Case 1:19-cv-03377-LAP Document 164 Filed 08/14/20 Page 1 of 3

Howard M. Cooper
E-mail: hcooper@toddweld.com

VIA ECF

August 14, 2020

Honorable Loretta A. Preska
United States District Court
Southern District of New York
500 Pearl Street
New York, NY 10007-1312
Re:

Giuffre v. Dershowitz, Case No.: 19-cv-03377-LAP
Offer of Proof Regarding Deposition of Leslie Wexner

Your Honor:
Professor Dershowitz respectfully submits the following Offer of Proof in advance of the
telephonic hearing scheduled for Monday, August 17, 2020 at 2:00 pm concerning his deposition
subpoenas duces tecum to Leslie Wexner and John Zeiger. Professor Dershowitz will await Monday’s
hearing to argue based upon the below facts, but for the Court’s convenience, he has collected here the
relevant facts and supporting materials presently available which support his need to depose Wexner.
OFFER OF PROOF
1. On December 30, 2014, Plaintiff publicly accused Dershowitz of having sex with her when
she was a minor and set off a media firestorm. See, generally, Amended Counterclaim (ECF
No. 127).
2. Plaintiff, through her counsel at Boies Schiller Flexner, LLP (“BSF”), thereafter contacted
Wexner and alleged that she had been sexually trafficked to him by Jeffrey Epstein. See
Affidavit of Stanley Pottinger (ECF No. 36-7) at ¶ 9, 11 (stating that he informed David
Boies in the fall of 2014 that “Mr. Wexner was alleged to have had sex with one or more of
Mr. Epstein’s girls, including Ms. Giuffre,” and BSF thereafter made contact with Wexner);
Affidavit of Stephen Zack (ECF No. 36-16) at ¶ 2 (stating that, at the request of Boies, he
“sent a letter to Leslie Wexner regarding possible claims against him.”); Ex. A, Deposition of
Alan Dershowitz, Vol. 6 at 891-93 (stating that “Sigrid McCawley claims that her client,
Virginia [Giuffre], alleges that she had sex with Leslie Wexner on numerous occasions.”).
3. Plaintiff and her lawyers have denied they engaged in any effort at all to extort Wexner and
have offered their own self-serving versions of their approach of Wexner and subsequent
communications with Wexner and his lawyers. See Affidavit of Stanley Pottinger (ECF No.
36-7) at ¶¶ 11-12; Affidavit of David Boies (ECF No. 36-12) at ¶ 22; Affidavit of Stephen
Zack (ECF No. 36-16) at ¶¶ 2-7.
4. Wexner’s counsel, Marion Little, in a letter to the Court has represented that no extortion
attempt was made of his client. ECF No. 159 at 3.
5. Contrary to Little’s representation on behalf of Wexner, however, in a lawfully recorded
conversation with Professor Dershowitz which took place in the fall of 2015 (a transcript of
Todd & Weld LLP • Attorneys at Law • One Federal Street, Boston, MA 02110 • T: 617.720.2626 • F: 617.227.5777 • www.toddweld.com

 Case 1:19-cv-03377-LAP Document 164 Filed 08/14/20 Page 2 of 3

Hon. Loretta A. Preska
August 14, 2020
Page 2 of 3

which is attached hereto as Exhibit B), Zeiger characterized Plaintiff’s approach of Wexner
as a “shakedown”, and repeatedly agreed with Dershowitz’s theory that Wexner was the
target of an extortion attempt:
Zeiger:

There’s no question that [there’s] allegation[s] -- [of] what I refer to as
rendezvous -- and Sigrid was in one call very graphic. (p. 2)

Zeiger:

I think there was a general reference to the type of lingerie and -- and
things like that, but no specifics. (pp. 2-3).

Zeiger:

[I]t just seems strange to me that -- that one would go this way, unless
your theory is correct. (p. 9).

Zeiger:

[A]re there any other people out there being shaken down? (p. 11).

Zeiger

[I]t’s awfully strange . . . that of all the people around, our client would
have been the one -- the only one to be directly approached.
Well, he has the most money. I mean he’s the pot at the end of the
rainbow, obviously. A lot of advantages in being rich, and maybe some
disadvantages.
Yeah. (p. 11).

