C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 15 APRIL 2019 D AY 8 3 20 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 PROCEEDINGS ON 15 APRIL 2019 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r Pr e t o r i u s , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M o r n i n g C h a ir. M o r n i n g Mr M c Bride. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : M o r n i n g C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir j u s t t w o m a t t e r s b e f o r e w e c o m m e n c e w i t h th e e v i d e n c e o n c e m o r e . T h e fir s t i s w e h a v e r e f e r r e d in e v id e n c e to t w o r e p o r ts , t h e p r e l i m i n a r y o r fir s t r e p o r t fr o m t h e I P I D t o th e N PA a n d t h e s e c o n d o r f in a l r e p o r t w h i c h – b o t h o f w h ic h h a v e 10 b e e n a m a t t e r o f s o m e c o n tr o v e r s y p a r tic u la r ly t h e d i ff e r e n c e s b e t w e e n the two. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e f ir s t r e p o r t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 9 1 th a t i s t h e J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 r e p o r t o f t h e b u n d l e , Ex h ib i t Y. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s E x h i b i t Ya . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Ya y e s . A n d th e s e c o n d o n e a p p e a r s i n th e s a m e b u n d l e o r s a m e e x h ib i t a t p a g e 2 2 7 . CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e s e c o n d m a t t e r th a t r e q u ir e d 20 m e n ti o n C h a ir is o n Fr i d a y I s a id t h a t I w o u l d c o n s u lt w it h t h e w i t n e s s in o r d e r t o d e t e r m i n e a t w h a t le v e l o f d e t a i l i t w a s n e c e s s a r y t o c o n ti n u e a n d w h e t h e r m a t t e r s o f g e n e r a l i m p o r t a n d g e n e r a l p r i n c i p le c o u l d b e d e a l t w it h in s u c h a w a y a s t o e x c lu d e d e b a t e s a b o u t th e r ig h ts a n d w r o n g s o f t h e m a n y is s u e s r a is e d b y t h e w i tn e s s . CHAIRPERSON : H’m. Page 2 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O n c o n s id e r a ti o n a n d b e c a u s e t h e r e is n o fi x e d d e te r m in a ti o n m a d e c le a r ly b y y o u r s e l f y e t C h a ir n o r b y t h e l e g a l t e a m a s t o w h a t a c t u a ll y o c c u r r e d a n d w h y i t o c c u r r e d a n d b e c a u s e o f t h e n e e d t o h e a r a l l t h e e v i d e n c e fi r s t a n d th e n o n ly m a k e a n a s s e s s m e n t a s t o w h y L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s a c t e d a s th e y d i d w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e d e l ib e r a t e ly, a c tiv e l y o r p a s s i v e ly p a r t o f a n y s ta t e c a p tu r e p r o j e c t t h a t y o u mi g h t f in d to e x i s t . I t is n e c e s s a r y to h e a r t h e d e t a i l f ir s t a n d n o t t o c u t o u t a n y o f th e d e ta il s o th a t a l l t h e fa c ts a r e before you when you need to make a final assessment. 10 Th e r e a r e v a r io u s p o s s ib l e e x p la n a ti o n s fo r w h a t o c c u r r e d b u t fi r s t w e h a v e t o s h o w in d e t a i ls w h a t d id o c c u r b e c a u s e w h a t i s b e y o n d d o u b t C h a ir is t h a t t h e a c t s o r t h e l a c k o f a c ti o n o n t h e p a r t o f L a w E n fo r c e m e n t o v e r t h e p a s t t e n y e a r s a t l e a s t to c e n tr a l to t h e i n q u ir y t h a t y o u m u s t m a k e . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a n o t h a t is fi n e . I t h i n k w e h a v e h a d a n u m b e r o f p e o p l e i n c l u d in g s o m e o f t h e w i tn e s s e s w h o h a v e t e s t i fi e d s a y i n g t h a t t h e L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c ie s h a d l o s t c r e d i b i li ty a n d t h a t t h e y h a v e n o c o n f i d e n c e i n t h e m t h a t is w h y t h e y d i d n o t r e p o r t o r d o c e r t a i n t h i n g s a n d – a n d t h e n a ti o n m i g h t n e e d t o k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e is a b a s is f o r t h a t in r e g a r d t o th e L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c ie s o r w h e t h e r 20 t h o s e b e l ie f s a n d p e r c e p ti o n s r e a l ly h a d n o b a s is b e c a u s e L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s p la y s s u c h a n i m p o r ta n t r o l e i n s o c i e t y. S o w e m i g h t h a v e j u s t – I t h in k y o u a r e r i g h t t o s a y l e t u s h e a r a l l t h e d e t a ils it m ig h t b e a q u i te a c h a ll e n g e b u t it m a y b e n e c e s s a r y i f a c r e d i b l e d e t e r m i n a t io n h a s t o b e m a d e a t t h e e n d o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir. Page 3 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o a l l w e k n o w f o r th e m o m e n t is t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t h a s b e e n g i v e n u n d e r t h e r u b r ic o f L a w Enforcement Agencies is c r i t ic a l to the terms of reference to understand what ha ppened and why it happened and how it could be p r e v e n t e d f r o m h a p p e n in g a g a in . A n d – b u t in o r d e r t o d e t e r m in e t h e p r e c i s e n a t u r e o f t h e r o l e w it h o u t a n y p r e - c o n c e p t io n s w e h a v e to h e a r a l l t h e e v i d e n c e i n it s d e t a i l s a d l y a n d y o u w il l b e a r w i t h u s i n th a t r e g a r d C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON : J a n o , n o , n o th a t i s f i n e . I t a ls o – t h e r o l e o f L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s e x a c tly w h a t t h e y d i d a n d w h a t t h e y d i d n o t d o a n d t o w h a t e x t e n t t h e y m a y b e e n i n fl u e n c e d o r a ffe c te d b y s t a t e c a p tu r e m i g h t a ls o b e r e l e v a n t t o t h e q u e s t io n o f th e l e v e ls o f c o r r u p ti o n t h a t h a v e h a p p e n e d w h e r e w e a r e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : B e c a u s e i f t h e y a r e n o t a c ti n g t h e w a y th e y s h o u l d a c t i n r e g a r d to c o r r u p ti o n t h e n c o r r u p ti o n m a y h a v e r e a s o n b e c a u s e … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s CHAIRPERSON : 20 O f a m o n g o t h e r t h i n g s t h e f a c t th a t t h e y w e r e n o t a c ti n g , t h e y w e r e n o t s e e n t o b e a c ti n g o r p e o p l e w h o w e r e b u s y w i t h a c ts o f c o r r u p t i o n k n e w th a t t h e L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c ie s w e r e n o t g o i n g t o e n fo r c e t h e l a w s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s t h a t is p r e c is e l y th e p o i n t a n d t h a t is p a r t ic u l a r r e f e r e n c e t o 1 . 5 a n d 1 . 9 w h ic h d ir e c ts t h e C h a ir t o e x a m i n e t h e n a tu r e a n d e x t e n t o f c o r r u p ti o n . Page 4 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 CHAIRPERSON : H’m. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ac r o s s a r a n g e o f s ta t e o w n e d e n t i ti e s a n d a t a l l l e v e l s o f g o v e r n m e n t . CHAIRPERSON : Ja thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr M c Br id e i f w e c o u ld g o to p a r a g r a p h 4 3 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t i t is o n p a g e 9 o f E x h i b i t Ya . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : I h a v e i t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 W e – w e w i ll d e a l w it h t h e W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t a s p a r t o f y o u r e v id e n c e t h is m o r n i n g in s u c h d e t a i l a s m a y b e a p p r o p r i a te b u t b e f o r e w e d o t h a t y o u w il l r e c a ll a t p a r a g r a p h 3 6 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t y o u r a is e d t h e is s u e o f t h e f a i lu r e o f c o m m u n ic a ti o n s b e t w e e n W e r k s m a n s o n t h e o n e h a n d a n d y o u r s e l f o n t h e o th e r. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I h a v e b e e n g i v e n tw o e m a i ls b y t h e r e p r e s e n ta t iv e o f W e r k s m a n s I p r e s u m e i n r e s p o n s e t o t h o s e a l le g a ti o n s a n d t h e a l le g a ti o n s r e g a r d i n g t h e i n c o r r e c t a d d r e s s e s w h i c h w e r e u s e d a s y o u s ta t e i n p a r a g r a p h 3 6 . 20 C h a ir t h e s e w i ll b e h a n d e d u p , c o p i e s w i ll b e m a d e i n d u e c o u r s e a n d t h e y w il l b e i n c l u d e d i n t h e bundles. J u s t b y w a y o f b a c k g r o u n d w h e n y o u p h y s ic a l ly l e a v e t h e o ffic e s o f I P I D in 2 0 1 5 ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : It was the – my last day was the 24 March 2015. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P r i o r to t h a t a n y c o m m u n ic a ti o n Page 5 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 a d d r e s s e d t o y o u a t I P I D w o u l d h a v e b e e n r e c e iv e d h a d it b e e n c o r r e c t ly a d d r e s s e d ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Th e c o m m u n ic a ti o n s y o u r e fe r r e d t o i n p a r a g r a p h 3 6 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t . W h e n w o u ld t h o s e h a v e occurred? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Well… A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Or not occurred becaus e the c o m m u n ic a ti o n s w e r e n e v e r r e c e iv e d b y y o u b e c a u s e y o u s a y in c o r r e c t 10 addresses were used? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : Th e s e w o u l d h a v e o c c u r r e d fo r I w a s s u s p e n d e d b e c a u s e a ft e r I w a s s u s p e n d e d I w o u ld n o t h a v e a c c e s s t o a n y d o c u m e n ta t io n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . S o th e t w o e m a il s t h a t w e r e h a n d e d t o t h e l e g a l t e a m a r e d a t e d r e s p e c tiv e ly 1 3 A p r i l 2 0 1 5 a n d 2 A p r il 2 0 1 5 . J u s t fo r t h e r e c o r d w o u l d y o u l o o k a t t h e m p l e a s e a n d s e e i f t h o s e a r e a d d r e s s e d c o r r e c t ly s u b j e c t t o o f c o u r s e th e n e x t q u e s t io n w h ic h is ; w e r e y o u th e r e a t a l l ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: 20 T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . T h a n k s C h a ir. T h e o n e d a t e d 1 3 A p r i l is d ir e c t e d t o t h e a c ti n g e x e c u ti v e d ir e c t o r a n d e x e c u tiv e a s s is t a n t a n d t h e y a r e t h e c o r r e c t e m a i l a d d r e s s e s . A n d t h e o n e d a te d 2 A p r i l i s a d d r e s s e d t o m e a n d it i s a c o r r e c t a d d r e s s o f c o u r s e b u t I a m n o t t h e r e a t th is s t a g e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Ye s y o u w e r e n o l o n g e r t h e r e . B u t i t is s h o r tly a f te r t h a t t h a t y o u a c t u a ll y h a d a n i n t e r v ie w w i t h Page 6 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 Werksmans? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o t h e i n c o r r e c t c o m m u n ic a ti o n s t h a t y o u r e fe r t o i n p a r a g r a p h 3 6 w o u ld b e r e l e v a n t t h e p e r io d b e f o r e y o u l e ft ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. It would have b e e n h e lp f u l if c o p i e s o f t h a t e m a il w e r e s e n t b y W e r k s m a n s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e s e c o n d i s s u e I w o u l d li k e t o d e a l w i t h b e f o r e w e s ta r t a g a i n w i t h y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u t e s t if i e d t o a 10 p r e s s s t a te m e n t m a d e b y y o u r s e lf in c o n j u n c ti o n w i t h Mr P i ll a y a n d Mr D r a m a t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W o u l d y o u l o o k a t t h e d o c u m e n t s n o w b e i n g s h o w n t o y o u p l e a s e . C h a ir I w i ll a g a i n h a n d u p a c o p y t o you. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t w i ll b e i n c l u d e d i n t h e b u n d l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s f in e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : 20 W e m a y d e a l w i t h t h is a t s o m e s t a g e o r w e m a y j u s t p la c e i t o n r e c o r d a n d d e a l w i t h i t i n s u b m i s s i o n s o r y o u m a y b e r e c a ll e d a t s o m e s t a g e t o d e t a il t h e a n a ly s is th a t is b e g u n in t h is a r ti c l e . B u t i n t h i s a r t ic l e I u n d e r s t a n d th e r e is a n a n a ly s is o f th e s t a te o f p l a y w i t h i n L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c ie s t h e s i m il a r it i e s i n v a r i o u s fi e ld s o f in v e s ti g a t io n o r n o n - i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d a n a n a ly s is o f t h e p o s s i b l e c a u s e s a n d d ir e c t io n s t h a t th e a c t s o f N PA a r e Page 7 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 t a lk in g ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M u c h o f i t y o u a lr e a d y m e n ti o n e d i n y o u r e v id e n c e b u t t h e q u e s t i o n a s k e d b y t h e C h a ir w h i c h I a s k y o u n o w is – i s t h i s a d i r e c t r e c o r d i n g o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t o r is i t e x tr a c ts i n c l u d i n g c o m m e n t a r y b y t h e r e p o r t e r ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : C h a ir is a v e r b a ti m s t a te m e n t t h a t w a s r e l e a s e d b y t h e t h r e e o f u s . I t is n o t c o m m e n te d o n i t is j u s t – it i s j u s t p u b lis h e d o n t h is w e b s it e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w is t h e o n e t h a t w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t ? I k n o w t h a t I h a v e b e e n g i v e n s o m e d o c u m e n t a n d t h e w i tn e s s h a s b e e n g i v e n s o m e d o c u m e n t . I d o n o t k n o w i f i t i s th e s a m e d o c u m e n t , d o w e h a v e the same document? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t i s th e s a m e d o c u m e n t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : It is the same document. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A b o u t w h i c h y o u r a is e d q u e s t io n s e a r l ie r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : 20 I t is t h e r e i t w il l b e p a g i n a t e d and included in the bundle. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t i s f in e . J a . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : B u t j u s t t o h i g h li g h t s o m e a s p e c ts o f th e a r t ic l e . O n t h e fir s t p a g e o f th e a r ti c l e t h e c o m m e n t is made: “ T h e e v e n ts th a t th e D ir e c t o r a te f o r Pr i o r i t y C r i m e Page 8 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 I n v e s ti g a t i o n D P C I o r H a w k s I P I D th e S o u th A f r i c a n R e v e n u e S e r v ic e , C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a n d t h e S A P S , t h e S t a te S e c u r i ty A g e n c y, D e n e l a n d t h e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty a r e n o t u n r e l a te d . There a p p e a r s t o b e a r e m a r k a b l e c o i n c i d e n c e in t h e methods used in s t i tu t io n s to and remove the p la y e r s o ffi c i a l s fr o m i n v o lv e d these and t h e ir in t e r s e c t in g i n te r e s ts .” D o y o u s t a n d b y th a t v i e w ? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t c o n t in u e s : “ I n o u r v ie w a t a x o n i n d iv i d u a ls i n t h e s e i n s ti t u ti o n s are aimed c o r r u p ti o n . at u n d e r m in in g the fi g h t agai nst A k e y p a r t o f a ll o u r m a n d a t e s w a s to in v e s t i g a t e c a s e s o f c o r r u p ti o n . I n r e v ie w i n g o u r in d i v i d u a l e x p e r i e n c e s o v e r r e c e n t w e e k s w e h a v e d is c o v e r e d a c o n v e r g e n c e i n t h e c a s e s th a t w e w e r e w o r k i n g o n .” D o y o u s t a n d b y th a t ? 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s I s t a n d b y th a t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A f e w l in e s o n – w e ll l e t u s ju s t c o n ti n u e t h a t p a r a g r a p h b e f o r e w e g e t t o t h e n e x t : " “ A c o m m o n t h r e a d i s t h a t c a s e s u n d e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n in v o lv e d in d iv i d u a ls o r e n ti t ie s w i th q u e s ti o n a b l e Page 9 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 r e l a ti o n s h i p s t o th o s e in p u b li c o ff ic e . M o s t o f th e s e c a s e s in v o lv e s t a te t e n d e r s o f s o m e k i n d t h a t w e r e awarded due to p a tr o n a g e within i n fl u e n t ia l in d i v i d u a ls i n p u b l ic o ffic e .” D o y o u s t a n d b y th a t th e s is ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: The next paragraph reads: “ T h e m a n n e r in w h ic h o ffi c i a l s w e r e r e m o v e d h a s f o ll o w e d a s i m i la r p a t t e r n . 10 Internal documents or a l le g a ti o n s fr o m w i t h i n i n s t it u ti o n s a r e l e a k e d t o selected j o u r n a li s ts anonymous sources, w o r k in g fa c t s in are tandem d is t o r t e d with in th e m e d i a .” N o w w e d e a l t w i t h th a t b r i e fl y l a s t t i m e y o u g a v e e v i d e n c e o n Fr i d a y b u t I ta k e it a n d t h e r e h a s b e e n a n d w i ll b e e v id e n c e t h a t t h e r e w e r e p r e s s r e l e a s e s in r e l a ti o n t o t h e r o g u e u n i t r e l e v a n t to S A R S , i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e C a t o M a n o r i n c id e n t. M r B o o y s e n w i ll t e s t i fy t o t h a t a n d y o u h a v e te s t i fi e d t o th e r e n d i ti o n s a g a t h a t is t h r e e e x a m p le s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h e n y o u s t a t e th a t i t is in c o r r e c t – i t is u n c e r t a i n h o w t h e le a k s h a p p e n e d . O v e r th e p a g e y o u s a y in p a r a g r a p h 5 : “In a ll in s t i t u t i o n s cited here Page 10 of 170 the a ff e c ti v e top 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 le a d e r s h i p was removed and replaced. The r e p l a c e m e n t s t h e n in s t i tu t e f a r r e a c h i n g s tr u c t u r a l a n d o p e r a ti o n a l c h a n g e s i n t h e i n s ti t u ti o n s .” M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n t h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h : “ Bu t o n e i t c o n ti n u e s w h e r e m a t t e r s h a v e g o n e t o c o u r t t h e c o u r ts h a v e c o n s is t e n t ly fo u n d i n f a v o u r o f t h e a ff e c t e d o ffi c i a l s w it h c o s t o r d e r s a g a i n s t t h e i r in s t i tu t io n s o n ly f o r th e m t o b e s u s p e n d e d a g a i n a n d 10 in v e s t i g a t e d o n a n e w s l a t e o f a l le g a t i o n s . T h is w a s s o i n th e m a t t e r s o f R o b e r t M c Br id e , I v a n Pi ll a y, P e t e r R i c h e r, A n w a D r a m a t, S h a d r a c k S i b iy a , J o h a n B o o y s e n a n d G l y n n i s Br e y t e n b a c h a m o n g s t o t h e r s .” A n d t h e n t o w a r d s t h e b o t to m o f t h e p a g e t h e a n a ly s is c o n ti n u e s : “ C o r r u p t io n is t h e b i g g e s t t h r e a t t o o u r c o n s ti t u ti o n a l d e m o c r a c y. Th is c a n c e r h a s t u r n e d f o r m e r c o mr a d e s a g a in s t e a c h o t h e r. People who shared the same tr e n c h e s i n t h e fi g h t fo r l ib e r a ti o n a r e n o w a t e a c h o th e r ’s t h r o a ts f o r t h e s a k e o f p r o t e c ti n g c o r r u p t 20 a c ti v i ti e s .” Is th is s ta t e m e n t o n e y o u s t a n d b y a n d is i t c o n s is t e n t w i t h t h e a n a l y s is t h a t th e t h r e e o f y o u e n g a g e d u p o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : Ye s i n d e e d C h a i r a n d I w o u ld g o f u r t h e r a n d s a y a l o t o f w h a t h a p p e n e d in t h is p e r i o d t h a t w e i d e n t i fi e d h a s c o n ti n u e d a n d is s t il l c o n t in u in g . Page 11 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Al r i g h t . N o w o f c o u r s e t h i s is a h i g h l e v e l a n a ly s is th a t y o u t o g e t h e r w i th M r Pi ll a y a n d M r D r a m a t h a v e embarked upon. I t i s s o m e t h in g th a t th e c o m m i s s i o n is in v e s t i g a t in g a n d w il l o n l y m a k e it s o w n c o n c l u s i o n s a t t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f a l l t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t i t is t o h e a r. I n s o f a r a s y o u r a s s is t a n c e m a y b e r e q u ir e d o r t h e a s s is t a n c e o f a n y o t h e r w i t n e s s I t a k e y o u q u it e h a p p y t o c o o p e r a t e w it h th e c o m m i s s io n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A b s o l u te ly. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 A n d w e k n o w th a t a t t h e v e r y le a s t M r D r a m a t a n d Mr B o o y s e n t o g e t h e r w i t h m a n y o t h e r s t o g iv e e v i d e n c e i n r e la t i o n t o t h e s a m e t h e m e o f c o n c l u s i o n s ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Ye s i n d e e d C h a ir i n c l u d i n g m y o w n c o l l e a g u e s – fo r m e r c o l l e a g u e s fr o m I P I D i n p a r t ic u l a r M r K h u b a a n d M r Sesoko. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : W e l l i n th e e n d a n a n a ly s i s o f v a r i o u s e v e n t s t h a t o c c u r r e d a n d w h y t h e y o c c u r r e d , th e w a y th e y d i d a n d w h y t h e y o c c u r r e d a t th e t i m e t h a t t h e y o c c u r r e d y o u k n o w w i ll b e i m p o r t a n t p a r t ic u l a r ly i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e L a w E n f o r c e m e n t s e c t o r. 20 I do not know w h a t I w i ll m a k e o f t h is a n a ly s is a t t h e e n d b u t I a m q u it e i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e a n a ly s i s th a t w a s m a d e b y p e o p le w h o w e r e i n v o l v e d in t h e e v e n t s in o n e w a y o r a n o th e r a t th e ti m e . S o M r P r e t o r iu s h a s s a id t h a t y o u m a y b e – y o u m a y h a v e to b e o f a s s is t a n c e I t h i n k t h a t i t w il l b e i m p o r t a n t a t s o m e s t a g e t h a t a s a w i tn e s s w h o w a s p a r ty t o t h e w r i t i n g o f th is a n a ly s is t h a t I g e t th e b e n e f it o f h e a r i n g h o w y o u s a w t h in g s a n d Page 12 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 y o u b e q u e s ti o n e d o n y o u r a n a ly s is a n d y o u a r e a b le t o d e f e n d i t i f y o u w a n t t o d e f e n d i t a n d e n g a g e i n a d is c u s s io n o f h o w j u s ti f ie d t h a t a n a ly s is i s b e c a u s e I t h i n k it is q u i te i m p o r t a n t . Of course as Mr P r e t o r i u s s a y s t h e r e m a y b e o t h e r w h o – w h o w e r e p a r t y t o w r it i n g i t t h e s a m e w o u l d g o f o r th e m . It would be important at some stage to lo o k i n t o – i n t o t h o s e is s u e s a n d – a n d g i v e a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o d is c u s s t h e a n a ly s is a n d s e e h o w ju s t i fi e d i t w a s a n d y o u a ll g e t a c h a n c e to s o t o s p e a k d e f e n d i t o r p r o m o te i t o r a d v a n c e i t s o t h a t a t th e e n d o f th e w o r k o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n it c a n b e t a k e n i n to a c c o u n t in t h e k n o w l e d g e 10 t h a t i t is – i t h a s b e e n t e s t e d . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Thanks. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . A n d in t h e m e a n w h il e w e h a v e t o t e s t t h e p a ti e n c e o f t h e C h a ir a n d t h e p u b li c o u t t h e r e a n d d e a l w i t h t h e d e t a i l. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E: Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : If we can refer then to your s t a te m e n t b e f o r e W e r k s m a n s a n d t h e s ta t e m e n t is c o n t a in e d i n o n e o f t h e b u n d l e s ; i t i s b u n d le B I th in k is i t ? E x h i b it Y b C h a ir. We had b e g u n w i th y o u r s t a t e m e n t o n Fr id a y a n d w e w e r e b u s y d e a li n g w i th 20 e x tr a c ts fr o m y o u r s t a t e m e n t b e f o r e W e r k s m a n s . Yo u r a is e d a n u m b e r o f p o in t s w h ic h w e h a v e a l r e a d y tr a v e r s e d M r M c Br id e . A n d a m o n g s t t h o s e p o i n ts w a s th e p r o p r i e ty o r l a w f u ln e s s o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n a s a w h o le a n d y o u h a v e t o ld t h e C h a ir y o u r v i e w s in t h a t r e g a r d . S o m e o f – if n o t a l l o f w h ic h w e r e v i n d ic a t e d b y t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l c o u r t j u d g m e n t w h ic h l a t e r fo ll o w e d . B u t f o r th e p r e s e n t l e t u s j u s t d e a l w i th p a g e 8 8 8 Page 13 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 of Yb. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a n k s C h a ir h a v e i t . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u t a l k e d a b o u t h i s s t a te m e n t d i d y o u m e a n th e in t e r v ie w ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M y a p o lo g i e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 I t w a s – t h is is a tr a n s c r i p t o f t h e in t e r v ie w w h ic h i t s e e m s c o m m o n c a u s e a s a c o r r e c t tr a n s c r i p t . Is that correct Mr McBride? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : U p t o p a g e 8 8 8 a s y o u h a v e t o l d t h e C h a ir a n d j u s t t o p l a c e y o u r f u r t h e r e v id e n c e in c o n t e x t y o u h a v e r a i s e d t w o i s s u e s . O n e w a s t h e is s u e a b o u t c o m m u n i c a t io n s b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d W e r k s m a n s p r i o r t o y o u r c o n d u c t in g t h is i n t e r v i e w o r a g r e e i n g t o t h is i n t e r v ie w w it h W e r k s m a n s . The second appears on p a g e 8 8 8 w h e r e y o u s a y a t li n e 8 : “ T h e n a ls o th e f a c t th a t a p r i v a t e l a w c o m p a n y i s 20 in v e s t i g a t in g a government i n v e s ti g a ti v e agency a l b e i t a n i n d e p e n d e n t o n e b e f o r e t h e N PA h a d m a d e a d e c is io n .” And then you expanded on that. Do you recall? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s , y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u s a i d : Page 14 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 “ I n e s s e n c e I P I D i s a c c o u n ta b le t o p a r li a m e n t . It is a c o n s ti t u ti o n a ll y in d e p e n d e n t o r g a n is a ti o n and d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e e d in g s m a y n o t b e i n it i a t e d b y t h e M i n is t e r a n d th a t is – t h a t p r in c i p l e is d ic t a t e d b y y o u r c o n s ti t u t i o n a l in d e p e n d e n c e .” A n d y o u r f u r t h e r is s u e th a t y o u r a is e d w a s : “ T h a t t h i s is n o t a n o ffi c i a l s t a te a g e n c y o f o v e r s i g h t m a k i n g t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n b u t a p r iv a t e c o m p a n y.” M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Those were the issues you r a i s e d . I f w e c a n g o t h e n p le a s e t o t h e j u d g m e n t o f t h e c o n s ti t u t i o n a l c o u r t to s e e h o w A c ti n g J u s tic e B o s i e l o c a m e t o h is c o n c l u s i o n s a n d t o g iv e a n o v e r v i e w o f th e c o n c l u s io n s h e r e a c h e d in th e c o n s t i tu t io n a l court judgment in regard to the independenc e of IPID and the powers of t h e M i n i s t e r. I t i s b u n d l e C C h a ir, p a g e 1 3 0 1 . CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : E x h ib it Y c I s h o u ld s a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is t h e p a g e n u m b e r a g a i n ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 1 3 0 1 . 20 CHAIRPERSON : 1301? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 1301. 1 3 0 1 C h a ir. It was a u n a n i m o u s j u d g m e n t o f t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l c o u r t . Th e c o v e r p a g e is a t p a g e 1 3 0 1 . I d o n o t i n t e n d t o ta k e t h e C h a ir th r o u g h th e w h o l e o f th e ju d g m e n t b u t t o g o to p a r a g r a p h 8 o n p a g e 1 3 0 9 . P a r a g r a g p h 8 r e a d : C e n tr a l t o t h i s a p p l ic a – w e ll p e r h a p s w e s h o u ld j u s t r e m i n d a ll Page 15 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 c o n c e r n e d o f th e n a tu r e o f t h e a p p li c a t i o n . I t w a s a n a p p li c a t io n in w h ic h y o u w e r e t h e s o l e a p p l ic a n t , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s a t th a t s t a g e b u t a t th e g e n e s i s it w a s t h e o r g a n is a ti o n a n d m y s e l f . T h is w il l b e c o m e i m p o r t a n t t h e d is t in c ti o n I m a k e n o w. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: About that. So it was IPID and myself. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Right. And the respondents w e r e t h e M i n i s t e r o f P o l ic e a n d t h e M i n is te r f o r P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d 10 A d m i n i s t r a t io n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B e c a u s e i t i s n o t c le a r a t a l l ti m e s w h a t p o w e r t h e M i n is te r w a s r e l y i n g o n , is th a t c o r r e c t ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t a n d a ls o t h a t th e P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n is tr a ti o n r e g u l a te s d e p a r t m e n ts w i th i n t h e p u b lic s e r v ic e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. A n d a s fr ie n d o f t h e c o u r t a m ic u s c u r i a e th e H e le n S u z m a n F o u n d a ti o n w a s a ls o a p a r ty th a t m a d e s u b m is s i o n s ? 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t d e a lt w it h y o u r c h a l le n g e t o y o u r s u s p e n s i o n , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Right. paragraph 8 then. Paragraph 8 reads: Page 16 of 170 If w e c o u ld g o t o 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 “ C e n tr a l t o th is a p p li c a t io n i s a c r is p q u e s t io n w h e t h e r in th e l ig h t o f t h e a p p li c a b le s ta t u to r y fr a m e w o r k I P I D e n j o y s a d e q u a te s tr u c t u r a l a n d o p e r a ti o n i n d e p e n d e n c e a s e n v is a g e d b y S e c t io n 2 0 6 ( 6 ) o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n t o e n s u r e t h a t i t i s a ffe c t iv e l y i n s u la t e d fr o m undue p o l it ic a l in t e r fe r e n c e .” T h e b a c k g r o u n d t h e n i s s e t o u t i n p a r a g r a p h s 9 a n d f o l l o w in g . P a r a g r a p h 9 is s u m m a r is e d o r s u m m a r is e s s o m e o f t h e b a c k g r o u n d . I t 10 reads: “ At the time when M r M c Br id e took o ffic e on 3 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 th e r e w a s a p o li t ic a l s t o r m b r e w i n g over th e a ll e g e d Zi m b a b w e a n unlawful N a ti o n a ls J a n u a r y 2 0 11 . in r e n d i ti o n of four November 2010 and L i e u te n a n t G e n e r a l A n w a r D r a m a t t h e th e n h e a d o f t h e D ir e c t o r a te f o r P r i o r it y C r i m e I n v e s ti g a t i o n a n d M a jo r G e n e r a l S i b i y a t h e n t h e P r o v i n c ia l Head of Gauteng were a ll e g e d ly i m p l ic a t e d i n th e s e u n la w f u l r e n d i ti o n s .” 20 C o r r e c t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u h a v e s t a t e d th a t th e in v e s t i g a t io n s w e r e f ir s t i n i t ia t e d u n d e r C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 1 0 : Page 17 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 “ I P I D in i ti a te d a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n in t o th i s m a tt e r overseen by A d v o c a te M o s i n g P r o s e c u t in g A u th o r i ty Mr Innocent Khuba Limpopo. the of th e N a t io n a l a s s is te d P r o v i n c ia l by Head IPID O n 2 2 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 I P I D is s u e d i ts f ir s t r e p o r t t h e J a n u a r y R e p o r t w h ic h c o n c l u d e d th a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S i b iy a w e r e i n v o l v e d in th e i ll e g a l r e n d i t io n s o f t h e Z i m b a b w e a n s . It recommended that criminal charges be brought a g a in s t t h e m .” 10 T h a t is q u a l i fi e d b y y o u r e v i d e n c e w h ic h s a y s th a t p r i o r to t h e in v e s t i g a t io n by IPID Crime I n t e l li g e n c e had conducted i ts in v e s t i g a t io n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e n p a r a g r a p h 11 : C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A c t u a lly a s I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t h e y k i n d o f h a n d e d o v e r to – C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e h a n d e d o v e r t o I P I D t o s a y c o n ti n u e ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: 20 Ye s C h a ir. I t h in k f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h e j u d g m e n t a n d t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l c h a l l e n g e t h e e x a c t d e t a i ls w e r e n o t b r o u g h t. C H A I R P E R S O N : [I n t e r v e n e s ] . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : B e f o r e t h e c o u r t. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : A n d h e n c e J u d g e B o s i e l o is r a is i n g t h e Page 18 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 is s u e s a s is e v id e n t a n d in fr o n t o f y o u . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. N o , n o t h a t is n o t h a t is fi n e . I t h in k , I t h i n k M r Pr e to r i u s a n d I w e r e n o t a s k in g b e c a u s e w e w e r e s a y i n g t h i s is n o a c c u r a te b u t t o s a y w e h a v e h a d t h e b e n e f i t o f m o r e d e t a i ls fr o m y o u . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 11 r e a d s : “ Mr K h u b a e x p l a i n e d i n h i s a ffi d a v i t t h a t b e c a u s e h e r e g a r d e d t h e J a n u a r y R e p o r t a s p r o v i s io n a l h e 10 c o n ti n u e d w i th h is in v e s ti g a t io n s . H is in v e s t i g a t io n s g a v e b i r t h t o a s e c o n d r e p o r t d a t e d 18 March 2014. s ig n e d b y D ir e c t o r The March R e p o r t w h ic h w a s Mr K h u b a , M r M a tt h e w s S e s o k o IPID In v e s ti g a t io n and Chief I n f o r m a ti o n M a n a g e m e n t a n d M r M c B r i d e . C o n t r a r y t o th e fir s t r e p o r t t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t c o n c l u d e d th a t t h e r e w a s no evidence General Sibiya i m p l ic a ti n g in the Ge neral Dramat il le g a l r e n d i ti o n s of and the Zi m b a b w e a n s . As a r e s u l t it r e c o m m e n d e d th a t n o 20 criminal charges be brought against them. This r e p o r t w a s s u b m i tt e d t o t h e N a t i o n a l D i r e c t o r o f P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s fo r a d e c is io n o n p o s s i b l e p r o s e c u t i o n o n 1 3 A p r i l 2 0 1 5 .” Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . Page 19 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u h a v e t e s ti f ie d in a d d i ti o n t o t h e m a t t e r s d e a l t w it h b y t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t w i th t h e d is t in c ti o n b e t w e e n th e r e p o r t o n th e o n e h a n d a n d th e s t a t e m e n ts c o n t a in e d i n t h e d o c k e t o r c a s e fi l e s o n th e o th e r ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e d o n o t n e e d t o a d d r e s s t h a t a g a in . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 A l t h o u g h t h e r e p o r t b e i n g th e M a r c h o r s e c o n d r e p o r t d i ffe r e d fr o m t h e fi r s t r e p o r t . A ll th e u n d e r l y i n g e v i d e n c e r e m a i n e d u n c h a n g e d i n th e c a s e fi le o r d o c k e t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 1 2 : “ F a c e d w i t h t h e g l a r in g d is c r e p a n c i e s i n t h e t w o r e p o r t s th e M i n i s te r s u s p e c te d s e r i o u s t a m p e r i n g . A s a r e s u l t h e c o m m is s i o n e d W e r k s m a n s A t t o r n e y s t o i n v e s ti g a t e t h e t w o r e p o r ts . R e ly i n g o n th e J a n u a r y R e p o r t a n d t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n b y W e r k s m a n s t h e M i n is t e r i n v o k e d t h e s e p o w e r s i n t e r m s o f 20 S e c t io n 6 6 o f t h e I P I D A c t , t h e P u b l ic S e r v ic e A c t and Chapter 7 of the Senior Management Services H a n d b o o k a n d p l a c e d M r M c Br i d e o n p r e c a u t io n a r y suspension on 24 March 2015. A c ti n g on the s tr e n g t h o f S e c t i o n 6 6 ( A) o f t h e I P I D A c t r e a d w i t h t h e p r o v is i o n s g o v e r n i n g d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e e d in g s Page 20 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 under the P u b lic S e r v ic e Act and the IPID R e g u l a ti o n s t h e M i n i s t e r s e r v e d M r Mc B r i d e w i t h a n o t ic e t o a t t e n d a d is c i p l in a r y i n q u i r y.” A n d th e n r e f e r e n c e is m a d e t o t h e H i g h C o u r t j u d g m e n t a n d th e fi n d i n g s m a d e b y th e H ig h C o u r t w h i c h to a g r e a te r o r a l e s s e r e x t e n t w e r e c o n fir m e d b y th e C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t . P a r a g r a p h 1 3 r e a d s : “ T h e M i n is t e r ’s a c ti o n s s t u n g M r M c Br i d e i n t o a defensive mode. M r M c Br id e i n s t it u t e d a n u r g e n t a p p lic a ti o n b e fo r e th e H ig h C o u r t f ir s t l y fo r a n 10 in t e r i m i n te r d ic t to r e s tr a i n the M i n is t e r fro m s u s p e n d in g h i m a n d s e c o n d l y f o r a n o r d e r d e c l a r in g c e r t a i n s e c ti o n s o f t h e I P I D Ac t .” W e ll l e t m e r e a d d ir e c t ly. “ Se c t i o n 6 3 ( A ) a n d S e c ti o n 6 6 o f t h e I P I D Ac t , R e g u l a ti o n 1 3 o f th e I P I D R e g u l a t i o n s , Se c ti o n s 1 6 A ( 1 ) , 1 6 B , 1 7 ( 1 ) a n d ( 2 ) o f t h e P u b li c S e r v ic e A c t o n ly i n s o f a r a s t h e y a p p l y t o t h e Ex e c u ti v e D ir e c to r o f I P D .” A n d I a m g o i n g t o e li d e th e q u o te a l i tt l e . 20 “ C e r ta i n p a r a g r a p h s o f t h e S M S H a n d b o o k d e c l a r in g t h e m c o n s t it u ti o n a ll y in v a li d a n d s e t ti n g t h e m a s i d e . I n a d d it i o n Mr M c B r i d e s o u g h t a n o r d e r t o r e v ie w a n d s e t a s id e t h e d e c is i o n b y t h e M i n is t e r t o s u s p e n d h i m a s t h e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r o f I P I D a n d t o i n s t i tu t e d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e e d i n g s a g a in s t h i m . Page 21 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 T h e M i n i s te r t h e n o p p o s e d t h e a p p l ic a t i o n . ” P a r a g r a p h 1 5 if w e c a n s k i p a f e w – a t le a s t o n e p a r a g r a p h . “ T h e H i g h C o u r t f o u n d th a t t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f IPID is e x p r e s s ly guaranteed and protected g u a r a n te e d a n d p r o t e c t e d u n d e r 2 0 6 ( 6 ) o f t h e C o n s t i tu t io n w h ic h is s i g n i fic a n t a n d d e c is i v e .” T h a t is a q u o te fr o m t h e – t h e w o r d s s i g n i fic a n t a n d d e c is iv e a r e a q u o t e f r o m t h e H i g h C o u r t ju d g m e n t . “ F u r t h e r m o r e t h e H i g h C o u r t r e a s o n th a t g iv e n t h a t 10 I P I D p e r f o r m s o v e r la p p i n g a n ti - c o r r u p ti o n fu n c t io n s w i t h th e D P C I – th a t i s th e H a w k s – i t m u s t b e a ffo r d e d a t le a s t th e e q u iv a le n t p r o t e c ti o n s th a t t h e C o n s t i tu t io n r e q u ir e s f o r D P C I . In G l e n is t e r – th a t is a n o t h e r ju d g m e n t o f th e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t – G le n i s te r I I t h is c o u r t fo u n d t h a t t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e of th e DPCI r e q u ir e m e n t was f lo w i n g an fr o m i m p l ic i t c o n s t it u ti o n a l S e c t io n 2 of the C o n s t i tu t io n a n d t h e t h r e a t t o S o u t h A fr ic a p o s e d b y e n d e m ic c o r r u p ti o n .” 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k S e c ti o n 7 ( 2 ) M r P r e to r i u s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I a m s o r r y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k y o u r e a d S e c t io n 2 f l o w in g fr o m S e c t io n 2 . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d I? s o r r y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . S e c ti o n 7 ( 2 ) , j a . Page 22 of 170 I t is S e c t io n 7 ( 2 ) . I a m 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : “ T h e H i g h C o u r t fo u n d that inasmuch as the DPCI is independent despite there b e in g no expressed in fr in g e m e n t o f i t s i n d e p e n d e n c e r e a s o n in g “ th e e ff e c t of c o n s t it u ti o n a l by th e p a r i ty o ff c o n s t it u ti o n a l in fr in g e m e n t o f th e in d e p e n d e n c e o f I P I D i s t h a t t h e o p e r a ti o n a l a n d s tr u c t u r a l in d e p e n d e n c e o f I P I D m u s t b e a t l e a s t a s s tr o n g ly p r o t e c t e d a s t h a t o f t h e D P C I .” ” 10 Do you see that? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: Yo u have given e v id e n c e M r Mc B r i d e o f a r a n g e o f i n c i d e n c e a n d o c c u r r e n c e s w h i c h t h e l e g a l t e a m w il l c o n s id e r a n d y o u r c o n t e n t io n i s t h a t o n s e v e r a l fr o n t s t h e in d e p e n d e n c e of IPID was interfered with b o th in respect of in v e s t i g a t io n s o f I P I D a n d in r e s p e c t o f p r o c e e d in g s i n s t it u t e d a g a i n s t y o u r s e l f a n d o th e r o ffic e r s o f I P I D . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 20 A n d th a t w a s th e b a s is u p o n w h ic h y o u w e n t t o t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S p e c if ic a l ly in t h i s c a s e i n r e l a ti o n t o d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e e d i n g s ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Th a t is c o r r e c t . myself. Page 23 of 170 A g a i n s t i n p a r tic u la r 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e n p a r a g r a p h 1 6 r e a d s : “ T h e H i g h C o u r t w e n t f u r th e r to h o l d t h a t I P I D s c o n s ti t u ti o n a ll y g u a r a n t e e d i n d e p e n d e n c e r e q u ir e s m o r e s t r i n g e n t p r o t e c ti o n . T h i s i s b e c a u s e u n li k e t h e D P C I w h i c h i s s i t u a t e d w i th in S A P S – t h e S o u th A fr ic a n P o li c e S e r v i c e s – I P I D is in s ti t u t i o n a ll y a n d f u n c t i o n a l ly in d e p e n d e n t f r o m S A P S . ” A n d t h e n a t th e e n d o f p a r a g r a p h 1 6 t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a l C o u r t m a k e s t h e f o ll o w i n g f u r t h e r c o m m e n t o n th e H i g h C o u r t j u d g m e n t . 