OFFICE OF PROFESSIONAL STANDARDS Investigative Report Roderick L. Frazier September 12 2013 Rick W. Mills, Superintendent The Office of Professional Standards shall conduct investigations into alleged employee misconduct or other matters concerning the school district and make recommendations as to the disposition of such complaints or matters and report legally sufficient complaints to the Education Practices Commission. SCHOOL DISTRICT OF MANATEE COUNTY Troy J Pumphrey, Preparer of Report Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP SCHOOL BOARD OF MANATEE COUNTY OFFICE OF PROFESSIONAL STANDARDS INVESTIGATION REPORT Case Subject: Date of Birth: Work Site: Position: Date of Hire: Roderick L. Frazier February 11, 1978 Manatee High School Administrative Liaison August 11, 2006 Case Type: Administrative Investigation Case Number: 12-2033-OP INVESTIGATOR: Troy Pumphrey OPS File Opened: July 23, 2013 Date of Report: September 12, 2013 SECTION I INTRODUCTION: 1 2 3 4 On July 23, 2013 the undersigned investigator was asked to conduct an inquiry based on the allegation that Roderick L Frazier, Administrative Liaison, Manatee High School was inappropriately interacting with female students. The alleged incidents occurred while the students attended Manatee High School. 5 6 On July 26, 2013 Roderick L. Frazier resigned from the School District of Manatee County, in lieu of termination. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 As the investigation proceeded, actions and inactions of district administrators came to light which suggested the possibility of administrative negligence and/or intentional misconduct, thereby justifying that the scope of the investigation be broadened to determine whether applicable policies and/or rules were violated. More specifically, the investigation was broadened to determine whether these administrators had prior knowledge of complaints by female students and faculty regarding inappropriate conduct involving Roderick Frazier and if so, why the complaints were not properly addressed. 14 15 16 17 As the investigation proceeded, it became necessary to determine why on Thursday November 15, 2012 Frazier was placed on Paid Administrative Leave (PAL) and removed from PAL status on Friday, November 16, 2012 then returned to his position at Manatee High. To arrive at this determination, the following questions needed to be answered: Page 1 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 18 19 1. What was the basic understanding for how the investigation on November 15, 2012 was to be conducted? 20 21 2. Was this a formal investigation or merely a discovery to obtain preliminary information in order to make a later determination as to what direction to proceed? 22 23 3. Was Debra Horne allowed to conduct a full and complete investigation without disruption or influence from her superiors? 24 25 4. Did Horne interview all essential witnesses and alleged victims prior to placing Frazier back to work? If not, why? 26 27 28 5. Did Horne gain knowledge through interviews on November 15, 2012 that would require her to make a mandatory report of child abuse based on Florida Statutes 39.201(2) (b)? If so why was a call not made? 29 30 6. On November 15, 2012, while at MHS, did Horne inquire from Administrators or witnesses whether a call was made to the abuse hotline or other police agencies? 31 7. Did the investigation go ('cold') after November 16, 2012? If so why? 32 33 34 8. Is there evidence to date that shows a continuance of the investigation between November 16, 2012 and January 9, 2013? January 9th is the date OPS receives a letter from a victim outlining inappropriate interactions with Frazier Page 2 of 181 Rodenck Frazier Manatee High Schoo\ Case No. 12--2D33--OP SECIION II WITNESS LIST: Page 3of181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP SECTION III: INVESTIGATION REPORT: 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 On or about November 14, 2012 Scott Martin who at the time was employed as the Assistant Superintendent for District Support for the School District of Manatee County, received notification from Manatee High School Principal Don Sauer of alleged inappropriate interactions between a school board employee, Roderick Frazier and minor female students. Mr. Martin forwarded this information to the Office of Professional Standards' (OPS). The investigator assigned to the case was OPS Investigator, Debra Horne. Scott Martin was the direct supervisor over Debra Horne. 73 74 On Thursday November 15, 2012 at approximately 11:18am a decision was made to place Mr. Frazier on paid administrative leave (PAL) as outlined in School Board Policy 2.21 (2)(A). 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 SB Policy 2.21 (2) (A) Administrative Leave with Pay - 'The Superintendent or designee is authorized to place employees on administrative leave with pay during investigations into alleged misconduct.' Prior to conducting her first interview on Thursday November 15, 2012 Investigator Horne met with Scott Martin who told her to stop all active investigations because in Martin's words, "this investigation was crucial". Horne stated that Martin told her to "go look at it so that we can decide whether we are going to keep him (Frazier) on paid leave". 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 On August 13, 2013 this Investigator conducted one of two interviews with Scott Martin. During the first interview Martin was asked why Horne was instructed to set aside all of her current investigations in order to get out to Manatee High School (MHS). Martin stated he spoke with Robert Gagnon, Assistant Superintendent of Teaching and Learning Division and there was some concern that the Frazier allegations were based on rumor and innuendo and it was incumbent to get out to MHS quickly in order to avoid the spread of rumors. Martin further stated that Gagnon informed him of previous rumors about Frazier in the past and about an incident where Frazier was riding around in golf carts with female students and that Gagnon had to put an end to that. Gagnon tells Martin that he had no knowledge about the substance of the current allegations but that he was only aware of students sitting on a golf cart with school administrators. Gagnon also expressed to Martin that if he didn't get out to MHS right away, because Frazier was going to be coaching football on Friday night the rumors of him not being there would spread like wild fire and it would put the employee in an even worse position as far as the rumors go. Below is a question and answer series from the recorded interview with Page 4 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 98 99 100 Gagnon about the recorded statements made by Martin and Horne where Gagnon made the statement to get Frazier back on the field. That his (Frazier's) presence would be missed on the football field. 101 102 103 104 105 106 INVESTIGATOR: On or about November 14th date, where you and Martin had a conversation, and I'm saying this to you that it's my belief that this was prior to Martin sending Debra Horne out to Manatee to start the investigation. But during that conversation or conversation on or about the 14th, did you talk to Martin regarding the importance of getting out to Manatee High School as soon as possible and that there would be some implications if they did not do so, there would be some implications on the Friday night football game? 107 108 109 110 111 112 GAGNON: No, absolutely not. My statement was clear again, it was in passing, because I didn't see the note and I've been doing this for 25 years. I started the school. I started the school for abandoned and neglected children. He's reading the note and the investigators reading the note. They know the details. They're crossing me in passing and giving me generic information. My first words were, if he went out and did it, bury him under the school, but I don't see that anywhere in anyone's investigation. 113 114 115 116 [Gagnon's attorney, Mr. Reinhart interjected and said, "you're not here to talk about their investigation, just answer the questions. Everyone understands you're reading the paper and everything else and you're the subject of this, that you're upset, and that they are questioning your integrity. But all Mr. Pumphrey needs to do right now is get your side, just the facts". ] 117 118 119 120 121 122 I apologize. So I told him bury him under the school. And then we talked about who is it about, who is the subject. I said the subjects have been involved with rumors of Rod before. You need to get out there now because if the guy's innocent, his presence will be missed; Nothing to do with football. He's a fifth string assistant football coach, but innocence is innocence and if he's guilty why would we delay an investigation into the most horrific acts that anybody could do? It was to fool around with a child. Get out there now. 123 124 125 126 INVESTIGATOR: Along those lines, I originally asked if you had a conversation with Martin regarding getting out to Manatee as soon as possible and some implications for a football game on a Friday night and I need you to clarify your response. Did you or did you not have that conversation with Martin? 127 GAGNON: Yeah, I said get out there and bury him under the school. 128 129 INVESTIGATOR: Did you talk to Martin specifically about getting out right away because there was a football game on Friday night and that rumors or him not being there would spread like Page 5 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 130 131 wildfire and it would put the employee at an even worse position as far as the rumors go? Did you have that conversation with Martin? 132 133 134 135 136 137 GAGNON: If he wasn't there his presence was going to be missed, but the conversation, the crux of the conversation was the beginning of the conversation which was, these are our kids, we need to get out there and investigate right now. And if he did it, bury him under the school and hold him accountable. The rest was the second piece. Why are we gonna delay investigation into somebody. The public's not going to expect us to do that. They want us to get out there right now. 138 INVESTIGATOR: The Investigation began on the 15th, and that game was a day or two (2) later. 139 140 GAGNON: And I wasn't at the school, I wasn't the principal at the school. I wasn't a coach. I have nothing to do with it at that point. I'm the assistant superintendent. 141 142 143 144 INVESTIGATOR: So why was that so important for you then if you were not at the school, you were not the coach, you were not the principal. Why was it important for you to tell Martin, he needed to get out there immediately or as soon as possible and because there could be some implications with Frazier not being out on the football field? 145 146 147 148 149 150 GAGNON: You're assuming that last piece [Gagnon's attorney, Mr. Reinhart and Gagnon repeated "You're assuming that last piece"] and, it's being blown out of proportion. The first piece that nobody is stating because it doesn't fit, was bury him under the school. Bury him under the school, bury him under the school, bury, I have no affiliation with him, that team, whether the win or lose I could care less. Bury him under the school, were my first words. Now, I know Mr. Martin said that because that's a fact. 151 INVESTIGATOR: You know he said what, I'm sorry? 152 153 GAGNON: I'm sure that he's told the truth and he's said my first words to him go out there and bury that guy under the school. 154 INVESTIGATOR: Where would that come from, how would you know? 155 GAGNON: My words. 156 INVESTIGATOR: How would you know then? 157 GAGNON: Well unless..... Page 6 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 158 159 INVESTIGATOR: You just made a statement to me that you knew for a fact that Scott Martin made the statements that bury this guy if he did something wrong, bury him under the bus. 160 GAGNON: It's the truth. 161 INVESTIGATOR: How do you know that Scott Martin made that statement? 162 163 164 165 GAGNON: He could, he might not be making the statement you're reading me I guess [Gagnon's attorney, Reinhart spoke up and said the question was do you know he's assuming he did this?] I'm assuming because he's an honest guy and he's a guy with integrity. I can't imagine he would ..... 166 INVESTIGATOR: Have you spoken with Scott Martin since this investigation began? 167 GAGNON: Yeah, off and on different things. 168 INVESTIGATOR: Have you spoken to Scott Martin between July 23rd and today's date? 169 GAGNON: What's the 23rd, is that the gag order? 170 171 INVESTIGATOR: No, that's the date I came into this investigation. I started work on July 23rd. Have you spoken to Scott Martin, between ......... 172 GAGNON: I don't believe so. 173 174 INVESTIGATOR: Have you spoken to Scott Martin between the time you received your Paid Administrative Leave? 175 GAGNON: Absolutely not. 176 INVESTIGATOR: August 5th? 177 GAGNON: Absolutely not. 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 INVESTIGATOR: I'm going to ask you specifically because we have, there's a misunderstanding here. You're saying the first part of the statement, the second part of your statement is something that I assumed so I'm going to ask you specifically. Scott Martin makes a statement that you expressed to him that if you didn't get out to Manatee High School right away because Frazier was going to be coaching football on Friday night, the rumors of him not being there would spread like wildfire and it would put the employee in an even worse position as far as the rumors go. That's what Martin says. 185 GAGNON: [Reinhart said: Are you telling me that's true or are you just using this as?] Page 7 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 186 187 188 INVESTIGATOR: First of all I'm not telling you anything. I'm talking to him, ok? You're here as his attorney, but I need to be able to conduct this investigation. If I can't, then I'll conclude this interview. 189 190 GAGNON: [Reinhart said: No, you will not conclude it. Because I'm not obstructing, I want you to complete it. We want to cooperate]. 191 INVESTIGATOR: If that's the case, then you need to give me an opportunity. 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 GAGNON: [Reinhart said: You're talking over me though Mr. Pumphrey. Right now I just want to say something while the record's going that I'm not meaning to butt in and stuff. One thing that I wanted and I asked my client to clarify with you and maybe he will ask me the question, is there's been so much stuff reported in the press and everything. We don't know exactly what anyone's told anybody in the investigation because we're not privy to the investigation. So, if you're saying to Mr. Gagnon, this is something Mr. Martin told me, is he, the question is, is he to take that as truth from you, that this is in fact true, Mr. Martin said that to you in answering the question or is he not to assume anything? That was my point.] 200 201 202 INVESTIGATOR: My statement was very clear. My statement was if I said to you that Scott Martin made this statement is that statement true. That was the question? Do you want me to read it? 203 GAGNON: Sure. 204 205 206 207 208 INVESTIGATOR: Gagnon also expressed to Martin that if he didn't get out to Manatee High School right away, because Frazier was going to be coaching football on Friday night, the rumors of him now being there would spread like wildfire and it would put the employee in an even worse position as far as the rumors go. Did you and Martin have that conversation to the best of your knowledge? 209 210 211 212 GAGNON: It wasn't specific like that. It began with; we need to get out there because if he did something we need to bury him under the school. It began that way and then we definitely, I definitely stated something related to these people, because they have come after him before and I said his presence will be missed. 213 INVESTIGATOR: His presence where? 214 215 216 GAGNON: At the football game, absolutely. People are gonna see that he's not there. Does he need to be there, absolutely not. Do we need a coach; absolutely not. But the bottom line is and the first fact is why would I ever say anything but get out there and do it right now? Page 8 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 217 218 219 220 INVESTIGATOR: I can't tell you what you may say, all I'm asking you is if you had that conversation with Martin and if that conversation had anything to do with getting the investigation going sooner than later. And, that there were some implications if Frazier was not out on the football field on Friday? 221 222 223 GAGNON: It had nothing to do with football, absolutely not. It had to do with getting an investigation going on somebody that may be doing something inappropriately with our kids; getting it going. 224 225 INVESTIGATOR: And were you aware, did you oversee the office of professional standards here in Manatee County when you were assistant superintendent? 226 GAGNON: Never. 227 228 229 INVESTIGATOR: And I'm going to sound like I'm repeating myself, but I'm gonna repeat myself, again. Did you or did you not have a conversation with Martin where you asked Martin to get Frazier back on the field for the playoff game? 230 231 232 233 234 GAGNON: Absolutely not. Not that statement, no. I told him to bury him under the school. This was a conversation that happened in passing and both, not only did I not see the information which I'm a detail person, I'm a person of high integrity, I would need to see the note and what the allegations were. The only thing I knew were the people who made those allegations. And we can show, well we will show what they've done in the past. 235 236 237 238 239 240 Martin was later asked whether he felt at the time (November 15, 2012) that Horne had conducted a full and thorough investigation. Martin stated "well yes, I knew that it wasn't thorough in that she had yet to interview Mr. Frazier; I mean I knew it had not been drawn to a close; I think at the time the concern wasn't is the investigation over, the concern was should Mr. Frazier remain on paid administrative leave". Horne's interview contradicts the statement made by Martin. 241 242 243 244 245 During the Investigator's recorded interview with Horne on August 5, 2013, Horne stated that on November 15, 2012 she interviewed six or seven people as well as Roderick Frazier. On July 30, 2013 a recorded interview was conducted with Horne by the Bradenton Police Department (BPD). During the interview Horne told the detective, "What happened is I went on the day, interviewed all the adults, spoke with Rod (Frazier), while I was there called Scott". 246 247 248 The statements to this Investigator and the BPD detectives contradict the statement made by Martin. The recorded interview between Frazier and Horne took place on November 16, 2012, after Frazier had been taken off of paid administrative leave (PAL) and returned to work. Page 9 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 Horne stated that after conducting the six or seven interviews on November 15, 2012 she met with MHS Principal Sauer and his assistant principals' Faller and Kane. Horne stated that during the meeting a conference call was placed to Scott Martin in order to bring everyone up to speed on her findings. Horne told Martin that based on the November 15th interviews and speaking with the administrators who were each in the room with Horne, (Greg Faller, Matt Kane and Don Sauer) nothing reported to her during her interviews occurred during the 2012/13 school year or caused her great concern. Horne told Martin that she is in the room with MHS administrators and asks Martin for direction. Martin told Horne to come back to his office to discuss the investigation further. 258 259 260 261 262 263 Later in the day, on November 15, 2012, while in the office of Scott Martin, Horne shared her findings and asked if she could go back to MHS in order to continue the investigation. Horne stated, "I asked him if he would like me to go back to the school on the following day and randomly select some students and talk with the students to see if I could ascertain additional information." Mr. Martin told Horne that to go back to MHS to conduct additional interviews "would only serve to stir the pot". 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 During the August 7, 2013 recorded interview, the Investigator asked Martin to explain Horne's initial findings on November 15, 2012. Martin stated that he asked Horne whether she "chased every rabbit trail, is there anything else you could do". Martin clarifies the quote by explaining that what he was asking is whether Horne followed every lead and was she thorough in her investigation. The mere fact that Horne obtained the names of witnesses and alleged victims during her initial visit to MHS but did not interview them prior to Martin reinstating Frazier back to work is a clear indication that Horne did not chase every rabbit trail or pull every thread as asked by Martin. Martin, in his recorded interview with this Investigator, stated he had knowledge that Horne received a list of alleged victims. Even though Martin had knowledge that alleged victims existed and were not interviewed, he told Horne not to continue her investigation because a victim had not come forward. See the below interview questioning between this Investigator and Scott Martin (recorded interview 8/20/2013): 276 277 INVESTIGATOR: Based on the information, tell me, who made the decision, ultimately to take Mr. Frazier off paid administrative leave? 278 MARTIN: I did. 279 INVESTIGATOR: And that decision was based on what? 280 281 MARTIN: Based on the fact that we didn't have any evidence, that he currently represented risk of harm to any staff or students. Page 10 of 181 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12403370? INVESTIGATORZ That decision was based on what? MARTIN: That was based on the feedback that Debbie Horne gave me regarding what her findings were. INVESTIGATOR: Was school still in during that period of time, November Were the kids still going to school? MARTIN: Yes. INVESTIGATOR: So your statement is that you did not feel that Mr. Frazier would have been an immediate threat to whom? MARTIN: Staff or students. That's the standard for. INVESTIGATOR: Tell me again; why you felt that he would not have been a threat to staff or students at that time? MARTIN: Based on Debbie Horne's findings. Each rabbit trail that she chased ended in something that had been, either occurred a long time ago and had already been resolved or something that dead ended in rumor or innuendo. INVESTIGATORZ HOW did you come to the conclusion that it was Old or that It was based on rumoror innuendo? MARTIN: Based on the feedback that she gave me from her findings. INVESTIGATOR: Tell me specifically what that information was with regards to the female on Frazier': lap. Her name was--Teil me, you made a decision to place Frazier back to work on the day afterwards, that following day, the The first day of the investigation, Horne gave you information that she had discovered through her interviews. one of what she gave you was the situation between Frazier and a female student, sitting on his lap. MARTIN: That's correct. INVESTIGATOR: Tell me after hearing that information, why you would put Frazier back on, taken him back off paid administrative leave, and felt there was no immediate threat to any other students or staff at that time? MARTIN: Because that incident had occurred some time ago. That was something that was resolved by administration or at least that was represented to me. As I understood the Page 11 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 311 312 313 314 females, I don't know if I knew at that exact point, but that female student was going to Palmetto high school. So all those factors, including the fact that on the other rabbit trail that Debbie had chased, it ended in rumor and innuendo. It didn't seem that there was any immediate threat to students or staff. 315 316 INVESTIGATOR: How at that time, how did you know that this situation was old and had already been dealt with by administration? 317 MARTIN: It had been told to me by Debbie Horne. 318 INVESTIGATOR: She told you specifically that it had been dealt with by administration? 319 MARTIN: Yes. 320 321 INVESTIGATOR: Did you speak with anyone else about this incident on the 15th of November, which was the first day that she started interviewing? 322 MARTIN: I don't believe so. 323 324 INVESTIGATOR: Once you concluded your meeting with Debbie Horne, on the evening of the 15th, at some point and time, a decision was made to place Frazier back to work? 325 MARTIN: Yes. 326 327 328 INVESTIGATOR: Did you make that decision solely based on the information you received from Debbie Horne or was there some other chain of command there. Did you speak with someone else; did you run it past someone else? How was that decision made? 329 MARTIN: No, that was solely my decision. 330 INVESTIGATOR: So you alone made the decision to place him back to work? 331 MARTIN: Correct. 332 333 INVESTIGATOR: Once he was placed back to work, then what happened? Was the investigation over at that point or not? 334 MARTIN: No, it was not concluded. 335 INVESTIGATOR: It was not concluded; and what determined that it was not concluded? 336 MARTIN: What determined that it was not concluded? 337 INVESTIGATOR: Yeah, why do say it wasn't concluded? Page 12 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 338 339 MARTIN: Debbie still had to write a report, she still had to speak with Mr. Frazier. There were other avenues possibly for her to take after speaking with him. I suppose. 340 341 342 INVESTIGATOR: Just a few minutes ago, you stated to me that you spoke with Debbie, you specifically asked her, did you chase every rabbit trail, did you pull every thread. In other words, did you do a full and complete investigation? Is that right, is that my understanding? 343 344 MARTIN: That's correct. Well, not a full and complete. It was not complete. The investigation was not closed at that point. 345 INVESTIGATOR: So the investigation was not complete? 346 347 348 MARTIN: Correct. It was not, did you do a full and complete investigation. And based on the information that we had and the allegations; had she gone and chased every rabbit trail that had been provided to her.... 349 INVESTIGATOR: And are you convinced that she did? 350 MARTIN: I've never known her to do otherwise, so yes. 351 352 INVESTIGATOR: Well did you review her notes or did you review her recorded interviews on that date; on the 15th, prior to making a decision to bring Frazier back to work? 353 MARTIN: No, that would not be standard practice. 354 INVESTIGATOR: Standard practice? Does standard practice always dictate the right practice? 355 MARTIN: I would hope so yes. 356 357 358 INVESTIGATOR: So you would make a decision to bring back Frazier in this case, solely based on your conversations with Horne, without reviewing her notes or sharing her recorded interviews? 359 MARTIN: Correct. I trust that my administrator did her job. 360 INVESTIGATOR: Did you have knowledge at that point that she did not interview Mr. Frazier? 361 MARTIN: Yes, I believe so. 362 363 INVESTIGATOR: Did you have knowledge during that time that you made the decision to bring Frazier back to work, that she also did not interview Mrs. O'Dell? 364 MARTIN: I don't know. I'm not sure who Ms. O'Dell is. Page 13 of 181 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School case No. 12403370? INVESTIGATOR: Did you have knowledge that she did not Interview-who was an alleged victim? MARTIN: I knew that she did not interview any students. INVESTIGATOR: But yet in your mind, you felt that she did a, well, she chased every rabbit trail? MARTIN: Correct. INVESTIGATORZ She pulled every thread? MARTIN: Ves. INVESTIGATORZ In your mind? MARTIN: Ves. INVESTIGATOR: Based on the information that she obtained on November which was the first day of her interviews? MARTIN: Ves. INVESTIGATOR: Again, you believe well, my questions was, is that the end of the investigation? was the investigation, at that point, concluded? And in your mind it was not concluded because why? MARTIN: The conclusion of an investigation is when the report is complete and it's delivered to the employee, the case formally closed. It was not done. INVESTIGATOR: Besides having to write the report and submit the report to your office, was the investigators fieldwork completed? MARTIN: No. As I said, I knew she still had to speak to Mr. Frazier. INVESTIGATOR: So, there was nothing that Mr. Frazier could tell her that may have, that may dictate that you may need to keep him on paid administrative leave? MARTIN: Not based on the evidence that we had at that point; absent him throwing out a complete confession in spite of everything. INVESTIGATOR: Did you know what Mr. Frazier would say? MARTIN: No, Page 14 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 391 392 INVESTIGATOR: And so you made an assumption of what Mr. Frazier would say? MARTIN: Based on past experiences, yes. 393 394 INVESTIGATOR: Based on past experiences of Mr. Frazier? MARTIN: No. Other employees work place investigations. 395 396 INVESTIGATOR: So every investigation is the same? MARTIN: No. 397 398 INVESTIGATOR: Each investigation is different? MARTIN: Yes. 399 400 401 INVESTIGATOR: But you're determining whether in fact to place him off of paid leave is consistent with other investigations that you've experienced in the past? MARTIN: Yes. 402 403 404 405 INVESTIGATOR: How many other investigations do you recall if there were any other investigations where someone was placed on and off paid leave in a day? Actually it was less than a day but. MARTIN: I don't recall. 406 407 408 409 410 411 INVESTIGATOR: And if I told you I've gone through all the paid administrative leave cases; Debra Horne states that she's done over 800 investigations, of course there are not 800 investigations that required paid leave. If I told you there was only one investigation out of all the paid leave investigations that have been conducted in the Office of Professional Standards where someone was placed on and off in a day, would that be of some concern to you? MARTIN: Concern to me, no. 412 413 414 INVESTIGATOR: Who made the decision not to interview Frazier on the first day, prior to bringing him back to work? MARTIN: I don't know. 415 416 417 INVESTIGATOR: Do you know whether Debbie Horne interviewed any of the victims, prior to placing Frazier back to work? MARTIN: I don't believe she did. 418 419 420 INVESTIGATOR: Was that something that you think is important in order to understand the dynamics of a case of this magnitude? MARTIN: Every case is different; it depends. 421 422 INVESTIGATOR: This case. We're not talking about every case; this case here. Do you believe the dynamics of this case, the dynamics as you knew it on the 14th and 15th, dictated that you Page 15 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 423 424 425 needed to interview the victims or the accused, the alleged accused, Mr. Frazier, prior to placing him back to work? MARTIN: No. 426 427 428 429 430 INVESTIGATOR: Why? MARTIN: Again, based on the evidence that we had the allegations and the fact that the only one I believe had any merit, was acknowledged by Manatee administration, it's something they knew about and dealt with. Again, there was no evidence that there was any risk of harm to staff or students in returning Mr. Frazier at that time. 431 432 433 INVESTIGATOR: Debbie Horne interviews Peebles. Yes or no, prior to you making the decision to place him (Frazier) back to work? MARTIN: I believe that's correct. 434 435 INVESTIGATOR: She interviewed Mr. Gulash? MARTIN: I believe that's correct. 436 437 INVESTIGATOR: She interviewed Mr. Rinder? MARTIN: I believe that's correct. 438 439 440 INVESTIGATOR: During those interviews she at least knew that Mrs. Peebles had witnessed Mr. Frazier with a young lady on his lap; is that true? MARTIN: Yes, I believe it was Peebles. 441 442 443 444 INVESTIGATOR: She also knew on that day of at least one of the two incidents where there was a bottle shoved between a young lady's legs allegedly by Frazier. She knew about that prior to you making a decision. Is that right? MARTIN: I remember something about that, correct. 445 446 447 448 449 INVESTIGATOR: And did you personally speak with any of the administrator's to confirm or deny or to confirm that they had previously dealt with the Frazier incidents in the past. And that they were in fact old or did you trust Debbie Horne's statement to you that she had spoken with the administrator's and the administrator's statements were that these were issues; that were old issues? 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 MARTIN: I think it was a combination of both. Martin provided a recorded interview to the Bradenton Police Department (BPD) where he was questioned about the November 15, 2012 investigation. Martin stated quote "But for all practical purposes yea it was concluded". Martin was also asked by BPD, "What was the determining factor to say the case was done. Who made the decision?" Martin answered, "That would have been my decision". Though Martin was asked the same question by both BPD detectives and this Investigator, Martin gave conflicting answers. Martin told the BPS Page 16 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 detectives the investigation was concluded; he told this Investigator the investigation had not concluded and was still active. Based on this discrepancy, the Investigator conducted an internal audit of the Frazier files in search of notes or other documents that would show an ongoing timeline between November 16, 2012, which was the date Frazier was removed from paid leave, and January 9, 2013, the date the OPS received a formal letter of complaint from a female student victim. There are no notes, recorded interviews or other applicable documents at the OPS office to support that the investigation remained active between these dates. A reasonable conclusion is that the investigation was terminated on November 16, 2012; just one day after the case was opened. 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 At this point in the investigation the evidence suggests that decisions were being made to protect the image of Rod Frazier and his importance to the football team as a coach. There is no evidence at this point to suggest a concern for known victims or possible victims yet to be identified. Based on the recorded interviews of Martin and Gagnon, It appears that Martin and Gagnon influenced the investigation process in order that Frazier be afforded the opportunity to coach in the upcoming football playoff game. It is a fact that Martin and Gagnon provided conflicting information to the Bradenton Police Department and/or the Office of Professional Standards, as evidenced by the inconsistent answers to similar questions asked during both departments' recorded interviews. 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 Robert Gagnon in a recorded statement with the BPD stated he had no knowledge of a conversation between him and Martin where Gagnon told Martin to get Frazier back on the field for the playoff game. During an interview with Christine Ruggiero, the office assistant to Debra Horne, Ruggiero stated that while she and Horne were walking in the lobby of the School Board Building, Robert Gagnon stopped Horne and told her to "get him(Frazier) back out on the field". The Investigator also interviewed Manatee High employee Steve Rinder who stated that on or about November 15, 2012 Debra Horne called him down to the Office of Professional Standards to discuss a letter he wrote to Don Saur, Principal at Manatee High School. During the conversation between Horne and Rinder, Horne made the following statement; "Bob told me to take care of this pretty quickly". Horne also tells Rinder, "Bob say's Gulash and Frazier have been at this for a long time". Rinder adds that after Horne makes the comment, Horne begins to laugh. Rinder states that Horne's laughter made him feel as if his concerns would be discarded, as was past practice with Rod Frazier related complaints reported to Manatee High School Administrators. 489 490 Gagnon also stated in a recorded interview with BPD that he did not remember a conversation between Martin and him regarding Frazier and reports of inappropriate interactions with Page 17 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 491 492 female students other than an incident whereby Frazier was sitting in a golf cart at lunch with female students. 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 During a recorded interview with Gagnon, the Investigator asked if Gagnon remembered a conversation between Gagnon and Horne where Gagnon stated to Horne to get Frazier back out on the field. Gagnon stated that he had no conversations with Horne during the investigation. During the same recorded interview, the Investigator asks Gagnon if he remembered a conversation between him and Martin prior to Horne going out to MHS to begin her investigation. Gagnon stated, "Yea now that I'm I, Scott mentioned in passing that he received a letter, an anonymous letter, something like that". Gagnon stated that Martin mentioned in passing that Martin received an anonymous letter with allegations surrounding Frazier. The Investigator asked Gagnon if Martin asked any questions regarding the allegations against Frazier as stated in the letter. Gagnon answered, "No my first words to Martin were 'If he's done this, bury him under the school, if these allegations are correct'." Gagnon later stated, that Martin asked him if he (Gagnon) knew anything about the allegations contained in the letter. Gagnon told this Investigator that he had not seen the letter, but after Martin gives Gagnon the names of the people contained in the letter, Gagnon told Martin that the people in the letter have made attacks against Frazier in the past. 508 During the September 5, 2013 recorded interview, Gagnon made the following statement: 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 "So my point was first and utmost we need to do, we need to get out and see if he did it and if he did it, we need to go and get the guy period. But if he didn't, these people have come after him before and he could potentially be an innocent person; but I expect a thorough and full investigation from an independent agency that has nothing to do with me within my line of authority, period. The Investigator asks, "And you stated this to Scott Martin? Gagnon answers, "Yes". Gagnon was also asked whether he told Martin that the allegations were based on rumor and innuendo. Gagnon responds that Martin never stated what the allegations were and never showed him the letter, but based on the people that Martin told him were in the letter, Gagnon tells Martin that the people had started rumors about Frazier, but the rumors had to be investigated. Gagnon states that he would anticipate that an attorney and an OPS investigator would go out and do a thorough job. 520 521 522 523 524 When the Investigator asked Gagnon if now on September 5, 2013, he remembers any incidents that were reported to him while the Principal at Manatee High School involving Rod Frazier and inappropriate interactions with female students or female teachers, Gagnon responds, "no, no inappropriate interaction; I've never been reported that there's inappropriate interaction; You mentioned that menstrual cycle, I had seen that, that is a Page 18 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 physiological issue, it is not sexual". Gagnon goes on to explain that he spoke with Matt Kane about the incident and that Frazier stated to Kane that the female student was refusing to go to class because she was having menstrual issues. Gagnon goes on to explain that Frazier told the female student to get to class and that she refused because if she received one more tardy it would be her tenth tardy and she'd get kicked out of school. Frazier claims he told her to go to class, and that he would go to the clinic to get the student a tampax. Gagnon stated again, "It's nothing sexual, it's nothing inappropriate it's physiological". 