Dershowitz:

Zeiger:

Ex. B (Transcript of telephone call between Dershowitz and Zeiger) at pp. 2-3, 9, 11.
6. Wexner’s wife also characterized the episode as a “shakedown” in a direct conversation with
Professor Dershowitz, as Dershowitz will testify.
7. After having her lawyers make their initial approach to Wexner, Plaintiff testified under oath
that she had been sexually trafficked to Wexner.
8. Professor Dershowitz was informed by Plaintiff’s close friend, Rebecca Boylan, that Plaintiff
was seeking a billion dollars from a wealthy man in Columbus, Ohio.
As of now, it is unknown to Professor Dershowitz, beyond the self-serving (and demonstrably
untrue) suggestions of counsel for Plaintiff and Wexner that no extortion attempt was made, whether any
understanding was reached between Plaintiff and Wexner or, alternatively, if BSF concluded that
Plaintiff’s sworn accusations against Wexner were not truthful and the matter was dropped. If the
former, and Wexner maintains that the allegations against him were untrue, then what Plaintiff and BSF
did was extortion. If the latter, then Giuffre testified falsely under oath. Either way, Plaintiff has placed
these matters – and Wexner’s testimony – directly at issue in her Complaint.

Todd & Weld LLP • Attorneys at Law • One Federal Street, Boston, MA 02110 • T: 617.720.2626 • F: 617.227.5777 • www.toddweld.com

 Case 1:19-cv-03377-LAP Document 164 Filed 08/14/20 Page 3 of 3

Hon. Loretta A. Preska
August 14, 2020
Page 3 of 3

Respectfully submitted,
_/s/ Howard M. Cooper_
Howard M. Cooper
cc:

All counsel of record, via ECF

Todd & Weld LLP • Attorneys at Law • One Federal Street, Boston, MA 02110 • T: 617.720.2626 • F: 617.227.5777 • www.toddweld.com

 Case 1:19-cv-03377-LAP Document 164-1 Filed 08/14/20 Page 1 of 8

Exhibit A

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Page 782

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SEVENTEENTH JUDICIAL
CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO.:

CACE 15-000072

BRADLEY J. EDWARDS and PAUL G.
CASSELL,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ,
Defendant.
________________________________/

VIDEOTAPE CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ
VOLUME 6
Pages 782 through 909
Wednesday, January 13, 2016
1:05 p.m. - 3:06 p.m.
Tripp Scott
110 Southeast 6th Street
Fort Lauderdale, Florida

Stenographically Reported By:
Kimberly Fontalvo, RPR, CLR
Realtime Systems Administrator

Electronically signed by Kimberly Fontalvo (301-253-438-8789)

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 Case 1:19-cv-03377-LAP Document 164-1 Filed 08/14/20 Page 3 of 8

Page 783

1

APPEARANCES:

2
On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3
4
5
6

SEARCY, DENNEY, SCAROLA
BARNHART & SHIPLEY, P.A.
2139 Palm Beach Lakes Boulevard
West Palm Beach, Florida 33402-3626
BY: JACK SCAROLA, ESQ.
jsx@searcylaw.com

7
8

On behalf of Defendant:

9

COLE, SCOTT & KISSANE, P.A.
Dadeland Centre II - Suite 1400
9150 South Dadeland Boulevard
Miami, Florida 33156
BY: THOMAS EMERSON SCOTT, JR., ESQ.
thomas.scott@csklegal.com
BY: STEVEN SAFRA, ESQ.
(Via phone)
steven.safra@csklegal.com
--and--

10
11
12
13
14
15
16

WILEY, REIN
17769 K Street NW
Washington, DC 20006
BY: RICHARD A. SIMPSON, ESQ.
RSimpson@wileyrein.com

17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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Page 784

1

APPEARANCES (Continued):

2
3
4
5

On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein:
DARREN K. INDYKE, PLLC
575 Lexington Ave., 4th Fl.
New York, New York
BY: DARREN K. INDYKE, ESQ.

(Via phone)

6
7
8
9
10

On behalf of Virginia Roberts:
BOIES, SCHILLER & FLEXNER, LLP
401 E. Las Olas Blvd., Ste. 1200
Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301
BY: SIGRID STONE MCCAWLEY, ESQ.
smccawley@bsfllp.com

11
12

ALSO PRESENT:

13

Edward J. Pozzuoli, Special Master

14

Sean D. Reyes, Utah Attorney General Office

15

Marcy Martinez, Videographer

16
17
18
19
20
21
22
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24
25

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Page 785

1

I N D E X

2
Examination

Page

3
4

VOLUME 6 (Pages 782 - 909)

5
6
7

Certificate of Oath
Certificate of Reporter
Read and Sign Letter to Witness
Errata Sheet (forwarded upon execution)

906
907
908
909

8
9

PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS

10
11

No.

