00000 1 IN THE UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY COURT 2 FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF WISCONSIN 3 ______________________________________________________ 4 In re: ) Chapter 11 5 ARCHDIOCESE OF MILWAUKEE,) Case No. 11-20059-SVK 6 Debtor, ) Honorable Susan V Kelley 7 8 UNDER SEAL/CONFIDENTIAL 9 _______________________________________________________ 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 VIDEO DEPOSITION OF CARDINAL TIMOTHY M. DOLAN New York, New York February 20, 2012 1:30 p.m. to 5:21 p.m. 18 19 20 21 22 Kathy A. Halma Registered Professional Reporter 23 24 25 Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 1 00001 1 2 APPEARANCES JEFF ANDERSON & ASSOCIATES, PA, 366 3 Jackson Street, Suite 100, St. Paul, Minnesota, 55101, 4 by MR. JEFF ANDERSON and MR. MICHAEL G. FINNEGAN, 5 jeff@andersonadvocates.com and 6 mike@andersonadvocates.com, appeared on behalf o f the 7 Certain Personal Injury Claimants. 8 WHYTE HIRSCHBOECK DUDEK, S.C., 555 East 9 Wells Street, Suite 1900, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 53202, 10 by MR. FRANCIS H. LOCOCO, flococo@whdlaw.com, appeared 11 on behalf o f the Debtor. 12 ALSO PRESENT: MR. JERRY TOPCZEWSKI, 13 Milwaukee Archdiocese; and MR. JAMES P. McCABE, General 14 Counsel, Archdiocese o f New York. 15 INDEX 16 CARDINAL TIMOTHY J. DOLAN 17 By Mr. Anderson...................................... 3 18 By Mr. LoCoco.......................................133 19 By Mr. Anderson.................................... 136 20 EXHIBITS 21 No. 1 List o f Restricted Diocesan Priests due 22 to Substantiated Reports o f Sexual Abuse 23 o f a Minor.....................................93 24 25 Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 2 00002 1 (The original transcript was sent to Attorney LoCoco.) 2 3 (The original exhibit was retained by the court reporter and attached to the original transcript. A 4 copy was attached to all ordered copies.) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 3 00003 1 2 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS VIDEOTAPE TECHNICIAN: Here begins 3 Videotape No. 1, Volume I, in the deposition of 4 Cardinal Dolan in the matter of in re Archdiocese 5 o f Milwaukee. Today's date is February 20, 2013, 6 and the time is approximately 1:38. This 7 deposition is being held at the Offices of 8 Archdiocese Office on 1011 First, New York City. 9 My name the John Martucci with Pirozzi Reporting 10 and I'm the videographer. The court reporter is 11 Kathy A. Halma with Halma-Jilek. Please 12 introduce yourselves for the record, Counselor. 13 MR. ANDERSON: For the claimants, Jeff 14 Anderson. 15 MR. FINNEGAN: Also for the claimants, 16 Mike Finnegan. 17 MR. LO COCO: My name is Frank LoCoco. 18 1 represent the Archdiocese of Milwaukee and I 19 represent Cardinal Dolan. To my left is Jerry 20 Topczewski, who is my client representative from 21 the Archdiocese, and to his left is Jim McCabe 22 who's here. He's counselor for the Archdiocese 23 of New York. And this deposition was noticed up, 24 it's being taken pursuant to notice and under 25 seal pursuant to the confidentiality orders in Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 4 00004 1 the case. 2 CARDINAL TIMOTHY M. DOLAN, called as 3 a witness herein by the Claimants, after having 4 been first duly sworn, was examined and testified 5 as follows: 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. ANDERSON: 8 Q Cardinal, what was the date of your ordination? 9 A I was ordained a priest June 19, 1976. 10 Q And you then have been a priest for how many 11 years? 12 A Thirty six and one-half years. 13 Q And when you consider the various positions that 14 you have held as a Bishop, how many years in 15 total has that been? 16 A I was ordained a bishop on August 15, 2001, so 17 that's --that will be 12 years this August. 18 Q And you have now been Cardinal -- Actually, 19 Archbishop o f New York and Cardinal for a year? 20 A I have been a Cardinal for a year. I was named 21 Archbishop o f New York on February 23, 2009, and 22 then I became --Then I was named a Cardinal a 23 year ago on February --I'm having trouble with 24 the date o f that. It was a year ago. 25 MR. TOPCZEWSKI: February 18th. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 5 00005 1 BY MR. ANDERSON: 2 Q I have an installation o f Archbishop o f New York 3 o f April 15,'09. 4 A April 15, 2009 is when I was installed, yes. 5 Q Prior to your appointment to the position of 6 Archbishop o f Milwaukee, you had been a priest of 7 and Auxiliary Bishop at the Archdiocese o f St. 8 Louis, correct? 9 A 10 Q Right, right. According to the records I reviewed, it would 11 appear that you were appointed to be the 12 Archbishop o f Milwaukee on June 25, 2002? 13 A Correct. 14 Q And actually installed as Archbishop in Milwaukee 15 as o f August 28, 2002. Does that sound correct? 16 A Correct. 17 Q Between the time of your appointment to Milwaukee 18 and the actual installation, that two-month time 19 frame, what, if anything, did you do in order to 20 prepare for that position? 21 A To prepare to be Archbishop o f Milwaukee, you 22 mean? 23 Q Yes. 24 A Well, I was still Auxilliary Bishop in St. Louis, 25 so there was a lot o f work to be done, and I Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 6 00006 1 think in preparation there was spiritual 2 preparation, because I made a week's retreat, I 3 know that; I made two weeks vacation. But as far 4 as actual preparation to become Archbishop o f 5 Milwaukee, until I got there on the Sunday 6 before, probably --I mean, there was preparation 7 as far as the invitations, as far as the 8 invitation list, readings for the mass, that kind 9 o f stuff, but I think you meant more than that, 10 more preparation for the demands o f the office. 11 Not too much. 12 Q Is it correct to say that at the time that you 13 were actually installed in the Archdiocese o f 14 Milwaukee, that Bishop Sklba had been the 15 administrator? 16 A Bishop Sklba had been the administrator. 17 Q And his -- and the predecessor Archbishop had 18 been Weakland? 19 A Archbishop Rembrant Weakland. He had been 20 Archbishop. 21 Q Once you became the Archbishop o f Milwaukee and 22 after August of 2002, did you spend any time 23 face-to-face with Archbishop Weakland discussing 24 the affairs o f the Archdiocese o f Milwaukee and 25 how you could succeed in management of them? Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 7 00007 1 A No. I would have spent time with them, but it 2 would have been more social. As far as spending 3 time with them on business or on projects or on 4 initiatives, not too much, no, not that I can 5 recall. 6 Q How long had Bishop Sklba been the administrator 7 o f the Archdiocese as far as you know before your 8 installation as Archbishop? 9 A Sure. He, if I'm not mistaken, he would have 10 become administrator o f the Archdiocese o f 11 Milwaukee upon resignation o f Archbishop 12 Weakland, which I think, Jerry, came at the end 13 o f May o f 2 0 0 0 14 MR. LO COCO: You're just going to have 15 to do your best with your memory. 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. It would have been 17 from the end o f May 2002. So I can't chat with 18 anybody? You don't have life lines here? 19 MR. LO COCO: Unless he says you can 20 chat, no. 21 MR. ANDERSON: That's okay. Close 22 enough. 23 THE WITNESS: End o f May o f 2009 until I 24 was installed on August 27th, August 28th. 25 Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 8 00008 1 BY MR. ANDERSON: 2 Q Who did you rely upon most following your 3 installation to help understand the operations o f 4 the Archdiocese o f Milwaukee? 5 A Prior to? 6 Q No, once you became the Archbishop. 7 A Once I became the Archbishop, I would have relied 8 on a lot o f people. I mean, just corporately I 9 would have relied on the Priest Council, the 10 College o f Consultors, the Deans, the Pastoral 11 Council. I would have relied upon the Finance 12 Council. I would have relied upon the Vicar 13 General, who was with Bishop Sklba. I would have 14 relied heavily upon the Chancellor, Dr. Barbara 15 Anne Cusack. I found myself relying upon the 16 Vicar for Clergy, who was Dr. Father Homacek, 17 and I would come to rely very much on Jerry, who 18 was at the time Director o f Communications, Jerry 19 Topczewski. I should mention Wayne Schneider, 20 who was the Chief Financial Officer. He would 21 have been part o f it, too. 22 Q In terms of the problem o f sexual abuse by clergy 23 in the Archdiocese, and to the extent there was a 24 problem that preceded your installation, did you 25 know anything about how it had been dealt with Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 9 00009 1 prior to your installation? 2 MR. LO COCO: I just want to make sure 3 it's implicit in your question we're focused on 4 Milwaukee. 5 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, I am talking now 6 about your time in Milwaukee and what you may 7 have known before you became the Archbishop. 8 THE WITNESS: Do you mean --You mean, 9 Mr. Anderson, what I would have known about the 10 Archdiocese o f Milwaukee prior to me getting 11 there? 12 BY MR. ANDERSON: 13 Q That's right. 14 A No, I wouldn't know many specifics, unh-unh. 15 Q Okay. When you were the Vicar for Clergy in the 16 Archdiocese o f St. Louis and for a time as 17 Auxiliary Bishop, I think you identified yourself 18 as kind o f a point person as it pertained to 19 sexual abuse in the Archdiocese. Is that a fair 20 characterization? 21 MR. LO COCO: I'm going to object to the 22 form o f the question. It goes back to the point 23 I just made. We're here to talk about Milwaukee. 24 I'm going to let Cardinal Dolan respond to this 25 question, but we are not here to talk about St. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 10 00010 1 Louis, New York or any other place in specifics. 2 Go ahead. You can answer. 3 THE WITNESS: What was the question 4 again? 5 BY MR. ANDERSON: 6 Q Did you consider yourself a point person for the 7 Archbishop in dealing with sexual abuse in St. 8 Louis? 9 A That would --I would have been Vicar for Clergy, 10 so insofar as there was any clergy sexual abuse 11 of minors, I would have been his delegate or 12 liaison on that. 13 Q Once you became installed as Archbishop in 14 Milwaukee, tell us how and when you first 15 encountered the problem o f sexual abuse by 16 clerics in Milwaukee and your first experience in 17 that regard. 18 A Sure. Well, look, it's not going to surprise 19 anybody to know at the time that was the major 20 priority o f any Bishop in the United States. We 21 had, since it became a national tsunami on the 22 Feast o f the Epiphany in January o f 2002, that 23 was a major priority for the -- for any Bishop. 24 That was intensified in the summer meeting in 25 Dallas when we deliberated and passed what has Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 11 00011 1 become known as the Dallas Charter. So any 2 Bishop at the time would have had that as a 3 priority, and I sure did when I became Archbishop 4 o f Milwaukee. 5 So, yeah, one o f my first priorities 6 would be to find out, to ask some questions to 7 make sure that we were in line in our fidelity to 8 the promises that were made by the Dallas 9 Charter. And so that would have been a major 10 goal. I trust that I was rather rigorous in 11 vacuuming knowledge and consulting with people 12 and making sure that we had things in order. 13 Q And as a first priority that -- as you have 14 described it, to whom did you go to help make 15 sure that the Archdiocese was in line with the 16 promises made? 17 A To whom did I go. First o f all, to the Lord 18 asking his grace and guidance, because it was -- 19 We were all facing such difficulties that one 20 would find oneself praying a lot, but you mean on 21 this side of heaven? 22 Q Yes. 23 A I would have gone to -- I would have spoken to 24 Joe Hornacek, who was the Vicar for Clergy. I 25 would have spoken to Dr. Barbara Anne Cusack, who Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 12 00012 1 had been extraordinarily diligent and capable in 2 her efforts in this. I would have spoken to 3 Jerry, because he had been --he had been the 4 masterful in communicating the Archdiocesan steps 5 that had been made, and then there were a lot of 6 bodies that I would have spoken about. I don't 7 mean physical bodies, I mean consultative bodies. 8 We did, thanks be to God, have a very 9 expert review --what was called a Review Board, 10 so I would have sat down with them and said, 11 "Take me through this, you are the independent 12 Review Board, are we all right with this." I 13 would have met with the Priest Council. 14 Obviously, I was very concerned about them, the 15 morale o f the priests, their take on situations. 16 I would have met --My predecessor had 17 set up what was called a Community Advisory Board 18 that was made up o f people throughout the 19 community, most o f whom were not Catholic, who 20 were very passionate about victim assistance, and 21 that group had been up and running, and I met 22 with them. We met once a month. I found them to 23 be -- Those were not easy meetings, but I found 24 them to be incredibly helpful. 25 I would have met with Bishop Sklba. I Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 13 00013 1 would have met with Matt Flynn, who was the 2 attorney for the Archdiocese. So those were 3 people with whom I would have sat and asked about 4 it. 5 Q Having met with all those you have described to 6 make sure that the Archdiocese was in line with 7 the promises made in the charter, did you 8 conclude that the Archdiocese o f Milwaukee was in 9 compliance with the charter or not in compliance 10 with the charter? 11 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form, time 12 frame. 13 MR. ANDERSON: In your first six months 14 as the Archbishop of Milwaukee. 15 MR. LO COCO: Thank you. 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah, thanks.Can I - If 17 I can make a distinction here. 18 MR. ANDERSON: Sure. 19 THE WITNESS: Obviously, when we say "in 20 compliance with the charter," that's pretty 21 broad, as well it should be, because there was a 22 lot in there. The major thing -- So there were a 23 lot o f issues about compliance with the charter. 24 The major thing when I got there that I wanted to 25 be assured of and which I asked everybody to whom Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 14 00014 1 you just referred, are we consonant with the 2 Dallas Charter and the promise we made to our 3 people that there is no priest against whom there 4 has been a substantiated allegation o f sexual 5 abuse of a minor who is currently assigned or 6 publicly exercising his priesthood and, thank 7 God, I was assured there were none. So from that 8 regard, yes, we were in compliance. 9 There's other aspects of the Charter, 10 though, that -- and, o f course, a broad aspect o f 11 the Charter would be in pastoral outreach to 12 those who had been abused. So I would have 13 thought to myself, yes, even though, thank God, 14 we are in compliance, I think -- and we're 15 certainly in compliance with the letter o f the 16 Charter, the spirit o f the Charter I want to do 17 more. I would like to amplify our outreach to 18 victims. I would like to continue to try our 19 best to let the victims o f sexual abuse by 20 clergy, I would like to let them know that this 21 is --the church is their spiritual home and we 22 will do our best to respond to their needs. So 23 from that point o f view it was still a challenge. 24 It wasn't a done deal. 25 Q You mentioned that you wanted to make sure that Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 15 00015 1 no priest had been in ministry or was in ministry 2 against whom substantiated allegations had been 3 made, correct? 4 A Correct. 5 Q And is it correct to say that as far as you knew 6 then in your first year and as Archbishop, there 7 was no priest in ministry that was identified to 8 you against whom substantiated allegations had 9 been made? 10 A That would be correct. 11 Q Did you ever look at the protocol that had been 12 used by the Archdiocese o f Milwaukee to determine 13 whether past complaints made was satisfactory in 14 determining whether an allegation was 15 substantiated or unsubstantiated? 16 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form. You 17 can answer, if you understand it and have an 18 answer. I think it's a little ambiguous. 19 MR. ANDERSON: I can rephrase it. I'm 20 happy to make it a simpler question. 21 BY MR. ANDERSON: 22 Q Did you look at the protocol that had been used 23 to determine whether something was substantiated 24 and --versus unsubstantiated? 25 A Yes, I would have --not only would I have looked Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 16 00016 1 at the protocol, but then I would have found 2 myself --I would have found myself asking the 3 Review Board to go through it with me, because in 4 the Review Board we had officers o f the law, we 5 had attorneys, we had judges, we had 6 psychologists, we had parents, we had teachers. 7 I said, "Are we doing this right, are you at 8 peace with this, because you are the ones I trust 9 to tell me." So, yes, I did look at it. 10 Q Do you know what protocol was used for 11 determining whether an allegation was 12 substantiated or not substantiated? 13 A Did I know what protocol was used? 14 Q Yes. 15 A Sure. 16 Q What was it? 17 A Well, I'm preaching to the choir with you, you 18 are attorneys, so substantiation could come about 19 a number o f ways, right? You would have 20 admission by the abuser, which very often 21 happened in those days. The abuser would say, 22 "Yes, I did it." 23 You could have substantiation by law 24 enforcement officials, because with Dallas we 25 pledged that we would refer everything to law Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 17 00017 1 enforcement, so they at times would substantiate 2 it. Even if they did not, we went a step further 3 and we would do our own independent investigation 4 and bring the data and the details from that to 5 our Review Board and then they would. So we kind 6 of had those -- Those were the different steps 7 that we would have in trying to determine 8 substantiation. 9 Q To your knowledge while Archbishop, were any of 10 the allegations that had been previously 11 determined to be unsubstantiated altered so that 12 they were reviewed to have been substantiated? 13 A I could not remember. I could tell you what we 14 would have done if such a --if something came 15 in. In other words, if there were a new 16 allegation against or if there were a change in 17 data or something, then, once again, we would 18 have to take that fresh then and say, "We better 19 start from scratch on this one," but I can't 20 recall if any of those came in, either. 21 Q Okay. I think what I'm getting at is if there 22 was excavation o f what the past had been about 23 what allegations had been made and those that 24 were substantiated or unsubstantiated -- 25 A Um-hum. