: WEST CHESTER POLICE DEPARTMENT : BUTLER COUNTY, OHIO : TRANSCRIPT OF RECORDINGS ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 1 RECORDINGS TRANSCRIBED: QUINN INTERVIEW 2-12-20. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Page 3 HERZOG INTERVIEW 2-14-20 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Page 18 REBHOLZ INTERVIEW 2-18-20. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Page 38 CHARLES INTERVIEW 2-19-20. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Page 56 GUTMAN INTERVIEW 2-21-20 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Page 64 HENSLEY INTERVIEW (1) 2-21-20. . . . . . . . . . . . Page 77 HENSLEY INTERVIEW (2) 2-21-20. . . . . . . . . . . . Page 106 RECORDING 2 1-28-20. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Page 121 RECORDING 3 1-28-20. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Page 136 2 1 QUINN INTERVIEW, FEBRUARY 12, 2020: 2 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Today is February the 2nd… 3 SERGEANT WEINGARTER: 12TH. 4 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Or February the 12th, 2020. The 5 time is 3:04 and we’re going to be talking to Mike Quinn. Here 6 in the room is Sergeant Weingartner and Paul Haering with IND. 7 This matter involves IIU20-01. Umm… what has come to our 8 attention that you found out or heard about or somehow came 9 across a Facebook posting that was made by a command staff 10 member’s . 11 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Okay. 12 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Do you recall that? 13 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Yes. 14 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Do you remember the date that 15 you learned about that or, or, and who you learned it from? 16 LIEUTENANT QUINN: I know who I learned it from. I 17 don’t recall the date. It’s probably been a couple weeks ago 18 and it was umm… I don’t even remember, I can’t remember what 19 day it would have been. Umm… I don’t know if it was soon after 20 we learned about Thomas’ disposition of his case, cause that’s 21 initially what the conversation started out with me with Rob 22 Obermeyer. And he came up to me and shut my door, and can I 23 talk about the Thomas disposition. Basically said, he had read 24 the disposition and he felt that it was good decision after he 25 read the whole case and the way that it was written out and 26 then he asked me if I saw a Facebook page… post dealing with 3 1 umm… . 2 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Did you see that post? 3 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Umm… I did not at that time. I did 4 after the fact. Umm… when I saw what he was talking about he 5 said it, he felt that it was in relation to umm… in his 6 opinion, Brent Lovell, to what she had put on there. It said 7 something about cronyism. Umm… but that’s what he told me and 8 I said, okay. He asked me if I was aware of it, I said I 9 wasn’t at the time but I said, okay, I said, is there a 10 problem, is there something going on out there. He goes no, I 11 just think this has to do with Brent Lovell. And so we didn’t 12 talk really much about that. He just kind of chuckled a little 13 bit. He’s like, yeah, you know, kind of made faces, like you 14 know, if it is about Lovell and saying cronyism does that mean 15 that deals with the Chief and whatnot. And I, I said I, no, I 16 couldn’t comment on it because of the post. So after we talked 17 I think Captain Gutman had came up into my office not soon 18 after, ten (10) minutes, fifteen (15) minutes later and I 19 actually asked him about it cause I’m thinking, okay, this is 20 something out there and I’m not sure if it’s going to stir 21 something up or what’s going on. I said, are you aware of a 22 post that 23 And I said, well Rob Obermeyer just made a comment to me about 24 this and they think it’s, deals with Sergeant Lovell and I 25 said, I don’t know if it’s a big deal, if it’s going to become 26 a big deal. And so I said, I just wanted to bring it to your … had posted. And he says, no. 4 1 attention. So, we didn’t talk much about it. He kind of asked 2 about the post. I said I haven’t seen it, apparently it’s on 3 Facebook umm… says something about cronyism. I said, but other 4 than that I haven’t seen it yet. Umm… so not, he left my 5 office and not ten (10) minutes later, fifteen (15) minutes 6 later, Captain Hensley comes in my office and says, hey, is 7 there, what did Obermeyer say about this post, Facebook 8 posting. And I said, he said that’s something that 9 posted about umm… cronyism and stuff like that and it could be had 10 dealing with the Chief, I said, but I don’t know, I haven’t 11 seen the post. And Captain Hensley just said, he goes, I don’t 12 know what it’s for, I haven’t seen the post, he goes, but 13 she’s her own woman, he goes but, I don’t know what it’s about 14 or what she had posted about. And that’s all we talked about. 15 I said, okay. So that’s the last I knew of it. And then, 16 trying to think what happened next… cause then the Chief had 17 come to me at some point in time, a day later, two (2) days 18 later and kind of pulled me out of roll, I had done roll call, 19 we were just kind of sitting there bullcrapping, he pulled me 20 out in the hallway and asked me… I’m trying to think what he 21 asked me out in the hallway… I think he, he asked me about the 22 date. He goes, when did you, when did Rob talk to you about 23 this and I said, I can’t recall because that was like a week 24 later. And I said, I knew it was last week. I couldn’t recall 25 if it was a Wednesday or Thursday or Friday umm… but I 26 couldn’t recall a specific date and he had kind of asked a 5 1 specific date. And I said, I, I don’t know. I said, I just 2 know he came up to my office which he does quite a bit umm… 3 Rob comes up and like shut the door, and I think he likes to 4 use me as a sounding board sometimes when he’s frustrated with 5 FOP stuff. Umm… so we’ll sit there and shut the door and we’ll 6 talk about all kinds of stuff. Umm… so I told him, I said, I 7 can’t give you the specific date that this occurred. Umm… but 8 then he made a comment to me, the Chief made a comment that, I 9 don’t know if he saw it or somebody told him that Mike 10 Blankenship had made a comment on the Facebook post, which I 11 was unaware of. Umm… and whatever he said, the Chief was 12 concerned about and felt the need that he needed to talk to 13 Officer Blankenship about it and him posting stuff on 14 Facebook. Umm… and that’s all he told me then. I think at some 15 point in time during all this stuff I ended up going to 16 Facebook and pulling up the Facebook post cause I’m friends 17 with and everybody on Facebook… 18 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Sure. 19 LIEUTENANT QUINN: So I pulled it up and I saw it 20 said, word of the day, cronyism, but I didn’t see any comments 21 cause this is after the Chief said Mike Blankenship had put a 22 comment. So I went there to see what kind of comment he put on 23 there. I’m like what kind of comment did Mike Blankenship put 24 on there. So I actually looked at it and it didn’t have 25 comments on there when I looked at it. So I didn’t see any 26 comments. I saw the cronyism. I don’t know if has to deal with 6 1 Brent Lovell, if it has to do with President Trump umm… and 2 stuff like that. I don’t know what all, to me, I’m not going 3 to make assumptions but that’s just Rob put that out, or he 4 thought it was in regards to Brent Lovell and I think it was 5 soon after the promotional exam came out and, and all that 6 stuff. So… 7 8 9 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Did he say why he thought it was, referred to Brent? LIEUTENANT QUINN: He didn’t actually. He just, he 10 just thought it was Brent Lovell, that they were referring to 11 Brent Lovell and cronyism. And then I’m like, I, I don’t know. 12 I don’t know why he would say that. There are people that 13 believe that there’s umm… a relationship out there. There’s 14 probably, that shouldn’t be the way it is. Umm… but that don’t 15 mean that there’s cronyism going on but I think that gives 16 everybody perception. So… 17 18 19 LIEUTENANT HAERING: When you looked at the post, did you see a date on the post? LIEUTENANT QUINN: No. No… cause usually it will say, 20 I’m trying to think if it says, usually a topic, I think a 21 timestamp sometimes it will say, posted yesterday at 7:00, 22 7:00pm. I didn’t look at it but I know it has time stamps on 23 when it was posted. Even to now, I think it is still there. 24 You can see when it was posted on Facebook. 25 26 SERGEANT WEINGARTER: But you, you don’t recall you looking at it and saying, oh, that was posted today or 7 1 yesterday? 2 LIEUTENANT QUINN: No. 3 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: You didn’t tie the… 4 LIEUTENANT QUINN: No, I actually… 5 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: The time together? 6 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Just searched, I searched her 7 name, I searched umm… 8 Facebook account and was able to go down and see all her 9 posts. So I didn’t look at the date. I just pulled up her just to pull up her 10 account, I believe you can search anybody that you’re friends 11 with and that just pulls up all their posts and you can go 12 down and look at all the posts they posted. So that’s what I 13 pulled up. I didn’t pay attention to the date or day it was 14 put on, what time they put it on. So no, I don’t, I didn’t 15 look at that. 16 17 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And umm… Gutman just happened to come by your office? 18 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Yes. He came and like I said, I 19 think that was just him coming up to talk to me about 20 something else and I brought it to his attention. 21 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay, so I guess is where I’m 22 going with this question is, you didn’t email him or any kind 23 of thing like that to where we could track down a date on 24 that? 25 26 LIEUTENANT QUINN: No, it was all verbal. He came into my office and I said, hey, we’re, I forget what he came 8 1 into my office for, we were just talking and I said, hey, are 2 you aware about a Facebook post that 3 he’s like, no. And I said well, Rob Obermeyer was just here a 4 few minutes ago. I said this Facebook post was put out there, 5 something about cronyism and that they think it has to do with 6 Brent Lovell and that, that’s, that’s verbally what I told 7 him. 8 9 10 posted. And LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay, well umm… so Rob is the one that kind of threw out… did he make any comments about anybody else post… posting on it or… making comments or… 11 LIEUTENANT QUINN: No, the first that I heard, I, he 12 didn’t say anything about comments being made on it. The first 13 time I heard about comments being made on it, I’m not saying 14 there weren’t comments on it… cause everybody comments on 15 stuff but umm… he didn’t say anything about comments. The 16 first time I heard about comments was from the Chief. He said 17 Blankenship had had a comment on it or he was made aware of… 18 and I don’t know how he was made aware of it umm… that he felt 19 was inappropriate and he didn’t tell me what he said. He said 20 there was a comment on there. And I’m like, okay, and that’s 21 why I went to look at it that night or something. I pulled it 22 up and I’m like, well what kind of comment did he make on here 23 that, that was inappropriate and that bothered the Chief. 24 25 26 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Do you know if the Chief talked to him? LIEUTENANT QUINN: I do not. The Chief, that day, 9 1 cause Blankenship was working… was he in there… the Chief made 2 a comment basically, he didn’t want to talk to him right now. 3 I think due to him being maybe a little frustrated and didn’t 4 want to, you know, broach that subject right now when it, 5 maybe it’s, it could be a personal to him. I’m just making the 6 assumption. 7 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Mm-Hm (meaning yes). 8 LIEUTENANT QUINN: He just felt like, hey, I’m not 9 going to talk to him today. I need to let a little bit of time 10 pass before I talk to him but he needs to be talked about… 11 Facebook and stuff you post and what’s inappropriate, what’s 12 appropriate and stuff like that. 13 14 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay, Obermeyer, is he on your shift? 15 16 LIEUTENANT QUINN: No. He’s on umm… day shift right now. 17 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Is he on the same off days? 18 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Umm… 19 LIEUTENANT HAERING: What I’m trying to do is narrow 20 21 down when that conversation could have happened. LIEUTENANT QUINN: I’d have to look. I don’t know. 22 I’m off day group one (1), so if that helps out… and I know I 23 was on second shift because I had just come into work and they 24 were getting off work so they’re day shift and we just 25 switched two (2) weeks ago. 26 LIEUTENANT HAERING: So you were, you were already 10 1 on… 2 LIEUTENANT QUINN: We were on seconds. 3 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Seconds. And you switched two 4 5 6 (2) weeks ago? LIEUTENANT QUINN: Yep, and it was the end of his shift when he came in and talked to me. 7 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay. 8 LIEUTENANT QUINN: And he was on day shift. 9 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Alright, so, and it, and it was 10 on, when you umm… switched to seconds? 11 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Yes, soon after. 12 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Do you remember, do you… 13 LIEUTENANT QUINN: I’m, to me honestly I, I’m 14 thinking when the Chief asked me I was kind of thinking it was 15 a Wednesday or a Thursday of that past week. Cause he asked me 16 about what day it was and I kind of was looking back last 17 week, I’m thinking, man, was it a Wednesday or Thursday. I was 18 kind of thinking that in my head for some reason. It might 19 have been a Wednesday or a Thursday that he came in but I, I 20 wasn’t sure. But that might be a way to narrow it down. He 21 might not have worked on a Wednesday and he might have worked 22 on a Thursday and I would have been there. So that, that would 23 probably be a good way to look at it. See his off day group 24 and see when he was there. But I was thinking I was like a 25 Wednesday or Thursday, end of the week. So I knew it had just 26 happened cause Chief talked to me like the first or the 11 1 following week, like a Monday or Tuesday and he asked me about 2 last week and I thought for some reason it was at the end of 3 the week, Wednesday or Thursday maybe. 4 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Is this your third week on… 5 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Yes. 6 LIEUTENANT HAERING: On seconds? 7 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Yeah, I think we switched… yeah, 8 I’ll be, I’m thinking I’m finishing up my third week on 9 seconds. 10 11 12 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay. So it would have been either last week or the week before? LIEUTENANT QUINN: It was the week before cause I 13 think the Chief talked to me last week if I’m remembering 14 everything correctly. I think he talked to me last week, maybe 15 a Monday or Tuesday which would have been a week ago, a little 16 bit over a week and I think it happened the week prior to 17 that, I think. 18 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Probably the first week. 19 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Yeah. 20 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Alright. Is there anything else 21 you can think of that can help us kind of narrow the time 22 frames down? 23 LIEUTENANT QUINN: No, I think the best way is look 24 at the off days, see if Rob is on the same off day or 25 different off day and that would probably narrow it down the 26 best that I could narrow it down to. There’s nothing that 12 1 stands out in my mind. If anything happened that day it would 2 stand in my mind what date it would have been. 3 4 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And when you umm… looked at the post, you didn’t see any comments about that… 5 LIEUTENANT QUINN: I didn’t see any comments because 6 I was trying, specifically looking at Blankenship’s comment, I 7 wanted to see what it was because the Chief just said 8 something about it. 9 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Right. 10 11 LIEUTENANT QUINN: So, and I didn’t see any comments on there. 12 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay. 13 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: So, the, you spoke to the 14 Chief like a week after the three (3) came to your office? 15 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Yes. 16 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: And, and you didn’t look at 17 the post until, when the Chief did or you looked at it once 18 before? 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 LIEUTENANT QUINN: No, I don’t think I looked at it once before. SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Or did you just look for the comments when the Chief said… LIEUTENANT QUINN: I looked for the comments when the Chief said something about the comments. SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: But you may have, but you looked at the post prior to that or you don’t remember? 13 1 LIEUTENANT QUINN: I don’t remember if I looked at it 2 prior to that. I remember specifically going to look at it 3 cause of Blankenship. I wanted to see what he posted cause I 4 knew the Chief was aggravated from it. So I didn’t know what 5 was inappropriate about it or what he, what he said. Umm… so 6 that’s why I actually specifically pulled up her account, 7 searched her name and pulled it up to see if I could see what 8 the comment was. 9 10 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: But Obermeyer and then Captain Gutman… 11 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Mm-Hm (meaning yes). 12 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: And then Captain Hensley, they 13 all came in, in a, within a half an hour of each other to, one 14 after another… 15 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Yeah. 16 SERGEANT WEINGARTER: All in the same day? 17 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Just, yeah, it was pretty, like I 18 said, probably Obermeyer was at the end of our shift and then 19 Captain Gutman walked in, he usually will make contact with me 20 on second shift to see what’s going on right before he gets 21 off at 4:00, 4:30, by the time he gets off. And, but I think 22 it was like fifteen (15) to twenty (20) minutes after 23 Obermeyer was just in there. I brought that to his attention 24 and then not long after, Captain Hensley come in my office 25 because I’m assuming Captain Gutman went and talked to Captain 26 Hensley. Cause I hadn’t talked to Captain Hensley until he 14 1 came to my office… 2 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Right. 3 LIEUTENANT QUINN: And he asked me, he said, hey, 4 what did Rob say about this posting or something like that. 5 And I told him what Rob had said and that was it. 6 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Okay. 7 LIEUTENANT QUINN: So that, that was the sequence 8 that it went. And then the Chief was the following week, he 9 pulled me out of a roll call where we were sitting, just 10 bullcrapping and made a comment, if I, asked if I could 11 remember the specific day. And I’m like I, I couldn’t… that 12 Rob came and talked to me. 13 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Mm-Hm (meaning yes). 14 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Did anyone, has anyone else 15 talked to you about that, the post or what, what they 16 interpreted that post to mean or anything since… 17 18 LIEUTENANT QUINN: I’ve not heard, I’ve not heard anything from anybody else. 19 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Okay. 20 LIEUTENANT QUINN: I heard from Rob Obermeyer but 21 I’ve not heard anybody, any other officer talking about it. 22 Umm… I’m thinking Captain… not Captain, umm… Sergeant 23 Wallraven had mentioned something to me about the post. He was 24 the only on, only other person in the police department that 25 said something about the post. Because I remember, I said it 26 to either Captain Gutman or I said it to either Captain 15 1 Hensley, I said, well, if Obermeyer knows about it and 2 Sergeant Wallraven knows about it, everybody is going to be 3 aware of it. I remember saying that because those two (2) 4 guys, I know Wallraven at some point in time had something 5 about the post. And he didn’t get into details, he just said, 6 did you see that post about 7 So, but those are the only two (2) people I’ve heard say 8 anything about a post with umm… 9 . And I’m like, no. . LIEUTENANT HAERING: So Wallraven, when do you think 10 he… but actually though… it’s really the conversation with, 11 with Gutman. So, and that was all the same… Obermeyer, Gutman 12 and Hensley… 13 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Yep. 14 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Was all the same… 15 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Same day. 16 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Time frame. 17 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Same time frame. 18 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Yes. 19 LIEUTENANT HAERING: So that’s the day we’re trying 20 to… 21 LIEUTENANT QUINN: Mm-Hm (meaning yes). 22 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Locate. Alright. And can you 23 24 think of why you brought it up to Gutman? LIEUTENANT QUINN: Umm… honestly, cause it sounded 25 like with Rob bringing it up that this was going to turn into 26 a crap show cause once everything gets started, everybody 16 1 started talking about it, it gets back to whoever it gets back 2 to, the Chief or whatnot and the Lovell and… so I brought it 3 to his attention. That’s the only reason why I did it, to say, 4 hey, did you hear about this and figured it would push up the 5 chain of command, just so they’re aware of it. 6 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Alright, any other questions? 7 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: I don’t have anything else. 8 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Alright. Umm… the, we’re going 9 10 to c… conclude this interview. The time is 3:21. THEREUPON, THE INTERVIEW WAS CONCLUDED. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 17 1 HERZOG INTERVIEW, FEBRUARY 14, 2020: 2 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Today’s date is February the 3 14th, 2020 and the time is 2:41. We are here to discuss 4 IIU2020-01. Present in the room is Chief Joel Herzog and 5 Sergeant Mark Weingartner and myself, Lieutenant Paul Haering 6 with IND. Chief, you made a complaint against Captain Jamie 7 Hensley, can you tell me in detail what your complaint is 8 regarding? 9 CHIEF HERZOG: Yes, on umm… January 28th umm… I had a 10 discussion in the Human Resources conference room about 11 expectations with Captain Hensley. In that meeting was 12 Lieutenant Colonel Rebholz, myself, Captain Hensley and umm… 13 umm… the HR manager, Tonya Charles. And at that time umm… 14 Captain Hensley was presented with a letter of expectations 15 of, of his position as a captain in the command staff, umm… 16 just to clarify some umm… what the expectations were. Umm… 17 there’s been some past issues that umm… I felt there was 18 minimal progress in and just wanted to address so he’d fully 19 understood what expectations we had and I have for the 20 position to move forward. Umm… this, what prompted this 21 initially umm… there was some, I was made aware on June or 22 January 23rd of a Facebook posting umm… that was causing some 23 disruption amongst officers and some questions were being 24 raised amongst the officers. Umm… I was told umm… either 25 before, I was told in briefing but I believe it occurred 26 before briefing umm… that would, this kind of a conversation 18 1 wouldn’t have occurred in a briefing to where it was just, 2 that they felt that this Facebook post was umm… inappropriate. 3 Umm… it showed dysfunction in the command, umm… that there was 4 umm… they were astonished that it was posted by a captain’s 5 and they thought it was obvious that this was umm… the 6 belief of the captain himself since it was coming from his 7 . Umm… once I saw the post, I, I can’t say that it 8 actually had any direct correlation to an incident at the PD 9 for sure. However, that was the perception of these officers 10 that it did coincide umm… with the posting of a umm… position 11 assignment for umm… Sergeant Lovell and Sergeant McCalla and 12 that’s where the officers’ perception were that they felt it 13 was connected. Umm… I was, I was a little upset with it just 14 for the fact that umm… umm… the disruption that we did have. 15 So that’s what prompted to have a discussion with, with 16 Captain Hensley on my expectations of him. So once he was 17 brought in umm… to this meeting umm… HR Manager umm… Tonya 18 Charles gave umm… Captain Hensley a letter to review umm… and 19 then just for our discussion. It was at that time that umm… 20 Captain Hensley asked if umm… the meeting was being recorded, 21 which I advised, no. He asked if he could record the meeting. 22 I said, yes, umm… that he could. So he umm… pulled out one of 23 his phones and recorded, started recording. Then we had a 24 conversation. During that conversation I, cause he was asking 25 umm… what prompted this and I talked to some, just talked 26 about the expectations and then I also talked about a Facebook 19 1 post umm… that was causing some disruption. Umm… I think 2 multiple times I had told him in that conversation I am not 3 umm… umm… saying that his 4 right, that’s her First Amendment right and she has those 5 rights. Umm… I’m just saying they’ve had an effect on the 6 department and the perception of the officers out there and 7 that’s what I’m concerned with and that’s what I need to 8 address. Umm… Captain Hensley was umm… immediately agitated, 9 argumentative, umm… I would say disrespectful, umm… constantly cannot post things, that’s her 10 interrupting myself and umm… the HR manager at times umm… 11 disrupting her. And I felt this was, this was obviously a very 12 emotional umm… thing. There’s umm… umm… that Captain Hensley 13 was feeling here and umm… but he, I believe he definitely took 14 it a little far with his actions and his umm… his 15 unprofessionalism and his umm… the way he spoke and 16 interrupted umm… towards me and umm… Ms. Charles. Umm… we had 17 this conversation, we lined out a couple issues. Umm… one (1) 18 was this posting and it was not that she, his 19 post this stuff, it was that the perception of and the 20 disruption it was causing in the, amongst the department and 21 how we’re going to handle this. Umm… we talked about several 22 other incidents umm… throughout this conversation umm… and 23 then we umm… at the end we ended the meeting and just so he 24 understood what expectations I had of a, as of a captain and 25 the disruption that I can’t have of him having and the 26 perceptions that were created because of this issue. Umm… when 20 could not 1 I finished that meeting, I came back to the police department. 