STRICTLY PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL

REVIEW CONDUCTED BY THE HONOURABLE MS. JUSTICE DENHAM
(CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT 2011-2017)

HELD AT GREEN STREET DUBLIN 7
ON TUESDAY, 8TH SEPTEMBER 2020

Gwen Malone Stenography
Services certify the
following to be a
verbatim transcript of
the audio recording
in the above-named
action.
______________________
GWEN MALONE STENOGRAPHY
SERVICES

 ATTENDANCES

IN ATTENDANCE:

MS. JUSTICE SUSAN DENHAM - THE REVIEWER
MR. SHANE MURPHY SC - LEGAL ADVISER
MR. PATRICK CONBOY - RESEARCHER

MR. JUSTICE SÉAMUS WOULFE
MR. MICHAEL COLLINS SC

COPYRIGHT: Transcripts are the work of Gwen Malone
Stenography Services and they must not be photocopied or
reproduced in any manner or supplied or loaned by an
appellant to a respondent or to any other party without
written permission of Gwen Malone Stenography Services

 1

THE MEETING COMMENCED ON TUESDAY, 8TH SEPTEMBER 2020 AS

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FOLLOWS:

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4

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

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August 2020 from the Chief Justice formally requesting

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me, on behalf of the Supreme Court, to consider certain

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questions arising out of the attendance of

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Mr. Justice Woulfe at an event in the West of Ireland o

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19th August 2020 and to report conclusions and

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I received a letter dated 25th

recommendations to the Chief Justice.

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12

I am asked to consider whether Mr. Justice Woulfe

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should have accepted the invitation to dinner; and, in

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addition, whether he should, in all the circumstances,

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have left the hotel in light of the situation

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prevailing.

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the golf event without attending the dinner.

Further, whether he should have attended

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In the context of these questions I was asked also to

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consider whether there was any relevant codes of

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practice or guidelines and to make any recommendations

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in that regard which I consider appropriate.

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24

In accordance with the terms of reference set out

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above, I wish to emphasise that this review is solely a

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review of the information provided to me and does not

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in any way constitute an adjudication or purported

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findings of fact in relation to the events referred to

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herein.
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Moreover, insofar as this review contains any opinion

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or advice, this is provided strictly to the

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Chief Justice, the Honourable Mr. Justice frank Clarke,

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- as an expression of opinion for the benefit of the

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Supreme Court.

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MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

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Judge.

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MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

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the letter from 25th August.

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now.

Could you slow down, slightly,

I'm just actually -- that is just
I will go a little slower

Sorry.

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Accordingly, for the avoidance of doubt, I will be

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expressing an opinion.

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This is a non-statutory review.

It is not a

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fact-finding exercise.

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Mr. Justice Woulfe says and what is said and presented

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on his behalf and to consider and reflect upon it all.

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I propose to exercise fair procedures, appropriate to

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such a review in accordance with the law, and as

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recently described by the Supreme Court in

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Shatter -v- Guerin.

I propose to listen to what

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When drafted I will send to Mr. Justice Woulfe a copy

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of the draft review.

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his views on the draft.

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report other than to the Chief Justice.

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MR. COLLINS:

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proposing to make a few introductory remarks just

I will consider, if he wishes,
I do not intend to publish the

Thank you very much, Judge.

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Judge, I was

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generally about the matter before you engage in your

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discussion and questioning with Judge Woulfe.

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was going to do is really I have a note of six general

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topics that I was going to try to cover.

What I

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6

First of all, I was going to say something briefly just

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about the nature of the process that we're engaged in,

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as you yourself have already outlined; secondly to

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discuss briefly what applicable standard of conduct is

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it that you have to express a view on questions by

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reference to.

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have done this or not done this?

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that should imply and what are you measuring it

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against?; thirdly, very briefly, the question of the

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standard of review that you might adopt, should it

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become necessary; fourthly I'm going to look at what

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I'll call the Covid issue generally - and we'll discuss

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briefly what exactly is the issue; fifthly, I'm going

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to discuss what I might loosely call the separation of

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powers point, but was there any impropriety or

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appearance of impropriety in the fact of Judge Woulfe

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attending the event which was styled an Oireachtas

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event?; and finally I'm going to look, very briefly

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then at the actual questions that you've been asked and

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just see how I suggest that you might consider

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expressing a view in relation to that.

So, for example, should Judge Woulfe
What standard does

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So, firstly, on the question of the nature of the

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process, you've outlined what it is and it is, of
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course, not an inquiry, it's not an adjudication, you

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are not determining anybody's rights in any direct

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sense, but I suppose in light of Shatter -v- Guerin it

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can't be gainsaid, I suppose, that even expressing a

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view on whether a Supreme Court judge should or should

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not have done something, in the context of whether it

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amounts to some degree of misconduct, however mild or

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serious as the case may be, that has potential

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consequences which are uncertain at the moment, because

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part of the problem with the process I suppose is we

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don't quite know where it's going to go.

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do what you've been asked to do.

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Justice, he then has to decide what he's going to do

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with it and we don't know what he's going to do with

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it.

You can only

It goes to the Chief

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17

If your views are, as I suggest they should be and as I

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think I hope to be able to outline why it should be,

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there may be no difficulties at all in relation to

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this.

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views being expressed vis-à-vis Judge Woulfe clearly

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it's serious, even if they were of the mildest form

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it's still a serious matter for him.

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reputation and good name and more broad issues as well.

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So I think, therefore, it is important that we have

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some anchor in terms of the appropriate standard that

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we adopt.

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but if you were minded to make adverse findings of some

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sort -- I'm sorry, I shouldn't make use the word

But nonetheless, were it to result in adverse

There's issues of

And I'm not going to get into this today,

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 1

"findings" because of course that's not what you're

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doing and I understand that and if I stray into that

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language it's inadvertent.

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views that were adverse to him, certainly all of the

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case law on professional misconduct cases in all OF the

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professions is assessed by reference to the standard of

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beyond a reasonable doubt.

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can make submissions to you perhaps at a later stage in

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relation to that, if that should become an issue, if it

But if you were to express

And if it comes to it we

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should seem that you were minded to make adverse

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expressions of view.

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about that today and I genuinely believe that I don't

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think that is going to arise in all the circumstances.

I'm not going to say any more

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So in terms of the standard of conduct.

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struck me was when you look at the Chief Justice's

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statement that was issued, he makes the point --

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MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

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the 25th?

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MR. COLLINS:

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Supreme Court, I think, issued pointing out that they

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had requested you to do this.

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MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

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MR. COLLINS:

You're talking about his letter of

Well, there's a statement that the

I have seen it.

And they say at the end of it:

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"This non-... "

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One thing that

Having recited the three questions:

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7

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"This non-statutory approach has been necessitated

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because of the fact that relevant sections of the

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Judicial Council Act 2019 have not yet been commenced."

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5

So in a sense you are being asked to fill a gap that

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this would normally be dealt with by the Judicial

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Council if the Act was up and running; it's not so

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you're being asked on sort of an ad hoc basis perhaps

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to step into that gap.

But I think the significance of

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that is that we can look at the Act to see what is the

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type of standard which, for example, a judicial council

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would look at were it being asked to look into this

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matter?

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want to draw attention to.

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the books the Judicial Council Act of 2019?

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MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

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refer me to the sections.

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MR. COLLINS:

I'm sorry, we should probably have put it

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in the book.

I can get you a copy of it.

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only two relevant parts I want to draw attention to.

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Firstly, there's a definition of judicial misconduct in

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Section 2 of the Act and it describes as:

And there's only one small part of it I just
I don't know if you have in

I have it at home so you can just

But there's

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24

"... means conduct (whether an act or omission) by a

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judge, whether in the execution of he is or her office

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or otherwise..."

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So it can extend obviously to things outside actually

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being in court.
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2

"... and whether generally or on a particular occasion

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that..."

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And then there are two requirements an (a) and a (b)

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and there's an "and" between them so they both have to

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be satisfied.

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9
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"(a) constitutes a departure from acknowledged
standards of judicial conduct..."

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12

I put emphasise on the word "acknowledged standards of

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judicial conduct".

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that there are reasonably well known, reasonably well

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understood, reasonably clear, acknowledged standards

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and there has to be a departure from those standards:

There must be some standards out

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"... such standards to have regard to the principles of

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judicial conduct referred to in Sections 7(1)(b) and

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43(2)..."

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22

I will just refer then briefly to those in a moment and

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then the "and":

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"(b) brings the administration of justice into

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disrepute."

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So it's not judicial misconduct even if you do depart

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from a standard, even an acknowledged standard.
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It

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also has to be a form of conduct that brings the

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administration of justice into disrepute.

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are two cumulative mandatory requirements of what

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judicial misconduct means.

And those

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6

And then there are principles of judicial conduct

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referred to in 7(1)(b) and 43(2).

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we only need to refer to 7(1)(b) over the page - just

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two pages on - and this is the last thing I'm going to

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refer to in this Act.

They're the same so

It says:

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"The functions of the Council shall to be promote and

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maintain..."

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And then (b):

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"High standards of conduct among judges, having regard

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to the principles of judicial conduct requiring judges

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to uphold and exemplify ..."

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And then there's a series of criteria:

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"... judicial independence, impartiality, integrity,

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propriety (including the appearance of propriety),

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competence and diligence and to ensure quality of

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treatment to all persons before the courts."

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And I think the only one of those that conceivably has

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any relevance to the present case at all is propriety
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and the appearance of propriety, because I mean one of

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the difficulties I suppose of this process is there

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isn't actually a case against Judge Woulfe brought by

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anybody that he has to answer.

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list saying 'here's what you did wrong' and it's a very

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dangerous thing to take one's guidelines as to what's

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wrong just from media sources and general social media

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chatter and so forth.

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certainly the concern that seems to have been that, if

There is no kind of

But I suppose in a broad sense,

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the event in question breached the Covid Guidelines,

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that in some way Judge Woulfe knew it breached the

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guidelines and was somehow disregarding that fact if

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that be a fact - we say it isn't a fact.

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be one concern.

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above the law or didn't have to comply with regulations

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that that might be impropriety or the appearance of

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impropriety.

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to, if you like, define the case against him - if I can

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call it that - when it's never been defined.

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seems to be, insofar as if one takes one's cue from

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public media comments, that seems to the Covid concern.

That seems to

And that somehow if he thought himself

As I say, it's a bit tricky for me to try

But that

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23

Then there's a second concern expressed by some people,

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I suppose, to the effect that is it appropriate for a

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judge to attend a social event which has some

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connection with the Oireachtas?

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Oireachtas golf event.

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loosely call the separation of powers point.

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though, as we know, there is of course no through
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This one is styled an

And that's what I might very
Even

 1

operation of powers point at all here because nobody

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was exercising any of the functions of any of the three

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arms of Government so we really are down to a question

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of appearance of propriety and whether there was

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anything lacking in the appearance of propriety of a

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Supreme Court judge attending a social golf event such

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as this.

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9

So, they seem to me to be the relevant standards, the

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statutory standards by which the questions you've been

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asked and the question of should Judge Woulfe have

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attended or left the hotel, or whatever, it's should by

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reference, I think, to that standard of judicial

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misconduct as so understood with the two ingredients

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that I've mentioned in relation to it.

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17

The problem of course with things like propriety and

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the varied ways in which people conduct themselves is

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that these are very nebulous concepts and it's

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difficult to get a handle on them.

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nebulous nature of it, and not perhaps because it's of

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huge assistance, I was just going to draw your

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attention to, I think, two things in the books of

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background materials that we've given you.

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should say, Judge, we've given you those background

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materials not I think because they're hugely of

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assistance in answering the three questions you've been

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asked but, rather, you have been asked about guidelines

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for the future and so forth and we thought it helpful
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If only to show the

And I

 1

to perhaps put together a pack of information and it's

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primarily in that context and an attempt to be helpful

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in relation to it.

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MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

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MR. COLLINS:

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outset that Judge Woulfe is of course fully

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cooperating, he wants to be fully cooperate and be

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helpful and sees this as a process in which he can put

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forward the true facts of what actually occurred which

Thank you very much.

And of course I should have said at the

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I think when properly understood dispel any concerns at

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all.

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MR. MURPHY:

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if you were just to give a précis, even from the index,

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of the materials you've just referred to, just for the

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record?

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MR. COLLINS:

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eight extracts from Guides to Judicial Conduct Or Codes

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of Conduct for, say, United States Judges, published by

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various bodies throughout the world such as the

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Canadian Judicial Council, the Australian Institute of

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Judicial Administration, Incorporated Code of Conduct

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published by the State of Illinois Judicial Inquiry

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Board, and so forth.

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articles which are academic articles drawn from law

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reviews, I think almost exclusively, and one academic

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course provided by a body called Judicial Education

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Centre, it seems to be a self-learning course for

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judges about ethical issues.

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MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

I wonder would it be helpful, Mr. Collins,

Yes, certainly.

The first section are

And then secondly there are six

Is that the one in America?
13

 1

MR. COLLINS:

Yes, yes.

There's the Annual Report of

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the Judicial Conduct Investigations Office of the

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United Kingdom.

4

authorities, there's Shatter -v- Guerin and

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O'Laoire -v- The Medical Council that goes to the

6

standard of review in professional misconduct cases.

And there are two judicial

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8

The only one I want to refer to at the moment is at tab

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1 there's the Guide to Judicial Conduct published by

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the Courts and Tribunals Judiciary Office of the United

11

Kingdom in 2020.

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you'll see that part 3 of it contains "Guidance on

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Specific Issues" and then it has "Activities Outside

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the Court" and it deals with a whole range of issues

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outside the Court, "Political Activities, Public Debate

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and Media" and so.

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Activities" on page 17.

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Activities" and as I say it's not very informative, I'm

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afraid, it says on page 17:

The "Contents" is on page 2 and

But then you see "Social
If I bring you to "Social

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"Social activities need to be assessed in light of the

22

judicial officer holder's duty to maintain the dignity

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of the office and not to permit associations with may

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affect adversely the office holder's ability to

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discharge his or her duties."

26
27

It goes on primarily to discuss the problems of social

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networking, blogger and Twitter that don't arise in

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this case.

But it is perhaps of some relevance when
14

 1

you go through all of these documents and all the

2

examples that are given of judges' behaviour out of

3

court, none of them relate to the type of informal

4

social event that Judge Woulfe attended.

5

relate to things like judges contributing to funding;

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attending political meetings, party political meetings;

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expressing views on legal or political issues other

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than just in a purely academic sense and so forth; and

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social networking, blogging and Twitter obviously for

10

They all

judges who engage in that publicly.

11
12

At tab 2 of the book there is the United States Code of

13

Judicial Conduct which is expressed in the form of

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various canons.

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course they, of course, themselves have their own

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codes.

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You'll see Canon 2 on page 27 says:

These are for federal courts and of

Again, the canons are at a very high level.

18
19

"A judge shall avoid impropriety and the appearance of

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impropriety in all activities."

21
22

Echoing the statutory language in our jurisdiction.

23

But unfortunately when you read through it - I'm not

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going to read it now - over the next couple of pages

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you'll see that all of the examples that they give are

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not referable really to the type of situation that

27

Judge Woulfe was involved in and I think that is of

28

some significance.

29
15

 1

Canon 4, on page 37, is perhaps the closest one gets to

2

something of relevance.

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MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

4

MR. COLLINS:

5

Canon 4.

6

It says:

Sorry, page?

Page 37.

And it's a commentary on

And as I say Canon 4 itself, it's on page 34.

7
8

"A judge may engage in extra judicial activities that

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are consistent with the obligations of judicial

10

office."

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12

And the commentary on that, after going through a

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variety of activities that a judge can engage in or

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cannot engage in, on page 37 it says:

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16

"Complete separation of a judge from extrajudicial

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activities is neither possible nor wise; a judge shall

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not become isolated from the society in which the judge

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lives.

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learned in the law, a judge is in a unique position to

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contribute to the law, the legal system, and the

22

administration of justice, including revising

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substantive and procedural law and improving criminal

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and juvenile justice."

As a judicial officer and a person specially

25
26

And they say that judges are encouraged to do this

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through bar associations, conferences, organisations

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dedicated to the law and so forth.

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a judge is not, as it's put in one of the other guides,
16

And the point that

 1

a hermit, not expected to live other than in the real

2

world I think is relevant here.

3

holidays is certainly entitled to go and play golf.

4

And the question then is whether there's anything in

5

the fact of doing so that in some way creates some

6

appearance of an impropriety in the sense that the

7

judge wouldn't be impartial in the discharge of his

8

judicial functions because that's essentially what it

9

comes down to.

A judge when he's on

10
11

The other academic article which is not in the book but

12

we've handed in a separate book to you, is this book

13

that was published a year or two ago, Judicial Power in

14

Ireland and it's a useful source and certainly has a

15

varied variety of articles like people like Mr. Justice

16

Fennelly, what is now Mr. Justice Brian Murray,

17

Chief Justice Clarke, Gerry Whyte,

18

Mr. Justice Barniville, Mr. Justice O'Donnell and as it

19

happens myself, on the Judicial Council issue.

20

Brian Murray (as he was), his article is about removal

21

of judges and I think it's helpful in some respects,

22

albeit that of course he's talking about the type of

23

conduct that would justify a removal of a judge

24

through, say, the constitutional process, which of

25

course we say isn't even remotely engaged here.

26

at issue here is conduct that is so far removed from

27

that that one has to perhaps be cautious of looking at

28

some of the way in which these matters are expressed.

29

I'm not going to spend any time on this, I just want to
17

What's

 1

perhaps draw your attention to some of the pages that I

2

think there are useful bits and in particular, I

3

suppose, if you look at page 70 of the book there's a

4

heading there:

5
6

"Justiciability standard of review and fair

7

procedures."

8
9

And he says in the second paragraph that:

10
11

"It should equally follow that parliament would be held

12

to a judicially ordained definition of misbehaviour."

13
14

Again he's making the point that there has to be

15

clarity and precision in relation to what constitutes

16

misbehaviour - or stated misbehaviour to use the

17

constitutional expression - before a judge could be

18

removed.

19

heading "Misbehaviour" and he talks about what he

20

describes as "the difficult question of what precisely

21

constitutes misbehaviour".

22

posits three broad approaches, the first one is that it

23

could either be a matter for whatever Parliament says

24

is misbehaviour, or it should be an objective standard

25

of misbehaviour capable of review by a court.

26

says it's difficult to see, following the Curtin

27

decision how it could be anything other than an

28

objective standard of misbehaviour capable of review by

29

a court.

And if I bring you on to page 75 under the

And on pages 76 and 77 he

And he

And he says in the middle of the page:
18

 1

"It seems offensive to the most basic of principles

2

that judges could be removed for conduct deemed in a

3

subjective and non-reviewable way to be within the

4

terms of the article."

5
6

Then the second view and the narrowest view is that the

7

judge could only be removed for some form of criminal

8

offence and again he doesn't go with that.

9

thirdly, he deals here with the attempted removal of

And then

10

the removal of a judge of the High Court of Australia,

11

Lionel Murphy, in 1984 and he says it's likely that the

12

Irish courts would adopt the standards that were

13

adopted in that case.

14

some of the formulations again over the page on pages

15

78 and 79.

16

Lionel Murphy was that he had interfered with the

17

course of justice - this is the middle of page 78:

And he discusses that case and

The particular allegation against

18
19

"... by asking the Chief Stipendiary Magistrate of New

20

South Wales to put pressure on a magistrate conducting

21

a committal hearing against an associate of the judge.

22

One of the commissions is a defined misbehaviour for

23

these purposes arising whether the conduct of the judge

24

undermine the standing of the Court or the authority of

25

the judge; another where the conduct is morally wrong;

26

and a third where public confidence in the judge

27

continuing his or her duty under the Constitution is

28

destroyed."

29
19

 1

Then he talks about the All-Party Oireachtas Committee

2

on the Constitution and that they approved a

3

formulation by Professor (inaudible) who is a leading

4

academic in this whole area and you probably know him

5

from your brief work in this area.

6

possible instances at the top of page 79 and he thinks

7

that might be, he says:

He mentions five

8
9
10

"The definition and examples both overstated the proper
test and fail to meaningful elaborate upon it."