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 18 00018 1 Q --was there excavation o f that or not? 2 A By me, no. 3 Q Okay. 4 A But I would have asked -- I would have asked the, 5 for instance, the Review Board, I would have 6 said, "Have you done it, have you looked at all 7 that, are you at peace, because we are trusting 8 you, too," and they assured me that they had. 9 Q Okay. So when you looked at the protocols that 10 had been employed by all those you referred to, 11 were you satisfied that the Archdiocese was in 12 compliance with the Charter? 13 A I was, I was, uh-hum. 14 Q And were you satisfied that the protocols that 15 had been in place prior to your installation were 16 sufficient so that you continued them? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Did you make any changes to the protocols 19 pertaining to sexual abuse allegations while 20 Archbishop? 21 MR. LO COCO: Just on the issue of 22 substantiation or handling the whole topic? 23 BY MR. ANDERSON: 24 Q Well, let's talk about substantiation first. 25 A No, not that I can remember, no. I mean, you Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 19 00019 1 could imagine we were constantly talking about 2 them and discussing them and bringing them to the 3 attention of professionals to say, "Are we doing 4 this right." You can imagine we were, even as 5 Bishops nationally, we were constantly 6 reexamining this to make sure that we had it 7 precise. 8 You could imagine that --You could 9 imagine that as different cases would come about 10 you would say, "We have to be attentive to this 11 or we need to change the way," but, no, in 12 general I can't recall any substantive changes 13 that would have been done to the -- excuse me -- 14 to the protocol that I found in place when I got 15 there. 16 Q Okay. As Archbishop o f Milwaukee --And I think 17 you were Archbishop o f Milwaukee for seven years? 18 A Yeah, from 2002 to 2009. About six and one-half 19 years. 20 Q In that time frame did you make any changes in 21 how the Archdiocese o f Milwaukee dealt with and 22 addressed sexual abuse o f minors by clerics? 23 A Again, just like in general, yes. 24 Q In general. 25 A Yes, I would say so. While, thanks be to God, I Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 20 00020 1 found the protocols for the very precise and 2 extraordinarily important machinery to deal with 3 the accusations, that I found that to be in 4 order. Obviously, like I said before, there's 5 more to it than that. So generically in the 6 whole what you might call comprehensive pastor 7 response to this of which the compliance to that 8 substantiation is a part, albeit a very important 9 one, there were some changes there, um-hum. 10 Q Can you identify what changes you directed be 11 made? 12 A I can remember, although I don't want to imply 13 that this was not done in the past, I can 14 remember, for instance, saying, "I want the word 15 out that any victim that wants to meet with me 16 will find a warm welcome and they can come in. I 17 want the word out that we should do everything 18 possible to make sure that all the literature was 19 available in every church possible." 20 I would meet with people like Jerry to 21 say, "What can we do communications wise to let 22 people know what we are doing, what we have done, 23 what we hope to do." I tried to go to some 24 listening sessions. I can remember three of them 25 because they were, obviously, rather painful Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 21 00021 1 where I would sit down in kind of a town meeting 2 setting and listen to people. Those are some of 3 the things that come to mind that I tried to do 4 and wanted to do. Later on the dramatic one 5 would be the invitation to the voluntary 6 mediation. 7 Q Was that a decision made by you to create a 8 mediation process and invite people to come into 9 it? 10 A Well, that was a decision made by me. I can't 11 take credit for the idea. The idea actually came 12 from the victim --the abuse representatives. 13 Remember, I talked to you about that Community 14 Advisory Board. Actually, the idea seemed to 15 have come from some of the victims advocacy 16 groups that thought that voluntary mediation 17 could be extraordinarily beneficial and that 18 we -- It was providential, our geography, because 19 the Marquette University had an internationally 20 renown, I forget what they called it, like a 21 conflict resolution center that would have the 22 resources and the personnel available to do such 23 a thing. So that would happen later. 24 Q Do you remember what year that invitation to 25 mediation was made? Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 22 00022 1 A 2 Q I don't. I wish I did. You mentioned that it was influenced in part by a 3 victims advocacy group. Specifically who? 4 A That Community Advisory Board that I mentioned to 5 you, a lot o f great people on that, many 6 counselors that worked with victims, and actually 7 SNAP was one of those that said, "This would be 8 very helpful to us if we did it." 9 Q Who at SNAP would have been the spokesperson or 10 persons that influenced that? 11 A I can see one of the women, but I can't think of 12 her name, but I can remember Peter Isley. Those 13 two. 14 Q Did you consider as Archbishop the Dallas Charter 15 adopted by the Catholic Conference to be 16 mandatory or discretionary? 17 A I considered it to be mandatory. What it was 18 conically, I don't know, but I sure considered it 19 mandatory. Why do you laugh? 20 MR. LO COCO: Just because Jeff laughed 21 at it. 22 THE WITNESS: Can I ask questions? 23 MR. LOCOCO: No. 24 MR. ANDERSON: You can answer that 25 question. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 23 00023 1 MR. LO COCO: I was just afraid you were 2 going to be a canon lawyer for a second. 3 THE WITNESS: No, no, you don't have to 4 worry about that. 5 BY MR. ANDERSON: 6 Q Archbishop, as you have clearly stated, there was 7 in 2002 a very public crisis around sexual abuse 8 that you had to in some part deal with in St. 9 Louis, but as you came on in Milwaukee it 10 really -- in 2002 really kind of came to the fore 11 o f the public, correct? 12 A Correct. 13 Q And as you made a commitment to the Charter and 14 to the community o f faith to deal with this, what 15 guidelines or authorities did you rely upon to 16 deal with that crisis? 17 A 18 Um-hum, sure. MR. LO COCO: Object to the form. 19 BY MR. ANDERSON: 20 Q Well, let me, just for example, you are familiar 21 with the Canon Law, correct? 22 A Sure. 23 Q And, I mean, I know you have been trained in 24 Rome, but I don't think you are a Canon lawyer, 25 per se, correct? Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 24 00024 1 A 2 Q I wouldn't be considered a Canon lawyer, no. But tell me, if you would, then, how the Canon 3 Law dictated to you as the Archbishop how. you 4 were to deal with allegations of sexual abuse by 5 clerics. 6 A Sure. I could get to that if you would allow me 7 to make a wider observation, but tell me if I'm 8 getting off the subject. Canon Law wouldn't have 9 been one o f the priorities in telling me how to 10 deal with it. It would be one, and I will be to 11 get to that in a minute. Are you interested in 12 the others or do you just -- 13 Q No, I'm interested in really having you tell me 14 first as briefly as you can really what the 15 guidelines and/or dictates were to help you 16 address the crisis. 17 A Sure. 18 Q And then we can break it down, if necessary. 19 A Sure, sure. All right. Because Canon Law would 20 be part o f the conversation, but it certainly -- 21 certainly would not have been the exclusive one. 22 For one, I would like to think that there was 23 just an elementary sense o f justice and right and 24 wrong that here you have a tragically significant 25 group o f people that were viciously hurt by Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 25 00025 1 people who dared to say that they were 2 representing the church and the Lord. So 3 justice, I'd like to think an innate sense of 4 right and wrong and just ordinary human decency 5 would say to me, "Dolan, you need to do something 6 about this." 7 Number two would have been the specifics 8 o f the Dallas Charter which I think in a very 9 compelling way gave some body and some direction 10 to number one. 11 Number three I would say would be just 12 Catholic moral theology, Catholic moral 13 principles, Catholic thinking that would say that 14 we would have a particular solicitude for the 15 innocent and the young and those who have been 16 hurt. So there would be some. And then there 17 would come in the --then there would come in 18 Canon Law. 19 Now Canon Law, you already let me off 20 the hook because I'm not a Canon lawyer, but 21 Canon law would have reminded me o f the 22 obligations that I have as the pastor o f the 23 Diocese to the souls o f my people, and the souls 24 o f my people when I got to the Archdiocese o f 25 Milwaukee were hurting. The souls o f some people Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 26 00026 1 who had been damaged in a nauseating way when 2 they were young people, they were hurting, their 3 parents were hurting, the parishes were hurting. 4 So Canon law -- I mean, most o f the time 5 we think Canon law, I guess like you all do about 6 civil law, is what it tells you not to do, but 7 Canon Law itself had some extraordinarily noble 8 goals and principles that would say a Bishop 9 needs to be a shepherd to his people, and when 10 those people are hurting, you try to do something 11 about it. 12 Canon Law would also remind me that 13 people had certain rights, that those people had 14 rights to be heard by the church and they had 15 rights to decent, virtuous priests. Then Canon 16 Law would also have something to say about the 17 priests. The priests need to be held to the 18 highest moral code and that they, too, had 19 certain rights. So is that what you had in mind 20 in asking it? 21 Q I think so, Cardinal, and let's break a few of 22 those things down, first the Canon Law. As 23 Archbishop, as an Ordinary, did you consider that 24 then to be discretionary in its application by 25 you or mandatory? Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 27 00027 1 A No, it would be mandatory. Obviously, there's 2 providential judgment, as with any law, but, no, 3 Canon Law isn't something you can say, "Oh, I 4 don't want to obey it. You've got to." 5 Q When you refer to the sense o f justice that you 6 used as a guideline and a sense o f right and 7 wrong, I think is the way I wrote it down, did 8 you become aware that the statute o f limitations 9 in civil law offended your sense o f justice? 10 A I was aware o f the statute o f limitations. I 11 would not say it offended my sense o f justice. 12 Q Did you believe that the assertion o f the statute 13 o f limitations by the Archdiocese of Milwaukee in 14 defense o f claims made against it was a just 15 assertion? 16 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form. I'm 17 going to instruct you not to answer that to the 18 extent that it gets into conversations that you 19 undoubtedly had with counsel for the Archdiocese 20 regarding these issues, and Cardinal Dolan is not 21 a civil lawyer, either, so I think it's an unfair 22 question. Now I'm going to let Kathy reread the 23 question. If you have an answer beyond my 24 restrictions, you can give it, but otherwise 25 don't. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 28 00028 1 MR. ANDERSON: In other words, he 2 doesn't want -- I don't want to know what you 3 talked about with your lawyers, so take that out 4 o f the answer and then we will read the question 5 back. 6 COURT REPORTER: "Did you believe that 7 the assertion o f the statute o f limitations by 8 the Archdiocese of Milwaukee in defense o f claims 9 made against it was a just assertion?" 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 BY MR. ANDERSON: 12 Q 13 Why do you believe that to be use? MR. LO COCO: I'm sorry. I missed that. 14 BY MR. ANDERSON: 15 Q Why do you believe that to be just? 16 A Myself and people wiser than me have told me that 17 the statute o f limitations is an established norm 18 of the law as we have it, that it's intended to 19 protect the innocent, and not to tamper with it 20 would be perilous to the judicial sense o f equity 21 as we know it. 22 Q Are you aware that representatives o f the 23 Archdiocese and/or yourself resisted reforms of 24 the statute o f limitations in Wisconsin in the 25 legislature? Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 29 00029 1 MR. LO COCO: I'm going to object to the 2 form o f the question. We are getting way beyond 3 what I understood the purpose o f this deposition 4 was. 5 MR. ANDERSON: What's your legal 6 objection? 7 MR. LO COCO: We're either going to have 8 a conversation about it or I'm going to instruct 9 Cardinal Dolan not to answer the question. So 10 it's your choice, Jeff. 11 MR. ANDERSON: Well, you know, for time 12 we'd like to have a legal objection, if you have 13 one. 14 MR. LO COCO: Well, the legal objection 15 is it's beyond the scope o f what was agreed to 16 and what I was informed about regarding Cardinal 17 Dolan's deposition. 18 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. Let's have a 19 discussion. 20 MR. LO COCO: So we're not going -- 21 MR. ANDERSON: Let's have a discussion 22 then about parameters. 23 MR. LO COCO: Sure. 24 MR. ANDERSON: The question was was -- 25 THE WITNESS: Can I go to the bathroom Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 30 00030 1 while you guys are discussing this? 2 MR. ANDERSON: I think you have to stay 3 while we do this one. Do you want to take a 4 break and go to the bathroom? 5 THE WITNESS: No, it's not urgent. 6 MR. ANDERSON: The question was what 7 guided you and one o f the things was Canon Law 8 and the second one was a sense o f justice. I'm 9 talking now about the sense o f justice and how he 10 dealt with or chose to deal with or not deal with 11 certain things. I think it is within the 12 purview. 13 MR. LO COCO: Well, we're here doing 14 discovery on the claims o f A -12 and A -13. 15 Neither o f those abuse survivors Cardinal Dolan 16 knew, and I'm sure he will confirm that. My 17 understanding was that the focus of this 18 deposition was Cardinal Dolan's decision when 19 Archbishop o f Milwaukee to publicize the list o f 20 priests against whom there had been substantiated 21 allegations, not --And I understand there's some 22 broadness that has to attend that, but I don't 23 think getting into his personal views about civil 24 law, windows legislation or anything else comes 25 close to that topic. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 31 00031 1 MR. ANDERSON: The statute o f 2 limitations is an issue that's been asserted here 3 by the Archdiocese, and so it is the subject of 4 the inquiry and this is a part of that subject. 5 So we've both made our positions stated here, so 6 having done that, if you want to let him answer 7 the question, I think it's probative. If you 8 choose to instruct him, do so. 9 MR. LO COCO: One more point for Judge 10 Kelley. A-12 is an abuse survivor who was abused 11 between '72 and '74, and A -13 was someone abused 12 by a choir director from 1977 to 1981 long before 13 Cardinal Dolan was in the Archdiocese of 14 Milwaukee, and the assertions that are being made 15 within the Chapter 11 right now with regard to 16 A-12 and A -13, who didn't make claims 17 pre-petition, are not assertions being put 18 forward by Cardinal Dolan. Because o f all of 19 that, I'm going to instruct Cardinal Dolan not to 20 answer that question and we're going to move on. 21 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. Cardinal, should 22 we take a break for the bathroom? 23 THE WITNESS: I was going to take 24 advantage of this one, but we can go another 10 25 or 15 minutes. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 32 00032 1 MR. ANDERSON: You just make the call 2 whenever you are ready. 3 THE WITNESS: Thanks. 4 BY MR. ANDERSON: 5 Q One o f the other criterion that you mentioned for 6 handling sexual abuse within the Archdiocese o f 7 Milwaukee is you mentioned Catholic and moral 8 theology. That, of course, encompasses a large 9 and broad range o f things that I don't think 10 requires a lot o f analysis as it's well-known and 11 certainly studied by you. But the next thing you 12 mentioned was the obligations o f a pastor to the 13 people o f the Diocese. When you say "a pastor," 14 that also refers to you being kind of a shepherd, 15 as well, correct? 16 A You got it. Pastor is the Latin word for 17 shepherd, yes. 18 Q When it comes to the obligations you have 19 referred to as the shepherd of the flock or the 20 pastor to the Diocese, is that to the entire 21 community o f faith in the Diocese? 22 A Sure, and even those without. 23 Q Were any additional or new policies implemented 24 by you pertaining to sexual abuse that had not 25 already been implemented by your predecessors and Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 33 00033 1 as a result o f the Dallas Charter while you were 2 Archbishop? 3 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form. It's 4 been answered. I don't know if it's been asked 5 that way, but do you mean in addition to what 6 he's already said? 7 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, any policies. 8 THE WITNESS: Not that I can recall. 9 BY MR. ANDERSON: 10 Q At some point, Cardinal, we are informed and it 11 is well-known that a list o f accused or 12 substantiated allegations against clerics was 13 published by the Archdiocese of Milwaukee, 14 correct? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q And that was done on your watch, correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Is it also correct to say that consideration of 19 that decision preceded your installation as 20 Archbishop? In other words, your predecessors 21 had started that process? 22 A You know, Mr. Anderson, I think that would have 23 been generically something a lot o f Bishops were 24 talking about. Whether or not my predecessor, 25 either as Archbishop or as Apostolic Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 34 00034 1 Administrator had done any formal consideration 2 o f that, I don't know. I will tell you that when 3 I --when I said, "Let's talk about this," it was 4 not a new topic to them, but I don't know if 5 that's because it's something they had already 6 discussed a lot or had considered doing or 7 whether it was just one o f those things that a 8 lot o f people in those days were discussing about 9 as yet something else the church might do in 10 response to what they were hearing from people 11 whom we respected who said, "This will help you 12 in your laudable attempt to reach out to victims, 13 to protect children and to repair the credibility 14 that you have lost." So, Lord knows, it was not 15 a novel topic, but I cannot recall if there was 16 anything already precedent-wise that the 17 Archdiocese o f Milwaukee had ready to go. 18 Q Do you recall when, Cardinal, you first raised 19 the topic o f the creation and publication o f such 20 a list while Archbishop? 