2 Umm… myself and Lieutenant Colonel Rebholz and I called 3 Captain Gutman into my office because I wanted him aware of 4 this umm… disruption that was occurring back umm… in the 5 department and amongst the road patrol officers which he is 6 the road patrol bureau commander. It was at that time that 7 umm… I had learned that Captain Gutman was actually previously 8 aware of this umm… Facebook post, this disruption and 9 discussion that was going on out there and he had discussed 10 this with, or he was brought to his attention by Lieutenant 11 Quinn and he had had a discussion about this with umm… Captain 12 Hensley and they talked about this post and this, the 13 disruption that was occurring umm… back amongst the officers 14 and conversations that were occurring. Umm… I was a little 15 shocked at the time when umm… Captain Gutman told me he was 16 aware of it because I was, while I was shocked at the fact 17 that he didn’t feel the need to bring this forward to umm… 18 umm… Lieutenant Colonel Rebholz or myself umm… cause this 19 conversation we were having was umm… more than a week after 20 umm… after umm… the 28th. I had found out about it on the 23rd 21 and I believe that was the day they also found out about it. 22 So, it was almost a week later that they still had not brought 23 it forward. So I was, I was a little shocked at that and I, I 24 advised umm… Captain umm… Gutman how, that I was a little 25 upset that he didn’t bring it forward and he advised that he 26 just assumed that I had known. Umm… when we finished our 21 1 conversation umm… with umm… Captain Gutman, he did say 2 something that, that caused me a little concern. When Captain 3 Gutman had advised me he was aware of it and that umm… he also 4 spoke with Captain Hensley about it and Captain Hensley was 5 aware of it umm… I, where I was a little shocked is I recalled 6 Captain Hensley in our meeting in HR making a statement that 7 he was not aware of when his 8 when in fact Captain Gutman just told me that Captain Hensley 9 was aware of the post and, and information about it. So I was 10 a little shocked at that umm… so the, I just, we, I didn’t do 11 anything with it right immediately. The next day, the 12 following day at umm… on the 29th, January 29th about 1:40 I 13 umm… had umm… Lieutenant Colonel Rebholz in my office, had him 14 bring umm… Captain Hensley in and I advised Captain Hensley 15 that I would like to umm… have a copy of the tape he made umm… 16 the day prior and in accordance with our policies and 17 procedures. Captain Hensley umm… immediate response which was, 18 I would say disdained in tone was, I don’t have it, I deleted 19 it. Umm… which, I was a little shocked but I asked, I 20 repeated, you deleted it, as a question. And he said, yes. And 21 I think there was a discussion about which phone, he said his 22 personal phone and I had said that, okay, I’m going to need 23 your phone to give to Mike Sly to retrieve that umm… to 24 retrieve that recording. Umm… Captain Hensley said, I’ll get 25 you a copy, you’re not getting my phone. Umm… I advised him 26 that if I do need his phone I will get it but a copy will posted or anything about it 22 1 suffice and I need it before the end of the day. Umm… he left 2 my office at that time and he did provide me with a copy. I 3 had told him any, any way he can get a copy, whether it’s 4 digital, email, umm… disc, however you can provide it is fine. 5 So he provided me a copy before the end of the day on a thumb 6 drive. Umm… as soon as he left my office umm… I was totally 7 shocked so I had written down his quote of, I don’t have it, I 8 deleted it, because I remember looking at Lieutenant Rebholz 9 and said, he just lied to me, and he, Rebholz kind of dropped 10 his head and said, yes he did. Umm… he told me he didn’t have 11 it, he deleted it and if I would not have pressed further I 12 think that was the end of it. When I, it wasn’t until I 13 pressed further saying, I need your phone umm… that is when he 14 said, I’ll get you a copy. So that’s, that’s where I umm… felt 15 that he was 100% dishonest with me and misleading on his 16 statement that he did not have it and, and deleted it. 17 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Can, can you umm… give me 18 examples or umm… exactly what he said that made you feel that 19 he was being dis… disrespectful, what he was doing or you 20 know, kind of describe his demeanor or… 21 CHIEF HERZOG: In the umm… initial meeting in HR umm… 22 we, we’ve been working on, I’ll give you a little back story, 23 we’ve been working on some umm… interpersonal issues and 24 issues in the command staff and cooperation amongst the entire 25 command staff and office, Chief’s Office personnel. Umm… and 26 there’s been some emotional issues and I felt umm… when any 23 1 time, I won’t say anytime, I felt in this case, I’m going to 2 stick to this incident, this incident, as soon as I umm… 3 brought it up, he immediately was defensive, umm… was 4 argumentative. His tone was very stern umm… would constantly 5 interrupt to where it was, I was trying, he would ask, what 6 does this have to do with and as I’m trying to explain it was 7 umm… just constant interruption to where multiple times I had 8 had to, you know, I think I stated, Jamie, would you stop 9 interrupting me and listen. And that was, there was multiple 10 times and to where as it continued I believe I even had to, I 11 felt he was talking over me or where I had to raise my voice 12 to get my point across and I, to the point where I had to 13 address him as Captain umm… to kind of bring him down to more 14 of a respectful tone as we had this conversation umm… in the 15 HR office or conference room. His, his whole demeanor, his, 16 it’s, you know, is just a umm… I guess it’s more the tone, the 17 body language. It was just, it was, in my opinion, very 18 disrespectful and umm… out of line for a captain to be 19 speaking to the Chief of Police at that time. 20 21 22 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Can, can you describe what the body language was, was he… you know… CHIEF HERZOG: I would say very tense umm… animated 23 umm… and just, you know, when someone is upset you see them 24 you know, just get, their facial expression changes to where 25 you see a umm… kind of a umm… not, just almost like a grinding 26 your teeth upset kind of a umm… the body language that I was 24 1 2 3 4 witnessing. LIEUTENANT HAERING: And how do you feel he was displaying the disdain towards you? Was… CHIEF HERZOG: Umm… that would be the looks that I 5 was getting as he was speaking umm… just, it’s, it’s hard to, 6 you know, without sitting there on a video, you know, seeing 7 it, just a, just a, the utter, just the, the, the, just stone 8 cold looks and just, it’s hard for me to you know, put that 9 into words how when someone stares at you and just umm… the 10 conversation and the animations of their body language. It’s, 11 it’s hard for me to put that into words but just the, the 12 looks, the, you know, the facial expressions… 13 14 LIEUTENANT HAERING: But you deal with Captain Hensley all the time and you have done so for numerous years? 15 CHIEF HERZOG: Yes. 16 LIEUTENANT HAERING: This behavior at this time was 17 18 contrary to any other behavior that you’ve seen from him? CHIEF HERZOG: I have only witnessed umm… Captain 19 Hensley umm… this type of behavior, never to this level but 20 this type of behavior umm… maybe two (2) other times. This was 21 not normal office etiquette command staff behavior that I 22 witnessed today, or that day, I’m sorry. 23 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Can, can you umm… explain to me 24 how Captain Hensley was disrespectful towards HR Manager umm… 25 Ms. Charles? 26 CHIEF HERZOG: Yes, he, he had, again with her, as 25 1 she would try to explain something umm… he would interrupt 2 her. Umm… in the middle of her explanation would make comments 3 and I don’t, I’m not, I’m going from recollection whether this 4 was towards me or towards her of, this is ridiculous, this is 5 absurd, this is idiocy, umm… those kinds of statements were 6 being made as we’d be trying to explain what we’re trying to 7 accomplish here and everything. It was just a very disruptive 8 umm… umm… attitude and just basically not listening. 9 LIEUTENANT HAERING: So, explain to me how you would 10 have under normal circumstances, how you would have expected a 11 command level officer to have handled this situation? Where, 12 compare and contrast. 13 CHIEF HERZOG: Okay, umm… in a situation like this I 14 expect a, an employee to be umm… upset and defensive. Umm… I’m 15 questioning some disruption that is occurring because of their 16 . So I would expect umm… some defense and some umm… umm… 17 you know, you’re going to look out for your 18 recognize or believe that you should, you should recognize 19 where you’re at and what you can umm… what is appropriate. I 20 would expect umm… an officer not to be raising his voice to 21 the Chief, not to be interrupting the Chief, not to be 22 interrupting the HR manager and to listen. The whole goal here 23 was to set expectations and to talk through a situation when 24 in fact, it was just, it was turned very argumentative and I 25 definitely would not expect that from a command level officer. 26 Umm… I wouldn’t allow it from a line officer umm… a road but I also 26 1 patrol officer and I definitely would not expect it as you 2 move up in rank, I feel umm… you’re, you’re a higher level of 3 professionalism is expected. Umm… that did not occur here. 4 Umm… and I feel, I do feel as you move up you establish 5 relationships that maybe there can be more of a conversation 6 that occurs that might, I might not let a umm… a line officer 7 speak with, with me the way a command officer would, one on 8 one. But that was not the setting here. That was not the case 9 here. This was a, an official meeting umm… with the Chief, 10 Assistant Chief and HR Manager and I would not expect this to 11 go. I would expect it to be professional and not the way it, 12 it did end up. 13 14 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Umm… you were confronting him about one (1) of the issues being a post. 15 CHIEF HERZOG: Mm-Hm (meaning yes). 16 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Umm… do you know or do you have 17 a copy of that and does it have a date on it or do you know 18 the date that that was potentially posted? 19 CHIEF HERZOG: I do have a copy umm… I did and I’m 20 not sure if it has a date on it. Umm… I don’t believe it has a 21 date on it but I believe the date was on or about January 18th, 22 was the date it was posted. 23 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Let me see that Chief. It 24 doesn’t have a date on it but it does, it does, it does say 25 Saturday, if the 18th is a Saturday. 26 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Yeah, we can, we can verify 27 1 that. 2 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Saturday at 16:42. 3 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay. 4 CHIEF HERZOG: And I would have, that would have been 5 sent to me on the 23rd. Umm… so it, for it, in order for it to 6 say Saturday it would have had to have been the week prior 7 umm… because if it was… it was further back it would have the 8 date not the day of the week. 9 LIEUTENANT HAERING: So you received that on the 23rd? 10 CHIEF HERZOG: Yes. 11 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay, so then we can back track 12 13 14 15 that. SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Right. Chief, umm… was, were there any comments attached to this? CHIEF HERZOG: That is all I received that was there. 16 Umm… I’m not aware of comments. There was umm… umm… and I 17 don’t know the proper terminology, if they’re likes or umm… 18 loves or whatever, whatever, there was some of those umm… 19 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Yes, I see that. 20 CHIEF HERZOG: Umm… but I don’t know, I don’t know 21 the terminology but as far as comment, that’s the only thing I 22 was received of… 23 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Okay. 24 CHIEF HERZOG: That was sent to me. Umm… I’m not a 25 26 Facebook umm… guru. LIEUTENANT HAERING: Alright. So getting back to the 28 1 initial meeting in HR, the, on the 28th, that’s where, when you 2 were talking and asking him and discussing this post, that’s 3 where Captain Hensley said that he was not aware of the post? 4 CHIEF HERZOG: Yes. Umm… when we were talking about 5 that specific one (1), was the one (1) we were discussing umm… 6 that specific one (1) that I believe was posted on the 18th, 7 was the one that he made a statement umm… I’m not aware of 8 when she posted or anything about it. 9 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And then it was later that day 10 when you were talking to Captain Gutman that you learned that 11 he actually did know about it because Captain Gutman had 12 talked to umm… Captain Hensley about it and Captain Hensley 13 went in turn and talked to Mike Quinn about it, Lieutenant 14 Mike Quinn? 15 CHIEF HERZOG: That’s correct. 16 LIEUTENANT HAERING: I got that… 17 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: I, I’m sorry, I was, I didn’t 18 hear what you said, umm… are those, those conversations all 19 took place on the 23rd we believe, that umm… we believe that 20 Mike Quinn, Lieutenant Quinn and then umm… Captain Gutman and 21 Captain Hensley all had conversations about the post on the 22 23rd? 23 CHIEF HERZOG: I believe. I don’t know the exact date 24 that umm… Captain Gutman… Gutman and Captain Hensley and 25 Lieutenant Quinn had conversations but umm… I was, I was under 26 the assumption if it was not the 23rd it was the 24th, that it 29 1 was that week prior. Umm… the 23rd was a Thursday umm… so for, 2 in order for umm… Captain Hensley to go talk to Lieutenant 3 Quinn it had to either be the 23rd or, I don’t know if he 4 worked the 24th or not umm… but at some point prior to the umm… 5 umm… meeting in HR that obviously had occurred because Captain 6 Gutman advised me that it did. 7 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: And then, did you, you, did 8 you have conversation with umm… Lieutenant Quinn, asking him 9 about his conversation with umm… umm… Captain Gutman? 10 CHIEF HERZOG: I had spoke with Lieutenant Quinn and 11 asked him umm… if this was brought to his attention umm… and 12 he advised he, he was aware of it and that umm… he remembered 13 speaking with umm… going to Captain Gutman with it and wasn’t 14 sure about umm… didn’t believe he went to Captain Hensley 15 about it. I later learned from Lieutenant Quinn that umm… as 16 he was trying to recall he said he, he had brought it to Lieu… 17 Captain Gutman and then it was his understanding Captain 18 Gutman umm… spoke with Captain Hensley about it and then 19 Captain Hensley brought it to Lieutenant Quinn. 20 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Okay. 21 CHIEF HERZOG: Is my understanding as how that 22 transpired. 23 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Okay. 24 CHIEF HERZOG: And I don’t know for sure what, if 25 26 that was the 23rd or 24th or umm… what day that was. LIEUTENANT HAERING: So, can you explain to me how, 30 1 once a command officer would have learned about a situation 2 like this, how they should have appropriately handled it? 3 CHIEF HERZOG: Umm… yes, umm… once, umm… they were 4 made aware of this situation, obviously umm… it was brought to 5 the Lieutenant, who the Lieutenant brought it forward to the 6 Captain like it should, coming up the chain. Umm… that captain 7 should have brought it forward either to Lieutenant Colonel 8 Rebholz or myself to make us aware of the incident umm… 9 involving, especially since it, there was another captain and 10 another command staff member involved, it should have been 11 brought to our attention. Umm… it wasn’t, it was brought to 12 the attention of the Bureau Commander, Captain Hensley, who 13 was involved or his 14 did anybody bring, make us aware of the disruption that was 15 occurring umm… out amongst the officers. 16 was involved in this and at no point LIEUTENANT HAERING: So, when it comes down to the 17 post, your original meeting with Captain Hensley on the 28th, 18 he told you he didn’t know anything about the post or when she 19 posted it, or so forth. And then on that afternoon let’s say, 20 you talked to Captain Gutman and that’s when you learned he 21 did know about it? 22 CHIEF HERZOG: Yes. Umm… I had, my meeting with 23 Captain Hensley and HR was in the afternoon. I believe it was 24 umm… 3:30 in the afternoon is when the meeting umm… in HR was 25 and I had left that meeting umm… you know, roughly 4:15, 4:30 26 or something and came straight back from HR to the police 31 1 department and immediately spoke with umm… Captain Gutman 2 about that. 3 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Umm… so the, the next day after 4 you learned this, you called Captain umm… Hensley back into 5 your office and who was present then, then? 6 7 CHIEF HERZOG: Umm… myself, Lieutenant Colonel Rebholz and Captain Hensley. 8 9 10 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And at that point that’s when you asked to have a, have a copy of the recording from the previous meeting the day before? 11 CHIEF HERZOG: That’s correct. 12 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And at that point, that’s when 13 umm… Captain Hensley told you, I don’t have it, I deleted it? 14 CHIEF HERZOG: Correct. 15 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Alright, and then you pressed 16 him on that issue as far as, okay, umm… then I need your 17 phone, umm… and I was going to, you were going to take it to 18 Michael Sly who has the capabilities to download the 19 information and retrieve information off the phone? 20 CHIEF HERZOG: That’s correct. I believe I even said, 21 I’m taking, I’ll need, need it to give to Mike Sly for 22 recovery. 23 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And then after you started to 24 umm… press Captain Hensley on that issue, that’s when he said, 25 I will get you a copy, you’re not have… umm… taking my phone? 26 CHIEF HERZOG: Correct. 32 1 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Even though we do have a policy 2 that clearly states that even if it’s a personal phone used 3 for business work we can at any time take that phone and 4 analyze it? 5 CHIEF HERZOG: Yes. 6 LIEUTENANT HAERING: So during that conversation you 7 felt that Captain Hensley was again, dishonest by, by reason 8 of saying, I, I deleted it and then after he was pressed he 9 said, I’ll get you a copy? 10 CHIEF HERZOG: Yes, that’s accurate. 11 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Do you, do you feel that during 12 that transaction between the two (2) of you umm… do you feel 13 that you ordered Captain Hensley to turn over the phone or do 14 you think the order was implied by virtue of our policy that’s 15 already in place? 16 CHIEF HERZOG: Umm… it was not an outright, I’m 17 ordering you to give me my phone, I believe it was implied 18 with me stating I, I need a copy, I’d like to get a copy of 19 that. Umm… with his defiance of umm… I don’t have it, or with 20 his, I don’t have it, I deleted it umm… like I said, I was 21 kind of shocked that he deleted something so quickly umm… you 22 know, when our, when our policy states, if you make a 23 recording it technically is supposed to be downloaded umm… 24 onto the department umm… media before the end of the day I 25 believe it is or within twenty-four (24) hours. Umm… so I was 26 a little shocked at that but yes, I think umm… it was 33 1 definitely implied that I am, I am asking or I am… I am 2 telling him I want a copy of that. It wasn’t you know, it was 3 an implied order. And I think he, you know, I, I got to say I, 4 the defiance of you’re not getting my personal phone or my 5 phone, I don’t remember if he said personal phone or phone, 6 umm… I believe it was, you’re not getting my personal phone, 7 umm… that, I was a little shocked at that statement. Umm… but 8 again, I didn’t want to, I’m not going to take somebody’s 9 personal phone even, just cause a policy says. The only thing 10 I need is a copy of that statement. So if he’s able to provide 11 it, that’s why I didn’t say, no, you’re giving me your phone. 12 13 14 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Can you umm… describe how umm… Captain Hensley’s demeanor was during this interaction? CHIEF HERZOG: Umm… yes, it was, it was almost like a 15 light switch. As soon as umm… umm… I asked for a copy of that 16 phone, cause we had some conversation umm… he was in my office 17 maybe a minute umm… beforehand and it was a lighthearted 18 conversation I was having with Lieutenant Colonel umm… Rebholz 19 and Captain Hensley engaged. And the minute that I said, okay, 20 the reason I’m bringing you in here is, is I want to get a 21 copy of that. It was like a light switch and it was immediate 22 challenging of, I don’t have it. It was not a statement. It 23 was almost like a demand, I don’t have it, you know, I deleted 24 it, I don’t have it. It was, it was a definite change of tone 25 and behavior. 26 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And, and with regard to his 34 1 statements you feel that umm… he was being dishonest regarding 2 that? 3 CHIEF HERZOG: Absolutely. 4 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay. Is there anything else you 5 6 want to add that you can think of? CHIEF HERZOG: The only thing I would add is during 7 our conversation in HR umm… Captain Hensley had asked several 8 times, you know, of examples and there was other issues 9 discussed umm… umm… that have, that are disruptions and umm… 10 some had to do with posts of his 11 again, like I said, multiple times I told him there’s, I’m not 12 asking her to stop. I’m not, I have no control over her 13 Facebook posts, however, her posts can have an effect on the 14 department and that was what I was trying to reiterate with 15 him, is the fact that she has that first amendment right but 16 it is causing disruption. That is what I was trying to get at 17 with this. And there was some other issues discussed umm… some 18 of which aren’t on the tape that was made. I think the tape 19 had cut out at one point and he had to restart up. There was 20 an issue discussed where he attended an event that I felt he 21 should have made me aware that he was attending the event just 22 as a courtesy because he would have been umm… identified as a 23 West Chester Police Captain at this event or he was identified 24 as. Umm… that I felt either before or even after, after he 25 felt that, oh yeah, I was identified and introduced as a 26 Captain of the West Chester Police, that I should have been Facebook. Umm… which 35 1 made aware. Those were the kinds of expectations I was trying 2 to set umm… in this meeting. Umm… but it, it, it was just 3 very, very argumentative umm… instead of being a umm… 4 expectation coaching session. It just became very adversarial. 5 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Umm… I know that you said that 6 umm… when you became aware of the Facebook post on the 23rd 7 that umm… and I know that in your umm… in a recording your 8 interview with umm… Captain Hensley, you listed several umm… 9 things that officers said of how this was negatively affecting 10 the police department, umm… how many or umm… how many, how 11 many officers came to you or had concerns about, about that 12 post? 13 CHIEF HERZOG: I had one (1) come forward and I spoke 14 with two (2). Umm… I did not go further out to speak with the 15 others that were involved in the conversation as I didn’t want 16 to add to this whole conversation. Cause sometimes there might 17 be a conversation that occurs and it blows up and then I 18 didn’t want to fan the fire. Umm… so I, I had spoken with two 19 (2) officers umm… about the post and some things were said. 20 One (1) had no knowledge of what was said, umm… he was just 21 aware of the post. The other one was involved in conversations 22 of, of the, the disrupt… what was, the conversations about the 23 post. 24 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Okay. 25 LIEUTENANT HAERING: You got anything else? 26 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: No, I don’t. 36 1 2 3 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Alright, then we’re going to end this interview. The time is 3:16. THEREUPON, THE INTERVIEW CONCLUDED. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 37 1 REBHOLZ INTERVIEW, FEBRUARY 18, 2020: 2 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Today’s date is February the 3 18th, 2020, the time is 1:50. Those present are Lieutenant 4 Colonel Brian Rebholz, Sergeant Matt Tombragel and myself, 5 Lieutenant Paul Haering from the IND Section. We are here 6 today to discuss IIU2020-01. Colonel on January 28th, 2020, 7 Chief Herzog, HR Manager Tonya Charles, Captain Jamie Hensley 8 and yourself had a meeting, is that correct? 9 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: That’s correct. 10 11 12 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Tell me what the meeting was about. LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Umm… Colonel Herzog had 13 umm… he had some concerns and some issues and umm… he wanted 14 to bring that with Jamie, with Captain Hensley and he wanted 15 to bring that up through umm… or with HR and HR was obviously 16 aware. So HR had drafted a umm… a memo or a letter umm… for 17 Jamie to read about expectations basically, what the Chief’s 18 expectations were. 19 20 21 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Umm… can you tell me basically what transpired, what came up during that meeting? LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: The meeting started out 22 umm… with umm… HR. I think Tonya had initiated conversation 23 and umm… presented umm… Captain Hensley with the memo or the 24 letter. And he read the letter and umm… had discussed at some 25 point that he wanted to record the conversation. He was 26 clearly upset when he read this letter and wanted to record 38 1 the conversation. And obviously HR and the Chief had no 2 concerns with him recording the conversation. So umm… that’s 3 in fact what he did. I’m sure you guys heard that, heard that 4 conversation as well. Umm… as the Chief began to explain umm… 5 the situation, what his expectations were, things of that 6 nature umm… Captain Hensley umm… obviously upset umm… started 7 to interrupt, umm… repeatedly, whether it was the Chief or 8 Tonya Charles was talking. Umm… in my personal opinion it umm… 9 came across as disrespectful. Umm… he interrupted anytime the 10 Chief or Tonya tried to get a word in to umm… discuss anything 11 with him and umm… was just very defensive in his, not only in 12 what he said but in his body language. 13 LIEUTENTANT HAERING: So, so let’s start with the 14 umm… being disrespectful. Is there any particular thing he 15 said or was it more the interruptions umm… you explain to me. 16 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Yeah, it was… number one 17 (1), you know, if somebody is going to be confronted about 18 something I think the natural tendency is to be defensive. 19 Umm… so there’s a level of expectation with that. But the 20 discussion that he’s having is with HR and with the Chief of 21 Police and when he continually interrupts, not only the Chief 22 but HR umm… there’s umm… you know, in my personal opinion as 23 being the fly on the wall so to speak, sitting in the room, it 24 was, man let the, let him talk, let the Chief talk, let him 25 get out what needs to come across. And he just wasn’t having 26 any of that. And umm… you know, at one point, I mean he was 39 1 obviously upset and umm… had explained that or had stated that 2 it was idiocy and at that point I think the Chief had had 3 pretty much enough and had referred to umm… Jamie as Captain. 4 He referred to him as Jamie but he also umm… referred to him 5 as Captain and I think that was a very clear sign that he was 6 now being called out, look, you’re, you’re a little bit over 7 the top right now. I’ll accept a certain level but now you’re 8 over the top with umm… with what he was doing, his behavior 9 and, and the attitude that he expressed in the conversation. 10 So… 11 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Can you describe his demeanor as 12 in his body language or what… what you were reading from that? 13 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Yeah, I’ll, for me 14 personally and just some of the things that he said and the 15 way he said it, the body language umm… he maintained eye 16 contact with the Chief which is not uncommon but with the eye 17 contact, the umm… the way he continued to interrupt, his body 18 language, I referred to it as disdain. I said, and I even told 19 the Chief after the fact, I said, he has got a tremendous 20 amount of disdain towards you. And it’s just umm… that 21 disrespect, challenging a position that he took or which was 22 umm… apparent or relayed to me as he spoke to the Chief… not 23 only the Chief but to HR. Umm… it was just not indicative of 24 Jamie Hensley, the Jamie Hensley that I know and I relayed 25 that as much to him. 26 LIEUTENANT HAERING: You know how when umm… as police 40 1 officers we read people’s body language and we start to 2 describe certain traits, you know, as far as those preattack 3 indicators… at, can you describe any kind of indicators that, 4 that he was displaying that would cause you to believe that 5 that disdain was there? I mean I’m trying to get, verbalize 6 what you were seeing. 7 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Umm… I don’t, I don’t 8 know, you know, that it’s necessarily a preattack indicator. I 9 never got that impression… 10 LIEUTENANT HAERING: No, I’m, I… I’m not, yeah, I’m 11 not saying that. I’m just trying to get, okay, we’re calling 12 it disdain, was there body language that displayed that? 13 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Yeah, I mean it was just 14 his, his body language, he was not, he was, he was taking up 15 the offense, if that makes any sense to you. He was taking up 16 the offense in this conversation and he wasn’t going to have 17 any, any of what the Chief had that he was saying. He was, 18 when the Chief brought up about umm… his umm… the posting that 19 his 20 the officers in this organization, umm… he was, he was 21 shutting that down. And it was, and naturally he’s going to 22 defend his 23 that defense… it wasn’t the defense of, you know, standing up 24 for your 25 some sort of opinion as to why. It was complete denial. Umm… 26 it didn’t happen, or if it did happen he’s completely unaware made and that the perception that was perceived by and I have no issue with that whatsoever but which we expect him to do but then offer up 41 1 of it and it just an offensive approach that umm… I’m just, 2 I’m just not going to have any of this. I’m not going to hear 3 it. Umm… it’s, it is idiocy in his terms umm… that we even 4 came to this conclusion or that the Chief and HR came to this 5 conclusion umm… and that was, that was pretty much it. It was 6 a solid defensive posture. 