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 In the recorded interview with Horne that took place on November 15, 2013, Lynn Aragon a teacher at MHS made the following statement: "Mr. Frazier called my room and I was at my desk like this, I was in a science classroom at the time, and he asked for a student, a female student, this happened all the time almost on a daily basis, he would call my room and ask for female students and um she went up and the phone was very close to me like you are to me and she was talking to him and I could tell she was very upset and she was mad and angry. So I asked her about it and I said 'what's the matter, why are you so angry and she sort of acted like she hung up the phone on him (Frazier). And she said, 'oh it's nothing' and I said, 'what is it?' And she goes, 'he called me to ask me if I had my period and if I wanted him to go and get me tampax at the 7-11". 542 See the question and answer exchange between Horne and Aragon below. 543 544 545 546 Horne: At the time that this young lady told you this, did you report it to anyone? Aragon: Yes, well first I called Frazier up and I told him when a girl has her period they go to the nurse at our school, they do not talk to a male voice. Then I sort of just hung up on him because I was really angry. 547 548 Horne: Did he respond at all before you hung up? Aragon: No, then I told Mr. Gagnon who was the principal. I reported it to him. 549 550 At the end of the interview with Horn, Aragon was given an opportunity to add an additional statement. 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 "I came back to ask Mr. Gagnon if it was taken care of and he said, it was. He said he had spoken to Frazier." The undersigned Investigator conducted a phone interview with Ms. Aragon on September 9, 2013. During the interview the Investigator asked Aragon how she told Gagnon about the incident where Frazier asked the female student if she was on her menstrual period and needed a tampax. Aragon stated that after consulting with the MEA Union Representative, Pat Barber, Aragon meets with Gagnon in his office. Aragon told Gagnon that as a union representative, she is meeting with him to discuss concerns that were brought to her attention from a number of teachers regarding Frazier disrupting teacher's classrooms and his conduct Page 19 of 181 550 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 Roderick Frazier Case No. 12403370? Manatee High School with female students. Aragon stated that Gagnon responds to her concerns; "He's okay". Aragon then tells Gagnon that Frazier called her classroom and upset one of her female students by asking if she "got her period". Aragon stated that Gagnon responds, handle it". On the very next day, Aragon goes into Gagnon's office and asked if he handled the Frazier incident. Gagnon told Aragon, handled it". When the Investigator asked Aragon how the situation was handled, Aragon stated, reported it to Bob (Gagnon) and they removed her from my class". The recorded statements by Gagnon and Aragon are conflicting. Aragon was clear that she reported the incident to Gagnori and that Frazier called her class to ask the female student whether she was on her menstrual cycle and needed tamoax from the 7-11 store. Gagnon on the other hand, totally dispels having direct knowledge that Aragon reported the incident to him. Gagnon states that he is only aware of the incident after reading it in the Bradenton Police report then speaking with Matt Kane. The incident as told by Gagnon is different from that being told by Aragon. Aragon states that after conlronting Frazier about the incident, she then reported the incident to Gagnon. Gagnori also states that Ms. Aragon came to his office a lot and that he could not remember her reporting any incidence of Inappropriate interaction between Frazier and female students other than Aragon telling Gagnon about girls sitting in a golf can with Frazier. Gagrion has remained adamant that he is unaware of past allegations of inappropriate interactions between Frazier and female students. The Investigator has outlined four occasions based on interviews, where Gagnori received notice of inappropriate interactions involving Frazier. During the November 15, 2012, recorded interview between Home and Aragon a teacher at MHS, Aragon tells Home of an incident where Frazier calls her classroom and asks one of the female students if she was on her menstrual cycle and needed tampax. Aragon states that she reported the incident to the principal, Robert Gagnori. Ms. Aragon also states that she contacted her union representative about the incident. Gagnon has no direct knowledge of this incident but believes the incident to be one of a 'physiological nature' and not a case of inappropriate interaction with a female student, as per the September 5,2013 recorded interview. During the August 15, 2013 recorded interview between former student _and this of an incident that occurred at MHS between she and Frazier where a female student,_waiks into the ISS room and asks Mr. Frazier if he was coming to the Valentine's Day Lingerie party. Frazier confirmed he would be at the party. Page 20 of 181 534 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 E02 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 E10 611 612 513 614 615 516 617 618 619 620 621 622 E23 624 625 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School case No. ]2--1033r0P --states that after she overheard the conversation she left the room and immediately told the story to Gagnon and two School Resource Officers. Gagnon has no knowledge of this incident as per the September 5,2013 recorded interview. As per the BPD Incident/Investigation Report, an interview was conducted with Donna Coates, Math Teacher, who stated that she went to Gagnon and informed him about a conversation she overheard between two students that Frazier liked white girls and showed favoritism to them. Mr. Gagnon 'informed her that he was aware of the allegation. Gagnon does not remember a conversation with Coates where he informs her that he was aware of the allegation of Frazier and white girls. Gagnon states that he did confront Frazier and other administrators about having female students sitting in their golf carts as per the September 5,2013, recorded interview. As per BPD Incident/Investigation Report, an interview was conducted with Dwayne Strong who was the In School Suspension (ISS) Teacher at Mi-is. During said interview strong states that Mr. Frazier told him that during the Christmas Party he got into a verbal argument with Gagnon because he confronted Gagnon about not hacking him up about allegations regarding several female students hanging around him at the golf cart. Strong stated that Frazier was upset because Gagnun did not stick up more for him. (Note: When this Investigator interviewed Strong, he confirmed that Frazier stated to him that he had an altercation with Gagnon, and that the altercation was because Gagnon did not back Frazier up. Strong does not recall telling ago that Gagnon did not back Frazier up regarding allegations regarding several female students hanging around him at the golf cart.) The Investigator did not question Gagnon on the Christmas party argument at the September 5, 2013 interview. Debra Home by her own testimony has investigated over eight hundred cases during her eight year tenure as an Investigator with the Manatee School District's, Office of Professional Standards. It is the investigator's opinion that Home was negligent in her investigatory responsibilities of November 15, 2012. For example; during the recorded interview between Horne and Frazier, (interview took place November 16, 2012, after Frazier was returned to work) Horne begins the interview by explaining the administrative investigation procedures. While doing so and before asking Frazier any questions, Home makes the following statement; "Based upon what I've been able to do in the last day and a half, I do believe that the allegations that were brought forward are not going to be substantiated." Home further stated Page 21 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 to Frazier; "I feel that you have the right to know what is going on", she then stated to Frazier; "So let me tell you what happened as far as I can put pieces of the puzzle together; it appears that one of your co-workers has brought to the attention of Mr. Rinder some concerns in regard to interactions you have had with students, mainly female and one male student over the last few years as a parent liaison here at Manatee High. In addition to that, a couple of teachers also spoke with Mr. Rinder in regard to some concerns they had. What I think that I'm finding as I put the pieces of the puzzle together is the reason that the female teachers went to Rinder is because the individual who went to Rinder went to them first. So he kind of sparked their contact with Mr. Rinder". Horne then showed Frazier the letter prepared by Rinder and begins a question and answer series based on the original letter of complaint. Based on the interview between Horne and Frazier which takes place after Frazier is returned to work, it is this Investigator's opinion that prior to the interview between Frazier and Horne, it was predetermined that Frazier was innocent of the allegations as stated in the January 8, 2012, letter of complaint submitted to the OPS office by Principal Sauer. Horne clearly led Frazier to believe that he has done nothing wrong and that in her words, "Based upon what I've been able to do in the last day and a half, I do believe that the allegations that were bought forward are not going to be substantiated". 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 Although Horne states that she was consulting with Martin at every turn and that Martin dissuaded her from effectively performing her duties on November 15, 2012; as an investigator with eight years of experience, over eight hundred cases behind her and a great awareness of Florida State Statutes and School Board Policy, Horne was well capable of making the decision to report suspected child abuse. Further, in the recorded interview with Martin on August 8, 2013 the Investigator asked whether Martin believed that on November 15, 2012, Horne conducted a full and complete investigation. Martin stated "no". Martin further stated that the decision to place Frazier back to work "went to the standard that we use for determining whether someone belongs on PAL. PAL is, Does this person represent a current threat to staff or students, that would be the reason and based on what Debbie was able to obtain from MHS at the time again all those paths, rabbit trails, threads however you want to call them, led to either rumor and innuendo or something that had occurred in the past. There was no immediate danger anymore in terms of returning Mr. Frazier back into the classroom or to the school." Manatee School Board Policy regarding the standards for placing persons on Paid Administrative Leave is not consistent with Martin's understanding of SB Policy 2.21 (2) (A) which reads: 660 661 662 Administrative Leave with Pay - 'The Superintendent or designee is authorized to place employees on administrative leave with pay during investigations into alleged misconduct.' Page 22 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 663 664 665 666 667 It should be noted that the Investigator has reviewed past Manatee School District OPS cases where employees were placed on paid administrative leave. There are files that exist where employees remained on paid administrative leave even though no evidence existed that the employee on paid leave presented a current threat to staff or students. Under Martin's standards, these employees should have been returned to work. 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 Horne also stated that she was merely doing what her boss (Scott Martin) told her to do which was to do nothing until a victim came forward. What is troubling is that prior to her meeting with Martin, Horne was told the names of alleged victims. Furthermore, If Horne is being advised by the MHS Administrators, including Assistant Superintendent Gagnon that the allegations were old, why then didn't Horne seek out written verification from MHS administration, Gagnon's office or law enforcement confirming the reporting of suspected child abuse as per statute 1012.795 (4) (b). 675 676 677 678 s. 1012.795 (4) (b) Knowingly failed to report actual or suspected child abuse as required in s. 1006.061 or report alleged misconduct by instructional personnel or school administrators which affects the health, safety, or welfare of a student as required in s. 1012.796. 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 On November 15, 2012, Horne conducts a recorded interview with Jacqueline Peebles. Horne is told of an incident where Peebles walked through a closed door and observed a female student sitting on the lap of Rod Frazier. The information was forwarded from Horne to Martin late in the day of November 15, 2012, but was not acted on until almost two months later when the OPS office received a formal letter of complaint from one of the student victims. Even though Horne and Martin had specific knowledge of said incident, there was no attempt to contact law enforcement; no attempt to verify whether the student was forced onto Frazier's lap and no communication between the school and her parents. As a matter of record, the student's mother tells the Investigator that she first discovered the 'lap' incident between her daughter and Frazier when it was told to her by Horne at an interview in January 2013. 689 690 691 692 693 694 695 696 697 On August 5, 2013, the investigator asked Horne if she was aware of other allegations involving Frazier and female students prior to her initial investigation on November 15, 2012. Horne stated that she was only aware of one incident and that it was an incident that occurred in 2006 or 2007 where either "Frazier reported to OPS or there was a 'Hit' through the HR department about Frazier violating an injunction." The Investigator then asked "Is that the only recollection you have of an investigation of Rod Frazier?" Horne stated, "It's the only one I have, yes sir." The Investigator then refers Horne to an OPS office file named 'screened matters'. The file contains a complaint against Frazier claiming inappropriate interactions between Frazier and a female student. The file also contains an email with handwritten notes made by Horne. After Page 23 of 181 698 699 700 701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 710 711 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12403370? bringing the file to Horne's attention, Horne immediately begins to detail the circumstances by which she received the complaint; she names the people she spoke with during the inquiry, along with the month and year the complaint was forwarded to ops. On July 30, 2013 while being interviewed by the BPD the detetlive asks Horne "Why didn't we get a call?" Home states to the BPD detective, "it was discussed; it was definitely discussed." The BPD detective continues the questioning of Home and after telling Home that Frazier was in a position of authority at the school, and that a teacher witnessed the student sitting on Frazier's lap, Horne makes the following statement: "a call should have been made, but it was not my call." Horne is stating that a call to law enforcement should have been made. Du ring the same interview with BPD detectives Horne states that during the November 15'" investigation Martin made it clear that he did not want her to do any 'digging'. Home is also questioned about why she left the Office of Professional Standards. Home offers a number of explanations for her transfer to Prine Elementary School. One explanation is that she was moved from the DPS office as a result of budget cuts. A second explanation was told to the BPD during a recorded intennew. In this interview Horne states, "The writing is on the wall that the department (OPS) is going to close. We have three or four new board members; we're getting a new superintendent; the superintendent is hired by the board members; the board members don't believe that a full time person is needed in this particular department." The third explanation is offered by Scott Martin during an August 20, 2013 recorded interview with this Investigator. Martin states "she left as a result of Dr. David Gayler, who was Superintendent at the time; strongly advising her that she should request a transfer because the Office of Professional Standards was under fire and my own summary of it was that he kind of felt that she was being unfairly targeted and that she was a good administrator and that it would be in her best interest to request a transfer". On August 22, 2013, the Investigator discovered an email from someone by the name of- The email was addressed to the school board and the superintendent's office. The subject of the email was; 'Office of Professional Standards Investigator Debbie Horne'. In the email _was notifying the superintendent about an incident where an inappropriate text message was allegedly sent from Mike Home, the husband of Debra Home, to Eddie Hundley the principal at Palmetto Elementary School. The email stated that Mike Home was at a Chili's restaurant with friends discussing a recent school board meeting. Apparently, the Union and -shared concerns about Debra Horne's investigative inexperience. Mike Home is apparently intoxicated at the time, and decides to send a very offensive and sexual in nature text to Principal Hundley. Hundley attempts to contact Mike Home about the text but when he doesn't answer the phone, Hundley contacts Debra Home to Inquire about why her husband would send such a Page 24 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 733 734 735 736 737 738 text message. Debra Horne is eventually called into Superintendent Gayler's office along with Scott Martin. Superintendent Gayler states that with Debra Horne's credibility already being in question, the mere presence of said text message would leave her no credibility left with anyone. Superintendent Gayler states that he was very concerned about Debra Horne's investigative training. He felt she was not skilled enough for the position and that more training was needed. 739 740 741 742 On May 30, 2013, Robert Gagnon was issued a 'Letter of Concern' by Rick Mills, Superintendent of the School District of Manatee County. The letter addressed two instances in which Gagnon disregarded directives previously issued him by Mr. Mills. Only one of these initiatives is related to the Frazier investigation: 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 On April 25, 2013, you entered the campus at Manatee High School and unnecessarily interacted with Stephen Gulash, an employee who is involved as a witness in both the criminal and workplace investigations of MHS employee Rod Frazier. You took this action despite my clear directives to you to not enter the campus of MHS and to avoid any interaction with any personnel at the school. "I recognize that your wife works at and your son attends MHS, and I fully credit the investigator's findings that your presence at MHS on April 25, 2013 was occasioned by 'Take Your Child to Work Day' and that your interaction with Mr. Gulash was innocuous. It is for those reasons that I have decided not to issue discipline. However, I want to emphasize that I expect all of my directives to be adhered to without exception, including the expectation that you not enter the MHS campus absent express approval from me. 754 755 I was not pleased to learn of the above incidents, I expect you to exhibit better decision making and discretion going forward. Any further issues of this nature will result in discipline." 756 757 758 759 760 761 762 763 764 On Friday August 30, 2013, a certified letter was sent to Gagnon outlining School Board Policy regarding his obligation to fully cooperate in a School Board Investigation. Multiple attempts had been made by the Office of Professional Standards to contact Gagnon for an interview. The investigator left several messages on Gagnon's home phone to no avail. Gagnon was ordered to contact the Office of Professional Standards immediately and advised that failure to do so would lend grounds for recommending he be placed on leave without pay based on School Board Policy 6.13 (4) (a) (b). Gagnon receives the certified letter on Saturday August 31, 2013 then leaves a message on the Investigators voicemail. Gagnon was interviewed by this Investigator on September 5, 2013. 765 School Board Policy 6.13 (4) (a) (b). Page 25 of 181 766 767 768 759 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12403370? a. All Board employees shall cooperate fully with ms or other appropriate authorities who are conducting investigations. 27. Failure to cooperate completely and truthfully will subject on employee to disciplinary action. MATTHEW KANE: Assistant Principal, School District of Manatee County Interview: Steve Gulash, Parent Liaison Mr. Gulash states that approximately two years ago he witnessed Mr. Frazier place a water bottle between a female student's legs as she was walking from a junior varsity softball game at GT Bray Park. Gulash further states that he informed Matt Kane of the incident and is told by Kane that he would address the incident with Frazier. Interview: Jacqueline Peebles, Teacher MHS Mrs. Peebles states that while walking down the hallway she noticed students fighting. she rushed into the office of Frazier and noticed a female student sitting on Frazier's lap. Peebles states that she screamed for the student to get off of Frazier's lap. Peebles stated that she reported the incident to Matt Kane who told her that he would take care of it. Peebles went on to mention that during one of her classes, she confiscated the phone of one of her female students. Peebles states that she looked at the text messages on the cell phone and noticed sexual innuendo. The text messages were from Frazier. Peebles tells Kane. |nterview:--former student, MHS During said interview the Investigator asks -to explain the water bottle incident. --esponse was that the incident happened on two separate occasions, the first while at a softball game and then again while she was sitting on a golf cart at the school. The investigator asks if she reported the incident to anyone and she states that she reported the golf cart incident to Mr. Kane. Interview - Matthew Kane, Assistant Principal, MHS On August 9, 2013 the Investigator conducted a recorded interview with Mr. Kane to verify statements made during previous interviews with Gulash, 'and Peebles. The first question asked to Kane is if he had knowledge of a February 13, 2012 complaint forwarded through email to him from Debra Horne. The email was regarding inappropriate behavior between Rod Frazier and a female student. Horne stated in a previous interview that she forwarded the complaint to Kane asking that he look into the allegations. Home asks Kane to Page 26 of 181 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 813 814 815 816 817 818 819 820 821 822 823 824 825 826 827 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12403370? provide the appropriate directives to Frazier. The investigator asks Kane ir he remembers the call from Home or the allegations. Kane states that he does not remember. The Investigator shows Kane a copy of the email that was forwarded to him. On the email are handwritten notes from Home that states; -- Kane Updated Kane; He will speak w/Frazier issue oral directives to remain professional when dealing w/ students.' Kane is asked again if he remembers a conversation with Home or remembers the email. Kane states that he does not recall the incident. The investigator later asks Kane if he knows a Mrs. Peebles. Kane states yes, that she is a teacher at Manatee High School. Kane is then asked if Mrs. Peebles notified him of an incident where she walked into a closed door and witnessed a female student sitting on Frazier's Lap. Kane responds that he does not remember. Mr. Kane is then asked whether Mr. Gulash, a parent liaison at MHS, reported to him that Frazier forced a bottle between a female student's legs from behind her. Mr. Kane's response is that he doesn't remember. Mr. Kane IS then asked if he remembers a meeting with Mr. Sauer on or about November 14, 2012 when Sauer receives a letter of complaint from Steve Kinder. Sauer asks Kane if he has any information regarding the allegations in the letter submitted by Rinder. Sauer states that Kane told him the complaints were old and that Kane had already looked into the complaint. Kane responds that he cannot say whether he told Sauer that or not because it was many months ago and he would have to see what the allegations are. Finally, Kane is asked if he was familiar with a golf cart incident where Frazier shoved a bottle between a female student's legs; Kane responds, GREGG FALLER, Assistant Principal, School District of Manatee County Interview: former Parent Liaison, Manatee High School Durin the interview with Mrs.-he investigator was told that while Frazier was training he rubbed his foot up and down her leg. felt very drrended by Frazier's actions and told him so. also shared that on another occasion Frazier showed up at her classroom window and winked at her. The Investigator asked --if she reported any of the incidents to school administration; she stated that the touching of her leg incident was reported to Gregg Faller. She also stated that Faller asked if he needed to speak with Frazier and she informed Faller that she had already addressed it with Frazier. Interview: Jacqueline Peebles, Teacher, Manatee High school (Interview conducted by Debra Horne) Page 27 of 181 828 829 830 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 S52 853 854 855 856 857 858 859 860 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12403370? Peebles states; "--both brought to my attention that they were getting text messages and phone calls from Mr. Frazier that were inappropriate in the time they were made and what they said". Horne asks: Did they show you any of the text messages? Peebles replies; "Ves. would Show me that he just texted her, but she wouldn't let me read [the text]. I believed at the time it was because she was responding and it was probably inappropriate and she did not want to be in trouble". Horne asks: How long ago was this situation with - Peebles replies: "Not this school year or last, but the one prior; 2010-2011. was a student here and then she left to go the Life Program. I taught both so I knew her in both circumstances and that was at the beginning of last school year. She actually showed me texts and they were inappropriate in my mind. Things like, two o'clock in the morning, 'what are you up to,' 'who are you thinking about 'arid 'you'll never guess what I'm thinking about'.'' Home asks: Those texts were from Mr. Frazier to-- Peebles replies: "At first I didn't believe it. You know how kids will do their thing. I thought she just put anybody's phone number in there and put his name. I said let me see. I didn't want to see 'Rod Frazief I wanted to see the phone number. I happen to have had Mr. Fraziel"s phone because I was late a couple times and needed him to cover my class. So then I knew he was sending them to her. She said, 'that's the reason I left the high school.' She said, 'there are other things miss.' He was at a bar and she was too young to be at a bar. She was there and he was. she said that he was rubbing up against her and whispering things in her ear. She said, 'miss he knew I wasn't twenty one (21) and I shouldn't be drinking.' The kids are as bad in behavior as So those are the kinds of things that the students were sharing with me". Home asks: What did you do with that information last year about- Peebles replies: ''It was at the very beginning of last year. lwent There are other things that happened too. Then I was concerned. I said to Gulash, the other concerns that weren't these specific things, I said to Gulash, 'hey should these things be happening. How do you handle it?' I asked, 'why are my referrals disappearing on certain white female students?' Gulash Said, 'tell me what you know.' Then we had a very frank and open talk, like we were friends. I've known Steve Gulash since he was a boy. We had a very frank discussion. I'm like Steve all these things are happening. Oh my gosh. The kids are telling me. He said, 'you've got to tell someone now that you have something concrete.' So I went and told Mr. Faller. He said, 'haven't really heard these specific allegations until recently. Let me jump on Page 28 of 181 861 862 863 864 865 856 867 868 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 883 884 885 886 887 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. ]2--1033r0P Interview: Steve Gulash During the interview, Gulash states that after his interview with Home he remembered an incident that took place at a softball game that he didn't share at the time of his interview. Gulash states that he called Mr. Faller and told him that he remembered the incident and wanted to know whether he needed to contact Debby Home to let her know what he remembered. Faller told Gulash that there was no need to do that because it appeared through their debriefing with Debby Home that Gulash and Rinder had a personal vendetta against Mr. Frazier and that Gulash needed to be careful about making accusations when someone's professional career is involved. Gulash stated that he reiterated again that he has shared nothing but the truth and that he stands behind every statement that he has made to school administrators and law enforcement. Interview: Jacqueline Peebles During an interview with this Investigator, Mrs. Peebles states that she had a conversation with a student by the name of 'jinforrned Peebles that Frazier approached her at Tequila Beach while she was still a student at Manatee High School. Peebles states that I showed her text messages from Frazier. Peebles states that she notified Mr. Faller. Below is an interview conducted by Debra Home with Jacqueline Peebles. "Other things like I would send a referral down. would know for sure I did there's no doubt when you fill one out. vou keep your copy. I would never hear a result on it. I'm like, 'what's going on?' I would go down. would be told,] 'No, no one got that.' I'm like no, I have my copies here. It was always these young ladies; these same group oryoiing ladies that would ride around on the golf cart, sitting on Frazier's lap, and hanging out with him the all the lunch period. That's one of the things that I brought to Greg Fa||er's attention. How inappropriate it was that these girls in short shorts are hanging allover Mr. Frazier riding around in the golf cart. we have a crippled girl with a broken leg. We're not giving her a ride on the golf cart. These things just didn't seem appropriate to me. These same girls, any time I would turn in a referral they would magically disappear". Page 29 of 181 888 889 890 891 892 893 894 895 896 897 898 899 900 901 902 903 904 905 906 907 908 909 910 911 912 913 914 915 916 917 918 919 920 921 Roderick Frazier Case No. ]2--2033r0P Manatee High School Peebles later makes this statement: "So, suddenly started getting my referrals back, but then they still wouldn't be in the system. Frazier would write them up but not enter them Just sol would be satisfied, but then they would somehow disappear and he would blame it on the computer. Really that's it." "There's the worst thing was-showing me these messages that had a sexual innuendo to them. It didn't say come over and have sex. Then suddenly a child, practically sleep on their backpack, bolts up, 'miss I forgot to tell you, Mr. Frazier told me to come down to his office and if you had any questions that I'm supposed to be there, just ask him.' He would have iust texted them in class, 'come on down to my office.' Afterthat started happening repeatedly I said, 'Mr. Frazier we're in the middle ofa test. What is it that you need this person for? I need them in class.' He would say, 'ifyou have to, just send them at the end. It's not that important.' when he realized I was saw to the circumstancesthen that kind of changed. lsaw the 'hing and the 'hing. I told Faller." Horne: Did you tell Faller the incident involving sitting on the lap with the cake? Peebles replies: "Ves. I told Faller everything." Interview: Kellie Reading Teacher, Manatee High School [Interview conducted by Debra Horne) Horne: Mr. Gulash told me that sometime about a week to a week and a half ago, he had a conversation with you in regard to Rod Frazier and some concerns you had about Mr. Frazier's interactions with students. is this accurate? 0'De|| replies: would not say it was a week ago. It's been a while. But I will tell you that I have gone to administration before in regard to Frazier'. Horne: Was that this school year? Peebles replies: "No, last school year". Home: Do these concerns Involve Interactions in regards to Mr. Frazier and female students? Peebles replies: Yes. Horne: Can you share with me the concern so I can see if it was already addressed? Peebles replies: "Last year or in the last two years, I had two students who were asking me to go to Frazier's office. They went there quite often". Home: What are their names? Peebles replies: -- and --I said no you are not go' About ten (10) to fifteen (15; minutes later Mr. Frazier called and said, 'would you send hand jup to my office?' I said sure. After I hung up the phone I asked them, 'what did you guys Page 30 of 181 922 923 924 925 926 927 928 929 930 931 932 933 934 935 936 937 938 939 940 941 942 943 944 945 946 947 948 949 950 95 1 952 953 954 955 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. ]2--1033r0P do text him and tell him to get you out of class?' They were like, 'yeah.' They thought It was funny and I got upset. These were two (2) kids who did not pass the first FCAT. My job is to teach them how to pass the FCAT. I was really upset because we had work to do. They went down the remainder of the period and never returned. I would say this was for the last twenty (20) orthirty (30) minutes of class. And that's that. I do have students that go down there this year. Gulash may have said something to me about that this year. Her name is There is not anything there. It is not my business It is not so much that it is inappropriate; she just spends a lot of time there. I think Gulash may have because I went down there one day to help out one of my ESE students and walked out. She spends so much time there. 50 if that was about a week we haven't talked about that so much this year. I do have this student that does go down and spend a lot of time there". Horne: So in understand correctly, your concerns with Frazier and some possible inappropriate interactions with students were in the past? Peebles replies: "Ves". Horne: Did you address your concerns with Administration? Mr. Faller? Peebles replies: Wes". Home: Do you feel they were addressed and that they are not occurring this year? Peebles replies: "One of them is at PHS. I have no idea if they were addressed or not". Gregg Faller was interviewed on February 11, 2013 by the EPD. During said interview the detective asked Faller is he ever witnessed anything that would concern hirn regarding Frazier's interaction with female students. Faller informed the detective that he did not. Faller further states to the detective that all he saw in Frazier was a caring person who enioyed his job. Faller stated that he had heard things about Frazier, but that it was all stuff that had occurred prior to Fa||er's arrival. Faller later states that the only complaint regarding Frazier came to his attention by Mrs. who was upset because Frazier was contacting students via text and pulling them out of class. Faller states that he did not address Mrs. 0'Del|'s concern about pulling students out of class because he was not in the business of determining if Mrs. O'Dell's complaints were accurate. Faller also told the BPD detectives that he had no knowledge about the concerns expressed by Gulash, Peebles or- The BPD conducted a second interview with Gregg Faller. During this interview the detective is asking Faller how an assistant principal would not know what was being alleged about his subordinate. Faller states that he never saw any need to address anything with Frazier, because he did not know anything and that all that he knows is that Frazier was a caring and Page 31 of 181 956 957 958 959 950 961 962 963 954 965 966 957 958 969 970 971 972 973 974 975 976 977 978 979 980 981 982 983 984 985 986 987 Roderick Frazier Case No. 12403370? Manatee High School hardworking employee. Faller again denied knowledge of complaints bought to his attention by Gulash, Peebles and --. On August 9, 2013, the Investigator interviewed Gregg Faller. Below is a transcription of the retarded interview: INVESTIGATOR: Mr. Faller, where are you employed currently? FALLER: Palmetto High School. INVESTIGATOR: How long have you been there? FALLER: A week. INVESTIGATOR: Where were you employed prior? FALLER: Manatee High School. INVESTIGATOR: I just need to ask you a couple of questions. I'm going to take you back November 14, 2012. November 14"' was the day that Mr. Sauer forwarded a letter of complaint to the Office of Professional Standards. As a result of that letter, the Office of Professional Standards then placed Rod Frazier on PAL. On November the investigator then, Debra Horne, came out to Manatee High School and interviewed a number of people. My question to you is; if you remember; do you know how many complaints or concerns were directed to you with regards to Mr. Frazier, priorto the date the investigation is opened? FALLER: There were two. INVESTIGATORZ What were those two? FALLER: One was and i don't know the date, it was the first year I was there. Jacque Peebles came to me and told me about a texting incident in her class. I guess Rod needed to see a student and texted the student while in the classroom and asked her to come to his office. And at that point when she was talkingto me she let me know that prior, the year prior to me being there, she also witnessed an incident of a girl sitting on his knee, feeding him cake, in his office. And she explained to me that she just wanted me to know that, she had talked to Administration about the incident and believed it was dealt with. so at that point I just addressed the texting and said we are not going text for kids to come out of class, we are going to email or phone call, and left it at that. INVESTIGATOR: Did she say who she spoke with in regards to the young lady sitting on his lap? FALLER: Shejust said that she reported it to Administration. She did not tell me the individuals who she spoke to. INVESTIGATOR: What was the second time? Or was that the Second time? Page 32 of 181 988 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1018 1019 1020 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12403370? FALLERZ That was the The WES, and the ROY 35k me about incident and since then I have read it in the paper. -- who is now again, I believe, I don't know. at the time, was a parent liaison and I asked Rod to assist her and train her on the FOCUS program, that our student input data. She came to me one afternoon, don't remember the date, and said he made advances toward her. At that point, I asked her, "Do you want to rile a former complaint" I'll need a written grievance against him, from you and if you do that we can address it. Or, we can go right to the SRO and address it that way. And she said, "No, i"m good ljust don't want him doing it again." INVESTIGATOR: what exactly was her allegation? FALLER: She said he made some advances and rubbed her leg. And what's her full name? FALLER: I'm not sure how to spell it. INVESTIGATOR: Can you remember any other reported incidents prior to November 15"' which would have been the date our investigator came down. FALLER: Honestly no. INVESTIGATOR: Did Mrs. Peebles talk with you about a text that had sexual innuendo and that stated, love you" in a text message? FALLER: NO. INVESTIGATOR: This would have been a message to _student. FALLER: No. It was strictly to come to his office. INVESTIGATOR: I don't want you to think it was the same text, but is there another occasion where she may have reported to you a text sent to a young lady, he loves her? FALLER: That was never discussed or told to me. INVESTIGATOR: How about Mrs. Peebles informed you about girls sitting with Frazier on his golf Carl, during lunch and the fact that she thought it was inappropriate. FALLER: I don't know if she actually addressed me. I made it a rule that no students, girls or guy, should be in the golf cart unless there's a purpose for it. And I stood up for that rule the whole time I was there. Any time I saw it, it was addressed and questioned. I don't recall her discussing that individual issue with me. INVESTIGATOR: Mrs. Peebles, in at least one interview, says that she told you about sexual innuendo and i love you in text messages. And that your response was that she was not the only one with those concerns. Does that refresh your memory? FALLER: No sir. Page 33 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1021 1022 INVESTIGATOR: Were you interviewed by Debra Horne? FALLER: No. 1023 1024 1025 1026 1027 INVESTIGATOR: Mrs. Horne stated that she spent most of the day at MHS on the 15th. Which was the day after Rod Frazier was placed on PAL. And she said after her interviews with all the teachers, she met in a conference room and she said that Sauer, Kane, you and two others she said, were in that room. Do you recall? FALLER: Yes, I recall being there. 