(The following is a transcript of the testimony of SWAMI 2 DEVAGEET, aka Charles Harvey Newman, taken on 10-18-85, befo rr 3 the Wasco County Grand Jury; Messrs Robert Hamilton and Byro 4 Chatfield in attendance:) 5 6 SWAMI DEVAGEET was thereupon produced as a witness and, 7 being first duly sworn by the Foreman of the Grand Jury, was 8 examined and testified as follows: 9 (by Mr. Chatfield) For the record, if you would, I0 would you state your full name and spell it for the court II reporter? I2 A Swami Devageet. S-w~a-m-i, And I3 I'm also known as Charles Harvey Newman, I4 Is that your legal name? I5 A Yeah. 16 The previous T7 A No, the legal name is Charles Harvey Newman. IB Okay. And how would you like me to address you? Y9 A Devageet. Z0 Okay. My name is Byron Chatfield. I am an Assista Z1 Attorney General for the State of Oregon, and I am also appo`nt< 22 for this particular matter as a special Deputy District Atto neg 23 for Wasco County. And I'm sure you are obviously aware of Z4 the investigation that is going on by this body, the Wasco Z5 County Grand Jury, into alleged criminal violations that hav been made. Right off the bat, I was talking earlier with attorneys that have had contact with you and on the record 3 I would like to state to you that, as I understand it, there 4 was some concern with respect to dentistry or along those 5 lines. I would represent to you, Swami Devageet, that as 6 far as any inquiry into dentistry or anything along those 7 lines, the Grand Jury is not making an inquiry with respect 8 to any of your dentistry practices or anything along those 9 lines. If we do get into that area, the only thing that we 10 would be getting into is any explanation as to how you would 11 have some relationship or acquaintance and contact with the I2 Bagwan; do you understand? I3 A Yes, I understand that. i I4 Very good. As I mentioned to you, the grand jury I5 is investigating a number of different allegations of crimin T6 activity. Certainly, you are appearing here subject to a 77 subpoena and the grand jury needs the cooperation of witness T8 appearing before it. And, as we are going along, please fee free if you don't understand a question clarification is needed, please let me know. Also, if there ZY is information as we progress along that you feel is importa 22 to the grand jury in assisting them in making some decisions Z3 that they have to make, I would appreciate it if you would Z4 please feel free to disclose that information to them. I'm Z5 sure that you are aware that the grand jury has certain resp ns ibilities to make inquiries into allegations of criminal i activity and for them to evaluate that and make those decisi ns 3 and without information, accurate information, direct inform 4 tion, they have problems in being able to do their responsib`l-- 5 ity. 6 A Sure. And I'm here to help in every way I can. 7 Thank you very much. So this is not a surprise to 8 you, following your appearance here today, we will be issuin 9 another subpoena to you. I don't know whether that's been 10 explained to you previously, but I will do that now for your II benefit. The grand jury is investigation is an on-going I2 investigation. During the course of our investigation it I3 may become necessary for us to have you return to amplify I4 on maybe some of your answers that you give today or to I5 elicit further information that, although it might not seem Y6 important right at this specific time, it may become very Y7 important later on for you to come back. The date that we YB have selected is somewhat arbitrary in the sense that it can Y9 be subject to change, depending on your schedule and dependi Z0 on ours; however, that will be the date that you would plan ZT on being present before the grand jury, unless you hear othe 22 wise and other arrangements are made; do you understand? Z5 A Sure. Z4 Okay. The other thing that I want to do is point Z5 out to you also that the grand jury is supervised by the I I circuit court. These are confidential proceedings; basicall 2 what happens here is that information is disclosed to the 3 grand jury and it remains here with the grand jury. Obvious 4 there is a court reporter taking down the information; howev 5 I want to point out to you that what goes on here, since it 6 is confidential, it's not something that is to go beyond the 7 doors, and disclose that in the event in trying to preven 8 maybe some innocent or inadvertent disclosure on your part. 9 This is not a gag order by any stretch of the imagination. I0 I just want to warn you that since it is supervised by the II circuit court and it is a confidential proceeding, just so I2 you are aware of it, if in fact there is some need to disclo I3 that information I would only suggest that you contact your I I4 attorney for somebody that would represent you and discuss I5 that matter with them. I'm not giving you legal advice, it's I6 just to let you know. I7 A Thank you. IS Now, what I would like to do first of all is to have \9 the grand jury get some idea of who you are; your occupation, Z0 a little bit about your background; if you would just tell Z1 us a little bit about yourself. 22 A I'm 47 years old. I was born in England, in London. Z3 I was trained in dentistry in Edinburgh, Scotland; attended 24 the university and medical school and dental school for six Z5 years there. I practiced in England as a dentist for 15, 16 I years. I also practiced dentistry in the course of that time 2 in Australia for a couple of years and returned back to Engl%nd. 3 I have been married twice. I have four children. My presen} 4 wife is at Rajneeshpuram. I am basically a happy sort of 5 fellow and What else do you want to know? 6 I think that gives us a good idea. I'll use this 7 as my term-- Are you a "follower" or maybe a more correct 8 term, a "disciple" of the Bagwan Shree Rajneesh? 9 A I love the man. I0 How long have you been acquainted with the man? 11 A Ten years. 12 And during that period of time have you had an occa ion I3 to become close, have close contact with him? 14 A Yes. 15 Can you tell us a little bit about the nature I6 how it came about that you were acquainted with him; where Y7 that was at and how long you have been at Rajneeshpuram? T8 A Yeah. I first became close to Bagwan when I took Y9 sanyas; that's the first actual contact is when I was given Z0 the mala that's this (indicating), and he gave me my new ZT name. And then after that in those days it was possible Z2 you could still meet him at even darshans with about 30 othe 23 people, then he would speak directly to you, so I had close Z4 contact in 1976 when I first took sanyas. And then in 1977 Z5 when I went and stayed for a period of maybe five months. I It was first in the company of 30 or 40 people, and then in i 1979 I went and I decided that I would like to spend the rest 3 of my life close to this man and be part of his work. And i 4 when I got there I was willing to do any work, and a dental 5 surgery had just been built. And I became the ashram dentis 6 and I did that work in India for maybe one year, and then 7 Bagwan's caretaker, Vivek, was speaking to me one day about I 8 the value of hand brushing over mechanical brushing and 9 um later that day I went in and saw Bagwan for a dental IO examination for the first time. And then after that for tha II period of time until he left India I was called from time I2 to time to do dental work on him. Now that was the closest.. I3 But although he was close physically, verbally very little I4 took place. It may be hard to understand, but Bagwan is I5 basically a silent person; although he was there and his teeth I6 were there, very little else took place. So that may be a I7 point which is a little tricky to understand, but when Bagwa I8 was there it's usually for the particular job in hand and I9 it's not a conversational space, you know. It's that's Z0 a little difficult, unless you have actually met the man hims 2I Maybe that is a little difficult to understand. 22 A Un--huh. 23 Is that necessarily something that happens all the 24 time? 25 A It's it's a sort of it's a presence effect. I You very much feel that unless you are invited to speak 2 there is very little he doesn't know anyway. It's really 3 an understanding rather than an instruction. I can't really 4 elaborate on that. Although he's never said "Don't say anyt ing 5 to me", but it's been very made very clear to the people 6 who are close, like Vivek, he is not involved in small thing 7 you know. 8 How long have you lived at Rajneeshpuram? 9 A Approximately four years. IO And there was some mention of Lao Tzu house; are II you familiar with that? 12 A Yes. I3 What does that mean to you; what is your understanding i 14 of that? \5 A It's usually the place where Bagwan resides. I6 Do others reside there also? T7 A Um-- Lao Tzu house is the place where he lived in '8 India and it used to be the name of where he lives now, but YQ in India people lived there on more or less a permanent basis, Z0 like they actually lived there. Here it's not like that at Z1 all. There are about two people who live there in the sense 22 that they stay there most of the time, but then there is a Z3 rotation basis, it's more like a residential area where peopl 2* stay on a rotational basis, so at any one time a group of 25 people, anyone of which are there, but you can't be sure the fj are there; it just depends on the rotation. 2 Do you hold any particular positions there at 3 Rajneeshpuram or have you during the four years that you hav 4 lived there? 5 A You mean positions of authority? 6 Authority or any other way that you would character mean, at the moment I am vice--chancellor of 9 the university; that's probably the first thing the first I0 position I've ever held. I've done all sorts of work there, YY but I would never say that I had any position there. I2 You are acquainted with a person by the name of I3 Sheela? i T4 A Yep. 15 How long have you been acquainted with her? *6 A From the very first day I went to the ashram in Poo a. 17 And what was the nature of your acquaintance with IB her from that point on, if you can just elaborate a little *9 bit on that? 20 A Well, the very first day I went to Poona to the ash am 21 there, the very first thing I did is participated in the dyna i 22 meditation that takes place between 6:30 and 7:30 and I then Z3 had some breakfast and went ot make an appointment to see Z4 Bagwan. I didn't know where to go. So the first room I popped 25 into happened to be Sheela's room and she was there with her I i I husband at the time, Swami Chinmaya, and they were both sortw of sitting on the bed, I think, and I said, "Where appointment to see Bagwan?", and Sheela said 4 she was friendly, very nice she said, "Oh, just go down 5 the corridor and see Laxmi And Chinmaya asked 6 a couple questions, "Where are you from?" "How long are you 7 going to be there?", and stuff like that. And that was my 8 first contact. And whenever I came there she was always 9 involved in the administrative positions, she most of the I0 time I would have recognized her as Laxmi's primary assistan . I1 If Laxmi wasn't around, Sheela was doing Laxmi's work. When 12 I started work as a dentist, her attitude to me was not 13 very understandable. In the sense that I think she invited I4 me I can't remember who invited me directly to work there, I5 but like within two or four days I was being criticized for T6 purchasing this and purchasing that, and which I hadn't done, T7 so it was a strange situation and I sort of clarifie T8 it with her, but that relationship with Sheela never really 79 changed. I felt that she didn't actually like me personally. Z0 And she made that fairly clear as the years went on, but no, ZT those days I had almost no cotact with her; but on a sort 22 of personal level she didn't like me. I personally, as far 23 as she was concerned, had no reason not to like her, but it 24 was tricky because she was antagonistic towards me. Z5 Would you describe you mentioned it became worse (I I later on, if I understood you correctly. 2 A Yes. 3 Would you describe that and what occurred to you 4 at Rajneeshpuram? 5 A Well, for instance when I came to Rajneeshpuram, 6 I was doing all sorts of work and things, and then there would 7 be times when Puja, who used to be her righthand lady?