11
12

And final he says it's likely that ultimately the Court

13

would adopt some of the standards that are referred to

14

in the cases he quotes, Therion -v- Canadian Minister

15

for Justice.

16
17

"Before making a recommendation that a judge should be

18

removed, the question to be asked is whether the

19

conduct for which he is blamed is so manifestly and

20

totally contrary to the impartiality, integrity and

21

independence of the judiciary that the confidence of

22

individuals appearing before the judge or of the public

23

in its justice system would be undermined rendering the

24

judge incapable of performing his duties of his

25

office."

26
27

We are clearly a million miles away from that.

28
29

And finally, at the bottom of 80 and the top of page 81
20

 1

he says:

2
3

"Given the international consensus, there must be a

4

strong likelihood that the Supreme Court would adopt a

5

test based on unfitness, referenced in turn to a

6

benchmark of gravity and incompatibility with the

7

integrity and independence of the judiciary and the

8

confidence of individuals appearing before the judge or

9

of the public in its justice system."

10
11

That, of course, is all in the context of conduct that

12

might justify the removal of a judge.

13

light-years away from those concepts and one can see

14

that simply by even casually perusing any of the

15

examples, even on possible grounds for removal that

16

have been gone through in other jurisdictions and none

17

of them remotely resemble the type of social

18

interaction that we are concerned with here or the --

19

MR. MURPHY:

20

the sake of the record.

21

referred to in the book in the first paragraph I think

22

the writer, I understand Mr. Justice Murray says that:

As I say, we are

Just on that point very quickly, just for
I think page 81 that you

23
24

"... incompatibility, impartiality, integrity and

25

independence of the judiciary and the confidence of

26

individuals appearing before the judge..."

27
28

But I think he goes on to say also:

29
21

 1

"This will certainly reflect the analysis applied by

2

the Court more recently to the test of objective bias

3

and particularly the theory which deliver that

4

consideration."

5
6

That's part of his analysis also.

7

MR. COLLINS:

8

the fact that it has to be an objective test.

9

somebody who is properly informed of the circumstances,

Absolutely and that ties in exactly with
It's

10

unlike, might I say, much of the public comment that's

11

been made on this which has been very ill-informed as

12

to the circumstances, but somebody who is properly

13

informed of the circumstances who then objectively

14

considers the question as to whether the conduct in

15

question has any appearance of impropriety.

16

think that objective test is applicable whether we're

17

talking about very minor matters which at worst are

18

something that might say, 'look, you need to be a bit

19

more careful about this in the future,' to conduct that

20

justifies a removal.

21

it has to be looked at objectively.

And I

But on that spectrum, either way

22
23

The other, perhaps slightly useful article, out of the

24

academic articles the only one I think I want to refer

25

to is a useful overview, I'm not going to refer to it

26

by Dr. Laura Cahillane in the Dublin University Law

27

Journal, but the one I want to refer to is one from the

28

Melbourne University Law Review by Appleby and Le Mire,

29

who have written extensively again in this area, an
22

 1

article called:

2
3

"Judicial Conduct:

Crafting a system that enhances

4

institutional integrity."

5
6

And that's at tab 11 in book 2 of those two books of

7

background materials that we've handed in.

8

through, at great length, the whole variety of

9

categories of judicial conduct that can attract

And they go

10

criticism ranging from the mildest to the most severe.

11

Professional misconduct, for example, they look at on

12

page, it's the internal page 19 or if you're looking at

13

the page numbers at the bottom right-hand corner of the

14

boom it's 411.

15

professional misconduct on the Bench.

16

example of:

And they're really talking about there
They give an

17
18

"Federal Magistrate Jennifer Rimmer, who was discovered

19

to have lifted 2,000 words from a Victorian judgment.

20

It was later found that similar conduct had occurred in

21

a number of her other judgments."

22
23

She subsequently claimed her conduct was caused by

24

illness and so forth.

25
26

They go through abuse of judicial power, criminal

27

conduct and so forth.

28

perhaps of anything remotely relevant to the present

29

circumstances is if you look at page 416, that's
23

Again, the nearest we come to

 1

internal page 94.

And they say:

2
3

"Whether reprehensible behaviour would be the bias for

4

any form of discipline is a question not easily

5

answered.

6

consequences attach to this type of behaviour, a

7

chilling effect would be created within the judiciary.

8

Judges may become reluctant to engage fully as members

9

of the community - an effect that has its own dangers.

10

On the other hand, some behaviour may be considered so

11

serious that it casts doubt on the judge's ability to

12

fulfil the public role of a judge or impacts on the

13

reputation of the Court as an institution."

There is a danger that if disciplinary

14
15

And then they give various examples of a judge who had

16

frequented massage parlours employing sex workers; a

17

judge in the Wayne County Circuit Court of Michigan who

18

texted a shirtless photo of himself to a female bailiff

19

and the photo found its way into the press.

20

Judge McCree boasted to the reporter saying "no shame

21

in my game".

22

Supreme Court for conducting himself in a flippant

23

manner and for not giving the interview the seriousness

24

it should have.

He was reprimanded by the Michigan

25
26

And they go on to discuss how judges shouldn't make

27

political statements or get embroiled in an act of

28

political controversy by expressing views on it, for

29

the very reason that those controversial matters may
24

 1

come before the Court and the judge shouldn't seen to

2

have expressed some prejudgment, or something like

3

that, on some issue that may come before him:

4
5

And they say on page 27:

6
7

"Extrajudicial political commentary will be more

8

controversial when it occurs during the course of a

9

trial before the judge."

10
11

And they give an example of that.

12

theme of all of these examples in all of these

13

authorities - and that's all I want to refer to in that

14

- is that the conduct to warrant any type of criticism

15

at all, even of the mildest sort, is generally linked

16

to some case that the judge is hearing, or is about to

17

hear, or is likely to hear, because there's a danger of

18

some perception being created that the persons in

19

question are not going to get a fair hearing and it's

20

always all about that.

21

that undermines the reasonable perception of the

22

objective observer that actually there isn't going to

23

be a fair hearing or a fair trial on something.

24

circumstances where there's no connection with any

25

hearing then the gravity of that or the seriousness of

26

that clearly falls away.

27

connection between a potential trial and whatever the

28

judge was doing in his personal life or social life,

29

then the weaker the ground for any form of criticism
25

I suppose the common

It's always all about something

In

And then the further the

 1

becomes.

This is perhaps one of the most remarkable

2

cases because the judge, although appointed a judge of

3

a Supreme Court had never of course sat as a judge of

4

the Supreme Court, had no cases assigned to him, hadn't

5

even been given a salary and drawn a cheque in relation

6

to his functions.

7

more removed from any potential impact on some hearing

8

or not discharging judicial functions correctly and

9

impartially.

So it's hard to conceive of a case

10
11

So they're the broad themes, I suppose, that I just

12

wanted to outline by way of background and standards.

13
14

I want to now turn more specifically to what I'll call

15

the Covid issue.

16

function is simply to, in a sense, receive the

17

materials and the statements and express a view on the

18

basis of those, without making formal findings of fact

19

and so forth.

20

form a view as to what occurred, and in particular, as

21

to what Judge Woulfe knew in relation to these matters

22

and the steps he took and what he did and didn't do.

23

And I see the Covid issue, I think, therefore,

24

primarily in terms of while in one sense saying was the

25

event in fact conducted in accordance with the Covid

26

Guidelines?

27

see relatively plainly that it was.

28

importantly, perhaps, the real question is:

29

Judge Woulfe have any legitimate reason to think that

And I do understand that your

But nonetheless to do that you have to

And I say that it was and I think we can

26

But more
Did

 1

it wasn't conducted in accordance with the Guidelines

2

and the Regulations?

3

can be attached to him for attending the event from the

4

viewpoint of Covid compliance.

5

so in the context where, as I say, I'm reluctant to

6

take the "case against him" just from a miscellaneous

7

collection of media sources where the criticisms are

8

expressed differently, sometimes wildly and in a most

9

egregious manner possible, sometimes in a more

Because if he didn't no criticism

And it's particularly

10

restrained and considered way, but in broad terms the

11

concern seems to be that if a judge who knew or ought

12

to have known and had reason to think that an event was

13

not complying with Covid Guidelines, well then he

14

shouldn't have participated in the event.

15

essential criticism, if I can put it that way.

16

you've seen his own statement and you will question him

17

in relation to that.

18

that Judge Woulfe (a) did not know that the event was

19

not in compliance with the Covid Regulations - not

20

least because it appears that it was in compliance -

21

but in any event everything appeared to him to be

22

appropriate and in compliance and he received the

23

appropriate assurances.

24

the factual circumstances, and this is to a very large

25

extent a fact matter, there's simply nothing on the

26

facts at any point in the day at which anything

27

occurred, to his knowledge, that would have enabled him

28

or led him to change his mind in relation to that, or

29

to think there's something wrong here, this is
27

That's the
I think

And I think it's crystal clear

And secondly, when we look at

 1

different to what I thought.

And we see that when you

2

hear him, you've read his statement and I'll touch on

3

one or two of those points.

4

through the chronology because you have the statement

5

and you will be talking to him.

6

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

7

MR. COLLINS:

8

general points I wanted to make.

I'm not going to go

I will go through that with him.

Exactly.

But there are just a couple of

9
10

First of all, the nature of the Oireachtas Golf Society

11

does have the title Oireachtas but as you'll see from

12

some of the statements it's not funded by the

13

Oireachtas in any way.

14

actually it originates from I think post the Arms Trial

15

and a social event set up to try to get across,

16

deliberately stand away from party politics and have

17

something that is entirely non-political, largely made

18

up of friends and families and so on of the Oireachtas.

19

And as you can see, and you'll hear Judge Woulfe

20

explain it to you, in terms of the number of active

21

politicians who were there, a very small number.

22

was largely either retired politicians or friends and

23

family.

24

it's sort of the Oireachtas equivalent of the

25

old-fashioned factory works outing for the day for the

26

family and friends and so forth.

27

explain to you how he was invited when he was Attorney

28

General.

29

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

My understanding is that

It

I hope I don't do it any injustice if I say

And Judge Woulfe will

He'll go through that.
28

 1

MR. COLLINS:

He'll go through that.

That's fine.

2
3

What I would like to do is look to first of all briefly

4

at the statutory instruments.

5

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

6

MR. COLLINS:

7

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

8

want to run into at that lot of time in the afternoon.

9

So if you could keep it tight, otherwise we're going to

You said 15 minutes.

Yes.
And I am time conscious.

I don't

10

run into some considerations.

11

MR. MURPHY:

12

assistance to Judge Denham and to Judge Woulfe also,

13

there will be no objection to it, a written submission

14

after this meeting, if that would assist.

15

MR. COLLINS:

16

written submission, I forgot to bring it with me, I

17

have a very short two or three page aide-memoire simply

18

on the statutory instruments, just reciting them, the

19

dates they came into force, and so forth.

20

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

21

MR. COLLINS:

22

think I have left that behind.

23

it to you.

24

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

25

MR. COLLINS:

26

legislation and guidelines and I'm only going to take a

27

minute or two on this.

28

you look at, the first one is the Health Act of 1947.

29

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

I would suggest, if it would be of

Absolutely.

I actually have, not a

That would be very helpful.

I was certain I had that with me but I
We'll get it and give

You can send that into us.

There's a little bit book called

What I want to look at -- if

Maybe this is best in your
29

 1

aide-memoire.

2

MR. COLLINS:

3

aide-memoire it's just the definition of event and it's

4

on page --

5

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

6

pagination, page 60 of the legislation.

7

MR. COLLINS:

8

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

9

the page, 77 on the far right of the page.

Actually this point is not in the

77, Mr. Collins, of our internal

Thanks.

10

MR. COLLINS:

77.

11

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

12

MR. COLLINS:

13

says:

Yes.

60 in the middle on the bottom of

Yes, thank you.
I have it.

Thanks a million.

At bottom of the page you'll see it

14
15

"'Event' means a gathering of persons whether for

16

cultural entertainment, recreation, sporting..."

17

so on.

and

18
19

That's all I want to draw attention to in that.

The

20

word "a gathering of persons" is what an event is.

21
22

And then what you see is that there were Covid

23

Regulations brought in from time to time for defined

24

periods.

25

the book covers the period from 8th to 12th April 2020.

26

The next one, 206/2020 on page 100, you'll see it

27

covers 8th June to 29th June and then the important one

28

is the one at tab 4 SI 234/2020 and you'll see that it

29

says:

The first one on tab 2 you see on page 82 of

30

 1

"These regulations [regulation 1 and 2] come into

2

operation on 29th June 2020."

3
4

And although it says they were to remain in operation

5

until 20th July 2020 they were extended by the two

6

subsequent SIs that you see in the book up to 31st

7

August.

8
9

So at the time of the event the relevant regulations

10

were these regulations here and you'll see that the

11

restriction on events - and you'll see now why I refer

12

to the definition of events as being gatherings and

13

that's relevant when we come to look at the guidelines

14

in just a second - the restrictions on events is for

15

indoor events that it doesn't exceed 50 persons.

16

that's all I want to look at in the book.

17

50-person rule, if I can call it that, therefore, was

18

the rule that was applicable at the time in question.

And

So the

19
20

Now, the system - and Judge Woulfe can elaborate on

21

this from his own knowledge in relation to it - but it

22

appears that when the Government decide that they'll

23

adopt a particular regulation or indeed a decision as

24

we now know happened on 18th August as to what they do,

25

they agree guidelines with the relevant sector,

26

whatever it happens to be.

27

Irish Hotels Federation.

28

which usually come into effect therefore a little bit

29

later than either a Cabinet decision, or something of
31

In the hotel area it's the

And the issued guidelines

 1

that sort, which are updated on a rolling basis.

We

2

didn't have -- in that book of legislation and

3

guidelines the guidelines at the back of the book are

4

the later guidelines post 31st August when they

5

implemented the decision about reducing the numbers to

6

six.

7

shows you the difficulty sometimes of people trying to

8

understand what's happening because it is difficult to

9

get them - we have now the guidelines that were

But we've only now managed to get - and it just

10

operative at the time and they're the ones I've handed

11

to you there, Judge, the coloured one.

12

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

13

MR. COLLINS:

14

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

15

MR. COLLINS:

16

can always tell from the revision history, which is on

17

page 2 of this booklet, as to which version you were

18

dealing with.

19

6th July 2020 and it had updates to Appendix 1.

20

there's just three different pages of this I want to

21

draw attention to because this has to be read in

22

conjunction with the statutory instrument that I drew

23

attention to about the 50 people at an event.

24

First of all, not quite in the order of the document,

25

because I don't think this document has been written by

26

lawyers so it's written as a practical guideline.

27

I bring you on to page 25 of that book, section 18?

28

The page numbers are in the bottom left of the booklet,

29

and in the middle of the page it's "Meetings and

Let me just find them now.

It's this one here.
Yes.

As Mr. Murphy pointed out earlier, you

This is version 2.2 and it came in on

32

And

Can

 1

Events", section 18.

And if you see on the left-hand

2

column, two-thirds of the way down the page there's a

3

heading "Physical Distancing Protocol".

4
5

The first bullet point is:

6
7

"There is a limit on the number of people gathering in

8

a venue at one time."

9
10

And that's important because that ties in with the

11

wording of the definition of "event" as being a

12

gathering of people.

13

talking about the gatherings.

So these guidelines are very much

14
15

"In line with NPHET Guidelines on indoor gatherings."

16
17

And we know that the gatherings are limited to 50

18

people.

19
20

"Multiple guidelines are allowed in venue facilities

21

provided they are in separate defined spaces and there

22

are systems to prevent intermingling in common spaces

23

e.g. entrances, exit and toilet facilities."

24
25

So it's not a question that you can only have 50 people

26

in the hotel attending events or gatherings.

27

have more than -- you can have multiple events, you can

28

have two events or gatherings of 50 people, provided

29

that they are in separate defined spaces.
33

You can

And I mean

 1

whether they are, let us say, from two separate golf

2

societies or one golf society is neither here nor

3

there.

4

people are.

5

and health guidelines.

6

and you will have seen from the evidence that they are

7

two separate rooms - so even named, the Kylemore Suite

8

the Omey Suite, different arrowed directions and in the

9

photographs you can see pointing in opposite directions

The Covid virus isn't concerned to know who the
It's all a question of physical distancing
So having two separate rooms -

10

where they were, divided by a clear wall, as you'll

11

hear when you discuss it with Judge Woulfe.

12

insofar as these are concerned, the multiple gatherings

13

were in fact allowed and it wasn't a breach.

14

to reiterate that, can I bring you to section 5 - going

15

back now in the document at page 10 - which is a

16

section called "physical distancing".

17

bottom left-hand side corner you'll see a heading:

But

And just

And this, on the

18
19

"Hotel restaurants and bars."

20
21

And that's talking about what they call "controlled

22

environments" which is basically things like hotels and

23

internal environments where somebody has control over

24

people coming and going.

It says:

25
26

"Physical distancing of two metres should be maintained

27

between tables.

28

can be reduced to one metre in controlled environments

29

if the other risk mitigation requirements outlined in

However, if this is not possible this

34

 1

Appendix 1 have been met."

2
3

And that's to do with having the hand sanitisers and

4

all the various things we know about.

5

say:

And then they

6
7

"If all risk mitigation requirements have been met and

8

physical distancing is reduced to one metre, pre-booked

9

time slots must be in place for customers with a

10

maximum of 105 minutes."

11
12

That 105 minutes only applies if you put your table one

13

metre --

14

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

15

that detail now at the moment.

16

MR. COLLINS:

17

point I'm getting at is, if the tables were two metres

18

approximately apart, (a) there was no time limit and

19

secondly it was perfectly in accordance with the

20

Regulations.

I think we don't need to go into

Okay, fine.

I suppose the fundamental

21
22

You can see that finally, Judge, and I won't weary with

23

you with the detail of it, there was that reference to

24

Appendix 1 and you'll see that spelled out in

25

Appendix 1 on page 30, in particular on the right-hand

26

column in some of those bullet points.

27
28

So that's all I want to say in relation to the

29

Regulations, other than to point out that the
35

 1

Regulations are of course directed to the organisers.

2

This is designed for their assistance.

3

people who turn up in hotels ask for a copy of the

4

Regulations, decide they'll conduct an audit of the

5

hotel and see are they complying with it.

6

who go to Ikea to buy their furniture ask the Ikea

7

people, 'Could I please see what you've done?'

8

are directed to the organisers.

9

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

It's not that

Or people

These

In the Guidelines, you said

10

Regulations.

11

MR. COLLINS:

12

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

13

MR. COLLINS:

14

that were in force at the time.

15

you'll hear, Judge Woulfe made inquiries once he knew

16

there was a dinner and was given the reassurances --

17

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

18

MR. COLLINS:

I meant guidelines.

I'm sorry.

It's an important point.

Absolutely.

And they are the Guidelines
And in essence, as

We're going to do all that.

You're going to do that with him, fine.

19
20

So, if having heard from Judge Woulfe, Judge, you are

21

satisfied that in fact it appeared to him as if the

22

relevant regulations and guidelines were being complied

23

with, if he was appropriately reassured that that was

24

so, and if there was nothing that should have made him

25

jump up and say, 'Gosh, this isn't right, actually

26

they're not complying with these guidelines,' if there

27

was nothing that would have prompted him to think that,

28

then there is simply no criticism warranted of him in

29

relation to somehow wilfully or wantonly or
36

 1

disregarding in any way the necessity to comply with

2

the Covid Guidelines.

3

we were talking about a moment ago, applying that test

4

under the Act, would never conclude that Judge Woulfe

5

--

6

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

7

Straightforward.

8

MR. COLLINS:

9

that he had engaged in either impropriety or the

10

So that objective observer that

That's the test, yes.

That's the test.

Would never conclude

appearance of impropriety.

11
12

The other aspect of the thing is the so-called --

13

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

14

now.

15

MR. COLLINS:

16

if that's all right.

17

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

18

MR. COLLINS:

19

suppose the question here is was there any impropriety

20

in terms of attending an event which was styled an

21

Oireachtas Golf Society event and at which there were

22

at least some politicians, albeit a minority.

23

there's no rule that judges can't engage with

24

politicians or meet or socialise with politicians.

25

It's a sort of a spectrum.