7 8 9 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Is there more you can describe about his tone? LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Umm… he’s, Jamie is not 10 a yeller so to speak, you know what I mean. He won’t, he 11 doesn’t raise his voice per say but he’s umm… once he, once he 12 got on his track he was on his track and he wasn’t going to 13 break stride. So when he started to get out his, whatever 14 statement he wanted to get out there was nothing stopping that 15 statement. So that tone, while it wasn’t an elevated tone, it 16 was a very persistent tone. 17 LIEUTENANT HAERING: From what I understand the, the 18 umm… Chief asked about a posting, do you remember what Jamie’s 19 response was regarding that post? 20 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: He had no knowledge of 21 it. It was a post about his 22 put on about cronyism… right? The posting that was 23 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Cronyism, yes 24 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he had 25 no knowledge of that. Umm… his 26 wants. That was completely reiterated by, not only the Chief can post whatever she 42 1 but by HR that that’s a, that’s an amendment right that she 2 has and she’s absolutely umm… privy to do that. So, but he had 3 no knowledge of it. 4 5 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Do you have any questions about that? 6 SERGEANT TOMBRAGEL: In the context of Captain 7 Hensley saying he had no knowledge of this Facebook post made 8 by his 9 know about the post in general, or when did he know or when 10 11 12 , was he ever asked a direct question as to, did he did hear, hear about the post? LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: No, as, as far as I recall he had no knowledge of that posting. 13 SERGEANT TOMBRAGEL: And how did… 14 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: It wasn’t, he didn’t, he 15 had no knowledge of the posting, umm… it wasn’t his 16 responsibility. He doesn’t have Facebook. Umm… his 17 doesn’t have to get permission or seek permission, things 18 along that line. So… 19 SERGEANT TOMBRAGEL: So you interpreted his comment 20 to mean what you just said, that he had no prior knowledge of 21 it, this is the first he’s heard of it and he’s addressing 22 this the best he can at that meeting? 23 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: That’s correct and… 24 SERGEANT TOMBRAGEL: Okay. 25 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: And if he had any 26 knowledge of it, I would assume that he would have shared that 43 1 knowledge. But no, at that time of that conversation he had no 2 knowledge of the posting, it’s content or anything that his 3 4 5 6 posts for that matter because he doesn’t have Facebook. LIEUTENANT HAERING: Yeah, and he was just being defensive regarding that post, is that correct? LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Yeah, I would, yeah, he 7 was in defense of that. He had no knowledge of it and he was 8 obviously defending his 9 and that’s, that’s accurate. 10 11 . His could do what she wants LIEUTENANT HAERING: So after that meeting on that day were you present when the Chief talked to Captain Gutman? 12 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: I was. 13 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Can you tell us what that 14 conversation was about? 15 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Yeah, the intent was to 16 get with umm… Captain Gutman and make sure, because obviously 17 we just come out of this conversation with Captain… Captain 18 Hensley which obviously was heated. Umm… I will say he did 19 walk that back a little bit towards the end of the 20 conversation at HR umm… Jamie did. But umm… we wanted to make 21 sure that Joe was aware of it. Obviously, those two (2) guys 22 talk but it was also just to make sure that he was aware that 23 we had had a conversation with Jamie and just make sure that 24 he was umm… prepared so to speak that hey, just an FYI, this 25 is going on in the office. So just expect that you’re going to 26 hear something about it. Umm… during that conversation that’s 44 1 when we found out that Captain Hensley did in fact know about 2 the posting and not only did he know about it but he spoke to 3 Captain Gutman about it a week prior. Which then caused me 4 umm… tremendous amount of concern because that’s not, that 5 wasn’t any part of the topic of discussion in HR just previous 6 to that. 7 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Umm… and that was the, right 8 after the meeting and then did umm… Captain Gutman tell you 9 how he learned about it? 10 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Yeah, I believe umm… I, 11 I believe Officer Obermeyer told Lieutenant Quinn and 12 Lieutenant Quinn then brought it to the attention of Captain 13 Gutman if I remember correctly. 14 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And, and do you umm… do you 15 recall what Captain Gutman said he, the conversation was with 16 Captain Hensley regard… regarding that post? 17 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Yeah, no, I don’t 18 remember all the details of the conversation but I just, I 19 just know that at the time when he had mentioned that I just, 20 I looked over at the Chief and it was just one of those… I 21 just refer to it as like a telepathic type thing, we just 22 looked at each other and knew, seriously… we just came out of 23 this conversation with Jamie. He never mentioned anything 24 about that. So when Joe told us that he had this conversation 25 with Jamie the week prior… and I don’t remember exactly when 26 the week prior but it was the week prior… Jamie was aware of 45 1 that conversation when he came into the, to the meeting at HR. 2 That’s what that conversation with Joe Gutman clarified is 3 that he did in fact have knowledge of this posting and not 4 only did have the knowledge of that posting but he had a 5 discussion with somebody. Because I found out subsequent to 6 that, that he circled back and talked to Mike Quinn about it 7 personally. So he had a conversation with Joe Gutman and then 8 circled back and had a conversation with Mike Quinn about it. 9 So a week prior to the conversation or at least a week, 10 sometime in that time frame prior to the conversation in HR. 11 That topic never came up and that could have been easily 12 clarified in that conversation in HR. 13 14 LIEUTENANT HAERING: So what conclusion did you draw at that point? 15 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Jamie told us in the 16 meeting in HR, he had no knowledge of that posting, no 17 knowledge. He doesn’t have Facebook. He doesn’t approve what 18 his 19 out and then we go to this conversation with Captain Gutman 20 and he tells us what he tells us. So now my impression is, 21 Jamie is lying to us and he’s hiding something and why is he 22 doing that. Because this is a conversation that at the time in 23 HR, when he saw that letter and this topic came up, could have 24 very easily said, Chief, I know exactly what this is about, 25 let me shed a little light on this and let me clarify this 26 right now. But he didn’t, he dug in, stood his ground, puts out, has no knowledge of the posting that went 46 1 defended the topic of discussion and walked on the Chief, 2 talked over him, threw out a level of disrespect that I think 3 is uncalled for and, and here we sit. 4 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay, yeah… so on January the 5 29th, this is the day after that, the Chief, Captain Hensley 6 and yourself had another meeting… 7 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: That’s correct. 8 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And what did you discuss at that 9 10 time? LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Umm… during that meeting 11 umm… the Chief had indicated to me prior that he wanted to 12 call Jamie in and get the umm… cause Jamie had made a, a tape 13 recording of the conversation in HR. Umm… he had indicated 14 that he wanted to get a copy of the tape which obviously I 15 agreed with that, and umm… to call Jamie in and we were going 16 to get, ask Jamie for a copy of the tape. So we call umm… 17 Captain Hensley in and he’s umm… his demeanor was pretty 18 normal, comes into the Chief’s office and when the Chief asks 19 him about this recording he immediately states umm… I don’t 20 have it, I deleted it. I was sitting off to the side and when 21 he said that, because in my personal opinion when he made the 22 recording the day before I thought, that didn’t, me 23 personally, I didn’t think that went in his direction. I 24 wouldn’t want it. You know what I mean, or I would have no 25 need for it at that point but when he said, I don’t, I don’t 26 have it, I deleted it, I thought, okay, well that makes 47 1 complete sense because I didn’t think it, it went in his favor 2 or his direction in the first place, you know what I mean. So 3 that wasn’t a big surprise that he deleted it. I just figured 4 he'd think after that conversation, you know what, this is 5 done and over with, we’re just going to march forward and be 6 finished with it. But umm… the Chief follows up right after 7 with, well, let’s, let’s get your phone to Mike, Mike Sly 8 because I want to get a copy of that and he instantly… you’re 9 not getting my phone, you’re not getting my phone. And the 10 Chief says, oh, I’m getting your phone and pointed out policy 11 or something along those lines, wanted the phone and he says, 12 umm… I don’t know if he said you’re not getting my phone, 13 again, I don’t know if he repeated it but he said, I’ll get 14 you a copy. As soon as he said, I’ll get you a copy, I 15 thought, oh no, he had just stated he don’t have it, I deleted 16 it. And now he’s going to get him a copy. I thought what in 17 the world are you doing. And ultimately, he got a copy for the 18 Chief. So… 19 20 21 LIEUTENANT HAERING: So, explain to me how you felt about that. LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: I thought he just lied 22 to the Chief. He… if the Chief didn’t ask him, well I want to 23 get this to Mike Sly, if the Chief would have just dropped it 24 like I did in my mind when he said, I don’t have it, I deleted 25 it. I was like, well, I totally expected that but the Chief 26 follows up with, I want it, I’m going to get it, we need to 48 1 get it to Mike and Mike’s going to recover that for us and he, 2 when he said that I thought, man you just, you just can’t 3 recall that. You know what I mean, you cannot recall that. If 4 the Chief didn’t ask that question and he dropped it we would 5 all be under the impression that that tape was deleted and it 6 was gone. It was unavailable but that wasn’t the case. When he 7 pushed about the phone, Jamie got defensive. It was the same 8 demeanor that happened the day before in the HR, then he 9 blurts out, you’re not going to get my phone. And then states, 10 11 12 13 I’ll get you a copy. And I thought that’s, man, you just… SERGEANT TOMBRAGEL: Did, did anyone ask him where he was going to retrieve the copy from, was that ever specified? LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: I don’t, I don’t 14 remember if he did or not. I just know that the Chief offered 15 up any resource that we have in the department to get that, 16 get that copy, whether it was a thumb drive or Mike or 17 whatever the case might be. It, I don’t think he, I don’t 18 think he persisted. If he did it just when right in one ear 19 and out the other but… 20 21 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Did you… once Captain Hensley got the recording… 22 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Mm-Hm (meaning yes). 23 LIEUTENANT HAERING: To the Chief, did you listen to 24 the recordings? 25 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: I did. Yep. 26 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Can you explain for those on the 49 1 outside, what happened that caused there to be two (2) 2 recordings of that one (1) meeting. And, and to even go 3 further that the, the first recording seems to start well into 4 the meeting. 5 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Yeah, it wasn’t that far 6 into the meeting, I don’t think, because it was pretty quick. 7 And he, did he mention he was going to get an attorney? Was 8 that on the tape? 9 10 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Mm-Hm (meaning yes). LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Alright, it was, it was 11 sometime right before, right around that time frame because it 12 was pretty quick umm… that he, and I’m, I’m talking minutes, I 13 mean it was very quick that he said he wanted an attorney and 14 he wanted to record, or he wanted to record it and he wanted 15 to get an attorney. I don’t remember the exact order but the 16 point is, is that the tape recording came up very quick in the 17 conversation. So I don’t know that there was too much missed. 18 Umm… I think his, probably his initial umm… dissatisfaction 19 with being called in for this meeting umm… was probably missed 20 but I think the bulk of the content was there. Umm… some of 21 the stuff that was missed was umm… umm… 22 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Do you, do you know what caused… 23 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Yeah, that was umm… 24 apparently, now this is what Jamie said, that his, I guess his 25 called in and disrupted the recording at the time I guess 26 maybe the phone call overrode the recording. I don’t, I don’t 50 1 know how that works but I’m assuming that’s, that’s what he 2 told me. I have no reason not to believe him. So… 3 4 LIEUTENANT HAERING: With that being the case do you… is there anything missing that… 5 SERGEANT TOMBRAGEL: Anything of substance missing? 6 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Yeah, that changes… 7 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: I, I think at the time 8 umm… the topic of discussion was, cause the Chief was going 9 over a couple different topics with him and umm… explanations 10 about umm… an example, let me give you an example, was the 11 Chief’s response. And one of those was umm… umm… you know, 12 just Jamie’s behavior in the office up in the front office and 13 umm… not letting him know certain things. Well one of the umm… 14 events that Jamie had attended was a black-tie event down in 15 Cincinnati and he was with the umm… the West Chester’s 16 Citizen’s Police Academy umm… President. Umm… he was down 17 there with him and had a pic… and I don’t know who he went 18 with but anyway, he was down there, had a picture umm… that 19 was posted and it was the CPA President and it was umm… Jamie 20 and the Cincinnati Police Chief and of course it’s a black-tie 21 event… well we never heard anything about that. So the 22 assumption is, is that he’s down there as, cause you’re 23 talking to the CPA Alumni President and the Cincinnati Police 24 umm… Chief, that there’s some association or a connection or a 25 link to the police department and Jamie’s position. And the 26 Chief had asked about that and umm… Jamie’s umm… was, opinion 51 1 about that was that that’s his private life and he can do as 2 he chooses in his private life and umm… and the Chief doesn’t 3 disagree with that but the point is, is that he’s making a 4 nexus to the police department and being down there as a 5 police officer umm… for West Chester Township. And I think 6 Jamie disagreed with that but that’s, you know, when Joel 7 finds out later on that hey, I was with one of your captains 8 or I saw one of your captains at the black-tie event umm… you 9 know, that’s obviously, there’s a question about that and that 10 was an example that he was putting out. And I think that’s 11 what was missing off of that tape. How much of that 12 conversation was missing, I don’t, I don’t recall. But I think 13 that was a portion of it that was missing. 14 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Yeah, I believe the, the first 15 tape, excuse me, ends with the Chief talking and then the 16 second one picks up with you talking. So I think that’s… 17 probably pretty accurate as far as what’s missing on that… 18 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Mm-Hm (meaning yes). 19 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Tape. Is there anything further 20 21 you’d like to… LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: No, I’ll tell you, in 22 looking back though umm… and this is one of the things that’s 23 kind of, I had asked Jamie at, during that interview or that 24 meeting at HR, to separate himself from the current situation, 25 take himself out of it. How would you handle this situation 26 when it’s brought to your attention that one of umm… you know, 52 1 one of the 2 disruption in the organization and how would you handle that? 3 How would you respond to that? And he answered the question in 4 how he would respond to that but I think after the fact, and 5 at the time I didn’t think too much of it because that was his 6 opinion and this is what he thought he would do. He would go 7 out and he would inquire and you know, put people at ease and 8 things of that nature as to umm… you know, what transpired and 9 he made umm… umm… reference to, you know, this is just an have posted something and it’s causing a 10 ambiguous post and it doesn’t mean anything. It can mean, it 11 can mean anything. And so then you fast forward, and at the 12 time it’s okay, that’s an acceptable response, okay, I just, 13 to get your opinion on how you would handle that or how you 14 would resolve this situation, he didn’t bring anything up 15 about what the actual post was, and, which is fine, but, and I 16 think well, if his 17 there would, well, okay, maybe I am aware of that or if it… 18 she made a post about her employer or politics or something, 19 you think that would, maybe that would be part of a 20 conversation between the two (2) of you at some point in time. 21 You know, hey, you know what’s going on at work or umm… you 22 know, hey, with politics or the president, whatever… you would 23 think there would be some sort of discussion about that post 24 in some way, shape or form, you know what I mean. Because it 25 was a pretty long post but that never came up and I thought, 26 okay, it, is just never came up. He never had that discussion. 53 made a post and you would just think 1 But fast forward to later on after that meeting and we talked 2 to Joe Gutman and Joe Gutman confirms for us that, no Jamie 3 was aware of it, that I had a conversation with him and then I 4 find out later that he did circle back and go meet up with 5 Mike Quinn. Why was not, he had an answer to that probably 6 because he had already looked into this. So the hypothetical 7 that I gave him was a scenario that he had already played out. 8 So he had much more information about that but that 9 information wasn’t relayed. Why did he not bring that up? Was 10 it in fact related to umm… the positioning of personnel within 11 this organization? Why was he hiding it? 12 13 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Do you have any further questions? 14 SERGEANT TOMBRAGEL: Umm… the reference to letter 15 that Captain Hensley was presented at the HR office, who 16 drafted that letter and who can provide us a copy? Do you 17 know? 18 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Yeah, HR drafted it. 19 SERGEANT TOMBRAGEL: And same thing with the Facebook 20 post, do you know of anyone that has a copy of those posting 21 comments? 22 23 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Do you know who has it, I guess… 24 SERGEANT TOMBRAGEL: Okay. 25 LIEUTENANT HAERING: The Chief’s got it. 26 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: I would assume the 54 1 Chief’s got it, yeah. 2 SERGEANT TOMBRAGEL: Alright, that’s all I have. 3 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay. We’re going to end the 4 5 interview. The time is 2:18. THEREUPON, THE INTERVIEW WAS CONCLUDED. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 55 1 CHARLES INTERVIEW, FEBRUARY 19, 2020: 2 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Today’s date is February the 3 19th, 2020, the time is 2:11. This is in reference to IIU2020- 4 01. Those present are HR Manager, Ms. Tonya Charles, Sergeant 5 Weingartner and myself, Lieutenant Paul Haering with the IND 6 Section. Ms. Charles on January the 28th, 2020, Chief Herzog, 7 Lieutenant Colonel Brian Rebholz, Captain James Hensley and 8 yourself were involved in a meeting to talk about expectations 9 for Captain Hensley, is that correct? 10 MS. CHARLES: Yes it is. 11 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Tell me how the meeting started. 12 MS. CHARLES: Umm… let’s see… the Chief and 13 Lieutenant Colonel and myself were in the office, down here in 14 the conference room and then they called for Captain Hensley 15 to come over from the police station to have this meeting. 16 Umm… Lieutenant… I’m sorry, Captain Hensley arrived and I 17 explained to him what this meeting was about. Again, it was to 18 talk about expectations umm… just what the Chief’s 19 expectations were for his captains and specifically, Captain 20 Hensley. Umm… I gave him a copy of a letter that umm… kind of 21 outlined what the expectations were, asked him if he wanted me 22 to read it to him or if he wanted to read it. He said, I’ll 23 read it. So we sat there while he read the letter and then he 24 asked exactly what this meeting was in regards to. Then the 25 Chief started talking about you know, the expectations umm… 26 which were just positive team environment and you know, how he 56 1 wanted him to do his work and the positive image of the 2 department and then… he wanted more explanation about how he 3 wasn’t providing a positive team environment and the Chief 4 went into explaining about the Facebook posts for Captain 5 Hensley’s 6 said, well, can I record this? We didn’t have a problem with 7 it. He hit record and then that’s just the conversation after 8 that. 9 and then that’s when he started recording. He LIEUTENANT HAERING: And he recorded that on… 10 MS. CHARLES: His phone. 11 LIEUTENANT HAERING: His phone. 12 MS. CHARLES: Well a phone, I don’t know, he had two 13 14 15 (2) phones. LIEUTENANT HAERING: And you have a, either the original or a copy of the letter of expectations? 16 MS. CHARLES: Yes. 17 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay. After the umm… umm… 18 19 recording started what occurred after that? MS. CHARLES: Umm… again, the Chief outlined the 20 concerns with the Facebook post from Captain Hensley’s 21 Umm… Captain Hensley said he can’t control what his 22 posted. He knew nothing about it. He wasn’t aware of it and it 23 didn’t have a nexus to the department and then there was more 24 conversation about just how it was affecting the department 25 and how there was conversations with the umm… line staff about 26 what’s going on with the upper level of management staff at . … 57 1 the police department. They also talked about umm… his 2 treatment of 3 her. Umm… they also talked about umm… how the Chief wanted to 4 be made aware of any events that his command staff attended 5 that may have a nexus again to the department. And then at the 6 end of that conversation umm… Captain Hensley said, maybe umm… 7 a good fit would be for me to demote umm… if I’m not doing 8 basically what you want me to do at this time and umm… we kind 9 of left the conversation at that, told him to go home and and his professionalism with 10 think about it and get back to us and I haven’t heard anything 11 else since then. 12 13 14 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Can you umm… tell me exactly what was Captain Hensley’s demeanor during this meeting? MS. CHARLES: It was umm… it changed throughout the 15 conversation. At first I think he was a bit off guard and then 16 he seemed a bit angry and then by the end of the conversation 17 he was emotional and upset. 18 19 20 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Umm… can you give me any examples of what you umm… said was anger or… you… MS. CHARLES: Umm… just when they were going back and 21 forth about the whole Facebook post, you know, his voice was 22 elevated. He seemed agitated. Umm… the Chief had to talk over 23 him several times to say, listen to me, you know, I’m trying 24 to talk to you, I’m trying to explain to you, umm… Captain 25 Hensley… interrupted him several times. It was just, I guess, 26 his tone and his physical demeanor. 58 1 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Did Captain Hensley also 2 interrupt you while you were trying to explain things? 3 MS. CHARLES: Yes. 4 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Do you roughly know how many 5 times that might have happened… or you know… 6 MS. CHARLES: I would, roughly, I would say three (3) 7 to five (5), again, I don’t remember the exact, you know, umm… 8 conversation. And again, my job was just to kind of be there 9 to let everyone be heard, umm… but the Chief did most of the 10 talking. 11 12 LIEUTENANT HAERING: How did, how did you take that personally? 13 MS. CHARLES: That he was… I understood that he was 14 maybe surprised by the conversation. He had the right to be 15 upset. It wasn’t professional umm… but I wasn’t offended by 16 it. 17 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Do you think umm… Captain 18 Hensley’s reaction to the post was correct, within lines? 19 MS. CHARLES: I don’t know what you mean, was it 20 correct… like his response to what the Chief brought up or… 21 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Yes. 22 MS. CHARLES: It’s just my opinion, if it wasn’t, if 23 that wasn’t the context of the post then it’s no big deal. It 24 should have just been, I apologize if it was perceived that 25 way, I’ll speak to my 26 and forth or, or, or Mr… Captain Hensley’s umm… arguing about, 59 , let’s move on. The arguing back 1 my 2 defriended and… that wasn’t necessary. It had nothing to do 3 with the conversation. It, it, again, if it didn’t apply to 4 the situation, I apologize it was perceived that way, I will 5 speak to her, but again, she’s allowed to post what she wants 6 and let’s move, move forward. 7 can post whatever she wants and who was unfriended and LIEUTENANT HAERING: Do you, do you specifically 8 remember what Captain Hensley may have said when he was first 9 confronted about what the post said and how it, how there was 10 11 12 a nexus about the post? MS. CHARLES: Umm… he said there wasn’t a nexus. My can be posting about politics or something that happened 13 at her job, umm… you can’t prove it was a nexus and there 14 wasn’t a nexus. He also stated that he doesn’t check her 15 posts. He doesn’t know what she’s posting. They don’t talk 16 about the posts and he doesn’t talk about work items with her 17 for her to post something. 18 19 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Did Captain Hensley mention anything about prior knowledge of the post? 20 MS. CHARLES: No, he said he had no prior knowledge 21 of the post. In fact, like I said, he, he said, I don’t have 22 Facebook, I don’t know anything about Facebook, I’m not on 23 Facebook, I don’t know what she posts, I don’t see it, I don’t 24 know, we don’t talk about it. 25 26 LIEUTENANT HAERING: At the time the meeting was going did you make any notes in reference to anything? 60 1 2 MS. CHARLES: No. I figured it was being recorded so there were notes. 3 4 LIEUTENANT HAERING: How did you view umm… Captain Hensley’s conduct towards Chief Herzog? 5 MS. CHARLES: It was very unprofessional. He was, 6 like I said, very aggressive and angry. Umm… a couple times 7 during the conversation I tried to say, we’re not accusing you 8 or we’re not saying you’re not doing your job, this is just a 9 conversation about expectations. We’re not saying that your 10 can’t post or she can post. We’re just telling you what 11 the expectations are for a command member, staff… staff 12 member. 13 14 15 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And how about his, Captain Hensley’s conduct towards you? MS. CHARLES: It, I was just kind of a bystander. I 16 mean he wasn’t speaking directly to me. I interjected a few 17 times to try to get us back on track of what the conversation 18 was supposed to be about but I wasn’t the leader of the 19 conversation. I didn’t really have a lot of input besides 20 saying, well what can we do to make this better, what do you 21 need from us… or let’s just stay on track and not get off task 22 on other items. I just kind of trying to guide the 23 conversation and keep us on task. 24 LIEUTENANT HAERING: You got anything? 