21 A I can't, but I will tell you this. My gut would 22 tell me --And when my gut talks, I listen, 23 because it's rather substantial. My gut would 24 tell me that I can't take credit for it. My gut 25 seems to prod my memory that that idea came from Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 35 00035 1 others, particularly from this Community Advisory 2 Board. Would you like me to talk more about 3 that? 4 Q No, I can --I can -- 5 A You have heard about that one? 6 Q I do know about that and I will also, to be fair 7 with you, there are some documents that I will be 8 showing you later on that demonstrate to us that 9 it was given consideration prior to your 10 installation, so your gut I think is correct. 11 A Okay. 12 Q And is in conformity with the documents I 13 reviewed. 14 A Oh, good. 15 Q So it looks like they were working on that, then 16 you got installed and then later -- 17 A Then it came about again. 18 Q Then you raised it. S o -- 19 A Yes, and I can remember. 20 Q I have --You have to wait for a question here. 21 A Sure, sure. 22 Q That's the way we do it here. Have you had a 23 chance to review anything in preparation for your 24 deposition today, any documents or anything like 25 that? Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 36 00036 1 A 2 Q No documents, no. Other than talking with counsel, have you 3 consulted with anything else about it or done 4 anything in preparation for it? I don't want to 5 know about what you talked to counsel about. 6 A Except for Frank and me chatting yesterday, I 7 haven't done any study or preparation. 8 Q I will show you some o f those things and those 9 documents and that will kind o f peg some o f the 10 events. 11 A Sure. 12 Q At one point in time the review o f the documents 13 seems to indicate to me or to us that a decision 14 was made to release a list o f substantiated 15 allegations against priests, and then at some 16 point in time you may have reversed that. Do you 17 recall anything like that? 18 A I couldn't recall the actual facts, but I would 19 not be at all embarrassed to admit that I can 20 remember there was a lot o f back and forth and 21 that in my own mind I went back and forth. In 22 consulting people, in listening, there would be 23 one day that I would say, "This is the thing to 24 do." Somebody would say, "Here's the pluses and 25 minuses, and I said, "Well, let's hold o ff for Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 37 00037 1 awhile." Boy, I wouldn't hide the fact that it 2 was a tough decision and that in my own mind I 3 found myself going back and forth. 4 Q And maybe you could elaborate on the tensions 5 that you were feeling in your own mind on whether 6 or not you should release such a list to the 7 public. 8 A Sure, sure. So you mean like the pros and cons 9 in my own mind? 10 Q Yes, the tensions that you felt or the conflict 11 you experienced around that decision. 12 A Sure. The pros were that I was hearing a rather 13 unanimous chorus from the victims advocacy 14 community, whom I had come to trust even though 15 they were sometimes very neuralgic meetings who 16 were rather --rather unanimous, I say "rather," 17 1 put the adverb in there because I can remember 18 one or two very aggressive victim defenders who 19 felt that it would be not the thing to do. But 20 in general it seemed pretty clear that the 21 victims advocacy community was encouraging me to 22 do this as a step in the right direction. So 23 that was one thing in my mind. 24 A second pro was that it made sense. It 25 made sense from a protection o f youth point of Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 38 00038 1 view that if these were -- if these were men whom 2 we were convinced and that we had proof that they 3 were no longer, thank God, exercising the 4 priesthood and being removed from the priesthood, 5 were, obviously, still alive, and even though we 6 had gone through rather dramatic steps to see as 7 far as notification o f police and public 8 notification o f this fact of these people, that 9 if we could put out a list, that would be good. 10 1 mean, if this particular man was living in an 11 apartment building, again, even though we had 12 notified the police and put the blurbs in the 13 Sunday bulletin in the parishes there, that that 14 could be another step in the protection of 15 children. 16 Another pro was that when people said to 17 me -- they would say to me, "Dolan, you keep 18 saying you want other victims to come forward." 19 There might be people out there whose memory -- 20 or that they kind o f know it, but they are 21 embarrassed to come forward, and if they see, 22 indeed, this man has been --there was an 23 allegation that was substantiated, they might 24 then have the freedom to come forward, which 25 could be amazingly therapeutic and cleansing. So Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 39 00039 1 those were pros that were there. Did you want 2 the cons, too? 3 Q Sure. 4 A The cons were that, first o f all, people said no 5 matter how hard you try and no matter how 6 scrupulous you are in composing this list, 7 there's still going to be people that are 8 unhappy, because then they will say, "You left 9 this one off or that one off," even though the 10 allegations were not substantiated. So that you 11 would reopen some wounds in people who still feel 12 that father so and so abused them, and even 13 though that went through the law and went through 14 the investigation and went through the Review 15 Board and was not shown to be substantiated, they 16 believe it was, and if they are not on the list, 17 they are going to be rehurt. So that was another 18 reason not to. 19 I have to be honest with you to say I 20 was worried about priestly morale and the morale 21 of the people. I thought, good God in heaven, 22 all they do is every day hear bad news about the 23 church. We are beginning to make some progress, 24 we are beginning to make some healing here, and 25 now I'm going to publish this list again and it's Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 40 00040 1 going to tear open the scab and priests are going 2 to say that these Bishops are using --trying to 3 regain their credibility by hanging priests out, 4 and those were the negatives about it. 5 Listen, then, too, other people would 6 say, you know, if you publish the names o f these 7 priests, there are going to be some of these 8 priests that are going to sue you, and there's 9 going to be some victims who are going to say, 10 and there were, as a matter o f fact, some victims 11 who said, "Please don't publicize the list, 12 because so far I have been anonymous, but if my 13 family sees father so and so, they are going to 14 know this, that he's the one that abused me." I 15 didn't claim to understand all o f that, but that 16 was the pros and cons that I was hearing. 17 Q When the decision was made to publish the list, 18 it's correct to say that the list was limited to 19 the names o f those priests whose -- against whom 20 substantiated allegations had been made and their 21 current status was what was published, correct? 22 A The list was of, yes, here are the priests 23 against whom there has been a substantiated 24 allegation o f sexual abuse o f minors, and then 25 their canonical status. I can't remember, to be Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 41 00041 1 honest with you, what else was on it. 2 Q Okay. It is correct to say that there was no 3 information given at the time the list was 4 published about what was actually known about 5 that particular priest or any priest on that 6 Archdiocese and when it was known and where they 7 had offended and anything like that, correct? 8 A I can't remember. I think literally it was just 9 a list, so I don't think there were paragraphs 10 and descriptions. That having been said, most of 11 that had been put out anyway, because it was 12 already the protocol o f the Archdiocese that once 13 a case was resolved, that was published, and so 14 there was some publicity given to that, but I 15 don't think that that was part o f the list. 16 Q You say that the policy o f the Archdiocese was 17 once a case was resolved to publish it, it's 18 correct to say that it was the policy o f the 19 Archdiocese to publish that a priest had been 20 removed or had been credibly accused, but nothing 21 more about the priest's history in terms o f what 22 the Archdiocese knew and when they knew it? 23 A You mean before I got there or -- 24 Q While you were there. 25 A Boy, I don't know. I can remember going to a Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 42 00042 1 parish, for instance, when I had to remove a 2 priest and telling the people to their face. I 3 said, "You need to hear this bad news from me." 4 It was not an accusation that it happened at the 5 parish. Again, it was from a long time before. 6 I can remember the priest's assignment 7 history being published. Whether that was an 8 isolated case or not or whether that was policy, 9 I don't know. I can't remember. 10 Q Who was that, Cardinal? 11 A Do you know who that was? Can I ask? 12 Q No. I f you remember. 13 A I can see the guy and I can't remember his name. 14 MR. LO COCO: Do you mind if he asks at 15 the break? 16 MR. ANDERSON: No, I don't mind if 17 something refreshes your memory, but right now 18 what we're trying to do is get what you do 19 remember. 20 MR. LO COCO: Got it. 21 THE WITNESS: Sure. 22 MR. ANDERSON: Fair to say. 23 MR. LO COCO: I'm good for a break 24 whenever you hit a good spot. 25 MR. ANDERSON: In just a moment here. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 43 00043 1 BY MR. ANDERSON: 2 Q Do you have any memory o f any disclosure being 3 made to the Archdiocese as a matter o f course or 4 policy about any o f those priests on the list 5 that was published that pertained to the actual 6 history that was known to the Archdiocese about 7 each of those priests, when they had offended and 8 where they had offended or anything like that? 9 A Could I -- Could you be a little more clear in 10 the question? 11 Q Sure. Was any information as a matter of 12 protocol or practice disseminated pertaining to 13 the list beyond the fact that the priest had a 14 substantiated allegation, his name and his 15 current status? 16 A On the list or in general? 17 Q On the list. 18 A On the list I can't recall truthfully, although 19 my memory is it was the name. 20 Q And then in general -- 21 A But in general, yes, I think there was. I think, 22 for instance, in the whatever the name o f the 23 newspaper was in the Archdiocese that when there 24 was a priest removed, there was an article about 25 him, about that sad fact and his biography. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 44 00044 1 Q Was there a disclosure made by the Archdiocese o f 2 the information that was contained in the 3 personnel files pertaining to allegations of 4 sexual abuse and the history? 5 A Well, there would have been a disclosure to law 6 enforcement people. They had complete access to 7 the files. But you mean publicly? 8 Q Yes. 9 A You mean beyond the assignments? 10 Q Beyond the assignments, yes. 11 A No, I don't think so. 12 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. Is this a good 13 time to take a break for you? 14 THE WITNESS: Sure thing. 15 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. Let's do it. 16 VIDEOTAPE TECHNICIAN: We're now off the 17 record at approximately 2:34 with Videotape 18 No. 1. 19 (A recess was taken.) 20 VIDEOTAPE TECHNICIAN: This is Tape 2 in 21 the deposition o f Cardinal Dolan. We're now on 22 the record at approximately 2:45 p.m. 23 BY MR. ANDERSON: 24 Q What I'm going to be doing, Cardinal, is showing 25 you various documents that have been produced to Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 45 00045 1 us from the files o f the Archdiocese. 2 A Good. 3 Q And to make it as easy for us as is possible, 4 we're using them as they have been produced and 5 what we call Bate stamped, and I'm showing you a 6 document for example in the lower, right-hand 7 corner. 8 A There it is, yes. 9 Q Do you see -- 10 A ADOM. 11 Q Archdiocese o f Milwaukee, and then there's a 12 number, and this particular one is 121906. So 13 when I refer to this exhibit, I'm going to use 14 that number. 15 A Good. Okay. 16 Q And in a moment I will show you the list that has 17 been published and is reported to have been 18 published in July of 2004 that now was taken off 19 the website in 2008. But for the moment I am 20 showing you this exhibit, and it was produced to 21 us from the files, and it pertains to it looks 22 like some work being done concerning a number of 23 priests and allegations o f sexual abuse o f minors 24 and whether it's substantiated in the year 2002, 25 October of that year. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 46 00046 1 I guess I'm showing you this to kind of 2 bring you back to that point in time first to see 3 what your memory is about kind o f what was going 4 on at that time as you recall it in determining 5 whether or not to publish and disclose or not 6 and, if so, what was to be disclosed publicly. 7 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form o f the 8 question. There's a long prece to it. I mean, 9 what I took it to be was what was going on in 10 October of 2002 regarding the issue o f publishing 11 the list. Is that the question? 12 MR. ANDERSON: Well, I guess I'm trying 13 to bring him back. He hasn't looked at the 14 document so -- 15 MR. LO COCO: I don't even know if he's 16 ever seen this document. I mean, you haven't 17 asked that. Anyway, my objection is it's an 18 ambiguous and vague question. 19 BY MR. ANDERSON: 20 Q Okay. Let me ask you this. In 2002, in the fall 21 o f 2002, October and thereabouts, do you remember 22 what you and the Archdiocese was doing pertaining 23 to the formulation o f a list and what to do with 24 it? 25 A Yeah. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 47 00047 1 Q 2 A What do you remember about that? You are asking me, Mr. Anderson, still just about 3 that list? 4 Q Yes. 5 A I don't think we would have spoken about the list 6 that early. If I recall correctly, I don't think 7 that was an immediate thing. I might be putting 8 my foot in my mouth because you might be showing 9 me something later, but right now as I'm thinking 10 in those opening months, I don't think publishing 11 a list was one of the burning issues. That would 12 come up later. So I don't know o f a list like 13 this. That's the right date on the top, so this 14 would have been October 18, '02. Am I correct in 15 thinking -- Well, you are supposed to be asking 16 the questions, not me, but I presume the reason 17 for your question would be would this have been 18 part o f our research in preparation for the 19 release o f a list. I doubt if that were the 20 case. 21 Q Looking at this exhibit, obviously there's 22 typewritten portions that identify names of 23 priests, assignments, years, substantiated, et 24 cetera, and then there are handwritten notes in 25 the left-hand side in somebody's hand. Are you Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 48 00048 1 able to recognize whose that --whose writing 2 that is? 3 A I can recognize it's not mine, but I cannot 4 recognize whose it is. 5 Q Okay. And as you look at this particular 6 exhibit, is it one that is familiar to you at all 7 as having been created and/or reviewed by you or 8 anybody at your direction in or around October o f 9 '02? 10 A Whether I saw this exact list, I don't know, but 11 this would be the kind o f list. Remember, I told 12 you when I first got there, I said, "You all need 13 to assure me," and this would have been the kind 14 o f list that I could have recalled looking at 15 when they said, "Here's the history, here's the 16 guys that we had worried about, and here's the 17 disposition." This would have been the kind o f 18 thing that, as sickening as it was, that I would 19 have looked at, yes. 20 Q In a few moments I'm going to show you the list 21 that actually got published, but on the first 22 page o f this exhibit the name 23 appears -- 24 A Um-hum. 25 Q -- on this exhibit. Do you see that name as the Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 49 00049 1 second one? 2 A Yes. 3 Q His name is not on the list that ultimately was 4 published as we have reviewed it. Do you know or 5 remember why that would have been omitted from 6 the published list in 2004? 7 A No, I don't know if it was omitted or not. I 8 trust you on that that it was. Why it was, if it 9 were omitted, I would not know why. 10 Q Okay. 11 A I can remember that one o f the debates -- 12 Remember when I said there was a lot o f give and 13 take and going back and forth on all sides, pro 14 and con? One of the debates was even among those 15 that said, "Okay, you should put out a list," but 16 then part o f that subset was "but you shouldn't 17 have the deceased on it." So that was yet 18 another discussion even complicated further. 19 Q And I think on the right-hand column this 20 reflects that jllf j^ ^ ^ H P I w a s deceased. Do you 21 see that? 22 A Yes, that's what prompted my memory. If he 23 weren't on it, maybe that's why. 24 Q Let's look at the third page o f this exhibit 25 which is marked 121908, directing your attention Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 50 00050 1 to it, and the first name on that page is 2 3 A Um-hum. 4 Q Our comparison reflects that this name did not 5 appear on the published list. 6 A Um-hum. 7 Q Do you have any personal knowledge or memory as 8 to why that is so? 9 A 10 No. MR. LO COCO: While you are between 11 questions, I appreciate that we are not marking 12 exhibits at this deposition, we are just using 13 Bates labels because it helps to uncomplicate the 14 record later. This is one o f the reasons why 15 this needs to remain under seal, because there 16 are, as Mike and I know, there are names on the 17 list o f people -- on this list in particular of 18 people that may not have even had allegations 19 against them regarding sexual abuse o f minors, 20 and in fairness and in justice to them, we need 21 to make sure we are careful with the record. 22 Thank you. 23 MR. ANDERSON: Well, as to the 24 deposition and the seal issue, that is and can 25 and will be corrected when the opportunity is Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 51 00051 1 given, as has been the case with every deposition 2 and every disclosure. So it will always be our 3 intent to abide by the necessary redactions in 4 accord with any court order and protocol, but -- 5 MR. LO COCO: And I appreciate that. 6 THE WITNESS: At best we're sending more 7 information than may be necessary later. 8 MR. LO COCO: I appreciate that. I 9 think it's always helpful to make sure that's in 10 the record o f any deposition we engage in. 11 BY MR. ANDERSON: 12 Q Do you remember, Cardinal, the priests whose name 13 is on the top of this third page, 14 A Boy, I can remember the name. I can't remember 15 all the details. 16 Q Do you remember an allegation was made against 17 him 18 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form. You 19 can answer, if you can. 20 MR. ANDERSON: -- of sexual abuse? 21 THE WITNESS: You mean do I remember the 22 allegation that was made? 23 BY MR. ANDERSON: 24 Q The allegation. 