1028 1029 INVESTIGATOR: Do you recall who else was in the room? FALLER: No I don't. 1030 1031 INVESTIGATOR: Do you recall Sauer being in the room? FALLER: Yes. 1032 1033 INVESTIGATOR: You obviously recall Kane being in the room? FALLER: Correct. 1034 1035 INVESTIGATOR: But you don't know who else was in the room? FALLER: I don't believe anybody was, but I could be wrong. 1036 1037 1038 1039 1040 INVESTIGATOR: Did Debra Horne ask you guys about Frazier and did she talk to you about what she found in her interviews on that day? Did she give you guys a summary of what she found; what she didn't find? FALLER: She spoke to us about real basic information that she felt like it was rumor and hearsay, but no specific interview, conversations or anything like that. It was very short. 1041 1042 1043 INVESTIGATOR: During that interview, did she contact Scott Martin, here at the District, on a conference call? FALLER: I don't know. Honestly. 1044 1045 INVESTIGATOR: You don't remember a conference call with Martin? FALLER: Honestly no. I'm being honest. 1046 1047 1048 INVESTIGATOR: Did she ever ask you if you had investigated or looked into issues with regard to Rod Frazier, prior to her getting there? FALLER: She never spoke to me individually. 1049 1050 INVESTIGATOR: Did she speak to the group of you? FALLER: Just at the end. 1051 1052 INVESTIGATOR: Did she ask you any questions with regards to whether in fact Mr. Frazier had been disciplined in the past or whether you had addressed any of these situations with Mr. Page 34 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1053 1054 1055 Frazier in the past or whether any teachers had brought any of this information to your attention? She did not ask you that? FALLER: She didn't ask me anything. 1056 1057 1058 1059 1060 1061 1062 INVESTIGATOR: To date is there anything else that you have and you think may be able to help me in my trek for the truth? FALLER: I wish I did. Honestly. It's a matter of I was there three years and I can honestly say if these things happened I don't know where they would have happened. I never saw anything that concerned me with Rod and interactions with any students. He dealt with a lot of students; probably my parent liaison that carried most of the duties, and worked the hardest. I think that shows beyond mentoring, coaching, I've never seen him do anything inappropriate. Page 35 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP CONCLUSION: 1063 1064 1065 1066 Based upon information obtained during the investigation, it is this Investigator's sole opinion that Gregg Faller, Assistant Principal; Robert Gagnon, Assistant Superintendent on Assignment; Debra Horne, Assistant Principal; Matthew Kane, Assistant Principal and Scott Martin, Staff Attorney, and by each of their actions and/or inactions violated the following rules: 1067 1068 1069 1070 1071 1072 1073 1074 Policy 6.11, Policies and Procedures Manual, School Board of Manatee County, provides that an employee may be temporarily suspended with or without pay or permanently terminated from employment for just cause, including but not limited to, immorality, misconduct in office, incompetence, gross insubordination, willful neglect of duty, drunkenness, or conviction of any crime involving moral turpitude, violation of the Policies and Procedures Manual of the School Board of Manatee County, violation of any applicable Florida Statute, violation of the Code of Ethics and the Principals of Professional Conduct of the Education Profession in Florida. Just cause exists to discipline the employee based upon the following: 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 1080 1081 1082 1083 1084 1085 1086 1087 1088 1089 1090 1091 1092 1093 1094 1095 1012.795(4) (b) which states, Knowingly failed to report actual or suspected child abuse as required in s. 1006.061 or report alleged misconduct by instructional personnel or school administrators which affects the health, safety, or welfare of a student as required in s. 1012.796 Rule 6B-1.001(2), F.A.C., which states the educator's primary professional concern will always be for the student and that the employee exercises the best professional judgment and integrity. Rule 6B-1.001(3), F.A.C., which states the educator is aware of the importance of maintaining the respect and confidence of one's colleagues, of students, of parents, and of other members of the community, and therefore strives to achieve and sustain the highest degree of ethical conduct. Rule 6B-1.006(3)(a), F.A.C., which states the obligation to the student requires that the individual shall make reasonable effort to protect the student from conditions harmful to learning and/or to the student's mental and/or physical health and/or safety. Rule 6B-1.006(5) (a), F.A.C., which states the obligation to the profession of education requires that the individual shall maintain honesty in all professional dealings. Rule 6A.10-081(5h), F.A.C., which states the employee shall not submit fraudulent information on any document in connection with professional activities. Rule 6A.10-081(5n) F.A.C., which states an employee shall report to appropriate authorities any known allegation of a violation of the Florida School Code or State Board of Education Rules as defined in Section 231.28(1), F.S. The undersigned Investigator swears and/or affirms that the information contained in said report is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge and belief Signature of Preparer: _______________________ / ____________ Page 36 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP RECORDING TRANSCRIPTION Page 37 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1096 1097 1098 Gregg Faller: 1099 Troy Pumphrey, Investigator and Gregg Faller, Assistant Principal, Palmetto High School August 9, 2013 @ 2:10 PM 1100 1101 INVESTIGATOR: Mr. Faller, where are you employed currently? 1102 FALLER: Palmetto High School. 1103 1104 INVESTIGATOR: How long have you been there? 1105 FALLER: A week. 1106 1107 INVESTIGATOR: Where were you employed prior to? 1108 FALLER: Manatee High School. 1109 1110 1111 1112 1113 1114 1115 1116 INVESTIGATOR: I need to ask you a couple of questions. I'm going to take you back to November 14, 2012. November 14th is the day that Mr. Sauer forwarded a letter of complaint to the Office of Professional Standards. As a result of that letter, the Office of Professional Standards then placed Rod Frazier on PAL. On November 15th the investigator then, Debra Horne, came out to Manatee High School and interviewed a number of people. My question to you is, if you remember, do you know how many complaints or concerns were directed to you with regards to Mr. Frazier, prior to the date that we came into to open the investigation? 1117 FALLER: There were two. 1118 1119 INVESTIGATOR: What were those two? 1120 1121 1122 FALLER: One was and I don't know the date, it was the first year I was there. Jacque Peebles came to me and told me about a texting incident in her class. I guess Rod needed to see a student and texted the student while in the classroom and asked her to come to his office. And Page 38 of 181 1123 1124 1125 1126 1127 1128 1129 1130 1131 1132 1133 1134 1135 1136 1137 1138 1139 1140 1141 1142 1143 1144 1145 1146 1147 1148 1149 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12403370? at that point when she was talking to me, she let me know that prior, the year prior to me being there, she also witnessed an incident ofa girl sitting on his knee, feeding him take, in his office. And she explained to me that she just wanted me to know that, she had talked (0 Administration about the incident and believed it was dealt with. So at that point I just addressed the texting and said we are not going text rar kids to came put of class, we are going to email or phone call, and left it at that. INVESTIGATOR: Did she say who she spoke with in regards to the young lady sitting on his lap? FALLER: She lust Said that she reported It to Administration. She did not tell me the who she spoke to. INVESTIGATOR: What was the second time? Or was that the second time? That was the first. The second was, and the detectives did not ask me about this incident and since then I have read it in the paper. --hO is new again, 2: believe, I am know. an the time was a parent liaison and . asked Rod to assist her and train her on the FOCUS program, that our student input data. She came to me one afternoon, don'! remember the date, and said he made advances tuward her. At that point, i asked her, "Do vou want to file a former complaint" I'll need a written grievance against him, from you and if you do that we can address it. Or, we can go right tothe sac and address it that way. And she said, "No, I'm good ljust don't want him doing it again." INVESTIGATORZ What exactly was her allegation? FALLER: She said he made some advances and rubbed her leg. INVESTIGATORI And what's her full name? FALLER: I'm nat sure how ta spell it. Page 39 of 181 1150 1151 1152 1153 1154 1155 1156 1157 1158 1159 1160 1161 1162 1163 1164 1165 1166 1167 1168 1169 1170 1171 1172 1173 1174 1175 1176 Roderick Frazier Case No. ]2--1033r0P Manatee High School INVESTIGATOR: Can you remember any other reported incidents prior to November 15"" which would have been the date our investigator came down. FALLER: Honestly no. INVESTIGATOR: Did Mrs. Peebles talk with you about a text that had sexual innuendo and that stated, love you" in a text message? FALLER: No. INVESTIGATOR: This would have been a message to'student. FALLER: No. It was strictly to come to his office. INVESTIGATORI I don't want you to think it was the same text, but is there another occasion where she may have reported to you a text sent to a young lady; he loves her? FALLER: That was never discussed or told to me. INVESTIGATOR: How about Mrs. Peebles informed you about girls sitting with Frazier on his golf can during lunch and the ract that she thought it was inappropriate. FALLER: I don't know if she actually addressed me. I made It a rule that no students, girls or guy, should be in the golf cart unless there's a purpose for it. And I stood up for that rule the whole time I was there. Any time I saw it, it was addressed and questioned. I don't recall her discussing that individual issue with me. INVESTIGATOR: Mrs. Peehles, in at least one interview, says that she told you about sexual innuendo and I love you in text messages. And that your response was that she was not the only one with those concerns. Does that refresh your memory? FALLER: No sir. Page 40 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 1177 INVESTIGATOR: Were you interviewed by Debra Horne? 1178 Case No. 12-2033-OP FALLER: No. 1179 1180 1181 1182 1183 INVESTIGATOR: Mrs. Horne stated that she spent most of the day at Manatee High School on the 15th. Which was the day after Rod Frazier was placed on PAL. And she said after her interviews with all the teachers, she met in a conference room and she said that Sauer, Kane, you and two others she said, were in that room. Do you recall? 1184 FALLER: Yes, I recall being there. 1185 1186 INVESTIGATOR: Do you recall who else was in the room? 1187 FALLER: No I don't. 1188 1189 INVESTIGATOR: Do you recall Sauer being in the room? 1190 FALLER: Yes. 1191 1192 INVESTIGATOR: You obviously recall Kane being in the room? 1193 FALLER: Correct. 1194 1195 INVESTIGATOR: But you don't know who else was in the room? 1196 FALLER: I don't believe anybody was, but I could be wrong. 1197 1198 1199 1200 INVESTIGATOR: Did Debra Horne ask you guys about Frazier and did she talk to you about what she found in her interviews on that day? Did she give you guys a summary of what she found; what she didn't find? Page 41 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 1201 1202 Case No. 12-2033-OP FALLER: She spoke to us about real basic information that she felt like it was rumor and hearsay, but no specific interview, conversations or anything like that. It was very short. 1203 1204 1205 INVESTIGATOR: During that interview, did she contact Scott Martin, here at the District, on a conference call? 1206 FALLER: I don't know. Honestly. 1207 1208 1209 INVESTIGATOR: You don't remember a conference call with Martin? 1210 FALLER: Honestly no. I'm being honest. 1211 1212 1213 INVESTIGATOR: Did she ever ask you if you had investigated or looked into issues with regard to Rod Frazier, prior to her getting there? 1214 FALLER: She never spoke to me individually. 1215 1216 INVESTIGATOR: Did she speak to the group of you? 1217 FALLER: Just at the end. 1218 1219 1220 1221 1222 INVESTIGATOR: Did she ask you any questions with regards to whether in fact Mr. Frazier had been disciplined in the past or whether you had addressed any of these situations with Mr. Frazier in the past or whether any teachers had brought any of this information to your attention? She did not ask you that? 1223 FALLER: She didn't ask me anything. 1224 1225 Page 42 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1226 1227 1228 INVESTIGATOR: To date is there anything else that you have and you think may be able to help me in my trek for the truth? 1229 1230 1231 1232 1233 FALLER: I wish I did. Honestly. It's a matter of I was there three years and I can honestly say, if these things happened I don't know where they would have happened. I never saw anything that concerned me with Rod and interactions with any students. He dealt with a lot of students; probably my parent liaison that carried most of the duties, and worked the hardest. I think that shows beyond mentoring, coaching, I've never seen him do anything inappropriate. 1234 1235 1236 INVESTIGATOR: Have you had an opportunity to speak Bob Gagnon about this situation; about the Frazier investigation? 1237 1238 FALLER: Prior to all this going down; as far as the District re-opening. I haven't spoken to Bob in weeks. 1239 1240 1241 INVESTIGATOR: Prior to January 9th, because that's when it was re-opened. You haven't spoken to him after January 9th? 1242 FALLER: Not about this. Just in passing maybe. 1243 1244 INVESTIGATOR: Do you live in his neighborhood? 1245 FALLER: It's the same neighborhood, but it's probably a mile or so. 1246 1247 1248 INVESTIGATOR: Was there an incident in his yard where you and him went face to face and had a little bit of static with regards to this investigation? 1249 FALLER: Me and Bob? No, never. 1250 1251 Thank you for coming in and if I have any questions, I'll call you. Page 43 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1252 1253 1254 Robert Gagnon: 1255 1256 Troy Pumphrey, Investigator w/ Robert Gagnon, Assistant Superintendent and Richard Reinhart, Attorney September 5, 2013 1257 1258 INVESTIGATOR: Mr. Reinhart, before we get started would you like to make a statement. 1259 1260 REINHART: Yeah. I believe basically that you're telling us to be here under School board policy and state law and for him to answer questions put to him in the investigation? Is that correct? 1261 1262 INVESTIGATOR: That's right. 1263 1264 1265 1266 1267 REINHART: So with understanding I would assume that under state law he has immunity from any of these statements being used against him in a criminal investigation. With that understanding we're here but at the same time hopefully the investigation and questions are specific, fact specific and also relevant to that matters that are in the public arena right now as far as what's going on with my client and others. 1268 1269 INVESTIGATOR: Bob, can you state your name for the record please? 1270 GAGNON: Robert Gagnon, G A G N O N 1271 1272 INVESTIGATOR: Mr. Gagnon how long have you been in the school District of Manatee? 1273 GAGNON: 12 years. 1274 1275 1276 INVESTIGATOR: Prior to becoming the Assistant Superintendent of Teaching and Learning Division, where were you employed? 1277 GAGNON: Principal at Manatee High School. 1278 Page 44 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 1279 INVESTIGATOR: How long were you principal at Manatee High School? 1280 Case No. 12-2033-OP GAGNON: 2007 to December 2011. 1281 1282 1283 1284 1285 INVESTIGATOR: The reason why I've called you here is obviously I'm working on an investigation which was, which began on or about November 14, 2012, was an alleged allegation of inappropriate contact with one of the teachers, one of the liaison's there, was Rod Frazier. Are you familiar with that? 1286 GAGNON: Yes. 1287 1288 INVESTIGATOR: On or about November 14, 2012, where were you employed? 1289 GAGNON: 2012? I was the Assistant Superintendent. 1290 1291 1292 INVESTIGATOR: While you were at Manatee High School, did you have an occasion to receive allegations from any teachers or other schools employees with regard to Rod Frazier? 1293 GAGNON: In relation to? 1294 1295 INVESTIGATOR: In relations to, inappropriate contact, inappropriate language, specific to female students or female teachers? 1296 1297 1298 1299 1300 1301 1302 1303 GAGNON: I haven't heard anything from any teachers. I did receive a complaint from a teacher stating that Mr. Frazier was on a golf cart with a student. Of course there are several thousands in the court yard and it's under surveillance. When I heard that, she just said, "hey, it doesn't look right". I said ok, I'll go out and see what it looks like. When I went out there I did Mr. Frazier with a female student, I never got the name of the student or who the student was. But I also saw Mr. Gulash with a female student. I saw Ms. Kitchie with a male student. So, I did bring Mr. Frazier in, talked to him and said I don't want you in the golf cart sitting with a female. And, his response to me was, well did you see anybody else Mr. Gagnon? 1304 1305 1306 1307 And I said, yes Mr. Frazier, I did. He goes, why you only talking to me, and he pointed to his skin being African-American male and why it is only me, why would this teacher single me out when there is multiple events happening? I said, you know what, you're correct. There's nothing inappropriate going on. Obviously we have a lot of kids sitting in golf carts and at that point I Page 45 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 1308 1309 Case No. 12-2033-OP directed all people to not sit in golf carts with female students unless there was a legitimate purpose to ride them to a particular place. 1310 1311 INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember the teacher's name that told you about that incident? 1312 1313 GAGNON: I'm guessing, I think it was Ms. Aragon, but I don't know she was in my office a lot. I'm thinking it was Ms. Aragon. 1314 1315 1316 1317 1318 INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember a conversation with Ms. Aragon where she reported to you that during class, Rod Frazier called her classroom, talked with a female student, asked the female student if she was on her menstrual cycle and needed a tampax? Do you remember that? 1319 1320 1321 1322 GAGNON: I do remember that now. I remember that now, but I did not remember quite a while ago because it was just a very general thing. But I do remember that situation because it made me uncomfortable and I had one of my assistant principals look into the situation and I can give you the details of what exactly came from that. 1323 1324 1325 1326 1327 1328 1329 INVESTIGATOR: Let me take you forward a bit to November 14, 2012. November 12, 2012 would have been on or about the date that Principal Sauer gave, passed a letter to Scott Martin, regarding allegations of inappropriate activities between Rod Frazier and some students. Prior to Martin sending Debra Horne to Manatee High School, and that would have been November 15th. Did you have conversation with Scott Martin regarding the letter that he received from Sauer? 1330 1331 GAGNON: When you say, between November 14th and November 15th, during that I guess that 24 hour period? 1332 1333 1334 INVESTIGATOR: The letter came on or about November 14th. My question to you is did you have a conversation with Scott Martin regarding the letter? 1335 1336 GAGNON: Scott mentioned it in passing that he received a letter. An anonymous letter or something like that. Page 46 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1337 1338 INVESTIGATOR: What was suggested in the conversation? 1339 1340 GAGNON: Just the conversation, it was something regarding allegations surrounding Rod Frazier and then opening up an investigation. 1341 1342 INVESTIGATOR: Did Martin ask you any questions regarding the allegations? 1343 1344 1345 1346 1347 1348 1349 1350 1351 1352 1353 1354 GAGNON: No. My first words to Martin were, if he's done this, bury him under the school. If these allegations are correct, because nobody's gonna hurt one of my kids. Not at my school. So those were my first words to him. When I addressed that with him and then we talked briefly, he said do you know anything about it? I said who's it from? You got to remember, he never showed me the letter. I never seen what the allegations are so how can I deny them or prove them or say anything about, because he never showed me the letter and I've never seen the letter. But he told me who they were from and what I did say if these people have attacked and made statement about Mr. Frazier in the past. So my point was, first and utmost. We need to do, we need to get out and find out if he did it. If he did it, we need to go and get the guy, period. But if he didn't, these people have come after him before, and he could potentially be an innocent person. But I expect a thorough and full investigation from an independent agency that has nothing to do with me or be within my line of authority, period. 1355 1356 INVESTIGATOR: And you stated this to Scott Martin? 1357 GAGNON: Yes. 1358 1359 1360 1361 INVESTIGATOR: Did you also state to Scott Martin that the allegations as he stated to you were rumor or based on rumor or innuendo and that these rumors had surfaced, previously surfaced about Frazier in the past? 1362 1363 1364 1365 GAGNON: He never stated what the allegations were and he never showed me the letter. What I said is the people that are involved in this, because of what they've done, have started the rumors. But it's got to be investigated. Every rumor has to be investigated. And I would anticipate an Attorney and an OPS investigator to go out and do a thorough job. Page 47 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1366 1367 1368 1369 INVESTIGATOR: During that conversation did you inform Scott Martin that they only incident that you were aware of was an incident where Frazier was riding in golf carts with female students. 1370 1371 GAGNON: At that time the only things that I could think of specifically that I could recall that started a rumor was that. 1372 1373 1374 1375 INVESTIGATOR: Now that we're at this point here in September, can you think of any other incidents that were reported to you as the Principal of Manatee High School where that involved Rod Frazier and inappropriate interactions with students, female students or teachers? 1376 1377 1378 1379 1380 1381 1382 1383 1384 1385 1386 1387 1388 1389 GAGNON: No, no inappropriate interactions. I've never been reported there was an inappropriate interaction. You mentioned that menstrual cycle and I had seen that. That is a physical logical issue. That is not sexual. I had Mr. Kane look into it and he brought back what the story was. The girl was refusing to go to class and this is what Mr. Kane's statement was. The girl was refusing to go class because she apparently was having menstrual issues. Mr. Kane said you need to get to class. I'm sorry, Mr. Frazier said you need to get to class; you need to get to class. She looked at Mr. Frazier, now this is what Mr. Frazier is telling Mr. Kane and I'm remembering the best I can. Mr. Frazier said get to class, she said no, she's going to write me up, she's gonna get thrown out for the tenth time, which means she'd get kicked out of school. Frazier claims he told her to 'go to class now, your job is to be in school and I will go to the clinic for you.' It's nothing sexual it's nothing inappropriate, it's illogical. (Inaudible) Ok. Is it stupid; yeah. Kane explained that to me, 'he went to the girl here ya go, get back in class and stay in school.' To me, it's menstruation. I don't see how that can be referred to as sexual, any way shape or form. 1390 1391 INVESTIGATOR: Can you tell me when Mr. Kane told you this? 1392 1393 1394 GAGNON: This was right after the incident because when it came into me, you've got to remember we're dealing with hundreds of things every single day. And it turns out that this woman, completely started a rumor about him when he was providing a student first aide. 1395 1396 [Mr. Reinhart interjected and told Mr. Gagnon, that he was getting off on a tangent and asked what the question was again.] Page 48 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 1397 1398 Case No. 12-2033-OP I think it was immediately the same day that Aragon came in, ya know. I'm pretty sure it was the same day she came in and I said ok well that issues resolved. 1399 1400 1401 INVESTIGATOR: Now I'm unclear. Was it Aragon that reported the incident directly to you or was the incident reported to you through Kane? 1402 1403 GAGNON: I believe, the best I can recall, it was through Ms. Aragon. The best I can recall was through Ms. Aragon. 1404 1405 1406 INVESTIGATOR: And at what point did you feel that you need to speak to Mr. Kane about the incident? 1407 GAGNON: I think I talked to him that same day. 1408 1409 INVESTIGATOR: What were those circumstances? Why? 1410 1411 1412 1413 1414 1415 1416 1417 GAGNON: Well it made me uncomfortable with what she said, ya know. Like everyone else is assuming, period this is something bad, I kind of thought the same thing. I said what's going on with this. Why would somebody ask about that? And then I heard the details of the story which is as simple as a girl didn't who didn't have hygiene product, and who was looking for someone to help her. The teacher was the problem in the incident who was unwilling to allow the girl to go to the clinic. So we had another staff member help the student in this situation. After hearing it, after listening to it, there was nothing sexual or inappropriate about it in anyway shape or form. 1418 1419 1420 1421 1422 1423 1424 INVESTIGATOR: On or about November 14th date, where you and Martin had a conversation, and I'm saying this to you that it's my belief that this was prior to Martin sending Debra Horne out to Manatee to start the investigation. But during that conversation on or about the 14th, did you talk to Martin regarding the importance of getting out to Manatee High School as soon as possible and that there would be some implications if they did not do so, there would be some implications on the Friday night football game? Page 49 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1425 1426 1427 1428 1429 1430 GAGNON: No, absolutely not. My statement was clear again. It was in passing, because I didn't see the note and I've been doing this for 25 years. I started the school. I started the school for abandoned and neglected children. He's reading the note and the investigators reading the note. They know the details. They're crossing me in passing and giving me generic information. My first words were, if he went out and did it, bury him under the school, but I don't see that anywhere in anyone's investigation. 1431 1432 1433 1434 [Mr. Reinhart interjected and said, 'you're not here to talk about their investigation, just answer the questions. Everyone understands you're reading the paper and everything else and you're the subject of this, that you're upset, and that they are questioning your integrity. But all Mr. Pumphrey needs to do right now is get your side, just the facts. ] 1435 1436 1437 1438 1439 1440 I apologize. So I told him bury him under the school. And then we talked about who is it about, who is the subjects. I said the subjects have been involved with rumors of Rod before. You need to get out there now because if the guys innocent, his presence will be missed. Nothing to do with football. He's a fifth string Assistant Football Coach, but innocence is innocence and if he's guilty why would we delay an investigation into the most horrific acts that anybody could do? It was to fool around with a child. Get out there now. 1441 1442 1443 1444 1445 INVESTIGATOR: Along those lines, I originally asked if you had a conversation with Martin regarding getting out to Manatee as soon as possible and some implications for a football game on a Friday night and I need you to clarify your response. Did you or did you not have that conversation with Martin? 1446 GAGNON: Yeah, I said get out there and bury him under the school. 1447 1448 1449 1450 1451 INVESTIGATOR: Did you talk to Martin specifically about getting out right away because there was a football game on Friday night and that rumors or him not being there would spread like wildflower and it would put the employee at an even worse position as far as the rumors go? Did you have that conversation with Martin? 1452 1453 1454 1455 GAGNON: If he wasn't there his presence was going to be missed, but the conversation, the crux of the conversation was the beginning of the conversation which was, these are our kids, we need to get out there and investigate right now. And if he did it, bury him under the school and hold him accountable. The rest was the second piece. Why are we gonna delay Page 50 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1456 1457 investigation into somebody. The public's not going to expect us to do that. They want us to get out there right now. 1458 INVESTIGATOR: The Investigation began on the 15th, and that game was a day or two (2) later. 1459 1460 GAGNON: And I wasn't at the school, I wasn't the Principal at the school. I wasn't a coach. I have nothing to do with it at that point. I'm the Assistant Superintendent. 1461 1462 1463 1464 INVESTIGATOR: So why was that so important for you then if you were not at the school, you were not the coach, you were not the principal. Why was it important for you to tell Martin, he needed to get out there immediately or as soon as possible and because there could be some implications with Frazier not being out on the football field? 1465 1466 1467 1468 1469 1470 GAGNON: You're assuming that last piece [Mr. Reinhart and Gagnon repeated "You're assuming that last piece"] and, it's being blown out of proportion. The first piece that nobody is stating because it doesn't fit, was bury him under the school. Bury him under the school, bury him under the school, bury, I have no affiliation with him, that team, whether the win or lose, I could care less. 'Bury him under the school,' were my first words. Now I know Mr. Martin said that because that's a fact. 1471 1472 INVESTIGATOR: You know he said what, I'm sorry? 1473 1474 GAGNON: I'm sure that he's told the truth and he's said my first words to him go out there and bury that guy under the school. 1475 INVESTIGATOR: Where would that come from, how would you know? 1476 GAGNON: My words. 1477 1478 INVESTIGATOR: How would you know then? 1479 GAGNON: Well unless. 1480 1481 1482 INVESTIGATOR: You just made a statement to me that you knew for a fact that Scott Martin made the statements that bury this guy if he did something wrong, bury him under the bus. 1483 GAGNON: It's the truth. Page 51 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1484 1485 INVESTIGATOR: How do you know that Scott Martin made that statement? 1486 1487 1488 GAGNON: He could, he might not be making the statement you're reading me I guess [Reinhart spoke up and said the question was do you know he's assuming he did this?] I'm assuming because he's an honest guy and he's a guy with integrity. I can't imagine he would. 1489 1490 INVESTIGATOR: Have you spoken with Scott Martin since this investigation began? 1491 GAGNON: Yeah, off and on different things. 1492 1493 INVESTIGATOR: Have you spoken to Scott Martin between July 23rd and today's date? 1494 GAGNON: What's the 23rd, is that the gag order? 1495 1496 1497 INVESTIGATOR: No, that's the date I came into this investigation. I started work on July 23rd. Have you spoken to Scott Martin, between? 1498 GAGNON: I don't believe so. 1499 1500 1501 INVESTIGATOR: Have you spoken to Scott Martin between the time you received your Paid Administrative Leave? 1502 GAGNON: Absolutely not. 1503 INVESTIGATOR: August 5th? 1504 GAGNON: Absolutely not. 1505 1506 1507 INVESTIGATOR: I'm going to ask you specifically because we have, there's a misunderstanding here. You're saying the first part of the statement, the second part of your statement is Page 52 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1508 1509 1510 1511 1512 something that I assumed so I'm going to ask you specifically. Scott Martin makes a statement that you expressed to him that if you didn't get out to Manatee High School right away because Frazier was going to be coaching football on Friday night and the rumors of him not being there would spread like wildfire and it would put the employee in an even worse position as far as the rumors go. That's what Martin says. 1513 GAGNON: [Reinhart said: Are you telling me that's true or are you just using this as?] 1514 1515 1516 1517 INVESTIGATOR: First of all I'm not telling you anything. I'm talking to him, ok? You're here as his attorney, but I need to be able to conduct this investigation. If I can't, then I'll conclude this interview. 1518 1519 GAGNON: [Reinhart said: No, you will not conclude it. Because I'm not being obstructive to you; I want you to complete it. We want to cooperate.] 1520 1521 INVESTIGATOR: If that's the case, then you need to give me an opportunity. 1522 1523 1524 1525 1526 1527 1528 1529 GAGNON: [Reinhart said: You're talking over me though Mr. Pumphrey. Right now I just want to say something while the records going that I'm not meaning to butt in and stuff. One thing that I wanted and I asked my client to clarify with you and maybe he will ask me the question, is there's been so much stuff reported in the press and everything. We don't know exactly what anyone's told anybody in the investigation because we're not privy to the investigation. So, if you're saying to Mr. Gagnon, this is something Mr. Martin told me, is he, the question is, is he to take that as truth from you, that this is in fact true? Mr. Martin said that to you in answering the question or is he not to assume anything? That was my point.] 1530 1531 1532 1533 INVESTIGATOR: My statement was very clear. My statement was if I said to you that Scott Martin made this statement is that statement true? That was the question? Do you want me to read it? 1534 GAGNON: Sure. 1535 Page 53 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1536 1537 1538 1539 1540 INVESTIGATOR: Gagnon also expressed to Martin that if he didn't get out to Manatee High School right away, because Frazier was going to be coaching football on Friday night, the rumors of him now being there would spread like wildfire and it would put the employee in an even worse position as far as the rumors go. Did you and Martin have that conversation to the best of your knowledge? 1541 1542 1543 1544 GAGNON: It wasn't specific like that. It began with; we need to get out there because if he did something we need to bury him under the school. It began that way and then we definitely, I definitely stated something related to these people, because they have come after him before and I said his presence will be missed. 1545 1546 INVESTIGATOR: His presence where? 1547 1548 1549 GAGNON: At the football game, absolutely. People are gonna see that he's not there. Does he need to be there; absolutely not. Do we need a coach; absolutely not. But the bottom line is and the first fact is why would I ever say anything but get out there and do it right now? 1550 1551 1552 1553 1554 INVESTIGATOR: I can't tell you what you may say, all I'm asking you is if you had that conversation with Martin and if that conversation had anything to do with getting the investigation going sooner than later. And, that there were some implications if Frazier was not out on the football field on Friday? 