~- 8 Whose right hand lady? 9 A Sheela's right hand lady. I had more contact with I0 Puja than I did with Sheela. But occasionally Sheela would II want something done and Puja would arrange it through me. I2 And it was always done in a peremptory way, "Come now, do I3 it in the lunch break, stay late something like that. I4 And there was one occasion in particular where I was involve I5 in some work and Sheela had wanted some dental work done, I6 tooth cleaning or something, and we had arranged a particula I7 time and we had arranged the ranch is a very open and barren I8 place and it was very open and barren in those days particul rk I9 And we arranged for me to be picked up and brought down to Z0 the clinic to do this work and I was left out there in the 2I rain for about 45 minutes. Then when I phoned up to see wha 22 was happening I was told to just get a taxi. Well, it's 29 tricky to get a taxi, and I said, don't feel like doing 24 this work now." And the sort of response that came back fron Z5 that was um "You got a pretty horrible attitude. If i Sheela wants you, you could come now; but even if you did 2 come now she doesn't want you to do that way, you know, 3 that sort of funny twisted thing. On other occasions she 4 would there was an occasion where a friend of mine from 5 Australia had phoned about something or other and she had 6 misrepresented, and in this particular instance she was sayi 7 that I had phoned through to Australia many times from the 8 ranch to try and get this particular friend of mine to come 9 to the ranch; it was totally untrue, and yet that story I0 circulated. It was like on a trivial basis, and yet I never II felt in any way that I could get a fair hearing from Sheela I2 or any true result from her about me, and It was on that I3 sort of level. And then which this was early days, 1982, I4 83. Whenever I went to Jesus Grove, which is where she live I5 she would never on a simple level, never say hello or thin 16 like that, she would avoid speaking to me; keep you waiting 17 if you needed to see her, hanging about while she was it T8 was a sort of low-grade harassment. On another occasion I I9 went down there was a sort of harassment at the place I Z0 was working at, too. We needed a telephone and sort of a 21 desk diary, simple stuff, and they were taken away, which ZZ made our work particularly difficult. And then I went down, Z3 I spoke to Puja. These were basic things we really needed 24 to help us, and it became a big deal and I was called to see Z5 Sheela down at Jesus Grove again, like being called to see I (I Sheela at Jesus Grove was never a simple affair, she was surrounded by people that reinforced everything she said and 3 were there to make you feel insecure, insignificant and wrong, 4 basically. And on this particular occasion it was made very 5 clear to me that there would be no telephone and the desk 6 diary simply wouldn't be forthcoming. It was trivial stuff, 7 yet blown up into major proportions. And then the first time 8 it became apparent that she really was antagonistic was May 9 1984, somewhere around there, I can't be that specific, but I0 somewhere around there. There had been a suggestion on the II part of Deveraj and myself that a small dental room that was 12 being used was really inadequate in the case of an emergency, I3 because Bagwan's health is precarious; in the event of an I4 emergency, which could mean cardiac arrest or a breathing I5 difficulty or anything like this because he is a chronic Y6 asthmatic, it would be very tricky to actually manuver any Y7 apparatus around in that tiny room, so we were trying to get T8 the room enlarged and maybe make it into an intensive care V9 unit, too, if it was needed. And the obstruction we met fro Z0 Sheela was was just incredible. She delayed, she denied, Z1 on all sorts of grounds. "There's not enough money", "We 22 can't do this and not do that". And yet money was very Z3 apparent in other places. And even in small things like 24 extending the present room that was there, which involved Z5 very little, moving the wall over a couple feet, it was a I a small wall. It took ages before the actual thing took plac . 2 And what actually did take place was the very least that she 3 could arrange. Like no ICU or anything like that, but simply 4 the wall was moved across and it took six to eight weeks to 5 get it moved. It was simple, necessary and quite clear, and 6 yet the tremendous objections involving meetings, going down 7 to Jesus Grove, Sheela sitting in her bed surrounded by her people, and it was very much of an inquisitorial nature which 9 was always brought down to a personal level; the thing that IO you had gone for was swiftly disregarded and you were made II very quickly to feel that you it was you trying to get I2 something from Sheela and that you personally were a pretty I3 worthless person. It's hard to describe this, but it was I4 basically a mental undermining process which she became very I5 skilled at. And she was always surrounded by people who woul reinforce her and diminish you. And she had certain techniqu s, T7 like the moment you started speaking about the thing you want d, T8 you would be interrupted; there was no way that you could T9 actually speak what you had to say. And then even if you Z0 did manage to get out something, it would immediately be ZT denied or criticized on whatever level, so there was this ZZ pressure to simply say nothing and accept what she had to 25 say. It was, as I say, a particular technique which becomes Z4 apparent now. All you knew was that you couldn't quite under Z5 stand why it was so difficult to get something done which was obvious, so obviously necessary. And again that was, say, early May, may have been late April. And then came a situati 3 whre this is where it actually focused. There was a conju c- 4 tivitis scare. One person, Deveraj's wife, Hasya, was in 5 Koran Grove, which was our medical place, and she was there 6 with something wrong with her neck. She has a slipped disk 7 in her neck. And it seems she was almost ready for a release 8 and she mentioned to someone one of her eyes was 9 red. And at that time, just that morning, a new machine had I0 arrived in the clinic, some machine, and nobody knew how I1 to use it. I've only learned this lately, how this thing I2 happened. Anyway, Puja asked somebody how it worked, and 13 that she was given some instruction, that you put a drop of 14 flourisine and you look at the eyeball through the polarized IS and get little blobs of flouresence if there is any damage I6 to the cornea. This, she "she" meaning Puja interprete Y7 as being conjunctivitis. She saw some blobs on Hasya; immed- \8 iately sent out a call for Deveraj and myself to be brought T9 in and tested. We were tested and found to have blobs and Z0 put into Koran Grove like so swiftly there was no chance to ZY tell anybody anything or get any clothes, it was just very Z2 swift. The call went out somewhere around in fact, it was lunchtime; before lunchtime had finished we were in Koran Z4 Grove. Now, none of us had any but there was some Z5 blobs as seen by the machine. Then everybody in the house 1 was tested and most of us were found to have blobs. 2 You say "most of us in the house"; which house are 3 you talking about? 4 A Lao Tzu house. At that time I was working as a 5 gardner in the mornings and editor in the afternoons. So 6 everybody from the house who was working at that time up ther 7 was tested; most of them were found to have blobs in the 8 and were incarcerated in Koran Grove. Then a few hours went 9 past, and it seemed almost as if it was just the people from IO the house who were there. And then a few people from Jesus 11 Grove were tested and they were also brought to Koran Grove. 12 And then other people were tested and within 24 hours there I3 were perhaps two or three hundred people in Koran Grove, and 14 within two days there were about eight hundred people in Kora 15 Grove; and, within three days, 90% of the ranch residents 16 were in the grove. It was there were more people in the 17 grove than there were outside the grove. And this was alread 18 creating a problem and nobody had any they were 19 just blobs on the machine. And it became very clear from Z0 other doctors that this wasn't a disease. This was pseudo-- 21 disease, this was a mistake, if you like; which in no way was 22 recognized by Sheela or Puja as being a mistake. It seems 23 from people that knew, the doctors, this machine measures Z4 damage to the cornea, it doesn't measure bacteria invasion 25 of the cornea. Damage to the cornea can happen with dust or anything. Where we live is a dusty place and obviously everybody had dust in the eyes and everybody was locked up 3 that had dust in the eyes. If you mentioned you have dust 4 in the eyes and this is a strange disease, nobody seems to 5 be sick or anything, you were called negative, you were subje tec 6 to sort of mental harassment and subjected to a form of harass- 7 ing that I told you about before. Now there was an occasion 8 while we were there at this point Sheela put out the word 9 --~and by that I mean virtually everybody knew that there T0 was an epidemic of conjunctivitis. It was also clear that IT the doctors didn't regard it in quite the same way, put it 12 that way, but that was not ever put out. And on the second T3 day that I was there, early one morning Deveraj and I receive T4 a call from Lao Tzu house saying that Bagwan had a problem, I5 he was in pain. It may have been a dental problem, it may T6 have been a medical problem. So we were both asked to go T7 up there to see him. This created an enormous effect on YB Sheela. There was a conference call, and there were so many Y9 people on the line, Puja on the line, Vidya was on the line, Z0 Sheela was on the line and others were on the line Shanti Zi Bhadra, I think, was on the line all trying to decide 22 whether we ought to go up and whether it would be more danger 23 to go up to see him because of the conjunctivitis or whether 24 that It was basically, it seemed, very clear that they 25 were trying to find reasons for us not to go up, rather than 17 trying to make it safe for us to go up. Anyway, finally, 2 after perhaps an hour on the telephone of all sorts of stran 3 strange reasons anyway, we finally it was decided we 4 could go up, provided that we wore hats, gloves, masks, 5 spectacles, shoes, a full a full operative outfit, 6 Who decided you could go up then? 7 A Sheela, finally. And when we got up there, the hous 8 was being um was the word. It looked as if 9 it was being ransacked. Everything from the rooms that we !0 used were had been taken away, personal items had been II lost, thrown away; the place was in a total turmoil a IZ turmoil of "cleaning", ostensibly, but the cleaning involved I3 like the walls and the sinks and But it was a very strange I4 procedure. Now we couldn't exactly tell this as the first I5 time as we came in. We were asked to take our clothes off 16 in the mud room. We were then kept waiting in the mud room, I7 which is a pretty cold place, absolutely naked for perhaps F8 15, 20 minutes while they decided which bathroom we could I9 go in to use the shower. Both bathrooms were being cleaned Z0 at that time, or so we were told. We were finally told we ZT could go into one bathroom and then we went into that bathroo 22 and then half way through it we were told we had to go use 23 the other bathroom, and then we trooped down the corridor 24 and used the other bathroom. Then we were told there were 25 no towels available for us, they were all being cleaned. And I finally one person gave us a towel for us to use between us, 2 which is a strange procedure when you consider that you are 3 trying to be kept antiseptic. Anyway, we used this one towel 4 and then we got dressed. And we did an examination, and then 5 after that we went back to Koran Grove, and again the same 6 sort of harrasment. We all our clothes, the moment we had 7 taken them off, were washed and they, of course, weren't dry 8 by the time we came out; so there we were naked once again 9 waiting for our clothes to dry, using the same towel and thin s. IO But anyway our clothes were given to us after a time and II we went back to Koran Grove. That in itself was a fairly 12 harassing procedure. But once we got back to the grove, we I3 were then called in to a room where Savita was, and Julian, i I4 and I can't remember those of Sheela's people, who was 15 there there was also a lady, Chetna there; Vivek, Deveraj I6 and myself. And we were subjected to a very virulent attack I7 verbal attack about how could be we so disgusting, unlovin YB uncaring about Bagwan's body that we would go up there while Y9 we were suffering with this conjunctivitis and subject him Z0 to such risks; even though the decision had come from her. ZY And the fact that nobody had any anyway was obviousl ZZ brought up, and that met wiht a great deal of abuse about 23 how we were being negative and obviously there was a conjunc- 24 tivitis epidemic going on and any evidence to the contrary 25 was immediately, in this technique I told you about, was immediately stopped and a personal character attack was made. I And Julian in particular, I'd never seen Julian in this lighg 2 before; I had never seen him at a meeting like this before i 3 was very very virulent, and Savita was incredibly virulen . 4 I mean by that, name--calling, insulting, very demeaning. An 5 this meeting went on for maybe an hour, hour and a halfbecame very clear that any division that was 7 there was between people who listened to what Sheela had 8 to say and took her judgments unquestioningly, or people who 9 felt that Bagwan and Bagwan's awareness was rather more I0 comprehensive than Sheela's view of thingsthat point that you could almost see two camps and they I2 virtually became more apparent later, though; the people that I3 were close to Bagwan from Lao Tzu house, some of whom lived I4 there and some of whom worked there, and the people that carr'ed I5 out Sheela's orders. I6 You say "people that carried out Sheela's orders"; I7 who were these people that she surrounded herself with that I8 were close to her? You mentioned about a split; who are we I9 talking about? 20 A Names? ZI Yes, please. Z2 A Julian, Su, Shanti B. Shanti Bhadra, her name Z3 is. Puja, from the very beginning. Krishna Deva. Sagun. 