Do you know which one that was? MR. TRUMP: I don't. MR. SCHIFF: Which is the resort in New Jersey? MR. TRUMP: Bedminster. MR. SCHIFF: Bedminster. Did you accompany him to Bedminster the weekend before the decision was made to fire James Comey? UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE 237 MR. TRUMP: I would have to check. I don't know. MR. SCHIFF: Did your father ever discuss with you the January 6 briefing he received from Comey in which Comey briefed him on the findings of the Intelligence Community assessment as well as the so-called dossier? MR. TRUMP: No. MR. SCHIFF: Did the President ever express his frustration to you about Director Comey's investigation into Russian interference in the election? MR. TRUMP: No, not that I recall. MR. SCHIFF: Did your father ever discuss with you any of his interactions with Mr. Comey prior to his firing Mr. Comey? MR. TRUMP: No, he did not. MR. SCHIFF: Did he ever discuss with you after he fired Director Comey his decision to fire the Director? MR. TRUMP: No, I don't believe so. MR. SCHIFF: Were you part of any other discussions with White House officials or family members about the firing of James Comey? MR. TRUMP: Not that I recall, no. MR. SCHIFF: That concludes our questions. MR. CONAWAY: Well, Mr. Trump, let the record reflect we have been at it some 6 hours and 15 minutes cumulative. You have been here longer than that. We took a break, went to vote, and do all that kind of good stuff. Thank you very much for your straightforwardness in answering all of our questions. And as we said earlier on, if there is something else that comes up, we will be back in touch. Thank you for today. We appreciate it. We are adjourned. [Whereupon, at 5:51 p.m., the interview was concluded.] UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 238