1555 1556 1557 GAGNON: It had nothing to do with football, absolutely not. It had to do with getting an investigation going on somebody that may be doing something inappropriately with our kids; getting it going. 1558 1559 1560 INVESTIGATOR: And were you aware, did you oversee the Office of Professional Standards here in Manatee County when you were Assistant Superintendent? 1561 GAGNON: Never. 1562 Page 54 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1563 1564 1565 INVESTIGATOR: And I'm going to sound like I'm repeating myself, but I'm gonna repeat myself, again. Did you or did you not have a conversation with Martin where you asked Martin to get Frazier back on the field for the playoff game? 1566 1567 1568 1569 1570 GAGNON: Absolutely not. Not that statement, no. I told him to bury him under the school. This was a conversation that happened in passing and both, not only did I not see the information which I'm a detail person, I'm a person of high integrity, I would need to see the note and what the allegations were. The only thing I knew were the people who made those allegations. And we can show, well we will show, what they've done in the past. 1571 1572 1573 1574 1575 INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember a conversation between you and the investigator at that time, Debbie Horne that took place in the lobby of this building where you made a statement to Debbie Horne that she needed to take care of the investigation pretty quickly. Do you remember a conversation in the lobby? 1576 1577 1578 1579 1580 GAGNON: That's a lie. I never had a conversation with Debbie Horne and was that the same day? I had a conversation with Martin and I didn't even find out what happened till three days later when the investigator talked to the assistant superintendent, who talked to the superintendent and I was not in that chain of command. And when they cleared him, I don't understand.... Inaudible. 1581 1582 [Reinhart said: Mr. Pumphrey just to clarify, are you talking about after this November 14, 2012 comes in?] 1583 1584 INVESTIGATOR: Yes. 1585 1586 [Reinhart said: do you understand that after November 14, 2012 he was asking you if you talked to Debbie Horne?] 1587 1588 GAGNON: After I talked to Scott and before he was cleared? Something like that, is that what you're trying to say? 1589 1590 1591 1592 INVESTIGATOR: I haven't said any of that. What I asked you was do you remember a conversation in the lobby of this building where you approached Debbie Horne and you said to Debbie Horne, something to the effect that she needed to take care of this pretty quickly? Page 55 of 181 1593 1594 1595 1596 1597 1598 1599 1600 1601 1602 1603 1504 1605 1606 1607 1608 1509 1510 1611 1612 1613 1614 1615 1616 1517 1618 1619 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12403370? GAGNON: No, I don't recall that whatsoever. Do you have any time when something like that would have occurred? [Reinhart said: He'sjust saying it would have happened right after the letter on November GAGNON: But I wasn't even notified of the letter until Scott walked by me. I wasn't even at Manatee high. [Reinhart said: That's what he's basically asking.] INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember a student by the name o_ GAGNON: No. INVESTIGATOR: Earlier in the interview you stated that you knew about the incident with Rod Frazier in golf carts but there were a lot of students that Sat in golf Carts with other administrators. Vou also stated you've now come to know of a situation where Frazier called a student in her classroom and asked her if she needed a tampax. Is that correct? GAGNON: Student asked Rod to do that and Rod complied with the Student. That's through Mr. Kane. INVESTIGATORI DO you know what if it was Mr. Frazier that contacted Mrs. AragL)n's mum to speak with the student? GAGNON: I don't know the detail. I believe it was which would definitely cause a massive conflict. Butl believe it was, I'm not a hundred percent (100%) sure. INVESTIGATOR: Are you sure that it was Ms. Aragon that came to you directly about that issue? GAGNON: Can't be a hundred percent (100%) but I'm thinking it was Ms. Aragon. I mean I can't say for sure, were talking about several years ago and one hundred and twenty (120) teachers at Manatee high. But I'm thinking it was Ms. Aragon. Page 56 of 181 1620 1621 1622 1623 1624 1625 1626 1627 1628 1629 1630 1631 1632 1633 1634 1635 1636 1637 1638 1639 1640 1641 1642 1643 1644 1645 1646 1647 1648 1649 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School case No. 12403370? INVESTIGATORZ Let me redirect YOU DECK t0 3 student bv the name YOU remember an incident that took place where --vas in in school suspension I guess Mr. Frazier was overseeing iss room and a young lady bythe name of - walked into the ISS room, had a conversation with Mr. Frazier. That conversation was in reference to whether Mr. Frazier was going to a lingerie party. 50 this would have been in February, valentines Day. GAGNON: What year? INVESTIGATOR: 2010. And Mr. Frazier commented something, and I'm not expecting youto know about that conversation, but that conversation between the student and Mr. Frazier resulted in Mr. Frazier making a statement that yes, he will be at the lingerie party. The student, --aiter hearing that asked if she could leave the room and go and speak with you. Frazier stated no. She ran out of the room. Vou and two (2) Resource Officers were coming around the corner and she had a conversation with you. Do you remember that? GAGNON: Nu. With the two police officers? INVESTIGATOR: One Resource Officer and the other was in training. But what she states is that after overhearing that conversation and Frazier refused her leaving the room, she ran out. Frazier got on the radio to call for help, you came around the corner and she told you or that story that she heard at that time. She stated to me that the Resource Officer then stated to her that she does not need to be spreading those kinds of rumors and that he would arrest her if she continued spreading rumors. GAGNON: Both Resource Officers heard this? They were both there and I was with them supposedly when this occurred? INVESTIGATOR: The scenario was she ran out of the room, Frazier called for help. Vou came running around the corner; she told you why she left the room. she told you what happened. Do you remember that conversation? GAGNON: N0. I'd remember something like that. There's a lot of stuff that you don't remember because it's not sexually or inappropriate related. You're in the golf cart; people are In gait Carts all the time. Menstruation is menstruation that, I'd remember that. Page 57 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1650 1651 1652 1653 1654 INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember a conversation with a math teacher by the name of Donna Coates? Ms. Coates states that she spoke with you and informed you about a conversation she overheard between two (2) students and Frazier with regards to showing white girls favoritism. Do you remember that conversation? 1655 1656 GAGNON: I know of it now because I saw a report. I did not obviously remember it then, previously, but I did read a statement recently that has that in there. 1657 1658 INVESTIGATOR: What was that statement read from? 1659 1660 1661 1662 1663 GAGNON: It was in the police report. I did read it. I still don't recall it; I recall it loosely because obviously to me if my first job is to protect kids and I find the first thing I do to the employee is like I've done with the clinic or anybody else. And I'd say if you're suspicious of this then you're going to call. Nothing ever rose to that level. I don't recall that conversation occurring. You know what, a preference to white students? 1664 1665 1666 INVESTIGATOR: White girls; Frazier liking white girls and showing them favoritism. You don't remember that conversation or you do remember that? 1667 1668 1669 1670 GAGNON: Once I read it, you know, do I remember the detail, when she did it, when she said it? I can't say. I can't say or recall the conversation. I mean, I know I knew nothing about; now when I start to read it, you're talking five (5) years, you're talking about fifteen hundred a day (1500). But Mrs. Coates is a pretty trust worthy person so. 1671 1672 INVESTIGATOR: So you remember the conversation or you don't remember it? 1673 1674 1675 GAGNON: I can't remember her saying anything that specific thing to me in my office. We've had a lot of conversations with Ms. Coates. I can't remember her saying anything to me that would have aroused me to bring any level of suspicion in any way. 1676 1677 Page 58 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1678 1679 1680 INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember telling Mrs. Coates after she informed you of what she heard, do you remember telling her something to the effect that you were aware of the allegations? 1681 GAGNON: That he likes white girls? 1682 1683 INVESTIGATOR: Likes white girls and shows them favoritism? Are you aware? 1684 1685 1686 GAGNON: No I couldn't say. I don't know it that's a spin -off of the golf cart thing because that's what the whole thing went crazy when I directed the employee not to do it; which was appropriate to do that. 1687 1688 1689 INVESTIGATOR: When you were at Manatee High School as the principal who were your assistant principals? 1690 GAGNON: There's a whole bunch. Do you want me to go from 2007 all the way? 1691 1692 INVESTIGATOR: Yes of what you can remember. 1693 1694 1695 1696 GAGNON: Linda Nesselhauf; who is the current principal of Lakewood Ranch, And McDonald, Matt Kane, Laurie Kitchie, Gregg Faller, Tazz Peters, Gary Theiler, on the first one Gary was there three years and coaching football, Gary Theiler. Robin Thompson was in an administrative role and as a curriculum coordinator. How many did I give you so far? 1697 1698 INVESTIGATOR: Eight (8). 1699 GAGNON: I'm thinking that's all of them. 1700 1701 1702 INVESTIGATOR: Let's talk about Mr. Kane for a second here. Did you hire Mr. Kane or was he at Manatee High prior to you getting there? Page 59 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1703 1704 1705 GAGNON: Slightly complicated. The District; there were two applicants. I thought Mr. Kane was a stronger applicant. The District made me hire two (2), so technically yes. We ended up with two (2) A.P's that year. 1706 INVESTIGATOR: What was your relationship with Mr. Kane prior to hiring him? 1707 1708 GAGNON: I worked with him at Lakewood Ranch High School; but nothing other than professional. 1709 1710 INVESTIGATOR: How long had Mr. Kane been there prior to you leaving? 1711 1712 1713 GAGNON: I think I was at Manatee for, maybe he was there my first year. So he must have been at Lakewood; I went to Palmetto in '06 went to Manatee in '07. He came to Manatee in '07 too. He came at the same time. 1714 1715 INVESTIGATOR: Was Mr. Kane married or single when he got there? 1716 GAGNON: Single. 1717 1718 1719 INVESTIGATOR: Did you know of a relationship between Mr. Kane and another employee at Manatee High School while you were there? 1720 GAGNON: No I did not until after the fact. 1721 1722 INVESTIGATOR: After what fact? 1723 INVESTIGATOR: After the fact that he told me. 1724 1725 INVESTIGATOR: What point did he tell you? 1726 GAGNON: When his wife went out on leave. 1727 Page 60 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 1728 INVESTIGATOR: Was she his wife when she went out on leave? 1729 Case No. 12-2033-OP GAGNON: No. 1730 1731 INVESTIGATOR: And why did she go on leave, if you know? 1732 1733 GAGNON: I'm assuming that they thought it was best for the family. Whatever it might be for the family (inaudible). 1734 1735 INVESTIGATOR: What's that mean? 1736 1737 GAGNON: They just got married; she's got two (2) little kids. I don't know what that means. They must have thought it was the best for them. 1738 1739 1740 INVESTIGATOR: I thought you just said she wasn't, they weren't married when she went out on leave? 1741 1742 GAGNON: They weren't married. But they were going to get married. They were serious and she had two (2) little kids. 1743 1744 INVESTIGATOR: She had two kids (2)? 1745 GAGNON: From somebody else. 1746 1747 1748 1749 1750 INVESTIGATOR: Was she placed on leave or she requested a leave of absence? GAGNON: Not sure; I think I was leaving at that particular time. 1751 1752 INVESTIGATOR: But if you were still there as the principal then you would have had to approve that or no? 1753 1754 GAGNON: would I have placed her on leave pending if he directly supervised her and she could gain any type of you know. I'd have to look at the policies in place and procedures that were in Page 61 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 1755 1756 1757 1758 1759 1760 1761 Case No. 12-2033-OP place at that time. Probably would have brought it to OPS and have them do an investigation to see if there's any violation of what's going on and brought it to their attention. I don't know; if he didn't directly supervise her, yeah. I mean we have people who in our schools everywhere who, we have an AP who supervises the math department and there's another teacher that's in the English department (inaudible). So, they made rumors that that's not direct supervision, so they're allowed to work together. But that wouldn't have been my decision. It would have been something I would have sent down here. 1762 1763 1764 1765 1766 1767 INVESTIGATOR: Let me repeat my question. My question to you is, whether you knew he had relationship as an administrator with this teacher, with someone that worked at the school? And your statement, and correct me if I'm wrong, your statement was that you did not know until he told you and that he told you this at some point, prior to her taking a leave of absence. Is that what you said? 1768 1769 1770 GAGNON: I don't know if it was prior or when it was. I know it might have been summer time I think it might have been the end where she was no longer employed. I couldn't tell you the date. I just know he told me and was like holy crap. I didn't know anything about it. 1771 1772 INVESTIGATOR: Why did she go on a leave of absence? 1773 GAGNON: You'd have to ask her. 1774 1775 INVESTIGATOR: If you know, why did she go on a leave of absence? 1776 GAGNON: You'd have to ask that family that. 1777 [Reinhart said: He just asked you, if you know.] 1778 GAGNON: If I know? I don't know. There are a million reasons. 1779 1780 1781 INVESTIGATOR: Would you have signed the paperwork approving her to take leave as the principal of Manatee High School? Page 62 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 1782 1783 1784 Case No. 12-2033-OP GAGNON: I don't know. It never came across my desk and I never would have been put in that position. I would speculate no. I would definitely go to my boss and let them know what the situation was. That was something that should have been run up the chain. 1785 1786 INVESTIGATOR: I'm not understanding. What should have been run up the chain? 1787 1788 GAGNON: IF that person was allowed to take a leave based on the situation. I would have went to my boss like I always do. 1789 1790 INVESTIGATOR: What situation? 1791 GAGNON: If she went to request a leave. 1792 1793 INVESTIGATOR: Are you saying you were not the principal when she requested leave? 1794 1795 1796 1797 GAGNON: I don't believe so. That was in the summer time I was heading this way. I know when I returned she was never there. Once I found out, once I was told, she was never back at Manatee High School. How it happened, I don't know. I'm sure personnel have records of all HR who signed it. 1798 1799 1800 INVESTIGATOR: At some point in time you came to know that there had been a relationship between Mr. Kane and his current wife, prior to them marrying. Is that right? 1801 GAGNON: I did know; yeah. 1802 1803 1804 INVESTIGATOR: And the question is did you know that before or after you left Manatee High School? 1805 GAGNON: I don't know the dates. I couldn't tell you the dates he told me that. Page 63 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 1806 INVESTIGATOR: Do you have a personal relationship with Mr. Kane? 1807 Case No. 12-2033-OP GAGNON: Yeah, we've hung out. 1808 1809 INVESTIGATOR: Were you hanging out back then; back in 2010, 2011, 2012? 1810 GAGNON: Normal, interpersonal office relationships, nothing more than that. 1811 1812 INVESTIGATOR: You never hung out after work? 1813 GAGNON: Yeah, once in a while. Like I said, normal. 1814 1815 INVESTIGATOR: He come to your house? 1816 GAGNON: He has been. 1817 1818 INVESTIGATOR: Did he come to your house prior to being married? 1819 GAGNON: I would imagine, yeah. 1820 1821 Is there anything else you'd like to say before we conclude the interview? 1822 1823 [Reinhart said: can I have a minute with him Mr. Pumphrey? I just want to ask him something before we cut.] 1824 INVESTIGATOR: Well 1825 1826 [Reinhart said: to see if he wants to add anything to it. I want to talk to him about something I have in my mind to see if he wants to clarify it] 1827 1828 INVESTIGATOR: Well, I'll keep the recorder going because when I turn off this tape, then the interview is going to be over. 1829 1830 GAGNON: [Reinhart said: Ok. Well as his lawyer I have a right to talk to him before, you just asked him, was there anything else to add?] Page 64 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 1831 1832 INVESTIGATOR: currently over. Case No. 12-2033-OP Well at this point I'm going to retract that statement. This interview is Page 65 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1833 1834 Debra Horne: August 5, 2013 - 2:15PM 1835 1836 Troy Pumphrey, INVESTIGATOR: - Debra Horne, Asst. Principal (Prine Elementary) and Peter Lombardo, Attorney for Debra Horne 1837 1838 INVESTIGATOR: Please state your full name for the record. 1839 HORNE: Debra Ann Horne. 1840 1841 INVESTIGATOR: And Mrs. Horne, where do you work? 1842 1843 HORNE: I work for the Manatee County School District. I'm an assistant principal at Prine Elementary school. 1844 1845 INVESTIGATOR: How long have you been with the school District? 1846 HORNE: I've been with the school District since nineteen ninety nine (1999). 1847 1848 INVESTIGATOR: And prior to working at Prine Elementary, where were you employed? 1849 HORNE: I was employed for eight (8) years in the Office of Professional Standards as a specialist. 1850 1851 1852 1853 INVESTIGATOR: Let me refer you to an investigation that you conducted in November 15th (fifteenth) or so. The subject of the investigation in part was a Rod Frazier. Are you familiar with that? 1854 HORNE: I am aware of that investigation, yes sir. 1855 1856 1857 1858 INVESTIGATOR: I read something where I believe it was on the November 14th (fourteenth) or 15th (fifteenth); you made a statement the Bradenton Police Department that you were asked by someone in your office to put all of your investigations on hold and the focus on the Rod Frazier investigation. Remember that? Page 66 of 181 1859 1860 1861 1862 1863 1864 1865 1866 1867 1868 1869 1870 1871 1872 1873 1874 1875 1876 1877 1878 1879 1880 1881 1882 1883 1884 1885 1886 1887 1888 1889 1890 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School case No. ]2--1033r0P HORN E: To clarify, I didn't speak to the Bradenton Police Department until February 2013. In November on or about the 14"' a letter was received in regards to some concerns about Frazier. My supervisor, Scott Martin at the time was the Assistant Superintendent, requested that I open an investigation to look into the concerns. To the best of my recollection, because we are going back many, many months, Mr.. Martin asked me what I was working on. told him at that time, on that day, I was going to Jesse P. Miller to work on a case involving a 2 He asked me how long it would take; I said I could probably wrap it up and begin the investigation at Manatee High the following day on the Again, that's to the best of my recollection. So, he asked me to please, if it was possible and there weren't other things that were of egregious nature, to get over to Manatee High as soon as I could. INVESTIGATOR: I would like to play for you that recording of your interview. Part or your recording with the Bradenton Police Department where you respond to one of the Detectives questions specifically regarding asked to stop your other investigations. Is that ok? HORN E: Sure. INVESTIGATOR: [At this time a recording was played.] Horne listened to the recording and the INVESTIGATOR: asked her, "Does that refresh your memory?" HORN E: Yes. INVESTIGATOR: And who again gave you the directive to place all or your investigations on hold in order to work on Rod Frazier allegations? HORN E: I want to clarify that when I spoke to the Bradenton Police Department, when they came in February, that I told that everything that lwas saying to them was to the best of my recollection, because I had none of my notes with me. As I don't today. And again, to the best of my recollection, I take my directives from Scott Martin. It is not unusual for my supenrisor to ask me to move forward on a case if someone's being placed on Paid Administrative Leave (PAL) if the other cases that I'm working on involve people that are still at work. So the case that I was working on, that comes to my mind, and usually have 20-40 open at one time, but I was concentrating on a case at Jesse P. Miller. The teacher was at work, we had not sent her home on PAL and it was a case involving a case of possible forgery of ESE paperwork. They were, ii I use the word crucial that I move forward, was because this gentleman was placed on PAL where the other employee was still at work. INVESTIGATOR: If you have notes and you want to end this interview until such time that you have those in front of you, I'm more than willing to do that. Page 67 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1891 1892 HORNE: You have my notes. My notes are in the OPS file. I don't keep separate personal notes there. There are notes that would be in the OPS file. 1893 INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember what date the investigation was actually opened? 1894 1895 1896 1897 1898 1899 1900 HORNE: To the best of my recollection sir, the letter in question that caused the investigation to ensue was received in the District approximately November the 14th. The morning I believe of November the 15th, and again this to the best of my recollection, Frazier was placed on PAL and the conversation that I had with Mr. Pauley, Mr. Sauer and Mr. Martin took place on the 14th where they told me they needed me to look at this as soon as possible. I told them the morning of the 15th I would be at miller, they said continue that and then get over to manatee high, when you're done on the 15th. Those are the dates that I'm remembering. 1901 1902 1903 INVESTIGATOR: So the investigation was brought to your attention on November 14th and 15th and November 15th is when you actually began the investigation? 1904 HORNE: To the best of my recollection. 1905 1906 INVESTIGATOR: And do you know what date Mr. Frazier was placed on Pal? 1907 1908 1909 1910 HORNE: To the best of my recollection, late in the afternoon, November 14th. The PAL letter was sent over to Don Sauer, the principal at Manatee High and he delivered it to Mr. Frazier either that late afternoon or the morning of the 15th. That's all going based on memory. Not based upon my file. 1911 1912 INVESTIGATOR: Do you have any idea when Frazier was taken off the PAL? 1913 1914 1915 1916 1917 1918 HORNE: I do know that he was sent back to work, either the 16th or the 17th. I was not part of the decision making process to return him to work. The Pal letter did come through my office as all other pal letters did. Either Mr. Martin or Mr. Martins assistant would notify myself or my assistant that such and such employee needs to be sent back to work, please produce the letter, get it signed be the superintendent, get it over. In this case I believe it was an email that returned him back to work. 1919 Page 68 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1920 INVESTIGATOR: Who makes the decisions to place on pal and off of pal and back to work? 1921 HORNE: The superintendent. 1922 1923 INVESTIGATOR: Who was the superintendent at that time? 1924 HORNE: David Gayler. 1925 1926 INVESTIGATOR: Was Mr. Gayler the person that placed Rod Frazier back to work? 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 HORNE: I don't know who placed him back to work. I know who put him on pal, I recall the pal being signed by Gayler. As far as who made the decision to send him back to work, I was not part of that process. All I know is somehow and I don't recall how, our office was notified. It could have been that it was Mr. Martin's asst., called my assistant, and said let them know he's going back to work or it could have been Mr. Martin telling me passing me in the hallway. I don't have recollection. Those notes might possibly be in my OPS file, but again I'm not privy to that. 1934 1935 1936 INVESTIGATOR: That decision to place Rod Frazier back to work would have been a result of the report submitted to, in this case, Scott Martin. 1937 1938 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 HORNE: No sir. The report in fact, I can see that you have the report upside down with the draft stamp; I'll have to back up for you and get you up to speed on that. On I believe, November 15th I interviewed 6 or 7 employees at manatee high. Then I interviewed Frazier. After the interviews at the round table, or it could have been rectangular I'm not a hundred percent sure, in Don Sauer's office, the principal of manatee high, we called Mr. Martin on speaker phone. Present at that meeting was Don Sauer, principal, Matt Kane, Assistant principal, Greg Faller, Assistant principal, maybe another individual or two, I don't recall and myself. The purpose of the call was to bring Mr. Martin and the gentlemen at the table up to speed and to ask them what next steps we needed to take. 1946 1947 INVESTIGATOR: Who was the other gentleman at the table? Page 69 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 1948 1949 Case No. 12-2033-OP HORNE: Don Sauer. Principal, Matt Kane, assistant principal, Greg Faller, assistant principal, there may have been one or two others. Those are the people that come to mind. 1950 1951 1952 INVESTIGATOR: You were asked to go out to Manatee High School to conduct a preliminary investigation and report that back to Scott Martin? 1953 HORNE: Right. 1954 1955 INVESTIGATOR: And is that what you did? 1956 1957 1958 1959 1960 1961 1962 1963 HORNE: I did. I called Scott. I said Scott I have the gentlemen here. This is what I'm being told by the 6 or 7 individuals that I have interviewed. Nothing they are sharing with me occurred this school year. Nothing they are sharing with me is causing me grave concern. They have told me anything that they were concerned about they have reported to administration. I have administration sitting here, what would you like my next steps to be? And Mr. Martin said, I'd like you to come back to the office and we'll discuss it. At the table I said, gentlemen, have you all involved the SRO's here at manatee high. And the response was no. Scott said come back to the office. 1964 1965 INVESTIGATOR: Why would you ask them if he involved the SRO's? 1966 1967 HORNE: It's a standard question I ask. If you have SRO's on campus and you have concerns with employees. It's a standard question I ask. 1968 1969 INVESTIGATOR: And the school responded; they did not. 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 1976 HORNE: They did not. And Mr. Martin said, deb, pack up your stuff and come back. Come to my office and we'll chat. And so I did. Went to Mr. Martins office, he was on the 5th floor at the time, and I was on the 2nd. I reviewed with him the information that I had obtained during the 6 or 7 interviews and I asked him if he would like me to go back to the school on the following day and randomly select some students and talk with the students to see if I could ascertain some additional information. And Mr. Martin's response was no that would only serve to stir the pot. And I said ok. Page 70 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 1977 1978 INVESTIGATOR: How many investigations do you think you've conducted? 1979 HORNE: I was in the department for 8 years and roughly 125 a year. 1980 1981 1982 1983 INVESTIGATOR: In 8 hundred cases, how many cases have you investigated where you were asked to go in and do preliminary investigation in order to make a determination on what actions the superintendent needs to make? 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 HORNE: If I'm understanding your question correctly, whenever an employee was placed on pal I was asked, it was standard protocol to move quickly, to do preliminary to determine whether or not there is any credence to the allegation whether the employee needs to remain away from student contact or whether or not the employee can be returned and the investigation would either conclude or ensue while the employee is returned. That was a standard occurrence. 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 INVESTIGATOR: The fact that Mr. Martin asked you to come out to Manatee High School and obtain preliminary information; what was your understanding of the reasons why he needed you to conduct a preliminary investigation over going out to Manatee High School and conducting a full complete and thorough investigation? 1995 HORNE: I'm not sure where the preliminary's coming from? 1996 1997 INVESTIGATOR: That's what you said; those are your words not mine. 1998 HORNE: I said preliminary. We received .... 1999 2000 INVESTIGATOR: Let me ask you this and this will clear it up. You received a directive from Scott Martin. Is that true? 2001 HORNE: I did. Page 71 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 2002 2003 INVESTIGATOR: And the directive was that there were allegations involving one of the employees at manatee by the name of Rod Frazier. Is that true? 2004 HORNE: Correct. 2005 2006 2007 INVESTIGATOR: And as a result of that Mr. Martin asked that you go out to Manatee High School and conduct an investigation. Is that true? 2008 HORNE: That's true. 2009 2010 2011 INVESTIGATOR: What was your understanding? Was your understanding that you're going out to conduct a complete full thorough investigation or was your understanding that you were going out to Manatee High School for some lesser reasons? 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 HORNE: Complete and full. The original letter that we received that caused, was the impetus for opening the investigation was a letter received by a gentlemen named Rinder, who put down hearsay. He had a two page, maybe three page list of hearsay. Nothing on there was something that he observed for himself. My recollection was Scott wanted me to go out, speak with Rinder to find out where he was hearing this from because his letter did not have teacher names in it nor did it have student names. So that may be why I was using the word preliminary as in to determine what did that letter mean. Then once I got those names from Mr. Rinder I called each of those individual teachers. 2020 2021 2022 INVESTIGATOR: Based on your interview with each of those teachers, you then made a recommendation to Scott Martin, your supervisor? 2023 HORNE: No I did not make a recommendation to him. 2024 2025 INVESTIGATOR: What happened after you got the names of the 4 or 5 teachers? I believe you said that you interviewed those teachers. 2026 HORNE: I did. There were six of them. Page 72 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 2027 2028 INVESTIGATOR: And prior to leaving the school you sat in the room with the principal and the assistant principals and you contacted Scott Martin by phone. 2029 HORNE: Correct, to give him an update. 2030 2031 INVESTIGATOR: What were you updating him on? 2032 2033 HORNE: On the information obtained based upon Rinder's letter and the 6 individuals I interviewed. 2034 2035 INVESTIGATOR: What did Mr. Martin do with that information? 2036 2037 HORNE: I can't tell you. After I shared it with him on the phone I went to his office and we had further conversation and then... 2038 2039 INVESTIGATOR: Was there any recommendation from your office? 2040 HORNE: I don't make recommendations. My job is to gather information. 2041 2042 INVESTIGATOR: What point did you know that Mr. Frazier had been taken off of pal? 2043 2044 2045 2046 2047 2048 HORNE: To the best of my recollection, you'll find an email in that ops file coming from my assistant on the following day, notifying those who are in the need to know; payroll, HR, the principal, risk management., etc. that Frazier would be returned to work effective immediately. How my assistant got that information I can't recall. I don't remember if Mr. Martin came to me and I gave her the directive or Mr. Martin went directly to her or Mr. Martin's assistant called her. I don't recall. There could be notes in the file, I can't recall. 2049 INVESTIGATOR: How familiar are you with applicable Florida child abuse laws? 2050 HORNE: I'm pretty familiar. Page 73 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 2051 2052 2053 2054 2055 INVESTIGATOR: Based on your understanding of those laws what's your opinion as to whether based on that investigation Rod Frazier, did not meet the requirements to report this to law enforcement? In other words, based on your knowledge of the law, did you believe that Rod Frazier, based on the allegations, you have someone at the school had an obligation to contact law enforcement. 2056 2057 HORNE: Based upon the information I obtained, I did not suspect child abuse on the part of Frazier. 2058 2059 2060 INVESTIGATOR: That's not my question. My question is this. You're very familiar with the laws in the state of Florida dealing with child abuse. Is that correct? 2061 HORNE: I am familiar, yes. 2062 2063 2064 INVESTIGATOR: Based on your familiarity with the laws and the information you gathered, between November 14th and 15th, is it your opinion that the police did not need to be contacted regarding this allegation? 2065 HORNE: It's what I just said. I did not suspect abuse. 2066 2067 INVESTIGATOR: Had you investigated Rod Frazier prior to November 14th or 15th? 2068 2069 2070 2071 2072 HORNE: In I believe it was 2006, could have been 2007, I believe it was Mr. Frazier was arrested for a violation of an injunction. Any school board who is arrested or is given a notice to appear, by policy 6.13 must report that to the office of professional standards. So somehow I became aware of his arrest. Either Frazier notified me or a hit came through the FBI base to our HR department and they notified me. That's the two ways I'd get notified. 2073 2074 INVESTIGATOR: Is that the only recollection you have of an investigation of Rod Frazier? 2075 HORNE: It's the only one I have, yes sir. 2076 2077 INVESTIGATOR: If I said to you that there is another recorded complaint against Rod Frazier, that was entered into your database, while in the office of professional standards with regard Page 74 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 2078 2079 to Rod Frazier, directly related to inappropriate contact with a student, would that refresh our memory? 2080 2081 2082 2083 2084 2085 2086 2087 2088 2089 2090 2091 2092 HORNE: I can tell you that the year prior to this investigation, so this was November 2012, sometime in 2011 superintendent at the time, Tim McGonegal, received an anonymous call. I do not know the exact details of the call in regards to inappropriate interactions of Frazier with students. There will be emails in that ops file in front of you, between myself, Tim McGonegal, superintendent, Angela Essig. She was the director of secondary administrators and Matt Kane. He was the interim principal at the time. Tim asked me how we handle anonymous complaints. I shared with him that my learning's from the school board and staff attorney is that we cannot ignore an anonymous complaint but we can't put them in the employees' personnel file. So what we've done in the past is we've shared the anonymous complaint with the employees' supervisor, had the supervisor call the employee in, voice the anonymous complaint to them, allow the employee to respond and at any time the supervisor felt they needed to cease talking to the employee because there was some credence to the complaint, they were to stop and call their director and then ops would get involved. 2093 2094 2095 INVESTIGATOR: My question to you is; did you have knowledge prior to November 14th of other instances or other situations that involved Rod Frazier; specifically with regards to inappropriate contact with children. 2096 2097 HORNE: And I was explaining to you. The year prior, the superintendent got an anonymous phone call. The Matter was not handled by me. 2098 2099 2100 INVESTIGATOR: At what point was the disposition placed in your professional records; the ops office? 2101 HORNE: I'm not looking at the records so I can't answer that. 2102 2103 2104 2105 2106 INVESTIGATOR: I'm telling you, it's there. So my question to you is, if in fact you got a call from superintendent that says there's some anonymous person making a complaint, is protocol in the ops office a mere questioning from the superintendent regarding how to handle an anonymous complaint, was it common that you would then place that in OPS records? 2107 2108 HORNE: There are two different types of OPS records that are up in that dept. there are the formal open, that are open files. They'll be in a file. They'll be numbered op-and ending in the Page 75 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 2109 2110 2111 2112 2113 2114 2115 2116 2117 Case No. 12-2033-OP school year. I believe what you're talking about is I had another file that was kept on a spread sheet and those Matters that I assisted site based people with. They were screened and not deemed to be opened as a formal ops investigation. The two thousand six or seven with Frazier and his arrest was a formal ops Matter that was handled by dept. The 2011, anonymous phone call was not a formal OPS investigation. It was superintendent asked me how we handle anonymous complaints, I told him. The principal, Matt Kane handled it. I got his response, there's an email with some hand writing on it that will tell you Matt Kane said he spoke with Frazier and issued directives and expectations. That's how it was. That was not a formal investigation. 2118 2119 2120 2121 INVESTIGATOR: Prior to November 15th or 14th when you opened this investigation, did you have prior knowledge that Mr. Frazier had been alleged to have had inappropriate contact with a minor child? 2122 HORNE: Yes. 2123 2124 2125 2126 INVESTIGATOR: During your investigation, were you ever informed that Mr. Frazier may have or that some factor or some fashion, wanted Mr. Frazier, to proceed in a fast Matter or order. That Mr. Frazier would be able to participate in the playoff game? 2127 HORNE: I don't understand the question. I'm sorry. 2128 2129 2130 INVESTIGATOR: Have you ever or was it ever told to you that this investigation needed to proceed quickly because of Frazier's relationship to the football program. 