Page

12

26

Business card of Jeffrey B. Levy,
Esquire

792

27

2002 Article on Child Pornography

810

28

Miami Beach Police Case Report Detail

822

29

Document reflecting entry for
Dershowitz, Alan

877

30

Santa Monica Police Report

885

13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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 Case 1:19-cv-03377-LAP Document 164-1 Filed 08/14/20 Page 6 of 8

Page 891

1
2

not there are missing logs, have you -A.

That's not been something I've focused on.

3

I was only looking at whether or not, within the

4

timeframe, who was with who on what flights, and I

5

saw that Virginia Roberts was on some flights with

6

other prominent academics, but never on a flight

7

with me.

8
9

Q.

Do you know who Virginia Roberts was lent

out to for sex by Jeffrey Epstein?

10

MR. INDYKE:

Objection based upon

11

attorney-client privilege, work product.

12

A.

No, I can tell you outside of the

13

privileged information.

I can tell you outside of

14

the privilege.

15

privilege that she has claimed to have had sex on

16

numerous occasions with Leslie Wexner, and was told

17

by -- by Sigrid McCawley that --

18

MS. McCAWLEY:

I can tell you outside of the

I'm going to object to the

19

line of questioning.

20

MR. SCOTT:

21

A.

22

Time out.

That is from a statement made to me -MS. McCAWLEY:

No, I just want to be clear

23

because if we're going to violate the privilege

24

again, the order of seal.

25

A.

We are not.

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Page 892

1

MS. McCAWLEY:

I'm going to stop that

2

right now because the only conversations I've

3

had with you are in the context of settlement

4

discussion in this case.

5

A.

It was not a conversation with Sigrid

6

McCawley.

7

had a conversation --

8
9
10
11
12
13

And please let me answer the question.

BY MR. EDWARDS:
Q.

Just so we know what the question is, my

question is -A.

The question is do I know whether she had

sex -Q.

No, it's not.

14

MR. SCOTT:

15

SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI:

Let's just ask the question.
Hang on.

And,

16

court reporter, please reread the question so

17

we understand.

18

COURT REPORTER:

"Do you know who Virginia

19

Roberts was lent out to for sex by Jeffrey

20

Epstein?"

21

A.

22

And the answer -MR. SIMPSON:

23

you.

24

A.

25

I

Okay.

Darren had an objection for

I understand the instruction, and I

can answer the question.

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BY MR. EDWARDS:

2

Q.

I just want the names of the individuals.

3

A.

I can't just give you that.

4

you that --

5

Q.

6

I can tell

That's what I'm asking for.
SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI:

7

second.

8

Virginia Roberts was lent out to for sex by

9

Jeffrey Epstein?

10

The question is:

Hang on one

MR. EDWARDS:

Right.

Do you know who

The names of the

11

individuals is all I'm looking for.

12

SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI:

13

objection.

14

A.

Okay.

There's an

Go ahead.

I was told by John Zeiger, who was Leslie

15

Wexner's lawyer, that Sigrid McCawley claims that

16

her client, Virginia Roberts, alleges that she had

17

sex with Leslie Wexner on numerous occasions,

18

including one -- and she said this, according to

19

Mr. Zeiger, very aggressively --

20

MS. McCAWLEY:

This is revealing

21

confidential settlement discussions.

22

A.

23

Between who?
MS. McCAWLEY:

Between -- I'm not going to

24

reveal what confidential settlement discussions

25

because that breaches a privilege.

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Exhibit B

 Case 1:19-cv-03377-LAP Document 164-2 Filed 08/14/20 Page 2 of 8
Page 1

·1
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· · ·Giuffre v. Dershowitz, Case No. 19-CV-3377-LAP
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· · · · · · · · ·Audio Runtime:· 28:57
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TSG Reporting - Worldwide· · 877-702-9580

 Case 1:19-cv-03377-LAP Document 164-2 Filed 08/14/20 Page 3 of 8

·1· · · · (Beginning of audio recording.)

Page 2

Page 3
·1· ·general reference to the type of lingerie and -- and

·2· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· -- talk about your client's

·2· ·things like that, but no specifics.

·3· ·alleged sexual hang-ups and how he liked his women

·3· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Right.· It sounds like, you

·4· ·dressed in ways that certainly suggested that they

·4· ·know, she knows he -- he owns Victoria's Secret, and

·5· ·have, from her, at least, allegations of sexual

·5· ·imagines that as a result of that, he must be into the

·6· ·misconduct, right?

·6· ·kind of lingerie that's sold in the company.· But I

·7· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· There's no question that their

·7· ·mean, she has a good imagination.