26

in which it is clearly right and proper to do so and

27

let me give you an example of which we are familiar.

28

The Chairman of the Bar Council does an annual dinner

29

every year, which he or she invites the Judiciary,

We are running into time problems

I know and I'm finishing on this point,

Okay.

Is the separation of powers issue.

37

I

And

At one end there are events

 1

senior government ministers, non-governmental

2

organisations and so forth, who sit and have dinner for

3

the purpose of exploring the issues of mutual concern

4

and just socialising so that they each see the other

5

doesn't have horns perhaps.

6

and ministers are invited for dinner in the King's

7

Inns.

8

entirely proper and that's at one end of the spectrum.

9

At the other end of the spectrum you might take an

Frequently, politicians

There's no question but that that is all

10

example of a judge who perhaps every Friday night goes

11

up to the bar in Dáil Éireann and socialises regularly

12

with the politicians and you would say well, that has

13

the appearances of impropriety about it for obvious

14

reasons.

15

which fall on the spectrum between what is clearly

16

acceptable and what clearly wouldn't be acceptable and

17

in my submission, Judge, any objective observer, any

18

fair view of the matter would say that this attendance

19

at this event falls well within the totally acceptable

20

range of conduct and socialisation that a judge can

21

engage in.

22

the nature of the organisation.

23

you find in the authorities and the academic

24

authorities such as engaging in fundraising, party

25

political activity support - none of those matters

26

apply in relation to this.

27

academic articles discuss the regularity of the

28

conduct.

29

example of every Friday night the judge going.

And there can be many forms of conduct than

That is particularly so having regard to
None of the indicia

Some of the cases or the

They're doing it day in day out.

38

I gave the
This

 1

was an annual event, the first time he attended it.

2

it's a once-off in his capacity as a judge.

So

3
4

And finally and the last point, Judge, there is, I

5

think, a key issue here about the importance of

6

judicial independence.

7

respectfully say so, that there have been calls that

8

Judge Woulfe should have resigned because of his

9

attendance of this and a frenzied storm, and something

It seems ludicrous, if I may

10

of a firestorm, I suppose, was whipped up in social

11

media and elsewhere as if this was obvious and this was

12

terrible and this had to happen.

13

hounded out of office by ill-informed comments which

14

create a firestorm.

15

firestorm, they have to stand up to it and say,

16

'judicial independence requires that we're not going to

17

be hounded out of office for no good reason,' because

18

if that is case then where do we stop?

19

judgment that is deeply unpopular and there is a

20

firestorm saying he or she should resign.

21

to one judge in Canada, for example, who gave a

22

judgment I think holding that a law prohibiting

23

possession of child pornography was unconstitutional

24

and there were demands all over the place that that

25

judge should resign.

And judges cannot be

They have to, however fiery that

A judge gives a

As happened

26
27

So it's actually quite a potentially very dangerous

28

thing.

29

to ask, Judge, perhaps awkwardly worded.

So I say that the three questions that you have

39

I mean the

 1

first one is whether he should have attended the

2

invitation to dinner.

3

attended the event as a whole, and should he have

4

accepted the invitation to start with to turn up?

5

Because the third question draws a distinction between

6

the golf event and the dinner as if it's kind of okay

7

to go to the golf event, but did you have any concern

8

about the dinner?

9

And then the third one or the middle one, one and three

I think you can read that as

It seems to draw that distinction.

10

I think are related, the middle one is should he have

11

left the hotel in light of the conditions prevailing?

12

Which I presume is a reference to the Covid situation

13

and for the reasons he'll outline to you there was

14

nothing that would have impaired him to leave.

15
16

I've gone on far too long, Judge, I'm sorry.

17

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

18

going to ask you a number of basic introductory

19

questions just for the record and then I'm going to go

20

through your statement.

21

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

22

apologise to for interrupting you when you were making

23

your opening?

24

the letter to the procedure I just wanted to get a

25

careful -- it's a bit early for me to become a grumpy

26

judge.

27

way.

28

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

29

way.

Thank you very much.

That's fine.

Judge, I'm

Before you do, can I

It's just because you had moved on from

So I apologise, I didn't mean to be rude in any

Don't worry, I didn't take it that

I was speaking too quickly.
40

 1

Judge, when were you called to the Bar?

2

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

1987 with Mr. Murphy.

3

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And when did you take Silk?

4

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

March 2005.

5

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And when were you appointed

6

Attorney?

7

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

14th June 2017.

8

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And that, of course, the type of

9

work involved there is advising the Government,

10

advising the Department and having a lot of contact

11

with politicians?

12

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Absolutely.

13

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

When did you conclude your

14

Attorney post?

15

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

16

formed which was I think the last Saturday --

17

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

I think it's 22/06.

18

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

The last Saturday in June and I

19

only discovered on the morning that I wasn't remaining

20

on as Attorney General - a phone call from the outgoing

21

Taoiseach on the Saturday morning.

22

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

23

the Appointments Board?

24

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

25

election, as a precaution, not knowing whether I was

26

going back to the Bar, staying on as Attorney General,

27

or possibly becoming a judge, I applied to JAB.

28

mentioned it to the Taoiseach at the time and I said

29

that I was putting in an application but it didn't mean

And judges sometimes.

The day the new Government was

Right.

I had.

41

So you hadn't applied to

After the general

I

 1

I wasn't happy to very happy to stay on as Attorney

2

General and my preference would be to stay on as

3

Attorney General and help the new Government.

4

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

5

make your Declaration before the Supreme Court?

6

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

7

just get my diary, excuse me one second.

8

absolutely accurate and precise.

9

vacation coming thank God, hectic couple of months.

Excellent.

And what date did you

I think my appointment, I will
Just to be

So end of July,

10

Thursday is the 23rd so I was appointed in the Áras on

11

the 23rd, that's the date of my appointment, and I made

12

my Declaration on Friday, the 24th.

13

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

14

Bench as a judge?

15

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

16

applications for leave determinations.

17

envisaged there would be some of that work in

18

September.

So have you actually sat on the

No, or taken part in any so-called
It was

19
20

The Supreme Court, unlike the High Court and the Court

21

of Appeal, said that it didn't need to sit in September

22

to make up for any backlog because there was no

23

backlog.

24

August, of possible assignments starting first or

25

second week of October.

26

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

27

look at your statement and let us work our way through

28

it, rather than just have you read it.

29

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I got a list at some point, probably in

Yes.

Excellent.

Yes, of course.
42

Well now let us

I may be able to

 1

add or clarify things.

2

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

3

from the beginning.

4

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

5

I came about to play in the Oireachtas Golf Society.

6

don't know, Judge, are you a golfer, do you play golf?

7

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Unfortunately not.

8

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Do you understand -- have you been

9

involved in a golf society or a golf classic event?

In fact if you'd like to start

Yes.

So I'm explaining really how
I

10

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

No, I haven't but I have attended

11

sports events.

12

actually.

13

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Okay.

14

is a golfer or not?

No, okay.

15

before even this golf society what I would have known

16

about -- I play golf occasionally in my club.

17

been a member of a golf club since 1992 and I've never

18

played very much.

19

come down from 26 or 27, which is the starting

20

handicap, because I don't have much time to play golf.

21

But I would have been aware - as well as my own club

22

where I play occasionally - that the local pubs would

23

have a golf society.

24

they'll give out to me for promoting one or two of

25

them.

26

years I would have a social drink, I would be aware

27

that they have, you know, a notice up sometimes about,

28

and I won't give a name, you know the Joe Bloggs golf

29

society.

So I think they're rather similar

I don't know whether Murphy
So can I just to you,

I've

My handicap has never managed to

I don't want to name them because

But one or two of the two pubs where over the

And it's not really a society that's terribly
43

 1

closely linked with the pub, it's that a few people who

2

socialise there begin a kind of a gathering and they

3

invite some friends or family to go out and play golf

4

once or twice a year.

5

one of those pub golf societies but I would have been

6

aware that that's roughly what a society is.

So I've never actually played in

7
8

So that brings me on to the Oireachtas Golf Society

9

then.

10

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

11

office that you were invited to play in the Oireachtas

12

golf outings?

13

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

14

Leas-Chathaoirleach, Paul Coghlan, who I would have met

15

when we were dealing with the Bar Council who were

16

trying to deal with politicians about the Legal Service

17

Regulation Bill.

18

when we sent a delegation up to Leinster House to

19

discuss the Bill.

20

I met him again.

21

daughter is a barrister, Mairéad Coghlan, that may have

22

been partly why we connected.

Yes.

It was during your term of

By former

I think I met Paul for the first time

And then when I was Attorney General
And perhaps the fact that his

23
24

So, the first time I heard anything about the

25

Oireachtas Golf Society -- sorry, the Oireachtas Golf

26

Society achieved a bit of notoriety years ago, around

27

2010/2011 when former Taoiseach, Brian Cowen, used to

28

holiday in Ballyconneely, and so on.

29

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

I remember.
44

 1

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And there was an issue about the

2

media hounding him and taking a photograph --

3

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

I remember.

4

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

-- of him in his caravan and all

5

that kind of stuff.

6

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Absolutely.

7

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So I would have been vaguely aware

8

from that that there was such a thing called the

9

Oireachtas Golf Society.

10

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

But the first time you were

11

invited was in 2018 by the former Leas-Chathaoirleach?

12

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

13

invited on that occasion, you know, I knew very little

14

about it but I wasn't able to go, whatever date, I had

15

some other commitment, I couldn't go.

16

that.

17

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

18

were invited.

19

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

20

again the two people who would have mentioned to me

21

were Paul Coghlan, who I've mentioned here, and former

22

senator, Lorraine Higgins, would have mentioned it to

23

me as well.

24

so I didn't know exactly what was involved.

Yes.

And, you know, when he

So that was

So then you went -- in 2019 you

I was invited in 2019, yeah, and

Again, I had no written invitation to it

25
26

You always know there'll be some socialising

27

afterwards.

28

they call it, when you come in off the course or

29

everybody trying to meet later on.

Probably some food, either by way of, as

45

When everyone tries

 1

to meet later on -- I've been involved in organising

2

one in my own club, a golf classic which is a

3

fundraising event, in past years.

4

don't like eating together later on because if they

5

played at 11 o'clock they go at three o'clock.

6

numbers at these things can vary hugely, very

7

unpredictable.

8

during the holidays.

9

for, there was a group dinner and I stayed on for the

10

group dinner later on but I played late in the day so

11

it suited to stay on.

12

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

13

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I'm not sure if you want to

14

clarify anything else about that event.

15

was my introduction to -- this is I think a little bit

16

important.

17

organised and this Senator Donie Cassidy who I think

18

you may know or have met yourself, Judge, he was very

19

much the dominant influence in the whole thing.

20

was there.

21

my post former Leas-Chathaoirleach, Paul Coghlan,

22

wasn't able to attend at the last minute so I was kind

23

of suddenly without a host but I was told, 'listen,

24

Donie will look after you, just turn up everything will

25

be fine and he's arranged for somebody for you to play

26

with.'

27

the lobby of the Powerscourt Golf Club there was a

28

sense of very high organisation, extremely high

29

organisation.

A lot of people

So the

That event was in Powerscourt it was
I, on that occasion, stayed on

I suppose that

The fact that the event was very highly

So he

When I went -- on that day in Powerscourt

And from the moment I walked into that place in

Higher than I would have seen at events
46

 1

I've been involved in organising myself, as I say, a

2

golf classic which I sometimes help to organise in

3

St. Anne's Golf Club, where I'm a member of.

4

moment one Donie was (a) extremely organised, but also

5

extremely friendly.

6

social atmosphere.

So from

It was an extremely friendly

7
8

It's a little bit of digression but I'm appalled at the

9

kind of media treatment of the society event and the

10

it's presented, in some way it's like a Ku Klux Klan

11

now, because on that day and both times there was a

12

friendly social atmosphere.

13

people, mainly retire politicians.

14

of this is more likely retired teachers' association or

15

retired judges, not active politicians.

And I met

16

former Taoiseach, Enda Kenny, that day.

I played with,

17

and this is interesting.

18

that day as to who I was going to play, because

19

Paul Coghlan was the one I thought I'd be playing with,

20

plus one or two if we were going out in threes or

21

fours.

22

Donie Cassidy's son - who has nothing to do with

23

politics, I don't think, I don't know is he a member of

24

any political party, but he runs a hotel called the

25

Belvedere Hotel, across the name from my former school.

26

Mr. Murphy will know that I am a former Belvederean on

27

Great Denmark Street.

28

Noel Dempsey, who I had never met.

29

either of them before.

It varies.

And I met a number of
So the atmosphere

Like I had no arrangement

So I was sent out with

47

And also with former minister,
I'd never met

I met them going to the first

 1

tee, or in the clubhouse before we went out.

2
3

Now, the sort of conversations I would have had out on

4

the course would have been of a social kind of a

5

nature.

6

Attorney General at the time I doubt very much if we

7

discussed any issue of current policy or controversy

8

and that wasn't the vibe at the event.

I doubt very much -- even though I was

9
10

It was interesting listening to Minister Dempsey saying

11

about his time in Government and that he'd interacted

12

with former Attorney Generals and that kind of stuff.

13

And I also had an interesting conversation with, I

14

think Donie Cassidy's son's name is Peter, about the

15

hotel trade and the hotel sector and I told him that I

16

had been in the Belvedere Hotel a couple of times

17

across the road in recent years because I've got

18

involved again in the school because my son is

19

attending the school and I thought it was a very

20

well-run and organised hotel, it used to be a little

21

bit rundown in the 1970s when I used to go.

22

Judge, I may be giving you too much information

23

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

24

it quite well.

25

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

26

came to the speeches and prize giving --

27

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Well let's just --

28

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

In Powerscourt I mean now.

29

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Oh in Powerscourt, that's okay,

Sorry,

No, we're pottering or way through

But can I just say this:

48

When it

 1

yes.

2

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

3

and fuss at these things.

4

seriously - again in terms of the whole event being

5

quite organised and quite serious - and they

6

introduced, you know, each other, who was giving --

7

there was a few speeches, including by a man called

8

John Flaherty and he's an important figure in all of

9

this as well.

There's always a bit of palaver
This they took quite

John Flaherty is known as, I don't know

10

if you're familiar with the term, Judge, the Captain of

11

the Guard.

12

I'd seen this picture on the television of a man in

13

uniform, escorting the new Taoiseach safely to his car

14

to go out to Áras an Uachtaráin after he is voted in as

15

Taoiseach.

16

you know, I can't give you chapter and verse of his

17

exact title.

18

understand him to be the head of security and logistics

19

and operations and I understand more recently health

20

and safety in Leinster House.

21

either the secretary or the treasurer of this

22

organisation and almost a second in command to

23

Donie Cassidy.

24

that day that Donie Cassidy is a very successful

25

hotelier.

26

weren't dealing with the local pub golf society, we

27

were dealing with serious people.

28

former leader of the Seanad, I think for about ten

29

years.

Now before I had became Attorney General

He is the head of -- whatever his exact,

His title is Captain of the Guard but I

So he was introduced as

Now, I also knew from my conversations

That's relevant to what came later.

49

We

Donie Cassidy's a

 1

So my own impression of the event that day was that it

2

was a very benign event, a benign society that was

3

there to promote convivial relations between so many

4

former politicians and friends and family and it was a

5

purely social and recreational event.

6
7

I'll just add that I thought that Paul Coghlan was in

8

some way involved in the organisation but because he

9

hadn't attended he wasn't introduced during the

10

speeches so I wasn't clear was he an officer or --

11

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

12

mentioned then at Powerscourt that the 50th anniversary

13

was going to be in 2020?

14

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

15

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And a couple of people suggested

16

to you that you might attend that?

17

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

18

that this was a tremendous achievement that the society

19

had managed to foster, you know, good social relations,

20

almost to transcend politics.

21

those exact words, but that was the kind of atmosphere

22

and that, you know, they were encouraging people, that

23

even though it may be a long way away in Connemara they

24

would really love if people would come next year.

25

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

26

note that you would try and --

27

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

28

still Attorney General that October in a minority

29

government, not knowing where I'd be in August 2020.

But it was during that it was

It was mentioned with great pride

I'm not saying they used

So that's why you made a mental

Again, not knowing would I be

50

 1

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Exactly.

So no that brings us to

2

the lead up to the August 2020 event?

3

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

4

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And sometime during 2020, when you

5

were serving as Attorney, you got a verbal invitation

6

from Paul Coghlan --

7

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

8

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

-- to go to Ballyconneely and you

9

said you'd get back to them.

Then if you would like to

10

continue?

11

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

12

because of Covid and everything it's just slightly

13

harder to place things when, you know, you stop meeting

14

people.

15

for a period at least around 12th March when the

16

Taoiseach first, you know, announced the lockdown.

17

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

18

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So I'm pretty sure it had to be

19

before 12th March then, it had to be in January or

20

February where I would, as Attorney General I would go

21

over to breakfast once a week to the canteen in

22

Leinster House, (a) because I liked the big breakfast

23

and I'd only allow myself the treat of having it once a

24

week, or else I'd be in very bad shape, and (b) as an

25

opportunity that I would, you know, socialise and

26

mingle.

27

occasionally when I went over I would meet Paul Coghlan

28

and that's very likely where I met him and where I got

29

the verbal invitation.

It's a bit kind of, it's funny

Presumably we stopped meeting people around,

So once a week roughly I'd go over and

51

But again August seemed a long

 1

way away back in January or February.

My family go on

2

holidays as a family holiday in August, like most

3

people I suppose, and particularly now that my kids are

4

in school.

5

but that's gone now.

6

be going in August and I might not be around, mightn't

7

be able to go.

8

have a holiday home in Donegal and which weeks we would

9

go depend on my sister and my mother own the house, so

It was nice to go in September in the past
So if we were going abroad we'd

If we weren't going abroad my family

10

at that stage there was no idea.

11

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

You have to family work it out.

12

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

13

have really envisaged making all the effort to drive

14

from Donegal to Clifden, you know, if we were going to

15

be in Donegal that week, so it was really more in my

16

head well, if we're not in Donegal.

17

Donegal the first two weeks and I knew vaguely it was

18

in was in the latter part of August but I didn't have

19

the dates.

And at that stage I wouldn't

If we go to

20
21

So Deputy Grealish then I bumped in to.

I made a habit

22

during Covid - because it was very dull in the Attorney

23

General's office, there was nobody there hardly, except

24

myself - of bringing in lunch, eating at the desk and

25

going for a walk in either Merrion Square or Leinster

26

House lawn.

27

distance and did a few laps of that.

28

very many people but one day I bumped into

29

Deputy Grealish, who again was a very keen supporter of

Leinster House lawn is not too big a

52

I didn't meet

 1

the society and advocate, despite recent events, and

2

recent media coverage, and he would have you know, sort

3

of how do I put it, raised it with me and said, 'do you

4

think you would come?'

5

'look...'

6

the things that people were very disappointed about had

7

to stop at all because people felt golf was one of the

8

safest things.

9

might come down, I'll be able to play a bit more golf.

And I would again have said,

It's important to note that golf was one of

I remember myself thinking my handicap

10

And I remember playing twice before the lockdown,

11

immediately after 12th March whereas often I wouldn't

12

get started that early.

13

one of the first things that came back.

14

Deputy Grealish, when I met him, it was probably after

15

the golf had been reintroduced.

16

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Exactly.

17

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And I don't think anybody at that

18

stage was thinking about dinner or eating in groups or

19

eating in fours or anything.

20

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

21

your statement page 2.

22

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

23

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Then you were appointed on the

24

23rd.

25

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

26

Bar Golf Society and this is important --

27

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

28

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

-- because I'm not sure if I've

29

ever played in a golf society event before the Bar golf

So then golf was restored So

So anyway I think we've covered

Yes.

53

And this reference to the

 1

one.

I've played in golf classics which are similar.

2

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

3

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

But I'd only a hazy awareness of

4

golf societies.

5

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

6

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I'm open to correction now but I

7

suspect that the Bar Golf Society -- I played in two

8

Bar Golf things over the years only, even though I've

9

been member of the golf club since 1992 I hadn't time.

10

So I played in one in the early years, the Christmas

11

one that the Bar Golf Society have and then I played

12

last year as Attorney General last September in

13

Donal O'Donnell's President's Prize.