24 Rikta. That's all I can recall offhand. But it wasn't that 25 simple, there were those who were close and there were those i I who were not so close but close, and those again it sort 2 of went out. (indicating) 3 Would you consider those people that you named to 4 be those that she confided in? 5 A I never I can't tell you that first hand because 6 I never was in the situation of any confidence with them 7 myself. I can only say when I was down there at meetings, 8 the people that supported her were these people and sometimes 9 and Vidya, of course, I'd forgotten Vidya; Vidya was very Y0 close. II And Ava? I2 A Ava came later and was Puja's assistant. She certai ly I3 was taking part in these meetings from l984 onwards, mid--l984, i 14 she was present at these things to do with Koran Grove. Yeah, YS there were Ava it was a large group. And it was diffic lt I6 to know whether they were there because they were friendly T7 to Sheela, whether they were confidants of Sheela or whether 78 they were there for the particular purpose of that particular 79 meeting where I might have been there. It was hard to know Z0 that because I never was in Jesus Grove other than being ZT summoned there. 22 You mentioned that when you went up there the house 23 looked like it was ransacked, things had been gone through? Z4 A Yes. 25 Were you living up there at that time? 2 I A I have a bed space up there that I use roughly ever 2 four days, so there were my clothes and belongings there, toj. 3 Were there other people that had 4 A Personal belongings? 5 Yes. 6 A Everyone. Things were missing, things were ransacke . 7 You couldn't tell the difference between things which weren' 8 there and things that were. Totally like there were big 9 piles of stuff here and there. Things that you knew were I0 yours just weren't there and some things were lost. II Were you aware of any, you know, wire taps? I2 A Not at that time, but perhaps three days after that. I3 The moment when we came out from now the coming out of I4 Koran Grove was, again, a bit strange in the sense that I5 virtually everybody was locked up. When I say "locked up", I6 they weren't actually locked doors, but you were actually I7 you were all meant to be sick. And there were hordes of peop e, I8 hundreds and hundreds of people down at Koran Grove. And I9 then there were the upstairs of Socrates Building was Z0 housing people who were sick. There were various other domi- 7 cilliary areas that were full of people that were meant to Z2 be sick. Virtually 90%, I would say, of the ranch residents 23 and people visiting were all sick. And nobody had any s. Z4 Like this was very strange, plus the fact the place 25 who was going to cook the food? Who was going to do the 1 laundry and stuff? And so on. About the fifth day it becam 2 absolutely unworkable at least, this is again an opinion. 3 I assume it became unworkable. But people began to be relea ed. 4 Now it was obvious that the people who had come in first wou 5 be the ones that were released first because it was again 6 clear we were being tested twice a day and there were no 7 between any of us and even the blobs had virtually 8 vanished because we weren't out in the dust anymore, we were 9 indoors. So about the fifth day we were being released, and 10 there was a sort of reluctance to test us. Before you could 11 be released, you had to be tested, and we were down the line. gg Well, finally we got released. And then I went up to the I3 house to do my gardening thing, and the people who were clean`ng 14 were still there. And a very ugly meeting took place. Boy, 15 that meeting was something else. When you're talking about 16 bugging and wiretapping, it was at this point after this 17 meeting that I actually haven't spoken about. I went into 18 the garden, and there I saw Julian under the trailer where 19 Vivek lives. Under her room there was sort of a trench had 20 been dug and he was there in what I call a boiler suit, sort Z1 of a one--piece coverall, and he was doing things. He looked 22 startled, because there was I watering plants and things. 23 Julian doesn't do that sort of work, basically Julian was Z4 the coordinator of a very large department involving everythi Z5 from television through sound recordings, through most of I the communications network involving telephones. He was the 2 head coordinator of this department, the sound department. 3 There he was under the trailer digging and wiring and doing 4 all sorts of stuff which I don't have any detailed knowledge 5 of, and inside the trailer directly above him was the guy 6 who normally puts the telephones in. Now, at the time it 7 struck me as being rather strange that Julian was up to the 8 elbows in mud and filth and this fellow that was normally 9 up to the elbows in mud and filth was putting inside whatever I0 it was inside. And I made the natural assumption that it I1 was telephone work, but it was totally different to any form I2 of telephone work, because the normal guy that puts the tele- I3 phone in, the person inside the room, was Rajendra; he put T4 the telephones in on his own, and we had telephones anyway, T5 and what is Julian doing under the house up to his elbows T6 in mud fixing up telephones when we had telephones. It was T7 strange. And it was directly under Vivek's bed. Her telepho lg isn't there, her telephone is on another wallthose situations where at the time you just see some- 20 body working and when you think about it later you think that's a bit strange. And later I found, like in the last four week 22 five weeks, that that was precisely the situation, where ther 23 was some kind of microphone under Vivek's bed. Now, we had Z4 just had this confrontation with Julian who had been in the Z5 ward and here was Julian under the trailer. I didn't even 1 24 I know he was out of Koran Grove. 2 Was he in Koran Grove because of the problem, too, 3 or do you know? 4 A I can only assume that. All I know was the only 5 time I saw him there was where we had this meeting where we 6 were castigated for going up to the house. Now there he was 7 under the trailer doing this stuff. And I didn't know he was out, but obviously there he was. And since we had this 9 confrontation I had had this confrontation with him durin 10 the meeting, so our relations were a little strained. But when I say "strained", it was that he is English, too, I2 so we sort of had a sort of relationship and we would talk I3 about the weather English people do that a lot. Here he I4 wasn't talking at all. I would say, "Hi, Julian", as I go 15 past; he just didn't want to now it could be because of I6 the meeting or because he didn't want me to see what he was I7 doing, I don't know those things, but I know he was distinctl 78 unfriendly. And from that point on he was very unfriendly T9 in the sense whenever you would see him he wouldn't speak, 20 he wouldn't meet your eye. And he was always involved in by "always", I mean several times a day he would be seen Z2 coming up the path of Lao Tzu when I was there, which was 23 quite a lot of the time, doing various work, he would be 24 coming up the path and going back again five, six, seven time Z5 a day, morning, noon, night and late night. Nobody quite knew what he was doing and there was no way to speak to him 2 because the people had been told, so I gather, because nobody 3 ever actually told us, not to speak to us, not to look any way relate to us. And by I mean 5 the people who were in and around Lao Tzu house. So there 6 were many people coming up the path on a sort of rota basis 7 to do various security jobs which we were totally uninformed 8 of. And Julian came up more than anybody, he was always comiig 9 up and down this path. Now they always came up in pairs to I0 do their security work. Julian was never in a pair, Julian II was always alone doing whatever it was he was doing. IZ What type of authority did Sheela have during this I3 period of time? I mean, you made reference to I4 A Sure. It's tricky to put that into context. She I5 had a particular authority where she was the head of the I6 religious work of the commune. Now her friend Vidya, who U7 she worked with from the earlier days of Poona, was head of T8 the president of the commune. Her other friends were head I9 of various other corporations. She in no way that I can Z0 tell you that I know ever organized anything other than ZT religious work, but whatever she wanted seemed to happen very ZZ rapidly, and I can only assume that it came through the peopl Z3 who were close to her. This was how the network worked, if 24 you were close to her, authority and position seemed to come 25 your way quite rapidly and as long as it happened in the right I way you stayed there. And if it didn't happen in the right 2 way, when maybe you didn't stay there. But it seemed that 3 her authority was comprehensive. It may have been only a 4 friendly basis like it took place in chats, talks, conversati ns 5 in front of her TV, I don't know this, all I know is that 6 the people exerting power and authority and decision--making 7 possibilities were her friends, and they left with her, too. 8 Like when she went, the same people went with her; when she 9 was there the same people were there. It was almost inescap- IO able to avoid the conclusion that these were the people who I1 were, in fact, the arms of her authority. But I didn't know IZ that, that's an opinion. I3 But you were there at Rajneeshpuram able to observe. I4 A Sure, I observed. I5 And you observation of Sheela and these other people, I6 did it appear that they did what Sheela things that she I7 desired, things she wanted? 18 A That's too hard for me to answer. I mean, it appear 19 that the people who agreed with her stayed there and the peop Z0 who didn't agree with her didn't stay there, so and the 2I things that went on that she liked continued to go on and Z2 the things that she didn't like didn't continue to go on, to 23 continue. Whether she actually gave the orders to anybody Z4 in particular to carry out, I can't say. All I know is that 25 her ideas were very swiftly implemented and other people's I ideas were well, you just ran into a brick wall. And it was a sort of understanding. Let me give you a simple examp e. 3 There I was working in the garden. The drive leading to Lao 4 Tzu house where Bagwan's car comes needed gravel. We requi- 5 sitioned gravel like month after month after month and no 6 gravel happened. There was a time when Sheela decided that 7 her drive needed gravel and like that afternoon the gravel 8 happened, trucks going And we have mountains of gravel, 9 we create our own gravel, there's millions of tons of gravel, I0 practically. It was like she had the ability to ease or II obstruct the the origins of it. I don't know, I don't I2 know how she did it. I3 Was it apparent to the people there at Rajneeshpura I4 that this is how the system worked? I5 A By and large, yes. I6 Okay. You mentioned Puja, who was a close associate I7 with Sheela; is that correct? I8 A Yeah, from the very beginning. And the beginning I9 was strange, one day Puja wasn't there and the next day Puja 20 was there. And by "there", I mean in Poona, in a close commu ZY ity and it wasn't very big in those days, you usually saw how ZZ things happened. Like somebody would come and they would 23 take part in meditations, they would take part in this and Z4 they would do this, and you would slowly see somebody, and Z5 slowly, slowly somebody would come spend time. There would I 28 i I be like a sort of process of becoming closer. With Puja, it didn't happen . And with Julian it didn't happen. One 3 day they weren't there and the next day they came. And Puja `4 came to nurse Swami Chinmaya, he was suffering from Hodgkins 5 Disease, and suddenly there's Puja close to Sheela as Chinma a's 6 nurse. And being close to Sheela, she became involved in 7 medical things. By that, I mean when we wanted to make some 8 purchases for the dental department, for instance, Puja would 9 be sent to see if they were necessary, which really meant YO to see if it could be done without, to see if you could do T7 something cheaper and basically to put it off. And I know I2 that happened, too, in the clinic, too. T3 Let me stop you right there. Did that apply then I4 to your time that you were at Rajneeshpuram also? Did she YS put the stop on things; was she involved in those things? T6 A Oh, absolutely; much more here than there. *7 Let's talk about Rajneeshpuram itself. `8 A Okay. i9 How were you involved with her activity, and specif- 20 ically in relation to the Rajneesh Medical Corporation? As Z1 I understand it, she was involved in that. 22 A I was never part of RMC, I worked at Pythagorus in 29 this emergency dental clinic, about which we spoke at the 24 very beginning, in the mornings only for about two years. 25 I had close contact with the way Puja worked, the way she organized things, her effect on people, her effect on me for 2 those two years. Now how exactly did you want me to put this 3 about Puja? 4 Well, what I was interested in Would it be fair 5 to way that she ran the operation? 6 A Oh, yes, totally. Not only just totally, even when 7 her incompetence became so apparent she was no longer the 8 visible head, it was then clear Well, "clear" I'll put 9 it this way. Approval for things, for decisions that were I0 happening in RMC still went down to Jesus Grove to be finally II authorized and basically that's the pursestrings, I assume, I2 and had to be signed, and again Puja was involved, even thoug I3 she wasn't seen to be involved but she was involved through I4 Jesus Grove. 15 And was Puja removed at one time from her position? I6 A Yeah. Now she well, when I say "removed", she T7 was sick, she had a kidney complaint which killed her mother, Y8 I think, a chronic hereditary kidney kidne F9 disease that from time to time makes her sick. There was a Z0 time when she was sick and soembody was needed. And it may ZT have been an overburden of work and people came to help her, 22 there was a lot to do and Ava came. She was creating Z3 "she" meaning Puja there was such a lot of dissatisfaction Z4 and unhappiness among the people working around Puja that Z5 it became clear even those people who wanted her to be there, that the place couldn't run while she was there, so somebody came to help her, and that's where Ava came into it. 3 Was there somebody named "Durga", too? 4 A Durga came after I was involved, so I don't know 5 Durga. Although Durga left with Sheela. I don't have first 6 hand knowledge of Durga, except one thing which may be perti- 7 nent and may not be. Deveraj is my friend and after he becam . 