·8· ·allegation -- what I refer to as rendezvous -- and

·8· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· She's making -- yes, that's very

·9· ·Sigrid was in one call very graphic.· Not specifically

·9· ·interesting because your -- your indication that Boies

10· ·graphic.· I mean, you could have said the same thing

10· ·-- I guess what you say -- tried to convince her that

11· ·about anybody, any place any time.· But I asked for

11· ·her claims are unsustainable?

12· ·details (indiscernible).

12· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Yeah, that's the word, yeah.

13· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Yeah.

13· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· Yeah.· There seems to be a continual

14· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· But I -- it's clear -- it's clear

14· ·pattern of David saying, you know, I know she believes

15· ·that they're trying to get some kind of response from

15· ·it, but maybe she's confused, maybe she's got the

16· ·us, and our response so far is, yeah, this is

16· ·wrong person, all that kind of stuff.· But you're

17· ·nonsense, and (indiscernible) we're doing the same

17· ·hearing the same thing we're hearing.

18· ·thing you're doing, Alan, but we haven't heard from

18· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Right.

19· ·anybody, yeah.

19· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· How does a lawyer then proceed with

20· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· But you say general and

20· ·a lawsuit in that context?

21· ·specific, but my recollection is Sigrid (phonetic) did

21· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· I don't think he can.· I don't

22· ·say -- or you tell me that Sigrid did say something

22· ·think he can be in the room when she testifies under

23· ·about how he liked his girls dressed in -- I don't

23· ·deposition.· And I'm giving him only another couple of

24· ·know what, negligees or --

24· ·weeks on this thing.· Remember now we've stayed any

25· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· I think -- I think there was a

25· ·request for her to be deposed pending this

·1· ·"investigation".· But if I don't hear soon, we're

Page 4

Page 5
·1· ·with me for having even given him my information about

·2· ·going to go to court and, you know, demand a quick

·2· ·where I was in Florida, when, assuming that that will

·3· ·deposition of her and, you know, obviously question

·3· ·somehow end up in her mind, and -- and she'll be able

·4· ·her about the details of what she alleges against me.

·4· ·to say, oh yeah, it was that day.· It was the day you

·5· · · · We're in a very different situation here.· Every

·5· ·came down to argue Bush v. Gore in the Florida Federal

·6· ·-- every bad thing that could be said about me has

·6· ·District Court that you took a detour and came up to

·7· ·been said publicly.· It's all false.· And so I don't

·7· ·Palm Beach and had sex with me.· She can -- she can

·8· ·care what she says, you know.· Let her go on and on

·8· ·say that, and we talked about Bush v. Gore.· Wow, and

·9· ·and on.· And the more she says, the more she's lying.

·9· ·I was so impressed that you were going to defend the

10· ·And you know, we'll catch her and we'll trap her, and

10· ·Vice President of the United States.· Can you imagine

11· ·you know, the next step will be to go to the

11· ·a whole story being woven around that, especially

12· ·prosecutor and seek a perjury indictment.· And you

12· ·since she already said she saw Gore on the island.

13· ·know, we're -- we're going to do that if it doesn't

13· ·Gore doesn't even know Epstein.· And that she saw

14· ·resolve itself, so.

14· ·Clinton on the island.· Do you have any information

15· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· Well, like I said, (indiscernible)

15· ·about Clinton being on the island at all?· Do you know

16· ·and I do think it's an unfair and unfortunate

16· ·anything about that?

17· ·situation for you and also for my client.

17· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· I don't know anything about either

18· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Yeah.

18· ·of those two gentleman, other than what's been

19· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· But it does sound to me like you're

19· ·(indiscernible) about in the media about Bill Clinton.

20· ·making progress.

20· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Yeah.· Well, I've spoken to Bill

21· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Well, I don't know.· I mean, I

21· ·Clinton's lawyer, and I've spoken to his first in

22· ·don't know.· I mean, what I hear about, you know,

22· ·command, the guy who traveled with him, and they're

23· ·David Boies from all kinds of people who have had

23· ·positive he was never on the island.· Certainly,

24· ·dealings with him over the years is he's very careful.

24· ·they're not aware he was ever on the island.· And

25· ·You know, my wife and some of my lawyers are furious

25· ·Gore, I've spoken to his -- one of his people who has

TSG Reporting - Worldwide· · 877-702-9580

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Page 6

Page 7

·1· ·spoken to his scheduling secretary, who said that

·1· ·documentation, findings old passports, you know,

·2· ·Gore's never met Epstein.· They're not in each other's

·2· ·interviewing people.· I mean, it's been as if I'm in

·3· ·-- I know -- I know Gore's not in Epstein's Rolodex,

·3· ·charge of a major case involving Google v. Facebook.