25 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: I think she’s covered 26 everything. Umm… is this, were you surprised at his reaction? 61 1 Did this go the way you anticipated or was this, did this go 2 differently than what you thought it was going to go? 3 MS. CHARLES: It went way different than I thought. I 4 thought, like I said, it was just going to be a conversation 5 going over these core bullet points, there would be a question 6 and answer period… well explain to me exactly how I can 7 improve in this area and the conversation would be over. I 8 never expected it to get that aggressive or angry… like he was 9 very angry and his voice was elevated over Facebook posts, 10 like it just… his reaction in regards to what the conversation 11 was, we weren’t talking about discipline. We weren’t talking 12 about you’re going to get demoted. We weren’t talking about 13 any of that. We were just saying what the expectations were 14 and it went from way up here to down here to… back down 15 further by the end of the conversation. It was like a roller 16 coaster of emotions. 17 18 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: So you were, you were surprised by his reaction? 19 MS. CHARLES: Yes. 20 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: And his, his reaction, in your 21 opinion, was his reaction not consistent with what was being 22 asked of him? 23 MS. CHARLES: No, it was not. 24 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Okay. That’s all I have. 25 LIEUTENANT HAERING: I think that will conclude this 26 interview. The time is 2:23. 62 1 THEREUPON, THE INTERVIEW WAS CONCLUDED. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 63 1 GUTMAN INTERVIEW, FEBRUARY 21, 2020: 2 LIEUTENANT HAERING: The date is February 21st, 2020, 3 the time is 10:45. Those present are Captain Joe Gutman, 4 Sergeant Mark Weingartner and myself, Lieutenant Paul Haering 5 with IND Section. We are here to discuss IIU2020-01. Captain 6 Gutman, do you recall having a conversation with Chief Herzog 7 regarding disruptions related to a post… Facebook Post? 8 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I honestly can’t remember. Umm… 9 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Let me rephrase that. 10 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Yeah. 11 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Let me back you up a little bit. 12 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Okay. 13 LIEUTENTANT HAERING: Did Lieutenant Quinn bring to 14 your attention… 15 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Yes. 16 LIEUTENANT HAERING: About a Facebook… 17 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Yes. 18 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Post? 19 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Yes. 20 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay, and then later on did you 21 have a discussion with the Chief about that? 22 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I believe I did. 23 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay. Can… umm… if it’s easier 24 let’s umm… let’s talk about what the discussion was with 25 Lieutenant Quinn first. 26 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Okay. 64 1 2 LIEUTENANT HAERING: So can you expound on that? Tell me what was said or… 3 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: He saw a umm… a Facebook post by 4 Jamie’s 5 and, and asked him about it. So I mean that, I think that was 6 the, the discussion between Mike and I. 7 8 and umm… he said he had just gone to umm… Jamie LIEUTENANT HAERING: So umm… do you recall what the post was about? 9 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I’m trying to think… I’m sure you 10 guys have it umm… if I saw it I could say, yeah, that’s it. 11 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Let me get this… 12 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: When umm… Lieutenant Quinn 13 spoke to you about the post did, did he say why or what about 14 that post made him come to you or bring it to your attention? 15 Was there anything that concerned him about the post? 16 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I, I think he was just inquiring 17 whether that had anything to do with work and yes, that would 18 be the post. 19 20 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And umm… I don’t think… this one says it’s from … 21 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Mm-Hm (meaning yes). 22 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Saturday at umm… 16:42. 23 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Correct. 24 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay. Umm… so can you explain 25 26 what umm… Lieutenant Quinn’s concern was about this? CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Just like I just said, he just, he 65 1 was just wondering if it was anything to do with work. 2 3 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Did he say what was occurring within the police department? 4 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Not that I recall. 5 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Did he say who brought the post 6 to his attention? 7 8 9 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: He may have but I honestly don’t remember. LIEUTENANT HAERING: So, when you had this umm… 10 conversation umm… with him, umm… what did you do in regards to 11 this conversation? Did you take it to anybody else? 12 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I mentioned it to Jamie. 13 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Do you remember what date it was 14 that Lieutenant Quinn talked to you? 15 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I have no idea. 16 LIEUTENANT HAERING: If I showed you umm… Lieutenant 17 Quinn’s calendar, would that help? This is January. The next 18 one is February. 19 20 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: It really wouldn’t. I mean I could say it was in the last month, would be my guess. 21 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay. 22 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: But I don’t remember exactly when it 23 was. It didn’t umm… I don’t know, it just didn’t, didn’t seem 24 real important or relevant at the time. 25 26 LIEUTENANT HAERING: When did you tell umm… Captain Hensley about it? 66 1 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Shortly thereafter. 2 LIEUTENANT HAERING: When you say that, do you mean 3 that day, the same day? 4 5 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I don’t think it was the same day. I think it was maybe umm… a day or two (2) later. 6 7 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Did umm… what was the discussion you had with Captain Hensley about it? 8 9 10 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I just brought up the post and he was like, you know, she can post whatever she wants, I don’t know what it’s about, I’m not on Facebook. 11 12 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Umm… do you know if by any chance he went and talked to Lieutenant Quinn about it? 13 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: After that conversation? 14 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Mm-Hm (meaning yes). 15 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I don’t know. 16 LIEUTENANT HAERING: For that matter, do you know if 17 he talked to anybody about it? 18 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I really don’t. 19 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Have, have you talked to the 20 Chief about this post? 21 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I feel like we did talk about it 22 because I thought he expressed some concerns. I, honestly, I 23 probably need to go back and look at my notes but I, I feel 24 like, I feel like there was a discussion about it. 25 26 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Would you have kept notes on that? 67 1 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: If it was part of my command staff 2 meeting notes, you know, in our… umm… before meeting or after 3 meeting, it might be in those. 4 5 LIEUTENANT HAERING: But if it was just umm… hey, I want to talk to you umm… I’ve got some… 6 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Yeah. 7 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Issues… 8 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I think he did pull me in the office 9 10 11 12 about it, now that you say that, yeah. LIEUTENANT HAERING: Do you remember what that conversation was about? CAPTAIN GUTMAN: It was, it was about umm… what I 13 would assume is this post but I think he kind of addressed it 14 very generally just talking about umm… social media and 15 appearances and you know, things like that. 16 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Did he mention if it was brought 17 to his attention that it was causing any rift within the 18 department or anything of that nature? 19 20 21 22 23 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Umm… I think he said it, it could, it had that possibility. LIEUTENANT HAERING: Did he mention how he learned about the post? CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I don’t, I know umm… and I’m, I’m 24 recalling this now, I know he was up… I don’t think I went to 25 him because he was upset with me for not bringing this 26 forward. I think that’s how this went down and you know, I 68 1 apologized and, and said I, it just didn’t seem relevant to me 2 at the time. I wasn’t put two (2) and two (2) together as kind 3 of a benign post. You know, it didn’t specifically mention 4 West Chester or anything like that and I, you know, I 5 apologized and duly noted and, you know… 6 7 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Can you, can you recall any more of that conversation? 8 9 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Off the top of my… I, I apologize, off the top of my head, no. Umm… he, I mean he did call me in, 10 umm… I want to say it was he, I and I’m pretty sure Rebholz 11 was there as well. Umm… I mean, they might be able to fill in 12 the blanks but I mean we definitely, we did discuss this. He, 13 he brought it up and umm… like I said, he, he’s like I got to 14 get this off my chest. I’m kind of mad you didn’t, you know, 15 you didn’t bring this forward, you know, you knew about it and 16 I apologized and, and you know, duly noted, I’ll, I’ll do 17 better next time and, and umm… umm… I think that was kind of 18 the gist of it. 19 20 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Do you know umm… when that occurred? 21 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I don’t. 22 LIEUTENANT HAERING: If a calendar helps. 23 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Well that, I don’t even know if my, 24 I don’t know if that was an off day or work day when I met 25 with umm… the Chief and Rebholz so I, I… I would venture to 26 say one (1) of those guys could probably tell you better what 69 1 day that was and I, I certainly wouldn’t have any reason to 2 doubt them. 3 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Now that we’re talking about 4 this umm… a little bit more, are you recalling anymore, is 5 your memory recalling any, like the conversation you had with 6 Lieutenant Quinn or… the convo… anymore details about… 7 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I mean that was just the gist of it. 8 I mean he was, he was just like, he, he inquired if it was 9 related to work to, to Jamie, you know. Umm… 10 LIEUTENANT HAERING: That was Lieutenant Quinn. 11 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Lieutenant Quinn, right. Mm-Hm 12 (meaning yes). 13 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Right. 14 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: My conversation with Lieutenant 15 Quinn. 16 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: And did umm… Lieutenant Quinn 17 have information from other officers or in your discussion 18 with Lieutenant Quinn umm… did Lieutenant Quinn believe or 19 have reason to believe that this post was related to the 20 police department or was he inquiring of whether, just whether 21 it was related? 22 23 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: He was inquiring as to whether it was is my recollection. 24 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: And what, what was your, what 25 was your conversation or your opinion umm… in reference to 26 that? 70 1 2 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I think I was, you know, I have no idea. I don’t think I had even seen the post at that point. 3 4 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Had you, have… when did you first see that post? 5 6 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: It was after that conversation, but I did see it at some point. 7 8 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: When you saw the post were there umm… comments attached to that post? 9 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Not that I recall or at least I 10 didn’t open it and look at them. I don’t re… there was nothing 11 that jumped out at me like, oh, you know what I mean, so if 12 there, if there were comments it wasn’t something that I 13 clicked on and scrolled down and looked. 14 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: So you didn’t, you didn’t see 15 any comments that people interpreted that as being related to 16 the police department? 17 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I did not see any of those. 18 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Did umm… Lieutenant Quinn 19 mention anything about any concerns he might have had about 20 the post or, or anything that was occurring within the police 21 department related to that? 22 23 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I don’t know, umm… not that I recall. 24 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Umm… let’s see… 25 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Umm… you know, as I kind of 26 explained to the Chief, this, this wasn’t something that 71 1 imprinted into my memory because I think the, I wasn’t umm… I 2 guess I wasn’t connecting the dots. To me, I looked at the 3 post, it doesn’t mention West Chester. I kind of flushed it 4 after that, you know. 5 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Yeah, I’m, what I’m trying to 6 figure out is if he mentioned anything to you about you know, 7 the… in other words, why would he bring this to your 8 attention? 9 10 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I think just what he stated. He was inquiring whether this was about anything to do with work. 11 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And you don’t… 12 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: And, and I guess in hindsight, what, 13 you know, what was going on in work at that time, umm… umm… I 14 believe this was shortly after the promotional list posted so 15 you know, perhaps people were drawing a connection there but… 16 LIEUTENANT HAERING: But you… 17 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: But again, I, I wasn’t making those 18 connections and I think that’s what the Chief was upset with 19 me about, is I, I didn’t make those connections and bring it 20 to his attention, which again, I, I admit that and I 21 apologized for that, you know. And I didn’t make those 22 connections because it, it was just kind of a ambiguous post 23 in my mind. 24 25 26 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay, umm… do you recall what the date was that they did the promotional posting? CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Uh-huh (meaning no). 72 1 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay. 2 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: No. I, I umm… I don’t even know that 3 I saw the actual post until, I don’t, I don’t, hell, I can’t 4 say as I ever saw it. I will say I, I had a discussion with 5 Mike McCalla yesterday and he said that umm… and we were 6 discussing his performance on the promotional process and one 7 (1) of the things that he didn’t like is the fact that he said 8 that the list was up for a couple of weeks and honestly I 9 didn’t even realize that. He just felt like, you know, when 10 you’re at the bottom of the list and that, you know, people 11 are walking by that… 12 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Oh… 13 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: That, that list every day and you’re 14 sitting at the bottom… 15 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Right… 16 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Does that undermine umm… your 17 ability and authority as a, as a sergeant. He was just 18 expressing his concerns… 19 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Sure. 20 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: And felt like in the future notify 21 people or post the results and then take it down and not, not 22 leave it up there as a constant reminder for… 23 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Right. 24 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: How poorly a candidate may have done 25 26 in their mind, or, or people could draw that conclusion. LIEUTENANT HAERING: Sure. 73 1 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: So… but I, I mean, I don’t know what 2 day it was posted but there’s dates on, on those things and 3 generally the date that’s on them is the date they’re posted. 4 So I mean that should be easy enough to find. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 LIEUTENANT HAERING: So umm… so that’s his perception of the length of time that’s been posted. CAPTAIN GUTMAN: He’s, he’s, I recall him saying two (2) weeks, that it was up for two (2) weeks. LIEUTENANT HAERING: But your perception… CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I don’t know that I remember seeing the dang thing posted at all. I… LIEUTENANT HAERING: Well, is what I’m getting to is you don’t think anything of it, is that correct? 14 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Of what? 15 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Of the fact that it was posted 16 17 two (2) weeks and the impact it might have on somebody’s name. CAPTAIN GUTMAN: That never occurred to me and, and 18 umm… I mean he makes a valid point and in hindsight, I’m like, 19 yeah, that’s, that’s valid and I would, you know, had 20 certainly intended to bring that up in the future. I think, 21 you know, I’d think his concerns are valid and you know, the 22 people that did great, they don’t need the recognition, you 23 know, and the people that did poorly, let’s, let’s umm… do 24 what we can for them so they’re, they don’t feel like they’re 25 getting kicked in the nuts every day. 26 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Right. So then when the posting 74 1 of the promotions goes up and the transfers… 2 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Uh-huh (meaning yes). 3 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And then two (2) days later this 4 gets… 5 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Is that what it was? 6 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Gets put out… 7 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Okay. 8 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Then you can see how people may 9 10 draw a nexus, just like he drew a nexus with the length of that posting? 11 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Yeah, I suppose. I didn’t put that 12 time, I mean, I, I don’t… I guess I don’t know these dates so 13 I, I… 14 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Sure. 15 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: I didn’t have the timeline in my 16 head that, you know, one necessarily had anything to do with 17 the other. 18 LIEUTENANT HAERING: I got you. 19 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: I know umm… you can’t remember 20 the umm… the dates but you do know that at some point you had 21 a discussion with Captain Hensley about the post and made him 22 aware of the post? 23 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Uh-huh (meaning yes). 24 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: And then on, I believe it was 25 January 28th umm… Chief and umm… Lieutenant Colonel had a 26 meeting with umm… Captain Hensley and after that meeting they 75 1 met with you to umm… give you heads up on their meeting… 2 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Uh-huh (meaning yes). 3 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: At that point umm… the Chief 4 advised that umm… you advised him that you had had a 5 conversation with umm… Captain Hensley about the post. So the 6 post would have been prior to, what I’m getting at, the post, 7 or your conversation with Captain Hensley would have been 8 prior to the meeting with… 9 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Yes. 10 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: The Chief… 11 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Yeah. 12 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: And Lieutenant Colonel? 13 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Yeah. 14 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Okay. 15 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Pretty sure, yeah. 16 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Okay. I don’t have anything. 17 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Yeah, I think we’re good. We’re 18 going to turn these off. The time is 11:02. 19 CAPTAIN GUTMAN: Okay. 20 THEREUPON, THE INTERVIEW CONCLUDED. 21 22 23 24 25 26 76 1 HENSLEY INTERVIEW (1), FEBRUARY 21, 2020: 2 LIEUTENANT HAERING: The date is February 21st, 2020, 3 the time is 11:30. Present in the room are Captain James… 4 Jamie Hensley, Lieutenant Paul Haering and Sergeant Mike 5 Weingartner. Administrative warning IIU3 Form has been 6 completed and signed. We are here today to discuss IIU2020-01. 7 Captain, do you recall providing Chief Herzog with a recording 8 you made of a meeting held January 28th, 2020 between Chief 9 Herzog, Lieutenant Colonel Rebholz, HR Manager Charles, and 10 yourself? 11 CAPTAIN HENLSEY: Yes. 12 LIEUTENANT HAERING: When did you provide that copy, 13 do you recall? 14 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Umm… I don’t remember the exact 15 date. I want to say, I think the 28th was, if I look at a 16 calendar… 17 LIEUTENANT HAERING: I’ve got… 18 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Was that, that was on a Monday I 19 think, umm… hang on a second, I can give you at least close to 20 it. I think that, that was on, okay, January 28th was on a 21 Tuesday. I don’t remember if it was the next day or the day 22 after, it was within a day or two (2) after that meeting. I 23 want to say it was the next day but I can’t be positive on 24 that, but I want to say it was the next day. Umm… Chief Herzog 25 had asked umm… for a copy of it and I said, no problem. I’ll 26 get you a copy and he, he asked for it by the end of the day 77 1 and I can’t, like I said, I can’t say if it was the 29th or the 2 30th but I’m pretty sure it was, it was within a day or so 3 after the meeting and I provided him a copy before the end of 4 the day. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And what medium did you provide that? CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Umm… I put it on a, a department flash drive. LIEUTENANT HAERING: Umm… and where did you acquire that recording from? CAPTAIN HENSLEY: My email. So I recorded the, I 12 recorded the umm… conversation on my phone with the Chief’s 13 permission and HR’s permission on my personal phone. Umm… I 14 deleted it off of my personal phone per policy and I provided 15 him a copy of it from my email on a flash drive from my 16 department computer. 17 18 19 20 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And I’m assuming that was your department email? CAPTAIN HENSLEY: No, my personal email forwarded to my department email to download it onto, yeah. 21 LIEUTENANT HAERING: I got you… 22 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: To download it onto my umm… device 23 24 25 26 or I mean onto the flash drive. LIEUTENANT HAERING: Can you explain why there’s two (2) recordings, can you tell us how that transpired? CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Well umm… yeah, I think umm… so, I 78 1 don’t know if you’ve ever used the audio umm… what’s it 2 called, the app on your phone… it’s called voice memos. So 3 apparently if you’re recording something and somebody texts 4 you or calls you in the middle of that it stops. 5 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Okay. 6 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: So umm… while it was playing umm… 7 and then I had also heard that if it umm… if it like time, if 8 your screen goes to lock that, that it will stop, so I had 9 checked it sometime into the meeting, I don’t remember how far 10 into it but umm… when I checked the phone it looked like it 11 had stopped so I started, I started the recording again and 12 that split two (2) different threads and so there was, and I 13 told the Chief about that when I talked to him that there was 14 a, there was a period in that discussion where, I think one 15 (1) of them is like twenty-five (25) minutes and one of them 16 is like thirteen (13) minutes. I don’t know how long went by 17 in between there. I just told him there’s, there’s two (2) 18 recordings… 19 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Right. 20 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: It stopped recording because I 21 think my 22 recording and it had stopped and I just happened to have 23 checked it because I thought to see if it’s still running and 24 it wasn’t and that’s when I hit record again, so that’s why 25 there’s two (2) recordings. 26 had texted me or something during the, during the LIEUTENANT HAERING: And, and that’s why you’ll hear 79 1 2 a break in the conversation if you listen to it? CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Well, there’s not really a break. 3 It’s kind of like, well, you’ll hear, we’re talking about one 4 (1) topic and then when it comes back on it’s not like picking 5 up where the other one left off… 6 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Right. 7 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yeah, there’s, it’s obvious we’re 8 on a different topic I think at that point and I believe, in 9 what we were talking about at the time was, I believe the part 10 that didn’t get recorded was umm… when the Chief was 11 questioning me about an event I attended off duty a Men of 12 Honor event and I told him that, I said I think that’s the 13 part that’s probably not in there but umm… so, yeah. 14 LIEUTENANT HAERING: When the umm… the Chief 15 requested that recording, can you remember exactly what he 16 said and what the conversation was that transpired? 