8 very sick on July 6th this year, I was donw at Koran Grove 9 doing some errand and Durga gave me Deveraj's robe in a plast`c IO bag for me to take up to the house. II Which house? 12 A Lao Tzu house. I3 Okay. I4 A And I didn't know where she got the robe from. But U5 like she gave me this robe and there were no shoes involved, T6 but yeah, she gave me the robe. But my personal knowledge ?7 of Durga is just having seen her around and I think she had T8 some security position, but I don't know about that. T9 Okay, let me talk about that a little bit. You were Z0 aware of what had happened to Dr. Deveraj? A He's my buddy and we've been close from the beginnin . ZZ Okay. Z3 A And I knew if it wasn't firsthand, it was very Z4 close. Like when he first became sick around this time in Z5 May, 1984, I can't remember the exact date, but it was some- I where arounu there, early June. D0 you want me to tell this 2 whole thing? Because it's quite long. 3 I see we're getting close to the noon hour. Maybe 4 before we get into that, maybe I could ask you this. Were 5 you aware of the illnesses that Deveraj had? 6 A Yeah. 7 In 84 and then specifically in 85, with respect to 8 July the 6th? 9 A Yes. And the slow abrasion, if you can call it that, I0 of his health all the way through that year. He was a sick II man through the year and we couldn't quite we didn't know I2 what was happening to him, except that he looked progressivel I3 more and more sick; grey, deep blue circles under his eyes. I4 He looked terrible. And I was working with him most of the I5 tiem. I6 Okay. Let's talk about that first incident. I7 A Okay. The first incident was where I'context for you because of this conjunctivitis T9 thing and when we came back to the house "we" meaning Z0 people that lived and worked around the house. There was ZI a large meeting in the house on the day we got back, very ZZ very virulent, a lot of shouting and screaming about how Z5 disgusting we were; about how filthy we were and about how 24 ashamed we should be about ourselves. And it was very virule t. Z5 And Vivek went to Bagwan and came back with a message tell'ng EUR I him about the meeting, and came back with a message that thi 2 meeting serves no purpose, end it now. The people who were 3 doing the shouting and screaming did not want to end at that 4 point and it continued. And it was quite obvious there was 5 a very big rift between Jesus Grove and Lao Tzu house, call 5 it that not obvisouly between the houses, but between the 7 people. And it was so obvious nobody could not notice it. 8 And that night a meeting was called in Bagwan's presence 9 where he outlined clearly how this totally disturbed him in I0 all ways, his health was suffering; it was a disturbance of his silence. This sort of behavior between his disciples I2 was just foolish and destructive, meaningless. I3 Now when was this? 14 A This was on the evening of the day we returned from 15 Koran Grove. I6 We are talking about 84? I7 A Yeah, 84. I can't be actually sure of the date of 78 this, but it's somewhere around late late May, I think. T9 And then what happened, the bearing on Deveraj comes like Z0 this. That evening, Bagwan was very clear to Sheela about her position of authority was being abused, there was no reas ZZ to be so hard and judgmental and hurtful to people. When 23 you are in a position of power, you have all the authority Z4 and you can afford to use compassion. And in the course of 25 the meeting he asked me what it was, you know, what it was was between me and Sheela. And I said I simply have never i 2 understood why she is so angry to me the whole time. And i 3 he thought for a moment and said, "Anyone who is close to 4 me becomes a source of intense jealousy for Sheela. Anyone 5 who is close to me inevitably becomes a target for Sheela." 6 And 7 The Bagwan said that? 8 A He said, "Anyone who comes close to me becomes 9 Sheela becomes jealous of, very jealous of; and she will I0 make your life difficult in many ways. This is the price II of intimacy with me." 12 Was she present? I3 A Yes, she was sitting right next to him, and I'm I4 sitting right next to her in front of Bagwan. And other peop I5 were presetn. He also said directly to her, "The reason that I6 you are so angry with Devageet is that he is not frightened Y7 of you. Why does he have to be frightened? He's my dentist." Y8 And the meeting went on. But that was just part of it that I9 I was involved in directly. And then directly following from Z0 that, Bagwan called another meeting the next day where he 21 named certain people as enlightened and who would carry out ZZ his spiritual work when he was dead. This became he calle 23 them the sansads. There were three circles the spellings 24 here again are going to be tricky The first circle was Z5 a circle of sambuddhas and sambodhis, these were the enlighte ed i 34 ri I ones. Then there is a circle of mahasattvas. There were 2 22 sambuddhas and sambodhis and 36 mahasattvas and bodhisatt as. 3 And he outlined the function in relation to carrying out the 4 work in the event of his death. It was clearly to prevent 5 abuse of authority and power. It seemed very clear to me that the moment he learned that there was abuse of privilege 7 and power, he acted to prevent this. 8 Let me stop you right there. Was Sheela present 9 during these meetings? 10 A I can't remember. I think so. When I say "these I1 meetings", this first one was I2 That was the one where you and her I3 A Yes. There was another meeting the day after where I4 Bagwan set up the Sansads. I5 Were there a number of people present at those? I6 A Yes. I7 To your knowledge, was Sheela present, to the best F8 of your recollection? I9 A I can't clearly recallthat Z0 whenever people met with Bagwan, Sheela was usually present. 21 She was personal secretary to the Bagwan at that ZZ time? Z3 A Right, right. 24 Would it be extremely unusual if she was not present Z5 for something such as this? 1 A Yes. ii 2 These three circles as you named, wherein if somethi 3 happened to him, that this was as I understand it from 4 what you've described would be to carry on, in effect? 5 A Yes. 6 Was she included within 7 A She was named as being She wasn't included in 8 any of the sansads, put it that way, but she was named as 9 being the whatever her position was, she was the personal I0 secretary and she would continue to be his personal secretar . 11 And second to her, if anything happened to her, whatever, I2 Vidya no, not Vidya, Savita would be next and then Vidya. 13 She was included in that, but not within the sansads as such. 14 Did you detect any 15 A Yes. 16 a result of that particular meeting? 17 A Yes. But more than that, what I was going to say, YB because I talking about poisonings at least of the firs 19 people who were named as enlightened, within the next two Z0 days I could name perhaps six or seven who became sick; who 21 were confined to Koran Grove. Z2 The nature of the illness being what? 23 A Various. Z4 Who were they? Z5 A Joyce, Pragito, Taru. Within a few days, Deveraj, I of course, but that's a separate thing. I can't recall other names right now, but the number was somewhere around six or 3 seven. 4 Were these people that were in the sansads? 5 A They were among the enlightened ones, they were the 6 specific people who had been The way this works is, there 7 is a group of enlightened ones; there's ones that will become 8 enlightened during Bagwan's lifetime within the mahasattvas; 9 and the bodhisattvas were the ones who, within their lifetimes, IO will become enlightened. II You said you detected jealousy on the part of Sheela? I2 A And Vidya. I3 Any of the others that were of a close nature to I4 Sheela at that time, as far as you were mentioning heads of I5 some of the corporations and people Y6 A I didn't have close contact with them, so I don't T7 know. T8 What was that? I'm sorry. F9 A As an opinion. I mean, I can only surmise this as Z0 an opinion. It became clear Sheela was very into promoting and giving privilege to what she called "ace workers", which ZZ usually meant people that worked very long and very close Z3 to her, and none of her ace workers were involved. Z4 In what? Z5 A In sansads at this stage, at this early stage. I I see we are getting close to the noon hour. I'm 2 wondering if we could take our noon recess. As I understand 3 it, we have another witness that is scheduled to be here at 4 approximately one fifteen, and because of scheduling, the 5 situation would be more workable if we could take another 6 witness first and then have you finish your testimony after. 7 A Today? 8 Today. 9 A Sure. I0 (Noon recess taken. Ma Yoga Vivek appeared after II the noon break and her testimony was taken out of order. ig Following that, Devageet returned and his testimony continued I3 as follows, towit:) I4 (by Mr. Chatfield) We appreciate your courtesy in I5 allowing the other witness to go ahead of you. I6 A (nods yes) I7 There were several things that I would like to cover IF again. And I guess to pick up where we were at before, you I9 had described sansads, I believe is that the correct Z0 pronunciation? 21 A Yes. 22 Which the Bagwan described at the second meeting 23 following this incident involving Deveraj; is that correct, 24 this incident with Deveraj in July 85; am I correct? 25 A No, the sansads were formed in early June, 1984. I The incident with Deveraj's first poisoning, which at the time we thought was an acute sickness, was June 12, I think, 3 1984. This occurred the sansads were formed a few days, 4 maybe four days before that. 5 Okay. Maybe you could clarify it. My understandin 6 of your testimony was that there was a meeting that the Bagw 7 had where he called people in wherein you described the Bagw 8 saying, with Sheela being present, and yourself, that anyone 9 who comes close to him, meaning the Bagwan, that Sheela beco es I0 jealous of and she will make life difficult; is that accurate? II A Yes. I2 And then I believe you said it was the next I3 A The next evening. 14 The next evening was the second meeting wherein he Y5 described the sansads. T6 A Yes, calls in a few people, among whom were those T7 who he named as being enlightened. I think the sequence of T8 that, he named 13 people and it was over the course of the W9 next 24 hours that he made the number up to 21. Those first Z0 13 were there at the time, as far as I remember. I was there, 27 too, but I wasn't named in these 13. He also, at that time, ZZ outlined the structure of the other sansads, in particular 23 the mahasattvas were going to be 36 people and some of those Z4 people among the 36 were there, such as myself. Z5 Who were they 13, to the best of your recollection? 39 I A Deveraj, Rajen, Teerthe, Avinash, Joyce, Pragi o, Santosh, Maneesha, Taru 3 Which Taru is that? 4 A Ma Yoga Taru, the lady you have already seen, I thi k. 5 Maitreya, Swami Vedant. How many have we got, eleven? I 6 can't recall any more off hand. Not all, to my knowledge 7 were there at that time, but some were. 8 Now you mention that you detected even a much more 9 of a change in Sheela as far as, if you will, jealousy or I0 some feelings? 4 A Well, this is opinion, it's not fact. But among IZ those people mentioned there, there was nobody that one could is say was close to Sheela. And there was definitely a feeling I4 or or I interpreted as she was had her nose put out I5 of joint. It was definitely a move to take certainly spiritu I6 authority, religious authority, away from her and that feelin was I mean, was clear. Y8 Although you say it's opinion, I assume that you are T9 drawing that opinion upon some some circumstances or thing Z0 that occurred or that you were able to detect from her in the ZY group? 22 A Well, she looked very sour at the time and there 23 was nobody among her ace workers who she was always telling Z4 were such superb people, there was Now I couldn't give Z5 you direct evidence for this, except within the next two days I a good buch of these became sick. 2 Including Deveraj? 