14

knowledge that's only twice I've ever played in the Bar

15

Golf Society.

16

one of the great ways judges and barristers can still

17

interact is through things like the golf and the

18

tennis.

19

really the Bar and Bench golf society.

20

by a barrister, a friend of mine, would I join that?

21

And I did.

To the best of my

But now I was a new judge, I was told

While it's called the Bar Golf Society it's
I was invited

22
23

A couple of things just that are relevant then to the

24

Clifden event.

25

car pulled into the car park in front of mine.

26

lift very kindly from Dermot Flanagan and as we pulled

27

in Mairéad Coghlan got out of a car in front of us.

28

She was playing in the group either before or after me

29

so I kept seeing her around the course.

I think when I saw Mairéad Coghlan, her

54

I got a

And I think

 1

that's what triggered the memory of the Bar Golf

2

Society.

3

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Put it into your mind.

4

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And the other kind of important

5

point to mention is there was a mention here about

6

dining or dinner and that we weren't going to eat in

7

the clubhouse altogether, as they normally do.

8

we ate after the, I think Donal is the President rather

9

than the Captain, after the President's Prize back in

So when

10

September 2019 in Miltown, we all ate together, the

11

whole group, probably over 50 people.

12

their difficulty here was that - and I'm only surmising

13

now, I don't know this as a definite fact - was that

14

perhaps there's more than 50 people, there's an open

15

restaurant bar area in Baltray and it wasn't possible

16

for everyone to eat together, so we ate in groups of

17

four coming in.

18

principle, a difficulty with eating after a golf

19

society event and it had been done that way in Baltray.

20

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

So I suspect

It seemed to me that there wasn't, in

Now, you say:

21
22

"After I was appointed as a Supreme Court judge I was

23

not familiar with internal judicial protocols."

24
25

Now, I'll come back to the judicial protocols and

26

guidelines, let us just go through this essentially

27

from the Covid point of view at the moment.

28

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

29

any of those.

In any event, like, I didn't get

They produce a very helpful document now
55

 1

called judicial something, judicial something handbook,

2

very helpful but it's all full of stuff about

3

bureaucracy, getting paid.

4

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Pensions.

5

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

All that stuff, yes.

6

rechecked it and to the best of my knowledge there

7

isn't any reference to any of these issues in it.

8

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

No, there isn't.

9

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So now I've played in the Bar Golf

And I've

10

Society, I've been reminded about the Oireachtas Golf

11

Society event and the thought's going through my head,

12

okay will I consider playing in that?

13

does that make any difference?

14

General anymore.

15

instinct is it's appropriate, perfectly appropriate and

16

that it's like the Bar Council Chairman's dinner which

17

I think you yourself, Judge, would have been at,

18

possibly sitting at the same table as a serving

19

minister, perhaps.

20

Frances Fitzgerald at the time and yourself at the same

21

table.

22

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

I think there was more than one.

23

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

24

knew something about the fact that there has to be

25

interaction, there will be social interaction.

26

saw this as entirely -- instinctively, I didn't think

27

about it very long, but I saw it as being in that line

28

of -- or to give you another example, Judge.

29

was Attorney General and I was being appointed a

Now I'm a judge

I'm not Attorney

I think from the outset that my

I've a vague recollection maybe of

56

And being Attorney General I

And I

When I

 1

Bencher and the date was fixed for a date in note and

2

the Taoiseach wasn't available, he was going to be away

3

and I had raised the possibility of bringing some

4

senior politicians to the dinner in the King's Inns and

5

the Benchers asked me would I put back the dinner so as

6

to ensure the Taoiseach, and as many ministers as

7

possible, would come.

8

Now, I can't see the difference between the Inns

9

hosting a social event and politicians going there and

And a flood of ministers came.

10

politicians hosting a social event and judges going

11

there.

12

and special facts.

13

time about the Oireachtas and you were sitting in the

14

case or something like that.

15

at that level.

16

something about in codes there's a think about check

17

with the President of the Court or something.

18

decided the safest thing, the precaution to take was

19

raise it with the Chief Justice.

20

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And you did?

21

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And I did.

22

to you or discussed that with you?

23

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

24

discussions with any of them.

25

stage.

26

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Okay.

27

clear memory of it.

I know exactly where we spoke,

28

what time we spoke roughly.

29

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Depending on a list of special circumstances
If there was a case going on at the

But in principle I saw it

But I decided, maybe I'd heard

I

Has he disclosed that

Oh, no, I haven't had any
I couldn't at this

So I've a very crystal

But I think one thing that comes
57

 1

across to me is that you didn't know there was going to

2

be a dinner at that time so you would have asked the

3

Chief Justice about whether it's appropriate to play in

4

the Oireachtas Golf Society game.

5

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

6

dinner of some sort or eating of some sort of.

7

wouldn't have known whether it was going to be eating

8

as we came in or a group dinner.

9

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

10

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And I'm not saying that I raised

11

that with the Chief Justice.

12

I expect that he would have known that there would

13

definitely be some element of eating involved.

14

I know the Chief Justice is not a golfer, I don't think

15

he is anyway, maybe he's played a little, but he's

16

involved in other sporting activities and I'd be amazed

17

-- and he never -- can I tell you exactly what

18

happened?

I would have known there would be
I

Of course I didn't.

But

I mean

19
20

We had the Judges' lunch.

We went back down the stairs

21

into the yard and I was minded... will I continue?

22

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes, please do.

23

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So I had it in my head, I think

24

possibly I'd mentioned it to my wife at that stage, the

25

possibility of all this, and maybe discussed well,

26

check it with the Chief Justice.

27

of conversations around that time with the Chief

28

Justice.

29

him at the lunch so when we went down into the Judges'

She's a clear memory

So when the lunch -- I wasn't sitting beside

58

 1

yard and when you come out that side door of Áras Uí

2

Dhálaigh I was going straight ahead to go back across

3

to the Law Library Building.

4

time.

5

corner where Court 6 is.

6

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

I do.

7

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Crossing the yard.

8

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

9

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And on that corner I called after

I was moving stuff at the

The Chief Justice was going in that door in the
Do you know where I mean?

10

him and I said, 'Frank, listen because I'm new at all

11

this I just want to check with you something.'

12

said, 'I've been invited to the Oireachtas Golf Society

13

outing.

14

anything wrong with it.'

15

non-party political event.

16

me, 'I don't see any problem with that.'

17

fairness to him, I didn't go into details about what

18

socialising or whether there would be dinner or not,

19

but I'd be amazed if he didn't know that there was

20

likely to be some form of eating.

21

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And I

I don't see anything, I don't think there's
I emphasised that it was a
And he immediately said to
Now, in

I mean what you say here is:

22
23

"I was not aware whether there would be a formal group

24

dinner or whether participants would dine separately

25

with their playing partners directly after their round

26

of golf."

27
28

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Where is that, Judge?

29

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

That's on page 3 just before the
59

 1

events on Wednesday the 18th.

2

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

3

right.

4

the dinner with him at that stage because I didn't know

5

myself was it going to be eating as we came in like

6

Baltray or was it going to be a group dinner.

7

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

8

page then on page 4, the end of the first paragraph:

Yes, exactly.

That's certainly

So I couldn't have raised the precise issue of

But equally, if you go over the

9
10

"At this stage I was not aware what arrangements, if

11

any, were in place for the game of golf."

12
13

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Sorry, Judge, where are you

14

reading from?

15

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

I'm on page 4.

16

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

17

spoke to the Chief Justice I wasn't aware which of the

18

forms of eating was going to be involved.

19

strongly suspected or knew that there would be some

20

eating involved.

21

be either eating as we came in in a group of four,

22

possibly being put at the same table as other people,

23

another two or another four.

24

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

25

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

But I didn't know when talking to

26

the Chief Justice.

27

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

28

that you had in mind the game of golf, that you didn't

29

know if there was anything after the game of golf, and

No, I mean at the time I

I would have

Not absolutely certain but likely to

Do you follow me, Judge?

Oh no, I'm listening to you.

I just got the impression here

60

 1

that you weren't aware, on the top of page 4:

2
3

"At that stage I was not aware what arrangements, if

4

any, were in place for after the game of golf."

5
6

You seem to be stressing that you did not know that

7

there would be a dinner or what arrangements there

8

would be.

9

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

The point is the precise form of

10

eating or dinner.

I knew it was highly likely, without

11

giving it too much thought, that there would be some

12

form of eating, as there was at the Bar Golf Society.

13

When you've been out on the course for four to five

14

hours, everybody eats nearly when they come in off the

15

course.

16

You might shower, if you're not showered at the moment.

17

As I say, in Baltray we more or less sat with our group

18

of four.

19

particular table.

20

tables to give everybody a table of four.

21

didn't -- really, to be honest with you, I would have

22

given it very little thought.

23

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

24

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

But I would have known

25

subconsciously, without giving it any degree of

26

thought, that there's going to be some form of eating

27

and that's either going to be, as always, eating as you

28

come in off the course or possibly a group dinner.

29

a group dinner of course, in principle, was perfectly

The question is, is it eating immediately?

Now one or two might have added into a
I don't know if they had enough

61

So I

And

 1

permissible under the Regulations.

2

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Let's look at page three.

3

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

4

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

You discuss:

5
6

"I indicated to the Chief Justice that it was a

7

non-party political event and I did not see a problem

8

with me attending but that as a new judge I wanted to

9

check and he indicated that he had no problem with me

10

attending the event, or words to that effect."

11
12

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

13

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And then later on down:

14
15

"I was not aware whether there would be a formal group

16

dinner or where participants would dine separately with

17

their playing partners, their golf..."

18
19

And then at page 4, over the page:

20
21

"I left the hotel around midday..."

22
23

This is on the morning of Wednesday the 19th.

24
25

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

26

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

"...at this stage I was not aware

27

what arrangements, if any, were in place for the game

28

of golf."

29
62

 1

So I was under the impression that you knew you were

2

going to play a game of golf but you had no knowledge

3

of anything after that?

4

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

About the precise arrangements.

5

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Right.

6

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

But I would have known that

7

broadly speaking there's going to be eating in some

8

shape or form, but I wouldn't have known what those

9

arrangements were.

In Baltray it had been eat when we

10

come in off the course.

Other times -- in Powerscourt

11

it was the whole group, the year before, eating

12

together.

13

these things out in full detail.

14

would have known there's going to be some eating.

15

nobody -- I wouldn't have placed any great store on the

16

issue one way or the other and I wouldn't have been too

17

bothered one way or the other.

18

if it was eating as we came in, or if it was eating in

19

a formal dinner it would have been a very, very, you

20

know, it wouldn't have been a consideration really.

21

that stage.

22

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

23

then perhaps to page 3.

24

Wednesday the 19th.

25

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

26

because it is important to say.

27

then in the light of that --

28

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

29

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

-- because it was just good to

Now I never sat down and started thinking

Yes.

But subconsciously I
But

If there was no eating,

At

Well let us just go back

Events of Tuesday the 18th and

Just before you do that, Judge,

63

I went back to my wife

 1

have got the reassurance and she also wanted just to be

2

careful and check with the Chief Justice.

3

her, 'Chief Justice says no problem going to the

4

outing.'

5

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

6

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And then I'd a couple of phone

7

calls and I made, I've a note that shows that the phone

8

calls had to be on the Wednesday the 29th or the

9

Thursday the 30th because the bottom part of the note

And I told

10

is me contacting on the hotel on the Friday.

11

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Right.

12

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I have a habit of scribbling

13

things on the back of compliment slips.

14

had a conversation with my wife and maybe one or two

15

conversations with Paul Coghlan where I now got the

16

exact dates.

17

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

18

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

But, again, nobody is bothered

19

about dinner one way or the other in these

20

conversations.

21

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

22

raised.

23

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

24

interested in here is what precisely are the dates?

25

It's the 18th and 19th.

26

we're going to Donegal week two and week three and that

27

had only been confirmed relatively recently.

28

members of my families were going week one, even though

29

it would have suited us better to be week one and two,

So I clearly

It doesn't seem to have been

It's an irrelevancy.

64

But what I'm

I now know at this stage that

Other

 1

but you know what families are like.

2

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

3

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So I now know I'm going to Donegal

4

and initially myself I was slightly doubtful.

5

awful long drive, it's an awful lot to do.'

6

say, 'look, it's holidays.'

7

holidays, you can be more social than usual.

8

my wife, 'look, they're a very nice crowd.

9

they'll appreciate me going.

'It's an

But then I

And that's a factor, it's
I said to

I know

We'll take the two cars.'

10

And I had a conversation with her about, it's nice to

11

suffer a long journey in the holidays to just listen to

12

music.

13

CDs that I'd got that I had no time to listen to for

14

months.

15

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

16

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So that was the plan.

17

would have been no focus of any kind on the dinner

18

issue one way or the other - good, bad or indifferent.

19

The whole point of going was to play in the golf and

20

whatever social interaction happened afterwards.

21

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

22

events of Tuesday the 18th and 19th:

And I just listen to -- I'd taken a couple of

Excellent.

But there

Let us start then here

23
24

"On Tuesday the 18th I was in the second week of a

25

family holiday.

26

in the Station House at approximately 6:00."

I left there around midday.

I arrived

27
28

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Can I just mention, I found it an

29

exhausting journey.

I was regretting -65

 1

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

It's a terrible drive down, yes.

2

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I'd to go through -- Donegal is

3

about two hours from -- we're in the very northeast of

4

Donegal and of course it's always worse when you

5

actually do it.

6

hours, it seemed to be more.

7

somewhere.

8

near Charlestown and then you think you're nearly there

9

when you get to Westport because it seems like not too

I try to see that it was roughly five
I stopped at one point

Down from Sligo through Mayo, stopped where

10

far, the distance, but then the road starts getting

11

much worse.

12

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

It's a wonderful road.

13

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So that is a slight factor in the

14

whole thing.

15

supposed to be, you know, resting during holidays

16

having had a very tiring couple of months.

17

really since Covid started.

18

emergency regulations, all the rest of it.

19

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

20

Paul Coghlan?

21

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

22

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And he invited you to dinner in

23

another hotel in Clifden and that's the 18th.

24

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

25

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And you had a dinner and then you

26

went back to the Station House?

27

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

28

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Were you aware that evening of any

29

public pronouncement of new Government rules in

I arrived very tired and this was

Six months

Emergency legislation,

So you were then in contact with

66

 1

relation to public dining issued through the media that

2

night?

3

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

4

Normally I'm a news addict and normally I'm always

5

checking my phone and listening to the news on the

6

radio.

7

for doing it too much and I'd have the radio on

8

listening.

9

news headlines at one stage in between the music and

No, no, I wasn't unfortunately.

My wife would be giving out to me, you know,

The only bit -- I allowed myself one bit of

10

the issue I heard about was there a row about

11

restriction of spectators at sporting events and that

12

would be close to my heart.

13

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

14

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And going in to that, the view

15

seemed to be they would increase it from 200 to maybe

16

500.

17

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

18

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And it seemed odd that you

19

couldn't have more people in big stadia, to me.

20

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

21

evening, of the Government announcement?

22

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

23

know, I didn't really check my phone for news as much.

24

I didn't buy a newspaper the next morning that I would

25

normally do.

26

reception desk.

27

staying in a hotel, you know, I'm a newspaper addict

28

get the newspaper and read the news.

29

that.

But you weren't aware, that

No, no, and unusually for me, you

There wasn't one available on the
I would nearly always, when I'm

But I didn't do

And to some extent it was deliberate, I was
67

 1

switching off.

2

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

3

the morning you had breakfast and you learned about

4

your tee time?

5

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

6

Breakfast on my own.

7

involved in the event and I didn't know very many

8

people playing in it.

9

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

10

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And that's kind of interesting

11

that I didn't about with a group of four where there

12

might have been chat about what are we doing tomorrow

13

night?

14

more conversation, but I was on my own and I'd very

15

little interaction.

Yes, you were on holiday.

So on

Can I just emphasise again.
I was, you know, not that closely

Is there a group dinner?

There might have been

16
17

The other thing I'd say, I met the owner of the hotel,

18

John Sweeney, when I came down for breakfast.

19

again I was impressed with the man.

20

even though he was the owner of the hotel -- I wasn't

21

quite sure at that stage if he was the owner or the

22

manager.

23

help everybody.

24

book breakfast when you checked in the evening before.

25

So when I came down and came out of the lift there

26

seemed to be a breakfast room on my right - which

27

ultimately turned out to be the dining room where this

28

dinner was held - and a breakfast room on the left of

29

the lobby, both sides of the lobby, and I asked him,

And

He was, you know,

He was walking around the lobby trying to
And when you came down -- you had to

68

 1

thinking he was maybe only the manager, 'do you know

2

which room I'm in?'

3

kind of slightly laughed politely but said to me, 'oh,

4

I wouldn't know those kind of details but let me bring

5

me over to...'

6

was the general manager and I went into the other

7

dining room.

8

rooms, relatively small rooms.

Which was a stupid question and he

I think it was James, who is a son, who

But these two rooms were like dining

9
10

So I'd met John Sweeney then but I didn't know he was

11

going to be at the dinner later on or anything.

12

Normally, if I was at home in Dublin and not on

13

holidays, I'm an organised person and I'd be thinking

14

ahead what's happening this evening?

15

on holidays and I don't have my wife or kids with me or

16

anything, I'm kind of freewheeling and look, I'll go

17

out to the golf club, I'll bring a change of clothes

18

and whatever happens then after the golf, grand.

19

still don't know the precise arrangements

20

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

21

your tee time was 1:20.

22

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

23

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And you arranged to meet one of

24

your four-ball for a cup of tea in the golf club in

25

Ballyconneely beforehand?

26

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

27

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And you left the hotel about

28

midday?

29

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

Yes.
69

Excellent.

But because I'm

I

But you learnt

 1

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Again you say:

2
3

"At that stage I was not aware what arrangements, if

4

any, were in place after the game of golf."

5
6

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

7

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And then you arrived in

8

Ballyconneely.

9

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

10

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And you went upstairs to the bar?

11

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yeah.

12

year I knew what the potential drill was.

13

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

14

clubhouse at a desk checking in and, you know, that's

15

how you kind of register a check-in and telling you who

16

you're playing with and so on.

17

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM: Yes.

18

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

19

in the lobby of the golf club, this year it was

20

upstairs at the bar.

21

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

22

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So as I go into the bar, on my

23

left, Donie Cassidy and Deputy Grealish are behind the

24

desk and they've got paperwork in front of them with a

25

list of players and son.

26

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

27

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I never saw a time sheet or a list

28

of players so I never knew how many people were playing

29

in the event.

Yes.

Having played the previous

That they'd be in the

Last year it had been downstairs

70

 1

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

2

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So what triggered off the dinner

3

issue was, as I checked in and they took the money off

4

me, they handed me some kind of a ticket or a docket or

5

a voucher and they said, 'this is for dinner' and maybe

6

I said, 'well what dinner?'

7

tonight in the hotel, Station House hotel at 9:00 p.m.'

8

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

9

first become aware that the dinner is to be held in the

And they said, 'dinner

So now that's really when you

10

Station House at 9:00.

11

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

12

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Did you consider phoning the

13

Chief, or any other member of the Court to seek

14

guidance in relation to the dinner.

15

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

16

been ridiculous, with respect, Judge, I really do.

17

know, I don't think an adult person on holidays in that

18

kind of a sense would go bothering the Chief Justice at

19

that stage.

20

off bother in my mind that there was any question going

21

back to him.

22

you'll speak to him, but I take it that he would --

23

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

I won't speak to anybody.

24

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Okay.

25

important.

26

have known, that there would be some kind of social

27

element to the golf.

28

holes of golf.

29

the details because I didn't know them myself but there

Ah no.

I think that would have
You

Particularly there was nothing to spark

As I say, I take it, and I don't know if

Well you see, it's kind of

My assumption is that he knew, or would

You don't just go out and play 18

Now, he wouldn't have known precisely

71

 1

was no need to go checking those details with him.

2

Either originally or subsequently on the day when I

3

found out.

4

about the fact there was going to be a dinner.

5

Gatherings of 50 people were allowed under the

6

Regulations.