25 A No. He's just one of those names that is part of Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 52 00052 1 sad memories. This is bringing back names o f 2 people that we spoke about. Whether there was an 3 allegation, whether it was substantiated or not, 4 I don't know. 5 Q Okay. The next page marked 121909, two-thirds 6 down on that page, Cardinal, you will see the 7 name , Do you k now that 8 name? 9 A That would be a name that I cannot recall seeing 10 before. 11 Q And our comparison o f the list that was published 12 and this document reflects that it is not a name 13 that was on the published list. Do you have any 14 memory as to why that is so? 15 A No. 16 Q Directing your attention to what would be about 17 the fifth page in this document, Exhibit 121911, 18 do you have that before you, Cardinal? 19 A Sure, um-hum. 20 Q At the bottom o f it there are two names, , and the last 21 22 name |. Our comparisons 23 reflect that these are not names published on the 24 list. 25 A Um-hum. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 53 00053 1 Q Do you have any personal knowledge or memory as 2 to why that is so? 3 A No, no. 4 Q I'm showing you another exhibit. 5 A Are we done with this one? 6 Q Yes. You can put that one right next to you 7 because they are similar. And this is 8 essentially --This is Exhibit 121885, Cardinal, 9 and you will see that it is essentially the same 10 document, at least the typewritten portions, but 11 now there's notations in the right-hand column in 12 a handwriting. 13 A Yes. 14 Q And at the top on the first page you see zero 15 equals known. Now when you look at this one, 16 it's dated 10/31/02, so it's close in time to the 17 last exhibit, but it also has a date in the 18 handwriting o f 8/22/03. Do you see that 19 handwritten date? 20 A Where? 21 Q 8/22/03 right to the right of 10/31/02. 22 A Yes, yeah. 23 Q Whose handwriting is that? Can you look at that 24 and identify it? 25 A I can look at it, but I can't identify it. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 54 00054 1 Q When you look at these two exhibits, are they 2 familiar to you as being working drafts o f what 3 to release and what not to release being 4 circulated among the --your office internally? 5 A To recall what I said previously, this would be 6 the kind of working list that I can recall using 7 in my attempt upon arrival to learn the status of 8 priests that had --that we have a bad history 9 of. Whether to jump then to say is this the kind 10 o f list we used in compiling the list about which 11 you are speaking, that I don't know. 12 Q I'm going to direct your attention to the last 13 page o f this exhibit, Cardinal, and on that last 14 page there's additional handwriting. 15 A Um-hum. 16 Q And there is the name ^ ^ ^ ^ v i t h Fiorenza. Do 17 you know that name? 18 A Fiorenza? 19 Q Yes. 20 A I do. 21 Q Who is that? 22 A Judge Fiorenza was an ex-judge that we counted 23 upon to do investigations o f cases that -- in a 24 further attempt to substantiate. So, in other 25 words, even if the law enforcement people said, Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 55 00055 1 "There's not enough here," or "We don't think he 2 did it," that still wasn't enough for us and that 3 wasn't enough for the Review Board. So we had an 4 internal person, namely Judge Fiorenza, who then 5 would do his research and bring the data to the 6 Review Board. 7 Q When was Judge Fiorenza employed by the 8 Archdiocese as a part of the process? Was that 9 during your watch or your predecessor's? 10 A No, I would have inherited him. He would have 11 been onboard when I got there. 12 Q The next name is - Do you know 13 that name? 14 A I do know that name. I mean, the name --I can't 15 recall the case. By the way, I think he called 16 i t H I 17 Q Okay. 18 A So, yes, I do recognize the name, but I do not 19 recall the details of the case. 20 Q Then beneath that in handwriting to the right of 21 8/22/03 there are three names, 22 23 A Um-hum. 24 Q Are they all former priests now deceased o f the 25 Archdiocese? Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 56 00056 1 A You know, those would be priests that I cannot 2 recall. Those would be new ones to me. I guess, 3 I mean, I saw them back in 2002, but I don't have 4 a working memory o f those. 5 Q Do you remember that a decision was made to not 6 put deceased priests against whom allegations had 7 been substantiated, to not put them on the list? 8 A On the published list, you mean? 9 Q Yes. 10 A I can't recall. I can remember it being a 11 controversial decision. I can't recall which 12 side we came down on. 13 Q Here's the same document in typewritten fashion, 14 but it's got some additional handwriting on it, 15 and it's marked 056213. Do you see the 16 handwriting on the right-hand side? 17 A I do. "Dolan will decide whether this goes to 18 CDF." Um-hum. 19 Q Yes. And CDF refers to the Congregation o f the 20 Doctrine o f the Faith at the Vatican, correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q What you do have to do, Cardinal, is make sure we 23 don't talk over one another. 24 A I'm sorry. Thanks. 25 Q I will remind you and you can remind me, if I do Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 57 00057 1 the same. 2 A Sure thing. Sure. 3 Q Tell me about that. What decides whether -- What 4 criterion did you use to determine whether or not 5 this list or any information on it goes to the 6 CDF? 7 A Good question. Keep in mind there were two 8 things that we had to --there were two decisions 9 we had to make, all right, and the first one was 10 pivotal. The first one was whether or not the 11 guy stays in ministry. That was my decision or 12 my predecessor's that one no longer makes on his 13 own. One makes it after referring to the law. 14 One makes it after an internal investigation, and 15 one makes it after resolution by the Independent 16 Review Board. 17 Then my decision would be this man is 18 out of the priesthood. He can no longer publicly 19 practice his ministry. That's a decision every 20 Bishop makes. So that's the first and most 21 important, because that's what we have to do. 22 That's the promise we made to our people, this 23 guy is out. He cannot publicly represent himself 24 as a priest, he can't dress as a priest and he 25 can't publicly celebrate the sacraments. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 58 00058 1 Here's the second level. What do we do 2 with him canonically. By Canon Law what do we 3 do. Now that's kind o f a decision I can't make. 4 I can't remove his priesthood. I can remove the 5 practice o f it, but I can't remove his identity. 6 The Holy See can, Rome can, okay? So then I had 7 to decide, and that --I hope you understand that 8 first one was the biggy, he's out. Okay. Now 9 internally what are we going to do with this guy, 10 and there's a number of things you could do. 11 By the way, that's been refined since 12 I've left Milwaukee, as you probably know, but 13 back then you could do a number o f things, You 14 could ask the Holy See, the Vatican, to take the 15 man's priesthood away. You could do that, and we 16 did on some. 17 Q Involuntary removal from the holy state? 18 A Yes, or return to the lay state. That can be 19 voluntary or involuntary, and we did that, okay, 20 but I couldn't do that, only Rome could. So 21 that's a decision you want to make, or you might 22 say, especially with a guy that's old and sick, 23 you might say that he lives a life o f prayer and 24 penance. Namely, while he has got his priesthood 25 internally, he can never exercise it. That's a Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 59 00059 1 decision I can't make, either. 2 So most o f the time you would have to 3 say, "Whew, thank God we got him out o f the 4 priesthood, but now we have to decide what to do 5 with him internally canonically. That's when you 6 would go to Rome. Now sometimes -- Since then 7 now you just refer it to Rome and they kind of 8 tell you this guy needs to get out, we will take 9 the priesthood away, or they might say, "Let's 10 have a canonical trial to decide what to do with 11 him," or they might say, "He's 90-years-old, let 12 him live a life of prayer and penance." 13 I'm presuming that notation meant that 14 Dolan as the Archbishop was going to have to 15 decide if he's going take this to Rome, and the 16 competency then was under CDF, Congregation o f 17 the Doctrine o f Faith. It wasn't always so, but 18 it became that, and that what he's going to ask 19 for. I guess that's what it meant. 20 Keep in mind --You probably know now, I 21 might be saying too much, now we don't have that 22 discretion. They all have to be reported to 23 Rome. They all have to be reported to Rome. I 24 don't think that was the case back then. 25 Q When was that decision made or edict by Rome to Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 60 00060 1 require reporting to them? 2 A That they all had to go? Can't remember. 3 Q Was that when then Cardinal Ratzinger was the 4 head o f the CDF? 5 A This would have been, if it were '02. 6 Q No, the mandatory report to Rome. 7 A That might have been part o f the tightening up by 8 the Holy See. 9 Q Under John Paul? 10 A Under either one, I don't know who, that it's not 11 up to you to decide whether or not you want to 12 report it to Rome. You got to. 13 Q So simply stated, and correct me if I'm wrong, as 14 an Ordinary Archbishop you would have the power 15 to remove the priest and his faculties from 16 ministry, correct? 17 A Um-hum, um-hum. 18 Q Yes? 19 A Yes. I'm sorry. Yes. 20 Q And you would also have the power to petition his 21 removal to Rome from the clerical state? 22 A Yes. 23 Q But you did not have the power to remove him from 24 the clerical state? That vested exclusively 25 under Canon Law with the Pope? Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 61 00061 1 A 2 Q With the Apostolic See, right, right, correct. Cardinal, I'm showing you another exhibit. This 3 one is marked 121870, typewritten, two pages and 4 titled "Priests Accused o f Sexual Abuse Involving 5 Minors since 1926." Is it your memory that under 6 the Charter the Bishops concluded that they were 7 going to try to assemble such a list o f priests 8 that went back as far as that that had been 9 accused? 10 A I can't recall of the Bishops corporately 11 deciding that. I do know the only thing -- This 12 kind of document I cannot recall ever seeing. 13 The only thing I can speculate, if that's -- 14 MR. LO COCO: I don't want you to 15 speculate. Sorry. 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. Sure. 17 BY MR. ANDERSON: 18 Q Well, let me ask you this. When we look at this 19 there are a number o f -- 20 THE WITNESS: I'm not used to people 21 telling me that. 22 MR. LO COCO: I bet you are not, and I'm 23 not used to telling somebody like you what to do. 24 THE WITNESS: I wish I had it more 25 often. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 62 00062 1 Q Well, when we look at this you can see that there 2 is priests who are accused o f sexual abuse and 3 then there's first the deceased category. Do you 4 see that? 5 A Yes, I do. 6 Q And * 'n there, and I think that's s 7 one o f the names I pointed out before. 8 A I remember that. I remember you pointing it out, 9 yeah. 10 Q And the next category is Archdiocese is 11 requesting administrative laicization by the Holy 12 Father. 13 A Okay. 14 Q And that's what we were just talking about? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And then the next category is Archdiocese is 19 requesting an indefinite administrative precept 20 which restricts all ability to function as a 21 priest, including ministry, presentation, 22 identification and clothing. This request takes 23 into account the physical or age-related 24 limitations o f the offender. Does that category 25 require action by the Holy Father's office or Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 63 00063 1 not? 2 A 3 Let me read that again, if you don't mind. MR. LO COCO: I'm sorry. Which 4 paragraph? 5 THE WITNESS: It's the third one. 6MR. ANDERSON: The long one. 7 MR. LO COCO: Oh, the indefinite. Got 8 it. Thank you. 9 THE WITNESS: The only thing that has me 10 hung up is that last sentence. No, I would not 11 think this would require permission by the Holy 12 See. I think the Archdiocese and indefinite 13 administrative precept, which restricts all 14 ability to function as a priest, including 15 ministry, presentation, identification and 16 clothing, I would not think that requires the 17 permission o f the Holy See. 18 Q Okay. The next category is Archdiocese is 19 requesting a penal trial be held in cases being 20 sent to Congregation for the Doctrine o f the 21 Faith for further instruction. This would be a 22 category where the Holy See and the office that 23 is handling it has jurisdiction, correct? 24 A If I understand it. I don't know the answer to 25 that. My understanding o f a penal trial -- Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 64 00064 1 Remember I told you before like in substantiation 2 one of the usual ways is a priest admits it, and 3 in my years, in the early years, tragically most 4 did. I mean, it's good they admitted it, praise 5 God for their honesty, but most o f them admitted 6 it. There would be some that would say, "I 7 didn't do this," and so in those occasions the 8 Holy See would say, "Okay, well, we better have a 9 canonical trial." So I presume that's what that 10 is. 11 Q The next category states, "Left active ministry 12 or voluntarily sought laicization prior to 2002," 13 and in the right-hand side there's a name | '' i and under it there's a 15 handwritten notation. I read it to say, "No 16 accusation (concerns o f behavior)." I don't know 17 if that's correct, but do you know anything about 18 t h i s ^ ^ | ? 19 A No, I don't. That is a name I cannot recall. 20 What's the date on this? We don't know, huh? 21 Q As produced I don't have it, but if you look at 22 the second page at the bottom there, it says that 23 it's updated February 17, 2004. 24 A I see it there, um-hum. 25 Q So that is our best estimate o f the date. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 65 00065 1 A 2 Q I would have been there then. On the second page it lists or categorizes 3 returned from District Attorney and awaiting 4 resolution by outside investigator. At that time 5 the District Attorney was Michael McCann, 6 correct? 7 A Um-hum. I'm not sure. 8 Q Did you have direct contact with him? 9 A I would have direct contact with Michael McCann 10 sometimes. 11 Q What was the nature and circumstances? 12 A But I would not speak to him about cases. I 13 would have contact with him socially or in other 14 areas. For instance, I remember him giving an 15 excellent lecture once on not this, but on other 16 matters. So contact about cases, no. 17 Q Did he --As a Catholic was he involved in 18 Archdiocesan affairs or activities with you or 19 the Archdiocese, to your knowledge? 20 A Well, he was a very committed, faithful Catholic, 21 but I don't think he was involved in any Diocesan 22 organizations or any Diocesan service projects, 23 no. 24 Q In this category the name Martin Knighton, 25 K-N-I-G-H-T-O-N, appears? Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 66 00066 1 A 2 Q Yes, Marvin. And then it says, "Full restrictions," but our 3 comparison to the list reflects that he is not on 4 the published list. Do you know why that is so, 5 Archbishop, or Cardinal? 6 A No, I don't know. 7 Q Oh, here. 8 MR. LO COCO: He is. 9 MR. ANDERSON: I misspoke. It's the guy 10 above him, 11 THE WITNESS: H H H , um-hum. 12 BY MR. ANDERSON: 13 Q He is not, I'm told, on that list as published. 14 Do you have knowledge o f why that is so? 15 A No, I can remember but I would not 16 be able to enlighten you on why he was or wasn't 17 on the list. 18 Q The next category is allegations without 19 substantiation, and do you have information as 20 you look at the names on this that allegations 21 were made pertaining to any o f these identified 22 priests that were determined to be false? 23 A I'm sorry. I was districted by looking at the 24 list. Would you say the question again? 25 Q Sure. Do you know if when you look at the -- the Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 67 00067 1 category of allegations without substantiation 2 and there's the number 11 behind it? 3 A Um-hum. 4 Q Do you know if it was determined by those in the 5 Archdiocese making such a determination that any 6 of the allegations made against any o f these 7 priests identified were determined to be false? 8 A I don't know that. My presumption would be the 9 very title would say that, yes, they were shown 10 not to have been substantiated. Now keep in mind 11 my major question at the time was two things. If 12 there was an allegation against a guy, did it go 13 to the police and did it go to the Review Board. 14 Those were the two things. 15 So if there was not -- if there was an 16 allegation that is without substantiation, it -- 17 in my memory those two --Do you see the 18 Eisenberg Commission there? You know what that 19 is, right? That was like the first o f what we 20 then called the Diocesan Review Board because it 21 was pre-Dallas. So actually the Archdiocese of 22 Milwaukee anticipated the reforms o f Dallas and 23 had done that. So I would simply say did the 24 police --did this go to the DA and did this go 25 to the Review Board, and if it's not Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 68 00068 1 substantiated, the allegation must have been 2 false. 3 Q Now there is a difference, is there not, between 4 an allegation o f sexual abuse of a minor made 5 that's not substantiated versus an allegation 6 that is false, is there not? 7 A Probably, sure, um-hum. 8 Q In one case it didn't happen and in the other 9 case it just could not be established? 10 A I see what you mean. It could not be shown. 11 Right. 12 Q And is it correct in your understanding of, you 13 know, the sexual abuse and how you develop 14 protocols within the Archdiocese that one way you 15 substantiate allegations made, if there is one 16 person reporting abuse, is to make the name known 17 to see if there's other victims that corroborate 18 it or substantiate it, correct? 19 A That's correct, yes. That would have been one o f 20 the arguments for the list, yes. 21 Q And as it pertains to the category of the 11 22 priests here, allegations without substantiation, 23 wouldn't it have been helpful to have made it 24 known that accusations had been made, but they 25 had yet to be substantiated to see if there were Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 69 00069 1 others out there who had been abused and made 2 similar claims? 3 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form o f the 4 question. If you understand it, you can give an 5 answer. 6 THE WITNESS: I would have to say that 7 one would have heard that argument. One would 8 also have heard the argument that that would 9 irreparably damage the reputation o f a priest 10 that didn't do it, so you would hear both. 11 BY MR. ANDERSON: 12 Q And one o f the goals that I think you had 13 described before, Cardinal, and I would applaud 14 such a goal is to get names out there so the 15 victims can come forward, correct? 