3 A Deveraj's illness followed maybe four days after 4 this, the actualy occurrence of this. But Deveraj's illness 5 was around June l2, I remember that date. This other date, 6 I'm not that sure of. I do know there was a period of time 7 between when Taru, Avinash, Joyce, Pragito and others becam 8 ill and Deveraj wasn't ill at this point. He hadn't been 9 looking well, but he wasn't acutely illnow talk about this things with Deveraj? FF Yes, if you would. I2 A So what happened then was Deveraj had been looking Y3 very poorly, very in bad health for a few weeks or maybe I4 even more than that. He was his face was always gaunt YS and tired. He looked wiped, with deep circles under his eyes. T6 And it was suggested by people like people like myself '7 and Vivek, that he really ought to get a checkup, he really is looked terrible. And there was one particular night where '9 he had returned . He had said that the previous night coffee soemwhere, I can't recall the exact ZI details, and he felt really bad, he hadn't been able to drive 22 home. And he had been with Hasya. And the next morning he 23 felt very little better, but he felt so bad he couldn't think 24 properly. And that's unusual for Deveraj, he thinks a lot, 25 you know. So he couldn't think properly, he couldn't string (V I words together easily. And then when I saw him the next day 2 he looked very particularly bad and we suggested he go down 3 to Koran Grove. When he went down to Koran Grove, he was 4 suffering with a bit of diarrhea, basically, nothing much. 5 And then that day, after a days rest, he was feeling better 6 and we assume he would be coming home the day after. And 7 the next day Now I had gone down to see him, and at that 8 time visitors were not allowed in Koran Grove. Now I had 9 gone down to see him surreptitously, I had a step ladder out- I0 side the window of the room where he was and I contacted him II through the window. That is the sort of relationship we had. I2 And so I had spoken to him and he said he was feeling pretty I3 good, rested, probably be out tomorrow. Then the next day I4 we heard that we had heard through a telephone call, and I5 I see, we someone in the house had heard that Deveraj I6 was resisting, that he was being a typical doctor, he wouldn' I7 take his treatment, his pills and stuff. And then so this I8 I think it was somewhere around mid-day, mid--afternoon, I9 and I went down and got on my stepladder and spoke with him 20 and he had a drip up, a drip, you know, a drip, a needle in ZI the arm, a bottle and stuff going in. And the reason had 22 been put that Puja had felt that perhaps he was dehydrated 23 and needed a drip. 24 Who is telling you that? Z5 A This was relayed to me, I think this came through I 4 I a phone call to the house. Now when I say "to the house", 2 I can't recall who actually told me that; it may have been 3 Vivek, it may have been Chetana. And I went down to see 4 Deveraj and there he was with his drip. I said, "What's this 5 all about, you resisting and all the rest?" He said, feel 6 very good, much better than when I came in, but Puja is reall 7 insisting that I amdehydrated and I'm not dehydrated at all, 8 I've been drinking like crazy." And he said, "Now I'm not 9 peeing very much, theredehydrated, IO but she's creating such a fuss, she wants me to have this II drip so I said okay." S0 there was the drip. So the sort 12 of feeling at that time there was so much antagonism between I3 the house and Jesus Grove, the Puja and Sheela lot, so I4 Fine, don't make any waves, have a drip, it's only saline 15 solution, it won't do any harm, it's only saline solution. 16 And that evening passed off. The next morning he heard that I7 Deveraj was at death's door, his blood pressure had fallen 18 incredibly low; blood chemistry test showed that he was very I9 severely ill. Again I went down and got on my stepladder 20 and spoke to him. And he sort of staggered to the window Z1 holding his bottle and spoke to me. He said, don't know 22 what is going on, but I think she put something in my drip." Z3 And I said, "Wh0 put something in your drip?" He says, "Well 24 last night I saw Puja injecting something into the drip bottl 25 it's a plastic bottle that gets hung up And he said,"I 1 I think it was vitamins, but I'm sure the needle was dirty or 2 something, but I feel there was something in the drip." He 3 said, "Try and get hold of the drip bottle and get it culture 4 Which means to try and grow the bacteria. Well, there was that because I wasn't even meant to know 6 about this. So I contacted Shunyo who was looking after 7 Deveraj and Shunyo tried to get the drip that had been used 8 the night before and that had been thrown away, it was not 9 available. Deveraj continued to be very ill the rest of that IO day. When I went ot see him that afternoon, he was comatose, II I couldn't speak to him, he was unconcsious. I went back 12 in the evening and at this time he was speaking, he appeared I3 to be rallying. I said, "What the hell is going on?" He I4 said, really don't know. I feel as if I've got something I5 really seriously wrong, maybe septicemia." But like how coul I6 you have septicemia, there had been nothing wrong with him. I7 And blood cultures over the course of the next 24 hours and T8 48 hours showed that he, indeed, did have septicemia with I9 a very little--known bacteria which I can't remember the name Z0 of. But everybody was incredibly surprised that he had septi 21 cemia. And about that, this bacteria shouldn't have been Z2 around anyway. It's hard to describe. Deveraj is incredibly 23 sick and he thought Puja put something in, and nobody could 24 believe Puja was trying to kill him. Maybe she had done some Z5 thing wrong, maybe accidentally, but the fact was So they 1 I started massive doses of antibiotics. I was in daily contact with him for the next several days. He was rallying and 3 started coming out on the balcony and smoking and sunbathing. 4 And after about a week he was ready to come home. He didn't 5 really want to be there, but there was a strange reluctance 6 for him to be released. Anyway, he stayed maybe three more 7 days after all the doctors suggested to Puja he was now fit 8 enough to certainly come back. Anyway, finally he came home. 9 And that was the first incident. It was perhaps a week or I0 two weeks at that stage after the declaration of his being II enlightened and the conflict in the house that had followed IZ over a series of other sort of abrasive meetings with Sheela I3 about the extension of the dental room to intensive care unit, I4 and it was the sort series of events, I5 or we thought. And then also as he was coming up to this I6 stage, it was coming up to the time of the July Festival and I7 Deveraj does the readings during the festival, and he was IB concerned that he was out and ready and prepared for the I9 festival that was coming up, and there was this reluctance, Z0 and there seemed to be no good reason why he couldn't be out ZI and preparing himself. It seemed strange that he wasn't 22 released, is what I'm saying. And then there were 25 As far as date--wise, we are still talking about 24 A 84, ai; 84. Z5 Good. And A And then the festival came and it's a very busy time. 2 There was a focus of attention from people at Jesus Grove 3 on the people in and around Lao Tzu house. And then came 4 the share--a--home project in Early September which we had no 5 contact with at all. And Sheela's whole attention, seemed 6 to be her whole energy was totally involved in this whole 7 program, she was really very much involved like on television 8 and rallys and things, all sorts of stuff. And it was never 9 clear what was actually going on, all we knew was we were \0 told these guys were coming down because we had some excess I1 money and Sheela felt to share it and da-de--da--de~da, and I2 the press was saying it was some political maneuver to take I3 over Wasco County couldn't actually see the point of takin I4 over Wasco County myself, and I think this was a whole Sheela I5 trip that I had no knowledge or contact with, didn't know I6 anything about it. And we were just greatful her whole atten T7 tion was somewhere else, basically. Now my involvement was T8 on another level, I was was also editing a book which came T9 to an end just about the end of October, and Bagwan suddenly Z0 announced he was going to speak again. This was October 31st, 1984. And in some way that was never made apparent. It was 22 clear that it had direct relationship to him knowing about Z3 these events that had been happening and leading up to like Z4 the conflict between Lao Tzu house and Jesus Grove and the Z5 way Sheela was handling things and the fact that he created 1 i I the sansads as a way that if he died there would be an organi- 2 zational basis and structure to carry on his work other than 3 Sheela being in sole charge. And once he started speaking, 4 we were all delighted he was speaking; everybody was delighte . 5 He was only speaking to a few people in his particular room, 6 and it was just beautiful that he was speaking again. And 7 perhaps I could mention at this stage he decided to call the 8 Rajneesh Bible, these talks, and Deveraj and I were involved 9 in editing and transcribing and putting things together in I0 book form. And one particular incident which may illustrate Il many things, was that the 20th night after he started speakin 12 and I know that because that was each night was a I3 different discourse, right? So discourse 20, volume l, he I4 spoke about at the end about half way through, he start I5 speaking about how he was not going to leave us under any I6 facist regime, how he was going to assure that sanyassins 17 was going to be well looked after and how he was going to IB try and protect us from some way in the future by making sure I9 that our organizations were less centrally organized. It Z0 seemed directly aimed at Sheela or put it this way, that it seemed directly to be against the present organizational 22 structure. 23 Was she present when that was stated? 24 A Yeah, yeah. 25 What was her reaction, if anything? I A She was sitting directly in front. I was sitting 2 directly behind her. She didn't do anything, didn't say any- 3 thing. But she looked extremely sour once again. She was 4 good at looking sour. Hahaha And this is the point. That 5 night, every tape everything he said is videotaped and audio taped. That night when we got the tapes the next 7 day normally to do our editing, the tape was unavailable, 8 all the video machines apparently had ceased functioning 9 sometime during that discourse; all audio machines ceased I0 functioning during that discourse; the tapes the tapes we ll irrepairably damaged, this is what Sheela told us, it just I2 disappeared. I3 Who was in charge of that? I4 A Julian. Julian was in charge of the whole departmen 15 to do with television, video, sound recordings, communication, I6 telephone, the whole of the electronic stuff at the ranch I7 was Julians. It was called Edison Department, he wasn't the 78 only one that did it. So I said to the guys that were runnin T9 the machines, "It seems very strange." It seemed everything Z0 was okay last night. They looked reticent. And she said, "Well, when they came to get the master, it was It's ZZ vanished, it was damaged." And nobody said anything about 23 anything. But it was widely known that I mean, it was 24 obviously some kind of a setup. And so this knowledge became 25 a sort of rumour everywhere that Sheela had deliberately suppressed Bagwan's discourse because I think at that time I each discourse was being shown in the evening to the rest of the commune in Rajneesh Mandir, a large hall that we have 4 here, and this particular one wasn't shown, they showed an 5 earlier one, repeated it. And it was told to everybody that 6 due to technical malfunction, it wasn't available. But rumo rs 7 grew. And Sheela had a commune meeting in the Mandir where 8 she was incredibly angry, accusing people of being distrustful 9 and unloving and what she had said was absolutely true, the I0 tape was irrepairably damaged and was no way, da--de--da--de--da. ll Three weeks later a transcript of this tape she phones 1; me up personally, I was involved with transcribing the tapes. I3 I think it was three weeks later or sometime later, she phone 1? and said, "Um, we've managed to salvage a bit of the sound, 15 the audio tape. Would you like to transcribe it?" And I 16 said, "Sure, send it up and I'll do it." And then in the 17 same phone call, he said, "Oh, hang on, I think somebody is I8 already transcribing it." Which was strange, because nobody I9 else was doing that work. She said, "One of the guys here 20 is transcribing it, I won't send up the tape, I'll send up 21 the transcript." I said, "Well, I would rather have the tape ZZ because sometimes we can get words which perhaps other 23 people are not familiar with the way Bagwan speaks, might 24 miss." And plus the fact that when I hear the tape, the 25 correct intonations and correct punctuation, it's very helpfu I 49 to have the tape there. She said, "Well, they are already 2 halfway through typing it, I'll send up the transcript." So 3 the transcript came up without any reference to the business 4 about the facist regime and whatever else was against Sheela's 5 current organizational procedure. And it was subsequently 6 printed in the Rajneesh Times in its abbreviated form and 7 it was very apparent that it had been doctored. You know, 8 it oculd be it was severely damaged and bits were fished out, 9 but the bits that were fished out were of a particular nature. I0 Do you know whether the tape was ever located? II A The tape has never been located. But two nights 12 after it happened, Deveraj and I got together to try and I3 remember exactly what was said, what was said on that night, A I4 and we put together what we thought he had said about the I5 organizational structure and when the transcript came to us Y6 we put it against the transcript and it I mean, it was Y7 quite clear what bits had been left out. YB Did anybody ever approach Bagwan about that? Y9 A To my knowledge, not. Z0 Is there any particular reason why? ZY A Nothing except that he wasn't, at this stage, involv ZZ in anything, like there was no way to actually talk to Bagwan Z3 Sheela was his voice, would have spoke to Bagwan. I mean, 24 when I went to see him for dental work it was dental work, 25 it wasn't a conversational space. If he might say something, I l' it might be "How are you", and that would be the end of the 2 matter. 3 Even though he was not in silence any longer? 