10 “ I n th is r e g a r d t h e H ig h C o u r t h e l d t h a t I P I D s o v e r s ig h t r o le o v e r t h e D P C I w o u l d b e c o m p r o m is e d a n d m i g h t c r e a te r o o m f o r p o li t ic a l i n t e r f e r e n c e t o s e e p th r o u g h a n d r e n d e r t h e D P C Is i n d e p e n d e n c e n u g a to r y.” I t a p p e a r s th a t th e o b s e r v a ti o n m a d e b y t h e H ig h C o u r t q u o t e d b y o r r e fe r r e d to b y th e C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t w a s th a t t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f I P I D o n t h e h a n d a n d t h e H a w k s o n t h e o t h e r a r e i n t e r r e la t e d a n d f u n c t i o n a l ly b o t h n e e d t o b e p r o te c te d i n o r d e r to g u a r a n t e e t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l i n d e p e n d e n c e o f e a c h o f t h e m . I t t h a t c o r r e c t? 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: And th e n paragraph 17: c r u c i a l ly t h e H ig h C o u r t h e l d th a t t h e v a r io u s s e c ti o n s o f t h e v a r io u s p i e c e s o f l e g i s l a ti o n I h a v e r e f e r r e d t o a r e i n c o n s is t e n t w i t h S e c ti o n 2 0 6 ( 6 ) o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n in p a r ti c u la r a n d I q u o t e o n c e m o r e : “ T h i s w a s b a s e d o n th e f a c t th a t t h e i m p u g n e d Page 24 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 s e c t io n s d o n o t p r o v i d e f o r p a r l ia m e n t a r y o v e r s ig h t in r e la t io n t o t h e s u s p e n s io n , d i s c i p li n e o r r e m o v a l o f t h e Ex e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r a n d th a t t h e y a ffo r d t h e M i n is t e r u n il a t e r a l p o w e r s a n d t h e s o l e d is c r e t io n to t e r m in a t e t h e Ex e c u ti v e D i r e c t o r s t e n u r e .” A p a r t fr o m t h e m o r e g e n e r a l o b s e r v a t i o n s th a t i s a n a r r o w is s u e c o n s i d e r e d b y t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t . T h e n if w e c a n m o v e t o p a r a g r a p h 2 4 w h e r e t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t m a d e t h e f o l l o w i n g remarks: 10 “ I P I D i s a n i n d e p e n d e n c e p o l ic e c o m p l a in ts b o d y e s t a b li s h e d i n t e r m s o f S e c t io n 2 0 6 ( 6 ) o f t h e C o n s t i tu t io n . S e c ti o n 4 ( 1 ) o f t h e I P I D A c t r e q u i r e s it t o f u n c ti o n i n d e p e n d e n tl y o f th e S o u t h A f r ic a n P o lic e S e r v i c e s . T h i s i s t o e n s u r e t h a t I P I D i s a b le t o i n v e s ti g a t e c a s e s o r c o m p la i n t s a g a i n s t th e p o li c e w i th o u t a n y fe a r, f a v o u r o r p r e ju d i c e o r u n d u e e x te r n a l i n f l u e n c e . S e c t i o n 4 ( 2 ) o f t h e I P I D A c t r e q u i r e s t h a t e a c h o r g a n o f s ta t e a s s is t th e D ir e c t o r a te 20 perform to i ts m a i n ta in f u n c ti o n s i ts i m p a r ti a li ty a ff e c tiv e ly. and to I m p o r t a n t ly S e c t io n 2 o f t h e I P I D A c t r e q u ir e s I P I D t o p l a y a n o v e r s ig h t r o le o v e r S A P S a n d m u n ic ip a l p o l ic e s e r v ic e s . of the Given the nature, scope and importance role played by p o l ic e in preventing c o m b a t ti n g a n d i n v e s ti g a ti n g c r i m e I P ID s o v e r s ig h t Page 25 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 role is of cardinal importance. Th is is a i m e d a t e n s u r i n g a c c o u n t a b i li ty a n d tr a n s p a r e n c y b y S A P S a n d t h e m u n ic i p a l p o l ic e s e r v ic e s i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e p r i n c i p le s o f th e C o n s t i tu t i o n .” M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u r e v id e n c e i f i t is t o b e s u m m a r i s e d i n a s in g le c o n c e p t is t h a t t h a t i n d e p e n d e n c e w a s o n a n u m b e r o f o c c a s i o n s t e s ti f ie d to b y y o u . I t d i d n o t o c c u r ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Then if we can go through to p a r a g r a p h 3 9 p le a s e ? T h e C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t r e m a r k s h e r e : “ To s u b je c t th e E x e c u tiv e D ir e c to r o f I P I D w h ic h t h e C o n s t i tu t io n d e m a n d s to b e i n d e p e n d e n t t o th e l a w s g o v e r n in g t h e P u b li c S e r v ic e t o th e e x t e n t t h a t t h e y e m p o w e r t h e M i n i s t e r t o u n i la t e r a l ly a n d in t e r f e r e w i t h th e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r ’s t e n u r e is s u b v e r s iv e o f I P I D ’s i n s ti t u ti o n a l a n d fu n c t io n a l i n d e p e n d e n c e a s it t u r n s t h e E x e c u tiv e D ir e c to r i n to a p u b l i c s e r v a n t s u b j e c t to t h e p o l i tic a l c o n tr o l o f t h e M i n is t e r. ” 20 P a r a g r a p h s 4 0 a n d 4 1 w h ic h I i n t e n d a l s o t o r e a d o n to t h e r e c o r d expand upon this point. Paragraph 40 reads: “ W i th o u t a d e q u a te i n d e p e n d e n c e , it w o u l d b e e a s y f o r t h e M in is t e r to u s u r p th e p o w e r o f t h e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r u n d e r t h e g u is e o f e x e r c is i n g p o l it ic a l a c c o u n t a b i li ty o r o v e r s ig h t o v e r I P I D in t e r m s o f Page 26 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 S e c t io n 2 0 6 ( 1 ) o f t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n . a c ti n g u n i la t e r a l ly th e In t h is c a s e M in is t e r invoked the p r o v i s i o n s o f S e c ti o n 1 6 A( 1 ) o f th e P u b l i c S e r v i c e A c t a n d p la c e d Mr M c B r i d e o n s u s p e n s io n a n d in s t i tu t e d d is c i p l in a r y proceedings against him. U n d o u b t e d ly s u c h c o n d u c t h a s t h e p o t e n t ia l t o expose IPID to c o n s t i tu t io n a l ly e x e c u tiv e o r p o l it ic a l c o n tr o l . consonant with the n o t io n i m p e r m is s i b l e T h a t a c t i o n is n o t of the o p e r a t io n a l a u t o n o m y o f I P I D a s a n i n s ti t u ti o n . P u t c la i m in g i t 10 is in c o n s is t e n t C o n s t i tu t io n . with Section 206(6) of th e I t f o ll o w s t h a t it is i n v a l id a n d m u s t b e s e t a s i d e .” I t m a y b e a n d w e w i ll a d d r e s s t h i s is s u e a n d i t m a y b e r a t h e r a n o b v i o u s c o n c lu s i o n t o d r a w t h a t t h e W e r k s m a n s i n v e s ti g a t i o n w h i c h w e a r e d e a li n g w i th a t p r e s e n t f e l l w it h in t h e a m b i t o f th o s e s u s p e n s i o n and d is c i p l in a r y d is r e g a r d e d for proceedings the and purposes of should a c c o r d in g l y obeying th e also be c o n s t it u ti o n a l in d e p e n d e n c e p r e s c r i p ts o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n . 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : A b s o l u te ly. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : And that was the point you raised? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 4 1 r e a d s : “ Al l th is s h o u l d b e s e e n a g a i n s t t h e e x t e n s iv e Page 27 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 p o w e r s I P I D h a s t o i n v e s ti g a te t h e p o lic e . S e c t i o n 2 8 o f t h e I P I D A c t a u th o r is e s t h e D i r e c t o r a te t o in v e s t i g a t e a w h o le v a r i e t y o f m a t t e r s .” T h e y a r e t h e n m e n t i o n e d . Yo u h a v e t e s t i fi e d t o t h o s e i n y o u r e v i d e n c e . I t c o n t in u e s fu r t h e r d o w n : “ Se c t i o n 28(1)(g) in v e s t i g a t e S e c t io n authorises corruption 28(2) the w it h in empowers the the D ir e c t o r a t e p o li c e to w h il e D ir e c t o r a t e to in v e s t i g a t e s y s t e m ic c o r r u p ti o n w i t h i n t h e p o lic e 10 force. Th e r e h a v e i n r e c e n t y e a r s b e e n a ll e g e d in s t a n c e s o f p o l ic e b r u t a l it y a n d k i ll in g s p e r p e tr a t e d a g a in s t c iv il ia n s . U n d o u b te d l y t h e s e a r e v e r y s e r io u s m a t te r s w h ic h a ff e c t t h e p u b lic . N a tu r a ll y t h e p u b lic h a s a d ir e c t in t e r e s t i n s e e i n g t h e s e matters b e in g v i g o r o u s ly pursued and properly in v e s t i g a t e d . I P I D h a s g i v e n t h is r e s p o n s ib il it y. I t is c a s t i n th e r o l e o f a w a t c h d o g o v e r t h e p o li c e . I t is t h e r e f o r e n e c e s s a r y t o it s c r e d ib il i ty a n d t h e p u b lic c o n fi d e n c e th a t i t b e n o t o n ly i n d e p e n d e n t 20 b u t th a t i t m u s t a l s o b e s e e n t o b e i n d e p e n d e n t to undertake this d a u n t in g ta s k w i th o u t any in t e r fe r e n c e a c tu a l o r p e r c e i v e d b y t h e M in is te r.” T h e n i f I m a y g o f in a lly t o p a r a g r a p h 4 3 M r M c Br id e . I t r e a d s : “ To my mind the a c c u m u la t iv e e ff e c t of th e i m p u g n e d s e c ti o n s h a s th e p o te n ti a l t o d i m i n is h t h e Page 28 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 c o n fi d e n c e t h e p u b l ic s h o u l d h a v e i n I P I D a s t h e a m ic u s c u r ia e e m p h a s is e d i n it s s u b m i s s io n s b o t h the in d e p e n d e n c e and the appearance of in d e p e n d e n t I P I D a r e c e n t r a l to t h is m a t t e r. an The m a n n e r in w h ic h t h e M i n i s te r d e a lt w i t h M r M c Br i d e demonstrates M i n is t e r ’s without powers doubt are. how in v a s iv e the W h a t e x a c e r b a te s the s i tu a ti o n is t h a t h e a c te d u n i l a t e r a lly. T h i s d e s tr o y s t h e v e r y c o n f id e n c e w h ic h t h e p u b lic s h o u l d h a v e 10 that IPID w i ll b e a b le w it h o u t u n d u e p o li t ic a l in t e r fe r e n c e t o i n v e s t ig a t e c o m p l a i n ts a g a i n s t t h e p o li c e f e a r l e s s ly a n d w i t h o u t fa v o u r o r b i a s . IPID m u s t th e r e f o r e n o t o n ly b e i n d e p e n d e n t b u t m u s t b e s e e n t o b e s o . W i t h o u t e n j o y in g t h e c o n f id e n c e o f the p u b li c IPID w i ll not be able to fu n c t i o n e ffe c t iv e l y a s t h e p u b l ic m i g h t b e d is i n c li n e d o r r e l u c t a n t t o r e p o r t th e ir c a s e s to it .” T h e c o n c l u s i o n is b a s e d o n t h e a b o v e e x p o s i t io n a n d t h is is p a r a g r a p h 44. I conclude that: 20 “ T h e i m p u g n e d s e c t i o n s d o n o t p a s s c o n s t it u ti o n a l m u s t e r. I t f o l lo w s th a t t h e o r d e r o f c o n s t it u ti o n a l a n d i n v a li d i ty b y t h e H i g h C o u r t m u s t b e c o n f ir m e d .” A n d th e n a s a r e s u l t o f t h a t a n a ly s is in p a r a g r a p h 5 8 c e r t a i n s e c t io n s o f t h e v a r io u s s t a tu t o r y p r o v i s i o n s o r s t a t u te s w e r e d e c l a r e d i n v a li d . Paragraph 4 on page 1329 of EXHIBIT YC reads: Page 29 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 “ I t is d e c l a r e d th a t t h e d e c is i o n o f th e M in is te r o f P o lic e to suspend Mr Robert McBride fr o m his p o s i ti o n a s E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r o f t h e I n d e p e n d e n t P o lic e I n v e s ti g a tiv e D i r e c t o r a te is i n v a l id a n d is s e t a s i d e .” And paragraph 6 reads: “ I t is d e c l a r e d th a t t h e d e c is i o n o f th e M in is te r o f P o lic e to in s ti t u t e th e d is c i p l in a r y i n q u ir y a g a in s t Mr Robert McBride w h ic h was to com mence on 2 1 M a y 2 0 1 5 is i n v a l i d a n d is s e t a s i d e . ” 10 T h a t w a s th e o u tc o m e o f t h e j u d g m e n t . S o i n s o f a r a s t h e d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e e d i n g s i n s ti t u te d a s t h e c o n s e q u e n c e o f a d e c i s i o n b y t h e M in is t e r – th e r e le v a n t M i n is t e r w e r e s e t a s i d e t h a t w o u l d i n e v i t a b ly c a s t a s h a d o w o v e r t h e p a r t o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s le a d i n g u p to y o u r r e c o m m e n d e d d is m is s a l c o n d u c te d b y W e r k s m a n s a t t h e i n s t a n c e o f t h e M i n is t e r. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Is t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f th e matter? 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : If we can then return then to y o u r s t a t e m e n t o r r a th e r t h e tr a n s c r ip t o f y o u r in t e r v i e w b e f o r e W e r k s m a n s . Yo u s a y - i t is r e c o r d e d t h a t y o u s a y i n th e p a r a g r a p h a t t h e b o t t o m o f p a g e 8 8 8 a n d w e a r e b a c k n o w ( a d v o c a te m o v e s a w a y fr o m m ic ) . Page 30 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I h a v e g o t i t. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O n p a g e 8 8 8 o f t h e tr a n s c r i p t y o u a r e r e c o r d e d a s h a v i n g s a id : “ O n m y a p p o i n t m e n t I h a d a s k e d f o r a b r ie f in g o n a l l h i g h p r o fi le c a s e s i n c l u d i n g th e m a t te r o f S ib iy a a n d D r a m a t, t h e r e n d i ti o n s a g a .” Yo u s e e t h a t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t , y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 Yo u e x p l a i n t h a t t o W e r k s m a n s , M r J u ly a s y o u h a v e a lr e a d y t e s t if i e d t o t h e C h a ir. I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : At the bottom of page 889 you a n d b e c a u s e th e s e a r e y o u r w o r d s p e r h a p s y o u s h o u l d p l a c e t h e m o n record. W h a t d i d y o u t e ll W e r k s m a n s c o n c e r n i n g t h e in v e s t i g a t io n b y C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e ? I f y o u c o u ld ju s t r e a d t h e f ir s t fe w l in e s o f t h e la s t paragraph on page 889 of EXHIBIT YB. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h e s e c o n d is s u e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o , t h e fi r s t is s u e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : O k a y. 20 “ My i s s u e in t h e b r ie f in g … ” A n d I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e e x a c t s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts . “ … w a s fi r s tly C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e w a s i n v o l v e d in th e c a s e fr o m th e b e g in n i n g . [ I n te r v e n e s ] .” A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e s e c o n d is s u e y o u r a i s e d . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: “ T h e s e c o n d i s s u e w a s th a t Page 31 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 m y p r e d e c e s s o r a c ti n g M s M b e k i h a d t o l d K h u b a – M r K h u b a ju s t r e p o r t d ir e c tly to m e . D o n o t r e p o r t to.” A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D o n o t r e p o r t t o . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: And. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e r e is a w o r d mi s s in g . What w o u ld t h a t w o r d b e ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Sesoko. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 R i g h t a n d t h e n a t l in e fiv e y o u m a k e c e r t a i n fu r t h e r r e m a r k s . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: “So for me a lr e a d y in d e p e n d e n c e in t h e in v e s t i g a t io n w a s c o m p r o m is e d t h e w a y i t h a d b e e n s a i d . In o th e r w o r d s b y p a s s e d a h e a d o f i n v e s t ig a ti o n s . T h o s e w e r e m y is s u e s i m m e d i a t e ly t h a t w a s my c o n c e r n .” A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o r ig h t a t t h e o u ts e t i t a p p e a r s y o u r a is e d t w o i s s u e s b e fo r e W e r k s m a n s . T h e o n e w a s th e g e n e r a l c o m p la i n t r e a l ly a c o n s t i tu t io n a l i s s u e a s i t tu r n e d o u t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t th e M i n is te r s h o u ld i n i t ia t e t h e s e p r o c e e d i n g s a g a i n s t y o u a t l e a s t f u r t h e r t o t h e e x te n t o f employing a p r iv a t e law f ir m – Werksmans – to conduct th e in v e s t i g a t io n . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a n k s C h a ir a n d a l s o j u s t t o s a y in t h e in t e r v ie w w i th Mr J u ly I a m r e p o r ti n g o n m y fir s t m e e ti n g w i t h M r K h u b a Page 32 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 a n d th e i m m e d i a t e c o n c e r n s t h a t I r a is e d w i t h h i m w h e n b e in g b r o u g h t u p t o d a t e w it h t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s in w h ic h th is c a s e a r r i v e d a t I P I D . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Right. S o n o t o n ly a r e y o u r a i s i n g t h e – le t u s p u t i t – t h e e x t e r n a l c o n c e r n th a t t h e M i n i s te r h a d in it i a t e d th is w h o l e p r o c e s s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : And we have dealt with the C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t j u d g m e n t in t h a t r e s p e c t b u t a l s o t h e r e c e i p t b y y o u o f is s u e s t h a t c o n c e r n e d y o u a b o u t t h e i n t e r n a l in d e p e n d e n c e o f 10 t h e w h o l e in v e s t i g a t iv e p r o c e s s n o t o n ly t h e f a c t t h a t C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e h a d c o n d u c t e d t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n a s w e k n o w i n t o i ts o w n m e m b e r s a n d , but s e c o n d ly that even w i th i n IPID th e in d e p e n d e n c e of the in v e s t i g a t io n s e e m e d to b e c o m p r o m is e d . A ll th o s e i s s u e s w e r e p l a c e d before Werksmans? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w h a t y o u a r e a ls o s a y i n g to W e r k s m a n s a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t is t h a t w h e n y o u a s k e d f o r y o u r r e p o r t a n d y o u r e c e i v e d t h e r e p o r t o n y o u r a s s u m p t io n o f o ff ic e t h e s e m a t t e r s w e r e r e la t e d t o y o u a n d t h e y w e r e o f s o m e c o n c e r n t o y o u a b o u t t h e 20 p r o p r i e t a r y o f t h e w h o l e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t l e d t o t h e is s u i n g o f w h a t m a y b e t e r m e d t h e f ir s t r e p o r t . A m I c o r r e c t ? T h a t is t h e r e m a r k y o u h a v e ju s t m a d e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E: Ye s . T h a t is m y, m y c o n c e r n s a b o u t how the document reads, the docket reads. IPID, how it was prepared b y C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e a n d t h e i n v o lv e m e n t o f C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e a n d t h e Page 33 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 e x c lu s i o n o f th e N a ti o n a l H e a d o f I n v e s ti g a t io n s a n d s i n i s t e r s e c r e c y a tt a c h e d t o w h a t w a s e x p e c t e d o f M r K h u b a w h ic h M r K h u b a r a i s e d a l s o w i t h m e i n i ti a lly t h a t h e h i ms e lf w a s c o n c e r n e d b u t w a s p u t u n d e r undue pressure. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e n y o u r a is e d a f u r th e r is s u e a t t h e to p o f p a g e 8 9 0 . W o u l d y o u p l a c e t h a t o n r e c o r d p l e a s e ? Fr o m li n e 2 . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . “ T h i s is w h a t I w a s t o l d . Th e n a ls o th a t … ” 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B y K h u b a ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . T h a t is r i g h t s ir. “Then also that he must work with the Crime I n t e lli g e n c e g u y a n d th e C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e g u y a l s o li n k e d h i m u p w i t h A d v o c a te M o s i n g . S o fo r m e a lr e a d y i n d e p e n d e n t i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s c o m p r o m is e d t h e w a y i t h a d b e e n s a i d . In o th e r w o r d s b y p a s s e d t h e H e a d o f I n v e s ti g a t i o n s . T h o s e a r e m y is s u e s i m m e d i a t e ly. T h a t w a s my c o n c e r n .” A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C o n ti n u e t h e n a t li n e 1 0 . 20 MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: “I was a ls o concerned b e c a u s e i t b e c a m e a p p a r e n t th a t C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e o p e r a ti v e s w e r e in v o lv e d i n th e arrest of the Zi m b a b w e a n s th e m s e lv e s . T h e y w e r e a l s o in v o lv e d in th e i ll e g a l r e p a t r i a ti o n . T h o s e a r e m y c o n c e r n s . T h e n I q u e s ti o n e d b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e m a n y p e o p le Page 34 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 in v o lv e d w h o w a s i n v o l v e d a t w h a t s t a g e i n t h i s c r i m e t h a t y o u m e n t i o n e d to m e a n d t o w h a t e x te n t . I a ls o a s k e d w h a t c r i m e h a s b e e n c o m m i t t e d b y w h o a n d w h o w a s i n v o l v e d in i t. W h a t a r e t h e e l e m e n ts o f th a t c r i m e ? Th a t is w h a t i t w a s . B a s ic a lly t h a t i s w h a t i t w a s .” A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : J u s t b e fo r e y o u g o o n i t a p p e a r s a s w e h a v e a lr e a d y r e m a r k e d t o t h e C h a ir th a t C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e w e r e in e ffe c t i n v e s ti g a t i n g t h e ir o w n m e m b e r s ? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Have any of the members of C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e b e in g a r r e s t e d ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: T h e y h a v e b e e n a r r e s t e d p r i o r t o t h is in c i d e n t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B y w h o m ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: B y s o m e o f t h o s e m a k i n g s t a t e m e n ts w h ic h w e r e b r o u g h t to I P I D h a d b e e n a r r e s t e d b y G e n e r a l S i b i y a o n a previous occasion when G e n e r a l M d lu li was appearing in court s u b s e q u e n t t o h a v in g b e e n a r r e s t e d b y G e n e r a l Si b iy a . G e n e r a l Si b iy a 20 a n d h i s t e a m t h e n a r r e s t e d s o m e o f t h e s a m e C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e p e o p le w h o w e r e d r e s s e d i n p l a i n c l o t h e s a n d w e r e p u t t in g t h e D P C I Te a m u n d e r s u r v e il la n c e a n d th e y w e r e t h e n a p p r o a c h e d b y G e n e r a l S ib iy a a n d h is t e a m a n d w e r e a r r e s t e d o n s u s p ic i o n o f a b o u t t o c o m m i t a crime. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: Page 35 of 170 R i g h t. So against the 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 b a c k g r o u n d o f w h a t y o u w e r e t o l d b y M r K h u b a i n r e la t io n t o t h e in d e p e n d e n c e i n v a r io u s r e s p e c ts o f t h e w h o l e i n v e s ti g a ti o n r e l a t i n g t o t h e r e n d i ti o n o r s a g a a n d y o u r c o n c e r n s a b o u t t h e in d e p e n d e n c e o f th e I P I D in v e s ti g a t io n a n d t h e p r o p r ie t a r y o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n y o u t h e n s a y t o W e r k s m a n s y o u d e c id e d t o g o b a c k t o s q u a r e o n e a s w e s a i d l a s t w e e k a n d d e a l w i th t h e e s s e n t ia l e le m e n ts o f a n y c r i m e th a t m i g h t h a v e b e e n c o m m i t t e d t o d o t w o th i n g s , o n e t o r e v i e w t h e w h o l e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t o d a te , a r is i n g fr o m y o u r c o n c e r n s , a n d tw o , t o c o m p le t e t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s b y r e f e r e n c e t o f u r t h e r e v id e n c e i n c l u d in g a n a n a ly s is o f 10 t h e c e ll p h o n e d a t a , i s t h a t w h a t y o u i n e ff e c t to ld W e r k s m a n s ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : Ye s I a l s o i n d ic a t e d t o th e m , I ’ m n o t s u r e w h e r e i t is i n t h e tr a n s c r i p t t h a t I h a d a s k e d t h a t C e c i l c o u l d b e in v o lv e d in a l l a s p e c t s o f th e s u p e r v i s i o n o f th e r e v i e w a n d c o m p l e ti o n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e n i f y o u g o to p a g e 8 9 1 a t li n e 4 w h a t d id y o u te ll W e r k s m a n s t h e r e ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: 8 9 1 w e w e r e d e a l i n g w i th t h e G e n e r a l P iy a g a m a t te r, a n d o n th is m a t t e r o f t h e H a w k s R e n d i ti o n a n d C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e , if m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e c o r r e c tl y t h e r e w a s s o m e o u t s t a n d i n g s t a te m e n ts o r w a r n i n g s t a t e m e n t s a t t h e s t a g e w h e n t h e y 20 spoke to me. I f I ’ m n o t m is t a k e n it c o u ld b e S ib iy a ’s w a r n i n g s t a te m e n t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h e n a g a in s t l i n e 1 5 y o u a r e a s k e d a q u e s ti o n b y M r J u l y, w h a t w a s t h a t q u e s t io n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : H e s a y s c a n I a ls o c l a r i fy th is , i n t h a t m e e ti n g d i d K h u b a in d ic a t e to y o u t h a t o n t h e 2 2 n d o f J a n u a r y I Page 36 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 s u b m i tt e d t h e r e p o r t to t h e N PA . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : And your answer? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : I a n s w e r e d a s fo ll o w s : “ N o , n o , n o , n o w h a t h e d i d te ll m e w a s t h a t h e w a s i n d is c u s s io n s w i t h A d v o c a t e M o s i n g .” N o h e d id n ’ t t e ll m e a n d I d o n ’ t th i n k h e w o u l d h a v e , a n d I d o n ’ t w a n t t o t h i n k o n h is b e h a l f b e c a u s e t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n w a s n o t c o m p le t e a s th e r e w e r e o u t s t a n d i n g s t a te m e n ts . I n fa c e I t h i n k th e r e w a s a s t a t e m e n t fr o m J e n n y Ir is h K o b o s h i y a n e i n t h a t t h in g . 10 I can’t remember the c o n te x t o f i t .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u d o n ’ t h a v e to g o o n b e c a u s e t h a t ’s n o t e n t ir e ly c e n tr a l t o t h e q u e s ti o n s t h a t w e n e e d t o d e a l with. At the bottom of page 892 you make a remark concerning your k n o w l e d g e , a t le a s t a t t h e t i m e a b o u t w h e t h e r y o u w o u l d s e e e a c h a n d e v e r y r e p o r t o r w h e th e r t h e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r w o u l d s e e e a c h a n d e v e r y r e p o r t t h a t g o e s t h r o u g h t o th e N PA , w o u l d y o u ju s t e x p l a i n t h e p o s i ti o n th e n , I ’ m r e fe r r i n g t o y o u r s ta t e m e n t a t l in e 2 2 . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : C h a ir i f I c a n j u s t g o b a c k t o th e p r e v i o u s o n e , I a m a lr e a d y e x p r e s s i n g t o M r J u ly t h e a b s u r d it y o f 20 p l a c in g r e li a n c e o n a p r e li m i n a r y r e p o r t w h e n th e r e a r e s ti ll o u ts t a n d in g s t a te m e n ts a n d o t h e r e v id e n c e t o b e i n c l u d e d i n t h e d o c k e t . In that 8 9 1 i n th e w a y I a n s w e r th e r e , it ’s – t h a t’s w h y I’ m a c t u a ll y g iv in g h i m a lo n g e x p l a n a t io n , i t w a s a lr e a d y o b v i o u s t h a t th e fa c t t h a t th e r e w a s a n e x i s te n c e o f a n o t h e r r e p o r t a n d t h a t it w a s c h a n g e d r e m o v e d t h e b a s ic c o m m o n s e n s e f r o m a ll th o s e w h o h a d b e e n i n v o l v e d i n i t , i n Page 37 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 in v e s t i g a t in g t h i s in v e s ti g a t i o n , t h a t a c t u a lly e v e r y t h i n g th a t h a d t a k e n p l a c e w a s l a w f u l a n d th a t th e c h a n g e s t h a t w e r e l a t e r m a d e in t h e r e p o r t d i d n o t a ff e c t t h e e v id e n c e in i ts t o t a li t y i n t h e d o c k e t , b u t t h e r e s e e m s t o b e a n o b s e s s i o n w i t h th e e x i s t e n c e , t h e m e r e e x is t e n c e o f another previous preliminary report. It was for me – and it blinded p e o p l e f r o m s e e in g t h a t a c t u a ll y o f t h a t w a s i n o r d e r a n d t h a t t h e a d d it i o n a l e v id e n c e h a d to b e p u t i n . B a s ic i s s u e s e v e n m y s e lf n o t a s a l a w y e r k n o w th a t a ll e v i d e n c e h a s t o b e c o n s i d e r e d in it s to t a l i ty, a n d o t h e r p e o p l e w h o a r e 10 la w y e r s w e r e j u s t m is s in g i t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr ig h t . Yo u – w h a t is th e p o s i ti o n w i th r e p o r ts , i s i t tr u e t h a t o n o c c a s i o n P r o v i n c ia l H e a d s in I P I D w o u l d s e n d r e p o r ts d ir e c tl y t o th e N PA w i th o u t t h e m g o in g p a s t you? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : C h a ir o f te n t h e y d o n ’ t – t h e y w o u l d n ’ t e v e n r e a c h Mr K h u b a b e c a u s e th e Pr o v in c ia l H e a d s w i th in th e P r o v in c e a r e a p p o i n te d t h e r e p r e c is e ly t o e n g a g e w i t h t h e N PA i n c o m p l e ti o n o f in v e s t i g a t io n s a n d t h e r e g u l a ti o n s a n d t h e S O P ’s I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) 20 ADV PA U L JOSEPH P R E TO R I U S SC : Standard O p e r a t in g Procedures? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : P r o c e d u r e s y e s , w h ic h o n e s p e c i f ic a l ly d e a ls w i th t h i s , b u t P r o v i n c i a l H e a d s m u s t t h e n s u b m i t t o t h e N PA . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : B u t h o w d o e s th a t t h e n g e l w i t h t h e s ta t u to r y r e q u ir e m e n t s t h a t t h e E x e c u tiv e D i r e c t o r m u s t s i g n Page 38 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 r e p o r t s . I t s e e m s t h a t th e r e ’s a m i s m a tc h t h e r e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : J a , t h e i s s u e s r e l a t e s to w h e n it ’s a n in v e s t i g a t io n d r iv e n fr o m t h e N a t io n a l O ff ic e , t h e n t h e a p p r o p r ia t e p e r s o n t o s e n d i t t o t h e N PA w o u l d b e m e , in t e r m s o f t h e r e g u l a ti o n s a n d p a r t o f t h e A c t , a n d i f i t i n v o lv e s m o r e th a n o n e p r o v i n c e a s w a s t h e s i tu a ti o n i n t h is c a s e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I m u s t s a y I d id n ’ t w h e n w e d e a lt w i t h t h e s t a tu t o r y r e q u i r e m e n ts d i d n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d t h e s t a t u t o r y, t o m a k e t h a t d is ti n c t io n b e t w e e n P r o v i n c i a l a n d N a ti o n a l R e p o r t , i t 10 s e e m e d t o b e a b l a n k e t p r o v is i o n t h a t a ll r e p o r ts t o t h e N PA a n d I p r e s u m e t h a t m e a n s fi n a l d e c i s iv e r e p o r ts , m u s t g o th r o u g h t h e E x e c u t iv e D i r e c t o r, t h a t ’s a s I r e a d t h e s t a tu t e , b u t p e r h a p s I ’ m w r o n g and perhaps you can correct me. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s t h e is s u e s a y s th e Pr o v in c i a l H e a d o r th e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r, a s th e c a s e m i g h t b e , th a t ’s t h e l e g is l a ti o n i n t h e Ac t , o r i t ’s – R e g u la t io n 5 j a , i t m e n t io n s b o t h . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e w il l j u s t c h e c k th a t . T h e n o n p a g e 8 9 3 y o u d e a l w i t h f u r t h e r m a t e r i a l b e fo r e W e r k s m a n s i n r e g a r d t o y o u r k n o w l e d g e o f w h a t r e p o r t s p r o v i s io n a l o r o t h e r w is e h a d g o n e 20 t h r o u g h t o th e N PA a n d a t li n e 5 .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y M r Pr e t o r i u s I d o n ’t k n o w w h e t h e r m a y b e it m i g h t b e w o r th w h i le ju s t m e n ti o n i n g w h a t t h e s t a tu t e s a y s in r e g a r d t o t h a t is s u e b e c a u s e a t l e a s t S e c ti o n 7 ( 4 ) t o th e e x t e n t t h a t t h a t is t h e p r o v i s i o n w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t, i t d o e s n ’t a ls o r e f e r to a r e p o r t , i t s i m p l y s a y s t h e Ex e c u ti v e D ir e c to r m u s t r e fe r c r i m i n a l o ff e n c e s Page 39 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 r e v e a l e d a s a r e s u l t o f a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n t o t h e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o r i ty f o r c r i m i n a l p r o s e c u ti o n a n d n o ti fy t h e M i n is t e r o f s u c h a r e fe r r a l . W o u ld t h a t b e t h e p r o v is i o n t h a t w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t w h e n w e t a lk a b o u t t h e r e q u i r e m e n t t h a t t h e E x e c u ti v e D ir e c to r i s th e o n e w h o m u s t r e f e r m a tt e r s t o th e N PA , o r th a t w o u l d b e a n o th e r o n e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : C h a ir i n d e e d i t i s t h a t p r o v is i o n th a t is w i t h i n th e A c t a n d th e r e l e v a n t r e g u l a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A n d t h e S t a n d a r d O p e r a ti n g P r o c e d u r e 10 r e a d t o g e t h e r s o t h e r e ’s a s p e c i f ic o n e d e a li n g w i t h th a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n c l u d i n g r e p o r t s , t a lk i n g a b o u t r e p o r ts fo r e x a m p l e i n t e r m s o f th e r e g u la t io n s o r th a t ’s w h e r e r e f e r e n c e t o r e p o r ts m i g h t b e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir, o n m y f ir s t d a y o f t e s ti m o n y w e c o v e r e d i t , a n d I r e a d i t o u t t h a t p r o v is io n w h ic h d e a ls with. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A n d a ls o t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e p r a c ti c a li ty o f e v e r y r e p o r t c o m e t h r o u g h th e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r, i t w i ll b e a b o t tl e neck. 20 CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: A n d h e n c e th a t ’s w h y th e Pr o v i n c e s d e a l w it h t h e r e l e v a n t D P P. ADV PA U L JOSEPH P R E TO R I U S SC : How many r e p o r ts a p p r o x i m a te ly p e r y e a r w o u l d t h e I P I D tr a n s f e r to t h e N PA ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: I t w o u l d b e t h o u s a n d s C h a ir, it w o u ld Page 40 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 be thousands. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t b u t th e o v e r a l l d u t y to r e fe r o r t o e n s u r e t h a t r e f e r r a l t a k e s p l a c e I s u p p o s e p o s s ib le t o r e a d in t o 7 4 i s t h a t o f th e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s c o r r e c t . In fa c t i f I c a n ju s t c l a r i fy, t h e W e r k s m a n s ’ r e p o r t f o r w h a te v e r i t ’s w o r th , e x t r a c t s t h a t p a r ti c u l a r p r o v i s i o n t h a t i t , I t h i n k it ’s a R e g u la t io n 3 ( 5 ) ( i) i n t h e r e p o r t w h ic h d e a ls w i th t h i s a s p e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : J a , s o w e d e a lt w it h it o n m y f ir s t d a y o f t e s ti m o n y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th e r e g u l a ti o n s w h ic h a p p e a r a t p a g e 6 2 t a lk o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o f c r i m in a l m a t t e r s , t h a t’s 6 2 o f Ex h ib i t Y H . T h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n m u s t b e d o n e i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h r e g u la t io n 5 , th e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r o r t h e r e l e v a n t P r o v i n c ia l H e a d m u s t d e s i g n a t e a n in s p e c t o r a n d th e n r e g u la ti o n 4 ( e ) r e a d s : “ I f t h e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r o r r e l e v a n t Pr o v in c i a l H e a d a s th e c a s e m a y b e d e t e r m in e s t h a t a fu ll in v e s t ig a ti o n is w a r r a n t e d 20 t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r m u s t a s s o o n a s is p r a c t ic a b le b u t w i t h i n 2 4 h o u r s a f t e r d e te r m in a ti o n . . .” And then I go to (e): “ a f te r c o l l e c ti n g a l l e v id e n c e , s t a te m e n ts , t e c h n ic a l a n d e x p e r t r e p o r t s . . .” And I stress Page 41 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 “ a f te r c o l l e c ti n g a l l e v id e n c e , s t a te m e n ts , t e c h n ic a l a n d e x p e r t r e p o r t s i f a p p lic a b l e s u b m it a fi n a l r e p o r t o n t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t o th e Ex e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r o r t h e r e l e v a n t Pr o v i n c i a l H e a d a s t h e c a s e m a y b e c o n t a i n i n g r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s r e g a r d i n g fu r t h e r a c ti o n w h ic h m a y i n c lu d e d i s c i p l i n a r y m e a s u r e s o r c r i m i n a l p r o s e c u t i o n o f a m e m b e r.” S o i t a p p e a r s th a t a s f a r a s t h e r e g u l a ti o n s a r e c o n c e r n e d th e P r o v i n c ia l H e a d m a y a c t i n a d d i t io n t o t h e Ex e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r b e i n g o b li g e d t o s u b m i t r e fe r r a ls in t e r m s o f th e l e g is la t io n . 10 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: A n d t h a t w o u ld b e s p e c i fic a l ly w i th o ffe n c e s c o m m i t t e d w i th in t h a t s p e c i fic P r o v in c e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E: I t ’s n o t c l a r if i e d l ik e th a t b u t i t ’s t a k e n , t h a t ’s t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e P r o v i n c i a l H e a d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : In any event quite separately fr o m t h a t y o u w e r e m a k in g t w o p o i n ts to W e r k s m a n s , in f a c t i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h y o u r e v id e n c e m o r e b u t t h e t w o p r in c i p a l p o in t s f o r th e m o m e n t w e r e th a t y o u w e r e n ’ t a w a r e o f a n o r i g in a l o r p r o v i n c i a l r e p o r t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A t t h a t s ta g e ? 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : At that stage. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o y o u b e c a m e a w a r e l a t e r. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : T h e s e c o n d p o i n t y o u m a k e is t h a t a t t h e t i m e y o u r e c e iv e d y o u r r e p o r t fr o m K h u b a i n J a n u a r y o f 2 0 1 4 Page 42 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 y o u w e r e s a tis f ie d th a t th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s n o t c o m p le t e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : J u s t .. .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u o r d e r e d a r e v ie w a n d t h e procurement of further evidence? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : J a , t h a t w a s i n M a r c h u p o n m y a r r iv a l , in M a r c h 2 0 1 4 . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Sorry March 2014, that was w h e n t h e r e p o r t w a s m a d e , m y e r r o r. T h e n i n p a r a g r a p h , w e ll t h e fir s t p a r a g r a p h o n p a g e 8 9 3 fr o m l i n e 5 w h a t d i d y o u s a y t o W e r k s m a n s ? 10 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: S o I’ m d o i n g t h is i n te r v i e w w i th W e r k s m a n s in 2 0 1 5 , 1 7 t h o f A p r il a n d I s a y t o t h e m a t t h is s t a g e w h a t I k n o w is th e r e ’s o n e r e p o r t I h a v e s e e n w h ic h I h a v e s i g n e d , th e o n ly is s u e o n th a t r e p o r t w a s t h a t it w a s b a d l y w r i tt e n , t h e r e w a s s p e ll in g e r r o r s , g r a m m a r a n d s t u ff l ik e t h a t, t h e r e w e r e n o o t h e r is s u e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A n d th e n th e q u e s t io n p u t t o y o u a t l i n e 1 4 w h a t w a s th a t q u e s ti o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h i s is M r J u l y ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: 20 “ L e t ’s m a k e t h is s u p p o s i ti o n , i f y o u k n e w a b o u t t h e e x i s te n c e o f t h e r e p o r t w h i c h h a d b e e n g iv e n t o t h e N PA w o u ld y o u h a v e a s k e d f o r t h a t r e p o r t w h ic h h a d g o n e t o th e N PA ? ” My response: “ We ll t h e in v e s ti g a t io n w a s n o t c o m p l e t e d . ” T h a t w a s m y i m p r e s s i o n , i f y o u r e c a ll fr o m t h e p a p e r s w e h a d b r i e f e d Page 43 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 M i n is t e r N te t w a o n t h e s t a t u s o f v a r i o u s o f th e s e h i g h p r o f il e c a s e s , i t w a s ju s t a s t a t u s r e p o r t a n d i t w a s s o o n a ft e r w a r d s , I t h in k I i n d ic a te d it i n t h a t r e p o r t th a t t h e s e c a s e s w e r e i n t h e p r o c e s s o f b e i n g f in a lis e d . I t’s i n t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n n o te th a t y o u w i ll s e e , j u s t a s m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e n o w, a s y o u a s k m e q u e s ti o n s I a m b e i n g r e m i n d e d , th e r e f o r e t h e in v e s t i g a t io n w a s n o t c o m p l e te b e c a u s e i n th e i n f o n o t e I m e n t io n e d t h a t th e i n v e s t ig a t io n s w e r e in t h e p r o c e s s o f b e i n g c o m p l e te d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e n a g a in y o u a r e a s k e d a q u e s t io n a t li n e 7 , w h a t w a s t h a t , o f p a g e 8 9 4 ? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : O k a y, M r J u ly : “ I f K h u b a s a y s t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n w a s c o m p l e te d b u t t h e r e w a s n e w e v i d e n c e t h a t c a m e u p w o u l d h e b e r i g h t in t h a t ? ” A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A s i d e f r o m th e l o g ic i n th a t q u e s t io n j u s t c o n ti n u e . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Ja, he said and he quotes Khuba now: “ I h a d c o m p l e t e d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n b u t t h e r e w a s t h i s n e w e v i d e n c e a b o u t t h e c e l l p h o n e s in r e l a t io n t o S i b i y a w h ic h n e e d e d t o b e ti g h t e n e d u p .” A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 20 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : And then your answer? C h a ir h e is a c t u a l ly c o n tr a d i c t i n g h i m s e l f i n h is q u e s t i o n , b e c a u s e h e is s a y i n g : “ Kh u b a s a y s t h e in v e s t i g a t io n is c o m p le t e , b u t t h e r e ’s o t h e r evidence that needs to be dealt with.” T h e r e f o r e w h a t e v e r K h u b a s a i d , w h a t e v e r M r J u ly s a y s K h u b a s a y s th e in v e s t i g a t io n c a n n o t b e c o m p le t e if t h e r e ’s s ti ll a d d i ti o n a l e v i d e n c e to Page 44 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 a d d t o i t , i t ’s ju s t i ll o g ic a l . I ’ m n o t s u r e w h y s u c h a s t a r k c o n tr a d ic ti o n is n o t p ic k e d u p . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s t h a t ’s – it s a y s w h a t it s a y s , a n d i n th e fi r s t s e n t e n c e W e r k s m a n s s a y t o y o u : “ Kh u b a s a y s th e in v e s ti g a t i o n is c o m p l e te b u t t h e r e ’s n e w evidence, th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n is complete but I’v e got to in v e s t i g a t e f u r t h e r m a tt e r s . ” MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e w i ll s e e w h a t K h u b a s a i d i n 10 d u e c o u r s e a n d i f n e c e s s a r y h e a r M r K h u b a , b u t t h e lo g ic i s o p e n . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : C h a i r . . .( in t e r v e n t io n ) A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : . . . a t le a s t o n t h e fa c e o f i t t o q u e s t io n . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : C h a i r i t ’s p a i n fu l t o l o o k a t t h is b e c a u s e t h e m o r e I g o b a c k to i t I s e e i t w a s q u it e o b v i o u s e v e n t o Mr J u ly, it s h o u l d h a v e b e e n , t h a t a c tu a lly w h a t th e y w e r e o n a b o u t w a s a n n o n e v e n t . W h y th e y s t il l p e r s is t e d b e c o m e s s tr a n g e r a n d s tr a n g e r, a s I g o b a c k th r o u g h t h i s tr a n s c r i p t. 20 CHAIRPERSON : Is it p o s s i b l e to lo o k a t i t t h is w a y, th a t M r K h u b a w h e n h e s u b m i t t e d t h e fir s t r e p o r t r e g a r d e d t h e in v e s ti g a t io n a s c o m p le t e a t t h a t s t a g e , a n d th a t w h a te v e r n e w e v i d e n c e c a m e u p , c a m e u p l a te r, w h ic h m i g h t s tr i c t ly s p e a k i n g h a v e m e a n t t h a t o n c e t h e r e w a s n e w e v i d e n c e i t s h o u ld t h e r e a f te r n o lo n g e r h a v e b e e n r e g a r d e d a s c o m p le t e , b u t fr o m h is p o i n t o f v i e w p r i o r t o n e w e v id e n c e c o m i n g u p i s Page 45 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 it p o s s i b l e t h a t t h a t ’s w h a t th e y a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t , y o u k n o w t h e s i tu a ti o n m u c h b e t t e r t h a n I d o b e c a u s e y o u ’v e l o o k e d a t a ll o f t h e s e t h i n g s a n d d e a l t w i th t h e m . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: C h a ir i n m y e n g a g e m e n ts w i th K h u b a in it i a l ly o n t h e fi r s t d a y a n d s u b s e q u e n t l y a n d e v e n u n til r e c e n t ly h e has never on one occasion told me that that January report was a c o m p le t e d r e p o r t . H e a ls o h a s i n d ic a te d t o m e t h a t h e m a d e t h i s k n o w n t o M r M o s i n g , b u t o n e h a s to p l a c e it i n t h e c o n te x t o f b e in g p r e s s u r e d b y N x l a m e s a a n d b y M o s i n g a n d e v e n t h o u g h i n d ic a te d t o M o s i n g i t 10 h a s n ’ t b e e n s i g n e d b y my E x e c u tiv e D ir e c t o r M o s in g i n s is t e d t h a t i t comes to him. CHAIRPERSON : Hmm, hmm. MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: S o t h a t h a s b e e n K h u b a ’s p o s i t io n f o r e v e r s in c e t h e fi r s t d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , s o t h e s e , s o w h a t M r J u ly w a s t e lli n g y o u I th in k h e s ta r t e d b y s a y i n g s u p p o s e , I ’ m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r t h a t’s – b u t t o t h e e x t e n t th a t h e w a s t e l li n g y o u t h a t M r K h u b a ’s v e r s io n w a s t h a t th a t fir s t r e p o r t th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d th a t f ir s t r e p o r t w a s fi n a l a n d t h a t in v e s t i g a t io n w a s c o m p l e te to th e e x t e n t t h a t th a t ’s w h a t h e w a s s a y in g 20 M r K h u b a t o ld h i m t h a t w a s n e w s t o y o u . Yo u h a d n o t h e a r d t h a t f r o m Khuba or anybody before? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : C h a ir n o t o n ly w a s i t n e w s t o m e , I h a d n o t h e a r d t h a t, I i m m e d i a t e ly b e c a m e s u s p ic i o u s b e c a u s e I h a d n e v e r b e e n t o l d t h a t, I la s t c a m e a c r o s s th is s tr a t e g y o f b u t th e y s a i d t h i s a n d if th e y s a i d t h is w h i c h w o u ld b e to p u t a f a l s i ty to y o u , I la s t c a m e Page 46 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 a c r o s s th is w h i le I w a s b e in g d e t a in e d a n d t o r t u r e d u n d e r S e c ti o n 2 9 i n 1 9 8 6 , is t o fo r c e a c o n f e s s io n o u t o f y o u o n a f a l s e s u p p o s i t io n w h ic h i s t h e n p u t t o y o u s o t h a t ’s w h a t it r e m in d e d o f a n d m y s u s p ic io n b e c a m e h e i g h t e n e d , b y w h y s a y s o m e t h i n g t o s u b s e q u e n tly a n u m b e r o f is s u e s w h ic h M r J u ly p u t to m e a b o u t t h a t M r K h u b a s a i d , K h u b a a c tu a l ly in h is v a r io u s s t a t e m e n t s s u b s e q u e n tl y s a y s h e d i d n ’ t s a y a n d a c tu a lly d r a w s o u r a t t e n t io n t o a s p e c t s i n h is in t e r v i e w w i t h Mr J u ly w h e r e h e s a y s t h i n g s w h i c h a r e o p p o s i te t o w h ic h Mr J u ly p u t a s p u r p o r ti n g t o c o m e fr o m M r K h u b a t o u s , s o t h a t w a s a m a j o r c o n c e r n d u r i n g t h e i n te r v i e w 10 a n d i t ’s . . . CHAIRPERSON : Okay thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u j u s t fo r r e f e r e n c e p u r p o s e s C h a ir y o u d e a l w i th t h i s a t p a g e 1 0 1 8 a t o n e o f y o u r a ffi d a v i ts w h e r e y o u s a y in t h e c o u r t a p p l ic a t i o n , t o w h ic h w e ’v e r e fe r r e d a t p a r a g r a p h 3 2 , t o a v o i d o v e r b u r d e n i n g th e p a p e r s i n t h i s m a t te r I d o n o t a t t a c h c o p i e s o f t h e f u l l tr a n s c r ip t s o f th e i n t e r v i e w s c o n d u c t e d b y W e r k s m a n s w i t h K h u b a , S e s o k o a n d M o s in g , I a tt a c h o n ly t h e p a g e s t h a t I r e f e r t o in t h is a ffi d a v it a n d t h e n y o u o ff e r t o p r o v id e t h e f u l l tr a n s c r ip t t o t h e C o u r t , b u t th e n i n p a r a g r a p h 3 3 y o u s a y : 20 “ I n th e l i g h t o f t h e fa c t s a t t e s t e d t o b y K h u b a a n d S e s o k o a n d r e g a r d le s s o f w h a t M o s i n g , M o k a n q w e o r K h u b a m a y h a v e b e li e v e d a t t h e ti m e i t i s c l e a r th a t t h e J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 r e p o r t w a s n o t a f in a l r e p o r t. ” T h i s i s b e c a u s e , a n d y o u t a l k a b o u t t h e o u ts ta n d i n g e v id e n c e , w a r n i n g s t a te m e n ts and other matters, in c l u d i n g Page 47 of 170 c o m p l ia n c e with th e 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 r e g u la t io n s . T h o s e a r e a l l s u m m a r is e d t h e r e , w e ’v e r e f e r r e d t o t h e m I t h i n k i n e v i d e n c e , b u t w h a t I w a n t t o d o is g o to p a g e 3 0 , p a g e 1 0 2 0 o f t h e s a m e a ffi d a v i t a n d t h a t 1 0 2 0 is in B u n d le . . . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k M r M c Br id e s a y it ’s E x h i b i t Y C . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Y C c o r r e c t C h a ir, p a r a g r a p h 3 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t ’s t h e p a g e a g a i n ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 1 0 2 0 . CHAIRPERSON : 1220? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o 1 0 2 0 C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 0 2 0 , o k a y t h a n k y o u . Ye s ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Reference is made to what M o s i n g s a id in h i s i n t e r v i e w w it h W e r k s m a n s b u t c a n y o u r e c a ll fr o m y o u r o w n m e m o r y o f r e a d i n g t h e tr a n s c r i p t, w e ’ r e g o i n g to c h e c k t h e tr a n s c r ip t s n o w a n d th e r e m a y b e a d i s c r e p a n c y b e t w e e n w h a t is s a i d h e r e a n d w h a t M r M o s i n g s a i d a n d w e a r e c h e c k in g t h a t a n d w e w il l d e a l w it h it a f te r t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t b u t y o u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 3 4 h e r e o f t h e a ff id a v i t: “ Mo s i n g e x p la i n e d i n h i s i n te r v i e w w i t h W e r k s m a n s t h a t h e w r o t e t h e w o r d “ d r a f t” o n t h e J a n u a r y r e p o r t o n r e c e iv in g i t 20 fr o m K h u b a b e c a u s e th e r e p o r t w a s n o t c o m p le t e a n d y o u a tt a c h e d t h e r e le v a n t p a g e s o f t h e tr a n s c r i p t a s R J M 3 .” D o y o u r e c a l l a n y t h i n g a b o u t th a t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s , I r e m e m b e r th a t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Wa s i t n o t a n e a r li e r O c t o b e r r e p o r t t h a t M o s i n g w a s r e fe r r i n g t o ? Page 48 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: I t h i n k t h e is s u e h e r e is t h e J a n u a r y r e p o r t a t a ll ti m e s f o r t h e q u e r y, a n d i t is t h a t r e p o r t , s o M o s i n g a d v a n c e s th is , h e v o lu n t e e r s t h a t h e w r o t e d r a f t o n i t , w h y a d v a n c e s i t I’ m n o t s u r e . he Th e m o m e n t y o u w r i t e d r a f t o n a n y t h in g i t m e a n s i t c a n n o t b e a fi n a l r e p o r t , w h a t e v e r i t is , w h a te v e r c r e a ti v e e x p l a n a t io n h e g i v e s , h e v o l u n te e r s , I’ m n o t s u r e , h e s h o u l d a n s w e r w h y h e v o l u n te e r e d i t b u t h e w r o n g d r a f t o n t h e r e p o r t a n d h e t h e n g o e s o n t o e x p l a i n w h y h e w r o t e d r a f t in q u i t e a c r e a ti v e w a y, b u t in a n y e v e n t fr o m h is e x p l a n a t io n fr o m m e m o r y o n th a t i n t e r v ie w h e is d e a li n g 10 w i t h a d d i t io n a l e v id e n c e o r s t a te m e n ts , w h i ls t h e u n d e r s t a t e s t h e m i n h is explanation he does give an e x p la n a t i o n that something is outstanding. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n a n y e v e n t . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) CHAIRPERSON : I’m sorry Mr Pr e t o r iu s , Mr McBride you are e m p h a s iz i n g t h e s t a tu s o f t h a t fir s t r e p o r t s q u i t e a l o t , a n d I j u s t w a n t y o u t o c o n fir m t h a t y o u e m p h a s iz e i ts s ta t u s a s h a v i n g b e e n a p r e l i mi n a r y r e p o r t o r n o t a fi n a l r e p o r t , o r t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n r e la t in g to i t n o t h a v i n g b e e n c o m p l e t e d b e c a u s e th e p a r t o f t h e p o i n t y o u m a k e i s t h a t t h e m o m e n t it ’s a c c e p t e d t h a t t h a t r e p o r t w a s n o t f i n a l , th e m o m e n t 20 it ’s a c c e p t e d t h a t th a t in v e s t i g a t io n w a s n o t c o m p l e t e th is w h o l e th in g a b o u t t h e c h a r g i n g o f p e o p l e fa ll s a w a y, a n d s h o u l d h a v e f a l le n a w a y, t h e p r o b l e m is w h y i t w a s n o t r e c o g n is e d t h a t th a t in v e s ti g a t io n w a s n o t c o m p le t e a n d th a t th a t r e p o r t w a s a p r e li m i n a r y r e p o r t , th a t ’s p a r t o f the point you make. MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: C h a ir th a t is p a r t o f t h e p o i n t, t h e Page 49 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 s e c o n d p o in t w o u l d b e , a n d t h is is h y p o th e s is , a s s u m i n g it w a s r e g a r d e d b y s o m e p e o p le a n d I m a k e it i n th is a ffi d a v i t , a s c o m p le t e d , t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e w a s a d d i t i o n a l e v id e n c e w h ic h w a s n o t f a c t o r e d i n t h e fir s t o n e , a n d th a t t h e c h a n g e s t h a t w e r e m a d e t o t h e r e p o r t , a n d n o t th e e v i d e n c e i n t h e d o c k e t , w e r e l a w f u l a n d w e r e p r o p e r a n d w e r e n e c e s s a r y, a ls o e s c a p e s a ll th is r a n g e o f l a w y e r s i n th e p r o c e s s . I f y o u ta k e t h e f a c t o r s p e r h a p s i n a n is o l a te d fa s h io n e a c h o f t h e r e a s o n s t h a t w e a r e s p e a k i n g a b o u t o n e c o u ld c o m e t o s o m e r e a s o n a b l e b u t n o t a c c e p t a b le e x p l a n a t io n . I f y o u p u t th e s e q u e n c e o f 10 e v e n t s to g e th e r f o r m e i n m y o p i n i o n th e r e is a d e t e r m i n a t io n t o fi n d g u il ty, o r t o fi n d s c a p e g o a ts s o t h a t y o u c a n d e a l w it h y o u r o r i g in a l a s p e c t o f g e t ti n g r i d o f D r a m a t, s o u l ti m a t e ly t h a t’s th e p l a n , w h e t h e r e v e r y b o d y d o w n s tr e a m k n e w e x a c tly w h a t t h e h i g h e r l e v e l p l a n w a s i t’s u p t o t h e m t o e x p l a i n a n d I th i n k i t w o u l d b e h e l p f u l i f t h e y d o e x p la i n , b u t i f y o u t a k e a ll t h e s e d i ffe r e n t a s p e c ts i n t o a c c o u n t a n d th e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n t s a n d t h e f a il u r e f o r p r o p e r c o m m o n s e n s e t o k i c k i n w i t h l e g a lly tr a in e d m in d s f o r m e i t ’s p r o b l e m a ti c i t’s d i ffi c u l t t o fi n d , t o e v e n u n d e r s t a n d p e r h a p s a n u n a c c e p t a b l e e x p l a n a t io n . CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . P e r h a p s i t is c o r r e c t M r M c Br i d e th a t w e a r e f o c u s s i n g to o m u c h o n th e e x t e n t t o w h ic h o t h e r p e o p l e fo c u s s e d t o o m u c h o n t h e w o r d “ d r a ft ” o r “ p r o v is io n a l” o r “ f in a l ” . T h e tr u t h o f t h e m a t t e r i s y o u r a is e d w h e n y o u w e r e b r i e f e d i n M a r c h Page 50 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 2014 serious questions about the independence of the IPID report that w a s t h e n i n e x is te n c e b u t – o r t h e in v e s ti g a ti o n r a th e r t h a t w a s t h e n b e i n g c o n d u c te d . Yo u s a y y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e o f a fo r m a l r e p o r t . B u t n o t w i t h s t a n d in g t h e e x i s t e n c e o f a f o r m a l r e p o r t – y o u h a d c o n c e r n s w h ic h y o u h a v e r a is e d n o w w h i c h w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h fr o m t i m e t o ti m e in y o u r e v i d e n c e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A n d t h o s e w e r e s e r io u s c o n c e r n s a b o u t th e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d th e m a n n e r i n w h ic h i t 10 w a s c o n d u c t e d . Yo u th e r e f o r e o r d e r e d a r e v i e w o f t h e in v e s ti g a t io n a n d t h e f in a l is a ti o n o f t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n in r e g a r d to w a r n i n g s ta t e m e n ts a n d in r e g a r d t o c e ll p h o n e r e c o r d a n a ly s is , c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : took account of the fu r t h e r Yo u th e n s i g n e d a r e p o r t t h a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n s d ir e c te d under your c o m m a n d , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h e n y o u s u b m i t t e d th a t . S o it s e e m s t h a t it i s a t l e a s t a r g u a b le th a t w h a t e v e r t h e s t a tu s o f t h e s o 20 c a l l e d fi r s t r e p o r t o r p r o v is i o n a l r e p o r t b y w h o m e v e r it w a s s i g n e d a n d w h a t e v e r i t s p u r p o s e a l l i n c lu d in g A d v o c a t e M o s i n g k n e w th a t t h e r e w a s f u r th e r w o r k to b e d o n e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A b s o l u te ly. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A n d w h a t e v e r o p in io n w a s r e c o r d e d i n t h e v a r i o u s r e p o r ts i t i s s t il l i n c u m b e n t u p o n th e p r o s e c u t o r Page 51 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 t o m a k e h i s o r h e r o w n d e c is io n n o t o n th e b a s is o f I P I D ’s o p i n i o n b u t o n t h e b a s is o f t h e o r i g in a l e v i d e n c e a n d t h e r e p o r t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A b s o l u te ly C h a ir a b s o lu t e ly. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O r in t h e f il e . A n d th a t w a s never interfered with? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : In f a c t t o g o f u r t h e r C h a ir is t h a t t h e – a l l s ta t e m e n t i n c l u d i n g t h e d o d g y s ta t e m e n t s a s I r e fe r t o th e m t h a t c o u l d n o t b e s u b s ta n ti a t e d w e r e i n c l u d e d in a d o c k e t . S o a ll e v i d e n c e in c r i m i n a t o r y a n d a ls o th e e x c u l p a t o r y e v i d e n c e , s o a ll w a s th e r e a n d a 10 p r o s e c u t o r a p p ly i n g t h e ir m i n d c o u l d h a v e c o m e to a d e c is i o n b a s e d o n what was there. And none of that was altered. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w o u l d h a v e b e e n o b li g e d t o c o m e t o a n i n d e p e n d e n t c o n c lu s i o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A b s o l u te ly. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : G i v e n th e r e s p o n s i b il it i e s o f a prosecuting authority? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . CHAIRPERSON : 20 D i d a n y – d i d a n y b o d y e v e r s a y t o y o u in c l u d i n g M r J u l y o r c h a l le n g e o r q u e s ti o n y o u r r i g h t t o a s k M r K h u b a t o d o f u r t h e r in v e s t i g a t io n s w h e n y o u a s k e d h i m a f te r y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t a s E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r ? D i d a n y b o d y e v e r q u e s t io n w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a n y t h in g w r o n g in y o u s a y i n g t o M r K h u b a ‘ ju s t d o f u r t h e r in v e s ti g a t io n s h e r e ’ , a s y o u understood then? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: C h a ir n o b o d y q u e s t io n e d m y r ig h t b u t Page 52 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 n o b o d y i n a l l t h is p r o c e s s r e f l e c te d o n i t . That would be a normal c o m m o n s e n s e th i n g t o d o . CHAIRPERSON : H’m. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : To g e t a n u p d a t e o n w h a t a r e t h e k e y in v e s t i g a t io n s t h is in d e p e n d e n t in v e s ti g a t iv e d ir e c t o r a t e is b u s y w i t h . I t i s – i t w o u l d – i t is l o g i c a l . S o m e w h e r e a l o n g t h e l in e s i n t h e to n e o r w h a t e v e r t h e r e w a s s o m e d is s a ti s f a c t io n a n d a r e a d i n g i n a t le a s t i n t h e ir m i n d s a n d in w h i c h I i n t e r p r e t i t a s t h a t K h u b a w a s c a ll e d to m y o ffic e a l m o s t a s i f i t w a s a s if m e c o m in g in – I s u m m o n s p e o p l e t o my 10 o ffic e a n d i t w a s n o t r i g h t f o r a n u m b e r o f r e a s o n s i n c l u d in g t h e f a c t t h a t M r S e s o k o h a d Mr K h u b a ’s n u m b e r. I d id n o t e v e n h a v e Mr K h u b a ’s p h o n e n u m b e r a n d I s p o k e – I a r r a n g e d f o r M r K h u b a t o c o m e t o t h e o ffi c e v i a M r S e s o k o . S o t h a t is w h a t h a p p e n e d . B u t th e r e w a s t h is n o t i o n o f K h u b a s a y s h e w a s c a ll e d t o t h e o ff ic e b u t t h e t o n e fr o m m e m o r y w a s h e r e w a s t h is n e w g u y j u s t o r d e r i n g p e o p le a b o u t . CHAIRPERSON : H’m. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n i m p o r ta n t i t s e e m s t h a t a t le a s t W e r k s m a n s , M r J u ly t h e y l o o k a t t h a t q u e s t io n w h e t h e r y o u w e r e 20 e n t i tl e d t o a s k M r K h u b a t o d o f u r t h e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s b e c a u s e if o n e a c c e p te d t h a t y o u d id h a v e th a t r i g h t a n d M r K h u b a d i d f u r t h e r in v e s t i g a t io n s w h a t e v e r h e g o t o u t o f t h a t i n v e s ti g a t i o n – f u r t h e r in v e s t i g a t io n w h e th e r i t w a s a g a i n s t G e n e r a l D r a m a t o r i n h is fa v o u r in t e r m s o f p r o s e c u ti o n h a d t o b e t a k e n i n t o a c c o u n t . I n t h is c a s e y o u s a y it h a p p e n e d t o b e in h is f a v o u r a n d i f i t w a s in h is f a v o u r i t h a d t o b e Page 53 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 t a k e n in t o a c c o u n t a s w e l l . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Right. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I i m a g i n e th a t t h e r e is a n a r g u m e n t t o s a y t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t M r K h u b a m a y i n h i s e a r l ie r r e p o r t h a v e r e a c h e d a c o n c l u s i o n t h a t w a s i n c o n s i s t e n t w i t h t h e o u tc o m e o f th e f u r th e r in v e s t i g a t io n . H e m a y w e ll h a v e b e e n e n t i tl e d t o s a y w e l l I c a n n o t m a in t a i n th a t p o s i ti o n i n t h e l ig h t o f w h a t I h a v e f o u n d o u t n o w. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e q u e s t io n i s , i f t h e m i n d s w e r e d ir e c t e d t o th e s e 10 is s u e s m a y b e c e r t a i n c o n c l u s io n s w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n r e a c h e d a n d t h e q u e s t io n is , I th i n k fr o m w h a t y o u s a y is w h y t h e y w e r e – th e y e s c a p e d t h e s e is s u e s a s [ i n d is ti n c t ] p e o p l e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : S o t h a n k s C h a ir. I j u s t w a n t t o – I w a n t t o a d d s o m e th i n g e ls e . T h e r e w a s – a n d I e v e n f e e l u n c o m f o r t a b l e t o s a y i t n o w. T h e r e w a s t h is n o ti o n th a t m y s e l f a n d D r a m a t a r e f r o m t h e s a m e b a c k g r o u n d th e r e fo r e I fe l t a s e n s e i n m e to w a n t t o h e l p h i m w h a t e v e r th e c ir c u m s ta n c e s o r m e r i ts o f t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n . W h e r e t h a t s e n s e o r a ll e g a t io n c a m e f r o m I d o n o t k n o w. W h e n I s a id to th e m I m y s e l f I d o n o t k n o w D r a m a t , D r a m a t w a s o n R o b b e n I s l a n d h e w a s in 20 p r i s o n w i t h m y f a t h e r. I t h e n f o u n d l a te r – r e a d i n a n e w s p a p e r a s li k e in n u e n d o h e r e – i n fa c t M c Br id e ’s f a t h e r a n d D r a m a t w e r e t o g e t h e r o n R o b b e n Is la n d . A n d th a t i s h o w i t w a s s a i d . S o e v e r y ti m e y o u s a i d s o m e t h i n g t o s h o w th a t a c t u a l ly b e a r t h is mi n d w h a t e v e r y o u th in k t h e w a y y o u p u t i t t h a t I a c t u a l ly p e r s o n a lly d o n o t k n o w G e n e r a l D r a m a t. A n d I t h i n k I m a k e t h e p o i n t i n t h e i n t e r v i e w. I m e t h i m w h e n I w a s – Page 54 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 f o r t h e f ir s t ti m e a t I P I D a n d i n e n g a g i n g w i t h h i m a s a – a s a n o ffi c i a l in a n a s s is te d d e p a r t m e n t . T h a t is t h e n t a k e n a n d m i s c o n s tr u e d a n d f e d to jo u r n a li s ts a s i f it is s ti ll a s i n a n d a n o ffe n c e to h a v e b e e n p a r t o f t h e l i b e r a ti o n s tr u g g l e . S o th e r e w a s t h is – I d o n o t k n o w i f i t w a s t h e o n l y w a y t o s a y i t a n d I s a y i t o n d a y s w h e n I a m n o t s o ir r it a t e d a b o u t i t . I s a y i t is l ik e s o m e p e o p l e g o t s tr u g g le e n v y. I c a n n o t h e lp i t if p e o p l e w e r e n o t b o r n a t d i ff e r e n t s ta g e s . I mean I cannot have R i v o n i a e n v y. I w a s n o t b o r n h e r e y e t w h e n fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t M a n d e l a a n d t h e m d e c i d e d to e m b a r k o n t h a t. I – f o r m e I r e v e r e d th e m . T h e y 10 g a v e u s li g h t . B u t f o r m e t o s t a r t h a v in g r e s e n t m e n ts a b o u t th e m w o u ld – i s a f o o l is h n e s s a n d a s e n s e o f in a d e q u a c y th a t I c a n – I c a n n o t understand. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . M r Pr e t o r i u s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : C h a ir i s t h is a c o n v e n i e n t t i m e a n d m a y I a s k t h a t b e c a u s e I n e e d t o tr a v e r s e a p a r tic u la r i s s u e th a t h a s n o w e m e r g e d a s to w h a t A d v o c a te M o s i n g m ig h t h a v e s a id a b o u t t h e e a r l ie r r e p o r t b e i n g a d r a ft r e p o r t. I j u s t n e e d t o c h e c k s o m e t h i n g w i t h th e w it n e s s i f I m a y i n r e l a t io n t o tr a n s c r i p ts a n d t h e b u n d l e . I d o n o t w a n t to s p e n d t o o m u c h t i m e o n th e d e t a il o f th e l a b e l a t t a c h e d . 20 CHAIRPERSON : If you can avoid it. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : To t h e fir s t a n d s e c o n d r e p o r ts . W h a t is c l e a r i s t h a t fu r t h e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n n e e d e d t o b e d o n e a n d i f i t h a d n o t b e e n d o n e t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a s e r i o u s p r o b le m l a id a t M r M c Br i d e ’s d o o r. B u t I d o w a n t t o ju s t p l a c e o n e p i e c e o f e v i d e n c e in t h is r e g a r d b e f o r e y o u a n d t h e n m o v e o n . Page 55 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A r e y o u a s k i n g f o r … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t . CHAIRPERSON : A longer tea break? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S a y t w e n ty m in u t e s C h a ir o r t w e n ty - f iv e m i n u te s ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Tw e n t y m i n u te s . Tw e n t y - f iv e m i n u te s a lt o g e t h e r ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s p l e a s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . T h a t w il l t a k e u s to t w e n ty t o t w e lv e ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l a d j o u r n u n ti l t w e n ty to t w e lv e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : We adjourn. REGISTRAR: All rise. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S CHAIRPERSON : W e h a d t o e x t e n d o u r b r e a k b y a fu r t h e r 1 0 m i n u te s a t t h e r e q u e s t o f M r Pr e t o r i u s s o t h a t h e c o u l d a t t e n d to s o m e t h in g r e l a ti n g t o t h e e v id e n c e . T h a n k y o u . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 20 T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Let us go to p a g e 8 9 4 p le a s e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a n k s C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Of EXHIBIT YB. T h i s is a c o n ti n u a ti o n o f th e tr a n s c r i p t o f y o u r i n t e r v ie w w i t h W e r k s m a n s . At p a g e 8 9 4 l i n e 1 4 y o u s a y w h a t f u r th e r in v e s ti g a ti o n o r w o r k n e e d e d t o b e d o n e . T h a t w a s a n e w a n a ly s is o r a n a n a ly s is o f c e l l p h o n e r e c o r d s . Page 56 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 Wa s i t a n a n a l y s is o f a n e w a n a ly s i s o f c e l lp h o n e r e c o r d s ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I n e s s e n c e t o m a k e t h e d is t in c ti o n it w a s s p e c i fi c a ll y a n a n a l y s i s r e l a t e d t o t o w e r s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : As t o t h e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t a n a n a ly s is h a d t o b e d o n e . I d o n o t w a n t to g o i n t o t o o m u c h d e t a il . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 A n d a d d i ti o n a l s t a te m e n ts a n d w a r n in g s t a te m e n ts y o u s a y ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON : I t h in k t h e e m p h a s is b e h i n d Mr P r e t o r iu s e a r li e r q u e s t io n m a y h a v e b e e n t o s e e k t o e s t a b l is h w h e t h e r w h a t w a s n e w w a s a n a n a ly s is o f i n f o r m a t io n th a t h a d b e e n i n e x is t e n c e a lr e a d y o r w h e t h e r i t w a s n e w in f o r m a ti o n w i th n e w a n a ly s is . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : C h a ir i t w a s – i f I c a n p u t i t th is w a y a s f a r a s I a m a w a r e t h e r e w a s , t h e r e w a s n o t a n y i n fo r m a t i o n r e l a t e d t o c e ll p h o n e a n a l y s i s y e t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : In t h e d o c k e t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: But some cellphone analysis was done b u t it in v o lv e d a s t o w h o c a l le d w h o . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E: B u t t h e i s s u e r e la t in g to t h e t o w e r s . Page 57 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: T h a t is w h e r e th is p h o n e w a s o n a p a r t ic u l a r d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : O r o n a p a r ti c u l a r s e t o f d a t e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E: Had not been done. It now had been obtained and needed to be. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e n o n p a g e 8 9 6 y o u a r e a s k e d - I ju s t w a n t t o c l a r if y t h i s p o i n t. A t o n e s t a g e y o u g a v e th e d o c k e t to t h e M i n i s t e r a n d y o u s a y y e s 1 4 A p r il 2 0 1 4 . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : J a . D u r i n g t h e i n te r v i e w I , I m i g h t h a v e g o t t h e , t h e a c tu a l d a t e w r o n g . W e a r e s t il l a w a i ti n g th e d a te o f c o n fir m a t io n w h e n t h e [i n te r v e n e s ] . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : W e ll y o u s a y 1 4 A p r i l 2 0 1 4 t h e date it was signed. Is that the docket? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u s a y l a te r d o w n t h e p a g e that it was in November 2014 that it was given. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E: T h a t i t w a s g iv e n t o th e M i n is t e r y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th e n o v e r t h e p a g e y o u s a y a t li n e 1 0 th a t is p a g e 8 9 7 o f E X H I B I T Y B t h a t o f c o u r s e l a te r o n i t b e c a m e c l e a r th a t t h e M i n i s te r d is a g r e e d w i t h y o u r r e p o r t a n d t h a t t h e Page 58 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 M i n is t e r s a id a s m u c h in P a r l ia m e n t a n d w e k n o w s a i d a s m u c h t o I P I D it s e l f i n M a r c h 2 0 1 5 . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d it w a s in P a r l ia m e n t t h a t y o u t o l d t h e C h a ir e a r li e r l a s t w e e k t h a t y o u a p p r o a c h e d th e Mi n is t e r a n d s a i d t h a t y o u h a d m a d e a m is t a k e a n d th e r e w a s a w a y t o d e e s c a l a t e t h e is s u e ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: N o t i n P a r li a m e n t . It was at the s t a d i u m o n [ in t e r v e n e s ]. 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr ig h t . A t t h e s ta d iu m i n C a p e To w n . W h a t e v e r M r K h u b a o r M r M o s i n g - A d v o c a t e M o s i n g - mi g h t h a v e s a id t o W e r k s m a n s w e d e a l w i th s e p a r a t e ly. Th e y c a n a c c o u n t f o r what they said, but your evidence is or your interview with Werksmans is s u m m a r is e d a t p a g e 9 0 0 li n e s 3 t o fi v e . W h e r e y o u s a y : “ Al l I k n o w is th r e e is o n e r e p o r t w it h o n e s e t o f d o c k e ts w h i c h I s i g n e d . Th e r e is o n ly o n e r e p o r t I k n o w.” Yo u s e e t h a t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a g e 9 0 0 li n e s 3 t o f iv e . Yo u s e e t h a t. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s , I g o t t h a t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t is W e r k s m a n s . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . Page 59 of 170 what you said to 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th e n a t th e b o t t o m o f t h e page it is put to you: “ W h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g y o u h a d w i t h y o u a t th e ti m e w a s a n in c l u s iv e r e p o r t. Yo u t h e n s a y n o , n o I a m not saying that. M r J u ly p l e a s e l e t u s b e h o n e s t w i t h e a c h o t h e r. I d id n o t s a y t h a t . I s a i d I g o t t h e o n e fi n a l r e p o r t o r I g o t – I s a id I g o t o n e fi n a l report which I signed. 10 I did not say it was an in c l u s i v e r e p o r t. ” C H A I R P E R S O N : In c o n c lu s i v e h e y ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : “I did not say it was in c o n c lu s iv e r e p o r t .” M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E: T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o l e t m e j u s t r e p e a t. I may h a v e g o t i t w r o n g o r n o t b e in g c l e a r. I t i s p u t t o y o u a t th e b o tt o m o f page 900: “ W h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g y o u h a d w i t h y o u a t th e ti m e 20 w a s a n in c o n c lu s i v e r e p o r t a n d y o u s a y n o , n o I a m n o t s a y in g t h a t. Yo u h a v e g o t o n e f in a l r e p o r t w h ic h y o u s ig n e d . I did not say it was an in c o n c lu s iv e r e p o r t .” T h e r e s e e m s t o b e a p o s s i b i li ty o f c o n fu s i o n t h e r e a b o u t f i n a l o r in c o n c lu s iv e r e p o r t s i n b e tw e e n t h e f ir s t a n d t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t . Page 60 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I am not sure why M r J u ly was c o n fu s e d a t th a t s t a g e a n d w h y h e p u t i t t o m e th a t I s p o k e a b o u t a n in c o n c lu s iv e r e p o r t t h a t I h a d s i g n e d . I t is a – i t d o e s n o t fi t i n t h e c o n te x t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 9 0 4 p le a s e . A n d t h e n if w e c a n g o to p a g e O n s e v e r a l o c c a s io n s d u r in g th is i n t e r v i e w y o u m a k e it c le a r t h a t y o u w e r e a w a r e a t t h e ti m e o f a s i n g l e r e p o r t w h i c h w a s i n y o u r v ie w t h e f in a l r e p o r t w h ic h y o u s ig n e d w h i c h c o n t a i n e d t h e a d d it i o n a l i n v e s ti g a t iv e r e s u l ts w h i c h y o u h a d d ir e c t e d . 10 That you r e p e a t s e v e r a l ti m e s b u t o n p a g e 9 0 4 li n e 1 0 y o u s a y i n r e la t io n to a q u e s t io n fr o m M r J u ly w h ic h r e a d s a s f o l lo w s a t li n e 4 o n p a g e 9 0 4 : “ I n t h e s a m e b r e a t h th e n w e c a n n o t a s k y o u a b o u t t h e i n c o n s is t e n c i e s t h a t e x is t b e tw e e n t h e t w o b e c a u s e y o u d o n o t k n o w a n y th i n g a b o u t t h a t .” MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: C h a ir i f I c a n j u s t c o m e i n h e r e . T h a t is v e r y c r i ti c a l a b o u t t h e c o n fu s i o n o f ti m e a n d it s p a s s a g e b e c a u s e w h a t I h a d i n d i c a t e d e a r li e r is th a t in M a r c h o n a r r iv a l i n I P I D I d i d n o t k n o w a b o u t t h e r e p o r t . A y e a r la t e r M r J u l y s u g g e s t s t o m e w e l l t h e n a y e a r la t e r a f t e r e v e r y t h i n g a n d a f t e r s i g n i n g t h e fi n a l r e p o r t y o u c a n n o t 20 s p e a k a b o u t i n c o n s is t e n c i e s b e tw e e n t h e t w o r e p o r ts . W h e r e a s a y e a r la t e r I w o u l d h a v e s e e n a l l r e le v a n t r e p o r t s r e l a ti n g to t h e s u b j e c t b u t I t h i n k h is , h i s q u e s t io n t h e r e is - b a s ic a lly e x p r e s s e s h is c o n f u s io n w it h t h e p a s s a g e o f ti m e w h ic h I m a d e a p o in t o n , o n I t h in k Fr id a y t o t h a t o n e m u s t b e c o n s c i e n c e o f t h e p a s s a g e o f ti m e a n d d i ff e r e n t t h i n g s h a p p e n a t d i ffe r e n t s ta g e s . Page 61 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e ll a s a t t h e t i m e o f th e in t e r v ie w 1 7 A p r il 2 0 1 5 . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u d o s a y a t l in e 1 0 o n p a g e 904: “ I d o n o t e v e n th i n k th e r e a r e i n c o n s is te n c i e s . T h e r e is a d d i ti o n a l e v i d e n c e . O n e r e p o r t is lo n g e r than the o t h e r. One report in f o r m a ti o n to t h e o t h e r o n e . 10 has a d d it i o n a l One report has an a n a ly s is o f c e l lp h o n e r e c o r d s a n d i t h a s w a r n i n g s t a te m e n ts w h ic h is a n o r m a l t h i n g . S o I w o u ld n o t s a y i n c o n s is t e n c i e s . I w o u ld m a y b e s a y a c h a n g e o f a n a ly s is . I k n o w i n o n e c a s e t h e y h a d t o s e n d a s t a te m e n t t o b e a n a l y s e d t o s a y w h e t h e r t h e g u y w a s tr u th f u l o r n o t b e c a u s e o f e v i d e n c e w h ic h c a m e o u t fr o m a c e l lp h o n e .” And it goes on. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A t t h e b o t t o m o f th e p a g e 9 0 4 : 20 “ T h e n t h e y h a d t o lo o k a t o t h e r p e o p l e ’s s t a t e m e n ts a g a in a n d a n a ly s e .” I t s h o u ld r e a d t h e n . I t is c o r r e c t th a t a s i d e fr o m t h e a d d it i o n s o r f u r th e r e v i d e n c e th e f i n a l r e p o r t w h ic h y o u s i g n e d d i ffe r e d f r o m t h e fi r s t r e p o r t i n t h a t w it n e s s s t a t e m e n ts w e r e q u o te d in t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t a n d t h o s e q u o t a ti o n d i ff e r fr o m t h e q u o t e s in t h e f ir s t r e p o r t . A m I c o r r e c t ? Page 62 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th o s e a r e f u l ly a n a ly s e d i n t h e Werksmans Report in a spreadsheet. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u a r e a w a r e o f t h a t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : The statements themselves you h a v e r e p e a t e d ly s a id r e m a in e d i n t h e i r o r ig in a l f o r m ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t w a s a n a n a ly s i s o f t h e s t a te m e n ts c o n t a i n e d i n r e p o r t s ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ex a c t ly a n d p a r tic u la r ly w h a t w a s t h e e v i d e n t i a r y v a lu e a g a in s t t h e b a c k g r o u n d o f th e n e w e v i d e n c e . S o w h a t h a d b e e n s a i d i n i t ia ll y c o u ld – n o r e l ia n c e c o u l d b e p l a c e d u p o n i t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o w e r e c e r ta i n q u o t a ti o n s i n t h e fi r s t r e p o r t o m i t t e d fr o m t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t w a s th e r e a s o n f o r th a t ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: 20 A c c o r d i n g to K h u b a t h e y w e r e o f n o evidentiary value. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t a n d w e w i ll s e e w h a t Khuba says about that. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s a n d e v e n n o w i f y o u r e a d w h a t w a s removed it is of no evidentiary value in terms of the. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C a n y o u g iv e o n e e x a m p l e t o Page 63 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 ill u s tr a t e th e p o i n t? I a m n o t g o in g t o g o in t o a fu ll a n a ly s is o f a ll t h e tr a n s c r ip t s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : I t h in k i n o n e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Because we made the general points about the report. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: J a , in o n e s t a t e m e n t s o m e o n e r e p o r ts a b o u t s o m e o n e g o i n g t o a li q u o r s t o r e t o b u y s o m e l iq u o r. s c h e m e o f t h i n g s it is k i n d o f ir r e le v a n t . In t h e S o K h u b a le a v e it o u t a n d a d d s m o r e r e le v a n t s tu ff . S o i n t e r m s o f ju s t s t a t i n g fr o m t h e o r ig in a l 10 s t a te m e n ts t a k in g l a r g e , la r g e c h u n k s o f q u o ta t io n s . In t h e s e c o n d s t a te m e n t h e is m o r e p a r tic u la r a b o u t w h a t t h e v a l u e is a n d s t u ff t h a t s o r t o f a d d s u p th e r e p o r t w i t h n o e v i d e n t i a r y v a lu e s r e m o v e d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e c a n p u t a w a y t h a t b u n d l e fo r t h e m o m e n t th e n . CHAIRPERSON : B e f o r e y o u d o t h a t c a n I j u s t e s ta b l is h w a s i t e v e r e s t a b li s h e d w h o h a d m a d e th e a l t e r a t io n s o n t h a t fi r s t r e p o r t ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I. CHAIRPERSON : Or you do not know? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : N o , i t is e s t a b lis h e d . 20 CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Mr Khuba said he had made the necessary changes. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR ROBER T JOHN MCBRIDE: Based on the new evidence. So it was n e v e r i n d o u b t th a t M r K h u b a s a i d h e h a d w o r k e d w i t h Mr S e s o k o . Page 64 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : O n Mr S e s o k o ’s . CHAIRPERSON : Not Mr Sesoko. Mr Sesoko? I thought he had been g iv e n i n s tr u c t io n s n o t t o . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : O h , i n t h e fir s t. C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e f ir s t o n e . I a m t a l k in g a b o u t t h e f ir s t o n e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : [ In t e r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e t h a t w a s s a i d to h a v e b e e n a l t e r e d . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: 10 I a m n o t a w a r e o f t h a t. T h a t th e fir s t one. CHAIRPERSON : O k a y. Let me repeat. Maybe I have confused you. Yo u k n o w w h e n w e t a l k a b o u t a l te r a t io n s t o a r e p o r t , t o th e r e p o r t h e r e . A s I u n d e r s ta n d i t t h a t is a r e f e r e n c e t o w h a t w e h a v e r e f e r r e d t o a s t h e fir s t r e p o r t o r p r e li m i n a r y r e p o r t . N o w t h a t is t h e r e p o r t t h a t h a d b e e n done by Mr Khuba? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e y o u w e r e a p p o i n t e d E x e c u tiv e D ir e c t o r. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : So I seem to get at som e stage w hen I read some of 20 t h e d o c u m e n t s th a t i t s e e m e d t o b e u n c l e a r a s t o w h o m a y h a v e e ffe c t e d c e r ta in a l t e r a t i o n s o n t h a t fir s t r e p o r t . So my question was w h e t h e r a s f a r a s y o u k n o w i t w a s e v e r e s t a b l is h e d a s t o w h o h a d e ffe c t e d th o s e a l t e r a t io n s . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I th i n k i t i s c o m m o n c a u s e b e t w e e n M r K h u b a a n d Mr M o s i n g . Page 65 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t t h e y w o u ld s e n d t h e r e p o r ts . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: O f th o s e p r e li m i n a r y r e p o r ts t o e a c h o th e r a n d o n o c c a s io n A d v o c a te M o s i n g w o u ld s e n d i t b a c k t o K h u b a a g a in . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: W i th s o m e a l te r a t io n s o n w h a te v e r t h e is s u e w a s a t t h a t s t a g e . 10 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: B u t i t i s n o t i n d is p u t e t h a t t h a t w a s t a k i n g p la c e a n d t h a t t h e r e w a s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , I a c c e p t – I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t b e c a u s e y o u d id s a y t h a t I t h in k l a s t w e e k i n s o f a r a s o n e t a l k s a t a g e n e r a l l e v e l. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : I a m ju s t t a l k i n g a b o u t th e s p e c i f ic a l te r a t io n s t h a t W e r k s m a n s a n d t h e M i n is t e r w e r e ta lk i n g a b o u t w h ic h w e r e fr o m t h e b a s is o f y o u b e in g c h a r g e d t o s a y c e r t a i n a l t e r a t i o n s w e r e m a d e . Th e y w e r e m a d e w i t h a c e r t a i n m o ti v e o r i n t e n t io n w h a t e v e r. 20 So those s p e c i f ic a l t e r a ti o n s t h o s e a r e t h e o n e s I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t w h e th e r i t w a s e s t a b l is h e d w h e t h e r M r K h u b a h a d m a d e t h e m o r M r M o s in g o r w a s it n e v e r – w a s it in d is p u t e a s t o w h o h a d e ffe c t e d th e m a s f a r a s y o u know? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: T h a n k s C h a ir. If I am understanding y o u c o r r e c t ly i t w o u l d b e - a n d to r e s p o n d – i t w o u l d b e t h e r e p o r t t h a t Page 66 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 w a s d o n e d u r i n g , a f te r t h e r e v i e w a n d t h e a d d it i o n o f t h e n e w e v i d e n c e is t h e , th e s e c o n d r e p o r t w h ic h M r K h u b a t h e n c h a n g e d th e a n a ly s is – t h e e m p h a s is o f a n a ly s is o n th e r e p o r t u n d e r th e s u p e r v is io n o f M r S e s o k o a n d t h e y h a d w o r k e d o n M r S e s o k o ’s c o m p u t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o , b u t t h e a c tu a l a lt e r a ti o n w a s s a i d t o b e o n w h ic h r e p o r t ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: 10 W e ll in essence the fir s t report, p r e l i mi n a r y r e p o r t w a s c h a n g e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: By Mr Khuba. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : To a c c o m p a n y t h e d o c k e t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o i t w a s th e fir s t r e p o r t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t w a s - th a t w a s c h a n g e d , y e s . CHAIRPERSON : 20 J a , b u t i t w a s c h a n g e d a f t e r th e r e w a s th e fi n a l report? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h e f in a l r e p o r t e ffe c t iv e l y c h a n g e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That preliminary report. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n t h a t r e g a r d p e r h a p s w e c o u l d Page 67 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 go to page 1237 of EXHIBIT YC. This is a statement by Khuba on a ffi d a v i t i n t h e li ti g a ti o n t o w h ic h y o u h a v e r e fe r r e d . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : I h a v e i t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 2 1 r e a d s : “ Af t e r S e s o k o a n d I w e r e ta s k e d b y Mc B r i d e w i t h fi n a l is i n g t h e r e p o r t. I w o u l d v is i t t h e Pr e to r i a O ff ic e fr o m L i m p o p o w h e n e v e r I c o u l d . I w o u l d s it a t S e s o k o ’s c o m p u te r to m a k e c h a n g e s to t h e d r a f t a s w e d is c u s s e d t h e m . S e s o k o a n d I , w e e v a l u a t e d 10 a l l t h e e v i d e n c e a n d d e b a t e d w h a t fi n d i n g s c o u l d r e l i a b ly a n d s u s t a i n a b ly b e m a d e o n t h e e v i d e n c e . I w o u ld t h e n e ff e c t th e c h a n g e s t o t h e r e p o r t o n S e s o k o ’s c o m p u te r.” Paragraph 22: “ Se s o k o ’s i n p u t w a s i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e h e h a s a p r o s e c u t o r ia l background. So has a good u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t fi n d i n g s a p r o s e c u t o r w o u ld accept as sustainable. 20 H e a ls o b r o u g h t a m o r e o b j e c ti v e p e r s p e c t iv e t o b e a r on because involved he had not been th e e v i d e n c e in th e in v e s t i g a t io n .” And the next paragraph reads: “ I n fi n a li s i n g th e r e p o r t a n d p r e s e n ti n g t h e f in a l r e p o r t t o M c B r i d e f o r a u t h o r is a ti o n w e t h o u g h t t o c o n d u c t a th o r o u g h c r i tic a l a n d o b j e c t iv e r e v ie w o f Page 68 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 t h e t o t a li t y o f t h e e v i d e n c e a n d t o p r e s e n t o n ly r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t w e r e s u p p o r t e d b y c r e d i b l e evidence.” A n d th e n h e g o e s o n t o c o n t e s t t h e v i e w s o f t h e M i n is t e r w h o c r i t ic i s e s t h e a c t s o f I P I D i n r e g a r d to t h e a m e n d m e n t s . I f t h e y c o u l d b e c a l le d a m e n d m e n ts to th e fir s t report. Is that c o n s is te n t w i th your u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e [ in t e r v e n e s ]? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u w o u l d b e a r w i t h m e C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e fir s t o r t h e c o v e r p a g e o f t h a t a ffi d a v i t j u s t f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s is in B u n d l e Y C – E X H I B I T Y C a t page 1225. J u s t g o t o 11 4 5 . A l s o in B u n d l e Y C a t p a g e 11 4 5 is K h u b a ’s s t a te m e n t d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f t h e W e r k s m a n s in t e r v ie w th a t h e h e l d w h e r e h e s a i d a t li n e 1 5 : “ T h e is s u e th e r e w a s n o t e v e n a s i n g l e ti m e w h e r e M c Br i d e s a id t o m e c h a n g e t h e r e p o r t to s u it D r a m a t. H e m i g h t h a v e m a d e i n p u t . H e m ig h t h a v e q u e r ie d h o w th in g s w e r e d o n e . 20 S o m e t i m e s th e is s u e m o s t e s p e c i a ll y t h e i s s u e o f h a v in g a C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e m e m b e r h e h a d a c o n c e r n a b o u t i t t o s a y a r e y o u p e o p l e n o t i n d e p e n d e n t. ” I t s e e m s t h a t w h a t M r K h u b a is s a y i n g t h e r e is t h a t y o u to o k K h u b a t o t a s k i n r e l a t i o n to t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f t h e in v e s ti g a t io n a n d h e is a ls o s a y in g t h a t y o u n e v e r to l d h i m t o c h a n g e t h e r e p o r t t o s u i t D r a m a t. Page 69 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e n in p a r a g r a p h 4 3 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t i f w e c a n g o b a c k t o p a g e 9 a t l a s t y o u s a y : “ A c r i t iq u e o f t h e W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t w a s fi le d w i t h my papers wh en I c h a ll e n g e d my unlawful s u s p e n s i o n i n t h e H ig h C o u r t .” M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : O n e s e c o n d C h a ir. 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 4 3 p a g e 9 B u n d l e A . C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u g o i n g b a c k t o t h e s ta t e m e n t? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u n d l e YA p a g e 9 . CHAIRPERSON : D o e s th a t m e a n y o u a r e d o n e w i t h t h e W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t o r y o u w i ll c o m e b a c k to i t? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l t h a t d e p e n d s o n t h e a n s w e r t o t h e n e x t q u e s t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. N o th a t i s f in e . T h e n I w il l w a i t . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t w e m a y h a v e to g o t o . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B e g i n n i n g p a g e 1 0 1 7 w h i c h is s t il l i n B u n d l e C . S o p e r h a p s i f y o u c o u l d k e e p i t a t h a n d C h a ir. T h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u p r e p a r e d fo r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h e H ig h C o u r t a p p lic a ti o n w h i c h l a t e r w a s d e a l t w i th b y th e C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t is Page 70 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A n n e x u r e G i n B u n d l e Y C a n d I a m r e f e r r in g to n o t y o u r f o u n d i n g a ffi d a v i t f o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s , b u t I a m r e f e r r i n g t o y o u r r e p ly i n g a ffi d a v i t b e c a u s e i n th e a n s w e r i n g a ffi d a v i t t h e M in is t e r r e l i e d t o a la r g e e x t e n t o n th e W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t . S o if y o u c o u l d g o t o p a g e 1007 of Bundle YC please. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : I h a v e i t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : P le a s e r e p e a t t h e p a g e n u m b e r Mr P r e t o r iu s o n EXHIBIT YC. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a g e 1 0 0 7 . 10 CHAIRPERSON : 1007, thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D o y o u h a v e th a t a ff id a v i t b e fo r e you? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s s ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : To p l a c e t h is r e p l y i n g a ff i d a v i t i n it s p r o p e r c o n t e x t i t a p p e a r s th a t in t h e a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a v i ts i n th e m a t t e r b e f o r e th e H ig h C o u r t w h e r e y o u c h a l le n g e d y o u r s u s p e n s io n t h e M i n is t e r h a d r e l i e d to s o m e e x t e n t o n t h e c o n t e n t s a n d f in d in g s o f th e Werksmans Report. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d i n r e p ly th e n y o u d e a l t w it h the Werksmans Report? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Now we have dealt at some le n g t h w i th is s u e s r e l a te d t o t h e W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t a n d y o u r c r i t iq u e a t a h i g h le v e l a n d a t a d e t a il e d l e v e l w i t h t h e c o n te n ts o f th a t r e p o r t . Page 71 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 P e r h a p s i t m a y b e n e c e s s a r y a t s o m e s t a g e to d o a t h o r o u g h a n a l y s i s o f t h e r e c o r d , b e c a u s e th e r e c o r d is t h e r e a s i t s t a n d s . W e h a v e b e e n p r o v i d e d b y W e r k s m a n s w i t h a l l t h e tr a n s c r ip t s o f e v i d e n c e s a v e o f o n e p e r s o n w h o is A d v o c a t e M o s i n g . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: N o t h a t is n o t c o r r e c t C h a ir. I t is M r S e s o k o ’s e n t ir e i n te r v i e w a n d tr a n s c r ip t h a s a l w a y s b e e n a b s e n t fr o m t h e W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t , s o r r y. I g o t t h a t w r o n g . I t i s Mr S e s o k o ’s tr a n s c r i p t t h a t i s n o t c o n t a i n e d b u t o t h e r t h a n th a t w e 10 h a v e b e e n p r o v i d e d w i t h t h e te r m s o f r e fe r e n c e , t h e r e p o r t a n d th e tr a n s c r ip t s o f e v i d e n c e o f a ll w h o p a r t ic i p a t e d in in t e r v ie w s s a v e fo r Mr Sesoko? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ja. I n f a c t w i t h th e - d u r in g t h e li ti g a t i o n p e r i o d w e r e li e d o n M r S e s o k o ’s o w n r e c o r d i n g h e m a d e w h ic h it w a s tr a n s c r i b e d a n d a u t h e n t ic a te d a n d w e m a d e u s e , u s e o f t h a t b u t W e r k s m a n s d o e s n o t r e f e r to it a t a ll . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : A n d th e y d o n o t s u p p l y it e v e n t h o u g h M r S e s o k o w a s in t e r v ie w e d b y t h e m . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A s a m a t t e r o f i n te r e s t d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e i s a r e a s o n w h y a tr a n s c r i p t f o r i n t e r v ie w s w i t h o th e r p e o p l e a r e a v a il a b l e b u t th e o n e w it h h i m i s n o t a v a i la b le o r is t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s n o t canvassed - they were not asked? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I do not remember it in detail now C h a ir, b u t M r S e s o k o is , M r S e s o k o is v e r y l e g a lly m in d e d a n d v e r y Page 72 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 d ir e c t . S o h e w o u ld h a v e p u t l e g a l s t a t u s o f e v e r y t h i n g i m m e d ia t e l y o n t h e t a b l e a n d f r o m m e m o r y h e i n d ic a t e d t o m e a n d I m i g h t h a v e s e e n i t in a tr a n s c r i p t – h e i n q u i r e d t o M r J u ly a s t o w h e th e r h e w a s a s u s p e c t in a n y th in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : A n d M r J u l y r e p l ie d i n th e n e g a tiv e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: W h ic h w o u l d r e f le c t v e r y p o o r ly o n M r J u ly. 10 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: On the fact th a t Mr J u ly makes r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : S u b s e q u e n tl y a t t h e e n d o f h i s r e p o r t t o in d i c a t e th a t S e s o k o s h o u l d b e a m o n g s t t h o s e c h a r g e d a n d d is c i p l in e d . I’ m n o t s u r e w h a t t h e e th ic a l a s p e c ts o f t h a t is , b u t S e s o k o r e p o r t e d t h a t to m e . CHAIRPERSON: B u t y o u a ls o r e fe r r e d t o t h e u s e o f s o m e r e c o r d in g t h a t Mr S e s o k o h i m s e l f h a d m a d e , w a s t h a t a m e c h a n ic a l r e c o r d i n g o r 20 ju s t n o t e s t h a t h e t o o k , d o y o u k n o w, d o y o u r e m e m b e r ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : Ye s I d o r e m e m b e r C h a ir, i t w a s a e l e c tr o n ic r e c o r d i n g , e i th e r o n h i s p h o n e o r o n a d ic t a p h o n e o r something. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , b u t y o u s a y t h a t w a s tr a n s c r i b e d . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s s ir i t w a s . Page 73 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, a lr ig h t , t h a n k y o u . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : To g e t b a c k to y o u r r e p ly in g a ffi d a v i t a n d y o u r c r i ti q u e o f t h e W e r k s m a n s ’ r e p o r t , w e h a v e d e a l t w it h a n u m b e r o f is s u e s b o th i n d e ta il a s r e g a r d s t o t h e p a r tic u la r s u b m is s io n s o r c o n te n ts o f th e i n t e r v i e w s a s w e l l a s y o u r h i g h l e v e l c r i ti q u e o f t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e w a s a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n b y W e r k s m a n s a t a ll u n d e r t h e d ir e c ti o n o f t h e M i n is t e r. Yo u r c r i ti q u e is r e c o r d e d a t p a g e 1 0 1 7 a n d fo ll o w i n g o f th e r e p ly i n g a ffi d a v i t , i t ’s a m a tt e r o f r e c o r d . Is t h e r e a n y th in g y o u w is h t o a d d to t h a t ? 10 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: C h a i r I t h i n k i t ’s s u ffi c i e n t a s i t is c a p tu r e d in t h e a ffi d a v i t I ’ m s u r e t h a t M r K h u b a a n d M r S e s o k o w il l g i v e f u r th e r d e t a i ls w h ic h w il l h e ld t h e C o m m is s io n c o m e to it s c o n c l u s io n s . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t to p u t i t a t i ts h i g h e s t y o u w e r e c r i t ic a l o f t h e c o n t e n t o f t h e r e p o r t, t h e a n a ly s is o f th e e v i d e n c e a n d th e o u t c o m e o f th e r e p o r t , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir I d o n ’ t k n o w i f y o u r e q u ir e u s t o g o in t o f u r th e r d e t a i l o n th a t , it m a y b e c o m e r e le v a n t l a t e r a s 20 m a t t e r s p r o g r e s s b u t t h e n w e c a n a d d r e s s it t h e n b u t to g o i n to i t p a g e b y p a g e a n a ly s is o f a ll th e e v i d e n c e , a ll t h e d e t a i l , I t h in k w i ll n o t b e p r o d u c t iv e a t th is s t a g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o th a t’ s f i n e . Mr M c Br i d e d u r i n g y o u r i n t e r v i e w with Mr July in whatever way or terms you may have put it, did you ever s a y o r a s k h i m s o m e th i n g a lo n g th e li n e s , w h a t ’s t h e w h o l e p o in t a b o u t Page 74 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 t h is a l t e r a ti o n o f t h e r e p o r t w h e n t h e r e is n e w e v i d e n c e , w h a t’s t h e w h o le p o i n t , y o u k n o w, if i t’s a l te r e d b e c a u s e th e r e ’s n e w e v i d e n c e w h a t ’s w r o n g w i th t h a t ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : I th in k C h a ir j u s t to r e s p o n d d ir e c tl y a n d f r o m w h a t I c a n r e c a ll , m y la s t – a m o n g s t m y l a s t s ta t e m e n ts o f th e in t e r v ie w I i n d ic a te d t o h i m , i n a n a t t e m p t t o a n s w e r y o u r q u e s t i o n , t h a t I s t a n d b y t h e r e p o r t t h a t I s i g n e d a n d I a ls o m a d e th e p o i n t t h a t n o c o u r t i n S o u t h A f r ic a w il l , b a s e d o n t h e e v i d e n c e , th a t I ’ m a w a r e o f , w i ll e v e r b e a b l e t o c o n v ic t G e n e r a l S i b i y a o r D r a m a t a n d I e x p r e s s e d i t a s 10 a c o n fi d e n c e w e h a d in t h e a n a ly s is a n d t h e e x c u lp a t o r y e v i d e n c e w h ic h , i n A p r il 2 0 1 5 , I w a s n o w a w a r e o f f u ll y a n d I e x p r e s s e d t h a t t o h i m b u t i t d i d n o t r e s o n a t e a t a ll . W i t h th e te a m t h a t w a s s it t in g t h e r e t h e m o m e n t I s a i d I s t a n d b y my r e p o r t t h a t I s i g n e d e v e r y b o d y s t a r t e d f e v e r i s h ly w r it i n g , t a k in g n o te s , t h e y e x c h a n g e d g la n c e s a n d s t a r te d w r i t in g , a s i f s o m e h o w I a d m i tt e d s h o c k a n d h o r r o r s o m e u n s p e a k a b l e deed. For me that was an in d i c a t i o n of some k in d of prior m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g b e c a u s e f o r t h e f ir s t t i m e t h e y e x c h a n g e d g l a n c e s w i t h e a c h o t h e r, w h e n I s a i d I s ta n d b y t h e r e p o r t t h a t I s i g n e d a n d I d o n ’t k n o w w h a t – t h e y c a n e x p la i n fo r t h e m s e l v e s b u t t h a t’s w h a t I 20 p ic k e d u p a n d I e x p r e s s t h r o u g h o u t t h e in t e r v ie w, s u b s e q u e n t ly i n t e s ti m o n y h e r e a ls o t h a t i t w a s j u s t c r a z y fr o m t h e b e g i n n i n g t h e f u s s that was made about it. S o I h a v e e x p r e s s e d i t s p e c i fi c a lly w i t h Mr J u l y, I ’ m n o t s u r e i f I s p e c i fi c a ll y s a i d i t b u t I h a d in d ic a t e d i t y e s . CHAIRPERSON : D i d M r J u ly o r a n y b o d y w h o m a y h a v e fo r m e d p a r t o f h is t e a m w h e r e d u r i n g h is – y o u r i n te r v i e w w it h h i m , d id t h e y – d i d Page 75 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 a n y b o d y e v e r s a y, b u t th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s y o u p e o p l e m a d e i n t h e fi n a l r e p o r t a r e n o t ju s t i fi e d b y t h e e v id e n c e t h a t y o u a r e r e ly i n g o n o r a n y th in g t o t h a t e ffe c t o r d i d t h e y e x p r e s s c r i tic is m o f th e f i n a l r e p o r t b a s e d o n e v id e n c e t h a t w a s a v a i la b le ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : in c l u d i n g in th e w r i tt e n C h a ir n o , a t n o s t a g e – a t a ll s ta g e s report was just a fact that a report r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a n d o p i n i o n h a d b e e n c h a n g e d . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : N o c r i ti c is m o f th e f in a l r e p o r t , in fa c t, 10 in c r e a s i n g ly – w e ll i t ’s n o w c o m m o n k n o w l e d g e t h a t a l l c h a r g e s a g a i n s t G e n e r a l S i b i y a a n d G e n e r a l D r a m a t w e r e w i t h d r a w n o n th is m a t t e r. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : S o e v e n t h e N PA w h o d e c i d e d to p r o s e c u t e u s f o r t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w e m a d e i n th e fi n a l r e p o r t, n o w h a s w i th d r a w n c h a r g e s a g a i n s t G e n e r a l S i b iy a a n d G e n e r a l D r a m a t . CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I f, ju s t f o r t h e s a k e o f c o m p le t e n e s s w e c o u l d t h e n g o t o B u n d l e Y D – y e s Y D a t p a g e 1 4 4 3 and subject to any need that might arise for a more in -depth and 20 c o m p le t e a n a ly s is w e c a n e n d h e r e t o r e p e a t t h e fi n d i n g a n d c o m m e n t o n i t p a r a 6 4 5 o f th e W e r k s m a n s r e p o r t . CHAIRPERSON : Did you say the pages 1443? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s o f E x h i b i t Y D . CHAIRPERSON : Thank you, you may proceed. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Page 76 of 170 P a r a g r a p h 6 .4 . 5 is t h e 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t c o n c e r n s y o u r s e l f i t r e a d s , “ In t h e a b s e n c e o f a n y in f o r m a ti o n a s to w h i c h o f t h e t h r e e c o - s i g n a t o r ie s w e r e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e d e l e ti o n o f i n f o r m a ti o n fr o m t h e fi r s t r e p o r t w e r e c o m m e n d t h a t K h u b a , M c Br i d e a n d S e s o k o b e c h a r g e d c r i m i n a lly f o r d e f e a t i n g t h e e n d s o f j u s t ic e o r o b s tr u c t in g t h e a d m in is tr a t i o n o f j u s ti c e a n d t h a t d is c i p l i n a r y c h a r g e s b e b r o u g h t a g a i n s t t h e m i n th e ir c a p a c i ty a s e m p l o y e e s ” . J u s t a n u m b e r o f r e m a r k s a r is i n g f r o m y o u r e v i d e n c e a n d t h e n w e ’ ll c o n c lu d e t h i s p a r t o f t h e e v i d e n c e Mr M c Br i d e , i t s e e m s th a t w h a t W e r k s m a n s c o n c e n tr a t e d o n w a s t h e d e l e t i o n o f p o r t io n s o f t h e 10 s t a te m e n ts q u o t e d in th e r e p o r ts . S o n o t t h e d e l e t i o n o f t h e o r i g in a l o r a n y a lt e r a ti o n o f th e o r i g i n a l s t a te m e n ts w h ic h r e m a i n e d i n ta c t b u t t h o s e p a s s a g e s t h a t w e r e q u o te d i n th e f ir s t r e p o r t a n d t h e s e c o n d report. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u ’v e e x p l a in e d t o th e C h a ir t h a t a n a n a ly s is w a s d o n e , a n d w e ’v e r e f e r r e d t o Mr K h u b a ’s e v i d e n c e in t h a t r e g a r d w it h t h e a s s is t a n c e o f M r S e s o k o , b e c a u s e w e n o w k n o w t h a t M r S e s o k o w a s a s s is ti n g f o r t h e f ir s t t i m e , h e h a d b e e n e x c lu d e d i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e fi r s t r e p o r t . 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : C h a ir I d o n ’ t m e a n t o b e fl i p p a n t b u t I t h i n k I n e e d t o m a k e a p o in t th a t e v e n i f t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t w a s c o m p le t e l y t a k e n a n d t o r n u p a n d t h r o w n i n to a b i n a n d o n ly t h e d o c k e t s u b m i tt e d w i t h a ll t h e e v i d e n c e t h e r e w o u ld b e n o t h i n g u n la w f u l a b o u t t h a t . S o e v e n i f w e r e m o v e d th e e n t ir e r e p o r t , d id n o t a d d a r e p o r t a n d w e t h r e w i t in t h e b i n a n d o n ly s e n t t h e d o c k e t w i th a ll t h e e v i d e n c e , Page 77 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 t h e r e w o u l d b e n o t h i n g u n l a w fu l o r u n t o w a r d . S A P S d e te c tiv e s d o t h a t e v e r y d a y w h e n t h e y s u b m i t t h e ir d o c k e t s t o t h e N PA t h e y d o n ’t a tt a c h o p i n i o n r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : T h e r e a r e n o f i n d in g s h e r e i t s e e m s , in r e l a ti o n to t h e n e c e s s it y f o r th e a d d i t io n a l i n v e s t i g a t iv e r e s u l t s c o n ta in e d i n t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t i t s i m p l y s e e m s t o c o n c e n tr a t e o n t h e d e l e ti o n o f i n f o r m a ti o n i n t h e r e p o r t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s t h a t’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 W h a t i f i t i s p u t t o y o u th a t t h e d e l e t i o n o f th e i n fo r m a ti o n w a s d e l ib e r a t e ly c a l c u l a te d t o mi s l e a d th e r e c ip i e n t o f t h e r e p o r t o r t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A l l t h e e v i d e n c e is in th e d o c k e t , n o n e o f t h e q u o t e d s t a t e m e n t s i n th e r e p o r t w e r e d e s i g n e d to m i s l e a d o r t o m is d i r e c t a n y o n e . T h e k e y e l e m e n t a n d d i ff e r e n c e o f th e t w o t h e r e p o r t s a s I i n d i c a t e d e a r li e r, w a s th e c o n d it i o n s i n w h ic h t h e y w e r e d o n e . I t w o u l d b e t h u m b - s u c k t o s a y – a n d t h e r e w o u l d b e n o b a s is o n w h ic h t o s a y t h e r e m o v a l o f q u o t a t io n s i n a r e p o r t fr o m a s t a te m e n t t h e r e w a s a n y th in g u n t o w a r d a b o u t i t o r i m p r o p e r i t ’s j u s t w h o e v e r in v e n te d t h a t , c l e a r ly d id n ’t u n d e r s ta n d p r o c e s s e s t h a t a r e i n v o lv e d i n 20 t h e s i t u a ti o n a n d i t a p p e a r s t h a t, th a t mi s u n d e r s t a n d i n g , w i l fu l o r in a d v e r te n t p e r m e a te s t h e e n t ir e p r o c e s s d o w n s t r e a m t h a t e v e n t u a ll y le d to u s g e t ti n g s u s p e n d e d a n d c r i m i n a l ly c h a r g e d a n d i t j u s t s e e ms t o h a v e i ts o w n i n fe c ti o u s n a t u r e a b o u t th a t m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g , it a p p e a r s to be contagious. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t s e e m s th e n , i n s u m m a r y w h a t Page 78 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 y o u a r e s a y i n g i s th a t t o a c c o r d t h e s o - c a l le d f ir s t r e p o r t w i t h a q u a li ty t h a t it c a n n e v e r b e c h a n g e d o r c o m m e n t e d o n o r s u b j e c t e d t o a f u r t h e r in v e s t i g a t io n i s f a c t u a ll y a n d l e g a lly in c o r r e c t y o u s a y ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S e c o n d ly y o u s a y t h a t t h e a s s e s s m e n t th a t g a v e r is e t o t h e r e p o r t i n it s fi n a l f o r m in c l u d i n g th e d e c is i o n a s w h a t q u o t e s t o r e ta i n a n d w h a t q u o t e s t o o m i t fr o m t h e w i t n e s s s t a t e m e n t s , is a m a t t e r o f j u d g e m e n t b y th e a u t h o r s o f th e second report and there was nothing untoward in the exercise of that 10 ju d g e m e n t , th a t ’s h o w I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: I ’l l g o f u r th e r C h a ir a n d s a y i t ’s a matter of professional judgement and opinion. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s a n d t h a t M r K h u b a m a k e s c le a r b e c a u s e h e c o n s u l te d w i t h Mr S e s o k o a n d t h e y c a n c o m e a n d g iv e t h e ir e v i d e n c e a b o u t t h a t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A b s o l u te ly a n d t h e y h a v e e x p e r i e n c e i n d o i n g t h is . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t , t h ir d ly y o u s a y t h a t h a d y o u n o t d o n e th e w o r k i n r e la t io n t o t h e in v e s t i g a t io n t h a t r e s u l t e d i n 20 t h e p r o d u c t io n o f t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t , y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n a c t in g i m p r o p e r ly a n d u n la w f u ll y. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A b s o l u te ly C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : S o M r M c Br id e a s f a r a s y o u c a n r e c a l l, a n d I d id n ’ t p ic k th is u p o n t h e W e r k s m a n s r e p o r t b u t y o u h a v e lo o k e d a t i t m u c h m o r e c l o s e ly I t h in k o v e r s o m e ti m e . A s f a r a s y o u r e c a ll it n e v e r Page 79 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 a d d r e s s e d o r a d d r e s s e s t h e q u e s t i o n o f s a y i n g , i f th e a l te r a t io n c a m e a b o u t a s a r e s u l t o f t h e f u r t h e r i n v e s ti g a t io n th a t w a s d o n e , w h a t w a s w r o n g w i t h i t, w h a t w a s – w a s t h e r e a n y t h i n g u n la w f u l a b o u t c h a n g in g i t in o r d e r t o b e in li n e w i t h t h e l a t e r i n v e s t i g a ti o n , i t d o e s n ’ t a d d r e s s t h a t a s fa r a s y o u r e c a l l? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: N o C h a ir i t ’s c o m p l e te l y i g n o r e d , t h a t a s p e c t. CHAIRPERSON : Yo u k n o w i t ’s – b y th e w a y w e ’l l h e a r, y o u k n o w, o th e r w it n e s s e s b u t y o u m u s tn ’ t fe e l b a d a b o u t e m p h a s i s i n g s o m e o f 10 t h e p o i n t s y o u h a v e b e e n e m p h a s is in g a b o u t t h i s r e p o r t b e c a u s e i f a n y b o d y i s g o i n g t o r e c o m m e n d , y o u k n o w, t h a t p e o p l e b e c r i m in a lly c h a r g e d t h e y r e a l ly n e e d t o a p p ly t h e i r m i n d s p r o p e r ly t o is s u e s b e c a u s e p e o p l e b e in g c h a r g e d c r i m in a lly i s n o t a s m a ll m a t t e r. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u ’v e a lr e a d y m a d e i t c l e a r t o t h e C h a ir in t h a t r e g a r d t h a t a s f a r a s I P I D is c o n c e r n e d t h a t a lt h o u g h it m a k e s i t s o w n c o m m e n ts a n d g iv e s i ts o w n o p i n io n t h e d u ty o n t h e p r o s e c u t o r t o d e te r m i n e t h e f a t e o f a p e r s o n s , w h e th e r t h e y s h o u l d b e c h a r g e d o r n o w o u l d b e , o b v i o u s l y t o e x a m i n e th e f u l l c o n t e n ts o f th e 20 docket and those were never tampered with. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : F i n a ll y i f I c o u l d j u s t a s k y o u t o lo o k a t – a n d I m e a n fi n a l ly fo r t h is a s p e c t o f t h e e v i d e n c e a t p a g e 11 5 2 o f B u n d l e Y C , y o u w il l r e c a ll th a t t h e a tt i tu d e o f t h e M i n is te r t h e a tt i tu d e o f th o s e t h a t t o o k I P I D t o ta s k in c lu d in g y o u r s e lf w a s t h e fir s t Page 80 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 r e p o r t s o m e h o w h a d a s t a t u s t h a t c o u l d n o t b e ta m p e r e d w i th i t a p p e a r e d th a t , t h a t m ig h t h a v e b e e n w e ll t h e m o ti v a t io n o f W e r k s m a n s a n d m a k i n g it s r e c o m m e n d a t io n s b u t w o u l d y o u l o o k a t 11 5 2 p l e a s e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : I h a v e i t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h is is a c o m m u n ic a ti o n fr o m t h e D ir e c to r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t i o n s G a u te n g L o c a l D i v is i o n , a M r R o b e r ts S C . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 It ’s d a t e d th e 2 3 r d o f A p r il 2 0 1 5 , a l m o s t a y e a r a f t e r th e s e c o n d r e p o r t w a s f il e d . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d i t ’s a d d r e s s e d to t h e a c ti n g E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r I n d e p e n d e n t P o li c e I n v e s ti g a tiv e D ir e c t o r a te . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : That would have been who at t h e ti m e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : It w o u l d b e M r K g a n a n y a n e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e r e n d i ti o n c a s e s a r e t h e s e th e s a m e r e n d it i o n c a s e s o r a r e t h e y d i ffe r e n t? 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : It ’s t h e s a m e c a s e C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t , i t s a y s in p a r a g r a p h 1 , “ t h e f o ll o w i n g f u r t h e r i n v e s t i g a t io n m u s t b e ta k e n o r m u s t b e d o n e b e f o r e a d e c is io n c a n b e t a k e n ” , a n d t h e n th e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f s u b p a r a g r a p h s w h ic h ta lk a b o u t a n e x p e r t a n a ly s is o f c e ll p h o n e d a t a i n r e l a ti o n t o M a j o r G e n e r a l S i b i y a i n r e l a t i o n t o h i s a l le g e d p r e s e n c e a t Page 81 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 t h e c r i m e s c e n e , it t a lk s a b o u t tr a n s c r i p t o f s m s m e s s a g e s s e n t o r r e c e i v e d b y L ie u t e n a n t C o l o n e l M a l a l e k e , M a j o r G e n e r a l S i b iy a a n d L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l D r a m a t d u r in g t h e p e r i o d o f t h e o p e r a t i o n s . I t t a lk s a b o u t f u r th e r c e ll p h o n e r e c o r d s a n d o n p a g e 11 5 3 is a l o n g l is t o f o th e r m a t te r s t o b e i n v e s t ig a t e d . T h e l e t t e r c o n c l u d e s a t p a r a g r a p h 2 o n p a g e 11 5 4 , “ t h e m a t te r m u s t b e r e g a r d e d a s u r g e n t a s t h e in v e s t i g a t io n m u s t b e c o m p l e te d o n o r b e f o r e 1 2 M a y 2 0 1 5 ” . S o t h a t i t s e e m s t h a t d e s p i te e v e r y t h i n g a n d d e s p i t e a ll th e a ll e g a t io n s a n d e v i d e n c e i n c l u d i n g t h o s e th a t l e d t o y o u r s u s p e n s i o n a n d c r i m i n a l 10 c h a r g e s b e i n g l a i d a g a i n s t y o u th a t e v e n o n 2 3 A p r i l 2 0 1 5 t h e in v e s t i g a t io n w a s h a r d ly c o m p l e t e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : B u t C h a i r t h e r e ’s a n a d d i t io n a l p r o b l e m w h ic h h a s o n l y s tr u c k m e n o w a lo t o f w i t h w h a t A d v o c a t e R o b e r t s is a s k in g fo r s h o u l d h a v e b e e n i n t h e d o c k e t th e r e a n d i t w a s p a r t o f t h e d o c k e t a n d i f fr o m m e m o r y, a n d M r K h u b a c a n – a t th is s ta g e M r K h u b a and Mr Sesoko are not yet suspended, M r Angus takes over the case u n d e r th e d ir e c t io n o f M r K g a m a n y a n e b u t i t a p p e a r s th a t s o m e – t h e p o i n t t h a t y o u a r e m a k i n g t h a t e v e n th e n a f te r I ’ m g o n e , t h e y ’ r e s ti ll lo o k in g f o r a d d i ti o n a l i n f o r m a t i o n , I ’l l a g r e e w i t h t h a t b u t i t a p p e a r s t h a t 20 s o m e o f th e i n fo r m a ti o n t h e y ’r e l o o k i n g f o r fr o m m e m o r y w a s i n t h e d o c k e t. A s I l o o k a t t h e m , I h a d n ’ t l o o k e d a t t h e m li n e b y li n e a n d t h e s e a r e is s u e s t h a t M r K h u b a h a d i n c l u d e d s o t h e r e ’s a n a d d i ti o n a l p r o b le m i n a d d i ti o n to th e o n e w h ic h y o u r a is e d t o m e th a t i t w a s n o t y e t c o m p l e t e a f t e r I ’v e b e e n s u s p e n d e d i n a n y c a s e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Page 82 of 170 O n t h e m o m e n t – fo r t h e 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 m o m e n t r a t h e r th e l e t te r s e e m s to in d i c a t e t h a t f u r th e r in v e s ti g a t io n s w e r e n e c e s s a r y b e f o r e a p r o s e c u to r i a l d e c is io n c o u l d b e m a d e b u t y o u a d d t h e c o n c e r n t h a t c e r t a i n in f o r m a t io n m a y h a v e b e e n r e m o v e d fr o m t h e d o c k e t b u t th e b e s t p e r s o n t o c o m m e n t o n t h a t w o u l d b e M r K h u b a I presume? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s s ir, th a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : In paragraph 44 you repeat a s p e c ts o f y o u r c r it i q u e i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e r e p o r t a n d y o u t h e n t a l k a b o u t. . .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u b a c k to t h e s ta t e m e n t? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B a c k to t h e s ta t e m e n t s o r r y, p a r a g r a p h 4 4 o n p a g e 9 o f E x h ib i t YA . Yo u t a lk a b o u t t h e c o s ts t o th e s t a te o f t h e w h o le r e n d i ti o n s a g a a n d y o u e s ti m a t e t h e c o s t t o th e s t a te t o b e in g i n t h e r e g io n o f 1 7 m il li o n r a n d a c c o r d i n g t o a r e p ly to a p a r l ia m e n t a r y q u e s t io n p u t t o t h e M i n is te r i n 2 0 1 7 , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Yo u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 4 6 o n page 9 that Khuba and Sesoko were suspended by Kgamanyane, the t h e n a c ti n g D i r e c to r o f I P I D o n 2 1 M a y 2 0 1 5 . Yo u s a y t h a t , t h a t w a s o n 20 t h e in s t r u c t i o n s o f th e M i n is t e r i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s C h a ir, ju s t to a d d th a t M r S e s o k o , o n h is s u s p e n s io n a n d b e in g i n f o r m e d b y M r K g a m a n y a n e m a d e a r e c o r d i n g o f M r K g a m a n y a n e s a y i n g t h a t h e ’s b e e n g iv e n i n s tr u c t io n s , w h ic h i n s tr u c ti o n s c a n o n ly c o m e fr o m th e M in is t e r t o s u s p e n d h i m . I n s o i n S e s o k o ’s a p p li c a t io n o r p r e p a r a t io n o f p a p e r s , a t a s ta g e w h e n w e Page 83 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 r a n o u t o f f u n d s t o c h a ll e n g e t h e d e c is i o n s t h a t K g a m a n y a n e t o o k , M r S e s o k o h a s a r e c o r d in g a n d a t r a n s c r i p t o f th a t c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h M r Kgamanyane. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u w e r e s u s p e n d e d f o r w h a t p e r i o d o f ti m e ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : I was suspended from the 24 th of March 2 0 1 5 a n d I r e t u r n e d t o w o r k o n t h e 1 9 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 6 , s o it ’s a p p r o x i m a te ly 1 8 m o n t h s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t in b r o a d s u m m a r y w h a t d id 10 y o u f in d o n y o u r r e t u r n i n r e l a ti o n t o is s u e s r e la t in g to r e s tr u c t u r i n g , tr a n s fe r s , d i s m is s a l s a n d a p p o i n t m e n t s ? D o n ’ t g o i n t o t h e d e ta il y e s w e ’r e g o in g to g o i n t o t h e d e t a il b u t ju s t t o i n tr o d u c e t h is t o p ic in a l in e o r tw o . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : I th in k ju s t f o r c o n t e x t a n d t h e p u r p o s e I s h o u ld s t a r t b y s a y in g th a t o n e o f t h e fir s t d e c is i o n s ta k e n b y M r K g a m a n y a n e w a s to te r m in a te I P I D ’s b r ie f t o l a w y e r s t o c h a ll e n g e t h e M i n is t e r C o n s t i tu t io n a l ly s o i m m e d i a te ly th a t b r ie f w a s w i th d r a w n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Is that why you explained that in t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t it w a s o n ly y o u , p r i o r to t h a t i t w a s I P I D ? 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : IPID and you? Ye s , s o t h e is s u e is , h is f ir s t d e c is i o n a s Ex e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r w a s t o e n s u r e t h a t I P I D d o e s n o t a c t i n th e in t e r e s t o f p r o te c ti n g th e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f i ts e l f , t h a t ’s th e f ir s t d e c is i o n h e t o o k a s a c t i n g E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r. N o w th e r e s t o f t h e s t u ff Page 84 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 w a s a lo t o f b a z a a r tr a n s f e r s , s u s p e n s i o n s . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . CHAIRPERSON : B e f o r e y o u g o – y o u d e a l w i t h t h o s e M r Mc B r i d e , j u s t t o u n d e r s ta n d b e c a u s e y o u d i d m e n t i o n e a r li e r a l s o t h a t y o u a n d I t h i n k Mr Sesoko ran out of funds at some stage. N o w t h e a p p li c a t i o n t h a t y o u m a d e to t h e H ig h C o u r t y o u r s e l f a n d la t e r t h e m a t t e r w e n t t o t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t , th e a p p l ic a n t s t h e r e w e r e r e f l e c te d a s y o u r s e l f a n d I P I D is t h a t r ig h t o r w a s it o n ly y o u ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : It w a s o n ly m e s ir. CHAIRPERSON : 10 A t t h e ti m e y o u w e n t to t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a l C o u r t w a s it o n ly y o u ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON : I n r e g a r d to t h a t s a m e m a t t e r a b o u t w h ic h y o u w e n t t o t h e C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t w e r e y o u t h e o n ly a p p li c a n t a t t h e H i g h C o u r t l e v e l a s w e l l? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : Ye s I w a s th e o n ly o n e a n d t h e n I w a s jo in e d b y t h e A m i c u s . CHAIRPERSON : A m i c u s o k a y b u t w a s n ’ t t h e r e a n a p p li c a t io n th a t w a s brought by you and IPID, there was such? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : 20 Ye s d u r i n g th e u r g e n t a p p l ic a t i o n o n 12th of March 2015. CHAIRPERSON : O h o k a y b u t t h a t ’s h o w f a r I P I D w e n t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : S o t h e p r o te c t i o n o f t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e fo r I P I D t h a t u l ti m a t e ly t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a l C o u r t c o n f ir m e d is e ff e c t iv e ly p r o t e c t io n t h a t w a s c o n f ir m e d , n o t j u s t f o r y o u r s e l f b u t a ls o f o r f u tu r e E x e c u ti v e Page 85 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 D ir e c t o r s o f I P I D a n d f o r I P I D o n y o u r o w n s o t o s p e a k w i t h o u t t h e in s t i tu t io n i ts e l f? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : A n d y o u p a i d fo r a ll o f t h a t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : A n d I P I D d id n o t p a y. MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: N o I P I D d id n o t p a y, I ’ m i n c lu d in g t h e L a b o u r C o u r t a s p e c t s , th e d is c ip li n a r y, i n t h e L a b o u r C o u r t m a t te r w e a p p r o a c h e d t h e L a b o u r C o u r t fo r a n in t e r d i c t t o s ta y th e d i s c i p li n a r y 10 u n t il t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a l C o u r t h a d m a d e i ts p r o n o u n c e m e n t o n th e m a t t e r a n d th a t a ls o w a s f r o m m y p o c k e t a n d t h e p r o c e s s o f t h e i n it i a l d is c i p l i n a r y – s o a l l o f th a t i t w a s .. . CHAIRPERSON : Out of your pocket. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : Ye s a n d s o th e s a m e i s s u e w i t h Mr S e s o k o a n d M r K h u b a a n d t h e ir d is c ip li n a r ie s a n d t h e y a r e s ti ll i n th e p r o c e s s o f p a y in g b a c k m o n e y n o w. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s , i n r e g a r d t o t h e m a t te r t h a t w e n t u p to th e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t I w o u l d i m a g i n e y o u g o t r e i m b u r s e d w e n t a c o s t o r d e r w a s m a d e a g a i n s t t h e M in is t e r ? 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s t h e r e w a s a r e i m b u r s e m e n t . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : F o r t h a t m a tt e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r t h a t m o n th ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A n d a ft e r t a x a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. Page 86 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : W e th e n r e c e i v e d t h e a f te r t a x a t i o n I t h i n k i s a l e g a l te r m . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : S u b j e c t to t a x a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s w e d i d r e c e i v e it . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : N o w – i t w o u l d b e o k a y i f th e m a t t e r le f t there. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : C h a ir b u t w e a ls o h a d th e n e e d to u til is e m o n e y i n t h e c r i m in a l c a s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : To d e f e n d o u r s e lv e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : W h ic h it is o n ly n o w t h a t I P I D is c o n s i d e r in g r e i m b u r s i n g M r S e s o k o a n d M r K h u b a . I h a v e n e v e r b e e n r e i m b u r s e d f o r t h e c r i m in a l c a s e . CHAIRPERSON : H’m. 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : S o – a n d t h a t is th e – I m e a n t h a t is … CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h e tr a g e d y o f a ll o f t h i s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : s li g h t d e g r e e o f c l a r i f ic a ti o n . M r M c B r i d e p e r h a p s it n e e d s a T h e o r i g i n a l N o t ic e o f M o t io n a n d th e Page 87 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 a p p lic a ti o n t o th e h i g h c o u r t c o n c e r n i n g y o u r s u s p e n s io n i s a t p a g e 1 4 3 o f b u n d l e o f E x h i b i t Ya . B u t l e t m e j u s t p u t th e s e q u e n c e a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t fr o m a r e v i e w o f a l l t h e p a p e r s . A n u r g e n t a p p lic a ti o n was brought in regard to the suspension to which you have referred. In t h a t a p p lic a ti o n th e r e w e r e tw o a p p lic a n ts , t h e In d e p e n d e n t P o l ic e I n v e s ti g a t iv e D ir e c t o r a t e a n d y o u r s e l f ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t a p p l ic a t i o n h a d t w o p a r ts . P a r t A fo r i n t e r i m r e li e f o n a n u r g e n t b a s i s r e g a r d i n g y o u r s u s p e n s i o n . 10 P a r t B a d e c l a r a ti o n o f u n c o n s ti t u t i o n a l i ty a n d w e h a v e b e e n to – in t o t h a t d e t a i l . P a r t A th e u r g e n c y t h e j u d g e f o u n d t h a t i t w a s n o t u r g e n t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : T h e j u d g e r e a s o n s i f I – w a s th a t I h a d n o t b e e n s u s p e n d e d y e t . It w a s in p e n d i n g th e r e i s n o h a r m d o n e , o n e o f h is r e a s o n s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s b u t a n y w a y P a r t A r e l ie f w a s r e fu s e d ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t w a s th e a p p li c a t io n f o r u r g e n t r e li e f ? 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Q u it e h o w i t w a s p h r a s e d . I t i s n o t n e c e s s a r y t o d e b a te t h a t n o w. P a r t B t h e n c o n ti n u e d la t e r a n d a t t h a t s t a g e y o u w e r e th e o n ly a p p l ic a n t , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : C h a ir l e t m e j u s t g o b a c k . I n P a r t B i n t h e j u d g e m e n t o f J u d g e F a b r ic iu s h e i n d ic a te d t h a t P a r t B w o r d s t o t h e Page 88 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 e ffe c t ‘ s ta n d s a c h a n c e , i t h a s m e r i t ’ a n d w h i c h h e s a i d w h i c h h e d id n o t h a v e t o s a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: B u t h e d id s a y i t i n h i s ju d g m e n t in t u r n i n g d o w n th e u r g e n c y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : S o i t w a s i d e n ti f ie d a t f ir s t g o b y J u d g e Fi b r ic iu s e v e n th o u g h h e t u r n e d d o w n t h e u r g e n c y a s p e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 Ye s . B u t P a r t B e v e n tu a lly ended up in the high court. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A n d th e n w e n t o n to t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l c o u r t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t w h e n P a r t B w a s d e t e r m i n e d y o u w e r e th e o n ly a p p l ic a n t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n r e g a r d t o P a r t B w a s I P I D – o r le t m e f i r s t a s k . I n 20 pursuing Part B were new papers prepared or was use made of the p a p e r s th a t h a d a l r e a d y b e e n fi l e d i n t h e u r g e n t a p p l ic a ti o n , d o y o u remember? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : E x a c t ly n o w j a , j a . Page 89 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y b u t i t w a s o n e a p p li c a n t a n d t h a t w a s y o u . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : Leaving out the amicus and s o on? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t b e c a u s e … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : B y t h e 1 M a y – b y th e 1 A p r il I P I D i f I r e m e m b e r t h e d a te s c o r r e c t ly I P I D h a d – h a d t e r m i n a t e d i ts b r i e f . S o I t h i n k w e o n ly s u b m i t te d i n A u g u s t o r S e p t e m b e r t h e fi n a l p a p e r s fo r th e high court. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : O f t h a t y e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A g a i n j u s t t o c o m p l e t e t h a t li n e o f q u e s ti o n i n g . I n th e o r i g i n a l a p p lic a ti o n i n w h i c h I P I D a n d y o u r s e l f w e r e a p p li c a n ts y o u r f o u n d in g a ffi d a v i t t r a v e r s e s a ll t h e is s u e s t h a t fi n a l ly c a m e b e f o r e t h e c o n s t i tu t io n a l c o u r t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t a ffi d a v i t is a t p a g e 1 4 8 o f b u n d l e Ya . B u t l e t u s r e t u r n to th e p o i n t w h ic h w e h a v e a r r iv e d a t . Yo u 20 say you were suspended for a period of eighteen months. Yo u c a m e b a c k a n d y o u f o u n d th a t th in g s h a d c h a n g e d ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u a r e n o w g o i n g to t e l l th e C h a ir o f h o w th e y h a d c h a n g e d p a r tic u la r l y i n r e l a ti o n t o r e s tr u c t u r in g a p p o i n t m e n ts a n d d is m is s a ls a n d tr a n s fe r s , a m I c o r r e c t? Page 90 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y. In your absence how m a n y s e n io r m a n a g e r s w e r e s u s p e n d e d o r tr a n s f e r r e d ? Yo u d e a l w i th that in paragraph 47. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : It is a t le a s t … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S u s p e n d e d o r tr a n s f e r r e d ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A t l e a s t e ig h t s e n io r m a n a g e r s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I a m s o r r y. I interrupted you I a m s o r r y. 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : C h a ir j a i n t e r m s o f a t le a s t e i g h t s e n i o r m a n a g e r s w e r e a ff e c t e d i n o n e o r a n o t h e r e i t h e r b y tr a n s fe r o r a s u s p e n s i o n . I t m i g h t – i t m ig h t e v e n b e m o r e t h a n th e e ig h t . B e c a u s e s o m e w e r e tr a n s fe r r e d m a in ly t o f il l g a p s th a t w e r e l e f t a t th o s e – o f t h o s e w h o w e r e tr a n s fe r r e d s e e m in g ly fo r w h a t – l e t … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e w i ll c o m e t o t h e d e ta il la t e r. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O r s o m e d e t a i l l a t e r. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : J u s t a q u e s t i o n b e fo r e t h e l o n g 20 adjournment. D o y o u r e c a ll t h e a n a ly s i s th a t y o u d i d t o g e t h e r w i t h M e s s r s P il l a y a n d D r a m a t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e n o t i o n th a t a s e n io r o ffi c e r b e a r in g s o m e r e s p o n s i b i li ty i n a s ta t e i n s ti t u t i o n i s r e m o v e d a n d th a t i s f o ll o w e d by an o v e r a ll r e s tr ic t in g and Page 91 of 170 other d is m is s a ls and 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 a p p o i n t m e n ts . Wa s th a t u n iq u e t o I P I D ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : N o C h a ir i t – w e h a d n o ti c e d t h e s a m e p a t t e r n i n D P C I a n d w e h a d n o t ic e d t h e s a m e p a t t e r n i n S A R S . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . C h a ir m a y w e a d jo u r n ? CHAIRPERSON : Ye s w e w ill t a k e t h e lu n c h a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e w il l resume at two. We adjourn. REGISTRAR: All rise. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d M r P r e t o r i u s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: C h a ir during the long a d j o u r n m e n t w e g a v e c o n s i d e r a t io n to t h e n e c e s s i t y p e r h a p s t o c la r i fy o n e o r t w o is s u e s in r e g a r d t o m a t t e r s d e a lt w it h b e f o r e t h e lo n g adjournment. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : can take you back please. M y a p o l o g i e s M r Mc B r i d e . If I Th e W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 3 7 1 o f B u n d l e Y D th a t is E X H I B I T Y D . W o u l d y o u t u r n t o t h a t p le a s e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : I h a v e i t s i r. 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u w il l r e c a l l j u s t b y w a y o f b a c k g r o u n d t o m y q u e s ti o n w h ic h f o ll o w s th a t a t a ll t i m e s w e h a v e s p o k e n o f a p r o v is io n a l o r f ir s t r e p o r t s ig n e d b y M r K h u b a a n d a s e c o n d r e p o r t s i g n e d b y y o u r s e l f , M e s s ie u r s S e s o k o a n d K h u b a . correct? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . Page 92 of 170 I s th a t 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e s e c o n d r e p o r t d i ff e r e d fr o m t h e fi r s t r e p o r t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t. N o w th a t - a n a n a ly s i s o f t h o s e d i ff e r e n c e s a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 4 0 4 . L e a v e a s id e t h e a d d i ti o n a l m a t t e r s a b o u t w h ic h W e r k s m a n s m a k e s c o m m e n t a s t o w h e t h e r i t w a s n e c e s s a r y o r d e s ir a b l e a t a ll . T h a t is a d i ff e r e n t is s u e , b u t a t 1 4 0 4 is a n a ly s is o f w h a t i s r e f e r r e d t o a s I P I D R e p o r t 1 a n d I P I D R e p o r t 2 . D o you see that? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s , w h ic h is i n c o r r e c t ly t it l e d “ D e l e ti o n o f E v id e n c e ” a t p a r a g r a p h 1 o n t o p o f t h e p a g e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . N o e v id e n c e w a s e v e r t a m p e r e d w i t h o r d e l e te d ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: No. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e e v i d e n c e a lw a y s r e m a i n e d in t h e f o r m o f w i tn e s s s ta t e m e n ts i n th e d o c k e t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : A b s o l u t e ly a n d p e r h a p s i t is in s t r u c tiv e fr o m t h is w h y th e y m is u n d e r s to o d w h a t w a s g o i n g o n o r t h a t is . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : A p o s s i b l e r e a s o n a b l e e x p l a n a ti o n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Because they saw the report and the c h a n g e s in t h e r e p o r t a n d t h e o m is s i o n o f c e r t a i n a s p e c t s o f t h e r e p o r t , t h e ir o p in io n a s e v i d e n c e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t b u t i n a n y e v e n t i t a p p e a r s Page 93 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 fr o m p a g e 1 4 0 4 th a t t h e s t a t e m e n t o f N d a n d u l e n i R ic h a r d M a d il o n g a h a d b e e n q u o te d i n th e fir s t r e p o r t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: And the quotes fr o m that s t a te m e n t i n t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t d i ffe r e d . C o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : a ffi d a v i t . A n d K h u b a e x p l a i n s th a t i n h is I w il l c o m e t o t h a t i n a m o m e n t . The same category of o b s e r v a t i o n i s m a d e in th e r e p o r t r ig h t t h r o u g h t o p a g e 1 4 1 5 . D o y o u 10 s e e t h a t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : [ In t e r v e n e s ] . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : F r o m 1 4 0 4 . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : To 1 4 1 5 . N o w I a m n o t g o i n g t o g o i n to t h e d e t a i l . A t a p a r tic u la r l e v e l w e w i ll b e h e r e f o r s e v e r a l weeks if we do that. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s s ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Sa ve to say the issue taken by W e r k s m a n s a p p e a r s p r o p e r l y r e g a r d e d n o t t o b e a n y a l t e r a ti o n t o 20 e v i d e n c e b u t m e r e ly t o w h a t M r K h u b a a n d M r S e s o k o t h o u g h t a s r e l e v a n t q u o t a ti o n s to t h e r e p o r t . W h a t i s y o u r e x p l a n a ti o n f o r t h e s e “changes”? Just at a general level. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: The changes according to Khuba, to K h u b a a s I s a id e a r li e r is b a s e d o n i n t e r m s o f h is a n a l y s i s w h a t w a s r e m o v e d w a s n o o f e v id e n t i a r y v a l u e a n d s e r v e d n o r e a l p u r p o s e Page 94 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 according to him for the changes at that stage. CHAIRPERSON : W e ll h e r e i s a s ta r ti n g p o i n t w h e r e a n y i n q u ir y in t o w h a t t h e M i n is te r h a d a s k e d W e r k s m a n s s h o u l d h a v e s t a r t e d . In the t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e w h ic h f r o m t h e M in i s t e r t o W e r k s m a n s w h ic h is q u o t e d i n th e W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t a t p a g e 1 3 7 5 . T h e fi r s t t e r m o f r e fe r e n c e w h ic h is 5 .1 s a y s : “ Yo u r t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e i n th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a r e th e f o ll o w i n g : 5 . 1 w h o a n d u n d e r w h a t c ir c u m s ta n c e s w a s th e o r i g in a l r e p o r t a l t e r e d o r h o w t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t c a m e a b o u t w i t h b o t h r e p o r ts s i g n e d b y t h e 10 s a m e p e r s o n .” I t s e e m s t o m e t h a t w h a t f o ll o w s i n 5 . 2 , 5 .3 , 5 . 4 a n d 5 .5 i s a ll [i n d is t in c t] o n w h e t h e r t h e o r i g i n a l r e p o r t w a s a l t e r e d . W h o a n d u n d e r what c ir c u m s ta n c e s was the o r i g in a l report a l te r e d ? Now my i m p r e s s io n w a s t h a t i f y o u g o t o t h e – w h a t h e r e f e r s t o a s t h e o r i g i n a l r e p o r t w h i c h is t h e f ir s t r e p o r t o r p r e l i m in a r y r e p o r t. I f y o u w e n t to t h e fir s t r e p o r t p r i o r to t h e s o c a ll e d a l t e r a ti o n y o u w o u l d h a v e f o u n d i t t o lo o k i n a c e r t a in w a y. I f y o u w e n t t o i t a f te r t h e a l te r a t io n y o u w o u l d t h e n f in d t h a t i t lo o k e d d i ff e r e n t – d i ffe r e n tly b e c a u s e s o m e s e n t e n c e s 20 m a y b e h a d b e e n d e l e t e d fr o m i t o r h a d b e e n c r o s s e d o u t o r s o m e th in g s h a d b e e n a d d e d t o th a t r e p o r t b y s o m e b o d y. N o w t h e e v id e n c e th a t h a s b e e n g iv e n a n d s o m e o f th e t h i n g s s e e m t o s u g g e s t th a t t h a t m a y n o t n e c e s s a r i ly b e c o r r e c t . N o w c a n y o u c le a r t h a t? W h e n t h e r e is t a lk o f t h e a l t e r a t i o n o f t h e r e p o r t w e c a n s e e fr o m t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e t h a t t h e M i n i s te r ’s c o n c e r n w a s a b o u t th e a l t e r a t i o n o f w h a t h e c a lls t h e Page 95 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 o r i g in a l r e p o r t w h ic h w e s a id i s t h e fir s t r e p o r t . S o fo r g e t a b o u t t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t . Wa s th e r e – d id t h e f ir s t r e p o r t p h y s ic a l ly l o o k d i ff e r e n t in t e r m s o f w h a t i t c o n t a i n e d a f t e r t h e a ll e g e d a l t e r a ti o n th a n it l o o k e d b e f o r e th e a l te r a t io n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : C h a i r t o a n s w e r y o u r q u e s t i o n I th in k I n o w u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e a r li e r q u e s t io n . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E: O n t h is is s u e w h ic h p e r h a p s I d id n o t a n s w e r c o r r e c t ly. 10 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : O r s p e c if ic a l ly t o a n s w e r y o u r q u e s ti o n . T h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f r e p o r ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: W h ic h s t a r t f r o m p e r h a p s w h a t I a m a w a r e o f is 2 0 1 3 , O c to b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h e n it c h a n g e s i n N o v e m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Because things are added or and. 20 CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : I t is s e n t t o M o s in g , s e n t b a c k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: B y t h e t i m e i t c o m e s t o J a n u a r y, t h e 2 2 n d th e s o c a l le d fir s t r e p o r t . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. Page 96 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : I t h a s a lr e a d y h a d s o m e e v o lu t io n i n i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: B e c a u s e o f th e d is c u s s i o n b e tw e e n Mosing and Khuba. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : A n d t h e ir w o r k i n g t o g e t h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: And presumably acquiring. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: For the statement. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: S o it w ill b e b e t w e e n K h u b a a n d Mosing. CHAIRPERSON : Ja, yes. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: And perhaps Moukangwe. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I t is i n a p e r i o d w h e r e S e s o k o w a s f o r b i d d e n t o b e p a r t o f th e p r o c e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: A n d it i s in a p e r i o d w h e r e I h a d n o t a r r iv e d y e t a t I P I D / CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: S o i t is b e t w e e n K h u b a , M o s i n g a n d Moukangwe. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. Page 97 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: W h o w o u l d k n o w e x a c t ly w h o a n d I d o n o t k n o w i f t h e y w i ll b e a b l e t o r e c a ll a f t e r s o m a n y y e a r s w h o c h a n g e d w h a t w h e n a n d t h e r a ti o n a l e f o r i t . I n th a t r e p o r t th a t b e c a m e n o w – is n o w k n o w n f o r s a k e o f c o n v e n ie n c e a s t h e fir s t r e p o r t a n d I a m n o t s u r e w h a t th e M i n is t e r m e a n s b y t h e o r i g i n a l r e p o r t in h i s t e r m o f r e fe r e n c e . CHAIRPERSON : B u t in t e r m s o f – I m e a n y o u k n o w w h a t t h e d is c u s s io n s w e r e b e tw e e n y o u r s e lf a n d M r J u l y d u r in g th e i n t e r v ie w. A t le a s t a s s u m i n g t h a t w h a t t h e y w e r e ta lk i n g a b o u t r e fl e c t e d w h a t t h e M i n is t e r h a d i n m i n d . 10 W h e n t h e y t a lk e d a b o u t t h e a l te r a ti o n a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e p o s it i o n w e r e t h e y t a lk i n g a b o u t a r e p o r t t h a t c o n t a i n e d c e r t a i n th in g s a t a c e r t a i n t i m e b u t a f t e r a p e r i o d t h o s e t h i n g s o r s o m e o f t h o s e t h in g s h a d b e e n a l te r e d i n th a t r e p o r t a s o p p o s e d t o d i ffe r e n t v ie w s o r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s b e i n g m a d e i n a n o th e r r e p o r t. I n o th e r w o r d s i f a r e p o r t w a s o n e p a g e w e r e t h e y ta lk in g o n a b a s is th a t l o o k t h is r e p o r t w h ic h i s o n e p a g e b e f o r e i t h a d th is s e n te n c e . I t n o w d o e s not have that sentence. Before it had this paragraph now it does not h a v e th a t p a r a g r a p h . B e f o r e i t d i d n o t h a v e t h is s e n t e n c e b u t it n o w h a s a n e w s e n t e n c e . T h a t is w h a t I a m tr y in g t o e s t a b l is h w h e th e r t h i s r e fe r e n c e t o a l t e r a t io n b e c a u s e t h a t is t h e m e a n in g it g iv e s m e a s 20 o p p o s e d t o a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e y o u s a y s o m e b o d y h a s i n a c e r t a i n r e p o r t – le t u s c a l l it i n a f ir s t r e p o r t h a s e x p r e s s e d c e r t a i n v i e w s a n d t h e n i n a n o t h e r a n d la t e r r e p o r t h e h a s e x p r e s s e d d i ff e r e n t v i e w s . N o w i f y o u a s k m e i f a p e r s o n e x p r e s s e s d i ff e r e n t v i e w s o r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s in a s e c o n d a n d la t e r r e p o r t . Vi e w s t h a t a r e d i ff e r e n t fr o m t h e o n e s h e h a s e x p r e s s e d i n t h e f ir s t r e p o r t . T h a t is n o t a l t e r i n g t h e r e p o r t . Page 98 of 170 Th a t i s 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 e x p r e s s in g d i ff e r e n t v ie w s i n a l a t e r r e p o r t b u t f o r m e t h a t i s n o t a l t e r i n g t h e fir s t r e p o r t . I m e a n i t i s tr u e t h a t – i t m a y b e tr u e t h a t t h e e ffe c t i s th a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n A w h ic h w a s i n t h e fir s t r e p o r t is n o lo n g e r t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n t h a t s t a n d s b u t t h a t is n o t b e c a u s e i t is b e i n g a l t e r e d i n t h e f ir s t r e p o r t . I t is b e c a u s e i t is o v e r w r it t e n b y a la t e r r e p o r t w h e r e th e r e is a d i ff e r e n t v ie w. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : A b s o l u te ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I a m tr y in g to e s t a b li s h w h e th e r in tr u th th e r e w a s e v e r a n y a l t e r a t i o n o f t h e f ir s t r e p o r t i n t h e s e n s e t h a t I u n d e r s ta n d 10 a l t e r a t i o n t o m e a n a s o p p o s e d t o t h e r e w e r e s i m p ly a c h a n g e o f v i e w s , a change of mind on the part of for example Mr Khuba who might have e x p r e s s e d a c e r t a i n v i e w b e f o r e in th e f ir s t r e p o r t. In th e s e c o n d r e p o r t h e a s s o c i a t e d h i ms e l f w i t h a d i ffe r e n t v i e w o r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n b e c a u s e o f a n e w i n v e s ti g a t i o n a n d th e n w h e n i t c o m e s t o – w h e n i t c a m e t o y o u a n d M r S e s o k o y o u h a d n e v e r e x p r e s s e d a n y v i e w i n r e g a r d t o t h e fi r s t r e p o r t y o u w e r e e x p r e s s i n g y o u r v i e w s a n d r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s fo r t h e fir s t t i m e i n th e s e c o n d r e p o r t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is t h a t i s c o r r e c t . A n e x a m p l e o ff t h e to p o f m y h e a d w a s t h a t s o m e s t u ff o f t h e s o c a l le d f ir s t r e p o r t 20 w o u ld b e r e p e a t e d i n t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : B u t s o m e q u a li fi c a t io n a d d e d o n t o i t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: To s a y t h i s c a n n o l o n g e r b e t h e c a s e because we have not proven X, Y and Z. Page 99 of 170 For example I remember a 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 success report. Did the success – someone sent a success report to a m o n g s t o t h e r s G e n e r a l D r a m a t. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : A n d t h e r e f o r e f r o m t h e i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t w a s a v a i la b le t h e n w i t h o u t t h e b e n e f i t o f a n a ly s is a n d r e v ie w w a s a t s o m e h o w b y s e n d in g t h e r e p o r t t o D r a m a t h e t h e r e f o r e k n e w s o m e t h in g was going on. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E: 10 I t l a t e r tr a n s p ir e d t h a t i t i s n o t e v e n c le a r w h e th e r t h e r e p o r t w a s a c tu a l ly s e n t . T h e r e is a n e l e c tr o n i c c o p y o n s o m e o n e ’s c o m p u t e r b u t w h e t h e r i t w a s a c tu a lly s e n t o r n o t is n o t, is not known. W h e th e r i t w a s a c t u a ll y r e c e iv e d a n d w h e t h e r i t w a s a c t u a ll y r e a d a n d w h o e v e r – i f h e h a d k n o w l e d g e o f i t w a s , w a s o f a n y c o n s e q u e n c e a t a ll o f t h e a r r e s t. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h e s u c c e s s r e p o r t is t o t h e a r r e s t. CHAIRPERSON : H m , b u t to g o b a c k t o m y q u e s t io n . Is i t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t w h a t w a s a n i s s u e w a s n e v e r r e a l ly a b o u t a n y b o d y g o i n g to t h e s o c a ll e d f ir s t r e p o r t a n d c h a n g i n g s e n t e n c e s a n d c r o s s in g 20 o u t s o m e t h in g s a n d a d d i n g s o m e th in g s i n t o th a t r e p o r t a s s u c h ? A s f a r a s y o u r e c a l l w h a t w a s a n i s s u e w a s t h a t in th e s e c o n d r e p o r t i n - t h e fi n a l r e p o r t v i e w s w e r e e x p r e s s e d y o u r r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s w e r e m a d e t h a t d i ffe r e d fr o m th e v i e w s a n d t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s m a d e i n t h e f ir s t r e p o r t . I s t h a t y o u r, is t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t t h e w h o le i s s u e was about? Page 100 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E: F o r m e m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t t h e r e w a s a c h a n g e a t a l l t o t h e fi r s t a n d t h a t a n y t h i n g [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y j u s t r e p e a t t h a t s e n t e n c e . J u s t r e p e a t th a t s e n te n c e . Yo u r v i e w i s t h a t t h e r e w a s a c h a n g e o r n o c h a n g e ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: T h e o b s e s s io n w i t h W e r k s m a n s t h e M i n is t e r a n d a ll t h e a d v i s o r s w a s th a t th e r e w a s a c h a n g e o f t h e f ir s t r e p o r t a n d th e y e le v a t e d th e fi r s t r e p o r t t o a s ta t u s w h i c h l o g ic a l ly i t c o u l d n o t e n jo y a n d t h a t i t w a s i n v ia b l e . It c a n n e v e r c h a n g e u n d e r a n y c ir c u m s ta n c e s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t h a n g o n . I a m s o r r y t o i n te r r u p t y o u . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON : Yo u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g , is y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t o n e n o b o d y c o u l d t a lk a b o u t y o u o r M r S e s o k o h a v i n g c h a n g e d y o u r v i e w s o r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a b o u t a n y th i n g b e c a u s e y o u n e v e r p a r t ic ip a t e d i n t h e fi r s t r e p o r t . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n e v e r p a r ti c i p a t e d . Yo u h a d n o r o l e t o in th e f ir s t report? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : A b s o l u te ly n o n e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e e x t e n t th a t a n y b o d y c o u ld ta lk a b o u t a c h a n g e o f r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o r a n y b o d y c h a n g i n g h i s v i e w o r h e r v i e w th a t w o u l d o n ly a p p ly to Mr K h u b a b e c a u s e in th e f i r s t r e p o r t h e h a d e x p r e s s e d c e r t a i n r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s . Th o s e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s w e r e d i ff e r e n t fr o m t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s m a d e in t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t w h ic h h e c o - s i g n e d ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . Page 101 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 CHAIRPERSON : T h a t is c o r r e c t . S o , s o I a m tr y i n g t o e s t a b l is h w h e t h e r t h is w h o le t h i n g w a s a b o u t w h y M r K h u b a c h a n g e d h i s v ie w t h a t th e s e p e o p l e m u s t b e p r o s e c u t e d . Wa s i t a b o u t – w h y d i d h e c h a n g e h is v i e w o r w a s i t a b o u t w h y d id h e g o t o t h e f ir s t r e p o r t p h y s i c a ll y a n d c r o s s o u t c e r t a i n s e n te n c e s o r p a r a g r a p h s o r a d d t h in g s t h a t w e r e n o t t h e r e p h y s ic a l ly ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E: From the evidence and fr o m t h e a ffi d a v i ts a n d fr o m e n g a g e m e n t M r K h u b a i s o n r e c o r d a s s a y i n g h e s e n t a d r a ft a t s o m e s ta g e in 2 0 1 4 to M r S e s o k o ’s c o m p u t e r a n d i t is o n 10 t h a t d r a ft w h a t e v e r i t w a s w h e th e r i t w a s t h e s a m e a c o r r e s p o n d e n t to t h e f ir s t r e p o r t o r n o t t h e y w o r k e d o n t h a t d r a f t a n d th a t is w h e r e t h e r e were changes. I f I w o u l d s a y t h a t th e s e c o n d r e p o r t is p e r h a p s a n e n h a n c e m e n t o n t h e f a c ts o r e m p h a s is t h a t w a s c o n t a i n e d i n t h e f ir s t r e p o r t . S o t h a t i s a l l I c a n s a y. I a m n o t s u r e w h a t t r a n s p i r e d b e tw e e n – t o g i v e r i s e to t h e e x is t e n c e o f t h e f ir s t r e p o r t a n d w h a t e v e r c h a n g e s t o o k p la c e t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : A n d w h a t w a s i n t h e f ir s t r e p o r t a t t h e s t a g e w h e n I c o - s ig n e d w i th K h u b a a n d S e s o k o a n d n o w k n o w n a s t h e 20 s e c o n d r e p o r t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : I d o n o t k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r Pr e t o r i u s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: W e ll perhaps without any p r e s u m p ti o n w h a t t h e D C J i s p u t t in g to y o u is t h is . T h e f ir s t r e p o r t w a s Page 102 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 a l w a y s t h e r e o n f il e ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o o n e t o o k t h a t fir s t r e p o r t a d d e d , d e le t e d , c h a n g e d t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n , th r e w t h e o r ig i n a l f ir s t r e p o r t a w a y a n d p u t t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t o n f il e . Tw o r e p o r ts w e r e a lw a y s o n f il e . O n e i n o n e f o r m , t h e o t h e r i n t h e o t h e r f o r m . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I n f a c t w h e n th e M i n is t e r r e q u e s t e d a l l o f t h i s i n f o r m a ti o n b o th r e p o r ts w e r e g iv e n t o t h e M i n is t e r. 10 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : S o t h e r e w a s n o a t t e m p t to m is le a d t h e M i n is t e r b y o n ly s h o w in g o n e , o n e r e p o r t . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: B o t h r e p o r ts a r e w i t h th e b u n d le t h a t w a s s e a le d a n d g iv e n to t h e M i n i s t e r o n 2 6 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y a n d w h a t a p p e a r s to h a v e e s c a p e d p e r h a p s t h e M i n i s t e r ’s a t t e n t io n a n d W e r k s m a n s a tt e n ti o n is t h e f u n d a m e n ta l i s s u e y o u r a i s e w it h t h e f ir s t r e p o r t t h a t it w a s la r g e l y 20 the project – th e product rather – of th e Crime I n t e ll ig e n c e in v e s t i g a t io n . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E: T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d s o t h a t f ir s t r e p o r t fa r fr o m b e i n g i n c a p a b le o f a l t e r a ti o n o r s u p p l e m e n ta t io n o r b e i n g s u b j e c t e d t o a n o t h e r v i e w it is a r g u a b le t h a t n o r e g a r d s h o u l d b e e n h a d t o i t a n d y o u Page 103 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 s h o u l d h a v e s t a r te d a g a i n . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: W h ic h C h a ir is i n d e e d w h a t K h u b a p r o c e e d e d to d o to r e v i e w e v e r y t h i n g t h a t w a s t h e r e a t t h a t s t a g e a n d t h e r e la t iv e e v i d e n t ia r y v a l u e . T h e w a y i t – i t c a n n e v e r s t a n d u p in c o u r t n o w th a t a ll t h e f a c ts a r e – it c o u l d n e v e r e v e r b a s e d o n – o f t h e s h e n a n i g a n s t h a t t o o k p l a c e b e f o r e i t a r r iv e d a t I P I D in a n y e v e n t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : If necessary the report maybe s u b j e c t t o f u r t h e r a n a ly s is a n d d e b a te b u t ju s t to h i g h li g h t th e a p p r o a c h o f M r K h u b a i t a p p e a r s a t 1 2 3 6 o f E X H I B I T Y C . Yo u h a v e t e s ti f ie d th a t 10 K h u b a w a s d o i n g a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n i n to t h e r e n d i ti o n s a g a u n d e r t h e s u p e r v i s i o n o f Mr M o s i n g – A d v o c a te M o s i n g – o f t h e N PA ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d K h u b a h a d i n h e r i te d th e d o c k e t f o r w a n t o f a b e t te r w o r d f r o m C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : K h u b a h a d a n u m b e r o f c o n c e r n s w h ic h h e h i g h li g h ts in h is a ffi d a v it b u t in p a r a g r a p h 1 9 o n p a g e 1 2 3 6 h e says: “ W h il e I c o n v e y t h e s e c o n c e r n s to M o s i n g h e to ld 20 m e th a t I m u s t n e v e r t h e l e s s s i g n t h e J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 R e p o r t a n d s e n d it t o h i m a s t h e in v e s ti g a ti o n h a d b e e n g o in g o n f o r t w o l o n g .” H e s t a te s e ls e w h e r e t h a t h e w a s u n d e r p r e s s u r e fr o m t h e N PA to p r o d u c e th e r e p o r t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . Page 104 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : L e a v e a s id e w h e t h e r t h a t a ls o in t e r fe r e s w it h th e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f I P I D o r n o t. H is e x p l a n a t io n i s summarised in paragraph 20. He says: “ I fi r m ly d e n y t h a t t h e r e w a s a n y i m p r o p e r m o ti v e o n m y p a r t , S e s o k o o r M c Br i d e in t h e c h a n g e s t h a t w e r e m a d e t o t h e R e n d i t io n s I n v e s ti g a ti o n R e p o r t i n M a r c h 2 0 1 4 .” H e a l s o is c a u g h t u p i n th e , i n t h e u s e o f la n g u a g e t h a t r e f e r s to c h a n g e s i n a r e p o r t r a t h e r t h a n th e p r o d u c t io n o f a s e c o n d r e p o r t . H e 10 said: “ T h e r e w a s n o a t te m p t o n o u r p a r t t o e x c lu d e a n y m a t e r i a l e v i d e n c e fr o m t h e r e p o r t . Th e c h a n g e s w e r e m a d e t o r e fl e c t w h a t w e c o n s i d e r e d t o b e c r e d i b le e v i d e n c e t h a t w o u ld w i th s t a n d s c r u t in y i n c o u r t .” Is t h a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t , y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n p a r a g r a p h 2 3 o v e r th e p a g e , 1237 he says: 20 “ I n fi n a li s i n g th e r e p o r t a n d p r e s e n ti n g t h e f in a l r e p o r t to M c Br id e f o r a u t h o r is a ti o n w e s o u g h t t o c o n d u c t a t h o r o u g h , c r i t ic a l a n d o b j e c t iv e r e v ie w o f t h e t o t a li t y o f t h e e v i d e n c e a n d t o p r e s e n t o n ly r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t w e r e s u p p o r t e d b y c r e d i b l e evidence.” Page 105 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 T h a t is h is e x p l a n a t io n . H e w il l c o m e h e r e to t e l l t h e C h a ir a b o u t th a t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t a s f a r a s y o u a r e a w a r e th a t was the correct approach? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n a n y e v e n t to j u s t m a k e i t c l e a r w h a t W e r k s m a n s fo u n d a t p a g e 1 4 2 7 a t p a r a g r a p h 5 . 1 .5 t h e y fi n d : “ I n t h e a b s e n c e o f a v a l id e x p l a n a ti o n f o r t h e d e l e t i o n s b y t h e c o s i g n a t o r i e s t h e o n l y lo g i c a l conclusion 10 w h ic h can be drawn from th e c ir c u m s ta n c e s d e ta il e d a b o v e is t h a t t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t w a s c r e a t e d f o r th e p u r p o s e o f e x o n e r a t e d t h e h i g h e r r a n k i n g o ff ic ia ls s p e c i f i c a ll y D r a m a t a n d S i b iy a w h o w e r e i m p l ic a t e d i n th e fir s t r e p o r t .” T h e i m p li c a t io n a n d th a t is E X H I B I T Y D p a g e 1 4 2 7 a n d p a r a g r a p h 5 .1 . 5 is s o m e h o w t h a t e v id e n c e w a s c r e a te d o r f a b r ic a t e d f o r a n u l t e r io r m o t iv e . Wa s t h a t e v e r p u t t o y o u ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E: N o . CHAIRPERSON : 20 Th e r e f e r e n c e t o d e l e ti o n t h e r e w o u l d b e m o r e a c c u r a te t o s a y t h e y a r e a c t u a ll y ta lk in g a b o u t a f a i lu r e t o i n c lu d e i n t h e f in a l r e p o r t s o m e t h in g t h a t w a s in t h e fir s t r e p o r t a s o p p o s e d t o deleting s o m e th in g that is in a c e r ta i n doc ument, on your u n d e r s t a n d in g ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: O n m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i t w o u ld b e a c o n s c i e n c e d e c i s i o n n o t to i n c l u d e a f t e r r e v ie w a n y th i n g t h a t w a s o f n o Page 106 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 evidentiary value. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: A n d i f s o m e h o w n o n - e v i d e n ti a r y v a l u e q u o t a t i o n s c r e p t in i n it i a ll y t h e r e w a s a c o n s c i e n c e d e c i s i o n n o t t o in c l u d e th e m , b u t in a n y e v e n t w h a t e v e r w a s t h e r e i n t h e f ir s t r e p o r t w a s k n o w n b e c a u s e it w a s i n c lu d e d w i t h t h e p a c k a g e g i v e n t o M i n is t e r N h l e k o a n d t h e r e w a s n o a t te m p t t o h id e a n y t h in g o r r e m o v e i t f o r u l t e r i o r m o t iv e s o r a n y th in g li k e t h a t . I c a n n o t t a k e i t m u c h f u r t h e r t h a n th a t . 10 CHAIRPERSON : W e l l it m a y w e l l b e , i t m a y w e ll b e t h a t i f y o u h a v e g o t a h a r d c o p y o f t h e fir s t r e p o r t b u t y o u h a v e g o t t h e s a m e r e p o r t i n e l e c tr o n ic f o r m a n d in p r e p a r i n g t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t y o u u s e th e e l e c tr o n ic v e r s i o n o f th e s a m e r e p o r t a n d t h e n w h a t y o u w a n t t o i n c lu d e in t h e s e c o n d - i n t h e fi n a l r e p o r t y o u d e l e te s o m e t h i n g s a n d m a y b e t h a t is t h e d e le t io n t h e y a r e t a k i n g a b o u t t h e d e l e ti n g w h a t is i n th e e l e c tr o n ic f o r m a s o p p o s e d t o d e le t in g w h a t is in t h e h a r d c o p y. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : C h a ir t h e w a y y o u p u t i t n o w w o u ld b e a c c u r a te is w h a t I e x p e c t w o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. 20 MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I d o n o t e x p e c t th a t th e y w o u l d h a v e s t a r t e d a r e p o r t fr o m s c r a tc h . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : W h e n t h e r e a r e s o m e o b j e c ti v e f a c ts . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t d o n o t a ff e c t i t e i t h e r w a y. Page 107 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : S o th e y w o u l d h a v e c u t a n d p a s t e i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , b u t th e d i ffe r e n c e o f c o u r s e w o u l d b e t h is , t h a t a s l o n g a s t h e h a r d c o p y, i f t h e r e w a s a h a r d c o p y, I a s s u m e th e r e w a s a h a r d c o p y t h a t h a d b e e n g iv e n t o t h e N PA , i f t h a t h a r d c o p y r e m a in e d a s i t w a s it r e p r e s e n t e d w h a t h a d b e e n g iv e n a n d i t h a d n o t b e e n i n t e r fe r e d w i t h a n d w h a t y o u h a d p r o d u c e d b y c o p y i n g a n d p a s t in g if y o u w a n t w a s a n o t h e r r e p o r t , b u t y o u – t h a t h a r d c o p y s til l s t o o d a s it was before? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s , a n d j u s t t o ta k e i t fu r t h e r, to s h o w t h a t th e r e w a s n o – t h e r e w a s n ’ t a n y u n t o w a r d m o ti v e . T h e c a s e i n a ll it s f a c e ts w a s d is c u s s e d w i th M r N g w a s a n a , th e p r o ’s a n d c o n ’s a n d s u p p o s i ti o n s a n d s c e n a r i o s , a n d d i ffe r e n t a s p e c ts a n d t h e c o n s e n s u s i n d is c u s s io n w i th h i m is th a t y o u c a n n o t s u s t a i n a c a s e o n D r a m a t a n d S i b iy a , i t i s j u s t i m p o s s i b l e , a n d a ll p o s s i b le a n g le s w e r e c o v e r e d . N o w I n o te i n th e W e r k s m a n s r e p o r t , t h e y t a k e is s u e th a t M r N g w a s a n a r e fu s e d to s p e a k t o W e r k s m a n s . My v i e w is th a t M r N g w a s a n a w a s r ig h t h e w a s p r o t e c ti n g t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f t h e P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty a n d a s t o w h y M r J u ly w i ll t a k e o ff e n c e t o t h a t a n d , b a s ic a l ly s u g g e s ts 20 t h a t N g w a s a n a w a s t h e o n ly o n e w h o c o u l d d o s o m e t h in g a n d t h e r e fo r e s o m e d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s e s m u s t t a k e p la c e o n th is i s s u e , i n d ic a t e s a c le a r l a c k o f u n d e r s t a n d in g o f – a n d f o r t h e M i n is t e r o f P o li c e to s u g g e s t d e c is i o n s t a k e n b y t h e N PA a r e h i s b u s in e s s a t a ll , I d o n ’t k n o w if w e c a n b la m e t h a t o n l a c k o f k n o w l e d g e o f i m p o r t a n c e o f t h e – o f C o n s ti t u ti o n – th e C o n s t i tu t io n a n d t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l D e m o c r a c y a n d Page 108 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 in d e p e n d e n c e o f in s ti t u t i o n s o r w h e t h e r i t w a s w il f u l i g n o r i n g o f w h a t e v e r p r i n c ip le s t h a t u n d e r p in n e d t h i s d e m o c r a c y, I d o n ’ t k n o w. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : L e t ’s p e r h a p s c h a n g e t h e f o c u s o f d e b a t e t o a h ig h e r l e v e l a n d I d o n ’ t m e a n a n y ( i n d i s t i n c t) j u d g e m e n t o n t h e d e b a t e t h a t ’s t a k e n p l a c e b u t w h a t y o u d e a l w i t h n o w i s i n f a c t w h a t h a p p e n e d a s a r e s u l t o f t h e w h o l e r e n d i ti o n s a g a a n d th e m a n n e r in w h ic h i t w a s h a n d l e d , l e a v e a s i d e w h e t h e r i t w a s d e a l t w i th p r o p e r ly o r n o t y o u ’v e g i v e n y o u r e v id e n c e b u t y o u n o w te ll th e C h a ir o f t h e o u t c o m e t h e d e m is e o f c e r t a i n o ffi c i a l s , t h e c h a n g e s i n p e r s o n n e l i n t h e 10 I P I D a n d o f o t h e r c o n s e q u e n c e s th a t o c c u r r e d a s a r e s u lt o f t h e m a n n e r in w h ic h th e r e n d i ti o n s a g a w a s h a n d l e d . Fi r s tly l e t ’s g o t o p a r a g r a p h 5 0 , w h a t p o s t d id M r S e s o k o h o ld p r io r t o h is s u s p e n s io n a s a r e s u l t o f t h e r e n d i ti o n s i n v e s ti g a ti o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a n k s C h a ir, h e w a s th e N a t io n a l H e a d o f In v e s ti g a t io n s o r I w o u l d s a y C h ie f D ir e c to r o f I n v e s t i g a t io n s a n d I n f o r m a t io n Management, he was the head o f a ll i n v e s t ig a ti o n s conducted by IPID. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d h e s u p p o r t y o u r a p p lic a ti o n t o c h a ll e n g e t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a l i ty o f c e r ta i n s e c ti o n s o f t h e I P I D A c t a n d 20 o th e r s e c t io n s w h e n y o u c h a ll e n g e d y o u r s u s p e n s i o n ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Th a t ’s correct he s u p p l ie d a c o n fir m a t o r y a ffi d a v it o r s u p p o r t in g a ff i d a v it . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Right when was he suspended, d o y o u r e c a l l? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A f e w w e e k s a f t e r h e h a d s u p p l ie d t h e Page 109 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 s u p p o r t in g a ff i d a v i t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : And he was also charged with a l t e r i n g w h a t w e n o w r e f e r t o a s t h e f ir s t r e p o r t , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : N o I’v e n e v e r m e n t io n e d Mr S e s o k o i n s e c t io n s o f t h e f ir s t r e p o r t . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e ll l o o k a t li n e 5 – 4 & 5 o f paragraph 50 of your statement. Remem ber that Werksmans made a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t y o u a n d S e s o k o a s w e ll a s K h u b a b e c h a r g e d b e c a u s e t h e y d id n ’ t k n o w w h o d i d w h a t ? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : J a s o – y e s b u t th e w a y y o u p h r a s e d i t h e w a s a l t e r i n g t h e f ir s t r e p o r t w h ic h . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : No I don’t want to get caught in t h e s a m e te r m i n o l o g y a n d t o g iv e a n y v a l id it y t o t h e s u b s t a n c e o f t h e c h a r g e b u t w h a t w a s t h e n a t u r e o f th e c h a r g e a g a i n s t Mr S e s o k o ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: He was charged with altering the report. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t le a v e a s id e w h e t h e r t h a t c h a r g e w a s p r o p e r ly f o r m u la t e d in th e li g h t o f t h e e v i d e n c e a n d q u e s t io n s t h a t h a v e n o w tr a n s p ir e d i n y o u r e v id e n c e h e r e , t h a t w a s th e 20 n a t u r e o f th e c h a r g e , c o r r e c t ? I n f a c t t h e c h a r g e r e f le c te d t h e v ie w s o f W e r k s m a n s a n d th e M i n is te r i n r e la t io n t o t h e fa c t th a t t h e r e w a s o n e r e p o r t t h a t w a s th e f in a l r e p o r t a n d y o u c o u l d n ’ t a c t u a ll y d o a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h a t t h r o u g h l a te r i n v e s ti g a ti o n o r a n a ly s i s , c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h o c a m e in a s t h e a c t in g Page 110 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r u n d e r y o u r s u s p e n s i o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : It w a s M r K g a m a n y a n e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : W h a t d i d – t o y o u r k n o w le d g e w h a t d i d h e d o a s s o o n a s h e t o o k o ffi c e , y o u d e a l w i t h t h is i n paragraph 50? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: He asked for a number of cases in c l u d i n g th e P a n d a y c a s e , h e a ls o e n q u ir e d fr o m Mr S e s o k o a b o u t t h e c a s e s in v o lv in g N t l e m e z a a n d G e n e r a l M a b u l a . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : 10 A lr i g h t n o w b e f o r e y o u g o o n , t e ll t h e C h a ir b r ie f ly, t h e r e w i ll b e e v id e n c e t o f o ll o w y o u r e v i d e n c e , b u t v e r y, v e r y b r ie f ly w h a t w a s t h e P a n d a y c a s e a ll a b o u t? MR ROBERT JOH N McBRIDE: P a n d a y c a s e i n v o l v e d c o r r u p t io n r e l a ti n g t o t h e 2 0 1 0 w o r l d c u p i n w h ic h a n u m b e r o f p o l ic e o ffic e r s w e r e in a c o r r u p t r e la t io n s h ip w i t h a b u s in e s s m a n in D u r b a n a n d p o li c e o ffic e r s a ls o i n v o lv e d th e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m is s io n e r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Right now that case, was it in v e s t i g a t e d b y I P I D ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : It in i ti a l ly w a s i n v e s ti g a te d b y D P C I . . . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 20 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : General Booysen? General Booysen at some stage we r e c e i v e d a c o m p l a i n t f r o m G e n e r a l B o o y s e n a b o u t i n t e r fe r e n c e i n th e case i ts – I th in k it could have been roundabout 2014 O c t o b e r / N o v e m b e r w h e n w e r e c e iv e d a c o m p la i n t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t a n d d id I P I D th e n d o s o m e w o r k i n r e l a ti o n t h e c a s e ? Page 111 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: J a I P I D d id w o r k r i g h t u n t il th e ti m e I w a s s u s p e n d e d a n d u n t il ti m e t h a t S e s o k o a n d K h u b a w e r e s u s p e n d e d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Right you tell the Chair that y o u r s u c c e s s o r o r a c ti n g s u c c e s s o r c a ll e d f o r t h a t f il e o r c a s e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s t h a t’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e w il l d e a l w i th t h a t i n m o r e detail but was that case ever put on the Court role for prosecution? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: To m y k n o w le d g e t h e r e w a s o n e a p p e a r a n c e o n o n e o f th e c a s e s , th e r e w e r e a b o u t f o u r c a s e s r e l a t i n g 10 t o P a n d a y b u t t h e o n e w h ic h w e w o r k e d o n t o g e t h e r w it h t h e N a t io n a l P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty i n p r e p a r a ti o n f o r tr ia l w a s a v e r y s i m p l e o n e , i t w a s t h e o n e r e l a ti n g t o b r i b e r y a n d a l l a c c o m p a n y i n g e v i d e n c e w a s m a d e a v a i la b le a n d A d v o c a t e G e r r i e N e l w a s a p p o i n te d t o p r o s e c u t e t h e c a s e b y M r N g a s a n a a n d t h e c a s e w a s s u p p o s e d to b e e n r o l le d , a n d in fa ir n e s s t h e r e w a s a r e q u e s t a t s o m e s t a g e , I ’ m n o t s u r e f o r w h i c h p a r t ic u l a r c a s e t h a t th e a c c u s e d m a k e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s o n t h e b r i b e r y c a s e b e c a u s e t h e d e c is i o n w a s t h a t th e b r ib e r y c a s e is q u i t e c le a r c u t a n d i f th e b r i b e r y c a s e is s u c c e s s f u lly p r o s e c u t e d , t h e q u e s t i o n i s therefore 20 begged, what was th e b r ib e r y about which would a u t o m a ti c a ll y l e a d to t h e b ig g e r c o r r u p t io n t h a t w a s t a k i n g p l a c e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n v o lv i n g p o l ic e o ffi c i a l s ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s t h a t’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t j u s t b e f o r e w e c o n ti n u e , y o u h a v e to l d t h e C h a ir t h a t t h e c a s e fi l e w a s r e q u e s te d b y y o u r a c t i n g s u c c e s s o r Mr K g a m a n y a n e a n d t h a t , a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e , Page 112 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 t h e r e h a s n o t b e e n a s u c c e s s f u l p r o s e c u ti o n , d e s p it e y o u r v i e w th a t t h e r e i s e v i d e n c e o n f il e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e ’s b e e n n o s u c c e s s f u l p r o s e c u t io n o r t h e r e h a s b e e n n o p r o s e c u t io n a t a ll o r w h a t is t h e p o s i t io n ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: T h e r e ’s b e e n n o p r o s e c u t io n o n th e bribery case yet. C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e b r i b e r y c a s e t h e r e ’s b e e n n o p r o s e c u ti o n ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : 10 Ye s , o n o n e o f th e o th e r p r o s e c u ti o n c a s e s C h a ir, o n o n e o f th e o t h e r c o r r u p ti o n c a s e s t h e r e w a s o n e a p p e a r a n c e a t s o m e s ta g e . CHAIRPERSON : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C o u l d w e p u t i t a n o t h e r w a y, n o c a s e i n v o l v i n g th e is s u e s t o w h ic h y o u ’v e j u s t r e fe r r e d h a s b e e n fi n a l is e d . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A b s o l u te ly n o t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h e n y o u r e fe r t o o th e r I P I D in v e s t i g a t io n fi l e s t h a t w e r e r e q u e s t e d a n d y o u m e n t io n e d M a j o r G e n e r a l M a b u la a n d i s i t G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a ? 20 MR ROBERT JOHN M c B R ID E : Ye s , t h e o n e o f N t le m e z a , Mr K g a m a n y a n e t r a v e ll e d t o L i m p o p o , M r K h u b a w a s a lr e a d y s u s p e n d e d . M r K g a m a n y a n e c a l le d M r K h u b a b a c k fr o m s u s p e n s io n t o d is c u s s th e N tl e m e z a c a s e th a t I P I D h a d b e g u n i n v e s t ig a ti n g . I n r e l a t i o n to General Mabula case which involved the death of a suspect in c ustody a n d b y t h e e v id e n c e t h a t w a s a v a il a b le i t i n v o l v e d t o r t u r e . Page 113 of 170 Mr 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 K g a m a n y a n e r e q u e s t e d d o c u m e n t a ti o n a b o u t t h a t c a s e f r o m M r S e s o k o . O n my r e t u r n t o th e o ffic e . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A f t e r y o u r s u s p e n s io n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E: A f t e r m y s u s p e n s i o n a n i m p o r t a n t p i e c e o f in f o r m a ti o n t h a t h a d b e e n g iv e n t o t h e P r o v i n c ia l H e a d o f N o r t h W e s t – o f I P I D w e n t m is s i n g c o u l d n o t b e l o c a t e d , i t w a s a r e c o r d i n g o f a c o n v e r s a ti o n w h e r e a s u s p e c t a d m i t t e d in v o lv e m e n t i n t h e t o r t u r e w h ic h le d t o th e d e a t h o f a s u s p e c t w h ic h , a g a i n s t t h e b a c k g r o u n d o f th e s e c h a n g e s i t w a s v e r y s tr a n g e . F o r t u n a t e ly a c o p y w a s k e p t o f i t s o t h e 10 c a s e w a s t h e n r e s u s c i t a te d u p o n m y r e tu r n a n d a l l t h e e v i d e n c e a n d d o c k e ts a n d e v i d e n c e p u t to g e th e r – b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s s o m e t r ic k i n t h e w a y t h e c a s e w a s r e p o r t e d a ls o . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h o w a s t h e o ffic i a l w i t h i n I P I D w h o w a s d e a l i n g w i t h a l l t h e s e c a s e s , P a n d a y, N t le m e z a , M a b u l a a n d t h e lik e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : B e f o r e h i s s u s p e n s i o n it w a s M r S e s o k o u l ti m a t e ly th a t w o u l d b e in c h a r g e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : R i g h t , w e g e t n o w a t n o ti o n a ll y t o p a r a g r a p h 5 1 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t b u t I d o n ’ t w a n t to d e a l w i t h i t n o w, I 20 n e e d t o i n te r v e n e C h a ir t o d e a l w i th a m a t t e r th a t h a s r e c e i v e d c o n s i d e r a b l e p u b li c i ty a n d to c l a r i fy fr o m o u r p o i n t o f v i e w w h a t w e u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t io n to b e n o tw i th s ta n d in g w h a t h a s a p p e a r e d i n th e p r e s s . To t a k e a s te p b a c k M r M c Br i d e m a d e c e r t a i n c o m m e n t s in h is s t a te m e n t in r e g a r d t o t h e f in d i n g s o f y o u r y o u n g e r b r o t h e r A d v o c a te M x o li s i Z o n d o in r e l a ti o n t o t h e d is c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g o f M r S e s o k o , n o t Page 114 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 h is d i s c ip li n a r y h e a r in g M r S e s o k o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n h is s ta t e m e n t M r M c Br id e e x p r e s s e s a v e r y n a r r o w o p i n i o n o f w h a t o c c u r r e d a t th a t e n q u i r y i n r e l a ti o n t o s ic k n o t e s s u b m i t t e d to A d v o c a t e Z o n d o o n M r S e s o k o ’s b e h a l f a n d w h e t h e r t h e s e s h o u ld o r s h o u ld n ’ t b e t a k e n in t o a c c o u n t, t h e r e ’s a n o p i n i o n e x p r e s s e d . W h e n t h is m a t t e r w a s r a i s e d b e f o r e y o u a t th e b e g i n n i n g i t w a s s tr e s s e d t o y o u t h a t t h e r e ’s a r e c o r d , t h a t th e r e c o r d is c o m p le t e a n d c o m p r e h e n s iv e , t h e r e c o r d i n v o lv e s , n o t M r 10 M c Br i d e b u t a n o t h e r w i tn e s s a n d a n y a s s e s s m e n t o f t h a t r e c o r d c a n , i n d u e c o u r s e b e m a d e b y w h o m e v e r m i g h t b e a p p r o p r i a t e . I n r e l a ti o n t o t h o s e c ir c u m s t a n c e s , r e a lly w h a t Mr M c Br i d e c a n o r c a n n o t s a y a m o u n ts t o n o m o r e th a n a n o p in i o n a n d d o e s n ’ t r e a lly c o u n t f o r a n y th in g o t h e r th a n Mr M c B r i d e ’s v i e w. Pr e s e n t e d to y o u w a s a c o m p r e h e n s iv e p ie c e o f r e s e a r c h a n d d o c u m e n t a ti o n p r e p a r e d o n b e h a l f o f th e l e g a l t e a m . T h a t w a s t h e o n l y w r i t t e n s u b mi s s io n y o u h a d b e f o r e y o u , i t w a s p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u a n d n e v e r d e tr a c t e d fr o m b e c a u s e I r e c a l l s a y i n g a t t h e v e r y e n d , t h a t w h e n t h is m a t t e r c o m e s to b e c o n s i d e r e d f i n a ll y, w e w il l d e a l w i t h t h e is s u e s a n d t h e r e p o r t p r e s e n t e d 20 t o y o u o r th e s u b m is s i o n s p r e s e n t e d to y o u r a t h e r w o u ld r e m a i n in t a c t a n d r e l e v a n t a n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t y o u a c c e p te d th a t a t s o m e s t a t e y o u w o u ld r e c o n s id e r o r c o n s i d e r a ll t h o s e e l e m e n ts in t h a t r e p o r t o r t h o s e s u b m is s io n s p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u o n b e h a l f o f th e l e g a l t e a m . N o w I – i n o r d e r t o a ll o w th e e v id e n c e t o p r o c e e d I i n te r v e n e t o s a y, w e l l i t ’s a n o p i n i o n i t’s n o m o r e th a n a n o p i n io n y o u c o u ld h e a r Page 115 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 t h a t a n d in d u e c o u r s e y o u c o u ld m a k e a d e c is io n in r e g a r d to y o u r a tt i tu d e t o w a r d s t h i s a n d o th e r e v i d e n c e a n d t h a t w a s w h e r e i t r e s t e d . I m i g h t h a v e s a id I w a s s p e a k in g o n b e h a l f o f t h e le g a l te a m , I d i d s a y t h a t a l l t h e v i e w s w e r e n o t . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n ’ t t h in k y o u s a id y o u w e r e s p e a k i n g o n b e h a lf o f t h e l e g a l t e a m , I t h i n k y o u s a id t h e v i e w s e x p r e s s e d i n t h e d o c u m e n t that you put up were not unanimous. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s th a t’s w h a t I s a i d a n d I to o k it u p o n m y s e lf t o o ffe r a w a y th r o u g h , I d id n ’ t p u r p o r t t o c h a n g e w h a t 10 t h e l e g a l te a m h a d s a i d , i n f a c t i t r e m a in e d ( i n d is t in c t ) b e fo r e y o u a n d I t h i n k y o u u n d e r s to o d i t .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i t r e m a i n s b e f o r e m e i t ’s a v a il a b l e t o m e t o r e a d , I h a v e – b e fo r e t h a t I h a d a l o o k a t l e a s t p a r ts o f i t a n d y o u d id s a y i t ’s not unanimous and you did – whatever you s a id is on r e c o r d .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s b u t I d i d o ff e r a w a y f o r w a r d f o r w h ic h I t a k e f u l l r e s p o n s ib il i ty a n d t h a t w a s b e c a u s e o f th e nature and extent of the e v id e n c e because t h e r e ’s a full and c o m p r e h e n s iv e r e c o r d i t’s n o t n e c e s s a r y f o r y o u t o m a k e a n y f i n a l 20 d e c is i o n n o w, y o u c a n m a k e a d e c is io n l a t e r a n d t o h e a r th e o p i n i o n o f a n in d iv i d u a l w h o w a s n o t d i r e c tly in v o lv e d i n a f a c tu a l b a s is w o u l d n o t d e tr a c t fr o m a n y d e c i s i o n t h a t y o u m i g h t m a k e in t h e fu t u r e b u t th e s i tu a ti o n h a s n o w b e c o m e m o r e c o m p l ic a t e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : O k a y m a y b e b e fo r e y o u t e ll u s a b o u t th e s i t u a t io n b e c o m i n g m o r e c o m p li c a t e d I m u s t j u s t r e p e a t t h a t w h a t I s a id w a s , Page 116 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 m a y b e l e t’s n o t h a v e a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e w e m u s t a d j o u r n M r M c Br id e ’s evidence becaus e we – the Commission doesn’t have a lot of time. Let m e h e a r h is e v i d e n c e b u t I s ti ll in d ic a te t h a t p r o b a b l y th e w a y fo r w a r d s h o u l d in c l u d e t h a t s u b m is s i o n s b e in v i t e d fr o m l e g a l p r o f e s s i o n a l b o d ie s , I m a y h a v e m e n t io n e d o n e o r t w o o th e r p e o p l e o r in s t i t u t io n s t o m a k e s u b m is s i o n s b e fo r e a n y d e c is io n c a n b e m a d e a s t o w h a t s h o u l d h a p p e n w it h r e g a r d to a n y e v i d e n c e t h a t m i g h t r e l a te t o m y y o u n g e r b r o t h e r a n d m y p la n is s t il l t h a t u n l e s s s o m e th in g t h a t – u n l e s s s o m e t h i n g e ls e h a p p e n s m y p l a n is s ti ll t h a t I s h o u l d i n v i te c e r t a in le g a l 10 p r o f e s s i o n a l b o d i e s , I h a v e n ’ t f i n a li s e d i n m y o w n m i n d w h o e ls e t o m a k e s u b m is s i o n s s o t h a t a t a c e r t a in s t a g e I c a n t h e n , i f n e e d b e , m a k e a d e c i s i o n w h e th e r – w h a t s h o u l d b e d o n e , y o u k n o w, th e – i t ’s a n u n u s u a l s i t u a t i o n b e c a u s e i f I w a s s i t ti n g in C o u r t a s a J u d g e i t m a y h a v e b e e n v e r y e a s y b u t I ’ m s it t in g h e r e a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d to m a k e t h i n g s m o r e c o m p lic a t e d t h e C o m m is s i o n w a s n ’ t a p p o in t e d in t h e u s u a l w a y i n w h ic h C o m m i s s io n s a r e a p p o i n t e d . T h e r e w a s a r e m e d i a l a c t i o n f r o m t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r w h o p r e s c r ib e d – m a d e c e r t a i n p r e s c r i p ti o n s , t h e r e w a s a H i g h C o u r t d e c is i o n w h ic h g a v e e ffe c t to th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r s r e m e d i a l a c t io n a s to th e s e l e c ti o n o f t h e 20 person to be – to Chair the Commission. S o a l l o f t h o s e th i n g s w il l n e e d t o b e l o o k e d a t s o t h a t i f I a m t h e o n e w h o m u s t m a k e th e d e c is i o n a s to w h a t s h o u l d h a p p e n to i t I m a k e i t w it h th e b e n e f i t o f s u b m is s io n s fr o m d i ffe r e n t b o d i e s . I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r i t’s a m a t t e r w h ic h – I t h in k t h e r e w a s r e f e r e n c e t o a p o s s i b il it y t o – I th in k i t ’s i n t h e m e m o o r n o t e t h a t w a s w r i t t e n t h a t w a s – th a t w e ta lk e d a b o u t Page 117 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 e a r l ie r, th e r e w a s r e f e r e n c e t o t h e p o s s ib i li ty t h a t m a y b e th e P r e s i d e n t c o u l d b e a s k e d t o a m e n d t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Or the regulations. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o r t h e r e g u l a ti o n s s o t h e r e a r e a l l k i n d s o f th i n g s a n d c e r ta i n ly i f I ’ m th e o n e t h a t m u s t m a k e t h e d e c i s i o n I w o u l d li k e th e b e n e fi t o f d i ffe r e n t s u b m is s i o n s fr o m p r o f e s s i o n a l b o d ie s b u t I c e r t a i n l y a c c e p t t h a t t h e n o t e y o u p u t u p is t h e r e , i t ’s a v a il a b l e t o m e to r e a d i n f u ll – j a . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 S o C h a i r b e f o r e w e g e t to t h e c o m p lic a ti o n , in t h e li g h t o f t h e v a r i o u s p r e s s r e p o r ts , a ll o f w h i c h I’v e n o t r e a d a n d m a y n o t b e a c c u r a te , j u s t to s u m m a r i s e M c B r i d e o r i g in a l ly in t e n d e d t o e x p r e s s a n o p i n io n o n s o m e o n e e ls e ’s d is c i p li n a r y e n q u ir y a n d t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s p r e v a i li n g in th a t e n q u ir y t h a t t h e r e i s a w r i tt e n r e c o r d u p o n w h ic h a n y i n fo r m e d j u d g m e n t c a n b e m a d e i n d u e c o u r s e , t h a t ’s n o t b e f o r e y o u s a v e p e r h a p s i n s o m e a n n e x u r e w h e r e th e r u li n g o f Mr Z o n d o e x is ts t h a t in o r d e r n o t t o d e l a y p r o c e e d in g s u n d u ly i t w a s d e c i d e d a s a n i n te r i m m e a s u r e a n d p e n d in g a n y d e c is io n y o u m a k e , a ft e r h e a r in g r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s , n o t o n ly fr o m o t h e r p r o f e s s i o n a l b o d i e s b u t a ls o fr o m t h e Pr e s i d e n t ’s o ffic e y o u m e n ti o n e d , y o u w i ll m a k e a 20 fi n a l d e c i s i o n a n d th a t i t w o u l d n o t a ffe c t t h a t p r o c e s s i f y o u m e r e ly h a d r e fe r e n c e o r h e a r d t h e o p in i o n i n r e la t io n t o t h o s e f a c t s o f M r M c B r i d e b u t t h e s i tu a ti o n h a s n o w – o h a n d a ls o t h e s u b m is s i o n s o f th e l e g a l t e a m r e m a i n b e f o r e y o u fo r y o u r c o n s i d e r a t i o n , u n a l t e r e d a n d th o s e w e r e t h e o n ly w r i t t e n s u b m is s io n s b e f o r e y o u . Th e s it u a ti o n h a s b e c o m e a li t tl e b i t m o r e c o m p l e x n o w b e c a u s e w e w e r e in f o r m e d th is Page 118 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 w e e k e n d , C h a ir, th a t M r B o o y s e n a ls o w is h e s t o m a k e r e fe r e n c e t o a n e n q u ir y i n w h ic h Mr Z o n d o p r e s i d e d o r d i d n ’ t – m a y n o t h a v e c o n ti n u e d I d o n ’ t k n o w th e f u l l f a c ts a n d t h e e x te n t t o w h ic h t h e e n q u ir y c o n ti n u e d o r d i d n ’ t c o n ti n u e b u t i t i n v o l v e d G e n e r a l B o o y s e n h i m s e l f s o i t’s d ir e c t a n d Mr S e s o k o m a y c o m e t o g iv e e v id e n c e , a g a i n h e w il l g iv e e v i d e n c e w h ic h i s d ir e c t a s o p p o s e d t o o p in i o n . In t h a t – i n t h e l ig h t o f t h a t , a n d I’ v e d is c u s s e d it w i th M r M c B r i d e p e r h a p s e v e r y t h i n g , o p i n i o n a n d e v e r y t h i n g e ls e s h o u ld b e p e n d e d , p e n d i n g a f u ll c o n s i d e r a t io n o f a ll the evidence together to see what to do because I would imagine that 10 t h e e v id e n c e o f Mr S e s o k o , w h i c h is d i r e c t a n d t h e e v i d e n c e o f G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w h ic h is a ls o d i r e c t w i ll b e d e c i s iv e o f t h is i s s u e r a t h e r t h a n w h a t M r M c B r i d e mi g h t o r m i g h t n o t h a v e t o s a y a n d M r Mc B r id e i s q u i te w i ll in g , I u n d e r s t a n d , a n d h e c a n c o n fir m i t, t o p e n d h is e v i d e n c e in r e l a ti o n t o p a r a g r a p h 5 1 o f h is s t a te m e n t u n ti l fu r t h e r n o ti c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o u ld b e i n c l i n e d t o s a y l e t’s g e t m o r e in f o r m a t io n i f G e n e r a l B o o y s e n h a s s o m e t h i n g t o s a y a s w e l l , le t ’s h e a r w h a t h e h a s t o s a y b e f o r e a n y d e c is i o n c a n b e m a d e a n d i f M c B r i d e is h a p p y t o p e n d t h a t p a r t o f h i s e v id e n c e t h e r e is n o p r o b l e m , Mr Mc B r i d e d o y o u c o n fir m , w h a t ’s y o u r p o s i ti o n ? 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s s ir I h a v e n o o b j e c ti o n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : So just for clarity sake because o n e d o e s n ’ t k n o w h o w t h i s w i ll b e u n d e r s t o o d b y t h e m e d i a t h e r e w a s li t tl e p r e ju d i c e t o t h e o v e r a l l p r o c e s s s t il l t o b e c o n s id e r e d b y y o u r s e l f b y h e a r i n g t h e o p in io n in d ir e c tly o f M r M c B r i d e . W e h a v e s u b s e q u e n t ly le a r n t t h a t t h e r e a r e a t l e a s t t w o p i e c e s o f d i r e c t e v i d e n c e th a t d e a l Page 119 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 w i t h th e s a m e m a t t e r w h ic h r e a lly o v e r t a k e s t h e c o n s i d e r a t io n o f M r M c Br i d e a n d i n r e l a ti o n to t h a t i t r e q u i r e s f u l l a n d c o m p r e h e n s iv e c o n s i d e r a ti o n f o r a d e c is io n b y y o u r s e l f o n t h e s tr e n g th o f , a m o n g s t o th e r t h i n g s , t h e s u b m is s i o n t h e l e g a l t e a m s h a v e m a d e t o y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o t h a t ’s f in e I th i n k t h a t ’s – th a t is t h e w a y t o g o b e c a u s e a s s u m e t h a t th e d e c i s i o n w a s t o s a y, w e l l i f o n e l o o k s a t w h a t M r M c B r i d e h a s to s a y a b o u t M r M x o li s i Zo n d o i n r e g a r d t o M r S e s e k o ’s d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r in g if o n e w e r e t o s a y, w h e n o n e h a s r e g a r d t o th e n a t u r e o f w h a t h e h a s to s a y i n t h e s c h e m e o f e v e r y t h in g I s h o u l d h e a r 10 it t h e n t h e r e w o u ld b e a p r o b l e m , if l a t e r o n , G e n e r a l B o o y s e n o r s o m e b o d y e l s e c o m e s u p w it h s o m e t h i n g e ls e s o i t m ig h t b e b e t te r t o s a y – b e c a u s e i f i n t h e e n d t h e d e c is i o n w o u ld b e in t h e li g h t o f w h a t G e n e r a l B o o y s e n m a y s a y i n t h e l ig h t o f w h a t s o m e o n e e l s e m a y s a y, I s h o u l d n o t h e a r i t t h e n I m a y a s w e ll n o t h e a r th e p a r t o f i t t h a t c o m e s fr o m Mr Mc B r id e . S o it ’s m o r e c o n v e n i e n t t o s a y, l e t s e e e x a c tl y w h a t ’s in – w h a t e v e r y w it n e s s c o m e s u p w i t h . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a n k y o u . B u t th e r e i s n o e v i d e n c e th a t s h o u l d b e h e a r d t h a t w i ll n o t b e h e a r d . I t is a q u e s t i o n o f w h o m u s t h e a r i t. I f it is 20 e v i d e n c e t h a t s h o u l d b e h e a r d i t s h o u ld b e h e a r d . I t i s a q u e s ti o n o f who should… A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t w il l in d e e d b e h e a r d i n t h e form manner and by the person … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t u l ti m a t e l y h a s d e c i d e d … Page 120 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A t l e a s t u n d e r y o u r in i ti a l d ir e c t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , ja . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : M a y b e t h a t th e p e r s o n w h o fi n a l ly h e a r s i t is a p p o i n t e d b y s o m e o n e e l s e . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I f t h a t is p o s s i b le a t a ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t i s a c o m p l e x … CHAIRPERSON : It is a very complex… A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M a t t e r. CHAIRPERSON : M a t t e r I t h i n k I h a v e h a d ti m e t o r e f le c t o n i t . I t i s c o m p le x b e c a u s e i n t e r m s o f – n o t j u s t in t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e in te r ms o f a h ig h c o u r t d e c is io n g iv i n g e ff e c t t o t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r ’s r e m e d i a l a c ti o n e v i d e n c e r e la t in g t o m a t te r s th a t f a ll u n d e r t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e a s t h e y s t a n d th e y n e e d t o b e h e a r d b y th is c o m m i s s i o n . Is t h e q u e s t io n i f n o w i t i s s o m e b o d y is it s ti ll b e i n g h e a r d b y th is c o m m i s s io n ? 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : I f i t is b e in g h e a r d b y s o m e b o d y e ls e . But at the s a m e ti m e t h e r e m a y b e s i t u a t io n s w h e r e w h a t – h o w e v e r y o u l o o k a t i t I s h o u l d n o t h e a r c e r ta in e v i d e n c e . I d o n o t k n o w. I k n o w t h a t i n th e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l c o u r t w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h m a t te r s e v e n w h e r e a c o ll e a g u e o f o u r s i s i n v o l v e d a n d w e d e a l w i t h th e m a n d w e d e a l w it h t h e m i n t h e Page 121 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 b e s t w a y w e c a n . B u t i t i s n o t a l w a y s th e b e s t s it u a ti o n . S o – s o it is n o t a n e a s y m a t t e r. I t i s a m a t t e r th a t n e e d s p r o p e r s u b m is s i o n s t o b e made. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : S o t h a t i n t h e e n d t h e r e c a n b e n o b o d y s u g g e s ti n g t h a t a n y e v i d e n c e t h a t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n e v a l u a te d i n a c e r ta i n w a y w a s n o t e v a l u a te d in a c e r t a i n w a y, i n a p r o p e r w a y o r w a s – e v id e n c e w a s h e a r d b y s o m e b o d y w h o s h o u ld n o t h a v e h e a r d i t . S o w e n e e d t o l o o k a t e v e r y t h in g p r o p e r l y. 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : To b e fa ir t o a ll c o n c e r n e d p a r t ic u l a r ly y o u r s e l f C h a ir to h a v e h e a r d t h e c o n te n ts o f p a r a g r a p h 5 1 t h e o p i n io n t h e r e w o u l d n o t h a v e a ff e c t e d a n y fi n a l d e c is i o n t h a t y o u m i g h t h a v e m a d e . Th e s i tu a ti o n is n o w d i ff e r e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h e r e t h e r e i s f u r t h e r d ir e c t evidence. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t r e q u i r e s a fr e s h a p p r o a c h to the problem. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , n o t h a t i s f i n e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : And for that purpose you have t h e s u b m is s i o n s o f th e l e g a l te a m . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d a n y fu r t h e r s u b m i s s i o n s t h a t t h e le g a l t e a m m i g h t m a k e . Page 122 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P l u s s u b m is s i o n s o f o u ts i d e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B o d ie s in c l u d i n g t h e P r e s id e n c y. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. Okay thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 5 2 M r M c Br id e y o u s a y t h a t S e s o k o a l s o f a c e d c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s t o g e th e r w i th M r K h u b a and yourself? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : F o r fr a u d a n d d e f e a ti n g t h e e n d s o f j u s tic e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u h a v e a lr e a d y s a id th a t t h o s e c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s w e r e w it h d r a w n o n t h e 1 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 6 ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u th e n r e t u r n e d t o o ff ic e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t h a p p e n e d to M r S e s o k o ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : M r S e s o k o h a d ta k e n t h e m a t t e r t o t h e 20 L a b o u r C o u r t o r t h e B a r g a i n i n g C o u n c il I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r p r e c i s e ly. But in the process and in the absence of a handover report by R a m o n y a n e t h e r e a s o n s g iv e n f o r t h e – h i s d is m is s a l a n d a d e c is i o n t o d is c i p l i n e h i m w e r e n o t a v a i la b le . In a d d i ti o n t o th a t t h e r e w a s n o b a s is f o r I P I D a s a n o r g a n i s a t io n n e v e r m i n d m y s e l f t o a c t u a l ly o p p o s e a n y a c ti o n t h a t S e s o k o s o u g h t fo r r e d r e s s o n h is s i tu a ti o n . A s s u c h a Page 123 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 d e p a r t m e n t h a d t o s e t tl e w it h M r S e s o k o ’s l e g a l te a m w h ic h r e s u l t e d i n h is r e t u r n t o I P I D . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . Yo u s a y a t p a r a g r a p h 5 3 M r M c Br id e o n p a g e 11 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t 11 o f E x h i b i t Ya t h a t y o u m a d e a c e r ta in d is c o v e r y o r o b s e r v a ti o n o n y o u r r e t u r n t o o ff ic e i n r e l a ti o n t o th e s t a ti s t ic a l p e r f o r m a n c e o f I P I D a s i t h a d b e e n r e p o r t e d i n y o u r a b s e n c e . W h a t is y o u r e v i d e n c e i n t h a t r e g a r d ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : Ye s i t w a s b r o u g h t to m y a t te n ti o n b y M r S e s o k o a n d t h e te a m th a t – a n d t h a t t h e A u d i to r G e n e r a l h a d a ls o 10 q u e r ie d a n u m b e r o f i s s u e s r e l a ti n g t o t h e w a y i n w h ic h c a s e s w e r e c lo s e d . O n e p a r tic u la r w h i c h is q u it e s t r a n g e a n d s t a r k w a s a c a s e o f a c o m p la i n t t h a t w a s l a i d in m y a b s e n c e a g a in s t G e n e r a l – G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e a n d a t s o m e s t a g e a d u p l ic a te o f t h e s a m e c a s e m a d e u n d e r a d i ff e r e n t c a s e n u m b e r i n t h e I P I D c a s e c o n tr o l s y s t e m w a s m a d e a n d s u b s e q u e n t ly b o t h c a s e s w e r e c l o s e d b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e d u p li c a t e s o f e a c h o th e r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s j u s t to il lu s tr a t e t h e p o i n t . Yo u h a v e o n e c a s e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D o c k e t i n v e s t ig a ti n g a p a r t ic u l a r p o li c e o ffi c i a l ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u h a v e a d u p l ic a t e f il e i m p l ic a t i n g t h e s a m e p e r s o n o n t h e s a m e i n v e s ti g a ti o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . Page 124 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o t h e t w o a r e i n e s s e n c e c o p ie s of each other? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e o n e i s w i th d r a w n b e c a u s e it h a s a d u p lic a t e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h e o th e r is a ls o w i th d r a w n b e c a u s e i t h a d a d u p l ic a t e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o b o t h d is a p p e a r ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : S o i n t h e I P I D ’s s y s t e m b o t h c a s e s a r e c lo s e d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . B u t to – y o u d e a l w i t h t h a t la t e r in y o u r e v id e n c e . To d e a l w i t h t h e g e n e r a l p o i n t y o u m a k e in p a r a g r a p h 5 3 h o w w a s th e p e r f o r m a n c e o f I P I D i n y o u r a b s e n c e r e p o r t e d i n c l u d i n g t o P a r li a m e n t? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : T h a n k s C h a ir. For us it was reported t h a t I P I D ’s p e r f o r m a n c e h a d g o n e u p s i n c e th e a p p o i n t m e n t – w e l l s i n c e t h e s u s p e n s i o n o f t h e E x e c u tiv e D ir e c t o r a n d t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f a n 20 A c ti n g E x e c u tiv e D ir e c t o r a n d … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Wa s th is a c c u r a te ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : No, no. It was – it was not accurate a n d i t w a s u n tr u e a n d t h e m a n i p u la t io n o f s t a ti s tic s a n d t h e c l o s in g o f c a s e s u n d e r a p r o v is i o n w h ic h is c a ll e d S p e c ia l C l o s u r e is w h a t w a s u til is e d t o c o m e to t h a t c o n c l u s io n . I t is i m p o r t a n t t o a d d t h a t th e r e Page 125 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 w a s a c r i m i n a l c a s e o p e n e d u p o n th is m a tt e r a n d d is c i p l in a r ie s w h ic h r e s u l t e d i n o n e p e r s o n b e i n g d is m is s e d a n d a n o th e r v e r y s e n i o r p e r s o n w h o w a s r e s p o n s ib l e r e s i g n i n g fr o m I P I D . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr ig h t . S o in s u m m a r y in y o u r a b s e n c e a ft e r t h e c h a n g e o f le a d e r s h i p . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n I P I D i t w a s r e p o r t e d y o u s a y f a ls e l y t h a t t h e p e r fo r m a n c e h a d i m p r o v e d . T h is w a s a d e v ic e t h a t w a s u s e d o r t h e r e w a s a d e v i c e u s e d t o m a n i p u l a te s t a ti s tic s t o a c h i e v e a n 10 a p p a r e n t r e s u l t w h ic h w a s n o t a n a c c u r a t e r e s u l t ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Ye s . A n d t h e p r a c t ic e w a s q u i te w i d e s p r e a d a c r o s s p r o v i n c e s a n d a n i n s tr u c t io n h a d b e e n g iv e n a t s o m e s t a g e t h e e x a c t n a t u r e o f t h e in s tr u c t io n M r S e s o k o c o u ld a t te s t t o b u t i t a l s o o c c u r r e d w i th i n fo r e x a m p l e K Z N I a m a w a r e o f a n d G a u t e n g ju s t fr o m t h e r e p o r ts t h a t w e r e c o m i n g in a n d fr o m m e m o r y. So it was not an i solated case it was a number of cases on Special Closure. I n f a c t i t – t h a t l o o p h o l e in d e fi n i ti o n w e t h e n f o r c e d t h e f o ll o w i n g f in a n c ia l y e a r t o c h a n g e th e d e fi n i t io n o f w h a t a c o m p le t e d c a s e is a n d h o w i t is h a n d le d . If I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t t h a t a l s o r e s u l t e d 20 in a n e w s ta n d a r d o p e r a ti n g p r o c e d u r e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : W h ic h w a s t h e n s ig n e d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : h a p p e n e d is t h a t t h e l e a d e r s h ip O k a y. In summary what has of a Law Enforcement Agency in s t i tu t io n o r a g o v e r n m e n t i n s t it u ti o n is r e m o v e d a n d r e p la c e d b y o t h e r Page 126 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 le a d e r s h i p . I t i s t h e n r e p o r te d t h a t u n d e r th e n e w le a d e r s h i p p e r f o r m a n c e h a s i m p r o v e d . Is th is o c c u r r e n c e u n i q u e to I P I D a t a r o u n d t h e ti m e ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: N o C h a ir i n th e p e r i o d – G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a i n d i c a t e d t h a t p e r f o r m a n c e o f D P C I h a d g o n e u p a f te r G e n e r a l D r a m a t ’s r e m o v a l a n d h e t o t h a t p o s i t io n – h e h a d b e e n a p p o i n t e d t o th a t p o s i t io n . S i m il a r ly i n S A R S t h e t h e n C o m m i s s i o n e r M o y a n e m a d e t h e s a m e c o m m e n t t h a t p e r fo r m a n c e a n d c o l l e c ti o n in SARS has gone up. 