16 A Correct. 17 Q To hold back these names against at least -- is 18 to really not advance that goal, correct? 19 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form. It's 20 argumentative, it's not a fact question, but 21 subject to that, if you have an answer, you can 22 give it. 23 THE WITNESS: I would, because that, you 24 know, one hears that a lot, but one has to recall 25 some of the nature o f the allegations. If we get Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 70 00070 1 an allegation against a priest from somebody that 2 says he got off a flying saucer and tried to 3 abuse a person, we don't want to --that would be 4 terribly unjust to publicize a priest's name 5 because an accusation like that comes in. 6 BY MR. ANDERSON: 7 Q You can easily discern that that would be a false 8 allegation, correct? 9 A 10 Q Yeah. Okay. But if somebody came in and said, "I was 11 abused as a 14-year-old by this priest," and that 12 was the only person that had made that 13 allegation, if you published that an allegation 14 had been made but yet to be substantiated is 15 different, is it not? 16 A There's a difference between a false allegation 17 and a substantiated one. 18 Q Let's look at this --In this list here of 19 allegations without substantiation you will see the one down is 21 A Um-hum. 22 Q And his name was not placed along with these 23 others on the list because the allegation that 24 had been made was not substantiated, correct? 25 A I can't remember the nature of the decision why Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 71 00071 1 it was --why he was or was not left off. 2 Q Okay. Well, I think it was described beneath it. 3 You can read it. 4 A Um-hum. 5 Q There is an account. 6 A No substantiation there, huh? 7 Q Yes. 8 A My presumption then would be if the rubric o f the 9 list was those with substantiated allegations, 10 that would be the reason he would have been left 11 off. 12 Q Were you aware, Cardinal, that as Archbishop o f 13 Milwaukee that a settlement had been made 14 pertaining to H 15 f H I [before 2004? MR. LO COCO: Objection, form, 16 foundation. That's a foundation question. If 17 you know, you can answer. 18 THE WITNESS: I can't recall. 19 BY MR. ANDERSON: 20 Q Do you recall having received information 21 directly or anybody under your control that | 22 had been known and reported to have been swimming 23 with youth and boys in the nude? 24 A I can recall that, yes. 25 Q What do you remember about that and when such Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 72 00072 1 information came to your attention? 2 A I can remember --I don't know how it came to my 3 attention, but I can remember I have it in my 4 mind that that had been made. 5 Q Do you know when, Archbishop -- Cardinal, when 6 m H name actually did get made public? 7 A I don't, no, unh-unh. 8 Q Have you heard from any source that after it was 9 made public by that other victims 10 did come forward? 11 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I saw you 13 moving before I answered. 14 MR. LO COCO: Did he go public, Mike? 15 MR. FINNEGAN: He did. 16 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 17 MR. LO COCO: I was worried about that. 18 So, first of all, do you know 19 ? THE WITNESS: No. 20 BY MR. ANDERSON: 21 Q Well, here's the question. The use o f the name 22 threw him off. So have you heard or did you 23 become aware that after H B name went public 24 and was made public by a survivor who came 25 forward by the name o f . that Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 73 00073 1 other victims came forward? 2 A I did not know that. 3 Q Did it worry you as Archbishop back then in 2004 4 that these names on this exhibit who had 5 unsubstantiated allegations remained in ministry 6 and posed a risk o f harm to the kids? 7 A Well, generically I was worried about everybody, 8 you know, you are saying how could I be 9 absolutely sure. How could I have any -- How 10 could I have as much certainty as is morally 11 possible about everybody, and certainly these on 12 this list would have been higher on that list, so 13 I said, "What else can I do." You ask the police 14 to look into it, you ask our independent 15 investigator to look into it, you refer it to the 16 Review Board. If they come up to say "This 17 cannot be substantiated," that's all I could do. 18 Q Well, you were aware that the DA declined 19 prosecution most o f the time because o f the 20 statute o f limitations? 21 A That's why we would have that independent 22 prosecutor. Some would say, "Oh, good, we don't 23 have to do anything," but we said, "Unh-unh, we 24 have to hold ourselves to a higher standard." 25 Q And you also did express concern about priests Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 74 00074 1 being wrongfully maligned, correct? 2 A That's legitimate. Right, I did. 3 Q But you also had to balance that against -- 4 against the wellbeing o f the children o f the 5 community of faith, right? 6 A That's for sure. That's for sure. 7 Q So when you are balancing that, the decision was 8 made to error on the side o f priests being 9 wrongfully maligned versus the possibility o f any 10 of these priests offending, correct? 11 A 12 I would say -- MR. LO COCO: Objection. Object to the 13 form. It's argumentative. You can answer. 14 THE WITNESS: No, I would think that 15 would not be a valid assumption, because there 16 could be others not on this list. Again, I'm 17 speaking just in generic memory. You know, 18 remember you know from the Dallas Charter that 19 the Review Board, the Independent Review Board 20 does two things for us. They substantiate an 21 allegation and then they assess fitness for 22 ministry. There are some cases, but if you ask 23 me to name them I wouldn't be able to, but just 24 generically there's a possibility o f a priest 25 that the Review Board said, "We cannot Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 75 00075 1 substantiate this case, we don't think it 2 happened, and the police can't, either, and he 3 denies it and there's nothing else in his record, 4 but we think he should not be reassigned," and 5 then I would listen to them. So there would be 6 examples o f us --I think what you are saying is 7 it's a tough call between protecting innocence of 8 priests and protecting children. I would like to 9 think that the latter has more weight, the 10 protection o f children. 11 Q Let's make sure we don't mix up our terms, 12 because I think we want to be talking about the 13 same thing. So first let's -- One category is 14 substantiated? 15 A Yes. 16 Q I will agree those are ones where the Review 17 Board and your office is satisfied they can go on 18 the list, correct? 19 A Right. 20 Q The next category is not substantiated or without 21 substantiation, okay? 22 A Okay. 23 Q And that means that there is some information 24 that the priest abused? 25 A There was an allegation, yes. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 76 00076 1 Q There was an allegation. And then the third 2 allegation is a false one, didn't happen. 3 A Okay. 4 Q Okay? 5 A Okay. 6 Q And that's different from not substantiated, 7 okay? 8 A Um-hum. 9 Q So let's use those three categories, 10 substantiated, not substantiated and false. 11 A Okay. 12 Q Okay. Because we don't want them mixed up not 13 substantiated with false. 14 A Sure. 15 Q Then looking at the non-substantiated 16 allegations, those without substantiation here, 17 were any o f these priests against whom 18 allegations had been made but not substantiated 19 restricted in their access to children? 20 A I couldn't recall. I wouldn't know. Can I say, 21 if you allow me to elaborate -- 22 Q If you wish. 23 A --that's a category that we learned tragically 24 doesn't work, so I could not see --I could not 25 see me using that. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 77 00077 1 Q 2 A When did you learn it didn't work? The Bishops learned that because, as you know, in 3 the past we'd have documents from psychologists 4 and all saying, "You can reassign this man, but 5 he shouldn't be assigned with minors." Where is 6 that going to be. You can't do that. So I would 7 not think --that would not --in my mind that 8 would be an impossible distinction. 9 Q I missed -- I didn't understand the last part 10 when you say it would be an impossible 11 distinction. What did you mean? 12 A The old category o f restricted ministry. 13 Q Oh, I see. 14 A That you can assign a priest to a ministry that 15 would not entail contact with minors. That's 16 impossible. 17 Q Yes. I get that now, yeah. At one time I think 18 there was common thinking -- 19 A At one time they thought they could do 20 apparently so did the psychologists and all, that,and but 21 that tragically, well, that didn't work, so we 22 can't do that. 23 Q When do you think -- When you say the "we," I 24 think your are talking about the Bishops. 25 A Um-hum. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 78 00078 1 Q 2 A When do you think that we learned that? I think that would have been Dallas. I would 3 like to think we would have learned it ahead of 4 time, but in Dallas we formalized it. 5 Q I'm showing you another exhibit, Cardinal. This 6 one is 121799. 7 A Got it. 8 Q I'm going to try to keep it so we can use our 9 time, I know we don't have time to review the 10 entire thing, so I will represent to you that 11 this one is produced to us and looks like, you 12 know, this is something that is -- 13 MR. LO COCO: This was an exhibit to Dr. 14 Cusack's deposition, wasn't it, Mike? 15 MR. FINNEGAN: Yes. 16 BY MR. ANDERSON: 17 Q And there's actually two copies o f the same 18 document. The first two pages are one, and then 19 the second two pages is the same document but 20 with handwriting. 21 A Um-hum. 22 Q So first at the top o f it it says, "Process for 23 Listing Past Clergy Offenders?" 24 A Um-hum. 25 Q And when you look at this, does this --you will Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 79 00079 1 see at Item No. 2 the process to be used is as 2 follows. Item No. 2 says, "Determine what 3 information to include," and then paren internal 4 team. A is name, B is time frame o f incidents, 5 e.g., mid 1970s. C, parishes served and dates. 6 D, when removed from ministry, maybe this -- 7 maybe include this, and, E, current status. 8 A Um-hum. 9 Q I will represent to you on our review o f the 10 documents, and Finnegan did this so he's good at 11 this, that the list that was published only 12 publishes A, the name, and E, the current status. 13 A Um-hum. 14 Q The question then is why did you and your office 15 make the decision not to include B, C and D? 16 A Um-hum. The specific answer to that I wouldn't 17 know. I think that the encouragement that we're 18 getting, Wisconsin traded on the names. 19 Primarily we want the names. The other stuff 20 seemed to be not as essential as the name. 21 Q Was that your call or did somebody else urge that 22 to you? 23 A I'm sure it was part o f encouragement given to me 24 by others, but I would have to take either the 25 credit or the blame for the ultimate decision Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 80 00080 1 that was made. 2 Q Do you remember who it was specifically that 3 urged that other information not be included? 4 A No. Boy, I was consulting a lot o f people, and 5 who came up that specific one, I don't know. 6 Q Okay. Let's turn to the third page o f this 7 document which mimics the first page, but it's 8 got additional handwriting, and to the left o f 9 Item No. 2 you will see the handwriting 10 "Objective is to let people know -- 11 A Um-hum. 12 Q -- surface more victims." 13 A Um-hum. 14 Q Whose handwriting is that? 15 A I don't know. Not mine. 16 Q Wouldn't you agree, Cardinal, that had all these 17 items been disclosed as contemplated at least by 18 this document at this time, that more victims 19 would have surfaced back then if the dates o f the 20 reports had been known, the dates o f the 21 incidents had been made known, the details o f the 22 incidents had been made known, the parishes where 23 they served had been known and what actions, if 24 any, taken by the Archdiocese had been known? 25 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form of the Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 81 00081 1 question, it's compound, it calls for speculation 2 and there's a lack o f foundation, particularly 3 with Cardinal Dolan on this particular question 4 on what effect that would have had. Subject to 5 those objections, if you have an answer, you can 6 give it. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, all I know is I got 8 so much criticism for just releasing the names 9 that I --the other stuff I probably didn't have 10 time to think of. 11 BY MR. ANDERSON: 12 Q Wouldn't you agree that the objective to let the 13 people know and have some more victims surface 14 would have been served if that was the objective 15 by more information being disclosed? 16 MR. LO COCO: Same objections. You may 17 answer. 18 THE WITNESS: That's a very laudable 19 objective. Whether the -- and I'd like to think 20 that was the main reason that we reported the 21 names. Whether the others would have amplified 22 that, that would be conjecture on my part. 23 BY MR. ANDERSON: 24 Q This is another document, but it was produced in 25 another context and the Bate stamp is a little Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 82 00082 1 out o f sync with the other exhibit numbers. So 2 this exhibit number is AML00697. My only 3 question to you is, Cardinal, as Archbishop did 4 you ever see this particular handwritten 5 document? 6 A Not that I can recall. 7 Q Do you recognize the signature? 8 A I would not recognize the signature. 9 MR. LO COCO: Just to be fair to the 10 record, I don't think we produced this in the 11 Chapter 11 case. I think you got it some other 12 place. 13 MR. ANDERSON: I think that's true. 14 That's why it's marked that way. 15 MR. FINNEGAN: I think we did. 16 MR. LO COCO: You think there's an ADOM 17 number? 18 MR. FINNEGAN: There is an ADOM number. 19 It was just easier for me to access -- 20 MR. LO COCO: Okay. That's fine. 21 MR. FINNEGAN: --because we had used it 22 in the pre -- 23 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. I would have been 24 worried that we didn't. Okay. 25 Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 83 00083 1 BY MR. ANDERSON: 2 Q Cardinal, I'm handing you another exhibit, and 3 this one is marked 023888. This appears to be -- 4 A What was it again, 889? 5 Q This is 888 and 889. 6 A Oh, I see. There's two pages there. There it 7 is. 8 Q The last three digits. This appears to be, on 9 our reading of it, the Privileged and 10 Confidential Final Version o f something 11 pertaining to a priest by the name of Daniel 12 Budzynski. You are familiar with Budzynski, are 13 you not? 14 A I am familiar with Daniel Budzynski. 15 Q And do you remember personally ever reviewing the 16 file maintained by the Archdiocese pertaining to 17 Budzynski? 18 A I cannot recall, but I would say I would have had 19 to because he's one o f the ones I asked for a 20 return to the lay state. 21 Q And for you to make a request o f the Holy Father 22 for return to the lay state, would it have been 23 your practice to fully review the file or act 24 upon recommendation o f those answering to you? 25 A Both. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 84 00084 1 Q Do you have, with any sense o f certainty or 2 memory today, that you actually did review the 3 Budzynski file or not? 4 A No, I can't remember reviewing it, and I have to 5 be honest did I review -- did they give me a 6 summary o f it --Budzynski was so obviously 7 horrible that I thought I want this one done and 8 I want it done expeditiously. So whether I 9 reviewed it in toto, I don't know. I cannot 10 remember. 11 Q Do you have any memory o f how many people, how 12 many kids he was accused o f having abused or 13 having admitted to having abused? 14 A I can recall this was a particularly nauseating 15 case. 16 Q Do you recall having paid money or authorized the 17 payment o f money to Budzynski for his voluntarily 18 fleeing the priesthood? 19 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form. We're 20 a little far afield from the purpose o f the 21 deposition, but you may 22 answer that. THE WITNESS: I can't recall that, no, 23 unh-unh. 24 BY MR. ANDERSON: 25 Q Did the Archdiocese employ a practice under your Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 85 00085 1 watch that would pay money to those priests 2 accused or had been --had abused, that they 3 would receive a certain amount o f money if they 4 sought laicization voluntarily? 5 A The way you would ask the question, Mr. Anderson, 6 I would say, no, that would not be a practice. 7 However, if I might, if I might presume to say 8 what you might be getting at. 9 Q Well, let me say how I read the practice and then 10 see if I'm correct. It appears that there was a 11 practice that was employed that if they --they 12 were to get paid $10,000 if they sought 13 laicization at the start, and then if they were 14 laicized voluntarily and did not contest it, they 15 would get $10,000 at the back end, a total of 16 $20,000? 17 A Um-hum. 18 Q Does that sound right? 19 A I d o n 't- - I would not call that a practice. I 20 would not deny that that was done on occasion, 21 but I would not call that a payoff or a 22 settlement. But I would not deny that that was 23 done, the fact that you mentioned. Was it a 24 payoff, was it a settlement, was it an impetus, I 25 wouldn't say that, nor would I say was it a Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 86 00086 1 normal practice, but it was done. 2 Q And when it was done, it was done by and with the 3 Archdiocese and known only to those within the 4 Archdiocese? 5 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form, 6 foundation. You can answer. 7 MR. ANDERSON: Officials. 8 THE WITNESS: I don't know if I 9 understand the question. I would not have done 10 it on my own. I would have consulted with my 11 people, sure. 12 BY MR. ANDERSON: 13 Q But that was not made known to the public that 14 that was being done? That was done by the Office 15 o f the Archbishop and those who you as Archbishop 16 chose to have it known? 17 A I think --I can't be sure. It would be 18 speculation. I cannot recall us, though, being 19 allergic to the idea o f letting that fact be 20 known. I mean, did we hold a press conference, 21 maybe not, but did I run it by the Finance 22 Council, did I speak to the College of 23 Consultors, probably. 24 Q Can you identify at any point in time in which 25 that particular practice, to the extent it was Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 87 00087 1 employed, was ever made known to the community of 2 faith? 3 MR. LO COCO: Objection to the form. 4 The Cardinal said more than once it wasn't a 5 practice. It was done. 6 BY MR. ANDERSON: 7 Q Well, what was it? What would you call it then? 8 When you did it, did you ever make it known to 9 the community of faith that you did it? 10 A I can't recall. 