·4· ·and Epstein's not in Gore's Rolodex.· They never met

·4· ·That's how involved I've had to become in this thing.

·5· ·each other, and certainly Gore's never been on that

·5· ·It's taken over 200 hours of my work.· The legal fees

·6· ·island.· Remember, the time on the island is only --

·6· ·are about $760,000.· I mean, you know, for --

·7· ·less than a year, period.· Because it has to be after

·7· ·obviously for Leslie, that's -- that's small change

·8· ·they left office, January 20th of 2001, and she says

·8· ·for me.· That's my yearly income.· So it's -- it's --

·9· ·before she turned 18, which is August 8th that same

·9· ·it's been pretty -- pretty draining on me.· But I'm

10· ·year.· So it's only about a six or seven-month period

10· ·not going to give up until these lawyers are

11· ·that either of them could have been on the island, and

11· ·disciplined and until, you know, she's investigated

12· ·you know, we're pretty -- pretty definitively certain

12· ·for perjury.· I'm not satisfied.· You know, you can be

13· ·that neither of them ever set foot on that island.

13· ·satisfied, and you should be, with just the name not

14· ·We're absolutely certain about Gore.· And relatively

14· ·coming out.· You're satisfied with withdrawal, with

15· ·certain about Clinton.· Of course, Jeffrey Epstein

15· ·the status quo remaining.· I'm not.· I mean, I need to

16· ·swears up and down that Clinton was never on the

16· ·make sure that the world knows not only that this was

17· ·island.

17· ·irrelevant and impertinent as the judge found but

18· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· Yeah, it's pretty remarkable what

18· ·perjurious and false.

19· ·she's been able to stir up.

19· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· If you can get her to acknowledge

20· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Oh, it's amazing how one person

20· ·that it was a mistake.· That would be pretty big.

21· ·telling lies -- I mean, she's taken six months of my

21· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· I think it's unlikely.· My own

22· ·life away from me because everything has --

22· ·view is that what's going to happen is he's going to

23· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· Yeah.

23· ·go to see her.· She's going to insist that it's true.

24· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· -- been depositions,

24· ·He's going to say it's unsustainable, and therefore, I

25· ·discoveries, going back to 1998 and getting all of my

25· ·have to get out of the case, and he'll get out of the

·1· ·case.

Page 8

Page 9
·1· ·acknowledges that.· He says it was a dumb thing and a

·2· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· At which point, she goes back to

·2· ·wrong thing for my name to be mentioned.

·3· ·Edwards?

·3· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· What I don't understand is if

·4· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Yeah.· And Cassell, who are

·4· ·they're going to mention your name why not

·5· ·complete thugs.

·5· ·(indiscernible) --

·6· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· Yeah, it's -- it's interesting to me

·6· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Yep.

·7· ·that if she acknowledges that she was wrong about you

·7· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· -- sue you for damages, and I

·8· ·after all this, how could he possibly bring a claim

·8· ·understand you would welcome that.· But it just seems

·9· ·against anybody else?

·9· ·strange to me that -- that one would go this way,

10· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Of course.· Oh, of course.· And

10· ·unless your theory is correct.

11· ·that's clear.· I mean, I've been the stalking horse

11· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Yeah.· You know, I'm sure my

12· ·for this thing on both sides.· I mean, the reason they

12· ·theory is correct.· And I was the stalking horse.

13· ·used me, the reason Cassell and Edwards used me --

13· ·was the guy who was going to be held out there, if you

14· ·Boies claims he didn't know I was going to be

14· ·don't want to happen to you what happened to him, you

15· ·mentioned, but there was some stuff in the discovery

15· ·have to -- you have to come forward.· And -- and the

16· ·that suggests possibly to the contrary.· But they

16· ·more innocent I am, the stronger their claim is

17· ·claim they -- they mentioned me because I helped

17· ·because, look, if we can do this to Dershowitz, he's

18· ·negotiate the deal.· But it's obvious that the reason

18· ·fighting back and innocent, imagine what we can do to

19· ·they mentioned me is they want to go to people like

19· ·your client who's a -- you know, head of a public

20· ·your client and say essentially do you want to be

20· ·corporation.· So you know, it makes sense from an

21· ·Dershowitz'ed.· If you don't want to be Dershowitz'ed,

21· ·extortionist's point of view.· Look, I firmly believe

22· ·there are ways around this.· But if you don't

22· ·this all started as an extortion plot.· I have on tape

23· ·cooperate, we'll do to you what we did to Dershowitz.