2131 HORNE: No sir. 2132 2133 2134 INVESTIGATOR: Did you have a conversation with in the lobby, around the elevator area, of this building with bob Gagnon where bob Gagnon suggested to you that we needed to get this things taken care of because of the importance of football at Manatee High School? 2135 2136 HORNE: I know exactly where that's coming from? Did I have a conversation with Mr. Gagnon around the time of the investigation? I absolutely did. My assistant Chis Ruggiero were getting Page 76 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 2137 2138 2139 2140 2141 2142 Case No. 12-2033-OP ready to leave the building for some purpose, I don't recall what. Bob stopped me in the hallway, Christine walked off, and he asked me how's it going? Typical Bob would ask me on certain cases. I said that in the process of doing the investigation, I'm not finding out anything new. The information in the letter, based upon the 6 employees I interviewed is not anything that had not been addressed by manatee high. Mr. Gagnon's was something to the effect and I don't recall his words, well good, then we need to get him back to work. 2143 2144 INVESTIGATOR: Why 2145 HORNE: I didn't ask. 2146 2147 INVESTIGATOR: And did you pass that information on to Christine? 2148 HORNE: Yeah I did tell her that when we got in the elevator. 2149 2150 INVESTIGATOR: What exactly did you tell her? 2151 HORNE: I don't recall. 2152 2153 INVESTIGATOR: On or about November 15th, you interviewed a Mr. Rinder. Is that correct? 2154 HORNE: I did. 2155 2156 2157 2158 INVESTIGATOR: During that conversation, with Mr. Rinder, you specifically asked Mr. Rinder to provide names where he had allegations, but no names. So you asked him for names of who was involved. 2159 HORNE: I did. 2160 2161 2162 INVESTIGATOR: You also during that investigation, or interview, found out that of least 4 students. Is that correct? Page 77 of 181 2163 2164 Z165 Z166 Z167 2168 2169 2170 2171 2172 2173 2174 2175 2176 2177 2178 2179 2180 Z181 Z182 2183 2184 2185 2186 2187 Roderick Frazier Manatee Hugh School Case No. ]2--2033r0P HORNE: i'd have to look at my notes to be exact. I was given a handful of names. A male student. About four. Four female students? HORN E: No. there was sir. I don't have my notes in front of me, you have them. There was one male and a couple of females. INVESTIGATOR: On or about November 15"' you discovered one of the students involved name to he'|ast name. INVESTIGATOR: The otherstudents name was-? Did you discover: HORNE: INVESTIGATOR: I HORN E: 2 INVESTIGATOR: And I And then there was a young man? HORNE: Ok. So that's five. Yes Slr. INVESTIGATOR: So you discovered there were putentlaily four potentlally four vlctims; children. Isthat true? Page 78 of 181 2188 2189 2190 2191 2192 2193 2194 2195 2196 2197 2198 2199 2200 2201 2202 2203 2204 2205 2206 2207 2208 2209 2210 2211 2212 2213 2214 Roderick Frazier Case No. 12403370? Manatee High School HORN E: I was given four names or students, yes. brief pause was given to Mrs. Horne so she could speak to her attorney, Mr. Lomhardo] We are back on record at 2:48 PM INVESTIGATOR: The question I asked was; we talked about your interview with Mr. Rinder. Mr. Rlnder wrote a report that was given to school administration, Manatee High School. In that report, there were allegations but no names with those allegations. Vour interviews with Mr. Rinder were in part for purposes of obtaining these names. Correct? HORN E: Correzl. INVESTIGATOR: At some point in time, whether it was prior to your interview with Rinder or at the time of your interview with Rinder, you discovered the names of four young ladies and one male student. Is that correct? HORN E: Kinder provided me the names to the teachers who voiced the concerns to him because he had no firsthand knowledge and the names of students. When I asked Rinder which name, matched which concern, he was uncertain. He was confused with names. He said it would be best, and I did to talk to each of the individual teachers to assure that what he was saying was accurate and that the child matched up with the concern with the teacher. INVESTIGATORI At some point in time, between the time that you spoke with hinder and the time you interviewed these other teachers if you will, you were able to get the names of four young ladies and one male. Is that correct? HORN E: Correct. INVESTIGATOR: The names of the females were, at correct? HORNE: And the male student, maybe -possibly. Page 79 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 2215 2216 2217 INVESTIGATOR: Let's go back to your conversation with the superintendent, who expressed that he had an anonymous person that's filed a complaint against Frazier. Do you deal directly with the superintendent? 2218 HORNE: Sometimes. 2219 2220 INVESTIGATOR: Did you deal directly with the superintendent in this Matter? 2221 2222 2223 2224 2225 HORNE: I can tell you at least for a portion of it I did. You'll find an email in that ops file, between myself, the superintendent and Angela Essig who was the director of the high school principals. How it originally came to me I don't know if the superintendent's assistant let me know I got the call or the superintendent called me directly asked me to come into his office. Did he tell Scott and Scott told me; I have no recollection. 2226 2227 2228 INVESTIGATOR: So it could have come from Scott Martin, it could have directly from the superintendent or his asst. you just don't recall. 2229 HORNE: I sure don't. I do know I had contact with him because an email exists. 2230 2231 INVESTIGATOR: And the case was then sent back to principal Kane. 2232 HORNE: It wasn't a case. It wasn't an official ops case. It was an anonymous phone call. 2233 2234 2235 INVESTIGATOR: So, an anonymous phone call suggesting Mr. Frazier had an inappropriate relationship with ... 2236 HORNE: No, I'm sorry, not an inappropriate relationship. 2237 INVESTIGATOR: What was the charge? Page 80 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 2238 2239 2240 Case No. 12-2033-OP HORNE: It was I typed inappropriate interactions. The concern to the best of my recollection is that Frazier was having girls riding in his golf cart at lunch time and having girls eat lunch with him, in the cafeteria and in his office. The concern was not a relationship. 2241 2242 2243 INVESTIGATOR: So explain to me what the difference is in the two. I'm saying inappropriate contact, you're saying... 2244 2245 2246 2247 2248 2249 2250 HORNE: You didn't say contact, you said relationship. Relationship to me in my mind whether it is accurate or not, infers to something mutual; a relationship going on; whether it be appropriate or inappropriate. To the best of my recollection, and I don't have a recording of the anonymous call, nor did I ever hear it, Tim voiced to me whether it was through Tim or through his assistant or through Scott that there were concerns that Frazier was seen with girls running around in his golf cart and that Frazier was having lunch with girls. To me that is not a relationship. 2251 2252 INVESTIGATOR: If you know, what was the final disposition? 2253 2254 2255 2256 2257 2258 HORNE: It was handed over to Matt Kane who is the interim principal. I had asked him via email, to let me know what he found out and if he needed my assistance. I didn't hear from him so I called him and I recall writing some little scribble hand written notes that Matt Kane said he'd addressed it, he issued directives and expectations that that interaction with the students, riding in the golf cart, should cease and desist. Thank you for your time, I don't need your help anymore. Have you seen that email? 2259 2260 The INVESTIGATOR: said. "I've seen so much" 2261 Horne said: "I'd be glad to point it out to ya." 2262 2263 The Investigator said: We don't have to go through that, you have the right to have a copy of this report at some point in time. 2264 Horne: 10 days after the employee gets it. 2265 INVESTIGATOR: We are well past that. Page 81 of 181 2266 2267 2268 2269 2270 2271 2272 2273 2274 2275 2276 2277 2278 2279 2280 2281 2282 2283 2284 2285 2286 2287 2288 2289 2290 2291 2292 2293 Roderick Frazier Case No. 12403370? Manatee High School HORN E: Were well past what? The employee has that? I'm sorry the employee has the file? INVESTIGATOR: You mean Frazier? No. I was talkingabout you as an employee. Approximately what date did you receive the letter of complaint from 'o you remember? HORN E: Let's see, Christmas break pasted; we came back in January. I did not receive it first. First the letter went to the senior secretary at Manatee High School, Mrs. Perez. Mrs. Perez gave the letter to Don sauer, principal; Don sauer gave the letter to his boss, Jim Pauley. And that letter then either went to Scott Martin and then me or me and then Scott Martin. It went either way. Sometime right after Christmas breaks. January 6th, I can': tell you for sure when Christmas break ended. INVESTIGATOR: After reading that letter did you call law enforcement? HORNE: No I did not. INVESTIGATOR: Do you know ifthe principal called law enforcement? HORN E: I do not know. INVESTIGATORI How did that letter get to you? Did it come through the school; did it come directly to your office? HORN E: This is going to be to the best of my recollection. It's ok to call you troy? Troy, to the best of my recollection, again I don't have it in front of me, Mr. Sauer contacted me via phone. Told me he got a letter and I suggested he get it to Pauley his boss. Pauley read it and Pauley said you need to look into this. I then asked Sauer to send me the letter via first class, via the email. And then he sent it to me. That is, that may not be exact. Without the file in front of me it's very hard to tell you the exact. Things come to ops as you will soon learn and I'm sure you know from yourexperience in different forms. Different formats, different people. However, ifl received the letter first I would not have to authority to look into it without first being directed to do so by Pauley or martin. Page 82 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 2294 2295 2296 INVESTIGATOR: In the eight hundred or so cases you had in the eight years you've been with the office of professional standards, how many of those cases would you rough estimate dealt specifically with inappropriate relationships or contact between student and an adult? 2297 2298 HORNE: I'm going to leave out physical aggression, like restraining a student inappropriately or are you talking more of..... 2299 2300 INVESTIGATOR: Sexual connotations. 2301 HORNE: That's a tough question. I eight years how many. 2302 2303 INVESTIGATOR: More than ten? 2304 HORNE: No I can't say so but you're asking me to guess. 2305 2306 INVESTIGATOR: Just guess, intelligently. More than five? 2307 HORNE: I'm really not comfortable guessing sir. 2308 2309 2310 INVESTIGATOR: Is this the first investigation that you've conducted of this inappropriate relationship or inappropriate contact with a student? 2311 2312 HORNE: No. I can remember one for sure. There was a teacher at Bayshore high school, last name Raven, Todd. I know that one for sure. 2313 2314 INVESTIGATOR: So at least one other. 2315 2316 2317 HORNE: And there has to have been more. There's a record there. You can look it up and know for sure. I kept pretty good records. Off the top of my head I'm just not comfortable giving you a number. Page 83 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 2318 2319 2320 INVESTIGATOR: You've given me one other and that's Raven, Todd. And with regards to the raven investigation do you remember how long that investigation it took to complete that investigation? 2321 2322 HORNE: I do not. I know that the subject Matter of raven is totally different that the subject Matter of Frazier. 2323 2324 INVESTIGATOR: What makes it different? 2325 2326 2327 2328 2329 2330 HORNE: A cousin of his was involved, accusing him of sexually molesting her when they were younger. So law enforcement was involved in that Matter and she didn't live in the state. And raven's alleged misconduct with the school district is, that he was dating the students and he was actually seen in a restaurant. He went to a restaurant where Bayshore high school some of the teachers were there for a school function with other students with a club and he came in with two girls under each of his arms. You're asking me or detail. Raven was years ago. 2331 2332 2333 2334 INVESTIGATOR: What makes that any different then allegedly Frazier is at a park with a young lady or allegedly Frazier is seen other places with a student. What makes the dynamics any different? 2335 2336 2337 HORNE: You know. I've have to look at raven. Raven, when I spoke with him, didn't deny. As far as I recall troy. Again you're asking me things that happen so long and I have a hundred cases. You're... 2338 2339 INVESTIGATOR: Let's go back to Frazier. [Ok] How long did it take your investigation? 2340 HORNE: My investigation was not concluded when I left ops. It was still open. 2341 INVESTIGATOR: So the investigation started November 14th but it had not concluded. 2342 2343 HORNE: We received the letter I believe on the 14th. To the best of my recollection, I did not interview anyone until the 15th and when I left on January 25th, the investigation was still open. Page 84 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 2344 INVESTIGATOR: So the investigation had not been closed? 2345 Case No. 12-2033-OP HORNE: No it had not. 2346 2347 2348 2349 INVESTIGATOR: To the best of your recollection, there was a determination made. Investigation starts on the 14th, (correct me when I'm wrong) Mr. Frazier was placed on pal on the 15th and Mr. Frazier was then removed from pal on the 16th. Is that correct? 2350 HORNE: That's correct. 2351 2352 2353 2354 INVESTIGATOR: At that point you were 20 hours in to your investigation, if you're looking at, not considering that you've probably work 8 to 4. You started the investigation, 12 o'clock on the 14th. What time did you start your investigation? 2355 HORNE: I did not start my investigation on the 14th. 2356 2357 INVESTIGATOR: When did you start it? 2358 2359 HORNE: On the 15th. The letter was received on the 14th. I did not begin interviewing anyone until the day following. 2360 2361 INVESTIGATOR: So you began your investigation on the 15th? 2362 HORNE: Correct. 2363 2364 INVESTIGATOR: And was Mr. Frazier placed on pal prior to you starting your investigation? 2365 HORNE: Yes. 2366 2367 2368 INVESTIGATOR: So he was placed on pal on the 15th. Some point after that you began your investigation. Page 85 of 181 2369 2370 2371 2372 2373 2374 2375 2376 2377 2378 2379 2380 2381 2382 2383 2384 2385 2386 2387 2388 2389 2390 2331 2392 2393 2394 2395 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School case No. 12403370? HORN E: Correct. INVESTIGATOR: And then Mr. Frazier came off pal on the HORN E: Correzl but you have to please recall that I don't know who took him off administrative leave and I have no authority to make that decision. I was not part of that. INVESTIGATORZ Was it clear that your investigation would continue? HORN E: Absolutely. I spoke with Mr. Martin many occasions about the continuance and what would be next as well as Mr. Bowen. And on November 15"' and many subsequent days I asked Mr. Martin and Mr. Bowen shall I go to Palmetto high school and intervi She down the street, and the response was no, you do not have a victim that has come forward. No. Are you sure? you don't want me to go interview No you don't have a victim that's come forward. In January when we receive:-letter I was told, now you have a victim and please go interview -- I went to interview herthe next day, or the day after. You have the notes, I don't. INVESTIGATOR: on November 15"' you startedthe investigation. On November 15" Fraziers placed on pal. On the very next day he's taken off pal and you are directed to stop your investigation. HORN E: No sir. You're incorrect. I was not directed to stop. INVESTIGATOR: Let me explain myself. If you told to stop your investigation, why is it that you're not able to continue interviewing witnesses? HORN E: i did continue interviewing witnesses. INVESTIGATOR: vou just said you weren't. HORNE: No I didn't. Vou'retaking words and mixing them around. I asked shall I go interview one particular individual, I was told no, you do not have a victim that came Page 86 of 181 2396 2397 2398 2399 2400 2401 2402 2403 2404 2405 Z406 2407 2408 2409 2410 2411 2412 2413 2414 2415 2416 2417 2418 2419 2420 2421 2422 2423 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. ]2--2033r0P forward. If you want me to go through the list, there was one young lady who the allegation was Mr. Frazier asked to Skype her. I can't remember if that's -- It's one of the two. I talked to Mr. Martin about that and Mr. Martin said do not inten/iew her. Skypirlg a student is not against policy. There is no law being broken, there is no policy, we don't need to interview her. so that':Now, either -don't recall. The young man, It was about a grade change. That would be an Issue handled at the school site. So I was told not to see him. The other young lady was a young lady who allegedly was having a relationship with Frazier, according to Mr. Rinder. When I interviewed the teacher who told Rinder that, because Rinder didn't hear for himself, from anyone. The teacher told me no, that's not what I told him, that's not what I told him at all. And I shared that with Scott. And Scott said there's no need. He said Kinder took it out of context. INVESTIGATOR: Did Scott Martin interfere with your ability to conduct a reasonable thorough investigation? HORN E: No sir. Scott Martin was my supervisor and Scott Martin is an attorney. A certified bar attorney. INVESTIGATOR: What's that have to do with anything? he's a supervisor and an attorney? INVESTIGATOR: Vou're an INVESTIGATOR: HORN E: i always went to him for advice. INVESTIGATOR: You're an INVESTIGATOR: youriob is in your mind, to collect information, accurate information, regardless of what that information may conclude and pass that information on to some higher power( group of people in the chain of command] that higher power, based on your investigation, then makes a reasonable and proven decision on what actions are to be taken. Am I right or wrong? Page 87 of 181 2424 2425 2426 2427 2428 2429 2430 2431 2432 2433 2434 Z435 2436 2437 2438 2439 2440 2441 2442 2443 2444 2445 2446 2447 Z448 2449 2450 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School case No. 12403370? HORN E: think you're misunderstanding. That is not totally accurate on how we operate. Prior to Mr. Martin, my supen/isor was staff attorney, rob Shapiro. Then Scott Martin, staff attorney came on as my supervisor. Scott Martin was then promoted to assistant superintendent, still an attorney and stiil remained my supervisor. At anytime, that I did an investigation, I either went to Rob or Scott, whoever my supervisor was; told them were I was in the investigation and we talked about next steps. INVESTIGATORZ Did you do that in this case? HORN E: Yes. INVESTIGATOR: And at some point and time, they told you that you could not interview a key witness. HORN E: You're taking words and turning them. I never said could not. INVESTIGATO oid Scott Martin say to you or was it your understanding that you could not interview - HORNE: He did not say could not. No. It: r. And he did not say Debbie, you cannot interview her. Just like nobody said you cannot do this. Because Scott Martins advise to me and john Bowen's advice to me, as school board attorney and staff attorney, is you do not have a victim that's some fowl/ard, or there is not a need to interview. They are my supervisors, they are attorneys; they are educated in the law. I took their advice. INVESTIGATOR: At any time between the 15" of November and the oflanuary, was the date that the ietter from --vas dated, did you interview the student,' HORNE: No. Student- HORN E: interviewei.fter the letter. Page 88 of 181 2451 Z452 Z453 2454 2455 2456 2457 2458 2459 2460 2461 2462 2463 2464 2465 2466 2467 2468 2469 2470 2471 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School case No. ]2--2033r0P INVESTIGATOR: That wasn't my question. Between November 15"' and the lime letter came In to existence, did you Interview student -- HORNE: No. INVESTIGATORI Did you interview student HORNE: N0. INVESTIGATOR: Did you interview student - HORNE: N0. INVESTIGATOR: Did you interview student - HORN E: No. that that INVESTIGATOR: Are four of those students at manatee county public schools? HORN E: Some of them are former students, some of them are students; one ofthem is out of state. INVESTIGATOR: Which one is out of Slate? INVESTIGATOR: Did you attempt to contac-- prior to January HORNE: No. Page 89 of 181 2472 2473 2474 2475 2476 2477 2478 2479 2480 2481 2482 2483 2484 2485 2486 2487 2488 2489 2490 2491 2492 2493 2434 2495 2496 2497 2498 2499 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School case No. 12403370? INVESTIGATORI Prior to November Which was the date that Mr. Frazier was removed from pal, did you have knowledge of the allegation tha hat a teacher walked into a room that was closed and when she opened the door, student'as sitting on Rod Frazier': lap, feeding him cake. Did you have knowledge of that prior to November HORN E: Yes. INVESTIGATORZ Did you have knowledge that it was alleged that Frazier, on at least one occasion, had met student--at night, in the evening at a park, close to her home? Did you have knowledge of that prior to November HORN E: Ves. INVESTIGATOR: Looking at the case or the investigation, after the fact, what would be, do you believe the police should have been called at or around November HORN E: Based upon the information that I gathered on November I did not believe that a phone call should be made to the police. When i spoke to the police and they cornered me and asked me the same question, my response to them, was something to the effect of sarcasm, well if you weren't sitting here or ifl would've made the call, maybe you wouldn't be here. Or the call should have, maybe 50. But at that time, I did not have suspicion that Mr. Frazier had committed child abuse. INVESTIGATOR: And is that your role as an Investigator? HORNE: ls what my role? Sorry. INVESTIGATORI To make a determination on whether someone may or may not have committed an offense, a violation of law? HORNE: No. INVESTIGATOR: That's my understanding of what you Just said. Maybe you want to clarify that. Page 90 of 181 2500 2501 2502 2503 2504 2505 2506 2507 2508 2509 2510 2511 2512 2513 2514 2515 Z516 Z517 2518 2519 2520 2521 2522 2523 2524 2525 2526 2527 2528 2529 2530 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. ]2--2033r0P HORNE: Myiob as a school board employee is I have an airirmarive duty to make a call to the hotline, if I suspect abuse or neglect; any person who has reason to believe. I didn't have reason that Mr. Frazier was abusing students. INVESTIGATO Do you think an interview with student prior to November may have changed your opinion on whether there had been a possible crime committed? HORN E: I can share with you what I shared with you already. That I reviewed the information about these individuals, that was shared with me, with my boss, Scott Martin, who is also an attorney. We had conversation and it was not on our radar, it was not, based on what we were hearing, we did not reel that ifthe allegations were true, they were abuse. If the allegations were true, were they inappropriate things for a gentleman to be doing, possibly; abuse no. A child sitting on your lap is not abuse. It's stupid. INVESTIGATOR: Based on that explanation, do you believe that if you had student do you believe that based on these interviews with what you know now, it would have been proper to contact law enforcement? HORN E: I can't say sir, because i don't know what they would've said. I can't answer that question. INVESTIGATOR: Did you interview them at some point? HORN E: I interviewed, I spoke with --sometime after the letter and she gave me the names ol-- who I cou|dn'ti or reach. somebody, was able to reach. I interviewed --told me that wh not truthful. I think those are the only two names that gave when I asked 'o give me names oi people who could confirm that she met in the park, that this took place, she couldn't give me names of those people. She said that she met him in the park her father drove by and saw them in the park together and that on one occasion she went to give Mr. Frazier a hug good bye and in her initiating the hug, Mr. Frazier lifter her up by her bottom. She never used the work groped, or iondled, lifted her up. When I asked her it she reported that to anyone, she said she had not. Were there any witnesses, no just the fact that whol Page 91 of 181 2531 2532 2533 2534 2535 2536 2537 2538 2539 2540 2541 2542 2543 2544 2545 Z546 2547 2548 2549 2550 2551 2552 2553 2554 2555 2556 2557 Roderick Frazier Manatee High school Case No. 12403370? one of the times, her dad drove by. The only witness she could give me was this young lady I who allegediy sent a picture of herself, naked, to Mr. Frazier. And me she never sawthe email, with the picture in it, she simply saw a naked picture of-on her phone.-enied the picture and the sending of the email. She said it never occurred. INVESTIGATOR: During your eight years with the office at professional standards, is it common practice for you to initiate an investigation and conclude the investigation prior to contacting law enforcement or child protective services? HORN E: Not sure it I'm understanding your question. INVESTIGATOR: We've interviewed for quite a while and most of what I'm hearing is that you are basically being the decision maker as to whether in fact the case meets the litmus to be referred out to law enforcement. what isyourformal investigative training? HORNE: You've asked me two things and iwant to back up on The Iitmusthing lam not the iitmus to whether a can is made or not. Every employee in the district whether they be a painter or a carpenter or a teacher, or the superintendent, must make the call. That's their own decision. it doesn'tgo through me. INVESTIGATOR: Does that negate you from you responsibility to report? HORN E: Absolutely not. if I suspect abuse I have to make the call. And I have on many other occasions. INVESTIGATOR: But you didn't suspect abuse in this case? HORNE: suspect? No I did not. INVESTIGATOR: And you did not suspect inappropriate contact between an adult and a student, a child. HORN E: i didn't say I didn't suspect inappropriate contact, i said I didn't suspect child abuse. And that is what my duty is, to call on. Page 92 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 2558 2559 2560 2561 INVESTIGATOR: Let's talk about inappropriate contact between an adult and a student. If you suspect inappropriate contact between an adult employee of manatee county public schools and a student of manatee county public schools, do you have an obligation to contact law enforcement? 2562 2563 2564 HORNE: Not to my knowledge, no. Not to my knowledge, I do not have a legal obligation. I did report that to my supervisors, that this is what's being alleged. But as far, the way I understand it, my obligation is to report suspect abuse or neglect. 2565 2566 2567 2568 2569 INVESTIGATOR: When we talked a little earlier about whether you believe a call should have been made to law enforcement and let me just ask you that question again. Do you believe that as a result of your investigation up until November 9th, do you believe a call should have been made to law enforcement in this case? 2570 2571 HORNE: Do you mean January 9th? [January 9th] So from November 15th to January 9th. Do I feel a call should have been made to law enforcement? Are you talking about the abuse hotline? 2572 2573 2574 2575 2576 2577 INVESTIGATOR: I'm talking about law enforcement. Period. Anybody. Should you have made a call to anyone, the abuse hotline, Bradenton Police Department? Do you believe that based on the information that you gathered on those two dates, between the 14th and the... Let's just narrow that down first. Between the 14th and 16th, do you believe that a call to law enforcement should have been made? 2578 2579 2580 2581 2582 HORNE: No. I did ask the question, did the SRO's were involved. I wanted to know that because there were at least a dozen people, if not more, in receipt of this knowledge before me. Was anyone concerned? Did anyone call the School Resource Officers? You've got two of them sitting beside Frazier; one here and one here. Did anyone? Nope. They didn't have that level of concern. So the answer is no. 2583 INVESTIGATOR: Did you interview any of the two law enforcement officers at the school? 2584 HORNE: I did not. Again this investigation was not concluded. Page 93 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 2585 INVESTIGATOR: And tell me why it was not concluded on the 16th. 2586 HORNE: Because there were other people to interview. There were other avenues to explore. 2587 2588 2589 INVESTIGATOR: There were six, as per your earlier statement, when you spoke with Rinder; you concluded that there were six adults that needed to be interviewed, immediately. 2590 2591 HORNE: Maybe one of them was Frazier. It could have been five and Frazier, but yeah, something like that. Again without the documents in front of me it hard to give you specifics. 2592 2593 INVESTIGATOR: And you interviewed those six adults? 2594 HORNE: Yes. 2595 2596 INVESTIGATOR: But you didn't interview any of the five children? 2597 HORNE: No I did not. 2598 2599 2600 INVESTIGATOR: Based on your interview with the five adults, you concluded, you passed that information on to Scott Martin. 2601 HORNE: Correct. 2602 2603 INVESTIGATOR: Scott Martin then passes the information on to whomever. The decision is made to remove Frazier from PAL and to reinstate him. 2604 HORNE: That's what I was told. 2605 2606 INVESTIGATOR: And your understanding on the 16th was that you are to proceed forward with your investigation? 2607 HORNE: Correct. Page 94 of 181 2508 2609 2510 2611 2512 2613 2614 2615 2616 2617 Z618 2619 2620 2621 2622 2523 2624 2625 2626 2627 2628 2629 2630 2631 2532 2633 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12403370? INVESTIGATION: But you are to proceed iorward with the investigation under some conditions, certain conditions. One on which would have been, the person who the main victim, alleged victim. We know it's a victim at this victim. At that point it may have been an alleged Victim. But any case, the alleged victim -- You knew then that she was a main, someone that was a subject ofthis investigation. But you're being told by your superior hands off of HORNE: That yes. Vou're putting words in my mouth again. Mr. Martin did not tell me hands off. Nor did Mr. INVESTIGATORJ Who told you.. HORN E: No one said hands off and I never used the words hands off. INVESTIGATOR: You may not have used the words hands off rna'am, but what you did say very clearly in my mind, correct me if I'm wrong, is that you were told do not call or communicate wlth--)ld you not tell me that? HORN E: i told you that they told me that there was no need to interview her, you do not have an alleged victim, do not go over there. Yes. They didn't use the words, hands off. INVESTIGATOR: How do you not have an alleged victim when the reason that you're are going there is because of allegedly Frazier had inappropriate Contact with' HORN E: Sir you would have to ask Mr. Martin and Mr. Bowen. INVESTIGATOR: Vou're the investigator, I'm asking you. HORN E: Sir, they have a legal background, they have more experience. I went to them, as I do in other cases, reviewed the information and what are next steps? I was told not to go interview her. Page 95 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 2634 2635 INVESTIGATOR: Let me play a statement that you made to the Bradenton Police with regards to whether in fact there should have been a call made to the police. 2636 2637 [The investigator played a portion of the interview with Debbie Horne with the Bradenton Police Department.] 2638 HORNE: Wow. 2639 It is 3:25 and this conversation, interview is over. Page 96 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 2640 2641 2642 Debra Houston Interview: 2643 Troy Pumphrey, Investigator and Deborah Houston, Principal, Manatee Elementary School August 21, 2013 - 9:05 AM 2644 2645 INVESTIGATOR: Ms. Houston what's your job title? 2646 HOUSTON: I'm the principal of Manatee Elementary 2647 2648 2649 INVESTIGATOR: Ms. Houston, I'm here because I've spoken to a number of people; you know I'm investigating the Rod Frazier case of Manatee High School? 2650 HOUSTON: I have heard. 2651 2652 2653 2654 INVESTIGATOR: We have some issues with regards to some actions of some of our employees; Scott Martin, Debbie Horne who were both over the Office of Professional Standards back when the investigation started. Tell be briefly what your relationship is with Debbie Horne? 2655 2656 HOUSTON: I've known Debbie Horne for approximately 15 years and we are very good friends, very close. 2657 2658 2659 2660 2661 INVESTIGATOR: I received a call a couple of days ago that outlined a dinner at a restaurant back in January where you were with Debbie Horne and her husband, maybe some others. Specifically during that time, Debbie Horne's husband sent an inappropriate email or text message to principal Hundley. Are you familiar with that? 2662 HOUSTON: I am. 2663 2664 INVESTIGATOR: Tell me about that. 2665 2666 HOUSTON: I only became familiar with that, it was after the fact, Debbie Horne and I were at the mall, Desoto Square mall, which is right across the street or adjacent to Chili's. After we left Page 97 of 181 2667 2668 2669 Z670 2671 2672 2673 2674 2675 2676 2577 2678 2679 2680 2681 2582 2583 2584 2685 2686 2687 2688 2689 2690 2591 2592 2693 2694 Roderick Frazier Case No. 12403370? Manatee High School the mall, we later went to Chili's; we met with her husband and one of the principals from Southeast High School. INVESTIGATOR: Which principal was that? HOUSTON: i believe his last name is Butler, I had seen him before but that was my first time meeting him. And we were therefor a short minute, we did not have dinner. We had i think, Mr. Home, I think Mr. Horne had been there with some of his friends and we just kind of met them there, after we finished up at the mail. So I'm not privy to was there before we got there, but when we go there It was JUSI the four of us. And we didn't have dinner, we stayed for about 45 minutes, we spoke about a Board meeting. I can't tell you specifically what Board meeting it was. But I believe that Mr. Butier and I kind of concluded that we were both natives of Paimetlo and Iwanted to, I asked him who we' And he tried to make me know who he was by naming some of his family members and I still did not know the young man. And that was about as much as was Said about- But from what I understood, and we on: not know this at the time, there was text message sent. I assume while that conversation was going on or before we got there, I'm not sure. INVESTIGATOR: Who was that text sent from? HOUSTON: Mr. Michael Horne. INVESTIGATOR: Who was it sent to? HOUSTON: Ithink it was sent to Ed Hundley. I neversaw the text message. INVESTIGATOR: Who was this-- why did you mention--How is that applicable to your meeting on that day? HOUSTON: well we were just speaking in general about the Board meeting and I was curious to know who this young man, who had so many negative things to say about Ms. Horne. Being that I was her friend, liust wanted to know if they had any inside information. Page 98 of 181 2695 2696 2597 2698 2599 2700 2701 2702 2703 2704 2705 2706 2707 2708 2709 2710 2711 2712 2713 2714 2715 2716 2717 2718 2719 2720 2721 2722 2723 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School case No. 12403370? INVESTIGATORZ Make me understand, It you Will; you're at Debbie Horne and her husband and Mr. Butler and you're talking to Mr. Butler about you guys both being from the same neighborhood and then, from Palmetto, and what led up to the conversation regarding -- You said during the course of conversation you were discussing a Board meeting and who brought up this Board meeting? HOUSTON: INVESTIGATOR: And how does how do you put him In with the Board meeting? Did something happen with HOUSTON: He spoke at the Board meeting and that's the only way that I know him, through seeing him on television speaking at the Board meetings. He would always have; been included in the publiccomments and I think I may have brought it up. I said now, who is this guy' because I didn't know who he was and I wanted to know who he was. I don't recall. INVESTIGATOR: And so then, when you bring up the name what happens? HOUSTON: Mr. Butler says, I think he's from Palmetto. He's one of the Holmes' and he started talking about his family and I said, Oh, but I still don't know him. I said, I think I mentioned a couple of names, Holmes' that I did know and said, IS that their brother or is It the other ones child? And he didn't really know. And then names he mentioned I wasn't familiar with. And that was about as much as was said. INVESTIGATOR: So what happens with text message? HOUSTON: As I said, I know about the text message until after the fact. So I don't even know when that happened. I just heard that it happened. Sol wasn't privy to any one or had any knowledge of anyone sending a message as we sat there' ljust found that out later. INVESTIGATOR: And if I say to you that the text message was sent the same time that you were there, what would your response he then? HOUSTON: It mayhave been. I didn't know. Page 99 of 181 2724 2725 2726 2727 2728 2729 2730 2731 2732 Z733 Z734 2735 2736 2737 2738 2739 2740 2741 2742 2743 2744 2745 2746 2747 2748 2749 2750 2751 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School case No. 12403370? INVESTIGATOR: Did you see Mike Home, on his phone? he express or did Debbie Horne express some dismay with Mr. Holmes at all? HOUSTON: As much INVESTIGATOR: The reason I ask you that is because if you guys are sitting around or wherever you were, Chi|i's and Mr. Holmes' name comes up and at about the same time frame, a text is sent from the Horne's phone to principal Hund|ey's phone, right? Then the context ofthat conversation had to be such that, in my mind, it triggered Horne sending that text. I'm just asking you to clarify it for me in my head because I hear what you're saying but there are some gaps in the things that I'm hearing you say. HOUSTON: And there probably are some gaps, Mr. Pumphrey. That was in January and I don't have a memory like an elephant. All I know is that I don't know when the text message was sent. It may have very well been sent while we sat there. What I'm saying is that if it was sent, no one made a public service announcement. 