11 Q I'm showing you exhibit -- another exhibit, 12 Cardinal. This one is marked 009299. This would 13 be a letter from then Vicar for Clergy Hornacek, 14 February 21, 2003, to a priest at the 15 Archdiocese, James Flynt. 16 A Um-hum. 17 Q And I'm directing your attention to the third 18 paragraph, Item No. 1. It says, "If a priest 19 elects voluntary laicization, we would offer what 20 has been our practice -- 21 A Um-hum. 22 Q -- if not policy, for more than a decade, namely 23 $10,000 when the petition is submitted and 24 $10,000 when a definitive response is received, 25 regardless of the contents o f the response." Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 88 00088 1 A Um-hum. Okay. 2 Q It's a practice, isn't it? 3 A Well, there's a difference between --You could 4 say we would offer what has been done in the 5 past, or we would offer what has been our policy. 6 Is it a policy? I don't think so. I mean, did 7 somebody come in and say to me, "Oh, Archbishop 8 Dolan, you have to do this, this is our policy," 9 no. Did somebody come in and say to me, 10 "Archbishop, this has been done in the past," and 11 if there's a question o f justice, helping a man 12 get medical insurance or to transition out o f the 13 priesthood, which we were eager to have done and 14 there was a precedent for it, I might be open to 15 it. But was it a policy that was locked in, no. 16 Q I didn't say policy, I said practice. 17 A A practice that it was done sometimes, yes, but 18 not always, um-hum. 19 Q And when the term "our practice" is used here, 20 the "our" refers to the Archdiocese o f Milwaukee, 21 correct? 22 A Or to the Vicar for Clergy, yes, um-hum. 23 Q I'm showing you another exhibit. This one, 24 Cardinal, is two pages and it involves Becker. 25 A Um-hum. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 89 00089 1 Q Somebody known to you, I trust, as one o f the 2 priests o f the Archdiocese, and do you remember 3 how and if Becker was paid money and the 4 circumstances of it? 5 A I can remember that he's another one that I 6 wanted to laicize and to do it as expeditiously 7 as possible. If I recall correctly, when the 8 laicization came through, he let it be known 9 through his attorney that he was going to be 10 without medical insurance because he had a year 11 to go before Medicare kicked in. I can remember 12 seeking consultation about it and being told that 13 both from a canonical and a legal point of view 14 if something happened to him, guess who would be 15 responsible, me, and so probably the most prudent 16 thing to do was to see that this man had medical 17 coverage for the last year before Medicare kicked 18 in. I said, "I don't want to give this man a 19 check." It was suggested to me that I give a 20 check to our attorneys, who would give it to his 21 attorney for the purchase of proper medical care. 22 Q Do you recall that as it pertained to Becker he 23 was paid $10,000 under the practice, but didn't 24 get the second $10,000 because he did not 25 voluntarily seek laicization? Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 90 00090 1 A 2 Q I cannot recall if he voluntarily did or not. He did not voluntarily petition for a 3 laicization. 4 A Um-hum. 5 Q He refused it, but he did receive this $10,000, 6 so the question is do you actually remember why 7 he received the 10,000? 8 A 9 I do remember that, which I -- MR. LO COCO: You just answered that. 10 BY MR. ANDERSON: 11 Q Is that what you answer was, it was because of 12 the insurance? 13 A It was because I was told that that would be the 14 just thing to do, to --not only the just thing 15 for him, but the just thing to protect the 16 Archdiocese that if he had a stroke or something, 17 we would have a couple hundred thousand dollar 18 bill on our hands, so I provided for health 19 insurance. 20 Q I took a statement from him at one point in time, 21 and he told me, and I'm paraphrasing it, that he 22 was concerned that if he talked to me that the 23 settlement money he received from the Archdiocese 24 for going quietly would be --have to be given 25 back. Does that resonate with you? Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 91 00091 1 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form of the 2 question, lacks foundation. You can answer. 3 THE WITNESS: Well, two things. First 4 o f all, he hardly went quietly. He was one of 5 the more notorious whiners and narcissists that 6 we had. And, number two, it doesn't take much to 7 know that his credibility is nothing. So I 8 wouldn't believe a word he said. 9 BY MR. ANDERSON: 10 Q Why do you say that? 11 A I mean, he had a record o f making these ludicrous 12 remarks, just these misstatements that were just 13 all over the place. 14 Q He also had a record o f having abused multiple 15 children? 16 A 17 Did he ever. MR. LO COCO: I'm going to need another 18 break. 19 MR. ANDERSON: Let's take a break now. 20 THE WITNESS: Where are we at? What 21 time is it. 22 MR. ANDERSON: Right now I have ten to 23 4:00. Should we take a break? 24 THE WITNESS: I don't need one, but, 25 sure, I would defer to you guys. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 92 00092 1 MR. LO COCO: Sure. My brain needs one. 2 VIDEOTAPE TECHNICIAN: We're off the 3 record at approximately 3:48. This is the end of 4 Videotape No. 2. 5 (A recess was taken.) 6 (Exhibit 1 was marked.) 7 VIDEOTAPE TECHNICIAN: This is Videotape 8 No. 3 in the deposition o f Cardinal Dolan. We 9 are now on the record at approximately 4:01 p.m. 10 Proceed. 11 BY MR. ANDERSON: 12 Q Cardinal, I've placed before you what I had 13 promised you earlier that I would present the 14 exhibit now marked 1 which was the list that was 15 published first in 2004. This exhibit I will 16 represent to you we actually pulled off the 17 internet in '08, and it appears to us to be the 18 same names listed, and the status o f the priests 19 may have changed from '04 to '08, but otherwise 20 it would be the same. So I will just represent 21 that to you as the way we believe it to be. 22 A Um-hum. 23 Q If it proves otherwise, I will stand corrected, 24 but for our purposes I think it is correct. So 25 this appears to be the list that was released in Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 93 00093 1 2004? 2 A Yes. 3 Q I'd like to ask you some questions about the 4 files maintained by the Archdiocese. Under Canon 5 Law, of course, there is a requirement that files 6 be maintained on each priest, correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And there's a file maintained in the Chancery 9 pertaining to each priest called a priest file? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And there's also under Canon Law a requirement 12 that says that if there's scandalous material, 13 that that be maintained by the Ordinary in a 14 secret file, correct? 15 A I didn't know that o f Canon Law. 16 Q You did not know that? 17 A I did not know that, no. 18 MR. LO COCO: I'm sorry. Can I have 19 that last question back, please. I wasn't really 20 a question, it was a statement. 21 COURT REPORTER: "And there's also under 22 Canon Law a requirement that says that if there's 23 scandalous material, that that be maintained by 24 the Ordinary in a secret file, correct? Answer: 25 I didn't know that of Canon Law. Question: You Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 94 00094 1 did not know that? Answer: I did not know that, 2 no." 3 MR. LO COCO: I object to the question 4 because that whole issue was dealt with in Dr. 5 Cusack's deposition, and the fact that there's 6 nothing in the file and we have, o f course, 7 produced everything pursuant to prior motion 8 practice in this case. 9 MR. ANDERSON: Well, the question didn't 10 make any assumption. It's what Canon Law is. 11 Cannon 49 requires it. I'm asking if he knew 12 about it. 13 MR. LO COCO: It's your statement about 14 Canon Law, Jeff. Let's ask a question. 15 BY MR. ANDERSON: 16 Q Cardinal, the files that get maintained 17 pertaining to the priests, and specifically those 18 that have offended or have been accused of 19 offending, that information is maintained in the 20 Chancery in the priest file, correct? 21 A Correct. 22 MR. LO COCO: Just a minute. I'm 23 putting this on the record. At the break I asked 24 Mr. Anderson and Mr. Finnegan why a New York 25 Times reporter would have been calling to ask Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 95 00095 1 questions about this deposition. I was told by 2 these gentlemen that they didn't contact the 3 Times, this is a deposition under seal, however 4 they did inform their clients that this 5 deposition was taking place and, of course, they 6 have no control over their clients. 7 I was further told by Mr. Anderson that 8 he did not speak to Ms. about anything 9 substantively related to this deposition, yet I'm 10 reading the online article that was posted 17 11 minutes ago with quotes from Jeff Anderson. 12 MR. ANDERSON: Wait a minute. 13 MR. LO COCO: This is going to be raised 14 with Judge Kelley on Thursday. Ask your next 15 question. 16 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. At the break you 17 asked me about the Times. I told you I was 18 called this morning. We had told our clients. 19 i - ., asked if 1 was taking the 20 deposition, where I was and if I was taking the 21 deposition, and I told her yes. She asked, "What 22 is it about." I said, "It pertains to the 23 bankruptcy and it pertains to discovery o f 24 matters pertaining to objections that have been 25 made, and it pertains to the 575 claims that have Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 96 00096 1 been brought and some objections that have been 2 made to the claims," and that's what it pertains 3 to. 4 MR. LO COCO: First o f all, that 5 representation to her is false. This deposition 6 deals with the list and with two claims, A -12 and 7 A-13. Let me finish. Secondly, the quote in the 8 Times online says, quote from Mr. Anderson, "The 9 deposition o f Cardinal Dolan is necessary to show 10 that there's been a long-standing pattern and 11 practice to keep secrets and keep the survivors 12 from knowing that there had been a fraud 13 committed," close quote. That's not what you 14 told me before we went back on the record you 15 said to her. I think that violates-16 MR. FINNEGAN: That is a statute of 17 limitations issue, Frank. That's the whole 18 issue, what information has been given to 19 survivors. 20 MR. ANDERSON: That is the issue. 21 MR. LO COCO: I'm not arguing about it 22 any further with you guys. I have made any 23 comments on the record. We will deal with Judge 24 Kelley on Thursday. Ask your next question. 25 THE WITNESS: As it pertains to what you Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 97 00097 1 asked what I told her, I told you the substance 2 o f what I told her and that's -- 3 MR. LO COCO: Ask your next question. 4 You shouldn't have been talking to her about the 5 substance of the deposition. 6 THE WITNESS: Do I have to continue? I 7 feel very uncomfortable continuing. I don't know 8 if I have the attitude or spirit to go on. 9 MR. LO COCO: This was done 10 cooperatively to advance the case in Milwaukee, 11 not so you could get your mug on TV again, Jeff, 12 or in the New York Times, which I know is what's 13 most important to you. 14 MR. ANDERSON: I got called and asked -- 15 Look -16 MR. LO COCO: Let's go o ff the record. 17 VIDEOTAPE TECHNICIAN: We're now off the 18 record at approximately 4:07. 19 (A recess was taken.) 20 VIDEOTAPE TECHNICIAN: We're back on the 21 record at approximately 4:20 p.m. 22 MR. LO COCO: We have agreed to move 23 forward to complete this deposition. Cardinal 24 has done nothing but be cooperative here, and we 25 want to finish this as expeditiously as possible. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 98 00098 1 Next question. 2 MR. ANDERSON: Thank you, Cardinal. We 3 are going to shoot to try to get done by 5:00 so 4 you can make your 5:30 appointment. 5 BY MR. ANDERSON: 6 Q We were asking some questions about the files 7 maintained at the Chancery pertaining to the 8 priests, and in particular priests who have been 9 accused o f or found to have committed sexual 10 abuse o f minors. Directing your attention to 11 that topic, Cardinal, who at the Chancery besides 12 yourself had access to those files? 13 MR. LO COCO: Objection, foundation. If 14 you know. 15 THE WITNESS: Vicar for Clergy, 16 Chancellor. 17 BY MR. ANDERSON: 18 Q And when and if a file reflected a history o f 19 sexual abuse by one o f those offenders, would 20 that information be released to anybody outside 21 o f the Office o f the Archdiocese if they 22 requested to know about that offender, such as a 23 victim? 24 MR. LO COCO: I'm sorry. Can you read 25 that back? Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 99 00099 1 MR. ANDERSON: I can rephrase it, if you 2 want. 3 MR. LO COCO: Okay. 4 BY MR. LO COCO: 5 Q If a victim came to the Archdiocese to ask about 6 the history o f an offender, would a victim be 7 given access to that file? 8 A I can remember cases where that happened. 9 Q Can you identify when? 10 A No, I couldn't. 11 Q Can you identify what offender, where that 12 happened? 13 A 14 Q No. Can you identify who in your office made such a 15 fileavailable to a victim who requested it? 16 A By Canon Law the Chancellor has it as his or her 17 jurisdiction to exercise --to make sure there's 18 discipline over the files. I can remember our 19 Victims Assistant Coordinator being very 20 concerned about victims that would be reading 21 that file. She herself sometimes cautioned 22 against it. I think when the victim would 23 insist, as long as the counselor --emotional 24 counselor, not a legal counsel, was with the 25 victim in case there was a reaction, that even Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 100 00100 1 the Victims Assistance Coordinator said that was 2 fine to do it. 3 Q Can you identify the name of any survivor or 4 victim where a file was made accessible to them? 5 A No, I couldn't remember. 6 Q Can you give me an estimate o f the number of 7 instances where it was done? 8 A No. 9 Q There is a document I'm going to show you here 10 which is marked Exhibit 121519, Cardinal, and the 11 date on the first page says, "Approved 12 January 23, 2008." 13 A Um-hum. 14 Q In our review this kind o f indicates that this 15 may have been something that was created under 16 Archbishop Weakland, but I'm not sure. First, do 17 you recognize this document? 18 A No. 19 Q Okay. But at the right it says, "Files: 20 Priest," correct? 21 A Um-hum, yes. 22 Q And it talks about the summary and scope of the 23 policy. This policy pertaining to files and 24 priests, correct? 25 A Correct. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 101 00101 1 Q At Item D it states, "The Chancellor is 2 ordinarily delegated by the Archbishop to have 3 primary responsibility for maintenance o f priest 4 files," is that correct? 5 A Correct. 6 Q Second page it identifies under "Possible 7 Contents of the Files," Item A, they're in the 8 Chancery Office, B, confidential information is 9 Vicar for Clergy Office, correct? 10 A Correct. 11 Q And there it states, "This file contains matters 12 that affect a priest's right of privacy. 13 Confidential information is primarily located in 14 the priest's file in the Vicar for Clergy Office. 15 Some confidential information may be located in 16 the Chancery, including," and then it's 17 identified. Is that a correct statement o f the 18 policy? 19 A That would be a correct statement o f the policy. 20 You are reading from it. 21 Q And then at Item D it states, "Items Not To Be 22 Retained in Clergy Permanent Files." A -- Not A. 23 Item Dot 1, anonymous letters shall not be 24 inserted in the clergy permanent file. The 25 priest may be informed o f its contents if deemed Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 102 00102 1 appropriate, but the letter is not to be filed. 2 Why would an anonymous letter not be put into the 3 file? 4 MR. LO COCO: Objection, foundation. If 5 you know. If you know. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 7 BY MR. ANDERSON: 8 Q The next item not to be retained in the clergy 9 permanent file states, quote, "Narrative and 10 progress reports from professionals and treatment 11 centers are ordinarily read by the appropriate 12 Archdiocesan officials and returned to the person 13 or organization that sent the report; if the 14 report includes a brief statement of a 15 professional indicating in summary form the 16 diagnosis and prognosis, that may be retained as 17 noted above." Why is that information not to be 18 included in the file as a matter o f policy? 19 MR. LO COCO: Objection, lacks 20 foundation. I f you know, you can answer. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, because most o f the 22 treatment centers would say it shouldn't be. 23 BY MR. ANDERSON: 24 Q The next page deals with access, Cardinal, Roman 25 No. IV. It states, "The Archbishop, the Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 103 00103 1 Auxilliary Bishop, the Chancellor, the Vicar for 2 Clergy, and the Vice Chancellor all have ordinary 3 access to the priest files, i.e., they can at any 4 time have access to the files." Was that the 5 practice? 6 A Yes. 7 Q B states, "The Archbishop may authorize other 8 individuals to have limited access to a specific 9 file or files in writing. This authorization 10 shall be only for a limited time period." That 11 refers to limited access to clergy. In other 12 words, what does this mean? 13 MR. LO COCO: What does 4B mean? 14 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, what does 4B refer 15 to. 16 THE WITNESS: I f the individual priest 17 wanted to review his file, for instance. 18 BY MR. ANDERSON: 19 Q Okay. That's what I thought, but I wanted to 20 clarify it from you. The next page, Cardinal, is 21 part o f the document, and directing your 22 attention to F it states, "If an individual or 23 entity not described above wishes access to 24 records or to have copies o f specific information 25 released, that may be done only upon the Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 104 00104 1 following conditions: One, a written request 2 from the person or entity seeking information. 3 Two, a signed permission from the priest involved 4 and, three, the permission o f the Chancellor or 5 the Vicar for Clergy." Was that the policy? 6 A That's the policy here. 7 Q So if I read this correctly, if a victim came and 8 said, "I want to see the priest's file and know 9 about his history," it would require all three o f 10 these things? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Archbishop, I have a number of documents where I 13 don't want to take the time to review them now, 14 but they reflect instances where you determined 15 and your office determined that a number of 16 priests were unfit for ministry because of sexual 17 abuse o f children, and you wrote -- and you 18 removed them from ministry or they were already 19 removed from ministry so that they wouldn't be 20 around kids. And there's a number o f files that 21 reflect that, as you have already stated, you 22 didn't have the power to remove them from the 23 clerical state, just from ministry and faculty, 24 which is a correct statement? 