4 A Well, it's hard to decide. I mean, he is always 5 in silence basically; it's that he wasn't in public silence 6 anymore, he is now speaking in the evening. But he wasn't 7 involved in any way in any organizational stuff, like there Bagwan I wasn't doing any dent 9 work anyway, there was no avenue for me to do this; the only I0 avenue would be for me to either write a letter, which always YI went through Sheela, to tell Sheela or whatever it was, and IZ that was obviously foolish. Or perhaps to mention it to Vive I3 and Vivek, who had been subjected to a particular sort of T4 harassment from Sheela again didn't I mean, it just didn't V5 arrive in the sense we knew what was happening as far as the T6 tape was concerned and we just let it drop. 17 Was that a means of communicating, like to Vivek; '8 to get a note to her or to communicate to her? '9 A Sure, we could talk to her. But if Vivek she Z0 made it clear that her function was to look after Bagwan and 21 if there was any sort of political thing happening, she didn' 22 want in any way to cause another upsurge of this sort of 23 tremendous conflict that we had had with the house again. 24 And if this sort of thing was going to happen, she didn't Z5 really want to know about it. She was mainly concerned that -4 1 Bagwan's domestic life was as untroubled as possible, so we 2 didn't mention it to her. She knew about it insofar as she 3 had been at the at the meeting, you know, where Bagwan 4 had given the discourse and she knew the tape was not availa le, 5 and when it became available later on this transcript thing. 6 You're talking in November 84 sometime? 7 A Yeah. I mean 20 days, yeah. Might have been Novem 8 19th, 20 days after October 31st. 9 Then Sheela was the only one again that communicated 10 with Bagwan? I1 A Basically Sheela was the only one that was his mouth }g piece. Anything that went to him and came from him was throu I3 Sheela. Vivek saw him, too, but I don't know the nature of I4 their conversations and there was no way the entrance to I5 Bagwan's place was in another part of the house. If he saw I6 anybody, I never saw him with anybody else. I think when I7 he saw people from the sansads the day after there was the IB meeting that I mentioned where other people were named, and 19 I wasn't at that meeting. There's no way to actually know 20 if he had actually seen anybody at all, but it was simply Z1 that Sheela was his secretary and she did all the carrying 22 of information backwards and forwards. 23 Did the situation get any worse or did it continue 24 in the same posture that it was? 25 A Yes, it continued in the same posture always I a mean, at this state there was it was very strained. For instance, people in the house this is now about wiretappin . 3 For instance, there were a couple occasions where I made a 4 telephone call and within minutes I was called down to a plac 5 named Ramakrishna, which was Vidya's personnel department 6 for a rather severe lecture on making personal telephone call . 7 There was no way for her to know I made a personal telephone 8 call; how did she know? It was so close. And it became 9 apparent our calls were being monitored. IO When did that happen? II A I can't be sure the exact date, but it was around I2 this sort of time, like late 84, maybe. And it happened not I3 on one occasion but to myself on two or three occasions. It I4 became clear that information over telephones was available I5 to Sheela. House telephones, this is. I6 That's the telephones in Lao Tzu house? T7 A Lao Tzu house, in another department or something T8 like that. T9 You made mention about obtaining the robe of Deveraj Z0 A Yeah. 21 --in July of 85. 22 A The robe that Durga gave me? 23 Yes. Z4 A Maybe I'll talk about this thing with Deveraj. Z5 Deveraj was working with me and he never really ever seemed A to recover from this very nasty bout, the sickness that he had in 1984. He stayed very poorly, you know, like he looked 2 terribly skinny, pale, big rings under his eyes, and never 3 seemed to make any recovery at all. We used to make jokes 4 with him, "Stop drinking every night." "Stop that smoking", 5 "For God's sake why don't you stop eating in restaurants and 6 start eating at h0me." "You must be allergic to coffee." 7 He used to eat in restaurants and started eating in Magdalena, 8 and he used to sit in the restaurant at a particular table 9 with Hasya and the other guys, we used to call them "The I0 Hollywood Set", and he used to mainly eat down there. And II on one particular occasion later in the year, I think this I2 must have been about May 1985, I can't remember exactly, he I3 came home late um He had been down to Jesus Grovecoffee and felt incredibly sick immediately, I5 couldn't put words together, he was so sick. He asked somebo I6 to drive him across to another place, Zarathustra. It was 17 strange. He asked Homa to drive him and nobody seemed the YB least disturbed that he asked someone to drive him because I9 he was suddenly ill. He was driven to see another friend, Z0 and they were speaking or they were together about an hour, Z1 and he was basically that was my night for staying in the 22 house, and he came home maybe midnight in a very strange stat 23 his speech was slurred, he couldn't walk straight. 24 You observed that yourself? 25 A Yeah. I was there in the room as he came in. Right. The other thing that you described about the coffee, he told you? 1 3 A Right. Like here I am in the bedroom, the light 4 goes on and Deveraj comes staggering in, could barely speak, 5 his speech was slurred. He was speaking, but in a strange 6 way, he had to speak very slowly to get his words out, and 7 he was telling me how he had this cup of coffee and how he 8 needed to be driven, da--de--da~de~da. And he said, "I'm sure 9 they put something in my coffee." And I said, "This is crazy, UO why should they do something like that?" I said, "It just I1 feels ridiculous." He said, had a cup of coffee and felt I2 immediately bad." He related another time when he had a simi ar I3 experience. I said, "This is crazy, how could this be going i I4 on?" The next morning he felt better, and in the course of I5 the next two or three days apparently he came back to normal. T6 And then the next incident regarding Deveraj was on July 6, I7 1985, this is Master's Day. Again, I wasn't in the Mandir, Y8 which is the big hall, but I was on I was looking after T9 the house while it was empty. So I had the radio on, the Z0 Motorola, and I heard at the end, all the celebration music 27 going on, and suddenly there is a call for an ambulance, ZZ someone collasped on the music stage, someone collasped. And Z3 I heard this and heard the calls going out for the ambulance. 24 And then a little while later, maybe five, ten minutes later, Z5 people were coming back to the house from the Mandir and I somebody said "It's Deveraj, he collasped on the music podiu 1 and he's really sick, they rushed him off toe Pythagorus." 3 I saw Shunyo maybe half an hour after that, maybe I can't 4 remember exactly, maybe 40 minutes after that. Shunyo had 5 been down to Pythagorus with Deveraj that he rushed some 6 of his blood up to the house, there is a blood analysis machi 7 in the house, and they were doing an analysis on his blood. 3 The blood chemistry was so was so peculiar, it wasn't even 9 registering on the machine, the acid was so high it was beyon 10 the scale of the machine. His blood pressure was low; his 11 lungs were filling up with water, they said. 12 Is this information beign provided to you? 13 A This information came directly from Shunyo to me. 14 Let me stop you right there. You mentioned that 15 you were not in the Hall at the time. 16 A Right. I7 Okay, where were you at? I8 A In the house, Lao Tzu house, listening on the Motoro a 19 for when the car came back to the house. Like I was on zo sort of watching the house, sort of security process. g1 You had the other security around. zz A We weren't part of it. When I say "security", there 23 the perimeter thing and Sheela's guards and people with guns 24 and things. This had nothing to do with what this was 25 is, when we never leave the house empty at all. Sort of 56 I like when something is going on, somebody who is either worki 2 or living in the house stays in the house. 3 Okay. You were in the house by yourself then? 4 A Yeah. 5 You mentioned about listening; were you able to 6 listen to the entire ceremony that morning? 7 A No, you only year the stuff that is being put out 8 on that particular channel at that particular time. When 9 a call went out on red channel, or whatever it was, on that IO ambulance, I heard that. II Who is putting that call out? I2 A That would be there's a whole series of people I3 in the Mandir when where is a festival going on, and it could I4 have been any of those people. I didn't recognize the voice; I5 I can't recall it now. I6 This isn't something over the loudspeaker there at 17 the hall? TB A No, over a hand--held Motorola, a two--way radio. I9 Someone communicating within security? Z0 A Yes. And I'm monitoring this red channel and I'm ZT hearing this message. And maybe 40 minutes later, Shunyo 22 came to the house. I believe he brought the blood sample. Z3 I didn't see the blood sample, but I know it was being analyz 24 at that moment. He came in and I spoke to him. And he said, Z5 "Deveraj says he thinks he's been injected by Shanti 1 I said, "What, in the middle of everything?" And he said, 3 know it seems ridiculous." And he related what he heard 3 from Deveraj. He said Deveraj said Shanti B. come up to him, 4 put her arm around his shoulder and he felt a prick in his 5 buttock or thigh and immediately thought, "My God, I've been 6 injected." He, either at that moment contacted Taru anyw y, 7 he said he contacted Taru to show her the area where he had 3 been injected. He had gone to the back door and vomited and 9 come back again after the call had gone out to the ambulance, 10 and fairly quickly he was taken off in the ambulance to Kora yy Grove. That's all through Shunyo. Shunyo went with the yz ambulance. I said to Shunyo, "Did you see an injection mark?" yg He said, "Well, it looked like an injection mark to me." I I4 said, "Is there any possibility it could have been something I5 else?" He said, "No, it looked like an intramuscular injecti 16 I said, "Did anyone else see it?" He said, "One of the other 17 doctors down there saw what appeared to be an intramuscular 18 injection mark." It seemed so bizarre. How could anybody 19 give an intramuscular injection, a person who is not a nurse, Z0 with no skill to my knowledge, in the middle of a festival, 21 in front of all these people, give an intramuscular injection. 22 And Deveraj is again at death's ga Excuse me. when Shunyo was at Lao Tzu house with 24 the blood sample, do you know where Deveraj was at then? Z5 A Yes, at Pythagorus. Then what happened? 2 A Once the information was passed, I assume it's infor 3 mation to do with blood analysis and whatever, it was decided 4 it would be safer to fly him out and get him into another 5 hospital because our facilities are very limited down there, 6 rather than just wait and what what was happening. So he 7 was flown out. And I know that he was very frightened about 8 going on the plane, because he felt that somebody could injec 9 him on the plane. IO How do you know that? II A He told me. I2 When? I3 A After he came homePythagorus yoruself? I5 A No. I6 So you didn't have any contact with him during this I7 time? T8 A N0, no, none at all. 19 Okay. Z0 A But it was like through people around. And I spoke to him on the phone when he was in the hospital in Bend, and ZZ I spoke to Hasya, who was with him at the time. And the stor 23 became clear, but it was just too bizarre, like how could Z4 this be? I had to accept that the people that were organizin Z5 the commune were homicidal maniacs or Deveraj was somehow I I imagining things. This is where the robe comes in. All righ . 2 Two days later the robe came to me from Durga with a safety 3 pin in the pocket, so I didn't know this at the time. I 4 come back to the house and here's Deveraj's robe, and we just 5 went through the pocket and there was an open safety pin on 6 the same side where he said he had had his injection. I said, 7 "My God, perhaps he pricked himself in some way and sort of 8 frightened himself to death." 