23· ·-- I told you, I'm still not permitted to disclose it,

24· ·I think it's backfired.· I think that having named me

24· ·but I do have on tape her best friend saying this was

25· ·hurt their credibility, and I think David Boies

25· ·all aimed at the rich man from Columbus.

I

TSG Reporting - Worldwide· · 877-702-9580
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 Case 1:19-cv-03377-LAP Document 164-2 Filed 08/14/20 Page 5 of 8
Page 10

·1·
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· · · MR. ZEIGER:· Could I at least ask that you take
·good care of that tape?
· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Believe me.· Believe me, I have
·taken very good care of it.· And I could probably get
·her to say it again.· I haven't talked to her now for
·a long time.· But I may call her one of these days
·just over the weekend, maybe, and just touch base with
·her and tell her how everything she said is -- turned
·out to be correct.· And you know, she volunteered
·that.· First I knew about your client was from her.
·And that's when I called you because she said that it
·was this guy and they wanted to have him give -·either half his wealth or a billion dollars to the
·charity, which they were going to divide three ways -·the lawyer, the charity, and her.
· · · MR. ZEIGER:· I understand the sensitivity of your
·situation and respect everything you've done vis-a-vis
·us.· If there's a way that I can help you get to a
·point that we can at least listen to that tape -· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Sure.· Okay.· I -- I -- you're
·first on my list, believe me.
· · · MR. ZEIGER:· Thank you.
· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Epstein wants to listen to it,
·too, and my -- my -- my -- you know, my lawyers are
·telling me that I shouldn't expose it beyond privilege

·1·
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·can think of, and that was the only name that the
·woman in Florida mentioned.· No name.· She didn't know
·the name.· But the only person she described.· The
·others were all described in very generic terms -·academics, politicians, businesspeople.· But in -- in
·the case of the Columbus man, it was a man from
·Columbus who owns a Limited and Victoria's Secret.
·She knew that.· But she didn't know the name.· So that
·-· · · MR. ZEIGER:· Where are we on the -- on the -- the
·television broadcast?· You got any sense of that?
· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Well, it's not been -- it hasn't
·been on.· I was promised, again -- can you trust ABC?
·I was promised that they would give me advance notice.
·But also the discovery shows that the Cassell and
·Edwards people were pushing ABC to do it.· And Cassell
·made himself vulnerable to me for defamation because
·in one of the emails, he says not that my client has
·accused Dershowitz of sexually assaulting her, but he
·says in the email categorically Alan Dershowitz
·sexually assaulted my client.· Now, that's an
·independent defamation outside of any litigation
·privilege.· So we're going to be taking advantage of
·that.
· · · MR. ZEIGER:· (Indiscernible) Yeah.· I mean, I

Page 11

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·at this point, but the time will come.
· · · MR. ZEIGER:· Are you familiar (indiscernible)
·talking about (indiscernible) are there any other
·people out there being shaken down?
· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Jeffrey tells me about one other
·person.· I called -· · · MR. ZEIGER:· (Indiscernible).
· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Yeah.· I called that person, and
·he said no.· So I don't know.· I know that the
·Guardian, I think it was, called Ehud Barak, and Barak
·said that he would sue them if they published it.
·They didn't publish his name.· And Barak is very close
·to Jeffrey Epstein.
· · · MR. ZEIGER:· Is that right?
· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Yeah.
· · · MR. ZEIGER:· Well, (indiscernible) it's awfully
·strange (indiscernible) that of all the people around,
·our client would have been the one -- the only one to
·be directly approached.
· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Well, he has the most money. I
·mean, he's the pot at the end of the rainbow,
·obviously.· A lot of advantages in being rich and
·maybe some disadvantages.
· · · MR. ZEIGER:· Yeah.
· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· I think that's the only reason I

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·thought he was a pretty smart guy.
· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· He's actually a very stupid guy.
·Everybody I know who knows him says he has no common
·sense.· He's actually quite dumb.· He's academically ·- you know, he works hard, and he has these academic
·things that have been successful.· But nobody I know
·has described him as smart.· Everybody I know has
·described Edwards as smart -- shrewd, smart,
·calculating, sleazy, but they've described Cassell as
·naive, kind of -- what do you call those people, the
·academics, the professor who forgets.
· · · MR. ZEIGER:· Yeah.
· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Not a real lawyer.· I've heard
·nothing -- nothing positive about his intellect except
·that he was a federal judge, and he was, you know, a
·very strong Republican staffer for Orin Hatch and
·others.· But he is not particularly smart.· He may
·have a certain kind of intelligence, but common sense,
·hum-um.· That's my assessment of him.
· · · MR. ZEIGER:· Do we know why he gave up the
·judgeship?
· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· For money.
· · · MR. ZEIGER:· Okay.
· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· That's clear.· Yeah.· And you
·know, he sees this as a source of great funds.· All