25 A Correct. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 105 00105 1 Q But there's also a number of documents that you 2 sent to the CDF urging the removal from the 3 clerical state and stating the reasons, that 4 there had been multiple accusations substantiated 5 o f sexual abuse, and the responses from the CDF 6 often times took months, if not years, and many 7 times there was no response. My question to you 8 is -- 9 MR. LO COCO: I'm going to object to 10 everything you just said. You want to smear the 11 church, go ahead. You want to show the Cardinal 12 a document, then show him a document or just 13 forget the prece and ask your question. 14 MR. ANDERSON: Give me that. 15 MR. LO COCO: Or let Mike ask the 16 questions. I know that doesn't fit your ego. Go 17 ahead. 18 BY MR. ANDERSON: 19 Q Let me rephrase it for you. When you made a 20 request to the CDF for removal o f priests from 21 the clerical state, were you satisfied with the 22 response you got and was it timely? 23 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form, 24 compound and overbroad. You can answer. 25 THE WITNESS: I'd rather not. I mean, Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 106 00106 1 do I have to? 2 MR. LO COCO: The problem I have with it 3 is it's so non-specific, Jeff. Give him an 4 example. It's just not a fair question. 5 MR. FINNEGAN: Is he choosing not to 6 answer? 7 THE WITNESS: I don't know if I 8 understand it. 9 MR. LO COCO: Than you don't have to 10 understand it. 11 MR. ANDERSON: I will come back to that 12 and just ask the question then on the topic, 13 okay? 14 BY MR. ANDERSON: 15 Q Is it correct to say that the Archbishop has the 16 power to tax each parish? 17 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form. I'm 18 going to instruct Cardinal Dolan not to answer 19 that. That has nothing to do with this, the 20 purpose o f this deposition. Next question. 21 MR. FINNEGAN: I think one o f your 22 objections on the t* ie 23 relationship between the Archdiocese and one o f 24 the parish people. I think it's completely 25 relevant. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 107 00107 1 MR. LO COCO: First o f all, you already 2 know that there's the ability to -- there is a 3 taxa that's been discussed. 4 MR. FINNEGAN: All you have to say is 5 yes. That's pretty basic. 6 MR. ANDERSON: But, Frank, it goes to 7 the issues that have been raised -- 8 MR. FINNEGAN: You are raising them. 9 This is your objection. 10 MR. ANDERSON: --by your side, so we 11 really have to just establish a question. It's a 12 simple question. 13 MR. LO COCO: She's already decided that 14 the parishes are separate from the Archdiocese. 15 MR. ANDERSON: This is different. This 16 is a different inquiry. 17 MR. FINNEGAN: This is control, not -- 18 MR. LO COCO: Next question. 19 MR. ANDERSON: Are you instructing him 20 not to answer? 21 MR. LO COCO: Yes. 22 BY MR. ANDERSON: 23 Q Is it correct to say the Archbishop has the power 24 to set the amount of the tax or the assessment to 25 a parish? Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 108 00108 1A I'm not sure what Canon Law says about that. 2 Canon law speaks about the cathedraticum, which 3 is the technical term for the expectation that 4 each parish would have to contribute to the 5 pastoral life of the Archdiocese. How that's 6 set, I'm not quite sure. 7 Q Okay. Is it correct to say that the Archbishop 8 requires an annual report from each parish? 9 A 10 Q An annual financial report, yes, it is. Does that also include the state of affairs o f 11 the parish or just the financials? 12 A The Canon Law would say that the Archbishop or 13 the Bishop would request from each parish a 14 financial and what's call a status animarum, the 15 state of the souls o f the parish, the number of 16 baptisms, first communions, parishioners, deaths, 17 marriages. 18 Q Is it correct to say that the Archbishop has the 19 power to set rules to regulate the conduct of 20 those working in the parish, including the choir 21 director? 22 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form, lacks 23 foundation. If you understand the question and 24 can give an answer, you are welcome to. And it's 25 compound. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 109 00109 1 THE WITNESS: Well, you mean would an 2 Archbishop o f a Diocese have the right to set 3 personnel policy or to hire and fire people in a 4 parish? 5 MR. ANDERSON: To regulate the conduct. 6 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form. I 7 have no idea what that means. 8 MR. ANDERSON: Pertaining to training 9 for sexual abuse, for example, o f employees. 10 THE WITNESS: We did that. We have that 11 safe -- What's the name o f the very rigorous 12 policy that is now --the safe environment 13 training, the safe environment training. We have 14 mandated that for all the parishes. If that's an 15 example o f what you mean, yes. 16 BY MR. ANDERSON: 17 Q Okay. So is it correct then to say that the 18 Archbishop does have the power to set rules to 19 regulate the conduct o f those working in a 20 parish? 21 A The Archdiocese --A Diocese would usually put 22 out a manual of expectations for the priests and, 23 I mean, that they be alive with the teaching of 24 the church and the values o f the gospel. 25 Q Is it correct to say the Archbishop has, as it Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 110 00110 1 pertains to, let's say, the sexual misconduct 2 policy, and what was it called, the safe what 3 program? 4 A The safeguarding -- safe environment program. 5 Q Safe environment program. Would that apply to 6 all the employees and volunteers in a parish? 7 A The safeguarding of God's children would be, yes. 8 Q Does the Archbishop have the power to mandate 9 specific training for all people working and 10 volunteering in the parishes? 11 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form, calls 12 for --I think it's vague. You can answer it, if 13 you understand it. 14 THE WITNESS: I think the Archbishop can 15 set a policy for the Archdiocese that this 16 training would be expected. 17 BY MR. ANDERSON: 18 Q And require compliance? 19 A And then we have the annual audit to see if we 20 are in compliance. 21 Q Is it correct to say the Archbishop has the power 22 to mandate background checks for each person 23 working and volunteering in the parishes? 24 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form. 25 THE WITNESS: Whether we have the power Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 111 00111 1 to, I don't know. We have done that. 2 BY MR. ANDERSON: 3 Q Is it correct to say the Archbishop has the power 4 to fire somebody, discharge somebody, working 5 within one o f the parishes who does not comply 6 with the requirements for training and the safe 7 environment program? 8 MR. LO COCO: I'm going to object to the 9 form o f the question. That calls for a legal 10 conclusion, and I don't think Cardinal Dolan is 11 qualified to answer that question the way you 12 have asked it. But if you have an answer, you 13 can answer it. 14 THE WITNESS: I can't fire somebody in a 15 parish. 16 BY MR. ANDERSON: 17 Q You can set a regulation that requires somebody 18 to abide by the rules o f the Archdiocese set by 19 you, and if they don't, they cannot work in the 20 Archdiocese? 21 MR. LO COCO: Kathy, I need the question 22 back. 23 MR. ANDERSON: Just let m e - - You have 24 to let me finish the question. 25 MR. LO COCO: I'm sorry. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 112 00112 1 BY MR. ANDERSON: 2 Q Is it correct to say that you have set 3 regulations and rules, and that if they are not 4 abided by pertaining to safe environment and 5 other similar things, that the person that is 6 hired or volunteered in a parish cannot work in 7 that parish unless they abide by that rule, 8 correct? 9 MR. LO COCO: I object to the form o f 10 the question, calls for a legal conclusion. I'm 11 not going to let him answer that question the way 12 you phrased it. Regulations, rules? I mean, 13 c'mon, Jeff. 14 BY MR. ANDERSON: 15 Q So you set protocols for training o f sexual 16 abuse, did you not? 17 A Yes, we did. 18 Q For all priests? 19 A For all priests. 20 Q All employees in parishes? 21 A Yes, volunteers. 22 Q And volunteers? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And you required compliance, did you not? 25 A Yes. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 113 00113 1 Q And if there was not compliance, they could not 2 then continue to work as an employee or volunteer 3 in a parish? 4 A They should not continue to work. 5 Q Is it correct to say the Archbishop has the power 6 to regulate the interactions -- Well, never mind. 7 I will withdraw the question. 8 The pastor in a parish is appointed by 9 the Bishop and carries out his ministry in the 10 name o f the Bishop, does he not? 11 A In the name o f Jesus Christ and the Bishop. 12 Q The Archbishop has the right -- Is it correct to 13 say the Archbishop has the right to transfer or 14 remove a priest? 15 A Yes. 16 MR. LO COCO: As long as it's a priest 17 that is one o f yours, though. 18 THE WITNESS: I mean a Diocesan priest, 19 yes. 20 BY MR. ANDERSON: 21 Q If it's a Religious Order priest and working in 22 the Archdiocese, it has to be with the permission 23 of the Ordinary, correct? 24 A The Bishop would provide faculties for the priest 25 to function. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 114 00114 1 Q And if the priest did not abide by the rules and 2 regulations promulgated by the Ordinary, the 3 Ordinary has the power to remove the faculties o f 4 the -- 5 A O f the priest. 6 Q -- of the Religious priest? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And, thus, not allow him to work or minister in 9 the Archdiocese? 10 A Then he would be unable to publicly exercise his 11 ministry. 12 Q Does the Archbishop have the right to terminate a 13 parish employee directly without doing so through 14 a pastor? 15 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form. If 16 you know. 17 THE WITNES S: I don't know. 18 BY MR. ANDERSON: 19 Q Is it correct to say that the Archbishop, as the 20 shepherd of the flock o f an Archdiocese, has 21 responsibility for every Catholic in the Diocese 22 and the care o f their souls? 23 A The care of the souls o f everybody, Catholic and 24 not. 25 Q Is it correct to say the Archbishop is Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 115 00115 1 responsible for seeing that the Archdiocese 2 programs and directives are faithfully carried 3 out on the local level and on the parish level? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Is it a correct statement to say that the 6 Archbishop o f the Archdiocese has direct 7 authority over all o f the works o f the apostolate 8 within his Diocese, even though this authority is 9 often exercised through others, such as pastors 10 and school administrators? 11 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form, 12 foundation. It's ambiguous. If you have an 13 answer, you can give it. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know. These are 15 very technical questions. It would seem to 16 require more o f a canonist than myself. 17 BY MR. ANDERSON: 18 Q Do you have a response to the question? Do you 19 feel able to answer it? 20 A I can't even remember the question. 21 Q I will ask it again. Is it correct to say the 22 Archbishop has direct authority over all o f the 23 works of the apostolate within the Diocese, even 24 though this authority is often exercised through 25 others, such as pastors and school Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 116 00116 1 administrators? 2 A It would not be accurate to say an Archbishop has 3 direct authority, although that might be 4 clarified by the second --the phrase that 5 that --that he would trust others to exercise 6 vigilance and shepherding on his behalf. 7 Q It's exercised through others, is that correct? 8 A It's exercised most o f the time through others. 9 MR. LO COCO: I need to put an objection 10 on the record to the last question, and that is 11 that it calls for an expert opinion, either a 12 Canon lawyer or civil lawyer or both. The answer 13 is on the record. 14 BY MR. ANDERSON: 15 Q Does the Archbishop have the power to require 16 background checks to.be done on the workers and 17 the volunteers at a parish? 18 MR. LO COCO: Objection, asked and 19 answered. I f you know. Same expert opinion 20 question. 21 THE WITNESS: I know we require them. I 22 know some people have threatened to sue us for 23 doing it, so whether I have the power to or not, 24 I don't know. We have the expectation that it's 25 done. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 117 00117 1 BY MR. ANDERSON: 2 Q But you did do it? 3 A We have done it. 4 Q And you did it because you wanted to protect 5 kids? 6 A I hope so. 7 Q And you actually required everybody to go through 8 background checks and training, right? 9 A 10 Q And renew it over and over again. And you received some criticism for having 11 implemented that, didn't you? 12 A The Bishops or me personally? 13 Q I don't know. Did you receive criticism? 14 A Yes. Yes, I did. 15 Q From --I don't need names, but from what 16 quarters, what elements? 17 A Mostly from volunteers who would say, "This is an 18 invasion o f privacy, this is way too much." We 19 would often times get objections from parents who 20 would say that in our attempt to give sensitive 21 and age appropriate training to their children on 22 how to recognize signs o f abuse, it was an 23 intrusion into parental authority. We got some 24 threats from people as far as civil rights and 25 personal rights. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 118 00118 1 Q And you answered those criticisms by saying, "I'm 2 the shepherd o f this flock," in effect, "and I'm 3 going to do it because it's the right thing to do 4 and I believe I have the power?" 5 A I hope so. 6 Q The Archbishop does appoint the Superintendent of 7 Schools, doesn't he? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Is it correct to say the Archbishop has 10 responsibility for Catholic and religious 11 formation in Catholic schools within the 12 Archdiocese? 13 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form. Can I 14 get that one back? 15 MR. ANDERSON: I will just read it 16 again. 17 BY MR. ANDERSON: 18 Q Is it correct to say the Archbishop has the 19 responsibility for Catholic religious formation 20 in Catholic schools within the Archdiocese? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Is it correct to say the Archbishop has the right 23 o f visitation over the schools in his 24 Archdiocese? 25 A You mean he has the right to visit the schools? Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 119 00119 1 Yes. 2 Q Is it correct to say the Archbishop o f a 3 Archdiocese possesses executive, legislative and 4 judicial power over matters within his 5 Archdiocese? 6 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form. It's 7 really broad. You can answer that, if you have 8 an answer. 9 THE WITNESS: Can I ask you, I mean, it 10 seems like I'm being asked about the Episcopal 11 Law Office. I thought this was a specific line 12 o f questioning about the Archdiocese o f Milwaukee 13 and the six and one-half years that I had the 14 honor o f being its shepherd. 15 MR. LO COCO: It is. This last question 16 is broadly related to the A-12 and A-13 cases 17 that are the subject, but if you have an answer, 18 answer it. If you don't, fine. 19 THE WITNESS: What was the question 20 again? 21 BY MR. ANDERSON: 22 Q Is it correct to say the Archbishop possesses 23 executive, legislative and judicial power over 24 matters within his Archdiocese? 25 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form, it's Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 120 00120 1 overbroad, it's ambiguous, it's vague. If you 2 understand it, you can provide an answer. 3 THE WITNESS: In those areas given to 4 him. We discussed earlier an area where I 5 didn't. 6 BY MR. ANDERSON: 7 Q Such as removal from the -- 8 A Such as the return to the lay state. 9 Q Is it correct to say an Archbishop can enact 10 legislation for his Archdiocese within the 11 parameters laid out in the general law of the 12 church? 13 A The general and particular law o f the church, 14 yes. 15 Q I think the program that you developed was called 16 the safe environment program? 17 A The safe environment program, yes. 18 Q And that applied to all employees and volunteers 19 in the schools? 20 A All right. 21 Q Is that correct? 22 A I can't take credit for that. That was a 23 national program. 24 Q But you did implement it as a part o f the Charter 25 Article 12 in the Archdiocese of Milwaukee? Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 121 00121 1 A 2 Q Yes, yes. And similarly with background checks, Charter -- 3 there's Charter Article 13 mandating background 4 checks for parishes, schools and other paid 5 personnel and volunteers. You implemented that, 6 did you not? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Okay. I'm going to turn back to showing you a 9 document here now to maybe be a little more 10 specific for you and at the request o f counsel. 11 This is marked Exhibit 019924, and this, on our 12 reading, is a letter from you to His Eminence, 13 Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, dated September 23, 14 2003. It pertains to a Father O'Brien. 15 A Um-hum. 16 Q In the first paragraph you state, "He has been 17 accused o f sexual abuse." In the second 18 paragraph you report he had been criminally 19 convicted o f effectively molesting a 17-year-old? 20 A Um-hum. 21 Q In the third you report that he acknowledged his 22 responsibility to the police and the civil court. 23 In the fourth you report that he requested to be 24 dispensed from all obligations, and in this 25 letter, as I read it, you are urging his Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 122 00122 1 dispensation, correct? 2 A Yes. 3 MR. LO COCO: Meaning return to the lay 4 state. 5 THE WITNESS: Right. 6 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. So is that correct 7 a correct statement, dispensation is return to 8 the lay state? 9 THE WITNESS: No, it would be the return 10 to the lay state. 11 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. I misspoke. Thank 12 you, Frank. 13 BY MR. ANDERSON: 14 Q The next exhibit is 039834. 15 A Um-hum. 16 Q And this is November 19, 2004. This is about one 17 year later, a response to you --excuse me -- a 18 letter from you to then His Eminence Joseph 19 Ratzinger, and in the fourth paragraph down you 20 state, "Subsequent to my earlier letter to you, 21 two additional allegations o f sexual abuse by 22 Father O'Brien have been reported," and at the 23 second page you write, "Moreover, I am convinced 24 that Father O'Brien is sincere and humble in 25 requesting dispensation." So it sounds like as I Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 123 00123 1 read this that they had not taken action and you 2 are now a year later urging it. Do you remember 3 this? 4 A I remember the name. I don't remember all the 5 chronology of the case. 6 Q Do you remember being frustrated about the delay 7 in response here? 8 A I would not use the word frustrated. I would say 9 I was eager to have it resolved. 