9 Let me stop you right there. Was the robe had I0 it been cleaned? II A No, no, it was still crumpled, and apparently IZ the same as when he had had it taken off him. I3 Okay. I4 A But let me tell you, an open safety pin in the pocke I5 I mean, Deveraj doesn't carry safety pins around. As far I6 as I know, the only place you would have a safety pin on that I7 occasion would be if you checked your shoes into the shoe IB check; you would get a safety pin with your number one it I9 and you go back and check it in. There was no shoe tag check Z0 on it, it was simply an open safety pin, which we didn't thin ZI about at the time. 22 Let me stop you. I don't mean to keep interrupting Z3 you but I want to make sure I understand what you're saying. Z4 A Sure, sure. Z5 They have check tabs or pins with a tag? A I A Yes, right, you get there are like clothes hooks, 2 clothes hangar hooks, and each one is numbered and there's 3 a safety pin with a number on it so if you put your coat and 4 your shoes there, you'll take off the tag and pin it somewhe 5 on your body so that when you come back because there's 6 thousands of shoes and coats and things; the only way you're 7 going to find it is if you have got a number. And so most 8 people have a safety pin with a little number on it, and that's 9 how they get their shoes. I0 That's during the ceremony that II A During the satsang, the morning ceremony. IZ This pin that you pulled out I3 A I took an open safety pin from his lefthand pocket I4 of his robe two days later after Durga had given it to me. I5 Let me stop you there. I6 A Sure. 17 The pin that you pulled out wasn't one of those Y8 check 19 A I can't be certain of that because I never check Z0 my shoes in. And the other things is, to the best of my 2i knowledge, nor did Deveraj. Deveraj is an unpunctual person, 22 he comes late to things. To my knowledge, he didn't check 23 his shoes in. Now, if ever what he used to do is when 24 he would come, he would either come to the back door around Z5 the back and leave his shoes outside the back door, which I is not the shoe check, back of the musician's podium, which 2 is easier for his shoes to pick up his shoes and go, or 3 initially to leave his shoes. He never checked his shoes 4 in, he never does things like that. Now, even if he had, 5 there would be a check tag on it, right? But this was 6 there it was, an open safety pin in his pocket, for no appare 7 reason. But I think it never occurred to us at the time. 8 I say there was myself and Vivek with his robe. And 9 we were so relieved that we weren't being run by a bunch of IQ homicidal maniacs, that some way this prick and it's 11 foolish, because here he was very very sick, dead practically; 12 how could that happen from a safety pin? I3 Did you discover the safety pin yourself? I4 A Yes. I5 Did Durga say anything at all, make any reference? I6 A No, none. I7 Did you communicate that to anybody other than Vivek. I8 A I think I communicated it to Shunyo and that's proba ly \9 all. 20 Do you know if anybody communicated it to Sheela 21 or any of her close associates? Z2 A I don't know that. We communicated it to Deveraj, 23 we phoned him and said, "We found this safety pin in your 24 pocket." And he said I wasn't speaking to him, I was in Z5 the room where Vivek was speaking to him. And he said, you 1 I 1 know, don't know how it got there. What has that got to 2 do with anything? Because there's a very definite differenc 3 between a pinprick and an intramuscular injection. A pinpri 4 you feel, but usually because the needle is so fine, you 5 don't feel the prick, you feel the serum oozing into your 6 tissues." He's a doctor, he knows the difference. We're 7 telling him it's a safety pin on the same side, and "Maybe 8 that's what you thought was the injection." We were giving 9 as we used to say, we were giving no energy to his story 10 that perhaps he had been poisoned, it was just too bizarre, 11 it was just too unbelievable. So when he came home, I then gg heard from him what he thought had happened. And it was clea I3 confusion, either somebody had poisoned him like stuck a need 14 into him and tried to kill him In fact, there was no other 15 alternative at all, because he wasabsolutely clear what had 16 happened. And in the sequence of events, there was no actual 17 opportunity to thing that there could be any other solution 18 to it. 19 A Are you aware of any other incidents that occurred 20 to Deveraj? Z1 A An injection? 22 Or any other poisoning. 23 A No. Vivek I was aware of. 24 Through things she told you? 25 A One day she had been down to Jesus Grove and had a 1 I cup of tea. She came back and she was looking pale and clamm 2 and looked nervous and distraught. And over the course of 3 the next half hour she was in her room and I went down 4 to see there, and I was there, Shunyo and Deveraj were there, 5 too. And her pulse was like three times normal. Her blood 6 pressure I can't remember whether it was high or low, but 7 it wasn't normal, and she was looking very poorly. 8 You saw her at Lao Tzu househer room at Lao Tzu house; within maybe I0 a half hour, one hour, or her having gone down to Jesus Grove II to see Sheela and where she had been given I think it was I2 a cup of coffee. I3 Do you have any other information involving any othe I4 alleged poisonings? I5 A Not firsthand. I6 Okay. You say "not firsthand"; do you have any I7 information involving the alleged poisoning of Mike Sullivan, T8 the District Attorney in Jefferson County? T9 A No, I didn't know about that until it came out Z0 recently. ZY Would that be in discourse from the Bagwan? 22 A I think so, yes. That's where I first heard of all Z3 these or was that the May I think that was in discourse Z4 But also this story about Sheela having a list and things. Z5 When Sheela had left, within a day or so I think, Samya came I up to speak to Vivek to say to say literally what her experience was about, there was a group of people that Sheela 3 was trying to poison and likeeverythinq that we thought was 4 too impossible to believe was actually true and not only 5 true, but it was much worse than we would have ever conceived, 6 it was just silly. 7 Samya is Dr. Shunyo's wife; is that correct? 8 A Yes, right. 9 Can you tell us a little bit about when you first I0 became aware that Sheela and the other group were leaving; II how did that come about? I2 A It was in discourse. I3 Were you not aware of it prior to that time? I4 A No. Bagwan The night before that at a press 15 conference, Bagwan had said he had received a letter from 16 Sheela saying you were probably aware of this saying I7 that Sheela was not happy when she came back to the ranch, l8 she felt happier when she was in Europe. And he went on to 19 say how this had happened since he started speaking and she 20 was loosing her celebrity status and her sole communication Z1 with Bagwan; the whole thing had undermined her authority. Z2 And he went on at length. And then he went on to say that 23 she really was the only one who was not happy when he started 24 speaking and if you look into that closely it means unconscio sly 25 she would be happy if he wasn't speaking. And if you look 1 into that even more ;loseIy,Hit~mean 2 happier if he never spoke, or perhaps she would be happier 3 if he were dead. 4 That's a conclusion that you or he 5 A That's his words. If you have a transcript of the 6 I think it was the day September 21st, evening press 7 conference, held in what was then Jesus Grove. I don't know 3 who he was speaking to, but he talked about this letter. An 9 then the next morning in discourse he again spoke about the gg letter. And during the course of that day there was intense gy speculation because um The rumours were Sheela was I2 leaving, Sheela was leaving. And first I actually knew about Ig it at four o'clock that day I was doing something, going 14 up there, down the road, and I passed the airfield and there I5 was a whole bunch of people around the tarmac and they were I6 singing and crying and weeping. And Sheela was on the plane I7 with Puja and Rajan I think Vidya, but I'm not sure of 18 that and they were going, and that was that. 19 Do you know where that letter is now? 20 A Which letter, the letter she sent to Bagwan? 21 Yes, that's correct. 22 A No, I don't know. The letters that came to Bagwan, gi usually it would be through Geeta. Although in this particul Z4 case I don't know whether she would have Well, she never Z5 came to see Bagwan herself, so I have a feeling it came throu 1 into that even more closely, it means perhaps she would be 2 happier if he never spoke, or perhaps she would be happier 3 if he were dead. 4 That's a conclusion that you or he 5 A That's his words. If you have a transcript of the 6 I think it was the day September Zlst, evening press 7 conference, held in what was then Jesus Grove. I don't know 3 who he was speaking to, but he talked about this letter. And 9 then the next morning in discourse he again spoke about the 10 letter. And during the course of that day there was intense 11 speculation because um The rumours were Sheela was I2 leaving, Sheela was leaving. And first I actually knew about 13 it at four o'clock that day I was doing something, going 14 up there, down the road, and I passed the airfield and there I5 was a whole bunch of people around the tarmac and they were I6 singing and crying and weeping. And Sheela was on the plane 17 with Puja and Rajan I think Vidya, but I'm not sure of 18 that and they were going, and that was that. 19 Do you know where that letter is now? 20 A Which letter, the letter she sent to Bagwan? zi Yes, that's correct. zz A No, I don't know. The letters that came to Bagwan, za usually it would be through Geeta. Although in this particul 24 case I don't know whether she would have Well, she never Z5 came to see Bagwan herself, so I have a feeling it came throu 67 I What about with respect to any other poisoning 2 You have described Deveraj and some unusual circumstances 3 involving Vivek; do you have any other information involving 4 poisoning of anyone else? 5 A Secondhand information about Swami Savarja. He tol 6 me himself that when he had been in Australia with Sheela 7 and Savita and Rajan, he had what he thought then what 8 he thought now to be poisoned, but at the time Do you want 9 me to tell you the story? IO Briefly. II A Briefly, okay. So he was over there negotiating I2 the sale of a company and the purchase of a large piece of I5 land which Sheela and Savita basically Sheela received 14 a hostile reception, the deal had fallen through; Sheela and I5 Savita had taken off, gone somewhere else in Australia. The 16 night they had gone, Savarja went over there; a financial ?7 adviser was contacted by the person they were negotiating T8 with. They went to see this man and they arrived at a plan Y9 for a deal or purchase of Karrai Valley. He communicated Z0 this to Sheela who gave him a really hard time over the tele-- Z1 phone, and he wasn't sure what all that was about anyway, 22 went to bed, next day woke up and had breakfast. After Z3 breakfast, he couldn't speak, he could barely drag himself 24 into the bathroom. He said for the next two or three days Z5 all he could do is sit in front of the television like a zomb e. 1 67 I What about with respect to any other poisoning 2 You have described Deveraj and some unusual circumstances 3 involving Vivek; do you have any other information involving 4 poisoning of anyone else? 5 A Secondhand information about Swami Savarja. He tol 6 me himself that when he had been in Australia with Sheela 7 and Savita and Rajan, he had what he thought then what 8 he thought now to be poisoned, but at the time Do you wan 9 me to tell you the story? IO Briefly. II A Briefly, okay. So he was over there negotiating Iz the sale of a company and the purchase of a large piece of I3 land which Sheela and Savita basically Sheela received I4 a hostile reception, the deal had fallen through; Sheela and I5 Savita had taken off, gone somewhere else in Australia. The I6 night they had gone, Savarja went over there; a financial T7 adviser was contacted by the person they were negotiating T8 with. They went to see this man and they arrived at a plan W9 for a deal or purchase of Karrai Valley. He communicated 20 this to Sheela who gave him a really hard time over the tele- Zi phone, and he wasn't sure what all that was about anyway, ZZ went to bed, next day woke up and had breakfast. After Z3 breakfast, he couldn't speak, he could barely drag himself Z4 into the bathroom. He said for the next two or three days Z5 all he could do is sit in front of the television like a zomb`e. I being an investigative grand jury, certainly your informatiow 2 will be something that is of value and it may be getting us 3 to somebody that will have direct knowledge of that. Certai ly 4 the grand jury is only going to consider direct information, 5 but they need these sources in needing to follow up on anythi 6 that would be relevant for their determination. Are you awa 7 of anything that Puja was doing with respect to Rajneesh Medi al Corporation involving cultures, lab work that she was doing, 9 things like that that may be even outside Pythagorus Clinic? IO A No, not in that context. I was aware directly II aware that she was giving Sheela nitrous oxide, somewhere I2 early in l984. I3 What is that? I4 A What is nitrous oxide? I5 Yes. I6 A It's called laughing gas. It's a stuff used in dent W7 surgery, and stuff that you can it's a pain--relieving gas, ?8 basically, and it's the basis of many hospital anesthetics. T9 It can be delivered in many ways. But I was called down to Z0 Jesus Grove I can't remember exactly when, but I think it was early 1984 it may have been even earlier than that, 22 late 83 Where Puja called me down wihtout telling me what Z3 it was about. I went to Sheela's bedroom. Sheela was vomiti 24 and sick and obviously very drugged, and there was this nitro Z5 oxide machine, the one that was being used up in the Pythagor I being an investigative grand jury, certainly your informatio 2 will be something that is of value and it may be getting us 3 to somebody that will have direct knowledge of that. Certai ly 4 the grand jury is only going to consider direct information, 5 but they need these sources in needing to follow up on anythi 6 that would be relevant for their determination. Are you awa 7 of anything that Puja was doing with respect to Rajneesh Medi al 8 Corporation involving cultures, lab work that she was doing, 9 things like that that may be even outside Pythagorus Clinic? I0 A No, not in that context. I was aware directly I1 aware that she was giving Sheela nitrous oxide, somewhere I2 early in l984. I3 What is that? I4 A What is nitrous oxide? I5 Yes. U6 A It's called laughing gas. It's a stuff used in dent-l T7 surgery, and stuff that you can it's a pain-relieving gas, T8 basically, and it's the basis of many hospital anesthetics. 