'I'm sending a text message to Ed Hundley'. Nobody said that and nobody passed a phone around to see that. So I don't know that ror a fact. But right now at least in your statement, the only person that was talking about 's was you? HOUSTON: Uh-huh. INVESTIGATOR: No one else? HOUSTON: Ms. Horne said, she said when we talked about the negative things that he said about Ms. Horne, all of the negative things. And I can't remember all of them. About Mr. Home at some of the Board meetings, she said, I don't know what his deal is. I don't know what he has against me. So that's about, we didn't come there to talk about-- think I brought it up because we were talking about a Board meeting and asked Butler about it. wasn't even talking to Horne about that. Page 100 of 181 2752 2753 2754 2755 2756 2757 2758 2759 2760 2761 2762 2763 2764 2765 2766 2767 2768 2759 2770 2771 2772 2773 2774 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School case No. 12403370? INVESTIGATORI What do you know about the text message? HOUSTON: it alluded to something about somehudy's bottom. INVESTIGATOR: Do you feel free to tell me what you heard? HOUSTON: i might not say it correctly. INVESTIGATOR: Ok well, say it the best that you know. HOUSTON: Do you have your. up INVESTIGATOR: Who was that sent from? HOUSTON: was told it was sent from Michael Home to Ed Hundley. INVESTIGATORZ Vou did not see Michael Home Send it. Did you have the occasion to talk to Debra Home about it at some point? HOUSTON: After the fact, after we had actually left. So this wasn't even; we stayed a hot minute and we were gone. INVESTIGATOR: So you spoke with her later that evening about it? HOUSTON: i believe it was later that evening, or that morning; one or the other. INVESTIGATOR: What time were you guys out shopping? HOUSTON: Around 4:30, 5:00. Page 101 of 181 2775 2776 2777 2778 2779 2780 2781 2782 2783 2784 2785 2786 2787 2788 2789 Z790 Z791 2792 2793 2794 2795 2796 2797 2798 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School case No. 12403370? INVESTIGATOR: So you spoke about it later that evening or the next morning? HOUSTON: Uhehuh. INVESTIGATOR: Do you know what day this was? Was it a weekend? HOUSTON: No, it wasn't a weekend. It was a weekday. INVESTIGATOR: And then what happened? What were you told after that? Tell me about that conversation with Debbie on that eveningor the next morning. HOUSTON: The conversation with Debbie was she was very upset because at this point now, she knows this text message has happened it exists. And I'm not sure exactly how she found out, I want to say Eddie told her but I don't know that for sure. Um, and she was upset and she was saying she could not believe Mike had done that, why would he do that? And she did not condone his actions. And of course I agree with her. I couldn't understand why he would do something like that. Nor did i understand why Eddie would share that with Mr. - So we had a conversation about that later. INVESTIGATOR: Why Eddie would share the text with whom, I'm sorry. HOUSTON: r. INVESTIGATORZ With- INVESTIGATOR: so, -- HOUSTON: Yes. Page 102 of 181 2799 2800 2801 2802 2803 2804 2805 2806 2807 2808 2809 2810 2811 2812 2813 2814 2815 2816 2817 2818 2819 2820 2821 2822 2823 2824 2825 2826 Roderick Frazier Case No. ]2--1033r0P Manatee High School INVESTIGATOR: And what happened after that? What transpired after your conversation with Debbie Home on that evening or the next morning? HOUSTON: We went, well that was the extent of that conversation. I think we talked again briefly about her conversation with Mike, why he had done that and I think he told me that he told her, this is all hearsay, that he and Eddie play around like that. You know they send each other message's like that all the time. Which if they do, I don't know but that's what he told her. And he didn't seem to think it was a big issue or it should have been because they hand like that, they roll like that so. INVESTIGATOR: 50, Eddie Hundley and Mike Horne have a relationship? HOUSTON: According to Mike. |don't know. INVESTIGATOR: Tell me if you remember how at some point did Debbie have to address that issue with her superiors at some point? Do you know? HOUSTON: She did. She did have to address that. I don't remember exactly who it was, whether It was Mr. Martin or the superintendent. I don't recall, but she did have to address it. INVESTIGATOR: Did she tell ydu about that meeting with Mr. Martin orthe superintendent? HOUSTON: There was one meeting that she could not discuss with me and that may have been the initial one. She just told me don't worry, but she's in trouble. And she said you know, and I respected herjob. The entire time she had the job. Because I respect her and she did good job. I respected that, she said I can't talk to you about it but I'm in trouble. And that's when she said that the text message had somehow gotten into hands and he in turn wrote a letter to all of the Board members and included myself in that which he doesn't know me. He said, we were all drunk, at dinner and that was the furthest thing from the truth. So that was about as much as she could tell me about that, at that time. But since then, we've all gotten the buzzes of everything that has happened, so. Page 103 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 2827 2828 INVESTIGATOR: After her meetings with her boss, or bosses to include Scott Martin, superintendent, what happened then? 2829 HOUSTON: She was transferred over to Prine Elementary as the Assistant principal. 2830 2831 2832 INVESTIGATOR: Was that something that she wanted, did she express that she wanted to be transferred or they told her she had to go? 2833 2834 HOUSTON: I believe they told her she had to go. That was, we never had a conversation about that prior to that. And I attributed it to the actions that were taken. 2835 2836 INVESTIGATOR: When's the last time you've spoke to Debbie Horne? 2837 HOUSTON: I texted her last night. 2838 2839 INVESTIGATOR: When was the last time you actually saw her? 2840 HOUSTON: I haven't seen her since, it was before school started. 2841 2842 INVESTIGATOR: Did you have any idea I'd be here today? 2843 HOUSTON: I had no idea. I wish I had; I wouldn't have been here. 2844 2845 It's 9:20 and the interview is over. Page 104 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 2846 2847 Matthew Kane Interview: August 9, 2013 10:00 AM 2848 Troy Pumphrey, Investigator and Matt Kane and Legal Counsel, Brett McIntosh 2849 2850 2851 We are here with Matt Kane and his Legal Counsel, Brett McIntosh. Mr. McIntosh would like to make a statement. 2852 2853 2854 "We are here under the instruction of the School Board to answer questions and Matts here in the capacity of an employee of the school board. It's our understanding that he carries with that the immunity protections quorum to him by law." 2855 INVESTIGATOR: Mr. Kane, please state your name for the record. 2856 KANE: Matt Kane. 2857 2858 INVESTIGATOR: Where are you currently employed? 2859 KANE: School District of Manatee County. I'm at Southeast High School now. 2860 2861 INVESTIGATOR: Where were you employed prior to Southeast High School? 2862 KANE: Manatee High School. 2863 2864 INVESTIGATOR: How long were you there? 2865 KANE: Approximately six years. 2866 2867 2868 INVESTIGATOR: Can you give me the month and date that you arrived at Manatee High School and the month and date that you transferred to Southeast? 2869 2870 KANE: Off the top of my head, I believe it was July of '07 when I arrived, June or July. The summer of '07. And I just transferred June of '13. Page 105 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 2871 2872 2873 2874 2875 2876 2877 2878 2879 2880 2881 INVESTIGATOR: I've got two reasons to have you here to interview you. The first reason I have you here is because some statements that had been made through interview processes with both Debbie Horne who at the time was the OPS investigator here, as well as a number of teachers and or others staff members at Manatee High School. We are talking specifically about the Frazier investigation that was originally opened November 14 of 2012. What I'd like to do is I'd like to ask you a number of questions and get your feedback, your comments on whether in fact you had knowledge of this information. The first is Debra Horne stated she received a complaint about inappropriate behavior between Rod Frazier and a female student and that information was then sent to you via, email on or about February 13, 2012. And she gave the information to you and she asked you to look into the issue and to provide the appropriate directives. Do you remember that? 2882 KANE: No. 2883 2884 2885 INVESTIGATOR: If I showed you an email between you and Debbie Horne, will that refresh your recollection? 2886 KANE: I have no idea. 2887 2888 2889 2890 2891 2892 2893 INVESTIGATOR: Let me show it to you anyway and you tell me if that refreshes your recollection. This is an email that was sent, or forwarded to you from Debbie Horne. Debbie Horne has notes here from 2013 that she spoke with Kane, updated Kane. Will speak with Frazier, and there are some other notes here that are highlighted. I don't know if you can understand those notes but take a look at that and let me know if that brings anything to your attention. 2894 KANE: I don't recall it. Is this the only page to it? 2895 2896 INVESTIGATOR: There's a second page but.... 2897 KANE: This is from Horne to McGonegal. Page 106 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 2898 2899 2900 2901 INVESTIGATOR: This is from Horne to McGonegal, but Horne must have forwarded it. It says from Horne; subject Frazier, to Matt Kane. So it looks like at least this page here was forwarded to you. But more so, I want you to read the handwritten notes, Horne made here, stating she spoke to you on 2/13. 2902 KANE: I don't even understand the notes. 2903 2904 INVESTIGATOR: Let me read it to you. Says, "Updated Kane, he will speak with Frazier and issue oral directives to remain professional at ". And I don't understand what the rest of the it. 2905 KANE: What's it pertaining to? 2906 2907 INVESTIGATOR: Rod Frazier 2908 KANE: I understand that, but pertaining to what? 2909 2910 2911 INVESTIGATOR: There was an allegation that came in with regards to Rod Frazier, inappropriate contact with a student. And evidently it came to our office; she referred it back to you. 2912 KANE: Such as what inappropriate what? 2913 2914 INVESTIGATOR: I have no idea. Do you remember, or you don't remember? 2915 KANE: You're going to have to give me more details than that. 2916 2917 INVESTIGATOR: So you don't remember? 2918 KANE: Inappropriate what? 2919 2920 INVESTIGATOR: You don't any reports? 2921 2922 2923 KANE: The only this that I recall is someone said, someone was sitting with Frazier in a golf cart. That's not contact, that's sitting in a golf cart. If that's what it's pertaining to then that's what it's talked about and I talked to him about sitting in a golf cart. That is not inappropriate Page 107 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 2924 2925 Case No. 12-2033-OP contact. To me that's sitting in a golf cart. I talked to him about that; orally talked to him about that so that's a verbal talk to him. 2926 2927 INVESTIGATOR: Would that have been on or about February 2012? 2928 KANE: Could have been, I don't know for sure. 2929 2930 INVESTIGATOR: During the interviews Mrs. Peebles, do you know who she is? Who is she? 2931 KANE: She's a teacher at manatee. 2932 2933 2934 INVESTIGATOR: Did she ever notify you of about an incident where she walked into Frazier's office and saw a student sitting on Frazier's lap? 2935 KANE: I do not remember that. 2936 2937 INVESTIGATOR: You don't remember where that occurred? 2938 KANE: Nope. 2939 2940 2941 INVESTIGATOR: A Mr. Gulash reports that Frazier put a bottle between a student's legs from behind her and he also reported that to Mr. Kane. Do you remember that? 2942 KANE: No. 2943 2944 2945 2946 2947 INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember having a meeting with Mr. Sauer on or about November 14th when Mr. Sauer received a letter of complaint from Steve Rinder. Mr. Sauer states he asked you if you had any information on the complaints and you told him that the complaints were old and that you had already looked into those complaints. Page 108 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 2948 Case No. 12-2033-OP KANE: That's not exactly correct, no. 2949 2950 INVESTIGATOR: Correct me. 2951 2952 2953 2954 KANE: The information, some of the stuff was old was the teachers have things against Frazier, was old. So with the information, Mr. Rinder didn't necessarily turn the information. It was first given anonymously. So when that complaint first came in it was anonymous. It was not from Mr. Rinder. 2955 2956 2957 INVESTIGATOR: At some point in time, on or about November 14th, the principal met with you with regards to that letter. Is that right? 2958 KANE: I don't know the exact time but yes, somewhere in there. 2959 2960 2961 INVESTIGATOR: Was there a time during that conversation where you told Mr. Sauer that the allegations were old or had already been looked into? 2962 KANE: I cannot say that no. 2963 2964 INVESTIGATOR: You can say what? 2965 2966 KANE: I don't even know what the allegations are. This is how many months ago. I'd have to see what you're talking about. 2967 2968 2969 INVESTIGATOR: Are you familiar with a golf cart incident where Mr. Frazier shoved a bottle between a student's legs? 2970 KANE: No. 2971 2972 INVESTIGATOR: I need to redirect you into another area. How long have you been married? 2973 KANE: What does that have to do with Mr. Frazier? Page 109 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 2974 2975 INVESTIGATOR: We are not talking about Mr. Frazier right now. We're talking about another situation. How long have you been married? 2976 KANE: Two years. 2977 2978 INVESTIGATOR: What's your wife's name? 2979 KANE: Jessica. 2980 2981 INVESTIGATOR: Where is Jessica employed? 2982 KANE: Manatee High School. 2983 2984 INVESTIGATOR: How long has Jessica been at Manatee High School? 2985 KANE: Six years. 2986 2987 2988 INVESTIGATOR: Did you meet Jessica while employed as an Administrator at Manatee High School? 2989 KANE: No I did not. 2990 2991 INVESTIGATOR: Where did you meet her? 2992 KANE: I don't even recall actually. I don't remember off the top of my head where I met her. 2993 2994 INVESTIGATOR: Were you and Jessica dating while she was at Manatee High School? 2995 KANE: Dating? I don't know. I don't know what the term dating means, so. Page 110 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 2996 INVESTIGATOR: When you and Jessica married, were you employed at Manatee High School? 2997 KANE: Yes. 2998 2999 INVESTIGATOR: Was she employed at Manatee High School? 3000 KANE: She was on leave. 3001 3002 INVESTIGATOR: From where? 3003 KANE: Manatee High School. 3004 Thanks a lot for the interview. I really appreciate you coming in and giving up your time. Page 111 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 3005 Scott Martin Interview: (1 of 2) 3006 Wednesday, August 7, 2013 AT 10:35 AM 3007 Case No. 12-2033-OP Troy Pumphrey, Investigator and Scott Martin, Staff Attorney 3008 3009 INVESTIGATOR: Could you please state your full name for the record? 3010 MARTIN: Full name is Scott Alexander Martin. 3011 3012 INVESTIGATOR: Scott, what is your current job title? 3013 MARTIN: Staff Attorney. 3014 3015 INVESTIGATOR: What was your position on or about November 14, 2012? 3016 MARTIN: Assistant Superintendent for District Support. 3017 3018 INVESTIGATOR: In that role, were you direct supervisor to the office of Professional Standards? 3019 MARTIN: Yes. 3020 3021 3022 INVESTIGATOR: On or about Nov. 14, 2012, did you have the occasion to order or open an investigation regarding Roderick Frazier? 3023 MARTIN: Yes. I don't remember the exact date, but that sounds correct. 3024 3025 3026 INVESTIGATOR: Can you give me the particulars of how you came about the investigation? Was it documentation that was forwarded to you and if so by whom? 3027 3028 MARTIN: I cannot remember exactly how it came to me. I know the nature of .... I can't remember if Debbie Horne brought the information to me. I can't remember if a principal Page 112 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 3029 3030 Case No. 12-2033-OP called me directly but I know the nature of how it was opened. But exactly how it got to me, I'm not sure. 3031 3032 INVESTIGATOR: With regards to the case, you don't remember the date that the... 3033 MARTIN: not specifically. 3034 3035 3036 INVESTIGATOR: The files that I have in front of me states that the investigation was opened on 11-14-12. So let's assume that the case was opened on that date. 3037 MARTIN: ok, that's fine. 3038 3039 3040 3041 INVESTIGATOR: You don't know how you became known about this case, whether it was forwarded from the school, Debbie Horne or could it have been forwarded to you by anyone else? 3042 3043 3044 MARTIN: It's possible. The likely course would have been that it would have been from the school, to Debbie Horne because they are used to her being the OPS investigator and then from her to me. 3045 3046 3047 3048 3049 3050 INVESTIGATOR: I interviewed Mrs. Horne a couple days ago and Mrs. Horne shares with me that she was asked on, by you, on 11-14 to go down to Manatee High School. Let's say Nov 14th or 15th. She said you asked her to go down to Manatee High School to do a preliminary investigation, to find out what's going on at manatee and then to report that back to you. Do you remember that conversation? 3051 3052 MARTIN: Vaguely I don't think I would have used the word preliminary. I just would have told her to begin the investigation. 3053 3054 3055 3056 INVESTIGATOR: Her understanding or at least her testimony is that her instructions were to go to manatee, find out what was going on then, she was to report it back to you. She further stated that she was in manatee, she interviewed six or seven adults and at the conclusion of Page 113 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3057 3058 those interviews, on the 15th, she called you from the principal's conference room. Do you remember that? 3059 MARTIN: I believe that's correct. 3060 3061 3062 INVESTIGATOR: Can you tell me who was in that conference room with her when she called you? 3063 MARTIN: No. I wasn't there. I don't know. 3064 3065 INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember speaking with anyone else in the conference room? 3066 3067 3068 MARTIN: I think she told me that the school administrators were in there. She said AP's were in there. I don't remember specifically who and I might have said, hi guys and then they might hi to me. I don't specifically remember. 3069 3070 INVESTIGATOR: So you don't remember? 3071 3072 MARTIN: We didn't do like individual introductions. Mr. X is present, Mr. Y is present. It wasn't that kind of a conversation. 3073 3074 INVESTIGATOR: You don't remember to date whether in fact any of the voices in that room? 3075 MARTIN: No. But I assume they were there. 3076 3077 3078 INVESTIGATOR: Tell me if you remember what the context of that conversation was between you and Mrs. Horne? 3079 3080 MARTIN: I believe Debbie was just giving me kind of a summary of her findings based on the allegations that had been made by Steve Rinder. Page 114 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3081 3082 INVESTIGATOR: Tell me what you remember about the findings that she stated them to you from Manatee High School. 3083 3084 3085 3086 3087 3088 3089 3090 3091 MARTIN: The jest of it, it's hard to say there was a jest. I'll say she kind of summarized it based on kind of categorized Mr. Rinder's allegations in three different ways. There were some that I believe that Mr. Rinder was himself able to offer a direct statement on that he saw. The rest of it was stuff he had heard. Then there was a category of things that she was unable to, Rinder for example said that I heard from this person, that. Then Debbie spoke with that other person and they said that's not true. So, things that didn't go anywhere appeared just to be hearsay and rumor. Then there was a category of things that appeared had happened but administration was aware of them, had happened over a year ago but they had been dealt with at the school. That's general. 3092 3093 INVESTIGATOR: During that same conversation, did Mrs. Horne tell you who she interviewed? 3094 MARTIN: I don't specifically remember that but I think she would have done that, yeah. 3095 3096 3097 INVESTIGATOR: At some point in time she said that you asked her to come back to the office so you could, quote or unquote, chat about this. 3098 MARTIN: I don't remember doing that, but that's probably appropriate. 3099 3100 INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember the conversation with her once she returned to your office? 3101 3102 3103 3104 MARTIN: specifically no. I'm saying we went back over everything to see if there was. I know we had a conversation round about this time where I had asked her, did you chase every rabbit trail? Is there any other thing that you could do; that sort of discussion. And that's the type of thing we would do in an investigation. 3105 3106 3107 INVESTIGATOR: If that conversation took place you asked her if she chased every rabbit trail, what does that mean. Did you chase every rabbit trail? 3108 3109 MARTIN: Did you pull every thread. Did you investigate every lead that you had based on what we know? Were you thorough I guess is what I'm saying. Page 115 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 3110 INVESTIGATOR: What would her response have been? 3111 Case No. 12-2033-OP MARTIN: Yes. 3112 3113 3114 3115 INVESTIGATOR: She also stated prior to going out to Manatee High School that you asked her to set aside all of the investigations that she was working on and to get out to Manatee High School. Do you remember that conversation? 3116 MARTIN: Yes. 3117 3118 INVESTIGATOR: Explain to me why it was that you asked her to put aside all of her other cases to work on this case? 3119 3120 3121 3122 MARTIN: There was some concern that the allegations that come about were based on rumor and innuendos. It was incumbent for us to get out there quickly after I had a conversation with Bob Gagnon about regarding the matter to avoid the proliferations, the spread of rumors by Mr. Frazier. 3123 3124 3125 INVESTIGATOR: The allegations were based on rumors. How did you come to the initial opinion that the allegations were based in part on rumor? 3126 MARTIN: It wasn't an opinion; I was provided information that they might be. 3127 3128 INVESTIGATOR: What was that information? 3129 3130 3131 3132 3133 3134 3135 3136 3137 3138 MARTIN: I had a conversation with Bob Gagnon, I do not remember whether he called me or I called him regarding the Frazier matter. And I said what's going on with this because Bob had been the former principal with Manatee High so I wanted his prospective on these allegations. He had said something to the effect of, yeah, there had been rumors about Frazier before, at some point he said Frazier had told him that these rumors had destroyed his marriage and otherwise he was getting a bad name. Bob went into some specifics about one incident there where Mr. Frazier was riding around on golf carts with girls and it had created this idea that there was something improper going on and Bob had to put an end to that. Ultimately it was the idea that there, he had no idea about the substance other than the golf cart thing and that if we didn't get out there and investigate this thing right away, because Mr. Frazier was going to Page 116 of 181 3139 3140 3141 3142 3143 3144 3 145 3 146 3 147 3148 3149 3150 3151 3152 3153 3154 3155 3156 3157 3158 3159 3160 3161 3162 3163 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School case No. 12403370? be coaching football on Friday night, the rumors of him not being there would spread like wildfire. And it would put the employee in an even worse position as far as these rumors go. INVESTIGATOR: Was that initially your opinion or was that the opinion of Gagnon? MARTIN: Bob said that to me. INVESTIGATOR: As per Mrs. Home's recorded interview I'd like to play part this is something that you agree with. portion of the recording was played for Mr. Martin and asked, "Is that consistent with what your understanding is? MARTIN: ves. Except I don't have any specific knowledge about she was working on _n I don't remember anything about that. Generally yes. INVESTIGATORI Do you remember when Mr. Frazier was placed on MARTIN: No. But it would be evident from the Pal letter. INVESTIGATORI The Pal letter is dated 11--15. MARTIN: That makes sense then. INVESTIGATOR: When Mrs. Horne came back to your office, did you have an opportunity, Let me ask you this. When you asked Mrs. Horne if she had pursued all angles, whatever the acronym is, you asked Mrs. Horne, basically if she had done a thorough investigation at that point. Is that right? MARTIN: Yes. And I knew it wasn't thorough in that she had yet to interview Mr. Frazier, It had not been drawn to a close. I think at that the time, the concern wasn't, is the investigation over, the concern was should Mr. Frazier remain on PAL. Page 117 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3164 3165 3166 INVESTIGATOR: So your understanding at the time of that meeting is that she interviewed five or six or seven people, probably teachers, most teachers. Do you know off the top of your head who in fact she interviewed prior to you meeting with her after leaving Manatee High School? 3167 MARTIN: No, I don't remember. I'm sure she would have told me. 3168 3169 3170 INVESTIGATOR: You made a statement that she interviewed everyone except Frazier at that point. 3171 3172 MARTIN: No, I just meant in general. I knew that when I said thorough I knew the investigation itself was not complete. The question at that point regarded PAL, not is the investigation over. 3173 3174 3175 INVESTIGATOR: The last statement that you made was you knew she interviewed a number of people but had not yet interviewed Mr. Frazier. Is that what your last statement was? 3176 MARTIN: Correct. 3177 3178 INVESTIGATOR: Do you know at what point she interviewed Mr. Frazier? 3179 MARTIN: I don't remember. I know she did interview Mr. Frazier but I don't know when it was. 3180 3181 INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember when Mr. Frazier was taken off PAL? 3182 MARTIN: I believe it was the day after. 3183 3184 INVESTIGATOR: Who was responsible for placing Mr. Frazier on PAL? 3185 3186 MARTIN: Dr. David Gayler who was the interim Superintendent at the time, at my recommendation. Page 118 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3187 3188 3189 INVESTIGATOR: Sometime on or around November 14th, which was the date you guys received information that warranted opening a case, somewhere between the 14th and the 15th. It was your recommendation to place Mr. Frazier on PAL? 3190 MARTIN: Yes. 3191 3192 INVESTIGATOR: And that was based on what? 3193 MARTIN: The standard that we utilize in deciding to put an employee on PAL. 3194 3195 INVESTIGATOR: How long have you worked directly with the Office of Professional Standards? 3196 MARTIN: About three (3) years; since my hire. 3197 3198 3199 3200 3201 3202 INVESTIGATOR: And in three years working with the Office of Professional Standards, can you give me an idea of how many cases you have handled through the Office of Professional Standards, similar to these allegations? Specifically, how many cases have you handled where an adult, teacher, coach, liaison, is alleged to have had a relationship or an inappropriate contact with a student, a minor student? 3203 3204 MARTIN: No. Our files would bear that out, it would be easy to figure out, but I don't know how many. 3205 3206 INVESTIGATOR: Can you give me, more than five? 3207 MARTIN: I would say they were, thankfully, infrequent. 3208 3209 INVESTIGATOR: But this is not the first case? 3210 MARTIN: No. Page 119 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3211 3212 3213 INVESTIGATOR: If you can, how many cases of this magnitude; how many cases of this type had you placed someone on PAL and then removed him or her from it within twenty four hour period? 3214 MARTIN: I can't recall. Again the files would bear that out. 3215 3216 3217 INVESTIGATOR: Do you have a recollection of whether that's something that's normal, in a case of this magnitude? 3218 MARTIN: No, a case of this type? No, I said it is not normal. 3219 3220 INVESTIGATOR: I said magnitude. 3221 3222 3223 MARTIN: Magnitude depends on the evidence. What you've got is this was something of a unique case too in that there weren't any, at the time, any witnesses or it was very stale in terms of the allegations themselves. 3224 3225 3226 3227 3228 INVESTIGATOR: When the investigator, Mrs. Horne went out to Manatee High School, it is her statement that she first needed to interview a gentleman by the name of Rinder because Mr. Rinder provided documentation of complaint. But that documentation was without names. Do you recall that? 3229 3230 MARTIN: Vaguely. I know that Mr. Rinder was the one that made the allegations. With or without names, I don't recall. 3231 3232 3233 INVESTIGATOR: At some point in time between the 14th and the 16th, did you come to know who was interviewed by Mrs. Horne? 3234 MARTIN: I'm sure Debbie told me who she interviewed, yes. Page 120 of 181 3235 3236 3237 3238 3239 3240 3241 3242 3243 3244 3245 3246 3247 3248 3249 3250 3251 3252 3253 3254 3255 3256 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12403370? INVESTIGATORZ Do you remember a conversation where Mrs. Home asked If she could go back out to Manatee High School and continue her investigation? MARTIN: No. INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember giving her a directive to conclude the investigation? MARTIN: No, INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember talking to her and advising her not to make contact with one of the alleged victims, student by the iast name of' MARTIN: Directing her not to make contact with that student? INVESTIGATORI Yes. MARTIN: No i don't remember. INVESTIGATORZ Part of the Home interview was played for Mr, Martin, and the investigator asked, "Does thatjog your memory?" MARTIN: Well yes, I remember that conversation. The questions the way you phrased them didn't get that on point. I remember that Conversation. INVESTIGATOR: Why wauid you tell her not to go back out to rnanatee to continue her investigation? MARTIN: That wasn't the conversation. Page 121 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3257 INVESTIGATOR: What was the conversation? 3258 3259 3260 3261 3262 3263 3264 3265 3266 3267 3268 3269 3270 3271 3272 3273 MARTIN: The conversation was specific to and this is a normal thing that Debbie and I would go through in any investigation. Is, what else can we do here? We've again, it's all part of the chase the rabbit trail, have you pulled every thread? What other things could we do? Debbie threw out, 'and I could go to manatee and just pull kids at random and ask them questions,' not kids, staff members. And that's something that we might do in an investigation where for example you've got an incident that occurred in a classroom. And a teacher says; let's say teachers accused of doing something wrong, some misconduct and the teacher says you need to talk to Jimmy. Jimmy saw the whole thing. That's one of the students. But what we would do, instead of just talking to Jimmy, we would select some students at random that likely had a view point to see what was going on so that we got not the one that the teacher directed us to, but a random sampling of different perspectives on what happened. This is different. We were at a loss for anything else to do, so Debbie said I could go and just ask some random people. But because the evidence we had up to that point, just suggested it was rumor and innuendo driven, all that was going to do was continue to spread the rumors. Just selecting a random person at Manatee High and asking them about Mr. Frazier would not be calculated to lead anything of use. 3274 3275 3276 3277 3278 INVESTIGATOR: Was it also practice that once an investigation was opened and the investigator began their investigation, that you would advise the investigator on methods or advise the investigator on investigative techniques. Is that something that you and Mrs. Horne had an understanding about? 3279 MARTIN: It was a collaborative kind of thing. 3280 3281 3282 3283 INVESTIGATOR: So she would gather a bit of information. She would bring that information to you, and you would tell her whether she needed to continue with her investigation or end her investigation? Or was it a little more complicated than that? 3284 3285 3286 3287 MARTIN: No. it was more complicated than that. Usually those conversations came up if Debbie was stuck. Or if let's say she had an interview coming up and she wanted my perspective on some questions that what else can I ask here; should I ask this, this way? But usually it was I'm stuck, where else can I go, that kind of thing. Page 122 of 181 3288 3289 3290 3291 3292 3293 3294 3295 3296 3297 3298 3299 3300 3301 3302 3303 3304 3305 3306 3307 3308 3309 3310 3311 3312 3313 3314 3315 Roderick Frazier Case No. 12403370? Manatee High School INVESTIGATOR: Mrs. Home states, she began the investigation on November 15" and if I'm hearing you, then Mrs. Home was stuck during the evening of, or the afternoon of November 15'" and needed direction on how she best should proceed with her investigation. Is that accurate? MARTIN: No. I don't recall that she came to me and said I'm stuck. This was a conversation that we mutually agreed to have after she got input from the people from Manatee High school. INVESTIGATOR: Were you aware of the people that she interviewed at that point? MARTIN: Again, as I said, I cannot tell you who they were. I'm sure that Debbie would have told me all those people. INVESTIGATOR: The original complaint was dealing with inappropriate contact between what two parties, or what parties as you remember it? MARTIN: There were, again ldon't remember what they are. rtiat would be evident from Mr. Rinder's letter. I would have to review that. But one example, they did not all relate to Inappropriate Contact with students. one, the only one that Mr. Rinder could offer direct statement on was, he saw a girl get into Mr. Frazier's car. Debbie I think, and again I wasn't there but she told me she asked, what was your concern was about that, and he didn't have any concerns because at the time he thought this might be Mr. Frazier's son's girlfriend. So it wasn't all specific to inappropriate relationships, or touching of females. There was one allegation regarding a student sitting on Mr. Frazier's lap and feeding him cake. remember that one specifically. But I think there were like six or seven total that Mr. Rinder had expressed and not all of them were specific to inappropriate contact. INVESTIGATOR: Did you have or were you aware of the allegations of inappropriate contact between Mr. Frazier and student 'prior to November 15"' when the date that the investigator, Horne, went out to Manatee High School? MARTIN: Prior to that date? Page 123 of 181 3316 3317 3318 3319 3320 3321 3322 3323 3324 3325 3326 3327 3328 3329 3330 3331 3332 3333 3334 3335 3336 3337 3338 3339 3340 3341 3342 Roderick Frazier case No. 12403370? Manatee High School INVESTIGATORI Prior to November which was the date that Mrs. Horne went out to Manatee High School? MARTIN: I had never heard of Rod Frazier prior to that day. INVESTIGATOR: And as a result of her initial investigation on the did you become aware oi a student by the name of, last name of' MARTIN: I know that name now. I don't remember when her name first came up; INVESTIGATOR: If there was a decision, when did Mr. Frazier, when was he returned back to work and taken off of PAL status. MARTIN: I don't specifically remember, again Ithink it was the day after he was suspended, or the day after that. I can't remember specifically. INVESTIGATOR: The records show that on November 15", he was placed on PAL and he was removed on November 16h. MARTIN: That sounds right. INVESTIGATOR: As a result of your meeting with the investigator, you were convinced that she had done a full and complete investigation or at least she had provided enough information in your mind through her investigation to warrant placing Mr. Frazier back to work and off of PAL. MARTIN: Those are two diirerent questions. whether she had done a thorough and complete investigation I5 different from whether it was appropriate to return him to work. That goes to the standard ror why we put employees on PAL INVESTIGATOR: In your opinion did, at the point that Mrs. Horne left Manatee High School, and came to your office to talk to you about the particulars of her findings, were you convinced at that point that she had conducted a complete and thorough investigation? MARTIN: No. Page 124 of 181 3343 3344 3345 3346 3347 3348 3349 3350 3351 3352 3353 3354 3355 3356 3357 3358 3359 3360 3361 3362 3363 3364 Roderick Frazier Case No. 12403370? Manatee High School INVESTIGATOR: What was in your mind,whatlustified at that point, you making recommendation to place Mr. Frazier back to work and off of MARTIN: It went to the standard that we used to determine if someone belongs on PAL. PAL is; does this person represent a current threat to staff or students. That would be the reason. And based on what Debbie was able to obtain at Manatee High at the time, all these paths, rabbit trails, threads, however you want to call them, lead to either rumor or innuendo or something that had occurred in the past. There was no immediate danger in returning Mr. Frazier to the classroom. Or I'm sorry, to the school. INVESTIGATOR: Specifically, with regards to Mr. Frazier, and a student 's per the letter that was submitted by Mr. Rinder, do you remember what the allegation was; the original allegation? MARTIN: I believe it was the eating cake allegation. Because she was sitting on his lap; eating cake. Dr feeding him take I believe. INVESTIGATOR: The nature of, if in fact that allegation had been confirmed, what would have been the dispusition of the case? In other words, what would you have considered the violation as per either state statue or school board policy? MARTIN: What violations could that support? INVESTIGATORZ Yes. MARTIN: There's a, I'd have to look at my list. There's, the way it's phrased Page 125 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3365 3366 3367 INVESTIGATOR: I don't need the law. Basically I'm asking.... Let me ask you this differently. The allegation is inappropriate touching or inappropriate conduct between an adult and a child. Is that right? 3368 MARTIN: Yes. That's the general category. 3369 3370 3371 INVESTIGATOR: So, Mr. Frazier then, it's alleged that Mr. Frazier is being accused of inappropriate touching a minor. Is that right? 3372 MARTIN: Yes. 3373 3374 3375 INVESTIGATOR: And your determination to place him back to work is that, there is no immediate threat to the students to Manatee High School? 3376 MARTIN: Or staff. 3377 3378 INVESTIGATOR: Or staff? 3379 MARTIN: Correct. 3380 3381 3382 INVESTIGATOR: Did you consider that by placing Mr. Frazier back to work; Mr. Frazier could then be involved with inappropriate contact, inappropriate touching with another student? 