17 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yeah, he said umm… he said, hey 18 umm… the other day when we had that meeting and, I’m not going 19 to say I’m remembering everything exactly as it was said, umm… 20 I, I remember he called me into his office and said, hey, you 21 need to get a copy or the other day you recorded umm… that 22 meeting, I need to get a copy of that. And I said, I said, I, 23 you know, I don’t, I deleted it and he said umm… he said, you 24 deleted it? And I said, yeah. And he’s like, what did you 25 record it on? I said, my personal phone. He said, well I’m 26 going to need to, we’re going to have to get that to Mike Sly 80 1 or umm… or somebody to get, to get it off of there and I said, 2 no, you’re not getting my personal phone, I’ll get you a copy 3 of it. And umm… he said, okay, well just so you know, I can 4 get your personal phone if I needed it but as long as you get 5 me a copy of it. I said, yeah, I’m aware of that. I’ll get you 6 a copy of it. He’s like, well, I’ll need it by the end of the 7 day. I said, okay, you’ll have it, what medium do you want it 8 on? He said, doesn’t matter, email, disc, you know, flash 9 drive, whatever. I don’t remember what all he listed but he, 10 he just said it doesn’t matter, just get it to me. Umm… so you 11 know, like I said, I, I had to email it from my personal email 12 to my work email and then put it on a flash drive and, and 13 provide it to him so… 14 15 LIEUTENANT HAERING: How did you umm… feel about this, that meeting and the conversation and… 16 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Well, I can tell you, we’re going 17 to be here a while, I can tell you that much. Umm… I’ll tell 18 you how I felt about it, the same way I feel about this 19 internal and I apologize that you guys are getting drug into 20 it, you know, you guys got a job to do but this is nothing but 21 pure and blatant ongoing retaliation and discriminatory 22 harassment against me, against Captain Gutman because of 23 allegations we brought forward against 24 the Chief umm… dating back to May of 2018. And umm… when I was 25 pulled into that meeting on January 28th it was, I was 26 completely blindsided umm… you know, I had had numerous and 81 1 conversations, I had had a couple of conversations over, since 2 May of 2018 where the Chief continues to try to force me to 3 engage in interpersonal relations or conversations with 4 , although I’ve maintained that I will not 5 have anything more than work, professional work-related, 6 polite, cordial conversation with her but I’m not going to 7 engage in personal conversations or idle chit chat and umm… he 8 continues to try to force that by various means. Umm… so when 9 I was called into that meeting umm… completely unexpected and 10 served with a, a form or a letter from HR basically in so many 11 words saying I’m on some type of performance improvement plan 12 and a list of expectations of performance and umm… I read the 13 document and my, yeah, I had an emotional reaction, my initial 14 emotional reaction was, what the hell is going on, you know, 15 I, this is, I’m completely blindsided, right. Since my 16 evaluation in July of ’19, I had had no indications that 17 you’re not meeting the standards, you’re umm… having 18 performance issues, umm… and so I asked, you know, can you 19 explain what these bullet points, there was various bullet 20 points of performance expect… expectations, what these mean. 21 And the Chief immediately begins talking about my 22 Facebook posts that are in no way connected to me or the 23 police department. I don’t even have social media. So, yeah, 24 my initial reaction was, I recognized that was exactly what 25 this is which is retaliation and so, yeah, I had an emotional 26 reaction. I was upset and umm… that’s how I felt because I 82 1 recognized what’s going on and it’s still going on and that’s 2 exactly what this is so umm… whether I lay that all out to you 3 guys or we bring Tonya Charles in here but I got a long list 4 and I got a, I got a nineteen (19) page document detailing all 5 of this that I will provide to the Township and umm… and Mr. 6 Burks and HR. And you know, and honestly I think, you know, 7 they know this is coming, the Chief knows it’s coming. He 8 knows I’m getting ready to meet with HR and the, the Assistant 9 Administrator and the Administrator to lay out this ongoing 10 retaliation and umm… they’re trying to get out ahead of it. So 11 this is just another way to tarnish my reputation and umm… 12 before that happens. So that’s how I felt and that’s how I 13 feel today. 14 15 LIEUTENANT HAERING: So, so prior to that meeting there’s already a history. It wasn’t just a umm… 16 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: There was a history of what I just 17 told you, yeah. Not a history of negative performance by me by 18 any means. I’ve never had a negative mark in any way. I had 19 one (1) umm… you know, counseling PSL when I was in CIS you 20 know, fifteen (15) years ago, is the only negative performance 21 documentation I’ve ever had up until July of last year, up 22 until umm… 23 about her inappropriate attire that she was wearing, her 24 inappropriate behavior toward me and, and other people, umm… 25 and I, you know, I also brought forward complaints against 26 Colonel Herzog to Mr. Burks umm… in April of last year umm… was hired and I filed complaints 83 1 regarding his inappropriate sexual comments before and after 2 she was hired, sexual comments about her umm… that I had 3 questions about how she was hired and why she was hired, 4 improprieties that were going on there, umm… the fact that 5 Brent Lovell did her background and none of us up front ever 6 saw it, at least not me or Captain Gutman and generally those 7 would come through us when our people did the backgrounds. 8 Umm… I’m sure Courtney Lovell saw it. But there was questions 9 around that and surrounding that time and, and I believe 10 Colonel Rebholz had concerns as well. And umm… you know, 11 there’s definitely things that make me think there’s, there’s 12 some type of impropriety or inappropriate conduct going on 13 between the Chief and 14 brought concerns about the Chief making jokes that were 15 racially insensitive and other sexually charged jokes and 16 comments that I didn’t want to be, I didn’t want to be a part 17 of. I didn’t want the command staff or the image of the 18 department or the township or the command staff to be 19 tarnished, to be tied to inappropriate conduct. So umm… there 20 was also, around that time of April of last year there was an 21 anonymous person had called in a, a complaint to the township 22 that, that the Chief had umm… posed for some type of, in some 23 type of black face costume and there was a photo of it 24 floating around and it was going to, it was going to hit the 25 media. Umm… well, I just so happened, I had seen that photo 26 sometime around 2015 when I was a sergeant in IND. My . Umm… you know, I had 84 1 seen it. My sister-in-law had seen it. I’ve talked to you 2 know, a former employee here that umm… had seen it. So I tried 3 to do the right thing and protect the department and the 4 township and the Chief and I came forward and told them, 5 listen, I don’t know who called this in, I don’t know anything 6 about it but I seen the photo they’re talking about, umm… a 7 photo of him and his 8 painted black with umm… their hands up, imitating the Michael 9 Brown hands up, don’t shoot phenomenon that came out of the posing you know, with their faces 10 Ferguson Riots. And umm… they had, you know, afro wigs on and 11 I believe the shirts, the t-shirts they had on said, hands up, 12 don’t shoot. It was posted on 13 You know, my 14 us recognized it was inappropriate. I said, don’t touch that, 15 don’t like it, don’t, stay the hell away from it. And umm… it 16 wasn’t very long after that, I don’t remember how long, we’re 17 talking several years ago but umm… it was taken down. Umm… I 18 brought that, I had a meeting with the Chief, told him, he 19 denied it. Umm… I said that umm… you know, if you’re telling, 20 I got to believe it. He said, I’ve never dressed in black 21 face, maybe I was dressed up like an army guy or a hobo or 22 some other… a list of other things that somebody might have 23 mistaken something. And I said, well listen, you’re going to, 24 if you’re telling me that I have to believe you but I’m not, 25 there was no confusion about what I saw, you know, I’m just 26 telling you what I saw and I don’t umm… feel right sitting on Facebook page. showed it to me. I said, immediately both of 85 1 that information after what you told me. Umm… we had a second 2 meeting about that umm… with Colonel Rebholz and the Chief and 3 he had mentioned to me that they were, he thought since, they 4 were close to having Cincinnati Bell figuring out the number 5 that that anonymous call had came from and that they thought 6 they were going to be able to identify this person and you 7 know, of course I said, well that’s great, I said, but you 8 know, unfortunately it’s not great for us because that’s just 9 another person now that has seen that photo right, besides, 10 besides the people I have told you and myself. So, I don’t 11 know whatever happened to that. Umm… he told me that umm… he 12 had told the information that I told him to Larry Burks and 13 said, you’re welcome to meet with him as well, you know, but 14 I’ve told him, I’ve told him what you told me. And umm… well I 15 did meet with Mr. Burks, I scheduled a meeting with him and I 16 asked to meet with him and umm… and Lisa Brown his assistant 17 administrator. Umm… Captain Gutman came with me umm… and 18 again, we’re, we’re getting way off track but I can, I’ll let 19 you guys ask what you need to ask but there’s a whole list of 20 things that we need to go through umm… to get, to get the 21 whole picture of what’s going here. But at that time Captain 22 Gutman and I went and met with Mr. Burks and umm… you know, I 23 had explained the black face thing. I explained the 24 improprieties with 25 comfortable having anything more than umm… workplace you know, 26 related interactions with her. I’d be polite and professional . I explained that I was not 86 1 and I’m not, you know, I’ll work with her. I’m cordial and, 2 and I think if you ask anybody I have, except for the Chief 3 apparently, I have been. Umm… but that doesn’t seem to be 4 enough. He wants, he wants more than that and has continued to 5 try to force me to do that. Umm… so at the time Mr. Burkes 6 umm… he basically said, well, unless this, I believe you, but 7 unless this picture surfaces, nothing we’re going to be able 8 to do. And I said, well you know, I’m just giving you the 9 information. You know, I don’t want the township to be 10 embarrassed. I don’t want the, the department to be 11 embarrassed or anybody else. So umm… as far as the 12 inappropriate comments he basically suggested that I meet with 13 the Chief and tell him I’m offended by these things and knock 14 it off basically. And if I wasn’t comfortable doing that then 15 he would do it or he would sit with me or whatever and I said, 16 I’ll meet with him. Umm… Joe and I did and umm… I expressed my 17 concerns with the comments that he’s, he’s made and makes. And 18 umm… you know, he mostly said, oh, I don’t, you know, I don’t, 19 I’m not aware that I make comments like that and nobody has 20 ever said anything to me but he basically said he would be 21 more cognizant of what he says. And I think, and honestly I 22 think he has been with that. But umm… since that time and 23 since the complaints with 24 story we won’t have to go into but since that time everything 25 up front completely changed. Joe and I were umm… began being 26 cut out of decisions, cut out of meetings, left out of things and that’s a whole other 87 1 umm… uninformed about what’s going on. Umm… the Chief, you 2 know, umm… you know, he, he every now and then would, would go 3 talk to somebody beneath you with a task or something, tell a 4 patrolman or sergeant, detective, hey take care of this and 5 then you know, not tell anybody about it and then you find out 6 about it. But this became commonplace that umm… he would go 7 directly to my lieutenants and my sergeants with tasks, things 8 to, and I wouldn’t know anything about it until they copied me 9 to an email or I’d find out I’m responsible for something that 10 they’re doing and I don’t even know they’re doing it. So those 11 kind of things began to happen and then umm… umm… and then my 12 evaluation came in July of last year and the only negative 13 marks that I had below, two (2) below standard marks 14 specifically had to do with my interactions with 15 and that they could not tell me why. Umm… I lay out 16 that I’m professional and polite. I work with her when I need 17 to go get things accomplished. I don’t have personal chit chat 18 conversations other than good morning, good night, you know, 19 have a good day, have a good weekend. Umm… and umm… and that 20 I’ll continue to do that but I’m not going to engage in 21 personal chit chat or just joking around or talking about our 22 families, not going to do it, not comfortable doing it. After 23 her behavior and how things were handled when she was hired, I 24 don’t want to, I don’t want anything to do with that. I’m 25 going to protect myself, the department, my own integrity umm… 26 out of respect for, you know, standing up for our guiding 88 1 principals that we preach about, right. But umm… since that 2 time, umm… again, they, they can’t, him and Colonel Rebholz 3 could not define to me, okay, you got to do something more 4 than good morning and good night or, we’re not saying you got 5 to have personal conversations with her but we, you’re just 6 going to have to figure it out. It’s got to be, you got to… 7 no, I don’t have to figure it out. I don’t have to have 8 anything more than I’m having umm… but I’m being punished and 9 I’m being mistreated because of it and that’s why my 10 evaluation reflected what it did and that’s why I was drug 11 into that meeting on January 28th umm… and served with a bunch 12 of frivolous allegations that I think if you listen to that 13 audio, I’m not sure, I don’t know if you guys will listen to 14 it but it’s a bunch of nonsense, it’s a bunch of nonsense. 15 There’s nothing in there that’s any way related to my 16 performance as a captain other than he thinks I should have 17 personal conversations with 18 so, I don’t even remember what the question was but, you guys 19 go ahead. 20 and I won’t. Umm… LIEUTENANT HAERING: Yeah, what I was trying to 21 determine is, is the back story… 22 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yeah. 23 LIEUTENANT HAERING: To, because it seemed like there 24 was definitely something more than this was a first time, 25 we’re giving you this letter. 26 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Right. 89 1 2 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Because umm… you could tell there was a little, maybe agitation there. 3 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Mm-Hm (meaning yes). 4 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Yeah. 5 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yeah, because it’s retaliation. 6 Yeah, and it’s blatant and it’s obvious. It’s, it’s a, and 7 when you see everything that’s happened it’s, it’s, it’s 8 blatantly obvious what’s going on, you know, and it’s, it’s 9 against Joe and I both, you know what I mean, and it’s umm… I 10 expect the township to do a full and complete investigation 11 into all this and I’ll provide them whatever documentation 12 they want. But umm… I mean that, you know, that, I’ve been 13 left with no other option. I’ve tried to resolve this by 14 having, you know, courageous conversations, you know, with the 15 Chief and Assistant Chief and talking, trying to resolve it, 16 you know, person to person without putting stuff on paper and, 17 and, and hoping that people would do the right thing but… 18 that’s not what’s going on, you know. Umm… people don’t want 19 to do the right thing. They want to do whatever they can to 20 protect their, their own selves and continue to perpetuate 21 whatever it is the Chief’s trying to accomplish, I don’t know, 22 but it has nothing to do with umm… an appropriate work 23 environment up front, I know that much. Umm… so yeah, the back 24 story was, Captain Gutman and I filed complaints against 25 26 in May of 2018, cause she was dressing inappropriately. She was umm… initiated several conversations 90 1 with me that I was uncomfortable with. Umm… she stays late 2 every day. She almost never leaves on time. Umm… routinely 3 she’s there when I leave and there either with the Chief by 4 herself or sometimes it’s maybe Brian by herself or sometimes 5 they’re all gone and I’m leaving and she’s still there, you 6 know, cause at 4:30 comes you know, we close, generally… 7 sometimes we stay later, you know, being salary but you know, 8 she’s hourly umm… sometimes we’re there late umm… but 9 generally if we’re not there for anything we, I shut the door 10 at 4:30. I change, get out of my uniform, usually heading out 11 of there around 4:40, 4:45, you know. She’s always there, 12 still is. Umm… and then, like I said, the context of that was 13 that the fact that you know, the Chief was making 14 inappropriate sexual comments about her before and after she 15 was hired on top of that. So umm… and she was winking at you 16 know, male, male employees and, and umm… winked at Captain 17 Gutman’s 18 Gutman in front of his 19 and that, that kind of set everything off, to alright, look, 20 we got all these issues going on, let’s go talk to Colonel 21 Rebholz, let’s go talk to Courtney Lovell and we had a meeting 22 and we brought our concerns forward and Courtney even 23 acknowledged that, yeah, she’s had other complaints umm… about 24 umm… about the winking from other people. Umm… she doesn’t 25 seem to remember that now amazingly. But umm… and Colonel 26 Rebholz, at one point had even approached the Chief about a during a police memor… or winked at Captain during a police memorial ceremony 91 1 certain skirt that 2 thought it was inappropriate and brought it to the Chief’s 3 attention and the Chief basically said umm… you know, well I, 4 I didn’t really see it or you know, I haven’t seen anything 5 like that and he didn’t, supposedly didn’t see it that day. 6 Umm… supposedly nobody can seem to remember that. Although, 7 the Chief did acknowledge that to me umm… Colonel Rebholz 8 doesn’t seem to remember that now. So everybody is just 9 protecting themselves, you know, and falling in line with had worn and thought, he 10 whatever the Chief wants and I’m trying to stand up for what’s 11 right and do what’s appropriate and live up to our guiding 12 principals that, that you know, that we preach to, to our 13 officers to live up to so… that’s kind of the back story. So 14 yeah, if that’s, if I had an emotional reaction on that day, 15 that’s why, cause I, this has been going on for almost two (2) 16 years now and I’m coming in everyday trying to do my job, 17 trying to do the best job I can for this department like I’ve 18 done for over twenty (20) years. And umm… you know, I think if 19 anybody were to look at Joe and I and say, here’s two (2) 20 captains that have, with exemplary records that have never had 21 any blemishes on their, you know, on their record and umm… all 22 of the sudden overnight we just, we turn into, you know, 23 problem employees. I think you would have to ask what, you 24 know, what the hell is going on. Umm… so, that’s kind of the 25 back story and the answer to your question there. 26 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And then the umm… frustration 92 1 2 3 just boiled over. CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yeah, I mean I just, you know, I immediately recognized that the Chief is talking about my 4 Facebook post and I’m in, I’m sitting in a meeting with 5 the HR and the Assistant Chief and the Chief and being grilled 6 and served with a document about my 7 post. Umm… so yeah, I recognized what was going on. This is 8 nothing but continued retaliation and nothing has been done 9 about it thus far. So… until I stand up and lay it all out I ambiguous Facebook 10 guess again, for this is probably, this will be the third time 11 that umm… nothing is going to happen. 12 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Was that the, the, the Facebook 13 post, was that the first time you saw that or you learned of 14 that or did that catch you… 15 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I, you know, the, there was one (1) 16 that he read at the time and umm… it wasn’t the first, it 17 wasn’t the first time I had heard that because Mike Quinn had 18 asked me about a post by my 19 post. It was a definition of cronyism or something like that. 20 But at the time Mike Quinn had asked me, and this was probably 21 a couple, I don’t remember when this was but it was before 22 that meeting, umm… all he asked me was something to the effect 23 of, hey, umm… that post that 24 about, yeah, to be honest with you, I don’t know if I’ve ever, 25 I’ve never even see it. I’ve heard it, I’ve heard it read to 26 me by the Chief. Umm… he umm… Quinn says that post, that post and, and I think it was that did, was that, was that 93 1 or Facebook post from 2 I’m like, what are you talking about? I don’t even know what 3 you’re talking about. And I think he said something about 4 cronyism or, or a definition of cronyism or something and I’m 5 like, I said, Mike, that ain’t even, that’s got nothing to do 6 with work. I said, but to be honest with you, I don’t approve, 7 I don’t review and approve my 8 they go out. I’m not even on Facebook. So umm… I said, that 9 ain’t got nothing to do with work. Anybody making that 10 connection is, that’s on the reader, you know, they’re 11 connecting it to something they… their own personal experience 12 or something like that. I said, this has got nothing to do 13 with work and he’s like, oh okay, well… And umm… so when the 14 Chief asked me about it in this meeting on the 28th what I told 15 him was, the same thing I just told, I told Mike Quinn and I 16 also told him, I said, I have not had any conversations with 17 anybody saying that’s about that post being related to work. 18 Or the Chief brought up the Lieutenant process and the 19 postings for community, community affairs umm… sergeant spots 20 and I’m like, that’s got nothing, that’s in no way linked, 21 there’s nothing linking that post to me or the department 22 other than, as you can see there’s, there’s Officer Mike 23 Blankenship is obviously somebody that liked the post but 24 there’s nothing in that post that says anything about the 25 police department. So that’s the only conversations I’ve had. 26 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: In, in your meeting with umm… , was that, was that about work and Facebook posts before 94 1 with the Chief and umm… Ms. Charles and Lieutenant Colonel, 2 umm… did you make any statement about not, not having any 3 knowledge of that post? 4 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I don’t know if I said I didn’t 5 have any knowledge of it, I just said, I don’t, that ambiguous 6 post doesn’t have anything to do with the police department. I 7 know there was one other post he read that I didn’t even know 8 what the hell, I didn’t even know where it, I didn’t know 9 anything about it. It was a second Facebook post that he read. 10 In talking to my 11 you’re, when you read it again, says nothing about the police 12 department. It’s not linked to the police department in any 13 way, does not link to me in any way umm… it was about her boss 14 that she works for where she works and how great it was to 15 work with, for a woman, I don’t remember exactly what it said 16 but it was about working for a boss with good integrity and 17 morals and, and whatever else she said about her. Umm… but at 18 the time in that meeting, I didn’t even know what, I, no clue 19 what he was talking about. So yeah, I didn’t know what umm… , turns out, that you know, and when 20 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: But at, at the time of the 21 meeting you were, you were aware of the post cause you had 22 spoken to Lieutenant umm… umm… Quinn and Captain Gutman? 23 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yeah, about, yes, about that 24 conversation that I had with Mike Quinn, yeah, this, was this, 25 is this post related to, now like I said, did I read the post 26 or see it, Quinn didn’t show me a post. He just asked if 95 1 post was related to work and I said, I, I don’t even 2 know what you’re talking about and I think he read, I think he 3 said something about cronyism and I just said, Mike, that 4 ain’t got nothing to do with work. I don’t read or review 5 posts. I don’t approve them before they go out, and 6 so, you know, umm… so yeah, I guess in that, now, in that 7 context, yeah, I was aware of it. But umm… again, umm… that 8 was the only other conversation I had about it with Quinn. And 9 then I think I might have mentioned that Quinn, I can’t 10 remember when I talked to Joe about it, if it was before that 11 28th… January 28th meeting or after but I had a conversation 12 with Joe about my conversation with Mike Quinn and that I told 13 him that it’s got nothing to do with work. 14 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And… 15 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: And… I’m sorry… 16 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Go ahead. 17 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: In your conversation with umm… 18 with Lieutenant Quinn and Captain Gutman about the post did 19 they express any concern or that they had information that 20 officers were tying that to the police department? 21 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I think Quinn said something about 22 Obermeyer mentioned something to him and was wondering if it 23 was related to work and that’s the only thing I remember Mike 24 saying. And I said, it’s not, no, doesn’t have anything to do 25 with work. So umm… it’s not linked to work. There’s nothing in 26 there linking it, you know, I’m umm… I only remember him 96 1 saying that Obermeyer came to him and asked him if it was. I 2 don’t remember him saying if there was anybody else talking 3 about it. But Obermeyer had asked Quinn about it is what I 4 recall. 5 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Do you umm… cause I think you 6 mentioned it, I just want to clarify, do you remember if that 7 conversation was prior to the meeting on the 28th? 8 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: The one with Quinn? 9 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Yes. 10 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I think it was. I don’t remember my 11 conversation with Captain Gutman. I don’t remember the before 12 or after that meeting. I’m not sure but I believe the one with 13 Quinn… but at the, you know, honestly at the time, I don’t 14 even know that I was thinking about the Quinn conversation at 15 the time of that meeting. I was so blindsided by everything. 16 But you know, umm… I remember what I had told the Chief was, I 17 have not told anybody that that post is related, I have not 18 had conversations with anybody saying this is about work or 19 this has anything to do with the Lieutenant process or the 20 community affairs sergeant postings or anything like that. So… 21 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Did you bring this up to Captain 22 Gutman or did Captain Gutman bring this up to you? Do you, do 23 you remember the chain of events there? 24 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I don’t remember but I, I probably 25 told him about it. I just don’t remember if it was before or 26 after that January 28th meeting. But I would imagine I told Joe 97 1 about it because it involved Quinn maybe but I’m not, I’m not 2 sure there. I don’t remember if he mentioned it first or I did 3 but I want to say it probably was me telling him about it but 4 I’m not sure. 5 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Did umm… Quinn say anything 6 about how he was going to handle it, the, I guess there must 7 have been some… 8 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: No, I didn’t even get that far into 9 it with him LT. I just, I told him it wasn’t, doesn’t have 10 anything to do with work and I don’t know anything about it 11 and umm… the only person I remember him saying that had asked 12 him about it was Obermeyer so I didn’t, he didn’t say what he 13 was going to do about it and I, you know, I assumed, somebody 14 ask them about it, you go tell them what I said which is it 15 ain’t got nothing to do with work, you know, so… but I didn’t 16 ask him, I didn’t get into Mike, with Mike what he was going 17 to do about it or… 18 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Got any other questions? 19 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Umm… in relation to the umm… 20 excuse me, umm… the recording, I know that you said that the 21 Chief made reference to that he needs your phone to umm… have 22 Mike Sly retrieve the recording from it… 23 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Mm-Hm (meaning yes). 24 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: What, what prompted him to say 25 26 he’s going to have to get Mike Sly to get it from you? CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Well probably because I said I 98 1 deleted it off my phone which I had, I assume and he, I guess 2 he made the assumption that was the only place I had the 3 recording which it wasn’t. You know, obviously I had saved it 4 somewhere else but umm… 5 6 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Did you make reference… I’m sorry, go ahead. 7 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: No, I just, I think he, he made 8 the, he probably made the assumption that because I had 9 deleted it off my phone that that was the only way to get a 10 copy of it so… 11 12 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Did you state to umm… Chief Herzog that you didn’t have the, the recording? 