Page 12

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TSG Reporting - Worldwide· · 877-702-9580
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 Case 1:19-cv-03377-LAP Document 164-2 Filed 08/14/20 Page 6 of 8
Page 14

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20·
21·
22·
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·right.
· · · MR. ZEIGER:· I hope that one way or another,
·either your situation resolves itself or
·(indiscernible).
· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Yeah.· Well, one of those I
·think will happen.· It's hard for me to believe that
·after what we've shown Boies, Boies could look me in
·the eye and say I now believe she's telling the truth.
·I can't -- I can't believe that.
· · · MR. ZEIGER:· Well, he said remarkable things in
·my conversations with him about she really believes
·but maybe she's mistaken.· And I -- I've never
·understood why a lawyer as smart as David Boies would
·say that to me.
· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Yeah.· Because that's probably
·in the least-worst scenario.· I'm sure he believes
·she's lying through her teeth, but he can't say that.
·So what he's saying is she may be mistaken, yeah.
· · · MR. ZEIGER:· Why even suggest that?· Just say -· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· You know, he told me also -·without telling me who he was dealing with, he told me
·also that there's another case, another matter, and
·that's what -- I told you about this -- and that was
·that other lawyer in Washington, and that it may turn
·out that she is mistaken.· And I'm glad his name

·1· ·for that yet.· But I think there may come a time.

Page 16
I

·2· ·mean -·3· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· I think -- it seems to me the
·4· ·logical conclusion from all of this is that Boies get
·5· ·out.
·6· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Yeah.
·7· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· Yeah.· I don't know that that's
·8· ·necessarily good for you, but it might be better for
·9· ·us because I can't believe Edwards has got the
10· ·backbone to take us on.
11· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Yeah, I would hope not.· But you
12· ·know, it's moderately me but not as good as another
13· ·result would be.
14· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· Exactly.· Exactly.· All right, I got
15· ·to go.· Thanks for your time.
16· · · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Thanks.· Be well.· Have a good
17· ·weekend.· Take care, bye.
18· · · · MR. ZEIGER:· Bye.
19· · · · (End of audio recording.)
20
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·hasn't been mentioned yet because the lawyers should
·have done your -- you know, Cassell and Edwards should
·have done what I'm doing, checking it out before any
·names are mentioned.· He said that, too, in regards to
·presumably your client.· He didn't mention who it was,
·obviously.
· · · MR. ZEIGER:· Right.· Well, Alan, thank you, and I
·hope -- at the appropriate time you can share that
·tape.
· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Believe me, I'm anxious to do
·it, and I will whenever it's -- and I've shared with
·you the substance of it.· So it's pretty clear what -·what's on it.
· · · MR. ZEIGER:· I have to say that like you, if we
·have a public issue, we are going to be very
·aggressive, and that would help us be very aggressive,
·and we -· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Yes.
· · · MR. ZEIGER:· -- (Indiscernible).
· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· Believe me, if you become very
·aggressive on this, you will have all of my
·corporation, completely.· And I will overrule my
·lawyers at that point.· But I don't think -· · · MR. ZEIGER:· Okay.
· · · MR. DERSHOWITZ:· -- I don't think it's the time

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·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · CERTIFICATE
·2
· · · · · · · ·I, Wendy Sawyer, do hereby certify that I was
·3
· · ·authorized to and transcribed the foregoing recorded
·4
· · ·proceedings and that the transcript is a true record, to
·5
· · ·the best of my ability.
·6
·7
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· · · · · · · · · · DATED this 13th day of August, 2020.
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· · · · · · · · · · · · ·WENDY SAWYER, CDLT
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 Case 1:19-cv-03377-LAP Document 164-2 Filed 08/14/20 Page 7 of 8
Index: ABC..resolves
categorically 12:20