79 It can be delivered in many ways. But I was called down to Z0 Jesus Grove I can't remember exactly when, but I think it was early l984 it may have been even earlier than that, Z2 late 83 Where Puja called me down wihtout telling me what 23 it was about. I went to Sheela's bedroom. Sheela was vomiti Z4 and sick and obviously very drugged, and there was this nitro Z5 oxide machine, the one that was being used up in the Pythagor I 1 it, but I'm just guessing, I don't know. Obviously you heard the Bagwan's allegations of 3 criminal activity, I previously asked you about that. Witho 4 going down through a list of all of those, are there any of 5 those allegations that you have information about that you 6 have not touched upon at the present time, direct knowledge 7 yourself, or you are aware of another person that, in fact, 8 had direct knowledge of that? 9 A The alleged bombing of the City Hall in Wasco County, 10 I mean the person involved, I know his name. ll A Okay, who is that? 12 A Swami Veetraga. 13 Could you spell thatpilot. He was the one who was sent to Germany, and he was I6 the one that came back, so I mean it's I'm pretty sure 17 that was him. I8 Is he currently at the ranch now? $9 A I think so. 20 Is there anything else that you can think of that ZI would be of benefit to basically for this body to get down Z2 to the bottom of the allegations? 23 A No, not that I can think of. All I could say is Z4 that Savada worked closely with Puja quite a long time, she 25 may have more knowledge of certain things. No, we were effec 1 A I it, but I'm just guessing, I don't know. 2 Obviously you heard the Bagwan's allegations of 3 criminal activity, I previously asked you about that. Witho 4 going down through a list of all of those, are there any of 5 those allegations that you have information about that you 6 have not touched upon at the present time, direct knowledge 7 yourself, or you are aware of another person that, in fact, 8 had direct knowledge of that? 9 A The alleged bombing of the City Hall in Wasco County, 10 I mean the person involved, I know his name. 11 A Okay, who is that? 12 A Swami Veetraga. I3 Could you spell thatpilot. He was the one who was sent to Germany, and he was I6 the one that came back, so I mean it's I'm pretty sure I7 that was him. I8 Is he currently at the ranch now? 19 A I think so. 20 Is there anything else that you can think of that 21 would be of benefit to basically for this body to get down Z2 to the bottom of the allegations? 23 A No, not that I can think of. All I could say is 24 that Savada worked closely with Puja quite a long time, she 25 may have more knowledge of certain things. No, we were effec tively isolated. Oh, maybe Okay. I was just going to say some kind of relevance to give some kind of backgroun 3 how the people who did have some kind of access to Bagwan 4 literally were isolated from the rest of the commune Is 5 that in any way relevant? 6 In what way? 7 A A fence was built around us, a doublt electric fence. 8 A guardpost was put outside the gate. Our telephone calls 9 were severely restricted and if we made personal calls we I0 were called to ask about them in the way I have mentioned. II There was a strong possibility that we were being monitored. I2 Who put up the fence? I mean, who had the authority I3 to do that? 14 A Vidya. I5 Why did she? Y6 A She said it was a deer fence originally, but so T7 we have deer. And it was electrified and it was a security '8 device. There was a security post build somewhere around F9 mid-84, and we were never allowed to ask anything about Z0 security because it was secret. And the people who used to ZT come to the house used to come in twos and they never looked Z2 at us or spoke to us or in any way acknowleged our presence. 23 Okay. You mentioned Vidya; What was her role, Vidya I4 as opposed to Sheela? Do you know where their connection cam 25 A Vidya was in charge of the day--to--day running of i the commune, where Sheela was in charge of Rajneesh Foundatio International, the religious aspects. They were close friend 3 and they knew, from wherever their respective connection was 4 way back, Puja and Savita too, and she was in charge of money 5 and very close, all of them. 6 Were you aware of any changing in the corporations 7 because of a falling--out that Sheela had had with somebody 8 then? 9 A No. People left the ranch because Sheela subjected I0 them to a particular type of harassment, but they had nothing ii to do with the corporations. IZ I see it's about 25 minutes after 4 now. What we I3 have done is we have excused witnesses for a little bit to T4 see whether the grand jurors have any specific questions to T5 clarify things that you have testified about, and then at 76 that point if there is anything we would ask you those questions I7 and, other than that, then we would be in a position to have lg you excused. Y9 (witness temporarily excused, returns and proceedings Z0 continued as follows:) (by Mr. Chatfield) We have just a few questions, 22 thank you for your patience. First of all, wioth respect 23 to the robe, Deveraj's robe. In July of 85, a coupld days 24 after the incident itself, you mentioned that you received Z5 the robe from Durga. Did you have occasion to notice whether (I there was any blood on Deveraj's robe? A The robe is red. I didn't notice any blood. 3 Did you take any 4 A We looked at the pin to see if there was a bloody 5 pin. 6 Did you see any blood on the pin? 7 A No. 8 Did you even inspect the robe looking for blood? 9 A Yes. 10 You did? I1 A Yes. IZ Did you see any? I3 A Nothing at all. U4 Did you inspect the entire robe for blood? Y5 A Yes. Well, when you say "the entire robe", we looke T6 in the area where the pin was. If it was a pin prick you I7 would have expected some blood, and there was none. IB With respect to the pin that you discovered in the T9 pocket being open, are you able to say whether that was, in Z0 fact, a regular safety pin or one of those check pins? Z1 A I can't say that for sure. ZZ Either way? 23 A It was a regular safety pin; whether this is the 24 sort that was used for the shoe check, I can't answer, becaus 25 I never used the shoe check. . I Assuming it was one of those shoe check pins or 2 3 A Uh--huh. 4 Do you know who would have picked up his shoes and 5 clothing, or 6 A No. That was all a little bit strange. I still 7 don't know how his shoes got back, no, not at all. 8 Now I may have asked this question already, I'm not 9 sure. But you mentioned that there were meetings with Sheela IQ and meetings that you had with her down at Jesus Grove in Il her house; were those meetings conducted in the bedroom? 12 A Yes. I3 Why in the bedroom? I4 A It's Sheela's style. I5 Maybe you could elaborate a little bit. I6 A I can't recall, except that's how she does things, I7 you know. Whenever I went down to see Sheela for these meet- IB ings, it always took place in her bedroom and there were alwa I9 groups of people around her. 20 When you mentioned in the bedroom, are we talking 21 about her actually being in bed, or what? 22 A Well, on one occasion when we went and we were talki 23 about the extension to the dental room cum ICU, she was sitti Z4 in the bed and there were people around; when she was vomitin 25 there were people around; again, she was in bed. The time I 76 4 I told you about the last time I was here about the telephone 2 and the appointment book, the diary, she wasn't in bed, that 3 was that actually took place in her sitting room or the 4 lounge area. There was a very virulent meeting at that time 5 which took place in RMC, which was the very first time I had 6 ever heard Savita quite in this way where it was a meeting 7 for everybody from RMC, there were about 70 people there. 8 And I'm not a part of RMC, so I just happened to work at 9 Pythagorus, so I asked if I had to be at the meeting. And 10 it became a personal attack on Deveraj and myself, very II insulting and humiliating, where Savita had screamed at me I2 that I was poison, I was an enemy of the commune, I Her I3 words were, was worse than the worst redneck in Madras", I4 whatever that means. Sounds as if it's a pretty bad insult, I5 right? So that was the very first time I had actually found I6 Savita didn't like me. So I got the point pretty quickly. I7 And at that meeting there was, besides all of RMC, there IS was Sheela, Savita, Vidya and Samya. I9 Was Puja there? Z0 A And Puja, of course, Puja. It's easy to forget Puja, ZI she's a quiet lady, she is sort of always there, but she neve 22 initiates things in terms of verbal assault, she's not good 23 at that. She was always a background figure. 24 You just brought up that one meeting with RMC. When 25 did that occur? I A That was maybe even the beginning of the big 2 split when we became aware Deveraj and myself became awar 3 that we were some kind of, you know, horrible fiends in the 4 eyes of Sheela. That was probably May of 1984. Maybe even 5 a bit earlier, but about that time, May, June, July, 84, the 6 paranoia, the feeling of intensification of hatred became 7 very strong. 8 What was the purpose of that meeting? 9 A I never found out, it became there was they I0 started attacking Deveraj. Sheela was attacking, she was II incredibly angry about something and it wasn't clear what IZ she was angry about. And I asked her, you know, if she said I3 what she was angry about, maybe we could do something about i I4 it. And she then turned it into a very personal attack on I5 myself and then she still never said anything about anything I6 in particular. And then um she turned onto Deveraj I7 and started some of the loud tirade about Hasya and T8 soem neck brace that Hasya had bought and Deveraj had suggest d. I9 It was like it was a lot of stuff about nothing, but very 20 very virulent and very public and very humiliating. 2I Is this Savita saying this, or Sheela? 22 A That was Sheela to Deveraj, and Sheela to me, too. Z3 And then about halfway through the meeting, it had been going Z4 on about an hour and it was lunchtime and I was hungry, and 25 it was also time for Bagwan's driveby. I looked at my watch I (V I and Sheela said, "When I'm speaking to you, you look at me." 2 And I said, "Well, it's time for the driveby." And she beca 3 mottled with fury, she became incredibly furious. And she 4 sent somebody out to see if the car was coming and the car 5 was coming, so we rush out to see Bagwan and then we all came 6 back again and at that point Savita started on me, and I beca 7 worse than the worst redneck in Madras. 8 What was her position? Why was Savita there? 9 A Savita was treasurer of something or other, treasure IO of the commune I don't know exactly. Samya, I don't know II what her connection was with any of this. Vidya was there I2 as president of the commune. Their actual role in any of I3 these things was basically backup for Sheela; it wasn't a I4 corporate meeting of any kind, you know. I5 And that was for I6 A Everybody that worked in RMC and others like myself I7 who were around were called to the meeting. T8 Although you had some connection with I9 A I had a connection. What I'm saying, I wasn't a Z0 part of RMC, that's all. ZI You understand that, and I'm sure I mentioned to Z2 you before, this particular body of people decides whether 23 charges are to be brought, and not knowing timewise on the Z4 evenutal trial or trials if charges are, in fact, brought Z5 I don't know whether they will be brought or not, but assumin they are, that things might not happen as far as a trial dow 2 the road a ways What I'm really leading up to with respec 3 to that is that it's apparent that the Bagwan has some infor 4 ation about these allegations of criminal activities and is 5 willing to do something about them with respect to that, ass 6 that the Bagwan changes his particular feeling or whatever, 7 communicates that to you or others, would that affect you 8 in any manner in preventing you or 9 A You mean giving evidence? I0 Coming forward and giving evidence and cooperating. It A No. '2 By that statement are you saying then that regardles I3 of what he would say that you would continue to be cooperativ I4 and come forward and give I5 A That is a loaded question and, as such, you can't I6 give a clear answer. It's a dirty trick, if you don't mind I7 my saying so. But basically if Bagwan told me not to, I woul X8 feel that I would have to explain to him why I felt it was 19 important that I did so. I don't ever think the situation 20 will arise. 21 Okay. I hope you understand the reason for asking Z2 that question, because I sense that you have a very strong 23 feeling for the Bagwan, as other people have come before us 24 and expressed that, and this body has to make certain decisio 25 and they evaluate the evidence as presented and evaluate the i people that come before them and provide that evidence. And certainly, although they may bring the charges, it is obviously 3 important that things are finished with respect to 4 A I understand that. But what you must understand 5 is that when you call us "followers" or "believers" or whate 6 it is, it's not a true description. The true description 7 is that we simply are with Bagwan. He makes suggestions. He said, "Disbelieve everything, be skeptical, believe nothin 9 until you find the truth that's indubitable." In this partic- I0 ular instance, he for instance, suggested that marriage II is a pretty rotten institution. Well, I'm married and I like I2 my marriage. It just depends. He says many things and they 13 are applied to many people. If the cap fits, you wear it, V4 but basically your truth is your own personal truth. I5 I appreciate your time and appearing before the gran I6 jury and you patience with respect to letting the other witness F7 come in. IS A My pleasure. Thank you all. I9 (witness excused