10 Q I'm showing you now Exhibit 019938. This would 11 be again pertaining to O'Brien, and the year is 12 now September 6, 2005. You write to the 13 Congregation for the Doctrine at this time 14 Archbishop Amato? 15 A Um-hum. 16 Q Pertaining to O'Brien reporting he had been 17 convicted, it involved 14-year-old and at the 18 last paragraph you report, "Especially troubling 19 was a report that O'Brien had been observed on a 20 number o f occasions in the local library with 21 adolescent boys." I think you are expressing 22 alarm that he still was around youth and had not 23 been removed, correct? 24 A Um-hum. 25 Q Is that yes? Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 124 00124 1 A Yes, although laicization may not have stopped 2 that, but I just wanted him as dramatically out 3 o f the priesthood as possible. 4 Q And in the second page at the second paragraph 5 you state, "The potential for great scandal 6 exists?" 7 A Yes. 8 Q What was the potential here? 9 A That this --that the potential for scandal is 10 that this man has not been kicked out o f the 11 priesthood with all the drama that should 12 accompany that. 13 Q You go on to state, "If Father O'Brien, while 14 still in the clerical state, makes any 15 inappropriate advances on any o f these adolescent 16 boys in whose company he has been observed, the 17 outcry will be huge?" 18 A Um-hum. 19 Q "The scandal lies not in the laicization, but in 20 the perception that the church has not acted 21 expeditiously enough knowing the multiple reports 22 of abuse." 23 A Um-hum. 24 Q Were you o f the view when you urged and wrote 25 this that they just were too slow in responding Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 125 00125 1 to your sounding of the alarm? 2 A I would say that my impatience with the cases 3 being handled expeditiously would not have been 4 reserved to Rome. I would have the same 5 reservation with civil officials. I had the same 6 reservation with this. I had been eager to do 7 this for about the last three years and it's 8 taken that long to do it. So that impatience 9 would be targeted towards more people than just 10 Rome. But if you are asking me did I wish that 11 Rome had moved more quickly, I probably wished, 12 but most o f the time I was grateful for the 13 resolution that eventually did come, because I 14 found them amazingly sensitive; and, secondly, I 15 had to remind myself there are close to 3,000 16 Dioceses in the world and I was one o f them, so 17 that my cases were not the only ones. And, 18 thirdly, I at least knew that I had acted as 19 dramatically and as rigorous as possible in 20 removing him from the priesthood, and that was my 21 main --that's the power that I had, so I had 22 done it. 23 Q You expressed frustration about civil authorities 24 and impatience with failure to act. Did Michael 25 McCann or his office ever prosecute any priests Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 126 00126 1 reported by you or your office who had offended 2 solely on the basis o f the report and the 3 information given to him by your office, to your 4 knowledge, during your tenure? 5 A I cannot recall. 6 Q I just used the Father O'Brien example. There 7 are other examples, Cardinal, where you urged 8 removal from the clerical state and you wrote 9 letters. Do you have a memory o f other instances 10 like that o f O'Brien where it took --where you 11 had to write multiple letters before action was 12 taken? 13 A I can't recall. I would not deny that there was 14 a general sense o f eagerness to have these things 15 resolved as quickly as possible by Bishops in the 16 United States with also a realistic assessment 17 that we had been rigorous in our approach to it, 18 and that secondly Rome was doing everything 19 possible. Thirdly, that Rome was listening to 20 us, and when the dispositions did come, we 21 appreciated the resolution, it was usually the 22 one we had asked for, and that we knew that since 23 the -- with the tidal wave o f cases, Rome was 24 obviously avalanched with work to do and it was 25 doing the best it could. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 127 00127 1 Q As the Archbishop of Milwaukee and during your 2 tenure and having written to them and gotten some 3 o f the responses you did, did you ever personally 4 express to the head of the CDF that more needed 5 to be done and needed to be done quicker? 6 A I never had the occasion to meet with the Prefect 7 o f the Congregation o f the Doctrine of Faith on 8 any o f those cases that I can recall. 9 Q You may have answered this, but did you ever 10 personally go to Rome and meet with the Prefect 11 for the CDF or the Secretary urging action be 12 taken pertaining to any given priest or priests? 13 A I cannot recall. 14 Q Had you learned or did you become aware while the 15 Archbishop of Milwaukee that your predecessor, 16 Archbishop Weakland, had done so concerning 17 Lawrence Murphy? 18 A I can't remember. That he went, you mean? 19 Q Yes, that he met with the representatives o f the 20 CDF and the Secretary for the CDF urging that 21 action be taken? 22 A I wouldn't have known that from him. I didn't 23 talk to him about it. Whether I knew that by a 24 reference to the case or not, I can't recall. 25 Q Did you ever recall having any reason to or Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 128 00128 1 for --Let me rephrase it. 2 Did you ever review the Murphy file? 3 MR. LO COCO: What does that have to do 4 with this, Jeff? 5 MR. ANDERSON: Well, I think it has to 6 do with the practices. I'm just wondering if 7 there was a routine practice pertaining to files 8 where there were a number of priests. 9 MR. LO COCO: You asked Cardinal Dolan 10 hours ago about familiarizing himself, what he 11 reviewed, and he testified about his recollection 12 o f whether I reviewed summaries or the actual 13 files, I can't tell you right now. So it's -- 14 You are asking the same question, and -- let me 15 finish -- and Murphy is not part o f A -12 or A -13. 16 MR. ANDERSON: But it does have to do 17 with what actions are taken and not taken, what 18 files are reviewed and what aren't reviewed and 19 what practices are employed. If you want to 20 instruct him not to answer, I will move on. 21 MR. LO COCO: Well, it's an irrelevant 22 question. Murphy was deceased by the time 23 Cardinal Dolan got to Milwaukee. 24 THE WITNESS: I don't think I reviewed 25 the files, many files, o f dead priests. Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 129 00129 1 MR. ANDERSON: If you give me a moment 2 here, I think -- 3 MR. LO COCO: I would suggest that we go 4 o ff the record, let me check my notes so that 5 whenever you finish I can ask my clarification, 6 if I have any. 7 MR. FINNEGAN: We have less than ten 8 minutes. 9 VIDEOTAPE TECHNICIAN: We're now off the 10 record at approximately 5:02. 11 (A recess was taken.) 12 VIDEOTAPE TECHNICIAN: We're back on the 13 record at approximately 5:04 -- 5:09. 14 BY MR. ANDERSON: 15 Q All right, Cardinal. I don't have much left 16 here, but just a little bit. I have put before 17 you Exhibit 040048. It's a letter o f January 18 15th, 2008 from you as the Archbishop of 19 Milwaukee to then Most Reverend Angelo Amato o f 20 the Congregation pertaining to Reverend John 21 Wagner. In the first sentence you state one of 22 the norms and it's in Latin. If you would be so 23 kind as to pronounce that for us. 24 A Sacramentorum sanctitatis tutela. 25 Q And what does that stand for in Latin -- in Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 130 00130 1 English? 2 A I don't know. You got me. You are embarrassing 3 me. 4 Q Well, I didn't know, so it's not --In any case, 5 you are stating, "I am submitting once again for 6 your consideration the case o f a priest." I am 7 reading into that some frustration. Did you feel 8 it? 9 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form. 10 THE WITNESS: I can't remember what I 11 felt. 12 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. 13 THE WITNESS: Once again, I don't deny 14 that I was eager to have these cases resolved as 15 expeditiously as possible. 16 BY MR. ANDERSON: 17 Q At the -- in the middle o f it you write, "He has 18 now cut off all contact with representatives o f 19 the Archdiocese, so we have no way o f confronting 20 him on these additional reports, especially the 21 extremely disturbing one that he may still be in 22 contact with teenage boys." Do you remember 23 that? 24 A I don't remember that, no. 25 Q You go on to state, "Therefore, the liability for Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 131 00131 1 the Archdiocese is great, as is the potential for 2 scandal if it appears that no definitive action 3 has been taken." 4 A Um-hum. 5 Q "Pending state legislation to abolish 6 retroactively the statute o f limitations will 7 gain more supporters if it appears we are letting 8 these pending cases languish." 9 A 10 Q 11 Um-hum. As you wrote this -- Why did you write this? MR. LO COCO: Why did he write the 12 letter? 13 MR. ANDERSON: This part o f it. 14 MR. LO COCO: About the statute o f 15 limitations? 16 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm going to instruct 18 Cardinal Dolan not to answer that. That has 19 nothing to do with the deposition or the issues 20 that are in front o f us for A-12 and A-13. 21 BY MR. ANDERSON: 22 Q 23 Isn't the statute of limitations a part o f it? MR. LO COCO: This has to do with what 24 we have as lawyers euphemistically called 25 "windows legislation." That's not a part of Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 132 00132 1 this. A -12 was abused in the early '70s, A -13 2 late '70s. 3 MR. ANDERSON:Does your instruction 4 stand? 5 MR. LO COCO: Yes. 6 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. I have no further 7 questions. 8 EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. LO COCO: 10 Q Cardinal, I just have a few follow-up questions 11 for you. Well, I pulled out a document I wanted 12 to ask you about. Let me see if I can find it 13 here. Well, let me give you this one. It's a 14 document you were asked about earlier. The Bates 15 label is 121871, and I want to direct your 16 attention to this list o f priests, allegations 17 without substantiation. Do you see that, 18 Cardinal? 19 A I do. 20 Q The name 21 A Second, right. 22 Q And underneath his name it says, "Possible is second down? 23 mistaken identity," correct? 24 A Correct. It does say that. 25 Q In justice would it have been appropriate to Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 133 00133 1 identify an allegation against Father if, 2 in fact, it was a case o f mistaken identity? 3 A No. That's one o f the worries we had because, 4 unfortunately, we did have some cases o f mistaken 5 identity. That's what I tried to say earlier. 6 That was one o f the reasons that mitigated 7 against publishing simply an allegation. 8 Q While you were Archbishop o f Milwaukee, did you 9 meet with abuse survivors? 10 A Yes, I did. 11 Q Did you try to answer the questions that they 12 presented to you? 13 A Sure I did. 14 Q Did you know that you had staff people who were 15 meeting with abuse survivors that came forward? 16 A Well, not only did I know it, I wanted them to. 17 We had a full-time person who met with them. 18 Q And did you ever instruct anyone at the 19 Archdiocese o f Milwaukee, Dr. Cusack, the Victim 20 Assistance Coordinator, anyone who was dealing 21 with abuse survivors to not tell the truth to 22 people? 23 A No, unh-unh. 24 Q Did you instruct them to be forthcoming with 25 abuse survivors? Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 134 00134 1 A 2 Q Yes. I want you to assume some facts for my next 3 couple o f questions. I want you to assume that 4 Dr. Cusack testified about ten days or so ago. 5 She was asked some similar questions about the 6 published list and what information was included 7 and what information was not included. I want 8 you to further assume that she was asked whether 9 one o f the reasons -- She was asked about why the 10 dates o f assignment was not included in the list 11 o f priests that were identified, and I want you 12 to assume that among other things she said that 13 the dates o f assignment were an important part of 14 the substantiation process. If someone came 15 forward and said they were abused by Father So 16 and So and that priest was at a parish within a 17 year or so o f the allegation, that helped the 18 Archdiocese substantiate a claim of abuse, and if 19 the dates o f assignment were published, that 20 would take away that investigative tool. 21 My question is do you recall discussions 22 about that particular reason for not including 23 the dates o f assignment? 24 A Well, I recall that there were long discussions 25 about a bunch of reasons not to do that. Do I Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 135 00135 1 recall that was one o f them, not specifically, 2 no. 3 Q And did you have abuse survivors -- Strike that. 4 I think you answered that. 5 MR. LO COCO: That's all I have. Thank 6 you. 7 EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. ANDERSON: 9 Q Cardinal, would you agree that if the Archdiocese 10 had, in fact, disclosed to the public the history 11 o f molestation known to the Archdiocese o f the 12 substantiated offenders and a complete history 13 and made that public, that would have caused 14 great scandal? 15 MR. LO COCO: Object to the form. 16 THE WITNESS: What does that mean, that 17 I can -- 18 MR. LO COCO: You can answer it. I 19 think the term scandal is ambiguous, but if you 20 have an answer, you can answer. 21 THE WITNESS: You mean if the disclosure 22 of the names would have included -- 23 MR. ANDERSON: I will rephrase the 24 question so you understand the question. 25 Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 136 00136 1 BY MR. ANDERSON: 2 Q If the Archdiocese had when they had published 3 the names also published publicly the history 4 known to the Archdiocese, what they had known 5 about when they abused and where and what the 6 Archdiocese had done about it, in other words, 7 the history known to the Archdiocese, is it 8 correct to say that if such a disclosure would 9 have been made as contained in the files, it 10 would have caused great scandal? 11 MR. LO COCO: Same objections. In 12 addition, it calls for speculation, lacks 13 foundation. If you have an answer, you can give 14 it. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, recalling those 16 days, I don't know how it would have been 17 possible to have caused more scandal. I mean, 18 the church was --there was scandal all over the 19 place, and most o f it was out there anyway. So 20 every day there were articles in the newspaper 21 about this priest, what he had done 30 years ago 22 and what parishes and interviews with the 23 victims, so I don't know how there could have 24 been more scandal. I was told not to release the 25 names because it would -- the names because it Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 137 00137 1 would cause scandal. I said, "Well, I don't know 2 how it can get worse and I think the people need 3 to hear this, and if people in the know are 4 telling me this is a good thing to do, I think we 5 should do it." 6 Q Why weren't -- Why wasn't the history known to 7 the Archdiocese concerning each o f these 8 offenders then publicly disclosed at the time the 9 names were? 10 A I can't -- 11 MR. LO COCO: Objection, asked and 12 answered. 13 THE WITNESS: I can't recall the reason. 14 MR. ANDERSON: That's all I have. 15 MR. LO COCO: Thank you, Cardinal. I 16 have nothing else. 17 VIDEOTAPE TECHNICIAN: This is the end 18 of Videotape No. 3 and the conclusion of the 19 deposition o f Cardinal Dolan. We are now o ff the 20 record at approximately 5:20 on February 20, 21 2013. 22 MR. LO COCO: O ff the video record we 23 have to do one more thing, and you don't have to 24 let me know today, we have to let Kathy know. 25 The law gives you the chance to do something Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 138 00138 1 called reading and signing. You get to read this 2 deposition and see if Kathy got it down right and 3 then sign it in front o f a notary, if you make 4 any changes, or you can waive that right. I will 5 tell you that most people in our jurisdiction 6 waive it, Kathy is excellent and you probably 7 don't need one more thing to do, but if you do 8 want to read and sign it, it's your right. You 9 can waive it or not. 10 THE WITNESS: Jim, what's your advice? 11 MR. MC CABE: I would say given the fact 12 it's on videotape, you can waive it. 13 MR. LO COCO: Since it's on videotape, 14 you can simply waive it. 15 THE WITNESS: Sure. 16 (At 5:21 p.m. the deposition concluded.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 139 00139 1 STATE OF WISCONSIN ) 2 MILWAUKEE COUNTY 3 ) I, KATHY A. HALMA, Registered 4 Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and for the 5 State of Wisconsin, do hereby certify that the video 6 deposition of CARDINAL TIMOTHY M. DOLAN, was taken 7 before me at the New York Archdiocean Offices, 1011 1st 8 Avenue, New York, New York, on the 20th day of 9 February, 2013, commencing at 1:30 in the afternoon. 10 That it was taken at the instance o f the 11 Claimants upon verbal interrogatories. 12 That said statement was taken to be used 13 in an action now pending in the UNITED STATES DISTRICT 14 COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF WISCONSIN BANKRUPTCY 15 COURT in which the ARCHDIOCESE OF MILWAUKEE is the 16 Debtor. 17 18 APPEARANCES JEFF ANDERSON & ASSOCIATES, PA, 366 19 Jackson Street, Suite 100, St. Paul, Minnesota, 55101, 20 by MR. JEFF ANDERSON and MR. MICHAEL G. FINNEGAN, 21 jeff@andersonadvocates.com and 22 mike@andersonadvocates.com, appeared on behalf of the 23 Certain Personal Injury Claimants. 24 WHYTE HIRSCHBOECK DUDEK, S.C., 555 East 25 Wells Street, Suite 1900, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 53202, Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 140 00140 1 by MR. FRANCIS H. LOCOCO, flococo@whdlaw.com, appeared 2 on behalf o f the Debtor. 3 ALSO PRESENT: MR. JERRY TOPCZEWSKI, 4 Milwaukee Archdiocese; and MR. JAMES P. McCABE, General 5 Counsel, Archdiocese o f New York. 6 That said deponent, before examination, 7 was sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and 8 nothing but the truth relative to said cause. 9 That the foregoing is a full, true and 10 correct record o f all the proceedings had in the matter 11 of the taking of said deposition, as reflected by my 12 original machine shorthand notes taken at said time and 13 place. 14 15 16 17 Notary Public in and 18 for the State o f Wisconsin 19 20 Dated this 22nd day o f February, 2013, 21 Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 22 23 24 25 Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan Page 141