emails 12:18

intellect 13:14

charity 10:14,15

end 11:21

intelligence 13:18

ABC 12:13,16

checking 15:3

Epstein 10:23 11:13

issue 15:15

academic 13:5

clear 13:24 15:12

expose 10:25

academically 13:4

client 10:10 11:18

A

academics 12:5
accused 12:19

Columbus 12:6,7

advance 12:14

common 13:3,18

advantage 12:23

completely 15:22

advantages 11:22

conversations

aggressive 15:16,21
Alan 12:20 15:7
anxious 15:10

14:11

corporation 15:22
correct 10:9

approached 11:19

D

assaulted 12:21
assaulting 12:19
assessment 13:19
B

base 10:7
believes 14:11,16
billion 10:13

great 13:25

H

lawyer 10:15 13:13

half 10:13

divide 10:14

Hatch 13:16

dollars 10:13

heard 13:13

dumb 13:4

hope 14:2 15:8
hum-um 13:19

E
Edwards 12:16 13:8
15:2

I
independent 12:22

Ehud 11:10

Cassell 12:15,16

email 12:20

indiscernible 11:2,
3,7,16,17 12:25 14:4
15:19

notice 12:14
O
Orin 13:16
overrule 15:22
owns 12:7
P
people 11:4,17 12:16
13:10

person 11:6,8 12:3
point 10:19 11:1

14:13,24

lawyers 10:24 15:1,

15:23

politicians 12:5

23

least-worst 14:16

positive 13:14

Limited 12:7

pot 11:21

list 10:21

pretty 13:1 15:12

listen 10:19,23

privilege 10:25

litigation 12:22

12:23

professor 13:11

long 10:6

promised 12:13,14

lot 11:22

hard 13:5 14:6

case 12:6 14:22
13:9 15:2

guy 10:12 13:1,2

discovery 12:15

called 10:11 11:6,8,
care 10:2,4

Guardian 11:10

L

lying 14:17

public 15:15
publish 11:12

happen 14:6

11:23

call 10:6 13:10
10

G

good 10:2,4

disadvantages

calculating 13:9

knew 10:10 12:8

defamation 12:17,

broadcast 12:11

C

funds 13:25

dealing 14:21

23 11:5,8,15,20,25
12:12,19,20 13:2,13,
22,24 14:5,15,20
15:10,18,20,25

K
kind 13:10,18

glad 14:25

Dershowitz 10:3,20,

judgeship 13:21

forgets 13:11

give 10:12 12:14

names 15:4

judge 13:15

Florida 12:2

gave 13:20

naive 13:10

Jeffrey 11:5,13

federal 13:15

days 10:6

directly 11:19

12:5

familiar 11:2

generic 12:4

Boies 14:7,13

businesspeople

F

David 14:13

22

Barak 11:10,12

eye 14:8

12:18,21 15:5

close 11:12

13:11

J

N

M
made 12:17
man 12:6

published 11:11
pushing 12:16
R

matter 14:22
mention 15:5
mentioned 12:2
15:1,4

mistaken 14:12,18,
25

money 11:20 13:22

TSG Reporting - Worldwide· · 877-702-9580

rainbow 11:21
real 13:13
reason 11:25
remarkable 14:10
Republican 13:16
resolves 14:3

 Case 1:19-cv-03377-LAP Document 164-2 Filed 08/14/20 Page 8 of 8
Index: respect..ZEIGER
respect 10:17

telling 10:25 14:8,21

rich 11:22

tells 11:5

19,24

terms 12:4
S

things 13:6 14:10

scenario 14:16

thought 13:1

Secret 12:7

time 10:6 11:1 15:8,

sees 13:25
sense 12:11 13:4,18
sensitivity 10:16
sexually 12:19,21
shaken 11:4
share 15:8
shared 15:11
shown 14:7

25

told 14:20,21,23
touch 10:7
trust 12:13
truth 14:8
turn 14:24
turned 10:8
U

shows 12:15
shrewd 13:8
situation 10:17 14:3
sleazy 13:9

understand 10:16
understood 14:13
V

smart 13:1,7,8,17
14:13

Victoria's 12:7

source 13:25

vis-a-vis 10:17

staffer 13:16

volunteered 10:9

strange 11:17

vulnerable 12:17

strong 13:16
stupid 13:2

W

substance 15:12

wanted 10:12

successful 13:6

Washington 14:24

sue 11:11

ways 10:14

suggest 14:19

wealth 10:13

T

weekend 10:7
woman 12:2

taking 12:23

works 13:5

talked 10:5
talking 11:3
tape 10:2,19 15:9
teeth 14:17
television 12:11

Z
ZEIGER 10:1,16,22
11:2,7,14,16,24
12:10,25 13:12,20,23
14:2,10,19 15:7,14,

TSG Reporting - Worldwide· · 877-702-9580