7

have been involved in the Attorney General's Office,

8

these so-called guidelines to go back to, I've never

9

seen a copy of them in the Attorney General's Office.

And there was nothing inherently dangerous

And it's the Regulations that I would

10

I doubt if one ever came in the door.

And there's a

11

load of different guidelines for different sectors but

12

we can come back to those issues.

13

MR. COLLINS:

14

it's fine.

15

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

16

MR. COLLINS:

17

Justice, was your concern about judges going to an

18

Oireachtas event, what I will call the separation of

19

powers point issues or was it a Covid thing in your

20

mind?

21

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

22

powers.

23

or indifferent.

24

Covid because I didn't know the details and I had no

25

general fear about Covid.

26

MR. COLLINS:

27

learned about the dinner, was there anything that

28

sparked any concern in your mind from a separation of

29

powers perspective about having the dinner?

Could I ask a question, Judge?

If not

Of course.

When you did first contact the Chief

A hundred percent separation of

The Covid issue never came into it - good, bad
I had no basis to have a fear about

And I had gone --

Then was there anything -- when you

72

 1

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Absolutely not.

I don't see how

2

it could.

3

MR. COLLINS:

4

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE: Thanks, Mr. Collins.

5

this to you as well:

6

wasn't sitting down on my own in the clubhouse and

7

suddenly start to think about all the detail, I was

8

aware that the Regulations, such as the Regulation for

9

50 persons, I would have been aware in a very general

Sorry, Judge.
Can I say

I mean in the background, while I

10

hazy way that there were detailed guidelines and rules

11

about all of that but that the whole point was to

12

reopen up the country.

13

This was around the exact very unfortunate

14

circumstances, it was almost on the cusp of that.

15

the Government policy was for people to go and support

16

hotels and go to events.

17

guidelines in a broad way, the guidelines were designed

18

to liberalise, as much as possible, what was in the

19

Regulations.

20

Government policy was the hotels would say, 'we can't

21

function with 50 people on the premises.'

22

in broad terms, the Government had agreed to provide 50

23

people on the premises.

24

hotel in the village in Donegal I was in, you go in --

25

I wasn't thinking this through at the time, but

26

thinking back on it, you go in the lobby of the hotel -

27

and I gather this is the same over the country.

28

is not unusual, this event, in that sense.

29

the door of the hotel, the bar is on the left with an

That changed unfortunately.

But

And I knew that the

So if the Regulations said 50, the

73

And I knew,

And when I went to the local

This

You go in

 1

open door and there's maybe up to 50 people in there.

2

The sitting room, if you want to call it or another

3

room is on the right where we were one of the nights in

4

the bar, with an open door, and there was up to 50

5

people in there, and the restaurant behind the sitting

6

room on the right-hand side is operating bar food with

7

possibly up to 50 people in there.

8

I knew, broadly speaking, that was the case all over

9

the country.

So the hotels, and

So there was no panic about there's a

10

dinner.

And there was no reason to be.

I'd been in

11

Donegal eating out dinner two or three times in the

12

local hotel.

13

Guidelines, we'll come back to the separate defined

14

spaces.

15

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Let's leave that for a moment.

16

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Okay.

17

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

I'm still on page 4, okay.

18

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

My attitude when the dinner was

19

mentioned, there was some caution by me.

20

registered with me that this was a group dinner as

21

opposed to us eating when we come in.

22

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

23

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So I've a flicker of a question or

24

hesitation and I ask Paul Coghlan, because he's my host

25

and I think he's part of the organising committee so I

26

don't have to ask Donie Cassidy directly or

27

Noel Grealish, who are still registering people and are

28

busy over to my left.

29

reassurance from him, as I said in my statement, that

When we talk about, Judge, in the

In the hotel in Donegal --

74

So it

I got an extremely strong

 1

Donie and the organising committee had consulted

2

extensively with the authorities and ensured that

3

everything would be in compliance with the rules and

4

the public health guidelines.

5

emphatic terms that that was the case.

6

Judge, where I'm at in the middle of page 4?

7

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

8

that it's the conversation with Paul Coghlan that

9

reassures that Covid is being --

And it was said to me in

Oh, yes, I do.

Absolutely.

Do you see,

So you're saying

10

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And the kind of

11

people that I know implicitly he's giving the assurance

12

on behalf of, Donie Cassidy and I mentioned Captain of

13

the Guard, what's his name again?

14

instinctively have a good basis for relying upon that

15

reassurance.

16

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

17

or any details like that?

18

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

19

generally would.

20

respect, that people would.

21

immediately in my brain call up the number 50?

22

hard to know in retrospect.

23

there was a 50 but at that split second, what I would

24

have been aware was that there's a numbers restriction

25

but there's loads of guidelines with flexibility about

26

the numbers restriction.

27

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

28

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I would have known that and I

29

would have seen it, without thinking too much about it.

John Flaherty.

So I

Did you actually discuss 50 people

No.

No.

And I don't think people

I think it's artificial, with

75

And, you know, and did I
It's

I would have been aware

 1

And I would have been told of people in very famous and

2

prominent hotels in Wexford and Kerry, their holiday

3

experience, and one or two friends had mentioned to me

4

that there was, you know, no large numbers eating at

5

night in a couple of very prominent hotels in Ireland.

6

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

7

page 5 and it's really a continuation of the same

8

thing.

9

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Absolutely.

I will turn over to

Can I just add, sorry to interrupt

10

you.

11

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

12

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

It's useful.

13

about when this maelstrom exploded, what I wasn't sure

14

about was just a conversation with Paul Coghlan but

15

helpfully it appears that the conversation took place

16

as we sat down at a table.

17

desk is --

18

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

19

about?

20

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

21

reception desk case is where Mr. Conboy is, we'll say,

22

right?

23

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

24

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Okay.

25

into the bar.

26

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

27

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And I think it was the first table

28

beside the bar.

29

think we went straight from there, about this kind of

What I wasn't sure

So let's say the reception

And which table are we talking

That's what I'm going to.

So the

And then you turn right

So the side of the bar was here so I

76

 1

distance (indicating), I think slightly -- to a table

2

where my three playing partners were sitting.

3

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

4

it?

5

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

6

golf club.

7

conversation with Paul out of hearing with those people

8

but I've been able to check, and you'll have seen the

9

statement of Lorraine Higgins that Lorraine heard the

10

conversation and she's a very clear memory of me, you

11

know, raising it and looking for assurance.

12

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

13

him about the event.

14

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

15

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And he is a person that you are

16

satisfied --

17

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

18

strongly.

19

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

20

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Just a slight query about the fact

21

that unlike at Baltray, where we ate when we came in,

22

this was now a group dinner.

23

But I got a very, very strong reassurance from Paul and

24

was like, look, Donie and the committee have -- and

25

that was the kind of phrase, they have consulted

26

extensively with the authorities to ensure that

27

everything complies.

Now, this is in Ballyconneely, is

Ballyconneely Golf Club, in the

So I wasn't sure did I have the

So you raised your concern with

Concern might be putting it too

And I just queried it.

28
29

What kind of put the extra tin hat on it was somebody
77

 1

said.

'Séamus, the event was going to be in the golf

2

club, the dinner, but it's been moved to the hotel to

3

ensure compliance with the guidelines.'

4

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

5

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And you see that was probably the

6

same issue as in Baltray.

7

deeply at the time, but the clubhouse upstairs was one

8

room and I didn't know there was going to be more than

9

50 people, but that was presumably the issue.

I didn't think about it

10
11

Now I understand the organisers themselves weren't sure

12

whether there would be 50 people or not and it was

13

moved to the hotel in case there would be 50.

14

the weather forecast is another important issue I must

15

mention, Judge.

16

leading up to that Wednesday and as of Saturday and

17

Sundays I was checking it every day and I wasn't to go

18

at all if it was clear it was going to be raining all

19

day.

20

happened none of this maelstrom would have happened

21

because a lot of people wouldn't have played on the

22

Wednesday at all and there couldn't have been any

23

dinner for more than 50 people.

24

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

25

about how it's been well run and Donie Cassidy.

26

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

27

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And you're satisfied with that and

28

was there no discussion about the fact that there had

29

been, the night before, new guidelines, the Government

You see

The weather forecast was dreadful

And it looked like it was.

And if that had

You have a reply from Paul Coghlan

78

 1

announcement?

2

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No.

3

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

No discussion at all about that?

4

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No.

5

and you'll have see it in the engineer's report that

6

Donie Cassidy -- Noel Grealish heard something about

7

it, raised it with Donie Cassidy and Donie Cassidy did

8

the correct thing and contacted the Irish Hotels

9

Federation.

I found out retrospectively,

You see there's a chain in the way these

10

worked, these guidelines.

11

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Oh, I understand, yes.

12

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And the chain was very, very

13

importantly because it's in a way hypocritical, the

14

Government of Ireland are at the top of the chain.

15

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

They announce it.

16

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And then Fáilte Ireland and then

17

the actual board representative body.

18

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

19

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

But the sector consult in the

20

first instance with the representative body.

21

they've any doubt about it, they ask the next leg up on

22

the chain.

23

a number of these cases, when there was a query, I just

24

heard this, I wasn't in direct experience of it.

25

queries ended up at the highest level in the Department

26

of An Taoiseach.

27

about the Department of Tourism confirming that there

28

were no new guidelines in place on the Wednesday, that

29

was probably cleared with the Department of An

If

But in my experience as Attorney General in

Those

So when we see this e-mail later on

79

 1

Taoiseach, but that's perhaps not for you to have to

2

deal with, Judge, thankfully.

3

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

4

thank goodness.

5

with.

6

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

7

to emphasise, if I hadn't any experience with

8

Donie Cassidy or John Flaherty I mightn't have had such

9

close to complete confidence in them, to be honest with

I don't have to deal with that,

That's one thing I don't have to deal

One thing, Judge, that I do have

10

you.

Once I got those assurances I really didn't think

11

much after that moment again about there being any risk

12

about breach of guidelines.

13

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

14

to Enda Kenny.

15

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

16

previous year.

17

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

18

You didn't meet him at Ballyconneely?

19

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

20

I understand.

21

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

22

Wednesday?

23

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

24

my information is that he told people, on Tuesday - his

25

playing partners - that he couldn't go to the dinner on

26

the Wednesday night because he had another commitment.

27

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

28

Dick Spring, who is the other name?

29

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

You said already that you talked

No, I met him in Powerscourt the

Oh, you met him in Powerscourt.

No, he only played on the Tuesday,

Ah, he didn't play on the

No, but contrary to media reports

All right.

And what about

My understanding is Dick Spring
80

 1

played on the Wednesday but my understanding from the

2

organisers is that a family dinner because of a 70th

3

birthday, but that's just what I've been told.

4

MR. COLLINS:

5

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

6

never saw a time sheet, so I don't know --

7

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

You didn't Dick Spring?

8

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I never saw him but I never even

9

saw a list of who was playing, so I don't know did they

10

start playing at 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock and was I one

11

of the last or was I one of the first?

12

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

13

maelstrom.

14

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

15

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And the reason I asked you about

16

Enda Kenny is because we have The Independent, I'll

17

hand it over to you in a minute.

18

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

19

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

"Enda Kenny refused invite to

20

Golfgate dinner and was very unhappy about it going

21

ahead."

Did you meet him on the day?
No.

I didn't me Dick Spring.

I

You've been talking about the

22
23

And then:

24
25

"Former Taoiseach refused a dinner invitation to the

26

Station House from the Oireachtas Golf Society and was

27

very unhappy about it going ahead.

28

the Tuesday but then made it clear he would not attend

29

the dinner and did not thing it was a good idea.
81

He played golf on

He

 1

believed it would send out the wrong signal to the

2

general public."

3
4

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

5

Thank you.

May I see that?

(SAME HANDED)

6

I

7

obviously wasn't talking to Enda Kenny.

But I'm told

8

that Enda Kenny said to his playing partners on the

9

Tuesday that he'd another commitment on the Wednesday

10

night and couldn't attend the dinner.

11

of that at the time.

12

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

I don't have to decide that.

13

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I didn't know that at the time one

14

way or the other.

15

year -- Enda Kenny's been at a lot of dinners in the

16

last or 10 or 15 years and the previous year in

17

Powerscourt I had a drink with him when we went

18

upstairs, along with Noel Dempsey and a serving judge

19

who was a relative of Noel Dempsey.

20

I had a drink with before the dinner.

21

didn't stick around for the dinner that year either, he

22

went to meet his son in Dublin and go for dinner with

23

him.

24

to dinners, Judge, as you probably were, when you were

25

finished as Chief Justice.

26

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

27

you might have answered it, but did Enda Kenny speak to

28

you at all?

29

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Can I say this:

Now, I knew none

The previous

They were the four
And Enda Kenny

So I would say he's probably very sick of going

So tell me, I think to some extent

Enda Kenny?
82

 1

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

2

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No, I never met him on this event.

3

As far as I know he was there on the Tuesday.

4

arrived --

5

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

6

Ballyconneely?

7

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

8

o'clock and I presume he left the golf club.

9

course, don't forget Enda Kenny lives in Castlebar.

I

You never met him in

No, I arrived on Tuesday at six
Of

10

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Oh, I know.

11

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So he can go home.

12

did, I think.

13

stayed for any dinner.

14

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

15

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And sorry, the dinner could have

16

been on the Tuesday or the Wednesday night.

17

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

18

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

They had it on the Wednesday

19

night.

20

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

21

night, exactly.

22

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

23

about Donie Cassidy from in a general way and then when

24

the golf happened and playing with his son the previous

25

year that I regarded him as a person of high integrity,

26

high ability, high organisation and as a hotelier

27

businessman.

28

make the point, a pub golf society where the person in

29

charge knows nothing about the hospitality trade, this

As some people

They played golf and went home and never

They had it on the Wednesday

Can I emphasise:

My knowledge

Whatever about relying upon, again I can

83

 1

is the man who himself in his daily basis is dealing

2

with the Guidelines.

3

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

4

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And that's an important factor,

5

allied to John Flaherty who I would just have huge

6

trust and faith and confidence in.

7

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

8

until we get to the night of Wednesday the 19th.

9

mean I have your statement there about who were in your

Now I think there's nothing there
I

10

four-ball and the weather and you had a drink in the

11

Station House before dinner and then you went and had a

12

rest.

13

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

14

say we had a drink in the Station House?

15

to meet for a drink in the Station House, we had a

16

drink in the golf club.

17

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

18

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And had some lunch.

19

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

So that brings us then to the night of -Judge, just to correct.

Did you

We arranged

20
21

"Three of us arranged to meet for a drink in the

22

Station House before dinner."

23
24

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

A very casual kind of arrangement.

25

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

26

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

You know, 'we might have a drink

27

at 8:00 or 8:15', something like that.

28

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

29

night of the 19th.

Yes.

Then that brings us to the

You went downstairs at 8:15 and you
84

 1

met your playing partners for a drink?

2

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

3

perhaps to give a sense of reality to this.

4

those assurances I wasn't going around, you know, with

5

a sort of a reserved suspicion that they mightn't

6

comply with the guidelines or anything.

7

my truth and faith with them, on the basis of those

8

assurances, and I was very reassured and I was relaxed

9

going downstairs and going to dinner.

Can I just say something here
Having got

I had placed

So I wasn't on

10

guard, or snooping around or should I print out a copy

11

of the guidelines and check them, or anything.

12

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

So when I came downstairs.

13

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

14

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

You didn't ask anybody any more

15

about whether or not the Covid --

16

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

17

crowd.

18

on the Friday morning when the bomb went off to hear

19

the media suggesting there were 80 people at the

20

dinner.

21

relatively small number of people around.

22

were also some people sitting - you'll have seen the

23

engineer's photographs - in the chairs in the lobby

24

outside the bar.

25

if those people were guests in the hotel.

26

lot of other people staying in the hotel other than the

27

golf people staying in the hotel.

28

sense to me, in the way there often is at functions

29

when you've a pre-dinner drink, that there's a big

No.

There was no sense of a big

This is the funny thing.

Why I was astonished

When I went into the bar there seemed to be a
Now, there

But of course I wouldn't have known

85

There were a

So there was no

 1

crowd.

In fact the opposite.

I would only have seen

2

in the bar six or seven or eight people that I knew

3

were involved in the golf.

4

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

5

some people had left the golf and were not coming to

6

the dinner?

7

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes, I did.

8

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And was there any discussion or

9

did anybody have a discussion with you about the reason

So at that time did you know that

10

for not going to the dinner was a concern?

11

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

12

they weren't going to dinner for logistical reasons.

13

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Right.

14

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Not a single person raised a

15

concern about Covid issues.

16

he had come on the Monday, his wife had come with him,

17

they'd broken off from their family holiday with their

18

kids, somebody else was minding their kids, and having

19

stayed Monday night, played in the golf Tuesday, his

20

wife tempted to play, though she doesn't normally play

21

golf, and that seems to have survived, the marriage

22

seems to have survived that day, and he went -- so he

23

played on Wednesday then but didn't stick around

24

afterwards.

25

Wednesday.

26

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

27

people being concerned and refusing to go to the

28

dinner?

29

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Discussion I would have would be

So one person that I know,

So the two of them drove away on the

Yes.

Zero.
86

So you had no sense of

Zero sense.

 1

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Excellent.

Well then let us move

2

on.

3

photographs you gave to us.

4

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

5

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

When you went into the dining room

6

I think you went past a table with two chairs?

7

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

8

assistance to go to them, it's tab 5 in my book of

9

photographs and if you look at image 4 maybe is where

You entered the dining room.

Just looking at the

If you go to, it may be of

10

I'm starting.

I'm in the bar there, if you can read

11

the sign above "The Library"?

12

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

So we're at --

13

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I'm at image 4 on page 6.

14

Judge, I'm just starting back with being in the bar and

15

coming out of the bar.

16

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

The Library is the bar.

17

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

The Library is the bar and I was

18

with Lorraine Higgins and one or two other people

19

having a drink.

20

pint finished and Paul Coghlan came in and said.

21

you come all inside now,' and I think he said, 'there's

22

Prosecco and stuff inside.

23

through that door, do you see the door the other side

24

where there's a bit of wall to the right of The Library

25

entrance, do you see that, Judge?

26

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

27

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So I turn right and then let's go

28

to image 6 maybe, I turn left rather, turn left into

29

that corridor.

So,

My memory is that I didn't even get my

87

'Will

So I come out, I turn left

 1

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

You turn left into that door, yes.

2

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Into that corridor, yes.

3

MR. MURPHY:

4

could you to name the photographs.

5

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

6

access hall into the suite.

7

of at least two other people, Lorraine Higgins and the

8

Moroccan Ambassador, and I was chatting.

9

noticed that table.

I see it now in the photograph.

10

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

So that table we're looking at is

11

in image 6 and it has a chair on either side.

12

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

13

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And I understand that there was a

14

table plan on top of it?

15

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

16

seen references that Noel Grealish was walking around

17

holding the table plan outside in the lobby.

18

was stopping anybody who wasn't -- I didn't know any of

19

this at the time, but he was stopping anybody who

20

wasn't in the Omey Suite going into that corridor you

21

see in image 6 and he was diverting them off to a

22

different corridor which leads to the other suite.

23

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

24

didn't see that?

25

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No.

26

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

You didn't see that?

27

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No.

28

to you?

29

the same experience - if I'd gone into the room I would

I wonder, Judge, just for the record,

I'm going to image 6 now, the
I was walking in a group

I never

I've seen that said but I've also

And he

So what you're saying is you

But, what was I going to say

Normally at events - and I'm sure you've had

88

 1

expect the table plan to be inside the room probably.

2

As soon as I arrived at the door of the room, somebody

3

I think Paul Coghlan said, 'Séamus you're at table 5.'

4

So I never needed to look for a table plan.

5

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And you sat down.

6

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No, I didn't sit down immediately.

7

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Right.

8

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I stood at the table for a few

9

minutes and.

At that stage I was, I think, the second

10

person to arrive at the table and there was a lady on

11

my left, this is slightly important, a lady on my left

12

who I'd never met before, I didn't know who she was.

13

She turned out to be the Lady President or Lady Captain

14

of the golf club and she'd been invited.

15

usually do that at these golf things.

16

whatever club the place is hosted in somebody gets

17

invited to dinner and is thanked for offering the

18

facilities.