3383 MARTIN: Did I consider that? 3384 3385 INVESTIGATOR: Did you consider that in your decision to place him back to work? 3386 3387 MARTIN: I suppose that's a possibility. Yeah, I'm sure I considered that, but based on the evidence that we had at the time, there was no indication that would, that was a risk. Page 126 of 181 3388 3389 3390 3391 3392 3393 3394 3395 3396 3397 3398 3399 3400 3401 3402 3403 3404 3405 3406 3407 3408 3409 34 10 3411 3412 3413 3414 3415 3416 Roderick Frazier Case No. ]2--1033r0P Manatee High School INVESTIGATORZ At the time that you met with Mrs. Horne, after she left Manatee High School, did she not inform you or did you not have prior knowledge that Roderick Frazier had been arrested previously for a battery charge and then also had been alleged that he was involved in another incident; at least one other incident at Manatee High School, with regards to inappropriate Contact with a student? Did you have that knowledge priorto making the decision to place him back to work? MARTIN: I don't remember. ldon't remember if we had that; it would have been ordinary course for Debbie to include past discipline in her report, but i may have, I don't know. Debbie would probably be the better source for that, because I would have received it from her. INVESTIGATOR: And did you review any or her notes. Did you review any documentation to help you in your decision making process as to whether Mr. Frazier should be return back to work or not returned back to work? MARTIN: No I didn't look at her notes. I had an active conversation with Debbie. I would not ordinarily go back and look at her notes. INVESTIGATOR: So you trusted the opinion of the investigator who had conducted interviews and reported back to you based on her findings from a one day investigation. Is that right? MARTIN: Ves.That's her job. INVESTIGATOR: And do you remember asking or do you remember making a statement to Mrs. Home the investigatorthat she should not interview or contact 'because at this point there is no victim? MARTIN: I don't specifically remember that, no. INVESTIGATOR: I'm going to try to advance this to a point that you can hear my interview with her. [The investigator played a portion of the recording with Debbie Home, to Mr. Martin] What she's talking about there is how she came about this prior, having prior knowledge of the alleged incident between Frazier and another student. And what she iS saying is that she Page 127 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3417 3418 3419 3420 received, that the Superintendent went to her directly about an anonymous complaint and she directed the superintendent that in normal situations, you guys would refer that back to the schools. Do you have prior knowledge of that communication between the then superintendent and Mrs. Horne? 3421 MARTIN: No. 3422 3423 3424 3425 INVESTIGATOR: Is that something that is... You've been there three years and in the three years that you've been here have you ever known the superintendent to speak or to bring a complaint directly to Mrs. Horne? 3426 3427 MARTIN: I'd say that's not the usual way things come up. I can't remember any specific incident. 3428 3429 3430 [The recorder was placed on pause at 11:20 while a part of the interview with Mrs. Horne was located.] 3431 3432 3433 3434 3435 INVESTIGATOR: We are back on record at 11:31 am. I want you to listen to part of the recording of the investigator Mrs. Horne with regards to her understanding of when the case was taken off, placed on PAL, taken off of PAL. She talking specifically about some conversations that she had with you. [A portion of the interview with Mrs. Horne was played at this time and Mr. Martin was asked: Do you remember that conversation? 3436 MARTIN: Specifically no. But I would imagine we would have had it. 3437 3438 INVESTIGATOR: Is her explanation consistent with what your understanding was? 3439 3440 3441 MARTIN: Yes. She has no authority to decide who should be placed or returned from PAL. That's all correct and the investigation did not conclude when he was returned, Mr. Frazier was returned to work. That's correct. Page 128 of 181 3442 3443 3444 3445 3446 3447 3448 3449 3450 3451 3452 3453 3454 3455 3456 3457 3458 3459 3460 3461 3462 3463 3464 3465 3466 3467 3468 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School case No. 12403370? INVESTIGATORZ She also referenced she spoke with both you and Mr. Bowen. Who was Mr. Bowen? MARTIN: He was the former School Board Attorney. INVESTIGATOR: Is that protocol? is that something that typically would occur; that she would speak with you and Mr. Bowen? MARTIN: Ves. INVESTIGATOR: And do you have any reason to believe that Mr. Well did you guys have a conversation together, between you, Mr. Bowen and Mrs. Horne? MARTIN: I don't, I don't recall. That would be an ordinary thing for us to talk about an open investigation; an avenue that we could take this and that. I don't specifically remember one the three of us had regarding Mr. Frazier. INVESTIGATOR: To the best of your knowledge were you and Mr. Bowen both on the same page with regards to the investigation continuing as stated by Mrs. Horne during her interview? MARTIN: I can't speak for John but as rar as I know, yes. [The investigator played a portion of the interview tape from Mrs. Horne's interview, for Mr. Martin., and asked: INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember that conversation? She'sspeaking ofthe student She's stating her understanding that she would continue with the investigation but she asked if she could go out and interview the victim, alleged victim at that time, Ms. -who was down the street, and your response to her was, no because at the point of your conversation with her you did not have a victim. Is that conversation consistent or is that testimony consistent with a conversation that you had with Mrs. Horne? MARTIN: It's roughly consistent but the context is different. Page 129 of 181 3469 3470 3471 3472 3473 3474 3475 3476 3477 3478 3479 3480 3481 3482 3483 3484 3485 3486 3487 3488 3489 3490 3491 3492 3493 3494 3495 3496 3497 3498 3499 Roderick Frazier Case No. 12403370? Manatee High School INVESTIGATORI Explain that. MARTIN: It wasn't in the way you asked it. It wasn't a directive not to speak to her. it was the idea that this was one of several allegations that Mr. Rinder had made. One of which was specific so we found out to, (he--z student. However, that was one ofthose that fell into the category of this was something that happened last year, two years ago, I can't remember specifically. But that it had already been addressed by the ad ministration at Manatee high. And because we had a seemingly after she looked into them, unrelated events here, it wasn't that she, wasn't trying to characterize her as a non-victim, she was not actively involved in any recent allegations. yeah, she may have been involved in something administration had already addressed, but there was no reason to interview her because that was done. That was the context. INVESTIGATOR: For purposes of the allegations, would it have mattered in your mind, in your opinion, whether it was an old allegation that had already been handled administratively, if in fact the allegation was one that would be consistent with your responsibilities to contact law enforcement? in other words, does it matter what happened in the past if in your mind, had been considered, or could have been considered a crime? MARTIN: I'm having difficulty following the question but Ithink, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think that you're asking me the mere fact that a lot of time had lapsed. is that itself enough to warrant not calling the police. is that what you're saying? INVESTIGATOR: I'm saying no. what I'm saying is yourexplanation was that this was not something that was new. it was something that had happened in the past and that it was your understanding that the administration had already addressed the issue. MARTIN: it was a closed matter? That's [inaudible] INVESTIGATOR: My question to you is, does that explanation alone negate your responsibility to Contact the police if in fact the allegations are that one of the teachers had inappropriate contact or inappropriate touching of a minor child? MARTIN: No, that in itself, would not be enough. However, because it was something that had been, supposedly already addressed by administration, then I think it's fair for me to be able to Page 130 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 3500 3501 3502 3503 Case No. 12-2033-OP rely on the school administrators to have made the appropriate judgment call at the time, rather than me look back a year later, not knowing anything that had happened, and try and to decide in hindsight whether or not to call the police. I mean that's, that's a judgment call that should have been made by administration at the time. 3504 3505 3506 INVESTIGATOR: But would it have been a judgment call it you had allowed Mrs. Horne the investigator to go out and interview the potential victim? 3507 MARTIN: Would it have been a judgment call? 3508 3509 3510 3511 3512 3513 INVESTIGATOR: You made a judgment call based on interviews by Mrs. Horne but those interviews unfortunately were not interviews of any of the alleged victims. So my question is, do you think that by allowing Mrs. Horne to continue her investigation, she clearly stated in the interview that she wanted to go and interview the victim, or the alleged victim at the time and that you instructed her not to do so. 3514 3515 3516 3517 3518 3519 3520 MARTIN: I don't think it's correct that she wanted to investigate; she wanted to interview the victim. We may have talked about that as an option. If Debbie had said, I want to do that, again I can't imagine I would have cared; go ahead. The idea was that that is a matter that has already been resolved. We were not looking into is Rod Frazier a sexual deviant, in general. We had specific allegations from Mr. Rinder that were proving to be unfounded. So there was no need to go back and look into a matter that had already been addressed per the administration at Manatee high. 3521 3522 3523 3524 INVESTIGATOR: Did you give Mrs. Horne, the investigator, a direct command not to go out and interview an alleged victim because it, in your opinion, was a case that was not a recent case and that in your opinion; the administration had already handled the situation? 3525 3526 3527 MARTIN: I do not recall giving her a specific directive. Again a directive is I'm telling her what to do. I think I probably shared that there was no value in doing that because it was a closed matter. That would be the way it would have gone down. Page 131 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3528 The investigator played a portion of the interview with Mrs. Horne to Mr. Martin and asked: 3529 INVESTIGATOR: Is her statement accurate or is it not accurate? Do you remember that? 3530 3531 3532 3533 3534 MARTIN: Yes. Well it wasn't now you have a victim, and I may have phrased it that way but the difference there was now we've got direct firsthand information that an incident happened, beyond what had already been addressed by the administration at Manatee high. We had new allegations. Now we've got a victim. Now we've got someone that's alleged something that's not already been addressed. 3535 3536 The interview was concluded at this time. Page 132 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3537 Scott Martin Interview: (2 of 2) 3538 August 20, 2013 @ 10:20AM 3539 3540 Troy Pumphrey, Investigator and Scott Martin, Staff Attorney, School District of Manatee County 3541 3542 INVESTIGATOR: You understand we are taping this conversation? 3543 MARTIN: I do. 3544 3545 3546 3547 INVESTIGATOR: I'm going to take you back to November 14th, which was the date that you guys received information about Rod Frazier at Manatee High School. On or about the 15th, you guys sent Debra Horne out to Manatee High School to conducts interviews. Is that right? 3548 MARTIN: I don't know of the exact date; that sounds right, yeah. 3549 3550 3551 3552 3553 3554 3555 3556 INVESTIGATOR: As a result of her going out to Manatee High School on the first day, that first day I believe was the 15th, but let's say the first day she went out. She interviewed a number of people to include Mrs. Peebles, Mr. Gulash, Mr. Rinder, and there may have been others that she interviewed on that day. Once she concluded that interview, she met up with, and you and I talked about this in our first interview. But, once she finished the interviews out in the field, if you will with the teachers and the parent liaisons, she then met with the administrators in a room and at some point in time, called you. Is that right? 3557 MARTIN: Yes, that's correct. 3558 3559 3560 INVESTIGATOR: The last time we talked about who was in that room. Do you have any idea who was in that room now? 3561 3562 MARTIN: I don't remember specifically. It was represented as the administrators of the school. I, we didn't do like a head count, acknowledgement of who all was in the room. Page 133 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3563 3564 INVESTIGATOR: Whether you have direct or indirect knowledge, do you have any idea who else was in that room? Do you know whether the principal was there; Sauer? 3565 MARTIN: I do not recall for certain whether Sauer was there. 3566 INVESTIGATOR: Do you know if Faller was there? 3567 MARTIN: I do not know for sure. 3568 3569 INVESTIGATOR: Kane? 3570 3571 MARTIN: I seem to remember Matt Kane, but there were others. I assume that all of them were there. But I don't know that for sure. I don't remember. 3572 3573 3574 3575 3576 INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember what Debra, well did Debra Horne tell you over the phone that something to the effect that Scott, I've interviewed a number of people here, I have administration with me, here and I'm being told all of this is old news. Did she say something to you to that effect? 3577 MARTIN: That sounds like a nature of our conversation, yeah. 3578 3579 3580 INVESTIGATOR: And at some point you asked her to come back to, back to your office. Is that right? 3581 MARTIN: Yes, I think so. 3582 3583 3584 INVESTIGATOR: When she came back to your office, did you ask her specifically to tell you what her findings were through her interviews? 3585 3586 3587 MARTIN: No. I don't think I specifically asked her that but that would be the general course of what we would always do in an investigation. I think she would just tell me that. That's the purpose for us to talk. Page 134 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3588 3589 INVESTIGATOR: Tell me to the best of your recollection, what was told to you when she came back to your office. 3590 3591 3592 3593 3594 3595 MARTIN: It's difficult to remember our exact conversation, but I think she just went over some of the specifics. The whole discussion that we had is, about each of the people she talked to, what the findings were, kind of wrapped up with the same thing that we just talked about with administration present at Manatee High. And then went into, it was kind of an examination of ok, what do we do next. That was kind of the focus. Have you explored every option that you had? I think like I said before, have you chased every rabbit trail, that sort of thing. 3596 3597 INVESTIGATOR: During that conversation, did she state to you in full or in part that there were victims or alleged victims? 3598 MARTIN: Yes, I believe so. 3599 3600 INVESTIGATOR: Did she tell you who those alleged victims were? 3601 MARTIN: I don't remember that specifically. 3602 3603 3604 INVESTIGATOR: At what point did you have knowledge of the alleged incident between Coach Frazier and the female student sitting on his lap? 3605 3606 MARTIN: It probably was when she was having a conversation over the telephone with Manatee High administration. 3607 3608 3609 INVESTIGATOR: And at that time, she stated that she came to know of this incident where the young lady was either on Coach Frazier's lap or sitting on his knee? 3610 3611 3612 MARTIN: Yeah, and let me go back too, because that may have been one of Steve Rinder's allegations, so I guess that would have technically been the first time. I don't remember but that, if it was, then that would have been the first time that I actually heard about that. Page 135 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3613 3614 3615 INVESTIGATOR: How would you have heard about it? Did you hear about it well; Rinder submitted a letter, if you will, to principal Sauer but that letter had no names. So at some point you came to know names. 3616 MARTIN: Correct. 3617 3618 3619 3620 INVESTIGATOR: How if you remember, what was your first direct knowledge of the situation between Frazier and the female student sitting on his lap? Was it the same day that Debbie Horne came back to your office to talk to you or was it some later date? 3621 3622 MARTIN: If that was one of Rinder's.... Are you asking me specifically about the girls name or the incident itself? 3623 3624 3625 INVESTIGATOR: I'm asking you about the incident. When did you first come to know that there was an incident where a young lady was sitting on the coaches' lap? 3626 3627 3628 3629 MARTIN: If that was one of Rinder's allegations that he wrote down then that would have been the first time that I learned about the incident. And after that it would have been when Debbie followed-up with me after looking into it. I just can't remember if it was one of the things that Rinder had written down specifically. 3630 3631 3632 INVESTIGATOR: But that information would have been given to you on or about the first day that Debbie Horne started her investigation? 3633 MARTIN: Yes. 3634 3635 3636 INVESTIGATOR: Did you have a conversation with Mr. Gagnon regarding the lap incident on that date, which would have been November 15th? 3637 MARTIN: I don't remember if I did or not. Page 136 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3638 3639 INVESTIGATOR: Based on the information, tell me, who made the decision, ultimately to take Mr. Frazier off Paid Administrative Leave? 3640 MARTIN: I did. 3641 3642 INVESTIGATOR: And that decision was based on what? 3643 3644 MARTIN: Based on the fact that we didn't have any evidence, that he currently represented risk of harm to any staff or students. 3645 3646 INVESTIGATOR: That decision was based on what? 3647 3648 MARTIN: That was based on the feedback that Debbie Horne gave me regarding what her findings were. 3649 3650 3651 INVESTIGATOR: Was school still in during that period of time, November 15th? Were the kids still going to school? 3652 MARTIN: Yes. 3653 3654 3655 INVESTIGATOR: So your statement is that you did not feel that Mr. Frazier would have been an immediate threat to whom? 3656 MARTIN: Staff or students. That's the standard for. 3657 3658 3659 INVESTIGATOR: Tell me again why you felt that he would not have been a threat to staff or students at that time? 3660 3661 3662 MARTIN: Based on Debbie Horne's findings. Each rabbit trail that she chased ended in something that had been either occurred a long time ago and had already been resolved or something that dead ended in rumor or innuendo. Page 137 of 181 3663 3664 3665 3666 3667 3668 3669 3670 3671 3672 3673 3674 3675 3676 3677 3678 3679 3680 3681 3682 3683 3684 3685 3686 3687 3688 3685 3690 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School case No. 12403370? INVESTIGATORZ How did you come to the conclusion that It was Old or that It was based on rumor or innuendo? MARTIN: Based on the feedback that she gave me from her findings. INVESTIGATOR: Tell me specifically what that information was with regards to the female on Frazier's lap. Her name Il me, you made a decision to place Frazier back to work on the day, the The first day of the investigation, Horne gave you information that she had discovered through her interviews. One of what she gave you was the situation between Frazier and a female student, -- sitting on his lap. MARTIN: That's correct. INVESTIGATOR: Tell me after hearing that information why you would put Frazier back on, taken him back off paid administrative leave, and felt there was no immediate threat to any other students or staff at that time? MARTIN: Because that Incident had OCCU rred some time ago. That was something that was resolved by administration or at least that was represented to me. As I understood the females, I don't know if I knew at that exact paint, but that female student was going to Palmetto high school. So all those factors, including the fact that on the other rabbit trail that Debbie had chased, it ended in rumor and innuendo. It didn't seem that there was any immediate threat to students or staff. INVESTIGATOR: at that time, how did you know that this situation was old and had already been dealt with by administration? MARTIN: It had been told to me by Debbie Horne. INVESTIGATOR: she told you it had been dealt with by administration? MARTIN: Yes. Page 138 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3691 3692 INVESTIGATOR: Did you speak with anyone else about this incident on the 15th of November, which was the first day that she started interviewing? 3693 MARTIN: I don't believe so. 3694 3695 3696 INVESTIGATOR: Once you concluded your meeting with Debbie Horne, in the evening of the 15th, at some point and time, a decision was made to place Frazier back to work? 3697 MARTIN: Yes. 3698 3699 3700 3701 INVESTIGATOR: Did you make that decision solely based on the information you received from Debbie Horne or was there some other chain of command there. Did you speak with someone else to run it past someone else? How was that decision made? 3702 MARTIN: No, that was solely my decision. 3703 3704 INVESTIGATOR: So you alone made the decision to place him back to work? 3705 MARTIN: Correct. 3706 3707 3708 INVESTIGATOR: Once he was placed back to work, then what happened? Was the investigation over at that point or not? 3709 MARTIN: No, it was not concluded. 3710 3711 INVESTIGATOR: It was not concluded; and what determined that it was not concluded? 3712 MARTIN: What determined that it was not concluded? Page 139 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3713 INVESTIGATOR: Yeah, why do say it wasn't concluded? 3714 3715 MARTIN: Debbie still had to write a report, she still had to speak with Mr. Frazier. There were other avenues possibly for her to take after speaking with him. I suppose. 3716 3717 3718 3719 3720 INVESTIGATOR: Just a few minutes ago, you stated to me that, in the first interview, you stated to me that you spoke with Debbie, you specifically asked her, did you chase every rabbit trail, did you pull every thread. In other words, did you do a full and complete investigation? Is that right, is that my understanding? 3721 3722 MARTIN: That's correct. Well, not a full and complete. It was not complete. The investigation was not closed at that point. 3723 3724 INVESTIGATOR: So the investigation was not complete? 3725 3726 3727 MARTIN: Correct. It was not; did you do a full and complete investigation? And based on the information that we had and the allegations had she gone and chased every rabbit trail that had been provided to her. 3728 INVESTIGATOR: And are you convinced that she did? 3729 MARTIN: I've never known her to do otherwise, so yes. 3730 3731 3732 INVESTIGATOR: Well did you review her notes or did you review her recorded interviews on that date, on the 15th, prior to making a decision to bring Frazier back to work? 3733 MARTIN: No, that would not be standard practice. 3734 3735 INVESTIGATOR: Standard practice? Does standard practice always dictate that right practice? 3736 MARTIN: I would hope so yes. Page 140 of 181 3737 3738 3739 3740 3741 3742 3743 3744 3745 3746 3747 3748 3749 3750 3751 3752 3753 3754 3755 3756 3757 3758 3759 3760 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12403370? INVESTIGATOR: So you would make a decision to bring back Frazier In this case, solely based on your conversations with Horne, without reviewing her notes or sharing her recorded interviews? MARTIN: correct. Itrust that my administrator did herjab. INVESTIGATOR: Did yuu have knowledge at that point that she did not interview Mr. Frazier? MARTIN: 'les, I believe so. INVESTIGATOR: Did you have knowledge during that time that you made the decision to bring Frazier back to work, that she also did not interview Mrs. MARTIN: I don't knuw. I'm not Sure who MS. is. INVESTIGATOR: Did you have knowledge that she did not interview-, who was alleged victim? MARTIN: I knew that she did not Interview any students. INVESTIGATOR: But yet in your mind, you felt that she did a, well, she chased every rabbit traii? MARTIN: Correct. INVESTIGATOR: she pulled every thread? MARTIN: Yes. INVESTIGATOR: In your mind? MARTIN: Yes. Page 141 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3761 3762 INVESTIGATOR: Based on the information that she obtained on November 15th, which was the first day of her interviews? 3763 MARTIN: Yes. 3764 3765 3766 3767 INVESTIGATOR: Again, you believe well, my questions was, is that the end of the investigation? Was the investigation, at that point, concluded? And in your mind it was not concluded because why? 3768 3769 MARTIN: The conclusion of an investigation is when the report is complete and it's delivered to the employee, the case formally closed. It was not done. 3770 3771 3772 INVESTIGATOR: Besides having to write the report and submit the report to your office, was the investigators fieldwork completed? 3773 MARTIN: No. As I said, I knew she still had to speak to Mr. Frazier. 3774 3775 3776 INVESTIGATOR: So, there was nothing that Mr. Frazier could tell her that may have, that may dictate that you may need to keep him on paid administrative leave? 3777 3778 MARTIN: Not based on the evidence that we had at that point, absent him throwing out a complete confession in spite of everything. 3779 3780 INVESTIGATOR: Did you know what Mr. Frazier would say? 3781 MARTIN: No. 3782 3783 INVESTIGATOR: And so you made an assumption of what Mr. Frazier would say? 3784 MARTIN: Based on past experiences, yes. Page 142 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 3785 INVESTIGATOR: Based on past experiences of Mr. Frazier? 3786 Case No. 12-2033-OP MARTIN: No. Other employees work place investigations. 3787 3788 INVESTIGATOR: So every investigation is the same? 3789 MARTIN: No. 3790 3791 INVESTIGATOR: Each investigation is different? 3792 MARTIN: Yes. 3793 3794 3795 INVESTIGATOR: But you're determining whether in fact to place him back on paid leave, is consistent with other investigations that you've experienced in the past? 3796 MARTIN: Yes. 3797 3798 3799 3800 INVESTIGATOR: How many others of those investigations do you recall if there were any other investigations where someone was places on and off paid leave in a day? Actually it was less than a day. 3801 MARTIN: I don't recall. 3802 3803 3804 3805 3806 INVESTIGATOR: And if I told you I've gone through all the paid administrative leave cases; Debra Horne states that she's done over 800 investigations, of course there not 800 investigations that require paid leave. If I told you there was only one investigation out of all the paid leave investigations that have been conducted in the Office of Professional Standards where someone was placed on and off in a day, would that be of some concern to you? 3807 MARTIN: Concern to me, no. Page 143 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3808 3809 INVESTIGATOR: Who made the decision not to interview Frazier on the first day, prior to bringing him back to work? 3810 MARTIN: I don't know. 3811 3812 3813 INVESTIGATOR: Do you know whether Debbie Horne interviewed any of the victims, prior to placing Frazier back to work? 3814 MARTIN: I don't believe she did. 3815 3816 3817 INVESTIGATOR: Was that something that you think is important in order to understand the dynamics of a case of this magnitude? 3818 MARTIN: Every case is different; it depends. 3819 3820 3821 3822 3823 INVESTIGATOR: This case. We're not talking about every case; this case here. Do you believe the dynamics of this case, the dynamics as you knew it on the 14th and 15th, dictated that you needed to interview the victims or the accused, the alleged accused, Mr. Frazier, prior to placing him back to work? 3824 MARTIN: No. 3825 3826 INVESTIGATOR: Why? 3827 3828 3829 3830 MARTIN: Again, based on the evidence that we had the allegations and the fact that the only one I believe had any merit was acknowledged by Manatee Administration. It's something they knew about and dealt with. Again, there was no evidence that there was any risk of harm to staff or students in returning Mr. Frazier at that time. 3831 3832 3833 INVESTIGATOR: Debbie Horne interview Peebles. Yes or no, prior to you making that decision to place him back to work? 3834 MARTIN: I believe that's correct. Page 144 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 3835 INVESTIGATOR: She interviewed Mr. Gulash? 3836 Case No. 12-2033-OP MARTIN: I believe that's correct. 3837 3838 INVESTIGATOR: She interviewed Mr. Rinder? 3839 MARTIN: I believe that's correct. 3840 3841 3842 INVESTIGATOR: During those interviews she at least knew that Mrs. Peebles had witnessed Mr. Frazier with a young lady on his lap; is that true? 3843 MARTIN: Yes, I believe it was Peebles. 3844 3845 3846 3847 INVESTIGATOR: She also knew on that day that, of at least one of the two incidents, where there was a bottle shoved between a young lady's legs, allegedly by Frazier. She knew about that, prior to you making a decision. Is that right? 3848 MARTIN: I remember something about that, correct. 3849 3850 3851 3852 3853 3854 INVESTIGATOR: And did you personally speak with any of the administrators to confirm or deny or to confirm that they had previously dealt with the Frazier incidents in the past. And that they were in fact old or did you trust Debbie Horne's statement to you that she had spoken with the administrators and the administrator's statements were that these were issues; that were old issues? 3855 MARTIN: I think it was a combination of both. 3856 3857 INVESTIGATOR: Who'd you speak with? 3858 MARTIN: I mean it was the fact that Debbie told me that. Page 145 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 3859 INVESTIGATOR: Who'd you speak with? Did you speak with anyone? 3860 Case No. 12-2033-OP MARTIN: The telephone conversation that I was a part of. 3861 3862 INVESTIGATOR: With whom? 3863 MARTIN: With Debbie Horne and Manatee Administration. 3864 3865 INVESTIGATOR: Who were the Administrators that you talked to? 3866 MARTIN: The ones that I assumed were present. 3867 3868 INVESTIGATOR: Who did you hear? 3869 MARTIN: I don't specifically remember. 3870 3871 3872 3873 INVESTIGATOR: So you heard a male's voice, but you have no idea who the males were. But the unidentified people you heard stated to you, or led you to believe that these incidents were old and they had already been taken care of? 3874 3875 3876 MARTIN: I don't recall if they explicitly said it; I know Debbie described it to me in that fashion with, again assuming there were others present. If she said something that was incorrect, I would hope someone would intervene and say that's not true. 3877 3878 3879 3880 3881 3882 INVESTIGATOR: You're confusing me now. Just a second ago you said that, I asked you if you spoke with any of the administrators at the school or did you trust Debbie Horne's statement that she spoke with them and you said both. Then I asked you who you spoke with. You can't tell me who you spoke with but you remember, were they males were they female's? Were they both, male and female that you spoke with? 3883 3884 3885 MARTIN: I don't recall. I remember having the conversation; I remember assuming that it was Manatee Administration because Debbie said that that's who they were. Aside from that, I don't recall. Page 146 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3886 3887 INVESTIGATOR: Do you recall speaking with Bob Gagnon, on that day regarding the incident with Frazier and the young lady on his lap? 3888 3889 MARTIN: I don't recall that; maybe I did, I don't recall. I think I had a conversation with Bob before that, not afterward. 3890 3891 3892 3893 INVESTIGATOR: When was that? Well beforehand would have been on that day or the day before? See the investigation started on the 14th. I'm sorry you received the information on the 14th. The 15th was the first day that Debbie Horne went out to the investigation. 3894 MARTIN: Oh, I see. 3895 3896 INVESTIGATOR: So when would you have talked to Bob Gagnon? 3897 MARTIN: It may have been the 14th. 3898 3899 3900 INVESTIGATOR: On the 14th? And on the 14th, did Bob Gagnon tell you about the incident with the girl on Frazier's lap? 3901 MARTIN: Oh no. 3902 3903 INVESTIGATOR: What did Bob Gagnon tell you on the 14th? 3904 3905 3906 3907 3908 MARTIN: The conversation I had with Bob was about the; what's going on with this Frazier guy, what's the deal? And that's the conversation. You and I have talked about this before, where Bob told me look, this guy's been plagued by rumors, it broke up his marriage and if you find something on this guy, bury him under the school, but if you don't the rumor mill is just gonna grow and grow and grow. Page 147 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3909 INVESTIGATOR: Did Gagnon tell you that the incidents, alleged were old? 3910 3911 3912 MARTIN: No. The only incident that Bob mentioned was something about Frazier driving around in golf carts with girls. And that may have been one of Rinder's allegations, I can't remember. 3913 3914 3915 INVESTIGATOR: But you never talked to Gagnon about the lap incident; the young lady on Frazier's lap? 3916 MARTIN: I don't recall that. 3917 3918 3919 INVESTIGATOR: Then if you don't recall that then you obviously don't recall Gagnon stating to you that it may have been old. That it was old and it had already been dealt with? 3920 MARTIN: No. I don't remember that at all. 3921 3922 3923 INVESTIGATOR: And make me understand again, was the investigation concluded on the 15th or the 16th of November or not. 3924 MARTIN: No. 3925 3926 3927 INVESTIGATOR: Other than submitting a report, writing a report and submitting it to you, was there other work that needed to be done on or after November 16th in your mind? 3928 MARTIN: She had to speak to Mr. Frazier. 3929 3930 3931 INVESTIGATOR: Other than speaking to Mr. Frazier, was the investigation in your mind concluded? 3932 3933 MARTIN: Based on, unless anything else developed, again, I wasn't the investigator, that's up to Debbie. Page 148 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 3934 3935 3936 INVESTIGATOR: Well that's another issue. You weren't the investigator but Mrs. Horne is being directed by you in her statements. In other words, Mrs. Horne is conferring with you as to what her next move should be. 3937 MARTIN: Yes. 3938 3939 3940 3941 INVESTIGATOR: So do your investigators, prior to Mrs. Horne's transfer, did Mrs. Horne have the ability to fully and thoroughly, with full autonomy investigate the issues that were brought to the Office of Professional Standards? Did she have that ability? 3942 3943 MARTIN: No, I'm her direct supervisor. She's subject to supervisions and no she doesn't have direct, she doesn't have full autonomy. 3944 3945 3946 INVESTIGATOR: She doesn't have full autonomy with regards to how to perform her investigations? 3947 MARTIN: As a matter of practice, yes. 3948 3949 INVESTIGATOR: She's the investigator? 3950 MARTIN: Yes. 3951 3952 3953 INVESTIGATOR: Can she go out and perform to the best of her abilities a full and complete investigation without influence from you? 3954 MARTIN: I would expect her to. 3955 3956 INVESTIGATOR: Then how come she couldn't do it this time? 3957 3958 3959 MARTIN: It's not a matter of influence, it is a standard practice in any investigation that we conduct for Debbie to come back, share information with me, bounce off ideas. That's standard practice. Page 149 of 181 3960 3961 3962 3953 3964 3965 3966 3967 3968 3969 3970 3971 3972 3973 3974 3975 3976 3977 3978 3979 3980 3981 3982 3983 3984 3985 3986 Roderick Frazier Case No. 12403370? Manatee High school INVESTIGATOR: Did you tell her not to go back out and complete her investigation? MARTIN: No. INVESTIGATOR: You never told her that? MARTIN: I never told her in the way you're describing it. INVESTIGATOR: Describe it in your way so I understand. MARTIN: Sure. It was a give and take conversation between me and Debbie that we often do in any investigation; is there anything else? is there anything else; is there something else that we need to do? And she had asked should she go speak with I remember that. And I said ldid not see any value in it since that's something that had already been dealt with by Manatee High Administration. That was not a directive to end her investigation. That was a collaborative (inaudible). INVESTIGATOR: Who told you that it had been dealt with? MARTIN: Debbie Horne and again I assumed Manatee High Administration, when we were talking on the phone. INVESTIGATOR: so you have allegationsthat a young lady's on Coach Frazier's lap; you have allegations of a bottle being shoved in between young lad'/s legs. Vou have other allegations as well but dealing with the same young lady, but you felt that it was not necessary in order to conclude your investigation at that time, to interview the student. is that right? MARTIN: I don't remember allegations with the same young lady. INVESTIGATOR: The a||egatian's with the bottle was with the same young lady as the allegations with her sitting on the coaches lap; same young lady. MARTIN: I don't recall that. Page 150 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 3987 INVESTIGATOR: You've made statements that you knew about that incident. 3988 Case No. 12-2033-OP MARTIN: Yes, I knew about the incident. 3989 3990 INVESTIGATOR: But you didn't acknowledge that it was the same young lady? 3991 MARTIN: I don't recall that, no. 3992 3993 3994 INVESTIGATOR: But the decision to place him back to work was made based on your opinion that he was not, or no longer a threat to students and/or adults at Manatee High School? 3995 MARTIN: Correct. 3996 3997 INVESTIGATOR: When did Mrs. Horne leave the Office of Professional Standards? 3998 MARTIN: I don't remember specifically. That will be firmly indicated by her file, I'm sure. 3999 4000 INVESTIGATOR: Do you know what the circumstances where? Why did she leave? 4001 4002 MARTIN: She left as a result of Dr. David Gayler, who was Superintendent at the time; strongly advising her that she should request a transfer. 4003 4004 INVESTIGATOR: Strongly advised her to request a transfer, why? 4005 4006 4007 MARTIN: Because the Office of Professional Standards was under fire and my own summary of it was that he kind of felt that she was being unfairly targeted and that she was a good administrator and that it would be in her best interest to request a transfer. 4008 4009 4010 INVESTIGATOR: Did you sit in on that conversation between Dr.? Well, let me ask you? What was his name? 4011 MARTIN: Dr. David Gayler. Page 151 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 4012 INVESTIGATOR: Dr. Gayler. Did Dr. Gayler relay that information to you? 4013 Case No. 12-2033-OP MARTIN: Yes. 4014 4015 INVESTIGATOR: Do you know where that took place? 4016 MARTIN: In the Superintendent's office. 4017 4018 4019 INVESTIGATOR: As a result of that, what did you do? As a result of that conversation, well tell me about that conversation with Dr. Gayler. Tell me specifically about that conversation. 4020 MARTIN: I think I had multiple conversations with Dr. Gayler around that topic. 4021 4022 4023 INVESTIGATOR: Let's focus on the one that took place during the week that she left. That would be Monday, January 21st. I'm sorry, Friday. 