13 14 15 16 17 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I said I deleted it. I deleted it and… SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Did you, did you tell him you don’t have it? CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Umm… I don’t think I said I don’t 18 have it. I just said I deleted it and he said, what did you 19 record it on? I said, on my personal phone. And he said, well 20 we’ll need to get it, we’ll need to get that to Mike Sly so we 21 can get it off of there. And I said, I said, you’re not 22 getting my personal phone. I’ll get you a copy of it. I mean 23 obviously I told him I had it because he told me to get it to 24 him by the end of the day so… umm… yeah, I told him I would 25 get it to him. I asked him what medium he wanted it on, he 26 said, get, I need that by the end of the day. I said, okay, 99 1 I’ll get it to you by the end of the day and which I did. 2 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Did you understand by refusing 3 to umm… turn your phone over to the chief that you potentially 4 would be in violation of policy? 5 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I didn’t see it that way. To be 6 honest with you, at the time, I, I was debating whether, you 7 know, I needed to talk to an attorney about whether I needed 8 to even, whether that was even public record or not. You know, 9 it was my personal, the way I saw it, a counseling, a 10 disciplinary session between umm… me and HR and the Chief and 11 I had asked to record it. They didn’t record their own copy of 12 it. So umm… you know, I think at the time did I, did I 13 recognize whether it was even a public record or not and to be 14 honest with you, I don’t even know for sure it still is but I 15 umm… I think, you know, at the time I decided, you know, this 16 is most likely a public record umm… and that I probably needed 17 to give the Chief a copy of it. So that’s, that’s why I 18 complied with what he asked. 19 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Yeah, you would, you would say 20 definitely with the topic of the meeting it was business 21 related? 22 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Oh for sure, it was work-related. 23 You know, I just didn’t, at the time not having time to 24 research it or you know, look into it or talk to an attorney 25 whether that particular recording would be the same as if I 26 recorded something out on the street you know what I mean. 100 1 That, that’s a blatant public record. Was this a public 2 record, I don’t know, probably. I know these are but umm… I 3 didn’t know the answer to that at the time so, but you know, 4 like I said, this conversation was probably about thirty (30) 5 seconds and umm… I don’t think I refused to give him a copy of 6 it, obviously I did. 7 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: As far as your umm… 8 interaction with umm… the Chief and umm… Ms. Charles during, 9 during your meeting on the, on the 28th of January, umm… I… in 10 listening to the recording, there was some concerns about umm… 11 how you addressed them and you spoke to them… 12 CAPTAIN HENLSEY: Mm-Hm (meaning yes). 13 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Umm… didn’t seem typical of, 14 of my contacts with you in the past Captain… 15 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yeah. 16 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Umm… would umm… just concerned 17 with umm… with your respect to the, the Chief of Police and 18 umm… how you addressed him and spoke to him in that meeting. 19 Can you explain how it got to that point? 20 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Well, first of all, I, I don’t 21 remember addressing Ms. Charles at all. I don’t even think, I 22 mean I may have looked at her when I was talking but I don’t 23 remember addressing her at all or, or really saying anything 24 directly to her other than when I asked, can I record this. 25 Umm… so umm… I’m not… I was a little confused as to how I was 26 disrespectful to her because I don’t even remember addressing 101 1 her but umm… other than she was just in, in here. Umm… as far 2 as me addressing the Chief, I don’t think I was, was, I 3 definitely was emotional. I was definitely upset. Umm… I don’t 4 remember being disrespectful to him and I addressed him as 5 Chief and I addressed Colonel Rebholz as Colonel Rebholz. Umm… 6 it definitely got heated. He was yelling at me. I mean as you 7 guys probably heard. At one point he, you know, umm… I said 8 something about umm… you know, this being idiotic or this is 9 idi… this is idiotic or something like that and he said, you 10 know, I’m not going to sit here while you call me an idiot. 11 And I said, I didn’t call you an idiot Chief. I didn’t call 12 him an idiot. I don’t, maybe that’s what he heard or thought 13 he heard. But umm… umm… like I said, yeah, I, it was, it was a 14 little heated. He got heated too. You know, he was raising his 15 voice and umm… I don’t see how I reacted as disrespectful. I 16 see it, was I emotional, yeah. If you guys had been treated 17 like this for the last two (2) years I, I think anybody would 18 be emotional umm… dealing with the frustration that we’ve had 19 of trying, for trying to do what’s right and trying to do 20 what’s appropriate and we continue to be punished for it. So 21 that was, yeah, that, I was emotional. Umm… I don’t think I 22 was disrespectful other than the fact that you know, I, yeah, 23 I had an emotional reaction to how I was being treated. So, 24 but I think, you know, when you listen to that interview 25 you’ll, you know, there was the initial emotional reaction, 26 things calmed down, he calmed down. I was addressing him as 102 1 Chief and Sir and Colonel Rebholz the same and umm… at the end 2 of that umm… interview as I’m sure you heard, I apologized for 3 my emotional reaction and tried to explain that, you know, I 4 was in no way trying to be disrespectful. I had an emotional 5 reaction and apologized for that. So it is what it is, you 6 know, I can’t undo it but I don’t think I was anymore heated 7 than he was. You know, so… 8 9 10 LIEUTENANT HAERING: I don’t have anything further, do you? SERGEANT WEINGARTER: I don’t think so and I mean I 11 don’t, my thought is, probably for maybe answer a question you 12 may have is, I think, I think a lot of the back story of this… 13 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Mm-Hm (meaning yes). 14 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Umm… you have brought to the 15 attention to HR and to Mr. Burks, so I think that we’re 16 looking at this individual complaint at this point, whether or 17 not the township asks us to look into it any further or, or 18 they look into it or how they investigate the other issues 19 that have been brought to their attention, that have either 20 been handled or being handled or still need to be looked into. 21 Umm… I don’t know if that’s going to be… for, for us to look 22 into or, to, for someone else to look into. At this point 23 we’re just looking at umm… the, the two (2), basically the two 24 (2) meetings between you and the Chief. 25 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yeah. 26 LIEUTENANT HAERING: You and the Chief, yeah. 103 1 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I understand. Well like I said, I 2 know it’s not up to you guys, umm… I’m probably going to try 3 to meet with, meet with umm… them directly right now because 4 there’s a, there’s, there’s, there’s plenty of other things 5 that need to be looked into as well. Umm… but you know, since, 6 since I have been put in this position and continue to be 7 treated this way then I’m going to, it’s, you know, I’m going 8 to put out everything that I’m aware of and know of so that it 9 can be looked into. But I, I appreciate your guys’ time and, 10 and if there’s any other questions you guys got for me I’m… 11 12 LIEUTENANT HAERING: No, unless there’s something else… 13 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: No, I think, I think like Sergeant 14 Weingartner said, it’s probably best I just, I pass this 15 information on to them and then they can direct any 16 investigations how they, how they see fit from there. So… 17 18 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Yeah, you understand how these are. We look at… 19 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Right. And I just, the reason I 20 laid that out guys is because I, you can’t understand the 21 context if I don’t… 22 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Right. 23 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Give you the back story of what’s 24 going on. 25 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Sure. 26 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: So umm… umm… yeah, I apologize for 104 1 taking so much of your time but that’s, I don’t know how else 2 to explain it without telling you. And that, that’s the tip of 3 the iceberg. Like I said we, we would be sitting here a lot 4 longer if I tried to give you every detail of what’s, what’s 5 going on but I’ll just, I’ll just have to lay that out with 6 the, with the township and HR and in hopes that somebody over 7 here will do the right thing. 8 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Okay. 9 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay. We’re going to end this 10 11 interview at 12:10. THEREUPON, THE INTERVIEW CONCLUDED. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 105 1 HENSLEY INTERVIEW (2), FEBRUARY 21, 2020: 2 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Today’s date is February 21st, 3 2020, the time is 2:35. Those present is Captain Jamie 4 Hensley, Lieutenant Paul Haering and Sergeant Mark 5 Weingartner. We are here today to discuss IIU2020-01, this is 6 a second interview with Captain Hensley. 7 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Umm… I appreciate you guys meeting 8 back with me. I apologize to drag you in here late on a 9 Friday. Umm… I just have some additional, I told you guys 10 earlier that I tried to give you kind of a broad overview of 11 the back story of what’s going on here with me being 12 retaliated against and umm… and that there was some additional 13 things that I’m, you know, planned on meeting with township 14 and HR about. Umm… I did speak to Tonya Charles and umm… you 15 know, we’ll be looking to set something up next week. But I 16 wanted to, I feel the need to bring it your guys’ attention as 17 well because the more I thought about these additional things, 18 it just umm… I just see more of how, why I’m being targeted 19 because I have, so there’s the retaliation for all those 20 things but then there’s the additional information that I 21 have. Because of what’s going on right now I believe with umm… 22 with the Couch Case and some records release that may or may 23 not be coming out in the very near future, umm… things are 24 heating up and I believe that I know things, the Chief knows I 25 know things and it makes me feel like umm… you know, he’s, 26 he’s just looking to get rid of me to get rid of umm… other 106 1 improprieties that I’m aware of that he knows I know about. 2 Umm… so I’d like to bring those to your attention and umm… you 3 know, what you guys do with that information is, you know, is 4 up to you and, you know, I know you guys will figure out where 5 to go with that. Umm… I’ll, I’ll obviously be passing 6 information onto the township as well but I just want to, 7 being that you guys are looking into things and that umm… I’m 8 trying to, I’m trying to explain why I believe I’m retaliated 9 against, I think, I think I have to give you this additional 10 information umm… to, to be on record. Umm… so the first thing 11 I mentioned, you guys were both I’m sure aware of what 12 happened the night that, that umm… Jeff Couch was arrested for 13 domestic violence and umm… you know, that came out in the 14 media that the Chief had made some calls and talked to a judge 15 and supposedly called umm… Chief Dwyer at the Sheriff’s Office 16 tried to, was umm… in his words, trying to, you know, just a 17 friend, trying to go visit him as a friend. Umm… I don’t know 18 what fully transpired there, only he does. I just know it, it 19 made us look, you know, obviously it was embarrassing and a 20 detriment to the department. But umm… there’s some records 21 requests I’m aware of now that umm… some additional records 22 request and I know this from, actually I first heard it from 23 Matt Beiser umm… and talked to the Chief about it to make sure 24 he was aware that, that the media has request records 25 surrounding a call that patrol went on at the Couch Residence. 26 Umm… I don’t have the exact dates for you but a couple weeks 107 1 ago umm… where the Chief’s 2 said that the media was up there and, and Ms., Mrs. Couch was 3 umm… requesting assistance umm… and umm… 4 police department and asked for officers to go up there to get 5 rid of the media. Umm… apparently there’s been records request 6 surrounding that call and also text messages between the Chief 7 and Shelly Couch and I’m not aware, this is just what I’m 8 aware of. I don’t know if there’s other requests for other 9 texts between other people umm… but I am aware that some of 10 these texts were, are pretty, pretty damning in nature umm… 11 and some things were said to the effect of, the Chief making 12 comments like umm… how dare they mess, how dare they fuck with 13 people of privilege or something along those lines and Shelly 14 Couch making comments about not wanting it to, the media being 15 there to affect his sentencing, Couch’s sentencing. So I don’t 16 know, I haven’t seen all of those. I’ve seen umm… actually 17 came across some of the texts today inadvertently on the Q 18 drive where we put our scanned documents because I was, I was 19 scanning some other documents to put with a PSL. Umm… I know 20 that’s been pending for a while and I don’t know where that’s 21 at. I don’t think, as far as I know, it hasn’t went out yet. 22 The Chief hasn’t really told us if it has or hasn’t. Umm… but 23 I know that it’s, it’s, it’s not going to be, it’s not going 24 to be good for us when and if those do go out assuming they’re 25 public record. And like I said, I haven’t really, I’m aware of 26 it, haven’t been directly involved in that chain but I think , had contacted him and had called the 108 1 it’s interesting the timing of this considering umm… you know, 2 the Chief’s aware that I was going to go to the township. I 3 tried to set up a meeting with Ms. Brown, Lisa Brown a couple 4 of weeks ago and I held off on that because I wanted to get 5 some more preparation done for the meeting and umm… so I know, 6 I know he knows that and I know he knows I umm… retained an 7 attorney. So umm… because I mentioned retaining an attorney to 8 Ms. Brown, so I feel that’s just further reason for him 9 stepping up the retaliation by trying to drum up charges 10 against me and, and to try to get rid of me in my… 11 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Captain, I just, not to… 12 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: In my mind. 13 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: I mean not to interrupt you… 14 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: 15 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: I just have a question about 16 Yes sir. that. 17 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yes. 18 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: In reference to umm… the 19 public records request for the, the text messages and stuff… 20 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yeah. 21 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Reference to Couch… 22 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yeah. 23 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Umm… are you saying that 24 there’s text messages that were requested that haven’t been 25 released or are you just informing us that there’s been a 26 public… 109 1 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I don’t know… 2 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Record request? 3 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I don’t know if they’ve been 4 released or no. Just informing you that there is, that there 5 is one and I don’t know if the records have gone out or not. 6 If they, if they have, I’m, then obviously the media is 7 sitting on it. But no, I’m not saying they umm… haven’t been 8 released… 9 10 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Okay. CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I don’t, I don’t really know, I 11 just want you guys to know I’m aware, I’m aware of them. I’m 12 aware of the damning nature of them and that umm… you know, 13 umm… I know the Chief knows I’m aware of them. I don’t know if 14 he’s aware that he knows I know some of the content of them. 15 Umm… so there’s some additional information that’s been going 16 on to the back story umm… which kind of goes back to this 17 allegation about my 18 and the Lieutenant process and umm… the umm… community affairs 19 sergeant posting. So you may or may not be aware, you know, 20 I’m sure you probably are, for several years now there’s been 21 complaints about the Chief’s association with Brent Lovell. 22 Brent and Courtney Lovell in particular, that there’s, there’s 23 accusations of fraternization going on there. That, that, that 24 Brent is openly, openly talks about how they text each other 25 every night, that they’re, that he’s got a close relation with 26 the Chief. There’s people that have complained about that. I Facebook post being related to work 110 1 know the Chief is aware of that. Umm… they umm… you know, when 2 Steve Seitzman was on the way up umm… he wrote a rebuttal to 3 one of his PSLs in which umm… Brent Lovell actually put some 4 false information in there and umm… you know, whether it was 5 ever actually looked into that, whether he was dishonest or 6 not, I’m not aware that it was. He was just told to change it. 7 Umm… but in that complaint umm… it was laid out concerns and 8 complaints about fraternization going on between the Chief and 9 Brent Lovell and people were concerned that he has a direct 10 line to the Chief’s office and he gets preferred treatment. 11 Umm… what if anything ever happened with that, I assume they 12 just filed it. I’m not aware that ever… anything was ever 13 looked into by the township umm… or the Chief’s office. Umm… 14 but that fraternization and that complaint about umm… has been 15 going on for years umm… and it’s nothing new. There was 16 information that Captain Gutman brought to Colonel Herzog’s 17 attention that umm… when the (INAUDIBLE) internal, before, 18 when the (INAUDIBLE) situation happened with the mailbox umm… 19 the email that the Chief originally sent out basically 20 admonishing whoever did this, you know, umm… I didn’t even 21 know about that incident until I saw the email. I had to go to 22 the Chief and say, what’s going on with this. Umm… Captain 23 Gutman had received information that before that went out, the 24 Chief sent that to Brent Lovell to review before he sent it 25 out. Umm… and there’s been, Joe got information from a 26 Lieutenant and the Sergeant that that, somebody had, they had 111 1 seen it, that it had gone to Brent before that went out. Umm… 2 the Chief mentioned that, or the, Captain Gutman mentioned 3 that to the Chief, the Chief denied it, I don’t know anything, 4 you know, that didn’t happen. Umm… obviously if it did happen 5 it was very concerning to me that you know, I don’t even know 6 about it, it doesn’t go to the command staff to review before 7 it goes out. It goes to Brent Lovell. Umm… but that 8 information is out there. So this, this is long before I’m 9 pulled in about my , this is long before my 10 alleged Facebook post that had something to do with creating 11 dissention in the department about the lieutenant process and 12 the job posting for community affairs sergeant. That 13 dissention and that frustration has already been out there for 14 years. Umm… so whoever the Chief has trolling my 15 Facebook page, I don’t know because he wouldn’t tell me. I 16 know it’s not his 17 and Brent Lovell has her blocked from the FOP page so somebody 18 is obviously is trolling her page trying to decide what’s 19 work-related and what’s not. My 20 about the police department and the cronyism thing had nothing 21 to do with the police department. But if somebody sees that 22 that already has this perception about the fraternization 23 going on with Brent Lovell who finished number two (2) on the, 24 on the lieutenant test and who got one (1) of the positions to 25 community affairs can make their own connection, right. I 26 can’t control when somebody sees something that they think is 112 because she deleted my and umm… rarely posts anything 1 related or not related. But that’s where that perception comes 2 from, not from my 3 and it’s out there for years and the Chief is aware of it. So 4 umm… you know, again, what gets done with that information, 5 you know, I, at this point I just want people to do the right 6 thing and I’m tired of, I’m tired of waiting to see if people 7 are going to do what’s right. Umm… I’m aware that the Chief 8 you know, has done questionable things with employee records 9 before. Umm… there was an opening in admin and I don’t have 10 the, I don’t have the dates for you and I apologize for that 11 but Jeannie Quinn had applied for a position over at the 12 Administration Building and she had a negative PSL in her file 13 and the Chief wanted to make sure that umm… the township did 14 not see that because they, he did not want it to mess up her 15 chance to go over to the Administration Building because he 16 wants to get rid of her. So he tells Courtney to pull that 17 from the file, I’ll, you know, I’m going to be reviewing that, 18 I’ll be reviewing that so basically it won’t be in there, 19 right. And that wasn’t the first, I’ve seen him do that on 20 numerous occasions. He did it with Steve Seitzman when umm… 21 Steve Seitzman was applying to Centerville and the background 22 investigators came to look at his file, he had the negative 23 PSL umm… that I just told you he wrote the rebuttal to about 24 the fraternization with umm… Lovell. Umm… he had that one 25 pulled out to review so it wouldn’t be in there because he 26 wanted to get rid of, he wanted Steve to be gone. So he didn’t 113 Facebook post. It’s been out there 1 want to, he didn’t want something in there that would be 2 negative to where they’re like, oh, no thanks, we don’t want 3 this guy. Umm… now you can argue, whether you agree or 4 disagree, all I know is, there’s what’s right, right is right 5 and wrong is wrong and manipulating somebody’s file because, 6 to say, I’m pulling, I’m going to be reviewing this so it’s 7 not in there when somebody sees it when you know it’s been, 8 it’s public record just like anything else and to me if you’re 9 withholding that then you’re withholding the public record. So 10 umm… these are the kind of things that are… that I’m aware of 11 and this is the kind of thing that I brought to Larry’s 12 attention, you know, umm… in April of last year that there’s, 13 there’s a certain culture of impropriety that I don’t want to 14 be associated with, you know. Umm… I know we’re, we’re all not 15 perfect and we don’t always make the most perfect decisions 16 but there’s, there’s doing what’s right and then there’s doing 17 what’s shady and what’s underhanded and what’s self-serving 18 and umm… I feel because I will not umm… play a part in that or 19 condone it or umm… quietly stand aside and not be, you know, a 20 just keep my mouth shut that, that that is further reason that 21 we’re sitting here today with this, this, this frivolous 22 allegations against me in the internal. So you know, I know 23 it’s going to come off as mud slinging and I apologize for 24 dragging you guys into it but as I told you before, I’ve tried 25 to handle things man to man with the Chief. I tried to handle 26 things in conversations without documenting things, without 114 1 filing complaints and umm… and this is where it’s got me. So 2 umm… I’m, I’m left with no other choice but to document and 3 put things on paper and tell you guys what I know and where, 4 you know, where that information goes is, is, is up to you 5 guys, but like I said, I’ll, you know, I’m going to be meeting 6 with the township and HR as well. But I thought it was 7 pertinent to your investigation and your, you know, when umm… 8 I’m trying to explain to you what’s going on, what’s happening 9 to me. Umm… I don’t think you have the full context until I 10 tell you, look, there’s, there’s way more going on here than 11 just umm… you know, umm… my 12 that, that somebody thought was related to the police 13 department. Umm… so… that’s, that’s what I have for you. If, 14 if you guys have any questions I’m happy to answer any, any 15 follow-up questions you have. 16 17 posted something on Facebook LIEUTENANT HAERING: Other than this current internal that we’re investigating… 18 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yes sir. 19 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Everything else you’ve already 20 told to HR and either has been looked into or you’re going to 21 tell HR? Is that correct? 22 23 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yes, or I’m going to tell, yes, yeah. 24 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Have you… 25 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I don’t know what’s been looked 26 into or not looked into. I can’t speak to that. I can only 115 1 tell you what I’ve brought forward and what was actually done 2 with any of that information, I don’t know. I know there was 3 umm… the original umm… complaints we brought forward against 4 , the Chief did type up a memo kind of detailing 5 what his interpretation of what we said and umm… and I didn’t 6 dispute that. Umm… that went to HR as my understanding but we 7 agreed, the Chief asked, do we want this handled formally or 8 informally. I said, I’m fine with it being handled informally. 9 I just want the behavior to stop. I want to come to work in a, 10 in an appropriate environment and not you know, not feel 11 uncomfortable. And umm… you know, so that was probably a month 12 after that, we got a very brief memo saying it was concluded, 13 no clue what happened. You know, he tells me later in my 14 evaluation that they, that my complaints were looked into and 15 umm… it was determined that nothing, nothing was being done 16 wrong. And what, as far as what happened I don’t know but the 17 memo just basically told me this, this has been concluded and 18 umm… umm… interestingly enough, since I brought that up, 19 during the time Joe and I brought those complaints forward and 20 the memo went to HR and the time the Chief served us with a 21 memo saying it’s been concluded and we weren’t told what was 22 done, what was the finding umm… a policy change was made to 23 the, to the discriminatory harassment policy. As you are 24 aware, command staff, all of command staff signs off on every 25 policy recommendation change. Umm… Joe and I were left out of 26 that for whatever reason. Umm… what was changed was the 116 1 notification process when the investigation is concluded and 2 it was changed to include the fact that umm… the complainant 3 will not be notified what corrective action or discipline if 4 any is taken umm… with the offender once they do the 5 investigation. That’s what they changed. Before that, it said 6 we would be notified and they changed that in the middle of 7 this investigation excluding me and Joe from that meeting and 8 umm… and then after the change was made served us with the 9 memo saying this was handled but we weren’t told how it was 10 handled or what happened and what the result was. So to me 11 that’s, that’s shady in and of itself but umm… umm… you got to 12 wonder what was, what are we trying to cover up you know. We 13 could, I could either be told this was investigated and here’s 14 what we found or, and there was no violation or yeah, there 15 was a violation umm… or you know, an action was taken or, you 16 don’t, I don’t even have to know what the specific 17 disciplinary action or corrective action was but it would be 18 nice to know whether my complaint was validated or not. Umm… 19 so, anyway, so… yeah, it, to answer your question LT. I, I 20 don’t know what’s been done with each piece of information 21 I’ve brought forward umm… but I have, what I told you earlier 22 and then what I’m telling you now, if it hasn’t been reported 23 to the township yet, it will be. And umm… like I said, 24 there’s, I have a much more detailed document to lay 25 everything out that umm… that umm… that I’ll have. But umm… it 26 will go into much more description and detail than what we’ve 117 1 talked about here. But I wanted to make sure I got the main 2 points across to you guys and I didn’t feel comfortable 3 leaving here today without saying, you know what, I told you 4 there was this other information. I think it’s pertinent 5 because I think it’s pertinent when I’m talking about the 6 retaliation against me and why it is that things are heating 7 up now and, and all the sudden umm… I’ve gone from being a, an 8 exemplary employee to umm… looking at, they’re obviously 9 trying to fire me here, so is what I’m seeing and I got on 10 11 12 other choice but to defend myself. LIEUTENANT HAERING: And it’s also part of why you have frustrations. 