19

conversation with her.

20

regard.

21

head and my body to the right to Lorraine Higgins and

22

the Ambassador.

23

much after the early part of the dinner because she

24

knew the people on the her left, which were the hotel

25

owner's wife and the hotel owner, Mr. Sweeney.

26

had a chat with her, introduced myself for, you know,

27

what would have been five minutes perhaps before the

28

other people came and we all sat down.

29

MR. MURPHY:

They always

You know,

So at that point I was able to engage in
But it's important in this

Later on most of the time I was directing my

I didn't speak with that lady very

So I

Judge, I wonder if it might be appropriate
89

 1

to take a very short comfort break for just two

2

minutes?

3

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Of course.

4
5

THE MEETING ADJOURNED BRIEFLY AND RESUMED AS FOLLOWS:

6
7

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I appreciate and I will try and

8

keep the answers a little bit shorter, if I can.

9

just go back on one point I need to clarify, because it

Can I

10

might be helpful?

This idea of the make up of the

11

society and the volume of politicians as opposed to the

12

volume of other people and family and friends.

13

managed to get information last night from one of the

14

organisers that the figures for the Wednesday were,

15

just bear with me a sec, please, Judge, that there was

16

one sitting TD on the Wednesday played, six sitting

17

senators - so seven active politicians - 16 former

18

members of the Oireachtas, so we're now up to 23, 7 and

19

16 either active or former members of the Oireachtas

20

and that that represented approximately 50% of the

21

total number of playing, probably slightly less.

22

wasn't able to get an absolute figure for total who

23

played in the end but it was in the high 40s I was

24

told.

25

former politician and one relative of at that stage a

26

former politician and this year I played with one

27

former senator, one former TD who I surprised when he

28

told me he had left the Dáil in 2002, it didn't seem

29

like so long, Gerry Reynolds, and the fourth person

I

I

Of course I had played the first year with one

90

 1

was -- I'll give you an example of how informal this

2

whole business was, I think.

3

understanding is a man called Tony Walsh.

4

face, I play squash in Fitzwilliam, squash is my main

5

sport.

6

with a cup of tea, I thought, 'God, I know that guy,

7

what's he doing here?'

8

Ballyconneely and he drops up to the golf club

9

regularly and he got roped in at the last minute to

The fourth person, my
I know his

So when I saw this man sitting at the table

So it seems that he holidays in

10

play.

And when Paul Coghlan didn't feel like going out

11

a second day and playing the Tuesday -- sorry, correct

12

that.

13

because he was in Ballyconneely and he was down around

14

the golf club and there must have been a spare slot or

15

something.

16

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

17

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And then on the Wednesday he ended

18

up in my group, and I don't know what background

19

Mr. Walsh is from but that -- now he then ended up at

20

the dinner I think.

21

at the first table on the right at Paul Coghlan's

22

table.

23

until the Tuesday or the Wednesday.

24

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

25

one other thing I'd like to go back.

26

there's been a maelstrom of media about all of this.

27

If I could take image 9 in your book.

28

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

29

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

You have here the table in the

Tony Walsh himself played on the Tuesday just

I think I saw him when I came in

I presume he knew nothing about the dinner

Just thinking about that, there's

91

As you say,

 1

hallway which contained the table plan.

2

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

3

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

So that's a public area.

4

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

5

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And people could go by --

6

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

7

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

-- and they would see your name on

8

the table plan?

9

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes, if they saw it or read it

10

which I doubt many people did.

11

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

12

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And you said that.

13

you didn't see it but the point is that it is a

14

document in a public place.

15

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

16

that Deputy Grealish picked it up and was walking

17

around with it.

18

know if that's true or not.

19

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

20

evening anyway.

21

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

22

instructions from the hotel owner that it was there.

23

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

24

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So that's the basis for that

25

reference.

26

player at the event might have seen it.

27

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

28

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

That's my assumption that at

29

the -- the only people, the only place the engineer

But it was there on the -I accept that

Well it is, except I've been told

That's what I've been told.

I don't

Well, it was there for part of the

Well, the engineer must have got

That's, I don't think, coming from any

92

 1

could have got that is from my solicitor or the hotel

2

owner.

3

But Deputy Grealish is maybe the only one who could

4

answer that question, based upon what the organisers

5

have told me.

6

if he was going to be directing people to the other

7

suite and he had to know who was at what table to

8

direct them.

9

doing what he was supposed to be doing.

So the hotel owner must think it was put there.

Because he had to be outside that area

So it couldn't have been there if he was

10

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Unless he had a second copy.

11

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

That's possible and we can

12

speculate endlessly.

13

MR. COLLINS:

14

form the table and taken it away.

15

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

He could.

16

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

What I've been told is that he had

17

the table plan.

18

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Right.

19

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I haven't been told there's any

20

suggestion -- and I doubt very much for a society golf

21

outing they would bother printing too many.

22

MR. MURPHY:

23

which I've referred to Mr. Collins, of a framed table

24

plan.

25

the information, but I just have a concern that it is

26

part of the narrative and --

27

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

28

it so I know nothing about the table plan.

29

MR. MURPHY:

Or he could have picked it up, I suppose,

It could be either.

I am just concerned.

There is information

If you wish we can put that to you and show you

One way or the other I never saw

But if an issue is being raised as to
93

 1

whether one existed in the frame...

2

MR. COLLINS:

3

are to do with what Judge Woulfe knew and was aware of

4

and the judgements that he made based on the knowledge

5

that he had, I'm not sure it's really necessary to go

6

into extraneous sources that we don't know really the

7

provenance of them at all.

8

MR. MURPHY:

9

a dispute being made that there was a table plan on the

I think as far as the issues really are

No, but I just want to be clear.

Is there

10

table?

11

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

12

don't know what it said.

13

MR. MURPHY:

14

as you could see it but is there dispute that one

15

existed at all?

16

MR. COLLINS:

17

plan.

18

table plan.

19

somebody else says there was a table plan that may well

20

be correct.

21

not so.

22

simply that we have no information about it one way or

23

the other.

24

MR. MURPHY:

25

recording which we are in a position to show to you,

26

unless you have an objection, if there is any dispute

27

that there was in existence a table plan.

28

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

29

but (b) that that my information, and it may be correct

I never saw it is the point.

I've never seen it, even now.

I think that's a separate issue.

No.

So I

Insofar

We can't say there was no table

Neither can we say for certain that there was a
Judge Woulfe never saw a table plan.

If

We're not in a position to say that was

So we're not disputing it in that sense, it's

Again, just for the purposes, there is a

My answer is (a) I never saw is

94

 1

or incorrect, from one of the organisers is that the

2

organiser, Noel Grealish, was holding the table plan

3

and was diverting people outside where, if you go back

4

to image 4.

5

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes, I have it.

6

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

You see some people, I knew none

7

of this at the time of course.

8

go -- do you see the doors there to the right, there's

9

The Library doors, there's the doors I went through and

Do you see image 4, Judge?

Some people had to

10

if you go keep going across the doors on the right,

11

that's the corridor down to the other suite.

12

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Right.

13

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So Noel Grealish had to be out

14

there somewhere in the lobby in order to divert people

15

that way or into the corridor I was in.

16

know, I didn't know at the time, he had to know whether

17

a person was going to one dining room or the other

18

dining room.

19

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

20

appears to have been a table plan and I must consider

21

whether there was a table plan, but most the important

22

thing is did you see a table plan?

23

MR. COLLINS:

24

it?

25

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

26

it and have never seen it.

27

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

28

point of view in the sense that we have discussed that

29

there was a table plan, we understand but that you

So he had to

I think a concern is that there

Does it really matter if he didn't see

Didn't see it, was never aware of

That answers the concern from that

95

 1

didn't see it.

2

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No.

3

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Because we have had a maelstrom of

4

media and I anticipate we might have one later on so we

5

must address the issues.

6

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

7

MR. COLLINS:

8

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

9

of page 5 I think.

I think that's it.

I understand.

All right.
So that brings us down to the end

10

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Just bear with me a moment, Judge,

11

just to get my bearings again.

12

discussing the start of the dinner and, you know, going

13

to the table and I said in the statement it wasn't a

14

particularly big room, it was a dining room rather than

15

what I would normally consider a function room.

16

seen it, I had glanced at it in the morning where it

17

appeared to be an overflow breakfast room or an

18

alternative breakfast room on the right.

19

struck by anything when I went in that it was a big

20

room or it was a particularly big crowd.

21

said on page 5, I'm at the second last full paragraph,

22

that my recollection is there were between six and

23

eight tables in it.

24

when I was doing this statement how many tables there

25

were in it and it turns out there were six.

26

I wasn't in any way on guard and I didn't count the

27

number of people in the room, although I now understand

28

there were apparently 45 people there.

29

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Right, I think I was

I had

And I wasn't

You'll note I

So I couldn't remember initially

This idea,

Well, just looking at the room.
96

 1

I'm looking at image 30.

2

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

3

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And it appears that there's three

4

tables in the front, one on the left, so two and three,

5

and then three tables at the back.

6

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

7

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Four and five in the middle which

8

appears to be your table.

9

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

And sometimes it's

10

difficult, as we know from doing cases, personal injury

11

cases, with angles and stuff but I think that my table

12

is slightly forward from the two tables to the side.

13

I'm not quite sure why that is, but that was for a

14

social distancing reason and it doesn't come out very

15

clearly in that photograph.

16

no, I don't think the three tables were in an exact

17

line.

18

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

19

find that myself because I think you're right if you

20

look at it.

21

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

22

of the --

23

MR. MURPHY:

24

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

25

that's exactly my point.

26

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

27

forward and not in line with six and four.

28

only thing that occurs to me there is when you look at

29

your table, immediately behind you there is an open

But I don't think the --

Page 16.

I was just trying to

Sorry, Mr. Murphy, is it page 16

Of the engineer's report.
The report, thank you.

Yes,

I hadn't noticed that before.

So your table was a little bit

97

Now the

 1

partition, if you look at image 29?

2

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

3

with respect, the wrong photograph to start with.

4

understanding is that opening only came during the

5

speeches.

6

image 14, which shows my seat and shows the retractible

7

wall fully closed behind me.

8

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Okay.

9

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Do you see it there, image 14,

Yes.

I think that's probably,
My

So I think you're probably better to go to

10

Judge?

11

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

I do.

12

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And do you see me with the seat

13

square on facing forward.

14

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

15

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And with my back square on to the

16

retractible wall.

17

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

18

service people coming in and out even when the wall is,

19

as you say?

20

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

21

out is that if you go to a different photograph there

22

was a gap at the end of the retractible wall.

23

go to image 25 on page 19?

24

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

25

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I'm just trying to see now.

26

Actually it's better if you go to image 19 please,

27

which is, we are the Omey Suite, I think, aren't we?

28

Go to image 19.

29

other words from my seat if I was looking across to the

Yes.

And there must have been

What the engineer's report brings

If you

You'll see at the end of the wall, in

98

 1

left, while I couldn't actually see the gap but there

2

was a gap there for service people to go to and from

3

the kitchen, I understand.

4

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Let's have a look at 13.

5

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Exactly.

6

sitting in one of the front tables, maybe two or three,

7

you could have seen that gap.

8

conscious of.

9

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Image 13.

If you were

I never saw it or was

And you weren't conscious of

10

people walking by, by you that they weren't walking

11

directly behind you?

12

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Do you mean staff?

13

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

14

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I was conscious of staff serving

15

meals at times, yes.

16

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

17

entering or leaving close by you?

18

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

19

were coming specifically through a gap, but I wasn't

20

aware of there being anything in the room behind me so

21

that could have been the kitchen for all I knew,

22

immediately behind me.

23

the wall.

24

room behind the wall.

25

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

You didn't?

26

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No, at any stage.

27

just make the point, from my seat, this is why I was

28

making the point about image 19, you know, I'm not sure

29

even if I had tried to turn around that I could have

But you weren't conscious of them

No, no.

I never noticed that they

I didn't know what was behind

I didn't know there was a second function

99

And also, can I

 1

seen much of that gap.

I would have seen maybe the

2

section of -- you see the way when the wall is

3

retracted a bit of it then bends out into the wall

4

behind.

5

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

6

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So I could see that but I'm not

7

sure -- I don't know because I never did look over in

8

that corner but I'm not sure that I would have seen

9

much of a gap.

And I'm not sure if the people even --

10

do you see the chairs there on that table in image 19?

11

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

12

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I'm not sure if those people could

13

see the people on the other side of the wall.

14

think so because in one photograph it suggests they

15

couldn't.

16

MR. COLLINS:

17

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

18

Judge.

19

of the person in the best position to assess that gap

20

if they noticed it.

Do you see the chair --

21

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

22

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

-- furthest to the centre of the

23

photograph.

24

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

25

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Now on that view they can see a

26

tiny, tiny flicker of a chair through the gap.

27

all they can see.

28

MR. MURPHY:

29

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

I don't

I'll try and find it.
Image 20, for example.
Yes.

If you go to image 20,

Do you see image 20?

That's a very good photo

That's the service hatch.
That's the service hatch.
100

That's

 1

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

That's the service hatch or gap or

2

whatever you want to call it.

3

way (indicating) so you have to come through to get to

4

the kitchen it seems.

5

conscious of thinking where they were bringing the food

6

from.

7

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

8

prizing giving.

9

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

10

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And they opened the partition.

11

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

A couple of points about this.

12

you see me, if you go to image 31, that's table 5 on

13

the left and I think my chair is supposed to be the

14

first photograph going in from the left edge.

15

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Or the second?

16

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I think the first, I think that's

17

the most square on to the wall.

18

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

19

see.

20

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

21

opened until media coverage later.

22

you see the size of the panels?

23

small degree.

24

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

25

look at it, it appears to be immediately behind you.

26

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

27

left shoulder, maybe, depending again on the angle.

28

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Were you aware when it was open?

29

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No, no.

And the kitchen is that

I wasn't anyway aware or

Yes.

Now, we then get to the

If

One or the other.

Oh, yes, from the left.

Yes, I

Yes.
And I never knew the gap was
But it wasn't -- do

It was only open to a

I mean it wasn't -It was -- it appears, when you

Or very slightly maybe over my

101

Can I say something,

 1

Judge?

2

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

3

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I have a pet hate life about

4

people that don't pay respect to speeches at functions.

5

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

6

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

As Attorney General I had this

7

myself and it irritated me a lot.

8

effort to organise things or make a speech I believe in

9

watching the speech and keeping quiet until the end of

If people make an

10

the speech.

And I spoke one sentence during the whole

11

of the speeches to Lorraine Higgins on my right and

12

again, if anything I was slightly angled towards the

13

right and I made some joke about the speeches dragging

14

on a bit.

15

that happened was I have a vague recollection of a

16

fella called Gerry Brady won a prize and he seems to be

17

the guy who, I think he's a husband of a former TD is

18

it Áine Kitt or Anne Kitt?

19

when she was a TD.

20

Judge?

21

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM: No.

22

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

23

from Kildare.

24

the husband.

25

recollection of him coming to get a prize but I didn't

26

see him coming behind me coming, I saw him just on my

27

left, left and in front going up to get a prize.

28

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

29

that because this partition is opened there's a change

And nothing unusual in that.

The only thing

She went by Brady, I think,

I don't know if you know her,

Or have come across her?

She was

But this fella Gerry Brady I think is
And as far as I know, I'd a vague

I mean did you or do you accept

102

 1

in the physical configuration of the room?

2

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

3

spaces.

4

for a few moments is a breach of the guideline.

5

is it's a very, very miniscule breach by the

6

organisers.

7

that happening?

8

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

You didn't notice it?

9

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I didn't notice it.

The guideline is separate defined

It's very arguable whether or not opening it
If it

And how can a guest be responsible for

I never saw

10

it.

And I was tired and, you know, I was chatting, I'd

11

a few glasses of wine and it's the end of the night, I

12

hope, or close to it.

13

posit the question:

14

noticed it?

15

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

16

whether there were a few times that you maybe should

17

have considered whether you should have gone to the

18

dinner.

19

it, should you have had concern about going to the

20

dinner then?

21

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Despite the reassurances?

22

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

That's your answer, of course.

23

Then when you go into the dinner and you look around,

24

should you have reconsidered and left?

25

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

26

45 people within the Regulations?

27

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

28

thirdly when the door opened, the partition was opened

29

to another room where there were people and somebody

And, I mean, Judge, could I

What was I supposed to do if I had

Well, I suppose that comes back to

I mean, first of all, when you're told about

In circumstances where there was

That's your answer.

103

And then

 1

was coming in for a prize, should you have concern at

2

that stage?

3

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

4

question, the last one.

5

22.

6

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

7

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

If I had seen it, it looks as if I

8

would only have been able to see three seats, three

9

extra diners in there, if I'd seen it.

Okay, can I partly answer that
If you go to image 30 on page

That's one

10

point.

Was I then supposed to jump up from the table

11

and try and go in and possibly breach the Guidelines

12

myself by breaking the separate defined spaces and

13

examine what was going on in the other room?

14

does this notion stop?

15

organisers and say, 'hang on a moment, are these people

16

in the other room all part of this function?'

17

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

18

other people.

19

a judge.

20

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

21

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And having, we'll come back to

22

this in a minute, but with that position should you not

23

have had a concern when, as I say, these three separate

24

events occurred, or any other time during the time from

25

when you were told about the dinner until the dinner

26

was over?

27

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

28

specified to me why I should have a concern or what the

29

concern should have been?

And where

Was I then to jump over to the

Even forget all about all the

I mean you are an honoured guest, you're

Well, if it could be sort of more

104

I can't see that that's the

 1

case.

And even if I'd seen it, I think it's totally

2

artificial and ridiculous almost to suggest that a

3

guest, who's never seen the Guidelines, doesn't know

4

exactly what they say, any guest - whether he's a judge

5

or not - should suddenly take on the role of policeman

6

towards the end of a function that they're a guest at,

7

risk extreme discourtesy to your host.

8

it stop?

9

MR. COLLINS:

And where does

Jump in there.
Isn't it hypothetical?

10

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes, it is.

11

MR. COLLINS:

12

So the occasion for him engaging in that type of

13

revaluation never arose because he never actually saw

14

it.

15

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

16

benefit of hindsight, which is of course 20/20, would

17

you accept that you could have been vigilant in

18

relation to the evolving circumstances of the evening,

19

in particular the removal of the panel and the prize

20

giving, in which the communal doors were opened?

21

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

22

benefit of hindsight, is knowing the facts you knew

23

there and now thinking back.

24

see how benefit of hindsight avails me as regards the

25

small opening up of a gap where I never saw it.

26

can't see with the benefit of hindsight.

I mean the key point is he didn't see it.

Well, I think, you know, with the

So my understanding, with the

So it's very difficult to

So I

27
28

Could I deal with that hindsight point, just while

29

we're on it, generally?
105

 1

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

2

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

The three points.

3

benefit of hindsight should I have attended the event

4

at all?

5

that this was other than the purely social and

6

recreational event, similar to the Bar Council

7

Chairman's dinner, or a benching when judges and

8

politicians mix socially.

9

hadn't have checked with the Chief Justice, with the

With the

There's nothing I've learnt since to suggest

So the one thing, if I

10

benefit of hindsight I would say that I ought to have

11

taken that precaution.

12

think the benefit of hindsight will hope me.

13

hope that when the Judicial Council looks at this - and

14

they will be the ones who will have to decide it - I

15

hope they still allow for the possibility of people

16

going and playing in the Oireachtas Golf Society

17

dinner.

18

there'll be contrary views.

19

not appropriate and we'll have to argue it out.

But seeing as I did, I don't
And I

I'll be an advocate for that position, but
Some people may think it's

20
21

But where does that stop?

Where does that stop?

Is

22

that the end of the Chairman's dinners, the end of

23

benchings?

24

difference between a member of Royal Dublin Golf Club

25

being in a four-ball with a politician in his club?

26

You know?

27

Judge, I think.

28

the future --

29

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Is it the end of a person -- what's the

But anyway, that's another day's work,
That's not my immediate problem what

Well that, I mean what -- we're
106

 1

discussing hindsight now and so the first thing is

2

should you have attended the event?

3

well I got the CJ's agreement, consent.