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A l r ig h t . T h e C h a i r w i ll i n d u e c o u r s e c o n s i d e r a l l e v id e n c e p l a c e d b e fo r e h i m a n d m a k e a fi n d i n g in r e l a ti o n t o w h e t h e r t h e s e a r e c o i n c id e n c e s o r w h e t h e r th e r e w a s a d e s i g n b e h in d t h e m . L e t u s g o o n w i t h y o u r s t a te m e n t . Te ll th e C h a ir please what the fate of Mr Khuba was? Was he also suspended on the 21 May 2015? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : That is correct. Mr K h u b a w a s s u s p e n d e d a n d t h e n a s w e h a v e c o v e r e d a lr e a d y M r K h u b a w a s – Mr K h u b a d i d a p l e a b a r g a i n w i th t h e d e p a r t m e n t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B e f o r e y o u g o t h e r e w e w il l d e a l 20 w i t h t h a t i n d u e c o u r s e in t h e f o l lo w in g p a r a g r a p h . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : s a y in p a r a g r a p h 5 5 i f w e m a y ? B u t j u s t to c o m p l e t e w h a t y o u T h e r e a s o n s f o r h is s u s p e n s io n I u n d e r s t a n d w e r e t h e s a m e a s t h e r e a s o n s fo r y o u r s u s p e n s i o n a n d M r S e s o k o ’s s u s p e n s i o n ? Page 127 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D e a li n g s w i th t h e R e n d i t io n Report? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d h e a l s o s u b m it a n a ffi d a v i t on your behalf and your court challenge to your suspension? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : In d e e d h e d i d y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 5 6 y o u r e f e r t o c e r t a in e v e n t s t h a t t o o k p l a c e b e fo r e h i s d is m i s s a l w h ic h f o ll o w e d . 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Te l l t h e C h a ir a b o u t t h a t p l e a s e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : J a s o s o m e o f t h e s tu ff C h a ir I h a d c o v e r e d e a r l i e r w h e n d is c u s s in g m y e n g a g e m e n t w i t h W e r k s m a n s a n d t h a t I h a d r a is e d s o m e o f t h e s e c o n c e r n s . B u t a f t e r s ix m o n t h s o f s u s p e n s i o n Mr K h u b a r e a c h e d a p l e a b a r g a in a g r e e m e n t t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t. H e w o u ld a d m i t n o n s p e c i fi c w r o n g d o i n g o n a W e d n e s d a y a n d t h e f o ll o w i n g M o n d a y h e w o u l d b e b a c k a t w o r k . K h u b a e x p la i n s t h a t i n o n e o f h is a ffi d a v i ts s o m e w h e r e a s t o w h a t p r e s s u r e w e r e o n h i m and why he needed to come to that – to that plea bargain. In any event 20 h e d i d t h e p l e a b a r g a i n , h e w a s t o l d t o r e p o r t b a c k f o r d u ty o n M o n d a y. H e t h e n m a d e a n a ffi d a v i t o n t h e Fr id a y. I n t h a t a ffi d a v i t h e c o v e r s h i s p l e a b a r g a in , h is r e a s o n s a n d th a t i n h is a ffi d a v i t h e d i d n o t in f e r a n y g u il t o r i m p li c a t io n t o M c B r i d e a n d S e s o k o . H e th e n a r r i v e s a t w o r k o n M o n d a y. O n M o n d a y h e g e ts a c a l l fr o m M r R a m a n y a n e t o t e l l h i m t h a t h e s h o u ld g iv e h i m w i t h i n 2 4 h o u r s r e a s o n s w h y h e s h o u l d n o t b e Page 128 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 d is m i s s e d b e c a u s e h i s p l e a b a r g a i n a n d h i s a ff id a v i t o n t h e Fr i d a y th a t is b e t w e e n t h e W e d n e s d a y a n d t h e F r i d a y a r e – a r e i n c o n tr a d i c t i o n t o e a c h o t h e r a n d I t h in k M r K h u b a m a d e s o m e w r i t te n r e p r e s e n t a ti o n . I n a n y e v e n t Tu e s d a y m o r n in g h e w a s d i s m is s e d w i th o u t a h e a r i n g o r a n y f u r th e r e x p l a n a t io n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e e m p h a s i s in p a r a g r a p h 5 6 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t M r M c Br id e is s o m e w h a t d i ff e r e n t w h e r e y o u s a y h e w a s d is m i s s e d a f t e r h e r e f u s e d t o f a ls e ly i m p l i c a t e y o u r s e l f a n d S e s o k o a n d u p o n h is r e f u s a l h e w a s d is m i s s e d w i th i m m e d i a t e e ff e c t . I u n d e r s t a n d 10 y o u to s a y n o w t h a t n o th e r e a l r e a s o n f o r h i s d is m i s s a l w a s a c o n tr a d ic ti o n b e t w e e n h is c o n t e n ts o f h is p l e a b a r g a i n a n d h is s u p p o r t in g a ff i d a v i t to y o u . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : C h a ir I p u r p o s e f u l ly a n s w e r e d l ik e t h e w a y in w h i c h I d i d a n d i t is n o t d i ff e r e n t t o w h a t is h e r e a n d I w il l e x p l a i n t o y o u w h y a n d t h e n w h e n M r K h u b a c a n t e s t if y f o r h i ms e lf . W h e n h e s ig n e d t h e p l e a b a r g a i n w h a t h e w a s a g r e e i n g t h a t h e h a d d o n e w r o n g h e j u s t a d m i t te d h e w a s d o i n g w r o n g . Separate from his s ig n a tu r e o n th e p l e a b a r g a i n a s e t o f c h a r g e s w a s a d d e d o n t o h i m w i th a l le g a ti o n s o n to th e p a p e r w h i c h w a s n o t w h a t h e h a d s i g n e d a n d – a n d 20 t h is w a s d o n e in t h e p r e s e n c e o f t h e – o f th e A d v o c a t e . But Khuba s a y s h e d i d n o t – h e w a s n o t a w a r e o f th a t a t t a c h m e n t a n d th a t is w h y I a n s w e r e d b u t t h e d is c u s s i o n s w i th R a m a n y a n e w a s th a t w h y d o e s h e – d o e s h e s a y h e d i d w r o n g b u t h e d o e s n o t g o f u r t h e r in s a y i n g Mc B r i d e and Sesoko did wrong. S o i n d e e d t h e l a s t s e n t e n c e o r t h e l a s t tw o s e n te n c e s w i th i n a w e e k K h u b a w a s s u m m a r i ly d is m is s e d a f t e r h e Page 129 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 r e fu s e d t o fa ls e l y i m p li c a t e m e a n d S e s o k o . A n d it t h e n – i t f o ll o w s u p w h a t is i n 5 7 b e c a u s e 5 7 t h e n g o e s i n to d e ta il h o w t h e s a m e a tt e m p t t o g e t h i m t o f a ls e ly i m p l ic a te u s c o n t i n u e s a f te r h e is n o w d is m i s s e d a n d s i tt i n g a t h o m e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : L e t u s d e a l w i t h 5 7 t h e n . Th a n k you. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : Thanks. S o a f t e r M r K h u b a is d is m i s s e d h e w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y o ffi c e r s fr o m D P C I a n d p r o m is e d h is jo b b a c k o n c o n d it i o n h e m a d e a f a l s e s t a te m e n t s a y in g t h a t I h a d 10 f o r c e d h i m t o c h a n g e t h e R e n d i t io n R e p o r t . H e w a s v is i te d o v e r a period of a number o f days on this occasion and on the last of that – of t h o s e s e r i e s o f v i s i ts h e r e c o r d e d a p h o n e c a ll a f t e r t h e s e v i s i ts h a d t a k e n p la c e o f o n e o f t h e p e o p le w h o h a d v i s i t e d h i m . A n d th e r e c o r d i n g i s w i t h th e c o m m i s s i o n a n d s o is t h e t r a n s c r i p t o f th e recording. A n d i n t h e r e c o r d i n g K h u b a is th e n i n fo r m e d b y C o l o n e l M h lo n g o t h a t G e n e r a l M tl e m e z a w i ll n o t f o r g e t h i m if h e s a y s w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d h e w i ll b e r e s t o r e d t o h i s p o s i t i o n a n d th a t t h e g e n e r a l is h is fr i e n d a n d w i ll n o t l e a v e h i m a n d w il l n o t d u m p h i m . A n d t h e g e n e r a l i n t h e c o n te x t a c c o r d in g t o K h u b a is G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a . 20 S o th e p o in t o f 5 7 i s t h a t K h u b a is d is m is s e d u n fa ir ly i n a v e r y u n - p r o c e d u r a l w a y. W h i ls t h e is s it t in g a t h o m e h e is n o t l e f t a l o n e . T h e y c o m e t o h i m a n d o ffe r h i m h i s j o b b a c k t o b e r e s t o r e d . T h e y c o m e r i g h t i n to h i s h o u s e b u t h e m u s t d o X Y a n d Z w h ic h in c l u d e s i m p lic a ti n g i n t h e ir w o r d s a n d it is o n t h e r e c o r d i n g . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A l r i g h t b e f o r e w e g o o n w it h t h e Page 130 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 le a v e o f t h e C h a ir w e w a n t t o p la y th e r e c o r d i n g i f w e m a y ? I t i s v e r y brief. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a lr i g h t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th e r e i s a tr a n s c r ip t C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I th in k t h a t – l e t u s d o t h a t i f – ja le t u s d o t h a t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : witness. M a y I ju s t s a y a n d a s k th e T h e r e c o r d i n g is a n is o la t e d c o m m u n ic a t i o n t h a t h a p p e n e d a ft e r a s e r i e s o f c o m m u n i c a t io n s , a s e r i e s o f v is i ts y o u s a y ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : In fact according to – if Mr K h u b a d o e s g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d a c c o r d in g t o y o u r e v i d e n c e C o l o n e l M l o n g o v i s i t e d K h u b a o n a n u m b e r o f o c c a s io n s ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th is te le p h o n e c a ll i s t h e la s t o n e o f t h e l a s t i n th e s e s e r ie s o f c o m m u n i c a t io n s w h e th e r p e r s o n a l in t e r a c ti o n s o r t e l e p h o n i c ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . T h e … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e p o i n t I w is h t o m a k e i s t h a t o n e c a n o n ly u n d e r s t a n d t h e f u ll i m p o r t o f t h e tr a n s c r i p t a n d t h e 20 t e l e p h o n ic r e c o r d i n g i f o n e u n d e r s t a n d s a l l th a t p r e c e d e d i t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A b s o l u te ly C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o – a n d y o u w i ll p o i n t t h is o u t t o t h e C h a ir a ft e r h e a r i n g t h e r e c o r d i n g . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Page 131 of 170 T h e r e c o r d in g h a s b e e n 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 tr a n s c r ib e d I a m t o l d n o t i n s tr u c t e d C h a ir I a m to l d a c c u r a t e l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d i t is i n b u n d le D , E x h i b i t Y d a t p a g e 1 4 5 6 . Is t h a t r i g h t ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w e – f o r n o w y o u w il l p la y t h e r e c o r d i n g . H e y M r Pr e to r i u s ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o r r y C h a ir d o y o u h a v e a q u e s t io n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s o k a y it is ta k i n g o v e r – it is o v e r ta k i n g – i t h a s 10 b e e n o v e r t a k e n b y e v e n ts . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o r r y h o l d i t . I a m s o r r y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t i t h a s b e e n o v e r ta k e n b y e v e n ts i t is o k a y. O k a y a l r i g h t le t u s h e a r t h e r e c o r d i n g . [ L I S T E N I N G TO R E C O R D I N G ] [N O T A U D I B L E TO T Y P E ] A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I a m in f o r m e d C h a i r o f t w o t h i n g s . I a m n o t a li n g u is tic e x p e r t C h a ir b y a n y m e a n s b u t I in f o r m e d t h a t th e l a n g u a g e is u s e d a r e a c o m b i n a t io n o f S e tw a n a S e s o t h o a n d perhaps Sepedi as well and I am also… C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s o m e E n g l is h a s w e l l. 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I a m a ls o i n f o r m e d t h a t – I a m s o r r y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s o m e E n g l is h a s w e l l. S o m e E n g l is h . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o m e E n g l is h y e s . understand. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. Page 132 of 170 That I did 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir t h e – I a m a ls o i n f o r m e d t h a t t h e tr a n s c r i p t is a n a c c u r a te t r a n s c r i p t. That may be subject to d e b a te in t h e f u tu r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t p e r h a p s w e s h o u ld h a v e it o ffic i a l ly tr a n s c r i b e d . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : In d u e c o u r s e b u t f o r th e m o m e n t my in f o r m a t io n i s t h a t it is s a fe t o p r o c e e d o n t h e b a s i s o f th e 10 tr a n s l a ti o n c o n t a i n e d a t p a r a g r a p h – a t p a g e r a t h e r 1 4 5 9 i n E x h i b i t Y d . CHAIRPERSON : 1459? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l 1 4 5 8 i t b e g in s b u t t h e … CHAIRPERSON : Oh yes. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e p a r ts t h a t w e w i ll s e e k t o p l a c e o n r e c o r d a r e a t p a g e 1 4 5 9 a n d f o ll o w i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t l e t u s j u s t p l a c e t h is t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n i n i ts p r o p e r c o n te x t p l e a s e M r … CHAIRPERSON : 20 w i ll g o t o d a y. W e l l b e f o r e w e d o t h a t le t u s t a lk a b o u t h o w f a r w e I t a p p e a r s t o m e s u b j e c t t o y o u a n d M r M c B r i d e b e in g a g r e e a b l e s o t h a t w e s h o u l d t r y a n d n o t f in is h b e fo r e f iv e . W h a t i s y o u r a tt i tu d e I k n o w y o u h a v e b e e n s t a n d in g t h e r e fo r a l o n g t i m e ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir i f w e c o n ti n u e t o fi v e t h a t m a y h e l p , b u t I a m n o t s u r e in t h e e n d i t w i ll m a k e m u c h d i ff e r e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A d i ff e r e n c e . Page 133 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B e c a u s e in a n y e v e n t w e w il l n o t fi n i s h t o d a y a n d w e a r e in f o r t o m o r r o w a s w e ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o w h e t h e r w e fi n i s h a t fo u r o r fi v e . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I d o n o t t h i n k i t m a k e s a m a t e r i a l d i ff e r e n c e u l ti m a t e l y b e c a u s e a s d i s c u s s e d w i t h y o u o v e r th e lo n g adjournment. 10 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t i s u n li k e ly t h a t w e s h o u ld c a l l t h e n e x t w i tn e s s w h o is a ls o . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A w i t n e s s w h o s e e v i d e n c e is o f s o m e le n g t h . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e o n l y t h i n g o f c o u r s e is th a t i f w e a d d m o r e ti m e t o d a y w e e n h a n c e o u r p r o s p e c ts o f fi n is h i n g t o m o r r o w w i t h h i m . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m a y b e e v e n e a r li e r t h a n l a t e r. T h a t w o u l d b e t h e c a s e i f w e d o n o t a d d m o r e t i m e . Th a t i s t h e o n A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t is . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e o n ly c o n s i d e r a ti o n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ja. Page 134 of 170 T h a t is e n t ir e ly i n o r d e r 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I f w e m a y j u s t t a k e a b r e a k . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I w o u l d li k e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A t s o m e s t a g e b e tw e e n n o w a n d fi v e . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. I t h i n k a f t e r fi n a li s in g w h a t w e w il l d o b e y o n d w h e t h e r w e p r o c e e d t o fiv e t h e n w e c a n t a k e a b r e a k a n d th e n r e s u m e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 W e ll I t h o u g h t th a t w e h a d r e a c h e d “ a n a g r e e m e n t” o n t h e is s u e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : No. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e w o u l d p r o c e e d to d a y t il l fiv e [i n t e r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I h a v e n o t a s k e d M r M c Br id e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o r r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M c B r i d e w h a t i s y o u r s i tu a ti o n a b o u t p r o c e e d i n g t o 5 o ’ c lo c k ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : I w o u l d p r e fe r i f w e d i d n o t h a v e to . CHAIRPERSON : 20 O h , i f w e d i d n o t h a v e t o , b u t y o u r e m a in a v a i l a b le tomorrow? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ye s . In a d d it i o n C h a ir t h e r e is a n a s p e c t i n t e r m s o f t h e f ir s t a ff i d a v i t w h ic h I s ig n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : W h i c h w e h a v e n o t c o n s u lt e d o n y e t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 135 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: A n d w h ic h m e a n s it is u n l ik e l y e v e n t o m o r r o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E: T h a t w e w i ll fi n i s h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : A n d i t i s q u i t e i m p o r ta n t , b u t I h a v e n o t d is c u s s e d i t w i th . C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h Mr. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : M r P r e to r i u s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr P r e t o r iu s . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Advocate Pretorius yet. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : B u t I a m - i n th e b a c k o f m y m i n d i t is there. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : A n d i t h a s b e e n s u b m i t t e d la s t y e a r t o the. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Commission. 20 CHAIRPERSON: W e l l , b u t i f w e fi n is h e d a t h a l f p a s t fo u r t h e n y o u w o u ld b e f in e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : I t w o u l d n o t i n c o n v e n ie n c e m e . CHAIRPERSON : I t w o u l d n o t i n c o n v e n ie n c e y o u . O k a y. Well I am tr y i n g t o s t r ik e a b a l a n c e . F in is h a t fo u r a n d fi v e , b u t h a l f p a s t fo u r i s fi n e w i th y o u ? Page 136 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s . O k a y. N o t th a t i s fi n e . I think let us take a b r e a k n o w r a th e r t h a n la t e r. I t is a b o u t 2 6 m in u t e s t o f o u r. L e t u s s a y w e r e t u r n a t q u a r t e r t o . Is 1 0 m i n u t e s fi n e ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Q u a r t e r, 1 0 m in u t e s ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Q u a r t e r to f o u r, y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S h o u ld i t b e 1 0 to ? Q u a r t e r t o fo u r is fi n e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 1 0 t o C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON : 10 to. O k a y. W e w il l a d j o u r n a n d r e s u m e a t 1 0 t o f o u r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d M r P r e t o r i u s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r M c Br id e a t p a g e 1 4 5 8 is a t r a n s la t io n o f t h e tr a n s c r ip t , o r t h e tr a n s c r i p t o f t h e t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n th a t w e h a v e j u s t h e a r d . I d o n ’ t w a n t to g o i n t o 20 t o o m u c h d e ta il b e c a u s e Mr K h u b a c a n g iv e o r i g i n a l e v i d e n c e a s t o w h a t h a p p e n e d in t h e t e l e p h o n e c a ll . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A n d i f t h e C h a ir i s t o r e l y o n a n y e v i d e n c e fi n a l ly i t w i ll b e t h a t o f M r K h u b a . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s . Page 137 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t t h is s h o w s f o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s to p l a c e i t i n t o c o n t e x t a n d i n t o t h e c o n t e x t o f y o u r e v i d e n c e is t h a t o n t h e f a c e o f i t M r K h u b a w a s o ff e r e d o r p r o m is e d a p r o m o t i o n if h e c o o p e r a t e d ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : H e w a s p r o m is e d r e s t o r a t i o n t o t h e p o s t fr o m w h ic h h e w a s d is m is s e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : In o th e r w o r d s r e i n s ta t e m e n t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 Ye s , t h e l a t e r tr a n s c r ip t w il l d e a l w i t h t h e o ffe r o f a p r o m o ti o n , a m I c o r r e c t , o r is t h a t s o m e o n e e ls e ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Th a t is a n o t h e r p e r s o n , a n o t h e r recording. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s , a lr ig h t s o fo r t h e p r e s e n t t h e o ff e r is t h a t h is j o b w il l b e r e s t o r e d p r o v i d e d c e r t a i n a c ti o n is t a k e n by him? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t , t o s u p p o r t G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a i s fr i e n d a n d n o t to s u p p o r t h i s e n e m i e s ? 20 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h i s w il l b e p la c e d i n to f u l l c o n te x t o n c e w e h a v e e v i d e n c e o f t h e f u l l s e q u e n c e o f i n t e r a c ti o n s b e t w e e n C o l o n e l M a h la n g u o n t h e o n e h a n d a n d M r K h u b a o n t h e o t h e r. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Page 138 of 170 T h e n it ’s h e a r s a y fo r t h e 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 m o m e n t b u t Mr K h u b a w ill c o m e t o te s t i fy to t h e e x t e n t t h a t it m a y b e p u t i n d is p u te b u t w h a t d o y o u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 5 8 i n r e la t io n to a c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e tw e e n G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a a n d M r K h u b a ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : J a in d e e d M r K h u b a h a s a t t e s t e d to th is in a w a r n i n g s ta t e m e n t w h i c h h e s i g n e d a t t h e ti m e a t w h ic h w e w e r e a r r e s t e d a n d c h a r g e d o n t h e r e n d i ti o n m a tt e r. He spoke about this in t e r a c ti o n w it h G e n e r a l N t le m e z a in t h a t s t a t e m e n t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : W h a t w a s t h a t in t e r a c ti o n ? C h a ir w e ’r e o b t a in i n g t h e w a r n i n g s t a t e m e n t, w e j u s t h a v e n ’ t g o t i t y e t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : W e ll h e i n d ic a t e d t h a t a t s o m e s ta g e i n N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 3 G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a w h o w a s k n o w n t o h i m t h r o u g h t h e in t e r a c ti o n i n i n v e s ti g a ti o n s o f p o li c e a n d w h o w a s D e p u ty P r o v i n c i a l Commissioner for Limpopo had approached him and th e exact sequence a n d d is c u s s i o n s w e w o u l d h a v e t o l o o k a t t h e s t a te m e n t a g a in t o g e t i t a s a c c u r a t e ly a s p o s s ib l e b u t t h e k e y e l e m e n t w h i c h w a s t h e r e w h ic h I’ m d r a w i n g a t t e n t io n t o h e r e is t h a t N tl e m e z a w a s i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e r e n d i ti o n i n v e s ti g a ti o n i n 2 0 1 3 a l r e a d y b e f o r e I a r r i v e d a t I P I D , s o t h e r e w a s a n in t e r e s t a n d th e i n te r e s t w a s y o u ’r e h o l d in g m e b a c k i n m y 20 p r o g r e s s a n d my c a r e e r, a n d d u r in g th e s a m e p e r i o d w i t h i n a m a t t e r o f a f e w w e e k s a t l e a s t f r o m d o c u m e n t a t io n a n d e v id e n c e A d v o c a t e M o s i n g a ls o p l a c e d p r e s s u r e o n K h u b a to fi n a l is e h is r e p o r t a n d o n t h e R e n d i t io n m a t t e r, s o t h a t ’s t h e c o n t e x t i n w h ic h th is c o n v e r s a ti o n t o o k place. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e n Mr M c Br id e fr o m w h a t y o u Page 139 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 s a y a n d i t m u s t b e c o m m o n c a u s e M r K h u b a h a s s i n c e b e e n r e s to r e d to h is p o s it i o n t h r o u g h a n o r d e r o f t h e L a b o u r C o u r t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s C h a ir b e f o r e I g o t h e r e , t h e r e w a s a f o ll o w u p m e e t i n g a l m o s t a y e a r la t e r, b e t w e e n G e n e r a l N t le m e z a a n d M r K h u b a i n . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : In 2014? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : I n 2 0 1 4 , a y e a r l a te r s o I a m I P I D , t h e M i n is t e r has asked fo r a ll th e i n f o r m a t io n in N o v e m b e r, this c o n v e r s a ti o n i s ta k i n g p la c e j u s t p r i o r t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t r e c e iv in g h i s 10 le t t e r o f N o ti c e o f I n t e n ti o n t o s u s p e n d h i m fr o m M i n is te r N h le g u , s o t h a t ’s th e c o n t e x t , i t’s G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a , h e r a is e s h is in t e r e s t i n w h e r e t h e r e n d i ti o n i n v e s t ig a ti o n i s g o i n g , a y e a r la t e r G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a is a ls o a w a r e t h a t s o m e t h i n g is g o i n g to h a p p e n w i t h G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d t h a t M r K h u b a s h o u ld w a tc h t h e m e d i a . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d is i t y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t t h e c o n te x t o f t h e s t a t e m e n t y o u m a k e in p a r a g r a p h 5 8 is t h a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t’s removal w o u ld f a c il it a t e General N t le m e z a ’s career advancement? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: 20 Ye s C h a i r a n d t h e t w o i n s ta n c e s a n d t h e s u b je c t m a t te r d is c u s s e d i n b o t h c o n v e r s a ti o n s t h e r e a r e n o w a y t o d e - l in k t h e m , th e y a r e l in k e d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : J a , w e l l Mr K h u b a w i ll c o m e a n d g iv e t h a t e v i d e n c e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e n I u n d e r s ta n d M r M c Br id e Page 140 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 t h a t y o u h a v e t i m e c o n s tr a i n ts a n d th a t i f p o s s i b l e w e s h o u l d t r y a n d p r o c e e d w i t h y o u r e v i d e n c e w it h o u t d e tr a c ti n g fr o m i ts c o n t e n t t o o m u c h a s r a p id ly a s p o s s ib l e . . I was informed that du ring the most recent break, am I correct? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n p a r a g r a p h 6 0 t h r o u g h to p a r a g r a p h 7 5 . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l Mr P r e to r i u s i f th e t i m e c o n s tr a i n ts t o w h ic h y o u r e fe r a r e s u c h th a t , i f th e y a ff e c t to d a y a s w e ll a s o p p o s e d t o o t h e r 10 d a y s I w ill u n d e r s t a n d if t h e r e ’s a r e q u e s t t h a t w e s h o u l d n o t g o t o h a lf p a s t f o u r, I j u s t w a n t to c h e c k w h e t h e r a d d i n g t h a t 3 0 m i n u t e s m i g h t ju s t b e a n u n n e c e s s a r y in c o n v e n i e n c e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s I s p e a k e n t ir e l y a g a i n s t in t e r e s t C h a ir b u t i t m a y r e q u i r e u s t o g o f u r th e r to d a y b e c a u s e th e p r o b le m i s t o m o r r o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, o k a y. M r Mc B r i d e s o i s y o u r p o s i ti o n t h a t we should cover as much as we can today? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 20 Ye s , o k a y n o , t h a n k y o u . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Alright. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Fr o m p a r a g r a p h 6 0 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t o n p a g e 1 2 o f E x h i b i t YA y o u d e a l w i th w h a t y o u d is c o v e r e d o n y o u r r e tu r n in r e g a r d t o w h a t h a p p e n e d t o s e n i o r p e r s o n n e l w i t h i n I P I D , c o r r e c t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . Page 141 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : And you deal with the case of F e l ic i a N t s h a n g a s e , t h e c a s e o f N m k o z i N e t s a y a n d a , th e c a s e o f M a h o c a , t h e D ir e c t o r o f L i ti g a t io n S e r v ic e s , th e c a s e o f M o s e s D l a m i n i , t h e c a s e o f M a p a c h u , t h e D ir e c t o r Ex e c u ti v e S u p p o r t i n t h e O ff ic e o f t h e Ex e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r a n d t h e n y o u d e a l w i t h r e s tr u c t u r in g t h e c a s e o f Vi n e s h B u d u , M a r i a n n e M o r w a s w e , S u z i w e P a l e , N d u k u l e Q o n g o a n d M a m o d is h e M a lo p e , a l l t h o s e c a s e s , a r e y o u a b le to s u m m a r i s e g e n e r a l ly w h a t h a p p e n e d in t h is r e g a r d ? T h e d e ta il is th e r e i n y o u r s t a te m e n t , th e C h a ir h a s y o u r s ta t e m e n t, i t ’s o n r e c o r d , w h a t d o y o u 10 s a y a b o u t f ir s tl y t h e r e s tr u c tu r i n g o r t r a n s f e r s o r d is m is s a ls g e n e r a l ly a n d s e c o n d l y t h e p e r i o d o f ti m e o v e r w h ic h t h is to o k p l a c e a n d w h e t h e r t h is t o o k p la c e a n d w h e t h e r t h is w a s n o r m a l o r a b n o r m a l ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : I t h i n k e s s e n t ia ll y t h e a ff e c t e d o ff ic ia ls , t h a t ’s n o w in a d d i ti o n t o m y s e l f , Mr K h u b a a n d M r S e s o k o , w e r e a l l s e n i o r p e r s o n n e l in I P I D a n d w e r e i n k e y c r it ic a l p o s i ti o n s . N ts h a n g a s e w a s P r o v i n c i a l H e a d , G a u te n g a n d ju s t t o c o n tr a s t i t M r K g a m a n y a n e , w h o w a s a c ti n g a s E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r, w a s a Pr o v i n c i a l H e a d , F r e e S t a te , s o w e h a v e M r K g a m a n y a n e m o v i n g to t h e N a t i o n a l O ff ic e , M s N ts h a n g a s e I t h i n k b e i n g s u s p e n d e d o r I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h e e x a c t 20 s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts , a n d t h e n w e h a v e M a ’a m M o r w a s w e w h o i s t h e C h i e f D ir e c t o r, L e g a l S e r v i c e s w h o is t h e n m o v e d to t h e P r o v i n c ia l H e a d i n N o r t h e r n C a p e t h e H e a d o f N o r t h e r n C a p e is t h e n tr a n s f e r r e d a s H e a d o f L e g a l, t h e C F O , L in d a G u d l u N c o m o , is tr a n s f e r r e d a s H e a d of Corporate S e r v ic e s , Gauteng. The Head of S u p p ly M a n a g e m e n t , S u z iw e Q w e le , is tr a n s f e r r e d t o G a u t e n g . Page 142 of 170 Chain M a m o d is h e 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 M a lo p e , t h e H e a d o f S t a k e h o l d e r M a n a g e m e n t is tr a n s fe r r e d a s P r o v i n c ia l H e a d , M p u m a l a n g a a n d a k e y o n e is M a ’a m P a r g u , h e i s b a s ic a lly t h e i n s ti t u ti o n a l m e m o r y o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t , h e i s i n t h e o ff ic e o f t h e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r, h e i s i n e ffe c t tr a n s f e r r e d t o S t a k e h o ld e r M a n a g e m e n t . A n o t h e r k e y p e r s o n w h o is m o v e d is M r M a h o k a w h o is D ir e c t o r, L i ti g a t io n S e r v i c e s , t h a t is h e is r e s p o n s i b l e fo r p r e p a r a t io n o f a l l d o c u m e n ta t io n i n c l u d i n g t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n th a t d e a l t w i t h th e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l c h a ll e n g e , h e i s t h e i m m e d i a te s u b o r d i n a t e to M a ’ a m Morwaswe. 10 S o th e s e a r e t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s , w h e r e k e y p e o p l e a r e m o v e d , t h e r e ’s n o r a ti o n a l o r r e a s o n a b l e e x p l a n a t io n w h y it w a s d o n e , a n d n o e x p l a n a t io n w a s e v e r g iv e n e x c e p t t h a t i t w a s d o n e a n d I’ v e g o t o r d e r s fr o m m y p r i n c ip a l s , m y s u p e r v i s o r i n d e e d w h ic h is t h e M i n i s te r, a n d I am doing it. Th is is n o t u n li k e w h a t h a p p e n e d i n t h e o t h e r t w o in s t i tu t io n s t h a t I m e n ti o n e d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : W h a t e ff e c t d i d t h e s e tr a n s f e r s a n d th is r e s tr u c t u r in g h a v e o n t h e v i a b il i t y o r a b il it y t o c o n t r o l I P I D ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : I t h i n k t h e c o n te x t o f t r a n s f e r s a n d u p r o o ti n g s o m e o n e w h o i s a t h e a d o ff ic e f o r e x a m p l e t o N o r th e r n C a p e 20 b e s i d e s th e e ff e c t o n t h e f u n c ti o n a li t y o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t it i m m e d ia t e l y in s t il s fe a r, i m m e d i a t e ly i n s ti ls f e a r, o t h e r s t h e y h a v e c h il d r e n , th e y a r e s in g le p a r e n ts , t h e y m u s t l e a v e t h e ir k id s a n d g o t o a n o th e r P r o v i n c e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t h a p p e n e d to th e p e r s o n w h o w a s tr a n s f e r r e d t o t h e E a s te r n C a p e , w o u l d y o u te ll t h e C h a ir a b o u t t h a t? Page 143 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: T h a t w a s M r Vi n e s h B u d u w h o w a s a D e p u ty H e a d fo r G a u te n g , t h e Pr o v i n c i a l H e a d i n G a u t e n g a ft e r M a ’a m N ts h a n g a s e w a s s u s p e n d e d c o m e s fr o m N o r th e r n C a p e a n d h e ’s a D e p u ty a t N o r th e r n C a p e a n d h e c o m e s to b e t h e A c ti n g Pr o v in c i a l H e a d i n G a u t e n g a n d i m m e d ia t e l y y o u h a v e tw o p e o p l e o f t h e s a m e le v e l, b o t h D e p u t y H e a d s o f r e s p e c t iv e p r o v in c e s a n d n o w t h e o n e is s e n i o r t o t h e o t h e r. T h e r e ’s i m m e d i a te t e n s i o n b e t w e e n th e t w o a s t o h o w th in g s m u s t b e d o n e . To fa s t f o r w a r d a n u m b e r o f th e s p e c i a l c lo s u r e s a r e s u p e r v is e d b y t h e D e p u t y H e a d o f N o r t h e r n C a p e w h o is 10 n o w t h e A c t i n g H e a d o f G a u t e n g , a n d e v e n t u a l ly a f te r d i s a g r e e m e n t s h o w m a t t e r s w e r e d o n e M r B u d u w a s t h e n tr a n s f e r r e d to t h e E a s te r n C a p e , a n d h e c o u l d n ’ t q u e s ti o n i t . H e t h e n l e f t t h e D e p a r t m e n t b e c a u s e s e p a r a t io n fr o m h is fa m i ly h e c o u ld n ’ t t o l e r a t e i t a n y f u r t h e r. He has s in c e r e a p p li e d f o r a p o s i ti o n in I P I D a n d b e f o r e m y d e p a r tu r e w a s a p p o i n t e d t o t h a t p o s it i o n , s o h e i s b a c k a t I P I C . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : R ig h t. B u t h e is o n e e x a m p l e o f t h o s e u p r o o t e d a n d s e n t s o m e w h e r e e ls e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : 20 Over what period of time did t h e s e tr a n s f e r s u n d e r t h i s r e s tr u c t u r i n g o c c u r ? Wa s i t m o n th s , d a y s , weeks, years? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: T h e e x a c t d a te s I ’ m n o t s u r e b u t t h i s w o u ld b e a p e r i o d o f a t l e a s t n i n e m o n t h s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u r e f e r in p a r a g r a p h 7 5 t o a r e p o r t o f t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l d a t e d 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 , w a s th is a r e p o r t o f Page 144 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 o c c u r r e n c e s w i th i n I P I D a n d t h e p e r f o r m a n c e o f I P I D d u r in g t h e p e r i o d of your suspension? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s , I th in k i t c o v e r e d t h e 1 5 / 1 6 p e r i o d w h ic h is a p e r i o d u p o n a ls o h a l f o f t h e y e a r w h i c h I r e t u r n e d d u r i n g O c t o b e r, b u t i t c o v e r e d a s i g n i fi c a n t p a r t o f w h e n I w a s a b s e n t , b u t if y o u ’r e h e a d o f th e o r g a n is a ti o n y o u h a v e t o ta k e r e s p o n s ib il i ty f o r everything. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e r e p o r t a p p e a r s in E x h i b i t Y d a t p a g e 1 4 6 4 a n d t h e r e ’s a n e x tr a c t a t p a g e 1 4 7 5 , p a r a g r a p h 2 7 , i f 10 y o u c o u ld p l a c e t h a t o n r e c o r d p l e a s e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Is th a t d C h a ir ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D , s m a l l l e t te r d , Ex h ib i t Y d , p a g e 1 4 6 4 is t h e f ir s t p a g e o f t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l R e p o r t a n d t h e e x tr a c t is a t p a r a g r a p h 2 7 o f 1 4 7 5 , i f y o u c o u l d j u s t p la c e t h a t o n r e c o r d p le a s e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : I h a v e i t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : R i g h t , ju s t r e a d t h a t o n t o th e r e c o r d p le a s e , a n d c o m m e n t i f y o u w il l . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : 20 p o s i ti o n have also been F o u r o ffic i a ls i n t o p m a n a g e m e n t suspended or tr a n s f e r r e d w h ic h has c o m p o u n d e d l e a d e r s h i p e ff e c ti v e n e s s p r o b l e m s , e th ic a l i s s u e s i n t h e d e a li n g o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t h a v e a ls o b e e n id e n t i fi e d w h ic h f o r m s p a r t o f t h e o n g o i n g l e a d e r s h ip in s t a b i li ty. A n d t h i s it ’s d a te d 2 2 n d o f J u ly 2 0 1 6 . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I s t h a t th e p a s s a g e t o w h ic h y o u w is h e d t o r e f e r th e C h a ir ? Page 145 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Ye s , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u r e tu r n e d to o ff ic e y o u s a y i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t a t p a r a g r a p h 7 6 o n t h e 1 9 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 6 ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : And you requested a handover report? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d y o u r e c e iv e s u c h a r e p o r t fr o m M r K g a m a n y a n e ? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : N o I d id n o t . I n f a c t I d i d n o t s e e M r K g a m a n y a n e a t w o r k e v e r a g a i n , o r a n y ti m e s i n c e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u r r e q u e s t s f o r a r e p o r t o n h is response are in the bundles, do you need to refer to them? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : N o , n o t n e c e s s a r il y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y y o u d id n ’t s e e M r K g a m a n y a n e a t w o r k a g a in . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u r s u s p e n s io n h e w a s P r o v in c i a l H e a d i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e i s n ’ t i t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON : He did go back there or you don’t know? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : N o C h a ir h e w a s tr a n s fe r r e d t o D P C I . N o w u s u a ll y w h e n a p e r s o n is tr a n s fe r r e d b o th D e p a r t m e n ts h a v e t o a g r e e to t h e tr a n s f e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d c e r t a i n l y t h e H e a d o f th e o r g a n is a ti o n fr o m w h ic h h e c o m e s s h o u l d b e i n f o r m e d o r s h o u l d h a v e b e e n c o n s u l te d . Page 146 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s C h a ir b u t t h e tr a n s fe r w a s e ff e c t e d b y M i n i s te r N h le g u , s o it w a s n o t d o n e b y m e , i t w a s d o n e b e tw e e n M i n is t e r N h l e g u a n d G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n t h e m e a n ti m e G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a h a d b e c o m e , h a d t a k e n G e n e r a l D r a m a t ’s p o s i t io n a s h e a d o f D P C I ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: I t h in k p e r h a p s a t t h a t s ta g e h e w a s a lr e a d y p e r m a n e n t ly a p p o i n te d t o t h a t p o s i ti o n . CHAIRPERSON : O h , e i t h e r h e w a s a c t in g o r h e w a s p e r m a n e n t ly appointed, ja. 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , t h a t’s c o r r e c t y e s . CHAIRPERSON : O k a y, b u t y o u w e r e n o t c o n s u l t e d , y o u r v i e w s w e r e not sought and you did not – you were not asked for your consent or a n y th in g l ik e th a t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : A b s o l u te ly n o t C h a ir. I f I c a n j u s t a d d o n a t a s t a g e w h e n th e c o n s i d e r a t io n o f d is c ip li n a r y p r o c e s s e s a g a in s t M r K g a m a n y a n e i t w a s a t t h a t ti m e t h a t h e c o m p le t e d h is m o v e t o D P C I , in f a c t h e t o o k l e a v e f o r a fe w w e e k s u p o n my a r r iv a l – in f a c t th e d a y b e f o r e t h e M i n i s t e r a p p r o v e d h is l e a v e f o r tw o w e e k s b e c a u s e i t w a s known that I would come back on the 19 th of October and I think it was 20 t h e F r i d a y I th i n k 1 9 t h c o u l d h a v e b e e n a Tu e s d a y s o i t w a s a d a y b e f o r e , th e 1 8 t h , t h e r e ’s a le a v e f o r m w h i c h I f o u n d w h i c h t h e M i n is t e r h a d a p p r o v e d h is l e a v e t o b e a w a y fr o m t h e o ff ic e . CHAIRPERSON : Mmm. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : The communication we’ve just r e fe r r e d t o a n d th a t is M r K g a m a n y a n e ’s r e s p o n s e t o y o u r r e q u e s t f o r a Page 147 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 h a n d o v e r r e p o r t is d a t e d t h e 2 7 t h o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 6 a n d i t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 5 5 4 o f E x h i b i t Y d , w o u l d y o u m i n d g o i n g th e r e p le a s e a n d j u s t t e ll th e C h a ir v e r y b r i e fly i f t h e r e ’s a n y th i n g i n t h a t y o u b e li e v e b e a r s e m p h a s is . C H A I R P E R S O N : P a g e 1 5 5 4 y o u s a id ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 1 5 5 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t r e p ly s h o u l d b e r e a d i n th e c o n te x t o f y o u r r e q u e s t a t 1 5 5 2 . 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h e r e y o u s a id i n p a r a g r a p h 3 t h e E x c o h a s d ir e c t e d t h a t th e f o l lo w i n g a s p e c ts s h o u l d b e c o v e r e d i n your presentation. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : What were you seeking to e s t a b li s h o r fi n d o u t a b o u t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : I h a d in d i c a t e d th a t th e r e ’s s o m e e x p l a n a t io n in t h e fi n a n c i a l t r a n s f e r s o f th e D e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t i n g e n e r a l , f i n a n c ia l i m p li c a t i o n s o f w h a t h a p p e n e d . 20 The E x e c u t iv e C o m m i t t e e o f th e D e p a r t m e n t h a d a m e e ti n g a n d a s a r e s u l t o f t h a t m e e ti n g i t w a s d e c i d e d t h a t t h e fo ll o w i n g i n f o r m a t i o n is r e q u ir e d a n d t h a t i t is p r o p e r a n d c o r r e c t to h a v e a h a n d o v e r r e p o r t s o th a t d e c is i o n s th a t w e r e t a k e n b y th e A c ti n g E x e c u ti v e D ir e c to r s o m e r a ti o n a le c o u l d b e p r o v id e d f o r t h e m . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A n d t h e r e a r e v a r io u s o t h e r Page 148 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 m a t t e r s i n r e s p e c t o f w h ic h y o u r e q u e s t e d in f o r m a ti o n , is t h a t s o ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t , I’ m n o t s u r e t h a t i t ’s n e c e s s a r y t o g o i n t o a n y d e ta il , b u t d i d y o u r e c e i v e a c o o p e r a t iv e r e s p o n s e , a n d I’ m r e f e r r i n g t o p a g e 1 5 5 4 . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : S o i n p a r ti c u la r I w il l r e fe r to p a g e 1 5 5 5 , w h i c h b a s i c a ll y s u ms u p t h e a t ti t u d e , i t ’s th e e n d o f t h e s e n t e n c e . “ F o r th e r e c o r d I a c c o u n t e d t o w h o e v e r w h o a p p o i n te d m e to a c t fo r th a t p a r t ic u l a r p e r i o d a n d a n y is s u e , m a t t e r a n d 10 u n c e r t a in ty t h a t y o u a r e h a v in g y o u a r e m o r e th a n w e lc o m e t o t a k e i t u p w i th h i m a s H e ( w i t h c a p i t a l l e t t e r H a s o n e r e f e r s t o the Good Lord) He is the one who suspended you and t h e r e a f te r a p p o i n t e d m e .” B u t th a t s u m m e d u p t h e a t ti t u d e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Yo u r e q u e s t e d i n f o r m a ti o n o n v a r io u s o p e r a t io n a l m a t te r s ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : An d you say the response you r e c e i v e d w a s t o p u t i t m i ld ly n o t e n t ir e ly h e l p fu l ? 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : J a , i t d i d n o t a s s is t a t a ll . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t, c a n w e g o p le a s e to p a g e 1 8 o f B u n d l e YA , y o u r s ta t e m e n t , a t p a r a g r a p h 7 7 . I s i t c o r r e c t t h a t Mr K g a m a n y a n e f a c e d d i s c i p li n a r y a c ti o n f o r w h a t o c c u r r e d i n I P I D d u r i n g h is p e r i o d o f c o n tr o l ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s . Page 149 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D o y o u k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h a t m a t te r ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h e d is c ip l in e r e a c t i o n ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : It fell away because he transferr ed to another department. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t , l e t’s g o t h e n to t h e n e x t t o p ic y o u d e a l w i t h o n p a g e 1 8 , a n d t h a t ’s t h e i n fi l tr a t i o n o f I P I D b y C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e . Yo u ’v e t o l d t h e C h a ir t h a t d u r in g t h e p e r i o d o f y o u r 10 s u s p e n s i o n t h r e e m e m b e r s o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e b e c a m e e m p l o y e d within IPID. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W o u l d y o u lik e t o c o m m e n t i n that regard? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s I n o tic e d u p o n m y r e tu r n t h a t t h e r e w e r e – th a n k s C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Ta k e y o u r t i m e , i t’s in p a r a g r a p h 78. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : 20 appointed D ir e c t o r I n t e lli g e n c e . I n v e s ti g a t i o n s In in Ja, Brigadier Cloe Gommo had been In v e s ti g a t o r s e ff e c t Mr he S e s o k o ’s and was he the had come fr o m A c ti n g Head of p o s it i o n . I n t e lli g e n c e s o o n a f t e r m y r e tu r n t o o ffi c e . He returned Crime National to Crime M y n e x t e n c o u n te r w i t h G o m m o w a s in P a r li a m e n t w h e r e h e w a s p a r t o f G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e ’s t e a m t o c o m e t o I P I D I n v e s t ig a ti o n s . G o m m o w o u ld l a t e r a p p r o a c h I P I D Page 150 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 in v e s t i g a t o r s , M a n d l a M a h l a n g u a n d C e d r ic N c a b e n d e to o ff e r t h e m B r i g a d ie r p o s i t io n s to in d u c e t h e m t o m a k e f a l s e s t a te m e n t s t o i m p l ic a t e I P I D m a n a g e r s i n w r o n g d o i n g , a n d t h e n I r e f e r t o a r e c o r d i n g m a d e b y M a h la n g u a b o u t h is c o n v e r s a ti o n o r p h o n e c a l l w i th G o m m o a n d s u c h a n o ff e r is m a d e a n d th e r e is a c c o m p a n y i n g s t a t e m e n t s to t h o s e r e c o r d i n g m a d e b y M r M a h la n g u . H e c o n fir m s t o M a h l a n g u , th a t is G o m m o , th a t h e is w o r k i n g w i th t h e N o r t h w e s t t e a m le d b y M a jo r G e n e r a l J a n M a b u l a , i t w a s a c t u a ll y n o t n e c e s s a r y t o e v e n c o n fir m t h a t b e c a u s e I h a d s e e n h i m i n P a r l ia m e n t o n G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e ’s s i d e . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : L e t’s t a k e t h a t s t e p b y s t e p b e c a u s e y o u ’ v e j u s t g i v e n a lo t o f e v id e n c e in a v e r y s h o r t p e r i o d o f ti m e . Th e f ir s t p o i n t t h a t y o u m a k e i n p a r a g r a p h 7 8 i s t h a t G o m m o a n d o th e r s d u r i n g y o u r s u s p e n s i o n b e c a m e e m p l o y e d b y I P I D . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : S h o r t ly a f te r y o u r r e t u r n w e n t b a c k to C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON : Wa s h e e m p l o y e d o n a p e r m a n e n t b a s is d u r i n g y o u r a b s e n c e o r i t w a s i t w a s ju s t a te m p o r a r y a r r a n g e m e n t ? 20 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : I t w a s – t h a n k s C h a ir. It was a permanent appointment at IPID. CHAIRPERSON : Oh. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I w a n t t o d e a l w i th t h e r e c o r d i n g . I f y o u c o u l d g o t o A n n e x u r e Q w h i c h is a t p a g e 1 5 5 7 o f E x h i b i t Y d . C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t g iv e m e t h e p a g e a g a i n ? Page 151 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t i s a t p a g e 1 5 5 7 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A g a i n t h e f u l l i m p o r t o f th is r e c o r d i n g c a n o n ly p r o p e r ly b e u n d e r s t o o d w h e n d ir e c t e v id e n c e is g iv e n a s t o i ts c o n t e n ts a n d M a n d la M l o n g o i n o r d e r t o p l a c e i t b e f o r e t h e C h a ir w o u ld h a v e t o g iv e d ir e c t e v id e n c e a s t o w h a t o c c u r r e d d u r in g t h e t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t a n d t h e c o n t e x t in w h i c h it o c c u r r e d a n d … 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : And what preceded and s u b s e q u e n t ly o c c u r r e d a f t e r th e c o n v e r s a ti o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d a s a p a r t y to t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n M a n d l a M h l o n g o c a n a l s o g iv e e v i d e n c e a s t o t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s u n d e r w h ic h th e r e c o r d i n g w a s m a d e . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: T h a t is c o r r e c t a n d w h ic h t h e a c c o m p a n y i n g a ff id a v i t t o t h e r e c o r d i n g w a s m a d e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t t h a t is a l l t o … MR 20 ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : In a p a r t ic u l a r criminal case in v e s t i g a t io n w h ic h w a s o p e n e d a s a r e s u l t o f t h i s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o it is a m a t t e r o f p u b l ic r e c o r d a lr e a d y i s i t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A b s o l u te ly. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : played. Right. Just ask that it be C h a i r th is tr a n s c r i p t w h i c h s h o w s t h e w o r d s i n th e o r i g in a l Page 152 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 la n g u a g e u s e d a n d t h e n t h e tr a n s l a ti o n fo ll o w s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : C o u l d y o u p l a y i t p l e a s e . S o r r y b e f o r e y o u s t a r t p l a y in g . T h e tr a n s c r ip t r e f e r s t o a p e r s o n b y t h e n a m e w e ll n o t b y t h e n n a m e b y t h e t it l e o f m a l e , m - a - l- e , w h o is t h a t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is Mr M l o n g o . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th e n m a l e 1 w h o is th a t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : It is B r i g a d ie r G o m o . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y. W o u l d y o u p l a y it p l e a s e ? 10 [ L I S T E N I N G TO R E C O R D I N G ] CHAIRPERSON : Is that the end? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o i t c o n t in u e s I a m t o ld . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e te c h n ic i a n s a r e l o o k i n g a t y o u . [ L I S T E N I N G TO R E C O R D I N G ] A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u . O n c e a g a in w e w i ll c h e c k t h e tr a n s l a ti o n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : F o r t h e m o m e n t j u s t t o p l a c e o n record 20 there w ill be independent e v id e n c e in regard to this c o n v e r s a ti o n i n c l u d i n g a p a r t ic ip a n t i n t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I s a y t h a t p r o v is io n a l ly b e c a u s e I d o n o t h a v e t h e fi n a l a g r e e m e n t b u t w e w i ll e n d e a v o u r to p la c e i t b e f o r e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 153 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e s e c o n d p o i n t p e r h a p s th is s h o u l d b e d e a l t w i th y o u b y – d e a lt w i t h b y y o u Mr M c B r i d e . The t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n a p p e a r s to h a v e t a k e n p l a c e o n t h e 2 1 J u n e 2 0 1 8 th a t is s o m e t i m e a f t e r y o u r r e t u r n t o I P I D , a f t e r y o u r s u s p e n s i o n , is t h a t c o r r e c t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is – t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t a t th a t ti m e … C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k h e ju s t lo o k i n g f o r s o m e t h i n g b e fo r e y o u … MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Chair I am not – I am back on my … 10 CHAIRPERSON : Yo u t r y i n g to lo o k f o r s o m e t h i n g t h a t w il l h e l p y o u with the timing? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : M y s t a t e m e n t h e r e . I t h i n k o n th e – w e n e e d t o ju s t d o u b l e c h e c k t h e d a t e o n w h ic h i t h a p p e n e d i n p a r tic u la r t h e y e a r. My – i f m y m e m o r y i s r i g h t i t w a s in 2 0 1 8 . I t c o u l d h a v e b e e n – i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n 2 0 1 7 a s t h is w a s o n e c o n ti n u o u s p r o c e s s I w il l h a v e t o d o u b le c h e c k o n t h a t i n t e r m s o f s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts ja . I d o n o t h a v e i n d e p e n d e n t r e c o l l e c t i o n n o w. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e ll th e h e a d in g t o t h e r e c o r d i n g s a y s 2 1 J u n e 2 0 1 8 I p r e s u m e t h a t c a n b e in d e p e n d e n tl y 20 c h e c k e d b y o u r o w n i n v e s t ig a t o r s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : M y o n ly c o n c e r n is p e r h a p s t h e d a y o n w h ic h th e tr a n s c r ip t io n w a s m a d e I a m n o t – I a m n o t r e a l ly … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t m a y a ls o b e c o r r e c t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : B e c a u s e t h e r e a r e n u m b e r o f e r r o r s in t h e tr a n s c r ip t io n . Fo r e x a m p l e r e f e r e n c e t o Mr S e s o k o i s r e f l e c te d a s … Page 154 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s w e w i ll c o m e t o th a t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u s a y t h is c o u l d h a v e happened in 2017? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n a n y e v e n t – w h a t p o s it i o n d id y o u o c c u p y a t th e ti m e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : I w a s t h e E x e c u ti v e D i r e c t o r o f I P I D . ADV 10 PA U L JOSEPH P R E TO R I U S SC : After your return from suspension? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M r M l o n g o w h a t p o s i ti o n d id h e occupy at the time? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : H e w a s a p r in c i p l e i n v e s t ig a t o r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W i t h I P I D ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : Ye s . H e w a s – h e w a s h a n d li n g a n u m b e r o f s e n s i ti v e i n v e s ti g a t i o n s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . W h e n y o u s a y s e n s i ti v e in v e s t i g a t io n s c a n y o u n a m e o n e o r t w o ? 20 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : W e ll th e o b v i o u s o n e a n d f o r t h i s p a r t ic u l a r d is c u s s i o n a n d w h a t I h a v e t e s ti f ie d t o a li t tl e b i t e a r li e r i t w a s t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n i n t o G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: I n i ti a l ly M r M l o n g o w a s t h e h e a d in v e s t i g a t o r. Page 155 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t a n d Mr G o m o w h a t p o s i ti o n d i d h e o c c u p y a t th e ti m e ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: He was a Br ig a d i e r in Crime I n t e lli g e n c e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Had he gone back to Crime I n t e lli g e n c e b y t h i s t i m e ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : c o r r e c t C h a ir. B y t h e t i m e o f – y e s th a t i s A t th e t i m e o f h i m m a k i n g t h a t p h o n e c a ll h e w a s i n C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . S o w h a t w e h a v e h e r e is a c o n v e r s a ti o n b e tw e e n a s e n i o r o ffic e r i n C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e a n d a n in v e s t i g a t o r i n I P I D M r M l o n g o . M r M l o n g o w a s a t t h e ti m e e n g a g e d i n a n u m b e r o f s e n s i t iv e i n v e s ti g a t i o n s i n v o lv i n g m e m b e r s o f th e S o u th A fr ic a n P o l ic e S e r v i c e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E: T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n c l u d i n g G e n e r a l P h a h la n e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s e n s i ti v e i n th is c o n te x t h a s a lo t t o d o w i th t h e 20 p o s i ti o n s i n g o v e r n m e n t o r s o c i e ty o f t h e p e r s o n s w h o w e r e a ff e c t e d b y t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Chair that is… CHAIRPERSON : Part of it? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : P a r t o f t h e c o n s i d e r a ti o n s . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s . T h e o t h e r p a r t w a s e x a c tly w h a t w a s b e in g Page 156 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 in v e s t i g a t e d ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A b s o l u te ly C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Fi r s tl y fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e t e s ti fi e d a b o u t t h e in d e p e n d e n c e o f I P I D r e g a r d l e s s o f th e d e t a i l s h o u l d a c o n v e r s a ti o n o f t h i s ty p e e v e r h a v e ta k e n p l a c e b e t w e e n a s e n io r o ffic i a l i n C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e a n d a n i n v e s t i g a t o r i n I P I D ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : C h a ir i f – if t h e c o n t e x t i s – e v e n i f t h e c o n te x t is n o t g i v e n in t h is c o n v e r s a ti o n t h e c o n t e n t s a r e i m p r o p e r. A s 10 t h e r e i s c l e a r l y o ff e r s o f a j o b . In f a c t j o b s a r e j u s t o ff e r e d o u t. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s w e k n o w t h a t . B u t m y p o in t – w e w il l g e t to t h e c o n t e n t i n a m o m e n t . My p o i n t is t h a t th is is a s e n i o r o ffi c e r i n C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e t a lk i n g a b o u t j o b o ffe r s t o a p e r s o n in I P I D w h o is d o i n g i n v e s ti g a t i o n s i n t o m e m b e r s o f t h e p o lic e fo r c e . CHAIRPERSON : I th in k M r P r e t o r iu s y o u r q u e s ti o n w a s s u c h t h a t I t h i n k h e h a d t o t h i n k w h e th e r t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n ir r e s p e c t iv e o f w h o i t w a s b e t w e e n w h e t h e r i t w a s p r o p e r o r n o t. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h is a n s w e r th a t a t w h a te v e r le v e l i t w a s i m p r o p e r. 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e s h o u l d b e u n d e r s t o o d i n th a t c o n t e x t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s I a m – I a m j u s t d e a l i n g w i t h a d i ff e r e n t p o i n t a p a r t f r o m t h e c o n te n t a n d t h a t is t h a t t h i s i s C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e t a l k i n g t o I P I D . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : C h a ir t o a n s w e r t h a t i n i ts fu ll e s t is th a t Page 157 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 it c a n n o t b e p u r e l y i m p r o p e r fo r a c o n v e r s a ti o n t o b e h e l d w i th t w o f o r m e r c o l l e a g u e s i f I c a n p u t i t in t h a t w a y. Th e c o n t e x t h e r e is th a t t h e y d is c u s s i n g i n v e s t ig a ti o n s a n d t h a t a t t h a t s t a g e B r ig a d i e r G o m o w a s i n c h a r g e o f I n te r n a l S e c u r i ty n o th i n g t o d o w i th a n ti - c o r r u p t io n s t u ff a n d th a t w h y h e is – h is a p p e a r a n c e i n 2 0 1 7 , 1 6 M a y a t P a r l ia m e n t w i t h G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e a n d h is t e a m w a s a lr e a d y p r o b l e m a ti c . T h e r e i s – c l e a r ly t h e i n v e s t i g a t io n – th e – I m e a n – a s p e c t s o f t h e s t a t e m e n t s a y w e l l a n d s u b je c t t o c o n fi r m a ti o n . W e d o n o t w a n t t o d e t e c t iv e w o r k b e c a u s e d e t e c ti v e w o r k is b u s y w a s t in g ti m e c h a s i n g c r i m in a l s . T h e r e 10 is a k i n d o f o r i e n t a ti o n h e r e w h i c h is fo r m e is d i s t u r b in g . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Al r i g h t . L e t u s g o t o th e c o n te n t then. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d I w il l r e t u r n to t h e q u e s ti o n la t e r. I t a p p e a r s t h a t a t p a g e 1 5 5 8 a n d f o l lo w in g a n d in s u m m a r y t h e d is c u s s io n t a k e s p la c e a n d it m a y e v e n b e t e r m e d a n o ff e r o n c lo s e r e x a m in a ti o n o f a p o s t fo r M r M l o n g o , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 20 A n d o n p a g e 1 5 6 0 t h e r a n k is d is c u s s e d f ir s t Br i g a d i e r t h e n C o l o n e l ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o w i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e p o s t o c c u p i e d a t th e ti m e b y M r M l o n g o w o u l d th is h a v e b e e n a p r o m o t io n , w o u ld i t h a v e b e e n a t r a n s f e r a t t h e s a m e le v e l o f s e n i o r i ty, w h a t is t h e p o s i ti o n ? Page 158 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : S o it is a – i t r e p r e s e n t s a p r o m o ti o n q u i te a s u b s t a n ti a l o n e e x c e e d in g a f e w l e v e ls a n d j u m p in g a f e w le v e ls . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o w e k n o w t h e n t h a t t h e t w o i n t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n a r e d is c u s s i n g a s u b s t a n ti a l p r o m o t io n a n d a t r a n s f e r. I f w e c a n g o t h e n t o p a g e 1 5 6 1 M r M lo n g o s a y s b u t lo o k is t h is n o t f a v o u r i ti s m o r c o r r u p t io n o f s o m e s o r t , w i ll i t n o t b e v i e w e d li k e t h a t ? A n d t h e a n s w e r i s , n o , n o th a t is n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h c o r r u p t io n y o u r e s ig n a t I P I D a n d th e n y o u w o r k w h e r e y o u li k e . 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : I m e a n I – I th in k … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u d o n o t n e e d to c o m m e n t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e v a l i d i ty o f s u c h a s ta t e m e n t is … MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A p p a r e n t o n t h e fa c e o f it o r i ts la c k o f v a l id i ty. B u t w h a t I w o u ld l ik e to d o is a s k y o u a b o u t w h a t y o u k n o w o f t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n a t t h e b o t t o m o f p a g e 1 5 6 1 . I n o th e r w o r d s o n t h e o n e h a n d t h e r e is ta lk o f a t r a n s fe r o r a te r m in a ti o n o f 20 employment and reemployment at a much more senior level. T h a t is w h a t w e h a v e e s t a b l is h e d s o f a r. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t a t t h e b o t to m o f p a g e 1 5 6 1 t h e tr a n s l a ti o n r e a d s : “ R e m e m b e r h e r e y o u a r e w it h u s n o w a n d w e Page 159 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 d is c u s s e d th e t h i n g s t h a t w e ll w h e r e y o u r s e r v ic e f e ll o w i s g o i n g d o w n .” W h a t is b e in g s a i d t h e r e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t th e c o n t e x t is g iv e n o n p a g e 1 5 6 2 a n d e x a c tl y w h a t i t m e a n s . I t c a m e o v e r o n th e – o n t h e r e c o r d in g . H e r e it is s t a te d i n th e f o u r t h l in e a s i n d is t in c t. S o M r M lo n g o a s k s B r i g a d ie r G o m o w h y w o u ld a n d w h a t is i n d is t in c t t h e r e is E D w e g o in g down. Because of what? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h o is E D ? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : E D w a s m e I w a s E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o E D w a s b a s ic a lly E f o r E x e c u t iv e D f o r D ir e c t o r ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Reference to me. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e n i n th e c o n t e x t fi r s tl y o f w h a t a p p e a r s o n t h e f a c e o f i t a t le a s t to b e a n o ffe r o f a s e n i o r p o s i ti o n in Crime In t e l li g e n c e . S e c o n d ly in th e context of a c o n v e r s a ti o n w h e r e th e Ex e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r th a t is y o u i s q u o t e “ g o in g 20 d o w n ” . E v id e n c e i s t h e n d i s c u s s e d in t h e m i d d l e o f p a g e 1 5 6 2 w h e r e M r Ml o n g o s a y s : “ Al l th o s e q u e s ti o n s I r e c e iv e d I k n o w n o t h i n g a b o u t t h e m . Yo u s e e I a m g o i n g t o b e a u s e l e s s 2 0 4 .” A n d t h e n t h e r e s p o n s e f r o m B r ig a d i e r G o m o is : “ N o t h o s e q u e s ti o n s w h e t h e r w e k n o w t h e m o r w e d o Page 160 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 n o t k n o w t h e m i s ir r e le v a n t .” W h a t is – i f y o u c o u l d ju s t g iv e s o m e e x p l a n a ti o n o f th a t in t h e c o n t e x t of what you know? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: T h e k e y i s s u e is t h e y a r e d is c u s s i n g S e c t i o n 2 0 4 . T h a t l i n e b e f o r e th a t s a y s S e c t io n 4 , b u t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: I t is 204 of th e Criminal P r o c e d u r e A c t? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ja. I t is w h e n a n a c c o m p l ic e w i tn e s s t e s ti fi e s a g a i n s t h i s , h is c o p e r p e tr a t o r s a s i t w e r e . N o w w h a t is b e i n g 10 o ffe r e d a n d w h a t h a s b e e n e x p l a i n e d is t h a t b y K h o m o is y o u w i ll b e t h e 2 0 4 a n d M a h la n g u is s a y i n g I w i ll b e a u s e l e s s 2 0 4 b e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w a n y t h in g a b o u t t h o s e q u e s t i o n s t h a t w e r e p o s e d t o m e . R e f e r r i n g t o s o m e p r e v i o u s o c c a s i o n w h ic h , w h ic h t h e y c a n e x p la in d ir e c t ly w h a t it is a n d K h o m o ’s p o s i ti o n i s r e g a r d l e s s o f w h e t h e r y o u k n o w a b o u t th e q u e s t io n s o r n o t a n d i n – s o t h e n t h e s u b je c t is c h a n g e d a b o u t w h e r e h e i s d r iv i n g b u t t h e i s s u e i s r e g a r d le s s o f w h e t h e r y o u k n o w o r n o t y o u w i ll g e t p r o m o t e d a n d o b v io u s ly t h e o t h e r w i t n e s s - M r M a h l a n g u w o u ld h a v e t o g iv e c o n te x t t o t h a t d ir e c t ly, w h a t i t m e a n t o r w h a t i t c o u l d o n ly h a v e m e a n t o r w h e t h e r i t c o u l d m e a n a n y t h i n g e ls e . M a y b e 20 t h e r e i s a n i n n o c e n t e x p l a n a ti o n f o r it . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : F o r t h e m o m e n t w h a t n e e d s to b e e x p l a in e d is a c o n v e r s a ti o n b e tw e e n a s e n i o r o ffi c e r i n C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e s p e a k i n g t o a n in v e s ti g a t o r i n I P I D w h o i s i n v e s ti g a ti n g a n u m b e r o f s e n s i t iv e c a s e s . A n o ffe r o f e m p lo y m e n t a t a le v e l fa r m o r e s e n i o r th a n t h a t b e i n g h e l d a t t h e t i m e b y Mr M a h la n g u . Page 161 of 170 Yo u th e 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 E x e c u t iv e D i r e c t o r “ g o i n g d o w n ” e v id e n c e t o b e g iv e n i n a c a s e w h e r e y o u a r e to b e a n a c c u s e d a n d h e i s t o b e p r e s u m a b ly a n a c c o m p li c e that appears on the face of it to be the case. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E: W e l l C h a i r t h e r e w a s a n a t t e m p t to d o t h a t w h e n t h e M a b u l a Te a m a c tu a lly c h a r g e d a n d I a m s u r e w e w il l g e t t o i t l a te r. P a u l O ’ S u l liv a n , S a r a h Tr e n t , B i n a n g o n e o f t h e le a d in v e s t i g a t o r s a n d M r M a h l a n g u . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u r s e l f . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: No I was not charged. 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e r e y o u n o t c h a r g e d w i th e n t e r in g p r e m i s e s ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: N o , n o I w a s n o t t h e r e a t a ll . I think when we consulted I covered that. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n a c o u n t e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: No, I was not there on the scene where t h e y w e r e c h a r g e d a n d w h a t h e is d i s c u s s i n g i s t h e s tr a te g y to n o w in c l u d e m e a ls o b e c a u s e n o w I a m g o i n g d o w n a s th e c h a r g e f r o m e n t e r in g p r e m is e s e v o lv e s a n d s n o w b a l l s a n d m ir a c u l o u s ly b e c o m e s racketeering later on. 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t y o u w e r e t h e s u b j e c t m a t t e r of that charge at a stage? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : N o , I w a s n o t . I w a s n o t [i n t e r v e n e s ] . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e n I m i s u n d e r s to o d w h a t y o u h a v e t o l d m e p r e v i o u s l y, b u t w e w il l g e t t h e r e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . Page 162 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e p e o p l e i n v o l v e d s e e m to b e t h o s e r e f e r r e d t o a t th e to p o f p a g e 1 5 6 5 . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? CHAIRPERSON : B e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d Mr P r e t o r i u s . Mr M c B r i d e a f e w m i n u t e s a g o I w a n te d t o a s k y o u w h e t h e r y o u a r e s t il l c o m f o r t a b l e . A r e y o u s ti ll o k a y ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s C h a ir. I a m g o o d . CHAIRPERSON : O k a y, a lr i g h t . Thank you. Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M r Pr e to r i u s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 Page 1565. W e l l l e t is g o t o 1564 before we get to 1565. 1564 Mr Khomo says: “ Ye s te r d a y y o u s a i d y o u a r e g o i n g t o … ” S o r r y n o t Mr K h o m o . Mr M a h la n g u s a y s : “ Ye s te r d a y y o u s a i d y o u a r e g o i n g t o i n c l u d e … ” I t r e a d s M r S e ts u b i , b u t I th in k w e a l l h e a r d it i s n o t h i m . I t is M r S e s o k o is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is r i g h t. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th e n a t th e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e Mr M a h la n g u – is t h a t M r K h o m o s a y s : “ Bu t t h e r e is n o t a n y t h in g w r o n g h e d i d th u s f a r b u t 20 if w e c a n fi n d a w a y l ik e w e d is c u s s e d t h a t d a y l ik e fi n d i n g t h a t l a p t o p . W e c o u l d fi n d t h e c a s e t h a t h e committed.” W h a t is th e c o n te x t t h e r e ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I am not sure whose laptop they are lo o k in g fo r. I a s s u m e i t is M r S e s o k o ’s i n t h e c o n te x t o f th e d i s c u s s io n . Page 163 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t w h a t is b e i n g d is c u s s e d h e r e is t h e c o n t e x t o f t h e p r o m o ti o n , y o u a r e g o in g d o w n is t h e f a c t t h a t o n e o f t h e p e r s o n s to b e a d d e d to th e l is t t h e y d o n o t h a v e a n y t h i n g a g a in s t h i m t h u s f a r b u t t h e y a r e l o o k i n g f o r a w a y o f f i n d in g a c a s e a g a i n s t him. Am I correct? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: C h a ir l e t m e , l e t m e a n s w e r th is q u e s t io n b e c a u s e i t n e e d s a p r o p e r a n s w e r n o t t h a t a n d I s h o u l d b e le s s r e t ic e n t to j u s t s a y i t a s i t is . A ll o f t h is is a r u s e t o s ta r t a s h a m in v e s t i g a t io n a g a in s t I P I D t o s c u p p e r th e P h a h l a n e in v e s ti g a t io n . T h a t 10 is w h a t a ll o f t h is i s a b o u t. T h i s is a p l a n h a t c h e d h o w t o c o u n te r I P I D s in v e s t i g a t io n . e ls e . Th a t in e s s e n c e th a t is i t . I t is n o t h i n g , i t is n o th i n g T h e y c a n c o m e a n d e x p la i n m a y b e i f t h e y h a v e a n i n n o c e n t e x p l a n a t io n . In t h e c o n t e x t o f w h a t to o k p la c e in li t ig a ti o n b e t w e e n o u r s e lv e s a s I P I D a n d t h e P h a h l a n e Te a m a n d M a b u l a Te a m w h o i n a n y c a s e a r e s u s p e c ts a n d t h e t w o j u d g m e n ts o f P r i n s l o o a n d S t o c k to n f o r b i d s th is c o u n t e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n t o t a k e p l a c e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I understand that but perhaps w h a t w e s h o u l d d o is d e a l w i t h y o u r e v i d e n c e o n th e c o u n t e r in v e s t i g a t io n . 20 MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : F ir s t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e n t h is w il l m a k e s e n s e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t f o r t h e m o m e n t i t a p p e a r s o n Page 164 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 t h e f a c e o f i t t h a t t h i s c o n v e r s a ti o n is t a lk i n g a b o u t a p o te n ti a l c a s e a g a in s t s e v e n a c c u s e d ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n c lu d e d i n t h is c o n v e r s a t i o n is t h e p r o s p e c t o f j o i n in g Mr S e s o k o a s o n e o f th e a c c u s e d . C o r r e c t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A t t h e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e t h e r e a p p e a r s to b e a s t a te m e n t : “ Bu t t h e r e is n o t a n y th in g w r o n g t h a t h e is d o n e b u t w e c a n fi n d s o m e t h in g w r o n g .” 10 Do you see that? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s a n d a l s o i n t h e m id d l e o f t h e p a g e w h e n K h o m o s p e a k s a b o u t o r Mr M a h la n g u s p e a k s a b o u t Mr S e s o k o h e says: “ Ye s te r d a y y o u g u y s s a i d y o u a r e g o i n g t o i n c lu d e M r S e s o k o a s w e l l a n d K h u b a .” S o i t i s a c o n t e x t in w h i c h t h a t – t h a t c o m m e n t o r r e s p o n s e b y K h o m o a t t h e b o t to m w h i c h y o u j u s t r e fe r r e d t o is s a i d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 20 W e l l K h u b a is m e n t io n e d o v e r t h e p a g e . I t is s p e l t K - H - U - W- A , b u t I t h i n k i t s h o u ld r e f e r to K h u b a n o t Khuwa. Do you see that? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ye s C h a ir. I am on page 1564 in the middle. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s , K h u b a is m e n ti o n e d o n 1565. Page 165 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o t o n 1 5 6 4 . W h e r e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : O n 1 5 6 4 h e is m e n ti o n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : [I n t e r v e n e s ] K h u w a . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O h I s e e t h a t y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : It m u s t b e K h u b a o n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o . CHAIRPERSON : 1564. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 S e ts u b i w h o is S e s o k o a n d K h u w a w h o is K h u b a . Ye s I s e e t h a t . Is t h a t t h e o n e y o u a r e r e f e r r in g to? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: A n d t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f t h a t C h a ir is that: “ Ye s te r d a y y o u g u y s - m e a n in g K h o m o - a r b i tr a r i ly a d d e d M r S e s o k o a n d Mr K h u b a t o th e s u s p e c ts .” A n d t h a t is t h a t is a n d th e n K h o m o s a y s : “ N o h e is n o t t h e r e . ” B u t c l e a r ly t h e r e h a s b e e n s o m e d is c u s s i o n i n t h e – y e s t e r d a y w h ic h M a h l a n g u m u s t g iv e c o n t e x t to b u t t h a t is th e c o n t e x t in w h i c h i t is 20 here. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t a n d t h e r e i s t h e q u e s ti o n o f f in d in g e v i d e n c e a t t h e b o t to m o f p a g e 1 5 6 4 . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: It says. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : “ B u t i f w e c a n fi n d a w a y l i k e w e d is c u s s e d t h a t d a y li k e f i n d in g a l a p t o p Page 166 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 w e c o u l d fi n d t h e c a s e t h a t h e c o m m i t te d .” MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: C h a ir j u s t i n t e r m s o f – th is i s n o t u n li k e t h e h u l la b a l o o a b o u t th e r e n d i ti o n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o I u n d e r s t a n d . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I a m j u s t d e a l i n g w i th w h a t is s a i d i n t h e tr a n s c r i p t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s , y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : F o r t h e m o m e n t r a th e r t h a n . 10 MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C o m m e n t in g t o o w i d e ly o n i t. I t is [ i n d is ti n c t ] – i t is c l e a r w h a t is b e in g s a i d h e r e . C o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e l a s t q u e s t io n I w o u l d l ik e t o d e a l w i t h f o r t o d a y a n d t h e n w e c a n c o m e b a c k t o th is r e fr e s h e d t o m o r r o w. A t t h e t o p o f t h e p a g e m a i l th a t is Mr M a h l a n g u s a y s : “ O h o k a y o h y e a h , t h e o th e r s i t m e a n s i t i s m e , t h e E D , P a u l a n d th e n i t is in d is ti n c t a n d N k a b i n d e , B i n a n g a n d P r in c e .” 20 N o w u n fo r t u n a t e ly w e a r e d e a l i n g w i th t h is c o n v e r s a t i o n b e fo r e w e d e a l w i t h th e c o u n te r i n v e s t ig a ti o n w h ic h w i ll e x p l a i n a l l o f th is b u t w h o w e r e all those people? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h e o n l y p e r s o n I a m n o t s u r e is Pr i n c e who they are referring to and I cannot work out even when I heard the r e c o r d i n g w h o P r in c e is . S o I a m n o t , I a m n o t s u r e w h o t h a t is b u t . Page 167 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: What is the name of the s e c r e t a r y o f P a u l O ’ S u ll iv a n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Tr e n t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr ig h t . So she was also part o f? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: She was charged in i ti a l ly with M a h l a n g u a n d B i n a n g a n d O ’ S u ll iv a n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y. So the people here and w e w i ll g i v e c o n t e x t t o th is la t e r, w h o a r e t h e y ? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . S o M r N k a b i n d e is a p e r s o n w h o w a s a ls o a p p r o a c h e d a t s o m e s ta g e to c h a n g e h is e v id e n c e a n d w h e n h e r e f u s e d t o o w n u p t o i t h e w a s k ic k e d o ff t h e Ta s k Te a m . I a m j u s t g o i n g th r o u g h it q u ic k ly a n d t h e n m a d e c o m p l a i n ts to t h e p r e s e n t M i n is t e r o f P o li c e a f t e r b e i n g k i c k e d o ff t h e Ta s k Te a m a n d t h e n B i n a n g w a s o n e o f th e i n it i a l a c c u s e d o f th e c o u n te r in v e s ti g a t io n w h ic h w a s c o n d u c t e d b y G e n e r a l M a b u l a a n d h is te a m . worse. In fact it becomes even B i n a n g a n d i t w a s a s u b j e c t o f [ i n d is ti n c t ] j u d g m e n t . Bi n a n g w a s in v e s t i g a t in g G e n e r a l M a b u l a a n d h is t e a m f o r a r a n g e o f t o r t u r e s s p a n n in g - s o m e o f t h e t o r t u r e s d a t e b a c k t o 2 0 0 6 , 2 0 1 0 a n d s o m e o f 20 t h e t e a m o f G e n e r a l M a b u la a p p e a r e d i n c o u r t in 2 0 1 2 . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : L e t u s n o t g o i n to t h e d e t a i l . W e a r e c o m i n g th e r e I p r o m i s e , j u s t t h e p e o p l e . T h a t is M a h l a n g u , t h e E D w h o i s y o u r s e l f . P a u l I p r e s u m e i s P a u l O ’ S u ll iv a n . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : And Nkabinde, Binang and Page 168 of 170 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 Prince. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u d o n o t k n o w w h o P r in c e is . N o w j u s t to f o r e s h a d o w w h a t y o u w i ll te l l t h e C h a ir t o m o r r o w is t h a t I P I D o ff ic ia ls w e r e i n v e s t i g a t in g a n u m b e r o f p o l ic e o ff ic i a ls ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n r e s p o n s e t o th a t in v e s ti g a t io n t h e r e w a s w h a t y o u w i ll r e fe r t o a s a c o u n t e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u s a y o n – y o u w i ll s a y a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t o n s p u r i o u s g r o u n d s a w h o l e i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s c o n d u c t e d a s a r e s p o n s e a n d th a t w e n t t o c o u r t a n d w a s t h e s u b je c t m a t te r o f a ju d g m e n t b y H is L o r d s h i p Mr J u s t ic e S t o c k t o n w h ic h w e w i ll d e a l w i t h t o m o r r o w. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is r i g h t. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h is is a n a p p r o p r i a t e ti m e C h a ir. I t h in k w e a ll n e e d a b r e a k . CHAIRPERSON : tomorrow 20 at Ye s w e c a n ta k e t h e – c a n a d jo u r n f o r t h e d a y. half past nine I w i ll d e l iv e r my d e c is i o n So in M r To m M o y a n e ’s a p p li c a t i o n fo r le a v e to c r o s s - e x a m in e . I w il l n o t j u s t hand down. I w i ll g iv e f u l l – r e a d th e d e c i s i o n . S o th a t m i g h t t a k e m a y b e 4 5 m i n u t e s . I p r e v io u s ly s a i d w e w o u ld s t a r t a t h a l f p a s t n i n e . S o I t h i n k t h a t c e r t a i n l y i n t e r m s o f r e s u m i n g t h e e v id e n c e o f M r Mc B r i d e I d o n o t t h i n k w e w o u ld r e s u m e i t b e f o r e 1 0 . M r Mc B r i d e y o u d o n o t n e e d t o b e h e r e b e f o r e 1 0 . Page 169 of 170 So I think 15 APRIL 2019 – DAY 83 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : J a a n d th e n o n c e w e h a v e f i n is h e d d e liv e r in g t h e d e c is i o n t h e n w e m i g h t t a k e a b r e a k a n d t h e n r e s u m e o r r e s u m e i m m e d i a t e ly. S o w e w i ll a d j o u r n u n ti l t o m o r r o w. S o w i t h th e e v i d e n c e i t w i ll b e a f te r t h e d e l iv e r y o f t h e d e c is i o n i n t h e o th e r m a t t e r. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S TO 1 6 A P R I L 2 0 1 9 Page 170 of 170