13 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Absolutely. 14 LIEUTENANT HAERING: For the sake of a… 15 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Absolutely, because it’s… 16 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Lack of a better word. 17 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: When you’re treated so unfairly for 18 so long, I mean it’s, it’s, and you still try to come in here 19 and have a good attitude and do a good job and work hard for 20 this township and, you know, I love this department. I love 21 the people in it and I’m trying to do a good job. I went up 22 there for, for that sole reason was to try to help this, you 23 know, to work hard for the people in this department and umm… 24 it, it, you know it wasn’t for the pay. It wasn’t for the 25 schedule. It was cause I thought I could help make a 26 difference and so when you’re still trying to do that and 118 1 you’re being umm… you know, mistreated and discriminated 2 against because you’re trying to do what’s right and you’re 3 trying to help other people do what’s right, umm… yeah, it’s 4 frustrating. You know, so… 5 LIEUTENANT HAERING: You got anything else that… 6 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I don’t think so. That’s, that’s 7 just the stuff I umm… like I said, I mentioned in the earlier 8 interview that, yeah, I got some additional information but 9 umm… 10 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: Right. 11 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: It makes sense to, you know, I’ll 12 tell it to you guys and I’ll tell it to them but it, it may or 13 may not be pertinent to your investigation but to umm… to just 14 leave it unsaid didn’t make much sense to me after trying to 15 give you the entire picture of everything else. So I think 16 it’s pertinent to, to the reason that umm… you know, I’m being 17 treated this way and retaliated against. So… 18 19 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And like, one (1) more time, this information you plan on… 20 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yes, giving to the township… 21 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Giving to the township… 22 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: At some… 23 LIEUTENANT HAERING: And HR and… 24 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: At some point when I’m able to meet 25 with them, yeah, I’m going to, I’m going to lay out everything 26 I told you and in much more explicit detail. Like I said, 119 1 obviously I have it written down so it’s, I can give a lot 2 more detail and description of what’s, what’s going on so… 3 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay. 4 SERGEANT WEINGARTNER: That’s it. 5 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Are you done? 6 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yes sir. 7 LIEUTENANT HAERING: Okay. 8 CAPTAIN HENLSEY: Thank you. 9 LIEUTENANT HAERING: The umm… time is 2:55. 10 THEREUPON, THE INTERVIEW WAS CONCLUDED. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 120 1 RECORDING 2, JANUARY 28, 2020: 2 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Okay. 3 CHIEF HERZOG: Okay, I’m going to answer your 4 question about umm… what recent issues, and there was, and I, 5 as I’ve stated, this may or may not be umm… connected to 6 operations in the department but the perception out in the 7 department is and it’s caused some disruption umm… amongst the 8 officers, a lot of discussion that they feel is umm… umm… 9 coming from you. It was a posting that was posted, it says, 10 today’s HS vocabulary word, cronyism, is the practice of 11 partiality in awarding jobs and other advantages to friends or 12 trusted colleagues especially in politics big and small and 13 between politicians and supportive organizations. For 14 instance, this includes appointing cronies to the position of 15 authority regardless of their qualifications. This Facebook 16 post went out and the talk… 17 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I don’t even have Facebook, Chief. 18 CHIEF HERZOG: Okay, this was a posting 19 out. This posting and I’m not telling you… 20 21 put CAPTAIN HENSLEY: You’re calling me in here about a posting that by my 22 ? CHIEF HERZOG: Yes. I am not telling you, I’m not 23 controlling her posting and she can post anything she likes. 24 However… 25 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Apparently not. 26 CHIEF HERZOG: If, will you listen to me? If you, if 121 1 it has a nexus to this police department and causes… 2 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: How is there a nexus… 3 CHIEF HERZOG: Listen to me… 4 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Between that and this police 5 department? 6 CHIEF HERZOG: You need to listen to me right now. 7 MS. CHARLES: So hold on… 8 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: This is ridiculous. 9 MS. CHARLES: We’re going to just get… 10 11 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I’ll be contacting an attorney right after this meeting. 12 13 CHIEF HERZOG: Jamie, I am talking to you, okay, Captain… 14 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I’m listening. 15 CHIEF HERZOG: Listen to me. 16 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I’m listening Chief. 17 CHIEF HERZOG: When it has a nexus to this department 18 and causes disruption, I am telling you that the perception is 19 amongst the officers that this was posted, it was posted 20 within forty-eight (48) hours of the job assignment for 21 Sergeant Lovell and Sergeant McCalla. The perception amongst 22 the officers and where the disruption comes, is it is because 23 this was posted so close and that to that, that they believe 24 the nexus is to that assignment. It has caused major 25 discussion amongst officers before briefing and during to 26 where that, I’ve got feedback that, wow, that’s inappropriate, 122 1 shows dysfunctional command, astonishing that was posted by a 2 captain’s 3 created additional speculation that this makes it a, how did 4 Brent finish number two (2) on the list, is this why. There 5 was also officers that said umm… how do I know when to believe 6 him, is it what he says or what his 7 obviously getting information from him. That’s where the 8 dysfunction comes. 9 . I’ve also heard that there was umm… it’s, this posts because she’s CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Can I ask a question? 10 CHIEF HERZOG: Yes. 11 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Where in the world is there any 12 nexus in that post to this police department? 13 14 CHIEF HERZOG: The posting, I’m telling what the officers’ discussion is. 15 16 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I don’t care what the officers say. My … 17 CHIEF HERZOG: I’m telling you… 18 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Posts have nothing to do with the 19 20 police department. CHIEF HERZOG: It does affect how the police 21 department operates, is what the post appears… 22 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I can’t… 23 CHIEF HERZOG: I’m not telling you… 24 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I don’t have any… 25 CHIEF HERZOG: There is a nexus. 26 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Zero conversations with anybody 123 1 about anything like that. 2 3 CHIEF HERZOG: Okay, I’m not telling you there is a nexus… 4 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: And I don’t control… 5 CHIEF HERZOG: I’m telling you… 6 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: What my 7 CHIEF HERZOG: What’s going on out there. 8 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I don’t have any control over what, 9 10 what my does or doesn’t post. posts. How do you know that doesn’t have anything to do with politics or any number of things she posts about? 11 CHIEF HERZOG: I do not. 12 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: It doesn’t have anything to do with 13 the police department. 14 CHIEF HERZOG: I do not know that. 15 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Who, how does anybody even make 16 that connection to the police department? 17 18 CHIEF HERZOG: I’m telling you the discussion amongst the officers is that’s where the disruptions happen. 19 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: How, what, what… 20 CHIEF HERZOG: I didn’t have the discussion. This is 21 22 officers… CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I haven’t either but what 23 connection in that post connects that to the police 24 department? 25 26 CHIEF HERZOG: I just told you, I’m not aware that it is. I’m telling you the perception. 124 1 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Then why am I sitting in HR Chief? 2 CHIEF HERZOG: Because the disruption I have amongst 3 my officers… 4 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: This is ridiculous. 5 CHIEF HERZOG: Is… 6 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: My 7 my can post whatever the hell wants. 8 CHIEF HERZOG: If you please listen… 9 MS. CHARLES: That’s… 10 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: This is ridiculous. 11 MS. CHARLES: Okay, but what Chief… 12 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: This is the most ridiculous thing 13 I’ve ever heard. 14 15 MS. CHARLES: Okay, but you have a different standard… 16 17 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: My had a first amendment right to post… 18 MS. CHARLES: Absolutely, but we’re not saying that… 19 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Whatever she wants. 20 CHIEF HERZOG: Absolutely. 21 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I don’t control, approve… 22 MS. CHARLES: We’re asking that we can (INAUDIBLE)… 23 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Or view any of my 24 … I’m not even on Face… I don’t even have Facebook. 25 MS. CHARLES: Right, and that’s not the issue. 26 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I have no control over that. 125 1 MS. CHARLES: It’s just the issue of… 2 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: It is an issue because… 3 MS. CHARLES: What is causing umm… 4 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I’m sitting in HR being told that 5 I’ve somehow created dissention the police department. 6 CHIEF HERZOG: No 7 MS. CHARLES: No, we never said that. 8 CHIEF HERZOG: I’m telling you there’s dissention in 9 10 the… CAPTAIN HENSLEY: That post can be about anything, 11 about anybody. It doesn’t have anything to do with the police 12 department. 13 CHIEF HERZOG: Okay, are you going to let me finish? 14 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I’m not aware of when she posted it 15 or anything about it. I don’t have anything to do with her 16 posts. I don’t review them. I don’t approve them and if 17 anybody is talking about it that’s their own connection. If 18 they want to draw some kind of connection they can do that 19 with any other post she makes and say that’s about this or 20 that’s about that. I don’t have any control over that. 21 CHIEF HERZOG: Okay, now let me explain something, as 22 a member of the command staff we have a certain prestige and 23 responsibility. The officers see that. When they see something 24 come out that they believe is related, and that’s just what 25 I’m talking about now. I’m not saying it’s related and I’m not 26 telling your not to post stuff. That’s her, is her first 126 1 amendment right. But it has created disruption and dysfunction 2 in the police department, there’s questioning on command. It’s 3 undermining the command staff and that’s what’s happening 4 here. That’s what I’m talking about. 5 6 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Because of an ambiguous post that has nothing to do with the police department? 7 CHIEF HERZOG: Yes. 8 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: How? How is there a nexus there? 9 CHIEF HERZOG: The nexus is the, the poor timing 10 that… 11 12 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Only if the reader draws that conclusion Chief. 13 CHIEF HERZOG: Apparently several readers have. 14 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: There’s, and I’m supposed to be in 15 control of that? It could be about anything. 16 17 CHIEF HERZOG: I’m trying to tell you what issue I have going on and you’re immediately jumping to your… 18 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I under… I completely understand 19 what you’re saying about the issue Chief and if that’s what 20 people are talking about I understand how that could be a 21 problem. But there’s nothing about that post or anything that 22 I’ve said or done for anybody to draw that conclusion. 23 24 CHIEF HERZOG: I’m telling you the perception amongst the officers is this is coming from the Captain. 25 26 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: But there’s nothing in that post to say that. 127 1 CHIEF HERZOG: Absolutely none. 2 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: And there’s nothing I said or done 3 to… 4 CHIEF HERZOG: And, and I’m not… 5 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Suggest that. 6 CHIEF HERZOG: I’m not saying that either. 7 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: But then how am I being held 8 accountable or being chastised… 9 CHIEF HERZOG: I’m not holding you, I’m telling you 10 what I expect in the future from you. You asked for one (1) 11 example of something that was inappropriate and I gave you an 12 example of something that has caused disruption. 13 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: But… 14 CHIEF HERZOG: Whether it’s a nexus or not, it 15 appears it is, it might now be. 16 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: How? How does that appear… 17 CHIEF HERZOG: The timing and the conversations that… 18 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Have I ever said that… there’s 19 something wrong with the lieutenant posting or that there’s 20 some cronyism going on? Have I… 21 CHIEF HERZOG: Not to me, no. But people are… 22 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: But how is that post even 23 24 connected? CHIEF HERZOG: I’m telling you the view, the view of 25 the officers are, this is coming from you and it’s undermining 26 the command, whether your meant intentions, whether that 128 1 was her intentions or not, that’s what has happened. You have 2 consequences of, you might have intended it and it might not 3 have anything to do with it. This is just one (1) that I’m 4 telling you about. 5 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Okay, what’s, what else? 6 CHIEF HERZOG: There, there’s another time I called 7 you in umm… and discussed about you not umm… just inquired 8 about you not assisting umm… 9 access to OLEG… 10 11 with getting her CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I did assist her. I believe we went through that by detail. 12 CHIEF HERZOG: We went… 13 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Not only did I not assist her, I 14 offered to, when she had trouble with Rita’s access I offered 15 to log her on. I stood there at her desk with her and made 16 sure she got through it okay and if she needed to, I would 17 come back or she could come to my office. 18 19 20 CHIEF HERZOG: You assisted her on the second time around, you sent her off to someone else the first time. CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I didn’t send her off. I said, you 21 can go up to records where they have open computers and people 22 are right there to help you if you need it or you, I can log 23 you on. And she chose to go up to records first. I would, we 24 went through that. 25 26 CHIEF HERZOG: Well, I’m just telling you, there was another post immediately after that that I felt was a nexus 129 1 2 3 umm… because of past issues where it, it read umm… CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I’m curious who is trolling my Facebook page considering your and Courtney 4 defriended her on Facebook and the FOP has her blocked from 5 their page so I’m wondering… 6 CHIEF HERZOG: I… 7 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Who, who is it that’s trolling my 8 9 Facebook posts to see… CHIEF HERZOG: I can’t tell you that, I don’t have 10 that information. I can tell you what comes to me with 11 information. It was a person… 12 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: So you don’t think it was… counter- 13 productive to department operations by having your 14 Courtney defriend my 15 16 17 and after we had the issues with ? You don’t think that was a problem? CHIEF HERZOG: I have no idea if they defriended, I don’t even know what defriended… 18 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Well they did. 19 CHIEF HERZOG: Blocked, any of that sort. I mean I… 20 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: They did. 21 CHIEF HERZOG: Don’t know that means. Umm… 22 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Ask Brent, he knows. 23 CHIEF HERZOG: Okay. Well it was after we had that 24 conversation it was umm… I’m so fortunate to work with a boss 25 with morals and integrity. And then, I’m very much, I’d love 26 to put out there, I’m just holding my card and waiting for the 130 1 exact perfect time to play them. That may or may not have a 2 relation but it sure seemed right after… 3 4 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I don’t know anything about that post and never heard it before Chief. 5 6 CHIEF HERZOG: Well I’m not saying you do. I’m just telling you… 7 8 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: But you’re, you’re holding me accountable for something that… 9 CHIEF HERZOG: I’m not holding you accountable… 10 11 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Has nothing to do with the police department. 12 CHIEF HERZOG: This is, this is, I got… 13 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: That’s my 14 CHIEF HERZOG: Jamie, I got plenty more to talk about 15 Facebook page. today. 16 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: My 17 CHIEF HERZOG: I got plenty more to talk about. 18 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I’ve never heard such… 19 CHIEF HERZOG: I’m telling you… 20 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Idiocy… 21 CHIEF: HERZOG: Jamie, I will not have you sit here 22 Facebook page. and tell me I’m an idiot. Do you understand that? 23 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I’m not saying that Chief. 24 CHIEF HERZOG: This is serious matters that’s causing 25 disruption in the department and causing problems with the 26 command and that’s is what is happening here. What I have is 131 1 several things that have continued to happen over the last 2 several months that have not seen improvement. We’ve tried to 3 work through, we’ve had conversations and yet, I’m still 4 having minor issues… 5 6 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: What is it that I’m not doing that you need me to do Chief? 7 CHIEF HERZOG: I need you to have normal 8 conversations around the police department. Not awkwardness, 9 not avoidance and not be afraid… 10 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Who is saying I don’t do that? 11 CHIEF HERZOG: I watch you not talk to 12 . I see you say good morning… 13 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I talk to her every day. 14 CHIEF HERZOG: I see you say good morning sometimes 15 16 and I see you say good evening. CAPTAIN HENSLEY: And any other workplace 17 interactions that are required. I’m professional and polite. I 18 interact with her for work, for workplace interactions. 19 CHIEF HERZOG: The incident I think Lieutenant 20 21 Colonel talked to you about… CAPTAIN HENSLEY: And I told you that I am not 22 comfortable with having anything more than professional work- 23 related interactions with her. 24 CHIEF HERZOG: That’s all I need. 25 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I’m not going to have personal chit 26 chat conversations with her. 132 1 CHIEF HERZOG: I don’t need personal chit chat. 2 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I’m not comfortable with that. 3 CHIEF HERZOG: I need normal office etiquette. 4 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I, I have that. If she can, if she 5 can point… 6 CHIEF HERZOG: I would disagree. 7 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: To a place where I’ve been rude or 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 nasty… CHIEF HERZOG: I’m not asking… CAPTAIN HENSLEY: To her or refused to work with her, I’m all ears. CHIEF HERZOG: There’s, at no point has she been involved in this. This is my observations. CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Has any point has she said that I’ve been rude or nasty to her or refused to work… 16 CHIEF HERZOG: I’ve not inquired her on that. 17 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: With her? 18 CHIEF HERZOG: I just, my own observations. I’ve not 19 involved another employee… 20 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I disagree. 21 CHIEF HERZOG: In on that. So there’s other issues I 22 have Jamie and what I’m looking at is what I expect and that’s 23 what this is outlining, what I expect and demand from a 24 command staff member. When you came up here, you started out 25 and little bumps in the road, no big deal, learning the way 26 but I question things that are said to me and come to me, 133 1 things like, from other supervisors, wow, he’s miserable up 2 there, does he really like being up there, is something going 3 on… those things are said to me. 4 5 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yeah, this all happened in the last two (2) years Chief, since was hired. 6 CHIEF HERZOG: So what are you saying? 7 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: That I’m unhappy, that I feel 8 unappreciated. I feel undervalued. I feel like I’m not trusted 9 to do my job. I feel like I had more authority and decision- 10 making powers as sergeant than I do now. But this all started 11 happening after I brought forward my initial concerns with 12 , that of which I don’t have any problem with 13 anymore. I haven’t seen inappropriate attire. She interacts 14 with me professionally. I interact with her professionally. I 15 don’t have any problems with 16 history to me. The problem I have now is, I feel like I don’t 17 have a relationship with you anymore and I, that’s not, that’s 18 not what I want. And I don’t go around telling people I’m 19 unhappy but I’m sure people must… maybe people sense that, 20 they see that and I can’t control that. But it’s not me going 21 around telling people or talking smack about you or the 22 department. I don’t do that and I think you know me better 23 than that. But yeah, I, I’m not going to lie to you, I’ve had 24 recent conversations with Lieutenant Colonel that I want to 25 see things improve, I want things to get better. I want them 26 to be the way they were when I first came up there. There . That’s ancient 134 1 obviously was a reason you promoted me and brought me up there 2 but now I don’t feel like whatever confidence you know, you 3 had in me at the time is, is not there anymore. Umm… so yeah, 4 that, maybe people are seeing that and you know, I’m sorry for 5 that but it’s not me going around and running my mouth or 6 complaining about things. 7 CHIEF HERZOG: I see the unhappiness and like I said, 8 when other people say, he seems miserable up there, and I, it 9 makes me question, is, is the command, is this command staff 10 where Jamie still belongs and those are the questions I have 11 and that’s why I want to set expectations. I want you to do 12 self-reflection, is this the place for you? Is this the 13 command staff you need to be a part of? Because it’s not 14 working, it’s not a smooth operation and then there’s issues 15 being created on the back side where I got to, I don’t, I got 16 to explain to officers how this may or may not be connected 17 and, but it sure seems like it’s his umm… umm… perception. And 18 then it makes me wonder, okay, am I being undermined and, and 19 I’m told one (1) thing and then said another… 20 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Right. 21 CHIEF HERZOG: And then another thing is being said. 22 So those are questions I have umm… with that. There’s umm… 23 there’s an event, I was curious how you attended an event umm… 24 Men of Honor… 25 THEREUPON, THE RECORDING CONCLUDED. 26 135 1 RECORDING 3, JANUARY 28, 2020: 2 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Cross communication for 3 us to accomplish everything that needs to be accomplished in 4 the organization… 5 MS. CHARLES: Right. 6 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: And that’s just a 7 frustration that umm… Jamie’s expressed to me and I do agree 8 with that. That umm… you know, but some of that is the 9 responsibility of the supervisors. We have these conversations 10 in the hallways umm… when we’re passing folks and they pass 11 things on. We go to meetings umm… and you know, Jamie in his 12 case, he might be in another meeting. He’s not there at the 13 time and then we’re out to a meeting so there’s that, there’s 14 no passing and that ultimate responsibility goes back to the 15 individual that passed the information on in the first place. 16 You get with your captain or you get with your sergeant or 17 your lieutenant to make sure they’re aware of that as well. So 18 that’s not just an issue up here with us, this is just umm… I 19 think a department battle that we all face and have, have 20 always faced but something we recognize that we need to be 21 better at. So… 22 CHIEF HERZOG: And I, I feel it’s, if, it will always 23 will be within my right as Chief, if I need something done and 24 the person I need it from is right there I’m going to them and 25 get it done. It’s that person’s responsibility to work it back 26 up and let their supervisor know… 136 1 MS. CHARLES: What’s going on. 2 CHIEF HERZOG: Hey, Chief just told me to do this or 3 just… 4 MS. CHARLES: Okay. 5 CHIEF HERZOG: Asked me to do this. Umm… and that’s 6 been told to everybody that, that I work through this is that, 7 hey, if I come say something to you… 8 MS. CHARLES: Uh-huh (meaning yes). 9 CHIEF HERZOG: Umm… 10 MS. CHARLES: Get it done and… 11 CHIEF HERZOG: Yeah, like if I walk by the Captain’s 12 office and he’s not there and I’m on, going somewhere then I’m 13 going back to that person and I’m get it, get the information 14 relayed. 15 MS. CHARLES: Okay. Do you understand that? 16 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yeah, and I would never… 17 MS. CHARLES: Okay. 18 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: He’s the Chief, I would never try 19 to take that away from the Chief. I just… 20 MS. CHARLES: You just want to be in the loop. 21 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Well I can just tell you it causes, 22 it causes, when it’s done consistently it causes umm… 23 dysfunction, you know, if I, if I constantly went to patrolmen 24 or a sergeant instead of going through my lieutenant and 25 dealing out tasks and things to follow up on and he knows 26 nothing about it then how can he be accountable for it. 137 1 MS. CHARLES: Okay. 2 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: And then when something goes wrong, 3 then you’re left holding the bag of why didn’t this get taken 4 care of. Well I didn’t even know about it. 5 MS. CHARLES: Okay. 6 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Umm… or how can I prioritize my 7 subordinates’ tasks if I don’t, if they’re getting other tasks 8 that I don’t know about it. But of course, I understand what 9 you’re saying Chief and I would never try to take that away 10 from you. And if that’s, if that’s what you said you would, 11 how you would handle every task well then, you’re the Chief 12 and I have to, I have to deal with that. I don’t think that’s 13 how things were, you know, when I first came up there. But 14 umm… but I accept that. If that’s the way things will be then 15 that’s the way things will be. I don’t have any control over 16 that. I can just tell you it causes, it causes problems and it 17 would cause problems if I did that with my subordinates, you 18 know. So… 19 CHIEF HERZOG: Well I can say that if I sent an email 20 to an officer or a sergeant I almost always CC the Lieutenant 21 and you or after I send that, then I say, oh, I forgot to send 22 you this and then you get the… 23 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Sometimes you do. 24 CHIEF HERZOG: Information. 