4024 MARTIN: I don't remember anything about the date. 4025 4026 INVESTIGATOR: Tell be about the conversation between you and Dr. Gayler. 4027 4028 4029 4030 4031 4032 MARTIN: Ultimately I know I had at least one conversation with Debbie present. And again, the conversation was along those same lines that Dr. Gayler felt that Debbie ultimately would, if she was still high profile in the Office of Professional Standards, that she would continue to get attacked from the union, from potentially certain Board members who would be sympathetic to the union and ultimately her contract would be non-renewed based on this rising ill sentiment and it would be a good idea for her to request a transfer. 4033 4034 INVESTIGATOR: Was this based on any one incident? 4035 MARTIN: No. Page 152 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 4036 4037 INVESTIGATOR: And was there any one incident that showed itself, that triggered the actions of that week January 21st through January 25th? 4038 4039 4040 4041 MARTIN: I don't remember anything specific except I remember there was a board meeting where AFSCME Union members spoke out about the unfairness of the investigations. And I know that was kind of a catalyst for that. I don't know when that occurred exactly. I don't remember. 4042 4043 4044 4045 INVESTIGATOR: Was there a meeting between you, Mrs. Horne and Dr. Gayler or was there a meeting? Who suggested to Debbie Horne that she be relocated away from the Office of Professional Standards? 4046 MARTIN: Dr. Gayler. 4047 4048 INVESTIGATOR: Did he have that conversation with her? 4049 4050 MARTIN: He had that conversation with her in my presence, but he and I had several conversations about that prior too. 4051 4052 4053 4054 INVESTIGATOR: During that conversation between you, Dr. Gayler and Debbie Horne, was there a determination made or a conclusion made that she would be leaving the Office of Professional Standards? 4055 4056 MARTIN: Yeah, I believe she turned in her request at that time or shortly thereafter; along within maybe a day. Or minutes, I can't recall. 4057 4058 INVESTIGATOR: Whose idea was it to go to Prine Elementary? 4059 4060 MARTIN: I don't know if it was anyone's idea. I think that was the only Assistant Principal slot open at the time. That was more like an H.R. decision as rather than someone selecting that. Page 153 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 4061 4062 INVESTIGATOR: You had a number of conversations with Dr. Gayler; in at least one of those conversations, regarding the image of the Office of Professional Standards. Is that right? 4063 MARTIN: Yes. That's fair. 4064 4065 4066 INVESTIGATOR: And as a result of that on at least one those occasions, you, Dr. Gayler and Debbie Horne got together to meet about her being relocated to another school. Is that right? 4067 MARTIN: Taking another position, yes. 4068 4069 4070 INVESTIGATOR: And there was no one single incident that may have sparked the need for her to leave the Office of Professional Standards? 4071 4072 MARTIN: Aside from what I mentioned about the statement before the Board by the AFSCME Union members, no I don't recall anything specific. 4073 4074 4075 4076 INVESTIGATOR: I'm asking you to consider January 21st; through January 25th is the window of time that I'm focusing on now. January 25th, was the date, Debbie Horne's actual last day at the Office of Professional Standards, ok? 4077 MARTIN: Ok. 4078 4079 4080 INVESTIGATOR: On that Monday, you had a meeting in Debbie Horne's office with you, Debbie Horne, Mike Horne and John Bowen. Do you remember that meeting? 4081 MARTIN: Vaguely, yes. 4082 4083 INVESTIGATOR: What do you remember about it, vaguely? 4084 MARTIN: I think we're talking about the circumstances of Debbie requesting a transfer. 4085 INVESTIGATOR: What were those circumstances? Page 154 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 4086 4087 Case No. 12-2033-OP MARTIN: Again, what I just described. This is something that would be in Debbie's best interest. This is something that Dr. Gayler would support. 4088 4089 INVESTIGATOR: Was this before or after you meeting with you, Dr. Gayler and Debbie? 4090 MARTIN: I don't remember. 4091 4092 4093 INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember John, I'm sorry, Mike Horne being at that meeting; Debbie's husband? 4094 MARTIN: Vaguely, yeah. I think so. 4095 4096 INVESTIGATOR: And you don't remember the reasons for that meeting? 4097 MARTIN: No, again other than Debbie requesting a transfer; that whole thing. 4098 4099 Its 11:00 o'clock on August 20th and we have just concluded this interview. Page 155 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 4100 Donald Sauer Interview: 4101 August 12, 2013 4102 Troy Pumphrey, Investigator and Don Sauer, Principal at Manatee High School 4103 4104 INVESTIGATOR: Don you're aware that you're being taped? 4105 SAUER: Yes. 4106 4107 4108 4109 4110 4111 INVESTIGATOR: November 15th, was the date that Debra Horne came out to Manatee High School to conduct her initial investigation regarding Rod Frazier allegations. Specifically Debbie Horne interviewed a number of teachers and other adults and at the end of her interviews that day; she met with you and other administrators in your conference room. Does that spark your recollection? 4112 4113 SAUER: She met after calling us in, she met in my office. It wasn't a conference room, it was my office. And the Administrator that I know that was there was Matt Kane. 4114 4115 4116 INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember any other administrators, any other people being in that room? 4117 SAUER: I do not. 4118 4119 INVESTIGATOR: Was your secretary in that room? 4120 SAUER: I do not believe so, no. 4121 4122 INVESTIGATOR: Was Mr. Faller in that room? 4123 SAUER: I do not recall if Mr. Faller was in there. Page 156 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 4124 INVESTIGATOR: What was the meeting about with Debbie? 4125 4126 4127 4128 4129 4130 SAUER: She called us in and had said she had talked to teachers on this information that I had provided to the District. She said she wanted to call Mr. Martin, wanted to call the District, I believe what she said. And she made that call. I had been sitting on a couch that was away from the conference table. It was very informal. She sat that the table and she went, talked about what she went through with her interviews with Mr. Martin and then she hung up the phone and she said, "I'm going to leave. I will be back in touch." 4131 4132 4133 4134 4135 INVESTIGATOR: During her conversation with Mr. Martin, do you recall Debbie Horne stating something along with lines of Scott; I have interviewed six or seven teachers. I have Administration here with me in the room and I'm being told that there's nothing new here and that anything old has already been addressed? Do you remember that? 4136 SAUER: I do not remember that specifically, no. 4137 4138 4139 INVESTIGATOR: If in fact Debbie Horne did make that statement to Scott Martin, would that have been the truth? 4140 4141 4142 SAUER: I don't know. I don't remember that statement being made. So I don't know if she said it, if she didn't say it, or who would have said that. I did not say that this was old and that it was taken care of. 4143 4144 4145 4146 4147 4148 INVESTIGATOR: Do you remember whether Mr. Kane stated to Debbie Horne, prior to making a phone call to Scott Martin, while in that room that all the allegations that she had obtained, that day, as a result of her interview with the five or six or seven teachers. Do you remember Debbie Horne asking Matt Kane if he had any information on first of all, let's start there. Did she ask Matt Kane to provide her with any information regarding the allegations? 4149 SAUER: I do not recall that conversation. Page 157 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 4150 4151 INVESTIGATOR: Do you recall whether Debbie had a conversation with Matt Kane prior to calling Scott Martin where she asked if this was new information or old information? 4152 4153 4154 4155 4156 SAUER: No. It was just information. The only thing that I recall was that she said that she had talked to the teachers and that she was going to call the District and let them know what she found. I do not remember the conversation before. She talked to Mr. Martin very briefly, said that she was gonna be going down to the District and would be getting back in touch. That is what I remember of that conversation. 4157 4158 4159 INVESTIGATOR: You don't remember Debbie Horne asking you and or Matt Kane if this information was accurate, if it was new information or if it was old information? 4160 4161 4162 4163 SAUER: That is correct. And I know for a fact that nobody has ever asked me if this was old or new. You said she asked me and I can tell you point blankly, no. I do not remember her asking Matt that. That was not something that I was taking notes on or anything like that. That does not ring a bell to me. 4164 4165 4166 INVESTIGATOR: Tell me about your relationship with Matt Kane. Did you know Matt Kane prior to coming to Manatee High School? 4167 4168 4169 SAUER: Yes I did. He was a teacher at Lakewood Ranch. He had a couple periods off where he helped in discipline when I was in charge of discipline for one year. He then left Lakewood Ranch and was hired at Manatee High School. 4170 4171 INVESTIGATOR: What was your position at the time that he was at Lakewood Ranch? 4172 SAUER: At that time when he was there, it was my first year as an administrator of discipline. 4173 4174 INVESTIGATOR: You were an Assistant Principal? 4175 SAUER: Yes. Page 158 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 4176 INVESTIGATOR: Did you know Matt Kane prior to that period of time? 4177 4178 SAUER: Yes, he was a teacher or sub. I was a teacher as well at Lakewood Ranch. He was a student at Southeast High School; my first two years at Southeast High School. 4179 4180 4181 INVESTIGATOR: He was a student at Southeast High School and you were a teacher at Southeast High School? 4182 SAUER: Yes. 4183 4184 4185 4186 INVESTIGATOR: Do you have a personal relationship with Matt Kane? Do you see Matt Kane outside of, well let's see Matt Kane was at Manatee High School until what date? Do you remember? 4187 4188 4189 SAUER: He got moved right after the July 4th holiday of this year. I want to say, whatever day that we came back from the break. I believe which is our vacation of 2013. He was moved over to Southeast High School. 4190 4191 INVESTIGATOR: And what date did you arrive at Manatee High School? 4192 SAUER: I arrived at Manatee High School in July of 2012. 4193 4194 INVESTIGATOR: Your relationship with Matt Kane, describe that for me. 4195 4196 4197 4198 SAUER: Very professional. We did not do many things outside of school together. We did go to ball games, football games. He did come to my 50th birthday party that my wife threw. That was in Orlando in January. Other than that we did not do anything socially. We did not go out or go to each other's homes. He helped me move a couch one day at my house. 4199 4200 4201 INVESTIGATOR: What other Administrators from Manatee High School were invited to your 50th birthday party? 4202 SAUER: All Administrators plus my Senior School Secretary. Page 159 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 4203 INVESTIGATOR: And did they all come to your party? 4204 Case No. 12-2033-OP SAUER: Yes. 4205 4206 4207 4208 INVESTIGATOR: Other than the party, your 50th party in Orlando, and moving your furniture, your sofa, and traveling to football games, have you spent any other time with Matt Kane outside of school? 4209 SAUER: No. 4210 4211 INVESTIGATOR: How about Mr. Faller? What is your relationship with Faller? 4212 4213 4214 4215 4216 SAUER: Very professional. He did not come and I'm mistaken. Not all the Administrators came. He did not come to my 50th. Something had come up; I don't know if he got sick or his wife got sick, but he was not there. But other than that I've been to Mr. Faller's house once, maybe twice in the time that I've known him. He was a Parent Liaison out at Lakewood Ranch before he was at Manatee for one semester, and I knew him there. 4217 4218 INVESTIGATOR: What were the circumstances that you were at his house? 4219 4220 SAUER: I want to say at Lakewood Ranch, it was a get together with other coaches. I coach football at Lakewood Ranch as well and it was a get together for that I believe. 4221 4222 INVESTIGATOR: Did you know Mr. Faller prior to your working at Lakewood Ranch? 4223 SAUER: No. 4224 4225 INVESTIGATOR: Tell me about your relationship with Mr. Gagnon. 4226 4227 SAUER: Mr. Gagnon was an Assistant Principal at Lakewood Ranch when I was a Technology Specialist. I went from my Technology Specialist to being hired as the Assistant Principal in Page 160 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 4228 4229 Case No. 12-2033-OP charge of Discipline. He was there for one year and then moved to Palmetto high school and then he left and professionally that's where our paths ended. 4230 4231 INVESTIGATOR: Do you socialize with Mr. Gagnon outside school? 4232 SAUER: I have. His wife and my wife are friends. I'm a friend with his wife as well. 4233 4234 4235 INVESTIGATOR: Tell me the last time you've socialized outside of the work environment with Mr. Gagnon? 4236 SAUER: I want to say it was my 50th birthday party in January. 4237 4238 INVESTIGATOR: And you have not seen Mr. Gagnon outside of school since? 4239 4240 4241 SAUER: I won't say that because I watch his dogs, they watch my dog. There may have been a time where they came and picked up the dog or I went over there and picked up my dog, if we were gone. 4242 4243 INVESTIGATOR: And you guys live in the same neighborhood? 4244 SAUER: We live within two miles of each other. 4245 4246 INVESTIGATOR: How about Mr. Faller? Do you socialize with Mr. Faller outside of school? 4247 SAUER: No. 4248 4249 INVESTIGATOR: And then again Mr. Kane? 4250 SAUER: No. 4251 4252 INVESTIGATOR: You don't socialize with Mr. Kane outside of school? Page 161 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 4253 Case No. 12-2033-OP SAUER: No. 4254 4255 4256 INVESTIGATOR: It's my understanding; you don't socialize with Mr. Kane, Mr. Faller or Mr. Gagnon outside of school. 4257 4258 4259 4260 SAUER: On a consistent basis like I said, they were at my 50th birthday party that was social. I have been to Mr. Gagnon's house prior, but the last time was in I believe in January. I have been to his house before for a social gathering with my wife. It is probably a handful of times that I've been to his house. He has been to my house probably a handful of times as well. 4261 4262 INVESTIGATOR: And the last time was? 4263 SAUER: I believe it was January of 2013. 4264 4265 INVESTIGATOR: How about Mrs. Gagnon? 4266 4267 SAUER: Same. She was with Mr. Gagnon so it would have been the same as what I've said for Mr. Gagnon. 4268 4269 INVESTIGATOR: So you would not have seen her after January? 4270 SAUER: No. 4271 4272 INVESTIGATOR: How about Mrs. Kane? 4273 SAUER: It would be the same as Mr. Kane. 4274 4275 INVESTIGATOR: And how about Mrs. Faller? 4276 SAUER: Same thing with Mr. Faller. Page 162 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12-2033-OP 4277 INVESTIGATOR: Tell me about your secretary. 4278 4279 4280 4281 SAUER: She was invited, Ms. Perez. She was invited to my 50th birthday party. My wife had invited that group of Administrators that when I first got there that's who surrounded me to get me acclimated to Manatee High School. So she invited those people there. That would be the only time that I have socialized; a football game. 4282 4283 INVESTIGATOR: And you don't socialize, other than the 50th anniversary, 50th birthday party? 4284 SAUER: Right. 4285 4286 INVESTIGATOR: What's your secretary's name? 4287 SAUER: Loyda Perez 4288 4289 4290 INVESTIGATOR: And you have not socialized with Ms. Perez outside of football events and your 50th? 4291 SAUER: Yeah. 4292 4293 INVESTIGATOR: You haven't seen her outside of school since then? 4294 SAUER: Yeah. 4295 4296 4297 INVESTIGATOR: What is your Assistant's Secretary's name? What is Ms. Perez' Assistants name? 4298 4299 SAUER: I think I know where you're going with this. It is the secretary that I hired for out front for the staff and that would be Beth Harmounth. Page 163 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 4300 INVESTIGATOR: Beth Harmounth? Is she related to Mrs. Perez? 4301 Case No. 12-2033-OP SAUER: No. 4302 4303 INVESTIGATOR: How did you come to know Beth Harmounth? 4304 4305 4306 SAUER: Beth Harmounth was a student at Lakewood Ranch High School. She worked in the OJT or On the Job Training program. She helped Mrs. Gagnon through her job with the OJT program. We had a secretary opening and she applied for it and I hired her. 4307 4308 INVESTIGATOR: Is she also employed by the Gagnon's personally? 4309 SAUER: I do not know that. 4310 4311 INVESTIGATOR: Had you ever heard that she may be Mr. and Mrs. Gagnon's nanny? 4312 SAUER: I heard that from Mr. Mills. 4313 4314 INVESTIGATOR: And you hadn't heard that from anyone else? 4315 SAUER: No. 4316 4317 INVESTIGATOR: Do you socialize with Beth Harmounth? 4318 SAUER: Never. 4319 4320 INVESTIGATOR: Never outside of school? 4321 SAUER: Never. 4322 4323 INVESTIGATOR: Tell me your relationship with Debra Horne. Page 164 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 4324 4325 4326 4327 4328 Case No. 12-2033-OP SAUER: Strictly professional; have never been social with Debbie Horne. She has been to Lakewood Ranch High School investigating allegations against a staff member while I was an Assistant Principal there. I offered my office to her and she used my office to investigate. She filled the principal, Linda Nesselhauf and myself in on what she found. And that would be the extent of my relationship with Mrs. Horne. 4329 4330 INVESTIGATOR: How about her husband, Mike Horne. Do you know Mike? 4331 4332 4333 4334 4335 4336 SAUER: I knew Mr. Horne as a Principal. I knew him as a football coach first of all when I was a football coach. He was an A.P. (Assistant Principal) during some of the summer schools I believe I taught at when I was a teacher. And then he left and went to Southeast High School the year I left Southeast and went to Lakewood Ranch. So we had no real connectivity other than the fact than I knew of him. And he came to Southeast High School the year I left Southeast High School. And that's my extent of Mr. Horne. 4337 4338 INVESTIGATOR: Have you interacted with Mr. Horne; Mike Horne socially? 4339 4340 4341 4342 SAUER: I have; on a few different occasion where I have gone to a retirement party. One that was just recent was in June; Bob Thomas from Southeast High School retired. Mr. Horne was there. I did talk to him. It was very social. Nothing other than hey how are you and nice to see you. 4343 4344 INVESTIGATOR: Did you talk about this case at all? 4345 4346 SAUER: He did start to talk about it and I said, Mike I've got to leave. And so I went and found my wife. 4347 4348 INVESTIGATOR: Tell me about your relationship with Tony Losada. 4349 4350 4351 SAUER: Losada? He was a student at Southeast High School when I was a teacher he was a again probably the first two years I was there, maybe three years I was there. Tony left got his degree, came back in the District; taught, was an A.P, at Braden River Middle. I had a position Page 165 of 181 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School 4352 4353 Case No. 12-2033-OP open up last year, right after I took my job. I had an A.P. position and I interviewed people. I hired him as an A.P. and he is still at Manatee High School. 4354 4355 INVESTIGATOR: Do you socialize with Losada on a personal basis? 4356 4357 4358 SAUER: Same thing as with the Fallers, the Kane's and them. We have gotten together socially before a football game and we have, he came to my 50th birthday party. And there was one other time that he has come to my house where he helped me trim a tree. 4359 4360 INVESTIGATOR: When would that be? 4361 SAUER: I want to say it was in the fall of last year of 2012. 4362 4363 INVESTIGATOR: And your 50th birthday party was when? 4364 4365 4366 4367 4368 4369 SAUER: January 19, 2013. We were in Orlando and I've got to throw it out there. My wife surprised me in Orlando and I thought that was my birthday party. The following week she threw another birthday party for all of my friends from Southeast High School, Lakewood Ranch High School; anybody that I had acquainted at Manatee High School. But there was hardly anybody from manatee that went. It was all Southeast and Lakewood Ranch people that came. And Tony showed up at that one as well. 4370 INVESTIGATOR: And you haven't seen Tony in a social since January 2013? 4371 SAUER: Yes. 4372 4373 4374 Its 11:31 and this interview...... Let me just ask you this before we conclude the interview. The information that you've given me today, do you swear and attest the information you've given me is true to the best of your knowledge? 4375 SAUER: It is true to the best of my knowledge. 4376 Thank you. Page 166 of 181 4377 4378 4379 4380 4381 4382 4383 4384 4385 4386 4387 4388 4389 4390 4391 4392 4393 4394 4395 4396 4397 4398 4399 Rodenck Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12--2033--OP --|nIerVieW= August 15, 2013 Troy Pumphrey, Investigator and- Prior Student nf Manatee County INVESTIGATOR: Vfyou will, please state your name. INVESTIGATOR: Vm here with-/ho is a graduate of Manatee County schools. What year did you graduate? 2?10- INVESTIGATOR: we are with-s mam, state your name. INVESTIGATOR: _where are you employed? INVESTIGATOR: -. you came in yesterday because you were upset, unfortunately I was not here, but I asked you to come back in todayto discuss some 'rssues you had with regards to being placed from Manatee High Schoo\, your senior year to Horizon's which was an Alternative schooh V5 that right? 2 Page 167 of 181 4400 4401 4402 4403 4404 4405 4406 4407 4408 4409 4410 4411 4412 4413 4414 4415 4416 4417 4418 4419 4420 4421 4422 4423 4424 Roderick Frazier Case No. 12403370? Manatee High School INVESTIGATORZ If you would tell me what the Incident was or the circumstances In your mind that led upto you being transferred out of Manatee High School into Horizon's. -- The incident was I had told Kane and Officer Ordonez that Frazier was making comments to me and when Itold them that they told me theyu arrest me rot false allegations. I went home, I told my mom. My mom came out and she had a conference with them and my momma told them that she'll hire an attorney. And when they did that I was always into time out, every day. And then when I got tired of being in time out every day I would just not go to time out I'd go to first period and either Kane or Ms. Evelyn to come get me out of first period and take me to time out. INVESTIGATORI Who is Kane? he was the Assistant Principal. INVESTIGATOR: And why were they taking you out of class? Did the first period teacher not want you in class and asked them to place you in time out? No. INVESTIGATOR: Were you getting in trouble while yeu were in class? No, I wasn't gettmg in trouhlewhlle I was in class. INVESTIGATOR: So what was the reason for placing you in time out? Because made allegations on Frazier, INVESTIGATOR: Were you in time out prior to making those allegations against Frazier? Ves. Page 168 of 181 4425 4426 4427 4428 4429 4430 4431 4432 4433 4434 4435 4436 4437 4438 4439 4440 4441 4442 4443 4444 4445 4446 4447 4448 4449 4450 4451 4452 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School case No. 12403370? INVESTIGATOR: Ifyou were in time out before you made the allegations, what makes you think that the reason why you were in timeout after the allegations was as a result of Frazier? -Frazier always sent me there because of my dress code. what were the aliegatioris or what did Frazier do to make you feel that he was retaliating against you? When i first went to Juvenile Detention Center, he first worked at the Juvenile Detention center, we had to weariumpers. And he was like, alright now; you're looking good in thatlumper. And then when I told Mr. Garget and Mr. Garget had a conference with him and Mr. Garget is overtheJu\/enlle Detention center. And then when I got to Manatee I said something about it because I didn't feel comfortable being around Frazier. And that's when everything started about me going to time out. And when he'd see me, he'll write me up and he'd just notice me out of everybody. Ok, you need to go to timeout; I think your shorts are too short. INVESTIGATOR: What transpired to make you want to meet with the School Resource Officer? 'Because he was a Poiice Officer and I thought he could do something about it, but obviously not. INVESTIGATOR: Why were you meeting with the Police Officer? Why was I meeting with them? INVESTIGATOR: What was your reason for going tothe Police Officer? cause of Frazier. Every time I come, get off the bus, and I'd be in the cafeteria, of the cafeteria, 'Oh Rene, you need to go to time out.' why am i going to time out? "(our dress code.' Every day it was a dress code and if he does not write me up he'll take the referral to Ms. Evelyn, he'll write it and he'll have Ms. Evelyn sign it andthey'|i place me in time out. Page 169 of 181 Roderick Frazier case No. 12403370? Manatee High School 4453 INVESTIGATOR: But merely because Mr. Frazier is sending you to timeout ior dress code issues. 4454 What makes that an issue for police? 4455 What do you mean? 4-456 4457 INVESTIGATOR: I mean, if Mr. Frazier or anyone else was placing you in time out every day, and 4458 you didn't understand why, why was that an issue for the police as oppose to being an issue for 4459 the school administration? why dldn'! you go to the principal as opposed to going to the police 4460 because the police really only handle 4461 - we had a meeting with; it was Kane, Officer Ordonez and me. We had a meeting 4452 and we discussed it and it was still ongoing thing. Then Frazier, they said they'd talk to Frazier. I 4463 guess they talked to Frazier but it was still the same thing every morning. So I told them that 4454 going to get me out or first period every day because I'm not going to time out. 4465 4466 INVESTIGATOR: Did Mr. Frazier, did he ever touch you? 4467 He just made remarks, saying, 'You thick in those tights' or something like that 4452 But, other than touching me, no. 4469 4470 INVESTIGATOR: oicl Frazier say or do anything you thought was inappropriate? 4471 --Jh-huh. 4472 4473 INVESTIGATOR: What would he have done that would make you feel that way? 4474 --ike if I had something, because me, I don't like tennis shoes, I always wear heels 4475 to school or like pants and sometime shorts and if I walk by him, he'll just be like, luoklng at me 4476 and I'd be like Frazier, don't start. And then he'll be like alright you're fixing to go to time out 4477 with your big butt. Him and -ill be on the cart and I'd just go to first period. And 4478 then next thing you know, him or Kane would come escort me out of first period. Page 170 of 181 4479 4480 4481 4482 4483 4484 4485 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School INVESTIGATORI Who's -- He wason the football team and he always be with Frazier. Case No. ]2--2033r0P INVESTIGATOR: so hewas a football player? -: Uh-huh. INVESTIGATOR: You're saying Mr. Frazier will talk about your butt? 4486 -Uh-huh. 4487 4488 4489 4490 4491 4492 4493 4494 4495 4496 4497 INVESTIGATOR: And that made you feel uncomfortable? lies and then he had a discussion with |--bout me. INVESTIGATOR: What that discussion? When they was on the cart and he said about my butt, and then lsee Mike Blakely in the hallway and I was like what Frazier had said to you? And he was like, you heard what he said. Like that and I was like I don't like him. llust don't hke Frazier. He was like, why you don't like my dog? But he was very protective of Frazier. INVESTIGATOR: So Mr. Frazier, Coach Frazier made reference to your butt in front o_ 4498 'who was a student? 4499 4500 4501 4502 4503 SPARKMAN: Uh-huh. INVESTIGATOR: Was it that instant or was it that situation that made you go tothe School Resource Officer? 2 Page 171 of 181 4504 4505 4506 4507 4508 4509 4510 4511 4512 4513 4514 4515 4516 4517 4518 4519 4520 4521 4522 4523 4524 4525 4526 Roderlck Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12403370? INVESTIGATORI What did you Say to the School Resource Officer? -I told him that Frazier keeps saying comments to me, sexual comments to me about my butt and I just don't feel safe being around him. But, when I first got to Manatee I said something to them about it and nothing was done about it. INVESTIGATOR: when you first got to Manatee what did you come into Manatee High School? -- Z010. INVESTIGATOR: And when you first got to Manatee you saw Frazier? 'uhhuh. INVESTIGATORZ When you saw Frazier, you then went to the School Resource Officers? lwerlt to Kane. INVESTIGATORZ Vou went to Mr. Kane? Why did you go to Mr. Kane? -- Because tald him what happened at the Juvenile Detention Center. And then I guess he said something to Frazier and Frazier said something to -e and then it got around the whole school and that's when they came to me about the false allegations. INVESTIGATOR: Vou reported tothe School Resource Officer, that? Tell me again what you reported to the School Resource Officer? That he was making sexual comments towards me. Page 172 of 181 4527 4528 4529 4530 4531 4532 4533 4534 4535 4536 4537 4538 4539 4540 4541 4542 4543 4544 4545 4546 Roderlck Frazier Manatee High School Case No. ]2--2033s0P And what was the Resource Officer; what did he say? - That he'll have a talk with Frazier. INVESTIGATOR: And at some point did the School Resource Officer come back to talk to you? -I: no. INVESTIGATOR: So he never came back to talk to you? INVESTIGATOR: If he never came back to talk to you then how is it you said the Schooi Resource Officer told you that if you continue spreading lies, that you'd be arrested? --: it got around the that was probably the next week after that. Andthen he was ifyou keep making those aiiegations, we're going to arrest you on faise allegations. it didn't come back to me that same exact day when Itold him and that day he was supposed to have a discussion with him. That he was gonna come back and talk to me, but he never did. But when the rumor got around the school, that's when he wanna come and say, you keep on with the false allegations, gonna charge you with false allegations. INVESTIGATORJ What was the rumor? 4547 --he rumor wasthat i was saying, making rumors up about Frazier, talkto 4548 4549 4550 4551 4552 me and stuff. INVESTIGATOR: After speaking with the Resource Officer, did you speak to anyone from Administration? Coach Gulash, that seen everything for himself. Page 173 of 181 4553 4554 4555 4556 4557 4558 4559 4560 4561 4562 4563 4564 4565 4566 4567 4568 4569 4570 4571 4572 4573 4574 4575 4576 Roderick Frazier case No. 12--2033--OP Manatee Hugh School INVESTIGATOR: what do you mean saw everything for hlmself? _e when he told us that, I was being attacked by Frazier, he'll elther come get me and be Ilke-, just calm down. One day me and Frazier got into it lh the time out room. They had to take him out and bring Coach Gulash in. INVESTIGATOR: Tell be about the incident where you were arrested. Was there something that led up It? Did you know the young lady? 'lid not Vou did not know her at the time? jut INVESTIGATOR: What were the circumstances surrounding? -2 She was a Cheerleader at Manatee High the year before. She was on the Cheerleadlng Squad. Her slster was a Cheerleaderthat year, on the squad. And her dad rs a Police Officer, and good friends with Frazier. Whose good friends with Frazier; her and her dad? -: Uh--huh. What's her name? INVESTIGATOR: Do you know what department her father work at? --: He works for the Sherlff's Department. Page 174 of 181 4577 4578 4579 4580 4581 4582 4583 4584 4585 4586 4587 4588 4589 4590 4591 4592 4593 4594 4595 4596 4537 4598 4599 4600 4601 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School case No. 12403370? INVESTIGATOR: The police report states that she was in the car, she drove up to pick her sister up and that you approached her and you guys exchanged words. Tell me about that. - Me and my twin sister and my sisters best friend, was standing on the side of Manatee where the cars riders get picked up for the rides. It's the track field and then the side where the cars get picked up, the students get picked up at. She left from out of the gate, where the cheerleaders come, came by me, stopped in front her car, she got in my face and when she went to swing at me, I swung back. INVESTIGATOR: vour sister and another young lady were on the sidewalk and she came past in her car? -- uh-huh. INVESTIGATORZ And did she stop? --: She stopped, she got out ofthe car and then she was like, 'what you was saying to my sister?' And I was like just like: who is my twin sister, which is :She had pulled I away and was like just let it go. So when she walked around from my sister and tried to swing at me, I swung back at her. Did you tell that story to the police? V95- INVESTIGATORZ Who'd you tell It to? It was Officer Ordonez and another new officer that was training with him. The officer that wrote the report that arrested me. INVESTIGATORL Did either of those two officers see the altercation? Page 175 of 181 4602 4603 4504 4605 4506 4507 4508 4609 4610 4611 4512 4613 4614 4615 4616 4617 4518 4519 4520 4621 4622 4623 4524 4525 4626 4527 4528 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. 12--2033r0P -No they were nowhere around. There were no officers; no oody from Administration was around. And the first person that did run up was Coach Gulash. And he's the one that took me tothe front office and sat me down and asked me what happened. And told him and then that's when officer Ordonez and Kane and the officer that was in training with him, came and got me from out of Gu|ash's office. INVESTIGATOR: And what happened then? -- They sat me in that they were like we are fixing to arrest you. They didn't read me my rights; put me in handcuffs. I was like, if I'm going tolall, so my twin sister came up there and she was like why are y'all taking her out to lall? Y'all let -go, but when they came in orricer ordonez and Kane and them came in they were like we already arrested -. But they didn't think my sister was gonna come there. So my sister came up there and she was like why are y'all arresting her, why y'all got her in handcuffs? was like, they said they are to take me to jail. she was like; well why y'all are taking her to jail if Just let A. so they kept telling me, in front of my sister, that they didn't let -she was in the back of a police car. INVESTIGATOR: Was -rested? 2 "0 INVESTIGATOR: They had a number of witnesses to the incident. What happened with the court case? -he lawyer had thrown it Out. INVESTIGATORI They threw out the case? Uh--huh. INVESTIGATOR: Do you know Page 176 of 181 4629 4630 4631 4632 4633 4634 4635 4636 4637 4638 4639 4640 4641 4642 4643 4644 4645 4646 4647 4648 4649 4650 4651 4652 4653 4654 4655 4656 Roderick Frazier Manatee High School Case No. ]2--2033r0P INVESTIGATOR: Do you kno\_ was listed. is that your sister? Z: us. That's her cousin. INVESTIGATOR: Was she out there during the altercation? she was just running from the track field. And she was another cheerleader that was like Close to Frazier. INVESTIGATOR: Otherthan the initial conversation with the School Resource Officer, Officer Ordonez to tell him about Frazier making suggestions and talking about your butt, have you had any other Conversations with Officer Ordonez? s. The day that I was in time out, Mr. Frazier was the time out teacher and -came In and I was sitting there and --came in, which was one of the softball players and a volleyball player. And she came in and was talking about her lingerie party and when she came in, she talked about Frazier, you still coming to the lingerie party?' So he was like, 'yeah, you know I'm coming, I'll be there.' She was like; 'ok because I'm gonna have on my bunny ears and my lingerie.' So I was thinking i'd go speak with Mr. lt believe me. INVESTIGATOR: Who said, why do you keep with these allegations? Officer Ordonez. Page 177 of 181 Roderlck Frazler Case No. Manatee School 4557 INVESTIGATOR: vou were ln tlrne out, Mr. Framer; a young lady by the name of' 4658 comes into the t'Ime out room, Is that the room; in school suspension? 4659 -huh' 4660 4661 INVESTIGATOR: And you ever hear a conversation about lingerie? 4662 Uh--huh 4663 4554 INVESTIGATOR: Aboutthe student, -- Is --an adult ora student? 4665 She was a Student. 4666 4557 INVESTIGATOR: she's asking Framer If he's golng to a Imgene party. 4668 Uh--huh 4669 4670 INVESTIGATOR: Frazier sald yes; you hear it? 4671 hat was Valentine's Day the Valentine's Day weekend. 4672 4673 INVESTIGATOR: Vou hearthe conversatlon, you tell FrazIeryou're gonna tell on hlm. Orwhat 4574 end you say to Frazler? 4575 - Iasked him, can I go speak with Mr. Kane and he told me he, I couldn't. ljust got 4676 up out of my seat and I told him, ck I'll show you better than I can tell you And I walked out the 4577 door and he came aherme. when he came after me I told him don't put his hahdsoh me. so 4573 he called on his walkie tallue and called for backup. 4679 INVESTIGATOR: And who came? Page 178 of 181 Roderick Frazier Case No. ]2--2033r0P Manatee High School 4680 orricerordonez, the officer that was training with him. I didn't know his name; I 4681 4682 4683 4684 4685 4686 just know what he looks like and Gagnon. And Mr. Gagnon was the Principal? -Jh--huh. INVESTIGATORZ And where did they take you? 4687 Back to time out. 4688 4689 INVESTIGATOR: At what point did you get to tell them yaiitstoiy? 4590 --ide the hallway that I was in, getting ready to turn the corner to go to Kane's 4691 4692 4693 4694 4695 4696 4697 4698 4699 4700 4701 4702 4703 4704 4705 office. What exactly did you tell them? -- I told them that me inside the time our room talking about a lingerie party and I don't want to be in im and I don't feel comfortable being in there with him. And then Officer Oidonez said, 'ok Rene, you're still making false allegations.' I was like, 'I'm not making false allegations, I'm telling you whatjust happened.' He was like, 'just go back in time out and ifyou leave out of time out again, they were going to arrest me on false allegations.' That was everything they were threatening me with. So he walked me back in time out and said Frazier, here If you need anything call me. So i went back in there and when the bell rung I went to my next class because I wasn't fixing to sit in there with him and they came and got me out of my next class and out me back in timeout. INVESTIGATOR: Did you communicate directly to Mr. Gagnon or were you talking to all three of them? All three of them. Page 179 of 181 4706 4707 4708 4709 4710 4711 4712 4713 4714 4715 4716 4717 4718 Rodenck Frazier Manatee High School case No. ]2--2033r0P INVESTIGATOR: And those three adults would have been, Mr. Gagnon, orficer Ordonez, and his assistant? -: Veah' INVESTIGATOR: And an ofthistook place when, approximatew? Do you rememberthe month? Or Valentine's Day is? INVESTIGATORI February 2010? INVESTIGATOR: Is there anything e\se you'd rke to say? -No. Its 2:45 and I'm concluding the interview. Page 180 of 181