4

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

5

that, with the benefit of hindsight I would say perhaps

6

I should have.

7

overall with the benefit of hindsight -- I'll slow down

8

a little bit, sorry.

9

point me to something that has emerged since that says

Not just that.

And you've said

If I hadn't done

But I don't think there's anything

I mean, I don't know can anybody

10

that this was, you know, a political event?

You know,

11

judges go to conferences at times and there are

12

platforms where political events -- a judge might write

13

a book which trespasses a little bit into the political

14

arena and not just politics.

15

judge asked me about the propriety of that and I think

16

he may have discussed it with you as well, Judge.

17

I'm conscious of lines and spectrums.

18

-- I personally think this is on the side of the social

19

and recreational and not the political.

20

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

21

you don't think -- do you think it would have been

22

prudent to have left the dinner, at any stage,

23

especially when the panel was removed.

24

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I'll just take them in sequence.

25

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

26

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

The second one, with the benefit

27

of hindsight should I have accepted the invitation to

28

dinner?

29

throw up?

As Attorney General a

So

I think this is

And bearing all of that in mind,

Again, what does the benefit of hindsight
What valid reason does it throw up that I
107

 1

should not have accepted the invitation, other than I

2

think the extreme position that going to any event,

3

since Ireland sought to reopen, brings some risk that

4

the organisers might not fully comply with the

5

Regulations and the Guidelines.

6

like, and you don't have to make a conclusive

7

determination on this, but all of the evidence suggests

8

that they did and all the lies in the media, he first

9

paragraph, that people knowingly attended, too many

But (a), it looks

10

people, is one of the biggest lies we've ever had in

11

these kind of, whatever phrase you want to use, you

12

know, somebody called it a national act of

13

self-destruction, one commentator said last Friday.

14
15

But going back to the point about some risk, with the

16

benefit of hindsight there might be some risk that you

17

put yourself in that the organisers may not fully

18

comply.

19

organisers of this society because of their positions

20

and experience and experience in the trade.

21

Donie Cassidy is a very successful hotelier and

22

businessman.

23

the media I think, take up that position that you

24

shouldn't go to anything because of that risk, that

25

would be contrary to Government policy at the time, the

26

national mood and the economic imperative of hotels

27

getting business.

28

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And what about as a judge?

29

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

The same as a judge.

I had very good reasons for relying upon the

And if people now, as they have done in

108

In this

 1

sense you're an ordinary citizen going to a social and

2

recreational event.

3

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

4

We'll come back maybe to that?

5

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

6

I think you are.

7

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

8

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

If everybody suddenly decided that

9

day they weren't going to go, there's some extreme,

Well, are you an ordinary citizen?

Because of the nature of the event

10

there's some slight risk, does the hotel give the money

11

back and lay off people?

12

for the dinner?

13

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

14

free to leave the dinner at any time, if anything had

15

concerned you, for example, you saw staff moving in and

16

out of an opening or the panel being opened?

17

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

18

moving in and out of an opening would have sparked off

19

concern.

20

and what was behind the opening.

21

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

22

you?

23

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

24

that, about what is there with the benefit of hindsight

25

that I should have left the hotel in the light of the

26

situation prevailing?

27

appears to be the big lie that there were 80 people at

28

the dinner and that I and others knew that.

29

the benefit of hindsight help me or any other guest

Does the hotel keep the money

Like what's -Well, do you accept that you were

Well, I don't see how seeing staff

You have to know where they were coming from

And what about the panel behind

Never saw it.

109

So can I address

Now, the situation prevailing

How does

 1

there where I never saw the panel being pulled back?

2

So it's difficult to see how the benefit of hindsight

3

can operate.

4

hindsight based upon the facts as you knew them at the

5

time.

6

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Well --

7

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Can I just make --

8

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

9

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Can I make another point?

You can only have the benefit of

No, go ahead, finish.
I'll

10

try and stay came about it, because this is upsetting.

11

With the benefit of hindsight of course I would not

12

have gone to the dinner because of the vilification

13

that I have suffered in the media since and the

14

complete lack of fair procedures by the media and

15

numerous politicians, including

16

And I would not have inflicted that unjust attack on my

17

good name, on myself, my family, my friends, my

18

colleagues, and the judiciary.

19

media and politicians that don't know any of the facts

20

and they have shown no interest in knowing them.

21

other than this forum, Judge, I'm grateful to you --

22

can I just make this comment.

23

regard myself as a part of a elite, the way the media

24

describe it, that is above the law or above guidelines?

25

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

26

either.

27

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

28

that judges have no less constitutional rights than

29

anybody else and have a right to fair procedures and

.

And this prejudgment by

And

As a judge I don't

I don't thing most judges do

No.

110

But what I do insist upon is

 1

have a right to their good name.

And if not, Judge --

2

I did a lot of work as Attorney General trying to

3

persuade people to become judges and I think people

4

have said I've had some success getting good quality of

5

people, if not nobody would become a judge ever again

6

if there's not a fair and reasonable assessment of what

7

went on here.

8

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

9

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And I am relying on you, Judge.

10

The Constitution says the State will vindicate your own

11

good name and unfortunately, even though you've retired

12

I'm relying upon you, Judge, to vindicate my good name.

13

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Well now, let's just keep going.

14

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

15

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

The next thing I just wanted to

16

just confirm was your apology --

17

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

18

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

-- which you made on 21st August.

19

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

20

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Now I have it before me, there's

21

no reason to read it out.

22

unintentional breach of the new guidelines on my

23

behalf.

24

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

25

Judge.

26

solicitor getting the exact text.

27

could we just have an exact final text?

28

that.

29

reading the same document.

But you apologised for your

Could I stop you for one minute,

I found it difficult getting yesterday with my
I have a draft but
A copy of

I just want to be careful, Judge, that we're

111

 1

MR. MURPHY:

Perhaps, Judge, I could show this to

2

Mr. Collins first.

3

it to Mr. Collins first.

4

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

5

draft.

6

MR. COLLINS:

7

MR. MURPHY:

8

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

9

MR. MURPHY:

This is a typed version, if I show

I have what I think was the final

That's fine.
Please take a minute.
Can you just give me a moment?

If you want two minutes or five minutes.

10

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No, I'll be quick.

Thanks.

11

Sorry, Judge.

12

it?

13

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes, do.

14

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So going to bed on Thursday night

15

I had driven back, another very long drive back up to

16

northeast Donegal and before I went to bed that night I

17

was back to my news addiction and I flicked on the news

18

headlines on, I know I shouldn't, on The Examiner

19

newspaper and I was astonished to see that they had as

20

a lead story something about Dara Calleary attending a

21

golf dinner and I said, 'this is the greatest load of

22

rubbish ever now.'

23

had they mentioned my attendance or anybody else, but

24

they had a breaking story that Dara Calleary attended a

25

dinner.

26

they're really scraping the barrel here during the

27

silly season in August.'

28

morning and I think the phrase is, I was absolutely

29

dumbfounded to hear that Minister Calleary had resigned

Can I explain to you the background to

I don't know, on the Thursday night

I thought nothing of.

112

I thought, 'Jesus,

But then I woke up the next

 1

or been forced to resign by the Taoiseach, on account

2

of him having attending the dinner.

3

summary dismissal kind of atmosphere that he had done

4

something terribly wrong.

5

dumbfounded and shocked.

6

breaches of the Regulations or Guidelines at that

7

stage.

8

Dara Calleary resigning and I was astonished.

9

to rack my brain, you know, 'God, was there something

10

And it was a

And I was absolutely
So I hadn't been aware of any

I still hadn't when I saw the news of

here that I've missed?

I tried

What are they talking about?'

11
12

I think the key thing in the media that the media were

13

pressing was that there had been a new rule that the

14

number had gone from 50 to six and I was astonished by

15

that.

16

clearly, I can go through it in a moment, I would have

17

known that that couldn't really happen.

18

explain how this works?

I was amazed at it.

If I had time to think

Can I just

19
20

NPHET come up with recommendations - and I was at

21

Cabinet for some of this.

22

recommendations.

23

to a Cabinet committee which consider them.

24

the recommendations can end up as statutory instrument

25

rule, say the rule about 50, far more end up as

26

guidelines, guidance, protocol, advice, whatever you

27

want to call it.

28

would be similar guidelines or whatever for big stores

29

like Ikea opening up, for the building trade opening

So NPHET produce

The recommendations then usually go

And these are not unique.

113

Some of

So there

 1

up, right.

We'd have no involvement in those, we'd

2

have involvement in just the statutory instrument.

3

the Cabinet decide we're going to adopt these

4

restrictions.

5

immediately because they have to translated into what

6

bit of it is in SI, what bit of it is in guidelines and

7

what bit of it is in neither, that it's just kind of a

8

good idea by NPHET?

9

distancing thing about two metres was largely only ever

But

The restrictions cannot come into effect

For instance, the social

10

advice because it was regarded as being too impossible

11

of, you know, enforcement.

12

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

13

Government announcement.

14

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No, we'll go back a little bit.

15

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Right, okay.

16

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

This is the way it works and I was

17

part of previous ones.

18

So earlier in the week in NPHET, perhaps as late as

19

Thursday, and there were a lot of complaints about

20

things being done in too much of a hurry and staff very

21

unhappy about the pressures and all of that.

22

the NPHET thing would only come out on a Tuesday.

23

There would be a Cabinet committee meeting to filter

24

that before it went to Cabinet.

25

memo for Government, like any Government decision,

26

which explains what it is the Government want to do.

27

And the memo for the Government in the first paragraph

28

would set out the proposed Government decision that

29

either the Minister or the Taoiseach was asking the

So what you have first of all is a

114

We used to meet on a Friday.

But maybe

There'd have to be a

 1

Government to do this.

My understanding is now, and

2

from what I've heard and everything that I've read,

3

there was mass confusion, if not chaos in Government

4

this week.

5

on holidays, the Attorney General perhaps in Kerry or

6

wherever on holidays.

7

thing is the Secretary General to the Department of An

8

Taoiseach.

9

are not elected ministers are the Secretary General to

And you've got to factor in August, people

The other key man in the whole

The only two people that go to Cabinet that

10

the Taoiseach, who writes up the minutes and records

11

what the decision is, sat to my right, he sat next to

12

the Taoiseach and I sat two places from the Taoiseach

13

as Attorney General.

14

decision, if they made one - I haven't seen the text of

15

the Government decision - I doubt if the memo for

16

Government asked them for such a rule to come in with

17

immediate effect because that would have been treated

18

with shock, if they had circulated the memo.

19

proper procedure is the memo should go in on a Friday,

20

be circulated, another department can go back and say,

21

if something like that was in it, 'this is crazy, it

22

can't happen, it's never been done before.'

23

have been the reaction, I think, of my officials, if it

24

had been done properly.

25

recall the Taoiseach's phrase, or the Tánaiste's phrase

26

- everybody falls into that mistake now - "if we keep

27

on governing like this we won't be governing very

28

long."

29

headlines that they had failed to filter it through the

Now, when the Government

So the

That would

But I understand, you'll

I did pick up that in the general news

115

 1

Cabinet committee, they had gone straight to Cabinet on

2

Tuesday.

3

they only got it on the table, it wasn't circulated, or

4

they'd no time for their officials to brief them and I

5

suspect what may have happened is that it's a new

6

Taoiseach, it's a new Minister for Health, that this

7

thing about immediate was effect was said the press

8

conference, I can't be sure of this now but I suspect

9

it was said at the press conference -- usually the

I suspect, although I can't prove this, that

10

Taoiseach and maybe the Tánaiste and maybe the Chief

11

Medical Officer give a press conference after the

12

Cabinet meeting.

13

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

14

of the public, the public and we've actually touched on

15

this with Mr. Collins, I mean the public hear about it

16

on the 18th.

17

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes, on the Tuesday night.

18

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

On the Tuesday night.

19

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

20

issue an actual announcement, I don't know, you can

21

maybe get a copy of that on the website.

22

been able to find it.

23

anything about immediate effect, but can I make the

24

point, Judge, they had to withdraw from that on

25

Wednesday morning and you have those documents in the

26

engineer's report, because it's not capable of coming

27

into operation with immediate effect.

28

to go into an SI.

29

like, it shows the chaos and confusion, even if they

But I mean from the point of view

The Government announcement.

The Government normally

I haven't

I don't know if that said

Some of it has

For instance and don't forget this,

116

 1

wanted to bring in a rule about six with immediate

2

effect, they couldn't do it until the minister amended

3

the statutory instrument and signed it.

4

no hope of that.

5

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

6

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And those statutory instruments

7

were done in the Attorney General's Office.

8

were.

9

had to be a process.

Many aren't.

So there was

Those

So after the Tuesday night there
And like you've seen these

10

guidelines, where are they?

Like they're not just, you

11

know, on the back of a cigarette packet, there are

12

several pages of it.

13

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

14

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So these had to be changed.

15

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

16

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No matter what was said and even

17

if was reported, and I didn't hear the reports, even if

18

it was reported that they were changing the rules from

19

50 to six it couldn't happen automatically.

20

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

21

the impression was that Tuesday night Government

22

announces 50 to six and then everything takes off.

23

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

24

forced out on a false premise on the Thursday morning,

25

it may well have been.

26

enough -- look, we won't speculate.

27

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

28

MR. COLLINS:

29

why did you make the apology, as you did?

But unfortunately for everybody,

And perhaps Minister Calleary was

Unless they feel that it's

No.

You were asked about the apology, Séamus,

117

 1

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Okay.

But all this is relevant

2

because there's a keyword -- sorry, I'll just say first

3

of all I was dumbfounded.

4

think of any breaches by me except I thought, look,

5

like anybody, maybe I didn't social distance a hundred

6

percent perfectly all through the night, which I think

7

probably applies to us all if we go to any gathering or

8

family event.

9

initially.

What did I do?

I couldn't

And that's all I could think of

10
11

However, I spoke to one or two people and I decided I

12

would make an apology because one or two other people

13

had apologies, for any unintentional breach of any

14

guidelines on my part.

15

doing it because I wasn't sure what I was apologising

16

for, but if was there any unintentional breach, for

17

instance, if the number was six and I hadn't known it,

18

as was being presented.

19

interesting is - and I've only noticed this yesterday

20

when I went back to the apology - the fact that I said

21

"do apologise for any unintentional breach of any of

22

the new guidelines on my part."

23

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

24

absolutely.

25

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

26

of course, if I thought it through -- again, I was

27

getting journalists ringing me texting me, people

28

calling for me to resign before they knew any of the

29

facts on that Friday morning.

Now, I was a bit hesitant about

And I think what's very

That's right.

I picked that up,

I didn't notice that, Judge.

118

And

Of course if I thought

 1

it through I would have known that the Guidelines, it's

2

the Regulation that, you know, that applies.

3

course in a way -- the Regulation, as you probably

4

know, it took them two weeks to change it then so.

5

was only on 31st August that they changed it.

6

impression that it was a tight six of course is not

7

correct either.

8

be 50 but groups of six.

9

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

10

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

So there's so much

11

misrepresentation and false reporting all around.

12

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

13

it's for unintentional breach of any of the new

14

guidelines on your part and you expressed regret and

15

you unreservedly apologised.

16

important part of the picture.

17

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

18

maintain that position.

19

there was intentional breach on my part I obviously

20

apologise, still apologise and apologise again.

21

is fair to say that it appears now, objectively, that

22

there was no breach by the organisers, let alone by me.

23

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

But there's no harm in an apology.

24

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No, of course.

25

sincerely meant at the time.

26

appalled, and absolutely appalled that I might have

27

been, even you want to call it an innocent partaker or

28

participant, or present at a breach by somebody else.

29

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

It's groups of six.

And of

It

And the

So it could still

No, I understand your apology and

So I mean that's an

Can I just say, Judge, you know I
If it still is the case that

Yes.
119

But it

And it was

I was shocked and

 1

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And I was probably to some extent

2

in a state of shock on that Friday morning.

3

apology was genuine and I repeat it here again, for the

4

record, for the transcript that if there was any

5

unintentional breach on my part, which I'm not clear if

6

there was.

7

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

8

So now let me just retrace back just to cover another

9

area.

No, no.

But the

Well I understand that.

10
11

You took the Declaration before the Supreme Court

12

before the Chief Justice which is of course a very

13

solemn declaration, and you became a judge of the

14

Supreme Court?

15

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

16

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Now, you have talked about the

17

documents you were given by the Court Service?

18

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

19

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Were you given any documents

20

regarding judicial conducts and ethics by the Court?

21

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No.

22

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Or by AJI?

23

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No.

24

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Have you ever read a judicial code

25

of conduct or a guide to judicial ethics?

26

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

27

documents that Mr. Collins has handed up.

28

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

29

Declaration day --

You know, parts of some of the

Before, I'm talking about on your

120

 1

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No.

2

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

-- or immediately afterwards.

3

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No.

4

that August/September I was going to have time,

5

September really to read some of that and stuff about

6

the Supreme Court generally and procedure and all of

7

that.

8

have any reserved judgments to do in September but I

9

had offered -- the Chief Justice asked me would I sit

10

in the Court of Appeal in September to help clear the

11

backlog and Judge Birmingham had asked me before this,

12

and I had said to the Chief Justice more than that, I

13

would be happy to drop down and sit as a High Court

14

Judge for three weeks to help clear the Covid backlog

15

in the Judicial Review/Non-Jury List and unfortunately

16

this has prevent me from doing that.

17

in the newspapers some student had wanted to bring a

18

case and Judge Meenan said there was no judges.

19

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

20

told of any introductory programme for new judges?

21

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No.

22

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Now, as an eminent lawyer you must

23

have realised that there are restrictions on judges?

24

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

In a broad sense, yes.

25

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

In a broad sense.

26

be -- originally they were much, much more strict than

27

they are now.

28

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

29

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

I mean originally the idea was

Like I was in the mindset

I was going to spend time.

I wasn't going to

And I did notice

Oh, yes, it's a problem.

121

Were you

I mean they can

 1

that essentially you couldn't communicate, go to

2

community events at all and we have some wonderful

3

quotes which I won't put on the record here, in a

4

document about what in the 1920s was the position of

5

judges.

6

scrutiny, for example, I'm just looking at the Canadian

7

Ethics where they say:

Today a judge's conduct is still subject to

8
9

"A judge's conduct (both in and out of court) is bound

10

to be the subject of public scrutiny and comment.

11

Judges must therefore accept some restriction on their

12

activities, even activities that would not elicit at

13

first notice if carried out by other members of the

14

community.

15

and the requirements of judicial office and the

16

legitimate plans of a judge's personal life,

17

development and family."

Judges need to strike a delicate balance

18
19

Bearing that kind of code in mind, if you had been told

20

about it, would you have had any second thoughts about

21

asking the Chief Justice could you go to the golf

22

classic?

23

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

24

thought about it would have encouraged me to ask the

25

Chief Justice to check, but I would have felt it was on

26

the right side of the line for the reasons I've already

27

state and I won't repeat them all.

28

point?

29

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

I think if I'd read that or

Yes.
122

Can I make this

 1

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

That perhaps I was even better

2

placed than, you were very kind to say eminent lawyer,

3

but we'll say experienced lawyer than most, having been

4

Attorney General and having been, you know, in the

5

middle and see, you know, both sides in a way.

6

mentioned earlier an experience which I think we maybe

7

both had with a judge who was considering was what he

8

was doing on the right side of the line or not and he

9

came to me I think after speaking to you as to what was

And I

10

appropriate or not.

And my answer to him was I

11

couldn't give him a complete answer.

12

to legal matters fine, but if it ventured into

13

political arena or policy matters, he was endangering

14

his territory.

15

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

16

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

The book has come out since.

17

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes, it has indeed.

18

general idea of, I'm looking at the Guide to Judicial

19

Conduct from the Australian Institute of Judicial

20

Administration Incorporated, it's one of the leading

21

exams around the world and under 6.10 "Social and

22

Recreational Activities":

If the book stuck

Just in this

23
24

"There is such a wide range of social and recreational

25

activities in which a judge may wish to engage that it

26

is not possible to do more than suggest some

27

guidelines.

28

the community may regard a judge's participation in

29

certain activities inappropriate.