25 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Not all the time but sometimes you 26 do, I, I’ll acknowledge that. 138 1 CHIEF HERZOG: But I, I mean I don’t disagree with 2 you. I can say in my nineteen (19) years of being part of 3 command staff I have never seen dysfunction that we’re having 4 or outside influence or just what is going on happening and 5 it’s just, it’s got to change. It’s got to stop and things 6 that are going on like I said, I’m not saying what the 7 officers perception is right but I’m saying what their 8 perception is and now I’m dealing with them thinking the 9 command staff is dysfunctional, that there’s being undermining 10 going on up front. Umm… that’s what I’m dealing with. Those 11 are the issues I have to deal with. I don’t have to deal with 12 anything else outside. 13 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I, Chief I understand that. I just, 14 I can’t even begin to fathom how what you read to me, how 15 anybody can make that connection, anything to the, any way to 16 the police department. I would be curious to find out why they 17 think that. 18 19 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Well can I throw something in here real quick? 20 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Sure. 21 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Let’s take you out of 22 this all together Jamie… 23 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Mm-Hm (meaning yes). 24 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Umm… you’re facing this 25 26 situation and this scenario, what do you do to resolve it? CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I’m facing, what a Facebook post by 139 1 somebody’s 2 3 ? LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: No, you’ve got employees… 4 MS. CHARLES: No, just the expectations. 5 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Coming to you saying, 6 hey… 7 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yeah. 8 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: The Captain says umm… 9 10 you know, one (1) thing. He supports me in my promotion or whatever the case might be… 11 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yeah. 12 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Umm… but on the side 13 this, this Facebook posting comes up or another, just like the 14 Chief read, those are, that’s not something that he dreamt up. 15 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Right. 16 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: That’s what he’s being 17 telled… told by the police officers in the organization so… 18 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yes, sir I… 19 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Now just, if you could 20 just separate yourself from that, now you’re faced with that, 21 they come to you with this information that is being thrown 22 out there, now what do you do to resolve it? 23 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Well, first thing I would think is 24 talk some sense into them and say, guys, you know, why, where 25 are you drawing that conclusion first of all. This is a, you 26 read me a definition of, of something that could be talking 140 1 about politics, could be talking about my 2 she works, could be talking about anything. There’s no, 3 there’s no dissention up front. There’s no, you know, this is 4 not… again, has nothing to do with me. I’m not even on 5 Facebook. It’s not like you got me liking it or saying some 6 comment, yeah, that’s what’s going on at work or com… my 7 posts a lot of things. She posts a lot of things about 8 integrity and about umm… things to do with, have to do with 9 whatever. It could be something going on with politics, could 10 be something going on with people she knows, friends she has, 11 where she works. Again, so, is all of that going to be looked 12 at through the lens of this must be Captain Hensley talking 13 because my 14 guys would want that standard for you. I don’t, I don’t know 15 what your guys, I don’t even know if your 16 work where is posting it? I mean I, I don’t think you … I know your is on Facebook, I don’t know if yours is Colonel but I 17 don’t know what they post, don’t have a clue but I know it 18 ain’t your responsibility to manage what they do or don’t 19 post. I know my 20 umm… and I recognize that I have a responsibility as a command 21 staff member. But again, if you can show me one (1) reason why 22 that should be connected back to this police department and 23 if… if I was aware of it and again, I’m not on Facebook and 24 I’m definitely not reviewing my 25 out. I’m, I would be curious to ask somebody how do you, how 26 do you even make that connection and what information do they 141 doesn’t work for the police department posts before they go 1 have about that post that anyway makes it relatable to the 2 police department. You know, I guess that would be my 3 question. I would put the, put the rumors to rest. You know, 4 you guys, you don’t even know what you’re talking about. It’s 5 a post, it’s an ambiguous post that has nothing to do with the 6 police department. If you want to draw that conclusion, well I 7 don’t know how you control that. I don’t. Maybe there’s other 8 information going on or other information that’s out there 9 besides that post that they’re making that conclusion, drawing 10 that conclusion. But it ain’t coming from me. 11 CHIEF HERZOG: That’s what I need to be assure of. 12 That this, this is an ambiguous post because it’s not my 13 perception that’s causing disruption. It’s officers out there 14 and having discussions before briefing to where then, other 15 people are pulled aside and said, hey, I don’t think you 16 should be talking about this and then it gets relayed up to 17 me. 18 19 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Oh, I understand that Chief but why are they drawing that conclusion from that post? 20 CHIEF HERZOG: I… 21 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: What is it even about? The 22 lieutenant process they… 23 CHIEF HERZOG: Anything I can say is timing, yes. 24 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: That makes no sense to me, really, 25 it really doesn’t. I understand if it said something about the 26 police department or there was comments from my relating 142 1 it to the police department or I was saying something on it 2 relating to the police department but how you draw that 3 conclusion… I’m, I’m at a loss unless there’s some other 4 information that, you know, that I’m not aware of but… Again, 5 I just, I almost fell out of this chair when you’re, when 6 you’re reading that to me and it just doesn’t make any sense 7 to me. But umm… I was also wondering if I could ask, it says 8 address work scheduling issues promptly and appropriately, I 9 didn’t know what that was referencing? 10 CHIEF HERZOG: That’s just an expectation. 11 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Okay, have I done, have I not done 12 something that I should have done scheduling wise or… 13 CHIEF HERZOG: No. 14 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Okay. 15 CHIEF HERZOG: No, this is just listing some 16 expectations I want to make sure happens, occurs. Umm… we’ve 17 talked about minor issues, umm… the vehicle assignment thing, 18 that was all jacked up but we, we worked through that. That 19 should have, shouldn’t have been presented to you the way it 20 was and made it more difficult to figure out. 21 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Well from, from what I could 22 gather, the issue with that was from, between, where, however 23 it got from Steve Oaks and 24 entered because what she entered was not what, was not what I, 25 Steve had written on paper. Now how that transpired I don’t 26 have, I don’t know but, but I know there’s been some minor , how it was 143 1 typos and mistakes made that she’s made recently that again, 2 I’m not umm… 3 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: She typically sends… 4 CAPTAIN HENSELY: I’m not throwing stones but… 5 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: That out for review 6 7 before it gets disseminated though, correct? CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Not to me. I mean, generally that 8 stuff is directly through Steve and the Chief but umm… on that 9 particular time I did see his, you know, his rough draft and 10 that is not what, what you were telling me what the issues 11 were, I’m like that’s not what was on that paper because there 12 was nobody on that paper that had umm… you know, the same, 13 people on the same squad assigned, and you know… 14 CHIEF HERZOG: The only, the only I got, became 15 involved in that was because 16 standing there trying to figure it out and Steve was at a loss 17 because he felt the Captains reviewed it, said it was good but 18 yet it wasn’t good. And this is going on Steve’s notes… 19 20 and Steve umm… were CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Whatever she put out was not what was on that paper, that’s all I’m saying. 21 CHIEF HERZOG: This is going on Steve’s notes… 22 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Right. 23 CHIEF HERZOG: And her notes. Those are the two (2) 24 that had the problem… 25 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Okay. 26 CHIEF HERZOG: And that’s the only reason I got 144 1 involved saying, wait a minute, what’s the problem here. 2 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yeah. 3 CHIEF HERZOG: And then I started looking, I’m like 4 this definitely will not work. 5 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Well again, as we talked, if we, 6 you know, when and if you’re ready to hand that off and we get 7 a supervisor in the chain between Steve and… because generally 8 Steve comes directly to you or directly between you and 9 with vehicle stuff… 10 11 CHIEF HERZOG: Well car assignments, I don’t deal, I don’t… 12 13 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: And that was the first time I’ve ever seen… 14 CHIEF HERZOG: I don’t deal with car assignments. 15 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I’ve been up there for three (3) 16 17 years and that’s the first time I’ve ever even looked at it. CHIEF HERZOG: Very, very rarely will, anything I’ve 18 ever done, say the senior guy gets a new car if he’s been 19 driving good… 20 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Right. 21 CHIEF HERZOG: And a junior guy don’t get a brand new 22 car until we can see he drive good. 23 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Right. 24 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Well that’s because you, 25 26 you got transferred into, from patrol, umm… wait a minute… CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I don’t think… 145 1 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: What was your statement? 2 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Joe never did, we’ve never been 3 involved with cars at all, not even car assignments. That was 4 the first time I’ve even looked at it, you know, a rough draft 5 of when he’s getting ready to do new cars. Generally that’s 6 just, it’s done through the Chief and like I said, I don’t 7 have a problem with, I just, it’s one (1) of those things 8 where, then when something goes wrong, it’s hey, what’s 9 happened with this? I don’t know, I’m not, it goes from Steve 10 straight to you or Steve straight to 11 it was Courtney before that. So I can’t really manage that if 12 I don’t know any of the, you know what I mean, I’m not 13 involved in it so… and, or was, and 14 CHIEF HERZOG: My frustration was because Steve Oaks 15 said I gave this to the captains. And it was, they told me it 16 was good. And that’s the piece of paper that I’m looking at 17 that he’s handing 18 because these are, there’s conflicts. that I can tell it’s not good, 19 CAPTAIN HENLSEY: Well like I said, I showed you the 20 paper. I showed you the paper I looked at and approved and it 21 was not what you were describing as you saw. Randy was not 22 assigned to a sixteen (16) on that paper. He was assigned to 23 an eighteen (18) and there wasn’t people from the same squad 24 assigned to a car. So what happened between Steve and 25 getting it typed into the sheet, I don’t know. I was off that 26 week and I just know the weekend it went out they were jacked 146 1 up and umm… I know Joe came back and got it squared away 2 before, before I came back so… 3 4 5 6 7 MS. CHARLES: Did you have any other questions before we end? CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Umm… no, I guess, you know, yeah, I just, I need to know what it is you expect between me and . Because I’ve told you consistently and I 8 don’t know, has she complained that I’m rude or nasty, or not, 9 refusing to work with her? Because I feel like she’s been 10 accommodating to what I’ve asked for and I, like I said, I’m 11 being polite and professional to her. I don’t ignore her and 12 I’m not, I’m not rude or nasty. I don’t refuse to work with 13 her but I will openly tell you and I’ve admitted to you from 14 the beginning that I will not have more than pers… I will not 15 have personal interactions with her, only professional work- 16 related interactions and I’ll be polite and cordial and 17 salutations and, because that’s what I’m comfortable with. And 18 based on everything that transpired I’m not comfortable with 19 anything more than that. And… 20 CHIEF HERZOG: That’s all I ask. 21 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: But yet I’m still being… 22 CHIEF HERZOG: And no, she did not come to me… 23 CAPTAIN HENSELY: Counseled on it. 24 CHIEF HERZOG: With any complaint… 25 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: But I’m being, I’m being 26 disciplined for it. 147 1 2 CHIEF HERZOG: I think Lieutenant Colonel Rebholz just… 3 4 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: And I was dinged on my evaluation for it. 5 CHIEF HERZOG: Spoke to you about that incident that 6 occurred where you come out to have a conversation yet you 7 stood in a position with the poles blocking your view of her. 8 9 10 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: And I wasn’t, and I have no clue what he’s talking about but I wasn’t having a conversation with her. 11 CHIEF HERZOG: It was a conversation with myself, 12 Courtney Lovell, 13 and we called you out to engage and there was ample 14 positioning that you could have stood where everybody is in 15 view, instead you chose a position that the only persons out 16 of view is 17 , Lieutenant Colonel Rebholz by that, that (INAUDIBLE). CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I stepped out because I had a 18 conversation with you and Courtney and then I stepped back in 19 my office. I wasn’t having a conversation with 20 21 22 23 . If I was then I would have moved into position to be in eye contact with her. CHIEF HERZOG: That in itself shows you’re not recognizing what I’m talking about. Jamie… 24 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I didn’t purpose… 25 CHIEF HERZOG: Nobody would have a conversation, a 26 group conversation what was going on here and block one (1) 148 1 2 person in that room. CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Chief, what I’m telling you is, I 3 didn’t block anybody. I stepped out of my office, I had a 4 conversation with you and Courtney, I remember Colonel Rebholz 5 being there and I stepped back in my office. I wasn’t having a 6 conversation with 7 from anything. 8 . I wasn’t purposely blocking myself CHIEF HERZOG: IF you would have stood outside your 9 office you would have been able to see all of us. You moved 10 down near Lieutenant or Captain Gutman’s office to where it 11 was blocked. 12 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: No, I moved down cause I was 13 speaking to you and Courtney specifically and then I returned 14 to my office. Your perception is, your perception is that I 15 somehow… somehow moved my body around to block myself from 16 17 , that’s your perception. I’m telling you what the reality is. 18 CHIEF HERZOG: That’s absolutely what occurred. 19 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: No, it’s your perception. I stepped 20 out of my office and closed the gap so I could speak to you 21 and Courtney specifically. I don’t even remember… 22 23 CHIEF HERZOG: That was my perception and Lieutenant Colonel Rebholz’s perception… 24 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Standing or where I was standing. 25 CHIEF HERZOG: And that was Courtney Lovell’s 26 perception. I did not inquire . I’ve tried to leave 149 1 her out of all of this so not to make it more uncomfortable 2 for her. 3 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Well it wouldn’t surprise me since 4 there’s been nothing but dissention between us about that 5 since I brought my concerns forward with 6 beginning and now your guys perception always is that I’m 7 somehow trying to you know, cut her out or whatever it is you 8 think I’m supposed to be doing with her that I’m not doing. 9 10 from the LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Jamie, I’ve worked with you the better part of twenty (20) years. 11 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yes sir. 12 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Your behavior up there 13 and your positioning and your body language is not the Jamie 14 Hensley that I knew that we brought up there into the command 15 staff. I can tell you that. 16 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yeah. 17 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: You were visibly 18 uncomfortable and you were… 19 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Right. 20 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: You were behind that 21 22 23 24 25 26 pillar, that was a conversation… CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Well, I don’t know about that but you’re right, and that’s, that’s why, I told you… LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Why are you visibly uncomfortable? The… CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Because of what happened with her 150 1 and how it transpired and then how I’ve been treated since 2 then, that’s why. 3 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Just to come out and 4 have a conversation out there, that she was a party to the 5 conversation? 6 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I’m not talking about that Colonel. 7 I don’t even know what you’re talking about with that 8 conversation and the pillar. I, I don’t know, I came out, I 9 spoke to you and Courtney and I went back in my office. What 10 I’m saying is, you’re talking about overall you felt this 11 uncomfortableness, yeah, there has been that here and there 12 over time, over time, yes. 13 14 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: I’m talking specifically about this incident. That it’s not only the Chief’s… 15 16 17 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I don’t know what you’re talking about. LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Perception, mine, and, 18 and that’s fine. I’m just, I brought that up for conversation 19 so that maybe we can help get this resolved because it’s my 20 observation that this is not the Jamie Hensley that I know for 21 the past twenty (20) years and worked very closely with under… 22 every imaginable circumstance. That is not you, you are 23 clearly uncomfortable coming out there for a conversation that 24 was between all of us, all of us standing there having a 25 conversation… 26 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I don’t remember it that way. 151 1 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: When the Chief called 2 you to come out. That’s exactly what it was. We were all party 3 to that conversation but when you came out, that conversation, 4 she was excluded because your positioning behind that pillar. 5 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I don’t remember having a 6 conversation with her but I do remember coming out to speak to 7 the Chief and Courtney and I don’t even remember what it was 8 about. 9 10 11 12 MS. CHARLES: Well just… CAPTAIN HENSLEY: But I wasn’t out there for very long and I returned to my office. MS. CHARLES: Well we’re, we’re going to agree to 13 disagree on those terms. But just in the future, can you be 14 more aware of trying to include umm… 15 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Yeah, when it’s appropriate, yes. 16 MS. CHARLES: In conversations. 17 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Absolutely. 18 MS. CHARLES: Okay. 19 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: When it’s appropriate and, but just 20 it, to come out and just have chit chat, general conversation 21 and, in a big circle and just chat it up about personal stuff, 22 that’s not going to happen. But yes, I will be inclusive with 23 her when, when we’re having work-related conversations and 24 polite and professional and, not, not, not and will not try to 25 do anything to exclude her or avoid, you know, including her 26 or having contact with her or… 152 1 MS. CHARLES: Okay. 2 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Refusing to work with her. I 3 haven’t done that and I, and I think if you ask her when we do 4 interact, I mean, it’s very cordial. I mean, I, you know, I’m 5 not nasty to her. We speak to, we’re polite and professional 6 and cordial to each other and it’s, again, it’s not, she’s not 7 in the position where I have to interact with her every day 8 for work… 9 10 MS. CHARLES: (INAUDIBLE). CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Other than, you know, saying good 11 morning or you know, if we’re interacting and passing each 12 other in your office but it’s not something where I have to 13 interact with her on a daily basis to get work done. 14 MS. CHARLES: Okay. 15 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: The Chief probably more so you know 16 with him, because she handles a lot of his scheduling and 17 paperwork and all that but that’s, it doesn’t happen for me. 18 She’s not like, she’s not a peer like Joe is or, or like I 19 have to interact with my, you know, my direct supervisor, 20 Colonel Rebholz more often. So yeah, those, those interactions 21 don’t happen all the time. 22 MS. CHARLES: Okay. 23 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: And umm… but when they do, when, 24 for things that we need to get done or we have to work 25 together on… I, I would invite you to ask her if I’m nasty or 26 rude or avoid you know, interacting with her or any way treat 153 1 her bad or… cause I think you would find she… that’s not the 2 case. 3 MS. CHARLES: Okay. 4 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: But yeah, I just want to make sure 5 I know the clear expectations of that Chief, so what, so from 6 what I’m hearing you tell me is I’m, I’m doing what you want 7 me to do when it comes to that. Other than if you’re, I’ll be 8 more cognizant of the body positioning, the thing you’re 9 talking about. I’ll, I’ll definitely be cognizant of that now. 10 But it was, if that happened it wasn’t intentional but I’ll 11 make sure it doesn’t happen. 12 LIEUTENANT COLONEL REBHOLZ: Jamie I think probably 13 the best advice I can give you, be yourself, just be yourself. 14 And this is easy, you were just, you’re just not yourself and 15 that’s my personal take on it. Just be yourself. 16 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I understand that Colonel. 17 CHIEF HERZOG: We’ve worked with Dr. (INAUDIBLE) to 18 try to overcome these and yet I’m not seeing, and some of the 19 umm… information he’s given us I think is very valuable and, 20 and causes for some self-reflection. It’s caused for me to do 21 some self-reflection on some things and to try to work on 22 things. I would suggest you really read what he’s given us and 23 what he’s recently given us umm… to overcome this. I, we need 24 a cohesive environment within the command staff. We need open 25 communication umm… like I said, I’m not asking for personal 26 conversations but on open communications where one (1) person 154 1 isn’t cut out or excluded or avoided, that’s what I’m asking 2 for. 3 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I can do that Chief. And I, I take 4 that stuff seriously and I had been and I will. Umm… can I ask 5 you something though? I don’t know if this is the right place 6 to do it but this is a good a time as any… would you ever 7 consider umm… letting me move to a different area of the 8 department? 9 CHIEF HERZOG: No. 10 CAPTAIN HENLSEY: Like back to Lieutenant? 11 CHIEF HERZOG: As a captain? 12 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: No. 13 CHIEF HERZOG: Oh. 14 CAPTAIN HENSELY: Like go back down to Lieutenant… 15 MS. CHARLES: We’re not… 16 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: And I just… I’m just throwing this 17 out there Chief. I, I promise you and I think you know that I 18 would still give you 110% and support this department and do 19 the best job I could for you but umm… umm… maybe that would be 20 better. 21 MS. CHARLES: Is that something you want to do? 22 Because this is not what, that’s not what we’re saying. And if 23 you feel… 24 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I understand. 25 MS. CHARLES: Like that would be a better move or a 26 better placement for you that’s something we can definitely 155 1 discuss and look into. We’re not going to make any decisions 2 today. 3 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: If that would, I mean if that’s 4 something the Chief would consider and that’s something that 5 would help him umm… have the team that he wants up there and I 6 could, I could serve you know, the department better in a 7 different place then I definitely would consider it. 8 9 MS. CHARLES: Well we want everyone to be happy and it’s not just about the Chief… 10 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Mm-Hm (meaning yes). 11 MS. CHARLES: It’s about your happiness also. So 12 again, this is something we can come back to in a couple of 13 weeks. 14 CHIEF HERZOG: Mm-Hm (meaning yes). 15 MS. CHARLES: A couple days even, you know, you go 16 home, think about it, kind of decide if, you know, that’s what 17 you want, really want to do and we can look further into but 18 that’s… 19 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Well I mean… 20 MS. CHARLES: Not the purpose of this conversation. 21 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: By no means does it mean that I 22 want to leave Chief. I’m just… 23 CHIEF HERZOG: Okay, let me… 24 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Trying to find a way to help you, 25 help you, help everybody to get what they’re comfortable with 26 I guess. 156 1 CHIEF HERZOG: What, what I want out of this is I 2 want the Officer Hensley, the Sergeant Hensley, the Lieutenant 3 Hensley, the Captain Hensley that I know you are. That’s what 4 I want. Whatever it takes to get to that, that’s what I want 5 to do. Jamie, you’ve given a lot to this department and it 6 can’t be taken away. You’ve built a lot of what we’ve had, 7 you’ve built of the, what’s under my command and that, and 8 that’s appreciated and I don’t want to take that away. I want 9 to get you back to that point to where you come to work happy, 10 you’re not miserable. You’re not concerned about something or 11 a conversation or, or something. That’s what I want to get to. 12 So if it’s, if it’s something to that matter that’s something 13 we’d have to discuss. Umm… I’m open to what it takes but I 14 also want it to be something you want and that’s something 15 that’s going to make you happy, enjoyable and the, the person 16 that I know you are. That’s my goal. 17 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: I appreciate that Chief. 18 MS. CHARLES: So if you want to readdress this later, 19 we can definitely come back to it but just know, as the Chief 20 said, we appreciate your service and your work and we just 21 want everyone to be on the same page and to do what’s best for 22 the department. So whatever… 23 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Umm… 24 MS. CHARLES: Works out best for you is what we want. 25 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: And I appreciate that and umm… I 26 apologize for my emotional reaction at the beginning Chief. It 157 1 just totally caught me off guard with the Facebook posting. 2 Umm… I didn’t mean to be disrespectful so I apologize for 3 that. 4 CHIEF HERZOG: I appreciate that. 5 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Okay. 6 MS. CHARLES: Okay, thank you. 7 CHIEF HERZOG: Thank you. 8 CAPTAIN HENSLEY: Thank you. 9 UNKNOWN: Thank you Colonel. 10 THEREUPON, THE RECORDING CONCLUDED. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 158 1 CERTIFICATION 2 3 I, Shannon Schul, do hereby certify that the foregoing one 4 hundred and fifty-eight (158) pages, constitutes a true and 5 complete transcript of the recordings, as recorded by 6 electronic means and transcribed therefrom into type written 7 pages by me to the best of my education, training, and 8 experience this 15th day of March, 2020. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ________________________________ Shannon Schul Transcriptionist 159