Judges should themselves assess whether

123

In cases of doubt it

 1

is better to err on the side of caution and judges

2

generally will be anxious and careful to guard their

3

own reputation."

4
5

And then they give a whole list of, some of which

6

Mr. Collins referred to.

7

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

8

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Now, if you had had the benefit of

9

reading the Australian, would that have made any

10

difference to your decision to first of all ask the

11

Chief Justice?

12

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

13

cases of doubt, and I had some small doubt and that was

14

the reason for asking the Chief Justice.

15

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

16

Mr. Collins said.

17

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Of course.

18

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

It's often not the act it's the

19

perception of the consequences from being at a

20

particular place.

21

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Can I just say something else?

22

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes.

23

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

The fact that last year at the

24

event I played with a particular former politician and

25

then I met a serving judge who was at the event, I

26

think that had some impact on me that this seemed to

27

be, there was some precedent for it.

28

deeply about it but I think subconsciously that made

29

they made me think this is probably -- a serving judge

I don't think so.

I think in

Perception is so important, as

124

I didn't think

 1

and a retired judge were both at it and I've since

2

learned that several judges have played over the years.

3

And I got a message from one over the weekend saying

4

nobody batted an eyelid and he thinks the separation of

5

powers argument is ridiculous is the only way I can

6

describe it.

7

recreational event.

8

get people into trouble here --

9

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Oh, no, don't.

10

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

-- to encounter what I have

11

encountered, but I'm talking about now several judges

12

apparently have played in it.

13

me.

14

the fact that they played in it.

15

certain amount, even though I didn't know it at the

16

time, but it goes to the understanding that this was a

17

social and recreational event and it was very much at

18

the bottom of the tree, in the same place as the

19

Chairman's dinner and the benchings.

20

MR. COLLINS:

21

might?

22

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

23

MR. COLLINS:

24

in from the Canadian Judicial Council and just on page

25

21 under the heading "Adopt an irreproachable conduct

26

outside the courtroom", and they say:

That it's a purely social and
I don't want to name people and

The organisers have told

And some of the judges themselves have volunteered
So that says a

Can I add something to that, Judge, if I

Yes.

I'm reading from that document I handed

27
28

"Judges must show respect for the law in their private

29

life.

As well, a judge must behave in public in a
125

 1

manner that fosters respect for the judiciary.

Judges

2

are not expected to be hermits and are entitled to

3

enjoy life with their friends and families.

4

they must be wary of socialising or associating with

5

anyone connected with the cases that come before them."

However,

6
7

I suppose it's really I point I've made before, there

8

had to be some level of connection --

9

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Oh yes.

10

MR. COLLINS:

-- with the potential to exercise the

11

judicial function for even to trigger this level of

12

scrutiny or some level of scrutiny.

13

wanted to add.

14

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

15

touched on before, a factor has been the media coverage

16

and then the events like Dara Calleary apologising and

17

resigning and Jerry Buttimer apologising and resigning

18

and the Whip being removed from a series of senators,

19

and Donie Cassidy resigning from Vice-President of

20

Fianna Fáil, that has put a sort of prism on the event

21

which has brought up a great deal of press media at the

22

time.

23

afterwards.

24

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

25

what I would describe as the throwing a tank of petrol

26

on a small flame by forcing Dara Calleary to resign

27

summarily without any chance to check the facts on

28

Thursday morning that seems to have ignited the whole

29

maelstrom.

That's all I

I think probably, as we have

In other words the reaction immediately

Yes.

It seems to have been the,

You know, if he'd have been given -- I
126

 1

can't understand for the life of me, okay, you can't

2

solve this, Judge, and I can't, but why that poor man

3

was not given at least 24 hours.

4

not mean anything?

5

constitutional rights?

6

people, Judge, and it's a bit rhetorical, but if you

7

don't mind indulging me for a couple of minutes.

Does our Constitution

Are politicians totally devoid of
I made this point to a few

8
9

In my first lecture ever - I remember it very clearly -

10

in Trinity College, Dublin, October 1980,

11

constitutional law, Prof. Robert Heuston and it stuck

12

with me forever as a student and a lawyer and now a

13

judge hopefully, he said to us in whatever theatre it

14

was, 60 of us, he said: "The most important principles

15

that you're going to hear in the next four years are

16

rule of law."

17

two factors, one is nemo judex in causa, cauda sui and

18

the second one, even more important is audi alteram

19

partem."

20

any dispute -- in dealings with people, if you ever

21

become a lawyer, you wait and you hear the other side.

22

I'm lucky that I've had this process to do that.

23

it's... look, what can I say?

24

MR. COLLINS:

25

impact.

26

notion that 80 people were in a room having dinner

27

together which, if it were true, would have been an

28

obvious breach of the guidelines and people said,

29

'well, how can people in positions of responsibility

He said:

"The rule of law consists of

You do not prejudge people.

You always, in

Now,

Can I just add two things about the media

One is that much of it was sparked by the

127

 1

stand over doing that?'

And hence the calls for

2

resignation, including Judge Woulfe's resignation.

3

that just wasn't the factually correct thing.

4

other point is, in terms of assessing - and I've made

5

this point earlier - in terms of assessing

6

Judge Woulfe's conduct the one thing we can't do, and I

7

may respectfully say your views cannot be informed by

8

the feeling of the populist view, particularly one

9

based on an incorrect premise, as to why politicians

And

But the

10

should resign.

I mean politicians frequently will bend

11

with the wind because they have a political electorate,

12

they want to get elected, they want to keep a

13

popularity, stakes and so on.

14

popularity business because they're not elected in this

15

jurisdiction, and it is really important that they are

16

not assessed or judged by reference to the way

17

politicians see their own self-interest in why they

18

have to take certain steps in a political maelstrom

19

when, affecting a judge and his or her position is a

20

totally different position and with huge constitutional

21

dimensions.

22

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Absolutely.

23

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Just for completeness, I know

24

we're probably finished, can I just add that I feel

25

terribly sorry for the people who organised this event.

26

They did it in good faith, they meant no harm and

27

they've been absolutely pilloried as if they're

28

responsible for something appalling and dreadful.

29

also feel sorry for some of the unfortunate politicians
128

Judges aren't in the

I understand.

I

 1

who feel the need to confess to a crime they may not

2

have committed, or don't know whether they committed or

3

not, but feel that the media torture and the opprobrium

4

from their community resulting from it is too great to

5

fight their corner in any way, or bother trying to

6

establish the true facts.

7

sent me a text yesterday wishing me well but saying

8

"I'm broken".

9

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

10

And one of those individuals

Just a couple of little points, a

couple of points.

11
12

Do you accept, from your assessment of the media, which

13

we've been discussing, that we have a huge public

14

controversy that has arisen in this area?

15

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

16

to be completely fake, overblown.

17

starts off "attended a dinner of 80 people".

Virtually

18

every paragraph of media coverage says that.

If

19

they're having an interview with Joe Duffy about his

20

life they throw in a question, 'isn't it appalling what

21

those people did in Clifden?'

22

I've read, I've gone back to the Sunday newspapers.

23

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

24

reality is we have a huge public controversy.

25

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

26

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And do you accept that your

27

presence at the dinner may have created a public

28

controversy which could have adversely affected the

29

Supreme Court?

Yes, it but it looks objectively
Every paragraph

Virtually every article

Stop reading them.

129

I mean the

 1

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Can you ask that question again?

2

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Well, it's really -- you accept

3

that there is a huge public controversy --

4

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Yes.

5

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

-- which has arisen from the

6

dinner and do you accept that your presence at the

7

dinner may have created a public controversy which

8

could adversely affected the Supreme Court?

9

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Okay, that's a difficult question.

10

In one sense I suppose that is so, that for the media

11

to also have the chance to bring down a judge adds an

12

extra fuel to the fire and it did add to the

13

controversy that I was there.

14

there was no valid reason why I shouldn't have been

15

there.

16

subjective sense and in that sense could be seen as,

17

you know, bringing the Supreme Court into controversy.

18

But objectively I think it's more damaging to the

19

Supreme Court if they allow some sort of theoretical

20

damage to the institution prevail over hounding a judge

21

out of office for no valid reason.

22

that the Supreme Court didn't prejudge the matter in

23

the way that so many other people did.

24

they didn't and they'll have your report to actually

25

outline the true facts.

Even if objectively

But taking the world we live in in the more

And I would hope

I would hope

26
27

Unfortunately I think even judges are not above

28

prejudging, Judge, and in this mood of hysteria I can't

29

be sure that even some of my colleagues have prejudged
130

 1

me.

2

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

3

context and the context is the pandemic, where you have

4

six months of not going to christenings, not holding

5

weddings, not being able to go to your family's

6

funerals.

7

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Of course.

8

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

And a pent-up session in the

9

country.

I think also, do you accept the

10

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Of course.

This was a very

11

unfortunate set of circumstances and unfortunate

12

timing.

13

media with what appeared to be a flagrant breach of the

14

Regulations and the Guidelines was like letting off a

15

bomb.

16

MR. COLLINS:

17

perfectly understandable how people reacted the way

18

they did when it was painted in the way that it was.

19

It wasn't really Judge Woulfe's presence at the dinner

20

in itself that was the problem, because if the matter

21

had been explained properly and factually correctly and

22

so on there would be unlikely to be anything like the

23

same reaction to it.

24

understandably immensely annoyed at a version of events

25

as if people in positions of responsibility were

26

disregarding their public obligations to both obey the

27

law and follow guidance and so forth at a time of

28

public crisis and understandably people would be

29

extremely angry if they thought that other responsible

And for those people to be presented by the

Isn't that key point?

Because it's

The problem was that people got

131

 1

people weren't doing that.

But that's not actually a

2

fair criticism to make of Judge Woulfe and he had no

3

reason to think, when he was attending, or decided to

4

go to the golf event and attend the dinner, that

5

anything like this was going to happen.

6

unfortunate insofar as it adversely affects the Supreme

7

Court, but it is actually hard to think to attribute

8

some sort of responsibility, let alone any misconduct

9

to Judge Woulfe in a decision to go to the dinner.

So it's very

10

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Let me just --

11

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

Have I answered that enough about

12

adversely affecting the judiciary?

13

anything about completely false reporting that fails to

14

check out the facts and that boasts about the fact that

15

they had a scoop and they got rid of the Minister and

16

says the next is the commissioner and the next is the

17

judge and everybody's got to resign.

18

makes no effort.

19

who I had to check some details with, he told me that

20

nobody in a senior position has ever asked him for the

21

facts.

22

asked him for an account of the facts.

23

that worries me is my understanding is that as of last

24

week one of the organisers told me that the Tánaiste at

25

a meeting was insisting that the relevant rule was six

26

people on that Wednesday night and that's why

27

Minister Calleary was forced to resign.

28

Governments themselves don't understand, or if the

29

Attorney General can't explain it to them, I'm sure

I mean I can't do

And along the way

Donie Cassidy, one of the organisers

Nobody in Government.

132

The Taoiseach never
And one thing

I mean if the

 1

he's trying hard, what hope have we got?

2

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

3

questions in relation to this section of our

4

discussion.

5

desirable?

6

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

7

a process and I'll take part in the Judicial Council if

8

I'm let, trying to work out guidance and so on.

9

very important, I think, for a judge, if anybody faces

Just to go back to my first

Would you agree that guidelines would be

Absolutely.

And I wish there was

It's

10

the kind of queries I faced and will do that there's

11

some process where somebody can give a ruling for them

12

in advance.

13

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

14

told that you would do a week's course introduction?

15

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

No, nothing, zero.

16

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

That's something you find in other

17

jurisdictions.

18

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

19

had that week fairly free at the end of July so it's a

20

pity there wasn't, other than all the bureaucracy

21

you've to go through when you become judge to try and

22

get paid.

23

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

24

else you wish to add?

25

MR. MURPHY:

26

minutes to have a discussion to see if there is

27

anything else you want to say and we'll leave the room.

28

I think it would be appropriate to do that.

29

MR. COLLINS:

And also I touched upon were you

It sounds like a great idea.

Absolutely.

I

Is there anything

Would it be helpful to you to have five

We will take five minutes.
133

 1

MR. MURPHY:

2

MR. COLLINS:

Or ten, if you wish.
Fine.

3
4

THE MEETING ADJOURNED BRIEFLY AND RESUMED AS FOLLOWS:

5
6

MR. COLLINS:

Thank you very much, Judge.

I think

7

we've said everything really that we need to say in

8

relation to it.

9

the very end is where I started, which is you've got

I suppose the only point I'd make at

10

that statutory test in the Act.

That's a test for

11

misconduct and that can be misconduct, whether it leads

12

to, at the most serious level a removal of a judge or

13

misconduct that leads to a quiet word with a judge

14

saying you should to this, that or the other.

15

way, no matter how trivial or serious it is, it still

16

has to meet those requirements in the Act.

17

requirements in the Act in turn I think devolve around,

18

in this, case appearance of propriety and it's hard to

19

put an analytical framework on that.

20

epitomised the judicial function as an educated reflex

21

to facts and there's a bit of that about assessing the

22

propriety of a judge.

23

where you look at each stage of the day, where

24

certainly from the separation of powers point nothing

25

changed during the day.

26

golf or he decides he's going to eat with four people

27

over a sandwich or sit at a table to have dinner with

28

them, the separation of powers point is common to all

29

of that.

Either

Those

Lord Goff once

But I think in circumstances

I mean whether he's playing

Nothing changes in the calculus of how you
134

 1

assess the separation of powers issue.

Either it's

2

fine to go to the event or it's not fine to go to the

3

event but I don't think that changes during the day.

4
5

And from a Covid perspective, again he made the

6

appropriate enquiries.

7

him to do.

8

of Health watchdog armed with inch tapes and walking

9

around the hotel and measuring distances, and so forth.

10

It does seem that the only question mark you might have

11

over the event is the opening of the gap at the end, I

12

think to allow the loud speakers, in effect, to be

13

heard in the other room.

14

that that was so.

15

immediately behind it.

16

should he have done?

17

so, which would have meant he would have left ten

18

minutes later perhaps, or some minutes earlier than he

19

actually did because he was the end of the evening

20

anyhow.

He did what you would expect

He can't be expected to become a Department

The reality is he didn't see

He was sitting with his back
And even if he had seen it what

Got up and left?

Let's assume

So it reason is a de minimis point.

21
22

So overall I do genuinely think that the answers to the

23

questions that have been posed to you, cannot be framed

24

in a way that is in any way critical of his conduct.

25

There may be case or is a case for guidelines and

26

introductory courses and so forth, and you've touched

27

on some of those, Judge, and some of that material is

28

discussed in some of the academic articles and in some

29

of the articles in the book.
135

 1
2

So that's all I think I wanted to say.

3

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

4

I'm very lucky to have his assistance.

5

were done in a mad rush, the statement and the

6

questions on a Monday but it's a funny kind of way in a

7

way to put it should he have?

8

mean?

9

is there a clear and very clear and valid reason why he

One final comment, Mr. Collins,
I know they

I mean what does that

In a way I think the true question seems to be

10

should not have?

That seems to me a fairer way to put

11

it because it sort of seems to just hang loose in the

12

air, the idea of should he have attended the golf event

13

without attending the dinner?

14

very ambiguous.

15

to go but not to attend the dinner or is it that it's a

16

separation of powers question?

17

that he should not have attended at all, leaving out

18

the dinner completely?

19

to, with respect, be ambiguous and overlapping.

20

that only one question number one and number three?

21

Number two is clear, should he have left the hotel, but

22

number one, should he have accepted the invitation to

23

dinner?

24

it number three is the general separation of powers

25

point.

26

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

27

approach is it chronologically in time.

28

the golf.

29

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

That third one seems

Is it that it's accepted it was okay

Is there a question

The first and the third seem

Is that the same as number three?

Is

I'm taking

In a way I think I may well
Invitation to

Separation of powers point if
136

 1

there is one.

2

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

3

then the business.

4

logical to take it chronologically.

5

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

That's the way I have done it.

6

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

Yes, exactly you have.

7

MR. COLLINS:

8

that little aide-memoire just we had on the statutory

9

instrument.

Yes.

Invitation to the dinner and

So I think it is probably more

As regards from here on, we'll give you

10

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

That would be lovely.

11

MR. COLLINS:

12

about the guidelines and the appendix and so forth.

13

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

14

MR. COLLINS:

15

it progressing from here?

16

MR. MURPHY:

17

I will have to reflect on all that has been said today,

18

there's been a lot said and that will have to be gone

19

through.

20

when the Judge comes to write and prepare a draft

21

report that will be circulated to you and we will just

22

if anything else needs to be dealt with.

23

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

24

timetable because I am in a sense now the Chief Justice

25

felt it better I didn't sit and I'd like to help my

26

colleagues as soon as I could.

27

timetable?

28

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

29

have some other things to do as well.

And I might just add in a little bit

Great.

And beyond that I don't know how you see

I think the position is that the judge and

I think previous correspondence has indicated

If there was any indication of

Have you any idea about

This is very tentative because I

137

But I would hope

 1

at the end of next week to be framing a draft and so

2

three weeks -- I think, subject to everything, say

3

three weeks from now I would hope to circulate a draft

4

to you and then if you wish you can either reply in a

5

statement or letter or we can have another meeting in

6

relation to it.

7

fourth week and therefore we'd hope to finalise the

8

whole thing by the fifth week, subject to problems.

9

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And that would therefore be in the

Sorry, Judge, when you say three

10

weeks' time, this is the week of the 7th, do you mean

11

that would be the week of the 28th?

12

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

13

fitting a few things in.

14

MR. MURPHY:

15

back.

16

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

17

It's important to me because I'm trying --

18

MR. MURPHY:

19

Judge to have even a few minutes to think about that.

20

Even if we came back to you tomorrow with that.

21

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

22

and I totally appreciate you taking on this task in

23

retirement with lots of other nicer things to do, but

24

the first day of term is Monday October 5th and it

25

would be very important for me to have this behind me

26

and be back fully at work with my colleagues on Monday,

27

5th October.

28

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

How many weeks is that from now?

29

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

That is four weeks from yesterday.

Let me now just think.

I'm

It might be possible for the Judge to come

Maybe if we go off the transcript.

I just think it would be important for the

If it were at all possible, Judge,

138

 1

And if it were at all possible for you to get the draft

2

report to us sooner we will turn it round by return

3

virtually, very, very quickly.

4

Chief Justice gets it and I would like this to be done

5

and dusted and in a position to resume work on that

6

first week of term where I have been provisionally

7

listed to deal with a case.

8

High Court colleagues during September so be it.

9

also it's quite difficult in the sort of limbo

And then, you know, the

Even if I can't help my
But

10

situation, I totally understand the pressures on you

11

and other commitments.

12

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

13

going to move it on as fast as I can.

14

of technical problems as well as a couple of events

15

that I have to deal with that I can't put off and I put

16

off a lot of them --

17

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I understand.

18

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

-- to give time to this.

19

think the most I could tell you at this stage is I will

20

do my very best to get it in a week before the 5th, to

21

get it to you a week before that.

22

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

23

28th September then?

24

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

I can't give you --

25

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

I understand, we won't hold you to

26

it.

27

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

I'll do my very best.

28

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

And that is still technically the

29

vacation all the way up to the following Monday, so

You can rest assured that I'm
I have a couple

So I

That's the week starting Monday

139

 1

perhaps everything could be completed that week.

2

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

3

luck we could complete it quickly and we will certainly

4

all be trying to complete it quickly.

5

MR. MURPHY:

6

as is necessary, to consider the very large amount --

7

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

8

question on procedure?

9

upon solely the materials that you received from us and

If we can get to that with any

I do think the Judge has to take the time,

Of course.

Could I ask one other

Are you now basing your view

10

today or are you proposing to contact anybody else?

11

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

12

materials that have been before us today and some of

13

your books, you haven't opened the material but the

14

authorities and things like that.

15

absolutely nobody else.

16

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE:

That's clear, thank you.

17

MS. JUSTICE DENHAM:

So there is no question of anybody

18

else.

19

MR. JUSTICE WOULFE: Thanks very much.

20

MR. COLLINS:

I am basing it solely on the

Absolutely nobody else.

Thank you very much indeed.

Thanks very much.

21
22

I am talking to

THE MEETING THEN CONCLUDED

23
24
25
26
27
28
29
140